========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:35:58 -0700 Reply-To: "smo@abac.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Sonnenberg Organization: Sun Mountain Orchards Subject: roaches Having never had experience with cockroaches, I'm rather appalled to have opened one of my hives only to have about 50 of these things bouncing off each other looking for some place dark. Is it true that this could be? Any help is greatly appreciated. What is an acceptable method of control and how damaging are they to the bees? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:22:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Who pays for all this? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All To say that this list has helped me in my beekeeping is a bit like saying that Mozart could read music - it has been utterly fantastic. I am really grateful for the time which many of our contributors have put into typing in replies to my questions, and I am especially grateful for the recent replies to my posting on seeing eggs. Seeing eggs is now somewhat easier than heretofore. I am puzzled about one thing - who pays for all of this?. I would guess that a fairly powerful server is needed and there is of course the time put in by our Moderator, not to mention the technical staff who are needed when things go wrong and for development purposes. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:31:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Kashmir Virus In-Reply-To: <98Jun22.142502nzst.26882@gateway.boppoly.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:59 AM 6/23/98 +1200, you wrote: >> "Has a dramatic loss of bees because of Kishmar Virus or >I have spoken to a number of Australian beekeepers and Australia >regulatory personnel. None of them know anything about bee deaths >due to Kashmir B virus. Thanks that's good enough for me. >But since that isn't the story you want to hear, Andy, I'm sure >you'll keep repeating the question until it can pretend to be the >truth. Don't let reality stand in your way... Nick, I have no idea of why you would write such a thing unless maybe you are trying to be humorous in any case all are always welcome to correct anything I write or say and if I am wrong I will make the corrections necessary and apologize. I try to give my own personal opinion and report on the beekeeping news and hope to continue doing so without making personal attacks on individuals. Will most of the time, I still think Clinton is a scum bag but then I am not from Arkansas or a Democrat so his behavior may be normal with them but not with me. ttul, the OLd Drone World Wide Beekeeping News http://beenet.com/bnews.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:06:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Who pays for this? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > I am puzzled about one thing - who pays for all of this?. Well, the answer isn't as straight forward as one might think. BEE-L is hosted at the University at Albany, one of 4 universities in the State University of New York educational system (SUNY). SUNY also includes 17 colleges and the central administration (SUNY Central). So the short answer is BEE-L is "paid for" by the State of New York tax payers, but that would be an oversimplified answer. Student tuition also helps fund the SUNY budget as does alumni contributions, grants and whatever else funds a university budget. LISTSERV lists are considered a vital part of the University mission. The infrastructure on which all this runs (the Internet) is funded by the customers. So who pays? Well in part, YOU DO! The machine on which BEE-L is hosted and on which LISTSERV runs is an IBM 9672/R21 (funded by the University at Albany) and the technical support staff is part of the UA system whose duties encompass far more than the care and feeding of LISTSERV, they support the entire machine. LISTSERV is simply another product supported on the UA mainframe and BEE-L is only a subset of the services offered under the LISTSERV umbrella. There are about 50 lists supported at or served from UA. In the "pecking order" BEE-L is far down on the totem pole, but may receive preferential treatment because the owner coincidently is the former manager of the systems programming staff at the University. As Paul Harvey (an anouncer on American radio) would say, "And now you know the rest of the story." Aaron Morris - I think, thereore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:38:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Don Rahman Subject: (no subject) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone have plans for a vacuum powered swarm catcher? I have been catching swarms by hand and would like to try a vacuum on those hard to reach swarms. Thanks for any help you can offer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:52:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Kashmir Virus In-Reply-To: <98Jun22.142502nzst.26882@gateway.boppoly.ac.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Nick Wallingford wrote: > > "Has a dramatic loss of bees because of Kishmar Virus or > > suspected Kishmar virus happened or is happening in Australia?" > > I have spoken to a number of Australian beekeepers and Australia > regulatory personnel. None of them know anything about bee deaths > due to Kashmir B virus. > > But since that isn't the story you want to hear, Andy, I'm sure > you'll keep repeating the question until it can pretend to be the > truth. > > Don't let reality stand in your way... > Hi Nick and All, Kashmir B virus or various Bee viruses have been found where ever the reseachers have looked. Dr. Brenda Ball in the UK has a very good handle on Bee viruses.The problem is, is it the primary pathogen.There are to date 23 viruses known in honey bees.We gained 2 last year.That is in the world. The reality has to be acknowledged , bee viruses are all over the planet. If they are a problem, has to do with other factors affecting the bees.It costs a lot of money to detect a virus. So it has been very low on the list of pathogens to look at in regards to the honey bee.If we don't look, its not there. If we look it is there and not much can be done at this time.We have one antiserium at this time and that only works on one virus. The research needed to explore bee viruses is very costly.Some information is on the web. Look under Varroa- viruses. Dr Brenda Ball and Dr. Bailey have a book called, Honey Bee Pathology. (Academic Press Ltd. 1991). I have a copy and gives some bacic info on viruses. It is out of date, do to some of the work done over the last 3 years. One should not point fingers at any country, to state they have a problem with viruses.We all have a problem and how big of a problem is still up for debate.Of the research that has been done in the past , if you look you will find. Don't look and then there is no problem to report. Even if you find it, what are you going to do with it.There are many ramifications in opening pandores Box.Most countries don't want the box opened. They did a study in the USA. 8 states were investigated for Viruses, all 8 had some.The only thing that happened was a little research on the part of Varroa being a vector of the viruses. Lets not jump to high until we have more good information on viruses. I have a major problem in trying to find out some answers for myself. I have been following the virus problem for the last 3 years. I even put up a post 3 years ago as to the death of some of my hives. They died too fast for one to belive that the mite was the only pathogen present.It took 2 years for the USDA to acknowledge that the viruses had a play in the death of the hives.School is still out on this one and it will be a long time to get to the real answers. Everyone have a good day Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:46:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Homemade frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas, I use to make my frames and gave it up. From a woodworking point of view, it is time and labor intesive. I make all the other hive parts, but frames, mainly the end bars, are not worth it, as can be seen by your labor saving question concerning the end bars. You might want to purchase them separately. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME (Thomas) (Cornick) wrote: > I am thinking of making some frames .......snip... > Also making them would be > easier as well. > > Any opinions? Experiences? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:58:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Searching bees Comments: cc: SOCINSCT@cnsibm.albany.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On April 18th I posted a message on the network (both BEE-L and SOCINSCT), in which I stated the following: "...some of the regular columnists for the beekeeping magazines these past few years have steadfastly subscribed to the notion that truth is absolute. In particular, Tom Webster, Richard Taylor, Tom Seeley, Frank Eischen, and Steve Taber have strived very hard to keep the dance language hypothesis alive --- despite an ever-growing body of evidence at variance with that hypothesis." I also sent a copy of that message directly to Steve Taber (just as I have openly communicated with all of the above people). In my April message, I indicated that I would publish the design of a simple experiment that nearly anyone could conduct that would reveal the validity of the assertions made by the above people in their columns. Since then, the other two parts of the Taber contribution have appeared. In Part II of his series (May issue), Taber provided reference to a research publication (Bogdany, F.J. and Taber, S. 1979. "The significance of odor for bees orienting across a canyon." APIDOLOGIE. 10:55-62), a paper from which he gained some of the information underlying his assertions. I have now had the opportunity to study that contribution as well. In my perusal, it has become apparent that the Taber contributions collectively contain very little information about new developments of these past two or three decades. Nor are his statements internally consistent. For instance, consider the following items: 1) In Part I (April issue), Taber wrote: "...you can show that bees communicate with other bees by selecting a bee and placing her on a dish with sugar water or dilute honey far from her hive. You will see that in a few minutes other bees will arrive..." To make that claim, Taber had to ignore results provided in a 1973 paper by Friesen, already cited in Taber's 1979 paper (co-authored with Bogdany). Recruits do NOT begin to arrive in a few minutes (another myth). Taber also appeared unaware of Excursus GT in our 1990 Columbia University Press book, which indicates that the technique he described simply does not work (as I learned way back in the late 1950s). 2) Part I of the Taber series, again: Taber wrote that they had put their sugar solution onto paper toweling, but their published paper indicated they had used filter paper (a BIG difference). P. 133 of our 1990 book indicates why one should use filter paper (paper toweling has an odor that can aid searching recuits). 3) Part II (May issue of ABJ): "The male moth then flies toward the source of [the female odor] in a zigzag pattern until he locates the source of the odor." and "...when the bee is flying, she cannot detect any wind nor any odor plume..." Taber could have benefited from a study of Excursus OS of our 1990 book, a section that contains an update on the manner of odor search by all flying insects. The zigzag flight pattern Taber described indicates an upwind search for odor. 4) Part II, again: Taber wrote: "...if the wind is blowing...at 10 miles per hour and a bee flies at 10 mph, she will not go anywhere if she flies into the wind." He could have studied p. 303 and 304 of our 1990 book to learn that bees do not fly like airplanes - as I initially published back in 1963. 5) Part II, again: "We put the bees on a ridge crest and trained them to fly over a canyon to their feeding dish on a ridge on the other side of the canyon, over a mile (1609m) through the air." However, Bogdany and Taber gave 1200m in their 1979 paper. 6) "Part II, again: "No recruits came to any of the scented syrup dishes except the ones that the trained bees had given them directions to find by their dances." In their 1979 paper they claimed they had caught (and marked) a large percentage of the searching recruits at a scented observation station MIDWAY between hive and feeding place. Why would the searching bees stop and inspect a station midway to the "intended" goal if they had followed directions? ******** The editor of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL has indicated that he will consider publishing an article by me that will provide some balance to the issue at hand. That article will not dwell on the above muddled points. Instead, it will move into the 1990s and beyond. The first section of the article (now nearly complete in draft form) will clarify the degree to which searching bees rely on odor in their searching for a food source exploited by hivemates, the second section will elaborate upon some of the excellent evidence Friesen gathered in his early 1970s ingenious experiments (evidence ignored by Bogdany, Taber, and virtually all other bee language proponents), provide new results from our recent research on Santa Cruz Island (where we located well more than a hundred feral colonies only by necessarily ignoring the dance language hypothesis), and describe a simple experiment that anyone can do during a nectar shortage to determine for themselves the importance of odor and wind patterns. