From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Sep 17 12:52:08 1999 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27254 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11062 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909171652.MAA11062@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:52:02 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG9903B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 121881 Lines: 2669 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:52:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rimantas Zujus Subject: Bees awoke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Beefriends Yesterday we got a gap of warm air. It was the very first suitable day this year for the bees to go out. The day was sunny and temperature reached 11C (52F). Bees had some 3 hours in the midday to meet a coming spring flying around their hives. I'm happy, all my colonies wintered successfully and Varroa mites made me no harm this year. Today we have a usual day for the season: 3C (37F), rainy. But I hope, my ladies got a good pulse for raising new brood. Rimantas Zujus Kaunas LITHUANIA e-mail : zujus@isag.lei.lt ICQ# : 4201422 http://www.lei.lt http://gytis.lei.lt/ 55 N, 24 E ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:34:54 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Honey prices down, why? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am basically in agreement with Martin Braunstein's analysis of the world/US honey situation. Just an interesting comment: I have been reading C.C.Miller's book, 'Fifty Years Among the Bees", and noted that he reports honey prices in 1865 at $0.35/pound. One hundred thirty four years later the producer price has not yet doubled! (OK, it was more than doubled a couple years ago, but settled back again.) Honey is even a much better deal than gasoline (which now runs about $0.87/gallon in Michigan). Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 08:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Wilkerson Subject: TBh Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Wrote: I noticed you said your side angles were 15 degrees. Do you have any problems with side comb attachment? Attatchment is not a real problem but will happen on a semiregular basis. What this means is that yes they will build small amounts of attatchment comb to the sides given the write situations. ie. The hive is crowded and they are looking for a place to store brood and honey. This is solved by staying ahead and keeping good volume in the hive. Even if some attatchment does exist it is manageable. Simply run the hive tool along the inside edge of the comb and it will let go. Attatchement occurs in the brood area not the honey area as a rule of thumb. As I said in the last message the hardest part is keeping good volume in the hive by adding and removing combless top bars. Try to never place two empty bars next to each other else you will get 90 degree comb. 60 degrees (as in a Kenya hive) with 20 inch long top bars.30 bars 1 3/8 in. wide. I read the areas dealing with the Kenya hives as well but also found a web page dealing with hives a gentleman kept in New Mexico I believe. He gave an explination of hive voulume as it relates to geographic location. It was from this info that I designed my hive. In doing the design I also layed out standard sizes so I could use standard lumber yard 1 x 6, 1 x 8 and 1 x 12 with as little cutting as possible. The hives measure (from memory) 30 top bars deep (1 3/8 inch wide), 17.5 inches wide and 10.5 inches deep. If you keep L hives you should consider making the length of the top bars so they can be transfered to a standard bood box. I have the design on paper if you are interested, e mail me your address. Entrance in the middle of one side. Can't comment directly. The biggest problem I have is that they keep the honey above the brood and I have to starve them for space in the brood section and force them to move honey to the honey seciton. Right now I am in the middle of the citrus bloom here in central Florida. My hives look like this in composition. Enterance, 1 1/2 frame pollen and honey, Ten frames brood, Queen excluder, Honey frames. As you can see if my hive will hold 30 frames I only have space for 18 honey frames. I can manage this due to the shorter flow lengths in Florida. If you live in an area with long flows such as clover you are going to need a larger brood area and hence a larger box. I can think of pros and cons for having a central entrance but for the moment will stay with the end entrance. The queen excluder is movable as well. It is made from a piece of 1/4 inch plywood cut to fit the dimensions of the inside of the box. The center has been removed and 1/4 inch galvanized screen is stapled over the cutout. john ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:15:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: beeman Organization: Honey Ridge Apiaries Subject: no varroa? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, i have a hive that seems to never have any varroa, now don't get me wrong....i'm not complaining!!! i found the hive at my grandfathers house, he pasted away and 2 years later i noticed bees flying around it, i have had this hive for 3 years, i never have treated it for varroa, so far no problems (knock on wood!) i have seven other hives in the same location with this one, i have had varroa in the other hives and have treated accordingly, has anyone else had this happen to them? or know of anyone with the same thing? is there anyway of testing the bees to see if they are varroa resistant?? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:07:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Jannoni, Riccardo (TCDX)" Subject: Melissotheca MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID sal+HIe9fVQ1ipHcVj45jQ)" --Boundary (ID sal+HIe9fVQ1ipHcVj45jQ) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Please find attached herewith a file with the presentation of an interesting initiative organized by the EUROCHOCOLATE Group in Perugia (Central Italy). Best regards. Riccardo Jannoni-Sebastianini Apimondia Secretary-General Apimondia International Federation of Beekeepers' Associations Corso Vittorio Emanuele II, 101 I-00186 Rome Italy Tel./fax +39 066852286 E-mail apimondia@mclink.it <> --Boundary (ID sal+HIe9fVQ1ipHcVj45jQ) Content-type: text/plain; name=melissot.txt; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-disposition: attachment; filename="melissot.txt" To the Beekeepers Associations for the attention of: The President no. of page(s).: 1 (one) including this Perugia, 9th February 1999 We are the organizers of BREAKFAST, an event wholly dedicated to the products, the objects and habits of the morning that will take place in Perugia (Italy) from 18 to 23 March 1999. On this occasion many will be the events for the promotion of honey: tastings, exhibitions, meetings, demonstrations and so on. One of the projects we are working on is the setting up of a very big and well stocked MELISSOTHECA where the visitors of BREAKFAST will have the unique chance to taste for free the best honeys of the whole world. For this project we are here to ask you to collect a selection of the most representative honeys of your country (in a total quantity of about Kg. 8) and to send them to our Organization Office together with informative materials and brochures about the characteristics and producers. For further information please contact the following numbers: ( BREAKFAST (Perugia) - Mrs. Silvia Sarchioni Tel.+39 0755732670 - Fax +39 0755731100 ( APIMONDIA (Rome) - Mr.Riccardo Jannoni-Sebastianini Tel./Fax +39 066852286 - E-mail apimondia@mclink.it Hoping to establish a collaboration, we thank you in advance. Silvia Sarchioni (Coordinator Honey Project for BREAKFAST) --Boundary (ID sal+HIe9fVQ1ipHcVj45jQ)-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eric Bullard Subject: Re: no varroa? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Contact your agricultural extention agent. He/She will be very interested in looking at that hive. Mine has contacted all the known beekeepers to keep an eye out for hives with no varroa. They are looking for genetic answers. You may have a winner there, or.. you might have just been very lucky so far. Hi again, i have a hive that seems to never have any varroa, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: US Honey vs. Imports (was 'Honey prices down, why?') MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Braunstein said a number of things about honey importing that caused me to offer this response. Am I serious? You decide. I'll never tell. > We must figure out how Argentineans can make more > money on their honey and not depress prices in the U.S. > Depressed prices in the U.S. will depress prices in > Argentina and viceversa. Are we in agreement? Martin makes two assumptions: a) That "honey is honey" b) That "prices is prices" Both are misleading presumptions. One must be more specific, even in a non-technical "market overview". From my view, the situation could be best summarized as follows: 1) The price paid for foreign honey must get higher at each step in the chain from: a) Foreign producer b) Foreign broker c) Foreign exporter/broker d) US importer/broker e) US wholesaler f) US retailer g) and (at long last) the US consumer. Everyone in the chain wants to make a profit. Each is quite willing to make his profit at the expense of the other. There are few, if any rules to the game these days, (and "free trade" sounded like such a good idea to so many so recently) which means that some number of the above have hoisted (or soon will hoist) the Jolly Roger and turn pirate, in an attempt to become an international corporate honey robber- baron. (Not to be confused with "honey-robbing" among bee colonies.) 2) If we assume that the US consumer is not prepared to pay a premium for imported honey, you have a problem that is structural, rather than market related. Since there are a few extra steps in the chain between you and the US market, it seems obvious that I could sell my (US-produced) honey to man (d) or (e) in the list above, and get a better price than you could ever hope to get from man (b). Of course, all my costs are much higher than yours, and there are many regulations I am honor-bound to follow that you are not subject to, so I am not sure who really gets the higher profit in absolute dollars. > I am almost certain where our problem lies. Our honey > exporters (I.H.E.O) are telling us that we must sell our > honey cheaper so that it may be sold in the U.S. I believe > that your importers (NHPDA) are making all the money and > driving prices down with their greed. Greedy US brokers are the source of all evil? Yeah, right. In fact, they are not one bit more or less greedy than your own exporter/brokers. Yet, you somehow trust the word of your own broker, while distrusting the US brokers. It should be obvious to even the casual observer that the broker who buys directly from you has the most to gain from negotiating tactics that convince you to fear/hate/distrust his customer. He makes his money if he can "buy low" from you, and "sell high" to them. If you believe his stories, you do so at your own peril. Welcome to the wonderful world of NAFTA, which should stand for "Nothing Actually Fair Today, Anywhere". As a cross-check, why not call or e-mail a few US brokers and importers yourself? You may want to question the "facts" provided by the people who clearly have an interest in getting you to accept the lowest price possible! > Since the exporter/importer has such a large profit margin, Does he? Perhaps he feels "squeezed" by rising costs of things like shipping. Don't demonize the people that make your business possible! If you could not find anyone to buy and export the massive excess you willingly produce, you might soon be knee-deep in honey from Asuncion to Terra Del Fuego! As it is, what you say seems to indicate that Argentina's exporters may be "dumping" honey on the US, perhaps in a misguided attempt to capture "market share" when they have not first differentiated their product from the competition. Be advised that such tactics only work when: 1) One can survive the period of below-cost prices long enough to discourage the competition. 