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Article: 6026 of misc.rural
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From: nathan@cse.ucsc.edu (Nathan J. Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.pets,misc.rural
Subject: Seeking info on New Zealand rabbits
Date: 1 Aug 1993 17:23:43 GMT
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I'm looking for a pair of New Zealand Red rabbits.  I have heard that
there is a New Zealand rabbit club but don't know how to get in touch
with them.  Any pointers would be great!

Thanks,
-Nathan
nathan@taurus.apple.com


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!hank Sun Aug  1 21:39:42 EDT 1993
Article: 5959 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Re: Hazelnut Farm - Am I nuts?
Message-ID: <hankCAuJzo.9pE@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
References: <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 23:31:00 GMT
Lines: 20


Have a look at the      gopher well.sf.ca.us

Look in the Whole Earth Review articles directory for a file called
"Kill More Trees" by Phil Rutter, who owns Badgersett Research Farm
and is happily producing new and interesting varieties of both
hazelnuts and chestnuts.  He's also involved with the Northern Nut
Growers group which is a font of information.  You can write to his
family farm -- address is in the gopher file, regret I don't have
it handy (send them something for their newsletter, I think he
would dearly love to get some native hazelnuts or chinquapins that
flourish in wet or boggy soils for crossbreeding, for instance; or
check your local library for Whole Earth Review (December '92 I think)
for his article; for mention of Northern Nut Growers in the Magazine
Index, etc.)

There are some blights known; breeding for resistance is going OK.
I can't speak to the market prices but expect the nut growers can
advise you.  Sounds like big fun to me, wish I were in a position to
do the same.


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!white!rtsg.mot.com!blazer9!sticha Sun Aug  1 21:41:51 EDT 1993
Article: 5979 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Subject: Re: Earthships & Rammed Earth
Message-ID: <1993Jul27.221927.9801@rtsg.mot.com>
Sender: news@rtsg.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: blazer9
Reply-To: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
References:  <1993Jul24.202604.8696@cnsvax.uwec.edu> <1993Jul26.145217.259@nntp.nta.no>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:19:27 GMT
Lines: 12

>I'd like to find out about more details about rammed earth building.  Any
>pointers or information anyone?

Countryside and Small Stock Journal magazine published by jd Belanger had an
article last year or year before on rammed earth construction. In follow up mail
several issues later was a source for a rammed earth brick making machine. The
jist was that the soil must be as free of organic material as possible (just
the opposite of what most people want for gardening) and with a very small clay
content (holds too much water). Sorry but I don't have the address handy. If
interested, just email me.
Dave
sticha@rtsg.mot.com


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!butch!LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM!J103680 Sun Aug  1 21:43:54 EDT 1993
Article: 5984 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Sustainable land use
Message-ID: <93209.63285.J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
Sender: news@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:34:45 PDT
Lines: 49

Does anyone know of research comparing the producing capacity
per acre of organic crop output to the capacity using current
crop farming methods in America?  The answer to this question
has relevance not only to the quality of the rural environment
but also to the quality of future American life.

My folks live in farming country in the Midwest and I've noticed
a few things:

1. earthworms no longer live in most farm fields
2. more organic material is removed from fields than returned
3. much of soil in farm fields is acquiring more of a claylike
   texture
4. wind erosion from fall plowing is extensive
5. fish have disappeared from most streams and ditches due to
   chemical runoff from fields
6. summers in the Midwest seem to be growing more humid
7. very little animal or insect life remains in crop field soil
8. more rural acreage is being paved each year
9. rabbits and gamebirds have experienced greatly reduced
   population densities in wooded areas

I feel that if we feed the soil, that it will feed us in harmony.
I feel our government is subsidizing the exportation of our soil's
producing capacity to the Soviets each fall at the expense of our
children and grandchildren.
I feel the only sane policy for sustainable land use is to shift
into the producing capacity that the land itself can provide using
modern equipment but with organic methods.
I feel that our current major weather abberations are due to the
earth asking us to pay attention to its neglect.




















From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!Freenet.carleton.ca!ae446 Sun Aug  1 21:45:19 EDT 1993
Article: 5990 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: alt.activism,misc.rural,misc.legal
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From: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Subject: Migrant Farm Labor Crew Operators Indicted
Message-ID: <CAx2Bq.6Gt@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
Reply-To: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet, Ottawa
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 08:02:13 GMT
Lines: 56
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu alt.activism:43402 misc.rural:5990 misc.legal:48391




Here is a press release from the U.S. National Archives.  

I downloaded the press release from the PR On-Line BBS in Maryland at
410-363-0834. 

 Justice Investigation Results in Grand Jury Indictment of Migrant
Farm Labor Crew Operators
 To: National Desk, Agriculture Writer
 Contact: Julie Anbender of the U.S. Department of Justice,
          202-514-2007

   WASHINGTON, July 28  -- Acting Assistant Attorney 
General for Civil Rights James P. Turner today announced
that a federal grand jury has indicted the operators of an alleged
three-state ring of illegal immigrant farm labor crews on
violations of conspiracy, labor, peonage, and narcotics laws.
   The indictment was returned yesterday against Carrie Mae Bonds,
Willie Bonds Sr. and Willie Bonds Jr. in Raleigh, N.C., following
an 18-month investigation by the Justice Department's Civil
Rights Division, the FBI and the U.S. Department of Labor.
   The Bonds operated labor crews in North Carolina, South
Carolina and Georgia, the indictment said.  The defendants
recruited homeless people from soup kitchens and temporary labor
pools and promised workers high wages, free lodgings, drugs,
alcohol and cigarettes, the indictment said.  The defendants
conspired to keep workers in conditions of peonage, threatening
them with violence and preventing them from leaving until they had
paid off debts for food and housing, the indictment said.
   "The Department of Justice is determined to ensure that farms and
labor operators who use seasonal and migrant workers abide by
federal laws," said Turner. "We want to insure that those trying to
rise out of poverty do not fall into peonage."
   Counts one to three of the indictment charge conspiracy and
substantive violations of 29 U.S.C. 1851, the Migrant and Seasonal
Agricultural Worker Protection Act ("MSPA").  Count four charges
a conspiracy to hold workers in a condition of peonage, in violation
of 18 U.S.C. 371 and 1581.  Count five charges the distribution
of cocaine in violation of 21 U.S.C. 841.
   The indictment also alleges that the Bonds were cited numerous
times by the Department of Labor beginning in 1987 for numerous
safety and other violations of MSPA but nonetheless continued to
operate migrant crews into the 1990s.
   The maximum penalty on each of the MSPA counts is one year
imprisonment, a $100,000 fine or both.  The maximum penalty on the
conspiracy to engage in peonage count is five years imprisonment,
$250,000 fine, or both.  The maximum penalty on the narcotics
distribution count is 40 years imprisonment, $250,000 fine, or
both.

 -30-

-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada  ae446@freenet.carleton.ca


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!butch!LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM!J103680 Sun Aug  1 21:45:32 EDT 1993
Article: 5984 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Sustainable land use
Message-ID: <93209.63285.J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
Sender: news@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:34:45 PDT
Lines: 49

Does anyone know of research comparing the producing capacity
per acre of organic crop output to the capacity using current
crop farming methods in America?  The answer to this question
has relevance not only to the quality of the rural environment
but also to the quality of future American life.

My folks live in farming country in the Midwest and I've noticed
a few things:

1. earthworms no longer live in most farm fields
2. more organic material is removed from fields than returned
3. much of soil in farm fields is acquiring more of a claylike
   texture
4. wind erosion from fall plowing is extensive
5. fish have disappeared from most streams and ditches due to
   chemical runoff from fields
6. summers in the Midwest seem to be growing more humid
7. very little animal or insect life remains in crop field soil
8. more rural acreage is being paved each year
9. rabbits and gamebirds have experienced greatly reduced
   population densities in wooded areas

I feel that if we feed the soil, that it will feed us in harmony.
I feel our government is subsidizing the exportation of our soil's
producing capacity to the Soviets each fall at the expense of our
children and grandchildren.
I feel the only sane policy for sustainable land use is to shift
into the producing capacity that the land itself can provide using
modern equipment but with organic methods.
I feel that our current major weather abberations are due to the
earth asking us to pay attention to its neglect.




















From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!steele!ohsu.edu!lawder Sun Aug  1 21:46:15 EDT 1993
Article: 5999 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural,bionet.agroforestry
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From: lawder@ohsu.edu
Subject: Re: Hazelnut Farm - Am I nuts?
Message-ID: <lawder.344@ohsu.edu>
Sender: news@ohsu.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: 137.53.51.31
Organization: Oregon Health Sciences University
References: <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov> <CAw6HE.32@sugar.NeoSoft.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:28:45 GMT
Lines: 21
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:5999 bionet.agroforestry:301

In article <CAw6HE.32@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird) writes:

>Does anyone in the USA say "filbert"?

>I don't know anything about hazelnut processing in
>this country.  Please do report back on it as you
>learn more; I but it's an interesting fraternity.
>-- 
I live in the heart of Oregon's FILBERT orchard area and Diamond has a 
processing plant on 99E in Hubbard, OR (address might be Aurora, OR).

In the 5 years I've been here, there have been significant increases in the 
number of orchards planted and producing.  Why, there's a 50-acre orchard 
right across the street from my house.

Recommend local OR Ag offices as good potential source of information on 
this subject.

Kath
lawder@ohsu.edu
Portland, OR


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Article: 6008 of misc.rural
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From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Re: Hazelnut Farm - Am I nuts?
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 14:32:45 GMT
Message-ID: <CAzF2o.HM1@sugar.NeoSoft.COM>
References: <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov> <CAw6HE.32@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> <lawder.344@ohsu.edu>
Lines: 42
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:6008 bionet.agroforestry:302

In article <lawder.344@ohsu.edu> lawder@ohsu.edu writes:
			.
			.
			.
>I live in the heart of Oregon's FILBERT orchard area and Diamond has a 
>processing plant on 99E in Hubbard, OR (address might be Aurora, OR).
>
>In the 5 years I've been here, there have been significant increases in the 
>number of orchards planted and producing.  Why, there's a 50-acre orchard 
>right across the street from my house.
>
>Recommend local OR Ag offices as good potential source of information on 
>this subject.
			.
			.
			.
If there's an FAQ for misc.rural, this should
be in it:  USA residents, talk to your country
agricultural extension agent.  They have the
information, and they're good about helping.

The originator of this thread asked about
diseases.  I've forgotten from where he was
asking.  Hazelnuts have been tried in the
eastern US, where the climate ought to be
acceptable (I've put in a few, myself--I
moved away from there, though, and have lost
track of how they're doing), but a "blight"
has constrained commerical plantings.  I
never have learned the biology of the blight.
Also, the catkins of hazelnuts are suscept-
ible to frosts.  They don't have to be late,
apparently; if there are warm days early, the
pollinating organs start to grow, then frigid
nights can wipe 'em out.  The tree doesn't
particularly mind, but it destroys a year's
nuts.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!meaddata!christ Sun Aug  1 21:48:47 EDT 1993
Article: 6009 of misc.rural
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From: christ@meaddata.com (Chris Tilton)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: natural farming
Date: 30 Jul 1993 16:32:02 GMT
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Lines: 40
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <23bie2$s56@meaddata.meaddata.com>
References: <1993Jul26.220550.15072@microsoft.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hundred.meaddata.com

In article <1993Jul26.220550.15072@microsoft.com>, keithji@microsoft.com (Keith Jin) writes:
|> I read about natural farming from Masanobu Fukuoka's book 
|> "The One-Straw Revolution." Fukuoka is a Japaness farmer.
|> In the book, he talks about his farming pratice with no-tillage, 
|> no cultivation and no chemical fertilizer.  It is a good 
|> book, very inspiring. 
|> 
|> Do anyone know if there is any natural farming practice here in
|> America? 
|> 
|> I live in the Seattle area (west coast) and thinking about buying 
|> some land to try out natural farming. But it seems good agricuture
|> land is always expensive. I don't think I need a lot of land. Just 
|> a few acres are probably enough. I am mainly looking for sufficient 
|> water supply and good soil drainage. Are there places in other areas 
|> that land is still afordable and good for growing food? 
|> 
Rodale Press has several books and a magazine (the Organic Farming?).
We tried this on a small plot of land on our farm.  It is difficult to
keep up with the weeds etc.  Before plunging into this, I would visit
some organic farms in your area and see the amount of work needed.  It
is possible to be successful.  You will have to find markets (organic
food stores, restaraunts, etc.) for your products before growing them.
It may be wise to rent a few acres from someone and experiment before
going into this full time.  We tried in the mid 80's on two acres and
finally gave up.  Sometimes the ground would be too wet for several
weeks and the weeds would get out of hand before cultivating it.  We
found some stores to buy our product at a premium.  But when we
calculated our time on the two acres (hand weeding, hand harvesting,
etc.), we weren't making that much an hour.  Good luck.

-- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
J. Chris Tilton         "Pay no attention to the man
Mead Data Central       behind the curtain."
(Home of Lexis/Nexis)
profs: jct3
christ@meaddata.com     the wizard, The Wizard of OZ
ext. 6042  
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!menudo.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!f_griffith Tue Aug  3 23:21:54 EDT 1993
Article: 6044 of misc.rural
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From: f_griffith@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: 2nd newsletter available
Message-ID: <1993Aug3.204047.6134@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>
Date: 3 Aug 93 20:40:47 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University
Lines: 41




  The second preliminary issue of the "Coping with Turbulent Times" 
  newsletter has been published.  For a free copy, send a long, 
  stamped addressed envelope to: Coping with Turbulent Times c/o III, 
  Box 4630 SFA Sta., Nacogdoches TX  75962.  Or send your U.S. mail 
  address to me (INTERNET: F_GRIFFITH@ccsvax.sfasu.edu) and I'll 
  have a copy sent to you.  Please say where you saw this notice.
  Permission granted to repost thru 8/31/93.
  
     The "Coping with Turbulent Times" theme, as may be evident 
  from the title, is that the times we live in bring many problems 
  and that there are lots of things we can do to be better prepared 
  to meet them.  Here's a summary  of the content:
                                          
     Our Turbulent Times.  This section covers the problems that   
  make our times turbulent.  It includes essays on some of the 
  problems and current bits of information.        
                                          
     Economic Outlook.  Including: Brief discussion of how the  
  economy looks currently, write-ups on how to judge or analyze the 
  economy.    
            