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "To cling rigidly to familiar ideas is in essence the same as * * blocking the mind from engaging in creative free play." * * * * David Bohm and F. David Peat 1987 * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:18:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: Re: (no subject) Hi Don, I use a vacuum cleaner and a five gal. bucket. I put two holes in the lid, one for the vac. and one for the hose . I use pvc fittings that match up with the vac. and hose. On the inside of the lid put something over the hole that goes to the vacuum,like screen, make it into a tube shape, half the length of the depth of the bucket,that way the bees do not clog up the vac. side. drill alot of small holes in the bucket to reduce the volume of the suction, so not to suck to hard. mount a large piece of screen in the middle of the bucket so the bees will have something to cling to,and climb up on so they will not die of suffocation. For ventilation put alarge piece of screen on an extra lid so after your done sucking the bees you can switch lids. Bees do generate a lot of heat. You could also use a wet and dry vac as vacuum and bucket. I use a hose with a smooth inside so the bees would slide easier. When the buckets of bees are waiting to be installed ,during the day I put them in a small room that is cooled by a swap cooler they can be kept that way for a couple days. If you have to reach back some where and you can't keep your hose straight enough just use a piece of pvc pipe,at what ever length you need. I hope this helps you out. God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:06:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George W Imirie Subject: Beekeeping Help on Wide World Web Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi! All Newbies and Bee Experts: Saturday, I attended the Maryland State Beekeepers Meeting, and two of the principal speakers were Dr. Scott Camazine and Dr. Diana Sammataro, both with the Honey Bee Research Dept. of Penn State University. As always, they were excellent speakers on timely subjects. However, MUCH MORE IMPORTANT, having gained a nice financial grant, the Mid Atlantic States of PA, MD, NJ, DE, AND WV have formed a CONSORTIUM to study honey bee problems and particularly strengthen the Extension Service in all 5 of the states. EVEN MORE IMPORTANT was the "discovery" of an existing WEB site about all kinds of things about bees and coming events and dates of bee meetings, etc. I came home and have been reading it ever since; and was particularly surprised (and pleased) to find my own name listed as a Workshop Instructor about Queens and Swarming at the July 12-18 E. A. S. meeting in PA. The Listing of me is totally UNimportant, but the "words of wisdom" as a help to beekeepers given in either of two WEB SITES is really great for us all. I hope you enjoy them, but more particularly UPGRADE yourself from maybe a beeHAVER to a much needed beeKEEPER. If you come to EAS, please say Hi to ole disabled George! George Imirie - 65 years with bees The two WEB SITE ADDRESSES: http://www.psu.edu/dept/beehive/ and http://apicultureNE.cas.psu. edu/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:51:31 GMT+0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University South Africa Subject: National Geographic Hi All Just a note to say check out this Nat geog for a really nice article on I think A.dorsata and the Raji's that live of them. Keep well Garth Garth Cambray Camdini Apiaries Grahamstown Apis mellifera capensis Eastern Cape Prov. South Africa Time = Honey After careful consideration, I have decided that if I am ever a V.I.P the I. may not stand for important. (rather influential, ignorant, idiotic, intelectual, illadvised etc) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: kferner@mcls.rochester.lib.ny.us Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kferner Subject: Wintering in NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are reading up on wintering our bees this year, instead of taking them to Florida. We have 100 hives and it's not worth the trip. We made some splits in April while they were in Florida, then they came up to NY in the middle of May. Big mistake. The splits are weak and are still building up now. Anyway, we need information on wintering the bees this winter. We are in Rochester, NY and heard alot of horror stories about wintering bees here. This will be our second year with our bees. I just purchased the book The Beekeeper's Handbook by Diana Sammatro and my husband said it is very helpful, but we would like to here of any positive results of anyone upstate wintering their bees. We both work full time and this is just a side thing for my husband, he loves taking care of the bees and spends hours with them and doesn't want to lose them over the winter (not to mention the money invested). Any help is greatly appreciated. Karen Ferner ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:43:12 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Pierco vs Permadent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It's been a while since I've written an update on what is happening here in Alberta. Summer is here and, with it, one of the earliest flows I can ever recall. Let's hope it lasts. Eric was saying he was going to pull honey this week, and that it is unthinkably early. We have some full supers too, but we did a fair bit of splitting and the brood boxes on the splits always absorb a fair bit of the first flow, so we are not under tremendous pressure to extract, yet. We will have to pull the hives down a bit, though, if this continues, since we have to move 1,800 onto canola seed pollination, and if the hives are heavy, the job will be impossible. As many list regulars will recall, we have added a lot of plastic foundation over the past few years. Two years ago we added 10,000 sheets of Permadent and have been using plastic sheets to renew about 2,500 old frames since then. This year we decided to try 10,000 Pierco standard frames. Here are some comments: Compared to the old way, wax and wire, Permadent was easy to install and handle. When complete, supers of Permadent can be trucked around and are not damaged by wind or rough handling or exposure to sun. Frames of Permadent can be used like follower boards in spring, then moved in to the centre of a brood chamber after being drawn, or when the time seems right. We found we could get them drawn simply by inserting several into supers that were leaving the honey house after extracting. Sitting over winter in supers in storage is no problem. The bees pick up where they left off the previous year. Frame spacing has not been critical, and we would often stick two into a Stoller spaced 8 frame super (standard 10 frame box) in positions 3 and 5. In self spacing supers, we would simply revert to 10 frames rather than 8 or 9 and use 3 plastic sheets in the centre, all adjacent. Sometimes they would return undrawn, but almost always got finished the next time out. Sometimes there would be an area that was drawn out for drones or brace comb, but it was easily scraped off and the bees would correct it the next trip onto a hive. The largest nuisance with sheet foundation is, of course, arranging the labour to install the foundation and to assemble the frames. The supplies must be obtained and then some management, skilled work, and delay is involved before the product can be used. Months elapse from the time the various supplies arrive until 10,000 frames are complete, and after completion they are a nuisance to handle, having to be transported in supers or stacked on pallets. Using Pierco frames eliminates these problems, since the frames arrive complete in cardboard boxes about 20 inches cubed and are easy to lug around. About two or three weeks after we made up our mind to buy, the frames arrived. The very same day we were installing them in supers on their way to the field. That night they were being drawn and filled with honey. Not so with the Permadent. It took weeks and months to get much of it into use. The Pierco frames we ordered are molded of black plastic -- not white. We decided, after our years of experience with RossRounds (r) equipment, that bees just like dark plastic better. Moreover, we expect that the frames will not look dirty after a few years like white plastic frames do. A bonus of this decision was that we could see the instant that the bees began to work on it, since the new wax is white and shows up strongly against the black foundation. Here is a really interesting observation: After adding supers with the Pierco one day, I decided to check some of our yards one evening at about 9 PM. the bees were up in the supers and I could see them drawing out the comb and storing honey on the black frames. A day later I returned in the mid-morning and found *no* bees up in the same supers. It struck me then again why it is so absolutely essential to add more supers to a hive in late spring than any novice beekeeper -- and many an experienced beekeepers -- thinks is necessary, because a sudden flow or warm spell sends the bees up, and, if one has not added supers, one will never know what might have happened. It happens fast and for short spurts when no one is looking. Those who fail to super well ahead of the bees will never even suspect what their bees might have done, given space. Anyhow, the Pierco is going fast, and over half of it is now in supers on the hives or on the way out. I am delighted with the ease of use. In looking into hives that have a sheet of permadent and a frame of Pierco, I seem to see the bees favouring the Pierco by a wide margin. Nonetheless, I must add that the Pierco was molded and waxed only a few weeks ago now, and the Permadent may have been in stock for a year or more. Does freshness matter? I suspect so. The fact that the Pierco foundation is black also exaggerates the new work by the bees because of the contrast. The same amount of drawing on a Permadent is not as obvious since the wax is white and so is the foundation. Anyhow, so far we are delighted with the Pierco. I hope we are as delighted when we are uncapping and extracting. Allen --- FAQs? There is no BEE-L FAQ - as such - but you can search for answers to most common questions by visiting http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/beel.htm or send email to LISTSERV@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU and say Search BEE-L KEYWORD(S) ('KEYWORD(S)' means a word or words unique to your question) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:30:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Winter in NY ... (Isn't that a song?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Karen Ferner states, "we need information on wintering bees in Rochester, NY...." The best advice I can offer regarding wintering bees in upstate New York (I'm located in the Saratoga vicinity) is first, make sure your bees are happy and healthy in the fall by following all the recommended fall medications: 1) Apistan for the period recommended on the label (two full brood cycles (6-8 weeks)) as soon as you pull your honey supers. Honey supers usually come off my hives on Oct 1. If the asters are still producing I may stretch it to Oct 15, but absolutely NO LATER! Even if you end up with runny honey (which still makes great mead). If strips go in on 10/1, Thanksgiving weekend is a good time to get them out. 2) 2 gallons of 2:1 (sugar:water) syrup medicated with Fumidil-B per hive. 3) Extender Patties (TM medicated grease patties, one per hive). In addition to the fall medications you'll want to pay attention to the mechanics of your hive. MOUSE GUARDS! Some beekeepers pooh pooh them, but in these parts mouse guards are absolutely necessary. Mice will appreciate it if you forget them, I assure you. And make sure you get them on BEFORE the mice move in. Sept 15 is a good rule of thumb date. Provide an upper entrance - upper entrances are especially important in the Great Lakes snow belt region where snow can easily accumulate to a depth that will cover the bottom entrance. All of my inner covers are notched (routed) to provide an upper entrance and ventillation. Some beekeepers drill auger holes in their brood chambers, but I prefer the notched inner cover. On hives with migratory covers I use Snelgrove boards to provide the upper entrance. The MOST IMPORTANT tip for winter survival in the catagory of paying attention to the mechanics of your hive is to take steps to guard against moisture build up in the hive. I have never wrapped my hives although I do use duct tape to close up any huge holes or cracks between brood chambers. And I mean HUGE cracks - your bees will show you where they are. If the spaces are small enough that the bees can't fit through I don't bother to tape them. Small cracks will improve the ventillation in your hive and combat moisture build up. THE BEST TIP i ever received regarding combatting moisture in the hive is to pack an empty super on top of your brood chambers and inner cover with straw. The straw in this empty super will absord the water vapor given off by the bees and help immensely with keeping them dry during the winter. Without this packing the water vapor will freeze on the inner cover and rain down on your bees on the first warm day. Wet bees are dead bees. Two other things I have overlooked are a healthy, vigorous, young queen and plenty of winter stores. At least 100lbs of surplus honey or syrup. Past few El Nino winters have been very mild and easy on the bees. Predictions for this winter are flip side El Nina with lots of snow and cold, so winter preparations may need special attention. However we won't really know until March '99. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:00:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Sevigny Subject: Re: Roaches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This year, I, too, have noticed what appear to be roaches on/in the hives. I live in a semi-rural area and have never seen them before. I have also seen them in the garden and on some grape vines. They fly if given the opportunity. I wasn't certain that they were roaches, but they sure do look like the same critters I used to see in Boston. On my hives, they are fewer in numbers only 5 or so per hive, and I've been killing them when I see them. I've seen them primarily on the outside of the hive and inside the outer cover. They seem a bit bolder (less skitish) than the urban dweller. I'm concerned, though. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Dixon Subject: Re: Homemade frames. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find that making frames is not difficult, but it does require some degree of care. The end bars only require three machining operations and do turn out as nice as the factory ones. It is easierfor me to make up two or three supers of frames rather than drive the 50 miles to buy them. E-mail me if you need instructions. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg Zujus Subject: Hive in wall Hello All, I have a question that I'm sure has been discussed many times on the list. I was asked today if I could retrieve a very active hive from the wall of a garage. I went and looked at the hive which is located adjacent to an external staircase on the building. The hive has several entrance/ exit holes and has been resident here for what I was told has been "several years ". There appears to be a "main" entrance located near the top of the hive and several smaller entrances several feet below the main entrance. The owner of the building will not allow me to make any holes or remove any boards from the structure. My plan of attack is to block all of the entrances except the main entrance at the top of the hive with silicone caulking. Then place a cone fashioned out of window screen over this entrance to allow the bees to fly out but not return to the hive. I have a single brood box hive which I will set on the step directly next to the coned entrance for the returning foragers to call home. Now my questions, since I won't be able to retrieve the queen I imagine I will need to put a queen into the hive I plan to set up on the step. When should I add this queen ? How long do I leave the hive on the step to ensure I have most of the hive ? As the queen in the old hive will remain actively laying, will the bees ever stop emerging from the hive ? I remember seeing something about having the bees actually "rob" the honey out of the old hive. How is this done ? Thanks in advance for all your wisdom. Greg Z Mystic, CT ____________________________________________ GJZ@MSN.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:13:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Morris Subject: Re: Neighbor's Complaints Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John, Start with finding or borrowing a copy of "Bees and the Law" by Murray Loring, DVM, JD, published by Dadant in 1981. I'm not a lawyer, but there are several points of law to be considered, the first is can they PROVE they are YOUR bees! The second is that the law generally holds that bees are not domesticated. If you know a beekeeper who is a lawyer, ask if they will look for precedents in S.C. regarding bees. Good Luck, David Morris Laurel, Md. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Banks Subject: My Beekeeping Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Here is the link to my personal website, which I just got up and running last night. http://www3.sympatico.ca/sgt.tibbs Hope you like it. Leave any comments or sugestions in the guest book area. I also have to thank my friend Larry Conway, for letting me use his digital camera and scanning my pictures for me. Thanks Larry! Thank You Allen Banks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:21:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Pierco Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I purchased 200 Pierco Frames this season to give 'em a try. Certainly cannot argue with the assertions that they are easy! They went from the suppliers shelf to the beekeeper's hives on the same day. Convenience with a capital C and no con! I have had a few instances where they were not drawn out to my liking, but a quick scrape with the hive tool and the bees get it right the next time. And if they don't, you can keep on runnin' that play until they do. However I do have some criticism. Now that he frames are drawn I find that when I pull the Piercos that they will bend and twist as I rotate them/flip them over to look at the other side. Not enough to cause damage or break the comb, but when they are torqued they don't have the rigidity of a wooden frame. Perhaps they will firm up after the bees have raised a few generations of brood in them, but right now they are rather flimsy. And as I've stated before, I simply like the look and feel of wood, which I guess will always be my preference if I have the time to work ahead to assemble them. If time allows I like wooden frames with plastic, beeswax coated foundation. But you really can't beat the savings in time and material offered by Pierco frames and I suspect they will become the industry standard. Aaron Morris - thinking wood's days are numbered! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Hive in wall Greg Z from Mystic, CT writes: "My plan of attack is to block all the entrances except the main entrance at the top of the hive with silicone caulking...Now my questions...I imagine I will need to put a queen into the hive I plan to set on the step. When should I add this queen? How long should I leave the hive on the step to ensure I have most of the hive? ...will the bees ever stop emerging...? ...having the bees actually "rob" the honey out of the old hive. How is this done?" I can't say I'm an expert in this area, but I have read about how to do it, "heard" comments on it from other posters on this list, and have a few ideas based on my current experience of doing it right now (in process). I used "Great Stuff" foam insulation rather than silicone caulking, but I suppose either should work. Another alternative would just be to cover the extra holes with small pieces of screen. The important point is to have no bees coming or going out except by one entrance (the main one is probably as good a choice as any). Posters to this list have suggested putting frames with drawn comb and or foundation in the hive body and then introducing a queen to it after they start getting it built up. What I did was what was suggested in Eva Crane's book (I think the title is "Bees and Beekeeping: science, practice, and world resources") and that was to put one or two frames with a laying queen as a nucleus hive for the other bees to join. Things seem to be going fine with that setup. In other words, I started out with a queen there already and just a couple of frames of bees, the rest being empty/foundation. The recommended time to leave the hive in place was about 6 weeks. That would give you time to go through about two generations of workers, and since no new nectar or pollen would be coming in, the queen should decrease laying during that time. The colony numbers should then be low (in theory) and not able to protect their stores from robbing. Posters to this site have suggested bringing in a different hive at the end to do the "robbing" of the stores left in the wall. The book said you can just take off the one-way exit cover and let the hive you have in place do the robbing. I think either way will probably work, but have not yet decided exactly how I will do it. I'll make that decision when I come to it. With bees robbing, fighting and stinging, I'd say there is a good chance that the old queen will be killed in the melee. If not, then there will be no stores or sufficient workers to recover, and the remaining bees should starve and die out. When the hive has been robbed out with little or no remaining brood (in theory) then it should be possible to seal all entrance holes and have little to worry about, especially since you have a garage you're dealing with. Otherwise, the wax comb might melt and stain the walls if the temperature is hot. Those are just some of my thoughts. My "experiment" seems to be working. I'll bet there are several ways it could be done and probably they would all work. Good luck and have fun. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:21:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Re: Pierco Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! damage or break the comb, but when they are torqued they don't have the rigidity of a wooden frame. Perhaps they will firm up after the bees have raised a few generations of brood in them, sorry..IMHO..they do not firm up as might be expected..more honey you have on the foundation,more flexible this foundation becomes.. If time allows I like wooden frames with plastic, beeswax coated foundation. I use Permadent for ALL my foundation..no "flexibilty".. beat the savings in time and material offered by Pierco frames and I suspect they will become the industry standard. maybe..I use an air-gun to "snap" the woodenware with the permadent foundation..yes.I make my own frames and this definitely is cost effectivve. I have a COMPLETE instruction on the use if Pierco frames at this location http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ Aaron Morris - thinking wood's days are numbered! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:08:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Richard H. Glassford II" Subject: My hive swarmed ! Comments: cc: glassman@utah.uswest.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I bought a nuc on April 25. I feed 1:1 surgar solution the entire time. This last week they decided to take off. A very large swarm took to the skies. When is the swarming season over? I am South of Salt Lake City in Zone 5. I retrived the swarm and decided to put them back together after puting them in a box. I did not want a new hive. They everything seems to be fine. There are a lot of bees now in that hive. I have placed a queeen excluder on top of the second brood chamber and placed a honey super on top. They have not gone into the honey super yet. Was placing them back together the wrong thing to do? I did go through and kill all the queen cells I could find before putting her (and her many sisters) back with those they left behind. Having honey bees has been a great experience for our family. My wife and I have a hive along with my parents and kids. How far do bees travel for nectar? There is a lots of flowering alfalfa in the hills behind my house with some clover in the field below. We have many Lindon trees within 2 miles of the hives. Do any of you have hives in bear country? My wifes father has a lot of land in the mountains and I would like to put hives up there. There are bears in the area. Good luck, Rich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:50:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Dadant/apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! I received this message in my guestbook area...so much for wellmarrk's warnings about the proper use of apistan. I left out the person's email address..if your really curious..you could look for the "address"..hint! Wed Jun 24 13:55:18 1998 Location: Geneva, FL 32732 E- mail: Comments:Concerning varroa, after moving here from Ohio in '94, I decided to get back into bees, and in early '95 went to the DADANT store in UMATILLA FL to buy supplies. The head guy was most helpful, but when asked about the application of Apistan, he said, 'Oh I just leave the strips in all the time.' Well, I didn't, but now that I hear about Apiatan resistance here in Central Florida, I wonder how many other people he said this to, and just how much he may have had to do with the resistance buildup. Holly-B Apiary P.O.Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:39:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert E Butcher Subject: Re: Ants in and on hive Hi , does anyone know of a good non chemical way of keeping out them stinking little ants? God Bless You Robert&Teresa Butcher bobbees@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BILL HUGHES JR Subject: Pierco Update I use some Pierco Frames in the brood nest, but I mainly use them in med. supers. They hold more honey than wooden frames, but I am experimenting this year with Ritecell snap in foundation. Like you I prefer the feel of wood over plastic anyday. ____ Bill Hughes Bent Holly Honey Farm Brighton, Tennessee USA TO: BIOLOGY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:59:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Pierco vs Permadent Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Allen and All: My experiences with Pierco and Permadent are a little different. I agree with all the comments about handling and ease of use. I used 2000 Pierco last year and another 2000 this spring. I used the same amount of permadent this spring. My Pierco were white. >Sometimes there would be an area that was drawn out for drones or brace >comb, but it was easily scraped off and the bees would correct it the next >trip onto a hive. I found this to be a serious nuisance. I had little trouble with the permadent, but a lot with the pierco. I did not have nearly the same degree of problem last year with the pierco, but they went on during clover flow. This year the bees were stronger earlier and the pierco went on in blueberries. The batch lots and supplier of pierco were different this year as well. What I found was that the bees just seemed to detest working the pierco, although they were waxed, and the boxes were baited with a centre and two outside combs (I had no more drawn comb available, I believe last year I had five per box -- another difference). I had LOTS of drone comb bridging the combs, and I even had complete skinny combs built in between two pierco frames in places where the frames were slightly apart ( and I was using ten frame boxes). Last year when I alternated combs I found the old combs drawn very wide and the piercos were drawn only slightly. I did not consider this much of a problem as I figured they would continue them this year, which they have. At least the comb was regular. I do not have the time to be scraping off all this bridge comb and as many of these combs are in the second box they would not normally be going to the honey house, although now they may have to. It was not a problem for you Allen, but it is for me. >looking into hives that have a sheet of permadent and a frame of Pierco, I >seem to see the bees favouring the Pierco by a wide margin. Nonetheless, >I must add that the Pierco was molded and waxed only a few weeks ago now, >and the Permadent may have been in stock for a year or more. Does >freshness matter? I suspect so. My experience is the opposite. In mixed boxes my bees seeme to prefer the permadent. They are drawing it nice and straight. In fairness I should say that there are not that many mixed boxes, and generally the pierco went on before the permadent (because of the convenience) and the honey flow was stronger later. But you commented on the importance of supering early. It is important, but it is not a practice that will be encouraged if the bees are going to screw up the comb before the main flow. With natural wax the bees sometimes chewed a few holes in it if the timing was poor, but it certainly was a lot more attractive to the bees, and with new straight frames well wired I could count on box after box of perfect combs. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:40:44 -0400 Reply-To: gmaloney@gis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: gmaloney Subject: Ants in Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was going to spread Diazinon around the ground under the hives but have decided to take a spray bottle with soapy water with me when working the hives along with a jug of fresh water. I am going to quickly take the inner cover off and spray the ants, let it sit for a couple of minutes and then rinse it off. I will let you know the results. Has anyone else tried this. Gary Maloney gmaloney@gis.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:50:26 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Matheson Subject: Kashmir bee virus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bee World, a journal of the non-profit organisation the International Bee Research Association, recently contained an article entitled 'The incidence and world distribution of honey bee viruses' (77(3): 141-162; 1996). The authors were Mark Allen and Brenda Ball of Rothamsted Research Station in the UK. Kashmir bee virus has been reported from Apis cerana from India and Papua New Guinea, and from Apis mellifera from Australia, Papua New Guinea, Fiji, New Zealand, the Solomon Islands, Canada, the USA and Spain. About Kashmir bee virus the authors of this article say "subsequent surveys and infectivity tests (in Australia) confirmed that it was common there both as inapparent and overt infections; up to 40% of health pupae were inapparently infected with KBV but the percentage of infection varied from year to year. Strains of KBV were also detected in both A. mellifera and A. cerana from other countries in Australasia, and for many years it was thought that the virus was present only in bees from this region. More recently, strains of KBV have been isolated from dead, field-collected adult bees from Canada, the USA and Spain, and infectivity tests on adult bees in the USA show that KBV is a widespread inapparent infection." This article, which is heavily referenced, and other information on KBV is available from the International Bee Research Association: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk. Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:00:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Varroa Floors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All As you are most likely aware, Ireland now has varroa. Since I now must instal varroa floors in all of my hives, I was wondering if I could ask for any design improvements or innovations which members may have carried out to the standard floor design (if there is such!). Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:25:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Arturo Otero Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all: Is it possible that anyone explain me what is a varroa floor?? Arturo Otero Mar del Plata Argentina ----------------------------------------- |UNIVERSIDAD NACIONAL DE MAR DEL PLATA | | | =20 | Ing. Arturo Otero | | Centro de C=F3mputos | | Coordinaci=F3n de Inform=E1tica | | |=20 | aotero@mdp.edu.ar | | | ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James P Parkman Subject: Apistan package strips In-Reply-To: <19980621.161828.9366.2.bobbees@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know of a source for Apistan package (2.5%) strips? All the major suppliers (i.e. bee keeping suppliers) apparently have exhausted their supply for the year. Thanks. Pat Parkman Knoxville, TN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:43:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Beekeeping Correspondence Course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "A beekeeping course is offered by Penn State Distance Education and is called Beekeeping AG 5126. Their phone number is (800) 252-3592. The course material includes a video tape called Why Honey Bees? and a book: Collison, Fundamentals of Beekeeping, Ag Info Services, Penn State. The course cost is $74." Does anyone have more information on this course? Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:57:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Ants in and on hive Robert and Teresa Butcher ask if anyone knows of a good non chemical way of keeping stinking little ants out of their beehive(s). First, I would try to figure out what kind of ants I had. Little is a relative term. In the South, fire ants are not attracted so much to sugar as they are to protein and moisture. so they will generally be in a hive to eat bees and brood, eggs and pollen, but will go to nectar or moisture. Other ants, including Argentine ants in Southern California, like sweets and so would go for the honey. I think Carpenter ants are also insectivorous, so would most likely be going for bees, brood and pollen. Any way, first figure out what kind of ants you have (if you can) and then your strategy might vary. A couple of "non-chemical" ways to keep ants out of hives would be to put the hive on a stand with legs and set the legs in cans, then put sand in the cans about half full, and finally pour some old motor oil in to soak the sand. Ants will normally not cross this barrier. I have not tried it personally, but have talked to others who have and they say it works well. Another thing to try might be to have your stand with legs and put some tanglefoot around on the legs to create a barrier that the ants would not cross. The next method I'll mention is "marginally" chemical, but you might be willing to rationalize it because of the application method. Boric acid mixed into something like apple mint jelly acts as a stomach poison on ants that like sweets (probably most other insects that would eat it too). I'd want to create a setup where bees could not get to it, and put out some apple mint jelly with boric acid stirred into it until it dissolved (the exact proportion is probably not too important, but since the insects do not recognize it as a poison and eat it freely, probably the more the better--maybe half and half), then put it where you see the trail of ants so they will find it and eat it. They will take it back to their nest and it will kill the queen (or queens if there are multiple queens) and the entire nest. This is a neat trick to get rid of Pharoah ants inside of walls of buildings too. Now if it were fire ants, I would put down a bait such as Amdro that the ants would again collect and take back to their nest and kill the queen. I have never seen bees interested in Amdro (admittedly it is chemical), but it is not a spray, and if you put it on the ground around the perimeter of the hive, then none at all should enter the hive. This works for fire ants, and possibly carpenter ants--anyway it works for ants that will "take the bait." I hope some of these ideas might work for you. They are the things I would try. There may be others that would work, but these are the ones I am familiar with. Good luck and best wishes. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:49:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: RE : Hive in Wall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greg Z wrote: "Now my questions, since I won't be able to retrieve the queen I imagine I will need to put a queen into the hive I plan to set up on the step. When should I add this queen ? How long do I leave the hive on the step to ensure I have most of the hive ? As the queen in the old hive will remain actively laying, will the bees ever stop emerging from the hive ? I remember seeing something about having the bees actually "rob" the honey out of the old hive. How is this done ?" ***** I am doing 5 bee removal projects at various locations in my community. It is an easy eay to remove bees and virtually 100$ guaranteed. Here are my recommendations. Instead of silicon gel (bees get stuck in this), use the expanding foam that you can buy in a can. It turns hard yellow right away and is easy to fill large holes and cracks. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, use a queenright bait hive. A new swarm is a good candidate or take a few brood frames and introduce a new queen. However, bee aware that sometimes there is a large field force trnsfering from the wall colony that will now take up residence in the bait hive. They may kill your newly introduced queen. I have had this happen a couple times but the bees still call the bait hive home while making a new queen. Allow 6-8 weeks for the transfer to take place. The hive in the wall needs to cycle through the bees. Without pollen or nectar coming in the wall queen will slow down her egg laying and the wall population will dwindle down quickly. Sadly, the wall queen goes down with the ship. But remember she has helped the bait hive get a fast start. :) YOu can let the bait hive bees rob out the old hive but I prefer not to do this for fear of disease. BTW I charge for bee removal projects depending on the complexity. I do not charge for removing swarms as I consider this "gold" hanging on branches. Good luck Paul Cronshaw DC Hobby Beekeeper in Santa Barbara, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:23:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Greg J Zujus Subject: Mites I am currently tending to some old hives for an old beekeeper who has lost intrest. The hives have not been tended or medicated in 5 years. One hive is very strong (4 deeps) and the other is a swarm that came out of the larger hive and landed in some old equipment that was left in the apiary. When checking the brood chamber of the smaller hive I noticed numerous little mites running about on top of the frames. Now I am not sure what kind of mites these are or if they even effect the bees. I don't think the smaller hive will produce any honey this year but the larger hive is producing honey now. My question is should I do some kind of mite treatment now ? If so what can I use during the honey flow. Greg Z Mystic, CT _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:08:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Wilkerson Subject: Re: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg J Zujus wrote: > When checking the brood chamber of the smaller hive I noticed numerous > little mites running about on top of the frames. Now I am not sure what > kind of mites these are or if they even effect the bees. My question is should I do some kind of mite > treatment now ? > Greg Z > Mystic, CT > Greg, Florida as had a beelte outbreak back in May.(East coast) I saw samples today, they are about 5-7mm in lenght and dark brown/black in color and originated from Africa. Much larger than a Varroa mite. The beetle lives on the honey and pollen within the hive and kills the brood when they tunnel through the wax. Reading the literature it mentions the bees cannot stand the smell of these beetles and will vacate their own hive and no other bees will rob the honey. The honey will start to run out of the cone and pool in the bottom of the hive. They will run at the sign of light and are active outside the hive at night. I don't won't to speculate or even suggest these are the same so please take this as information only. John Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:14:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Boric acid ant baits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit 5% boric acid is the strongest bait I have seen in any commercially available ant bait. 2% is more common. Tom in CT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:01:42 +0300 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home Subject: Re: varroa floor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hope you can see http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/bodem.html Arturo Otero wrote: > > Hello all: > Is it possible that anyone explain me what is a varroa floor?? > ------------------------------------------------- home of the drone frame method. de darreraat methode ------------------------------------------------- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html Jan Tempelman / Ineke Drabbe | mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl Sterremos 16 3069 AS Rotterdam, The Netherlands Tel/Fax (SOMETIMES) XX 31 (0)10-4569412 ------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:24:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mcmanus Subject: Re: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Greg I use a combination of honey/water mixed with pepperment oil, throughout the season because it is not a chemical. 1. Mix two cc's of pepperment oil into a pint jar of warm (70-75 F.) honey, needs to be warm for the oil to blend into the honey. Be sure the jar has a lid cause as soon as you put in the oil it starts to disperse into the air. 2. After you have mixed the oil, use equal amount of water, which does not need to be as warm and mix the two together. Keep the lid on until you are ready to use it. 3. Put into a spray bottle and lightly spray the tops of the frames of the brood chamber. The pepperment oil fumigates the hive for varroa mites and leaves the hive quickly. Spray about every three to five days, this should get rid of the varroa, but if you still find some after two weeks, set up a regular routine and they should be gone after a cycle or two. ---------- > From: Greg J Zujus > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Mites > Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 2:23 PM > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:18:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Mites In-Reply-To: <19980625.142308.15742.0.gjz2@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:23 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >When checking the brood chamber of the smaller hive I noticed numerous >little mites running about on top of the frames. Now I am not sure what >kind of mites these are or if they even effect the bees. I don't think >the smaller hive will produce any honey this year but the larger hive is >producing honey now. Hi Greg, Sometimes in a weak hive other mites and other insects will be noticed when the hive is first opened after a long period of (beenign neglect). Most all the mites found in bee hives are light sensitive and will scurry for cover when exposed to the light of day. If the mites are pin head sized, reddish brown, and oval in shape they may be varroa mites. To make sure you could check to see if you can find some attached to the bees themselves and on the pupa of any drone brood between the supers, (if any). > My question is should I do some kind of mite >treatment now ? If so what can I use during the honey flow. If you do not intend to use the honey, other then to feed that hive, from the smaller hive you could treat it at any time using the recommended number of strips and length of time. I would reduce it to a single, if possible, and use the number of strips recommended. I would warn that if the hive is already weak because of a old or failing queen, and has mites, it could be more economical to rebuild the hive with a nuc or divide and a young queen after destroying the old bees and queen and putting the original hive and frames in storage for a length of time so that all mites are dead. Thirty days is reasonable and seven will do the job for most hives. Sounds extreme but I am talking economics knowing full well that some would spend a $1,000. on health care for a stray cat because they have money and love cats, and I would not. From the bigger hive I assume you are planing on using the honey, you should wait to treat until you have removed the honey if you intend to treat it. This not only reduces the far out chance that you will get harmful chemicals in the honey but will reduce the area that needs to be treated and increase the effectives of the treatment and reduce the costs. If you are NOT going to consume the honey, I still would remove the honey before treatment. I would add that if the hive is in all other respects "healthy" and has survived with a low level of mite infestation or no visual mites I would consider NOT treating it at all. IMHO: Prophylactic treatments for mites is a waste of money and may be the good bee farming practice as preached by the majority and the chemical dusty's but only gets you a seat on the pesticide merry-go-around like most every other farmer. You will not be alone! You may be wondering how come the smaller hive has Varroa mites or more mites then the larger hive? All hives that have mites if they collapse for any reason will have more mites at the end then at the beginning of the collapse. So a 2nd swarm with less and maybe older bees would have more mites then a prime swarm. No different then a flattened cat that does not die right away, when it does die depending on the length of time it lingers on, it will have a population of flea's that anyone who does not know its history prior to its death will say the flea's surely killed that flat cat when you and I know it died because of the Mac truck that made it a flat cat in the first place. Treatment of the cats flea's will reduce their numbers to zero but will not overcome the fact that the flat cat is going to die sooner then later. The state of the art is such that it is not know how many mites per 100 or 1,000 bees should be a treatment level. It has never been demonstrated that adding any number of varroa mites to a healthy hive has any dramatic effect on that hive. And because all honeybees have several defence mechanisms against mites some could be afflicted less then others, or not at all. The "rule" in beekeeping is "that for every rule there is an exception". As for the treatment of bees for Varroa mites I believe that the majority of beekeepers in the US have been stuck on the pesticide merry-go-around and will not easily find a way off because their government regulators do not believe they are mature enough to use any farm chemicals reasonably and has collaborated with the chemical industry to keep them hooked on chemicals by forcing them to use a few products that do not work as advertised and are inflated in price by 1000x above what they should cost. Others say its the "American" Way,.. *(because of our censors I have removed the short graphic description of what the "American" Way really has become.)*, but if you get em down you stick it too em, and if you can pay your government to protect you in doing it, you can charge em any amount for the pleasure you get from doing it to them. Thats the new "American" way...today its called "value added". My hope that a few so called "hobby" beekeepers will follow a different road and resist using chemicals at all no matter what any good bee regulator or bee doctor tells you. (If its the LAW I advise all to follow it.) My gut feeling is it will be years before the commercial bee industry wakes up and does the same even if the last Varroa mite on earth was to have disappeared or all bee hives were full and healthy. Good Luck, ttul, the OLd Drone http://beenet.com (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:22:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Pierco vs Permadent In-Reply-To: <199806250459.AAA17451@mail1.auracom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Stan Sandler wrote: > Hi Allen and All: > > My experiences with Pierco and Permadent are a little different. I agree > with all the comments about handling and ease of use. I used 2000 Pierco > last year and another 2000 this spring. I used the same amount of permadent > this spring. My Pierco were white. > > >Sometimes there would be an area that was drawn out for drones or brace > >comb, but it was easily scraped off and the bees would correct it the next > >trip onto a hive. Hello All, I have 2,000 + frames of permadent and about 500 frames of rite cell and about 70 frames of pierco. My observation is as follows: Any plastic foundation needs a good flow and seeded.You will get different results depending on temperature and streingth of flow.I have some pierco frames that turned out great on strong hives with a great flow. I have some with a lot of brace comb from weaker hives. Permadent- Rite cell did just a little better in the same hives. Placement and spacing are important factors. In a heavy flow the girls go on auto pilot and would draw out cardboard if it was given to them.In weak flows permadent did a little better , but need a strong hive.I have been using plastic foundation for over 10 years now and will never go back to wax. This year I have some great queens. I have pierco frames that are wall to wall brood. What a site.One frame had 6 empty cells on one side and the rest full.The economics is wonderful. Pierco will have more cells per frame.The problem is getting the frames in at the right time to be drawn out right.If the bees start brace comb and you can't check them all the time, you can be in real trouble with labor. You can clean it off and start over ,thats a great plus.If you have brood in there , do you want to waist the bees. I will try some of the black frames from pierco that Allen has and see if they work better.Beekeeping has many variables to deal with, so works one place may not work another.Here in western Washington US it has been a very slow and wet spring. We are about 2 weeks behind in one way , honey yeild. My bees are packed in tight with 3 supers on them right now. Very little honey completely capped.They have been slow to draw out new foundation.If we get some heat all heck will break loose. Allen made a comment about supering. Put plenty on , for you do not know what you are loosing. Real beekeepers know that from expierence. One week of hot weather can fill up all of your supers , with either type of foundation.If you had another box on, it could have been filled also.With either type of foundation on, they would do a great job. Best Regards Roy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:40:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: slatted racks revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I searched the BEE-L archive for previous discussion about the use of slatted racks. The consensus seemed to be that slatted racks may improve ventilation in the hive, and may also cut down on entrance drafts, thereby encouraging the bees not to chew on the bottom of the frames