2) One has a brand name, or some other sort of unique identifier that can establish the "critical mass" to keep market share your market share once you get it. If the above conditions are not met, the "advantage" only lasts as long as the low prices, and the ultimate result is failure. Your comments indicate that your honey exporters may soon suffer from a self-inflicted mortal wound. They may drive their own producers to reduce production and/or lose money on each pound of honey exported. US honey producers may also soon suffer from a self- inflicted wound. They have done nothing to make the US consumer aware of even the basic fact that US honey is at least under the watchful eye of the USDA and agricultural inspectors from hive to their mouth, while imported honey is not. How could anyone not see such an obvious strategy? (The whole "honey analog" tempest in a teapot would only enhance the story. Has no one even thought to call "20/20", "60 Minutes", or "Dateline" to make them aware of this serious risk to the US consumer?) Would anyone still like to buy a vowel, or can everyone solve the puzzle at this point? > he can continue to offer our honey from Argentina at lower > and lower prices. The obvious response to this on the part of US producers would be to start insisting that their bottlers put four little words on appropriate retail honey labels: "100% Pure USA Honey". Producers of US honey have a significant advantage in the US, given the concerns about food quality, pesticide risks, and sub-standard labor practices associated with imported foods and other products. While the risks may be imaginary in many cases, exploiting such concerns are a valid marketing tool that could be used to promote US honey, and compete with "imports". The result? Imported honey or honey that was a blend would likely not be labeled as to origin, but certainly not use the term "100% Pure USA Honey". One must presume that beekeepers would not be so bold as to lobby for yet another law to require such labels, but no one can prevent a bottler from seeing the advantages of not becoming more dependent upon imported sources, and leveraging his ability to use only US honey in order to increase his own market penetration among increasingly "food-scare frightened" US consumers. In the event that a bottler does not wish to endorse his own county's product over foreign imports, that will clearly demonstrate their loyalty to their countrymen. They should be considered "foreign honey importers", not worthy of being sold even a single drum of US honey. In the event that none of the existing bottlers wish to endorse US honey, please recall that NAFTA or not, there is no law that forces anyone to sell anything to anyone, and one can demand any condition (no matter how unreasonable) in a contract, as long as the terms break no laws. Bottling plants are cheap to capitalize, and a co-op could be formed in a matter of weeks with sufficient total production to run the plant 24 x 7 x 365. Consumer-awareness campaigns could be created to remind the consumer that buying US honey insures that friendly, gentle US bees have jobs and can be around to combat the scary "killer bees" that uhhh... wait a sec, didn't they come from somewhere in South America? Brazil? Argentina? OH NO!!! Don't buy that honey made by those South American killer bees!! While the above may seem silly and far-fetched, one need look no further than the "Got Milk?" ad campaign to see what the USDA can do when they are motivated. What do the dairy farmers have that beekeepers don't? Perhaps it is "common sense". Perhaps it is "unity". Perhaps it is a sense of the power of unity. Of course, those who import foreign honey would be free to attempt to promote this honey as superior to US honey. One need look no further than Juan Valdez and his donkey (the icons of "Colombian Coffee") to see that such a thing is not only possible, but can be effective. I might suggest that beekeepers need to band together with the dairy farmers, and join their very effective lobbying efforts, as well as learn something about packaging, marketing, and infrastructure. It seems a natural partnership, since we could name the unified venture "Milk and Honey". (There are of course, many song lyrics that use the phrase "the land of milk and honey", which make radio ads easy.) > Even to the point that Argentina honey has replaced U.S. > honey. Hold on, your e-mail started out by complaining about low prices paid to you. Are you going to INCREASE production and lower your prices FURTHER when you don't like the prices paid now? If so, the prices you are paid must not be as bad as you say. If prices are very bad, how might you expand your production? With lottery winnings? There is a name for people who sell at a price lower than their cost of production, packaging, and shipping. Here in the US, they are called "Hobbyist Beekeepers". > U.S. producers must sell their honey so they will > match Argentina prices. No, US producers need only match the DELIVERED price of your honey, FOB somewhere in the US. They could try a little marketing, and justify a higher price for US honey, (or at least make people aware of the actual source of the various retail brands of honey) just as soon as they develop the intestinal fortitude to realize that US honey producers must act in their own best interest, and start promoting their US-produced product, rather than tolerate the promotion of "honey" in general. Every dollar now spent to promote "honey" as a generic item works against them, since this money does nothing to differentiate Pure US honey from blends that contain foreign honey of unknown and untraceable origin. >The market continues to drop and beekeepers suffer. No one forces anyone to sell their honey to a broker. Co-ops are a well-tested mechanism, one that works well for many crops. Don't like your broker? Become one yourself! > If large US beekeepers decide to get together and import > Argentina honey, we may avoid our traditional exporters > and your honey buyers (NHPDA) will lose power because they > will not find any honey. In other words, large Argentine > beekeepers get more money for their honey because they sell > directly to US honey producers. This way neither Burleson > nor Gamber nor anyone will be able to put more pressure on > you because the market will be "honeyless". Why would a producer become an importer? Would that be cheaper than expanding one's own production? What about the long-term impact? Is encouraging imports in the best interest of any US producer? If large US beekeepers "got together", would they agree to buy your honey, or is it more likely that they would work together to compete with you? One possible high-risk scenario would be to get all the producers together and form an international cartel of producers, just as the oil barons did. The problem here is getting 100% participation, and insuring that no one "defected", as happened with the oil cartel. (Hold on, wasn't it Argentina that "defected" from the oil cartel?) > One more thought. China will be back in the market soon. So, let me see if I have this right - the US producer's main competition consists of: a) The perceived home of the "Killer Bees" b) The home of the "Killers of Teinamein Square" I would love to create the US promotional campaign to compete with those two. My mind spins with the possibilities! I'd even do it for free, if someone asked me nicely. James Fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:54:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Martin Braunstein's comments about the poor timing of Apimondia beg the reply that no time is convenient for all beekeepers. About the best timed bee meetings I know of are the ones scheduled in January - a lull for upstate New York beekeepers, but I am sure it's bad timing for others. Apimondia is scheduled for fall harvest/winter preparation for many parts of the northern climates, but if it's a priority, beekeepers will arrange their schedules accordingly. It is interesting to me that Martin uses the scheduling conflict as an introduction to the discussion of "high quality but low price Argentina honey exports", which then became a more generalized discussion of world honey prices. Personally I have never heard of the I.H.E.O (International Honey Exporters' Organization), but I find it hard to cast them in the role as bad guys. As was pointed out on sci.agriculture.beekeeping , for better or worse we now compete in a global economy. Any group or individual marketing any commodity attempts to exploit world markets in whatever manner possible to maximize the return on their efforts. That's how capitalism works. > ... it is not surprising how a few small organizations are able to > reduce so dramatically the prices being paid to all producers. The granularity is not fine enough here. It doesn't take a "few small organizations" to reduce prices dramatically, it takes sufficient small producers to sell enough product to meet the demands of the few small organizations, period. This is like lawyer bashing - it's a "given" that nearly everyone hates lawyers. But the real problem with lawyers is they always have clients! Anyone can hate "small organizations", but the real problem with "small organizations" is there are plenty of small producers willing to sell to small organizations for small prices. James Fischer wrote: > There is a name for people who sell at a price lower than their cost > of production, packaging, and shipping. Here in the US, they are > called "Hobbyist Beekeepers". Well, you can take your pot shots at whoever you choose, but frankly I'm getting pretty fed up with open season on "Hobbyist Beekeepers". As a sideline producer it seems every time I try to get a new account I discover that I must accept a lower price than I ask based on the fact that the potential customer can get a better price from another "commercial" producer. The hobbiests aren't my competition and it seems to me the commercial guys are cuttin' their own and each others' throats. There's always one guy willing to undercut the next guy. Martin blames the small organizations, James blames the hobbiest. It's neither! The true source of the deflated price problem is any and all producers willing to accept a deflated price for their product. If a hobby beekeepers accepts a low price for honey they are guilty of keeping prices depressed. If a commercial beekeeper accepts a low price for honey they are guilty of keeping prices depressed. There are commercial and hobby beekeepers alike willing to accept deflated prices for honey WORLDWIDE! Martin uses the statistics: > The U.S. consumes approximately 350 million pounds, ... produces > approximately 190 million pounds, ... (leaving) a 160 million pound > deficit. to make a point to import more honey from Argentina and less honey from China. The flaw in these figures is the assumption that packers are going to buy all of the 350 million pounds produced domestically to meet domestic needs. The last time I looked to wholesale my honey at a decent price I was quoted an insulting pittance based on foreign producers willing to accept a deflated price. My options were to accept a deflated price or withold my crop from the marketplace until prices firm up or foreign producers demanded more for their crop or hell freezes over! I'm doubly fortunate in this situation, first because honey keeps virtually forever and second, I am able to meet my obligations without having to accept a deflated price for my honey. Those who rely on their honey crop to pay their bills, pay their help, FEED THEIR FAMILY(!) are forced to accept the deflated price based on a WORLD market, where the price is set at the point of production with the lowest costs where a deflated price is actually good pay! > ... ask why if China's honey crop in 1998 was disastrous (70% down) > why the price of honey is so low. David Tharle replied: > The majority of your producers must be happy with the prices they > receive or they would organize and bypass the exporters/importers. This is close to the crux of the matter. It would be a bull's eye statement if it read, "there are sufficient producers happy, or at least willing, to accept the price they receive". > We must figure out how Argentineans can make more money on their honey > and not depress prices in the U.S. Well, if Argentina and the US were the only producers in the WORLD this might work. Until ALL the producers are able to hold out until they get a decent price there is no winning at the packers' game. What I consider a decent price is a third world wet dream! If I can't get $1/lb (US wholesale) I won't sell. I give my word on that to all the commercial guys who think the hobbiest are the cause of the problem and to all the hobbiests who are competing with the commercial guys and to all the foreign producers who will accept far less, and all the "other world" producers willing to accept far, far less. $1/lb (US wholesale), $2/lb (US retail) or I don't sell. Know what? I've got a lot of honey stockpiled. The only way I'm gonna sell it is to cultivate a market of customers who realize that my honey is worth MY decent price. While I'm waiting for the rest of the world to agree on MY decent price there are and always will be a lot of packers and/or small organizations making a lot of money. > If large US beekeepers decide to get together and import Argentina > honey, we may avoid our traditional exporters and your honey buyers > (NHPDA) will lose power because they will not find any honey. Why won't NHPDA simply look to other shores? I just don't follow this. Large US producers not able to market their crop due to cheaper foreign imports are going corner the Argentine market forcing NHPDA to buy the large US stockpiles? These are the same producers singing the working capital blues under current operating practices? I guess they're going to get the investment capital from the government honey loan program!? Hmmmm - ploys to corner the market to drive up prices ... hmmm. We have names for people who do that here, well actually, we give them numbers and uniforms and room and board! Aaron Morris - think $2/lb is a decent price, wishing $10! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:30:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Gilbert Subject: Re: Apidea Queen Mating nucs Comments: cc: cssl@iol.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Tom Re: use of Apidea nucs. I have used them a few times and there a few problems: 1. the queen excluder that stops the lady getting into the fondant is a bit doggy so watch out. Also they sometimes build comb in this back chamber. 2. the number of bees, a cup full is not much! So they can have trouble maintaining the temperature. 3. they are supposed to push the queen out quicker to mate but I have had failures if the weather a bit off. Also I have read that the queens from them do not mate so well, and so do not store so much sperm - this means they need requeening sooner. Just a few thoughts from a beginner in the Midlands of England where the wet weather sometimes make queen rearing nigh on impossible and in a small polystyrene box even more doggy. Regards Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:16:57 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: What I > consider a decent price is a third world wet dream! If I can't get > $1/lb (US wholesale) I won't sell. . $1/lb (US wholesale), > $2/lb (US retail) or I don't sell. Know what? I've got a lot of honey > stockpiled. The only way I'm gonna sell it is to cultivate a market of > customers who realize that my honey is worth MY decent price. > One must belive in his product. Put real quality out in front and develope a market for your product.I have no compatition for I am the compatition.I take my bees high in the Olympic Moumtains of Washington State US. Its a very clean envoirnment with absents of polution and the people pay for it at the rate of $5 US per pound jar. I don't do much, 6,000 pounds , last year. I will go to 300 hives this year to meet my demand.Don't give your honey to anyone.I don't do middle men , its my work and my money.Beekeepers get pushed around too much. I don't care where you are or what language you speak.We are layed back and Love nature. Thats wonderful , but it also the problem.We don't kick butt and take names.A little of that will change over time. We have problems and they have to be faced with some action after some good thought. Everyone has choices. Make good ones. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:30:57 -0400 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > names for people who do that here, well actually, we give them numbers > and uniforms and room and board! > > Aaron Morris - think $2/lb is a decent price, wishing $10! Aaron: Thanks for a great reply to M Braunstein's note re world honey prices. I especially liked your defense of hobbiests. Two days ago I saw a hobby beekeeper displaying his last season honey for sale at the end of the counter in his small rural restaurant. He told me he easily sells all his product to his "summer visitor" customers. The 350 g bottle was priced at $4.00 (Canadian) .. Retail price for this size in local supermarkets is at least a dollar less at present. EDW ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Fw: Shades Of This Years Outlook ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I believe the press publishes such as this so that we Texans think the >government is helping the poor farmer (or beekeeper) when in reality >it's a political move. I'm curious to see where that $1,400,000 goes. >In addition to the bees, we have a dairy farm so we are familiar with >these kinds of programs. About all it seems to amount to is the ability >for some politician to claim he or she helped the farmer which usually >gets a few votes. Then sometimes they give the producer a "token" >payment. > >Of course, here in central Texas we've had one of the worst droughts on >record. I harvested NO honey from 36 hives simply because there was >nothing for the bees to harvest. There were several wild hives nearby >that have died out (could have been from mites or pesticides though). I >lost at least 10 of my hives. When I ordered replacement packages, I >was told there were lots of folks that lost bees and they would be sold >out shortly. So...A&M may be right. > >I'd be interested to see what other Texas beekeepers have to say on this >one. I also will probably make my way to the local FSA office with my >hand out for whatever "token" they make available for us...as I vote for >that caring politician. Well, maybe not. > >But this year WILL be better... >Kathy Tate >Stephenville, TX ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:06:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Nicholson Subject: Re: Honey prices down, why? In-Reply-To: <199903062341.PAA15977@alto1.altonet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20:50 -0600 3/6/99, Martin Braunstein wrote: >I am almost certain where our problem lies. Our honey exporters (I.H.E.O) >are telling us that we must sell our honey cheaper so that it may be sold in >the U.S. I believe that your importers (NHPDA) are making all the money and >driving prices down with their greed. > >Since the exporter/importer has such a large profit margin, he can continue >to offer our honey from Argentina at lower and lower prices. Even to the >point that >Argentina honey has replaced U.S. honey. U.S. producers must sell their >honey so >they will match Argentina prices. The market continues to drop and >beekeepers suffer. > >What can we do? I think that I have the answer. Argentina producers can >demand more for their honey. Why not 85 cents per pound. Add freight, >duties, and commissions and the prices will be around $1 in the U.S. We can >all be happy with $0.85-$1.00 per pound for honey. The main problem as I see it is that foreign honey producers in Argentina and China especially have much lower labor costs. Honey production is labor intensive, and only so much can be done to automate it. In China most of the population lives on rural farms. Many family's houses are little brick shacks the size of the sport utility vehicles driven by U.S. soccer mom's. The cost of honey production is very low. Even with the low prices in the U.S., to the Chinese peasant honey producer this is a lot of money. China with it's large population has a large potential market for honey, but with the prices paid by the export market and low wages, no doubt this honey is priced out of reach for much of the local population. Thus, there is low local demand for Chinese honey. Chinese honey prices will go up when the Chinese standard of living inproves and wages rise. Wages in Argentina are also lower than those in the U.S., although not anywhere a low as those in China. Prices of merchandise and services in Buenos Aires are similar to those in the U.S., but Argentina has a proportionally much smaller middle class than in the U.S. Argentina is blessed with a nice climate for honey production and lots of arable land. This coupled with their lower wages enables lower cost production. So other than legislatively mandated quotas or tarriffs, honey from these countries will continue to be produced at lower prices until ther economies and the wages of local workers and the buying power of local consumers go up. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 21:51:24 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: no varroa? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you guys tried raising queens from these varroa free hives to see if the trait follows the daughter queens? That would be one of the first things I would do. beeman wrote: > Hi again, i have a hive that seems to never have any varroa, Eric Bullard wrote: > Hi again, i have a hive that seems to never have any varroa, -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:37:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: World Market of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi David and all, > I am not saying your topic is not worthy of discussion, but delegates are already >forced into making a numberof choices as what sessions they can attend. Delegates should bear in mind ALL aspects regarding our industry. Beekeeping economics, world trade of honey and the impact of Argentine exports are a hot topic. I was invited to give a lecture on this subject at the VI Iberolatinoamerican Beekeeping Congress which was held in Merida, Mexico on August 1998. There I met Dr. Gard Otis -one of the Canadian organizers to whom I proposed my presence in Apimondia. As you imagine, according to the interests of IHEO members, my perspective of world trade is very controversial. None of them want beekeepers to realize who and how fixes the price of honey. I am not sure but I presume Apimondia gets some kind of financial support from companies involved in the trade of honey. Therefore they have power to choose who will speak and who will not. Thus it is not surprising I was not in their list of candidates, and off course not after the meeting in Mexico. You can ask Dr. Medhat Nasr (Canada) and Dr. Shimanuki (USA) whether or not they liked my presentation. As soon as I came back from Mexico (end of August 1998) I got in touch with Dr. Mark Winston. Again he said the agenda was full. I was really surprised to hear that more than one year prior to the Congress, there was no room for a 30 minute speech. When should I have asked for permission....? Two years ago maybe. Don't you think it is imperative for NorthAmerican beekeepers to hear the message of Argentine beekeepers? If Apimondia organizers have set another priorities...well, they should have their reasons. It is up to us to find out what interests they represent. >Already asked Mr. Rumball's firm and other buyers that question. The answer >we get: Argentinian beekeepers had a bumper crop and are giving it away >again. When the Argentine product came on stream, prices which had already >been sliding in anticipation, dropped another $.05 US almost overnight. Like I said in a previous message, Mr. Rumball is the head of the IHEO (Int'l Honey Exporters Organization). His business is not to defend beekeepers and the price they get but to obtain the cheapest possible price for the honey he buys. What makes you think he and his company are a reliable source of information? Any buyer (no matter where he/she is located) will always try to pay the least possible money for whatever sort of goods he/she purchases. On the other hand, producers of any goods will try to sell at the maximun possible price. This antagonistic reality is inherent to all economic relationships where one party sells and the other buys. >You're right that eventually we have to match it, but how do your exporters >get so much cheap honey in the first place? The majority of your producers >must be happy with the prices they recieve or they would organize and bypass >the exporters/importers. Your conclusion is a bit superficial. Neither we are happy with the price we receive nor it is so easy to bypass importers/exporters. Argentina has doubled its production in ten years. Unfortunately, domestic consumption has remain very low, it only absorbs about 6,000 Tns every year and it represents less than 10% of total production. Therefore, the bigger the crop