From samba!concert!gatech!udel!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!pipex!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe Sun Feb 21 19:41:27 EST 1993
Article: 4760 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!udel!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!pipex!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe
From: roe@crosfield.co.uk (malcolm roe)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Beekeeping
Message-ID: <16205@suns8.crosfield.co.uk>
Date: 19 Feb 93 20:03:31 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.
Lines: 27

I've been watching this group for several months, hoping to see some
postings on beekeeping.  So far all I've seen has been a fairly lengthy
thread on killing bees, which was not quite what I had in mind!
(Actually, they turned out not to be bees in the end.)  Anyway, are
there any beekepers out there or should I be looking in some other
newsgroup?

One subject that particularly interests me is the varroa mite, which
has recently been detected in the UK for the first time, so we have very
little experience in detection or treatment.  A case has been found
about 15 miles from my bees.  This probably means I only have a few years
before my bees become infected too.

We are getting information from beekeepers in continental Europe (mainly
Germany) and I would certainly be interested in anything more from there.
However, most of the postings in this group seem to come from North
America.  I would be particularly interested to hear any experience
or advice from American beekeepers.

Post your answers if you think they are likely to be of general interest.
Otherwise mail me.  I will summarize if I get a reasonable response.

-- 
Malcolm Roe                            Phone  :  +44 442 230000 ext 4104
Crosfield Electronics Ltd              Fax    :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK    E-mail :  roe@crosfield.co.uk 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpfcso!duanej Sat Feb 27 21:19:47 EST 1993
Article: 4798 of misc.rural
From: duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane Jacobson)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1993 22:14:03 GMT
Subject: cash crop
Message-ID: <122980025@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpfcso!duanej
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Lines: 6


Does anyone have references, or experiences to share, pertaining to
growing fruits/vegetables as a cash crop on a small farm? Related
organizations or periodicals?  ( I know about the "Growing for Market"
newsletter.)  I'm talking about a part-time venture here, and would
guess that 5-10 acres would be plenty to keep one busy, yes?


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!rerickso Sat Feb 27 21:20:01 EST 1993
Article: 4799 of misc.rural
Xref: samba rec.gardens:14008 misc.rural:4799
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!rerickso
From: rerickso@cwis.unomaha.edu (Ronald D. Erickson)
Subject: Re: lingonberries
Message-ID: <1993Feb25.123148.13964@news.unomaha.edu>
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
References: <1993Feb22.023819.17555@mlfarm.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 12:31:48 GMT
Lines: 7


Check with the closest Swedish Consulate office.  
Lingonberries are a Scandinavian treat.  I think they
might be grown in Minnesota, but I am not sure.

Ron
AK0N 


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com!cpqhou!thomasr Sat Feb 27 21:20:31 EST 1993
Article: 4802 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wotan.compaq.com!twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com!cpqhou!thomasr
From: thomasr@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com (G. Thomas Rush)
Subject: Longhorns
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 14:40:02 GMT
Message-ID: <C30E2r.2C2@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com>
Lines: 19

I believe someone posted a request for infomation on longhorn
cattle to this group -- thanks to a trip yesterday to the Houston
Livestock Show and Rodeo, I have two references:

Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America
PO Box 4430
Fort Worth, TX	76164
817 625 6241

International Texas Longhorn Association
307 Neches Street
Austin, TX	78701
512 472 8009


thomas rush			compaq computer corporation	
thomasr@cpqhou.compaq.com	their employee, not their opinions.
By my belief that government should be minimized, I swear to oppose
the unrequested intrusion of government into the lives of individuals


From samba!concert!gatech!udel!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!rdsunx.crd.ge.com!NewsWatcher!user Sat Feb 27 21:21:31 EST 1993
Article: 4803 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!udel!bogus.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!crdgw1!rdsunx.crd.ge.com!NewsWatcher!user
From: Ligon@macgw1.ge.com (Woody Ligon)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: cash crop
Message-ID: <Ligon-250293101405@3.1.100.11>
Date: 25 Feb 93 15:29:11 GMT
References: <122980025@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>
Sender: usenet@crd.ge.com (Required for NNTP)
Followup-To: misc.rural
Distribution: usa
Organization: GE-CRD
Lines: 37
Nntp-Posting-Host: 3.1.100.11

In article <122980025@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane
Jacobson) wrote:
> 
> 
> Does anyone have references, or experiences to share, pertaining to
> growing fruits/vegetables as a cash crop on a small farm? Related
> organizations or periodicals?  ( I know about the "Growing for Market"
> newsletter.)  I'm talking about a part-time venture here, and would
> guess that 5-10 acres would be plenty to keep one busy, yes?

Probably 5 acres would keep you busier than you want to be.  But the real
problem isn't the growing--it's the marketing.

My wife and I grow strawflowers and related things every year but it has
taken years to get to the point where the wholsalers will deal with us. We
spent what seems like forever selling and delivering to lots of little
florists who wanted to buy $2 worth of stuff. It wasn't worth the gas. But
eventually people learned that we had really high quality materials and
then we were able to get orders from the big wholesalers and we started
doing much better. I am pretty sure we now produce over half the
strawflowers used in the whole Albany, NY area!

If your area has a "farmers market" and you stick to fruits & veggies then
you might be able to get by with that sort of outlet.  But this isn't
terribly profitable and it can take up tons of time. 

In the Fruit and Veggie business what you really need is a produce manager
at a large chain store who has confidence in you and will take your stuff.
There is a chain in Richmond, Virginia that makes a real point of dealing
with local growers. They actually write checks on the dock which is really
unusual.  But in most cities finding this degree of interest is a serious
challenge. 


Good Luck
Woody Ligon
(ligon@macgw1.crd.ge.com)


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!rose!usenet Sat Feb 27 21:22:11 EST 1993
Article: 4806 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!uvaarpa!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!rose!usenet
From: john.ferguson@rose.com (john ferguson)
Subject: cash crop
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Distribution: misc
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1993 02:28:56 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Feb26.022859.3280@rose.com>
Sender: usenet@rose.com (Usenet Gateway)
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)
Lines: 43


Date Entered: 02-25-93 21:18
L(> In article <122980025@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, duanej@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Duane
  > Jacobson) wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone have references, or experiences to share, pertaining to
> growing fruits/vegetables as a cash crop on a small farm? Related
> organizations or periodicals?  ( I know about the "Growing for Market"
> newsletter.)  I'm talking about a part-time venture here, and would
> guess that 5-10 acres would be plenty to keep one busy, yes?

L(> Probably 5 acres would keep you busier than you want to be.  But the real
  > problem isn't the growing--it's the marketing.

It seems that Pick Your Own operations are the best way to go. You avoid
the backbreaking work of harvesting and the marketing problem. You can pick
up some customers that you harvest for as you go. You can pick the cream of
the crop for these people and charge more. After you supply your regular
wholesale or retail customers you can open that item up as Pick Your Own.
It will start out slow depending on how much you advertise but as you go
you will pick up many steady customers. A friend of my fathers had one of
these operations in Nova Scotia for about 15 years. He usually handled it
in this order when an item was ready for harvest:

             1. Pick the cream of the crop for your regular retail
                customers.
             2. Pick the next level of quality for your wholesale
                customers.
             3. Call regular pickers and let them know that crop is ready.
             4. Put up the signs and open it up to everyone.

You have to do a bit of balanceing to keep everyone happy. My fathers friend
had a playground set up and picnic tables around the place. he would get a
lot of mothers and children during the week and families making a picnic
of it on the weekend.

    John F.


---
   SPEED 1.20 [NR]   Yes my son, long ago mail was read 1 packet at a time.
   RoseMail 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285


From samba!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron Sat Feb 27 21:22:34 EST 1993
Article: 4807 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.forsale:53776 rec.crafts.textiles:3542 rec.org.sca:33118 misc.rural:4807
Newsgroups: misc.forsale,rec.crafts.textiles,rec.org.sca,misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron
From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Subject: fleeces for handspinners
Message-ID: <1993Feb24.161528.20414@mlfarm.com>
Followup-To: poster
Sender: news@rosie.mlfarm.com
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1993 16:15:28 GMT
Lines: 39

We have a few fine Cotswold and colored fleeces available from the
recent shearing of our flock.  The fleeces were handshorn with blades,
and are free of second-cuts and clean.  Fleeces over 10 pounds are
long staple (6-10 inches); the others are medium staple (3-6 inches).
The Cotswold fleeces are ivory/gold in the grease, bright white when
washed, with a pronounced curl and crimp, and high lustre.  Several of
these sheep have won best-in-show in wool classes at fairs.

	name		breed		weight	color
	---------------------------------------------
	Jeffrey		Cotswold	16	
	Amy		Cotswold	10.5	
	Sydney		Cotswold	8
	Amew		Cotswold	13.5	
	Pearl		Cotswold X	11.5	cafe-au-lait
	Maggie		Cotswold X	12	cafe-au-lait
	Mary		Romney X	10.5	silver/brown
	Annie		Cotswold X	13	silver
	Brennan		Cotswold	16	
	Change		Cotswold	17	
	Serenity	Cotswold	16	
	Queen		Cotswold	12
	Princess	Cotswold	15
	Oreo		Corrie X Col	7.5	silver/brown, medium-fine
	Quimby		Cotswold	6
	Hotdog		Cotswold	7.5
	Remy		Cotswold	7.5

We also have Cotswold and grade lambs wool for sale by the pound.  The
fleeces are $4/pound.  The lambs wool is $2/pound.  Add $5 shipping
charge on orders under $50.  We will discount large orders.  

Please send email, call (203.535.3815) or fax (203.535.3576) if you
have questions about a specific fleece or special needs such as
matched fleeces.  Thanks for your interest.
-- 

				Ronald Florence
				ron@mlfarm.com


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe Sat Feb 27 21:23:22 EST 1993
Article: 4809 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!tamsun.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!bnrgate!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe
From: roe@crosfield.co.uk (malcolm roe)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Beekeeping: summary.
Message-ID: <16243@suns8.crosfield.co.uk>
Date: 26 Feb 93 18:34:34 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.
Lines: 26

I posted here recently, asking if this was the newsgroup for beekeepers.
I received a number of email replies.  Thanks everyone.  I was told there
is a mailing list for beekeepers.  Someone else asked an almost identical
question in rec.gardens and got the same answer.  I include, below, that
reply (somewhat shortened).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: moroney@world.std.com (Michael Moroney)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Beekeeping
Date: 25 Feb 93 02:16:45 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

I do not believe there is an actual newsgroup, but there is a mailing list.
Send a mail message to listserv@uacsc2.albany.edu with the body of the message
consists of one line: "SUBSCRIBE BEE_L <your name>"

-Mike (who had bees in the roof of my barn convince me to try beekeeping,
although unable to move/save that colony)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Malcolm Roe                            Phone  :  +44 442 230000 ext 4104
Crosfield Electronics Ltd              Fax    :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK    E-mail :  roe@crosfield.co.uk 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!REYNOLD Wed Mar  3 00:08:59 EST 1993
Article: 4820 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!REYNOLD
From: reynold@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Susan Reynold (w/out the s)")
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Cash Crop Question
Message-ID: <1993Mar1.144958.9146@news.cs.brandeis.edu>
Date: 1 Mar 93 14:49:58 GMT
Sender: news@news.cs.brandeis.edu (USENET News System)
Reply-To: reynold@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Lines: 12

The recent discussion on cash crops has given me an inkling as to 
what a cash crop is but I would like some clarification for my 
4th grade sons's report on Illinois.  

Under the "agriculture" section of his report, he has found that 
"corn" is one crop and "cash corn" is another.

Can someone explain the difference to me?

Thank you,
Susan
reynold@binah.cc.brandeis.edu


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!gumby!destroyer!fmsrl7!lynx.unm.edu!umn.edu!noc.msc.net!uc.msc.edu!raistlin!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry!mlo Fri Mar  5 17:23:13 EST 1993
Article: 4825 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: mlo@cray.com (Mick Oyer)
Subject: rotational grazing
Message-ID: <1993Mar2.140531.29251@hemlock.cray.com>
Lines: 58
Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry
Reply-To: mlo@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 2 Mar 93 14:05:31 CST


Greetings, misc.rural readers.

We are in the process of setting up a beef cattle operation.  So
far we have 3 Ayrshires approx. a year old, with more on the way
in about a month.  We've got a deal with a Wisconsin farmer where
he breeds his cows, keeps the heifers for his dairy operation and
ships us the bulls (which are soon turned into steers).

We attended a 2-day 'rotational grazing' conference last week and now are
hot to put some of these ideas into practice.

For those unfamiliar with rotational, or 'controlled' grazing, the
idea is to set up some paddocks, which are maybe 1-2 acres apiece for
grazing the cattle.  These paddocks, or 'pads' are usually separated
from each other by electric fence.  What you want to do is allow
the cattle, dairy cows, or whatever you are grazing to graze each
pad for maybe a day or two, then move them on to the next pad.

You want them to eat the forage (grasses) down to where the grass
is maybe 4-6", then move on.  You always want them eating the grass
that's in it's maximum nutritional range, grass from say 6" high
up until it starts to head out (go to seed).  Anyway, that's the
theory.

Advantages include letting the animals get maximum nutrition (protein)
from the grass, as well as allowing the pasture to provide a continual
supply of good fresh grass for as much of the year as possible.  It's
also not as necessary to grow, cut, windrow, bale and store hay, as
the animals are getting much more protein directly from the soil (lots
less work and tractoring required).

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone has any experience with this they'd like
to share.  We're just getting started and am finding that this can
be a relatively simple and inexpensive way to go if done correctly.
I've done some reading and it seems to make a lot of sense.  The two
big problems to address are:

	1)  A fairly cheap method to set up pads using single-strand
	    electric fence.

	2)  Though not strictly necessary, a method of getting water
	    to each pad is desirable.  The instructor of the seminar
	    uses 55-gallon plastic drums cut in half, with 3/4" PVC
	    buried 3-4" in the ground to direct water to each pad.

Seems that this is quite a big deal with New Zealand cattle farmers,
and is starting to take off here in the States.

Any comments, ideas, stories would be appreciated.

-Mick

---
   | Michael (Mick) Oyer   EMAIL  :  mlo@cherry.cray.com  ||  uunet!cray!mlo   |
   | Sr. Software Analyst  VMAIL  :  work: (612)-683-5855                      |
   | Cray Research, Inc.   USNAIL :  655F Lone Oak Dr., Eagan, MN 55120        |



From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!rpi!sarah!thor.albany.edu!dfp10 Fri Mar  5 17:24:42 EST 1993
Article: 4826 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!rpi!sarah!thor.albany.edu!dfp10
From: dfp10@csc.albany.edu (D Parsons)
Subject: 2nd CFV for sci.med.telemedicine and voter acknowledgement
Message-ID: <1993Mar3.184910.26220@sarah.albany.edu>
Originator: dfp10@thor.albany.edu
Sender: news@sarah.albany.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 18:49:10 GMT
Lines: 166


mass.ack       March 3, 1993

Re-post of the CALL FOR VOTES for the proposed Usenet News group:
                      sci.med.telemedicine
            Acknowledgement of Persons Voting Todate

Sent to UseNet News news.announce.newgroups, news.groups and
sci.med

CALL FOR VOTES for sci.med.telemedicine
(Repeat call and acknowledgement, 1 week after the start of
voting)

Following a three week discussion period during which all
responses were favorable, here is the official Call for Votes to
create the group.

STATUS: unmoderated

CHARTER:  Discussion of computer networks that connect between
          hospitals and/or physician's offices, including
          international linkages between medical facilities in
          different countries.

          Subjects will include hardware and software for such
          networks, increased use of networks for transmission of
          text and image patient data, and help in use of e-mail
          for medical purposes.

          The group will be linked to the bitnet list
          hspnet-l@albnydh2.

VOTING PERIOD: The voting period started with the posting of this
          CFV, and lasts for 30 days.  Votes received after
          23:59:59 GMT on 25 day of March 1993 will not be
          counted.

          Each person has only one vote, even if they have
          multiple computer accounts.  Votes must be mailed to
          the vote-taker (Donald Parsons).  Posted votes will not
          be counted.

HOW TO VOTE: Vote by sending mail to dfp10@csc.albany.edu or
          dfp10@albnydh2.bitnet with the word YES or NO in the
          subject line.  If you use rn or a similar news reader,
          you can use r (reply), edit YES or NO into the Subject
          line, and mail it.  Ideally your vote would appear as
          one of the following:

     Subject: YES sci.med.telemedicine
     Subject: NO  sci.med.telemedicine

Votes which do not contain yes or no in the subject line will
cause extra work but still will be counted so long as they are
unambiguous.

Votes will be acknowledged by mail, but any acknowledgement that
bounces will not be re-tried.  There will be at least one mass
acknowledgement (this document) posted during the voting period. 
The final vote tally will be posted at the end of the vote,
including a list showing how everyone voted.

If you vote more than once from the same address, only the most
recent vote received will be counted as valid.  If you vote more
than once from different addresses in an apparent attempt at a
vote fraud, all your votes may be rejected, and this fact plus
your name published in the net.

RESULT: At the end of the voting period, there will be a period
          of five days from the posting of the result to allow
          any errors to be noted and corrected.  The group will
          be created if at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes
          are received, with at least 2/3 of the valid votes in
          favor.  If both the 100 vote margin and 2/3 majority
          are not met, the group will not be created.
--------------------------------------------------------------

List of voter names and addresses to date - March 3, 1993

     Mark Atwood              matwood@peruvian.cs.utah.edu
     Bill Barbiaux            barbiaux@mr.med.ge.com
     Gary P. Barnas           barnas@post.its.mcw.edu
     Whitney Bischoff         bischoff@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
     Alan Bleier              bleier@menu.visus.com
     Heather Bloom            hbloom@moose.uvm.edu
     Andy Brager              swc!wndrsvr!wndrsvr.la.ca.us!andyb
     Gerhard Brauer           brauer@uvvm.uvic.ca
     Dave Carr                carr@acsu.buffalo.edu
     Ernest A. Cline          cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu
     Maurizio Codogno         mcodogno@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Martin Czigler           mcz@sarnoff.com
     Odile David              u53732@uicvm.bitnet
     Bernard Dumka            dumka@misfit.enet.dec.com
     Brian Manning            bmdelane@midway.uchicago.edu
     W. Dockery               wdockery@yalemed.bitnet
     Howard R. Doyle          doyle+@pitt.edu
     S. Dubin                 dubinse@duvm.bitnet
     John P. Duncan           jduncan@prism.nmt.edu
     Allan G. Farman          agfarm01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
     Tim Ferguson             tim.ferguson@dartmouth.edu
     James E. Furguson        ferguson@gidday.enet.dec.com
     Andrew Finkenstadt       andy@vistachrome.com
     Jan I. Fox               dac001@marshall.mu.wvnet.edu
     Joel Furr                jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Jay Gaeta                gaeta@mr.picker.com
     Thomas D. Gasser         thomasg@staff.tc.umn.edu
     Daniel Gidez             dgidez@netcom.com
     David E. Goggin          dt4%cs@hub.ucsb.edu
     Mirsad Hadzikadic        mirsad@mosaic.uncc.edu
     Mike Hatz                mhatz@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Paul Hodgkinson          phh@dmu.ac.uk
     Michael Holloway         mhollowa@ic.sunysb.edu
     Edward J. Huff           huff@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
     Michael A Johnston       maj%mdis1@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
     Barry T. Jones           barry@psy.gla.ac.uk
     V. "Juggy"Jagannathan    juggy@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu
     Antero Julkunen          julkunen@messi.uka.fi
     Roland Kaltefleiter      kaltef@theo-physik.uni-kiel.dbp.de
     Mark D. Kline            mdkline@mailbox.syr.edu
     Paul Knight              knight@hpindda.cup.hp.com
     Barry Krawchuck          bdk01@albnydh2
     Michelle Koblas          michelle.koblas@itek.norut.no
     Stu Labovitz             stu@valinor.mythical.com
     Stephen Lau              lau@ai.sri.com
     John R. Lewis            vetdsmdv@utkvt1.vet.utk.edu
     Allan Levy               a-levy@uiuc.edu
     Bob Lummis               lummis@alsys1.aecom.yu.edu
     Gary Malet               gmalet@surfer.win.net
     Will Marchany            marchant@cea.berkeley.edu
     Michael L. Marrin        marrin@mcmail.cis.McMaster.ca
     Duncan McRae             duncanm@tplrd.tpl.oz.au
     Robin Meter              rmeter@unmcvm
     J. Philip Miller         phil@wubios
     Richard Miller           rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
     Marc Moorcroft           @mail.uunet.ca:smarry@zooid
     Larry Nathanson          lan@panix.com
     David Nye                nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
     Eric J. Olson            ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu
     James O'Meara            jho02@albnydh2.bitnet
     Greg Parham              gparham@demeter.esusda.gov
     Michael Quinn            mjquinn@pucc.bitnet
     Kevin Ray                kpr03@albnydh2
     M.L. Rhoads              mlrhoads@ccit.arizona.edu
     Steve Robinson           ssrbh@cunyvm.cuny.edu
     Herman Rubin             hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
     Avraham Shir-el (Sherman) avraham@eruvin.jct.ac.il
     Elihu M. Schimmel        schimmel.elihu_m_dr@boston.va.gov
     Joanne Silverstein       jlsilver@mailbox.syr.edu
     Daniel Starr             starr-daniel@yale.edu
     M.J. Stoddard            stoddard@ccit.arizona.edu
     David Reeve Sward        sward+@cmu.edu
     Bruce Teeter             bruce@earth4.med.ge.com
     Patrick Tufts            zippy@berry.cs.brandeis.edu
     Goyta F. Villela         infomed@ccvax.unicamp.br
     Timothy VanFossen        timv@ccad.uiowa.edu
     John C. vom Lehn         vomlehn@macgw1.crd.ge.com
       Weindan                weindan@hws.bitnet
     Gregory Woodbury         wolves!ggw@duke.cs.duke.edu
     Bob Yazz  @orchard.la.locus.com:yazz@prodnet.la.locus.com

-- 
Donald F. Parsons MD, Wadsworth Ctr. Rm C273, NY State Dept of Health, ESP,
PO Box 509, Albany, NY 12201-0509. (518)474-7047 Fax: (518)474-7992 
UseNet: dfp10@csc.albany.edu; Internet: dfp10@uacsc2.albany.edu
Moderator: hspnet-l@albnydh2.bitnet (Consulting by hospital Networks)


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.iastate.edu!darcher Fri Mar  5 17:24:54 EST 1993
Article: 4827 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!news.iastate.edu!darcher
From: darcher@iastate.edu (David W Archer)
Subject: Re: rotational grazing
Message-ID: <C3C19L.MJK@news.iastate.edu>
Followup-To: misc.rural
Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <1993Mar2.140531.29251@hemlock.cray.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 21:34:30 GMT
Lines: 52

In article <1993Mar2.140531.29251@hemlock.cray.com> mlo@cray.com writes:

>We attended a 2-day 'rotational grazing' conference last week and now are
>hot to put some of these ideas into practice.