     Thinking about the Times.  Ideas on clear thinking, world-
  views, media bias, scenarios, etc.             
                                          
     Finances.  Discussions of analyzing your financial position, 
  improving your position, possibly some ideas on investing.         
  
     Physical Preparation.  Suggestions for what is needed in the      
  way of skills, physical fitness, diet, health, food etc. storage, 
  water, utilities, gardening, etc. to be prepared for the times.                     
                                             
     Working with Others.  Topics such as family relationships,       
  co-ops, neighborhood groups, political activism, etc.                      
                                             
     Resources.  Reviews and sources of books, magazines, newslet-
ters, etc. (possibly sources of goods too).                    




From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!calamity!mwd Tue Aug  3 23:23:10 EDT 1993
Article: 6027 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: alt.co-ops,misc.rural,sci.energy
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From: mwd@cray.com (Mark Dalton)
Subject: Self-sufficient, retreat area
Message-ID: <1993Aug2.003125.10229@walter.cray.com>
Followup-To: mwd@cray.com
Originator: mwd@calamity
Lines: 66
Nntp-Posting-Host: calamity.cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 2 Aug 93 00:31:25 CDT
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu alt.co-ops:736 misc.rural:6027 sci.energy:15349

	I have been thinking about building a retreat center, that
would be free to the public.  And would only allow so many people at
a time.  (Perhaps many will think this is crazy).

	This is a very BREIF description.

	The idea:
There are 5-10 designs I have in mind for a entirely self=sufficient
center, with preferably 80+ acres.  The design is dependent on the
area of location (designs for regions: dessert, mountains, forest,
plains, (rivers and/or lakes or without).

	1. Purpose - A place for people to freely retreat to, in order
	   to escape the fast pace life of the city.  A place to remember
	   or find what is important to you in life.  A place to be
	   a part of community, without requiring that you 'buy in" to
	   their philosophies/ideals.  A place to grow and learn from
	   individuals that seek to find a similar place.
	   There are some places, but they charge large fees and push
	   their philosophies.
	   - There would probably be some discussions on various topics
	   on request.  But overall it would just be casual conversations.
	2. Energy efficient.  Built in the Earth, conforming
	   to the surrounding environment.  Natural lighting as much as
	   possible.
	3. Food would be grown on the land or underground (already designed
	   with a few questions).  The people that were there would spend
	   sometime working on the land, working with each other.  This
	   would be a learning exercise as much as a planting/harvesting.
	   I was thinking a max. of 4 hours/day per person.
	4. Self-sufficient energy: 1. Solar, 2. wind, 3. geo-thermal
	   (depending on the location and time of year).

The main questions are:
	1. What would it take to build an underground green house?
	   (quite extensive, about the size of a football field with
	    water: pond, streams, etc. - structure is the problem the
	    water I can take care of).
	   - I would prefer some skylight 'type' lighting.
	2. What would it cost to setup fiber optic lighting?
	   (especially for the underground gardens).
	3. Where would I be allowed to build the place independently
           (not all of the union labor, etc.).  I have seen quite a bit
           of construction done by "professionals" and I had to redo some
	   or just did it myself for my own projects.
		I would run this by a architect for final revisions, 
		assure safety and to meet regulations.
	  -I know how to do (at least basically):
		most electrical (I rewired and overseas hospital
		assembled their X-ray machine), laid block, brick, coral,
		etc., welding, plumbing, carpentry, land scaping, agriculture,
		have a good common sense of design and structural integrity,
		also I am artistic, especially in construction.
	 
The biggest shortfall for me is the initial startup/building costs and time.

I welcome sincere comments and suggestions.

Thanks!

Mark
-- 
Mark Dalton
Cray Research, Inc.
Eagan, MN 55121
Internet: mwd@cray.com


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!butch!LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM!J103680 Tue Aug  3 23:25:00 EDT 1993
Article: 5984 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Sustainable land use
Message-ID: <93209.63285.J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
Sender: news@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 17:34:45 PDT
Lines: 49

Does anyone know of research comparing the producing capacity
per acre of organic crop output to the capacity using current
crop farming methods in America?  The answer to this question
has relevance not only to the quality of the rural environment
but also to the quality of future American life.

My folks live in farming country in the Midwest and I've noticed
a few things:

1. earthworms no longer live in most farm fields
2. more organic material is removed from fields than returned
3. much of soil in farm fields is acquiring more of a claylike
   texture
4. wind erosion from fall plowing is extensive
5. fish have disappeared from most streams and ditches due to
   chemical runoff from fields
6. summers in the Midwest seem to be growing more humid
7. very little animal or insect life remains in crop field soil
8. more rural acreage is being paved each year
9. rabbits and gamebirds have experienced greatly reduced
   population densities in wooded areas

I feel that if we feed the soil, that it will feed us in harmony.
I feel our government is subsidizing the exportation of our soil's
producing capacity to the Soviets each fall at the expense of our
children and grandchildren.
I feel the only sane policy for sustainable land use is to shift
into the producing capacity that the land itself can provide using
modern equipment but with organic methods.
I feel that our current major weather abberations are due to the
earth asking us to pay attention to its neglect.




















From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!microsoft!wingnut!keithji Tue Aug  3 23:25:23 EDT 1993
Article: 6034 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: keithji@microsoft.com (Keith Jin)
Subject: Re: Sustainable land use
Message-ID: <1993Aug02.203844.28208@microsoft.com>
Date: 02 Aug 93 20:38:44 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
References: <93209.63285.J103680@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> 
Distribution: usa
Lines: 28

In his book "The One Straw Revolution", Fukuoka did compare 
his result, yield/acre with the yield of chemical farming. 
His yield is not lower than that of the chemical farming. But
the soil in his field is not depleted but improved every year.
This book was published, I think, twenty years ago. I heard it
was not in print. You might be able to find in a library. 

I feel that what has been done to the land can not be looked 
seperatedly from the man's metality toward the earth and nature. 
If you simply compare the way the land is used and the way our
body is treated, you will see there is not much difference. It
is the same metality: our body and our land is our utility; they
belong to us and we can do whatever to them for our benifit. 

Without changing this metality, I feel little can be changed. 
Man's intellegance is limited. We can not forsee the full 
consequence of our technologies and our inventions. If we only 
think the benifit of men (whether it is for this generation or 
the next), the actions we think are good now may be proven 
to be not that good in thirty years. 

What we should follow is the guidence of our heart. Out heart
knows when our mind is confused. It knows the earth is our
mother. It knows our body is our temple. When the heart is 
fully wakened and alive and when the mind and the heart are in 
a balance, the harmony between nature and men can be achieved. 

Keith


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!uunet!ftpbox!mothost!white!rtsg.mot.com!blazer9!sticha Thu Aug  5 22:37:20 EDT 1993
Article: 5979 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Subject: Re: Earthships & Rammed Earth
Message-ID: <1993Jul27.221927.9801@rtsg.mot.com>
Sender: news@rtsg.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: blazer9
Reply-To: sticha@blazer9.Berkeley.EDU (David A. Sticha)
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
References:  <1993Jul24.202604.8696@cnsvax.uwec.edu> <1993Jul26.145217.259@nntp.nta.no>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:19:27 GMT
Lines: 12

>I'd like to find out about more details about rammed earth building.  Any
>pointers or information anyone?

Countryside and Small Stock Journal magazine published by jd Belanger had an
article last year or year before on rammed earth construction. In follow up mail
several issues later was a source for a rammed earth brick making machine. The
jist was that the soil must be as free of organic material as possible (just
the opposite of what most people want for gardening) and with a very small clay
content (holds too much water). Sorry but I don't have the address handy. If
interested, just email me.
Dave
sticha@rtsg.mot.com


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!gr.cs.utah.edu!ndmead Mon Aug  9 23:52:42 EDT 1993
Article: 6080 of misc.rural
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From: ndmead%gr.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Nathan Mead)
Subject: Re: Hazelnut Farm - Am I nuts?
Date: 6 Aug 93 18:50:38 MDT
Message-ID: <1993Aug6.185039.6631@hellgate.utah.edu>
Organization: University of Utah
References: <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov>
Lines: 51

In article <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov>, ward9@llnl.gov (Rich Ward) writes:
|> I've been looking into acquiring a hazelnut farm.  

< deleted >

|> I would appreciate any pointers from those of you
|> that have experience in this area.  

As I have farmed hazelnuts for the last 20 years I'll toss in my 0.02$ worth. 
A filbert farm is a good hobby but a hard way to make a living.  The trees require a reasonable amount of care year round, from pruning in the winter, suckering, spraying and mowing in the spring and summer to harveting in the 
fall.  With the exception of harvesting and spraying nothing is real time critical and can wait a while if desired.  And farming in the shade is the 
only way to go.

|> Particularly what are the potential
|> pitfalls? Are there any diseases or nematodes that wipe out whole orchards?

Yes.  Eastern filbert blight kills the trees and there is no known cure.  
At my last understanding it was primarly found in southern Washington and 
the tri-counties area around Portland, although infected trees have been 
found in most of the Willamette vally.  It spreads slowly but is very nasty.
To the best of my knowledge none of the commerical varities are resistance although the common polinizer Daviana is one of the most susceptible.

|> Why have hazelnut prices gone from 40+ to 28 cents over the past three
|> years; is this just cyclic farm prices or is there something going on at
|> the nut houses?

There are as many theories about this as there are filbert farmers.  The 
big three are.  

1) Large overseas crops.  The U.S. grows a tiny fraction of all the 
filberts grown in the world.  Turkey is the biggie with around 50%-70% 
of the world production.  They have a good crop the price goes in the 
dumper.  

2)  Increased domestic production.  Despite the loss of many acres of 
orchard around Portland the total producing acerage keeps going up.  
A lot of trees were planted back in the early 80's when prices were 
high and now those trees are reaching full production.  Generally these 
orchards are high density plantings ( 200+ trees/acre ) and have higher 
yeilds than the older orchards.  

3)  The recession.  For years much of the domestic crop was exported, most
to Europe.  With the Europian economy in worse shape than ours they are 
buying fewer of our nuts.

Hope this helps.

Nathan Mead
Center for Engineering Design
University of Utah
  


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!wupost!uunet!osh3!craig Mon Aug  9 23:54:55 EDT 1993
Article: 6081 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: craig@osh3.OSHA.GOV (Craig Nordin)
Subject: Re: Geeze.. socialist farmers...
Organization: U.S. D.O.L - Occupational Safety & Health Admin.
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1993 22:40:16 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Aug06.224016.20735@osh3.OSHA.GOV>
References: <1993Aug1.043633.1@aurora.alaska.edu> <74448406734n9@news.cecer.army.mil> <1993Aug5.131623.18433@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
Lines: 50

In <1993Aug5.131623.18433@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> rankin@midway.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jim Rankin) writes:

[.... buncha stuff deleted ....]
>me I hate everyone.... Can we please keep socialism out of this group ????
>Let's see it worked in Russia, China, Cuba, eastern Europe, North Korea,
>Opps, you mean people starve there too, you mean we have more food than
>all of them, and we send some of them our food...  Let's just stick to rural 
>life and leave the socialist dogma in misc.city.life.

My grandfather was a farmer.  He died face down in the garden.
He used the Montgomery Ward catalogue to order from and used
the Sears catalogue (nailed-up in the outhouse) as toilet paper.
He called Sears "a damned Replican" company and he would only
use it to wipe.

Visiting last year, I found out that he, and his fellow
parishoners at Spring Lake Lutheran Church, had a *very* 
socialist/democratic dream of cooperative and self-sustaining
community.  He, and fellows, thought that everyone should 
grow a little of everything.  It was their view of a little
heaven.  They thought that sharing within the local community
made very good sense.  It was cultural LAW to them.  Minnesota 
has had a long history of leaning towards socialism.  Even
in the "boonies".

I don't like the ranting any better than anyone else.  I 
skip past flames as soon as I find them.  Preaching messages
bore me to sleep.  But you can't take the socialism out of
the country.  Why even try....

I'm a libertarian myself, probably closer in viewpoint to
the original poster of this thread.  But I'd say to attack
the ranting and preaching and not argue with those who do 
about their favorite politics.  Learn to live with everyone.....
While rural life provides "dominion", to a point, you still
can't expect to be God and keep the whole of nature for
your own party.

But, I think I agree in spirit with the original poster.

blah blah blah blah....

[ Note my hurried and non-deliberate writing -- you can see
  that I have yet to make it out to rural life! :) ]

 -
 US Department of Labor      Craig Nordin          craig@osh3.osha.gov
 OSHA OMDS FSDB #N3661                  uunet!osh1.osha.gov!osh3!craig 
 200 Constitution Ave. NW Phone (FTS/202) v:219-7788 x57  fax:219-5830
 Washington D.C. 20210    Standard, Complete, and Constant Disclaimers


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!max.cecer.army.mil!usenet Mon Aug  9 23:56:44 EDT 1993
Article: 6087 of misc.rural
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From: Tom=Durbin%FEP%USACERL@leo.cecer.army.mil
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Socialist...?
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 93 08:31:32
Organization: USACERL
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <74489949234n9@news.cecer.army.mil>
NNTP-Posting-Host: leo.cecer.army.mil


In response to the many who have mis-interpreted my original comments, I
feel compelled to set things straight.  I had to re-read my original comments,
and don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that I would support
socialists.  A few people, however, were able to get something good from
my comments.  My thanks for their support.

	In no way, shape, or form, could I ever support socialism.  As someone
else pointed out on the net, you missed the point.  He correctly interpretted my
comments to mean that too many people could only be successfully handled in
a certain way.  Otherwise, there would be utter chaos in the streets.  I hope to
live a simple lifestyle, making my contribution in a capitalist society, reaping
only the fruits of my labor.  I believe the human population of the world is too 
large and the problem will only get worse.  Programs like those being pushed
by the Slick Billary White House will lead us to a terrible socialist existence.
We can see now that there are good jobs for a portion of the population.  The
rest of the population must exist on minimum wage or handouts the socialist
government programs force me to give them (i.e.:  tax me and give them
welfare, food stamps, etc.).  I don't think I owe those people anything, and 
I'm tired of "footing the bill" for "dead" weight and their offspring.  I
just want to live a rural, traditional life, without being bothered.  For this to
happen, though, I have to find a place that is not being encroached upon by
the ever-increasing population.  My projections tell me that I may be able
to find a good place, but that my grand-children may never have the chance.
I fight for them.