the larger our share of exports. Seven exporting firms concentrate over 90% of honey exports in Argentina. You can be sure all of them will be present in Apimondia. These companies are: ACA, HONEYMAX, CEASA, NEXCO, TIMES, CONAGRA and RADIX. Since domestic consumption is so low, our prices are determined by these seven guys (all members of IHEO). Although they are competitors among them, they do not compete when they have to depress the prices paid to beekeepers. This is what in Economics is called an OLIGOPSONY. It is true this honey crop will be very good in some parts of Argentina. However, it does not compensate the poor crop in China. What gives a lot of power to IHEO members is their monthly exchange of information. They monitor the inventories of honey and decide when and how much to buy. Why don't you ask Mr. Rumball to include you in his mailing list? I am pretty sure you'll be astonished to read the kind of info they share. I was very fortunate to read a few of their monthly reports and I know what I am talking about. I will just give you an example. During last January 1998 (more than one year ago) Argentina exported over 13,900 Tns of honey, then in February only 975 Tns. The volume exported in January represented over 20% of the total honey exported during 1998. The volume exported in Feb. 98 was next to nothing (1,40%). When beekeepers needed to sell their honey in Jan. 98, exporters didn't show any interest, consequently very little honey was exported a month later. Why? Because the volume that should have exported in two months was shipped out in just a single month (Jan. 98). When our honey floods the world markets in this way we all suffer. I am retyping into e-mail format part of the interview made by Bee Biz to the current secretary of IHEO. Then you will make your own conclusions concerning this group. Cordially yours, Martin Braunstein Queen Breeder & Exporter Criador de Reinas y Exportador Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar Phone (54+11)4446-8350 Fax (54+2322)487564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 07:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: BobCan@TDPI.Com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Subject: Feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if putting dry pollin subsitute "Bee-Pro" in a division board feed would cause any problems. I am using a 1 gallon bucket feeder sitting on the inner and a terra pad on the broad frames and was wondering if placing "Bee-Pro" in the Division board feeder, for deep supers DRY would cause any potential concerns. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:16:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Re: Interesting finding in colony! Comments: cc: tommozer@hotmail.com > I for one believe even queenright colonies often have a few laying workers, >one of which here put an egg in that queen cell found that developed to the >point found, then 'aborted', if you will... > Is it possible that the queen could have managed to get an >egg up into this cell WITHOUT herself having gone thru the excluder? > I have never bought the idea of a worker carrying an egg or larva from one >place to another (hive to hive, or one part of the hive to another)... tend to agree with your hypothesis, although have never observed it myself but recall reading a study on thelytoky (in bee science) which similarly described the aborted laying-worker q-cells...can't rule out the worker-transported egg theory, though, as can recall reading about it (in b.c.hivenotes, perhaps) being captured on video in an observation hive at simon fraser university's beelab, also a few years ago or so... maybee someone at apimondia in vancouver will present something on this? ________________________________________________________________ Get secure free e-mail that you don't need Web access to use from Juno, the world's second largest online service. Download your free software at http://www.juno.com/getit.b.html. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 05:57:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Simics Subject: Bee venom collection Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, A beginner bee venom collection training course will be held on Sept. 15, 1999 during the Apimondia '99. Please visit http://www.beevenom.com for more information. Sincerely, Michael Simics ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 09:55:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Yellow Jasmine Bloom: Poison, feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit February had an outstanding maple flow this year, and most hives look really nice. This is an illusion that fools many inexperienced beekeepers. I want to drum in the concept that bees are not self sustaining until about April 1, even in the south. In fact there is a dearth right now. And the strongest hives are the ones that will suffer first, because they are rearing a lot of brood. If their food supply is depleted, and they are living day to day on what little nectar is available, they can starve down in just three or four days of bad weather. Take the handhold on the back of the hive and heft it. If it feels light, feed. You are only safe, if it feels like it is anchored to the ground. Furthermore, yellow jasmine is starting to bloom about two weeks early. Yellow jasmine is poisonous to the brood. Most of the time there are other more attractive nectar sources and bees will ignore yellow jasmine. But if there is little else, they will work this flower and brood will die. I have never seen a hive killed by yellow jasmine, but I've seen some set back quite badly by loss of brood. By feeding thin syrup at this time, you will give the bees an alternative to yellow jasmine and reduce the poison damage. I've never seen jasmine damage in a hive that is being fed, or one that has a good nectar flow going on. I want to emphasize this again: NOW is the time to check, and likely feed, your bees in the southeast. Northern beekeepers have a little more time left. Bees consume very little honey through the winter here, but consume enormous amounts when they begin serious brood rearing. They can outrun their food supply very quickly. Hives that starve may survive, but the bees, in a desperate move may suck the body fluids from the brood, so that the adults may survive. A hive that has gone down this far, will take a LONG time to recover, probably until after the spring honey flow. Don't, don't assume that your bees that hung out the entrance during the maple flow are just fine now. CHECK! If you open them up, keep in mind that open cells of nectar/honey do not count a bit for reserves; only sealed honey counts, and a hive should still have a couple frames of sealed honey, or it better have a feeder on it. (We recently had a good doctor who claims that sugar is dangerous to the health of the bees. I don't agree, but as an alternative, you may give them some frames of honey you saved last fall. Feeding liquid honey is not a good idea.) I do save some honey in the frames (deep) for this time of year, but not enough to really feed the entire operation. When I see a hive that has no reserve feed, I put a frame of honey right next to the cluster. This gives them immediate feed that is always right where they need it. Then I also feed them some syrup to stimulate brood rearing. Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:04:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron and all, I am really delighted to have a serious debate on world honey trade. I am sure it will be quite beneficial for all of us to clarify some of the myths concerning this important topic. First of all, from some of the reply messages that I got, it is evident that Northamerican beekeepers take for granted the production cost of their honey is much larger than the one we have in Argentina. How are so sure about it? Are you willing to exchange true market information? Do you want to know which are our costs? The assumption that labor costs alone determine the cost and competitiveness of agricultural products (such as honey) is narrow and old, as old as when David Ricardo (British economist of the last century) tried to decrease the cost of salaries paid to their industrial labor force by importing cheap food from other countries. The more evident conclusion of this superficial approach would be: labor is cheaper in Argentina, therefore the production cost of honey is lower, therefore they compete unfairly with US honey. If you make the mistake of putting in the same basket all Southamerican economies, you are certainly wrong. When you compare Argentina to other Southamerican countries you come across many major differences regarding salaries for example. In Brazil you have plenty of agricultural workers that will work for about U$S 50 a month. In Argentina you will not find anyone to work bees for the less than U$S 3 (an hour). Fuel costs are over three times in Argentina than in the US, a gallon of gasoline here is U$S 3,60 (about a dollar in the US) and I can assure you the incidence of this single cost is enormous in migratory honey operations. Another interesting comparison is the cost of High Fructose Corn Syrup (Types 42 and 55). A pound of syrup is 21 cents here, in the US about 10 to 12 cents. Indeed labor costs in the US are more expensive. Between 1990 and 1993 I had the chance of working at three different bee companies (one in California and two in Georgia). How many of you (who seem to know so much about Argentine beekeeping) have come to work were and obtain reliable economic data to support your "assumptions"? My American born workmates (not Mexicans) were making a little bit more than the minimun wage. I recall back in 1993 the minimun wage was U$S 4.25 an hour, well these American workers were paid U$S 5,25 to U$S 5,50 an hour. And I am talking of skilled people with many years of experience in the beekeeping field. In woodenware we don't find much differences. A good pine super here is U$S 5.50, a full depth frame 35 cents, a pound of foundation U$S 2.80. Are you able to benchmark the respective incidence of each cost: labor, fuel and HFCS into the the total production cost of honey? I am pretty sure you'll be surprised when you find out that our production cost is not as low as you always thought. >It is interesting to me that Martin uses the scheduling conflict as an >introduction to the discussion of "high quality but low price Argentina >honey exports", which then became a more generalized discussion of >world honey prices. Aaron, you are a either a semiologist or a psycologist, aren't you? Or at least pretend to be one...I don't know. What's the matter about the logical structure of my message? You may be the owner/moderator of the list and l accept the fact as it is. But I do not understand what you aim to deduct of my communication to the list. >Personally I have never heard of the I.H.E.O (International Honey >Exporters' Organization), but I find it hard to cast them in the role as >bad guys. If you never heard of them you may be deaf or worse they don't want you to hear of them. Anyway, I feel like you are jumping to conclusions. You don't know them but you assume they are not bad guys, why?. I suggest you pay a look at "Bee Biz" interview to Mr. Arno Meier, then you'll decide whether they are good, bad or excellent. If you are not subscribed to "Bee Biz" I am sure Matt Allan will be glad to send you a copy of it. >The granularity is not fine enough here. It doesn't take a "few small >organizations" to reduce prices dramatically, it takes sufficient small >producers to sell enough product to meet the demands of the few small >organizations, period. Your "market philosophy" sounds great for an elementary book on Business Administration but your description of facts do not match real life. >Martin uses the statistics: >Those who rely on their honey crop to pay their bills, pay their help, >FEED THEIR FAMILY(!) are forced to accept the deflated price based on a >WORLD market, where the price is set at the point of production with the >lowest costs where a deflated price is actually good pay! Now that you are aware of some our costs, do you still think that a "deflated price" is a great price for Argentine beekeepers? This is not criticism but a demonstration that labor costs although different in both the US and Argentina final production costs are not different but compensated with other costs that are extremely cheaper in the US like fuel and HFCS. And if you don't mind I'll keep on boring you with my "statistics". Back in 1989 the US had 3,44 million colonies, now ten years later there aren't more than 2,60 million. About 850 thousand colonies are gone. What happened? Are you going to blame us for this? We didn't get the mites neither into the US nor in South America. At the same time (1989-1997), domestic consumption of honey in the US grew from 275 thousand pounds to 352 thousand pounds (a 28% increase). If you have less hives, then you have less production but if at the same time local demand goes up it is not surprising you need to import more honey. In 1990 US imports of honey were 75,000 pounds, in 1997 more than 160,000 pounds. Another serious problem that American beekeeping will face is the lack of young people engaged in the beekeeping industry. I am very sorry Aaron, but this generation gap is not the fault of Argentine beekeepers either. Regards, Martin Braunstein Queen Breeder & Exporter Criador de Reinas y Exportador Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar Phone (54+11)4446-8350 Fax (54+2322)487564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:54:09 -0700 Reply-To: allend@internode.