Article 6394 of misc.rural:
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From: barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM (Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.consumers.house,rec.food.cooking
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
Date: 8 Sep 1993 19:31:02 GMT
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/tmp/rrn7342.15861
>Living on a rural property, as I see it, I have 2 choices for a new
>stove top/oven in a new kitchen - electric or propane. I've heard lots
>of comments about gas heating, but assume they refer to natural gas,
>not propane. As a point of reference, I've only ever cooked on an 
>electric stove.
>
I also agree that gas (propane or natural) beats electric any day.  I
have used all 3 and will (given the choice) never install electric
again for a variety of reasons (listed below).  In general though
propane and gas are synonomous in functionality.  They provide similar
function but have some different features and properties that may
affect things like installation.

>So, WRT electric vs propane, any comments on :
>
>1.  quality of heat

If by quality you mean efficiency, it is similar to natural gas
(approximately 80% efficient).  Propane provides approximately 92,000
BTU/gal compared to 1000 BTU/cu.ft. for natural gas.

>2.  cost of equipment

All of the equipment is identical to natural gas equipment with
propane burner units added.  This usually is a small modification to
the burner jets to handle the liquid (larger jets).

>3.  cost of operation

Propane costs vary but around here they are about 2 times the cost of
natural gas.  I've included a comparison below that I did several
years ago that breaks this down to more of an equal comparison across
the different heat types.

>4.  how often does a propane tank need to be filled?
Depends on the size and what is hooked up.  I had a 500 (?) gal tank
that ran everything (heater, hot water, stove, and dryer), but heated
primarily with wood. The tank was filled on a schedule 4 times a year,
and was usually only about 1/2 empty each time (150-200 gallons).

>5.  we will have (hopefully) a very tight house with mechanical ventilation.
>    Are there any air quality issues?
Some people say that using propane leaves a distinct smell.  I did
notice it on a few occasions, but generally did not (I may have simply
become accustomed to it though).  In any case, it was never something
that was terribly noticeable (only once or twice in 5 years did any of
our regular house/party guests every notice it) and it is definitely
not offensive (IMHO).

>6.  Safety?
Have it professionally install first off.  I would also select
pilotless appliances.  In addition, if you expect to every see natural
gas coming up the street, use black iron piping instead of the copper
runs you can get.  LP is a heavier than air material, and if leaks
develop they will literally flood a cellar (at least until they get to
the pilot light :-{ ).  Using black iron, I felt at least a bit more
comfortable that an occasional knock wouldn't rupture the line.  In
actuallity, I don't think it would have with copper anyway (we had it
for 2 years), but black iron is also required for natural gas (due to
the pressure), so the upgrade was in preparation for the gas company
coming within reach.

In addition to heating there are some convenience aspects as well.
Electricity does not require the placement of a tank (more difficult
if you get a larger one).  LP will not leave you cold if the
electricity goes out during a cold winter storm.  Electricity is slow
to get things up to temp (cooking) and remains hot for a period
afterwards, gas is instant.

Standard comparison method for multiple heat sources
***************************************************
Source	units		Therm/unit	efficiency
______	_____		________	__________
Wood	cord		210/cord	0.7
Coal	ton		272/ton		0.7
N. Gas	cu. ft.		.01/cf		0.8
LP	gallon		.92/gal		0.8
Oil	gallon		1.385/gal	0.8
Elec	kwhr		.03412/kwhr	1.0

To figure out the relative cost find the costs in your area for these
sources, and plug them into the formula:
	cost/unit / ( Therm/unit * efficiency) = relative cost

sample results (outdated new england prices)
--------------
wood @$145/cord => $0.99/Therm
coal @$140/ton  => $0.74/Therm
gas  @$.70/100cf=> $0.88/Therm
LP   @$.90/gal  => $1.23/Therm
Oil  @$.70/gal  => $0.72/Therm
elec @$.10/kwhr => $2.93/Therm

-- 
                                                       ___
    o       /------------------------------------/    /  / __          
   _-\ _ ~~< barry.andreasen@scout.East.Sun.COM <    /--<  _/ /- /- / /
  (*)<(*)   \------------------------------------\  /___/ (_)/  /  /_/ 
                                                              ______/
***********************************************************************
I said it, perhaps I meant it, but regardless, I speak only for myself!
***********************************************************************


Article 6397 of misc.rural:
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From: wier@merlin.etsu.edu (Bob Wier)
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
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In article <26lbtm$cgt@dr-pepper.East.Sun.COM>, barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM
(Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware) wrote:

>> 
> In addition to heating there are some convenience aspects as well.
> Electricity does not require the placement of a tank (more difficult
> if you get a larger one).  LP will not leave you cold if the
> electricity goes out during a cold winter storm.  Electricity is slow
> to get things up to temp (cooking) and remains hot for a period
> afterwards, gas is instant.
> 

I have one house where the central heating is propane (no street gas 
available, electricity too expensive) and a cabin where propane runs
the cook stove, refrigerator, water heater, lights, barbecue, and 
also a generator which has been converted over from gasoline (no
electricity
or street gas).  

One thing is that if you have propane heating (which works fine in 
both my houses) which relies on a blower (like my central heating)
you'll need a small generator to run the blower motor and thermostat
during an extended power outage.  