As I've said before, I was just born a few hundred years too late :> .

Tom Durbin


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!mercury.hsi.com!mlfarm!auda!ron Thu Aug 19 06:45:42 EDT 1993
Article: 6182 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,misc.rural
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From: ron@mlfarm.com (Ronald Florence)
Subject: Re: Fertilizer FAQ
In-Reply-To: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu's message of 16 Aug 93 15:35:39 -0500
Message-ID: <CBwp5J.14E@mlfarm.com>
Lines: 42
Nntp-Posting-Host: auda.mlfarm.com
Organization: Maple Lawn Farm, Stonington, CT
References: <1993Aug16.153540.15669@iscsvax.uni.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1993 13:51:14 GMT
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:21370 misc.rural:6182

klier@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:

   Besides carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, the essential minerals for
   most plants are:
			  Chemical
	   Element        Symbol     Available form:
   MACRO  Nitrogen        N          NH4+, NO3-
	  Phosphorus      P          HPO4-, H2PO4-
	  Potassium       K          K+

   SECONDARY
	  Sulfur          S          SO4--
	  Calcium         Ca         Ca++
	  Magnesium       Mg         Mg++

   MICRONUTRIENTS
	  Iron            Fe         Fe++, Fe+++
	  Manganese       Mn         Mn++
	  Boron           B          H2BO3
	  Copper          Cu         Cu++
	  Zinc            Zn         Zn++
	  Molybdenum      Mo         MoO4--
	  Chlorine        Cl         Cl-

The FAQ was clearly intended for rec.gardens, and not for misc.rural,
but it might be useful to add that boron is an important element in
assuring growth of forage legumes like alfalfa and ladino clover.

One other mineral which can be important to the health of animals fed
on forage is selenium.  The soils in many areas of the United States
are low in selenium; animals raised on hay or pasture from these soils
can suffer from selenium/vitamin-E defficiency (White Muscle Disease),
a chronic muscular dystrophy that ultimately affects the heart
muscles.  The condition can be relieved by injections of vitamin-E and
selenium, or by diet supplements.  I don't know whether selenium can
be added to deficient soils.

These comments are only a shepherd's nit-picks to a very useful FAQ.
--

				Ronald Florence
				ron@mlfarm.com


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!butch!rapnet!news Thu Aug 19 06:49:29 EDT 1993
Article: 6143 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: ln21531@sander.lockheed.com (Jan Marshall)
Subject: Local produce
Message-ID: <ln21531.146@sander.lockheed.com>
Sender: news@Rapnet.Sanders.Lockheed.Com (USENET News System)
Organization: Lockheed Sanders, Inc.
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 93 10:34:34 GMT
Lines: 22

Fortunately, where I live (Southern New Hampshire), the big food chains like 
Market Basket and Alexanders' Shop & Save can't wait to flood their produce 
sections with local vegetables and fruits.  

Yes, we have to buy "gigantic pale tomatoes" and other washed out, tasteless 
stuff during the non-growing seasons, but we all know that as soon as things 
come into season, the stores will give us the best of the regions.

I find myself embarrased to say that I do buy in the big stores rather than 
go to all the farmstands, but I know that the farmstands have already sold 
bigtime to the big stores and are not losing money over my laziness.

I am pleased that the time honored farms in the area have stayed in booming 
business for so long and if it came down to needing one-on-one support, I 
would absolutely make the effort to go out of my way to give them my 
business.

It IS the farmers though, that have kept the farms going for so long.  The 
families that started them 100-200 years ago are still the ones that own 
them.

Jan


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rpi!batcomputer!news.graphics.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!jch Thu Aug 19 06:50:01 EDT 1993
Article: 6150 of misc.rural
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From: jch@nr-tech.cit.cornell.edu (Jeffrey C Honig)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Offical Guide - Tractors and Farm Equipment
Date: 13 Aug 93 13:38:10
Organization: Information Technologies/Network Resources; Cornell University;
	Ithaca, NY USA
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <JCH.93Aug13133810@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mitchell.cit.cornell.edu

A couple of people have asked me about the "Official Guide" I
mentioned in an earlier note.  It is published by NAEDA (North
American Equipment Dealers Association) twice a year (Spring and
Fall).  It has specs, serial numbers, serial number locations,
Nebraska tractor test summaries and average prices on just about all
tractors from the 8N to the present.  It also has alot of information
about other Farm equipment.

The cost is $49 each, or $80.90 annually, plush shipping and taxes.  I
got my copy from the Ag library here at Cornell.

I won't list the 20 or so state and regional associations listed to
obtain it from, just the national one.  I'm sure they can refer you:

	NAEDA
	10877 Watson Road
	St Louis, MO  63127-1081
	314/821-7220

Jeff


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!network.ucsd.edu!news.cerf.net!pagesat!netsys!jackp Thu Aug 19 06:50:15 EDT 1993
Article: 6154 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: jackp@NETSYS.COM (Jack Powers)
Subject: Book: :"Finding Your Place In The Country"
Message-ID: <jackp.745472194@netsys.com>
Summary: Looking for this book
Keywords: book country home dwelling
Sender: news@netsys.com
Organization: Netsys Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1993 03:36:34 GMT
Lines: 7

A couple of years ago I remember hearing of a book with a
title like "Finding & Living In Your Home In The Country"
or something close to that- can anyone help me find it?

Jack Powers
Phone/fax 408/779-7472



From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ida.org!rlw Thu Aug 19 06:51:22 EDT 1993
Article: 6177 of misc.rural
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From: rlw@ida.org (Richard Wexelblat)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Boric Acid for insects
Date: 17 Aug 1993 12:36:53 GMT
Organization: IDA, Alexandria, Virginia
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <24qjd5INNctm@dmsoproto.ida.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fafner.ida.org
Summary: Kill
Keywords: Six legged small walking animals
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Mail indicates that the "Boric Acid Trick" is not as well known as I
thought.  In general it works for ants, roaches, earwigs, (less for)
centipedes, perhaps for all creepy crawlies, who knows?

You need to get boric acid powder where they run.  This means either
careful study to focus on specific domicile or entry points or a lot of
powder to broadcast.  The action is mechanical:  the powder adheres to
the waxy coating on their exoskeletons and as they groom it off, it
scratches through the coating, compromising it.  Then they die of
dehydration.

My wife got an "insufflator" at a large pharmacy.  It's like a 2" long
turkey baster.  Using this she puffs boric acid powder under kitchen
cabinets, around drain pipes, etc.  It seems to do the trick in only 1
or 2 applications.  My guess is about an ounce or so per time per
kitchen, but I'm not an expert.

I'm told this is an entirely safe process as it won't harm the
environment.  I'm also told that a bit on you or even in your food
won't hurt -- but I'm not an expert in this domain.


--
--Dick Wexelblat  (rwexelblat@acm.org)
  Soon to be elsewhere -- stay tuned for new address.


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!gr.cs.utah.edu!ndmead Thu Aug 19 06:52:05 EDT 1993
Article: 6080 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: ndmead%gr.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Nathan Mead)
Subject: Re: Hazelnut Farm - Am I nuts?
Date: 6 Aug 93 18:50:38 MDT
Message-ID: <1993Aug6.185039.6631@hellgate.utah.edu>
Organization: University of Utah
References: <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov>
Lines: 51

In article <ward9-270793072040@macward.s1.gov>, ward9@llnl.gov (Rich Ward) writes:
|> I've been looking into acquiring a hazelnut farm.  

< deleted >

|> I would appreciate any pointers from those of you
|> that have experience in this area.  

As I have farmed hazelnuts for the last 20 years I'll toss in my 0.02$ worth. 
A filbert farm is a good hobby but a hard way to make a living.  The trees require a reasonable amount of care year round, from pruning in the winter, suckering, spraying and mowing in the spring and summer to harveting in the 
fall.  With the exception of harvesting and spraying nothing is real time critical and can wait a while if desired.  And farming in the shade is the 
only way to go.

|> Particularly what are the potential
|> pitfalls? Are there any diseases or nematodes that wipe out whole orchards?

Yes.  Eastern filbert blight kills the trees and there is no known cure.  
At my last understanding it was primarly found in southern Washington and 
the tri-counties area around Portland, although infected trees have been 
found in most of the Willamette vally.  It spreads slowly but is very nasty.
To the best of my knowledge none of the commerical varities are resistance although the common polinizer Daviana is one of the most susceptible.

|> Why have hazelnut prices gone from 40+ to 28 cents over the past three
|> years; is this just cyclic farm prices or is there something going on at
|> the nut houses?

There are as many theories about this as there are filbert farmers.  The 
big three are.  

1) Large overseas crops.  The U.S. grows a tiny fraction of all the 
filberts grown in the world.  Turkey is the biggie with around 50%-70% 
of the world production.  They have a good crop the price goes in the 
dumper.  

2)  Increased domestic production.  Despite the loss of many acres of 
orchard around Portland the total producing acerage keeps going up.  
A lot of trees were planted back in the early 80's when prices were 
high and now those trees are reaching full production.  Generally these 
orchards are high density plantings ( 200+ trees/acre ) and have higher 
yeilds than the older orchards.  

3)  The recession.  For years much of the domestic crop was exported, most
to Europe.  With the Europian economy in worse shape than ours they are 
buying fewer of our nuts.

Hope this helps.

Nathan Mead
Center for Engineering Design
University of Utah
  


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!rochester!cornell!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!jch Thu Aug 19 06:54:00 EDT 1993
Article: 6123 of misc.rural
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From: jch@nr-tech.cit.cornell.edu (Jeffrey C Honig)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.consumers.house
Subject: Underground water pipe and electrical
Message-ID: <JCH.93Aug11230311@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu>
Date: 12 Aug 93 03:03:11 GMT
Organization: Information Technologies/Network Resources; Cornell University;
	Ithaca, NY USA
Lines: 26
NNTP-Posting-Host: mitchell.cit.cornell.edu
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:6123 misc.consumers.house:37772

I'm getting ready to run two underground water pipes.  One is going to
be 42-48" deep to supply water to freeze proof yard hydrants near our
kennels and barn.  The bottom of this ditch will be covered with sand.
The other is to supply water hookups in our pasture for our sheep and
will be about 6" deep with connection points every 100'.

I've pretty much been informed that I want to use 1" calron black
pressure pipe.  There are two flavors of this, 100 PSI and 160 PSI.
Neither of these will see more than about 40 PSI (at our pressure
tank, before the water treatment equipment).  I've looked at both
flavors and there does not seem to be much difference in wall
thickness.  Is there any reason to go with the 160 PSI pipe for added
protection against breakage due to rocks?  It costs about 50% more,
which I don't mind spending if it will gain me something.


Also, while I am running a water line out to the barn, I'm considering
burying an 50A 220v electrical line instead of replacing the overhead,
something line 6-3 URD.  Can this be put in the same ditch?  Does this
need to be run in conduit in the house on it's way to the electical
panel?  Is the conduit used for burying easy to work with?


Thanks.

Jeff


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!uwovax.uwo.ca!35002_4336 Thu Aug 19 06:56:44 EDT 1993
Article: 6203 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: 35002_4336@uwovax.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Bats!
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1993 07:59:29 GMT
Message-ID: <1993Aug19.035929.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>
References: <CBzFEn.7JC@iupui.edu>
Sender: news@julian.uwo.ca (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: hydra.uwo.ca
Lines: 40

In article <CBzFEn.7JC@iupui.edu>, jon@sparcplug.iupui.edu (Jon Burgoyne) writes:
> I've been living with bats in my attic for 4 years now and not had any problems
> except for this little tick that my particular bats carry.  When I say living
> with bats, I'm living with approx. 1000 little browns.  I have a researcher
> from Indiana State that comes to my house about twice a year to check on their
> progress and tag a few now and again.  He claims that they use my attic as a
> nursery colony, coming there in the spring to have their young and flying,
> wherever it is that they go in the fall.  From the MOUNDS of guano in the attic
> he says they have been doing this for 30-35 years (house is circa 1860).
> 
> I've never tried to eliminate them because they don't cause me any trouble but
> I have known them to get stuck in fly paper and mouse traps, I even had one
> drown in  a drip pan I had in the attic.
> 
> I guess my point is that living with bats really doesn't have that many
> disadvantages as long as you are willing to give up the space that they want.
> 
> Jon Burgoyne
> Purdue University - Indianapolis
> jon@cnc.iupui.edu
>
True. They don't eat wood, they don't chew on electrical wires, they don't
stink (certainly no more than what you'd expect to find in a typically musty
attic), and they won't raid your pantry and break into your cereal boxes!
At my parents house, we have several small colonies (at least 3). At night in
the backyard I have no trouble spotting them swopping overhead ridding the
neighbourhood of bugs. The only times my parents ever take notice of the fact
that they have bats are a) when one escapes into the house, b) the cat stares
intently at a wall or ceiling, or c) they hear squeaking noises. We think they
are cool, and would never dream of evicting them. 8^)

Rob Coutant
P.S. If you ever find yourself in a situation where a bat is loose in your
house there is a way to get him out without killing or maiming him. Just open
your windows and extend a sheet to form a wall to direct him outside. If this
doesn't really apply in your situation, you can use the sheet like a net and
toss it over the bat -- just take care that the fabric is a light weave so that
it doesn't hurt the bat. I've caught and released several bats using this
technique.
 