I helped my parents set up a rotational grazing system on their farm in
Montana in 1984.  One of the main benefits of the system is that it is
supposed to prevent both overgrazing and undergrazing, both of which tend
to deteriorate the quality of pasture.  The first five years after the system
was in place were drought years, so it was hard to see any immediate change
in pasture quality.  However, now that the system has been in place for
several years and there have been a few years of normal precipitation,
it is easy to see that pasture quality has improved.  There are thicker
stands of grass, and the more beneficial species are pushing out the nasties
such as cheat grass.  My parents are now planning to expand the rotational
grazing system to other pastures.

>	1)  A fairly cheap method to set up pads using single-strand
>	    electric fence.

We were able to use telephone line that the local telephone companies
had abbandoned when they switched from overhead to underground lines.
We strung the line on fiberglass posts, which were somewhat expensive but
were easy to set up.  (We put in about two miles of fence, so this was a
significant concern.)
>
>	2)  Though not strictly necessary, a method of getting water
>	    to each pad is desirable.  The instructor of the seminar
>	    uses 55-gallon plastic drums cut in half, with 3/4" PVC
>	    buried 3-4" in the ground to direct water to each pad.

We designed the pads to form a 'pie' around existing water tanks, so
four pads share one tank.  Like so:

                -------------
               |  \       /  |
               |   \     /   |<----fence
               |    \   /    |
               |     ( )<----+-- tank
               |    /   \    |
               |   /     \   |
               |  /       \  |
               --------------


Hope this helps.  Good Luck!

Dave
--
Dave Archer
Department of Ag. Economics
Iowa State University


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:25:43 EST 1993
Article: 4829 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Books (1 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:23:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 757
Message-ID: <1n5aecINN41i@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


150 Years of IHC
    C. H. Wendel
    (Available from Kings Books, P.O. Box 86, Radner, OH 43066)

    A history of International Harvester and the companies that made
    up IHC.  Also has serial number lists to date IHC
    tractors.

ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture, The
    A.I. Root

    "First published in 1877 and updated as needed.  This book is
    arranged as an encyclopedia.  I have a 1923 edition and a 1979
    edition.  It is fun to look at the differences.  Very important
    reference to have on the beekeeper bookshelf."  Donald Bowen

America's Neighborhood Bats
    Merlin Tuttle
    1988
    University of Texas Press
    PO box 7819
    Austin TX  78713

    The [WER (Winter 89)] review lists excerpts about making bat
    houses and explaining what appears to be a bat attack.

American Cider Book 
    Vrest Orton
    Farrar, Straus, & Giroux NY 1973

    He was a sexist bombast, but it's an informative, traditionalist
    book.

Amphibians and Reptiles of the Carolinas and Virginia
    B.S. Martof et al
    UNC Press, Chapel Hill, NC

Angora Goat Book and Guard Dogs
    Jean Ebeling
    Eakin Pulications, Inc.
    Austin, TX, 1983

    Written by Ranch Magazine columnist, somewhat oriented toward
    conditions in Texas.

Angora Goats the Northern Way
    Susan Black Drummond
    Freeport MI:
    Stony Lonesome Farm, 1985.

    Good overall info. especially on conditions in MI.

Art of Blacksmithing, The
    Alex Bealer
    Harper & Row 1984

    My constant reference for both tricks, designs, and history.

Back To Basics
    Reader's Digest 1986

    It's amazing how much is covered in the book, from livestock to
    barn building to blacksmithing &c.  It has enough to get you
    started on many rural pursuits. 

    A pretty good general, but superficial, reference.

    Another must-have. A series of how-to articles on things
    traditional from surveying and log-cabin-building (adobe too for
    you southwesterners) to sheep shearing and blacksmithing. Good
    recipes. Good pointers for additional information. This is the
    book to have around whenever you start thinking, ``Wonder if I
    ought to get a few geese for this place?''

Barns, Sheds, and Outbuildings
    Byron D. Halstead (Ed.)
    Stephen Green Press, MA 1981

    (Reprint of 1881) Includes good drawings of late 19th C barns,
    emphasizing efficient layout.

Beard on Bread

    "Seems pretty good to me, with the whole first chapter dedicated
    to getting that first loaf out.  It has a long troubleshooting
    section listing symptoms of what can go wrong and how you probably
    screwed up (uh.. I mean what you should do differently) to cause
    it.  The only fault I find is that it is sometimes hard to find
    the recipe you want." Donald Perley

Beginning Shepherd's Manual
    Barbara Smith
    Iowa State University, 1983

    "Useful information for both a small farm flock and a larger ranch
    flock.  Spiral bound so it stays open on the table.  The
    information on breeds and budgets betrays a midwest bias.  The
    drawings of good sheep and bad sheep are useful when you look for
    those first few grade ewes."  Ron Florence

Blue Book: The Guide to Home Canning and Freezing
    Edition 32, copyright 1989
    Ball Corporation
    Consumer Products Division
    Consumer Affairs
    345 South High Street
    Muncie, Indiana 47305-2326

    "...A very good guide not only to canning and freezing, but to
    pickling, making jams, jellies, preserves, and drying foods.  The
    price is very reasonable. Ball Corporation makes its money selling
    jars, lids, etc. and publishes the book to promote that business."
    Bill Mayne

Blue Mountain Buckskin
    Jim Riggs

    Processing animal hides.

Brown's Alcohol Motor Fuel Cookbook
    Desert Publications: Cornville, Arizona
    ISBN 0-87947-300-2

Builders of the Dawn
    Siris Publishing

    "This book has lots of useful info on [Cooperative/Intentional
    Communities] plus lists of groups and people to contact and such.
    I've also heard there is a video out now based on the book, but I
    don't have any details on it."  Ken Wood

Chickens in your Backyard -- A Beginner's Guide
    Rick & Gail Luttmann
    Rodale Press, Inc.
    Emmaus, Pa. 18049, 1976
    ISBN 0-87857-125-6

    Well organized, up to date how-to/reference.

    Appears to touch on a lot of aspects of raising chickens like
    feed, illnesses, predators, coops, clean-up, etc.  It's a
    paperback, and was less than 10 bucks including postage, I think.

Commercial Goat Farming
    Katie Thear
    1985

Complete Book of Raising Livestock and Poultry, The
    Thear & Fraser
    1980-1988
    Pan Books Ltd., Pan, Cavaye Place, London, SW10 9PG, UK.
    0-330-30158-6

    The how-to book of beasties for a small-holding.

Complete Book of Prefabs, Kits, and Manufactured Houses, The
    Fawcett Columbine (C) 1981
    ISBN 0-449-90051-7

Complete Book of Self-Sufficiency, The
    John Seymour
    1976-1989
    Corgi/Faber
    0-552-98051-X
    Transworld Publishers, 61 Uxbridge Road, Ealing, London, W5 5SA, UK.

    Excellent.  A must for any small farm or homestead.

Complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable, The
    (See: Ten Acres Enough)

Continuing the Good Life
    Schocken 1979
    (See: Maple Sugar Book, The)

Country Living: A Source Book of Projects and Friendly Advice
    Lewis & Nancy Hill
    Rodale Press.

Encyclopedia of American Farm Tractors
    C. H. Wendel
    (Available from Kings Books, P.O. Box 86, Radner, OH 43066)

Encyclopedia of American Gasoline Engines Since 1872
    C. H. Wendel
    (Available from Kings Books, P.O. Box 86, Radner, OH 43066)

    THE reference on old engines.  This book has over 21000
    illustrations showing almost every company to manufacture internal
    combustion engines in the US.
 
Endless Tracks In The Woods
    James Young and Jerry Budy
    (Available from Kings Books, P.O. Box 86, Radner, OH 43066)

    A history of the development of the crawler.  Has serial number
    lists so you can date that old crawler. 
 
Economic Feasibility of Raising Angora Goats in the Northeastern US, The
    Stephen Dahm
    1986
    Penn State Library

    Master's thesis.  You can get the thesis via interlibrary loan.
    It's not too econ-techy, mostly pretty understandable.  Good
    overview of issues, lots of references.

Enchanted Brocolli Forestm
    Mollie Katzan

    "Has a breadmaking comic strip in it, which shows all the steps
    involved in the method she employs."  Katy Kislitzin

FARM, A Year in the Life of an American Farm
    Richard Rhodes

    "Its a great book."  Tom McNeal

Farm Animal Coloring Book
    (See: Ten Acres Enough)

Farm Fever: How to Buy Country Land and Farm It--Part Time or Full Time
    Jerry Baker and Dan Kibbie
    Funk & Wagnalls, 1977,
    ISBN 0-308-10299-1

    Full of excellent information about how to buy land and get
    started in farming, including addresses of various organizations
    and contacts.  Unfortunately, it's written in an dated and
    somewhat obnoxious style--lot's of exclamation marks! and hokey
    `my grandma Foobar always used to say...'s. 

Farmer's Tax Guide
    IRS Publication 225

Farmstead Book 1
    Paul Harmond (Ed.)
    Cloudburst, Seattle 1978

    Useful treatment of soil management and forage crops.  Also the
    farm shop and the woodlot.  There is no Farmstead Book 2!

First Person Rural
    Noel Perrin
    Penguin Books 1978

    (also the sequels _Second Person Rural_, 1980, and _Third Person
    Rural_, 1983)

    Brief, thoughtful essays about manure, sheep, maple sugaring,
    firewood, and such by a Vermont farmer who also happens to be a
    Dartmouth professor.  Often _Yankee Magazine_-type stuff aimed
    toward rural-wannabes and confused urbanites, but a good
    introduction to what one can expect to encounter as part of
    escaping the cities and 'burbs.

Five Acres and Independence
    M. G. Kains
    Greenberg Publishers 1935

    How to make a very small farm pay for itself. Amazingly un-dated
    advice, even after fifty-five years. Get one, if you can. 

Forest Management
    U of Oregon/Corvalis
    ~$40

    "...A binder full of 'application notes' about 'Forest Management'
    including health, thinning, harvest, planning, measurement, road
    building, insect control, felling technique, and just about
    everything you could want to know."  Jim Gurley

Foxfire series

    They are available at the B. Dalton's bookstore chain.  As a
    series of interviews and how-to demonstrations by hillfolk, they
    are a valuable source for persons rediscovering problems of rural
    life.

Freshwater Aquaculture Book - A Handbook for Small Scale Fish Culture
in North America
    William McLarney
    ISBN 0-88179-018-4

    "This is still in print - and if you just want to look at this,
    your library can probably get it through a interlibrary loan."
    Bob Kyweriga

Garden Way Publishing Bulletins
    Storey/Garden Way
    Schoolhouse Road
    Pownal, VT 05261
    800-827-8673

    Roughly 100 32-page booklets on various gardening, DIY/crafts,
    livestock, cooking/preserving, energy, etc.  List for $2 each.  I
    have _Eggs and Chickens_, by John Vivian (see Practical Guide) and
    _Baking with Sourdough_, don't remember author.  Both are very
    good.  The sourdough book has dozens of recipes, I particularly
    liked the pretzels. 

    In addition to lots of neat books, they also publish an odd
    series, "Country Wisdom Bulletins".  They're a dollar each, 32pp
    long, and focus on one topie or another:  "Building and Using Cold
    Frames", "Axes & Chainsaws", "Build a Smokehouse", "Buying country
    Land", "The Best Fences", etc, etc, tect [there are over a hundred
    of 'em.  I have a dozen or so].

Getting Started in Farming on a Small Scale
    USDA Agriculture Information Bulletin Number 451.

Gift of Good Land, The
    Wendell Berry 
    North Point Press
    San Francisco 1981

Goat Cheese
    Mont-Laurier Benedictine Nuns
    New England Cheesemaking Supply Company
    P.O. Box 85
    Ashfield, Mass 01330
    ISBN 0-9607404-1-4

    "I won it in a raffle at a goat show (where else?) and haven't
    used it much, but it looks good.  You can also get a list of other
    books on cheesemaking and a catalog of cheesemaking supplies from
    them."  Roberta Taylor

Goat Farming
    Alan Mowlem
    1988

Goat Husbandry
    David Mackenzie

    I don't know if it's still in print, but I was fortunate enough to
    obtain a copy at a rummage sale.

Grass Farming
    M.McG. Cooper & David W. Morris
    Farming Press Ltd., 1983

    "When you realize that raising sheep really is ``grass farming,''
    this is the book for pasture and forage management.  The seed
    varieties they recommend are British, and the haymaking techniques
    went out of style thirty-years ago, but there is some superb
    information on developing and improving pastures and hayfields."
    Ron Florence

Greener Pastures on Your Side of the Fence
    Bill Murphy

Harnessing Water Power for Home Energy
    Dermot McGuigan
    Garden Way Publishing, Pownal, Vermont 05261
    Paperback, 100 pages, 1978
    ISBN 0-88266-115-9

    The book describes how to determine how much power you have:
    measuring flow and head and the mechanics of turning the water
    into useful energy.  There are chapters on water-wheels, pelton
    wheels, turgo wheels, cross-flow turbines, francis turbine and on
    lots of other little details (like building a dam).  There are
    lots of manufacturer's addresses included in the text.  

Have-More Plan, The
    Ed and Carolyn Robinson
    Garden Way/Storey

    This book is worth owning just for the comic effect.  Leave it on
    your coffee table and watch your guests.  It's a blast from the
    past.  As with 5 Acres, though, the information is fairly timeless
    if you can suffer the presentation.  It contains lots of 1-2 page
    entries on beekeeping, rabbit/chicken raising, orcharding, etc.

Hive and the Honey Bee, The
    Dadant

    "First published in the late 1800's and updated periodically.
    This book is arranged as a series of articles on all aspects of
    beekeeping.  This is the next book to have after the Root book."
    Donald Bowen

Home Aquaculture - A Guide to Backyard Fish Farming
    Steven D. VanGorden
    Douglas J. Strange
    Rodale Press
    ISBN 0-87857-472-7

    A guide to small tank culture.

    Maybe available from Rodale Press; otherwise maybe available from

	Steven Van Gorden
	PO Box 109
	Breinigville  PA  18031

How to Design an Independant Power System
    (out of print)
    Terrance D. Paul
    Best Energy Systems for Tomorrow, Inc.
    P.O. Box 280
    Necedah  WI  54646

    If you can find someone who has a copy, hound them until you can
    borrow it. 

    "Best book on the subject I have ever seen."  Rob Kleinschmidt

Integral Urban House Self Reliant Living In The City, The
    Helga Olkowski, Bill Olkowski, Tom Javits and the Farallones
    Institute Staff
    ISBN: 0-87156-213-8
    Sierra Club Books

    Available via mail-order from Sierra Club bookstores.  It's about
    500 pages (8.5 x 11) and has a good bibliography

John Deere Tractors and Equipment
    Don Macmillian
    (Available from Kings Books, P.O. Box 86, Radner, OH 43066)

    General source of JD information.

Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book

    "A very good book, but a bit dogmatic and intimidating, IMHO.
    Lots of Q & A sections and takes you through all the steps from
    the perspective of never having done this before.  The method is
    at variance with many other cookbooks, though; she explains that
    her method has been specifically developed to work with 100% whole
    grain flours, which require different treatment than breads that
    include white/unbleached flour."  Katy Kislitzin

Life after the City
    Charles Long
    1989
    Camden House, 7 Queen Victoria Rd, Camden East, Ontario, K0K 1J0,
    CANADA
    0-920656-14-5

    Practical book.  Covers US as well as Canada

    "...It's more about lifestyles and deciding if you want to go or
    not and if so how far."

Living on a Few Acres
    USDA Yearbook of Agriculture, 1978

    Should be available free from your conresscritter.  A collection
    of short articles on different aspects of "Living on a Few Acres".
    From how to find a place, to what to do with it, etc [e.g., "Dairy
    Goats Require Lots of Care Just to Brak Even"; "think twice about
    risks of horse rental business",  "land improvements --- what you
    need to know", "Ready to face the realities of small-scale
    farming?"]

Living on Less
    Editors of the Mother Earth News
    Mother Earth News Books

    Scores of 2-5 pagers on such topics as housing, homesteading,
    gardening, canning, foraging, livestock, energy, clothing,
    recreation, etc.  Lots of good DIY info that doesn't assume you
    were born in a log cabin or raised by wolves. 

Living the Good Life
    Schocken 1970
    (See: Maple Sugar Book, The)

Malabar Farm
    Harper & Bros. 1948(?)
    (See: Pleasant Valley)

Maple Sugar Book, The
    H. & S. Nearing
    Schocken Books 1950

    I think the FBI used to put your name on file if you ordered
    these.  Maybe they still do. In any case, Scott Nearing (who had
    run as a Socialist against Fiorello LaGuardia in the NY mayoral
    race) and his wife Helen started the back-to-the-land movement in
    the '30s, when they set up a self-sufficient farm in Vermont. They
    continued for another half-century, later moving to Maine when the
    ski industry started ruining the neighborhood. Good scholarship,
    with numerous obscure quotes and references going back hundreds of
    years; rather dated politics; lots of blaming meat-eating for most
    of mankind's physical and moral infirmities. Probably a more
    primitive lifestyle than most of us could stand for long, but true
    classics. I especially recommend the first, which combines a
    history of maple sugaring with in-depth technical information.

Nebraska Tractor Tests Since 1920
    C. H. Wendel
    Kings Books
    P.O. Box 86
    Radner, Ohio 43066
 
    The Nebraska tractor tests are an important tool in comparing
    tractors and any farm tractor sold in Nebraska must be put through
    these tests.  The tests are still being conducted.  This book
    gives the important data for each test from 1920 through 1984.  If
    you are concerned about the size, power, weight, economy of a
    tractor, it is here.  For example the tractors tested in 1978
    range from the small 1940 lb. Kubota L-185 to the large 47370 lb.
    Stieger ST-450.

New Industry, or Raising the Angora Goat, and Mohair, for Profit, A
    William L. Black
    Keystone Printing Co.
    Fort Worth, TX 1900. (yes, 1900)

    An oldie, but goodie.  Great perspective on the way things were,
    and the way they could be.

New Organic Grower, The
    (See: Ten Acres Enough)

North American Dairy Sheep Symposium
    University of Minnesota
    St. Paul Minnesota
    July 25-28, 1989
    edited by W.J. Boylan

North American Directory of Exotic Animal & Bird Owners
    1990 edition
    Skaar Rtc.
    Box 4028
    Sidney, MT 59270

People's Workbook
    Environment and Development Agency
    P.O. Box 322
    Newtown
    2113
    South Africa

    "Contains a lot of information useful to people interested in Self
    Sufficiency.  While much of it is directed towards the Southern
    African situation, it may be of use."  Henk Coetzee

Pleasant Valley
    L. Bromfield
    Harper & Bros. 1943

    Not sure if these are in print right now, but you should be able
    to get them from used book stores. Politically far more
    conservative than the Nearings, novelist Louis Bromfield takes all
    his book royalties and puts together a huge Ohio farm. The
    money's-no-object bit can get tedious at times (not to mention the
    thousands of words in praise of Boxers), but these were the first
    really-widely-read books against reliance on chemical fertilizers
    and toward composting, erosion control, and protecting farmland
    from development by selling the rights to conservancy trusts or
    foundations. 

Practical Blacksmithing
    M.T. Richardson (Ed.)
    Weathervane 1978

    (reprint of 4 volume 1889-91) compendium of 19thC journal
    articles; jumbled, but fun.

Practical Guide to Homesteading, The
    John Vivian

    I'd consider this a must-read, if not a must-have, for wannabes.
    Vivian takes the reader through a typical year on his homestead.
    Full of practical (hence the title) advice, the kind of thing you
    learn usually by blowing it the first time around. 

Practical Guide to Successful Farming
    Wallace S. Moreland (Ed.)
    Halcyon House 1943

    Excellent reference for practical, low-budget farming.  From
    Rutgers Ag professors, it can be found in used book shops.  (I
    bought one for $3, then my mom gave me the one she had given her
    father in 1943.  It's a pleasure to read from the pages thumbed by
    the man who got me interested in farming.)