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Organization: The Beekeepers Subject: Re: Yellow Jasmine Bloom: Poison, feeding In-Reply-To: <15190927604407@systronix.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > ... most hives look really nice. This is an illusion that fools many > inexperienced beekeepers.... In fact there is a dearth right now. And > the strongest hives are the ones that will suffer first, because they > are rearing a lot of brood. If their food supply is depleted, and they > are living day to day on what little nectar is available, they can > starve down in just three or four days of bad weather. I want to second this. Dave, like me, has obviously learned this the hard way. In my case, I learned it over and over :) I think Dave runs a lot of singles, and they are particularly vulnerable to starvation. A couple of days without a flow will do it if they are fully brooded up, wall to wall, because they simply have *no* place to store honey. Eight or ten frames of brood will displace the feed necessary to maintain the bees even over a short rainy spell. We run doubles here over winter and into the spring, and even then, we pour the feed to them all spring. If they don't need it, they won't take it. And usually if they don't need it there is something wrong with them. When we run singles, we put an excluder and a super on them (sometimes under them) the day they are made up, so they will have some place to keep honey. (You have probably already guessed from the above that we only make singles when the weather is settled and flow is on). Although the strong hives run out of feed first, the weak ones benefit from feed too, because sugar syrup is pure -- assuming you did not make the mistake of storing it in a container that had potential to add contaminants like iron -- and assuming you did not contaminate it in handling. Honey can be from many sources and, although *good* sealed honey is an ideal feed, not all hives can get to it, uncap it and liquefy it if it is granulated. Don't use Boardman feeders unless you have kept bees for at least 5 years. The feed needs to be inside the hive and close to the bees, and you don't need robbing if you are a beginner. Hives that could not otherwise feed themselves will come along nicely if fed. This is particularly true of splits that may have lost their flying bees during the splitting and moving, or hives that got a touch of spray. During the first days after either of these ocurances, all the bees may be needed to keep the brood warm, and they may not have a chance to forage much. Therefore, don't forget the pollen supplement. If you make it right, they will eat it any time of year. The secret? Use at least 50% sugar in each patty. And the more pollen in it, the faster they'll eat it. Feed, feed, feed, your bees, and they will in turn feed you. Allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:15:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Continuing with the "honey prices" thread, in response to the price paid for Argentine honey James Fischer wrote: > ... Welcome to the wonderful world of NAFTA ... This is not a NAFTA issue, it's a world market issue. The only part of Argentina I know of in the northern hemisphere is the Malvinas. > US honey producers may also soon suffer from a self inflicted wound. > They have done nothing to make the US consumer aware of even the > basic fact that US honey is at least under the watchful eye of the > USDA and agricultural inspectors from hive to their mouth, while > imported honey is not... This is closer to the point to address deflated domestic prices and may offer reasons why the US consumer should look for and be willing to pay higher prices for domestic honey. An even stronger argument is pollination - imported honey provides no benefit for domestic crops. However the domestic pollination arguement will be made to the same consumers buying Mexican tomatoes. But the real solution for domestic problems is heightening public awareness to buy locally. Unfortunately, > the four little words on retail honey labels: > "100% Pure USA Honey" ... only works if the consuming public gives a damn! The other day I was driving and saw the bumper sticker, "Buy U.S. Goods!". The guy was driving an Isuzu Trooper! Figured he was either clueless or a really funny guy! > ... Consumer-awareness campaigns could be created to remind the > consumer ... one need look no further than the "Got Milk?" True, but do you have any idea on the magnitude of difference in the budget between the Dairy Council vs the National Honey Board!!! The NHB can't even touch Dairy's check book! And US beekeepers everywhere scream at the prospect of increasing the assessment. We can't have it both ways. > What do the dairy farmers have that beekeepers don't? An organized voice? A flush Dairy Council? Lobbiests? $$$$,$$$,$$$.$$? > I might suggest that beekeepers need to band together with the dairy > farmers, Well, this is a good idea but I doubt the Dairy Council is going to shout the National Honey Board's message without the dollars to do so. > and join their very effective lobbying efforts, Dairy has a VERY effective lobby, Honey hasn't been able to get their act together. Surprisingly (to me), honey has NEVER had its political act together from the very beginning of modern beekeeping (the invention of Langstroth's hive), but that's another story. Dairy has BIG bucks and organization. Honey has small bucks and split factions who can't agree amongst themselve what they want, let alone lobbying their representation in Washington, DC! > It seems a natural partnership, "Milk and Honey". I LIKE IT!!! But who's gonna pay? There ain't no free. >> U.S. producers must sell their honey so they will >> match Argentina prices. >> >No, US producers need only match the DELIVERED >price of your honey, FOB somewhere in the US. No this is where both arguements are wrong. ALL producers have the option of accepting (or not) the price buyers offer. If a buyer offers too low a price the seller can say no (if they can afford to sit on their commodity). If enough sellers say no, buyers will have to entice them with a higher offer. Buyers can only buy cheap if sellers sell cheap. As long as buyers can find sellers willing to accept low prices, prices will stay low. This is not US vs Argentina or US vs China or packer vs producer, it's basic economics. As long as enough producers have enough honey and are willing to sell it cheaply enough to meet the packers' needs, prices will remain depressed. Who's the bad guy here, the buyer who offers a low price or the seller who accepts the low offer? And responding to Martin's latest post: > I am really delighted to have a serious debate on world honey trade. I too am enjoying this exchange. > ... it is evident that Northamerican beekeepers take for granted their > production costs (are) much larger than Argentina's. I make no such assumptions and readily admit I have no idea of production costs in Argentina. My assertion was that Argentina and the US are not the only game in town, there are many places where honey can be produced for less than what it costs me. Furthermore, my assertion was that if US and Agrentine beekeepers were to stand firm in their demands for a decent price for honey, the commodity brokers would meet their needs by seeking out the producers willing to accept the lowest offer. I am making no assualt on Argentina or China or the domestic producer who sells low. I am observing that commodity brokers are able to fill their orders in spite of the fact that they pay a pittance for what they buy. Who's the bad guy, the broker who offers a low price or the producer who accepts a low offer? > Aaron, you are a either a semiologist or a psycologist, aren't you? Neither. The point I was making was I was surprised that your response to "Apimondia anyone?" turned into a discussion on world honey prices, which was so readily picked up by so many other contributors. Obviously honey prices is a hotter topic than Apimondia. > ... I do not understand what you aim to deduct of my communication to > the list ... do you still think that a "deflated price" is a great > price for Argentine beekeepers? Do not turn what I wrote into an assualt on Argentina, I was very careful in my writing not to make it so. For your understanding, I offered the observation that as long as there are producers who accept "deflated prices" there will be deflated prices. Not until producers EVERYWHERE say no to deflated prices will there be no deflated prices. Elementary Business Administration? Yes! You DO understand what I was saying! What I still don't understand is how Argentine producers standing firm at 85 cents per pound so struggling US producers can buy it up is going to bring I.H.E.O. to its knees. Explain to me why IHEO and other brokers won't simply buy from other markets! I do not think "deflated prices" are great prices for ANY honey producers. But obviously there are a lot of producers who don't agree with me because enough are accepting the deflated prices to keep the commodity brokers in business. You wrote: > the true and most important interest of beekeepers is to make a decent > living by making the most money out of your honey. I simply offer that your definition of a "decent living" is not the same as others would define it. I agree that if one sells their crop to brokers at brokers' prices they are not going to make what you and I would call a decent living. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can make a living on what brokers pay. But some are willing to eek out a living on brokers' current offerings. Either those producers have lower expectations or they're in it for something besides the money. > Another serious problem that American beekeeping will face is the lack > of young people engaged in the beekeeping industry. This is not just a problem facing beekeeping, it's a problem facing agriculture in general. In the states you just can't keep 'em down on the farms. However in a supply and demand economy this will be self correcting. As more get out of it supply will fall, prices will rise and more people will get into it - or we'll buy our honey from Argentina ;) Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:24:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I am more familiar with the metric system, in my effort to use only pounds I made a major mistake in the paragraph below: When I refer to: -275 thousand pounds, I should have written 275 million pounds. -352 thousand pounds, I should have written 352 million pounds. Again I apologize for my error. >We didn't get the mites neither into the US nor in South America. At the >same time (1989-1997), domestic consumption of honey in the US grew from 275 >thousand pounds to 352 thousand pounds (a 28% increase). If you have less >hives, then you have less production but if at the same time local demand >goes up it is not surprising you need to import more honey. In 1990 US >imports of honey were 75,000 pounds, in 1997 more than 160,000 pounds. Martin Braunstein Queen Breeder & Exporter Criador de Reinas y Exportador Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar Phone (54+11)4446-8350 Fax (54+2322)487564 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:44:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. G. Miller" Subject: Re: World Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For those who pick on the "hobby" beekeepers as