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!wupost!waikato!comp.vuw.ac.nz!cc-server4.massey.ac.nz!AChamove Wed Aug 25 21:58:56 EDT 1993
Article: 6280 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: AChamove@massey.ac.nz (A.S. Chamove)
Subject: Re: Poison Ivy Control
Message-ID: <CCC8DG.J8B@massey.ac.nz>
Summary: ]
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
References: <9308251927.AA10366@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu>
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2f
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 23:10:24 GMT
Lines: 15

Here people have found to kill gorse they mix the following:

Roundup 170gm/100ml of water
Metsulfuron  3 gm  (this is the bit that gives the kick)
Surfactant 100ml  (this is just a soap)

Try it and let us know.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold Chamove,				E-mail: AChamove@Massey.ac.NZ
Massey University Psychology Dept.	FAX:    (+64) 6350-5673
Palmerston North, New Zealand		Phone:  (+64) 6350-4124
   					Time Zone:  GMT + 12.00



From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!quack!pharvey Wed Aug 25 22:00:31 EDT 1993
Article: 6240 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!quack!pharvey
From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Fertilizer FAQ
Message-ID: <f7AZ6nX@quack.kfu.com>
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
References: <1993Aug16.153540.15669@iscsvax.uni.edu> <CBwp5J.14E@mlfarm.com>
	<1993Aug18.013448.783@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> 
	<1993Aug18.143757.3612@ncar.ucar.edu>
Date: 21 Aug 1993 21:19:17 UTC
Lines: 84
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:21529 misc.rural:6240

In article <1993Aug18.143757.3612@ncar.ucar.edu> 
ren@rap.ucar.edu (Ren Tescher) writes:
>In article <1993Aug18.013448.783@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> 
kaufman@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Marc T. Kaufman) writes:
>>On the other hand, large amounts of California wetlands are considered
>>toxic sites because of the Selenium concentrated by field drains over the
>>years.  Too much selenium causes deformities in birds.
>As I recall the land surrounding these 'wetlands' was originally arid.
>and naturally high in selenium.

It was originally a large lake, the Tulare Lake, just west of
Visalia. The Kings, Kaweah, Tule and Kern rivers flowed into it instead
of into the San Joaquin valley and out to the San Francisco Bay. The
Tulare Lake basin is arid with under 10 inches of rain per year, hence
like most deserts, the soil has accumulated salts, one of them being
selenium.

>Irragation of these lands for farming
>washed the selenium out of the soil and into the drainage system (wetlands).

The rivers were diverted and the basin converted to premium farmland.
However, like many desert regions, drainage is a problem. Water does not
readily percolate into the subsoil and instead irrigation produces an
elevated water table which must be drained. In addition, salts such as
selenium, which rise to the surface because of irrigation of the desert,
must be regularly leached with water in order to continue cultivation.
Thus, in typical desert irrigation cultivation, one has fresh water
coming in and drain or salty water going out - which is the problem. In
the Colorado valley, the drain water is typically dumped back into the
river on the assumption that Mexico can deal with the salts - in fact as
part of a treaty arrangement, the US helps a little by running a
desalination plant at the border. [As a side note, at one time the
Colorado drained into the Imperial valley which produced the Salton Sea
of southern California.] Anyway, back to the Tulare Lake Basin. The
obvious place to dump drain water is the ocean since that's were we dump
everthing else anyway plus for the most part salt isn't a problem for
the ocean. And so a big drain project was begun, the idea being to dump
the drain water into the SF bay where it would flow out to sea. But, the
SF bay is not the ocean and the drain water would have been a severe
contaminate. So, the drain was halted at Lake Kesterson which was a man
made wetland - just one problem - the selenium which was killing
waterfowl for whom the wetland was made as a substitute for all the
drained wetlands of the San Joaquin Valley and Tulare Lake Basin. The
drain was stopped and Kesterson sits today as a selenium polluted lake
from which birds must be continuously chased away. In the meanwhile,
farming in the Tulare basin continues with more conservation of input
water to minimize drain water and the drain water being evaporated in
large evaporation ponds which destroys the land underneath with selenium
and other salts. Bottom line: we can make the desert bloom, but for how
long and at what cost? The classic reference on this subject is Cadillac
Desert by Mark Reisner.

>The area I refer to is near Silicon Valley.

Nope, different story. The problem in the Santa Clara Valley is
industrial, (primarily TCE/TCA), contamination and the threat of
leaching into the underground aquifer which is the primary source of
drinking water in the SCV aka Silicon Valley. The SCV is unique in that
a land owner doesn't own the water under one's land, it is a valley
resource. The SCV is on the forefront of ground water control. In the
Western US, water is the key element. Where you see a large development,
whether rural or urban, there is a large source of water somewhere that
is fueling it. In the SCV, that large source of water is the underground
aquifer which is largely replenished by rivers which flow into the
valley. Pollution of that aquifer would be the end of SCV "civilization."

>IBM was 'blamed' for dumping
>the selenium and 'volunteered' to help clean up (denying any responsibility)
>before the real cause of the high selenium levels was found.

No, IBM has ground water pollution problems in its south SJ disk
manufacturing plant which they are working on cleaning up. The other
major SCV pollution site is a huge plume from Moffet Field/Fairchild/AMD
and others in Sunnyvale. The SCV has the largest concentration of EPA
Superfund sites in the US, but probably because the issue is so urgent
and much effort has been expended in finding the sources.

>	So my question is, did these 'wetlands' exist before irragation?

Hopefully answered. Prior to European colonization, the SCV, Sacramento,
San Joaquin and Tulare Lake Basin had extensive wetlands because of a
high water table from runoff from the nearby mountains. There is a lot
of water in California, it's just not naturally where the people live
and it's not always there from year to year due to frequent drought.


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!uchinews!raistlin!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!cherry!mlo Mon Aug 30 22:52:40 EDT 1993
Article: 6335 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: mlo@cray.com (Mick Oyer)
Subject: Re: Garden Tractor -- Best Size?
Message-ID: <1993Aug30.144655.29499@hemlock.cray.com>
Lines: 47
Nntp-Posting-Host: cherry
Reply-To: mlo@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
References: <1993Aug26.193026.14330@nntp.nta.no>
Date: 30 Aug 93 14:46:55 CDT

In article 14330@nntp.nta.no, BARANSKI@veamf1.nusc.navy.mil (Jim Baranski) writes:
>I've been looking at Heavy Duty Garden Tractors and compact tractors for a
>while.  I've decided that I really want a compact tractor because I want to be
>able to pull logs, and move dirt with it.  I don't want a full size tractor
>because I also want to mow grass with it.
>
>I'm very impressed with the Ingersol (used to be Case) Garden Tractors.  They
>are *totally* hydraulic in that the engine run a hydraulic pump next to it, and
>the pump runs the wheel transmission and all the attachments.  It seems like a
>very good setup.  They also have a lifetime warrenty on many parts of the
>tractor.
>
>The Cub Cadets seem ok, but are not quite as impressive as the Case/Ingersol 
>444.
>
>Jim 

I've had a Toro 20HP HD Garden Tractor for about a year and a half.
Bought it new, with 48" mower deck, rear 42" tiller attachment, and a
front-end loader - it was a last-year model and they wouldn't sell it
without the loader.  I'm very happy with it, although I'd rather it
be a little easier to switch attachments.  I'd take a hard look at how
hard it is to switch.  Of course, you're always wanting to till the
garden when the mower's on and vice versa - make sure you know how the
attachments go on and off and how hard it is to do. Now that I've done
it a number of times, it's not too bad, but at first it was a real
pain to do - especially the tiller.  Another thing to be careful of -
I assumed that, because the tiller goes on the back, and the
mower goes underneath, that you could mow with the tiller hanging off
the back.  Of course, not true, as both implements require the same
mountings - on the Toro they're called 'Attach-o-matics' - somewhat of
a misnomer.

I have a hydrostatic, which is nice - no shifting gears, just push the
lever forward and go - even my 7-year old can drive it (and mow the
grass :) ).

Anyway Toro makes a nice unit - 20HP is the biggest they make and I
wouldn't want to make do with any less power.  With the bucket on,
I've lifted 300 lb. logs, and dug some pretty good sized holes.


---
   | Michael (Mick) Oyer   EMAIL  :  mlo@cherry.cray.com  ||  uunet!cray!mlo   |
   | Sr. Software Analyst  VMAIL  :  work: (612)-683-5855                      |
   | Cray Research, Inc.   USNAIL :  655F Lone Oak Dr., Eagan, MN 55120        |



From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!news.cs.indiana.edu!dee@cs.indiana.edu Mon Aug 30 22:53:23 EDT 1993
Article: 6293 of misc.rural
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From: dee@cs.indiana.edu ( Dee Heifner)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Poison Ivy Control
Message-ID: <1993Aug26.091223.12991@news.cs.indiana.edu>
Date: 26 Aug 93 14:12:17 GMT
References: <9308251927.AA10366@deepthought.cs.utexas.edu>
Organization: Computer Science, Indiana University
Lines: 8

Someone suggested I try spraying bleach on poison ivy.  It works!
I used the old fashioned, generic, undiluted bleach (strong stuff)
which costs much less than Roundup, etc. (less than $1 @ gallon).
If your poison ivy patch has a head start, it may take several
sprayings before the roots get the message and give up.  For best
results I've read its leaves should be sprayed when they are in
that rapid spring growth stage, starting to get large.  I probably
read it in this news group....


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-vcd!mnelson Mon Aug 30 22:54:15 EDT 1993
Article: 6294 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: mnelson@vcd.hp.com (Mike Nelson)
Subject: Re: Poison Ivy Control
Sender: news@vcd.hp.com (News user)
Message-ID: <CCDLwG.A3n@vcd.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1993 17:00:14 GMT
References: <CCACI3.HGx@freenet.carleton.ca>
Nntp-Posting-Host: hpvcpmn.vcd.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard VCD
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.1]
Lines: 53

Just a few remarks about what's been said.  

If you use gasoline you will definitely kill the plant.  The
problem is that it will also sterilize the soil for years.  If
you don't want anything growing there then have a good time.
Gasoline is pretty hard on the environment though.  I've
always preferred a bit of gas and a match myself. :)

I wish I could find some 2,4D.  We used it all the time on my
folks farm and it works great.  It was the only thing that
really worked on morning glory.  I've not seen it for years.
Has anybody actually bought some recently?  I thought it had
been outlawed.  The advantage 2,4D has is that it only works
on broadleaf plants where round up is more for grasses.  
(What's that word for plants with parallel veins?)

Round up's advantage it that it (says it) doesn't have any
soil action.  It must be absorbed through the leaves to work.
Other stuff like tri-ox works through the roots and will also
sterilize the soil.  

We used to burn the ditches to clear the grass.  You could
rent a propane tank and a hose/handle attachment, load it in
the back of a pickup, and have a hayday.  One farmer I worked
for even had a tractor mounted tank with a horizontal boom for
killing potato vines.  It looked a lot like a sprayer and the 
boom had several nozzles that looked like rocket motors.  The
hand jobbies made a significant racket but it wasn't unpleasant.  
the potato one sounded very much like a jet taking off. 

Would this type of plant control be less damaging to the
environment than all the chemicals?  We just moved onto 5
acres and I have several areas I'd like to clear.  I don't
like the prospect of spending megabucks on chemicals or
worrying about the damage to the environment.  What about a 
wand attachment for a standard 20# tank?

For anyone who's not see this done, it's not necessary to burn
the plant to a crisp.  All you need is enough heat to wilt the
leaves and the plant will die in a few days.  There's very
little smoke and propane burns very cleanly. 

A little anecdote.  A lady was burning her ditches a few years
back and was having trouble keeping the wand lit.  She left
the gas (propane) on for a few minutes while she got something
from the pickup.  Came back, struck the match, and launched
herself out of the ditch in a rather large explosion.  She
wasn't seriously injured but had a somewhat shorter hairdo
than before.

Mike Nelson
Hewlett Packard
Vancouver WA


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!koriel!west.West.Sun.COM!cronkite.Central.Sun.COM!sixgun.East.Sun.COM!seven-up.East.Sun.COM!dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM!scout!barrya Mon Aug 30 22:55:14 EDT 1993
Article: 6292 of misc.rural
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From: barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM (Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Really dirty question.
Date: 26 Aug 1993 13:46:35 GMT
Organization: Sun
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <25iers$o6d@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM>
References: <1993Aug25.211135.42616@rchland.ibm.com> <25gs13INNbm2@west.West.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: scout.east.sun.com

/tmp/rrn7229.24577
>
>Most of the time something gets off-loaded from a dump truck, it forms
>a sort of triangle shaped block, something like below:
>
>                       /\
>                      /  \
>                     /    \
>                    /      \
>            -      /\       \
>                  /  \      /  _
>       height    /    \    /  
>                /      \  /   length
>            _  / _______\/   _
>          
>               |<width>|
>
>If we apply the laws of geometry we all ignored in school, the volume of a
				  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>triangle is 1/2 the base times the height.  Therefore, the volume of the pile
>of stuff in you driveway is going to be
>
>                1/2 * width * height * length

A triangle has NO volume, only area.  The volume of a cone however is
	1/3 * height * area of the base
and the base is
	pi * (radius * radius).

So if you assume the radius is equal to the height you get

10 yds = 270 cf = 1/3 * h * 3.1415 * h * h  => 257.831 = h*h*h => h = 6.3647 ft



-- 
                                                       ___
    o       /------------------------------------/    /  / __          
   _-\ _ ~~< barry.andreasen@scout.East.Sun.COM <    /--<  _/ /- /- / /
  (*)<(*)   \------------------------------------\  /___/ (_)/  /  /_/ 
                                                              ______/
***********************************************************************
I said it, perhaps I meant it, but regardless, I speak only for myself!
***********************************************************************


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.uakron.edu!dax.cc.uakron.edu!r3get Mon Aug 30 22:56:21 EDT 1993
Article: 6317 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.uakron.edu!dax.cc.uakron.edu!r3get
From: r3get@dax.cc.uakron.edu (George E Twaddle )
Subject: Stolen '92 Caterpillar 416 series2 Backhoe
Message-ID: <1993Aug28.154550.17842@news.uakron.edu>
Sender: news@news.uakron.edu
Organization: The University of Akron, Akron, Ohio
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1993 15:45:50 GMT
Lines: 13


     On Monday August 23 my father's new 4-wheeldrive cat hoe was stolen
in broad daylight from Springdale, South Carolina.  At approximately
8:00 AM, according to witnesses, a white truck/black bed with a yellow
trailer hauled it away (nearly every contractor in South Carolina has a
truck and trailer like this).  The hoe was a 1992 Caterpillar 416
series2 with 4 wheel drive and two in one bucket, serial # O5PC16342
and ID # 55930.  These numbers are stamped on a plate on the front end
boom.  If anyone out there has any info, please Email me or call me or
my father, it would be greatly appreciated.

        George Twaddle r3get@dax.cc.uakron.edu  (216)-762-5978
        Ellis Twaddle  (803)-356-1027  


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ag301 Mon Aug 30 22:57:40 EDT 1993
Article: 6321 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!ag301
From: ag301@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tricia Schmidt)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Stolen '92 Caterpillar 416 series2 Backhoe
Date: 29 Aug 1993 12:33:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <25q7nc$mlj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Dear George, 

I've got bad news and good news:

First the good news:  Caterpillar always requires a serial number
when you order replacement parts for them.  So if it's still in 
the states it will need repairs sooner or later.  Contact your 
Caterpillar dealer and tell him it's run away.