in the bottom brood box. However, not too many people were able to comment on slatted racks first hand--that is, it didn't seem as though many people were using them. So, I'm essentially trolling for people who have (or currently are) using slatted racks. Do you feel using the slatted rack made a difference? Did you encounter any disadvantages? Personally, I'm leaning towards using a slatted rack, because I'm brand-new to [hobby] beekeeping and have exactly one (1) hive that I obtained as a nuc last week. I have the luxury of being able to afford (in terms of time and money) to pamper my bees, if indeed using a slatted rack can be considered pampering. ;) However, if there are trade-offs to using a slatted rack, I'd (obviously) like to know about them before making a decision. Thanks, James -- James Ralston / Systems & Networks / Computing and Information Services University of Pittsburgh / 600 Epsilon Drive / Pittsburgh PA 15238-2887 "Computer, you and I need to have a little talk." - O'Brien, ST:DS9 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:06:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Gerald L Barbor" Subject: Re: Pierco I've been reading all of the posts concerning Pierco et.al. and thought I'd throw my two cents worth in, as my results were not as favorable as those replying thus far. I started with mediums in extracting supers three years ago and the bees seemed to work them very well. The only problem I had with them was the sticking of "top and bottom bars" which made separation of supers difficult, and sometimes stirred the ladies up more that I wanted to as I pried the frames from the bottom of the super I was removing. I could live with that. My problem came in using full depth frames. The bees would rather swarm that work the frames. I used it in splits along with feeding and I left it on during the nectar flow. I don't think I ever used a whole HB as a honey super during a flow (get too heavy for an old guy), but all in all I found them much more difficult to use than wax foundation. If they drew it at all, they made more cross comb that anything. I finally gave up and had a great $300.00 fire. Believe I'll stick with wax for now. Jerry in PA _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:35:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: Roaches just thought to mention that here in florida,usa, where the african small hive beetle has been recently reported and identified as a first find in the hemisphere, folks have commented on how similar it appears to small roaches scurrying about when opening the hive and could be easily mistaken for them before obvious damage is noticed, and even then the larva can be confused with wax moth larvae up to a point.... check out the pest alert at: http://extlab1.entnem.ufl.edu/PestAlert/ also look for the upcoming (july'98) issue of the apis newsletter for more info at: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Ants in and on hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert E Butcher wrote: > > Hi , does anyone know of a good non chemical way of keeping out them > stinking little ants? This has always worked for me- place green leaves, grape or sumac fronds do well, between the top and inner cover. They will soon leave. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: vcoppola@froggernet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vince Coppola Subject: Re: Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andy Nachbaur wrote: > As for the treatment of bees for Varroa mites I believe that the majority of beekeepers in the US have been stuck on the pesticide merry-go-around and will not easily find a way off because their government regulators do not believe they are mature enough to use any farm chemicals reasonably Hi Andy, can you explain how we could get off the chemical merry go round if we were allowed to use "any farm chemical". and has collaborated with the chemical industry to keep them hooked on chemicals by forcing them to use a few products that do not work as advertised My observation is that Apistan (I assume you are refering to it since its the only chemical we are "forced"? to use) works as advertised. I do not feel I am forced to use it but that its the only thing available. I would gladly use another method of control if only someone could tell me how. and are inflated in price by 1000x above what they should cost. That would be $0.0015 each. Sounds good to me but I doubt there is a business that would do it. The only industry that seems to be able to work with 3rd world prices is our own. Thats a choice, for whatever reason, each beekeeper must make, but it wrong to think that others should. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:05:23 -0500 Reply-To: neonmarv@iso.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marvin Walker Subject: Evodia Trees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been trying to find some Evodia Trees. I have not had any luck on the internet. Does anyone know of a source for this tree? Thanks in advance. Marvin Walker Springdale, Arkansas -- MZ=90 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:15:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Oberle Subject: Re: Pierco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My problem came in using full depth frames. The bees would rather >swarm that work the frames. I used it in splits along with feeding and >I left it on during the nectar flow. I don't think I ever used a whole >HB as a honey super during a flow (get too heavy for an old guy), but all >in all I found them much more difficult to use than wax foundation. If >they drew it at all, they made more cross comb that anything. I finally >gave up and had a great $300.00 fire. Believe I'll stick with wax for >now. > The only times that I have had problems with cross comb and wild comb is when I tried to use only 9 frames of foundation. The bees badly cross combed everything pierco, and duraguilt. Of course all I had to do was scrap the bad comb off of the pierco. not so for the duraguilt. I wish you wouldnt have burned them. I would have been glad to take them off of your hands. Thanks Michael Oberle NTS1@ix.netcom.com Network Technical Services Inc. Minnesota The state where absolutely nothing is allowed. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: wwfarm@WCTEL.NET Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Organization: Wood Widgeon Farm Subject: Re: slatted racks revisited MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've had bees for just over a year, so I'm definitely a newbee. I do have a good mentor though and have done lots of homework and fieldwork. I put slatted racks in 3 of my 12 hives. We're in our 6th week of hot and dry (95-100 F) after a strong spring flow. One of my Italian hives has been covered completely with bees at night and during the days. This became a problem when I added 8 hives of Buckfasts that are over fighting with my outdoor bees (they're aggressive feeders all right, gentle to humans but rough on other bees though I'm sure the weather is a factor). We added the rack last week on that hive and the reduction in bees outside is dramatic. The other hives with racks are smaller but it has reduced bridge comb to the bottom and gives me more room to work with trackboards and other mineral oil treatments for the vampires. In this weather the ventilation sure can't hurt either. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:27:08 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Moriarty Subject: Re: chemicals and bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am no great fan of agricultural chemicals, however, I think it instructive to note that back in 1978 (when I took weed science at ag school), it costed $10,000,000 to clear a given chemical for a given crop. If total crop value is below a certain point, the combination of costs to clear and liability absorbed do not justify development. Could this be the reason for the dearth of products for varroa? Aloha, Mike Moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:23:53 -0400 Reply-To: beekeepr@bellsouth.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Re: Homemade frames. In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980623143231.0067d728@sd70.bc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I pay $8.50 US for a set of 10 frames. Now I have the tools but I can not make a set of frames in less than an hour per set. I doubt that I could approach the quality of those I buy. So I buy them and use my time building hive bodies, bottom boards, tops etc. Frank Humphrey beekeepr@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:43:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Ants in and on hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:21 AM 6/26/98 -0400, you wrote: >Robert E Butcher wrote: >> >> Hi , does anyone know of a good non chemical way of keeping out them >> stinking little ants? > >This has always worked for me- place green leaves, grape or sumac fronds >do well, between the top and inner cover. They will soon leave. Hi Bee Friends, Never tried this, don't have inner covers, but it sounds like a real good idea. There was a report years ago for SA that beekeepers did nothing for Varroa in much of the area for mites but one was found that used your idea for Varroa but used Tomato plants. I don't know if any work was ever done on this, I doubt it as little money would be in it. I think he covered the hives with tomato plants. I wonder what effect it would have on bees to be placed in a tomato field or hive tomato plants gowning between the hives? For piss ants and grease eating ants here some beekeepers use agricultural sulfur or ground sulfur and a lawn spreader to lay wide lines of sulfur around their bee yards and bee hives. (It don't rain here during our long brown season.) This also works for keeping the skunks out of the bees as they lick their paws and fur and don't like the sulfur. AJAX and other scouring cleansers dusted around bee hives may also keep the ants out. I would not put it out in a way the bees would get into it or put it in the hive itself. Boric acid dust works for ants and roach's. The real secret to keeping happy healthy bees is to find bee yard sites that are high and dry and free of these pests. (I know your back yard is the only choice for many but then hive stands with the feet in old motor oil is 2nd best.) Some nice looking bee sites are abandoned by beekeepers because of these problems and just about any commercial beekeeper has a list of these yards found from hard experiences. I had several bee yards that the ant's and roach's required more time and labor to keep out of the bees then the bees themselves and then the next year it was the same thing over again. For skunks, and it is true that if you are really having a problem the bees will meet you at the gate. Anyway I have trapped then alive, shoot them, rocked them and been sprayed on by them. In Colorado it was so bad that they would come out and start eating the bees in the late afternoon before you would leave the yard. Anyway unless you have lots of time the only way that really has worked for me is to poison the little guys. And I have had them for pets, but they are like anything else in nature, if the food is in good supply they will breed themselves up to populations and do a lot of damage. What you do depends on your own personality and conditions, laws in your neighborhood. There still are good poisons that work and are sold for gophers and the like. The last good lap dog I had ate some of these coming home one night from moving bees and died without a whimper with her head on my lap on the seat of the truck. I kept the gopher bait in its original "child proof" bottle which was not dog proof. It was my fault for keeping it in a box on the truck seat and I did not think... I only mention this as a warning of what can happen even today when our choice of materials has been reduced to a few that are supposed to be safe but "thinking" remains an option even with these. I have used stuff without accident that was guaranteed to kill an 80 pound mouse, and other stuff that was guaranteed to give the users wife and kids cancer all of which are no longer available. In the old days few commercial beekeepers had not killed their family dog gassing comb rooms and as those who burn sulfur have burned down their comb storage room. Lucky for us we can still burn sulfur and many do using a old land/sea van box has saved many a honey barn and is great for treating hive bodies with wax worms. ttul, the OLd Drone Believe it or Not, Beekeeping News as it happens or sooner in some cases like slow news days. http://beenet.com/benews.htm (c)Permission is given to copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)OPINIONS are not necessarily facts. USE AT OWN RISK! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:57:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John R. Valentine" Subject: Re: Neighbor's Complaints Comments: cc: Wakelema@compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bee Friends, "Neighbors Complaints" must always be treated very seriously. I know in at least one CT town, because of "Neighbor's Complaints," a town ordinance to regulate bees was created. There is no grandfather claus (exemptions) with town ordinances. Because of the "can they PROVE they are YOUR bees!" mentality all beekeepers in that town were affected. "BEE a considerate neighbor." John CT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:43:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Christopher Slade Subject: mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Andy Natchbaul says it is not known how many mites per given quantity of bees should be a treatment level for varroa. He may well be correct for conditions in the USA especially as there so many regional variations in climate etc. In the UK the Ministry of Agriculture's Central Science Laboratory has just published a pamphlet entitled Varroa jacobsoni: monitoring and forecasting mite populations within honey bee colonies in Britain. It is based upon a computer simulation model which can estimate both the number and distribution of mites within a colony at any time. This allows monitoring methods to be quantified and changes in the mite population to be forecasted. It is used in conjunction with a circular slide rule which gives an idiot's guide as to whether to treat or not depending on the estimated number of mites in the colony and the time of year. It is emphasised that the beekeeper must monitor the mite population and the leaflet gives intructions how to do this. The advantage is that unnecessary treatments are avoided as they involve loss of time or money and may increase mite resistance and residues in honey, but the beekeeper must be confident that the colony will not collapse if treatment is delayed. The Varroa Mite Model means that a beekeeper can assess the present scale of the problem and forecast the future level of infestation. This increases the efficience of mite control and saves both time and money. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:00:38 +0100 Reply-To: luichart.woollens@virgin.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Organization: Luichart Woollens Subject: Re: Varroa infecting Scotland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The recent discovery in St Andrews in eastern Scotland, and the Irish > find, are in resident colonies. The infestations are already between two > and four years old. Destruction is useless as it is pretty well certain > that the mites will have spread. I would agree that it would be pointless to destroy the colony at St Andrews as I would expect that much of Southern and Eastern Scotland is already infected. I can't comment on the Irish situation as I am not familiar with the distribution of bees or the geography of Ireland. > In Scandinavia offshore islands became infested and it could be > demonstrated that no bee movements were taking place. It is believed > that dead bees wedged in the front of tourist cars(or any vehicle > travelling substantial distances) which had come from infested areas > were one vector of spread, as the mite can live on the body until > dessicated, which can take a few days, then jump off to a local bee > which comes to investigate the disgorged contents of the dead bees > stomach. Another vector is that drones have, in some Danish research > (which I believe is disputed), been shown to travel great distances, up > to 40 miles in one case, to congregating areas. I don't think that bees travelling on the front of cars is a very serious threat. We have had fish lorries coming from France to Ullapool and lochinver for years and have not had any varroa infestations. I think there is probably more chance of winning the lottery than getting varroa from that source! I don't believe the 40 mile flying drones either. Are you trying to tell me that a drone from Inverness is going to fly 40 miles west to an area devoid of bees to mate with a queen with also must have done the same journey?? Even I would not go to that length for a bit of sex! Seriously, I would like to see more positive effort being made to keep some parts of our country varroa free especially the Islands. The only 100% way I know of killing varroa is to destroy the colony. To "Control" the varroa is only giving it more time to spread. -- Harry Scotland Knitwear Web pages: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/ Beekeeping Page: http://freespace.virgin.net/luichart.woollens/page8.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:27:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Varroa infecting Scotland In-Reply-To: <3593EFD6.5806@virgin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <3593EFD6.5806@virgin.net>, Harry Goudie writes > >I would agree that it would be pointless to destroy the colony at St >Andrews as I would expect that much of Southern and Eastern Scotland is >already infected. I can't comment on the Irish situation as I am not >familiar with the distribution of bees or the geography of Ireland. Dear Harry et al, There were several colonies involved at St. Andrews. They were in three seperate apiaries and the infestations ranged from over 300 mites dropped in a diagnostic test to only one. I have recieved this information from a VERY reliable source. Unfortunately it appears that something of a witch hunt developed, and several of the 'hawks' put severe pressure on the unfortunate beekeepers who found they had the mite, and as a result of beekeeper pressure, NOT from the authorities, the colonies have been destroyed. To me this is tragic, and at least one of the parties involved is an old time beekeeper who has loved his bees and been diligant and vigilant for years. This man deserves praise and support as he was sharp enough to discover what others had not, namely that varroa is in his area. He did not deserve to be hounded out of bees. >Seriously, I would like to see more positive effort being made to keep >some parts of our country varroa free especially the Islands. The only >100% way I know of killing varroa is to destroy the colony. To >"Control" the varroa is only giving it more time to spread. My point was mainly that it is HIGHLY unlikely that you will find this infestation first year. By the time you find it it already HAS spread. I outlined the only circumstances under which, in my opinion, destruction could be a viable option in the previous posting. Under all other circumstances it is TOO LATE once you find it, and destruction will only cause pain and anguish to the vigilant beekeeper. It could even be an incentive to some not to declare either hive ownership, or worse, conceal the fact they have varroa, and that really will cause you trouble. >I don't think that bees travelling on the front of cars is a very >serious threat. We have had fish lorries coming from France to >Ullapool and lochinver for years and have not had any varroa >infestations. I think there is probably more chance of winning the >lottery than getting varroa from that source! I agree that it is probably not a primary vector of spread, but it seems plausible enough to me to have possibly occurred occasionally. It is not my research, and was reported to me during a visit by some Scandinavian beekeepers recently. They did quote me a source for it but I'm afraid I cannot recall exactly what it was. > I don't believe the 40 >mile flying drones either. Are you trying to tell me that a drone from >Inverness is going to fly 40 miles west to an area devoid of bees to >mate with a queen with also must have done the same journey?? This was, I understand, done on Jutland, with a very similar climate to us here. Drones were being marked at remote locations and trapping done in congregating areas. A few were caught carrying marker discs applied some 60 Km away. I cannot vouch for this research and I believe it is disputed in Denmark. However, I have heard in the past, again anecdotally, of problems encountered with isolated mating sites on the Isle of Man. Drones were coming in from the UK mainland and spoiling the whole effort. Whilst I do not know the actual source of this story, the name of Eva Crane is frequently quoted in connection with it, and if true, she is certainly a credible reporter. > Even I >would not go to that length for a bit of sex! Nor I, Harry. But there are many sad cases who for whatever reason travel from all over to Thailand or Philippines etc., for just that purpose. As for drones and varroa, it only takes one infested carrier and a new seat of infestation can start up. Just one point to illustrate how vulnerable we ALL are here in Scotland. Migratory beekeeping is common. Beekeepers travel large distances to get to their favourite bits of heather, and heather moors are notorious all over Europe as places where a high level of drifting takes place and thus varroa is spread reasonably quickly. Overlap of beekeepers is common, and in its most extreme form in Scotland leaves you under threat NOW. A beekeeper from Fife, with some of his hives within 10 miles of St. Andrews, places hives up the A9 for the heather at Carrbridge, Slochd, and Tomatin. I know him. I buy his honey. I will not name him because I do not want him hounded out of business. In that area he overlaps quite significantly with a professional enterprise from the north, who I know to have hives within 10 miles of Lochluichart. The infestation in St. Andrews is probably 3 years old. Given the annual rate of spread of varroa mites, whilst admittedly unlikely, it is possible that it could pop up in your area next. Start watching for them now, and if you find them report it immediately and get on with treating them. Do not destroy them, because that is a knee-jerk reaction with little or no chance of ridding the area of varroa. It will not be the end of the world if you or I get it in our bees, and almost every respondent on this list will already be living with it, the majority of them quietly and successfully after the first wave. Sure, it is an unwelcome and serious pest, but its arrival is inevitable and it CAN be lived with. Murray -- Murray McGregor murray@denrosa.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:59:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Varroa infecting Scotland Comments: To: luichart.woollens@virgin.net In-Reply-To: <3593EFD6.5806@virgin.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:00 PM 6/26/98 +0100, you wrote: >Seriously, I would like to see more positive effort being made to keep >some parts of our country varroa free especially the Islands. The only >100% way I know of killing varroa is to destroy the colony. To >"Control" the varroa is only giving it more time to spread. The regulatory mentality is the same the world over. You are 1st given a choice, destroy the colonies and move your bees, or maybe don't kill the colonies and don't move the bees. The 2nd degree or level of regulation is to allow movement with approved treatment and testing after the 1st does not stop the spread. If you don't move your bees and many don't then its a great plan. Does it slow down the spread of Varroa, I don't think it makes even a season's difference at least here in the US it didn't. Could a bee or drone bee or a swarm of bees travel 40 miles or more over water or even barren land? I know bees will work and make gains at 7 miles so that's 14 straight line and I suspect that bees do get caught up in winds as other insects do and could travel 40 miles or more. I don't know what the record is but would not want to say it does not happen or could not happen. I do believe that most long distance spread of new pests is man associated and there are many records of this at any port, airport or regulated boarder crossings. BTW, any of these that are large and international are good places to find new insects and new flowers. By man associated I mean hitch hiking on goods in transit. Once a pest becomes established in one or more hives the drifting between hives and apiaries by the drones and workers speeds up the process of making all bee hives equal in their pests, predators, and disease. Good Luck! ttul, the OLd Drone World Wide Bee News http://beenet.com/bnews.htm And its FREE! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:52:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Neighbor's Complaints Comments: cc: bioquest@silcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John L. Garland wrote: >I am brand new to this format but due to recent activities... there is >probably no better place to ask, so here goes. Two days ago I received a >registered letter from a lawyer claiming to represent a nearby neighbor. The >neighbors case is that my bees are causing her "loss of enjoyment" of her >property. The details of this are many and I would be willing to share them >with those of you who are interested. However, my question is what has >historically been done with beekeepers and laws concerning neighbors claims >as listed previously. Any advice here would be greatly appreciated. ********** That problem surfaces all too often. An esteemed U.C. Berkeley entomologist, Richard L. Doutt (also an attorney) wrote a comprehensive review of that topic back in 1959, as follows: "The case of the trespassing bees." Bulletin of the ENTOMOLOGICAL SOCIETY OF AMERICA. 