========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:55:38 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Nosema and Fumidil B Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jack: Some people even like Olives. Shim and other eminent entomologists agree with me. At least I have never lost colonies to mites in trying to prove my know-ledge - ask Bart. George ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:00:18 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Beating the bees to it! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In England there is a very nice beginners' manual entitled BEES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GARDEN, published fairly recently, and that includes an excellent artificial swarming procedure, well illustrated and simple. Sorry, but I can't recall the author's name. ABC & XYZ of BEE CULTURE by Root has an entry about artificial swarming, but it is not so descriptive. Basically you take the queen and a couple frames of brood (and some food) and put them at the center of a new hive. Any swarm-cells on these combs are removed during the transfer. This new hive goes on the stand of the original colony, and the excluder and original honey supers go on the new brood-chamber. The original brood chamber is then placed on a clean floor, on a stand to one side, and fed with sugar syrup. They rear a queen and are soon building up on their own. The two units can be run separately from then on, adding supers as required, or, in time they can be re-united into a double-brood hive if increase is not desired. This plan is pretty straightforward, and can be altered as required. Some advocates recommend moving the original brood chamber after several days so it sits on the opposite side of the orig. stand, diverting more of the foragers to the other hive. I have never tried this artificial swarming, but would be interested to hear about the results users have had. "Shook swarming" is not quite the same idea -- you end up shaking most of the colony onto a small brood chamber of foundation, which requires more of an educated guess, and its success is largely dependent on the weather during the first few weeks afterwards. IME anyway. Best wishes to all. JG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:18:45 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: Nosema and Fumidil B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear George, In order to verify whether or not it is convenient to treat with Fumidil-= B against Nosema you should feed some hives with medicated syrup and keep some untr= eated hives as controls. If at the time of starting the experiment both groups of hives = have about the same population, brood, stores and queens of the same age you will be mak= ing a fair assessment. My experience of the past five years feeding regularly Fumidi= l-B has been extremely rewarding. The problem with Nosema is that it is a disease that= doesn't kill hives, although it dramatically diminishes the overall performance of the= colony. As far as John Iannuzzi's statement, how can he know whether there is no = need to treat for Nosema if he never did so in the past 38 years. He can't provide vali= d comparative data. The same applies to a previous post from John where he says he neve= r requeened a hive in 38 years...because he sees no advantage in regular requeening. To= say something is better or worse you should have tried both and compare the respective = results, if he never requeened a hive how can he say it is not necessary to do it. Regards. Martin Braunstein Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar ---------- > From: John Iannuzzi > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Nosema and Fumidil B > Date: s=E1bado 21 de febrero de 1998 21:48 >=20 > Dear George, > I don't consider nosema a serious bee disease and have never treated > for it in 38 consecutive years of bkeeping, that is, I've NEVER used > fumagillin or its relatives. In short, as a hobby bkeeper, I'm not > interested in any type of medication, although I will admit that I > do use Apistan strips for Varroa mites. > Jack in Maryland >=20 > On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, George W Imirie wrote: >=20 > > John: I have long considered Nosema as the UNTREATED disease, becaus= e most > > beekeepers have no idea that their bees are sick with it. Much (too = much) has > > been made about the deposits of bee feces all over the front of a col= ony is > > THE indicator of nosema disease in the colony. Dysentery (diarrhea) = is a > > condition of nosema, BUT dysentery can be caused by many other things= other > > than nosema. It is too bad that Basil Furgala of Univ. of Minn. is d= ead, > > because he was a foremost authority on nosema. It has bee estimated = that 2/3 > > of all the bees in the U. S. have some nosema infestation present! T= WO > > THIRDS! WOW! I can't do much work or win any races when I am suffer= ing > > "loose bowels", and I reckon that goes for a honeybee too. There is = a field > > test for nosema: Using forceps, grab the extreme rear segment (site = of the > > stinger) of the abdomen of a live bee and carefully pull. > > You should be able to pull the rectum and ventriculus (mid-gut) from = the bee > > as a long connected unit. A HEALTHY ventriculus is straw-colored and= ridged > > with expandable intestinal muscles. The ventriculus of a nosema sick= bee is > > white, and swollen where the expandable muscular rings no longer show= . This > > can be done in the field WITHOUT a microscope. Get a bee inspector t= o > > demonstrate.. > > Nosema shortens the bee's life (less honey), it pre-ages a bee, so th= e bee > > might be a lousy nurse-bee or lousy comb builder, and it slows the qu= een's egg > > laying ability. In other words, a good beekeeper does not want nosem= a in his > > apiary. > > Nosema is easily controlled by the PROPER use of fumagillin, aka Fumi= dil-B. > > For an established colony, you feed in the FALL 2 gallons of 2:1 suga= r syrup > > containing 100mg. fumagillin per gallon (read the directions to know = the > > amount of Fumidil-B). I used the word PROPER above, because some bee= keepers > > have trouble following directions. You put Fumidil-B in 2:1 winter s= torage > > feed, so the bees are getting some medication all winter long into th= e spring, > > even including its use in larval feed of the spring's new bees. In M= aryland, > > I feed in November. > > It is suggested that all new package bees get a spring feeding of 1 g= allon of > > 1:1 sugar syrup containing 100mg. of fumagillin. > > Dr. Shimanuki strongly encourages treating for nosema as just an addi= tional > > way of preventing colony loss by parasitic mite syndrome (PMS). My b= ees are > > healthy because I follow "Doctor's orders". > > You asked about "extender" patties life. In 65 years I have never ev= er used > > Terra-mycin, because I want to KNOW if my bees have AFB before I cont= aminate > > my other apiaries, my friend's bees, my tools, my car, and all of my = 1000+ > > hive bodies. However, I know that Terramycin and water (dampness) do= not go > > hand-in-hand, so I would simply closely follow the label directions. = Ask a > > scientist who deals with Terramycin for a good answer. = George > > Imirie > > >=20 > **John Iannuzzi, Ph.D. > **38 years in apiculture > **12 hives of Italian honeybees > **At Historic Ellicott City, Maryland, 21042, U.S.A. (10 miles west of > Baltimore, Maryland) [9772 Old Annapolis Rd - 410 730 5279] > **"Forsooth there is some good in things evil > For bees extract sweetness from the weed" -- Bard of Avon > **Website: http://www.xmetric.com/honey > **Email: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [1jan981031est] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:16:51 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: McManus Subject: Re: Creamed Honey Comments: To: lacelle@sympatico.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Paul Lacelle > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:48 PM > > I've had lots of requests for creamed honey last year,can anyone help me > out on how to make it?Thanks. Hi Paul I'm new to the line so I hope this gets through. First I only go by what I have seen and heard in beekeeping , that's why I signed on to bee-l. I have been beekeeping about 7 yrs and now have 65 hives. Thanks to Roy Nettlebeck, I have learned alot. My understanding on creamed honey is this; you have to use some crystallized honey to agitate the honey when blending in the electric blender. I hope it works, I've got to try it myself. If there is another way, than maybe someone will let us know. Joe McManus mcmanus@budsters.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:11:34 -0800 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Nosema, patties, and other things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Bee-L colleagues: I hope this message doesn't cross the line for being too long for downloading. But I think I have observed by the questions asked to the list that many beginning beekeepers are in the audience. And some of the answers I read appear to be based on conjecture and the opinions of others rather than on the literature, data and experience. I would like to express a few ideas about how we approach Nosema and other issues regarding our bee colonies. It is often heard among beekeepers that they do not have any problem with Nosema, or Honey Bee Tracheal Mites (HBTM), or brood survivability, or even queens. But when they are asked if they had some bees checked in a laboratory for Nosema or HBTM, or if they measured brood survivability or queen quality, they say no. I suggest that without a lab diagnosis or conducting measurements, we cannot tell whether our bees have these maladies, or whether they do not. I base this opinion on the following grounds: a. I have dissected thousands of bees for Nosema. When I put the midgut into a petri dish I observe the difference between the color and distention or swelling of the midgut between the 25 midguts in the dish. I only rarely see a midgut that is so swollen that I can't see the rings around it or one that is whitish in color. Yet the samples will have between 4,000 spores (the lower detectable limit) and as high as 3,500,000 spores per bee. b. The four hives that had the 3.5 million spores were sampled in early July on Vashon Island in Puget Sound in western Washington. They were managed in an excellent manner, were five deep boxes high and full of bees. They each produced a 125 lb. crop that year. Was I surprised after all the stories I had heard about Nosema. c. When we were running 250+ samples of bees for HBTM in the lab in 1985 we checked all samples for Nosema. The samples were taken in early June as I recall. The Nosema levels in wet and rainy western WA samples didn't go over 150,000 spores per bee. Only three samples from commercial colonies showed Nosema in dry eastern WA . When I checked the location from which the samples came I found one apiary setting below the surrounding grade level in a gravel pit (very high chalkbrood levels too), another backed up against a southerly exposed granite rock bluff exposed to high temperatures day and night, and the third was in the bottom of a steep canyon which had a stream flowing through it. I suggested that the beekeeper move the apiary out of the gravel pit. He did so and the bees removed the chalkbrood in two days! The observed condition of the colonies - vitality, temperament, brood survival - improved rapidly. Nosema appears to be highest and have the most negative impact on queens and package bees following shipment, and colonies in the spring if one or more other maladies are affecting them. d. I have also cut thousands of thoracic disks of bees and put them in a potassium hydroxide solution to check for HBTM with a microscope. In many of these cases I have removed the trachea from surrounding muscle tissue and looked at it for mites with a 10x hand lens before putting them in the chemical bath. I found that often I didn't see mites with the hand lens but after clearing the muscle tissue for 4-6 hours in the solution I found between one and 10 mites per trachea. My observations suggest that low levels of mites may be missed with a hand lens. e. My experience has been that Nosema was highest in those colonies which appear not to build up rapidly in the spring, though HBTM causes the same symptoms nowadays. But it is also true that reduced brood survivability, poor nutrition, and unattractive queens may all occur at the same time in the hive resulting in a slow building colony in the spring. So now we have to measure several things before we can determine the cause of a symptom(s). See how complicated these issues get? f. Beekeepers often notice spotty brood patterns in their hives. I have checked brood survivability under these conditions and found that only 35 percent of the cells with eggs I had previously identified were dark eyed worker pupae 14 days later. I have checked larval survivability in colonies over a period of time pre and post feeding of Fumidil-B (regrettably without testing for Nosema). I found that pretreatment survivability ranged between 35 and 60 percent. Treatment of the six to eight frame splits in mid May consisted of gorging the bees with four feedings poured over the cluster (rate of one tsp. of Fumidil-B in one gallon of 1:1 syrup); twice one hour apart on a 60F day, and two subsequent gorgings ten days apart. Sufficient syrup was poured between the combs to moisten the bees without letting too much run out the hive entrance. Three weeks post treatment, larval survivability ranged between 85 and 95 percent. g. Beekeepers say their colonies look excellent following the use of unlabeled miticides. They don't know what the mite levels were before they treated. When the right questions are asked, it is often found that they lost a lot of colonies the previous fall even after treating (using Apistan) because they let the mite levels get too high. The remaining colonies contained young bees with low levels of mites. The next spring they use an unapproved chemical, and report the bees looked fine all year. Of course they would, because of very low mite levels in the spring (perhaps entirely unaffected by the miticide). Talk with them in the fall or the following spring and they report 30 to 40 percent losses. They will claim the miticide worked because that is what is being commonly reported, and they look around for some other thing upon which to blame the losses. You'd be surprised at the stories I've heard. h. Grease patties - TM or plain, powdered or granulated sugar. Many beekeepers assume that bees eat the patty. Others think that bees only remove the patty from the hive in response to hygienic behavior cues and in so doing they get some TM on their mouth parts which happens to get to larvae during feeding activities. To my knowledge neither of these have been proven by research. (But then there is so much research published that I can't possibly keep up with it all, and I don't have a formal research library at my disposal.) I do know a beekeeper who fed large amounts of cheap powdered sugar to a bee colony for winter stores instead of syrup or honey. The colony died in short order because powdered sugar contains cornstarch. Powdered sugar holds a patty together better than granulated sugar during comb manipulations. You simply cannot evaluate a colony's health by looking at the bees, though you may be able to make some observations about the colony's condition. That is why scientists insist that research colonies be essentially equal in all respects, that treated and control colonies be used, and accurate measurements be taken, before any deductions may be made about the success or failure of a treatment. But I will suggest further, that there are a significant number of things going on in the colony, like larval survivability, queen attractiveness, etc. that are also influencing the outcome of the treatments we apply. We attribute human behavior to honey bees, dogs, cats, and other animals. This is the source of many errant conclusions about what bees are doing and how they respond to what we are doing to them. It is also very import for beekeepers to check out the technical references available to them in their search for information about diseases and mites. Much has been published on the subject since 1983. Where we have problems is in determining appropriate bee and hive management techniques for various conditions. Here it is easy to get at least 11 answers from ten beekeepers on any question that is asked. Some answers are technically accurate but many are anecdotal observations or repetition of answers that have been passed around for several years and which are now much different than the original answer. Does this help you look and think differently about your observations, perceptions, and experience? Then I have obtained my goal in writing this. Best wishes all. James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com 509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:31:09 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Entances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have six hives at my home. Three have bottom entrances and three have 1 inch holes drilled next to the hand hole and also have bottom entrances. Of course the bees in the hives with only the bottom entrances use those, but the bees in the hives with the 1 inch holes all use them and not the bottom entrances. I have always been of the opinion that you give the bees a nice landing board. Given the oportunity to choose, the bees choose the little hole. Any comments? billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Creamed Honey I also hope that someone that has produced creamed honey responds to this...an awful lot is produced! In fact, in many European countries the only way honey is consumed is in creamed form. My understanding, and I hope someone will confirm or deny this, is that starting with crystallized honey will not work. I have always understood that to produce creamed honey one has to have a starter (much like to produce sourdough bread one needs a starter) and once that is put into extracted honey the remainder will cream. I understand that after the starter is added a 60 pound paid will cream in 2-3 weeks at 60 degrees F. and that it will take longer at higher temperatures. However, I didn't respond the first time as I don't know the ratio of starter to liquid honey. I do think I understand that to get a starter one only needs to buy a container of creamed honey. -----Original Message----- From: McManus To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Creamed Honey >---------- >> From: Paul Lacelle >> To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >> Subject: Re: Creamed Honey >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:48 PM >> >> I've had lots of requests for creamed honey last year,can anyone help me >> out on how to make it?Thanks. > > >Hi Paul > I'm new to the line so I hope this gets through. First I only go by what I >have seen and heard in beekeeping , that's why I signed on to bee-l. I have >been beekeeping about 7 yrs and now have 65 hives. Thanks to Roy >Nettlebeck, I have learned alot. > My understanding on creamed honey is this; you have to use some >crystallized honey to agitate the honey when blending in the electric >blender. I hope it works, I've got to try it myself. > If there is another way, than maybe someone will let us know. > >Joe McManus mcmanus@budsters.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:52:21 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Nosema, patties, and other things. Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com My understanding concerning Nosema is essentially the same as Mr. Bach's. I recall some university research with proper controls, etc. that determined (1) Nosema is endemic and only the worst cases are seen by the beekeeper; (2) While spring feeding will control the Nosema, it is usually "too late" to have a lot of effect on the honey crop (therefore beekeepers who have tried it feel it does not have much benefit) and, (3) fall feeding will increase the next year's honey crop (all things being equal) by truly astonishing amounts. I recall the increase at around 30%. All that said, I have to admit I usually only feed my nucs with Fumidil-B in the fall because my deeps are choked with honey. So...I think I know better, but don't do it anyways. Can anyone help with the research references concerning the effect of fall vrs spring feeding of Fumidil-D and both compared to not feeding at all? feeding -----Original Message----- From: James C Bach To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 2:15 PM Subject: Nosema, patties, and other things. >To Bee-L colleagues: > >I hope this message doesn't cross the line for being too long for >downloading. But I think I have observed by the questions asked to the >list that many beginning beekeepers are in the audience. And some of the >answers I read appear to be based on conjecture and the opinions of others >rather than on the literature, data and experience. > >I would like to express a few ideas about how we approach Nosema and other >issues regarding our bee colonies. It is often heard among beekeepers that >they do not have any problem with Nosema, or Honey Bee Tracheal Mites >(HBTM), or brood survivability, or even queens. But when they are asked if >they had some bees checked in a laboratory for Nosema or HBTM, or if they >measured brood survivability or queen quality, they say no. I suggest that >without a lab diagnosis or conducting measurements, we cannot tell whether >our bees have these maladies, or whether they do not. I base this opinion >on the following grounds: > >a. I have dissected thousands of bees for Nosema. When I put the midgut >into a petri dish I observe the difference between the color and distention >or swelling of the midgut between the 25 midguts in the dish. I only >rarely see a midgut that is so swollen that I can't see the rings around it >or one that is whitish in color. Yet the samples will have between 4,000 >spores (the lower detectable limit) and as high as 3,500,000 spores per >bee. > >b. The four hives that had the 3.5 million spores were sampled in early >July on Vashon Island in Puget Sound in western Washington. They were >managed in an excellent manner, were five deep boxes high and full of bees. > They each produced a 125 lb. crop that year. Was I surprised after all >the stories I had heard about Nosema. > >c. When we were running 250+ samples of bees for HBTM in the lab in 1985 >we checked all samples for Nosema. The samples were taken in early June as >I recall. The Nosema levels in wet and rainy western WA samples didn't go >over 150,000 spores per bee. Only three samples from commercial colonies >showed Nosema in dry eastern WA . When I checked the location from which >the samples came I found one apiary setting below the surrounding grade >level in a gravel pit (very high chalkbrood levels too), another backed up >against a southerly exposed granite rock bluff exposed to high temperatures >day and night, and the third was in the bottom of a steep canyon which had >a stream flowing through it. I suggested that the beekeeper move the >apiary out of the gravel pit. He did so and the bees removed the >chalkbrood in two days! The observed condition of the colonies - vitality, >temperament, brood survival - improved rapidly. Nosema appears to be >highest and have the most negative impact on queens and package bees >following shipment, and colonies in the spring if one or more other >maladies are affecting them. > >d. I have also cut thousands of thoracic disks of bees and put them in a >potassium hydroxide solution to check for HBTM with a microscope. In many >of these cases I have removed the trachea from surrounding muscle tissue >and looked at it for mites with a 10x hand lens before putting them in the >chemical bath. I found that often I didn't see mites with the hand lens >but after clearing the muscle tissue for 4-6 hours in the solution I found >between one and 10 mites per trachea. My observations suggest that low >levels of mites may be missed with a hand lens. > >e. My experience has been that Nosema was highest in those colonies which >appear not to build up rapidly in the spring, though HBTM causes the same >symptoms nowadays. But it is also true that reduced brood survivability, >poor nutrition, and unattractive queens may all occur at the same time in >the hive resulting in a slow building colony in the spring. So now we have >to measure several things before we can determine the cause of a >symptom(s). See how complicated these issues get? > >f. Beekeepers often notice spotty brood patterns in their hives. I have >checked brood survivability under these conditions and found that only 35 >percent of the cells with eggs I had previously identified were dark eyed >worker pupae 14 days later. I have checked larval survivability in >colonies over a period of time pre and post feeding of Fumidil-B >(regrettably without testing for Nosema). I found that pretreatment >survivability ranged between 35 and 60 percent. Treatment of the six to >eight frame splits in mid May consisted of gorging the bees with four >feedings poured over the cluster (rate of one tsp. of Fumidil-B in one >gallon of 1:1 syrup); twice one hour apart on a 60F day, and two subsequent >gorgings ten days apart. Sufficient syrup was poured between the combs to >moisten the bees without letting too much run out the hive entrance. >Three weeks post treatment, larval survivability ranged between 85 and 95 >percent. > >g. Beekeepers say their colonies look excellent following the use of >unlabeled miticides. They don't know what the mite levels were before they >treated. When the right questions are asked, it is often found that they >lost a lot of colonies the previous fall even after treating (using >Apistan) because they let the mite levels get too high. The remaining >colonies contained young bees with low levels of mites. The next spring >they use an unapproved chemical, and report the bees looked fine all year. >Of course they would, because of very low mite levels in the spring >(perhaps entirely unaffected by the miticide). Talk with them in the fall >or the following spring and they report 30 to 40 percent losses. They will >claim the miticide worked because that is what is being commonly reported, >and they look around for some other thing upon which to blame the losses. >You'd be surprised at the stories I've heard. > >h. Grease patties - TM or plain, powdered or granulated sugar. Many >beekeepers assume that bees eat the patty. Others think that bees only >remove the patty from the hive in response to hygienic behavior cues and in >so doing they get some TM on their mouth parts which happens to get to >larvae during feeding activities. To my knowledge neither of these have >been proven by research. (But then there is so much research published >that I can't possibly keep up with it all, and I don't have a formal >research library at my disposal.) I do know a beekeeper who fed large >amounts of cheap powdered sugar to a bee colony for winter stores instead >of syrup or honey. The colony died in short order because powdered sugar >contains cornstarch. Powdered sugar holds a patty together better than >granulated sugar during comb manipulations. > >You simply cannot evaluate a colony's health by looking at the bees, though >you may be able to make some observations about the colony's condition. >That is why scientists insist that research colonies be essentially equal >in all respects, that treated and control colonies be used, and accurate >measurements be taken, before any deductions may be made about the success >or failure of a treatment. But I will suggest further, that there are a >significant number of things going on in the colony, like larval >survivability, queen attractiveness, etc. that are also influencing the >outcome of the treatments we apply. > >We attribute human behavior to honey bees, dogs, cats, and other animals. >This is the source of many errant conclusions about what bees are doing and >how they respond to what we are doing to them. > >It is also very import for beekeepers to check out the technical references >available to them in their search for information about diseases and mites. > Much has been published on the subject since 1983. Where we have problems >is in determining appropriate bee and hive management techniques for >various conditions. Here it is easy to get at least 11 answers from ten >beekeepers on any question that is asked. Some answers are technically >accurate but many are anecdotal observations or repetition of answers that >have been passed around for several years and which are now much different >than the original answer. > >Does this help you look and think differently about your observations, >perceptions, and experience? Then I have obtained my goal in writing this. > >Best wishes all. > >James C. Bach >WSDA State Apiarist >Yakima WA >jbach@agr.wa.gov >jcbach@yvn.com >509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:36:44 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Nosema, patties, and other things. In-Reply-To: <19153796802175@yvn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Excellent post, all round. I hope we get some comments on these points. I hadn't planned to use much Fumidil this spring, but I am now reconsidering. I guess I have always known that -- if the touts are correct -- Fumidil could increase my bottom line by as much as double and reduce my workload in the process. However I have always remained unconvinced. I've used Fumidil a few times and seen no visible difference. I guess I expected to see a huge difference in cluster size or demeanor of the bees and to have trouble lifting supers onto the truck in years where I have used Fumigillan, but I have always been disappointed. But, as I always have said, if there were a 10% or even 20% (maybe more) increase in performance, it would not be obvious without methods of accurate measurement and comparison. Of course it is a lot of trouble to do the measurement, and therefore it just does not get done, and we have to go by grosser and more subjective judgement. > ...Treatment of the six to eight frame splits in mid May consisted of > gorging the bees with four feedings poured over the cluster (rate of one > tsp. of Fumidil-B in one gallon of 1:1 syrup); twice one hour apart on a > 60F day, and two subsequent gorgings ten days apart. Sufficient syrup > was poured between the combs to moisten the bees without letting too much > run out the hive entrance... Your mention of drenching of bees with Fumidil treated syrup interests me greatly. I have heard of this being practised by several of my neighbours, but haven't done it, because it is contrary to the recommendations, and I have had no real way of knowing if it works. So, I would be very interested to know if there are any studies evaluating this treatment method. I know others put Fumigillan into patties and dust it with sugar like oxytet, but I have remained a sceptic. To me using unapproved and untested methods seems like sacrificing virgins: something to do that is expensive and disrupting, but the results of which on the corn crop are difficult to ascertain. What has discouraged me in using Fumidil according to directions is the high cost and the lack of visible results so a drech method hasd appeal since so little of the drug is used. As you point out, results are not necessarily visible, so I haven't known what to think. ...Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Allen -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:42:37 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Entances In-Reply-To: <199802221929.OAA12171@eaglenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I have always been of the opinion that you give the bees a nice landing > board. Given the oportunity to choose, the bees choose the little hole. Astute observation. Why do we people always try to make bees do things our way? Check out http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Spring/mgmt.htm and http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/Spring.htm for pictures of my answers to the question. After years of trying to follow the books, I'm now trying to work with my bees not against them. I do what they ask when I can. We don't scrape ladder comb any more and now regard bee space as more of a general principle than a *law* of bee behaviour. Bees know how to be bees without our assistance. We just facilitate and help deal with the things that are beyond their reach -- if we are smart -- and profit to the extent that we help more than hinder. FWIW Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:53:57 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ivan McGill Subject: Re: Creamed Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >---------- >> From: Paul Lacelle >> To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >> Subject: Re: Creamed Honey >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:48 PM >> >> I've had lots of requests for creamed honey last year,can anyone help me >> out on how to make it?Thanks. > > >Hi Paul > I'm new to the line so I hope this gets through. First I only go >by what I >have seen and heard in beekeeping , that's why I signed on to bee-l. I have >been beekeeping about 7 yrs and now have 65 hives. Thanks to Roy >Nettlebeck, I have learned alot. > My understanding on creamed honey is this; you have to use some >crystallized honey to agitate the honey when blending in the electric >blender. I hope it works, I've got to try it myself. > If there is another way, than maybe someone will let us know. > >Joe McManus mcmanus@budsters.com Hi Paul: This works for me. Warm the honey to make sure that there is no crystalized honey. What I started out with is 10 lbs. Buy or if you have some fine creamed honey, put some in your mouth about the same as tasting wine. If you don't feel any granulars mix 2 lbs. into 10 lbs. of room temperature honey. If the honey is to warm it will only melt. Mix with spatula of wooden spool or whatever. When the honey looks thoroughly mixed making sure you got all the way through to the bottom. Set in a cool place approx. 50 - 55 F. For approx. 2 weeks or longer. Some honey does not crystalized quickly so is best to test a small batch first. Hope this is of some help. If any more info contact me direct. I don't do much because most of my customers like liquid. Ivan Prince George, B.C. drone@computime.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:59:56 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: McManus Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Lloyd, Like I said; I'm stilling learning. So any and all help is of worth. I would like to see answers to the creamed honey question from a few more beekeepers who have produced this fine product. Apparently we all could be made the wiser. Joe McManus ---------- > From: Lloyd Spear > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 11:36 AM > > I also hope that someone that has produced creamed honey responds to > this...an awful lot is produced! In fact, in many European countries the > only way honey is consumed is in creamed form. > My understanding, and I hope someone will confirm or deny this, is that > starting with crystallized honey will not work. I have always understood > that to produce creamed honey one has to have a starter (much like to > produce sourdough bread one needs a starter) and once that is put into > extracted honey the remainder will cream. I understand that after the > starter is added a 60 pound paid will cream in 2-3 weeks at 60 degrees F. > and that it will take longer at higher temperatures. However, I didn't > respond the first time as I don't know the ratio of starter to liquid honey. > I do think I understand that to get a starter one only needs to buy a > container of creamed honey. > -----Original Message----- > From: McManus > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > > > >---------- > >> From: Paul Lacelle > >> To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > >> Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:48 PM > >> > >> I've had lots of requests for creamed honey last year,can anyone help me > >> out on how to make it?Thanks. > > > > > >Hi Paul > > I'm new to the line so I hope this gets through. First I only go by > what I > >have seen and heard in beekeeping , that's why I signed on to bee-l. I have > >been beekeeping about 7 yrs and now have 65 hives. Thanks to Roy > >Nettlebeck, I have learned alot. > > My understanding on creamed honey is this; you have to use some > >crystallized honey to agitate the honey when blending in the electric > >blender. I hope it works, I've got to try it myself. > > If there is another way, than maybe someone will let us know. > > > >Joe McManus mcmanus@budsters.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:18:48 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Norman CotÊ" Subject: Re: Creamed Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For creamed honey you need what's called a "Mother". The mother being one tablespoon of creamed honey added to about a two pound jar of liquid honey. Place in a dark room or closet and check it in about a week. The temp. should be around 60 degrees F. Norm beekeeperc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:28:47 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: Empty comb stimulus In-Reply-To: <04110110612324@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <04110110612324@systronix.net>, Excerpts from BEE-L writes > If you >are into comb manipulation you can even leave six frames of honey in the >center of the first super to keep the queen down and rotate the four >outside frames up regularly and put four empty combs in the first super for >the bees to fill. Does this limit the pollen stored over the brood nest to just a few combs? Sorry I missed you when you came round with Mary Fisher about three years ago, James. -- Tom Speight South Lakes Cumbria UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: dfcain@erols.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dennis F. Cain" Subject: Re: TESTS Comments: To: gmc@vci.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Beeman: Hooray for Beeman who has come forward with a suggestion that a valid experimental approach be made to the issue of mineral oil as a miticide. Beeman's suggestion (I'm extending it a bit) that a specific protocol be written exactly describing the procedure to be employed in testing one or several alternative mineral oil application methods which could be tried in comparison with untreated controls (or better yet, controls that are treated with the best standardized treatment available today (Apistan)). In this way, many beekeepers could join in the testing procedures to determine, with scientific validity, just how effective mineral oil is as a spray, as poured onto paper towels on top of the frames, as oil poured on top of the frames, as soaked paper towels at the entranceway, or any of a dozen alternatives. Someone (or better a very small committee of knowledgeable people) needs to write a concise description of what is believed to be the best application method (or two) and then make this written protocol available to all beekeepers who are willing to make a commitment to faithfully follow the protocol for some specific period of time. Control hives could be set up in the same apiaries. Perhaps enough beekeepers will join to give results which are statistically meaningful, and prove once and for all whether (and how) mineral oil is effective as a miticide. Anecdotal results obtained by small numbers of individuals with small numbers of observations are not only usually meaningless, they are dangerous in that they tend to separate people into camps of 'believers' and 'non-believers'. This is the procedure used by the drug industry, FDA and NIH to establish the efficacy and ultimately the treatment method for the drugs on the legal market in the US today. Dennis Cain Rockville MD dfcain@erols.com beeman wrote: > > Hi all, I have several different beeyards, and i am willing to try > each > persons method of appling FGMO to some of my hives at each location, > if > everyone that is using FGMO will send me email telling me exactly how > they are applying it and how often the apply it and the time of day. > please send it to gmc@vci.net I will try each method and send in the > results, i figure if someone doesn't find an answer soon we all may > lose > our bees, so i am willing to try different treatments, i will maintain > a > control group or a couple in each location. please send your > application > methods ASAP! THANKS in advance!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:08:20 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick The Beeman Subject: Paul Lacelle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please Private Email Me and I have THE DICE PROCESS FOR CREAMED HONEY I will send it your way! SO who ever wants it send me private! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:03:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Entances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bill: Do bee trees have a nice landing board? Or those in your neighbor's house who enter through a crack in the soffit? This is one of many examples of ANTHROPOMORPHISM. George ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:52:04 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Creamed Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joe; I replied to Paul and told him that he could purchase a written instruction by Dr. Dyce, the "discoverer" of creamed honey methods back in 1927 for $1.00. Call Brushy Mountain Bee Farm at 1-800-233-7929 (1-800-BEESWAX). But it would appear that YOU need some help. ALL honey crystallizes (except Tupelo) depending on the ratio of Glucose to Fructose. Hence some honeys take a lot longer to make into creamed honey than others. The EASY WAY: Find a creamed honey that you like for its crystal consistency. It should be almost like butter, with no grittiness or sandiness. THIS honey will be your STARTER and you will use 10% of it. Mix (by hand, an electric mixer will insert air into the mix, so it must be mixed by HAND) a pound of your selected starter creamed honey with 9 pounds of your honey, and sit it aside at a temperature of 57 degrees (temperature is extremely important). If your honey was a quick crystallizer (high in Glucose), you will have creamed honey made in about 10-14 days. If your honey was slow to crystallize (high in fructose), you might not get creamed honey for 20-30 days. The closer you can keep the temperature to 57 Degrees, the better. I had a refrigerator repairman change my thermostat and freon amount until my "creamed honey refrigerator" cycles between 55 and 59 I sell it for $4.50 per pound. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:08:08 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Channell Subject: Re: Paul Lacelle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:08 PM 2/22/98 EST, you wrote: >Please Private Email Me and I have THE DICE PROCESS FOR CREAMED HONEY >I will send it your way! SO who ever wants it send me private! --------- Thanks for the offer. Send it to me also. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:30:05 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Package Bees vs "Nucs" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In defense of package bees - and I have installed many packages - 1. I often get a modest crop from a two pound package. 2. Package bees can be sent US mail across state lines. Not so in America with nucs. You have to go get them, and many northerners don't have a local source of nucs. 3. If you are concerned about the 3-week lag until the first brood are hatched, consider (for those who have existing colonies) borrowing a frame of brood from one of an established colony and giving it to the package bees.. This works quite well. Larry Krengel Marengo, Illinois USA Home of Dr. C. C. Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:42:35 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Package Bees vs "Nucs" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Palmer wrote: >The package may then supercede the queen, blaming her for the unbalance >within the hive. This can be corrected by giving the colony a frame of >emerging brood two weeks after installation of the package. Hi Michael: I am curious as to why you chose the two week time delay for the addition of a brood frame. I would think that the sooner one added the brood the sooner one would have young bees with active brood food and wax glands. As I have over two hundred overwintered colonies for donors, and two hundred packages coming I have considerable interest in your reply. Young bees present from brood frames given at the time of hiving the packages should still be present at the two week time to correct age imbalances. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:57:34 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: McManus Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George The more one will ask the more one learns. Until today I though what I was told in the beginning, was to good to be true. But the response has been terrific not only for Paul (who asked first) but for all. Thank you. Joe ---------- > From: George W Imirie > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 4:52 PM > > Joe; I replied to Paul and told him that he could purchase a written > instruction by Dr. Dyce, the "discoverer" of creamed honey methods back in > 1927 for $1.00. > Call Brushy Mountain Bee Farm at 1-800-233-7929 (1-800-BEESWAX). > But it would appear that YOU need some help. > ALL honey crystallizes (except Tupelo) depending on the ratio of Glucose to > Fructose. Hence some honeys take a lot longer to make into creamed honey than > others. > The EASY WAY: Find a creamed honey that you like for its crystal consistency. > It should be almost like butter, with no grittiness or sandiness. THIS honey > will be your STARTER and you will use 10% of it. Mix (by hand, an electric > mixer will insert air into the mix, so it must be mixed by HAND) a pound of > your selected starter creamed honey with 9 pounds of your honey, and sit it > aside at a temperature of 57 degrees (temperature is extremely important). If > your honey was a quick crystallizer (high in Glucose), you will have creamed > honey made in about 10-14 days. If your honey was slow to crystallize (high > in fructose), you might not get creamed honey for 20-30 days. The closer you > can keep the temperature to 57 Degrees, the better. I had a refrigerator > repairman change my thermostat and freon amount until my "creamed honey > refrigerator" cycles between 55 and 59 > I sell it for $4.50 per pound. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:07:00 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Creamed Honey In-Reply-To: <23394057313653@internode.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Date sent: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:38:49 -0500 From: Subject: Output of your job "allend" To: Allen Dick > search BEE-L creamed -> 63 matches. Hey, Guys, A *simple* search on the subject 'creamed' showed up *63* matches (including the recent exchange). Has *anyone* bothered to look at them? Some look really good... Allen You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute several words for "key phrase" above. and use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase. Single words do not need quotes. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:18:18 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Affect of weather & climatic on raising of bees In-Reply-To: <2c5d7629.34ed994f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Several years ago I went to check some of my bees at the back of a friend's farm. It was a warm day in late February. I was shocked because I couldn't find the hives. I noticed bees flying out of a hole in the snow and realized that I was standing on top of my hives. The hives were covered with 6 feet of drifted snow. The snow was melted around the hives leaving an air space about one foot wider than the hive. All the hives survived that winter. Wind is a far bigger problem for honey bees and snow can help protect the hives when the trees in your windbreak are defoliated. Located in Caedon Ontario, Canada (80 west 43 45' north) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Creamed Honey In-Reply-To: <03fd85250191628UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I used to make creamed honey by mixing 10% creamed honey with 90% liquid. >It always worked. However a friend suggested freezing liquid honey to >produce creamed honey. I now fill 2-4 litre plastic tubs from the storage >tank and place them in the deep freezer for use through the winter. It >almost always comes out smooth and creamy. I don't know why it doesn't >work the odd time it is liquid when it thaws. Its so easy that I no >longer consider mixing 9/1 which can be messy. Located in Caledon (Forks of the Credit) Ontario, Canada (80 west 43 45' north) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: Horses Ken, One of the old locations we used to have the man had a goat . He used to tie it up in differant places to keep the grass down. Worked fine till it was tied up to close to my 20 hives. He came home that night to find his goat covered with bees and crying. It went on to goat heaven. Hum,it was a male and they smell bad if you're not used to it.(I never have) That may have had somthing to do with it. Take Care and GBY-John in Homestead- -also at Jesus Christ Is The Only Answer,Joshua24:15 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:36:17 -0800 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Empty comb - pollen storage, hive entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Speight, I am sorry to have missed meeting you. I have many fond memories of the beekeepers I met in the Kingdom. What a wonderful time. And Mary, what a wonderful lady. Cumbria, what beautiful country! Tom you wondered if my suggestion for comb manipulation with honey in the middle of the first honey super limits the pollen stored over the brood nest. Yes, and intentionally so, though I sometimes wonder if we can really cause bees to do anything. In reality bees that are not behaviorly impaired store the majority of their pollen below and to the sides of the brood rearing area (80%) with pollen arches over the top of the brood rearing area (15%) and a few cells scattered through the brood rearing area (5%) which is used up feeding larvae in the vicinity. Bees should not store pollen in the super above the brood nest (2 deeps or 3 westerns) unless forced to do so by the way beekeepers manipulate combs. The storage of pollen above the brood nest is one of the 16 aberrant behaviors we see in bees nowadays that we did not see 15 years ago, except on rare occasions. In fact I have seen bees put three to four solid combs of pollen directly above the brood rearing area even though they had an empty deep or so below the brood nest. I've also seen bees store a full deep of honey below the brood nest when they had four westerns of open comb above the brood nest. This leads right into the recent comments on hive entrances and how bees use them. Years ago I removed a lot of bee colonies from building walls and trees. In the majority of cases the hive entrance was above the brood rearing area and below the honey storage area. The only exceptions I observed were in broken off snag trees which only had a top entrance, or in building walls where the entrance hole was close to the top of a wall. If the bees had access to holes with equal amounts of open space above and below the entrance hole, they always put their brood nest below the entrance. This has obvious implications about their need to control air movement through the brood nest to preserve heat, and the need to ripen honey at the top of the nest. When I use wood wrapped queen excluders I cut a 5/16 x 1.25 in. entrance above the excluder grid in the center of the front of the excluder. If I use metal wrapped excluders, and sometimes with wood, I just set the excluder back from the front of the hive by 1.25 in. This allows bees to readily enter the brood nest or super around the end of the excluder without going through the excluder. Once the bees put honey in the center six combs of the first super I remove the excluder but set the honey supers back one inch to achieve the entrance. I have closed down the bottom entrance to one inch or so, or I now use a Bovard rack, more commonly called a slatted rack (the same principle as a Killian bottom board) between the bottom brood nest box and the bottom board (hive floor). This allows the bees to keep the brood nest warmer and approximates their preference in nature. They react favorably by not removing the comb from the bottom of the bottom combs. They will also raise swarm cells along the bottom bars of the bottom combs. I must be warm enough for them down there. The above bee behavior is why I have never favored holes in the front of hive boxes below the hand holes. In fact I have seen numerous times that the bees would only put brood to the back of the brood nest in such cases. In some situations I suspected that their behavior was caused by strong prevailing winds at the front of the hive, but I have also seen it occcur in the fall with the wind coming from the side of hives. At times bees will reduce the hole size with propolis even down to one bee space. The described behavior also has implications for colony cluster size, laying space for the queen, and ultimate colony size at the beginning of the honey flow. James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com 509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: Solar melters sterilize frames, NOT! Comments: cc: SYSAM@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Aaron, sorry 'bout that,I apologize for the missinformation. It was somthing mentioned at one of our local meetings in the past that wasn't questioned and take as fact to the point that a number of folks had been doing it and are still. Do you know thw proper temp. to sterilize vs. the temp average in a solar melter? Take Care and GBY-John in Homestead- -also at Jesus Christ Is The Only Answer,Joshua24:15 On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:38:21 EST Aaron Morris writes: >John M Thorp wrote: > >"Get a solar wax melter going. The frames will not only be clean but >sterile." > >For the record, the temperatures in a solar melter are NOT sufficient >to >sterilize frames. It's just not so. > >Aaron Morris > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:39:32 -0800 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Gorging bees with Fumidil-B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen: I first heard about the gorging technique from Roy Thurber a beekeeper who had an insatiable desire for knowledge about bees. He showed me some research from New Zealand about 20 years ago in which the data indicated that by gorging bees three times ten days apart with enough syrup to get the bees all wet each time (about four cups for 12 combs of bees in the spring = 12 cups) the Nosema level in a colony was reduced the same amount as if a gallon (16 cups) had been fed using a feeder. The theory is that when you moisten the bees they all lick each other off to clean up the mess you created and they each ingest some of the syrup before they off load it into the cells in the brood nest. If they each ingest some Fumidil-B it will clean them up. As I recall, the paper contained a graph showing Nosema build up beginning in November, with low levels occuring again in late April. The graph was in the shape of a bell shaped curve. When Fumidil-B was fed in the fall the curve was much lower, and when only spring gorging is done the bell curve line drops off much more quickly. My observations of treated and untreated colonies in wet springs is that treated colonies have more bees (2-5 combs) by April than untreated colonies. In warm dryer springs not as much difference can be seen. I have generally recommended at least spring feeding here, just because fed colonies often, though not always, show a greater vitality and more bees, even if I don't know the Nosema levels. Here we can get a private lab to check a bee sample for $25.00. The sample would consist of about 50 bees from a side pollen comb from seven to ten hives randomly selected in the apiary. Apiaries in similar climatic areas would be considered the same and samples would be taken to represent the obviously different climatic areas. Ideally, colonies sampled would represent at least five percent of the colonies owned. I talked with Dr. Shimanuki once about feeding Fumidil-B in patties and dust. As I recall he was not infavor of it. He said that the drug would not get to the maximum number of bees in the colony. From observed bee behavior it follows too that dry substances often get removed from the hive. You really want Fumidil-B to get into the digestive system. Syrup is the best way to achieve this, especially in the spring and in dearth periods. Let's talk economics. If Fumidil-B costs $85 for 9.5 grams and is to be used on 50 colonies, then Fumidil costs $8.95 per gram. 9.5 grams divided by 50 = .19 gr. per hive. $8.95 x .19 = $1.70 per hive. Now if feeding Fumidil-B results in just two more combs of bees, or two pounds of bees (weighing approximately one pound per comb at 55F.), then what is the cost of a two pound package? And if you want a rapid start in the spring, is a $1.70 investment worth the return? The question looks different from that perspective doesn't it? Now I agree that cash flow is a different issue. James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com 509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:47:10 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Horses Hi All There have been a number of interesting posts on this. I have heard some things here in South Africa that may also be of interest. (My bees are of a similar temperament to EHB's under most situations) A horse is a big animal that can sweat. Bees dont like that smell. If a bee stings a horse, alarm pheremone and others get trapped in the hair, rather than blowing away as they would on a smooth skinned animal. So the horse retains it's 'marker' for longer. Horses are usually dark, and noisy and produce a lot of respiratory gases. They are also herbivores and produce a lot of waste gasses. Many many horses die in South Africa every year because people tether then near hives. If somebody disturbs a hive, the horses will suffer. Worse though are cows. I had a rather embarrasing incident at a farm recently when I set up ten hives near a dairy. I moved the hives in at night and came back the next day after bee oreintation time (11.00) to take braces of the frames. After I had done this I sat down to eat lunch under the flowering gum tree grove which made me bring the bees in the first place. Three cows came up to the biggest hive and the firts one sniffed the top super. The next cow walked directly into the first cow, so that it nosed the super of the hive. The first cow got stung, nocked over the hive next to it and all hell broke loose. All three cows got stung. These are prize dairy cows producing 30 Litres of milk a day. That night I moved the bees away again. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:29:54 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Empty comb stimulus Hi All > > Another interesting thing is that it has been scientifically > > proven that the foraging urge of bees is in direct relation to the > > amount of empty comb available to the bees. (within reason) Allen Wrote: > > I've read some on this -- and yet I find this to be a generality > that I have trouble understanding. I don't doubt its truth, I just > wonder about its universality. I believe the original research was done in temperate regions, but have noticed that my bees here in South Africa respond to similar stimuli. > spring and early summer. Not only does the extra comb prevent > swarming to some extent and allow room for sudden flows that are > unexpected by a beekeeper, but there does actually seem to be a > stimulant effect on bee buildup. I have also noticed this effect on buildup, and have noticed also that often when bees have extra space they will move a lot of honey out of the nest area into the supers. This seems only to apply during hot periods. > noticeable in the late summer in temperate regions: if the amount of > space above the brood nest is excessive, the bees withdraw to the > brood section -- especially if excluders are used, and are unable to > occupy the entire hive. They also have to heat this area. I have been told by a number of beekeepers in this area that they find their best results are to leave three supers on the hives for the warm months and then to cut down to one shallow for the winter months with regular inspection. This is also partly because the winter months produce honey flows that crystalize very fast. > If bees are unable to continuously occupy an area of a hive they > seem reluctant to fill it permanently with honey. This is one And they are also prone to being robbed if they cannot occupy the space. My main observation here has been that the greatest stimulus to bees is to pull three supers and replace with spun ones. The increase in hive productivity is most probably not due to increased space as much as it is due to a sudden burst in brood rearing caused by the bees having surplus energy after cleaning up the supers. Also if any pollen had been hidden in the supers by honey, it will now be exposed and the bees can use it for rearing?? Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:12:08 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to producing creamed honey I sometimes have the problem that after some weeks I get white, irregular structures in my creamed honey. I don't know the English expression for this phenomenon. In German it is called "blooming of honey". The honey is quite as good as before. It only looks less attractive to the consumers. As Green in 1951 found out it is caused by small bubbles of air in the honey. Does anybody know a recipe to avoid this phenomenon? Sincerely Reimund Schuberth _________________________________ Beekeeper from Germany (Bavaria) Queen Rearing of Carniolan Bees Insemination Station _________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:59:59 +0100 Reply-To: drs@kulmbach.baynet.de Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Dr. Reimund Schuberth" Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Lloyd, > > I also hope that someone that has produced creamed honey responds to > this...an awful lot is produced! In fact, in many European countries the > only way honey is consumed is in creamed form. That's not true to my opinion. We produce also some sorts of honey which hardly cristllize such as honey of false acacia or fir-tree. Of course there is a lot of honey consumed in the creamed form. By the way that depends on the great amounts of blossom honey we are producing here. This honey especially that of fruit trees cristallizes very hard with large sugar-cristalls and within some weeks. It isn't easy to handle (hard to get out of the glasses and containers). So it is very difficult to get consumers for this kind of honey. Since several years it has become the done thing here to produce creamed honey with rape honey as a starter. > My understanding, and I hope someone will confirm or deny this, is that > starting with crystallized honey will not work. I have always understood > that to produce creamed honey one has to have a starter (much like to > produce sourdough bread one needs a starter) and once that is put into > extracted honey the remainder will cream. To my opinion that is a very comfortable way to produce creamed honey. But you can get also without a starter when you stir the honey during the time of cristallizing in order to demage the larger cristals of sugar. Some beekeeper here use this production method stiring the cristalizing honey twice a day. > I understand that after the > starter is added a 60 pound paid will cream in 2-3 weeks at 60 degrees F. > and that it will take longer at higher temperatures. That's correct to my opionion. According to studies of Townsend (1961/1970) the best temperatur for cristallizing honey is about 58 degrees F. Surely it will take longer at higher and even lower temperatures. If you choose a temperature too high or low it won't cristallize at all. > However, I didn't > respond the first time as I don't know the ratio of starter to liquid honey. > I do think I understand that to get a starter one only needs to buy a > container of creamed honey. > -----Original Message----- > From: McManus > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > > >---------- > >> From: Paul Lacelle > >> To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > >> Subject: Re: Creamed Honey > >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 4:48 PM > >> > >> I've had lots of requests for creamed honey last year,can anyone help me > >> out on how to make it?Thanks. > > > > > >Hi Paul > > I'm new to the line so I hope this gets through. First I only go by > what I > >have seen and heard in beekeeping , that's why I signed on to bee-l. I have > >been beekeeping about 7 yrs and now have 65 hives. Thanks to Roy > >Nettlebeck, I have learned alot. > > My understanding on creamed honey is this; you have to use some > >crystallized honey to agitate the honey when blending in the electric > >blender. I hope it works, I've got to try it myself. > > If there is another way, than maybe someone will let us know. > > > >Joe McManus mcmanus@budsters.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:55:03 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Beating the bees to it! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I am very grateful indeed for the very helpful replies I got to the above request for assistance. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Package Bees vs "Nucs" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You got me there Stan. Don't really know why to wait. Gives the new queen time to get laying? Stan Sandler wrote: > Michael Palmer wrote: > > >The package may then supercede the queen, blaming her for the unbalance > >within the hive. This can be corrected by giving the colony a frame of > >emerging brood two weeks after installation of the package. > > Hi Michael: > > I am curious as to why you chose the two week time delay for the addition of > a brood frame. I would think that the sooner one added the brood the sooner > one would have young bees with active brood food and wax glands. > > As I have over two hundred overwintered colonies for donors, and two hundred > packages coming I have considerable interest in your reply. Young bees > present from brood frames given at the time of hiving the packages should > still be present at the two week time to correct age imbalances. > > Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:11:07 -0600 Reply-To: landrith@telepath.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Kel Subject: How to capture "wild hive"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a new beekeeper in Oklahoma and need some advice. My first hive swarmed while I was on vacation and until yesterday I had no idea where they went. Now I know that they built a hive in the top of a nearby tree among the branches. If my memory is correct, the hive is where a old plastic wal-mart sack had become entangled during a storm last spring. The hive is fairly large, aprox. the size of a man's torso. How should I proceed? I can get an Orchard ladder underneath, but there are no sturdy branches nearby & the hive is aprox. 18 feet off the ground. Thanks in advance, Kel Landrith ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:39:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: Solar melters sterilize frames, NOT! Comments: cc: SYSAM@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron, sorry 'bout that,I apologize for the missinformation. It was somthing mentioned at one of our local meetings in the past that wasn't questioned and take as fact to the point that a number of folks had been doing it and are still. Do you know thw proper temp. to sterilize vs. the temp average in a solar melter? Take Care and GBY-John in Homestead-=86-also at Jesus Christ Is The Only Answer,Joshua24:15 On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:38:21 EST Aaron Morris writes: >John M Thorp wrote: > >"Get a solar wax melter going. The frames will not only be clean but >sterile." > >For the record, the temperatures in a solar melter are NOT sufficient=20 >to >sterilize frames. It's just not so. > >Aaron Morris > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:59:39 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Nosema, patties, and other things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, Excellent post. I know I have probably had EFB, Chalkbrood, tracheal mites, and noxema and never saw it in my hives. Might even have had sackbrood. All of these the bees can usually handle, especially early in the honey season, and there usually is nothing around to show it happened, even with chalkbrood! I was very suprised to see how prevelant EFB is in the blueberry fields. Since I have blueberries near the hives, I know I probably had EFB but never saw it since as soon as the blueberry season is over, generally so is the EFB. As far as seeing problems with your bees, I thought 20 pounds per hive in my area in Maine was normal until I changed to George I's methods and now expect 50. So not seeing problems does not mean they are not there. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME James C Bach wrote in part: > You simply cannot evaluate a colony's health by looking at the bees, though > you may be able to make some observations about the colony's condition. > That is why scientists insist that research colonies be essentially equal > in all respects, that treated and control colonies be used, and accurate > measurements be taken, before any deductions may be made about the success > or failure of a treatment. But I will suggest further, that there are a > significant number of things going on in the colony, like larval > survivability, queen attractiveness, etc. that are also influencing the > outcome of the treatments we apply. > Does this help you look and think differently about your observations, > perceptions, and experience? Then I have obtained my goal in writing this. > > Best wishes all. > > James C. Bach > WSDA State Apiarist > Yakima WA > jbach@agr.wa.gov > jcbach@yvn.com > 509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:00:25 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ed Costanza Subject: Re: Paul Lacelle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Please send recipe for creamed honey. Thank you for this help. Ed Costanza ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:06:39 -0800 Reply-To: mister-t@clinic.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beating the bees to it! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel, I did something very similar to what you wrote but found that if you take the queenless hive and put it over the queen right hive with double screen in between, and let the top one raise a new queen, then move the old queens hive to a new location, it seems to work better. I also might have to redistribute brood to even things out, to make the moved hive stronger because all the field bees will go to the new queen's hive. Hope you followed that. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Joel Govostes wrote: > In England there is a very nice beginners' manual entitled BEES AT THE > BOTTOM OF THE GARDEN, published fairly recently, and that includes an > excellent artificial swarming procedure, well illustrated and simple. > Sorry, but I can't recall the author's name. > > ABC & XYZ of BEE CULTURE by Root has an entry about artificial swarming, > but it is not so descriptive. > > Basically you take the queen and a couple frames of brood (and some food) > and put them at the center of a new hive. Any swarm-cells on these combs > are removed during the transfer. This new hive goes on the stand of the > original colony, and the excluder and original honey supers go on the new > brood-chamber. > > The original brood chamber is then placed on a clean floor, on a stand to > one side, and fed with sugar syrup. They rear a queen and are soon > building up on their own. The two units can be run separately from then > on, adding supers as required, or, in time they can be re-united into a > double-brood hive if increase is not desired. > > This plan is pretty straightforward, and can be altered as required. Some > advocates recommend moving the original brood chamber after several days so > it sits on the opposite side of the orig. stand, diverting more of the > foragers to the other hive. > > I have never tried this artificial swarming, but would be interested to > hear about the results users have had. > > "Shook swarming" is not quite the same idea -- you end up shaking most of > the colony onto a small brood chamber of foundation, which requires more of > an educated guess, and its success is largely dependent on the weather > during the first few weeks afterwards. IME anyway. Best > wishes to all. JG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Augustus C.Skamarycz" Subject: Re: Paul Lacelle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:08 PM 2/22/98 EST, you wrote: >Please Private Email Me and I have THE DICE PROCESS FOR CREAMED HONEY >I will send it your way! SO who ever wants it send me private! > Dyce is the correct Spelling ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Searching the List On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:07:00 -0600 Allen Dick writes: >A *simple* search on the subject 'creamed' showed up *63* matches >(including the recent exchange). Has *anyone* bothered to look at >them? >Some look really good... > >Allen This is in reference to my earlier request for Bee Trivia. If you recall, Allen suggested that I do a search so as not to overload the List with material that has been previously discussed at some length. I must "confess" that I have been on this List for some time and have never used this Search method. At any rate, I used it and LO & BEHOLD, there was precisely what I was looking for. I was amazed at how EASY this Search method works. Why am I wasting more baddwith to tell you this....To urge you to TRY IT ! YOU"LL LOVE IT ! So SAVE Allen's message on how to do a search for future use, it really does work in a very fast and efficient manner!! Al, <"Mailto: awneedham@juno.com" > Scituate,Massachusetts,USA The Beehive-Educational Honey Bee Site Visit Ye Olde Honey Bee Book Shoppe http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:08:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Excessive quoting, REALLY EXCESSIVE!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi folks, I imagine everyone is getting tired of proper use lectures, but I can't help myself. I've spent the last FOUR HOURS(!) catching up on maintenance and reading the weekend traffic. Part of that time was spent analyzing the ratio of quoted to new material for Saturday and Sunday. Results: 30% - that's an entire THIRD! of what was posted this weekend was quoted material of what had already been posted. ONE THIRD! For the sake of brievity I'll keep this tirade short: Please folks, keep quotes of previous material to a minimum! If you personally don't know how to respond to a post without appending the entire post to your response, well LEARN of DON'T RESPOND!!! I hope you'll learn because I'd hate to see responses go unmade. Please, the volume on this list has become excessive!!! The content is rich, but requoting material just increases the noise to signal ratio. Aaron Morris - thinking you can quote me on this one! :-/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: How to capture "wild hive"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kel I had a similar problem last year when I was called to pick up a swarm. I borrowed a neighbours tree trimmer....a scissor-like cutting device on a long pole, and operated by means of a spring-loaded blade, pulleys and a rope running down to the other end. You will need to somehow figure out some way of holding the branch where the swarm/colony is while you cut it so it doesn't fall and risk killing the queen and angering the bees excessively. When I cut the branch, I just let it fall, thinking that the whole swarm would fall onto the white sheet I had positioned directly under the swarm. Of course I was wrong and they just took flight and settled on an even *higher* branch.... Good luck, Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 10 colonies and counting -----Original Message----- From: Kel To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: February 23, 1998 8:18 AM Subject: How to capture "wild hive"? >I am a new beekeeper in Oklahoma and need some advice. My first hive >swarmed while I was on vacation and until yesterday I had no idea where >they went. Now I know that they built a hive in the top of a nearby >tree among the branches. If my memory is correct, the hive is where a >old plastic wal-mart sack had become entangled during a storm last >spring. The hive is fairly large, aprox. the size of a man's torso. > >How should I proceed? I can get an Orchard ladder underneath, but there >are no sturdy branches nearby & the hive is aprox. 18 feet off the >ground. > >Thanks in advance, > >Kel Landrith > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:51:14 -0800 Reply-To: gpape@sonneheerdt.nl Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: gpape Organization: Sonneheerdt-Ermelo Subject: Capturing "wild hives". MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kell. Last summer I got a fonecall to capture a swarm in a comparable location. I tackled them with a skep upside down tied to a aluminium ladder. 1- Try to shake them loose and hope for the best. 2- Then lower the skep and tie it in the normal upright position and place it near the old location of the swarm to capture the rest of the bees. 3- Lower the whole bunch of bees VERY CAREFULLY as soon as it becomes dark. WEAR FULL PROTECTION. You are the one to receive it all :-). Lots of succes, Gerhard Pape, Ermelo gpape@sonneheerdt.nl ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ron Taylor Subject: New Bee Keeping Supply Company Hi folks: We in South Carolina are pleased to announce a new bee operation. Kurt Herbst is the operator of Circle B Ranch in Cottageville SC. He is in the process of developing a catalog. He is currently making making wood ware. He had a full page ad in both Bee Culture and Amerrican Bee Journal. He will be at South Carolina State Beekeepers Spring meeting in Cayce on Saturday, March 7. He has a web page. His address is www.circle-b.com. Check his site out. Ron Taylor, President of the South Carolina State Beekeepers. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:06:16 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Wanna catch a swarm? Try searching the archives!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Both Allen Dick and Al Needham know that a single line of mail sent to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: search bee-l catching swarms will return to subscribed members the following: > search bee-l catching swarms -> 13 matches. Item # Date Time Recs Subject ------ ---- ---- ---- ------- 000517 92/01/24 10:56 293 JANUARY ISSUE OF APIS 004526 95/05/02 10:19 179 Re: Capturing a Swarm 004528 95/05/02 06:35 111 Re: Capturing a Swarm 007811 96/03/23 18:49 24 Catching Swarms at great heights 007812 96/03/23 20:56 24 Re: Catching Swarms at great heights 007815 96/03/24 15:39 35 Re: Catching Swarms at great heights 007816 96/03/24 10:28 60 Re: Catching Swarms at great heights 007832 96/03/25 12:37 49 Re: Catching Swarms at great heights 007910 96/03/29 09:48 18 Re: Catching Swarms at great heights 010669 96/09/08 17:30 96 Where are the AHB these days? 011611 96/10/31 00:04 112 It's Raining Here in Central Calif 015868 97/05/22 07:00 18 Re: Thanks to all, the swarm is back home 015878 97/05/22 09:41 30 Re: Thanks to all, the swarm is back home To order a copy of these postings, send the following command: GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868 15878 .... Remainder left out for brevity, but the point is that searching BEE-L archives really is THAT EASY and gives GREAT RESULTS! THAT EASY! GREAT RESULTS! Available at a BEE-L near you! Aaron Morris - thinking I'm starting to sound like a commercial! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:02:21 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Sanford Subject: pollinisation avec filets au dessus des vergers Comments: To: entomo-l@listserv.uoguelph.ca, polpal-l@listserv.uoguelph.ca Comments: cc: cl.ivert@wanadoo.fr MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I saw a good many anti hail nets in orchards in France, which prevent hail from damaging flowers and fruits in orchards during thunderstorms. Mr. Ivert would like to communicate with anyone having experience with these particularly with reference to apples. Tom Sanford Extension Beekeeping Specialist University of Florida >Return-path: >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:43:58 +0100 >From: Claude Ivert >Subject: pollinisation avec filets au dessus des vergers >To: mts@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU > > >Je voudrais savoir si quelqu'un a deja pollinise des pommiers avec >audessus des filets antigrele.Avez vous eu des problemes ? >-- >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Claude IVERT Aix en Provence FRANCE > APICULTEUR > http://perso.wanadoo.fr/cl.ivert >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ============================================================================== Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Extension Apiculturist, University of Florida Bldg. 970, P.O. Box 110620, Gainesville, FL 32611-0620 Ph. 352/392-1801 ext. 143 Fax 352/392-0190 E-mail: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Publisher of the APIS newsletter: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm To electronically subscribe, send the following to listserv@lists.ufl.edu: subscribe Apis-L First Name Last Name =============================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: ventilation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We talk alot about providing ventilation for our hives. How do bees living in their most basic habitat, a hollow tree, provide ventilation? Assuming the hole, oft times small, is located in the middle, between the brood area and the honey storage area at the top? billy bee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Re: ventilation. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In a hollow tree the bees can "chew" ventilation holes where ever they want. If you have ever tried to trap a hive out of a tree you will notice the bees inside will chew new holes to get out since they notice that all bees leaving the main hole do not come back. These holes are easily filled with propolis when the bees don't want the ventilation. Richard Barnes rbarnes@halnet.com At 02:24 PM 2/23/98 -0500, you wrote: >We talk alot about providing ventilation for our hives. > >How do bees living in their most basic habitat, a hollow tree, > provide ventilation? Assuming the hole, oft times small, >is located in the middle, between the brood area and the honey storage area >at the top? > >billy bee > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: aarcher Subject: GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD4066.FE2AC6A0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4066.FE2AC6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868 15878 ------=_NextPart_000_01BD4066.FE2AC6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 = 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868
15878

------=_NextPart_000_01BD4066.FE2AC6A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:57:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BD407C.39E0D440" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BD407C.39E0D440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Requests for posts have to be sent to: LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Not the list. -----Original Message----- From: aarcher To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: February 23, 1998 4:31 PM Subject: GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 = 10669 11611 15868 =20 =20 GETPOST BEE-L 517 4526 4528 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 = 11611 15868 15878 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BD407C.39E0D440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Requests for posts have to be sent = to:=20 LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU=
 
Not the list.