Practical Sheep Dairying: The Care and Milking of the Dairy Ewe
    Olivia Mills
    Wellingborough, Northhamptonshire
    Thorsons, 1989

Production and Marketing of Sheep in New England, The
    Sheep Bulletin, No. 66, (December 1975)

    "Excellent for a thin phamphlet.  Information on everything from
    feeder design to rations to veterinary questions.   You can
    probably get a copy from your County Extension Office anywhere in
    New England."  Ron Florence

Profitable Sheep Farming
    M.McG. Cooper & R.J. Thomas
    Farming Press Ltd., 1983

    "Interesting, if only for the vocabulary lessons, which will teach
    you the proper management of your ``tups'' and ``leys.''  With
    some modifications, what works in England or New Zealand also
    works in New England or Idaho."  Ron Florence

Raising Goats for Milk and Meat
    Rosalee Sinn
    1987

Raising Milk Goats Successfully
    Gail Luttmann
    Williamson, Charlotte, VT 1986

    Well organized, up to date how-to/reference.

Raising Poultry the Modern Way
    Lenonard S. Mercia
    A Garden Way Publishing Book
    Storey Communications, Inc.
    Pownal, Vermont 05261, 1983
    ISBN 0-88266-058-6

Raising Sheep the Modern Way
    Paula Simmons
    Garden Way, 1976

    Well organized, up to date how-to/reference.

    "Raising sheep the old-fashioned way.  There are some good hints,
    like using lime to harden up a muddy barnyard, but much of the
    advice here, especially on pharmaceuticals, is out-of-date."  Ron
    Florence

Recipes for a Small Planet
    Frances Moore Lappe

    "Gives a detailed description of the bread baking process along
    with a basic recipe for a whole-wheat/soy bread.  I learned to
    bake bread from this book and it worked right the first time."
    Cory Morse

Secrets of the Still
    Grace Firth
    EPM Pub McClean VA 1983

    She's a great writer, this is worth reading even if you don't
    drink!  This plus Foxfire are all you need to know about making
    spirits. 

Sheep Book, The
    Ron Parker
    Scribner, 1983; Ballantine, 1984

    "My copy is dog-eared from continuous use.  Parker did not grow up
    on a farm -- he was a professor of geology at UCLA before starting
    a sheep farm in Minnesota -- so he takes the time to write about
    subjects that are second-nature to those who grew up around sheep.
    This is the place to look for information on fences, feeders,
    dogs, and a dozen other topics, as well as a single useful
    reference on sheep.  Some of the vaccination and worming
    information is a little out of date (with Ivomec approved for
    sheep, it is no longer necessary to use horse wormers), but Parker
    is worth reading from cover to cover."  Ron Florence

Sheep Raisers' Manual
    Bill Kruesi

    "For the medium-sized (in New England, large) flock.  Especially
    good on pasture management and techniques and equipment for
    controlling and confining sheep."  Ron Florence

Shepherd's Guidebook, The
    Margaret Bradbury

SID Sheep Production Handbook
    Sheep Industry Development Program, 1988

    "Biblical in its scope and size, but more useful to the large
    ranch producer than to a small farm flock.  There's a lot of good
    information in there, but when you need an answer quickly, you are
    more likely to find it elsewhere."  Ron Florence

Small Scale Grain Raising
    Gene Logsdon
    Rodale 1977

    This will convince you that you don't need a lot of land to grow
    your own wheat, barley or oats.  Very practical for small
    holdings.

Small Scale Poultry Keeping
    (See: Ten Acres Enough)

Starting Right With Bees

    "The best selling beginner's book on the market tells you what you
    need and how to get started."  Donald Bowen

Symposium sur la traite mecanique des petits ruminants
    Millau, France
    7-11 mai 1973
    Paris: Institut national de la recherche agronomique, 1974
    Annales de zootechnie; no. hors serie, 1974
    [undoubtedly out of print]

Ten Acres Enough
    Small Farmers Journal
    P. O. Box 2805, Eugene, Or 97402

    A fine source of readable material on how to do many of the things
    that we as a culture have forgotten and mislaid in our rush to
    yuppiedom.

Textbook of Fish Culture: Breeding and Cultivation of Fish
    Marcel Huet
    Eyre & Spottiswoode Ltd at Thanet Press
    Margate, UK
    1971
    ISBN  o/85238/020/8

    "Best book I have found on aquaculture.  Has special sections on
    carp, pike, trout, perch, catfish, eels.  And sections of building
    dams, feeding, and the usual."  Arnold Chamove

Three Acres and Liberty
    Bolton Hall
    MacMillan Co NY 1918

TV Vet Sheep Book, The
    Farming Press Ltd., 1972, later editions

    "Despite the title, perhaps the best book on recognizing and
    treating what goes wrong.  The vocabulary is British; the
    excellent advice is universal.  The photographs and the
    organization make the book especially useful when you see that
    something is awry with a ewe or a lamb and don't have time to
    undertake a research program in badly organized books." Ron
    Florence

University of Guelph
    Division of Independant Studies
    Agriculture and Horticulture programs
    South House
    Ontario, N1G 2W1, CANADA

    Extensive video collection for sale as well as ag and hort
    diplomas.

Veterinary Guide for Animal Owners
    C.E. Spaulding
    Rodale Press 1976

    Very handy reference for most livestock (except children)

-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:26:19 EST 1993
Article: 4830 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Homes (2 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:24:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 127
Message-ID: <1n5afaINN42l@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Dome Homes

    Monterey Domes
    Riverside, CA
    
    Dome Creations
    Las Vegas, NV
    
    The Big Outdoors People
    26600 Fallbrook Ave.
    Wyoming Industrial Park
    Wyoming, MN 55092
    612-462-1011
    
    Catherdralite Domes
    820 Bay Ave, Suite 302
    Capitola, CA 95010
    408-0462-2210
    
    Domes America, Inc.
    6 S. 771 Western Ave
    Clarendon Hills, IL 60514
    800-323-5548
    
    Domes and Homes, Inc.
    PO Box 365
    Brielle, NJ 08730
    215-825-8290
    
    Dome Home Systems, Inc.
    Route 2, Box 247A
    Reedsburg, WI 53959
    608-524-4555
    
    Free Space Geodesics
    7094 N. Harrison Ave, Suite 165
    Pinedale, CA 93650
    209-431-8670
    
    Geodesic Domes, Inc.
    10290 Davison Rd.
    Davison, MI
    313-653-2383
    
    Polydome
    3020 North Park Way
    San Diego, CA 92104
    714-574-1400
    
    Synapse Domes
    PO Box 554
    Lander, WY 82520
    307-332-5773, -4117
    
    Timberline Geodesics
    2015 Blake St.
    Berkeley, CA 94704
    415-849-4481
    
Timberframe Homes

    Lindal Cedar Homes
    Seattle, WA
    
    PO Box 24426
    Seattle, WA 98124
    206-725-0900

    Deck House
    930 Main St.
    Acton, MA 01720
    617-259-9450
    
    Sawmill River Post & Beam, Inc.
    PO Box 227
    Leverett, MA 01054
    413-367-9969
    
    Timberpeg
    PO Box 579
    Woodstock, NY 12498
    914-679-7322
    
    The Barn People
    Box 4
    South Woodstock, VT 05071
    802-457-3943
    
    David Howard, Inc.
    PO Box 295
    Alstead, NH 03602
    603-835-6356
    
    Green Mountain Homes
    Waterman Rd.
    Royalton, VT 05068
    802-763-8384
    
    Habitat (Eastern U.S. only)
    123 Elm St.
    Deerfield, MA 01373
    413-665-4006
    
    Haida Hide, Inc.
    19237 Aurora Ave. N.
    Seattle, WA 98133
    206-546-4183
    
    New England-Techbuilt
    585 State Rd.
    North Dartmouth, MA 02747
    617-993-9944
    
    Timber Kit
    PO Box 704
    Amherst, MA 01002
    413-665-2210
    
    Yankee Barn Homes, Inc.
    Star Route 3, Box 2
    Grantham, NH 03753
    603-863-4545
-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:26:50 EST 1993
Article: 4831 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Magazines (3 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:25:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 297
Message-ID: <1n5ahlINN476@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


9N-2N-8N Newsletter, The
    154 Blackwood Lane 
    Stamford, CT  06903 
 
    "From the sample newsletter I have, it appears to be well done
    newsletter with a lot of information.  If anyone is contemplating
    using or restoring a 9N, 2N, 8N, or 8NAN, this would be a good
    place to spend $12.  They also have a large collection of shop
    manuals and other books for the Fords."  Donald Bowen

American Bee Journal
    Hamilton, IL  62341
    (217) 847-3324
 
    "Very technical for the professional beekeeper and scholar.
    Trying to include more for the hobbyist."  Donald Bowen

Angora and Milk Goat Journal
    Portland, Ore

Antique Power
    P.O. Box 838
    Yellow Springs, OH 45387
 
    Magazine about restoring old tractors.  Good source of information
    about parts and techniques.  Also names and addresses of single
    make clubs.

Angora Goat Quarterly 
    Michigan, address unknown

Aquaculture Magazine
    704-254-7334

    "A good source of advertisements from U.S. equipment suppliers.
    They have a reader response card you can send in for information
    from any of their advertisers.  It costs $21 / year for 6 issues
    sent to Canada (less I think for the U.S.).  There is also a
    yearly buyer's guide for $15."  Robert Enenkel

Back Home
    P.O. Box 370
    Mountain Home, NC 28758
    (704) 696-3838

    $16/year, $28/2 years; Visa, Mastercard, check

    Much of the former staff of Mother, still in North Carolina, has now
    banded together into a coop and has created a new magazine, BackHome.
    Its motto is "Hands-on and Down-to-Earth".
    
    It's great!  Especially the article on how to split wood without
    ruining your back.  And the car emergency kit.  And the inspiring
    youth garden to help feed the disadvantaged.  Look for it.  It
    comes out four times a year, on recycled paper.  (I didn't know
    that you could get such nice-feeling, good-printing recycled
    paper--I thought it was all limp grey stuff.) 

Backwoods

    "Very good "how to" journal. Didn't renew when price jumped from
    $6 to $20- something."  Steve Buchele

Coping with Turbulent Times
    For a free preliminary issue, send a long, stamped addressed
    envelope to:
        Coping with Turbulent Times
        c/o III
        Box 4630 SFA Sta.
        Nacogdoches, TX  75962
    Or send your U.S. mail address to me (INTERNET:
    F_GRIFFITH@ccsvax.sfasu.edu) and I'll have a copy sent to you.  

Country
    These are basically picture books (with some really nice
    pictures), but they won't help you with your garden, tractor, etc.

Country Journal
    P.O. Box 392
    Mt. Morris, IL 61054-9957
    (800) 435-9610 or (815) 734-6309 in Illinois

    Not sure what the current rate is.

    Like Harrowsmith.  Also recommended.
    
Countryside & Small Stock Journal
    W8333 Doepke Rd,
    Waterloo, Wi.  53594
      or
    N2601 Winter Sports Rd
    Withee, WI 54498
    
    Published bi-monthly for $18/yr

    This rag contains a wealth of information for both the novice
    "would be" and the seasoned "back to the lander".  Write for a
    sample copy. 

    This magazine deals mainly with "homesteading" issues.  Written by
    the publishers but mainly by the readers.  Lots of gardening,
    livestock.  Minimal advertising. 

    "Too folksy, very very little science, lots of factlets."  Steve
    Buchele 

Dairy Goat Journal
    Upper Darby, PA

Engineers and Engines
    1118 N. Raynor Avenue
    Joliet, IL, 60435
 
    Magazine about antique gas and steam engines and tractors.  Good
    source of information about shows all over the country.
 
Farm and Ranch Living
    5400 S. 60th. St.
    Greendale, WI 53129

Gas Engine Magazine
    P.O. Box 328
    Lancaster, PA 17603
 
    Magazine about antique gas engines and tractors.  Good information
    about sources and techniques for restoring antique engines.
 
Gleanings in Bee Culture
    623 W. Liberty Street
    Medina, OH 44256
    216-725-6677

    "Aimed more to the smaller beekeeper and hobbyist.  Good solid
    usable articles."  Donald Bowen

Goats & Ewes Newsletter
    Federation Internationale de Laiterie
    Vergote 41, B-1040
    Belgium

Harrowsmith
    7 Queen Victoria Road
    Camden East, Ontario K0K 1J0

Harrowsmith Country Life
    Camden House Publishing.
    Ferry Road
    Charlotte, Vt 05445
    800-627-7009

    It's published six times per year (bimonthly) for $24/yr
    ($6/yr additional outside the U.S.).  The October '90 issue had
    a $12/yr subscription offer.

    Harrowsmith is a good mix of agriculture/gardening and
    miscellaneous "country" topics with a common thread of
    environmental concern.

    "Photography and writing are a class above all other magizines in
    this class."  Steve Buchele
    
Home Power Magazine
    POB 130
    Hornbrook, CA 96044-0130

    Bimonthly for $10/yr (3rd class mail)

    Solar PV, wind, water, &c.

    Printed on newsprint-stock using (they claim) only renewable
    energy.
    
    It's worth it for the ads alone (seems like anybody who's in the
    alternative energy trade advertises there).  The case studies
    (REAL peoples' REAL systems) are also very informative, usually
    with very thorough technical and economic analyses.

    "An excellent source of hands-on tips, real-world experience,
    product evaluations, etc, for alternate energy lifestyles."
    joel@jach.hawaii.edu

Mother Earth News
    P.O. Box 3122
    Harlan, IA  51593-2188

    Regularly $18/yr (6 issues)

    "The Original Country Magazine"  Similar to H & CJ, but something
    about it rubs me the wrong way.  It has kind of a hippyish, flower
    child feel to it.  One should buy an issue and make their own
    decision, though.

    "The reborn M.E.N. is better than the slick one, but still not up
    to the 70s M.E.N."  Steve Buchele
    
Missouri Farm
    RT 1
    3903 W. Ridge Trail Rd.
    Clark, MO 65243
    314-687-3525

National Gardening Association

    "Tied for best gardening [magazine].  Best information source for
    new technology."  Steve Buchele

Natural Farmer
    (through NOFA)
    RFD#2
    Barre, MA 01005

    Comes with NOFA membership.

New England Farm Bulletin
    Box 147
    Cohasset MA 02025

    Not slick, though quite literary. Good classified ads and events
    listings, with heavy Massachusetts emphasis. 

New Farm
    Rodale Press
    33 E. Minor St.
    Emmaus, PA 18098

    "Too preachy about organic methods working on a large scale.
    Don't really trust the writers, nor the source."  Steve Buchele

New Zealand Journal of Agriculture
    New Zealand, address unknown

Organic Gardening
    Published by Rodale Press, address unknown

Progressive Farmer
    no further details

Ranch Magazine
    Texas, address unknown

Red Power
    Box 277
    Battle Creek, IA 51006
 
    Magazine for International Harvester collectors and enthusiasts.
    Good source for parts and information on the IHC collectors
    club.

Rural Heritage
    P.O. Box 516
    Albia, IA 52531
    (515) 932-5084

Small Farmer's Journal 
    POB 2905
    Eugene, OR 97402

    A voice of sustainable agriculture (as opposed to agribusiness).
    Especially oriented toward draft animals.  Good reading, restores
    faith in the future of agrarian lifestyles.

    This publication is mostly oriented towards old fashoned organic
    type farming but I've found it very useful.
    
    A quarterly that carries extensive articles about various aspects
    of owning and operating a small farm, as well as a lot of
    editorials and reader letters.

Successful Farming
    1716 Locust St.
    Des Moines, IA 50336

United Caprine News
    PO Drawer A
    Rotan, TX 79546

    $15/yr

    Packed with useful information and Linda Fink's humor column.

Utne Reader
    Subscriber Services
    P.O. Box 1974
    Marion, OH  43306-2074

    UR comes out once every two months.  The subscription price is $24
    in the US, $29 for Canada and Mexico, and $34 dollars elsewhere
    (these are all in US dollars).  The newstand price is $4 US.

    I recommend buying a copy on the newstand to peruse and getting
    one of the ubiquitous subscriber discount cards out of it.
    They'll save you 25% off the newstand price.
-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:27:15 EST 1993
Article: 4832 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Miscellaneous (4 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:26:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <1n5aj7INN483@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Guard Dogs
    The people who know the most about guard dogs in the U.S. are Ray
    and Lorna Coppinger, New England Farm Center, Hampshire College,
    Amherst, MA 01002, phone (413) 253-7065.
    
    The other major source of Guard Dog info is the USDA Sheep
    Experiment Station, Dubois, Idaho 83423. Both places have
    inexpensive and/or free bulletins about guard dogs.
    
    The only feature I've done on guard dogs was for the Spring 1988
    Edition of Small Farmer's Journal. Copies of the article are
    available from SFJ, PO Box 2805, Eugene, OR 97402, for $1,
    (includes postage and handling). Specify "The Ultimate Predator
    Control", by Linda Fink, p. 29, Spring, Vol. 12, No. 2.
    
County Agents    
    The Agent has lots of federal and state publications, and knows a
    heck of a lot about agriculture in the local area.

    A very good resource is the County Cooperative Extension Office.
    They have a lot of good information on growing crops, raising beef
    cattle, etc.

    This office was set up to service rural areas and the 4H program
    is usually under their supervision, but they offer all kinds of
    various and interesting workshops, pamphlets on insect and weed
    control, cultivation tips, etc.
    
The Feed Store

Local Soil and Water Conservation Office
    A great place to get really nice CHEAP seedling trees, info on all
    aspects of your areas soil and water.  I contacted them for
    information on No-till farming since a visiting Chinese economics
    professor expressed an interest.  So now the literature is on it's
    way to CHINA!!

Monticello (Thos. Jefferson's home)
    (804) 295-8181

    "Have done extyensive research and preservation of antique
    apples."  Donald Bowen

AQUA-L
    Aquaculture mailing list.

    Listname:   AQUA-L
    Listserver (Internet): LISTSERV@vm.uoguelph.ca or
		LISTSERV%VM.UoGuelph.CA@VM1.NoDak.EDU
    Listserver (Bitnet):   LISTSERV@UOGUELPH
    Moderator: T. B. (Ted) White

BEE-L
    Beekeeping mailing list.

    "There is a listserv for persons interested in bee biology and
    practical bee keeping.  To subscribe to the list send an e-mail
    message to

    LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.bitnet

    no subject line, and the text should read:  

    SUBSCRIBE BEE-L your name

    Bee keepers and scientists from several countries participate in
    the list, and some extension agencies post regularly."  Gene
    Spears

-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:27:48 EST 1993
Article: 4833 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Organizations (5 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:35:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <1n5b3rINN4s1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


American Dairy Goat Assocation (ADGA)
    POB 865 (or 862?)
    Spindale, NC 28160

    A registry.

American Minor Breeds Conservancy
    Box 477
    Pittsboro, NC 27312
    (919) 542-5704

    "They maintain a directory of minor breeds - who breeds them, etc.
    They can probably direct you to a breed association list if not
    directly to a breeder."  Heather Hubbard

Early Day Gas Engine & Tractor Association
    Jack Versteeg, President
    3510 Brooklake Rd. NE
    Brooks, OR 93654
 
    There are currently 34 branches of this organization so there is
    most likely one near you.  They all have shows and are a great
    source of information about farming and things mechanical.  Most
    shows have demonstrations of rural life in days gone by.

IHC Collectors Club
    RR 2 Box 286
    Winamac, IN	46996
    (219) 278-7277

International Texas Longhorn Association
    307 Neches Street
    Austin, TX  78701
    512 472 8009

National Lyme Community Research Initiative
    17 Monroe Avenue
    Staten Island, NY 10301
    (718) 273-3740
    
    Membership is $20 for individuals, $30 for health care providers,
    and includes a monthly newletter.

Natural Organic Farmer's Association (NOFA)
    RFD#2
    Barre, MA 01005

    Northeastern states chapters, establishing standards for organic
    farm certification, buying guides, &c. 

North American Dairy Sheep Association
    Rt.3 Box 10
    Hinckly, MN  55037
    (612) 384-6612

Organic Growers of Michigan
    Ann Arbor Chapter
    Gwen Gunther
    (313) 426-3066

Texas Longhorn Breeders Association of America
    PO Box 4430
    Fort Worth, TX  76164
    817 625 6241
-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:28:13 EST 1993
Article: 4832 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Miscellaneous (4 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:26:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <1n5aj7INN483@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Guard Dogs
    The people who know the most about guard dogs in the U.S. are Ray
    and Lorna Coppinger, New England Farm Center, Hampshire College,
    Amherst, MA 01002, phone (413) 253-7065.
    
    The other major source of Guard Dog info is the USDA Sheep
    Experiment Station, Dubois, Idaho 83423. Both places have
    inexpensive and/or free bulletins about guard dogs.
    
    The only feature I've done on guard dogs was for the Spring 1988
    Edition of Small Farmer's Journal. Copies of the article are
    available from SFJ, PO Box 2805, Eugene, OR 97402, for $1,
    (includes postage and handling). Specify "The Ultimate Predator
    Control", by Linda Fink, p. 29, Spring, Vol. 12, No. 2.
    
County Agents    
    The Agent has lots of federal and state publications, and knows a
    heck of a lot about agriculture in the local area.

    A very good resource is the County Cooperative Extension Office.
    They have a lot of good information on growing crops, raising beef
    cattle, etc.

    This office was set up to service rural areas and the 4H program
    is usually under their supervision, but they offer all kinds of
    various and interesting workshops, pamphlets on insect and weed
    control, cultivation tips, etc.
    
The Feed Store

Local Soil and Water Conservation Office
    A great place to get really nice CHEAP seedling trees, info on all
    aspects of your areas soil and water.  I contacted them for
    information on No-till farming since a visiting Chinese economics
    professor expressed an interest.  So now the literature is on it's
    way to CHINA!!