5(3): 93-97. Prof. Doutt dealt with legal cases all the way from the 17th century to the 1950s (when he wrote the paper). You might find some useful information in that paper. Also, a more recent publication might cite that contribution, permitting you to obtain an update on the problem. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 *********************************************************************** * "To cling rigidly to familiar ideas is in essence the same as * * blocking the mind from engaging in creative free play." * * * * David Bohm and F. David Peat 1987 * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:26:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Willy Organization: The Village Inn of East Burke Subject: Re: Upper Entrance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excerpts from BEE-L wrote: > > From: GImasterBK > To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU > George Imirie George: I agree with everything you say. I have 36 colonys and use the hole method for better accessability for the forigers. Because of skunk problems I am thinking of removing the bottom entrance restrictor completely and covering with hardware cloth for ventilation and requiring all to leave above. Maybe a false 3/4" spacing from 2nd deep to 3rd with a 3/8"slot cut out to resemble the bottom board would work. I make all my own equipment and only use deeps. These skunks are smart. Nail boards dont work and the have a heart trap i placed in front of one troubled hive acts only as a ladder for the skunk to gain better reach. I'm afraid its going to be a trap and a 22 for this fellow. George Willy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:53:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andy Nachbaur Subject: Re: Varroa treatment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:37 PM 6/25/98 -0600, you wrote: >After your last post on bee-l, I just have to ask you, do you treat >your hives with Apistan for Varroa mites (after the comments you >made about the pesticide merry-go-round and the "dustys" I wonder), >or do you use some alternative treatment. Also, do you make your >living as a beekeeper, or is it a hobby for you now so you can >afford to lose bees if they have one problem or another. I, of >course, am a hobbyist, Howdy Aggie, and Bee Friends, I am in a forced retirement from the bees. I never had a real job other then the bees if you don't count the $.50 a hour I got for herding Ducks for the neighbors as a kid. Actually I spent most of the time cleaning up after them. I was a Duck Pooper Scooper. I never treated for mites of any kind. The levels of Varroa mite in my hives was less then in my neighbors who treated his a few months after he treated. We were keeping bees in the same area about a mile apart at the nearest. Yes I lost a lot of bees and if I did not rebuild the hives as the queens failed or the hives died here in Central California they all would die within 3 years if not sooner and that was years before any mites had been found in the US. At the last it would take only one season, so things were getting bad. Today most of the commercial beekeepers here treat with the strips and are continually re queening and rebuilding hives as they had to do before mites. >and I would hate to think I had to make a >living from beekeeping with all the problems and unknowns these days, >and one reason I'm willing to do it is that I want to learn how to >solve the problems or how to live with them and what they actually do >but I don't have so much invested that I can't afford to lose ALL my >bees and still start all over again from nothing. I suspect that if you do nothing in your area your bees will die in time. But I also suspect that if you keep young queens by making nucs and divides you will not lose them all. I would treat if everyone else is treating in your area, but I would try some of the alternatives such as MO. No area of the world that has honeybees introduced to it if it has suitable bee pasture has ever reported then all disappearing for long. Most of the reports seen today in the US such as 90% of the feral bees dead, or 1/2 the 4.5 million hives in the US are dead are just false or based on BS, Bad Science, or out of context or to hype some other activity such as selling you something you may not want or need to treat your bees with. Even in limited areas such as an Island miles from the mainland attempts to remove all bees by any method may look successful in reducing the total numbers but natural restocking will take place the first good bee year. >I've seen varroa climbing around on the comb and quite a lot of bees >with thread-like crippled wings and I suspect it because of a Varroa >infestation. Do you have a recommendation besides Apistan? They'll >probably die, I'm afraid, because they are probably very susceptible to >the mites. If you have any advice you're willing to share, I'd really >appreciate it. Thanks, We seldom see this much damage here in California even when the hives are dyeing and it is said to be from Varroa? I would without looking suspect a hive in that conditions has already had a dramatic loss of population and would be very hard to bring back with any kind of treatment. Why not try a few lines of mineral oil on a paper towel over the brood combs and see what happens. As the bees tear up the paper they spread the oil around and it is said to kill the mites. You can use this anytime as there is little chance it will get in the honey and if it did it would not be a big deal. But like I said I never have treated with anything other then TM for EFB. Good Luck, ttul, Andy- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 13:56:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Article on bees on NPR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Today while doing shop work and listening to the radio on NPR weekend edition was an article on the pesticide problems and mites facing a Colorado beekeeper. Being the weekend these programs usually get played twice and you may be able to catch it on your NPR station NPR= national public radio stations are usually on the low end of the dial. Same story- piles of dead bees at the hive foragers sprayed or dusted- metion made of Penncap and Imodin or something that sounds like the name Imodin I am not too heavy on pesticides other than flea stuff for the dogs and apistan. Tom in CT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:00:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: Ants in and on hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit No manner of leaves from mint to tansy has worked for me regarding ants between the covers. What has worked is using a flat plywood cover and leaving the telescope and inner cover off until late fall. No place for the ants to hide that way Tom in CT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:51:05 -0400 Reply-To: beekeepr@bellsouth.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Humphrey Subject: Bee Pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The request for the pictures of the bees in the building was so great that I put them on the web. they can bee seen at http://www.sugarplum.net/bees.htm Frank Humphrey beekeepr@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Re: Pierco Update In-Reply-To: <980624.082432.EDT.SYSAM@cnsibm.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I like their ease of use and preparation, but the big drawback I see is they seem to make the slightest touch reverberate down the comb. One little slip on a side and the whole comb is buzzing as opposed to wood where only a few on the dropped side seem to care. *************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, Scranton, PA | reaction is the alternative. (717) 344-1969 | dave@scranton.com | -Daniel De Leon *************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:59:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dave D. Cawley" Subject: Puzzling Split MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In early May I made a split out of a bursting hive of Starlines. I took a number of frames of brood of all ages and most of the adhering bees. I also gave them two deeps of varying degrees of drawn comb including four full deep frames of capped honey. Two weeks later I saw no queen cells. So I swapped some undrawn frames out with some frames with swarm cells from the Starlines (who comtinued to try to swarm). They have almost a whole deeps of frames piled high with pollen and honey, some frames are half pollen! But there are only a few eggs laid and there are new swarm cells on the bottoms of the frames that are ready to be capped. There are also 4 full frames that are completely UNDRAWN. I'm confused as to why they are bringing in so much pollen when there's almost no brood and they don't seem concerned about drawing the other comb, but want to swarm...I thought splits were supposed to be easy. *shrug* *************************************************************** Dave D. Cawley | Where a social revolution is pending and, The Internet Cafe | for whatever reason, is not accomplished, Scranton, PA | reaction is the alternative. (717) 344-1969 | dave@scranton.com | -Daniel De Leon *************************************************************** URL => http://www.scranton.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ben Pollard Subject: Denver Post Article and still feeding. In-Reply-To: <199806270347.UAA21530@kinsey.fia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Denver Post had an interesting article on bees last Sunday, I thought it might be of interest to those on the list. It can be found at the link below. http://www.denverpost.com/life/nat0621.htm On the local front, I'm still feeding my two hives 1.5 to 2 gallons of sugar water a week. Our weather is pathetic, no rain for over 2 months, we've had 13 days straight of 100+ temperatures and tied our all time high today of 108, 107 yesterday, and possible 109 tomorrow. Did I pick a bad year to start beekeeping? Lots of feeding and don't expect any honey. Ben Pollard Classic Fermentations, Amarillo, TX Home of Ben's Bees, Brew, and Bulbs. classicferm@fia.net http://home.fia.net/~classicferm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:50:01 -0600 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pierco vs Permadent In-Reply-To: <199806250459.AAA17451@mail1.auracom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > What I found was that the bees just seemed to detest working the pierco, > although they were waxed, and the boxes were baited with a centre and two > outside combs (I had no more drawn comb available, I believe last year I > had five per box -- another difference). I had LOTS of drone comb > bridging the combs, and I even had complete skinny combs built in between > two pierco frames in places where the frames were slightly apart ( and I > was using ten frame boxes). It is truly odd how the results vary from area to area and person to person. I was out today again and looked in probably 100 supers. I don't recall seeing *any* burr or brace comb on Pierco frames. And we have variously jammed them into 10 frame boxes and scattered them into 8 frame spaced boxes -- and yet they are all being drawn nicely. So far. Granted, half of the new frames were still untouched, but that was in supers the bees are not yet working much. Wherever they were working a box, I could see whitening on the bases of the black Pierco foundation. Maybe the fact that the frames were only made and waxed a coupla weeks ago makes the difference. Or maybe black _is_ better. Allen PS: When I titled this thread, I wasn't meaning to slight Permadent. I wa just delighted with the Pierco. Permadent *is* great stuff. 1000X better than wax. And I may well go back to it again. We'll see. -- Buy, sell, trade, get a job, hire help, announce a meeting, advertise a business or publication... For free *beekeeping related* classified ads, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BeeAds/ often. These ads work fast! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:48:24 -0700 Reply-To: ttownsen@telusplanet.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Townsend Organization: TPLR Honey Farms Subject: Re: Pierco Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > However I do have some criticism. Now that he frames are drawn I find > that when I pull the Piercos that they will bend and twist as I rotate > them/flip them over to look at the other side. Not enough to cause > damage or break the comb, but when they are torqued they don't have the > rigidity of a wooden frame. Aaron; Good post. Read your note and thought a reply was required, the Pierco are flexable, but in a good way, because they flex they don't break. The flexing causes no damge to the comb or brood in the comb. It is just something that takes a little getting used to, definetly different than wood. Best regards; Tim Townsend TPLR HONEY FARMS / PIERCO CANADA