Now the bad news:  Because of this serial number requirement, most
stolen Caterpillars go to Mexico where no one asks any questions.
Catch it at the border?  Well, according to 60 Minutes 8000 to 
10,000 pieces of heavy equipment cross the border every year.  

Good news again?  I hope your father had insurance on it.  The
hard part about keeping heavy equipment is that they all use the
same key.  ie:  Every Caterpillar uses the same Caterpillar key.
All John Deere's will run off the same key too.  It would help
a lot if the manufacturers would put a little money into the 
keying systems.

Good luck!

Tricia


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!petel Mon Aug 30 22:58:21 EDT 1993
Article: 6226 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire)
Subject: Re: Ford 9N Questions, Yet Again
References: <1993Aug17.161142.13383@nntp.nta.no>
Message-ID: <1993Aug20.202859.24801@sequent.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: crg1.sequent.com
Sender: usenet@sequent.com (usenet )
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 93 20:28:59 GMT
Lines: 65

BARANSKI@veamf1.nusc.navy.mil (Jim Baranski) writes:

>I know that the old Ford Tractors have been talked about several times, but
>please bear with me...

We should start a ftp site with tractor directories... no I can't be a
ftp site :)

Don't worry with the number of 8/9N's out there you are not alone !

>I found a Ford 9N recently for $2000 with the standard 3 point hitch.  It
>seemed to be in pretty good shape.  It seems to be your stereotypical farm
>tractor, as opposed to the 3000-5000$ John Deer 340/430 Garden Tractor, or
>5K-10K$ Kobota compact tractors.

I never thought I'd say this but $2k is not a bad price for western,
semi-rural Oregon. BTW I sold my 9N/mott-mower when I left SE Penna in
'77 for $500, and my JD 4020/you name_it_impliments for $2200 !!

Tires enter into the formual real fast...

>With the 9N, I'm sure that I can pull any logs that I will want to pull as well
>as run any of the standard farm implements.  I'm sure that I will want to pull
>more then the garden tractors can pull, and the Kobota is big bucks, but it
>will probably pull as much as I need.

>I also want to be able to mow grass with the tractor I get (Spice's request).
>There is also a finish mower for sale.  The question I have is will the 9N
>agracultural tires tear up the grass?  Are turf tires available?  Mowing grass
>is really secondary, but I'm reluctant to spend 500$-1000$ buy a seperate
>mowing tractor.  We really don't have a *lot* of grass to mow.

Two thinks will get your grass. How tight you turn, and if you have
steep hills from sliding down them. With grass cutting the only 'pull'
you have is from the resistance of the grass. Not very much. I know you
can get 'turf' the size of what a 9N takes (I forget the size) but don't
think it's needed. I never had them on the grass I mowed.

>There is also some sort of sawmill rig for the tractor, which would be usefull.

I got a buzz-saw with the old Oliver 77 'play toy' I have (Had to take the
saw).  If what you got was such a beast, BE DAMN CAREFUL !!!!! if you are
thinking of using it. A lot of farmers have lost an arm or life from them.
Especially from the blade not being kept sharp.

>What other implements can be put on the 9N besides the standard three point
>hitch farm implements?  Is there a way to put a winch on the PTO to drag big
>stuff uphill?  is it possible to run a loader or backhoe on the 9N?  (I would
>guess probably not)

There were quite a few loaders made for the 9N. My friend has an
Industrial Ford (8N front, 9N tranny, Hyster Rear) that has a factory
built loader. The pump is driven of the crank starter spline.

There are 'bolt on' back-hoes but I've not seen one for a 9N. But there
were many 'gadgets' made for the 'furgusson system'.

-pete

          --------------------------------------------
          ----- Pete Lancashire petel@sequent.com ----
          -------- Kid in spirit. Big Brother --------
          -- Adopt ? ME ? I'm single !, Am I going ---
          ------------- crazy ? HELP -:) -------------
          --------------------------------------------


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!Freenet.carleton.ca!ae446 Mon Aug 30 22:59:53 EDT 1993
Article: 6266 of misc.rural
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From: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Subject: U.S. Wetlands Policy: White House Press Release
Message-ID: <CCB1HL.4uL@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
Reply-To: ae446@Freenet.carleton.ca (Nigel Allen)
Organization: The National Capital Freenet, Ottawa
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1993 07:44:09 GMT
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Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu sci.bio.ecology:118 misc.rural:6266 talk.environment:10666 sci.environment:28216 alt.current-events.flood-of-93:366


Here is a press release from the White House Office on 
Environmental Policy. I downloaded it from the PR On-Line BBS in 
Maryland at 410-363-0834. I do not work for the U.S. government.

 New Federal Wetlands Policy Offers Fair, Flexible Approach
Ends Agency Infighting and Gridlock with Strong Agreement
 To: National Desk, Environment Writer
 Contact: White House Office of Environmental Policy,
          220-456-2100

   WASHINGTON, Aug. 24  -- A new federal policy
that offers a fair, flexible and comprehensive approach to managing
America's wetlands was unveiled today (8/24) by nine federal
agencies, ending years of agency infighting and gridlock.
   "This plan is balanced and fair.  By bringing together all the
interested parties, we've moved beyond polarization and paralysis and
arrived at a plan that is flexible and effective," said Kathleen
McGinty, Director of the Office on Environmental Policy.
   Nine federal agencies were involved in the development of the
new wetlands initiative announced today, including the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Agriculture, and
the Army Corps of Engineers.  Since June, an interagency group
convened by the White House Office on Environmental Policy has heard
from farmers, environmentalists, developers, scientists, state and
local public officials, and members of Congress about our nation's
wetlands.
   The interagency working group was formed in response to a
request to President Clinton from seven U.S. Senators asking that the
White House take the lead in resolving the contentious wetlands
issues that have been the center of controversy and disagreements for
years.
   "The new agreement is a significant advance in protecting
American wetlands, which are currently being lost at a rate of nearly
300,000 acres per year," said Carol M. Browner, Administrator of the
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.  "The agreement is fair to
landowners at the same time that it protects our water quality and
wildlife."
   Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy said, "This new wetlands policy
is meaningful reform -- for the environment and for the farmers and
ranchers of America.  It is a fair and flexible policy that
simplifies the process of identifying wetlands and provides farmers a
simpler method for identifying federal requirements for wetland
conservation."
   The wetlands initiative includes more than 40 changes to current
wetlands policy, including establishing a more effective process so
that landowners and farmers can seek review of permit decisions
without having to go to court.
   Wetlands protection efforts in recent years have been
controversial, leading to years of protracted disagreements between
federal agencies that undercut the effectiveness of the program and
caused confusion and frustration among the states and with the
public.  The plan unveiled today breaks the gridlock caused in the
past by warring federal agencies and reflects a new consensus on a
wide-ranging set of improvements to the program.
   "The cooperation fostered in the interagency working group will
translate into better coordination in the field, more effective
wetlands protection, and a more efficient regulatory program," said
G. Edward Dickey, Acting Assistant Secretary of the Army for Civil
Works.
   Gerald B. Digerness, President of the National Association of
Conservation Districts and a dairy farmer said, "After years of
confusion and conflict regarding wetlands protection and regulation,
America's conservation districts welcome what appears to be a fair,
flexible and technically feasible approach that recognizes the
environmental, economic and social benefits of these valuable
resources."
   The plan will better protect wetlands by closing a loophole in
regulations that allowed certain destructive activities, such as
draining wetlands, to go unregulated.  It also expands a wetlands
reserve program to allow farmers to sell easements to the government
for wetlands restoration purposes.
   The plan includes several administrative actions that will take
effect over the next several months, as well as legislative
recommendations for Congress this fall as part of the reauthorization
of the Clean Water Act.
   Specifically, the wetlands plan will:

   -- Establish a new, efficient, money- and time-saving
administrative appeals process so that farmers and other landowners
can seek review of permit decisions without going to court;
   -- Continue use by all agencies of the 1987 wetlands delineation
manual pending completion and review of the National Academy of
Sciences study, expected in September 1994.  Any future revisions to
the manual will be subject to a public rule- making process;
   -- Impose deadlines and provide additional guidance so that
permitting decisions will be made in a timely and more predictable
fashion;
   -- Increase emphasis on state, tribal and local government
roles, as well as voluntary wetlands protection and restoration
programs with landowners;
   -- Reduce duplication and inconsistency for American farmers, by
designating the Soil Conservation Service of the U.S. Department of
Agriculture as the lead agency for wetlands determinations on
agricultural lands;
   -- Withdraw a proposed rule that would have left critical
Alaskan wetlands unprotected.

 -30-

-- 
Nigel Allen, Toronto, Ontario, Canada  ae446@freenet.carleton.ca


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!charnel!rat!decwrl!koriel!west.West.Sun.COM!fledge!popp Mon Aug 30 23:01:14 EDT 1993
Article: 6281 of misc.rural
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From: popp@fledge.West.Sun.COM (Jeff Popp)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Really dirty question.
Date: 25 Aug 1993 23:18:59 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
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References: <1993Aug25.211135.42616@rchland.ibm.com>
Reply-To: popp@fledge.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: fledge.west.sun.com


Most of the time something gets off-loaded from a dump truck, it forms
a sort of triangle shaped block, something like below:

                       /\
                      /  \
                     /    \
                    /      \
            -      /\       \
                  /  \      /  _
       height    /    \    /  
                /      \  /   length
            _  / _______\/   _
          
               |<width>|

If we apply the laws of geometry we all ignored in school, the volume of a
triangle is 1/2 the base times the height.  Therefore, the volume of the pile
of stuff in you driveway is going to be

                1/2 * width * height * length

   
               


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!carson.u.washington.edu!diannes Fri Sep  3 23:11:30 EDT 1993
Article: 6349 of misc.rural
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From: diannes@carson.u.washington.edu (Dianne Schoenberg)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Jurisdictional wetlands
Date: 31 Aug 1993 21:13:18 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <260ete$std@news.u.washington.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

I have been reading this group about three weeks now but this is my first
post--apologies in advance if it's a FAQ or not relevant to this group.

After many years of city living I am hoping to move out onto some acreage
in the country.  One of my primary reasons for doing this is that I'd 
like to keep a *small* (read 3-5) flock of sheep.  After many months
of looking I finally found a house on 2.3 acres that I can afford on
my limited budget.  My offer was the second one in and was accepted as
the backup offer--of course, I am hoping beyond hope that the first deal
falls through and that I can have this lovely place...

There's just one problem: part of the property is classified as wetlands,
and essentially all of it (except for the area immediately around the
house) is classified as a Native Growth Protection Easement area.  After
about two weeks of trying to get some information from the relevant 
county folks I finally got a call back from them and found out that the
restrictions on property so classified are far more strict than I'd ever
imagined.  I figured that there would be limitations on such things as
cutting trees or bringing in fill dirt--but according to the letter of the
law you're not supposed to disturb *any* vegetation.  You're not supposed
to plant anything either, though the woman from the county did tell me that
the county council is proposing new regulations to allow people to plant 
things that will "enhance" the wetlands (however they determine such
things); however the soonest the new regulations would take effect would
be a year or two from now.  Under the strictest possible reading of 
these regulations, about the only thing that would be allowed would be 
to *walk* on the property (and yes, that's specifically spelled out in the
zoning code; I went to the library and got a copy of it).

Here a description of the property is probably in order.  About an acre 
of it is on a fairly steep hillside that's covered in big-leaf maple,
salmonberry and stinging nettles; the soil is very soft and riddled with
springs.  This part of the property is classified as Native Growth
Protection Easement and I would *not* plan on doing anything to it other
than maybe put in a trail or two at some point; it's obviously a pretty
delicate ecosystem and I wouldn't want to mess with it.  The bottom part,
the part that's classified as wetlands, seems much less fragile to me. 
There's *no* standing water anywhere on it now and even keeping in mind 
that I'm seeing it in late August I have to wonder if there is at any
time of the year--the one area that is obviously somewhat lower than the
rest has some cattails and skunk cabbage growing on it and the soil is 
damp and black there, and there are two patches of horsetails but other
than that the vegetation is all things that I associate with dry areas
rather than wet.  The 1/2 acre on the south side is obviously overgrown
pasture (mostly non-native grass with one mature cedar right smack in the
center--and as far as I know cedar won't grow where it's wet).  The area
to the north had obviously been cleared at one time but has grown back
brush: blackberries, sweet peas, nightshade, elderberry etc.--mostly
non-native, opportunistic stuff.  There is a small creek maybe 1/4 a mile 
away on the far side of a highway from which I assume the "wetlands"
designation originated.

Here is my first question: can they *really* enforce a regulation that 
says you can't do as much as pull weeds on your own property?  If they can,
this property isn't worth a heck of a whole lot, to me or to anyone else.  
I really have a hard time believing that the county really is in a
position to enforce such a thing--after all, they can hardly keep track 
of every sizable tree, let alone every weed (yet I still have this vision
of myself sneaking out in the middle of the night to pull weeds (:-(.)  
Keep in mind that I'm *not* talking about running a bulldozer over the
whole thing and putting in a parking lot or a golf course or something--
I'm very much in favor of the *spirit* of the legislation, but I'd like
very much to clear out some of the nasty stuff (the sweet peas that are
strangling one of the trees, for example) and plant some fruit trees &
wildflowers & such.  One of the things that attracts me to this property 
is its varied topography & vegetation & capability to nourish wildlife and
I'd like to *build* on that as much as I can--is it *likely* that I'd be
fined or thrown in jail or be slapped on the wrist for having done such 
a terrible thing--?

The problem of wanting to keep livestock is a little more complex.  As 
it happens, there's an exception in the zoning laws that says that if a
wetlands was used for agricultural purposes (including grazing) prior to 
the inception of the law in 1990 that it can continue to be so used. 
The south side *clearly* used to be pasture even though the fence was
removed on two side and I'm sure it's not been used as such since the
property was last purchased in 1988 as an investment.  I would have to get
permission from the county to put a fence up but the woman on the phone
assured me that they are pretty reasonable about such requests.  Again, if
I were to fence it and then just go ahead and get some sheep, how likely
would it be that the county would come after me for doing so (since it
seems likely that they would tell me it was *not* OK if I asked)?