======== insert usual disclaimers here ============
  Bob Wier, East Texas State U., Commerce, Texas
  wier@merlin.etsu.edu (watch for address change) 


Article 6399 of misc.rural:
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From: rrieser@sempco.UUCP (Renee Rieser)
Message-ID: <rrieser.1qyr@sempco.UUCP>
Newsgroups: misc.rural,misc.consumers.house,rec.food.cooking
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
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Date: 8 Sep 93 22:25:24 CDT
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rmurray@gandalf.ca (Randy Murray Test Eng) writes:

>Living on a rural property, as I see it, I have 2 choices for a new
>stove top/oven in a new kitchen - electric or propane. I've heard lots
>of comments about gas heating, but assume they refer to natural gas,
>not propane. As a point of reference, I've only ever cooked on an 
>electric stove.
>
We have an OLD (late 40's), large (w/bun warmer), electric range in our
kitchen, with an older, propane range in the basement.  We only use the
latter in summer, when we don't want to increase the load on the air
conditioner or when the electricity goes out for long periods of time 
(rarely, though we get frequent brownouts and breaks of 5 minutes or less).
I prefer the electric range, because I know it so well that I rarely have
to keep adjusting the heat.  My husband prefers the propane range in the
basement - because it's quicker.

>So, WRT electric vs propane, any comments on :
>
>1.  quality of heat

The electric range is capable of getting much hotter than the propane range.

>2.  cost of equipment

??? LP appliances cost only nominally more (<10%) than gas appliances.  In
truly rural areas, they cost the same (about 10% more than in metro :)

>3.  cost of operation

Electric is cheaper and easier to maintain.

>4.  how often does a propane tank need to be filled?\

This will be no help, but 380g will run the range (occasionally) and a 42g
H2O heater (set on high - two people in house) for 20 monthes (Nov - Jul).

>5.  we will have (hopefully) a very tight house with mechanical ventilation.
>    Are there any air quality issues?

I may be wrong, but I believe our propane range has a simple stove-pipe venting
out the hole in the back (below the burners).  How this would work,
I have no idea.

>6.  Safety? 
Pilot-less is good, but even so, easily accessible shut-off valves (intentional
plural) provide peace of mind.  We have a shut-off at each
appliance, where the pipes enter the house, and at the regulator outside.
If the pipe ran upto the first floor, we would undoubtedly have one there,
too.  And all our pipe is galvanized (pre-black-iron probably).  Propane is
fairly safe, but highly volatile.  You can drop a lit match into fuel oil
without worry, but there's a reason the military uses goats to keep the grass
down around propane tanks :)   Leaks are potentially devastating.

Renee Rieser (Blujinx)
from INTERNET: sempco!rrieser@wupost.wustl.edu
         UUCP: wupost.wustl.edu!sempco!rrieser


Article 6398 of misc.rural:
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From: jefftb@sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown)
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 19:06:08 GMT
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      When looking for stoves beware that LPG will have about 10% less BTU
      than natural gas.

      Jeff




Article 6402 of misc.rural:
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From: JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com>
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
Message-ID: <1993Sep9.123044.6267@brtph560.bnr.ca>
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In article <1993Sep8.130403.29246@gandalf.ca> Randy Murray Test Eng,
rmurray@gandalf.ca writes:
>Thanks, in advance, for any insight provided,

On purchasing my GE gas cooktop, we were provided with jets for both LP
and natural gas.  The HVAC company men changed the apertures for us.  The
cooktop also has a valve system to adjust the top end of the gas provided
(i.e., our cooktop did not quite get hot enough).

When you purchase your range or cooktop, ask about the adjustments
necessary to use propane.

Someone mentioned the smell.  Yes, that can happen, it is a warning
system for you.  Under normal use, there is a slight smell that is
dissapated with the range hood.  As far as cost, gas in this area, even
LP, is comparable, if not cheaper than electric.  If you live in an
agricultural region, as your LP dealer if he gives discounts during peak
agricultural seasons.  Have your tank filled then, and have it topped off
as needed.
***************************************************************
************ Laissez le bontemps rouler ****  JB  *************
* no e-mail address, but if you feel inclined: 919/992-2489 * 
***************************************************************


Article 6406 of misc.rural:
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From: amo@cbnews.cb.att.com (arlene.m.osborne)
Subject: Re: Cooking with Propane?
Organization: AT&T
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 17:52:17 GMT
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In article <rrieser.1qyr@sempco.UUCP>, rrieser@sempco.UUCP (Renee Rieser) writes:
> Propane is
> fairly safe, but highly volatile.  You can drop a lit match into fuel oil
> without worry, but there's a reason the military uses goats to keep the grass
> down around propane tanks :)   Leaks are potentially devastating.
> 

You can safely drop a lit match into liquid propane too.  It's the vapor
form that goes KA-BOOM.  I know people who have done this for demo purposes
(the match in liquid .... not match in gaseous form).

"The propane _range_of_flammability_ (or explosive limits) is about 2.4 to
9.5% by volume in air.  The odorant used must positively indicate the 
presence of propane before the concentration of propane in air exceeds
one-fifth the lower limit of flammability.

In order to achieve theoretically perfect combustion, the gas-air mixture
should be 4% by volume.  In other words, one cubic foot of propane vapor
requires 24 cubic feet of air."

  -- Propane Systems by Allen and Tamara Dyer, 1976 p. IV C2-12