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 aarcher <aarcher@wnmc.net>
To: = BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU = <BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU>Date:=20 February 23, 1998 4:31 PM
Subject: GETPOST BEE-L 517 = 4526 4528=20 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611 15868

GETPOST BEE-L 517 = 4526 4528=20 7811-7812 7815-7816 7832 7910 10669 11611=20 15868
15878

------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BD407C.39E0D440-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:01:40 +0100 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Re: ventilation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Bartlett wrote: > > We talk alot about providing ventilation for our hives. > > How do bees living in their most basic habitat, a hollow tree, > provide ventilation? Assuming the hole, oft times small, > is located in the middle, between the brood area and the honey storage area > at the top? The other slant that has always interested me is the whole debate about whether hives should be in full sun or shaded. When you think about how the "wild" bees would have there nests, I'm not sure how you draw parallels from it as bees have used wall cavities for hives (which I would tend to think stay on the warmer side due to exposure) and also tree cavities which I'm sure would tend to be cool. Maybe the placement of hives has more to do with the beekeepers preference than the bees? Would a cooler hive require less need for ventilation? I moved a few of my hives last fall into the brush where they are shaded all the time. Still have the others out where they will receive full sun till about 3:00 PM. One commercial beekeeper in my area keeps a lot of his hives in small clearings within a grove of trees where they are shaded all the time when another commercial beekeeper keeps his hives out in the sun. Wouldn't this have an effect on ventilation needs? -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:09:24 -0800 Reply-To: richard@centex.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Richard Harkey Organization: Harkey's Honey Subject: Re: "MO" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got in on this late, so which mite does MO work on or does it do both? And how and what rate is it applied? This is the first I have heard of MO for treatment. Is there a commercial beekeeper using MO? - - - Richard ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:47:07 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, in response to Aarron Morris email to bee-l, i kinda see your point i get tired of rereading the first question or statement but sometimes it helps to read the whole thing over again. besides isn't this a discussion group?? sure people are going to ramble on and on about the same thing from time to time, but hey this a discussion group, right?? and if it's going to get to the point to where someone is going to read everything before it gets posted and only post what they wanna post, that's not fair!! if it comes to that then remove me from the group!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:10:23 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i have another question, why is bee-l limited to only fifthy (50) post per day if they're 641 members?? since spring is almost here (KY) suppose that more and more people have questions and ideas and they post them here on bee-l, if it's on friday and more than 50 people post ideas,questions, or answers then we are stuck!! right or wrong?? then on monday we get 99 emails, and spend most of the afternoon/night going through it all?? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:08:48 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Nick The Beeman Subject: Re: Paul Lacelle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-23 10:28:55 EST, you write: << >Please Private Email Me and I have THE DICE PROCESS FOR CREAMED HONEY >I will send it your way! SO who ever wants it send me private! > Dyce is the correct Spelling >> Yes you are Correct and I do see my error Thank you for bringing that to my attention! Augustus C.Skamarycz thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:24:37 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Swarm Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I am reading up on this subject and I am grateful for the assistance I obtained recently. I am a beginner beekeeper and I am trying to understand some of the theory of this highly complex activity. Some questions come to mind, and I thought I would put then out for comment. Many methods of swarm control, consist of the beekeeper taking action when the swarming procedures have been initiated by the bees. Am I correct in saying, that by using queen cells raised in response to the swarming impulse, that we are perpetuating the swarming propensity, when what we should be doing is lessening it?. If this be the case, then the Artificial Swarming method of Swarm Control is really only creating a demand for itself. Conversely, does this not make the Demaree or the Snelgrove or the Jenter systems superior, since the queens which are raised are not raised in response to the swarming impulse (or are they).? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:36:21 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Sterrett Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Re: How to capture "wild hive"? In-Reply-To: <34F0784B.1F2B@telepath.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MimeMultipartBoundary" --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Re: Hiving an established colony. Remember that you don't _have_ to do anything --MimeMultipartBoundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: Tim Sterrett Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Organization: Westtown School Subject: Re: How to capture "wild hive"? In-Reply-To: <34F0784B.1F2B@telepath.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="MimeMultipartBoundary" --MimeMultipartBoundary Content-type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Re: Hiving an established colony. Remember that you don't _have_ to do anything. (Sorry, I touched the wrong two keys and sent this prematurely.) Some swarms cannot be hived. Some probably should not be hived beca= use of danger to the beekeeper (and not from the bees=21) Tim 18CourierTim Sterrett Westtown, (Southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA tim_sterrett=40westtown.edu10Geneva= --MimeMultipartBoundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:52:56 -0800 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: More Dead Bees, Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris and Janet and others who responded to this post, The symptom you report indicates dysentary. Dysentary is simply diahrea and can be caused by poor quality winter stores, inadequate winter flight, nosema, other infections. It is also associated with prolonged damp conditions and or tracheal mites. My personal observation is that nosema has increased since the arrival of tracheal mites and that it is now a serious problem, at least here in NY. As I've said before here on Bee-L, I think more beekeepers should be sending bee samples in for nosema spore counts. The "do an experiment method" may be fun but in the long run expensive, just sent bees to the lab and you'll know if your bees are infected. The scientists, notably Dr. Furgla, have already proved fumagillin works. Remember folks, winter losses are just the tip on the nosema iceberg. Nosema levels peak in mid to late summer in the north. Nosema reduces the length of a bees life by up to 33%. What is a bee doing during the last 33% of life? Ever see hives that look normal except that they were not making as much honey as other colonies? Of course there are other factors but nosema is one. And it has rescently been identified as an important factor of queen performance. As someone else mentioned, equipment can be contaminated with nosema spores. This can be rectified with a good medication program using fumaggillin. Dr. Furgala recomended a 2 gal. treatment each fall and 1 gal. each spring as a MINIMUM treatment to control nosema. Although expensive it is more cost effective that replacing equipment especially if you depend on an income from your bees. Regarding the "Pulling a bee apart and looking at the mid gut?" test for nosema, I've found this is reliable only when the result is positive. Often when the result is negative a spore count indicates a high infection rate. Hope this helps, Vince PS to Mr Iannuzzi- how much data supports your opinion of nosema's importance? Chris and Janet Sauer wrote: > Since we're on the subject of dying bees... I've just lost a hive I started last spring. It has long streaks of brown feces at the entrance indicating Nosema. I treated the colony with fumidil in the spring and fall last year with the correct amounts mixed in syrup. Is it still possible for Nosema to kill the hive? Another interesting sight: when I pulled apart the top brood chamber yesterday, there were dead bees in the comb as if they were starving, but there was capped and uncapped stores on the same comb. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:52:29 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Re: Laidlaw & Page: Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Larry, Add me to your list for Laidlaw's book. I will mail you my check for 27.50 today. George ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Swarm Control In-Reply-To: <199802240024.AAA02494@mail.iol.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Tom - People can be highly opinionated on this - some claim that using swarm cells or even hiving swarms is perpetuating the swarming tendency. Just as you mentioned. However, it may be helpful to bear in mind that swarming is the natural method of colony reproduction, and happens anyway. Asking why bees swarm is sort-of like asking why birds migrate. It's the species' modus operandi. Now, granted, some stocks will swarm less than others, and some will swarm more readily. It depends partially on the weather, the forage available, colony growth cycle in a certain area, age of queen, genetics etc. It would very difficult to tease these elements apart in order to make unequivocal comparisions. Queen cells constructed under the swarming impulse can certainly yield excellent queens. For one, the colony is very strong, so the q. cells are large and well-provisioned. The queens are being produced in a time of plenty, & when there are LOTS of nurse-bees available to nourish them. This is not always the case when cells are built and queens reared under an emergency impulse. When it comes to hiving stray swarms, some people claim you shouldn't even go after them. The reasoning is, once again, that they are bees that have "proven" their propensity to swarm, and so are not valuble. I disagree here, for a couple of reasons. First, any swarm is likely to have come from a strong colony, that has overwintered well. Just having stocks that are good at overwintering is worth quite a bit! That is a desirable trait, for sure. Also, they became strong despite the mites, presumably, so *may have some level of resistance to disease. (I.e., they might have come from an untreated or feral colony.) There is often concern that stray swarms might carry AFB or other diseases, but chances are a diseased parent colony woudn't have built up strong enough to swarm in the first place. I wouldn't (& don't) hesitate to utilize swarm-cells or hive a swarm. You can always cull out a poor stock later anyway, should you find that a resulting queen/colony happens to possess some really undesirable trait. After the past dozen years or so of heavy losses, IMO any bees that are still alive are valuble! What say? >Hi All > >I am reading up on this subject and I am grateful for the assistance I >obtained recently. I am a beginner beekeeper and I am trying to understand >some of the theory of this highly complex activity. Some questions come to >mind, and I thought I would put then out for comment. > >Many methods of swarm control, consist of the beekeeper taking action when >the swarming procedures have been initiated by the bees. Am I correct in >saying, that by using queen cells raised in response to the swarming >impulse, that we are perpetuating the swarming propensity, when what we >should be doing is lessening it?. If this be the case, then the Artificial >Swarming method of Swarm Control is really only creating a demand for itself. > >Conversely, does this not make the Demaree or the Snelgrove or the Jenter >systems superior, since the queens which are raised are not raised in >response to the swarming impulse (or are they).? > > >Sincerely >Tom Barrett >49 South Park >Foxrock >Dublin 18 >Ireland > >e mail cssl@iol.ie >Tel + 353 1 289 5269 >Fax + 353 1 289 9940 > >Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North >Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:00:37 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: roy barton Subject: Help settle a friendly dispute. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just had a local health food store order some Royal Jelly for me since I just got some very convincing information from the Internet regarding its wonderful properties for human health. We keep our own bees and this year we are going to collect our own pollen for our personal consumption. My husband can understand that one can easily obtain pollen and get propolis but thinks that the collection of actual Royal Jelly may not be 100% true Royal Jelly and is possibly just a marketing scam. Can anyone out there provide us with some information that will prove or disprove his assumption. How does one know if a company is collecting the "real thing? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :+) Vickie Barton ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:37:47 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alden P. Marshall" Subject: Re: mites & bites On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:55:34 -0600 "Excerpts from BEE-L" writes: >Reply-to: Discussion of Bee Biology >From: Robert e butcher > >.. I believe if you use the >smaller >comb your bees won't be so irritated, then you can use less smoke. I'm >changing over to it also. several commercial companies are already >mass >producing foundation for themselves. > Calm bees on small cells and irritated bees on larger cells? Even if they made them? Oh well this is a thread someone else is going to have to work on. I only have 150 colonies and I can honestly say I use very little smoke on any of them, I visit them every 20 days for drone frame sampling and 'T' shirt, cutoffs and veil are uniform of the day. If by chance a nasty hive develops I have an easier way to tame it than change the cell size. >Ed and Dee Lusby were published in Bee Culture(Jan.1998 vol.126 #1) I am glad that bee culture had the courage to cover this story, it's easy to print things that will likely be popular with the constuancy. I will say, just about anything is possible but for one I have to have something that makes a little sense to me before I can get stimulated or warm up to an idea. I'm still waiting on this one. But keep it coming. >Mills for the 4.9 comb are being made by Tom Ind. in El Cajon, Cali. >for >about $850.00 There are several mills out there already in use. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:59:02 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Alden P. Marshall" Subject: An Oiler but not MO I spend so darn much time reading this list, into wee hours of the morning that I seldom take the time to comment. Well I was an oil (vegie)user on all my 150 colonies last year as well as a grease patty user for many years. With all this posting of oil and experiments I think I have a good idea of how I will proceed with my experiments this summer. I have 3 or 4 yards that I believe will make good candidates, about 12 hives each with nearly identical environment and group separation capability. I will start off with all strip treated colonies from previous late fall. Incidently I don't put my strips in until real late, almost wonder if I need them at all but don't have the courage to do otherwise. The only trouble is I won't really be a part of the MO Gang. I had such good results with my veg oil I want to try some controlled experiments with it. I am not fully in agreement with statements that these things are foreign to the bee hive. Probably the only foreign thing, at least with veg oil is the quantity. Oils are certainly bought back to the hive with pollen and honey. Perhaps the bees would prosper with some supplement? On occasion I have seen them standing around the oil saturated napkin licking it. I haven't the slightest idea why, do they digest it or take and spit it out? While inspecting drone pupa for mites I have seen dead mites on them, very few to be sure, but then again there are few mites to find. Have seen mites entombed in cells of honey, did the bees drown the mites or put the nectar in on dead mites? I am currently of the opinion (unscientific) that MO and Veg oil will give similar results and IF the bees like more oil in their diet maybe Veg oil is better. I don't for a minute expect to come to much of a conclusion on many of these questions. I do know that if my colonies continue to remain robust and essentially mite free for a few years then perhaps some of the other unanswered questions will get answered. I have a laptop now to take to the yards, I'm looking for a good spreadsheet or database program, anyone have one to share? Good luck to all you other experimenters. Alden Marshall B-Line Apiaries Hudson, NH 03051 Busybee9@Juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:51:05 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ted F. Wout" Subject: Re: ventilation. Bill Bartlett wrote: > We talk alot about providing ventilation for our hives. > How do bees living in their most basic habitat, a hollow tree, > provide ventilation? Assuming the hole, oft times small, > is located in the middle, between the brood area and the honey storage area > at the top? Barry Birkey wrote: >The other slant that has always interested me is the whole debate about >whether hives should be in full sun or shaded. When you think about how >the "wild" bees would have there nests, I'm not sure how you draw >parallels from it as bees have used wall cavities for hives (which I >would tend to think stay on the warmer side due to exposure) and also >tree cavities which I'm sure would tend to be cool It's great to be back on the list. I've missed it but been to busy to particpate or even read posts. I think we need to remeber that bees in the wild don't normally make as much honey as properly managed hives. At least that's what I've been told. My experience agrees with wild hives that I have removed from trees and houses, there wasn't much honey to retrieve from the wild hive. I think wild hives have smaller inner hive dimensions and will swarm when things get tight. Managed bees produce abundant honey and have to dry it all. Their swarming behavior is controlled by expanding the size of the hive and other swarm prevention measures. We trade procreation for honey production. Ted Wout twout@juno.com Red Oak, TX, USA (about 20 miles south of Dallas) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:30:54 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Hiving wilds swarms Hi All In the last year or so I have done just over a hundred bee removals from established swarms, of which I managed to keep about 20 with their original queens. (Swarms were much more successful) When a wild swarm is disturbed, the first thing that happens is that the queen, who is usually in full laying condition and therefore does not fly easily, runs away somewhere. If she can be disturbed and caused to swarm when the hive has brood, she is not worth the effort and should be replaced, because a good queen cannot fly easily. With removals, the best philosophy (IMO) is to look at a wild swarm as a source of free bees. If they have a good trait, get the queen, but on the whole wild queens are inferior to reared queens. What I usually do is to get as many bees as possible and then just place them very gently in front of a hive that has a good queen at night, while smoking that hive to bits. The new bees (without queen), who should have been fed before adding, just run into the hive. If one wants the queen, it is better to actually add her to another hive that had a laying queen that was no good. This way they are less likely to swarm/abscond. So to get a swarm of a branch in a tree my advice would be to give it a bit of smoke, then gently cut the combs of shaking them into a nearby box. ONce all the combs are of, put the box below the branch and give the branch a good wack. The bee cluster will fall into the box, and soon they will orientate on the box. Blow the rest of the bees of the branch, or keep brushing them with a bee brush. Wiping some vinegar on the branch also helps mask the queen pheremone on the branch so that they will not keep going back to that spot (can be a pain). If you cause too much a fuss, the bees will chew up the queen - only they know why. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:49:49 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Drones for ever Hi All Have just been doing some literature searching and found a useful site - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov - check out the pub med section. Basically a searchable online library with a lot of stuff on bees. As an example it is generally accepted that mitochondrial DNA (the DNA in the cells 'powerhouse') is passed on through the maternal line only (all Mitochondria in the sperm cell are left behind at fertilisation). Well this paper proves that once again with our little funnybees there are no rules!! Curr Genet 1993 Dec;24(6):539-543 Transfer of paternal mitochondrial DNA during fertilization of honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) eggs. Meusel MS, Moritz RF Department of Zoology and Entomology, University of Natal, Republic of South Africa. Strict maternal inheritance of mitochondrial (mt) DNA is believed to be the rule in most eukaryotic organisms because of exclusion of paternal mitochondria from the egg cytoplasm during fertilization. In honeybees, polyspermic fertilization occurs, and many spermatozoa, including their mitochondria-rich flagellum, can completely penetrate the egg, thus allowing for a possibly high paternal leakage. In order to identify paternal mtDNA in honeybee eggs, restriction fragment length polymorphisms (RFLP) of different subspecies were used. Total DNA extracts of different developmental stages of an Apis mellifera carnica x Apis mellifera capensis hybrid brood were tested with a radioactively-labelled diagnostic mtDNA probe. Densitograms of autoradiographs indicated that the male contribution represents up to 27% of the total mitochondrial DNA in the fertilized eggs 12 h after oviposition. In subsequent developmental stages the portion of paternal mtDNA slowly decreased until hatching of the larvae when only traces were found. Although rapid disintegration of paternal mtDNA does not occur, the initially high paternal mitochondrial contribution is not maintained in the adult animal. And before anybody labels this BS not US (Useful science) remember that one of the ways honeybees have been tested for africanization in the US has been to look at Mitochondrial DNA. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:01:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Quoting and 50 message limit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Hi all, in response to Aaron Morris email to bee-l, i kinda see your > point i get tired of rereading the first question or statement but > sometimes it helps to read the whole thing over again. besides isn't > this a discussion group??... Yes, this is a discussion group but again as in theatre (spelling for our British subscribers :) there's more going on than what's on stage. Consider raw volume - volume in downloads, volume in digests, volume in logs, volume in archives! It's more than just electrons traversing wires or residing on storage mediums, it's real time and real money! To respond to your query I have removed over 50% of what you posted, I have quoted what was necessary and removed the rest. I am not decreeing THOUT SHALL NOT REQUOTE!, I'm requesting and reminding that reposts of previously posted material adds VOLUMES to the transmissions and logs and lessens the discussions. > i have another question, why is bee-l limited to only fifthy (50) > post per day if they're 641 members?? Well first, 50 is the LISTSERV default. I didn't set it, it came that way. Second, a limit is a way to implement some sort of control on the volume of traffic. The unfortunate part is that there is no "value judgement" made on the posts, all posts are treated equally whether it's Malcolm Sanford posting the latest issue of Apis (IMO the best material posted to BEE-L) or if it's Joe Schmoe posting "I like APIS too!". As Dr. Seus would put it: "It really doesn't matter at all, a post is a post no matter how small!" For the record, I have started bumping the THRESHOLD to 100 on Friday afternoon and resetting it on Monday morning. This is not an invitation for more posts on the weekend, and my personal opinion is this is NOT the right thing to do, but it ensures that the list will stay up over the weekend. To get the original discussion of a 50 message limit send a single line of mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: GETPOST BEE-L 18359 18398 20684 Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:28:42 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Re: Help settle a friendly dispute. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980224030037.006836f8@sincom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII About royal jelly production. Some years ago, I researched and wrote at least one article on this topic. RJ is produced only by queen producers/breeders in the South (and West?) but only for their own use, and NOT for sale. RJ for sale in the states comes only from abroad, like Singapore? Obiter dicta: I was at an Apimondia meeting one year (?in Japan?) watching demonstrators show the audience how to produce RJ. I was standing next to Al Dietz who remarked: `They are using the method I developed years ago.' (A.D. started in Maryland B4 he moved to Georgia.) Cheers from jack the bman **John Iannuzzi, Ph.D. **38 years in apiculture **12 hives of Italian honeybees **At Historic Ellicott City, Maryland, 21042, U.S.A. (10 miles west of Baltimore, Maryland) [9772 Old Annapolis Rd - 410 730 5279] **"Forsooth there is some good in things evil For bees extract sweetness from the weed" -- Bard of Avon **Website: http://www.xmetric.com/honey **Email: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [1jan981031est] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:44:04 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Quoting and 50 message limit In-Reply-To: <980224.080311.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >...besides isn't this a discussion group??... > Yes, this is a discussion group ... Consider raw volume - volume in > downloads, volume in digests, volume in logs, volume in archives! Exactly. Just because this is a discussion group doesn't mean nettiquette and good sense and consideration do not apply. The right to do something does not imply that it is wise or right, only that we can do it. Liberty demands that we excercise discretion. The owners of this list permit us to do stupid things. It is up to us not to do them. Every single time someone sends a post with excessive quotes, it pollutes the results of his own or someone else's future searches of our most vauable product -- our archives. It means that research the next time the question comes up means wading through repetitious quotes. We have talked about editing the BEE-L archives to remove the binaries and the quotes and the 'me toos', but it is a gargantuan task. We've let it go on too long. It's past time for moderation on BEE-L. If any of you think your readers need or enjoy your excessive quoting and the posts you send in the middle of the night when you have had too much to drink and can't figger out how to edit your own work, I offer the proof that they do not: Best of Bee (only one year old) now has *500 subscribers* -- almost fully 62% of BEE-L membership and it is growing fast as a percentage of the BEE-L figure. It is overtaking BEE-L. I expect it may well surpass BEE-L within a year -- if nothing changes. Ie. unless BEE-L gets moderation. Best of Bee is a moderated and edited version of BEE-L and I think we have logs and an archive going back one year (BEE-L goes back practically to creation), but I am so busy cutting out the quotes and garbage from what comes in on BEE-L that I haven't taken time to get the search features going. I haven't even edited the Best of Bee welcome letter which contains several errors. Oh well. Anyhow, BEE-L is a great list and many of us have learned nettiquette and use of the email software right here in front of 800 readers on this tolerant and good humoured group. Most of us are quick learners, and most are considerate of others. Fortunately, any that aren't usually get bored and wander off fairly quickly. We all know that accidents happen, and that new people have to learn somewhere -- we all know that and are patient. But let's remember that our readers are intelligent enough to remember what they read yesterday. If not, and if they care enough, they can quickly request a recent log any time they need to get some history on the current discussion or they can search the recent posts on the subject. 500 Best of Bee readers (former BEE-L members) cannot be wrong when they say 'We don't need that stuff' and signoff or nomail bee-l in favour of Best of Bee. Qed FWIW Allen --- * Want to cut the volume of mail from BEE-L? * Want to improve the signal to noise ratio? Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:59:18 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Beating the bees to it! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tom Barrett asks: > "Am I correct in saying, that by using queen cells raised in response > to the swarming impulse, that we are perpetuating the swarming > propensity, when what we should be doing is lessening it?" My personal speculation on the issue of genetic selection for swarming propensity is that it is a red herring! Swarming is the natural way that the biological unit (a colony of bees) reproduces. Genetic selection requires reproduction; genetic selection for nonreproductive units seems an oxymoron. I'm not saying that one group or strain of bee may or may not be more inclined to swarm than another, but ALL healthy bees at some point in their existence will be inclined to swarm. BEES SWARM, period. > Conversely, does this not make the Demaree or the Snelgrove or the > Jenter systems superior (or not). What makes any of the above systems (an excellent list by the way) superior to "just lettin' 'em swarm" or "cut out swarm cells and give 'em more room", is that the above systems mimic a natural swarm while keeping the population either intact or at least in the same apiary as opposed to the woods or worse yet, your neighbors walls. The systems work with your bees, acknowledges their natural desire to reproduce and lets bees be bees on the beekeepers schedule! On a different topic, I have to applaud how Tom has used this list! An initial question about swarming was asked and answered along with suggestions for good readings. Tom read the answers, researched the texts and brought back better questions. Now, THAT'S the best of BEE-L! Aaron Morris - I love it when things work as designed! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:56:46 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: Swarm Control -----Original Message----- From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 7:27 PM Subject: Swarm Control >Hi All > >I am reading up on this subject and I am grateful for the assistance I >obtained recently. I am a beginner beekeeper and I am trying to understand >some of the theory of this highly complex activity. Some questions come to >mind, and I thought I would put then out for comment. > >Many methods of swarm control, consist of the beekeeper taking action when >the swarming procedures have been initiated by the bees. MOST EXPERIENCED BEEKEEPERS FEEL THAT IF THE BEES HAVE INITATED SWARMING PROCEDURES IT IS TOO LATE TO TAKE ACTION AND THEY WILL EVENTUALLY SWARM REGARDLESS OF THE ACTION. I DON'T FULLY BELIEVE THIS, BUT I THINK IT IS IMPRACTICAL FOR ANY BUT THE HOBBYIST TO TAKE THE ACTION NECESSARY. FURTHER, I THINK THAT EVEN FOR THE HOBBYIST THE ACTION NECESSARY (OPENING THE HIVE WEEKLY FOR AT LEAST THREE WEEKS, SHAKING THE BEES FROM EVERY FRAME AND CUTTING OUT ALL QUEEN CELLS) SO DEMORILIZES THE BEES THAT THEY WILL GET A SHARPLY REDUCED CROP. Am I correct in >saying, that by using queen cells raised in response to the swarming >impulse, that we are perpetuating the swarming propensity, when what we >should be doing is lessening it? THE ARTIFICIAL METHODS ARE MEANT TO BE TAKEN BEFORE THE BEES START SWARM PROCEDURES. AS SUCH, THE BEEKEEPER DOES NOT KNOW IF THEY WOULD REALLY SWARM IF LEFT UNATTENDED. INSTEAD, THE BEEKEEPER IS PLAYING THE ODDS. THAT SAID, THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT IF ONE FINDS A HIVE THAT DOES NOT SWARM DESPITE CONDITIONS THAT LEAD OTHER HIVES TO SWARM, HE HAS FOUND A VALUABLE CHARACTERISTIC OF THAT QUEEN. . If this be the case, then the Artificial >Swarming method of Swarm Control is really only creating a demand for itself. > >Conversely, does this not make the Demaree or the Snelgrove or the Jenter >systems superior, since the queens which are raised are not raised in >response to the swarming impulse (or are they).? THE DAMAREE AND SNELGROVE SYSTEMS ARE BOTH METHODS OF CREATING AN ARTIFICIAL SWARM THAT THE BEEKEEPER CAN CONTROL, AND THUS NOT LOSE THE ENTIRE CROP AS HE ALMOST CERTAINLY WOULD IF THE BEES SWARMED NATURALLY. THE JENTER SYSTEM IS REALLY QUITE DIFFERENT, AND IS PRIMARILY A MEANS OF PRODUCING QUEENS WITHOUT THE SPECIALIZED THECNIQUES OF GRAFTING. > > >Sincerely >Tom Barrett >49 South Park >Foxrock >Dublin 18 >Ireland > >e mail cssl@iol.ie >Tel + 353 1 289 5269 >Fax + 353 1 289 9940 > >Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North >Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:47:47 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Toto627@AOL.COM Subject: Re: An Oiler but not MO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings - Do I understand correctly that you are putting a veg. oil soaked napkin in instead of a grease patty? We have been using the standard solid veg. patty with wintergreen oil and sugar mixed in. Could you describe your process to me? Thanks. Toto627@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Fredrick, Heidi" Subject: Re: More Dead Bees, Nosema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where would I send a sample to test for a nosema spore count. Is there a lab near Michigan? Heidi Fredrick Ypsilanti, MI -----Original Message----- From: Excerpts from BEE-L [SMTP:bees@systronix.net] Sent: Monday, February 23, 1998 11:40 PM To: Bestofbee@systronix.net Subject: Re: More Dead Bees, Nosema From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: More Dead Bees, Nosema The symptom you report indicates dysentary. Dysentary is simply diahrea and can be caused by poor quality winter stores, inadequate winter flight, nosema, other infections. It is also associated with prolonged damp conditions and or tracheal mites. My personal observation is that nosema has increased since the arrival of tracheal mites and that it is now a serious problem, at least here in NY. As I've said before here on Bee-L, I think more beekeepers should be sending bee samples in for nosema spore counts. The "do an experiment method" may be fun but in the long run expensive, just sent bees to the lab and you'll know if your bees are infected. The scientists, notably Dr. Furgla, have already proved fumagillin works. Remember folks, winter losses are just the tip on the nosema iceberg. Nosema levels peak in mid to late summer in the north. Nosema reduces the length of a bees life by up to 33%. What is a bee doing during the last 33% of life? Ever see hives that look normal except that they were not making as much honey as other colonies? Of course there are other factors but nosema is one. And it has rescently been identified as an important factor of queen performance. As someone else mentioned, equipment can be contaminated with nosema spores. This can be rectified with a good medication program using fumaggillin. Dr. Furgala recomended a 2 gal. treatment each fall and 1 gal. each spring as a MINIMUM treatment to control nosema. Although expensive it is more cost effective that replacing equipment especially if you depend on an income from your bees. Regarding the "Pulling a bee apart and looking at the mid gut?" test for nosema, I've found this is reliable only when the result is positive. Often when the result is negative a spore count indicates a high infection rate. Hope this helps, Vince ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:24:10 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Organic Standards - does anybody like them? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Having been asked to help prepare the Maryland State Beekeepers Association reply to the proposed USDA organic honey standards, I would like to hear form anybody who intends to become a certified organic honey producer anywhere in the USA. You can write me direct at wgmiller@aol.com. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ps. If you don't like the proposed standards, there is no need to tell me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:30:03 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ted F. Wout" Allen Dick wrote: >Just because this is a discussion group doesn't mean nettiquette and good >sense and consideration do not apply. The right to do something does not >imply that it is wise or right, only that we can do it. Liberty demands >that we exercise discretion. The owners of this list permit us to do >stupid things. It is up to us not to do them. Well said and I agree completely. >Best of Bee (only one year old) now has *500 subscribers* -- almost fully >62% of BEE-L membership and it is growing fast as a percentage of the >BEE-L figure. It is overtaking BEE-L. I expect it may well surpass BEE-L >within a year -- if nothing changes. Ie. unless BEE-L gets moderation. Here I differ with you Allen, Bee-L has moderation it's called Best of Bee. Those who want it can use it. Many do. But those who want to wade through the muck and the flames are also welcome to do so. Just like we have the freedom and should be responsible not to abuse it we have the freedom to read through it all. We don't need involuntary topic police to prevent us from having some excessive mail. We have an alternative. Freedom of choice. I love it. It's what my father jumped ship in Hoboken, New Jersey for in 1956. >500 Best of Bee readers (former BEE-L members) cannot be wrong when they >say 'We don't need that stuff' and signoff or nomail bee-l in favour of >Best of Bee. They're not wrong for making the choice just as those who read it all are not wrong. >Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee ...if you want to cut the muck and the flames out of your email. If you want to wade through it all leave it alone. We don't need big brother looking over our shoulder. Ted Wout twout@juno.com Red Oak, TX, USA (about 20 miles south of Dallas) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:16:19 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Darrells Subject: Re: Quoting and 50 message limit In-Reply-To: <980224.080311.