Monticello (Thos. Jefferson's home)
    (804) 295-8181

    "Have done extyensive research and preservation of antique
    apples."  Donald Bowen

AQUA-L
    Aquaculture mailing list.

    Listname:   AQUA-L
    Listserver (Internet): LISTSERV@vm.uoguelph.ca or
		LISTSERV%VM.UoGuelph.CA@VM1.NoDak.EDU
    Listserver (Bitnet):   LISTSERV@UOGUELPH
    Moderator: T. B. (Ted) White

BEE-L
    Beekeeping mailing list.

    "There is a listserv for persons interested in bee biology and
    practical bee keeping.  To subscribe to the list send an e-mail
    message to

    LISTSERV@ALBNYVM1.bitnet

    no subject line, and the text should read:  

    SUBSCRIBE BEE-L your name

    Bee keepers and scientists from several countries participate in
    the list, and some extension agencies post regularly."  Gene
    Spears

-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603 Fri Mar  5 17:28:26 EST 1993
Article: 4834 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!cf603
From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Rural Sources: Suppliers (6 of 6)
Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:35:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Lines: 368
Message-ID: <1n5b4oINN4t0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


A.I. Root Company
    P.O. Box 706
    Medina, Ohio 44258
    1-800 BUY ROOT (1-800-289-7668)

    Beekeeping supplies.

A.M. Leonard, Inc.
    6665 Spiker Road
    PO Box 816
    Piqua, Ohio 45356

    "Good prices, fast service on nursery supplies."  Dave Sill

Alternate Energy Engineering
    PO Box 339
    Redway, Ca 95560
    800-777-6609

Argent
    1-800-426-6258 (US)
    1-800-663-2871 (Canada)

    "Ask for their free catalogue and their book catalogue.  They have
    aquaculture chemicals and equipment, and an extensive selection of
    books."  Robert Enenkel

Austree, Inc
    Pescadero, CA
    1-800-638-1441

    Fast-growing hybrid trees.

Bailey's, Inc.
    44650 Hwy. 101, Box 550
    Laytonville, CA 95454
    Ph: 707-984-6133
    Orders: 800-322-4539

    "They've got lots of serious stuff for those who cut wood.  They
    do seem to be reasonably priced."  Dave Sill

Burden's Surplus Center
    Nebraska
    1-800-488-3407

    "...Ask for a catalogue.  They have lots of 12 V pumps of various
    types, as well as lots of other neat stuff rural types might like.
    Best of all, they have good prices.  I ordered a nice 15 hp
    centrifugal pump for around $100 and am really happy with it.

    They have a 20 kW diesel generator set for $4250, 1.5 kW gas
    generator for $425, 1 kW inverter for $500."  Robert Enenkel

Caprine Supply
    POB Y
    33001 West 83rd Street
    DeSoto, KS 66018
    913/585-1191

    Good selection of goat equipment.

Central Tractor
    POB 3330
    Des Moines, Iowa 50316-3330
    (store in Quakertown PA: 215/538-2494)
    tractor parts - used: 1-800-247-0128, fax 515-266-7425
                    new: 1-800-247-0126, fax 515-266-4229
    general info:  1-800-247-7508
    outlets in chambersburg, hanover and quakertown, all in pa.

    Good selection of new and used parts for tractors old and new.
    They have lots of local stores, which are fun to shop in too.

Chestnut Hill Orchards
    3300 Bee Cave Road
    Austin, Texas, 78749
    (512) 477-3020

    Chestnut hybrids?

Cumberland General Store
    Rt 3 Box 81
    Crossville, TN 38555
    800/334-4640

    Same as Lehman's but bigger selection; e.g. includes buggies and
    buggy parts, horse drawn equipment, blacksmithing tools (though
    these are better bought used), patent medicines, &c.

    Catalog is $3 (refundable)  "old time general merchandise".  About
    270 pages of "Goods in Endless Variety for Man & Beast".

Dadant and Sons, Inc.
    Hamilton, IL  62341
    (217) 847-3324
 
    Beekeeping supplies.

Gohn Bros.
    P.O. Box 111
    Middlebury IN  46540-0111
    219-825-2400

    They have great broadfall pants that last and last, and are
    comfortable as well.

Grimm Co Inc
    Box 130
    Rutland, VT 05701
    802-775-5411

    Everything you could ever need to make maple sugar products, both
    home scale and larger.

Happy Valley Ranch
    Rt 2 Box 83
    Paola, KS 66071
    913/849-3103

    "We have their one-bucket cider press and grinder and are very
    satisfied."  Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm

Harrowsmith
    Harrowsmith Books
    Camden East, Ontario
    Canada  K0K 1J0
    800-267-7833, ext. 784

    Source Books - A Compendium of Practical Literature for the Home
    Library
	
Jaffrey
    POB 226
    Mont Vernon, NH  03057

    We didn't buy their cider press but I included it for the option.

Jensales Co.
    P.O. Box 985
    Burnsville, MN  55337
    800 443-0625

    Tractor shop manuals.

Kerr Controls Ltd.
    P.O. Box 1500
    Truro, Nova Scotia
    Canada
    B2N 5V2

    "They make wood-fired boilers and wood-fired warm-air furnaces."
    Robert Enenkel

King's Books
    P.O. Box 86
    Radner, OH	43066

    Tractor shop manuals.

Lehman's Hardware
    POB 41
    4779 Kidron Rd
    Kidron, Ohio 44636
    216-857-5441  (fax) 216/857-5785

    This (and Cumberland) are like looking at turn of the century
    Sears catalogs - that you can still order from!  Lots of great
    stuff, most at reasonable prices.

    Lehman's Non-Electric Good Neighbor Heritage Catalog ($2.00)

    If it doesn't run on electricity, it's in there somewhere

    "Merchandise reflecting an undying culture, a reverence for
    tradition, and sensible ways to meet today's needs.

	Kitchen & Housewares		A Variety of the Hard-to-Find
	Stoves for Heating & Cooking	Non-Electric Appliances
	Farming and Homesteading	Woodworking & Logsmithing"

    They claim to cater to the Amish (hence the non-electric
    appliances).  The catalog *is* neat, and they have some interested
    stuff, but it tends to be pricey.  Where else are you going to
    find a wringer clothes washer with a 3 H.P. Briggs & Stratton
    engine?

Mid-States Livestock Supplies
    1.800.841.9665

    Sheep supplies.

Murray McMurray Hatchery
    Webster City, Iowa  50595-0458
    Order: 800-456-3280
    Customer Service: 515-832-3280

    Chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, guineas, and equipment.

NASCO
    800-558-9595

    Fruit shredders and presses.

New England Cheesemaking Supply Company
    P.O. Box 85
    Ashfield, Mass 01330

Nichols Nursery
    1190 North Pacific Highway
    Albany, Oregon  97321-4598
    ph.[503] 928-9280
    fax[503] 967-8406

    Wild ginger (asarum caudatum).

Northern Hydraulics
    P.O. Box 1499
    Burnsville, MN 55337-0499
    800-533-5545  or 612-894-8310  (fax) 612-894-0003

    Generators, Gasoline Engines, and miscellaneous Good Stuff

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
    11173 Peaceful Valley Rd
    Nevada City, CA 95959
    916/265-FARM

    Pricey but includes some things that are hard to find.  I don't
    think we've ever bought from them.

Lee W. Pederson
    78 Taft Avenue
    Lynbrook, NY  11563

    Tractor shop manuals.

Premier
    Box 89
    Washington, Ia 52353
    800-282-6631

    Electric fencing.

    "The people [there] are always quite helpful."  Russell Such

Real Goods
    Real Goods, Alternative Energy Sourcebook 1990
    John Schaeffer, et al,
    Real Goods Trading Company
    966 Mazzoni St
    Ukiah, Ca 95482
    800-762-7325 (orders)
    707-468-0301 (tech)
    707-468-0301 (FAX)ISBN  0-916571-00-9-
    $14
    Distributed by Ten Speed Press

Red Power
    Box 277
    Battle Creek, IA  51006
    (712) 365-4873

    International Harvester Co. information.

Ricw Equipment Co.
     20 N Sheridan
     Clarion, PA  16214

    Tractor shop manuals.

Safety Tech Co.
    Middleburg, FL
    904-282-1200

    Sells Permanone tick killer.

Sheepman Supply
    1.800.336.3005

Sierra-Riteway Mfg. Co.
    1680 Country Club Road
    Harrisonburg, VA 22801
    USA

    "They make wood/coal-fired and wood/coal/oil or wood/coal/gas
    fired boilers."  Robert Enenkel

Solar Electric Engineering, Inc
    175 Cascade Court
    Rohnert Park, CA 94928
    7070-586-1987 fax: 707 586-0690

    Catalog $3.00
    They installed my solar electric and hot water systems.

Starbolt Engine Supplies
    3403 Buckeystown Pike
    Adamstown, MD  21710
    (310) 874-2821
    (310) 695-2665

    Tractor shop manuals.

Storey's Hard-to-Find Books for Country Living
    Schoolhouse Rd
    Pownal, VT 05261
    800-827-8673  Canada: 800-445-3906
    Customer assistance 413-664-7195

    Everything from "The Craft of Smocking" to "Be your Own Chimney
    Sweep"

Steven Van Gorden
    PO Box 109
    Breinigville  PA  18031

    "Has available a bunch of information sheets on a variety of
    [aquacultural] issues.  Also publishes a quarterly newsletter that
    you probably wouldn't be interested in."  Bob Kyweriga

Trace Engineering
    5917 195th N.E. 
    Arlington, WA 98223
    (206) 435-8826

    Power equipment.

Walter T. Kelley Co.
    Clarkston, KY  42726
    (502) 242-2012

    Beekeeping supplies.

Wish Hatchery
    Box 362
    Prairie City, OR 97869
    (503) 820-3509

    Wishard Bronze turkeys.

    "The author of [an article about Turkey Genetic Conservation],
    David Sullenberger, is a professor of biology at New Mexico State
    University.  He is an AMBC member, and keeps a flock of Wishard
    Bronze turkeys.  For a copy of the entire article plus the
    bibliography, send a 45-cent SASE to AMBC, Box 477, Pittsboro, NC
    27312."  Heather Hubbard

    "AMBC member Peter Jorgensen also has a flock of Wishard Bronze,
    and can be reached at CS Fund Conservancy, 469 Bohemian Highway,
    Freestone, CA 95472, (707) 874-2942."  Heather Hubbard

Wholesale Veterinary Supply
    POB 2256
    Rockford, IL 61131
    800/435-6940

    Good selection of veterinary supplies at good prices.

Wooltique
    1.800.657.0746

    Sheep supplies.
-- 
Dave Sill
Play: cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu
Work: de5@ornl.gov


From samba!concert!gatech!rpi!utcsri!geac!r-node!ndallen Fri Mar  5 17:29:24 EST 1993
Article: 4836 of misc.rural
Xref: samba alt.native:2366 soc.culture.usa:12382 soc.culture.african.american:24447 misc.rural:4836
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.native,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.african.american,misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!rpi!utcsri!geac!r-node!ndallen
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Rural Health Care; Media Tour of San Carlos Apache Reservation
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 23:59:51 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Mar4.235951.29755@r-node.hub.org>
Lines: 42

Here is a press release from the American Medical Association.

 AMA Minority Committee to Examine Problems of Rural Health Care;
Media Tour of San Carlos Apache Reservation March 26
 To: Assignment Desk, Medical and Healthcare writers
 Contact: Lydia Steck of the American Medical Association,
          312-464-5372

   News Advisory:

   Who:    The American Medical Association's Advisory Committee on
           Minority Physicians, which was established to address
           issues that affect minority doctors and to pinpoint
           health needs of minority patients

   What:   The media will have a unique opportunity to visit the
           San Carlos Apache Reservation in Globe, Ariz.  Hosted
           by committee member Victoria Stevens, M.D., an orthopedic
           surgeon who practices on the reservation, the group
           will tour the community and meet its residents.  They
           will also see the federally-run Indian Health Service
           and participate in a free-forum discussion with local
           physicians and residents about the health care problems
           of rural communities.

   When:   Friday, March 26

   Where:  A bus will depart from the Wyndham Garden Airport Hotel,
           Phoenix, Ariz., at 6:30 a.m., and will return from Globe,
           Ariz., Friday evening about 6:30 p.m.

   Details:
   This site visit will give the media a first-hand look at life in
rural America and the health care hurdles residents face including
access, availability and proximity of care.
   For more information, or to register for the one-day trip,
contact: Lydia Steck, public information officer, American Medical
Association, 312-464-5372.

 -30-
-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    ndallen@r-node.hub.org


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!scott.skidmore.edu!psinntp!psinntp!uuneo!sugar!claird Sun Mar 14 20:53:18 EST 1993
Article: 4850 of misc.rural
Xref: samba soc.history:18876 misc.rural:4850
Newsgroups: soc.history,misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!scott.skidmore.edu!psinntp!psinntp!uuneo!sugar!claird
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Crop data
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 16:08:25 GMT
Message-ID: <C3Mq64.675@sugar.neosoft.com>
Lines: 47

A couple of weeks ago I reported a few example data
on crop yields (US corn averages 105-110 bushels per
acre in the 1990s, with a positive trend, and so on);
this was in response to comments on the Green Revolu-
tion, which was itself inspired by ruminations on
Significant Events of the Millenium, and so on.  The
(USA) National Corn Growers Association last month
announced the results of their 1992 yield contest,
and I thought a brief summary might be of interest:

Winners in various divisions registered measured
production of 238.35 to 330.45 bushels per acre.
One of the dimensions for dividing entrants is geo-
graphy; growers in Illinois, Indiana, Iowa,
Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, and Wisconsin are
separated from all the other, non-Corn Belt opera-
tions.  However, as has happened fairly often in the
past, an "outsider", from Pasco, Washington, grew
the top corn this year.

Note that highest yields are not necessarily re-
munerative; some of these fields were irrigated
and/or fertilized and/or otherwise managed in ways
that maximize yield, but not profitability, sustain-
ability, or so on.  Still, it's interesting to
establish what is possible, even if one doesn't
choose to drive a Formula I vehicle to pick up
groceries.

Also, it's remarkable that the range between the
top yields and the national average is as limited
as it is; in industrial operations, it is not un-
common to find efficiency measures which vary by
factors larger than four (!) from one installation
to the next (think of different GM automobile
plants, for example).  I take this as testimony to
the progressiveness of US farmers.

Recall that a bushel of maize weighs 56 pounds,
there are 2.2 pounds per kilogram, 2.47 acres per
hectare, and 100 kilograms per quintal, when com-
paring accounts in different countries.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!zooid!r-node!ndallen Sun Mar 14 20:56:41 EST 1993
Article: 4851 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.rural:4851 talk.politics.misc:91936 alt.activism:36425
Newsgroups: misc.rural,talk.politics.misc,alt.activism
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!zooid!r-node!ndallen
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: President Clinton nominates officials at Agriculture Department
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 00:02:04 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Mar10.000204.1763@r-node.hub.org>
Lines: 133

Here is a press release from the White House.

 President Nominates Officials at Agriculture, Commerce, HUD, and UN
 To: National Desk
 Contact: The White House, Office of the Press Secretary,
          202-456-2100

   WASHINGTON, March 8  -- The President continued the
process of filling the subcabinet today, expressing his intent to
nominate eight senior officials at the Departments of Agriculture,
Commerce, and Housing and Urban Development, and at the U.S. Mission
to the United Nations.
   Named today were:
   * Michael Stegman, Assistant Secretary for Policy Development and
Research, Department of Housing and Urban Development.
   * Everett Ehrlich, Under Secretary for Economic Affairs,
Department of Commerce.
   * Eugene Moos, Under Secretary for International Affairs and
Commodity Programs, Department of Agriculture.
   * Richard Rominger, Deputy Secretary of Agriculture.
   * Wardell Townsend, Jr., Assistant Secretary for Administration,
Department of Agriculture.
   * Francis Vacca, Assistant Secretary for Congressional Relations,
Department of Agriculture.
   * Victor Marrero, U.S. Representative to the Economic and Security
Council, United Nations.
   * Karl F. (Rick) Indefurth, U.S. Alternative for Special Political
Affairs, United Nations.
   "The people I am asking to serve in my administration today
combine academic achievement with real world experience," said the
President.  "I am particularly pleased to be naming two family
farmers to help run the Department of Agriculture."
   Biographical sketches of the nominees follow.
   ------
                  BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCHES OF NOMINEES
                            March 8, 1993

   MICHAEL STEGMAN is the Cary C. Boshamer Professor and Chairman of
the Department of of City and Regional Planning at the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill.  He has been associated with UNC since
1973.  He also has extensive practical experience in the housing
field.  He was executive director of the Twentieth Century Fund Task
Force on Affordable Housing in 1990-91, and is a consultant and
expert witness to the Legal Aid Society of New York and president of
the Triangle Housing Partnership.  He was deputy assistant secretary
for research at HUD from 1979-81, during which time he chaired the
President's Rural Housing Task Force and was a member of the White
House Inter-Agency Working Group on the Administration's Small
Communities and Rural Development Policy.  He holds a B.A. from
Brooklyn College of the City University of New York, and masters and
doctoral degrees in city planning from the University of
Pennsylvania.

   EVERTT EHRLICH, an expert in economic forecasting and policy
planning, is the Vice President for Economic and Financial Planning
for the UNISYS Corp.  He has previously held UNISYS vice president
posts responsible for Strategy Development and Economic Analysis.
>From 1977 to 1988, he served on the staff of the Congressional Budget
Office's Natural Resources and Commerce Division as principal
analyst, deputy assistant director, and then assistant director.  He
holds degrees in economics from the State University of New York at
Stony Brook (B.A.) and the University of Michigan (Ph.D), and is the
co- author of two books, New Directions in Economic Policy (1984) and
Energy Policy Analysis and Congressional Action (1982).

   GENE MOOS, a former Congressional staffer with 26 years of
experience running a family farm, is the President of Gene Moos &
Associates, a Washington, D.C. lobbying firm.  He was formerly a
special assistant to then-House Majority Leader Thomas S. Foley,
staff director of the Wheat, Soybeans and Feed Grains Subcommittee of
the House Agriculture Committee, and senior staff professional of the
House Agriculture Committee.  From 1949-1975, he operated his
family's wheat farm in Washington.  He is a graduate of Washington
State University.

   RICHARD ROMINGER is a family farmer who raises alfalfa, barley,
beans, corn and other crops in California.  He has previously served
in government as director of the California Department of Food and
Agriculture from 1977 to 1982.  During that time, he served terms as
president of the Western Association of State Departments of
Agriculture and the Western U.S. Agricultural Trade Association.  He
was also on the board of directors of the National Association of
State Departments of Agriculture, and is active in a number of
professional agricultural associations.  He holds a Bachelor of
Science degree from the University of California at Davis.

   WARDELL TOWNSEND has served Secretary Espy as administrative
assistant and chief of staff in his House of Representatives office
since 1989.  He was previously Espy's legislative director, and
served on the staffs of Reps. Jamie Clarke and Doug Applegate.  He
has also served as the business development manager of the Cherokee
Minority Business Development Center and the community development
director of the Henderson County, N.C., Department of Community
Development.  He holds a B.S.  from Western Carolina University and a
M.S.W. from the West Virginia University School of Social Work.

   FRANICS VACCA is the president of Vacca and Associates, a private
consulting firm in Washington, D.C., that specializes in agricultural
issues.  From 1976 to 1990, he was the vice president for government
relations for Mid-America Dairymen Inc.  He has also served as
administrative assistant to Rep. Bob Traxler and California Assembly
Minority Leader Jesse Unruh.  He is a graduate of Boston College.

   VICTOR MARRERO, the Under Secretary of HUD during the Carter
administration and former New York State commissioner of housing and
community renewal, is a partner in the New York City law firm of
Brown & Wood.  He has also served as vice chairman of the New York
State Housing Finance Agency, chairman of the New York City Planning
Commission, and as first assistant counsel to New York Gov. Hugh
Carey and New York City Comptroller Harrison Goldin.  He has served
on numerous state and city boards and commissions, and on the boards
of the New York Telephone Co.  and the Consolidated Edison Co.  A
native of Puerto Rico and former Fullbright Scholar, Marrero is a
graduate of New York University.

   RICK INDEFURTH is a project director at the Center for National
Policy, a senior consultant to the Eurasia Foundation, and a working
group member at the Georgetown University Institute for the Study of
Diplomacy.  He was formerly a professional staff member of the Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence, special assistant to National
Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, and deputy staff director of
the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.  He also worked as a
correspondent for ABC News, where he won an Emmy Award for
Outstanding Background Analysis of a Single Current Story.  A former
Fullbright Scholar, Indefurth holds degrees from the University of
North Carolina, Strathclvde University in Scotland, and Princeton
University.
 -0-
 /U.S. Newswire  202-347-2770/


-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    ndallen@r-node.hub.org


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!zooid!r-node!ndallen Sun Mar 14 20:57:25 EST 1993
Article: 4852 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.rural:4852 talk.politics.misc:91937
Newsgroups: misc.rural,talk.politics.misc,ca.general
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!zooid!r-node!ndallen
From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: American Farmland Trust Applauds Appointment of Rominger at USDA
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 00:05:44 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Mar10.000544.2123@r-node.hub.org>
Lines: 44

Here is a press release from American Farmland Trust.