the source of the low prices, please consider that most of the "hobby" beekeepers I know of (including myself) go after the premium market at the premium price. As for myself, I sell pound jars of extracted honey for $3.50, and pounds of creamed honey for $4.00 - hardly "bargain basement" prices. My thoughts - If you treat your honey like a commodity product, then don't be surprised if you can only get commodity prices for it. W. G. Miller Gaithersburg, MD ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:18:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Khalil Amero Subject: What should I do MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listers,. I am a new beekeeper in Jordan with 30 colonies .This season is weak with low rainfall rates .I make supering of about half of my colonies the honey flow is comming within days. I afraid that the others will not go in to the season because they are at 8 & 9 bee combs, 5 &6 brood combs. Is there any suggestion to increase the chances of these colonies to enter the season. Another question , what is the appropiat no. of comb filled by brood in the super that allow me to make Demareeing. Thanks for any suggestion Khalil Amro ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:11:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: World Honey Prices Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/99 5:43:53 PM EST, WGMiller@AOL.COM writes: > My thoughts - If you treat your honey like a commodity product, then don't be > surprised if you can only get commodity prices for it. > The commodity honey is on the shelves of the big foreign owned supermarkets here in Connecticut USA. (Shaws, Stop and Shop) It is my benchmark- If I can't put a better than supermarket flavored honey in a jar then I feed it back to the bees and sell a few nucs. I can get $10 US for a qt jar direct and I get $8 from my retailers who keep a dozen jars on the counter for me. I only keep 30 colonies and I think I would damn near cry if I had to sell honey in 55 gallon drums at the prices the big guys get. I guess they have to sell pollination or go belly up. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:46:43 -0500 Reply-To: jfischer@supercollider.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: World Honey Prices (and the hobbyist beekeeper) In-Reply-To: <199903091213.HAA08162@headend.cablenet-va.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris recently took exception to my recent tongue-in-cheek comments on the "World Honey Prices" thread in regard to "hobbyist beekeepers". Come, now - I gave more than adequate warning in the very first paragraph that I was clearly NOT being serious. While I myself am very clearly a "hobbyist beekeeper, (and am a similar "vertically integrated" producer/ marketer/retailer) like those who took exception to the comments, I must admit to knowing of no other possible term that could be used to describe the counter-intuitive "business decisions" described by the gentleman from Argentina, since they clearly are not the actions of someone who wishes to make a profit. There is no need to "defend" the "Hobbyist Beekeeper" within the context of the "World Honey Prices" discussion. No one has attacked. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Re: Yellow Jasmine Bloom: Poison, feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David (And Allen Dick in his reply), Thanks for your informative E-Mail. i live in central South Carolina and was in my hives Saturday. Although I had lots of bees (2 deeps crammed full in each hive) I have very very little honey stores. one hive had a frame of capped honey, the other had just open cells. I have been feeding since the first of Feb, trying to build up for spring, and was maintaining stores pretty well, until we were hit with 3 cold snaps in 2 weeks. I could tell the hive was getting lighter each time I lifted it. Needless to say, the hives have syrup on them now. Also, I have had Jasmine blooming for the last week or so all around the house, so I will keep some sort of 'feed' on the hive until the bloom tapers off. thanks again Rod Billett New Hobbiest w/ 2 Hives. Lexington, SC ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:47:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > What do the dairy farmers have that beekeepers don't? > An organized voice? A flush Dairy Council? Lobbiests? > $$$$,$$$,$$$.$$? > This thread is good and may open a few minds. Why are the dairy farmers on top of the game? They came to realize early on , what they needed to do as a group to make all of there lives easier.They did not just go after the market place. The breeding for milk production was one big step.It worked and they used it.That brought in more product and increased there bottom line.More money and then they used it to promote there product and still more money in there pocket. Why can't beekeepers get to the same place with an organized voice?They will settle for less and complain about there problems.A few producer- packers went with the packers in setting up the NHB.I'm still shaking my head at the lay out of that organization.Keep the fox in the hen house.Until that changes, US producers will stay in there place.No real control over what the public will buy.I'm not against the packers. They have there own businesses to run.There tune is different by nature. Buy low and sell high.They are very smart and up to now have controlled the market place.They are using US producers money to promote the sale of Honey. No matter where it comes from. As long as enough producers > have enough honey and are willing to sell it cheaply enough to meet the > packers' needs, prices will remain depressed. Who's the bad guy here, > the buyer who offers a low price or the seller who accepts the low > offer? That is the bottom line.The problem comes in , when the seller needs to move his honey to pay the bills.Its down to, who's in the barrel.If it was down to US honey selling in the stores, the shoe would be on the other foot.To get there is a problem that needs a lot of work by US producers.The market needs to be set. Education of the public of the US of the product needs to be in place.Everyone of us have a place there and need to get the word out on our own.I have developed my own market in Seattle.It takes time and you may have to give talks to schools and other groups. But the reward is real and green.That is small scale and needs to be done all over the US and then watch what is selling on the store shelves.Its simple, you control it or someone else will control it for you.We have a long way to go, but we can get there, Just like the Dairy Farmers. Ideas are great but work provides results. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:11:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Donald James Tupper Subject: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa Comments: To: Best of Bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anybody had any expierence using food grade mineral oil in their hives for the purpose of killing varroa mites? I've read all of Dr. Rodriquezs work and have tried his method. I found that they work great in reducing the varroa population. The question is why isn't there more info on this method anywhere? Any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks. Donny Tupper Red Top Aparies ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:15:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: World Honey Markets (today's installment) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi Martin and all who have been following the "World Honey Prices" thread, A lead item in the world news the past few days has been the plight of dairy farmers, many of whom ramped up production to take advantage of higher prices recently. The results have been a glut of milk and dairy products and prices have dropped dramatically. Dairymen are now singing the blues that they are unable to recoup their ramping up costs based on current market prices. Is this not the same perdicament that many beekeepers ar in? The best offering for honey in recent years was about $1/lb US wholesale. A number of things came together all at once to push prices to that level (implementation of Chinese quotas, devastating colony losses attributed to varroa, poor harvests). Many producers were quick to react to $1/lb and ramped up to increase their production. Wholesale prices plumeted and many producers were left singing the blues that they were unable to recoup their ramping up costs based on current market prices. Now, two years later we're left with prices a bit better but pretty close to what they were the year before the $1/lb spike. Before the spike the whipping dog was China, after the spike the whipping dog is Agentina. In the meantime there are a lot of producers not of Chinese and Argentine persuasion who are also accepting pre/post-spike offerings for their honey. Now, if the problem is this simple we can whip whichever dog we choose but the bottom line is supply and demand - there is sufficient supply to satisfy demand whithout brokers having to pay a high price. That "Argentina has doubled its production in ten years" may have something to do with this supply, but I am just as guilty as I personally can claim at least comparable increases. However, if the problem is oligopsony as Martin claims then perhaps we should stop whipping dogs and look at the oligopsony. Webster's defines oligopsony as "a market situation in which a few buyers control the demand from a large number of sellers." For the sake of discussion let us agree that oligopsony is indeed the problem. How do we deal with that? I doubt that the suggestion for US beekeepers to corner the market on Argentine honey by buying it up for a price higher than they get for their own honey is gonna happen. The economics simply aren't there for the buyer (although this plan appears to be a good deal for the sellers!). So, is there another way to combat oligopsony? Although we do not like brokers who buy low and sell high, there is nothing unethical about what they are doing. Buy low, sell high is a capitalist success story. There is something more sinister to the term "oligopsony". Perhaps there is something unfair, perhaps illegal about the communication among the "Seven exporting firms (who) concentrate over 90% of honey exports in Argentina". In the states, collusion to fix prices is a crime. Are there no similar laws in Agrentina? Does the communication among "the seven firms" constitute collusion or is it just sound business practice? I don't know the answer, I suspect it is a fine line. Might there be some other way to cut out the oligopsonous middle men? Perhaps a co-op of Argentine producers so Argentina can corner their own market? Thank you Martin for the awareness of the marketing practices of these companies (ACA, HONEYMAX, CEASA, NEXCO, TIMES, CONAGRA and RADIX). I will be more aware of who and what they are if/when our paths cross at Apimondia. Respectfully submitted, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:54:28 +0000 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Subject: (Fwd) Re: World Honey Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Martin, Nice to have some input from Argentina. I'm having trouble following your arguments as the often appear to contradict themselves. Perhaps this is your writing style and my reading of it. I think I am right in understanding that you believe that Argentina is not getting "enough" for its honey. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think you are trying to say that your costs are high and therefore you can't sell at the prices you are getting??? > In woodenware we don't find much differences. A good pine super here is > U$S 5.50, a full depth frame 35 cents, a pound of foundation U$S 2.80. And you're saying beehives cost real money (investment) to make. > Now that you are aware of some our costs, do you still think that a > "deflated price" is a great price for Argentine beekeepers? > but a demonstration that labor costs although different in both > the US and Argentina final production costs are not different but > compensated with other costs that are extremely cheaper in the US like > fuel and HFCS. so your costs are *really* high!? You also indicate that Argentina has doubled production in the last 10 years. Now to double production means a huge investment in increased beehive numbers. In 1989 Argentina had 1,400,000 hives.