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> I am new to the Internet but not new to bees. Bees work to the "lets >>get it done now" principle. Following this thought, I have an >>observation and a suggestion to post. Many contributions to Bee-L are >>very long. Many of these are long because the sender has copied a >>previous sender's post completely (including other sender's work) with the result that I find it confusing and annoying and often hit the delete button before reading the one line of original thought. Do these authors know that they are sending all this stuff? I don't know what this item will look like when it hits your screen, because I don't get a copy! You may be sitting there thinking " what is the matter with this nut Darrell from Canada, he doesn't know how to type" but I will never know unless you tell me or I see my own post. Why not include a sender's post in his/her mail giving them the opportunity to see what they are sending and a chance to correct their errors. Thanks for listening! Bob Darrell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:30:25 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: posting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, my apologizies to Aaron Morris, i didn't see the whole picture on bee-l, after reading his response i now realize what he is saying, about reposting the whole messages. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:45:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Spring Inspection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all I thought I would comment on the current state of my bees. Given the mild winter and all. My brother Robert and I checked out one apiary Sunday which consists of three colonies that were nucs last July, which we got from The Bee Works. We hadn't looked at them for some time, and were happy to see three quite populous colonies. When we tipped up the top brood box and looked at the lower one, there was a cluster of bees that covered about 75% of the area. I think this is larger than should be at this time of year? Obviously the queens have been laying for some time. Two colonies had top boxes full of honey and the other was given feed with Terr. and Fumidil. Also, Mineral Oil was applied to the top bars of all boxes with a syringe. Today we went to another apiary with not-so-good conditions. One colony of Robert's nucs was very very low on stores and bees and one was dead....probably from Tracheal Mites, since there were hardly any dead bees present. Two of mine were dead, which is strange since a few weeks ago all were quite active. One dead colony was an Italian swarm from 1996 which didn't perform very well last year and probably died of mites, and the other was a Buckfast which produced 205 lbs of honey in 1997, and seems to have died from Foul Brood, although I treated with Terr. both in sugar syrup and powder on the top bars. Two swarm-colonies at this yard are full of very grumpy bees and seem quite healthy and have ample stores, as is evident by my now sore back...;) Mineral Oil was again applied. So...I thought I would comment on our state of things so far and am wondering how others are doing. Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 8 colonies and counting Southern Ontario between Lakes Erie and Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:53:32 -0600 Reply-To: cspacek@flash.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: curtis spacek Subject: Re: Challenge - how to count nectar vs water gatherers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In order to gain a more accurate average weight weigh the hives at night.Disregard any fluctuations during daylight hours or configure the system using a photo switch to only record weight after dark. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:59:07 -0800 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Nosema, patties, and other things. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Can anyone help with the research references concerning the effect of fall > vrs spring feeding of Fumidil-D and both compared to not feeding at all? > feeding Good post Lloyd, Dr. Furgala told me that he found that 2 gals in the fall and 1 gal in the spring was the minimum required to control nosema. He said that if you cannot afford this this treatment not to waste your time and money with a lesser one. He also said that if you get nosema under control, and that may take a few years, and you wished to save a bit of cash, you might skip one year in three of treatments but to be careful in doing so and to keep an eye on spore counts. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:00:28 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Teresa Garcma Subject: Re: Drones for ever MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Garth, I wanted to see the web page you mentioned, but I couldn=B4t open it.=20 Maybe the address is incorrect? Please, could you tell me how did you=20 get to know this webpage? I think It will be very interesting. I tried to e-mail you directly, but couldn=B4t! (maybe it=B4s my Netscape= =20 not functioning ok?) Thank you, Tere ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Robert Watson Subject: Re: Spring Inspection In-Reply-To: <01bd4186$acced0a0$443a05d1@k6200.niagara.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Ian Watson wrote: > Today we went to another apiary with not-so-good conditions. > One colony of Robert's nucs was very very low on stores and bees > and one was dead....probably from Tracheal Mites, since there were > hardly any dead bees present. Just to clarify : "one was dead" refers to a colony that was a late-May swarm that I picked up. I had got 3 supers of honey from them... they were a strong colony. They got apistan strips this autumn as well as sugar syrup with medication. They were flying three or four weeks ago when we had a warm spell. They didn't starve ... there is plenty of honey. The nuc that is small and low on stores has a half-filled divisiuon board feeder in it at present .(I put it in there in the late Autumn)... and before that was used, I was attempting to feed it by inverted buckets , but it wasn't taking the feed very rapidly... why would a colony not take feed given to it ??? It needed it ... There is so much to learn about beekeeping. Robert C.L. Watson rwatson1@npiec.on.ca pipe organ technician organist - choirmaster early woodwind player beekeeper homebrewer tenor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:42:45 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Please give Your email address Hello Rimantas, Thank You very much for Your help.I never knew how to double click on the "from",that was a very good idea.Thank You again and I hope You are having a good year so far.I will begin teaching bee school next week,and a lot of people are signing up to attend,so I am very excited !! Sincerely, Garry Libby Boston,USA LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:07:45 -0800 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: Lab, swarm cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heidi Fredrick: To find a lab that will check for Nosema and maybe other bee diseases in your state I'd suggest that you contact the Michigan State Apiarist Michael Hansen at 616 428 2575 or email at: hansenmg@state.mi.us Swarm cells: For many years I have kept colonies from swarming by making supercedure cells out of swarm cells. One day back in 1965 or so it occurred to me that bee bahavior suggested that this was a technique worth trying. To my knowledge it has prevented swarming every time. For beginners, swarm cells are usually located along the bottom bars of the frames of a second or third brood nest, along the edge of combs that do not touch the frame end bars, or along the edges of pass through holes in the face of the comb. Supercedure cells are usually in the upper half of a comb, towards the center of the frame, and built into the comb face. The old queen must not have stopped laying! Once the queen has quit laying only drastic measures seem to be successful. The technique may be used even if several queen cells are old enough to be slightly darker at the tip than the body of the cell. These cells may contain live queens. Usually there are a range of age in swarm cells in a hive. Cells may range from half built open cells four days old, to cells with a darkening tip from which a queen will shortly emerge (16 days). Colonies build swarm cells for several reasons some of which are not very obvious. Usually, crowded conditions are associated with swarming. Unless the crowded conditions are alleviated, swarming can't be prevented just postponed. Crowding can be alleviated by moving emerging brood and honey into another brood nest on top of the bottom two deeps (or a western on top of three westerns). Frames with foundation or empty combs are placed among the combs with eggs and open brood so the queen has several open combs in which to lay. If these steps are taken just as swarm cells are being started and even when they have larvae in them, just remove the cells. Usually this stops the swarming behavior. If the cells are older as described above I suggest the following technique. If the queen is still laying, alleviate the crowded conditions in the brood nest. Remove the uncapped swarm cells and the older capped cells. Save two to four large, young capped cells. With a hive tool or pocket knife create two to four openings in the upper third of the face of two combs four inches in from the end bars. Do not cut through the midrib of the comb. Using a sharp pocket knife carefully remove two to four large, young capped swarm cells from the bottom of the frame. Be careful to not crush the cells. If the cells are attached to the bottom bar carefully cut away some of the bottom bar. Then remove the cell from the comb by cutting deep enough to get the base of the cell which contains the royal jelly. Transfer the cells into the openings made in the comb face and carefully push the surrounding wax over the cell base to hold it in the opening. Everytime I have used this technique the bees have torn down the supercedure cells, repaired the comb, and the old queen keeps laying without the colony swarming. If the bees know the queen is failing they will raise new queens from the cells. Sometimes I do think we can fool the bees, or more properly, take advantage of their normal behaviors. James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com 509 576 3041 phone 509 454 7858 fax ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:43:04 -0700 Reply-To: darn@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Quoting and 50 message limit Comments: To: Darrells In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Darrells wrote: Why not include a sender's post > in his/her mail giving them the opportunity to see what they are sending > and a chance to correct their errors. Thanks for listening! You can get a copy of your own postings by sending a message to the listserver containing ONLY the expression: SET bee-l REPro N.B. Send the message to LISTSERV, not to BEE-L! Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:41:00 -0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: P Munn Subject: Re: Policing the list I don't know what all this fuss is about. This list is wonderful precisely because it is so active. I belong to several other academic lists that go completely dead from time to time and |I get a real buzz out of switching on my email in the morning and seeing 30 new messages from bee-L. Even if some of them are boring or irrelevant, it takes very little time to delete them. I agree with Ted about having an unpoliced list. Penny Munn Lancashire/ Scotland ---------- * From: Ted F. Wout * To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU * Date: 24 February 1998 21:30 * * Allen Dick wrote: * >Just because this is a discussion group doesn't mean nettiquette and * good * >sense and consideration do not apply. The right to do something does * not * >imply that it is wise or right, only that we can do it. Liberty demands * >that we exercise discretion. The owners of this list permit us to do * >stupid things. It is up to us not to do them. * Well said and I agree completely. * * >Best of Bee (only one year old) now has *500 subscribers* -- almost * fully * >62% of BEE-L membership and it is growing fast as a percentage of the * >BEE-L figure. It is overtaking BEE-L. I expect it may well surpass * BEE-L * >within a year -- if nothing changes. Ie. unless BEE-L gets moderation. * Here I differ with you Allen, Bee-L has moderation it's called Best of * Bee. Those who want it can use it. Many do. But those who want to wade * through the muck and the flames are also welcome to do so. Just like we * have the freedom and should be responsible not to abuse it we have the * freedom to read through it all. We don't need involuntary topic police * to prevent us from having some excessive mail. We have an alternative. * Freedom of choice. I love it. It's what my father jumped ship in * Hoboken, New Jersey for in 1956. * * >500 Best of Bee readers (former BEE-L members) cannot be wrong when they * >say 'We don't need that stuff' and signoff or nomail bee-l in favour of * >Best of Bee. * They're not wrong for making the choice just as those who read it all are * not wrong. * * >Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee * ...if you want to cut the muck and the flames out of your email. If you * want to wade through it all leave it alone. We don't need big brother * looking over our shoulder. * * Ted Wout * twout@juno.com * Red Oak, TX, USA (about 20 miles south of Dallas) * * _____________________________________________________________________ * You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. * Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com * Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:02:02 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: beating the bees to it! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For Attention of Aaron Morris Thank you for your reply to my questions on swarming control. I must confess that I have, until now seen swarming in a negative light, but your remarks, that swarming is natural and inevitable, have been most helpful in putting it in a positive light for me. The outcome of the discussion for me is, go along with the bees desires if at all possible, and advantages will accrue to both the bees and the beekeeper. And thank you for your kind remarks - I obtain tremendous benefits from BEE-L. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:23:03 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Policing the list In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I don't know what all this fuss is about. This list is wonderful > precisely because it is so active. I belong to several other academic > lists that go completely dead from time to time and |I get a real buzz > out of switching on my email in the morning and seeing 30 new messages > from bee-L. Even if some of them are boring or irrelevant, it takes very > little time to delete them. I agree with Ted about having an unpoliced > list. Penny Munn Lancashire/ Scotland > ---------- > * From: Ted F. Wout > * To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > * Date: 24 February 1998 21:30 > * > * Allen Dick wrote: > * >Just because this is a discussion group doesn't mean nettiquette and > * good > * >sense and consideration do not apply. The right to do something does > * not > * >imply that it is wise or right, only that we can do it. Liberty > demands > * >that we exercise discretion. The owners of this list permit us to do > * >stupid things. It is up to us not to do them. > * Well said and I agree completely. > * > * >Best of Bee (only one year old) now has *500 subscribers* -- almost > * fully > * >62% of BEE-L membership and it is growing fast as a percentage of the > * >BEE-L figure. It is overtaking BEE-L. I expect it may well surpass > * BEE-L > * >within a year -- if nothing changes. Ie. unless BEE-L gets > moderation. > * Here I differ with you Allen, Bee-L has moderation it's called Best of > * Bee. Those who want it can use it. Many do. But those who want to > wade > * through the muck and the flames are also welcome to do so. Just like > we > * have the freedom and should be responsible not to abuse it we have the > * freedom to read through it all. We don't need involuntary topic > police > * to prevent us from having some excessive mail. We have an > alternative. > * Freedom of choice. I love it. It's what my father jumped ship in > * Hoboken, New Jersey for in 1956. > * > * >500 Best of Bee readers (former BEE-L members) cannot be wrong when > they > * >say 'We don't need that stuff' and signoff or nomail bee-l in favour > of > * >Best of Bee. > * They're not wrong for making the choice just as those who read it all > are > * not wrong. > * > * >Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee > * ...if you want to cut the muck and the flames out of your email. If > you > * want to wade through it all leave it alone. We don't need big brother > * looking over our shoulder. > * > * Ted Wout > * twout@juno.com > * Red Oak, TX, USA (about 20 miles south of Dallas) > * > * _____________________________________________________________________ > * You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > * Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > * Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > * It's obvious that neither of those quoted above actually read and understood my posts on the topic. I did *not* advocate what they apparently think. They are arguing with a straw man of their own creation. However, I think most list members do understand. If the above members request a log to find out what I actually did say, they may understand better the need for self-discipline or imposed limits to quoting. I must express my appreciation. 'P Munn' illustrates my point better than I could have. See all the jumbled -- and mostly irrelevant -- quotes above. Thanks. Allen --- Think you missed something? Wondering exactly what was happening on BEE-L? Simply send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEND BEE-L LOG9801A You'll get the full proceedings of the week. In this example A = first week, 01 = Jan, 98 = 1998 Logs are available back to 1994 or so ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: gmaloney@gis.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: gmaloney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DICK Enough Already! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:04:34 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Gorging bees with Fumidil-B In-Reply-To: <07433520301446@yvn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >... I first heard about the gorging technique from Roy Thurber a > beekeeper who had an insatiable desire for knowledge about bees. Glad you mentioned Roy. Made me get out his book, "Bee Chats, Tips and Gadgets". A most fascinating book, I must say. > He showed me some research from New Zealand about 20 years ago in which > the data indicated that by gorging bees three times ten days apart with > enough syrup to get the bees all wet each time (about four cups for 12 > combs of bees in the spring = 12 cups) the Nosema level in a colony was > reduced the same amount as if a gallon (16 cups) had been fed using a > feeder. Hmmm. Not much of a saving -- especially if travel and labour is figured in. (I have frame feeders in both brood boxes year round and a power feeder-filling machine). Glad to hear that there is some research behind this though. I suppose the big advantage is that not all hives will take syrup from a feeder -- especially those which are most in need of medication? BTW, Roy also advocated feeding a few drops of fumigillan medicated syrup to queens that arrive in the mail, as I recall. > My observations of treated and untreated colonies in wet springs is that > treated colonies have more bees (2-5 combs) by April than untreated > colonies. We usually have pretty dry springs, but I guess I should get with the program. > Here we can get a private lab to check a bee sample for $25.00. Actually I have a microscope and the calibrated slide for counting spores. It's an easy process, actually. I'm just lazy I guess. My friend Eric has been suggesting we do a few tests and some treatment experiments this spring and I think I will. I have $1000 of fumigillan I bought the other year and didn't use. Stupid me! (I guess) I suppose it's like any IPM approach: the first step is to measure to see if there is really a problem, no matter whether it seems obvious or is not visible. I'll have to do so -- and quit assuming. > Let's talk economics... Now if feeding Fumidil-B results in just two > more combs of bees, or two pounds of bees (weighing approximately one > pound per comb at 55F.), then what is the cost of a two pound package? > And if you want a rapid start in the spring, is a $1.70 investment > worth the return? Too obvious for most of us, I guess. The thing is that nosema is invisible. I know the extension people -- including yourself -- have been hitting on this nosema thing pretty hard and can't figure why beekeepers won't use Fumigillan regularly when they seem eager to buy exotic oils etc. and rush out to put everything but the kitchen sink in their hives. Thanks for keeping on banging away. I think the message is finally getting through. I'm going to test this year. Honest. This time I'm going to do it... Allen -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:06:25 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Wild hives producing less honey?? Greets All I just read your post Ted and liked it, but would like to differ where you mentioned that wild hives produce less honey. A distinction has to be made here. One gets wild hives in post boxes and other 'bad' places that produce maybe thirty kg maximum of surplus. The bees have a stationary comb structure so they canot move their combs around. After three or four years most of the combs in the hive are filthy and the hive loses vigour. A beehive in a large, insulated cavity however is a different story. They have a lot of space - therefore lots of ventilation. They have no draughts, therefore no problem keepeing the cluster warm with their bee screen. They have no problem cleaing over winter because they can just let stuff drop. I remember once removing a huge swarm from a room that had been closed for two year because a large swarm had established in there. The bees themselves when removed filled just over one and a half langstroth hive bodies without anything in them, plus half of a laser paper box the next day. The honey combs removed totalled just over a 115kg, and brood are of at least a square meter. The hived bees were given a two hive bodies, a super and five frames of brood and then a few drawn combs and foundation. They have produced about ten kilos surpluss this year, although they have requeaned. In the same area beekeepers were getting about 20kg a year if lucky, so seeing as this hive had been there two years it had produced at least three times as much honey. Sorry to be a spanner in the works, but I believe given a decent shelter wild bees are more productive than kept bees. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:25:23 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Ted F. Wout" Subject: Re: Wild hives producing less honey?? Garth wrote: >Sorry to be a spanner in the works, but I believe given a decent >shelter wild bees are more productive than kept bees. I agree with you, Garth, that hives in a house can produce much honey. But I count this as not being a wild hive. They're living in a man-made structure and therefore in my opinion, human intervention has taken place, if not management. Wild hives are hives living in the wild, trees, holes in the ground, clefts in cliffs, etc. Maybe I should have replaced human intervention for managed. The spirit of my post remains true even if you disagree. Before man made insulated homes I don't think many examples like you're telling us about ever occurred. Ted Wout twout@juno.com Red Oak, TX, USA (about 20 miles south of Dallas) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:33:41 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Best of Bee In-Reply-To: <19980224.154135.4335.3.twout@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 24 Feb 98 at 16:30, Ted F. Wout wrote: >> >Send email to honeybee@systronix.net saying join bestofbee > ...if you want to cut the muck and the flames out of your email. If > you want to wade through it all leave it alone. We don't need big > brother looking over our shoulder. Welcome back Ted, and well said. I for one certainly don't need, want nor appreciate censorship in any form. At the risk of bringing Mr. Dick's wrath down on my head, this is what he is aiming for. Moderate?, no, it's censorship by another name. My personel view. Mr. Dick has a real nerve, taking posts from Bee-L (he didn't ask permission of either the list owner nor the author) to boost his Best of Bee. What would happen if we all moved to BoB, where would the posts come from then? Would anyone care to discuss the legality of BoB? Surely there must be some question regarding republishing written matter without the authors permission? ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:57:34 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Let's nip this in the bud, please! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > Would anyone care to discuss the legality of BoB? Surely there must > be some question regarding republishing written matter without the > authors permission? > Please gentlemen, this is not BEE-L worthy. I think the legality issues only kick in when $$$ is exchanged, but before we clutter BEE-L with this discussion let it be known that leagal beagles haven't yet hashed this one out - probably will require a ruling from the Supreme Court before there is a definitive decree. I guess Allen Dick is entitled to a public response on BEE-L to these challanges, but I hope for the sake of the list that Ted and Dave and Allen keep this private and off-list. An "Editorial" on BEE-L nettique will be forth coming. Not that I have more of a say than anyone else, I don't feel that is so. But I do have some insight to offer from a system administrator's point of view that will address these issues. Until such tie, please keep this off list. Aaron Morris - thinking, "Can't we all just get along?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:28:19 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Swarm Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Tom wrote: > > Conversely, does this not make the Demaree or the Snelgrove or the > > Jenter systems superior (or not). And I answered: > What makes any of the above systems (an excellent list by the way).... I was expecting to be critiqued on my response regarding the excellent list of swarm control methods. Lloyd touched on the Jenter system being a queen raising technique rather than a swarm control methodology. I own (but have never used) a Jenter Queen raising system (will use it this year, honest)! I assumed there must be more behind Jenter than queen raising and hit the books last night to research the issue. I was surprised to find no reference to Jenter in either _The_Hive_and_the_Honey_Bee_ or _The_ABCs_and_XYZs..._! I assume this is because it is a relatively new innovation in beekeeping. But as near as I can find, Who(?) Jenter has no advice to offer regarding swarm control (although I bet he/she advises young queens raised in a Jenter system!). For those unfamiliar with the Jenter system, it consists of a plastic frame with queen excluder grids on front and back, into which a queen can be confined and forced/enduced to lay eggs into little plastic queen cups which can then be given to cell builder colonies. Advantages are that the queen cups will all have eggs of the same age (only hours variation in age vs days) and since the eggs are laid directly in the queen cups, no larval grafting is necessary. I purchased the system because my eyes are bad enough that if I can see a larva it is too big/old to graft. Back to swarm control, Demaree and Snelgrove both offer effective (ergo labor intensive) methods to address bees' inherent desire to swarm. I had the opportunity to hear Dr. Dewey Caron speak at the Empire State Honey Producers fall meeting last November, where he addressed swarming. Dr. Caron spoke about preparations within a hive prior to casting a swarm. Of interest was the assertion that one of the last preparations in the hive is most often the first clue picked up upon by the beekeeper! That would be swarm cells. By the time a hive is raising swarm cells, conditions in the hive have approached those which encourage a hive to reproduce (have a calf as Dave Green would say) and by then most beekeeper efforts to prevent swarming work against the bees rather than working with the bees. How many beekeepers have cut out many, many swarm cells, added supers, figured they've "solved" the problem and then discovered a day or two later that their bees have swarmed anyway?!? The best approach to swarm prevention is proactive vs reactive, and all proactive approaches in one way or another approximate the conditions of a "post swarm" hive. Demaree shuffles hives around such that populations are split (populous hives augment weak hives). Snelgrove shuffles populations such that the nurse bees go upstairs and the field bees go downstairs. Both methods relieve the congestion within the hive and ease the conditions that will encourage swarming. The gist of Dr. Caron's presentation was that whatever method a keeper uses (Demaree, Snelgrove, shook swarming, let 'em swarm and catch it, ...), methods that allow the bees to accomplish their natural, instinctual, biologically necessary to survive requirement of swarming is a de facto REQUIRED lesson for every beekeeper to learn! I also expected to be challanged on my assertion that selecting for nonswarming disposition is a red herring and that BEES SWARM, period. I reviewed _In_Search_of_the_Best_Strains_of_Bees_ by Brother Adam in which he lists the traits of the different genetic material/bee strains he collected from across Europe and Northern Africa for use in developing the Buckfast bee. Brother Adam definitivly states that some strains are more inclined to swarm than others and lists that as a major fault of Apis carnica and a strong point in favor of Apis caucasia. So again, I stand corrected (am I arguing with myself here?). However, it is pointed out in his book as well as many other writings that pure strains of any kind are harder and harder to find in our ever increasingly homogonous world. Again I recommend this text to everyone to help foster an appreciation for the range of characteristics in the "common" honey bee. As Robert Watson posted, "There's so much to learn about beekeeping!" Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:40:41 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Death to AFB spores! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT A few days ago when I posted that a solar melter will not sterilize equipment, I was asked off list for the temperature at which AFB spores are killed. I thought this was covered on-list, but was not successful searching the BEE-L archives. I was surprised not to find the answer in _THatHB_ or _ABCs..._ and not even in _Honey_Bee_Pests,_Predators,_and_Diseases_ by Morse and Nowogrodzki. The closest I could come was that in preparing samples for examination for AFB one must heat the solution to 80dC to kill non-sporative bacteria. The texts did not give the lethal temperature for AFB spores. So now that I've searched the archives and checked three text books I'll impose a simple (I thought) question on the list. What is the lethal temperature for spores of Bacillus larvae (American Foulbrood)? TIA, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:03:42 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Swarm control; swarming vs. absconding In-Reply-To: <980225.114013.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In Venezuela I have seen many abandoned sets of combs on trees, left by colonies that had absconded. This would be on the plains (llanos) where there is a very distinct wet/dry season climate. Presumably the live colonies I saw clustered on similar arboreal nests during the dry season were africanized honey bees. Sometimes a big tree would have a couple of quiet, clustered colonies, and 3-4 abandoned nests just a few feet away. Since there is variation in propensity for swarming in our bees, it would suggest that the different races benefitted from more swarming or less swarming, depending on the conditions in their habitats. That is, before they were moved all over and blended, resulting in the bees we are working with, and the variation they show. Question is, is absconding behavior - wholesale nest desertion - an extreme of swarming tendency? OR is it something entirely different? It is apparent in africanized colonies of A. m. (also I believe common with A. cerana). Do the African subspp. of A.m. (scutellata, capensis, etc.) exhibit absconding behavior, and what conditions bring this about? Regarding variation in swarming tendencies, I noticed when I first tried the Buckfasts that they would keep on working during May/June with no interruption, while their neighbors went silly building swarm cells. The difference was quite remarkable, even in 2nd year queens. This may or not be typical, but evidently it was a quality sought by Br. Adam, and so perhaps other B'fast users noticed the same? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:25:10 +0100 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Pailleux Nicolas Subject: capped cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can you help me, I am not sure that when bees cap cells with larva inside, bo they open it before the birth into feed the larva or do they leave cells untill birth ? Nicolas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:12:17 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: To Nicolas Pailleux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Nicolas, BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu is configured as an Open, Private list meaning that anyone can subscribe but only subscribers can post. You are not listed as a subscriber so your post was forwarded to me for approval. If you intend to post regularly or even if you just intend to "lurk", you might consider subscribing. To subscribe to BEE-L send mail to: LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu that reads: SUBSCRIBE BEE-L your name Regarding your question, bees feed larva only during the larval stage. Cells are capped when the larva spins a cocoon and becomes a pupae. Pupae do not eat so once a cell is capped no feeding is necessary. Sincerely, Aaron Morris BEE-L owner/editor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:18:15 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: Re: Death to AFB spores! In-Reply-To: <980225.115348.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> Aaron Morris asked > What is the lethal > temperature for spores of Bacillus larvae (American Foulbrood)? I have been away from the microbiology lab for quite a while so someone please correct me if the is wrong. To kill sterilize something ie kill all living organisms requires live steam and temperatures of 250+ F or about 150 C for 15 minutes. Note that the steam is very important here this is equal to a pressure cooker at 10 psi for 15 minutes if memory serves. To do the same ie sterilize with dry heat you would need to place it in a oven at 350 F for over an hour. As you can easily see these conditions are well beyond temperatures at which wax will be all melted that is why ethylene oxide or radiation is used as they don't require that much heat and the comb can be reused. Hope this helps the memory is getting old and maybe slightly off but the just is there. blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us phone 612-296-0591 fax 612-297-2504 blane.white@state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:18:40 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Please give Your email address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD422A.908D9760" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD422A.908D9760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Garry Thanks for your mail. I hope you are OK. Here is some new s to your bee friend. I succeeded to get a home telephone number of the Ancient beekeeping = museum supervisor (and a founder I suppose ) Mr. BRONIUS KAZLAS. It is = : 370-29-42871 ( town IGNALINA ). I spoke with him today. Unfortunately, = he don't speak English. He is happy to meet anyone in the museum. He = told me his new plan to create another museum something like a Museum of = Human Being Spiritual Values .