 American Farmland Trust Applauds Appointment of Rominger at USDA
 To: National Desk, Agriculture Writer
 Contact: Gary Kozel, 202-659-5170 or 202-466-5591; or
          Ralph Grossi, 301-774-1503, of American Farmland Trust

   WASHINGTON, March 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- American Farmland Trust, a
national farmland conservation group based in Washington, today
commended the selection of Richard E. Rominger as deputy secretary of
the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
   Rominger, a fourth-generation northern California farmer, served
as director of the California Department of Food and Agriculture from
1977 to 1982.  He recently was named the Golden State's
Agriculturalist of the Year.
   "Rich Rominger is an excellent choice for this key position within
USDA," said AFT President Ralph E. Grossi.  "He has been involved in
agriculture since childhood, knows the issues and brings a strong
commitment to agricultural research and conservation.  We believe he
will make a fine deputy secretary, and we look forward to working
with him and his staff."
   Rominger farms with his brother, sons and nephews on a 6,000-acre
diversified ranch near Winters, Calif.  He grew up on a Yolo County
farm and received a bachelor's degree, summa cum laude, in plant
science from the University of California in Davis.  In recent years,
he has served as vice chairman of AFT's board and chairman of its
policy committee.  AFT is a private, nonprofit membership
organization working to stop the loss of productive farmland and
promote farming practices that will lead to a healthy environment.
   Rominger, Grossi added, strengthens the new administration's
agricultural team because of his California experience.  "California
is a microcosm of the nationwide issues faced by the USDA," he said.
"Rich's experience in tackling tough trade, environmental and
consumer issues and his commitment to the protection of America's
farmland and the principle of sustainability will be valuable assets
to Secretary Espy."
   American Farmland Trust is a private, nonprofit membership
organization founded in 1980 to stop the loss of productive farmland
and promote farming practices that will lead to a healthy
environment.  AFT is located at 1920 N Street, N.W., Suite 400,
Washington, D.C. 20036.  Minimum annual membership is $20.
 -30-
-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    ndallen@r-node.hub.org


From samba!concert!gatech!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uunet!pipex!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe Sun Mar 14 20:58:23 EST 1993
Article: 4853 of misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!wupost!uunet!pipex!bnr.co.uk!stl!crosfield!roe
From: roe@crosfield.co.uk (malcolm roe)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Putting in gates on a hillside
Message-ID: <16328@suns8.crosfield.co.uk>
Date: 10 Mar 93 12:16:26 GMT
References: <C3JHoA.8K@world.std.com> <1993Mar9.082419.3410@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.
Lines: 35

>  One thing I've never quite worked out a
> satisfactory plan for is putting in gates when fence runs up a hill.
> What should one do?

What's important is to ensure that the hinges are vertical.  It doesn't
matter if the gate itself slopes.  A crude ASCII drawing (with an
exaggerated slope) follows:-


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                 /               -------
                /                       -------
               /                               -------  |
              /              Gate                    /-+|
-------       -------                               /   |
       -------       -------                       /    | Gate post
 Hill side    -------       -------               /     |
                     -------       -------       /-----+|
                            -------       -------       |
                                   -------              |
                                          -------       |
                                                 -------|
                                                        -------
+ marks the position of the hinges or, to be precise, the hinge pins.
The gate can be turned to any position and, since it neither rises nor
falls it will stay put.  On a realistic slope the offset is only likely
to ba a few inches and can be achieved simply by appropriate positioning
of the hinges.  If it's a steel gate you may need to weld in a spacer.

-- 
Malcolm Roe                            Phone  :  +44 442 230000 ext 4104
Crosfield Electronics Ltd              Fax    :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK    E-mail :  roe@crosfield.co.uk 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!olivea!charnel!rat!mimbres.cs.unm.edu!bbx!tantalum!tantalum!bill Sun Mar 14 20:59:41 EST 1993
Article: 4855 of misc.rural
Xref: samba soc.history:18903 misc.rural:4855
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From: bill@edsr.eds.com (William C. Slade)
Newsgroups: soc.history,misc.rural
Subject: Re: Crop data
Message-ID: <1993Mar10.192241.22760@edsr.eds.com>
Date: 10 Mar 93 19:22:41 GMT
References: <C3Mq64.675@sugar.neosoft.com>
Sender: usenet@edsr.eds.com
Reply-To: wslade@edsr.eds.com
Organization: EDS Research
Lines: 29

In article <C3Mq64.675@sugar.neosoft.com>, claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
> A couple of weeks ago I reported a few example data
> on crop yields (US corn averages 105-110 bushels per
> acre in the 1990s, with a positive trend, and so on);
> this was in response to comments on the Green Revolu-
> tion, which was itself inspired by ruminations on
> Significant Events of the Millenium, and so on.  The
> (USA) National Corn Growers Association last month
> announced the results of their 1992 yield contest,
> and I thought a brief summary might be of interest:
> 
> Winners in various divisions registered measured
> production of 238.35 to 330.45 bushels per acre.
> ...
> Note that highest yields are not necessarily re-
> munerative; some of these fields were irrigated
> and/or fertilized and/or otherwise managed in ways
> that maximize yield, but not profitability, sustain-
> ability, or so on...
> -- 
> 
> Cameron Laird
> claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
> claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546

Did they also report on the protein content of this corn? Historically,
protein content has declined as yield has increased.

Bill


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sgiblab!munnari.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!sserve!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim Sun Mar 14 21:00:16 EST 1993
Article: 4856 of misc.rural
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From: rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Bob McKay)
Subject: Re: Putting in gates on a hillside
Message-ID: <1993Mar10.234716.29820@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>
Sender: news@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
References: <C3JHoA.8K@world.std.com> <1993Mar9.082419.3410@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> <16328@suns8.crosfield.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 23:47:16 GMT
Lines: 20

roe@crosfield.co.uk (malcolm roe) writes:


>What's important is to ensure that the hinges are vertical.  It doesn't
>matter if the gate itself slopes.  A crude ASCII drawing (with an
>exaggerated slope) follows:-

[lovely piece of ASCII artwork deleted]

One point to add to this and a previous note is that the hinge post
MUST be on the downhill side - if you put it on the uphill side, the gate
won't open (I know, that's just common sense - trouble is, I've done an awful
lot of things in my time that LATER common sense told me wouldn't work)
     Cheers
       Bob McKay
-- 
Bob McKay		   	Phone:	+61 6 268 8169	    fax: +61 6 268 8581
Dept. Computer Science		Internet:	rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au
ADFA, Northcott Dve 		UUCP:...!uunet!munnari!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim
Campbell ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA	ARPA:	rim%csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au@uunet.uu.net


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!menudo.uh.edu!uuneo!sugar!claird Sun Mar 14 21:02:48 EST 1993
Article: 4859 of misc.rural
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From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Protein yields (was: Crop data)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1993 14:06:35 GMT
Message-ID: <C3q9uz.L6F@sugar.neosoft.com>
References: <C3Mq64.675@sugar.neosoft.com> <1993Mar10.192241.22760@edsr.eds.com>
Lines: 54

In article <1993Mar10.192241.22760@edsr.eds.com> wslade@edsr.eds.com writes:
>In article <C3Mq64.675@sugar.neosoft.com>, claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:
			.
			.
			.
>> Significant Events of the Millenium, and so on.  The
>> (USA) National Corn Growers Association last month
>> announced the results of their 1992 yield contest,
>> and I thought a brief summary might be of interest:
>> 
>> Winners in various divisions registered measured
>> production of 238.35 to 330.45 bushels per acre.
>> ...
>> Note that highest yields are not necessarily re-
>> munerative; some of these fields were irrigated
>> and/or fertilized and/or otherwise managed in ways
>> that maximize yield, but not profitability, sustain-
>> ability, or so on...
			.
			.
			.
>Did they also report on the protein content of this corn? Historically,
>protein content has declined as yield has increased.
>
>Bill

No.

That is, protein contents didn't appear in the report
that showed up in my hands.  As I keep insisting, this
is a big subject.  I've seen plenty of data that back
your assertion that protein content and yield vary
inversely, but there also have been some funny cases
in which very high-yielding plots have had good pro-
tein contents.  For most of the century, incidentally,
protein content has been, at best, of secondary interest;
for at least some uses, protein is little more than a
distraction.  (Differential) protein pricing has begun to
appear in the US in the last twenty years, but few com-
mercial farms tilt their agronomic practices much in the
direction that would suggest.

I don't have current data with me, just an old reference
that gives

	National Corn Growers Association
	POB B
	Boone, IA  50036
	+1 515-432-2703.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!mrccrc!warwick!str-ccsun!dunlop.cs.strath.ac.uk!bnr.co.uk!pipex!sunic!aun.uninett.no!nuug!nntp.nta.no!news Sun Mar 14 21:03:27 EST 1993
Article: 4860 of misc.rural
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From: BARANSKI@veamf1.nusc.navy.mil (Jim Baranski)
Subject: Re: Putting in gates on a hillside
In-Reply-To: cosell@world.std.com's message of 11 Mar 93 04:48:08 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Mar11.182012.21067@nntp.nta.no>
Sender: news@nntp.nta.no
Nntp-Posting-Host: veamf1.nusc.navy.mil
Organization: Lanman Hill, Norwich CT
References: <16328@suns8.crosfield.co.uk> <C3pK0A.ADJ@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 18:20:12 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20
Lines: 15

In <C3pK0A.ADJ@world.std.com> cosell@world.std.com writes:

 Got it... Thanks for the advice.  I see clearly that if you amke
 the gate a parallelogram, skewed to follow the ground, it'll all work
 quite nicely.  My only problem is that I wasn't planning to *make*
 the gates: I was just going to go to the farm supply and pick up a
 standard, metal 12' or 14' gate and hang it.  Is there any similar
 way to deal with the problemif you're using a store-bought gate?
 

The heavy duty gate hinges that I like the best are one part eye hook, and one
part right angle hook.  It's easiest to get parts with long stems, and vary how
far they stick out from the gate and the post.

Jim Baranski


From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![nigel.allen@canrem.com] Sun Mar 14 21:05:49 EST 1993
Article: 4865 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Subject: National Agriculture Week Finds Nation's Farmland Under Siege
Message-ID: <1993Mar11.4143.3158@dosgate>
Reply-To: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: misc
Date: 11 Mar 93 19:24:16 EST
Lines: 49


Here is a press release from the American Farmland Trust.

 National Agriculture Week Finds Nation's Farmland Under Siege
 To: National Desk, Agriculture Writer
 Contact: Gary Kozel of the American Farmland Trust, 202-659-5170

   WASHINGTON, March 11  -- As the nation celebrates
National Agriculture Week from March 14 to March 20, the very
resource that supports U.S. agriculture and its bounty of food and
fiber will continue to be destroyed.
   Over the seven-day period, American Farmland Trust reports some
42,300 acres of productive farmland will give way to development and
urban sprawl.  That's 6,000 acres of farmland a day, 251 acres a
minute or four acres a second.
   According to AFT, a national farmland conservation group based in
Washington, much of the loss will be prime farmland, which yields the
most food at the lowest production cost and least environmental
impact.  A good percentage will be concentrated in or near the
cuntry's most urbanized and rapidly growing areas.
  AFT pointed specifically to the Chicago area where from 1970 to
1990 population grew by only four percent as urban land use increased
a startling 46 percent.
   "Our best farmland is being lost -- 150,000 acres every year in
Florida, 100,000 annually in California, and thousands more in many
of our coastal and Midwestern states," said AFT President Ralph E.
Grossi.  "The Soil Conservation Service, in fact, now estimates the
U.S. is losing between 2.2 and 2.5 million acres of productive
frmland every year.  As we honor the men and women in U.S.
agriculture, let us not overlook this very real threat to our
nation's farmland.  Clearly, something must be done to stop the loss
of our most important natural resource."
   Grossi called on federal policy-makers to consider ways to reform
American farm policy.  The U.S, he said, should eliminate or reduce
federal subsidies to development that consumes productive farmland
unnecessarily, shift farm program spending from costly
overproduction to resource conservation and deficit reduction,
implement the Farms for the Future Act and thereby reinforce state
and local farmland protection efforts and recognize the significance
of urban-influenced agriculture.
   "We must recognize that our farmland needs to be respected for
what it produces," said Grossi.  "Too often, agriculture is regarded
as what is done with land until some other use can be found.  That
attitude must change.  Farmland must have the same level of priority
and concern as other urban and suburban land uses."
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044


From samba!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!hamblin.math.byu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!uunet!utcsri!relay.cs.toronto.edu!neat.cs.toronto.edu!cs.toronto.edu!enenkel Sun Mar 14 21:07:26 EST 1993
Article: 4867 of misc.rural
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Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: enenkel@cs.toronto.edu ("Robert F. Enenkel")
Subject: Re: Water purification
Message-ID: <93Mar12.133424est.47558@neat.cs.toronto.edu>
Summary: Iron Removal
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
References: <1993Mar11.161018.7268@ncar.ucar.edu>
Distribution: na
Date: 12 Mar 93 18:34:44 GMT
Lines: 10

gagnon@rsf.atd.ucar.edu (Rich Gagnon) writes:

[about 1000 gal cistern and removing iron from drinking water]

I have heard of a fish breeder in Japan who removes iron by spraying the
water through fine fogg-it type nozzles into a large open tank filled
with sand, which traps the resulting oxidized particulate.  These sand tanks
are periodically backwashed.  He tests the iron content of the water
with tea.  (I believe the iron makes it go dark).  Let me know if you
want more information on this and I'll look it up.  Robert Enenkel


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!darwin.sura.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![nigel.allen@canrem.com] Sun Mar 14 21:12:33 EST 1993
Article: 4868 of misc.rural
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From: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Subject: Agriculture Stabilization and Conservation Service (ASCS): NTEU Wins Right to Represent Major Agriculture Unit
Message-ID: <1993Mar13.4143.3164@dosgate>
Reply-To: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: misc
Date: 13 Mar 93 08:27:28 EST
Lines: 27


Here is a press release from the National Treasury
Employees Union (NTEU).

 NTEU Wins Right to Represent Major Agriculture Unit
 To: National Desk, Labor Writer
 Contact: George King of the National Treasury Employees Union,
          202-783-4444, 703-849-8737 (after hours)

   WASHINGTON, March 12  -- The National Treasury Employees 
Union (NTEU) has won the right to represent employees of
the Kansas City, Mo., based Agriculture Stabilization and
Conservation Service (ASCS), according to Robert M. Tobias, NTEU
president.
   In what Tobias termed a "stunning" voter turnout, 80 percent of
the ASCS employees participated in the Feb. 11 election.  Employees
voted 472-418 for NTEU.
   Tobias said the victory came about despite an intense effort by
management to get out the "No" vote.  "Management used various
tactics to exploit some employees' fears of unions," he said.
   The NTEU leader said the organizing effort began two years ago as
employees became more and more frustrated with inconsistent work
rules in different divisions of the service.
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044


From samba!concert!rock!stanford.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![nigel.allen@canrem.com] Sat Mar 20 22:54:19 EST 1993
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From: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Subject: American Farmland Trust Calls For Start of "Green Evolution"
Message-ID: <1993Mar17.4143.3174@dosgate>
Reply-To: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: misc
Date: 17 Mar 93 19:02:49 EST
Lines: 77


Here is a press release from American Farmland Trust.

 American Farmland Trust Calls For Start of "Green Evolution"
 To: National Desk, Farm and Environment  Writers
 Contact: Gary Kozel of American Farmland Trust, 202-659-5170 or
          816-474-4400

   KANSAS CITY, Mo., March 16  -- Asserting that the status quo 
in U.S. agriculture can no longer be maintained, American
Farmland Trust President Ralph E. Grossi today called on farmers to
work toward a "green evolution" based on resource stewardship and
marketplace economics.
   Grossi told a national forum on future U.S. agricultural
conservation policy that the long-term sustainability of today's
agricultural system is threatened by a deteriorating natural resource
base, ever-rising production costs, the prospect of stronger
regulatory control and other factors.  Producers, he said, must find
a better way.
   "Agriculture must engage in a broad effort to help change the
status quo," contended Grossi, a third-generation farmer who has
headed AFT, a Washington-based farmland conservation group, since
1985.  "It must promote a farming system that is in harmony with the
environment.  A farming system that supports producers as good
stewards of the land.  A system that is affordable to the U.S.
Treasury.  And a system that results in genuine economic efficiency
and competitiveness in the production of food and fiber for an open
and changing global marketplace.  In short, a farming system that is
more sustainable than today's."
   Such a system, Grossi explained, will require significant change
on the part of producers and what he called a "deliberate and gradual
shift in priorities."  Among them would be:
   Recognizing that problems of agriculture cannot be successfully
addressed unless producers and consumers cooperate in good faith.
"Production agriculture should no longer try to belittle the impact
of farming on the environment nor exaggerate the effect of
regulations on farmers," he said.  "Consumers should not expect
producers to sacrifice their property rights or shoulder the entire
cost of protecting the environment."
   Adopting a new generation of direct conservation incentives that
reward producers for protecting environmental resources like highly
erodible soils, wetlands, critical wildlife habitat, sensitive
watersheds and strategic farmlands.
   "These incentives could gradually replace traditional commodity
programs as a source of farm income support, guaranteeing U.S. food
security by protecting both the production infrastructure and
resource base that represent America's greatest competitive
advantage," Grossi said.  "(Otherwise, if we) try to maintain the
status quo, we will probably see government farm program support
continue to decline in the face of budgetary realities and
diminishing public support for agriculture."
   Focusing more attention on urban-fringe agriculture.  Fifty-eight
percent of total U.S. agricultural production, he noted, comes from
counties in or beside major cities, where the threat of conversion is
greatest.  Much of this farmland is prime and unique.  "If we cut the
legs out from under those who farm on the fringe, they will not
simply be absorbed by larger producers as they would in rural areas,"
he said.  "They will sell their land for subdivisions and shopping
malls.  The resource base -- particularly those strategic unique
specialty lands -- will forever be lost."
   Grossi said that only by undertaking such fundamental changes in
direction, can agriculture remain economically competitive and meet
society's environmental expectations.  "We believe that by sharing
responsibility of stewardship between farmers and the public, taking
a balanced approach to land use with an emphasis on incentives and
protecting the most productive farmland from surburbanization, we
will strike a responsive chord," he said.  "A response that will
build a cooperative atmosphere for the 21st century."
   American Farmland Trust is a national, nonprofit membership
organization that is working to stop the loss of productive farmland
and to promote farming practices that will lead to a healthy
environment.  Its national office is at 1920 N Street, N.W.,
Suite 400, Washington, D.C. 20036.  Minimum annual membership is $20.
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pipex!ibmpcug!robobar!stl!crosfield!roe Sat Mar 20 22:59:18 EST 1993
Article: 4889 of misc.rural
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From: roe@crosfield.co.uk (malcolm roe)
Subject: Re: Putting in gates on a hillside
Message-ID: <1993Mar18.182615.19473@crosfield.co.uk>
Organization: Crosfield, Hemel Hempstead, UK
References: <16328@suns8.crosfield.co.uk> <C3pK0A.ADJ@world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 18:26:15 GMT
Lines: 79

In article <C3pK0A.ADJ@world.std.com> cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell) writes:
>Got it... Thanks for the advice.  I see clearly that if you amke
>the gate a parallelogram, skewed to follow the ground, it'll all work
>quite nicely.  My only problem is that I wasn't planning to *make*
>the gates: I was just going to go to the farm supply and pick up a
>standard, metal 12' or 14' gate and hang it.  Is there any similar
>way to deal with the problemif you're using a store-bought gate?

No you havn't got it.  The gate doesn't have to be a parallelogram.
It can be an ordinary rectangle.  You will just have small triangular
gaps between the gate and the gate posts.  Assume a 12' gate with a
2' fall on the slope (for example).  The slope is asin(1/6).  The
triangular gaps will have the same angle.  What's the height of the
gate? - 4'?  If so, the width of the triangular gaps is only 8".
This is unlikely to be a problem.  I've never seen a horse, for example,
less than 8" wide!  Also, you can make the gap at the opposite end to
the hinges disappear.  Just put the post 8" closer.  The bottom of
the gate will strike the post but so what?  You want a stop for the
gate anyway.

>On the other hand, I should dig around and check some of my
>references and see just how hard it'd be to build a gate.  I've
>never done anything like that before [all of our other gates are
>either the store-bought ones or spring gates [spring gates work
>great on hillsides, but they're a *bitch* to open and close]]...
>but how hard can it be?  :-)

Yes you could make a gate, in which case make it a parallelogram
and it will be that much neater, but to do an effective job will
need some good woodworking.  Gates take a lot of punishment.

>} ...  If it's a steel gate you may need to weld in a spacer.
>
>I don't understand this part.  Here's my steel gate:
>
>     -------------------------
>     |-----------|-----------|H
>     |-----------|-----------|
>     |-----------|-----------|H
>     -------------------------
>Where the 'H's are the two swing-eyes where the hinge pins will go.
>Is the idea that you'd 'tilt' the gate by doing:
>
>             --|
>             --|H====H
>             --|   ^
>             --|H   \ welded-on 'extender'.
>             ---

If you do it this way you'll have problems.  Look at my original
drawing.  The extender should be on the bottom hinge and the hinges
should be on the downhill post otherwise the gate will hit the ground
when you open it.

>If this is the case, I have two questions:
>  1) would there be any lower-tech way to kludge up the extender besides
>     welding it?  I can't weld worth squat [and I don't have any welding
>     equipment, although I've been thinking about getting some...]

Around my way I could easily find a garage or blacksmith who would do
the job for a small amount of money.  It would only take about 5 mins.
I'm sure it's possible to make a good non welded job but you would have
to be prepared to work with quite heavy pieces of steel, cutting and
drilling them.  If you can't see what to do I suspect it's better not to
try.