The other fact that I'm having to weigh is that most of the other open
space in the county (a highly urbanized one) has similar restrictions on
it--if I were to give up on this parcel (which I could do at this point
without penalty) I'm not sure I'd be much better off looking for something
else.

Again, please let me reiterate that I'm fully in agreement with the
*spirit* of the restrictions on this property, it's just that a very 
literal interpretation of the laws would not allow me to do what I'd 
like to do with it.  I tend to be very much a straight-arrow and a 
law-abiding person, and it feels somewhat risky to me to buy a piece of
property assuming I will be able to do something with it that I may not
actually be able to do.  In fact, if the other deal falls through and I 
am a position to procede with my offer I will certainly get advice from an
attorney experienced with local zoning codes before doing so--but in the
meantime I'd very much appreciate advice from others who may have
experienced similar situations.

Dianne


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!icon.rose.hp.com!hpchase.rose.hp.com!ehill Fri Sep  3 23:11:55 EDT 1993
Article: 6350 of misc.rural
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From: ehill@hprpcd.rose.hp.com (Eric Hill)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: how to preserve fence post cheaply
Date: 31 Aug 1993 21:43:59 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site
Lines: 4
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References: <ANDY.93Aug31092353@elviss.eng.sun.com>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]

I dug the holes a little oversize and put crushed limestone around the posts. 
I had to pull a post 8 years later and it looked like new.

Eric Hill


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!att-out!cbnewsl!spf Fri Sep  3 23:12:11 EDT 1993
Article: 6351 of misc.rural
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From: spf@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: how to preserve fence post cheaply
Message-ID: <CCn2xu.5w@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Date: 31 Aug 93 19:46:39 GMT
References: <ANDY.93Aug31092353@elviss.eng.sun.com>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 17

>From article <ANDY.93Aug31092353@elviss.eng.sun.com>, by andy@elviss.eng.sun.com (Andrew Davidson):
> 
> I have a ten acre pasture I want to fence. I can get all the fence post
> I need from trees on my property. The trouble is finding a cheap way
> to preserve them. The local lumber yards sell something called "Copper
> Green" for $10 a gallon. Is there any thing cheaper/better. As a side
> note, I live in California. Many products are no longer avaliable, so I
> expect I will have to order this stuff from out of state.

I don't know what sorts of trees you folks have out there, but I use
untreated locust posts.

They last the same 30 years that wolmanized pine lasts, without the
extra work, chemicals or cost.  If you've got (or can get) locust,
that'd be your best bet.

Steve


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hp-mcm!hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com!steve Fri Sep  3 23:13:32 EDT 1993
Article: 6359 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: steve@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com (Steve Cooper)
Subject: Re: how to preserve fence post cheaply
Sender: news@mcm.hp.com
Message-ID: <CCp10v.BGs@mcm.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1993 21:00:31 GMT
References: <ANDY.93Aug31092353@elviss.eng.sun.com>
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Andrew Davidson (andy@elviss.eng.sun.com) wrote:

: I have a ten acre pasture I want to fence. I can get all the fence post
: I need from trees on my property. The trouble is finding a cheap way
: to preserve them. The local lumber yards sell something called "Copper
: Green" for $10 a gallon. Is there any thing cheaper/better. As a side
: note, I live in California. Many products are no longer avaliable, so I
: expect I will have to order this stuff from out of state.

: thanks in advance


: Andy


I live in Oregon and I put in some posts that were pressure treated
cedar and they rotted out in about 4 years.  I ended up cementing some
painted steel 1/4 x 2 inch bars into the ground and then bolting the
fence post "stumps" (what was left above ground) to the bars.  It rains
alot here and the ground is damp most of the time.  I'd sure like a good
solution if anyone knows of one.


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!Freenet.carleton.ca!af017 Fri Sep  3 23:16:24 EDT 1993
Article: 6368 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: af017@Freenet.carleton.ca (David R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Poison Ivy Control
Message-ID: <CCrD85.4Ir@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (News Administrator)
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 03:19:17 GMT
Lines: 22


I checked through a few indexes and here are some =not so
encouraging= articles about 2,4-D:

Herbicide linked to canine cancer. (2,4-D)
Los Angeles Times v110  Sept 9, 1991 B3

Lawn herbicide called cancer risk for dogs. (2,4-D shown to 
cause lymphoma) National Pages
New York Times. Sept 4, 1991. A17

EPA declines to probe herbicide; NCI has linked widely used
chemical to cancer in farmers. (2,4-D)
Washington Post   Nov 9, 1987   29(W) 312(E)

Johnson E.S. et al:
Current serum levels of 2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin
in phenoxy acid herbicide applicators and characterization
of historical levels.
Journal of the National Cancer Institute. Nov 4, 1992
V84 N21:1648-1653



From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.cc.lehigh.edu!ns1.cc.lehigh.edu!jrb6 Fri Sep  3 23:17:40 EDT 1993
Article: 6376 of misc.rural
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From: jrb6@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JAMES RONALD BERARDI)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: how to preserve fence post cheaply
Message-ID: <1993Sep3.202452.63384@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
Date: 3 Sep 93 20:24:52 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University
Lines: 44

>Andrew Davidson (andy@elviss.eng.sun.com) wrote:
>
>I live in Oregon and I put in some posts that were pressure treated
>cedar and they rotted out in about 4 years.  I ended up cementing some
>painted steel 1/4 x 2 inch bars into the ground and then bolting the
>fence post "stumps" (what was left above ground) to the bars.  It rains
>alot here and the ground is damp most of the time.  I'd sure like a good
>solution if anyone knows of one.
>

    In this months issue of HorsePlay magazine, there was a small article on
fences.  the author, Jennifer Hedden, glorified the use of PVC fencing because
of its resistance to humidity (the major warpeing factor of wood fences),
insects and decay.  She also touched on steel, mesh and wire fencing.  Most
people are not ready to break from the traditional wooden fencing, so there's
vinal-clad material (I'm not quite certain on how expensive this is, but a
good thing to keep in mind is that 'use of inferior materials will shorten the
useful life of the fence and increase maitenance and repair costs.  Some of
the most expensive fencing are the best buys in terms of cost per year of use.')


Some maitenance tips (for wood fencing):
    Be sure to keep the fence row clear of weeds and other debris which can
hasten post and rail deterioration.
    Fences should be painted as often as anually, depending on your climate.
    Rails made of pressure treated wood should not be painted.
    Do not paint the underside of each board so that excess moisture can
evaporate.


If anyone has used the tips in the past have any comments. . .

James



-- 


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From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic.csu.net!eis.CalState.EDU!bmoon Sun Sep 12 05:48:40 EDT 1993
Article: 6390 of misc.rural
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Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Laying chickens-light, stew, keep?
Message-ID: <CD1Hup.4n9@eis.calstate.edu>
From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 14:35:13 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information ServicesOur laying hens our a year old. I understand we need togive them
Lines: 8

light at this point to lengthen the day to delay molt and get two months
more of laying. I also understan that following molt, production will fall
but on the average eggs will be larger. What say ye? Do we put the light
on? Turn the chickens to stew in February? Keep them?

--
Bruce Moon
Rio Linda, CA


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!koriel!newscast.West.Sun.COM!seven-up.East.Sun.COM!dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM!scout!barrya Sun Sep 12 05:50:47 EDT 1993
Article: 6394 of misc.rural
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From: barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM (Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.consumers.house,rec.food.cooking
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
Date: 8 Sep 1993 19:31:02 GMT
Organization: Sun
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <26lbtm$cgt@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM>
References: <1993Sep8.130403.29246@gandalf.ca>
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Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:6394 misc.consumers.house:39111 rec.food.cooking:56630

/tmp/rrn7342.15861
>Living on a rural property, as I see it, I have 2 choices for a new
>stove top/oven in a new kitchen - electric or propane. I've heard lots
>of comments about gas heating, but assume they refer to natural gas,
>not propane. As a point of reference, I've only ever cooked on an 
>electric stove.
>
I also agree that gas (propane or natural) beats electric any day.  I
have used all 3 and will (given the choice) never install electric
again for a variety of reasons (listed below).  In general though
propane and gas are synonomous in functionality.  They provide similar
function but have some different features and properties that may
affect things like installation.

>So, WRT electric vs propane, any comments on :
>
>1.  quality of heat

If by quality you mean efficiency, it is similar to natural gas
(approximately 80% efficient).  Propane provides approximately 92,000
BTU/gal compared to 1000 BTU/cu.ft. for natural gas.

>2.  cost of equipment

All of the equipment is identical to natural gas equipment with
propane burner units added.  This usually is a small modification to
the burner jets to handle the liquid (larger jets).

>3.  cost of operation

Propane costs vary but around here they are about 2 times the cost of
natural gas.  I've included a comparison below that I did several
years ago that breaks this down to more of an equal comparison across
the different heat types.

>4.  how often does a propane tank need to be filled?
Depends on the size and what is hooked up.  I had a 500 (?) gal tank
that ran everything (heater, hot water, stove, and dryer), but heated
primarily with wood. The tank was filled on a schedule 4 times a year,
and was usually only about 1/2 empty each time (150-200 gallons).

>5.  we will have (hopefully) a very tight house with mechanical ventilation.
>    Are there any air quality issues?
Some people say that using propane leaves a distinct smell.  I did
notice it on a few occasions, but generally did not (I may have simply
become accustomed to it though).  In any case, it was never something
that was terribly noticeable (only once or twice in 5 years did any of
our regular house/party guests every notice it) and it is definitely
not offensive (IMHO).

>6.  Safety?
Have it professionally install first off.  I would also select
pilotless appliances.  In addition, if you expect to every see natural
gas coming up the street, use black iron piping instead of the copper
runs you can get.  LP is a heavier than air material, and if leaks
develop they will literally flood a cellar (at least until they get to
the pilot light :-{ ).  Using black iron, I felt at least a bit more
comfortable that an occasional knock wouldn't rupture the line.  In
actuallity, I don't think it would have with copper anyway (we had it
for 2 years), but black iron is also required for natural gas (due to
the pressure), so the upgrade was in preparation for the gas company
coming within reach.

In addition to heating there are some convenience aspects as well.
Electricity does not require the placement of a tank (more difficult
if you get a larger one).  LP will not leave you cold if the
electricity goes out during a cold winter storm.  Electricity is slow
to get things up to temp (cooking) and remains hot for a period
afterwards, gas is instant.

Standard comparison method for multiple heat sources
***************************************************
Source	units		Therm/unit	efficiency
______	_____		________	__________
Wood	cord		210/cord	0.7
Coal	ton		272/ton		0.7
N. Gas	cu. ft.		.01/cf		0.8
LP	gallon		.92/gal		0.8
Oil	gallon		1.385/gal	0.8
Elec	kwhr		.03412/kwhr	1.0

To figure out the relative cost find the costs in your area for these
sources, and plug them into the formula:
	cost/unit / ( Therm/unit * efficiency) = relative cost

sample results (outdated new england prices)
--------------
wood @$145/cord => $0.99/Therm
coal @$140/ton  => $0.74/Therm
gas  @$.70/100cf=> $0.88/Therm
LP   @$.90/gal  => $1.23/Therm
Oil  @$.70/gal  => $0.72/Therm
elec @$.10/kwhr => $2.93/Therm

-- 
                                                       ___
    o       /------------------------------------/    /  / __          
   _-\ _ ~~< barry.andreasen@scout.East.Sun.COM <    /--<  _/ /- /- / /
  (*)<(*)   \------------------------------------\  /___/ (_)/  /  /_/ 
                                                              ______/
***********************************************************************
I said it, perhaps I meant it, but regardless, I speak only for myself!
***********************************************************************


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza Sun Sep 12 05:58:14 EDT 1993
Article: 6404 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
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From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Was: Bats!; now Rabies
Message-ID: <CD3B5C.DEu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
Nntp-Posting-Host: bronze.ucs.indiana.edu
Organization: Indiana University
References: <ln21531.171@sander.lockheed.com> <CD24x7.HCo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <ln21531.172@sander.lockheed.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 14:05:35 GMT
Lines: 33

In article <ln21531.172@sander.lockheed.com> ln21531@sander.lockheed.com (Jan Marshall) writes:
>
>Sigh again.  This thread got started because the original poster wants to 
>start some kind of bat haven in his/her attic.  I'd say the possibilities of 
>getting rabies from any rabid bats in such a situation are pretty high.

I hate to jump into your little flamefest, but I've been dealing with
bats for 10 years now, and as I posted in a very early post to this
thread, the chances of contracting rabies from having bats in the
attic are quite low.  This was confirmed by Indiana Dept. of Natural
Resources non-game fish and wildlife naturalist Scott Johnson, who
specializes in bats, when he gave a lecture on bats to our caving
group a year or so ago.  I was quite interested because I handle bats
on a regular basis and am intending to start a colony out at the
ranch.
This was also confirmed by bat expert Dr. Suthers, of Indiana
University, from a lecture 3 years ago he gave to our caving group.  
This can also be confirmed through BCI (Bat Conservation
International) headed by Merlin Tuttle.  

Again, as I posted before, one should not handle wild bats unless they
have experience doing so and take precautions, but a bat colony in the
attic is *not* going to pose a significant rabies hazard for the
occupants of the house.  If anyone is having problems and would like
to evict a colony, feel free to email me, I've got quite a bit of
experience in that area :-(.


-- 
Anmar Mirza   #Chief of Tranquility  # I don't need to carry a weapon,
EMT-D         #Base, Lawrence Co. IN # People talk to me long enough they
N9ISY (tech)  #Somewhere out on the  # then go and hurt themselves.
Networks Tech.#Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# ---Patti Cummings


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!bronze.ucs.indiana.edu!amirza Sun Sep 12 06:00:40 EDT 1993
Article: 6409 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,misc.rural
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From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: A question on solar cells (probably a FAQ) 
Message-ID: <CD56KC.D12@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System)
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References: <2515r7$68r@garuda.csulb.edu> <6ckg0B1w165w@interphase.com> <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 14:21:47 GMT
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Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:39239 sci.energy:16183 misc.rural:6409

In article <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU> aulie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew DeBell) writes:
> Just a quick question about solar cells:
>
>What is the theoretical maximum amount of electric power that can 
>be generated using a solar cell of a given size (say, 1 m^2)? 
>

Current cost effective efficiencies are in the 14-17% range.  The
maximum achieved using multi-layer thin film has been 29%.  I think
the theoretical maximum is ~60%, but that's from memory and is
probably wrong.