=20 I would adwise better to contact to the Tourism Center in PALUSE, 3 km = besides the museum, tel. 370-29-52891 or e-mail anp@post.5ci.lt. ( Town = IGNALINA ). I phoned for the girls. I was said they are able to speak = English. One can get more information there. Everyone may arrive here with his car having any European road map. Our = roads are not very bad. I've spread this in Bee-L about 2 weeks ago. Maybe, haven't payd your = attention. All this is included in Mr. Jan's web page now = http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html We have a mild unusual winter this year. Last Sunday we had 9 C and bees = overflied. All the best wishes Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.online.lt/indexs.htm 55 Deg North, 24 Deg East ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD422A.908D9760 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IikSAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAMAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAATwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAERpc2N1c3Npb24gb2Yg QmVlIEJpb2xvZ3kAU01UUABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01U UAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABgAAABCRUUtTEBDTlNJQk0uQUxCQU5ZLkVEVQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAA HgABMAEAAAAcAAAAJ0Rpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgQmVlIEJpb2xvZ3knAAIBCzABAAAAHQAAAFNNVFA6 QkVFLUxAQ05TSUJNLkFMQkFOWS5FRFUAAAAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAA AAIENQEEgAEAIwAAAFJFOiBQbGVhc2UgZ2l2ZSBZb3VyIGVtYWlsIGFkZHJlc3MAEwwBBYADAA4A AADOBwIAGQAUABIAKAADAEEBASCAAwAOAAAAzgcCABkAEwAzAB0AAwBWAQEJgAEAIQAAADVBQ0NB Qjk1MTdBRUQxMTFCOEY0NDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAAgHAQOQBgDEBgAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAA AAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAACoSzBlCvQEeAHAAAQAAACMAAABSRTogUGxl YXNlIGdpdmUgWW91ciBlbWFpbCBhZGRyZXNzAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvUIZzAGVq8xhrhcR0bj0 REVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAEgAAAHp1anVzQGlzYWcubGVpLmx0 AAAAAwAGEPD4JRgDAAcQyAMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAERFQVJHQVJSWVRIQU5LU0ZPUllPVVJNQUlM SUhPUEVZT1VBUkVPS0hFUkVJU1NPTUVORVdTVE9ZT1VSQkVFRlJJRU5ESVNVQ0NFRURFRFRPR0VU QUhPTUVURUxFUEhPTkVOVU0AAAAAAgEJEAEAAAAvBQAAKwUAAHIIAABMWkZ1788HcP8ACgEPAhUC pAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V0bjIGAAbDAoMyA8URlzFUODYAACoC4WEHgCAnBxMCgAcTIEIH QHRpimMCgzMTB3BycRIg+xTVAfE0EScW8hN/FIMHbfcCgAdtFZo1Ew8UEA/vAgAONhZrHWsGsHN0 ZW29AoM3H28ZDxTPFdY4A8ZdI/V9CoAIzwnZOydPMjw1NQKACoENsQtgbmd4MTA2FlALChZSDAFj pQBAIAqFRGUKwUcKwCxyeQqFCoVUEcBua9cEIAIQBcB5CGEgAMADEIAuIEkgaG9wI9CNLtEgCsAj 0E9LLi1MzkgEkCPQBAAgcwNwI9CmbgfRBCB0by7EYgng8y6ACIFuZDCdC0YhsivFYS+Ac3VjYwng DbBkfTKiZxIAMCAvkSPBITBs3GVwL6AyUDJAdQbQBJAoIG9mMqBoI9FuY1czkQVAMzFrCeBwC4Bn PS8QdRHwOEA2AS/AcnZ7BAAFsSgAcDaQNyACEHVHM7A4cTXycHBvEfAgCikF0HIvYEJST04ESVUF 8EtBWkxBHlMvYC9wBUAx0TogMwA3MC0yOS00MlQ4NywQKDKhdwOgSeBHTkFMSUBAPOAvYvZzPKA5 wCAD8DjQL5AHcJEyoWRheS9gVW4ukcp0O/BhN5F5LC+QI9A6ZAIgJwVAQQAssGsg6kUqUGwEAGgv YDGAMcK7EcA8kHkyogeANvJuLtC/OAELgDjDOkREszKwbDaQ/yPBQbAEIDJSC1FGkTLABQD3LLAh MEYBbzjRLwE6VTIR3zjQOgJEcEExNyBNOlQ4odZIOEAcAmU6AlM58AUQ+0KwFXFWB0AKUAQgL2At TM0vgHcIYEfBYWQD8SPQ/zMwAkA4cUjyAiEA0AVAMrHVONJUCGJzOpBDOVE4cS1GgVBAUD2gRUMw MyD+azqQMzAAkA2wMpFGx0Mw1zeRL2A+5TU/YDksEAWxnGUtLyI+QABwcEA8oeh0LjU5MC4VwC9g P7B/UYA//S9xN9M2kC6SONJnyU0QbHMvYndhMeELcP82kTjgRXAwMgGgN7AyokPt+k84AWMDkTbi BGAxokJy/wDAFdACIDjCJ1AwnQqLRHAFIyAwAtFpLTE0NN8N8AzQYYM030QwdgSQRjP/AMBbMgUQ Y3BDQTBBQWUEIP9dQAXAEcA7ADoRRhFEMAhw3y+xA5EDYE+ALxFwXOEu8e9nAgQgMDJJoSBjcjMg T4DvM98LZBLyNYYnZHFBAEkx31riMdFGgUyQVgBMW4EIYJsFQBIgdzmhaCFnby9g/k1CIDMwQzFl 0AnwQ7EKsP55NpAu00LgITACMF6RL2DcQWwDIGwkbFJjCkA2cmtGgT0SSgBwJwQgbYBi/28RNuBo cQfgYj0W8EmwBZAFBUBoAkBwOi8vd2F1QC54czQHQC9QbpBsL35qITFwLwuAkQ2weDMudNBtbAqL d2HcJXIrzFdIAW6xNxFt/wMQNpA78DpQTVID8FIjbCO2eSyxL2BMWoAFQFM78e9kAW2ARSE2kDlR 8EYBNpD7MzEEIG9jcSogCJBpPnB070/SfMED8Tjgc1+vCygX4T0rtlIHcABwAZAEIFp15mo6UIHF S2FCwYFGQGDQVEhVQT2AQS1MVgX1PsB6hFJABABt4FdATKD/V0E0XyundNkCIERwMlBXQX92hFog dwGBxSmQLJE6IE6lJvFoQzAyNI0DRXyxz3dPeF8r+WCGMzZiJ2q1F3RWgcUmcQCUEAADABAQAAAA AAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMIAkHAAWQr0BQAAIMIAkHAAWQr0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00 /TcAAEER ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD422A.908D9760-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:50:31 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: capped cells Nicolas, Once the bees cap the cells, the larvae pupates...that is, it enters a stage where it does not feed and, through the action of hormones, changes from a "worm" (larvae) into a bee. Much like a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. Once the pupal stage is complete the now-formed bee chews its way out of the cell; the other bees do not open the cell. -----Original Message----- From: Pailleux Nicolas To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 12:14 PM Subject: capped cells >Can you help me, I am not sure that when bees cap cells with larva >inside, bo they open it before the birth into feed the larva or do they >leave cells untill birth ? > >Nicolas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:25:47 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Donald Aitken Subject: Re: Swarm Control + Grafting In-Reply-To: <980225.114013.EST.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Aaron Morris wrote: > For those unfamiliar with the Jenter system, it consists of a plastic > frame with queen excluder grids on front and back, into which a queen > can be confined and forced/enduced to lay eggs into little plastic queen > cups which can then be given to cell builder colonies. Advantages are > that the queen cups will all have eggs of the same age (only hours > variation in age vs days) and since the eggs are laid directly in the > queen cups, no larval grafting is necessary. I purchased the system > because my eyes are bad enough that if I can see a larva it is too > big/old to graft. My first inkling that my eyes were not what they used to be came when I tried grafting larvae in the queen breeding course at Olds college. Fortunately, I was able to get a magnifier that fastens to a headband and makes the job relatively easy. You certainly can't graft what you can't see! Donald Aitken 11710-129 Street Edmonton Alberta Canada T5M 0Y7 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:26:10 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Hervey Heywood Subject: 2 cent board To all honey producers: This subject has been touched upon before, but the impact on beekeepers could be serious. Many might be driven out of the business. The following was forwarded to me from Joe Rowland, honey producer in upstate New York: "An A.P.B. on the N.H.B. legislation pending in Congress- The House Agriculture Committee is in the process of reviewing the proposed expansion and reorganization of the National Honey Board (NHB). This is the final opportunity for beekeepers to voice their opinions to Congress on this extremely important issue which could prove pivotal to the future of the U.S. beekeeping industry. The February issue of the _American Bee Journal_ contains a more specific critique of the proposed legislation entitled "The 2 cent board", a beekeeper's assessment. If enacted, honey producers will lose control of the NHB, commercial beekeepers will see their Honey Board "Income Tax" soar, and the stage will be set for increased regulation and bureaucracy industry-wide. It is likely that a decision will be reached by the Committee before the end of March 1998. Please contact the following key members of the House Agricultural Committee immediately and urge them to keep the Honey Board legislation out of 'HB 2534', the Agricultural Research Bill. Robert Smith (Chairman) : Fax 202 225 5774 Charles Stenholm Larry Combest All at: U.S. House of Representatives Agriculture Committee 1301 LHOB Washington, D.C. 20515 House of Representatives switchboard: 202-225-3121 Anyone willing to assist in the effort to block this bill should contact fellow beekeepers and urge them to communicate their opposition immediately to these key Committee members, Robert Smith in particular." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:45:52 +0100 Reply-To: Barry@Birkey.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Organization: BIRKEY.COM Subject: Attacking bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings from a happy dad on a warm 60 degree day in late February. Thought I'd share this experience I just had. I was in my office working when my five year old daughter came walking in with tears running down her face saying "your bees are coming out of their home and they're trying to sting me!" I asked her if she was sure that they were trying to sting her and she assured me they were. I decided to go outside with her and see what was happening. She took me to the front porch which has a southern exposure and we sat down. Within 30 seconds we had about 4 honey bees circling around us. She started to get scared again but I explained to her that they were not interested in stinging her. I told her that the bees have been stuck in the hive all winter long and because it was so warm out, they were out exercising and looking for pollen. So I held out my hand and let a couple of bees land on it. As soon as they got on my hand they started to walk around with their tongues dragging across my skin. Not sure if it was the pizza that I had for lunch or the natural elements that are on ones skin but they sure were enjoying it. As soon as my 7 year old son saw me do this he held out his hand and got to see the bees do the same thing. We all walked back to the hives and saw all the bees bringing in a pale yellow pollen in large amounts. I took them to a neighbors house to see if their pussy willow tree was in bloom yet, but it wasn't. Anyway, it was just another one of those special moments we get too few of to share in the experience of a childs mind being formed and lessons learned. I'm very grateful to be able to work out of the home and have these opportunities. Regards -Barry -- Barry Birkey West Chicago, Illinois USA Barry@Birkey.com http://www.birkey.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:17:12 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Police the list? No. Netiquett? YES! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To address the latest clamor about bringing some sort of order to the chaos let me begin by saying I make NO claims to intellectual rights to BEE-L. This is not MY list, never has been, never will be. The few remaining charter members know that the list was originally proposed and owned by the late Dr. Edward Southwick of the State University of New York at Stony Brook. I never met Ed personally or even electronically, and I was surprised how I grieved at his passing. The impact of these electronic times amazes me. In the days when Dr. Southwick was alive I merely lurked on BEE-L. The list's offerings far surpassed my skills as a beekeeper when it was populated by Ed's peers. The original charter and purpose of BEE-L as he authored was: * * BEE-L is for the discussion of research and information * concerning the biology of bees. This includes honey bees * and other bees (and maybe even wasps). We communicate about * sociobiology, behavior, ecology, adaptation/evolution, * genetics, taxonomy, physiology, pollination, and flower * nectar and pollen production of bees. * Obviously the list has changed from what was originally intended. I ended up as the "Owner/Editor" of BEE-L by virtue of my interest as a hobby beekeeper and my former position as systems manager at the State University of New York at Albany. As a subscriber to BEE-L I have been a staunch defender of the open forum into which the list has evolved. It certainly is NOT of the caliber it once was but it is still a valuable tool for a lot of beekeepers and more than a handful of researchers. To deny that this list has denigrated from its former self is folly. Petty exchanges of barbs between subscribers who can't get along do NOT belong here. Opinions about how nice the weather is in Timbuktu are out of place. As I posted yesterday, excessive quotes of previous material costs subscribers money in downloads, costs subscribers time in reading what they have already read, and costs the University at Albany real money simply to store VOLUMES of rehashed material. "Me too!" and "Right On!" posts are a waste of public space and time. If you want to tell someone "Me too!" or "Right On!" then send fan mail to the person with whom you agree and leave it off the list because it simply does not belong here! OPINIONS do not belong here, INFORMATION belongs here. These are not the rules as dictated by Aaron Morris, BEE-L Owner/Editor, these are the rules of nettiquite that are emerging in an heretofore unexplored medium, the internet. I am not lecturing, I am speaking from the advantaged position of someone whose job it is to be as current in electronic exchanges as I can be. It was incorrect when I agreed yesterday that this is a discussion group, it is not, it's a LISTSERV list. There is a very clear distinction between "discussion" or "news" groups and LISTSERV lists. In cyberspace "discussion" or "news" groups differ from LISTSERV lists in that "discussion" or "news" groups can be more correctly called "opinion" groups whereas LISTSERV lists are, or at least were intended to be factual. And again, these are not rules made up by Aaron Morris, this is netiquette. The reason BEE-L stopped being a "factual" forum and became an "opinion" group is there has not been an active list moderator. Now, a list moderator is NOT the net police and a list moderator is NOT a censor. A list moderator is a gateway through which ALL activity on the list must pass. On moderated lists, all posts first go to the moderator for review and approval or rejection and if approved, the material goes to the list. Hopefully a moderator will know what is fact and what is fiction regarding the subject matter pertaining to the list he or she moderates and will protect the list from falsehoods. In this respect, BEE-L is self moderating - most falsehoods are quickly challenged by the guard bees. Hopefully a list moderator will know the difference between fact and opinion. In this case BEE-L is "semi" moderated ergo some may say it's exceedingly tolerant. However it is not uncommon for some topics to be challenged regarding their pertinence to bees (as in the call for moderation). A list moderator also has the power to reject or return to sender those posts in which the noise to signal ratio is too high. Noise to signal ratio refers to the content of a post. If a post contains 50 lines of quoted material filed by "I Agree!" and a 10 line signature, there are 50 lines of noise, 1 line of me too, 10 lines of incriminating identification and zero lines of useful information. A good list moderator would send that post back to the sender thanking them for their article but regretfully declining to publish their useless crap. An unmoderated list can do none of the above. An unmoderated list cannot enforce the rules of netiquette on subscribers. On an unmoderated list, subscribers can request of other subscribers to use their better judgment regarding what they post, can request of other subscribers to keep their content at least correct and on topic and with a signal to noise ratio at an acceptable level, preferably a decimal less than .5 (apologies to the mathematically challenged). On an unmoderated list, subscribers can request of other subscribers that everyone learn and adhere to the rule of netiquette - if you don't know the rules, fire up a search engine with "netiquette" as the search argument - you'll get over 17,000 hits! If when you're done reading all that you still feel the need to pollute BEE-L with your noise, you'll still be welcome here. Aaron Morris - still thinking we can all get along! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:18:28 +0300 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Carlos Aparicio Subject: Re: Creamed Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:36 PM 22/02/1998 -0500, Lloyd Spear wrote: >I also hope that someone that has produced creamed honey responds to >this...an awful lot is produced! In fact, in many European countries the I did it only for domestic comsuption. Liquid honey is put in a electric blender. The blender movement will inject air in the honey. In a few minutes will be ready. Carlos Aparicio ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:55:07 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Spring management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings: Spring management of winter hives is ready for review... Herb(Midnitebee) Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Creamed Honey In-Reply-To: <199802251618.TAA29083@chasque.chasque.apc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maybe this has been suggested before, but even coarse granulated honey can be put thru a grinder (i.e., a small kitchen electric meat grinder) to yield beautifully smooth "creamed" honey. Much faster and easier than the Dyce process, and less apt to "frost" on the sides of the jar. One try of this and most customers are hooked! It should be stored in a cool place afterwards, BTW. You can use coarse solid honey such as aster/goldenrod, and even though it's not normally considered table-grade, the resulting creamed honey is surprisingly mild, and perfect for spreading on bread or whatever. Give it a try -- I have been told that creamed honey made this way has placed above Dyce-process product in contests more than once. Not much of a honey-eater myself, but I like this much more than the usual liquid honey. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Troy Fore Subject: Research Funds Available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable ABF Queen Breeders Group Soliciting Research Proposals The American Beekeeping Federation=B9s Package Bee and Queen Breeders = Special Interest Group (SIG) is soliciting grant proposals for = research projects related to queen bees. At the 1997 ABF Convention in Norfolk, the SIG members decided to = establish a research fund to accept voluntary contributions from bee = breeders to help solve research problems that are of immediate = concern to the beekeeping industry. At the recent ABF Convention in = Colorado Springs, the SIG collected a substantial amount from a few = generous firms and individuals. Current contributors to the research fund include Kona Queen Hawaii, = Glenn Apiaries, Heitkam=B9s Honey Bees, Strachan Apiaries, Presley = Apiaries, and B. Weaver Apiaries. Other members of the SIG have = pledged their support, including Walker Apiaries, R. Weaver Apiaries, = and Wooten=B9s Golden Queens. The research fund committee asks that = beekeepers support these breeders who are putting a portion of their = revenues to work for the industry, or, alternatively, to encourage = their breeder to contribute to the research fund. The research fund committee developed a list of research priorities = and, with the help of some of the bee scientists present at the = meeting, formulated a list of target topics and guidelines for = requesting research grants. TARGET TOPICS 1. Development of honey bee stocks resistant to varroa. 2. Causes of early queen failure and supersedure (or lack of = supersedure) in queens sold individually, or in packages and nucs. 3. Test/monitor commercial queen stocks for diseases and mites, and = the effect of diseases and mite infestations on queen longevity and = fecundity. 4. Effects of acaracides during treatment, or through residue = accumulation in wax on: a. Behavior of drones b. Production of semen c. Viability of semen d. Behavior of queens e. Fecundity of queens f. Viability of embryos and/or brood 5. Effect of queen cell contamination, chemical composition, or = residue accumulation in wax on queen health and performance. All research proposals should be limited to ten pages, including: 1. Objective of the research. 2. Enough protocol for the reviewer to determine the feasibility of = the approach. 3. An itemized list of the costs of the research. 4. The anticipated benefit to the industry at the completion of the = study. 5. Each proposal should be limited to $10,000 or less. 6. No indirect or overhead costs may be included in the budget or = deducted from the amount awarded. Please send your proposals to: Daniel Weaver, c/o B. Weaver Apiaries, = Inc., R.R. 1, Box 256, Navasota, TX 77868, Fax 409-825-7351. Proposals must be received by April 1, 1998 for duplicating and = dissemination to the Research Committee members. The committee will = review the proposals in consultation with a panel of disinterested = research scientists and make funding decisions by July 1, 1998. Posted by: Troy Fore Executive Director American Beekeeping Federation P.O. Box 1038 Jesup, GA 31598 Ph. 912-427-4233 Fax 912-427-8447 E-Mail: troyfore@abfnet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:44:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Creasy" Subject: Youth Bee Suit Sewing Pattern Hello All! I have a 5 year old son who has been helping me with bee's since he was two. His grandma made him a make-shift bee suit when he was young by altering the pattern to a spaceman costume. Everything was ok, except the veil....she made it connecting to the collar of the suit, and it was held too close to my sons face. Anyway, he has now outgrown it, and needs a new one. I would be much obliged if someone could either send me a pattern for a youth-sized suit, or tell me where one could be obtained. Please E-mail me directly (At screasy@juno.com) with your response...I'm on Best of Bee, and 'm not sure this thread will make the cut. I know she could buy him one, but she's a sewer, and wants it to be a _special_ homemade suit from her. Thanks! Steve Creasy- (\ Maryville, Tennessee USA {|||8- Proverbs 24:13, 25:16 (/ screasy@juno.com Air Traffic Controller; Beekeeper _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:07:26 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Mike Worrell Subject: Re: Beekeeping in 3 Shallows vs 2 Deeps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey Jack, We have several lady CMBA members that I know are running e medium supers in lieu of 2 deeps with know problems. Marcia M. gets loads of honey with this set-up. I've been running a deep with 2 medium supers on top, started from nucs, and the 2nd year I move one of the supers to the bottom followed by the deep and then the other medium. I don't rotate my boxes in the spring but I do move the frames of brood from the top super down to the lower super. By spring I find that the bees have pretty much disposed of any honey in the deep box and it is easily accessable (after removing the top super) so that I can get in to make nucs or whatever. Honey production does not seem to be affected. Mike Worrell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:06:00 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Martin Badke Subject: Re: Youth Bee Suit Sewing Pattern In-Reply-To: <19980225.205600.16414.1.screasy@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (SNIP)> >Steve Creasy- (\ >Maryville, Tennessee USA {|||8- >Proverbs 24:13, 25:16 (/ >screasy@juno.com >Air Traffic Controller; Beekeeper > Hello. I just joined the list to lurk, but this made me laugh. Are you an Air Traffic Controller for a whole hive? Actually, I have taken to writing a email newsletter of science and science education resources on the internet and thought I would lurk to see the quality of this list. Looks good, but not sure it is right for my crowd. Take care, Martin ==+== ==+== ==+== ==+== ==+== Martin Badke , Edmonton, Alberta, Canada http://www.connect.ab.ca/~xdr Phone (403) 452-0284 -- Fax (403) 451-7756 FishNet ... Finding information for you on the internet. Finger Searcher ... a weekly guide to science education on the net. ==+== ==+== ==+== ==+== ==+== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: the GREEN SEASON Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The GREEN SEASON February 26, 1998 Los Banos, California Its the Green Season in California, we only have a brown and a green season and its green now. The grass is green, the hills are green and its rained enough this season to make even this desert Arab green with envy. Yep our wet season is 180 to 200 percent of normal and we still have hope of getting more maybe even setting some new records for wet over the 130 year record just eclipsed for the City, (San Francisco). Beekeepers, the majority of beekeepers in the United States who keep their bees on wheels have just finished moving their bees to the almond orchards in California, Thank's Guy's, and in fact the first semi headed back to the south just left yesterday with a load of bees as it was surplus, now that's a new record for leaving early. It will be nice around here when the rest of you leave, but.. Anyway the almonds are in FULL bloom, yep, sorry guys it don't get no better because this is not the same Heavy Bloom year as last and the experienced eye can detect the difference. (There ain't as many blooms per inch, same as there were not that many flower buds per inch months ago.) But not to worry there are enough blooms to make another record crop for the almond grower, it all depends on the weather the next ten days and it looks good. If it stays cool, just warm enough for the bees to get out a few hours a day, a good set can be expected. Not such good news for the bees but gosh when you crowd so many bees into one small, well not so small but almost contiguous and for sure contagious area, only the most optimistic novice beekeeper would expect the bees to do good anyway. Heck that's why they pay the beekeeper anyway, its called pollination and "pollination is good farming practice but seldom good beekeeping". *In the near future California Almond Growers will bee looking for honey bees from Canada and Mexico. (You read it hear first.) That what's NAFTA is all about, breaking down those artificial trade barriers and when a billion dollar industry believes they need those better bees sitting just across the boarder who are we to protest that maybe ours would be/do better if there were not so many bees as are here now. It well seem strange having all those Mexican and French speaking beekeepers looking for cells and queens to take back home in their hives. We got enough of Spanish speaking bee helpers around but will have to really beat the bush's for the French speaking one's. Maybe by then they will have their own country and won't want to take part in NAFTA as English is the official language anyway or is it Spanish, well trying to read it, its really in Geek Speek, you know like oral sex ain't adultery if you don't do it with your wife. Well I guess us old drones can't talk much as some say my Paw was my own Grandpa anyway and Mom's got the DNA to prove it. Beekeepers have had many problems getting their bees in the wet and muddy orchards and in getting in to feed them but most have got the job done, sometimes the hard way, but its done. Grafting of queen cells has started and sales of cells and queens are expected to be real good. Fire Ants, after one or more semi-loads were reported destroyed by the California State Bee Police to control hitch hiking Fire Ants some southern states beekeepers made a rush trip to the local hardware garden department and purchased cans of ant killer to knock down any hitch hiking fire ants and sure enough they had no problem finding them and did a job on them and the Bee Police could not find them. They did according to the local Modesto Bee newspaper last Sunday find another "killer" bee hive in some pipe imported from Arizona in the heart of the bee breeders clean territory, but that could have been a re-run of the last story about finding "killer" bees in Northern California. Now that all the feed cans are on those beekeepers hives with Tex-Mex bee stock and they have reported no problems with the theft of full cans of syrup as in the past. I guess there are some good things to say about having that good old Texas Regulated bee stock when your bees are two thousand miles away from home and fair game for the local bee thieves who will follow you around feeding bees and steal the full cans of syrup as fast as you put them out. One beekeeper is using two gallon buckets and figures they are too heavy for the bee thieves. Sure hope those singles can lap two gallons down before its time to move them out in about three weeks. It is too early to say much on the condition of the bees but all hives with a queen and a few frames of bees now have brood and if the indications just reported from the captive Condors laying eggs early I would expect this season in California to have the best potential of any I have seen the last 100 years or so for the beekeeper who has Sage locations for all his bees. Crops of 200 lbs or more were common the last time we had a wet season like this, about 30 years ago in this area and that was after they all swarmed one or more times. Sad that a wet year is measured not only in inches of rain but lives lost. One old time beekeepers used to say that when eight or nine drown in his local river system it would be a good Sage year and this year that loss has been reported for his local river so if he was around he would be getting the dozer ready to clean up some bee roads and clear locations later on when the rains are over. Some beekeepers are shopping for new trucks to handle the expected crop and because they need them in less then the normal 90 day delivery cycle to have time to put on their special bee beds and loaders they are finding the selection narrow. Some say the El Nino rains are over now and we are into the 3rd day of a drought, if so all above is non-operational as we still need a few inches more of rain the next two months to top off those records. Has it ever rained too much in California?, well if you build in a flood plain or on the side of a cliff, or down in a dry lake bed you would say yep, we had enough, but if you are an old beekeeper you would say more is better then less and more times then not just one more rain would have make the difference. ttul, the OLd Drone www.beenet.com , nothing there yet ! ... A comely olde man as busie as a bee. (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:57:56 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Death to AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron asked about temperatures for killing AFB spores. The following reference is one that you might start on:- Thermal Resistance of Bacillus Larvae Spores in Honey by Eleanor J. Cales= nick and Jonathan W. White Jr. J. of Bacteriology Vol 64, 1952. pages = 9-15. As listed before I am currently involved in work on looking at heat treat= ment to kill AFB spores in beekeeping equipment. The one thing we have = found to date that it is not a simple answer. Wet heat will kill spores = in a very short time. Lab trials showed a total kill on J agar plates = of 1.5 X 10,000 in 30 minutes at 100 degrees centigrade. A number of 5 = X 10,000 took 35 minutes at 100 degrees. At 110 degrees, spore numbers = of 5 X 10,000 took 30 minutes. When using a dry heat in the lab and using a higher number of spores, it = was found that after 6 hours at a number of 3.6 X 1,000,000,000 there as = no vegetative growth when cultured. Raise the number to 6.5 X 1,000,000,= 000 then there were some growth when cultured. Raising the number to 13 = X 1,000,000,000 again gave cultures. We also carried out some trials in a commercial timber drying kiln at 110= degrees and seeded 80 sites on bee boxes and we got 8 sites to give a = vegetative growth after testing. We had 6 controls outside the kiln whic= h all gave vegetative growth after testing. We are continuing with this trial so hopefully we will have more results = at a later date. In summary, AFB spores can be killed very easily in a = wet condition but in a dry condition it is much harder. In the timber = drying kilns we were able to use steam but this still is regarded as a = dry condition as the Equilibrium Mositure Content (EMC) within the hive = is still very low. I hope this is of some help, Aaron. It probably raises more questions = than it answers. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:46 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: Heat resistance of Bacillus spores Appl Environ Microbiol 1995 Oct;61(10):3633-3638 Here they looked at the effect mainly of core water content (by using mutants that had more core water in their spores I gather ) on heat and other tolerances. ---- Appl Environ Microbiol 1995 Oct;61(10):3633-3638 Spores of a Bacillus subtilis strain with an insertion mutation in peroxide. These data (i) suggest that core water content has little if any role in spore UV resistance and are consistent with binding of alpha/beta-type SASP to DNA being the major mechanism providing protection to spores from UV radiation; (ii) suggest that binding of alpha/beta-type SASP to DNA is the major mechanism unique to spores providing protection from dry heat; (iii) suggest that spore resistance to moist heat and hydrogen peroxide is affected to a large degree by the core water content, as increased core water resulted in large decreases in spore resistance to these agents; and (iv) indicate that since this decreased resistance (i.e., in dacB spores) is not associated with increased spore killing by DNA damage, spore DNA must normally be extremely well protected against such damage, presumably by the saturation of spore DNA by alpha/beta-type SASP. And according to another paper the main chemical giving Bacillus sp their resistance to heat and UV is : lipoteichoic acid. And here is some more: ---- Mikrobiologiia 1987 Nov;56(6):956-962 [Effect of initiated spores on the resistance of nongerminated resting forms of Bacillus cereus remaining in the suspension to the action of damaging agents]. The elevated resistance of a Bacillus cereus spore suspension against the action of UV was found to depend on the quantity of resting forms initiated in the suspension prior to an irradiation. The resistance against UV increased 80-50 times if 60-90% of spores were initiated in the suspension as compared to that of the original resting forms. When suspensions containing 40% of non-germinated B. cereus spores were kept at 4 degrees C for 14 days, the latter became 10 and 14 times more resistant to elevated temperature (90 degrees C) and chloramine (2.5%), respectively, as compared to control intact spores. The higher resistance of non-germinated spores against the action of physical and chemical damaging agents was registered within the entire period of experiments (over three months). This phenomenon was not observed if ca. 100% of spores were initiated in a suspension. The resistance of initiated spores against the action of UV was 40 times lower than that of B. cereus resting forms. This is all off the site: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov which gives abstacts and so on (and is I think much nicer to use than certain other famous biological abstract services) Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:47:09 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Swarm Control Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" LLoyd Spear wrote: >MOST EXPERIENCED BEEKEEPERS FEEL THAT IF THE BEES HAVE INITATED SWARMING >PROCEDURES IT IS TOO LATE TO TAKE ACTION AND THEY WILL EVENTUALLY SWARM >REGARDLESS OF THE ACTION ... I attended a lecture on beekeeping last night. The instructor recommended the Artificial Swarm (Pagden System), which is carried out after the bees show evidence of swarming intentions. I agree, that cutting out queen cells and shaking out bees on a regular basis is not the approach, for me at any rate, since I am in a suburban garden environment and the effect on the bees vis a vis the neighbours could be unacceptable. It seems to me, that the Demaree or Snelgrove systems should be used to head off the bees, or the Pagden System should be used if the bees have started the process. (My mention of the Jenter System in this context was an error on my part - thank you!.) Thanks to Aaron Morris for his account of the Snelgrove system which I came across last night when I was reading up some of the print outs I got from the BEE-L archives. It now means more to me than when I first read it. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:45:52 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dr Max Watkins Subject: Re: apistan strip life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Apistan has a shelf life of 3 years from the date of manufacture, which you should find somewher on the packaging. If you only bought them last year, chances are they're reasonably fresh so you can use the left over ones this year. Max In message , Bill Mares writes >Here's a dumb question the Apistan package doesn't answer: how long are the >strips viable? I had some left over from last summer and kept them wrapped up >in a cool basement. Can I use them this year? Thanks. -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:16:55 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Death to AFB spores In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > When using a dry heat in the lab and using a higher number of spores, it > was found that after 6 hours at a number of 3.6 X 1,000,000,000 there as > no vegetative growth when cultured. Raise the number to 6.5 X > 1,000,000,000 then there were some growth when cultured... It is not necessary to *kill* the spores. Weakening them is sufficient to provide protection. AFB has a very short window of opportunity (hours) to complete the job of infecting a larva. If sufficient growth does not ocur in the necessary time, the disease does not progress to kill the larva. (I don't know if there is any residual effect of a non-lethal AFB infection on an individual larva). As I recall from a talk by Peng, the action of oxytetracycline on AFB is not necessarily to totally inhibit the AFB germination but rather to cripple it enough that it cannot grow enough in the short time it has to kill the larva. It takes a fairly large number of fully viable spores to cause a successful and visible breakdown of AFB. The real test is in the hive IMO. On a medium, in a lab, the vegetation may not be meaningful -- unless the growth is timed and the result compared to the necessary rate of growth to cause a successful infection in the real world. After all, we inject ourselves with weakened strains of bacteria that are known to cause deadly diseases to 'innoculate' ourselves against the very same diseases. We can infer from that that only viable and robust examples of the type are a threat. Allen --- BEE-L can be searched for items in a particular date range. The following message (To the LISTSERVER-not BEE-L) retrieves only the messages since January 1997. SEARCH formic acid IN bee-l SINCE Jan 1997 The capitals indicate commands which the LISTSERVER responds to and the small letters indicate the things that you specify. (Courtesy Don Aitken) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:52:32 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Dr Max Watkins Subject: Re: Resistant Varroa Mites Comments: To: cspacek@flash.net In-Reply-To: <34E3BD63.3E10@pop.flash.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <34E3BD63.3E10@pop.flash.net>, curtis spacek writes >This problem involving the use of apistan strips vs. mavrick in the USA >is certianly due to the producers of apistan having considerably more >influence (i.e. larger campaign contributions) than the producers of >mavrick. They were one and the same - Sandoz! The difference is that Mavrik was especially formulated and registered at the EPA for use on agro crops, NOT FOR USE IN BEEHIVES! ie it is illegal and potentially hazardous to beekeepers and honey consumers to use Mavrik in beehives. THAT'S why the US Government was/is so keen to stamp it out. >As apparent evidence consider the speed and ferocity of the >Texas government to silence one individual for merely discussing the use >of mavrick while crop dusters and farmers apply pesticides during bloom >phases routinely against label instructions with no action what so ever >taken by the government.As a matter of fact a beekeeper can't get the >time of day from the government much less enforcement of pesticide laws. >if you don't own your own politician you are definitely on your own. >from information read at this site it would be a very simple task to >produce an apistan strip if the label on the mavrick bottle listed the >proper dosage. Don't try it. The company which owns the patent wouldn't be very pleased. If it were so simple anyway, why do you think it doesn't happen more often? To get the correct slow release profile with this active ingredient (which you'd have to get from Sandoz, somehow) you'd need to spend a lot of time and effort; then when/if you end up withan Apistan- like strip, there may be another problem - it's again illegal, not registered by the EPA. Stick to making Mavrik wooden strips. At least then you don't have a great personal financial cost for screwing up the beekeeping in your locality. Max >the active ingredient is the same but then apistan >couldn't make such a rediculous profit.BUT since the ONLY supplier is >also the ONLY LICENSED DISTRIBUTOR they enjoy a very enviable position >in the market place.SO how much do you think a "sole distributorship" >would cost.What if a company like sue bee could gain a sole >distributorship for all honey sold commercially.all the beekeepers would >have to sell their honey only to sue bee who would in turn sell to the >retail market.the whole thing is purely hypethetical but worth >considering. > to the poison police;I am not advocating,implying or encouraging the >illegal use of pesticides.I don't have any money,real estate,or anything >of value.however we would not hesitate to sue for mental anguish for >violation of constitutional rights to freedom of speech.there are too >many unemployed lawyers in the world and everyone needs to earn a >living.EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE WEALTHY. > ALWAYS REMEMBER MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL >AND IT ALWAYS LEADS TO SOME GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL OR CRIMINAL >ELEMENT.white water,water gate,government contracts,new football >stadiums,land developement deals,timber leases,oil leases,minority >quotas,bi-lingual education,mandatory auto insurance,H.M.Os,etc........ >the list is endless all you have to do is OPEN YOUR EYES throw off the >blinders and >FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!! > > THERE IS ALWAYS THE REMOTE POSSIBILITY THAT I AM MISTAKEN AND ALL >PEOPLE HOLDING POLITICAL OFFICES ARE JUST HARD WORKING INDIVIDUALS >TRYING TO MAKE AMERICA A BETTER PLACE FOR EVERYONE. > > "NOT" >then again maybe I just have a bad attitude due to a lousy >childhood.Hmmmmmm? -- Dr Max Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: 95 (http://www.psu.edu/dept/beehive/VT/Beesurvey.html) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD42B5.24FCC120" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD42B5.24FCC120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I have just read an article by Jennifer Finley, Scott Camazine and Maryann Frazier,of Penn State University. Article is about honeybee colony losses with detailed methods and results of various treatments for mite control and diseases. URL is attached to this message. Herb(Midnitebee) http://www.psu.edu/dept/beehive/VT/Beesurvey.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD42B5.24FCC120 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="95.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="95.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.psu.edu/dept/beehive/VT/Beesurvey.html Modified=C05B8673DE42BD01F2 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD42B5.24FCC120-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:50:37 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: 5 Frame Nucs. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT We have, for many years made up nucs to winter over till the next year, and every year had losses from 40-60% for various reasons. This year I have tried a new idea of mine and up to now ( touch wood etc.) have a 100% pass rate. In previous years we tried single box hives (ie. 10 frames), we've tried them in packs, and mounted on top full hives and still lose a number of them. Our latest idea entails some box modification but nothing beyond the average woodworker. Here's what we did. Take a regular Lang box and rout a slot with a 1/4 bit, vertically and centred, inside the box's short side and the opposite end. This takes a piece of 1/4 ply which should slide down and be flush with both top and bottom of the box, in effect making a double compartment. Now fashion a folding inner cover. Ours are hinged in the middle, which allows one side to be manipulated without disturbing the other. Normal vent and feed holes should be supplied, and for winter, top entrances are a must. The floor needs little alteration, just a piece front to back to coincide with the centre plywood. You can't allow contact between one side to the other. One final point, arrange the hive entrances at the front of the long sides. Do not under any circumstances have both entrances on the front short sides!! These alterations now will provide two compartments of 5 frames each. As a trial we made up 5 units, giving us 10 nucs, didn't want to risk too much at one go!! We used surplus Queens left over and made up 5 frame nucs and installed them, very late in the season. Once they were well established we had to empty our baby nucs for winter storage, so shook approx 24 baby nucs in front and allowed them to find a home. Here's the change. We know with our Northern climate that 5 frames wouldn't be enough stores, we also know that bees eat their way upwards. So, we added another box on top, prepared the same way with a slide in separator, full of 5 frames of honey taken from full honey supers. So in effect, we have two 10 frame hives in each wrap, 5 frames on top of 5 frames. Today is fairly warm, still below freezing, no wind and full sun. The bees are all at the entrances peeking out, so I took a gamble and had a peek under the covers. Sealed stores, and lots of bees. As I said earlier 100% pass rate, every one looking good. Soon I should add some feed, come the spring we will split again, add a Queen cell and make 10-5 frame nucs. If anyone would care to comment, or if I am not concise enough then I would appreciate discussion. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:06:42 +0200 Reply-To: pimapis@rls.roknet.ro Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Marian Pintilie Organization: - Subject: Re: Best of Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody. Is the second time when I this issue of legality. > Would anyone care to discuss the legality of BoB? Surely there must > be some question regarding republishing written matter without the > authors permission? I'd like to ask two questions - since when is need to ask permission to repeat what you heared (read), in a 'public' chat? -it seem to me that if you want copyright, you need to register your intelectual product. Does anybody registered his "contribution" to Bee-L? As a matter of fact who want to be not (eventually be included in BoB can spacify this in message and that nice person (a martir I think) who work to cut the trash , will accept the will of the writer and send his opera not In BoB but in trash! I do not subscribed to BoB, because I like flames, But I admit that i'm tired often by deleting personal messages or junk. Fot those who do not understood what mean netiquete, and remind us too often about delete key, I'l tell that is that an (oriental I think) saying : If you waste the time of the other one is like killing him a bit. Got it? Costel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Re: 5 Frame Nucs. Comments: To: beeworks@muskoka.net Your method certainly sounds like it worked well. I don't know where in Ontario you are, but unless you are near Lake Erie your winters are probably colder than our own, in Albany, NY. In 1997 I did much the same as you, and my method was patterned after the method Kurt Webster uses in central Vermont. His methods were described in a four-part article in ABJ during 1997. I will outline the differences in our methods for those who want to try either, or make further modifications. Like you, I divide a Lang. 10 frame hive in two by using a inside divider. The bottom is a solid piece of wood, with no entrances. Entrances are auger holes just below the hand hold on the short side, with each facing a different direction. I also use five frames in each nuc. Over the top of all 10 frames is a piece of burlap (untreated). This molds to the tops of the frames so bees can't go back and forth, and one side can easily be lifted for inspection, etc. without disturbing the other nuc. I started my nucs in mid-August, with purchased northern queens that had not been caged (as in bred earlier, but held for shipment in cages instead of nucs). Three frames of brood and attendant bees and two frames of sealed honey and pollen. At this time of year, the bees which will collect a crop and stores for the winter are all ready flying, so removal of the brood is no problem. By mid-October all nucs were plugged out with stores. Then I put each "hive" (2 nucs) on top of a regular hive, removing the inner cover and outer cover from the regular hive. I used 3/4" fiberboard for the bottoms of the nucs, so that becomes the tops of the regular hives. Undoubtedly, some heat from the regular hive goes through the fiberboard to the nucs. (Each regular hive has a top auger hole for ventilation.) This past Saturday I looked at the nucs (10 in all) and all have a good cluster and lot's of sealed honey. Webster said that in his climate (at least two solid weeks of -20F) the nucs only need five plugged frames to get through the winter. We aren't quite as cold as he is, and this winter was quite warm, but the five frames were clearly sufficient. My guess is that because the frames get plugged early, the bees go into the winter with a very small cluster. The queens are carnolian, so the nucs should explode come April and I will let each grow into a 10 frame hive that will hopefully produce a surplus. I hadn't thought of splitting them again, and don't think I'll try that this year but maybe in another year. -----Original Message----- From: David Eyre To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Thursday, February 26, 1998 3:54 PM Subject: 5 Frame Nucs. We have, for many years made up nucs to winter over till the next year, and every year had losses from 40-60% for various reasons. This year I have tried a new idea of mine and up to now ( touch wood etc.) have a 100% pass rate. In previous years we tried single box hives (ie. 10 frames), we've tried them in packs, and mounted on top full hives and still lose a number of them. Our latest idea entails some box modification but nothing beyond the average woodworker. Here's what we did. Take a regular Lang box and rout a slot with a 1/4 bit, vertically and centred, inside the box's short side and the opposite end. This takes a piece of 1/4 ply which should slide down and be flush with both top and bottom of the box, in effect making a double compartment. Now fashion a folding inner cover. Ours are hinged in the middle, which allows one side to be manipulated without disturbing the other. Normal vent and feed holes should be supplied, and for winter, top entrances are a must. The floor needs little alteration, just a piece front to back to coincide with the centre plywood. You can't allow contact between one side to the other. One final point, arrange the hive entrances at the front of the long sides. Do not under any circumstances have both entrances on the front short sides!! These alterations now will provide two compartments of 5 frames each. As a trial we made up 5 units, giving us 10 nucs, didn't want to risk too much at one go!! We used surplus Queens left over and made up 5 frame nucs and installed them, very late in the season. Once they were well established we had to empty our baby nucs for winter storage, so shook approx 24 baby nucs in front and allowed them to find a home. Here's the change. We know with our Northern climate that 5 frames wouldn't be enough stores, we also know that bees eat their way upwards. So, we added another box on top, prepared the same way with a slide in separator, full of 5 frames of honey taken from full honey supers. So in effect, we have two 10 frame hives in each wrap, 5 frames on top of 5 frames. Today is fairly warm, still below freezing, no wind and full sun. The bees are all at the entrances peeking out, so I took a gamble and had a peek under the covers. Sealed stores, and lots of bees. As I said earlier 100% pass rate, every one looking good. Soon I should add some feed, come the spring we will split again, add a Queen cell and make 10-5 frame nucs. If anyone would care to comment, or if I am not concise enough then I would appreciate discussion. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:43:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Curtis Seyfried Subject: Global Bee Loss Survey ?! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" After reading the Bee Loss Survey article conducted by Penn. State U. on their state's bee colony losses for the 1995-1996 winter over season. I think it is very important ecologically to have a survey performed on a large a scale as possible. As we all know bee pollination of plant-life is of paramount importance to human survival. But, unfortunately the general public, particularly city dwellers do not understand this, nor know of the declines that have been occurring. Our respective world-wide governments also are not Fully aware of this problem. This needs to be made a visible public issue before it is too late to take action. I am certain that many of the increases in diseases, and parasites have been exacerbated by environmental pollution in general, as well as global transfer of non-indigenous parasites. Globalization of transport has reached critical mass, and has little or no "Real" controls over indiscriminate spread of species. I think the Varroa and tracheal mites are just the tip of the ice berg, and a 1st WARNING of things to come. I have a great deal of database knowledge and experience. I also have experience in performing surveys and scientific study and analysis. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else, individual, group, association, etc. out there would be interested in collaborating on collecting information from as many geographical locations as possible on bee colony losses. Please contact me either through the list, IF this will be a list-wide discussion. OR Preferably personally, if the discussion and collaboration will only be among a few of us. This will save on list Traffic, which everyone else would appreciate. In recent years Global InterNet communications has proved itself, and the people who participate, as a very powerful and useful tool in dissemination information, and in MAKING CHANGES ! It always takes one 1st step to get something going. Peace and Good Health, (;->) Curtis Seyfried cseyfrie@mail.interport.net CS Enterprises POB. 110675 Brooklyn, NY. 11211 (718) 599-2458 ======================== B.Sc. - Environmental & Life Sciences, 1992, SUNY Empire State College MA. - Environmental Policy Studies and Analysis - SNYESC, 1996 Diplomas - New York University -- Paralegal Studies, 1995 Building Construction Project Management, 1988. Consultant, Researcher and Educator -- Science, Technology, Legal & Alternative Medical Research. Waste Reduction Studies & Audits. Working to promote local economic growth through the formation of cooperative businesses, revolving around food waste composting, local/regional high value agriculture, and cooperative marketing. Waste-to-fertilizer-to-food-to jobs. ======================= A quote from John Warren - "You never know when, where, how, or under what circumstances, you will see something, hear something, read something, experience something, or meet someone who will change your life forever. Look for those experiences in 1998!" "Technology is of no use to us if it is used without respect for the earth and its processes." -- Aldo Leopold ======================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:05:16 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: USDA-ARS, Hayden Bee Research Center, Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: 5 Frame Nucs. Comments: To: beeworks@muskoka.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somewhere - probably in S. Carolina, you have made Steve Taber III feel good ! He favored a similar hive when he was here in Tucson in the 1960s-70s. We had a little trouble with mold between the lids and inner canvas flap, but THEY WORK. - - John Edwards, Tucson David Eyre wrote: > > We have, for many years made up nucs to winter over till the next > year, and every year had losses from 40-60% for various reasons. This > year I have tried a new idea of mine and up to now ( touch wood etc.) > have a 100% pass rate. > In previous years we tried single box hives (ie. 10 frames), we've > tried them in packs, and mounted on top full hives and still lose a > number of them. > Our latest idea entails some box modification but nothing beyond the > average woodworker. Here's what we did. > Take a regular Lang box and rout a slot with a 1/4 bit, vertically > and centred, inside the box's short side and the opposite end. This > takes a piece of 1/4 ply which should slide down and be flush with > both top and bottom of the box, in effect making a double > compartment. Now fashion a folding inner cover. Ours are hinged in > the middle, which allows one side to be manipulated without > disturbing the other. Normal vent and feed holes should be supplied, > and for winter, top entrances are a must. > The floor needs little alteration, just a piece front to back to > coincide with the centre plywood. You can't allow contact between one > side to the other. One final point, arrange the hive entrances at the > front of the long sides. Do not under any circumstances have both > entrances on the front short sides!! > These alterations now will provide two compartments of 5 frames > each. > As a trial we made up 5 units, giving us 10 nucs, didn't want to > risk too much at one go!! We used surplus Queens left over and made > up 5 frame nucs and installed them, very late in the season. Once > they were well established we had to empty our baby nucs for winter > storage, so shook approx 24 baby nucs in front and allowed them to > find a home. > Here's the change. We know with our Northern climate that 5 frames > wouldn't be enough stores, we also know that bees eat their way > upwards. So, we added another box on top, prepared the same way with > a slide in separator, full of 5 frames of honey taken from full honey > supers. So in effect, we have two 10 frame hives in each wrap, 5 > frames on top of 5 frames. > Today is fairly warm, still below freezing, no wind and full sun. > The bees are all at the entrances peeking out, so I took a gamble > and had a peek under the covers. Sealed stores, and lots of bees. As > I said earlier 100% pass rate, every one looking good. > Soon I should add some feed, come the spring we will split again, > add a Queen cell and make 10-5 frame nucs. > If anyone would care to comment, or if I am not concise enough then > I would appreciate discussion. > > ******************************************* > The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, > Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 > Phone/fax 705-326-7171 > David Eyre, Owner. > http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks > e-mail > ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John M Thorp Subject: Re: Let's nip this in the bud, please! Don't you just love the delete key? I do for 90% of the "stuff".Everybody try to BEE nice. Take Care and GBY-John in Homestead- -also at Jesus Christ Is The Only Answer,Joshua24:15 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Troy Fore Subject: Honey Board Legislation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I have resisted posting replies to some of the off-the-wall comments on the proposal to expand the Honey Board because of the title of the BEE-L: "Discussion of Bee Biology." But the latest..... >Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:26:10 EST >From: Hervey Heywood >Subject: 2 cent board..... ..... pushed my button too hard. He posted, on behalf of Joe Rowland: >If enacted, honey producers will lose control of the NHB, commercial >beekeepers will see their Honey Board "Income Tax" soar, and the stage will >be set for increased regulation and bureaucracy industry-wide. Briefly, under the proposal, producers (and importers) will continue to pay 1-cent, but packers will now also pay 1-cent. Should they continue to get off without paying? The increased regulation will be in the form of keeping malefactors from diluting their honey with corn syrup and gaining an unfair advantage over everyone else, not to mention risking the reputation legitimate honey producers and packers have nurtured over the centuries. An important part of the proposal mandates the Honey Board spends *at least* 8% of its annual revenues for beekeeping research. Not honey marketing research -- not new product research -- *beekeeping* research. Under the proposal 8% would be about $500,000. There is no way the beekeepers can lose control of the Honey Board. Producer members have to hold 50% of the seats. The proposal has been endorsed by American Beekeeping Federation, American Honey Producers Association, National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, and Sioux Honey Association. Finally, it will have to endorsed by the assessment-paying members of the industry before it goes into effect. The legislation in Congress simply lets it come to a vote of the industry. Ask yourself: Why don't the opponents want to allow the industry to vote on the proposal? After a thorough airing at the ABF Convention, it was endorsed unanimously. If you want more information, check out the ABF website: abfnet.org or contact me for more information. Let's let the people who will be paying the bill decide. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Troy Fore Executive Director American Beekeeping Federation P.O. Box 1038, Jesup, GA 31598-1038 Ph. 912-427-4233 Fax 912-427-8447 Email: troyfore@abfnet.org Home Page: http://www.abfnet.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:45:29 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Hemacytometer Comments: cc: Eric Abell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I've promised to do nosema checks this year and I guess if I'm going to do them, I should do them right. Especially since I paid good money for a hemacytometer a couple of years ago. Eric offered to do the microscope work, but I figure I shouldn't take advantage of his generosity. He has his own to do. Trouble is that I can't find my notes on how to use the hemacytometer. Then I searched and searched and, although I found a really good post or two on nosema, I came up empty with regards the use of a hemacytometer. I understand that to determine what the level of infection per bee, the guts of 25 bees are placed into 25 ml of water and macerated, then shaken. After the debris settles, a drop of the broth is placed on the hemacytometer, the slide cover put over it, and the spores, if any are counted in the squares under a microscope (power? around 300?) , but I forget the details and also the math. I remember that in the course Eric & I took, that we macerated the whole abdomen for simplicity (maybe it was the whole bee -- can't recall). Can someone give me a refresher? I'm sure the extension people have this wired and it would be of general interest to the group. Allen PS: On the subject of nosema, there are several posts of particular interest in the logs. Of them, #2817 is truly impressive -- and fascinating. --- You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute a key phrase for "key phrase" above. and remember to use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:04:35 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1 cent for packers, and 1 cent for producers. I pack my own honey. Sounds like 2 cents tax for me. A penny here, a penny there. What the hay. I'm wondering about that clause that allows you to put in a claim for advertising of your own honey. What isn't claimed will be used to advertise U.S. honey? Oh really? We'll see. Troy Fore wrote: > I have resisted posting replies to some of the off-the-wall comments on > the proposal to expand the Honey Board because of the title of the BEE-L: > "Discussion of Bee Biology." But the latest..... > > >Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:26:10 EST > >From: Hervey Heywood > >Subject: 2 cent board..... > > ..... pushed my button too hard. He posted, on behalf of Joe Rowland: > > >If enacted, honey producers will lose control of the NHB, commercial > >beekeepers will see their Honey Board "Income Tax" soar, and the stage will > >be set for increased regulation and bureaucracy industry-wide. > > Briefly, under the proposal, producers (and importers) will continue to > pay 1-cent, but packers will now also pay 1-cent. Should they continue to > get off without paying? > > The increased regulation will be in the form of keeping malefactors from > diluting their honey with corn syrup and gaining an unfair advantage over > everyone else, not to mention risking the reputation legitimate honey > producers and packers have nurtured over the centuries. An important part > of the proposal mandates the Honey Board spends *at least* 8% of its > annual revenues for beekeeping research. Not honey marketing research -- > not new product research -- *beekeeping* research. Under the proposal 8% > would be about $500,000. > > There is no way the beekeepers can lose control of the Honey Board. > Producer members have to hold 50% of the seats. The proposal has been > endorsed by American Beekeeping Federation, American Honey Producers > Association, National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, and Sioux > Honey Association. > > Finally, it will have to endorsed by the assessment-paying members of the > industry before it goes into effect. The legislation in Congress simply > lets it come to a vote of the industry. Ask yourself: Why don't the > opponents want to allow the industry to vote on the proposal? After a > thorough airing at the ABF Convention, it was endorsed unanimously. > > If you want more information, check out the ABF website: abfnet.org or > contact me for more information. > > Let's let the people who will be paying the bill decide. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Troy Fore > Executive Director > American Beekeeping Federation > P.O. Box 1038, Jesup, GA 31598-1038 > Ph. 912-427-4233 Fax 912-427-8447 > Email: troyfore@abfnet.org > Home Page: http://www.abfnet.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:12:58 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Pollen loads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today I went out to gather some firewood. (what does that have to do with bees?) WAIT A MINUTE!! I went to get my cart and while I was close I looked at my bee hives. I knew the temperature was 46 F so the bees were not flying. I was gone for about one hour. When I came back the bees were flying and they were bringing in loads of pollen. That means that the bees can get a good size load of pollen and be back in less then an hour. I wonder how long it does take and how many loads they can make in an hour or a day and does this apply to necter as well? I bet Jerry B. at Montana Univ. can answer this. billy b ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:08:51 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:16 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: > My friend Troy Fore said..... >I have resisted posting replies to some of the off-the-wall comments on >the proposal to expand the Honey Board because of the title of the BEE-L: >>Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:26:10 EST >>From: Hervey Heywood >>Subject: 2 cent board..... >..... pushed my button too hard. He posted, on behalf of Joe Rowland: >Briefly, under the proposal, producers (and importers) will continue to >pay 1-cent, but packers will now also pay 1-cent. Should they continue to >get off without paying? I just wonder who is getting off with what, and who is paying what, if the producer pays and the packer pays, it looks to me like maybe it's the producer who is going to be paying and paying and then the question becomes paying for what, deeper pile in the carpets? >The increased regulation will be in the form of keeping malefactors from >diluting their honey with corn syrup and gaining an unfair advantage over >everyone else The last time I checked this was well covered under the Federal, and State Rules, Regulations, and Laws we have today. Maybe if there is a problem the appropriate Federal or State agency should be consulted. Surely the additional taxing of one's self should not make a difference when it comes to law enforcement. >not to mention risking the reputation legitimate honey >producers and packers have nurtured over the centuries. Why would this risk be different by taxing beekeepers more or less? Maybe if Opra gets hold of some of that bad honey she will do a show on how bad beekeepers are mis-treating their bees but that's not new news as anyone who uses the Internet can find out in a short session of searching, > An important part of the proposal mandates the Honey Board spends *at least* 8% of its >annual revenues for beekeeping research. Not honey marketing research -- >not new product research -- *beekeeping* research. Under the proposal 8% >would be about $500,000. That is nice and I can guarantee that all well be spent, and all will be back for more, as beekeeping research funding is the original black hole. If anyone can name 10 useful beekeeping tools, management schemes, PC software, or any other useful beekeeping advancement recognized and used by a bare majority of US beekeepers as being the product of so called "public funded" beekeeping" research in the last 20 or even 30 years I will do my best to match the $500,000. myself. I am sure all of this pie in the sky "beekeeping" research money will end up replacing tax payer funded programs and I am for that but not if I have to replace it with my own limited funds after writing that big $500,000 check I am a little short. >There is no way the beekeepers can lose control of the Honey Board. >Producer members have to hold 50% of the seats. The proposal has been >endorsed by American Beekeeping Federation, American Honey Producers >Association, National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, and Sioux >Honey Association. Except for the honey Packers and Stealers I have over the years belonged to all of the above and there endorsement of new taxes, new regulations, and new ways to spend the other guys money is well known to those in the beekeeping industry. Its sad but true that what they say about proposed laws has not always turned out to be the way it is was in the real world. >Finally, it will have to endorsed by the assessment-paying members of the >industry before it goes into effect. The legislation in Congress simply >lets it come to a vote of the industry. Ask yourself: Why don't the >opponents want to allow the industry to vote on the proposal? After a >thorough airing at the ABF Convention, it was endorsed unanimously. >Let's let the people who will be paying the bill decide. Maybe there is a reason why these things are political and not left up to the heavy weights in the bee industry alone to decide, at least the so called opposition or better put the "minority" gets a voice when it comes to Congress in the USA and you don't even have to be a honey producer. I think it's called Democrazy or something like that. If all the above organizations have all this industry support then why even have a government program. If together we all truly believe then there is no reason to involve the government to spend anyone's money other then our own and we would not have to read the "off the wall" comments of any beekeepers. IMHO, I honestly believe that their is little fiscal justification for even the mandatory honey money that is spent now and because of it private label promotion is greatly retarded in the US, and national brand recognition is held by one label...SUE BEE, and they can't compete with the importers and the generic honey promotion which is not fair as they have to pay the same and then pay to promote their own domestic production and label. ttul, the OLd Drone "If your crop doesn't come in, swim out to it!" El Nino >If you want more information, check out the ABF website: abfnet.org or >contact me for more information. >Troy Fore >Executive Director >American Beekeeping Federation >P.O. Box 1038, Jesup, GA 31598-1038 >Ph. 912-427-4233 Fax 912-427-8447 >Email: troyfore@abfnet.org >Home Page: http://www.abfnet.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Teresa Garcma Subject: Two queen colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Any of you has experience in two queen colony management? I=B4d like to=20 know if it has any advantages. Thank you, Tere ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:23:58 -1000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Troy Fore writes----- > I have resisted posting replies to some of the off-the-wall comments on > the proposal to expand the Honey Board because of the title of the BEE-L: > "Discussion of Bee Biology." But the latest..... Maybe you should have kept on resisting as I hope you have opened a huge can of worms and that they all come out and stop the legislation before it is too late. > ..... pushed my button too hard. He posted, on behalf of Joe Rowland: Joe Rowland has a very good article in the February issue of American Bee Journal and many important points have been clearly articulated. This legislation has been developed by the packers and the producers who are known to bee grass roots and unorganized are about to let this become the law of the land. The one penny which is paid now by the " First Handler" is in fact paid by the producer in lowered offering prices. You know $.63 per lb. instead of $.64 per lb.The proposed increase of one penny per lb. will for sure be an additional tax on the producer PLUS a huge intervention by GIANT uncle government into the business of honey production. Why in the world would honey producers want another one penny tax. Question Where is the money on this issue??? Honey packers and government.Honey packers because they will get the lion's share of any benefit of the National Honey Board just like they do today.And government wanting to get into everybodys business. > There is no way the beekeepers can lose control of the Honey Board. > Producer members have to hold 50% of the seats. The proposal has been > endorsed by American Beekeeping Federation, American Honey Producers > Association, National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, and Sioux > Honey Association. Yea so what . These are the same organizations that sit back while the Honey BEE ACT OF 1922 gets abolished and gutted by fradulant and illegal rule making by the USDA to allow NZ bees to transit USA territory (HAWAII) and will be happy for these same foreign bees to be allowed into the US there by effectivly turning over the destiny of US beekeepers to a foreign nation. If there is so mich wide spread support of this assesment program why not a volunteer assement program controlled by producers.Mandatory assement on imports for the privilage of selling in America. > Finally, it will have to endorsed by the assessment-paying members of the > industry before it goes into effect. The legislation in Congress simply > lets it come to a vote of the industry. Ask yourself: Why don't the > opponents want to allow the industry to vote on the proposal? After a > thorough airing at the ABF Convention, it was endorsed unanimously. Why does the oppisition resist bringing this to a vote.Why do we need to have a vote on a new tax system enforced by the federal agents. This whole program has been put together by the BIG BOYS who understand the system and how to play the system. The National Honey Board in it's present order serves the packers and could care less about producers. I know what they do and do not do. I am a producers/packer who saw the light several years ago and saw the huge support system available to those who play ball with the NHB.I have played ball and have been turned off to the slant of the organization in favor of packers at the expense of producers. If you want to help stop this packer oriented legislation write your representative in WAshington this week and don't delay. Remember the packers know their way around D C and will be sure to let their feelings known.The American Honey Producers could have a louder voice IF they come to ACTION. NOW IS THE TIME FOR ACTION. Also write Robert Smith, Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture,1301 Longworth HOB, Washington, D.C. 20515-6001 ; Thad Cochran, Chairperson of the Agriculture and Ruarl Development Committee,SD-136, Washington,DC 20510 and also Secretary Dan Glickman, Department of Agriculture,14th. and Independence Ave.S.W.,Washington, D C 20250. - Walter Lord, make my words be as sweet as Honey, for Tomorrow I may have to eat Them Walter & Elisabeth Patton 808-964-5401 Hawaii Time ? Hale Lamalani B & B Hawaiian Honey House House of Heavenly Light Beekeepers & Honeypackers Bed & Breakfast and Honey Bee Dude Ranch www.hawaiihoney.com hihoney@hawaiihoney.com 27-703 A. Ka`ie`ie Rd., Papa`ikou, Hawaii 96781 " The Beehive, the Fountain of Youth and Health " ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: AFB Spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 <<<<>>>>> Try a fourth, Honey Bee Pathology by Lesley Bailey. He suggests immersin= g the equipment in paraffin wax for ten minutes at a temperature of 150 degrees Centigrade, hardly suitable for the small beekeeper in his garden= shed. He lists other methods of fumigation with various chemicals, none = of which is applicable for the hobbyist. In England there is no treatment allowed and the rule is burn all combs and honey and if the main hive parts are worth saving, scorch them well with a flame gun. = Sidpul@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:49:16 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: Re: spore death temps Hi All Just before anybody flames me for posting about other Bacillus species, I just thought I would point out I refferrd to them as they use roughly the same techniques for avoiding heat/UV etc. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey Standard Disclaimer applies to this post. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:08:59 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: capped cells In-Reply-To: <0c3144947181928UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <0c3144947181928UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>, Lloyd Spear writes > the other bees do not open the cell. Not quite true. If you have ever seen a colony which is infested with varroa mites, you will see that the bees do SOMETIMES uncap the cells. I believe that they will also uncap cells when foulrood is present. -- Paul Walton Email : Paul@adrem.demon.co.uk Bedfordshire. England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:01:34 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Hemacytometer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen - Try the following reference:- Cantwell, G. (1970). Standard methods for counting Nosema spores. Amer. = Bee Journal 110: 222-223 Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:06:45 PST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Supering hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whilst looking for the hemacytometer reference for Allen, I came across = the following reference which may be of use in the debate. I haven't rea= d it myself so am not sure what it says. Rinderer, T., Baxter, J., Carter, C., Mornhinveg, L. (1979). Empty combs= stimulates honey production. Amer. Bee Journal. 119 (1) : 40-42. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:32:54 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tere, I have a two queen colony. It's called a Kerkoff (sp?) It has two separate hive bodies one facing opposite of each other. The difference is that above the queen excluders of each hive they both share the same honey shallows for surplus honey. the pheromones (sp?) of both hives mix so there isn't any fighting of the two hives. This works out very well since they make honey like crazy. I'll send you a photo of it if you would like. They are made in Canada and cost about $300.00 US dollars for the basic hive. I would have more then one if I could afford it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:33:47 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: 5 Frame Nucs. In-Reply-To: <19980226205201098.AAB168@Default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT (Note: In keeping with this author's apparent wishes, I no longer am relaying his articles or quotes of them to Best of Bee. A shame, I think, since he occasionally has a good piece -- like the one quoted here (without permission?)). > We have, for many years made up nucs to winter over till the next > year, and every year had losses from 40-60% for various reasons. This > year I have tried a new idea of mine and up to now ( touch wood etc.) > have a 100% pass rate. A good idea too, and one that is well proven. Several years ago (5+) Barrie Termeer received a Farming for the Future grant as I recall, and did a similar project over several years here in Alberta. He published the results in Alberta Bee News under the title "Verticle Nucs" (I think BN was still called the 'Skeptic' at the time). The system has been in use, I understand, by Tom Hegan for quite a few years too. I think that after the first year Barrie went to separate boxes for each half of the super, using a thin wall on the inner side but stacked them to look like a standard double brood chamber hive. I haven't personally rtied it, although I have the equipment for at least 100 hives specially made for this purpose that came with an outfit I bought 7 or more years ago. The boxes are 3/4" wider than standard dimension because it can be hard to jam all ten frames into the box, five at a time, with a divider, and still have a little room on the sides of each half. The previous owner had run the vertical half hives as two queen colonies by placing an excluder on top of the second box and adding supers, then wintered then with a tight lid to keep the queens apart. After a while he had given up, and twisted the second over a bit to let one queen run through the whole works. I switched to standard dimension boxes and these beautiful boxes go unused. I plan to nail plywood on the bottom, drill auger holes, and use them for 5 frame nuc boxes. Actually I appreciate the reminder, since I am thinking of installing early packages into some as a test. Barrie no longer runs verticle nucs AFAIK. I think he decided it was too labour intensive changing everything back and forth and having all the extra equipment on the truck. Maybe he is reading this and will comment. > In previous years we tried single box hives (ie. 10 frames), we've tried > them in packs, and mounted on top full hives and still lose a number of > them. Singles are very successful out here. If they are made in June as 1 or two frame nucs and fed, they will be in two boxes by fall and winter normally. Some in the Peace winter them as singles indoors as does Neil Vanderput in Carmen, Manitoba. IMO, the single biggest secret in making small nucs to winter is to make them *early*. The next thing is to be sure they *never* become plugged during the summer. If they do, they will die during winter. If they are fed and expand to doubles they will be the most useful and the least trouble, however anything over 6 combs *can* work. See the Fairview site for 6 frame nucs indoors http://www.internode.net/honeybee/fairview/winterin.htm Failing that, if nucs for wintering are made in the fall, make sure that they are made *much* fuller with bees than you would think necessary. Singles year round outdoors have also been very successful in some cases: there was an article in ABJ some time back about some fellas in Saskatchewan who are having great success, both in honey and wintering, but I personally have not found them to be a good as doubles. (see the logs). FWIW, I bought 125 wintered singles in May at Glanworth ON (near London) about 25 years ago and they had come through at very close to 100% success in wooden wintering boxes using wood chips. (Harrells queens). > Now fashion a folding inner cover. Ours are hinged in the middle, which > allows one side to be manipulated without disturbing the other. We have used Plastic, sacking, canvas, or an inner cover with a slat down the middle. Lately on divided boxes (we have quite a few two and three and 5 frame nucs that use divided boxes) we use our pillows described previously. The hinged lid sounds ideal, however canvas is cheap and folds back well. > One final point, arrange the hive entrances at the front of the long > sides. Do not under any circumstances have both entrances on the front > short sides!! We have never found this to be a consideration and a often have hive entrances immediately adjacent or just drill auger holes in the front. It is better to drill on in each end for nucs if there is no 'front' or back. YMMV. Some types of bees are much less successful at orienting and drift badly. So I'd do what works for you. > If anyone would care to comment, or if I am not concise enough then I > would appreciate discussion. This is a successful, proven management system. It has a number of possibilities and is well suited to a small to medium sized operation. Back issues of Bee News may be available from the ABA office in Edmonton. Website: http://www.albertabeekeepers.org/ My comments are based on my experience in the Canadian prairies. Wintering in Southern Ontario can be easier and less stressful. In fact there is a part of Ontario that is as far south as part of California. Nonetheless, Muskoka (where my ancestors homesteaded and my dad wintered his bees) is farther north and can be quite similar to Alberta in terms of temperatures, so the Alberta experience may apply. Hope this is useful Allen You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute several words for "key phrase" above. and use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase. Single words do not need quotes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Anthony M Jadczak Subject: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Excellent challenge! And great door prize! You may need to include colleges and universities and go back more than 30 years. One that quickly comes to mind is extender patties 1971-74 Wilson, Gilliam, Argauer, #2- bee insect diet formulas, #3- nosema work (I don't know who gets the credit for fumidil, however) Can B-listers come up with 10? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:18:32 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Don't quote me on this... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT At the risk of beating this horse to death, and in hopes of beating excessive quoting to death I offer the following observation. The BEE-L digest from yesterday (Feb 26 to Feb 27) contained 19 posts. The post from David Eyre regarding 5 frame nucs was requoted in it's entirety twice, as was the post from Troy Fore regarding Honey Board Legislation. Additionally there was a requote of the entire Apistan/Mavrik post from Feb 25. Removing this requoted material reduced the digest by 20%! The assertion, "If you don't like it use the delete key!" is fine as far as the extraneous stuff in personal mail boxes go, and in fact, I have trained my eye to skip over requoted material. If there's a > in the first column I don't read it. Thankfully my memory is good enough that I can remember something I read yesterday. But delete buttons and well trained eyes do nothing to address volume in downloads, volume in storage and general pollution of the BEE-L archives! I realize that if one never searches the archives that from their point of view this is a moot point. "It's not my problem, why should I care?" Excessive quoters should care because excessive quoting creates an UNNECESSARY(!) problem for at least some of the BEE-L population, and the UNNECESSARY(!) problem costs real people REAL MONEY! PLEASE folks, even if this is not of concern to you personally, IT IS a concern. Rather than requoting an entire article, use the "Subject:" line! David Eyre's 5 nuc post was a very good post, but it did not warrant being published three times. One could simply have included a "Subject: 5 frame nucs ala David Eyre" line and added their comments. I'm not picking on Dave or those who responded, I thank them for their thoughtful posts and am also glad to have them to make my point that in this particular example, 173 lines of responses could have been reduced to 50 - a 66% savings!!! TWO THIRDS!!!!!! I receive many off-list praises of BEE_L (must appreciated, thank you) and many offers to assist if possible. Please realize that minimizing requoted material is something EVERYONE can do to make BEE-L a much better and richer list. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:11:16 -0500 Reply-To: beeworks@muskoka.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Eyre Organization: The Bee Works Subject: Re: 5 Frame Nucs. In-Reply-To: <0322c5736221a28UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 26 Feb 98 at 17:38, Lloyd Spear wrote: > Your method certainly sounds like it worked well. I don't know > where in Ontario you are, but unless you are near Lake Erie your > the differences in our methods for those who want to try either, or > I also use five frames in each nuc. Over the top of all 10 frames > is a piece of burlap (untreated). This molds to the tops of the > all nucs were plugged out with stores. Then I put each "hive" (2 > nucs) on top of a regular hive, removing the inner cover and outer > cover from the regular hive. I used 3/4" fiberboard for the bottoms > of the nucs, so that becomes the tops of the regular hives. > Undoubtedly, some heat from the regular hive goes through the > fiberboard to the nucs. (Each regular hive has a top auger hole for > as cold as he is, and this winter was quite warm, but the five > frames were clearly sufficient. My guess is that because the frames > get plugged early, the bees go into the winter with a very small If I may make one or two observations. While Lloyd's methods are similar there are some points completely opposite. We winter most of our hives in 3 deeps, now add 2 more for the nucs and you'd need a ladder to service them. Our new idea is a free standing two boxer that can be handled easily. Using burlap as an inner cover was rejected. Two major reasons. It drops down onto the top bars and effectively seals off the top entrance. Secondly the bees tend to propolis the burlap preventing upward ventilation, which we find is essential. For example, when setting these out in the fall we only had available ventilated roofs for 4 out of the 5 we were working on. On opening the un-ventilated one a few days later the roof above the inner cover was dripping wet. From the description it sounds as if Lloyds bottom boards of the nucs are solid fiber board, in which case there would be no heat transmission upwards from the lower unit. It has been suggested that I have a "bee in my bonnet" regarding ventilation of hives. Maybe so, all I do know, since I introduced ventilated tops our hives are mould free and dryer. ******************************************* The Bee Works, 9 Progress Dr, Unit 2, Orillia, Ontario, L3V 6H1 Phone/fax 705-326-7171 David Eyre, Owner. http://www.muskoka.net/~beeworks e-mail ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:57:05 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: soyflour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From previous discussion of soyflour on this list, I have been convinced that I should choose non fat soyflour over full fat (which is what I have used in the past). Non fat is cheaper than full fat as well, so hey, if they don't need that fat anyway, or if it causes any problems... I can buy soybean meal at the grain elevator for far less than I can buy bags of non fat soyflour at a bakery supplier, but I thought hey I'll splurge and get nice fine stuff. I was probably thinking of Andy's posts about bee's drinking pollen, and the importance of particle size. When I got the flour I phoned the mill just to make sure it was "expeller process". Well, it turns out that this expensive flour is made with hexane extraction because it yields a lower fat flour. So I gave it back today. Then I phoned the grain elevator and they made some calls, and while they could not really find out if soybean meal is "expeller process" or not, they were able to assure me that the oil is extracted mechanically and without solvents. So is there any reason not to take the soybean meal AND GRIND IT FINER and use that in my pollen extender? And does anyone have any good suggestions on how to grind it? I have a friend who has a stone mill but he was afraid of gumming up his stones. I think that since the oil is out it wouldn't be too bad, but I guess the mechanical process does leave about 8% oil. I might put some pressure on him to try it. He still me owes some on some bakery grade honey :) Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:01:45 +0200 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD43B2.26E31D60" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD43B2.26E31D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beekeeper Its interesting. Could I get these photoes ? Sincerely Yours Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt http://www.online.lt/indexs.htm 55 Deg North, 24 Deg East ---------- From: Beekeeperc Sent: Friday, February 27, 1998 3:32 PM To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Tere, I have a two queen colony. It's called a Kerkoff (sp?) It has two separate hive bodies one facing opposite of each other. The difference is that above the queen excluders of each hive they both share the same honey shallows for surplus honey. the pheromones (sp?) of both hives mix so there isn't any fighting of the two hives. This works out very well since they make honey like crazy. I'll send you a photo of it if you would like. They are made in Canada and cost about $300.00 US dollars for the basic hive. 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After the debris settles, a drop of the broth is placed on the hemacytometer, the slide cover put over it, and the spores, if any are counted in the squares under a microscope (power? around 300?) , but I forget the details and also the math. I remember that in the course Eric & I took, that we macerated the whole abdomen for simplicity (maybe it was the whole bee -- can't recall). Hi Allen, Crush the whole bee. It is not neccessary to wait until the debris settles. There are 16 groups of squares on the hemacytometer. Each group has 16 small squares. Count the spores in 5 groups of those 16 groups of squares. By doing this, you have counted the number of spores in 80 of the small squares. Its probably best to count the 4 corner groups and the middle one. ex. if you count 8 spores in 80 small squares. I was once given a complicated formula to figure out the spores/bee but I found it was easier to just multiply the #of spores above by 50000. In the ex. above, 8 spores X 50000 = 400000 spores/bee. I think I use 400X on my microscope. I hope this helps Kevin Christensen Mallaig, Alberta, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:38:15 CST6CDT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BLANE WHITE Organization: Minnesota Dept of Agriculture Subject: Re: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt etc. In-Reply-To: <"0430734F6CDD523D*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=ccmail/s=Jadczak/g=Anthony/i=M/"@MHS> Hi all, Three more that come to mind to add to Anthony's list are terramycin, apistan, and menthol. The orginal work in the US on all of these was done by USDA. That makes six so far any others to add?? blane ****************************************** Blane White State Apiary Inspector Minnesota Department of Agriculture 90 W Plato Blvd St Paul, MN 55107 http://www.mda.state.mn.us phone 612-296-0591 fax 612-297-2504 blane.white@state.mn.us ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:44:59 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT search bee-l top 10 bee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:53:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Curtis Seyfried Subject: New Mite AND Nosema Therapy ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have recently received some information on a soil, livestock and poultry farming, composting and agricultural process developed in Japan by Dr. Teruo Higa at the University of Ryukus, in Okinawa, Japan. It is being studied by the USDA and the Rhodale Institute in the USA. It is called EM, for effective microoganisms. One of its benefits is the improvement of the health of livestock when it is used in their housing facilities to treat their waste runoffs and in their feed. It has been found to eliminate digestive disorders in livestock when included in their feed. Additionally, it has been found to INTERRUPT the life cycle from egg to larvae and from larvae to adult of all animal PARASITES, such as flies, worms, MITES and ticks, etc. Thusly it reduces and many times eliminates parasite populations. EM TECHNOLOGY Effective Microorganisms or EM is a mixed culture of beneficial microorganisms ( Primarily photosynthetic & lactic acid bacteria, yeast , actinomycetes, and fermenting fungi) that can be applied as an inoculant to increase the microbial diversity of soil, reduce odors in livestock waste runnoff, improve livestock health, eliminate parasites, compost food wastes, and purify waste contaminated water, among other uses. This in turn, can improve soil and animal quality and health, which enchances the growth, yield, and quality of crops and livestock. The technology behind the concept of Effective Microorganisms and it's practical application was developed by Professor Teruo Higa at the University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa, Japan. It uses a culture of anabiotic microorganisms that are commonly found in miso fermentation, yogurt and cheese culturing and composting. It has the effect of quickly fermenting food waste into a stable form that can then be mixed into soil where it will compost fully and also quickly. It has the additional effect of holding the nutritional content of the food waste and releasing it into the soils when it composts there. It is called EM for effective microoganisms. Additional effects which BEE-L might be interested in are that these cultures while being used in livestock production and agriculture have been found to reduce plant and livestock disease and PARASITES. EM's use and presence naturally stimulates soil health, plant and animal immunity and inhibits growth of parasitic species. The inhibition of parasites seems to come from its inhibition of decomposition processes, fermentation and preservation instead. This seems to interupt parasites homones when they are in the egg or larval stages preventing them from coming to maturity. There has been a great deal of scientific research done on this in Japan and SE. Asia. Also begining in the USA. This might be an additional manner of fighting Varroa and tracheal mites as well as nosema ? The contact for the US manufacturer and research institution is : Do Not contact me for information, contact the compay below directly if you are interested. EM Technologies, Inc. 1802 West Grant Road, Suite 122 Tuscon, AZ. 85745 1-800461-5296 FAX : (520) 629-9039 E-Mail : 104066.1414@compuserve.com My contact there is Monica Durand I am reading their books, "An Earth Saving Revolution", Terou Higa. and "Kyusei Nature Farming". The later is a printing of the 3rd International conference on Kyusei Nature Farming and EM's use, held here in the US, sponsored by the USDA in 1993, there was a later conference held in France in 1995. Lots of scientic studies. Peace and Good Health, (;->) Curtis Seyfried cseyfrie@mail.interport.net CS Enterprises POB. 110675 Brooklyn, NY. 11211 (718) 599-2458 ======================== B.Sc. - Environmental & Life Sciences, 1992, SUNY Empire State College MA. - Environmental Policy Studies and Analysis - SNYESC, 1996 Diplomas - New York University -- Paralegal Studies, 1995 Building Construction Project Management, 1988. Consultant, Researcher and Educator -- Science, Technology, Legal & Alternative Medical Research. Waste Reduction Studies & Audits. Working to promote local economic growth through the formation of cooperative businesses, revolving around food waste composting, local/regional high value agriculture, and cooperative marketing. Waste-to-fertilizer-to-food-to jobs. ======================= A quote from John Warren - "You never know when, where, how, or under what circumstances, you will see something, hear something, read something, experience something, or meet someone who will change your life forever. Look for those experiences in 1998!" "Technology is of no use to us if it is used without respect for the earth and its processes." -- Aldo Leopold ======================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:16:20 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Tom Speight Subject: Re: AFB Spores In-Reply-To: <12020051825666@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <12020051825666@systronix.net>, Excerpts from BEE-L writes >Honey Bee Pathology by Lesley Bailey. He suggests immersing >the equipment in paraffin wax for ten minutes at a temperature of 150 >degrees Centigrade, Does this kill them or just seal them in?? -- Tom Speight South Lakes Cumbria UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:27:36 -0600 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: RICHARD BARNES Subject: Re: New Mite AND Nosema Therapy ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:53 PM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote: > I have recently received some information on a soil, livestock and poultry >farming, composting and agricultural process developed in Japan by Dr. >Teruo Higa at the University of Ryukus, in Okinawa, Japan. It is being >studied by the USDA and the Rhodale Institute in the USA. It is called EM, >for effective microoganisms. > > >Peace and Good Health, (;->) >Curtis Seyfried cseyfrie@mail.interport.net CS Enterprises POB. 110675 > Brooklyn, NY. 11211 (718) 599-2458 >======================== My question is: Since honey bees are insects and go through a larvea stage and need similar hormones to paracitic inscets/aracnids for maturing, will this stuff kill my bees by inhibiting the growth process? Richard Barnes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:39:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Service requests vs list postings, one mo' time! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Aaron Morris wrote: > search bee-l top 10 bee Dear Mr. Morris, Won't you EVER learn!? Service requests go to the server (LISTSERV@cnsibm.albany.edu), postings go to the list (BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu). How many times do I have to tell you!?!?!? You should take the rest of the week off and try 'n find a clue! Sincerely, BEE-L Owner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Curtis Seyfried Subject: Re: New Mite AND Nosema Therapy ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:27 PM 2/27/98 -0600, you wrote: >My question is: Since honey bees are insects and go through a larvea stage >and need similar hormones to paracitic inscets/aracnids for maturing, will >this stuff kill my bees by inhibiting the growth process? > >Richard Barnes Richard , I do not thimk so. There is a difference between decomposition and parasitic organisms and non-decompositional organisms. You can ask the company, they are not just a manufacturing plant, but a non-profit research institution. Request that they contact Dr. Higa for conformation, he is an agricultural specialist. They also have an interest in seeing there technology work and many times provide technical assistance and training. This could be a big area for them so I am sure they will be cautious and helpful. Peace and Good Health, (;->) Curtis Seyfried cseyfrie@mail.interport.net POB. 110675 Brooklyn, NY. 11211 (718) 599-2458 ======================== A quote from John Warren - "You never know when, where, how, or under what circumstances, you will see something, hear something, read something, experience something, or meet someone who will change your life forever. Look for those experiences in 1998!" "Technology is of no use to us if it is used without respect for the earth and its processes." -- Aldo Leopold ======================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:53:43 GMT Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: 5 Frame Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All I have arranged with a beekeeper/carpenter friend of mine to make such a Nuc based on a standard National Brood Box. By trawling through various bee books, I learned of some ideas which I am incorporating. 1. I have permanent mouse guards on each entrance consisting of zinc coated nails driven vertically 5/16 in. (8mm) apart in each entrance. 2. E B Wedmore's book 'A Manual on Beekeeping' recommends that 3mm holes should be drilled in the separator boards, to mingle the scents of the Nucs. Thus if you wish to move a comb from one Nuc to another you will not have any problems, since the bees will all have the same scent. 3. The separator boards are not rebated into the floor. They are a tight fit and I believe that they will stay in place because of the pressure of the frames. Tests carried out support this but I cannot say what changes may occur to the wood dimensions in the Nuc. (I hope I am right about this!). I have done it this way to enable me to have three nucs if required. (This part is pure experimentation). 4. I have incorporated metal sliders in each of the entrances to give flexibility in setting the size of the entrance, and also to close off one of the entrances when the arrangement is being used for 2 Nucs rather than 3. 5. Wedmore also recommends that a hole be drilled in the base and fitted with wire gauze on both sides to allow warmth to rise from the colony below, and not to allow the bees to make contact. I should be grateful for feedback, as my friend has just completed the Nuc and I can have changes incorporated. Thanks for any input, and I hope the above proves of some benefit. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Deg 16' 12.8" North Longitude 06 Deg 9' 44.9" West 3 miles - 5 km from the Irish Sea Mild winters - cool to moderately warm summers. Being Ireland, it rains a lot! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:11:08 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: GImasterBK Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tere: All young people have to try something "different". About 50 years ago, I set up 4 colonies for two queen trials following everything written that I could read, particularly ABC&XYZ in those days. I fought through that "mess" for 3 years and NEVER EVER AGAIN. Colony management and manipulation and KEEPING THOSE TWO QUEENS SEPARATED is a major problem and a back-breaker because of height. Also, you are working off a ladder; and then I was a young man with help from my wife. HOWEVER, NONE OF WHAT I HAVE SAID IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND HERE IS WHY. Bee people, researchers, and scientists like myself have proven over and over again that one good queen, properly managed by a knowledgeable beekeeper, can out produce any two queen colony. This is why you never see a skilled beekeeper or a commercial beekeeper using a two queen system. While I am on the suject, I trust that you know (proven thousands of times) that colony with 40,000 bees can produce almost twice as much honey as 2 colonies that each have 20,000 bees! This, in itself, is the best reason for a beekeeper to learn to properly prepare (manage) his bees so that the colony is so strong that it is approaching a swarming fever just when the main nectar flow starts. Here in Maryland, because of our very early nectar flow in April and May and totally OVER by June 10th, I start 1:1 sugar syrup feeding in early February to excite early egg laying by the queen. Any egg layed after March 20th is of no value to me, because the nectar flow will be over before the bee becomes a forager. Having "been there", forget any 2 queen system, and devote your time to learning GOOD MANAGEMENT TECHNIQUES. Good Luck! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John A Skinner Subject: Re: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt etc. In-Reply-To: <"0430734F6CDD523D*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=ccmail/s=Jadczak/g=Anthony/i=M/"@MHS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1) Justin Schmidt's swarm trap 2) The OAC pollen trap 3) Harbo syringe grins, John John A. Skinner 218 Ellington Hall Extension Apiculturist University of Tennessee jskinner@utk.edu Knoxville, TN 37901 (423)974-7138 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:49:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BeemanNick Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Can anyone tell me what the big fuss is on it in plain english! Thank you Nick! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:00:00 -0800 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Global Bee Loss Survey ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19980226174028.0e271578@mail.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:43 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote: >After reading the Bee Loss Survey article conducted by Penn. State U. on >their state's bee colony losses for the 1995-1996 winter over season. I >think it is very important ecologically to have a survey performed on a >large a scale as possible. Yes, Cirtus, this would be nice but I am sure someone would point out that these may be reports compiled by/from scientific types but the information they are based on is antidotal from beekeepers and are fair game for interpretation. What I personally see in this Penn State and other studies is that base studies are lacking, beekeepers who do everything by the book are still having levels of loss that can not be explained, and follow up studies are not being done or when done are lost because the results may be in conflict with the original study. >As we all know bee pollination of plant-life is of paramount importance to >human survival. No I did not know this, but heard something similar from a European Bee Scientist years ago except the word "honey" was used in place of "pollination", I did not believe it then but I have an open mind if you have new information. I can say for a fact that the arguments against honeybees being of all that great value to at least mankind in the USA were good enough in our Congress to have all beekeepers hands removed from the Federal cookie jar and they centered on the fact that honeybees are not native to the New World. >But, unfortunately the general public, particularly city dwellers do not >understand this, nor know of the declines that have been occurring. Our >respective world-wide governments also are not Fully aware of this problem. > This needs to be made a visible public issue before it is too late to take >action. Why not spend some time on promoting the beekeeping life style which is as clean and honorable as any endeavor man is into which gives us the byproducts Honey, Pollination, Study Subjects, and Healthy Out Door Physical Recreation. The beekeeping problems we are having today are not new and much of the information put out about todays problems are subject to change the very next time conditions for keeping bees improves. >I am certain that many of the increases in diseases, and parasites have >been exacerbated by environmental pollution in general, as well as global >transfer of non-indigenous parasites. Globalization of transport has >reached critical mass, and has little or no "Real" controls over >indiscriminate spread of species. I think the Varroa and tracheal mites >are just the tip of the ice berg, and a 1st WARNING of things to come. All the above may be true and to some that may sound like the beginning of the end, others look at it as another addition to their daily challenge. >I have a great deal of database knowledge and experience. I also have >experience in performing surveys and scientific study and analysis. I >would be interested in knowing if anyone else, individual, group, >association, etc. out there would be interested in collaborating on >collecting information from as many geographical locations as possible on >bee colony losses. Get to work on it, all that good stuff is of little value if left unused. Much public information is collected, enough for the CIA to make judgements on beekeeping conditions in most countries that have large honeybee populations. Again the problem associated with this kind of work is that the information is mostly antidotal and in some cases both political and antidotal so requires many years of compilation and comparison to get a real handle on the facts and then beekeeping information can be boring to the public who have their own set of problems other then the "killer" bees are going to get them or honey is $3.00 a pound at the local Piggy Wigglee. ttul, the OLd Drone ... Some bee had stung it newly. www.beenet.com - nothing there I just like the colored print this mail reader adds! (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:32:02 -0800 Reply-To: jcbach@yvn.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: James C Bach Subject: 2 queen colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Imirie's post says: "Bee people, researchers, and scientists like myself have proven over and over again that one good queen, properly managed by a knowledgeable beekeeper, can out produce any two queen colony. This is why you never see a skilled beekeeper or a commercial beekeeper using a two queen system. While I am on the suject, I trust that you know (proven thousands of times) that a colony with 40,000 bees can produce almost twice as much honey as 2 colonies that each have 20,000 bees!" George, the first and last sentences may actually be in conflict. First, we have a commercial beekeeper here who has been running 3,000 hives all two queens for 15 years. He out produces his neighbor beekeepers every year. Another beekeeper kept half of the hives in each of 40 apiaries single queens, and the other half two queens. The singles produced an average of 60 lbs. the same as his neighbors' bees, while the two queen colonies produced 85 lbs. Second, a two queen colony may actually have more than 60,000 bees. I have managed my hives with two queens for 20 years. I use all western supers so that they are easier to lift. With a good queen in the bottom hive it may be 10 or 11 westerns high. I use an excluder over the bottom brood nest, then the supers, with the top queen over a ventilated (screened) bottom board device. Yes, lifting the top few supers especially when they are full is a chore. I back the pickup up next to the hives and work them from the tailgate to save on my back. The last five years, I have produced an average of 135 lbs. per production colony. What I have observed are the following: a) Bottom queens often fail part way through their first full production season (12 to 14 months from introduction), b.) A bottom queen, in the last ten years or so, only produces enough pheromone to influence bee behavior in the first deep super and sometimes in half of the second. This is why the bees store honey close to the brood nest - 1.5 deep boxes - and then start to plug the brood nest. This is also why bees will raise queens if given eggs in the middle of the fourth deep. c.) When a second queen is placed on top of a hive and two deeps (4 westerns) used as honey supers, the bees store honey evenly between the two queens. Honey foragers from the top queen will put honey in the open comb under the ventilated bottom board if given an entrance at the second or third western. d.) With failing lower queens the top queen can be moved down as soon as the bottom queen is seen to be failing. e.) I presume that the increased queen pheromone caused by the two queens causes the bees to store honey as I have described. However, I could be wrong because one of the commercial beekeepers above uses some one quarter inch thick plywood without screen as his top bottom board and he has the same result on these colonies as he does with those where he uses screened inner covers. Beats me. Is it vibration as a means of communication? f.) With noisy bottom hive because of a poor queen down below, the bees will often move up to the more attractive queen in the top nuc, often filling two westerns and hanging out of the top entrance like a swarm. But, the more mature I get, I may go back to single queens just for practical reasons. Regards all James C. Bach WSDA State Apiarist Yakima WA jbach@agr.wa.gov jcbach@yvn.com 509 576 3041 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Re: 5 Frame Nucs Comments: cc: Romanik John , Bruno Reich , Kovac Frank J In-Reply-To: <199802271953.TAA16861@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For Mr. Barrett in Dublin about his five-frame nuc setup. So U R installing mouse guards? I've n e v e r used them in 38 consecutive years of beekeeping in Maryland (Baltimore metro area) USA. Our bottom boards have two sides, a deep and a shallow. Despite what the books and people say about ventilation and the collection of debris, etc., I've always run mine with the s h a l l o w side up 12 months of the year. That means I don't have to buy MGs, install them, and then remove them later. Of course, nor do I have mouse problems. (I assume Irish mice are the same size as American? [smile]) Suum cuique? Cheers from Jack the Bman **John Iannuzzi, Ph.D. **38 years in apiculture **12 hives of Italian honeybees **At Historic Ellicott City, Maryland, 21042, U.S.A. (10 miles west of Baltimore, Maryland) [9772 Old Annapolis Rd - 410 730 5279] **"Forsooth there is some good in things evil For bees extract sweetness from the weed" -- Bard of Avon **Website: http://www.xmetric.com/honey **Email: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [1jan981031est] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:21:04 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: Re: Two queen colonies In-Reply-To: <4ef2e259.34f72bee@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is a comment on Geo Imirie's two-queen colonies and Feb 1-1 sugar syrup feeding to stimulate egg-laying. (1) Geo makes a lot of sense about tqc; I've resorted to that manuever to house swarms when I had no other MT equipment and could find nobody to take them--yes, two queens in one colony separated by a double screen but not for the purposes of increased honey production. Yes, this is a horse of a different color, on second thought. (2) Geo starts feeding 1-1 sugar syrup in early Feb. I start in November and continue until the honeyflow is imminent, when the tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera) and black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) begin to bloom about May 1 and are done by the first week in June. I'm usually extracting by the ides of June: to leave it on longer I have found that the bees start to consume it! Jack the Bman **John Iannuzzi, Ph.D. **38 years in apiculture **12 hives of Italian honeybees **At Historic Ellicott City, Maryland, 21042, U.S.A. (10 miles west of Baltimore, Maryland) [9772 Old Annapolis Rd - 410 730 5279] **"Forsooth there is some good in things evil For bees extract sweetness from the weed" -- Bard of Avon **Website: http://www.xmetric.com/honey **Email: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [1jan981031est] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 07:30:00 -0400 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Joel Govostes Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Comments: To: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John I. wrote: ...