>  2) Does this have to be a 'good' job?  It looks to me like that
>     extender is going to take a LOT of stress and torque, so I bet
>     that however you do attach the extender, you have to do it _right_
>     or it'll fracture and break, no?

Yes - it should be a strong job.  Use a nice thick piece of steel bar
and make sure the welding penetrates properly.

-- 
Malcolm Roe                            Phone  :  +44 442 230000 ext 4104
Crosfield Electronics Ltd              Fax    :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead, Herts. HP2 7RH, UK    E-mail :  roe@crosfield.co.uk 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From samba!concert!gatech!taco!roberson Sat Mar 20 23:01:24 EST 1993
Article: 4902 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!taco!roberson
From: roberson@eos.ncsu.edu (JAMES D ROBERSON)
Subject: Re: State-of-the-Art Farm Technology (ca. 1954)
Message-ID: <1993Mar19.181102.9908@ncsu.edu>
Originator: roberson@water1.bae.ncsu.edu
Sender: news@ncsu.edu (USENET News System)
Reply-To: roberson@eos.ncsu.edu (JAMES D ROBERSON)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
References: <1993Mar17.181711.3125@mlfarm.com> <C44nqz.C46@world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 18:11:02 GMT
Lines: 14


In article <C44nqz.C46@world.std.com>, cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell) writes:

> (parts deleted)
> waiting for is for you-all to come down and visit and help us clean
> out *our* barn...  [anyone else who wants to come by and help is
> welcome too, of course...]
> 
>   /Bernie\
> 

Hmmm... Wonder how far Centerville, NC is from Pearisburg :-)

jim


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!thor.albany.edu!dfp10 Sat Mar 20 23:02:25 EST 1993
Article: 4906 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!thor.albany.edu!dfp10
From: dfp10@csc.albany.edu (D Parsons)
Subject: Last Call for Votes on sci.med.telemedicine
Message-ID: <1993Mar20.135433.230@sarah.albany.edu>
Originator: dfp10@thor.albany.edu
Sender: news@sarah.albany.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 13:54:33 GMT
Lines: 301

mass.ack       March 20, 1993

Re-post of the CALL FOR VOTES for the proposed Usenet News group:
                      sci.med.telemedicine
            Acknowledgement of Persons Voting Todate

Sent to UseNet News news.announce.newgroups, news.groups and
sci.med

CALL FOR VOTES for sci.med.telemedicine
(Second repeat call and acknowledgement, 1 week before the end of
the voting period)

Following a three week discussion period during which all
responses were favorable, here is the official Call for Votes to
create the group.

STATUS: unmoderated

CHARTER:  Discussion of computer networks that connect between
          hospitals and/or physician's offices, including
          international linkages between medical facilities in
          different countries.

          Subjects will include hardware and software for such
          networks, increased use of networks for transmission of
          text and image patient data, and help in use of e-mail
          for medical purposes.

          The group will be linked to the bitnet list
          hspnet-l@albnydh2.

VOTING PERIOD: The voting period started with the posting of this
          CFV, and lasts for 30 days.  Votes received after
          23:59:59 GMT on 25 day of March 1993 will not be
          counted.

          Each person has only one vote, even if they have
          multiple computer accounts.  Votes must be mailed to
          the vote-taker (Donald Parsons).  Posted votes will not
          be counted.

HOW TO VOTE: Vote by sending mail to dfp10@csc.albany.edu or
          dfp10@albnydh2.bitnet with the word YES or NO in the
          subject line.  If you use rn or a similar news reader,
          you can use r (reply), edit YES or NO into the Subject
          line, and mail it.  Ideally your vote would appear as
          one of the following:

     Subject: YES sci.med.telemedicine
     Subject: NO  sci.med.telemedicine

Votes which do not contain yes or no in the subject line will
cause extra work but still will be counted so long as they are
unambiguous.

Votes will be acknowledged by mail, but any acknowledgement that
bounces will not be re-tried.  There will be at least one mass
acknowledgement (this document) posted during the voting period. 
The final vote tally will be posted at the end of the vote,
including a list showing how everyone voted.

If you vote more than once from the same address, only the most
recent vote received will be counted as valid.  If you vote more
than once from different addresses in an apparent attempt at a
vote fraud, all your votes may be rejected, and this fact plus
your name published in the net.

RESULT: At the end of the voting period, there will be a period
          of five days from the posting of the result to allow
          any errors to be noted and corrected.  The group will
          be created if at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes
          are received, with at least 2/3 of the valid votes in
          favor.  If both the 100 vote margin and 2/3 majority
          are not met, the group will not be created.
--------------------------------------------------------------

List of voter names and addresses to date - March 20, 1993

     Mark Atwood              matwood@peruvian.cs.utah.edu
     Lucian Bachner-Lab.      Bachner@arthur.citi2.fr
     Bill Barbiaux            barbiaux@mr.med.ge.com
     Gary P. Barnas           barnas@post.its.mcw.edu
     Cameron R. Bass          crb7q@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu
     Dennis Bayomi            bayomi@bldghs.lan1.umanitoba.ca
     Gary Berg-Cross          garybc@chesapeake.ads.com
     Scott Berlon        meaddata!meaddata.com!scott@uunet.uu.net
     Thomas P. Bleck          tpb9k@galen.med.virginia.edu
     Giovanni Bortolian       brtgnn@ladseb.pd.cnr.it
     Whitney Bischoff         bischoff@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
     Alan Bleier              bleier@menu.visus.com
     Heather Bloom            hbloom@moose.uvm.edu
     Andy Brager              swc!wndrsvr!wndrsvr.la.ca.us!andyb
     Gerhard Brauer           brauer@uvvm.uvic.ca
     Michael Brian            michael@resonex.com
     Peter Bryner             p.bryner@phillip.edu.au
     Buchanan                 buchanan@bme1.utmem.edu
     Ron Burnett              ron@lis.rch.unimelb.edu.au
     Manish Butte             mjb@cs.brown.edu
     Ric Canale               ric_canale@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au
     Carlson                  carlson@ac.dal.ca
     Dave Carr                carr@acsu.buffalo.edu
     Juleen A. Cavanaugh      jac209@cscgpo.anu.edu.au
     Jason Chao               jxc19@slc8.ins.cwru.edu

     Jean-Luc Chatelain       jlc@adaclabs.com
     Christopher Chute        chute@mayo.edu
     Ernest A. Cline          cline@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu
     Maurizio Codogno         mcodogno@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Cologlu                  cologlu@trboun.bitnet
     Trevor Cradduck          cradduck@uwo.ca
     Bruce Curran             curran@stereo.medphysics.nemc.org
     Martin Czigler           mcz@sarnoff.com
     Aninda Gasgupta          add@philabs.philips.com
     M. Dab                   mdab0001@ac.dal.ca
     Odile David              u53732@uicvm.bitnet
     Dick Dean                hssdean@ouaccvmb
     Brian M. Delaney         bmdelane@midway.uchicago.edu
     W. Dockery               wdockery@yalemed.bitnet
     Franco Dosio             dosio@ch.unito.it
     Howard R. Doyle          doyle+@pitt.edu
     S. Dubin                 dubinse@duvm.bitnet
     John P. Duncan           jduncan@prism.nmt.edu
     Bernard Dumka            dumka@misfit.enet.dec.com
     Rolf Engelbrecht         engel@gsf.de
     Torie Estephan           estephan@ukanvm
     Elizabeth Evans          uevans@med.unc.edu
     Carlene J. Ewalt         ewalt001@staff.tc.umn.edu
     Ayman Fadel              afadel@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Farmacologica            Farmacologia@mvchss.cineca.it
     Allan G. Farman          agfarm01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
     Tim Ferguson             tim.ferguson@dartmouth.edu
     Aaron S. Field           u35162@uicvm
     Paul Fu                  quark@cs.bu.edu
     James E. Furguson        ferguson@gidday.enet.dec.com
     Andrew Finkenstadt       andy@vistachrome.com
     Jan I. Fox               dac001@marshall.mu.wvnet.edu
     Gregory C. Franklin      franklig@gas.uug.arizona.edu
     Joel Furr                jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Jay Gaeta                gaeta@mr.picker.com
     Baxter Garcia            baxter@balrog.aecom.yu.edu
     Ben Gardiner             ben@maggadu.queernet.org
     Donna Garfield           garfield@pebbles.software.org
     Thomas D. Gasser         thomasg@staff.tc.umn.edu
     Bob Geer                 bgeer@beorn.sim.es.com
     Peter-Ch Gentz           pcg@dhzb.de
     Daniel Gidez             dgidez@netcom.com
     Tony Gilmer              ag29@prism.gatech.edu
     Eric Gingold             eric@rad.uab.edu
     David E. Goggin          dt4%cs@hub.ucsb.edu
     Dennis H. Grant          0005307285@mcimail.com
     Mark A. Gunnell          gunnell@fcrfv2.ncifcrf.gov
     Mirsad Hadzikadic        mirsad@mosaic.uncc.edu
     Gail M. Hall             aa571@cleveland.freenet.edu
     P. Hamly                 phamly@ac.dal.ca
     Horst Hansen             horst@dhzb.de
     Robert Hansen            hansenr@ohsu.edu
     Mike Hatz                mhatz@nyx.cs.du.edu
     Hoang Tran-Dinh          bi_trandinh@coco.cchs.su.oz.au
     John W. Hober            jhoben@jwh.win.net
     Paul Hodgkinson          phh@dmu.ac.uk
     Carleton Hogan           carleton@gopher.ccbr.umn.edu
     Michael Holloway         mhollowa@ic.sunysb.edu
     Paul Hope                paulh@sbghrc.sbrc.umanitoba.ca
     Edward J. Huff           huff@mcclb0.med.nyu.edu
     R. Kent Hutson           khutson@cs.rice.edu
     Mark Huth                mhuth@u.washington.edu
     Hitesh J. Jasani         hitesh.jasani@sdrc.com
     V.Michael J Jelinek      jelinek@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au
     Michael A Johnston       maj%mdis1@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
     Barry T. Jones           barry@psy.gla.ac.uk
     V. "Juggy"Jagannathan    juggy@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu
     Antero Julkunen          julkunen@messi.uka.fi
     Roland Kaltefleiter      kaltef@theo-physik.uni-kiel.dbp.de
     Robert B. Kelly          rob@fammed.som.sunysb.edu
     Lawrence W. Killen       lawrence.w.killen@queensu.ca
     Mark D. Kline            mdkline@mailbox.syr.edu
     Bruce Klopfenstein       klopfens@andy.bgsu.edu
     Paul Knight              knight@hpindda.cup.hp.com
     Julia Shaw Kokot         jsk@med.unc.edu
     Barry Krawchuck          bdk01@albnydh2
     Michelle Koblas          michelle.koblas@itek.norut.no
     Stu Labovitz             stu@valinor.mythical.com
     Hsing-Tsu Lai            bmhtlai@twnas886.bitnet
     Carl Landis              ad198@yfn.ysu.edu
     Stephen Lau              lau@ai.sri.com
     Marjorie Lazoff          lazoff@vm.temple.edu
     George LeBlanc           turning_pt@umbsky.dnet
     Harold Lehman            lehman@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu
     John R. Lewis            vetdsmdv@utkvt1.vet.utk.edu
     James E. Levin           jlevin@simvax
     Allan Levy               a-levy@uiuc.edu
     Andrea Lieberherr        andreal@damon.ccs.northeastern.edu
     Bill Lord                bpl@philabs.philips.com
     Bob Lummis               lummis@alsys1.aecom.yu.edu
     J. Maurice Mahan         mahan@fiona.umsmed.edu
     Louis E. Mahoney         pooka@access.digex.com
     Gary Malet               gmalet@surfer.win.net
     Will Marchany            marchant@cea.berkeley.edu
     Charles D. Marcotta      cdm@idm.com
     Michael L. Marrin        marrin@mcmail.cis.McMaster.ca
     Glen Martin              martin@alsys1.aecom.yu.edu
     Maxwell                  maxwell@ac.dal.ca
     Jim McCord               3060jjm%ucsbuxa@hub.ucsb.edu
     Ed NcGuire               ed@intellection.com
     G. McKenna               gmckenna@ac.dal.ca
     Duncan McRae             duncanm@tplrd.tpl.oz.au
     Robin Meter              rmeter@unmcvm
     P.D.S.                   v136pds9@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
     J. Philip Miller         phil@wubios
     Richard Miller           rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu
     A.C. Mills               millsac@sluvca.slu.edu
     Alex Milshteyn           milsh@cipr-server.mgh.harvard.edu
     Dimitris Mitrakos        mitrakos@cperi.forth.gr
     Jochen R. Moehr          mohr@uvvm.uvic.ca
     Marc Moorcroft           @mail.uunet.ca:smarry@zooid
     Ignatz Mouse             ignatz@netcom.com
     Larry Nathanson          lan@panix.com
     Nease                    nease@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
     Fritz Nuernberg          fritz@dhzb.de
     Rusty Novotny            novotny%mrcbs@biomed.med.yale.edu
     David Nye                nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
     Jim Oberwetter           oberwetter@maui.hsc.colorado.edu
     Wolfgang Obst            wolfgang@dhzb.de
     Eric J. Olson            ejo@kaja.gi.alaska.edu
     Karl-Ake Omnell          omnell@u.washington.edu
     James D. Oliver III      oliver@athena.mit.edu
     George Oser              george=oser@msb@fpcm
     T. Ostbye                tostbye@uwovax.uwo.ca
     James O'Meara            jho02@albnydh2.bitnet
     J. Packer                packer@eos.phillip.edu.au
     Paul Palmer              robichau@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov
     Jerzy M. Paprocki        jmpapro@plbial11
     Greg Parham              gparham@demeter.esusda.gov
     Grace Patterson          grace@tupdean1.med.dal.ca
     Mark D. Phillips         phillips@pennsy.med.jhu.edu
     Michael Quinn            mjquinn@pucc.bitnet
     Chetan Premani           chetan@imtech.ernet.in
     Kevin Ray                kpr03@albnydh2
     David Ranson             davidr@brain.vifp.monash.edu.au
     Jeremy Rashbass          jeremy.rashbass@physiol.utas.edu.au
     Alfred Reid              areid@med.unc.edu
     Dave Remien              dave@pma386.inel.gov
     M.L. Rhoads              mlrhoads@ccit.arizona.edu
     Steve Richeimer          shr@anes.ucla.edu
     Wes Rishell              wes@wes.win.net
     Mary E. Rives            mrives@hibbes.vcu.edu
     Steve Robinson           ssrbh@cunyvm.cuny.edu
     Paul Robinson            tdarcos@access.digex.com
     Brian Rosen              br@marsmcro.visus.com
     Herman Rubin             hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
     Sabbatini                sabbatini@ccvax.unicamp.br
     Hom Sack                 hom@sackr.cambridge.ma.us
     Henni Saiah              hsaiah@ulys.unil.ch
     Chitima K. Saipetch      saipetch@cco.caltech.edu
     Jesus E. Sanchez-Pena    al198723@academ01.mty.itesm.mx
     Dale Sansing             dws@rs710.gsfc.nasa.gov
     Michel T. Semertzidis    semerz@lmcp.jussieu.\fr
     Avraham Shir-el (Sherman) avraham@eruvin.jct.ac.il
     Elihu M. Schimmel        schimmel.elihu_m_dr@boston.va.gov
     Leon Shugrue             shugrue@spatial.eid.anl.gov
     Robert Sideli            sidelir@cucis.cis.columbia.edu
     Joanne Silverstein       jlsilver@mailbox.syr.edu
     Scott C. Simmons         simmons@medics.jsc.nasa.gov
     Gordon Spoelhof          spoelhof@hsdmac006.hsd.kodak.com
     Daniel Starr             starr-daniel@yale.edu
     Rick Stahlhut            stahlhut@cps.msu.edu
     Mike South               south@cryptic.rch.unimelb.edu.au
     M.J. Stoddard            stoddard@ccit.arizona.edu
     Frank Sullivan           franksul@panix.com
     David Reeve Sward        sward+@cmu.edu
     David Talton             talton@sparkie
     Bruce Teeter             bruce@earth4.med.ge.com
     David Tilson             davidt@brain.vifp.monash.edu.au
     Tony Travis              ajt@rri.sari.ac.uk
     Stephen C. Trier         trier@slc6.ins.cwru.edu
     Takashi Tsutsui          tutui@silk.imel.kyoto-u.ac.jp
     Mark C. Tucker           mct@philabs.philips.com
     Patrick Tufts            zippy@berry.cs.brandeis.edu
     Edward Vielmetti         emv@garnet.msen.com
     Goyta F. Villela         infomed@ccvax.unicamp.br
     Timothy VanFossen        timv@ccad.uiowa.edu
     John C. vom Lehn         vomlehn@macgw1.crd.ge.com
     Wais server operator     waisguy@solomen.technet.sg
     Andre Wajda              roos5@darius
     Weindan                  weindan@hws.bitnet
     Martin S. Weinhouse      weinhous@castor.hahnemann.edu
     Dave White               davew@viper.gvg.tek.com
     Jim Whiting              whiting@cerf.net
     Thomas L. Willoughby     willoughby@vax1.umkc.edu
     Brendt Wohlberg          brendt@dip1.ee.uct.ac.za
     Amy Wong            ayywong@electrical.watstar.uwaterloo.ca
     Gregory Woodbury         wolves!ggw@duke.cs.duke.edu
     Bob Yazz                 yazz@prodnet.la.locus.com
     Cheung C. Yue            ccy@slc12.ins.cwru.edu
     Pietro Zanarini          pietro.zanarini@crs4.it
-- 
Donald F. Parsons MD, Wadsworth Ctr. Rm C273, NY State Dept of Health, ESP,
PO Box 509, Albany, NY 12201-0509. (518)474-7047 Fax: (518)474-7992 
UseNet: dfp10@csc.albany.edu; Internet: dfp10@uacsc2.albany.edu
Moderator: hspnet-l@albnydh2.bitnet (Consulting by hospital Networks)


From samba!concert!gatech!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!nobody Sat Mar 20 23:03:36 EST 1993
Article: 4907 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.consumers.house:30411 misc.rural:4907 rec.gardens:14704
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,misc.rural,rec.gardens
Path: samba!concert!gatech!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!nobody
From: ac388@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu (Jack Decker)
Subject: Wanted: Info & Catalogs on Trees/Plants for Shady & Sandy soil
Message-ID: <291@f8.n154.z1.fidonet.org>
Sender: nobody@ctr.columbia.edu
Organization: J. Random Misconfigured Site
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 19:16:20 GMT
X-Posted-From: via.musk.merit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
Lines: 96

I apologize if this is part of a FAQ, but I would like some
recommendations for catalogs, and for plants and trees that would do
well in the following situation.  I live in Michigan (we have COLD
winters here!) and have some property where the soil is mostly sand,
with little existing topsoil (only a shallow layer).  It seems to be
pretty well drained, though (the land is not the highest point in the
immediate area, but pretty close to it).  In addition, most of the
property is shaded by large White Oak trees growing on the property
(which I do NOT wish to cut).

No, I don't necessarily want to try to grow grass... I rather prefer a
more rustic look... but I might be inclined to try and plant some sort
of flowering ground cover.  I've read that Creeping Phlox is pretty
good for this purpose and will grow in many difficult conditions, and
wonder if anyone's had any experience with this plant?  Other
suggestions would also be appreciated.

Next, this is an area where fruit trees tend to do pretty well in
orchards, but of course orchards are sunny.  My property receives
little direct sun due to the tall oaks.  Should I forget about planting
any type of fruit trees, or are there varieties that do reasonably well
in shade (and will survive cold winters)?  Note that there are a couple
of places on the perimeter of my property that might receive a little
more sun, especially during the afternoon hours, so even tress that
would grow with limited sun (but not total shade) might be useful.  My
thinking is that I might like to plant a couple of Pear or Apple trees,
and would like recommendations on anything that's winter-hardy,
fast-growing, good-tasting, and fairly resistant to insects and disease
without spraying (yeah, I know... the Miracle Tree... okay, but how
close to that ideal can I reasonably expect to get?).

I'm also thinking of using shrubs as sort of a natural fence.  My local
Cooperative Extension Service (a division of the U.S. Department of
Agriculture, generally listed under the U.S.D.A. in the phone book) was
offering certain varieties of trees and shrubs in bulk for next to
nothing, so I ordered some Autumn Olive (which I know are fast-growing)
and some Blue Spruce (which I hope will be, but I love Blue Spurce so
I'm willing to give it a try).  But I'd also like to get something
that's more colorful and fragerent... maybe lilacs or some such.  Oak
trees are nice but not real colorful, so mainly I'm looking for
anything that will add color to my yard.  As I noted, a secondary
consideration is to try and make a sort of "natural fence", not to
really keep anything in or out but mostly to block the view of a
neighboring property.

To the home gardeners, will any vegetable plants do reasonably well in
sandy soil without a lot of constant tending?  Frankly, I'm not really
into gardening, other than maybe turning on the hose and throwing a
little water on a plant once in a while, but my wife had thought about
having a small garden until I explained to her that shady, sandy soil
was not exactly the correct mix for a thriving garden.  If I am wrong
about that, feel free to correct me!

Now, my final question, and the one I really would like to get input
on:  Where's the best place to buy this stuff without paying an arm an
a leg?  Certainly, you can't beat the U.S.D.A's prices on the stuff
they offer, but the selection is limited and you have to order a
minimum of at least 50(!) of any variety (well, they do offer a
"homeowner pack" with mixed varieties, I just didn't care for their
selection this year).  But where's the best place to buy other trees,
shrubs, etc.?  I'd particularly like pointers to any mail-order firms,
particularly those that:

1) Have the lowest prices,
2) Tell you what areas of the country various plants will grow in (so
   you don't do something stupid like order an ornamental cactus or a
   palm tree, plant it in Michigan and wonder why it won't grow!),
3) Have a toll-free ordering number,
4) Actually manage to ship healthy plants that arrive intact and grow,
   and that guarantee any that don't make it.