Now, you ask about how much power that translates into, that will
depend on where you are, time of day, and orientation in respect to
the sun.  Around here in Southern Indiana we average 4.5 peak hours
solar radiation daily.  Dept. of Geography here at IU maintains a
weather station that measures solar radiation, and around here the
peak amount during the clearest days of fall (the peak time) is around
830 watts per square meter.  Which corresponds with my measured usable
output at short circuit of my panels at home, when the efficiencies
are calculated in.

Now, if you are out in space, solar radiation is going to be higher, I
think it's 1.3 kW per square meter, so your cell will put out a higher
amount of power.

What does this mean?  Ok, some real world statistics based on my
measurements over a year period.

A 48 watt panel, 36 cells, spec'd at 15.9 volts, 3.02A (a Siemans
M75), running a constant load source at 12.9 volts, put out 3.1A at
peak. The panel was flat mounted on my roof with some eastern
obstruction.  Over the year the daily average current output was 21.3A.
The highest peak recorded was during a partially cloudy day and that
was at 3.6A.  The reason for that comes from rereflected light from
the undersides of clouds.  This effect was first noted during a
Solar-Powered car race in Australia I believe, but is a transient
effect and the partially cloudy day lowers overall power output.

Other effects noted.

During cloudy days the panel would put out anywhere from 10-30% of
rated power depending on how overcast.  Even on the most overcast days
the panel would be putting out a couple hundred milliamps.  The bulk
of this seemed to be UV, as a glass cover placed over the panel
dropped output significantly.  Clouds don't attentuate UV as much it
seems. 

When I plotted it out I noted an odd anomaly, there were three periods
over the year where for about a week there would be power measured at
night.  I checked, and those three periods corresponded with the
phases of the moon.  It seems I was getting about a couple hundred mA
from the light reflected from the moon.  Those three periods also
corresponded to times of clear weather, and higher daily averages.

I also couldn't zero the plot.  It seems the streetlights were giving
me a few mA as well.






-- 
Anmar Mirza   #Chief of Tranquility  # I don't need to carry a weapon,
EMT-D         #Base, Lawrence Co. IN # People talk to me long enough they
N9ISY (tech)  #Somewhere out on the  # then go and hurt themselves.
Networks Tech.#Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# ---Patti Cummings


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!att-out!cbnewsj!cbnewsi!cbnewsh!cbnewse!cbnewsd!cbnewsc!cbfsb!cbnews!cbnewst!cbnewsm!cbnewsl!spf Sun Sep 12 06:02:37 EDT 1993
Article: 6412 of misc.rural
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From: spf@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,misc.rural
Subject: Re: A question on solar cells (probably a FAQ)
Message-ID: <CD55LJ.LzI@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Date: 10 Sep 93 14:00:52 GMT
References: <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 13
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:39264 sci.energy:16185 misc.rural:6412

>From article <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU>, by aulie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew DeBell):
>  Just a quick question about solar cells:
> 
> What is the theoretical maximum amount of electric power that can 
> be generated using a solar cell of a given size (say, 1 m^2)? 

Maximum solar energy available on the surface of the earth is 1360 watts/m^2.
(Straightforward calculation based upon the Stefan-Boltzman Law E=kAT^4).
 
The average, accounting for day/night variation is 1/4 of this (340 W/m^2).
(This ignores other losses, of course.))

Steve Frysinger


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Sun Sep 12 06:02:56 EDT 1993
Article: 6413 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: A question on solar cells (probably a FAQ) 
Message-ID: <1993Sep10.165241.11917@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
References: <2515r7$68r@garuda.csulb.edu> <6ckg0B1w165w@interphase.com> <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 16:52:41 GMT
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Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:39267 sci.energy:16186 misc.rural:6413

In article <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU> aulie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew DeBell) writes:
> Just a quick question about solar cells:
>
>What is the theoretical maximum amount of electric power that can 
>be generated using a solar cell of a given size (say, 1 m^2)? 

Well, you can start with the solar constant which gives a total
radiant flux of 1,388 watts/sq meter in orbit. Then reduce that
by the amount that is energetic enough to activate the photoelectric
effect in the cell material, basically the visible and UV portions
of the spectrum, and factor that by the absorption of the atmosphere
at those wavelengths. That gives you the amount available at Earth's
surface. That leaves you with about 450 watts/meter^2 the cell could
use if the cell were 100% efficient at it's active wavelengths. Cells 
aren't 100% efficient, so it is somewhat less.

Gary

-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |"If 10% is good enough | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | for Jesus, it's good  | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             | enough for Uncle Sam."| emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     | -Ray Stevens          | 


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov!csi.jpl.nasa.gov!nobody Sun Sep 12 06:03:32 EDT 1993
Article: 6414 of misc.rural
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From: eldred@rrunner.jpl.nasa.gov (Dan Eldred)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,misc.rural
Subject: Re: A question on solar cells (probably a FAQ)
Date: 10 Sep 1993 11:44:11 -0700
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory
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Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:39276 sci.energy:16189 misc.rural:6414

In article <1993Sep10.165241.11917@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>In article <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU> aulie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew DeBell) writes:
>> Just a quick question about solar cells:
>>
>>What is the theoretical maximum amount of electric power that can 
>>be generated using a solar cell of a given size (say, 1 m^2)? 
>
>Well, you can start with the solar constant which gives a total
>radiant flux of 1,388 watts/sq meter in orbit. Then reduce that
>by the amount that is energetic enough to activate the photoelectric
>effect in the cell material, basically the visible and UV portions
>of the spectrum, and factor that by the absorption of the atmosphere
>at those wavelengths. That gives you the amount available at Earth's
>surface. That leaves you with about 450 watts/meter^2 the cell could
>use if the cell were 100% efficient at it's active wavelengths. Cells 
>aren't 100% efficient, so it is somewhat less.
>
Let me add to the previous post.  Gallium arsenide solar cells are
about 18% efficient and silicon is about 12% efficient, for spacecraft
grade solar cells.  Commercial grade solar cells will be less efficient.
Plus, the gallium arsenide cells are relatively new and not generally
available.  So, assuming 10% efficiciency in silicon cells you end
up with about 140 watts/m^2.  That's in outer space.  From this you
have to subtract for atmospheric absorption plus account for the fact
that the cells may not be pointed directly at the sun (multiply by the
cosine of the angle).  There is also a "packing factor" which is the
ratio of surface area on the solar cell array occupied by cells vs. wasted
space.  The packing ratio for round solar cells is less than 78%.  There
is also dirt on the cover plate.  You can get down to 5% efficiency (70 W)
pretty quickly.

	- Dan



From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!uunet.ca!ecicrl!clewis Sun Sep 12 06:05:15 EDT 1993
Article: 6416 of misc.rural
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From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Was: Bats!; now Rabies
Message-ID: <4632@ecicrl.ocunix.on.ca>
Date: 11 Sep 93 03:02:20 GMT
References: <ln21531.169@sander.lockheed.com> <ln21531.171@sander.lockheed.com> <CD24x7.HCo@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <ln21531.172@sander.lockheed.com>
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada
Lines: 61

In article <ln21531.172@sander.lockheed.com> ln21531@sander.lockheed.com (Jan Marshall) writes:
>Sigh again.  This thread got started because the original poster wants to 
>start some kind of bat haven in his/her attic.  I'd say the possibilities of 
>getting rabies from any rabid bats in such a situation are pretty high.

Sigh indeed.

You have a better chance at catching rabies from a cow at a petting zoo.

Ontario has one of the highest incidence of rabies anywhere in the world,
with approx 1500 confirmed cases in animals, and 2200 sets of rabies series
shots given to people yearly.  60% of the animals are domestic dogs and cats.
Most of the rest are skunks, foxes and squirrels.  Every year there are
about a dozen confirmed cases of rabies in domestic cattle.  With all of
the hysteria about rabies in bats, on average, less than one bat is
found to have rabies in Ontario yearly.  Less than one...

Those are pretty good odds.  Especially since the MOH is so good at pursuing
cases, that the last person to catch rabies was back in the early '50s.

It is not a good idea to encourage bats in your attic.  Not because of
rabies, but because of the toxoplasmosis hazard from bat feces.  Or, indeed,
having your ceiling deteriorate and collapse on your head from the weight
and dampness of bat feces and bat pee.

Toxoplasmosis is usually a pretty innocuous organism.  Something like 40%
of the human population already has the "bug".  And the bug is present
in the feces of many other animals, eg: cat litter boxes.  However, pregnant
women/ unborn fetuses are sometimes extremely susceptable.  And, contact with
large quantities of the bug (you're trying to shovel out the attic)
can have extreme consequences - up to and including blindness, brain damage
or death.  A few (3-5) people suffer these consequences in Ontario per year.

Cleaning out bat feces is sufficiently hazardous, that contractors removing
the material are required by the government to use class-three isolation suits
(complete with air packs).  Rather like asbestos, but here the hazard is
much better proven.

Bats are extremely valuable animals.  They're about the best bug controllers
there are.  People *should* encourage them.  But not in their attics.

If you encounter bats in your attic during the spring/summer, there are simple
ways to evict them without harming them.  Ie: waiting for them all to
leave on their nightly foraging, and block up the access holes.  If you
do this, it would be a really good idea to put up a bat box or three near
your house to provide them with alternate lodgings.  Keep your fingers
crossed that they stay nearby.  It is really fascinating to watch
them swoop around catching insects.  And if you're like me, living
too close to mosquito country, you'll really appreciate their activities.

If, on the other hand, you find bats in your attic during the late fall
or winter, leave them alone!  They go into a hibernation-like state for
most of the cold weather.  If you disturb them, they will wake up.  But,
chances are that they will use up so much energy waking up, that they
will not have enough left for the rest of the winter and will die.  There
is no need to evict them during the late fall or winter, because they're
hibernating and won't be producing much feces at all.
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary Tue Sep 14 21:54:52 EDT 1993
Article: 6413 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,sci.energy,misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary
From: gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: A question on solar cells (probably a FAQ) 
Message-ID: <1993Sep10.165241.11917@ke4zv.atl.ga.us>
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
References: <2515r7$68r@garuda.csulb.edu> <6ckg0B1w165w@interphase.com> <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 16:52:41 GMT
Lines: 23
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:39267 sci.energy:16186 misc.rural:6413

In article <1993Sep10.034124.701@leland.Stanford.EDU> aulie@leland.Stanford.EDU (Matthew DeBell) writes:
> Just a quick question about solar cells:
>
>What is the theoretical maximum amount of electric power that can 
>be generated using a solar cell of a given size (say, 1 m^2)? 

Well, you can start with the solar constant which gives a total
radiant flux of 1,388 watts/sq meter in orbit. Then reduce that
by the amount that is energetic enough to activate the photoelectric
effect in the cell material, basically the visible and UV portions
of the spectrum, and factor that by the absorption of the atmosphere
at those wavelengths. That gives you the amount available at Earth's
surface. That leaves you with about 450 watts/meter^2 the cell could
use if the cell were 100% efficient at it's active wavelengths. Cells 
aren't 100% efficient, so it is somewhat less.

Gary

-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |"If 10% is good enough | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems | for Jesus, it's good  | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             | enough for Uncle Sam."| emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary 
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     | -Ray Stevens          | 


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!bj368 Tue Sep 14 22:01:09 EDT 1993
Article: 6420 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!bj368
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Engineers say nix to pigfarmer
Date: 13 Sep 1993 12:02:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <271nh6$1nc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


from Earth Island Journal Summer 1993 (reprints encourage with
credit given)

After pig farmer Roy Sharp built a lagoon to treat the wastes
from his 16,000 hogs and covered it with a tent to control
odors, he wondered if he could burn the trapped methane
gases to produce electricity.  
Engineers told him it would never be cost effective, since
such a system could not produce more than 26 kilowatts of
electricity per hour.
Sharp built the system anyway.
"We're now getting about 140 kilowatts an hour during the
summer," Sharp told the San Francisco Chronicle.
The pig gas power plant produces enough energy to cover
the farm's monthly $3000 electricity bill.
Meanwhile Sharp receives $300-700 a month from the power
company for the excess electricity he is pumping into
the utility grid.

(do I hear a grunt of approval from the engineers?)
Mike Romano


From samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!cs0.dasd.honeywell.com!burro.dasd.honeywell.com!owl.dasd.honeywell.com!sko Tue Sep 14 22:04:45 EDT 1993
Article: 6424 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.consumers.house,rec.food.cooking
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!cs0.dasd.honeywell.com!burro.dasd.honeywell.com!owl.dasd.honeywell.com!sko
From: sko@owl.dasd.honeywell.com
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
Message-ID: <1993Sep13.090149.1@owl.dasd.honeywell.com>
Lines: 20
Sender: news@burro.dasd.honeywell.com (USENET News System)
Organization: Honeywell Inc. DASD
References: <1993Sep8.130403.29246@gandalf.ca>
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 16:01:49 GMT
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu misc.rural:6424 misc.consumers.house:39361 rec.food.cooking:56850

In article <1993Sep8.130403.29246@gandalf.ca>, rmurray@gandalf.ca (Randy Murray Test Eng) writes:

>.....
> 3.  cost of operation

Here in New Mexico:
Each gal of Propane rates 92,600 BTU	cost 75-90 cents
Each Therm of Gas rates 100,000 BTU	costs about 45 cents 
Each KWhr of Electricity rates 3,413 BTU cost 9 cents inavg, (or $2.63  for
100,000 BTU)

> 4.  how often does a propane tank need to be filled?

	(Number of Gal) * (92600 BTU/gal) /(total BTU consumption per day)

>....


Shang



From mdrews@iguana.dsd.es.com Wed Sep 22 21:57:38 EDT 1993
Article: 6445 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!orca.es.com!iguana!mdrews
From: mdrews@iguana.dsd.es.com (Michael Drews)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Eco-friendly war on bugs
Followup-To: misc.rural
Date: 15 Sep 1993 19:00:50 GMT
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <277op2$lne@orca.es.com>
Reply-To: mdrews@iguana.dsd.es.com (Michael Drews)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.187.85.32

A while back there was a discussion about controlling bugs without using 
pesticides.  I believe the suggested method was to use a powder that 
abraded holes in their exoskeleton which caused them to dehydrate.  This 
sounds better to me than spraying diazanon in my house.  Unfortunately, I 
don't remember what the exact substance was, but it was something like 
boric acid or diatomaceous earth.  Could somebody please e-mail to me 
what the suggested method was?  If there appears to be sufficient interest 
interest I will summarize and post.  