> two queens in one colony separated by a double >screen but not for the purposes of increased honey production. Yes, >this is a horse of a different color, on second thought. Sounds similar to the piggy-back arrangement comprising a 2-Q colony, up to the time the screen is pulled or replaced by an excluder. If you were to pull the dbl. screen after a month or so, and put an excluder there, with a sheet of newspaper and an entrance notch where the upper unit's entrance was before, the colonies will "unite" and continue working with both queens. There are always some stinkers, but this has worked well *almost all the time for me. It was very effective for section honey over a double brood nest (w/one queen in each brood nest). Usually both queens would continue laying right through the summer, and the excluders would be pulled at the start of the fall season, returning the colony to single-queen status for wintering. >(2) Geo starts feeding 1-1 sugar syrup in early Feb. I start in November >and continue until the honeyflow is imminent, when the tulip poplar >(Liriodendron tulipifera) and black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) >begin to bloom about May 1 and are done by the first week in June. >I'm usually extracting by the ides of June: to leave it on longer >I have found that the bees start to consume it! So I guess John's bees do fine with syrup on all winter(?). In a more harsh winter I've had much better luck with dry sugar, if a colony goes through their stored honey too soon. I have been able to carry needy colonies from Feb. right through to May on it. Syrup dripping down on the cluster can be disastrous, and they seem reluctant to take freezing cold syrup anyway, IME. Perhaps there is not a good fall flow in MD for the bees to sock away the winter stores. We don't get the tulip poplar in NY but I've been told it is delectable. Most years the black locust is a major source. Two summers ago it seemed to bloom for weeks on end, and the crop was wonderful. An ensuing dearth in some areas can cause the bees to start eating it up, so getting it harvested in a timely fashion is a challenge in itself. Must be nice to have all the extracting done mid-June, John; by then I'm sure your customers are lining up, too! Rgds, JG ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:09:30 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc Subject: Re: Two queen colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/28/98 12:29:59, you wrote: << was before, the colonies will "unite" and continue working with both>> With my Kerkoff hive, the two queens are always there. I'll be glad to send you information on this hive if you wish, but would need your mailing address not your E-Mail address. beekeeperc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:08:23 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter Subject: Re: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt et Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 1 Hive tool 2 Flourescent paint for above 3 Back support belt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:20:07 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok Nick. How much did the NHB cost you last year? What did they do for you? I've paid thousands in the last few years. Haven't done Jack S. for me. They come into my home with copying machine and record all my business papers. Then they tell me how much I'd better pay them or else. Only in Amerika. Its tough enough to make a living on bees. How much do you think we make on each pound of honey we make? A few cents? 10 to 20 in a good year? 1 cent assessment can be as much as 10% tax. Now they want 2 cents. For what? So they can put stupid dumb adds in good housekeeping! I'd be better off spending the money on something my apiary needs. Like - queens, truck, new extractor, etc, etc, etc. How much did the NHB cost you Nick? How about you all? Have they invaded your space yet? Have they threatened you yet? Have they done anything but promote foriegn honey sales to manufacturers? Think about it folks. What's the price of honey today? Mike BeemanNick wrote: > Can anyone tell me what the big fuss is on it in plain english! > > Thank you Nick! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:28:48 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Re: AFB Spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 <<<<<the equipment in paraffin wax for ten minutes at a temperature of 150 >degrees Centigrade, Does this kill them or just seal them in??>>>>> Bailey does not say. He gives as reference for this treatment Cook, 1968= =2E = It would certainly seal them in but that in itself would hardly be safe s= o maybe it kills as well. There can't be many living things which could stand up to such a temperature. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Empty Comb Stimulus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >-----Original Message----- >From: Allen Dick >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >Date: February 20, 1998 9:07 AM >Subject: Empty Comb Stimulus > > >After August 8 here in Southern Alberta, we usually restrict all but the >largest hives to 4 standard boxes, including broods. Of course that means >visits must be made regularly to forestall plugging in exceptional hives. Hi Allan and all I was just clearing up some unfinished reading in my Inbox and wondered about this last paragraph. I think I know what you mean by "plugging" but could you explain it and how you stop it? Also, an update on those 2 dead hives which I *thought* were flying well a few weeks before.....it was evidently *robbing*, which I took for activity. They were evidently dead for some time. Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 6 colonies and counting ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:31:29 -0700 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Eric Abell Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" search BEE-L "Nosema" Eric Abell Gibbons, Alberta Canada T0A 1N0 Ph/fax (403) 998 3143 eabell@compusmart.ab.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:36:56 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Empty Comb Stimulus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >-----Original Message----- >From: Allen Dick >To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU >Date: February 21, 1998 5:56 AM >Subject: Re: Empty Comb Stimulus > > >In my recent post I was referring only to the *supers* area in a hive and >have found that ventillation there does no harm in a *warm* summer, but in >cool summers it is a bad idea. Who can tell what the weather will be in >a few days. I can't -- in Alberta at least. Frost in June and August is >not uncommon. On cool nights and rainy or windy days I want my bees up >working in the supers, not hunkered down in the brood boxes Hi All again I had understood that the bees *do not* heat the inside of the hive, so why would it matter if there is top ventilation or not? If it's frosty outside, wouldn't the bees be in a cluster anyhow even without top ventilation? Regards, Ian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:25:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Ian Watson Subject: Re: Creamed Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Joel Govostes To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: February 25, 1998 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Creamed Honey >You can use coarse solid honey such as aster/goldenrod, and even though >it's not normally considered table-grade This has always confused me. A lot of the books agree with the above quote (short, by the way...;) But every single customer of mine tells me that my "Wildflower Honey" , as I call it, is "excellent" and "far better than store bought", etc. Funny thing is...most of my "Wildflower Honey" is Goldenrod/Aster. Ian Watson realtor@niagara.com real estate agent gardener baritone beekeeper---> 6 colonies and counting ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:35:47 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Plugging Comments: To: Ian Watson In-Reply-To: <01bd445d$7b4049e0$913a05d1@k6200.niagara.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >After August 8 here in Southern Alberta, we usually restrict all but the > >largest hives to 4 standard boxes, including broods. Of course that means > >visits must be made regularly to forestall plugging in exceptional hives. > I think I know what you mean by "plugging" but could you explain it and > how you stop it? Several people have asked, so I'll write something here. I imagine a quick search might find some discussion of the term, but I'm not sure it has been fully covered before here. If the bees bring in so much honey so fast that there is no room (or reduced room) in the hive for brood, we call the hive 'plugged'. That honeybound condition means no -- or few -- young bees can be raised until the bees eat the honey or move it elsewhere. In the passion of a strong honeyflow bees will often allow themselves to become honeybound. This can be tantamount to suicide in some circumstances. Full combs will *normally* cause bees to stop foraging, and in fact feeding heavily in the fall -- after the end of normal brood rearing -- is a way to ensure your bees do not fly around all fall wearing themselves out in search of diminished resources. However the honey comes in so fast sometimes in the summer that the bees do not realise that they are plugged until too late. I guess it's like eating your food too fast --there is a danger of becoming overfull before your body sends the 'enough' message to your brain. Plugging can result in a missed generation of bees, swarming in swarming season, smaller populations of mostly older bees after some time passes, and other harmful effects. You can see why it will impact on wintering in northern temperate regions if it happens on the main flow and is not quickly remedied -- there will be no young bees in the fall and mostly old bees going into winter. This situation may not be easily detectedl. Since raising bees reduces lifespan and foraging also reduces individual bee lifespan, and because the plugged hive can do neither to any great extent, the population count may appear normal in the fall. Nonetheless these old summer bees don't live forever, and by January, the hive will start to dwindle due to simple old age of the majority of the bees. Chances are the hive will not last until spring, and the symptoms are not a lot different from some mite losses: small remaining clusters or hives dead with no bees left in them. I suspect plugging is a major cause of beginners' losses, since beginners find it very hard to believe how fast a five story hive with no competition can plug up and beginners often are short of equipment or trying to draw foundation. Moreover beginners often have no replacement supers or maybe no extractor. Since the plugging can happen in days and has a lasting effect if not repaired within days, such hives are doomed by their apparent prosperity. FWIW, drawing large amounts of foundation puts storage pressure on the brood chamber and plugging is a constant problem in comb production. If the comb supers are not removed before the end of warm weather and if the brood area is not loosened up in time for the queen to lay a good wintering population of fat young bees, the outlook for strong live hives the next spring is reduced. What can we do? The first thing is not to scrimp on buying supers. One extra empty super per hive is a valuable investment. Keep it on the hive in the early summer, not in your garage. Second, check hives by raising the lid weekly at the very least and plan to start extracting as soon as the hive is 3/4 full. Third, be sure if a hive has become plugged that a super or empty combs is placed over the brood chamber as soon as practicable. The bees will quickly move honey into it to make room for the queen to lay in the nest. In nucs -- which are especially vulnerable to plugging due to the limited space -- pull combs of honey often enough to ensure there is always one empty comb on the side. For intermediate to advanced beekeepers only: Try 'loosening up' the brood chamber in late spring or early summer: *If you know what you are doing* and have time, insert a good brood comb or two or sheet of foundation into the centre of the brood area. This will allow the queen to lay to the max. Don't do it if frost is likely. I realise there is more to say on this, but this is a start. Hope it helps. Allen --- FAQs? There is no BEE-L FAQ - as such - but you can search for answers to most common questions by visiting http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm or send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU and say Search BEE-L KEYWORD(S) ('KEYWORD(S)' means a word or words unique to your question) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:07:10 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Early Splitting in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I can get New Zealand queen in the second week of April, a week or so > earlier than the Hawaiian ones. I really want to try Carniolans, but I > also want the queens as early as possible. I have three colonies in one > yard that are very much ahead of what they (I think) should be at this > time. When looking at the bottom brood box, the area of bees is > approximately 70-75 % of the area of the chamber. The cluster appears to > be quite larger than a basketball. That is an ideal size for now. (I have many that are presently larger than that). Don't forget that these are old bees after the winter -- bees with reduced brood feeding capabilities and perhaps some disease load. They may diminish in number rapidly once brood rearing and foraging starts in earnest. Don't make the mistake that even seasoned pros make of splitting before the first real round of brood has been raised with incoming pollen. Otherwise your splits may dwindle below viable size. Also remember that if you split the basketball-sized cluster that you will not make two separate clusters that are each half that size. The cluster is that size now because the many bees can make lots of heat. Half the bees will have trouble maintaining the temperature and will contract. I would not split anything that did not have brood in two chambers until around garden planting time. If you want to do something, I'd consider equalizing a bit between hives -- with all the usual caveats. Otherwise wait until more settled weather and you have younger populations (remember old bees do not accept new queens well). Acting too soon, you could chill brood if the bees cannot keep it warm. Better to feed and medicate now and encourage them to grow bigger before splitting. The ideal time to split is when you are sure that two queens can outperform the one, given the total number of bees available and conditions. Usually early in the season you will see that the limitation is *not* the queen, but the supporting bees, temperatures, and the feed quality. Once you see the queen is about to reach her limits, and not using the full capabilities of the bees she has available, then it is time to split since a second queen will add more brood production in total. Let the bees tell you when and what to do. Having said all this, you might, however be able to steal enough bees and brood from several hives to make an extra hive or two that covers *at least* three full frames on a cool day with one frame with a patch of brood in the centre after the winter bees are replaced. I would prefer four. Bee careful. Allen --- Newsflash! Visit http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm to search BEE-L archives the easy, easy way or to update or change your subscription options. --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:25:40 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@vci.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: beeman Subject: NHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How much did the NHB cost you last year? What did they do for you? I've paid thousands in the last few years hi all, some may find this to bee a dumb question but what is the national honey board?? how do they cost anybody anything??? i am referring to the email that Michael Palmer sent. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Iannuzzi Subject: How One Hobbyist Processes Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII How to Process Pollen--for the Hobbyist 28feb98 1 Collect pollen from traps using two containers to keep the cleaner pollen separate from what is not. 2 How often? Start once a day to determine frequency. I do it every other day for with seven Stauffers--the best out there for my money: I've tried and written about over seven different trap-configurations including the famous Ontario one, which can't measure up. 3 I dry it on 9 x 15-inch cookie sheets, with raised edges. When pinched and pellets do not stick together, pollen is dry enough. 4 Empty into one gallon plastic bags and close with bread wrap ties. 5 Freeze for 24 hours to kill wax moth eggs ALWAYS present. 6 Store in bottles: I use two- and three-pound glass queenline jars until ready to clean. 7 Clean by dumping onto a 15x15-inch 18-mesh screening device by shaking to remove dust and using twizzers to remove larger debris not thus eliminated--cappings, propolis bits, bee-body and flower parts. 8 Pour enough to cover a dinner plate and use twizzers to pick out larger debris not sifted out. 9 That's it. Store until consumed or sold. I sell it from my front door: 7 ounces in a one-pound, labeled glass queenline honey jar for $7.00. John Iannuzzi, Ph.D., 71 Pollen collector since 1982 PS Maryland is NOT pollen country. Average annual take: 50 (fifty) pounds, Mar 1 - Oct 15. **John Iannuzzi, Ph.D. **38 years in apiculture **12 hives of Italian honeybees **At Historic Ellicott City, Maryland, 21042, U.S.A. (10 miles west of Baltimore, Maryland) [9772 Old Annapolis Rd - 410 730 5279] **"Forsooth there is some good in things evil For bees extract sweetness from the weed" -- Bard of Avon **Website: http://www.xmetric.com/honey **Email: jiannuzz@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us [1jan981031est] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:14:39 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: John Goodman Subject: HONEY/FIELD CROP GROSS MARGINS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" HONEY v FIELD CROP (GM/Ha) I am trying to build up some comparative gross margin figures for honey and arable field crops, especially for temperate field crops on which polllination fees are not normally paid, ie by comparing the value of honey output with field crop output for common nectar producing crops such as Alfafa, Borage, Buckwheat, Clover, Field Beans, Oilseed Rape, Mustard (& other Brassica seed crops), Phacelia, Sunflowers, Tobacco etc. The information will be used to prepare a talk for beekeepers which will enable them to better understand their farming neighbours and the honey potential of their field crops by comparing their margins with those commonly achieved by farmers for arable crops. Agricultural costing conventions will be used in the comparision. Some idea of typical fixed costs based on say 50, 100, 500 or 1000 hive enterprises would also be useful. Naturally, I should be interested in the honey crop gross margins of other crops if you have them. It should put the honey crop into perspective with respect to other farm crops. GROSS MARGIN=OUTPUT-VARIABLE COSTS OUTPUT/VALUE (eg honey, wax, bees, propolis, pollination contracts etc) [eg field crop, oilseed, fodder, forage, straw, residues etc] VARIABLE COSTS (sugar, drugs, foundation, containers, transport, insurance etc) [seed, fertilizer, crop protection chemicals, pollination fees etc] FIXED COSTS (rent, labour, equipment, machinery, property maint., etc) [rent, labour, equipment, machinery, property maint., etc] (HONEY CROP) [FIELD CROP] (1 Ha = 2.471 ac) Please state Ha or Acres & currency units It would be much appreciated if anyone can suggest appropriate references or has the relevant information to hand. Whilst I am aware of the arable field crop figures for North West Europe, I do not have the details for elsewhere and to make a reasonable comparision, I would need the field and honey crop figures for a particular region. Common stocking density ie hives per Ha/Acre for the crop would also be most useful as would the likely honey yield per colony or Ha. Many thanks in anticipation - I shall feed back a digest of the infomation I receive via the listserver in due course. Best Wishes, JOHN GOODMAN Regional Bee Inspector, NE England CSL National Bee Unit, UK # http://www.csl.gov.uk/navf.htm) # Tel/Message:+44 (0)1833 690561 Fax(at York):+44 (0)1904 462240 j.m.goodman@csl.gov.uk International Coordinator for the "Apinet" APINET BEE (Bee Educ & Ext) NEWS # ( http://web.inter.nl.net/hcc/beenet/ ) # ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:19:50 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: 2 Queen Colonies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: I know both George and Jim and respect each for their knowledge of bees. However, having conducted research in Maryland, where George resides, and in Washington, where Jim resides, I think some of the apparent contradiction has to do with the geographical areas, types of beekeeping, bee forage, etc. As in Washington, in Montana we have at least one commercial beekeeper who has double queened about 2000 hives every year for at least 15-20 years, possibly longer. He has impressive production records. Western Washington and Eastern Maryland are much alike in that each area has lots of small side-line beekeepers. More importantly, the main nectar flows are finished by early (no later than mid-) summer. In both areas, beekeepers tend to pull honey supers, then feed honey. They also intentionally shut down queens early in the season. With mild winters, the problem is that the bees need a lot of surplus honey to cover all of those mild months when they can move about, even fly, but find only a subsistence or lower food resource. Eastern Washington and eastern Montana are different. We have large migratory beekeeping operations. 2,000 hives is "a small" operation. Some go to 14,000 or more. The main nectar flows start as early as May and can continue on an off and on basis right through August. Some of our beekeepers shut down their queens (but usually a month or two later than the folks on the coasts). Others want every bee that they can get to catch the mid-summer flows. In a good year, these operations produce over 100 pounds surplus, often 150 pounds (and I have seen and verified large runs of apiaries that can harvest over 200 pounds) with an occassional hive cranky out as much as 500 pounds (and yes, I have weighed them). However, I haven't seen these monster hives much since the mites popped on the scene. One thing we don't do in Montana is feed in summer or fall - only in the spring. Our challenge is to get strong colonies going fast for a relatively short season, after which we put them to bed for the winter or haul them to the west coast. Double queens get the populations going fast (which can be an advantage for colonies coming out of a long, cold Montana winter, or struggling to recover from the rigors of migratory pollination. Slow build rates, and you miss the critical nectar flows. Like Jim, we estimate a queen loss of 30-50% as not being uncommon in these commercial operations (and yes, some of our industry folks were dispute that number) but both Jim as a Washington state inspector and ourselves having tested colonies over landscape scales have looked into thousands of colonies. Queens can and do fail more often than generally thought. They also tend to be lost about the time the queen excluders are dropped on or as the main nectar flows really gets going (based on our MT studies). In my opinion, the advantage of that second queen is as an insurance policy during the early part of the season. Our commercial beekeeper actually lets the two fight it out mid-summer so that he goes into the winter with a single queen cluster (otherwise we tend to get two clumps of bees in the hive). However, in eastern Maryland (or eastern Washington) you don't need (and may not want) large populations of bees mid-summer or during the winter. Here, we still argue whether a large population is more likely to survive a Montana winter (and as such justify the extra honey needed). Again, I like strong colonies. Our records show a much more consistent and predicatable performance record from strong, over-wintering colonies (but that probably reflects the vagaries of keeping bees in this geographical area). With the advent of the mites, this may be even more important - since most losses occur during the fall, winter, and early spring. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:41:33 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Do Bees heat their Home? Comments: To: Ian Watson In-Reply-To: <01bd445e$b378e0a0$913a05d1@k6200.niagara.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >In my recent post I was referring only to the *supers* area in a hive and > >have found that ventillation there does no harm in a *warm* summer, but in > >cool summers it is a bad idea. Who can tell what the weather will be in > >a few days. I can't -- in Alberta at least. Frost in June and August is > >not uncommon. On cool nights and rainy or windy days I want my bees up > >working in the supers, not hunkered down in the brood boxes > I had understood that the bees *do not* heat the inside of the hive, so > why would it matter if there is top ventilation or not? If it's frosty > outside, wouldn't the bees be in a cluster anyhow even without top > ventilation? Well, like most generalities, the above one about heating the cavity is only generally and literally true. Moreover, it is subject to wide misunderstanding. Just because honey bees do not actively heat the cavity they occupy does not mean that managing temperatures in the hive by controlling volume, insulation and openings will not result in healthier, more prolific bees. Bees naturally toggle between *passively* heating the whole space and heating only their cluster just by virtue of interaction of the following factors: 1.) the mass of bees and brood and their metabolic heat, and 2.) the size, insulation and ventillation characteristics of their home. Since the bees -- like all organisms -- do give off heat, and because a given cavity will warm or cool in relation to the total heat output of the bees in it, it follows that a smaller insulated cavity with small holes will be at a greater interior temperature at all times than a larger, less insulated, draughty enclosure. The approx 55 degree cluster temperature of bees is the toggle. When the interior temperature crosses this line the bees suspend work and withdraw to cluster for warmth or break out of cluster and resume work in the farther reaches of the hive -- depending on whether the temperature trend is up or down. Therefore in the warmer cavity the bees will remain active and unclustered longer as the outside temperature drops. Active bees make more heat, and thus the effect has a feedback component: a warmer hive results in a warmer hive results in a warmer hive results in a warmer hive etc... This can be a problem if there is no way to dispose of the excess heat, and this is what many -- especially in the South where it is a real concern -- focus on, often neglecting the problems associated with sub-optimal heat retention that can be a problem in most other areas. Obviously in hot conditions, excess heat can be a serious problem. Interior hive temperature of about 93 degrees F is ideal. There is an ideal humidity too. Above these limits, bees stop other work and start to dump heat and moisture by fanning. Below these limits, they may block the entrance with their bodies or propolis or recede from the opening. Our goal is to select a hive volume and entrance size for our geographic region that allows the bees to maintain the interior at a temperature above clustering and below fanning temperature most of the time. We also must avoid -- even once -- approaching meltdown. Generally, in active season, bees do best in spaces where they can control the temperature of the whole cavity in the middle of the comfortable range -- where they neither have to withdraw to cluster for warmth or fan for cooling. That's why we don't make baby nucs in standard supers or leave extra supers on in the winter. This is common sense and obvious too, when you think about it. Therefore, in summer, if the volume and ventillation are right, the bees will be able to remain unclustered most of the time. This means more work is accomplished, more foundation drawn, more honey ripened, more cells cleaned, more burr comb built, etc... Nonetheless, the necessary volume and entrance size of a hive is determined by more factors than just the above: we have to allow for expansion, and we want to have room for lots of honey. This increases the volume and ventillation requirements above what would otherwise be ideal, but only for a short time during the expected flow. Thus the ideal size/volume ratio is not stable. It varies with ambient temperature, and of course bee populations expand as the daily ambient temperature rises. As we can see, in marginal temperature and spatial conditions, the bees fluctuate between occupying the whole hive and just the brood area. Some strains of bees tend to try to keep their stores near the brood (occupied) area. They don't care to store in remote areas, areas that are only occasionally occupied by the bees. Cool hives may be a problem if you are using them. Once we leave the active season and look at the early spring and wintering management, we see that these situations are normally at the low end of the range of conditions discussed above. Our goals and management become very different when we start managing *inactive* bees. High levels of activity are not desirable during those times and therefore cooling the bees a bit with ventillation and encouraging clustering is wise. It keeps them home and conserves energy for later. Ventillation is also at such times necessary to carry away respiration products. Since insulation is often necessary to slow temperature fluctuations and reduce chilling , increased ventillation also counteracts the resulting heat retention and serves to help keep the bees clustered until there are reasons for them to become active. When time for the active season arrives, the observant beekeeper will try to match the hive size and ventillation to the bees needs and the season. She will be rewarded by healthier, more productive bees. I hope this helps explain this concept better. It is one can make the difference between success and failure. Allen --- You can search the BEE-L archives by sending email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU saying SEARCH BEE-L "key phrase" Substitute a key phrase for "key phrase" above. and remember to use the double quotes to exclude hits on the individual words in the phrase --- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:30:04 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: AFB Spores In-Reply-To: <12020051825666@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > .... In England there is no treatment > allowed and the rule is burn all combs and honey and if the main hive > parts are worth saving, scorch them well with a flame gun. Though we are permitted to use the 150C wax method of sterilisation and we are also permitted to Gamma-irradiate *possibly-exposed* comb and equipment, provided no symptoms are visible (that's just to avoid future confusion). -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan, retd :-(; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 18:51:42 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Gordon Scott Subject: Re: ventilation. In-Reply-To: <13545426517311@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > I think we need to remember that bees in the wild don't normally make as > much honey as properly managed hives. At least that's what I've been > told. Here's something to think about. The primary aims of all creatures are survival and reproduction, in bees -- swarming. Once a colony has sufficient honey for survival, it sets out on its other primary aim. If we want to produce honey and avoid swarming, it's in *our* best interests to try and fool the bees into thinking that they haven't yet reached that second phase. IMHO, they do much of their estimating on whether thar are ready to swarm from the congestion levels in their 'chosen' nest -- IIRC, bees prefer a cavity around 20 litres. By both artificially increasing its volume (supering) and increasing the ventilation, we go a long way towards creating the illusion that they still need more stores and are not yet ready to swarm. -- Gordon Scott gordon@apis.demon.co.uk gordon@multitone.co.uk (work) The Basingstoke Beekeeper (newsletter) beekeeper@apis.demon.co.uk Gordon's Apis Home Page Beekeeper; Kendo 3rd Dan, retd :-(; Sometime sailor. Hampshire, England. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 06:54:23 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: aweinert Subject: bacillus spore killing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I CAN NOT GIVE A SPECIFIC TEMPERATURE FOR BACILLUS LAVAE BUT AM CURRENTLY WORKING WITH A PROBLEM WITH BACILLUS SPECIES IN FOOD BACILLUS AS A WHOLE ARE EXTREMELY HEAT RESISTANT WITH SOME NOT BEING KILLED UNTIL THE TEMPERATURE REACHES 121 DEGREES CELSIUS. FOR MILK LONG LIFE MILK IS TREATED AT 140 DEGREES C FOR A FRACTION OF A SECOND THE BACTERIA THAT ARE OF SIGNIFICANCE TO FOOD SAFETY BACILLUS CEREUS ARE KILLED IN ACIDIC CONDITIONS AT 80 DEGREES C. AT pH 5.0 BUT ARE IN FACT STIMULATED TO GERMINATE IF THE pH IS AT APPROX. 6.5 AND ABOVE. THEY ARE TOUGH LITTLE CRITTERS. AS BEE KEEPERS ARE DEALING WITH WOOD WE ARE FACED WITH THE "PROTECTION FACTOR THAT WOOD GIVES BACTERIA AND SPORES. SO BOILING THE WOOD IN AN ACIDIC SOLUTION POSSIBLY WOULD NOT KILL THE SPORES AS THEY WOULD BE PROTECTED BY THE WOOD OR THE WOOD WOULD DISSOLVE. I DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION ON THIS TO GIVE TRUST WORTHY OPINION. The facts are Bacillus is heat resistant some to temperatures greater than 100 Degrees C. (212 Degrees F) A combination of acidic conditions and heat will kill Bacillus species Wood is a protector of bacteria as it is like a sponge when you are the size of a bacteria a reference that could be useful to those with access is Bergeys Manual of microbiology. this is one of the general Bibles of microbiology regards Andrew Weinert When standing at the edge of a cliff a step back can be said to be a step in the right direction ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:53:24 -0500 Reply-To: lacelle@sympatico.ca Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Paul Lacelle Subject: Spring Management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should I be feeding my bees any medications at this time of year?If so what and how?Thanks.I seem to be reading alot about nosema lately.I checked my hives today and my bees seemed fine lots of honey etc..Although I did notice a few splotches of brown on the front of one of my hives. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:35:21 +0000 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Stewart Beattie Subject: Re: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt et Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" At 09:08 28/02/98 EST, you wrote: >1 Hive tool >2 Flourescent paint for above >3 Back support belt > Never mind the Flouresent paint on the hive tool, Try attaching one of these key ring finders. You know the one you can find by whistling and it beeps back at you. It,s ideal for finding the hive tool in long grass at the hives. 8080,0000,0000(an old Gable Endie) Cumbria U.K. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:20:03 EST Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: EMakovec Subject: Re: A. Nachbaur's challenge for top 10 bee tools/mgmt etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit As one of your wimpier beelist members, I insist on wearing my bee suit when doing anything but a cursory examination of my two hives. Therefore, my number one bee tool is my 99-cent sports headband -- to keep the sweat from running down my face! Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:05:52 -0500 Reply-To: Discussion of Bee Biology Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Steven Albritton Subject: Stored Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have some supers that were stored in a stack with a pie plate of Moth Crystals on top of them. I had planned to give these back to the bees but don't really need to. Can this be extracted or is this now contaminated by the crystals? Has anyone had a lab test honey after this type of storage? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:17:41 -0800 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Discussion of Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Honey Board Legislation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Troy Fore wrote: > I have resisted posting replies to some of the off-the-wall comments on > the proposal to expand the Honey Board because of the title of the BEE-L: > "Discussion of Bee Biology." But the latest..... > ..... pushed my button too hard. He posted, on behalf of Joe Rowland: I'd just like to tell you all that I know Joe Rowland fairly well. We've had a few long beekeeper talks at NYS meetings and a couple years ago Joe put on a queen rearing/grafting demo for our local organization here at my place. Joe is as fine a beekeepers as I've met anywhere. He has done some terrific work with queen selection and was one of the people that influnced my decision to get into queen work. And I'm 99% in agreement with Joe on this issue. I don't want to make a big post of this but I'd like to ask Mr. Fore why any of us should support NHB considering that the price of honey produced, that is in the barrel, has not even kept up with inflation and our market share has decreased during the years of NHB's activity ? As for letting the packers/stealers off without paying- you bet, and keep the board in the hands of producers only. I mean PRODUCERS, not producer packers, not producers that work for packers, and not producers with huge interests in large cooperatives. If the price in the barrel does'nt increase more American producers will be forced to quit. When producers go down the support industries including magazines such as yours will suffer also.