A decent catalog would be nice, but saving money *IS* an objective
here, and sometimes I think that they have to charge more when they
print fancy catalogs.

The funny part is that a few years back, when I lived on rented
property, I received several of those catalogs.  Now that I have some
property of my own, I wish I'd saved them.  I should point out that the
property in question is in a semi-rural area, and NOT a
recently-developed subdivision.  Property values here are not real high
(thankfully, because property taxes in Michigan ARE very high, and
going through the ceiling!).  So I'm not trying to do any true
"landscaping", just get some color onto the property.

Well, you get the picture.  Please reply by mail if possible, as I
don't usually receive these newsgroups.  However, I can FTP files, so
if there are text files explaining any of this, please feel free to
point me to the FTP sites.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Jack

Jack Decker | Internet: ac388@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
Fidonet: 1:154/8 or jack.decker@f8.n154.z1.fidonet.org
Note: Mail to the Fidonet address has been known to bounce. :-(


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!milano!electron.mcc.com!srogers Fri Apr  9 23:26:37 EDT 1993
Article: 4973 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!milano!electron.mcc.com!srogers
From: srogers@electron.mcc.com.mcc (Steve Rogers)
Subject: Re: Group Calls for Merger of Conservation
Message-ID: <1993Apr6.151950.3520@mcc.com>
Sender: news@mcc.com
Reply-To: srogers@electron.mcc.com.mcc
Organization: MCC, Austin, TX
References: <C50BxA.GFM@quake.sylmar.ca.us>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 15:19:50 GMT
Lines: 21

>>   WASHINGTON, April 1  -- American Farmland Trust
>>today strongly supported the consolidation of existing on-farm
>>conservation plans into a single comprehensive plan under the
>>authority of a total resource management agency called the
>Agricultural and Natural Resources Conservation Service.

>Can you say "Collective ownership of the means of production"?  By what
>right does the government presume to control the use of farmland in the
>first place?  It was bad enough when they controlled it piecemeal, but
>this finally completes the process of socializing farmland.

I have to agree.  That article was a very long-winded way of saying:
Freedom is a luxury we can no longer afford.  Now is the time for
the safety and security of total government control.

The Clinton administration is just the one to give it to them too.

---
| Steven Rogers    MCC/ESL  3500 West Balcones Center Drive
| srogers@mcc.com  Austin, Texas 78759-6509  (512) 338-3691



From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!uunet!uunet.ca!geac!r-node!ndallen Fri Apr  9 23:27:36 EDT 1993
Article: 4977 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural,dc.general
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From: ndallen@r-node.hub.org (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Gore to hold "town meeting" with Agriculture Department workers
Organization: R-node Public Access Unix - 1 416 249 5366
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 02:56:46 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Apr7.025646.24430@r-node.hub.org>
Lines: 87

Here is a press release from the Office of the Vice President

 Gore to Hold Town Meeting with Department of Agriculture Workers
 To: National and Assignment desks
 Contact: Heidi Kukis, 202-456-7035 or Julia Payne, 202-456-7036,
          both of the Office of the Vice President

   News Advisory:

   Vice President Gore will meet with federal and regional workers,
ask their views, and hear employees' ideas on making government
work for people Wednesday, April 7 at the U.S. Department of
Agriculture.  Satellite hookups will be available live from Vermont,
Texas, Wisconsin and Missouri.

   Continuing to reach out to federal workers as part of a national
effort to make government more effective and efficient, Vice
President Al Gore will join Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy
Wednesday, April 7, to listen to the ideas of department
workers here and in Vermont, Texas, Wisconsin, and Missouri
to talk about how to make their agency and the federal government
work better, harder and smarter for the American people.

   The Vice President will have a "town meeting" Wednesday, April 7
with Agriculture Department workers to focus on these questions.
Department employees from four regional offices in Vermont,
Texas, Wisconsin and Missouri also will take part through a live
satellite hookup, giving their views on how to streamline and
improve government services.

   The Vice President will arrive at the Agriculture Department
at 9:30 a.m. EDT, then meet with department employees at the
department's Atrium West Patio.

   Satellite coordinates:  Galaxy 6, Transponder 11, Audio
6.2/6.8. The town meeting will begin at 9:45 a.m. EDT.

   "Employees on the frontlines know better than anyone how
they could do their jobs better, saving money and time in the
process.  We need to hear their ideas about how their agency and
the federal government could be more effective and efficient,"
the Vice President said.  "We need to encourage new and
innovative ways of doing business where the customer -- the
American people -- comes first."

   "Quality management is practiced by the private sector
because every business knows that if you can't serve your
customers effectively and efficiently, then you're not doing your
job.  The federal government, too, must adopt quality in its
management if it wants to serve the American people responsibly,"
the Vice President said.

   Wednesday's meeting marks the second in a series of agency
visits in Washington, D.C., and nationwide to talk with federal
employees and listen to their suggestions.  As an important step
toward making government work better, President Clinton announced
in March the beginning of a six-month National Performance Review
the Vice President will direct to examine every federal agency
and expenditure to find ways to improve the federal government.

                 SCHEDULE FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT
      AGRICULTURE DEPARTMENT VISIT  Wednesday, April 7, 1993

9:30 a.m. EDT    THE VICE PRESIDENT ARRIVES at the Department of
                 Agriculture, met by Secretary Espy.

9:45 a.m. EDT     TOWN MEETING begins.
                  Department of Agriculture, Atrium West Patio.

10:45 a.m. EDT    VICE PRESIDENT visits with department employees
                  in the Cafeteria.

11 a.m. EDT       VICE PRESIDENT departs the Agriculture
                  Department.

   NOTE:  All press who wish to attend must have proper
identification from an accredited media organization.  The Secret
Service will begin credentialing for the event at 7 a.m. EDT at
the Department of Agriculture entrance, Independence Avenue, NW.

   Press who wish to attend the town meeting at regional
offices should contact the Agriculture Department branch in their
area.

 -30-
-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada    ndallen@r-node.hub.org


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!munnari.oz.au!csis!dubhe.anu.edu.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!usenet Fri Apr  9 23:28:32 EDT 1993
Article: 4983 of misc.rural
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From: Tony Arioli <arioli@rsbs0.anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Email address for Kubota Corp. Japan
Date: 7 Apr 1993 22:55:34 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1pvm56INNnn8@manuel.anu.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.39.104
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17
X-XXDate: Wed, 7 Apr 93 09:58:02 GMT

Does anyone have an email address for the: 
Kubota Corporation 
Farm and Industrial Machinery International Operation Headquarters
 2-47, Shikitsuhigashi 1-chome, Naniwa, Osaka 556 JAPAN.

Thanks for any help

Tony Arioli
Australian National University
Arioli@rsbs0.anu.edu.au


From samba!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!geoff Fri Apr  9 23:30:00 EDT 1993
Article: 4997 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: geoff@netcom.com (Geoffrey Leach)
Subject: Vegtable-based bar oil available
Message-ID: <geoffC583EJ.31G@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1993 15:37:31 GMT
Lines: 9

For all you chain-sawers, here's some environmental news.  According to the
current issue of Harrowsmith Country Life, a vegtable-base bar oil,
long in use in Europe, is now available in the US.  (All of that bar oil
that  you use winds up on the forrest floor.  Eeech!).  Its made in the
US and distributed as "ProForest Ban-and-Chain Lubricant" by Husqvarna.
Husqvarna Forest & Garden, 9006-J Perimeter Woods Drive, Charlotte NC 28216.
-- 
Geoffrey Leach		C/C++/X11/Motif/OpenLook Implementation
geoff@netcom.com


From samba!concert!uvaarpa!caen!nigel.msen.com!sdd.hp.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!haven.umd.edu!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron Wed Apr 14 12:35:39 EDT 1993
Article: 5028 of misc.rural
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From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Subject: Lambing FAQ (draft)
Message-ID: <1993Apr13.212813.23527@mlfarm.com>
Lines: 320
Sender: news@rosie.mlfarm.com
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
Distribution: misc
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 21:28:13 GMT

This is a first try.  I'd welcome comments, suggestions, additions,
and corrections.



		Frequently Asked Questions About Lambing
			version 1.0 - 13 April 1993


1.  What equipment and supplies do I need for lambing?

If everything goes right, and it does most of the time, you need
nothing more than:

   - a pair of surgical scissors, available from a drug store or
     vet supply;

   - a wide-mouthed bottle of 7% iodine solution;

   - a clean, dry, bedded pen for the ewe and her lamb(s).  The
     dimensions can range from 4x4 feet for smaller breeds to 5x5 feet
     for larger breeds, with a water bucket and a hay feeder for each
     pen.  For a small flock, plan on one pen for every five ewes; a
     larger flock can get by with one pen for every seven ewes.

It's a good idea to have the following available, just in case:

   - a baby bottle (4 or 8 oz.); use a heated needle to expand the
     hole in the nipple;

   - a tube feeder; vet supply houses sell them, or you can buy a
     rubber catheter and large syringe from a drug store;

   - a hair-dryer and/or a heat lamb;

   - 60cc. syringes, 20ga. needles, and a solution of electrolytes
     with 5-10% glucose;

   - shoulder-length plastic examining gloves;

   - a rubber or plastic bowl and Ivory liquid soap or an
     obstetric/vaginal lubricant;

   - Penicillin & syringes, or antibiotic vaginal boluses;

   - frozen colostrum from an earlier birth, or from a goat or cow;

   - warm, dry towels.


2.  How do I know when a ewe is ready to lamb?

No two ewes manifest the same signs.  Some wander off to a far corner
of a pasture, or find a corner of the barn.  Some will go off food.
Most will `drop' as the position of the uterus shifts lower in their
bodies, and hollow areas appear in their flanks; this is sometimes
hard to see in older ewes, who are `dropped' most of the time.  Ewes
usually `bag out' as milk develops in the udder within a day or two of
lambing.  As the ewe goes into labor, she may paw the ground as if
digging a nest, and is often restless, getting up, circling or moving
to a new spot, lying down, and repeating the cycle.  As she moves
further into labor, you can see contractions, the water (amnion) will
often break, and she may grit her teeth in pain.


3.  What do I have to do for a `normal' birth?

Most ewes can handle things pretty well.  Within four hours of the
onset of labor, the ewe will deliver a lamb and set to cleaning and
mothering it.  The vigorous licking is important stimulation to the
lamb, and helps trigger hormones that accelerate the development of
milk, contractions for twins or triplets, and the afterbirth.  If
you're there when the lamb is born -- and you should try to be --
clear any mucus from the lamb's nose and make sure it is breathing.
If it isn't, tickle the nostrils with a piece of straw.  If that
doesn't work, grab the lamb by both back legs and gently swing it in a
vertical circle over your head; the up and down movement of the
diaphragm as the lamb swings is an efficient artificial respiration.
Some shepherds use oxygen or even mouth-to-nose respiration to start a
lamb. c but most need little help beyond a tickle with straw.  Then,
allow the mother a few minutes to mother her lamb, before you CLIP,
DIP, and STRIP.

  - CLIP the lamb's umbilical cord within an inch of the lamb's navel.
  - DIP the umbilical cord in the iodine solution, making sure it it
    thoroughly covered with iodine.  
  - STRIP the ewe's teats, to make sure the wax plug is gone from both
    and milk (actually colostrom) comes out.

You may want to weigh the lamb, and on a very cold night, a hair-dryer
on the lamb's ears, or a heat lamp, can help.  Be careful with heat
lamps: they are dangerous, and too much time under the heat lamp can
encourage pneumonia.  It's not a good idea to dry the lamb too much;
letting the ewe do the work stimulates the lamb and encourages bonding
between them.

When the ewe is finished lambing, which can take a while for twins or
triplets, gently drag the lambs into the lambing pen.  The ewe will
follow the trail of smells in the bedding.  She will want a bucket of
water (warm if possible, adding a few tablespoons of molasses will
encourage her to drink) and a nice tab of hay.  She won't need grain
for a day or two, but should have free choice hay and plenty of water.
When you spot the afterbirth, usually from an hour to eight hours
after birth, remove it.


4.  How do I know if the ewe is going to have twins or triplets?

Sometimes you can tell in advance from the size of the ewe.  If
another lamb is coming, the ewe may get restless again, walking away
from her lamb, or lying down with contractions.  The second (or third)
amnion may break with another flood of fluid.  If a bag of reddish
fluid and a white wormlike tissue appears, it probably means she is
NOT going to have any more lambs that year.  Sometimes the only way to
be sure whether there is another lamb is to physically examine the ewe
with a glove and lubricant.  Unless something seems to be awry, it's
best not to interfere.


5.  What do I do if the ewe rejects her lamb?

Some rookie mothers don't know what to do; they drop a lamb and walk
away as if they had just pooped.  Putting the lamb in front of their
noses, or putting them into a pen with the lamb is usually enough.
You may have to help the lamb nurse the first time.  It usually works
better to nudge the lamb from behind, the way a ewe does, than to drag
it to a teat.  Tickling the lamb's bottom when it has the teat in its
mouth is usually enough to get it sucking.  A wagging tail on the
lamb, or the belly going in and out, is a sure sign the lamb is
getting milk (colostrum).

Some mothers will reject a lamb, often one of twins or triplets.  If
you hold the ewe so the lamb can nurse, either manually or by putting
her in a stanchion, after several days the ewe will usually begin to
accept the lamb.  The key for the ewe is the smell of the back end of
the lamb; after a few days, the ewe will detect her own milk.  Another
trick is to bring a dog into the barn.  Often, the instinct to protect
the lamb from the dog is strong enough to reestablish the bond of ewe
and lamb.  If the mother bashes the lamb as well as not allowing it to
nurse, you may have to take it away and bottle feed it.

Grafting a lamb to another mother, because the first mother lacks milk
or has too many lambs, is tricky.  There are many techniques: bathing
the graftee in amniotic fluids from the new mother, stanchions, tying
the feet of an older lamb so it won't seem too active.  It takes
patience and luck.  Ewes are smart, and even if they initially allow
the lamb to nurse, they often figure out that it isn't their lamb and
reject it.


6.  What if the lamb can't or won't nurse?

Make sure the ewe has colostrum by milking each teat.  If the ewe
wasn't shorn before lambing, or crutched, you may need to use hand
shears to clear some of the dung locks away so the lambs can find the
teats.  Lambs aren't the brightest little creatures, and will often
suck away on a tag of wet fleece instead of the teat.

The lamb may be too small, too cold, or too weak to nurse.  Put your
finger in the lamb's mouth to see if it is strong enough to suck.  If
it is, milk 2-4 ounces of colostrum from the mother into a baby
bottle.  Then, using a nipple that has had the hole widened with a hot
needle, feed the lamb two ounces at a time.  One or two feedings of
colostrum may be enough to jump start the lamb.

If the lamb is too weak to suck on your finger, tube feed two ounces
of colostrum.  You can buy ready-made tube feeders from vet supply
houses, or make your own from a surgical catheter and a large syringe.
Lubricate the tube with oil or warm water, measure how much tube it
takes to reach the lamb's rumen, and slide it down gently.  Stop
frequently and hold a wet finger over the other end of the tube; if
you feel air coming out, you're in the trachaea or lungs; pull out and
start again.

A really weak lamb may be dehydrated.  You can inject 30-50 ml. of
5-10% dextrose solution subcutaneously, in three or four spots (10 ml.
each) along the back and sides to rehydrate the lamb.

Whatever procedure or combination of procedures you follow, the lamb
should get only colostrum for the first eight to twelve hours.  If the
mother doesn't have any, use frozen colostrum saved from a ewe with a
single lamb, or colostrum from goats or cows.  


7.  How can I tell if a birth isn't going right?

If a ewe has been in labor for four hours without dilating enough to
deliver a lamb, if the lamb appears in an unbroken amnion, or if you
see indications of a presentation other than the normal two front feet
and the nose of the lamb together, the ewe may need help.

If the cervix of the ewe remains tight after prolonged labor, careful
manual massage may help, or she may need an injection of Oxytocsin to
induce contractions and to relax the cervix.

If a lamb appears in an unbroken amnion, use a fingernail to gently
break the the sack AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.  The danger is that the
lamb will take a breath inside the sack and drown.

If the presentation of the lamb is wrong, you will need to help.  Make
sure your fingernails are cut short, put on one or two long obstetric
examining gloves, and lubricate your gloved hand and arm in warm water
with dissolved Ivory soap, or with an obstetric lubricant.  The ewe
should be on her back or her side, with an assistant holding her back
legs.  Even ewes who are normally shy are often cooperative when
you're helping them with lambing, but you want to hold her still.
Ease up when she has a contraction, so you aren't fighting her; the
contractions are strong enough to clamp hard on your arm.  You will be
working by feel, so try to imagine what is connected with what as you
_gently_ work your fingers up the vaginal canal.

Some situations are relatively easy.  If one leg and the head present,
you can usually turn the lamb slightly and ease one shoulder out.  If
the lamb is in breech position (fanny first), hurry it out so it
doesn't drown in amniotic fluids when the cord breaks.  If the
presentation is head first without the front legs, gently push the
head back in and sort out the hooves so they come out the canal with
the head.  Sometimes twins are tangled.  Gently and sort out the twin
closest to the cervix into a proper presentation.  It's a good idea
for a person with a relatively small hand to do the job.  Above all,
be _gentle_.  Some presentations, like a transverse lamb at the
cervix, are jobs for an experienced vet.

If you have intervened, even with a sterile glove, you probably want
to give the ewe either a uterine antibiotic bolus or an injection of
Penicillin afterwards.


8.  What medications do the ewe and lamb need after birth?

Ewes are susceptible to worms after lambing, and should be given a
dose of wormer the next day.  If you had to intervene to assist the
birth, the ewe may need an antibiotic series.  If the afterbirth isn't
expelled within twelve hours, you may want to give the ewe an injection
of Oxytocsin.

Local conditions will determine what, if any, medication the lambs
need.  If you didn't dip the navel in iodine immediately after birth,
you may want to give the lambs a precautionary injection of
Penicillin.  If your pastures and feed are selenium-deficient, and
you've had lambs develop white-muscle disease, you may want to inject
lambs with BOSE (Selenium & vitamin E supplement).  If you've had
pneumonia problems with lambs, you may want to administer PI-3, a
nasal vaccine approved for cows, at birth.  If the ewes weren't
vaccinated with CD/T before lambing, you should vaccinate the lambs
early; otherwise, wait until the lambs are at least a month old before
their first vaccination with CD/T.  The tetanus part of CD/T may only
be necessary if you have equines on your farm or other indications of
tetanus.

A few days after birth, and before the lambs are out of the lambing
pens, you will want to do the tails, ear tags or tatoos, and possibly
castrate ram lambs that are not going to be bred.


9.  How long should the lambs and mothers stay in the lambing pens?

A veteran with a strong single lamb could come out after twenty-four
hours.  Rookies, and ewes with multiple lambs, should stay in for two
or three days, until the ewes have thoroughly bonded with their lambs.
Sometimes, if you let them out early, the lambs can get lost, or ewes
can forget their lambs in the rush for feeders.  You might have to put
them back for another day or two.

After the ewe and lambs leave the pen, clean it out as much as
possible, lime thoroughly with hydrated lime, and rebed with fresh
straw before the next tenants move in.


10.  What do I do with orphans?

Lambs without mothers, or whose mothers don't have enough milk for
them, can be raised on milk-replacer.  For the first twelve hours, the
lambs should have only colostrum.  Then, one option is to put them in
a pen with free-choice cold milk-replacer from a bucket with nipples.
The other choice is to feed warm milk-replacer from a bottle, which
will allow the lamb to stay with its mother, who may have some milk.
The lamb may learn to sneak milk from other mothers too.  For the
first few days, the lamb shouldn't get more than four ounces per
feeding, six times a day.  You can then gradually increase the amount
and decrease the number of feedings per day.  After two weeks, two or
three bottles a day is plenty.  Baby bottles work best for little
lambs.  Later, beer or soda bottles with lamb nipples are fine.  More
than 12-16 ounces in a feeding is likely to induce scours.  Unless you
like chasing lambs all hours of the night with a bottle, encourage
bottle babies to eat grain and leafy alfalfa in the creep as young as
possible, so you can wean them early.

Some lambs need a little help but not a complete bottle regimen.  The
runt of triplets, or even of twins, may need a bottle or two a day to
keep up.  You can usually see when one lamb isn't getting a fair
share; hungry lambs are often hunched up, they cry; if they're really
hungry, their mouths will be cold.  Sometimes a bottle or two will get
them going again, or they may need a bottle or two a day.


11.  What care do lactating ewes need?

A good ewe pours so much of the nutrition she consumes into milk that
it is difficult for her to maintain her weight.  You want to give her
energy-rich grain, a pound a day for ewes with singles, as much as two
pounds per day for ewes with twins and triplets, the highest protein
hay you have, such as good leafy alfalfa or early-cut timothy, and
plenty of clean fresh water.  If you're lambing in late spring, the
ewes may do fine on fresh pasture.  You should also check the udders
of the ewes daily, watching for signs of mastitis.  A hot red bag, or
a cold blue bag, are bad signs.  If you detect mastitis, treat as soon
as possible with antibiotics, both systemic and applied directly by
teat infusion.  It may help to milk out a bad teat.