(FAO figures) Today 2,000,00 (Arno Meier - Beebiz article) In all capitalist countries, the only place *investment* capital comes from is from loans, gifts or after tax profit. After tax profit is the final arbiter. If you are not producing a profit, (selling for more than your [high] costs), you don't have tax paid profits - and you can't expand without loans or gifts. Loans usually need some form of proof of performance i.e. profits. Gifts are usually in short supply. Now since you are not getting "enough", i.e you seem to be claiming you are not making a profit, the money to double production with all those extra beehives (and associated paraphanallia) in Argentina in 10 years (no mean feat when you have OTC resistant AFB) must be coming from loans or gifts. My question is: Who has put up the money to build 600,000 beehives in Argentina in the last 10 years if you don't make a profit? or put another way..... Who's your Fairy Godmother and Banker?? Cheers, Peter Bray ---------------------------------------------------------------- Airborne Honey Ltd., PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 peter@airborne.co.nz We Accept MS Word 2.0 Files, Excel 4.0, Corel Draw 8.0, *.BMP, *.JPG, *.TIF, *.PCX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:04:23 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Australian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee Listers, Could someone help me get good queens from Australia. I've heard of a queen improvement program going on there. I tried to hook up to their sawebring but couln't get in. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:57:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom bradley Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Rodriquez has reported to The Tidewater Beekeeper's Association, his home association, that he has gone to Spain to work with researchers there in order to perform publishable research and develop a satisfactory and efficient method to apply FGMO and/or other associated controls for Varroa and/or tracheal mites. There has been other research performed (using natural oils) in conjunction with a University in West Virginia which details escape me right now. If you perform a search in the archives it should pop up. There is a website associated with this. Perhaps those persons involved would like to give us an update. Thom Bradley Norfolk, VA area Donald James Tupper wrote: > Has anybody had any expierence using food grade mineral oil in their hives > for the purpose of killing varroa mites? I've read all of Dr. Rodriquezs > work and have tried his method. I found that they work great in reducing the > varroa population. The question is why isn't there more info on this method > anywhere? Any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks. > > Donny Tupper > Red Top Aparies ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:15:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Honey price (from Dr.Hugo Aguirre) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by hugoagui@SGUILLERMO.DATACOP3.COM.AR to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to improve formatting only, no content was changed. Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 03:45:21 -0300 To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hugo Aguirre Subject: Honey price (from Dr.Hugo Aguirre) Dear beekeepers, honey producers, honey-packers, honey-etc: Mr. Martin Braunstein really "kicked the hive" with his mail explainig to this list what is happening to all the Argentina's beekeepers, I would say "to many honey producers all over the world". Search BEE-L about "honey price" and you will agree with me.- Does not surprise me when those who reply him got so many different point of view about the same thing: who is the guilty?, what to do?, what will happen?, who gets the bigest piece of the cake?. I know that is because all depends if you produce or purchase honey. Mr.James Fischer wrote: "The price paid for foreign honey must get higher at each step in the chain from: a) Foreign producer b) Foreign broker c) Foreign exporter/brokerd) US importer/broker e) US wholesaler f) US retailer g) and (at long last) the US consumer" In that, every ones agree with him; that is the reason why all the beekeepers from Argentina, organiced in different groups, are offering honey at decent price (production cost plus logical profit), directly to foreign packers, dealers, industrials, etc. all over the world. Also this groups are working on local market strategies so that increase the consume. Folks, every one knows: "for to find a wealthy first you have to find a poor" but also we know that there is sun and honey for every one in the all world. So, why don't be smart and clever? Using the same spoon we can eatat the same table!!!!! Dr. Hugo Aguirre Beekeeper G.P. Apitherapist COLMENARES IBOPE =====> hugoagui@sguillermo.datacop3.com.ar *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:48:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: World Honey Markets (from Martin Braunstein) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was originally submitted by malka@WEBNET.COM.AR to the BEE-L list at CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to improve formatting only, no content was changed. From: "Martin Braunstein" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: RE: World Honey Markets (today's installment) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:19:01 -0600 Hi all, Do you want to know more about some of the people who determine the price of honey worldwide? This group was created back in 1983 at the Apimondia Congress held in Budapest (Hungary). Please find below part of the interview made by "Bee Biz" (Issue 8 - July 1998) to Mr. Arno Meier (German exporter of Argentine honey and secretary of IHEO) Bee Biz : Arno, thank you for giving us so many insights into part of the business that is a mistery to most of us. I would like to discuss, if that is convenient, another side of your activities. You are secretary of IHEO, the International Honey Exporters' Organisation. Can I ask you about that body and how it operates ? Arno Meier : Yes, of course. The basic idea goes back to 1983, when during the APIMONDIA at Budapest several exporters from different countries met and talked about the need to be better informed about the world honey market in order to obtain better honey prices. Its objectives are : to achieve stable conditions in the international trade of honey, taking into consideration world production, stocks, consumption, variations of rates of exchange as well as general world economic conditions. But the first and most important point to date is to develop a communication link between the world's honey exporting countries to exchange views on a regular basis. These reports are exchanged monthly. Every country makes one report which goes to the Secretary, who makes one general report with all the information received, which is returned to each IHEO member country. Meetings are every two years, at APIMONDIA, but if the market requires it, IHEO can meet each year, as it did during the first six years. This was important to strengthen the relationship between members, in order to create confidence between them. And we succeeded. Bee Biz : Who can belong to IHEO ? Arno Meier : A member can be only a country which is a bulk honey exporter. Members include the main bulk honey exporters, ie China, Argentina, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Uruguay, Cuba and Canada, but also smaller exporters like Nicaragua and Vietnam. From Europe we have Bulgaria, and in the past Hungary was a very active member. To join us, we prefer a group of traders from each country ; they have the market information and they need an overview of world honey situation, but as a first step we also accept an individual export company. IHEO is not a place for government officials, universities, beekeepers, importers or packers. All of them have their own organisations. Bee Biz : Does the organisation have any power ? Arno Meier : There is no visible power, but the point is that understanding and communication between members has helped to improve and create stable market conditions. For example, if China knows that Argentina will have or has a very bad crop, there is no reason to drop their prices; or if Argentina knows about a good eucalyptus harvest in Australia it makes no sense to speculate with pushing up prices for the darker grades. Bee Biz : What are the benefits of joining ? Arno Meier : Tomorrow there can be considerable benefits even if we only think that IHEO can help with information about items as : honey regulations in different buyer countries (mostly unknown to exporters) ; exchange of information about notorious claimers in the world ; collection of anti-economic practices of port authorities or inspection offices at some places ; rejection of an excess of clauses in sales contracts ; advice or legal help in case of unjustified pressure on clients, or in cases of complaints or claims. All this information can be received, classified and stored, in a database. Nowadays these things are simple. But let's understand this clearly, we will not defend defaults or justified quality claims. We are not an arbitration office, we are also not a place where problems between member countries and foreign customers will be analysed. This is a problem between business partners and no part of the work of IHEO. We will take note only if the member country asks us for help or advice. Bee Biz : How do members contribute ? Arno Meier : IHEO is conducted on a non-financial basis e.g. no membership fees are asked for, each member country must bear its own costs, such as faxes, costs of administration and attending meetings. Any member country may withdraw from IHEO at any time by written notice to the Secretary. Bee Biz : Any snags ? Arno Meier : Reliable statistics is a big problem. We are mainly working with those from the import countries. Argentina has a good Statistics and Census Bureau, but often honey is not an important export item, so some export countries carry honey together with cheese, eggs and dairy products in their statistics. Bee Biz : Arno Meier, thank you for your time and interest. Many of our readers will be at the next Apimondia - I expect they will be able to meet you there ? Arno Meier : Of course. As you imagine honey, the market, competition, crops, quality, etc. are topics on which we can talk for hours, so I appreciate your questions. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My comments : -How come this IHEO group never received media attention ? You can read back issues of the American Bee Journal, Bee Culture, The Speedy Bee and some non-US bee journals you will not find any reference whatsoever (except "Bee Biz"). Strange, isn't it ? -Are there still any candid beekeepers willing to believe that a non-producers organization will "defend the price of honey" ? According to Mr. Meier's perspective "defend the price of honey... to obtain better honey prices", well... I doubt his assertion suggest to pay better prices to beekeepers. -Mr. Meier says that IHEO "has no visible power", this makes me think IHEO has some sort of "invisible" power. -World honey exportes have their own organization : IHEO, European honey packers have theirs too EFHP ; US packers have the NHPDA. They all compete among them but they defend the common interest : to obtain a cheap raw material. -Don't you think it is high time now not to create false antagonisms between US and Argentine beekeepers and so on ? -Who are our true competitors ? I think you know the answer. Those who depress our prices. Martin Braunstein Queen Breeder & Exporter Criador de Reinas y Exportador Malka Cabania Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar Phone (54+11)4446-8350 Fax (54+2322)487564 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:17:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would love to see testimonials from those who used FGMO exclusively over the past few years, including their application method. That thread died off I think because those who used it went elsewhere, but I hope not. I tried it instead of crisco patties for varroa and tracheal mites, but also use Apistan for varroa, so any results I get are not valid. For us in Maine, this year appears to be the next major varroa kill year. Only my guess, but with all the swarms for a varroa safe haven, and laxness I have seen from some beekeepers who were lucky and did not treat, the mite has a good breeding ground. So if FGMO works this year I will be a believer. Bill T bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:05:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "(Thomas) (Cornick)" Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have been using mineral oil as a supplement to Apistan brushed on to the underside of the inner cover and the top bars of the frames. I have yet to abandon Apistan in favor of mineral oil exclusively in any of my hives. The primary observable advantage to me from the oil is things don't get stuck together as badly. If it does in fact kill the mites that is OK too. 29 out of 30 colonies alive and well here in CT however winter is not done with us. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:01:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John K. Warsaw" Subject: Re: World Honey Markets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nobody in this discussion has mentioned "cross-elasticity of market". In simple terms, this refers to the notion that when the price of an item changes, it may have an impact on the price of similar products. In the case of honey, these products might include corn syrup and refined sugar. (Yes, I know they are different. But in at least some applications they can all be used.) If bakers and soft drink makers must pay a lot for other sweeteners, then honey becomes an attractive option, they buy more, and the price goes up. If the other sweeteners are cheap, the large buyers will select on price alone and not buy honey. I also question whether large-scale honey producers ever really made their money on honey, or if they became large through pollination contracts. At a time when feral bees are (depending on the study) possibly in short supply due to mites and other causes, the price of a pollination contract should be going up. If honey is only a sideline for large producers with pollination contracts, then these producers may be oversupplying the honey market. This forces down the price paid to smaller producers, who don't rent hives for pollination. In short, I think any discussion of the price of honey must look far beyond the direct cost of production. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:59:31 -0800 Reply-To: ryarnell@orednet.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Honey price This thread illustrates the problem. Some folks are putting quite a bit of time into the exchange. We're preaching to the choir. In the US, we should be directing our comments to our legislatures, State and Federal, and to the USDA. Until I was roped into helping with a small family apiary, I thought the honey subsidy was a terrible misuse of Federal funds, however few. Now I know better and take every opportunity to let my Rep know why. Because we are really small potatoes and sell everything we produce retail, thank you, I emphasize support of bees as pollinators which justifies anything that can be done to keep beekeepers, large and small, in business and thriving. I also point out that the costs of keeping healthy hives has skyrocketed. There are local beekeeping clubs all over the place. We have some pretty decent writers enrolled here on this list. It appears to me the resources are in place to organize a demand that funds be returned to the industry, that the allowable restrictions on imports be enforced, and that funds be put back into research on parasites, adulterants in imported product, etc. As for the milk industry: we should infiltrate it to see how, in an amply supplied market, they can sustain the prices they do and how, given the same glut, they managed to get the production inducing, cow destroying hormone approved. -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:22:42 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Feeding the Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I recently obtained a copy of a booklet entitled 'Listen to the Bees' by Rex Boys. This publication relates the story of the Apidictor, goes into the theory of the device but does not supply sufficient information to construct one. However I am following it up with Rex Boys as he states that around 300 were manufactured - he specifies UK design patent no 729067.1958. He further states that last summer (1998) two beekeepers were supplied with data enabling faults to be cured. I get the impression that this is purely a hobbyists device. My main purpose in sending this post was to show the following statement from the booklet to see if the members think that it is reliable. 'An average hive has about 4000 nurse bees of which half are feeding larvae and the other half feeding the queen who eats 20 times her own weight in a day. Even if there is a drop in demand, the nurses go on producing food; they cannot help it because they are at that stage in the life cycle.' This seems to me to be a very high proportion of the nurse bees. I also seem to recall that if the nursing requirements diminish, nurse bees will be re assigned to guard duties or foraging. I shall be grateful for comments, and thanks for recent input on Apideas. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland Hobbyist beekeeper e mail cssl@iol.ie Tel + 353 1 289 5269 Fax + 353 1 289 9940 Latitude 53 Degrees 16' North Longitude 6 Degrees 9' West of Greenwich ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor Sten Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi This will be my 3rd season without apistan. Instead I am using m.o. on the top bars only combined with grease patties with wintergreen oil, the patties are put in at the same time as I wrap for winter. The oil was applied during the spring, summer and atumn for a total of 3 times. When I started this method I had 8 hives versus now 22. The augmentation stems from splits and caught swarms. No quuens were purchased. So far all my hives are alive including two, in my basement coldroom, which were late swarms too small to winter outside. Viktor in Hawkesbury, On. where it is snowing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:06:13 -0500 Reply-To: Rod Hewitt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Hewitt Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was the oil applied right from the bottle or was it cut in some way? -----Original Message----- From: Viktor Sten To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 6:18 AM Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa >Hi > >This will be my 3rd season without apistan. Instead I am using m.o. >on the top bars only combined with grease patties with wintergreen >oil, the patties are put in at the same time as I wrap for winter. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor Sten Subject: Re: The use of mineral oil in controling Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Rod Hewitt asked >Was the oil applied right from the bottle or was it cut in some way? The oil was applied uncut from a squeese bottle with a 1/16" opening in 1 straight bead on the top frame bar. Viktor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:58:25 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Australian Queens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joel F. Magsaysay wrote: > >Could someone help me get good queens from Australia. I've heard of a queen >improvement program going on there. I tried to hook up to their sawebring >but couln't get in. > Joel, the sawebring is not a beekeeping link up but a local ring for sites of interest in South Australia. Our web page was invited onto this ring not for reference by beekeepers but because Kangaroo Island is a major tourist destination in South Australia and the Ligurian bee sanctuary was judged to be of interest for members of the public. Your difficulty in connecting may be because some of the members are a bit lax in up-dating the code for links. I note you have emailed me direct re Ligurian queens to which I have responded. There are many fine queen breeders in Australia and I suggest you refer to http://www.honeybee.com.au. I am sure the Australian queen bee breeders who are members of Bee-L will also be in direct contact. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: What should I do Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Khalil wrote on the ability of his hives to become productive from very different levels of brood. Khalil, when I first took up beekeeping I was constantly worrying about the health of my hives - with the exception of a queenless hive, bees have a remarkable ability to adjust to favourable and unfavourable conditions. Hives with half a frame of brood can build to productive levels after 6 weeks on a nectar/pollen source. Hives with 5 brood combs are poised to enter the new season with an explosion of brood raising. You do need to monitor the food supply and bee activity (this is the attraction of beekeeping - it's fun to visit hives). The points you need to watch for is that there are sufficient foraging bees to bring in fresh nectar/pollen to feed the brood. If starting from very small population levels, frames of sealed honey or supplementary feeding may be required until the brood has been raised and foraging bees are in good supply. A frame of brood will consume a frame of honey before the bees are old enough to forage. However supplies are being brought in and consumed continually. Check to see there is nectar available for hatching bees close to the brood area. The bees will increase or cut back on brood raising as seasonal conditions fluctuate. In connection with your question on the population level before Demaree process, this is a method of artificial swarm control and requeening. The time to do this is as the hives reach swarming strength. The queen requires availability of drones. These are at prime suitability for mating about 2 weeks after hatching so Demaree should not be considered until at least 6 weeks after hives have commenced drone rearing and at the point when the brood box is full of brood and bees. If the hive commences queen cells, then it is also ready to Demaree. It may be helpful for you to ask an experienced beekeeper to look at your hives and tell you how they compare with other hives at this time of the season and whether there are any signs of disease. Betty McAdam > HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Green Subject: Photos of Afrobeetles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If you'd like to see pictures of the new US pest, the African Hive beetle, and the damage they do, visit: http://www.pollinator.com/afrobeetles.htm Pollinator@aol.com Dave Green Hemingway, SC USA The Pollination Scene: http://users.aol.com/pollinator/polpage1.html The Pollination Home Page: http://www.pollinator.com Jan's Sweetness and Light Shop (Varietal Honeys and Beeswax Candles) http://users.aol.com/SweetnessL/sweetlit.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 07:18:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cermak Paul Subject: bicyclohexylammonium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am currently involved in rearing bumblebees (Bombus impatiens). I've been using Fumagilin-B (chemical name: bicyclohexylammonium)in the sugar solution to control Nosema. Somebody mentioned to me that this may have negative effects on the bee's especially if I am trying to breed the bees. I would appreciate it if anyone knows of any potential side effects of this chemical on bumblebees or honey bees they could let me know. Thank you Paul Cermak _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm2a12.ben.sover.net [207.136.200.76] 207.136.200.76 Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:31:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Jeffrey R. Hills" Subject: Advice on hive set-up for feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking for advice - Location: Southern Vermont Date: March 14, 1996 Would like to start feeding my four hives, all of which have made it through the winter so far. A "lift test" shows two feeling somewhat light. I propose to feed using those black plastic in-the-hive feeders. Do I position them ABOVE the top board so the bees commute up through the hole in the board to an otherwise empty deep super? Or do I put the new deep super with just the feeder in it UNDER the top board, opening up a whole new cold place above the frames where the bees have made it through the winter so far? I want to feed them but I don't want them to be cold! Incidentally, they were fairly active in today's mid-day sun and 40+ temperature. Has anybody tried feeding Bee-Pro powder mixed with sugar water to form a patty at this time of year as suggested in the directions? Where do you put the patties? Thanks for any advice. Jeff Hills