				Michael Drews
				(mdrews@dsd.es.com)

-- 
----------
LPs are preferred by most people for Frisbees(tm),
CDs are preferred by most people for coasters,
but throw or set your drinks on whatever works best for *you*.


From ries@beach.csulb.edu Wed Sep 22 21:58:04 EDT 1993
Article: 6451 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!csulb.edu!ries
From: ries@beach.csulb.edu (Marc Ries)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Eco-friendly war on bugs
Date: 16 Sep 1993 15:57:07 GMT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <27a2cj$jlk@garuda.csulb.edu>
References: <277op2$lne@orca.es.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: beach.csulb.edu

In article <277op2$lne@orca.es.com>,
Michael Drews <mdrews@iguana.dsd.es.com> wrote:
>A while back there was a discussion about controlling bugs without using 
>pesticides.  I believe the suggested method was to use a powder that 
>abraded holes in their exoskeleton which caused them to dehydrate.  This 
>sounds better to me than spraying diazanon in my house.  Unfortunately, I 
>don't remember what the exact substance was, but it was something like 
>boric acid or diatomaceous earth.  

  Diatomaceous Earth physically kills the "bugs" by puncturing the 
     exoskeleton. Make sure you DON'T get the kind used for pool/spa
     filters, as this will not have the same effect. DE is also
     used for internal parasite control in animals. 

  Boric Acid chemically kills the bugs by dehydrating them. 

  A new commercial pesticide has just been released that is based
  on garlic extract (there are a variety of "home recipes" for 
  similar spray) at about $20/pint [a gallon will cover 19 acres].

  There is also insecticidal soaps, etc. 



From bapgar@uoguelph.ca Wed Sep 22 21:59:45 EDT 1993
Article: 6453 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!utcsri!utnut!torn!nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca!herman!bapgar
From: bapgar@uoguelph.ca (Bill Apgar)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: farmer access to ag info by computer
Summary: seeking help locating farmers who network electronically
Keywords: rural_telecomputing, computers, computers_on_the_farm
Message-ID: <27af8j$mrt@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca>
Date: 16 Sep 93 19:36:51 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
Lines: 19
NNTP-Posting-Host: herman.cs.uoguelph.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]


If you are a farmer and use your computer to gather ag info or to
share information with other farmers, extension agents, suppliers,
local government officials, please contact me.

If you are a farmer and use Compuserve, Prodigy, etc., or a FreeNet(tm)
or BBS (especially a totally Ag-BBS), I want to hear from you.

If you are a partner of a farmer who has access to the Internet via
your place of work (CCS at a university, for example), and are the
one who gets ag info, let me know.

I am researching farmer/rural access to agricultural and related
information and networking via telecomputing.  I am willing to
share information with other researchers, farmers, related businesses,
etc.  Contact me.

Thanks
William H. Apgar M.Ed. (in an M.Sc. program in rural extension


From jag@iti.org Sun Oct 24 21:16:14 EDT 1993
Article: 6657 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!uunet!hela.iti.org!jag
From: jag@iti.org (Jacqueline A. Giles)
Subject: Re: Harvesting black walnuts
Message-ID: <1993Oct15.125309.19224@iti.org>
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
References: <JCH.93Oct14152128@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 12:53:09 GMT
Lines: 31

In article <JCH.93Oct14152128@mitchell.cit.cornell.edu> jch@nr-tech.cit.cornell.edu (Jeffrey C Honig) writes:
>One of our black walnut trees is producing this year.  Last night we
>picked up and husked several hundred nuts.  I threw out all the ones
>where the husk around the nut had a significant amount of black.  Now
>what do I do with the nuts?  I get the impression that they have to
>dry out for a while.
>

Fist, try to retrieve all the nuts you through out.  The blackened
husk is not a problem, in fact it makes husking alot easier.

You should husk a couple and crack the nut to see if your tree is
producing "good" nuts.  If there is meat in the few you crack then
great!

All the nuts should be husked, and then dried.  Husking can be done
in a number of ways, shuch as putting the nuts in the drive way or
road, and driving over them with a car, or, as an uncle did, he used
an old wooden chair and drilled a hole that was slightly larger than
the hard nut.  Then just hammer the nuts through and the husks come
off.  The nut is driven through.  Much easier with rotting husks
though (blackened).  Let the husked nuts dry for a couple of weeks,
in a place that critters cannot get to, then crack and store in the
freezer, or crack and clean as needed.  Reduce the amount of nuts
used in recipes as black walnuts are very strong.

>Thanks.
>
>Jeff




From ries@beach.csulb.edu Sun Oct 24 21:16:48 EDT 1993
Article: 6659 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.claremont.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!csulb.edu!ries
From: ries@beach.csulb.edu (Marc Ries)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.misc,misc.rural
Subject: soap making
Date: 15 Oct 1993 14:42:35 GMT
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <29mcsr$ddg@garuda.csulb.edu>
References: <CEvzAF.AJH@world.std.com> <SIMONS.93Oct12142731@tuntu.think.com> <CEwtE4.47w@freenet.carleton.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: beach.csulb.edu
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu rec.crafts.misc:2295 misc.rural:6659

In article <CEwtE4.47w@freenet.carleton.ca>,
>>I can send you a veggie soap recipe, but if you've never made
>>soap before, it's much easier to start off with a recipe that
>>uses animal fat.  Animal soaps are much easier to get to 
>>saponify/harden without curdling.
>>
>>Lisa Vawter
>>
>Lisa speaks the truth! My first attempt at soapmaking was with a veggie
>recipe and it was a minor disaster.  My second attempt--using tallow I had
>rendered from suet--has turned out *much* better. I use REd Devil lye,
>too--but don't mistake it for Draino!

 Hmmm. Our first attempt was with the kit from SunFeather Soap Company and
 it turned out fine and it has no animal fat. The only modification we
 did was to use blueberry juice with the lye for some added color.
 
 I'll admit that at first we thought the soap was botched because even
 after about 45 minutes of stirring it produced only a small skim 
 coat. But 48 hours later it was just fine. Biggest thing right now
 is that it seems to take forever to "harden" off the bars.

 -marc



From simons@tuntu.think.com Sun Oct 24 21:17:18 EDT 1993
Article: 6687 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!news.think.com!simons
From: simons@tuntu.think.com (Joshua Simons)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.misc,misc.rural
Subject: Re: soap making
Date: 18 Oct 93 18:01:21
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <SIMONS.93Oct18180121@tuntu.think.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tuntu.think.com
In-reply-to: ries@beach.csulb.edu's message of 15 Oct 1993 14:42:35 GMT
Xref: samba.oit.unc.edu rec.crafts.misc:2306 misc.rural:6687


   In article <CEwtE4.47w@freenet.carleton.ca>,
   >>I can send you a veggie soap recipe, but if you've never made
   >>soap before, it's much easier to start off with a recipe that
   >>uses animal fat.  Animal soaps are much easier to get to 
   >>saponify/harden without curdling.
   >>
   >>Lisa Vawter
   >>
   >Lisa speaks the truth! My first attempt at soapmaking was with a veggie
   >recipe and it was a minor disaster.  My second attempt--using tallow I had
   >rendered from suet--has turned out *much* better. I use REd Devil lye,
   >too--but don't mistake it for Draino!

    Hmmm. Our first attempt was with the kit from SunFeather Soap Company and
    it turned out fine and it has no animal fat. The only modification we
    did was to use blueberry juice with the lye for some added color.

    I'll admit that at first we thought the soap was botched because even
    after about 45 minutes of stirring it produced only a small skim 
    coat. But 48 hours later it was just fine. Biggest thing right now
    is that it seems to take forever to "harden" off the bars.

Thanks to everyone's suggestions on this list, I was able to make my
first attempt at soapmaking this weekend. I followed the veggie recipe
in Mohr's book and used coconut oil rather than shortening.

I followed the direction as carefully as I could: it took my almost an
hour to get the oil and lye to the correct temperatures. Once I mixed
them the thickening reached the ribbon stage at just about 1 hour...which
was right on target according to the book.

I added some paprika for a light salmon color and poured it into the molds.
I think the book said it could take several days before you can remove an
all-veggie bar from its mold and almost three weeks for it to be usable.
Anyway, it all seems to have gone well, so thanks again for the help!

-josh simons


--
simons@think.com
thinking machines corporation
245 first street					tel: 617.234.2844
cambridge, ma  02142-1264				fax: 617.234.4444


From rivoire@abn.unt.edu Sun Oct 24 21:17:36 EDT 1993
Article: 6661 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!mercury.unt.edu!Brenda.controller.unt.edu!rivoire
From: rivoire@abn.unt.edu (Brenda Rivoire)
Subject: Soap Making
Message-ID: <rivoire.49.750713385@abn.unt.edu>
Lines: 23
Sender: usenet@news.unt.edu (UNT USENet Adminstrator)
Organization: Controller's Office, UNT
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 19:29:45 GMT

I have been reading this group for about a month now but this is my first 
post.  

I make Goat's milk soap and have been for a little over a year now.  Several 
of you have mentioned SunFeather Soap company.  Does anyone have their phone 
number or address?  I would like to see what type of supplies they have.

When I first started making soap I used an old recipe and just winged it.  
Since then I have bought several soap books that have been semi-helpful.  
Nothing ever mentions goat's milk soap.  They have had other helpful 
information though.  I would be interested to see what type of soap making 
supplies are offered.  Thanks.

Brenda


                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                      ~   Brenda Rivoire              ~
                      ~   Rivoire@abn.unt.edu         ~
                      ~   Computer Support Specialist ~
                      ~   University of North Texas   ~
                      ~                               ~
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From bgunzy@iastate.edu Sun Oct 24 21:20:45 EDT 1993
Article: 6688 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!bgunzy
From: bgunzy@iastate.edu (Bob Gunzenhauser)
Subject: Re: Harvesting Black walnuts, again
Message-ID: <CF4G2p.AyK@news.iastate.edu>
Sender: news@news.iastate.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
References: <93291.145524J9N@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 01:56:48 GMT
Lines: 39

In article <93291.145524J9N@psuvm.psu.edu> Jeffrey J. Nucciarone <J9N@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I just finished husking several dozen black walnuts I picked up from
>one of my neighbors (she has a black walnut tree, but hates the taste of them).
>
>What is the reccommended way to dry the husked nuts?  I have them sitting
>in a pile on my screened porch (where hopefully the local rodents wont find
>them and make off with them).  Can I force dry them in the oven or should
>I find a nice sunny place inside the house?
>
>Are they ready to be used for eating and cooking as soon as they are
>dried out? (and of course, how will I know when they are dry enough?)
>

A good way to husk walnuts is to dump them in a track of your driveway and
drive over them with your car.  I am serious, we do it!  Then, pick them
up, at least the nuts that aren't cracked, clean them off a bit, and leave
them outside for a couple of weeks.  That'll dry them pretty well.

Don't eat too many walnut meats; it'll make ya sick.

--
Bob Gunzenhauser
AST / Ag Ed
Iowa State University
bgunzy@iastate.edu











-- 
Bob Gunzenhauser
bgunzy@iastate.edu


From dans@bigbird.llnl.gov Sun Oct 24 21:22:18 EDT 1993
Article: 6699 of misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!cs.uoregon.edu!usenet.ee.pdx.edu!fastrac.llnl.gov!sundance.llnl.gov!bigbird.llnl.gov!dans
From: dans@bigbird.llnl.gov (Dan Simkins)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Harvesting Black walnuts, again
Date: 19 Oct 1993 20:19:59 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Lines: 31
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <2a1i5f$cmo@sundance.llnl.gov>
References: <CF4G2p.AyK@news.iastate.edu> <1993Oct19.170222.17720@news.unomaha.edu> <CF5spx.AAt@cbnews.cb.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigbird.llnl.gov

In article <CF5spx.AAt@cbnews.cb.att.com>, majic@cbnews.cb.att.com (michael.jackson) writes:
|> In article <1993Oct19.170222.17720@news.unomaha.edu> rerickso@cwis.unomaha.edu (Ronald D. Erickson) writes:
|> >
|> >Another way which is some work is to soak the walnuts for
|> >a minimum of 24 hours.  Where I live the it is a given
|> >the squirrels will take the walnuts if left outside.  For
|> >some strange reason, most of our walnut trees no longer
|> >bear walnuts.  I am not sure what is causing that problem.
|> >
|> >Ron
|> >AK0N
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> I have noticed a marked decrease in the production of my hickory trees over
|> the years.  I haven't been too concerned - I just take what the trees will
|> give but now that you've mentioned it...
|> 
|> Does anyone know what could be causing this and how could it be reversed to
|> see a larger yield?

I am not a nut grower, but I live in the middle of the Almond Capitol of the world,
or so it is claimed.  Anyway, check with an agriculture expert on black walnuts,
but I do know that almond trees only produce well for about 15 years, some times
up to 25 if one is lucky.  The trees are then uprooted and new trees planted.
A lot of the other kind of walnut are grown around here also, they also have a
limited useful lifespan, but I don't know for sure how long.  I seem to remember
that the walnuts produce well for about 30 years.  Judging by the apparent age
the orchards look when they are ripped out seems to jive with this number.

Dan


From bdisney@cwis.unomaha.edu Wed Oct 27 23:32:57 EDT 1993
Article: 6742 of misc.rural
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Path: samba.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.unomaha.edu!cwis.unomaha.edu!bdisney
From: bdisney@cwis.unomaha.edu (Bridget Anne Disney)
Subject: Russian Farmer Exchange
Message-ID: <1993Oct24.011632.20588@news.unomaha.edu>
Sender: news@news.unomaha.edu (UNO Network News Server)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1993 01:16:32 GMT
Lines: 12

Anyone out there interested in hosting a Russian farmer for a seven
month period (April-May) in 1994?

These are farmers who have been granted a 50 acre plot of land and who
are interested in learning American farming techniques. They all have a
good command of the English language.

If interested, call (402) 449-8600.

Thanks,

Bridget