12.  Why do ewes need help lambing?  Wild animals do it without help.

Sheep aren't wild animals anymore.  The sheep we raise have been bred
to produce multiple-births and big, fast-growing lambs.  Most of the
time, they can give birth without help, and do a marvelous job of
taking care of their lambs.  When the lambs are too big, or if there
are more lambs than the mother's milk can support, we help out.  In
return, we get the pleasure of watching the miracle of birth and one
of the strongest and loveliest bonds in nature.
-- 

				Ronald Florence
				ron@mlfarm.com


From samba!concert!gatech!paladin.american.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza Thu Apr 15 14:48:20 EDT 1993
Article: 5037 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Burning stumps with KNO3?
Message-ID: <C5HKtF.6Mo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <25260048@hpcvra.cv.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 18:31:58 GMT
Lines: 38

In article <25260048@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus) writes:
>Speaking of obnoxious stumps, has anyone had any luck
>with getting an old stump to absorb potassium nitrate
>and then getting the stump to burn like a cigarette.
>
>I've tried mixing up potassium nitrate and water
>and leave about a quart of the stuff in a cutout 
>in the stump, but it doesn't seem to improve
>burning all that much.
>
>Any tips from the expert stump busters out there?
>(We're talking 24"-48" fir/oak stumps.)

Drill a bunch of large diameter holes fairly shallow on top of the
stump, and one in the center that goes below ground level.  The idea
here is that the end of the grain in the wood will absorb the liquid
and run it throughout via capillary action faster that it will from a
center "pit".  Also, if the stump was cut down in the last year or so
it may not absorb liquid as readily because the roots will still be
sending sap up.  In that case the ideal time to soak it is in the
fall.  After you put ~10lbs or so of KNO3 in the stump and it's had a
while to dry you then drill several "vent" holes in the sides that
intersect the base and take a propane torch to the vent holes and the
top center one and the stump will literally eat itself.

I don't personally like burning em out.  I prefer to dig, blast, or
cut them out.  A seperate chain and bar for the saw that is only used
to cut out stumps is a must because they'll wear very fast.  I can
take out a 24" stump in a couple hours of very hard work by digging
and chopping, less if I use the saw.  Blasting is faster yet, but
impractical around buildings and the like.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#CIANSAKGBFBI
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#ASSASINATEDEA
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #NAZIPLUTONIUM
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #PRESIDENTFEMA


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!hawnews.watson.ibm.com!tromaville.manassas.ibm.com!dave Sat May  1 11:59:47 EDT 1993
Article: 5132 of misc.rural
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From: dave@tromaville.manassas.ibm.com ()
Subject: Free Ranging Fowl
Sender: news@hawnews.watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster)
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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 13:27:59 GMT
Reply-To: irby@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM.
Nntp-Posting-Host: tromaville.manassas.ibm.com
Organization: IBM, Federal Systems Company
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Hi,
  I'm looking for some information that goes into detail about
free-ranging chickens, ducks and/or geese.  I've read a couple of books
("Raising Poultry the Modern Way" and "The Home Duck Flock") but so far they
have just given passing mention to free ranging.  I've never raised any fowl
before and I feel that I need more detailed information.  I think I would like 
to free range to save on feed costs but I'm really not sure what the drawbacks 
are (eggs harder to find maybe??).  I saw some plans in Eliot Coleman's 
"New Organic Grower" for a movable chicken house (on skids) that he uses to
free range chickens on pasture land and I've read some articles in magazines
about using birds as weeders which sounds interesting. If you know of a good
book or have some experience/advice to share I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
dave. 
-- 
David Irby   irby@vnet.ibm.com

Dammit Jim! - All ideas and opinions expressed herein are my own. 


From samba!concert!rock!taco!gatech!usenet.ufl.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!appserv.Eng.Sun.COM!appserv!andy Sat May  1 12:12:54 EDT 1993
Article: 5152 of misc.rural
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From: andy@elviss.eng.sun.com (Andrew Davidson)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Free Ranging Fowl
Date: 27 Apr 93 09:54:38
Organization: MASTERS OF THE KNOWN UNIVERSE
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <ANDY.93Apr27095438@elviss.eng.sun.com>
References: <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> <1993Apr26.185937.6971@mlfarm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: elviss
In-reply-to: ron@mlfarm.com's message of Mon, 26 Apr 1993 18:59:37 GMT

In article <1993Apr26.185937.6971@mlfarm.com> ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence) writes:

   Newsgroups: misc.rural
   Path: appserv.Eng.Sun.COM!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!sun-barr!olivea!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron
   From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
   Lines: 16
   Sender: news@rosie.mlfarm.com
   Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
   References: <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com>
   Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 18:59:37 GMT

   dave@tromaville.manassas.ibm.com () writes:

	I'm looking for some information that goes into detail about
      free-ranging chickens, ducks and/or geese.... I'm really not sure
      what the drawbacks are (eggs harder to find maybe??). 

   We free-range our few chickens.  The drawbacks are that they sometimes
   hide their eggs until we discover the new hiding place, and they
   sometimes make a beeline for new plantings in the gardens.  One year
   newly planted zinnias disappeared overnight.  For the next week, the
   chickens laid purple eggs.

   For much of the year we don't have to feed the chickens, the only
   clean-up is under their roost, they seem to do a good job on weeds,
   grubs, and other nasties, and the eggs are delicious and attractive,
   with deep yellow yolks that are nothing like storebought eggs.
   -- 

				   Ronald Florence
				   ron@mlfarm.com


What about flies? I have heard that free range chickens are great at
reducing flies around that barn yard. I have also heard that they
create more flies than they eat?

Andy


From samba!concert!gatech!news.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!corwin!james Sat May  1 12:19:09 EDT 1993
Article: 5154 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!news.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!yktnews.watson.ibm.com!corwin!james
From: james@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (James White)
Subject: Re: Free Ranging Fowl
Sender: news@rchland.ibm.com
Message-ID: <1993Apr28.141230.35588@rchland.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 14:12:30 GMT
Reply-To: JamesWhite@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
References: <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> <1993Apr26.185937.6971@mlfarm.com> <ANDY.93Apr27095438@elviss.eng.sun.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: corwin.rchland.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Rochester
Lines: 28

Well I am certainly not an expert on free range chickens, but I do have some
observations about my flock.

First, since they are free ranging they can get to and poop on places you
would never dream they would go to.  So watch where you put your hands.  They
often walk into my garage just to dump.

Second, they do like to hide their eggs.  Especially batum chickens.  Mine
used to lay them out in the field.  You haven't lived until you stepped on a
year old field egg.

Third, the roosters are free ranging also.  This means that if they wish to
attack a small child wearing red.  Well, that option is available.  Our flock
is now roosterless due to just this.  Now I'm not saying the rooster was all
bad, since he was good for about three meals.

Fourth, the eggs are wonderful.  Green, reddish, white, pink, brown.  Who needs
to color Easter eggs when the hens lay them that way.  Around our house,
everyday is another Easter egg hunt.

I look forward to the time my childern are a few years older so they can
defend themselves against all the wierd animals I wish to have running around
my place.  For now a few hens, caged rabbits, sheep, and turkeys will have to
do.

-- 

James White 


From samba!concert!rock!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!vaxeline.ftp.com!nobody.ftp.com!dragonbreath Sat May  1 12:21:03 EDT 1993
Article: 5158 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!rock!taco!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!vaxeline.ftp.com!nobody.ftp.com!dragonbreath
From: jbvb@vax.ftp.com  (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: Protecting my cabin in the woods
Message-ID: <930428150821@nobody.ftp.com>
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Keywords: power lines
Lines: 18        
Sender: root@vaxeline.ftp.com (vaxeline.ftp.com root account)
Nntp-Posting-Host: whipped-cream.ftp.com
Reply-To: jbvb@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., North Andover, Massachusetts
References: <3016@sousa.tay.dec.com> <ln21531.10@sander.lockheed.com> <930426172701@cream.ftp.com> <ln21531.13@sander.lockheed.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 15:08:21

In article <ln21531.13@sander.lockheed.com> ln21531@sander.lockheed.com (Jan Marshall) writes:

    BTW - When I walk the dogs under the lines and it's raining out, all of us
    have hair that stands up on end.  If I hold my umbrella up, the spokes
    shoot out little blue arcs where the spokes meet.  (Don't worry, I wear
    my rubber boots).  If I put the umbrella down, my forehead tingles with
    electricity.  The lines HUMMMM alll the time.  You can hear them round the
    clock.  When it's raining though, they SIZZLE.  Kinda neat.  I'm either
    going to die well preserved at a ripe old age, or fry before my time.

There is a body of opinion that strong electric and magnetic fields are not
too good for you.  Widgets for measuring them are available from Real Goods,
among other places.  How far is the line from your house, and what is the
configuration of the wires (a triangle generates less field than all three
wires running side-by-side)?

James B. VanBokkelen		2 High St., North Andover, MA  01845
FTP Software Inc.		voice: (508) 685-4000  fax: (508) 794-4488



From samba!concert!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!sun13!ds8.scri.fsu.edu!jac Sat May  1 12:22:16 EDT 1993
Article: 5161 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.rural:5161 rec.gardens:16231
Path: samba!concert!gatech!mailer.cc.fsu.edu!sun13!ds8.scri.fsu.edu!jac
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Can compost get too hot?
Message-ID: <12634@sun13.scri.fsu.edu>
Date: 28 Apr 93 19:43:07 GMT
References: <1993Apr17.161258.28624@mlfarm.com> <f161Mpt@quack.kfu.com> <C63K3C.A3r@apollo.hp.com>
Sender: news@sun13.scri.fsu.edu
Followup-To: misc.rural
Organization: Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Lines: 22

In article <f161Mpt@quack.kfu.com> pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>
>   ...         "Spontaneous Combustion," something once blamed on witches 
>is also possible.

In article <C63K3C.A3r@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>  I'm skeptical about this.  Wood and other cellulose-based 
>  materials require a temperature of about 420 degrees (F) to
>  ignite, but what biological process will continue to occur
>  above approx. 200 degrees?     

Try explaining your skepticism to the farmer whose barn burned down 
because it contained hay that was cut and baled while wet.  What 
happens is that the heat from the biological process will initiate 
an oxidation reaction that leads to a fire.   

--
J. A. Carr       <jac@scri.fsu.edu>           |  "The New Frontier of which I  
Florida State University  B-186               |  speak is not a set of promises
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Tallahassee, FL  32306-4052                   |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)


From samba!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!asuvax!ennews!mcdphx!schbbs!mothost!white!rtsg.mot.com!blazer9!sticha Sat May  1 12:23:11 EDT 1993
Article: 5162 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!asuvax!ennews!mcdphx!schbbs!mothost!white!rtsg.mot.com!blazer9!sticha
From: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Subject: Re: Free Ranging Fowl
Message-ID: <1993Apr28.224927.6978@rtsg.mot.com>
Sender: news@rtsg.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: blazer9
Reply-To: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
References:  <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1993 22:49:27 GMT
Lines: 43

news@hawnews.watson.ibm.com writes:
>  I'm looking for some information that goes into detail about
>free-ranging chickens, ducks and/or geese.  I've read a couple of books
>("Raising Poultry the Modern Way" and "The Home Duck Flock") but so far they
>have just given passing mention to free ranging.  I've never raised any fowl
>before and I feel that I need more detailed information.  I think I would like 
>to free range to save on feed costs but I'm really not sure what the drawbacks 
>are (eggs harder to find maybe??).  I saw some plans in Eliot Coleman's 
>"New Organic Grower" for a movable chicken house (on skids) that he uses to
>free range chickens on pasture land and I've read some articles in magazines
>about using birds as weeders which sounds interesting. If you know of a good
>book or have some experience/advice to share I would appreciate it.

I've been free ranging my chickens for four summers now. The benefits include
reduced feed, healthier birds and better tasting eggs. The downside is reduced
egg laying (can't find them all and they use a lot of energy scratching for a
living) and losses due to raccoons, possums, feral cats, and my retriever.
Generally, if I let them out (in an enclosed area if the dog is out, free if she's not) first thing in the morning and remember to lock them up 1/2 hour
before sunset, I have no problems. While they are out, I keep the coop door shut.

My garden is within the 20X20 confines of the chicken yard. I fall sow a cover
crop and let the chickens start on that early in the spring. It also trains
them to stay close to the roost. Always count heads before closing the door for
the night and shoo any inside that have an inclination to roost anywhere else.
After two weeks, my flock of a dozen or so has usually stripped the fall cover
crop to the bare earth and has redeposited it in the form of droppings. I then
turn the garden area over by hand (the soil is butter soft) and plant my early
crops. The chickens then switch to foraging outside the yard. Again, count heads
at night and find any that are trying to go wild. The retriever is good at this.
After the early stuff is cashed in I let the chickens back in for a week or so
and they cleanup the leftovers. I then plant warm weather stuff and the cycle
continues. 

Throughout the summer I keep their feeder filled with laying mash
but it lasts a long time because they don't bother with it except for rainy days.
I also feed them table scraps through out the year, except for meat. Also fruit
cores, rinds, stale (not moldy) bread, etc. In short, any non animal based
organic matter. They do have a tendency to gobble the landscaping and occasionally
mess the porch or patio with their droppings. But the benefits I mentioned above
far outweigh the bad things. Finally, I just enjoy watching them. I've heard
people refer to this form of entertainment as "chicken tv".

Dave Sticha


From samba!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron Sat May  1 12:29:17 EDT 1993
Article: 5169 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!rosie!ron
From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Subject: Re: Free Ranging Fowl
In-Reply-To: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU's message of Wed, 28 Apr 1993 22:49:27 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Apr29.185539.10650@mlfarm.com>
Lines: 15
Sender: news@rosie.mlfarm.com
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
References: <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> <1993Apr28.224927.6978@rtsg.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 18:55:39 GMT

David A. Sticha writes:

   I fall sow a cover crop and let the chickens start on that early in
   the spring. ...  After two weeks, my flock of a dozen or so has
   usually stripped the fall cover crop to the bare earth and has
   redeposited it in the form of droppings.

Another option is a `Dutch Roto-Tiller.'  Build a one-meter on a side
cubic frame and cover every side but one with chicken wire.  Put a
couple of chickens inside with the open side down on the garden site.
When the chickens have tilled, weeded, and fertilized that square
meter, move the cube to an untilled area.  In a few days, the whole
garden is done.

We've never tried it.  The chickens like our gardens too much as is.
-- 

				Ronald Florence
				ron@mlfarm.com


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uunet!digex.com!news.intercon.com!psinntp!witch!east-wind!jay Sat May  1 12:44:56 EDT 1993
Article: 5191 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: jay@east-wind.win.net (Jay Miller)
Subject: Re: Free Ranging Fowl
In-Reply-To: andy@elviss.eng.sun.com's message of 27 Apr 93 09:54:38
Message-ID: <JAY.93Apr30132247@east-win.east-wind.win.net>
Sender: jay@east-wind.win.net (Jay Miller)
Organization: East Wind Community, Tecumseh, Missouri, USA
References: <C63Eqn.u0L@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> <1993Apr26.185937.6971@mlfarm.com>
	<ANDY.93Apr27095438@elviss.eng.sun.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 19:22:47 GMT
Lines: 36

Regarding free-ranging chickens (I don't know anything about ducks
or geese, I would like to know more about ducks):

I tend the chickens here at East Wind.  We have something I've heard
referred to as an "eggmobile".  It's great.  It's a house on wheels,
ours is about 12' x 18' with 32 nest boxes around the sides, and roosts
inside.  The chickens get into the nest boxes from the inside and they
open up outside to collect the eggs.  Every morning we go out and open
the coop.  The chickens come out and scratch around and eat bugs and 
worms and the like.  We still give them feed, which we put inside the 
coop, so they keep going inside.  At night, they like having a place to
roost, so they go inside.  Someone goes out at dusk and closes up the 
house.  At first you have some of them wanting to roost underneath the
coop, so you have to climb underneath and get them out.  Eventually they
learn and all go inside.  The only time this is trouble is when the coop
is near trees, which they like roosting in almost as well.

We find this to be a great system.  We figured that we get 2/3 the eggs
but provide 1/2 the feed, so we come out ahead.  I'm told that the eggs
have been much healthier since we started doing this, but I wasn't around
before so I don't know.

If you move the coop frequently enough (every 2 weeks or more often) then
the pasture doesn't get too messed up in one spot, and actually thrives
from all the chicken litter being spread on it.  If you have them in a 
pasture with cows, they scratch up the cow patties to get maggots, cutting
down on flies and spreading the manure.
--
--------------------------------------------
Jay Miller               East Wind Community
jay@east-wind.win.net    Tecumseh, MO  65760
--------------------------------------------
-- 
--------------------------------------------
Jay Miller               East Wind Community
jay@east-wind.win.net    Tecumseh, MO  65760


From samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!Freenet.carleton.ca!ae446 Wed May  5 23:49:35 EDT 1993
Article: 5231 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.rural:5231 soc.libraries.talk:606
Newsgroups: misc.rural,soc.libraries.talk
Path: samba!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!Freenet.carleton.ca!ae446
From: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Subject: American Farmland Trust Named Nation's First Private Farmland Info Center
Message-ID: <1993May4.221440.25948@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
Reply-To: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 22:14:40 GMT
Lines: 64


Here is a press release from American Farmalnd Trust.

 American Farmland Trust Named Nation's First Private Farmland Info Center
 To: National Desk
 Contact: Ed Thompson or Gary Kozel, 202-659-5170, both of
          American Farmland Trust

   WASHINGTON, May 4  -- The National Agricultural Library 
has selected American Farmland Trust as the nation's first
private Farmland Information Center.
   AFT, a national farmland conservation group based in Washington,
D.C., will work closely with the agricultural library to create a
state-of-the-art, electronically based farmland information storage
and retrieval system readily accessible to the public.  AFT's
research and education facility in DeKalb Ill., will administer
the center.
   Farmland information centers were authorized by the Farmland
Protection Policy Act of 1981.  The measure committed the federal
government to safeguarding the nation's agricultural land resources
against unnecessary conversion and charged the centers with
ollecting and distributing information on farmland loss and
protection.  At present, the USDA's Soil Conservation Service
estimates the U.S. is losing more than 2 million acres of
productive farmland annually.
   "We are delighted with our selection," said AFT President Ralph
E. Grossi.  "The Farmland Information Center will give researchers,
policy-makers, institutions and land users a better understanding
of farmland conservation and protection by providing quick and easy
access to one of the most comprehensive and organized collections
of data, literature and other information on the nation's
agricultural land resources."
   Founded in 1980 by a group of farmers and conservationists, AFT
has assembled a strong collection of information on agricultural
land resources.
   AFT expects to collect and distribute information on the types,
classifications and location of farmland, soils and related natural
resources; urban development and growth patterns affecting
aricultural land use and its impact on the environment; planning
and other tools for farmland protection; and the economic, social
and environmental costs of protecting farmland.  The collection
will include databases, popular periodicals, technical journals,
research results and on-going research.  Later AFT anticipates
expanding its informational resources into other areas, including
agricultural practices and their impact on the environment, land
use and the farm economy and sustainable agriculture techniques.
   American Farmland Trust is a private, nonprofit membership
organization working to stop the loss of productive farmland and
promote farming practices that will lead to a healthy environment.
AFT's National Office is at 1920 N St., N.W., Suite 400,
Washington, D.C. 20036.
 -30-
  
Disclaimer from NDA: I don't work for AFT or USDA. Contact them
directly if you want more information.


-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada  ae446@freenet.carleton.ca


From samba!concert!gatech!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!sserve!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim Wed May 19 13:52:00 EDT 1993
Article: 5382 of misc.rural
Xref: samba misc.rural:5382 rec.gardens:17216
Newsgroups: misc.rural,rec.gardens
Path: samba!concert!gatech!darwin.sura.net!wupost!uunet!munnari.oz.au!newshost.anu.edu.au!sserve!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim
From: rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Bob McKay)
Subject: Re: Can compost get too hot?
Message-ID: <1993May17.032037.16768@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au>
Sender: news@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia
References: <C63K3C.A3r@apollo.hp.com> <1993Apr27.093009@orion.IntelliCorp.COM> <C6BA1G.Kwz@apollo.hp.com> <C6n7Jp.Hu3@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 03:20:37 GMT
Lines: 33

snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu (John Snyder) writes:

>>>In article <C63K3C.A3r@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>>|> 
>>>|>   I'm skeptical about this.  Wood and other cellulose-based 
>>>|>   materials require a temperature of about 420 degrees (F) to
>>>|>   ignite, but what biological process will continue to occur
>>>|>   above approx. 200 degrees?     
>>>|> 
>>>|> ---peter

(Hope I sorted out the nested attributions right - apologies if not). Peter's
raised a fascinating point, and got me really thinking about this, as I've
grown up on stories of spontaneous combustion. Pretty commonsense folk, who
invested an awful lot of effort in checking the temperatures of their stacks,
and tried hard to make sure they weren't stacked too green. So I'm certainly
disinclined to discount their belief. My best bet? Well, a green stack is 
going to contain lots of stuff other than cellulose; in particular, by the 
time the bugs have been working for awhile, there'll be an awful lot of 
alcohols and esters floating around, some of which will have quite low
ignition temperatures. Also methane and maybe hydrogen. Certainly the temps
won't need to be anything like 420F for ignition (though it's only once the
temp gets up to there that you'll get a runaway fire, of course). I don't
know if any of those would have ignition temps in the biological range, but
even if not, there's also the possibility of catalysis boosting the
temperature above that attained by bio processes

      Cheers
	Bob McKay

-- 
Bob McKay		   	Phone:	+61 6 268 8169	    fax: +61 6 268 8581
Dept. Computer Science,ADFA, Northcott Dve, Campbell ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA	


