Subject: extracting honey

From: [email-masked] (PEI Environmental Network)
Date: 14 Feb 1995 10:52:48 -0400

I,m looking for suggestions for remonving honey from combs without
benefit of an extractor.  I have three supers of honey and no
extractor (couldn't afford a new one last year and couldn't find
one used).  I've tried scratching the combs open and letting them
drip into a container.  This works alright but is extremely slow. 
Any ideas?

                       Sharon Labchuk
                       [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (David J Trickett)
Date: 14 Feb 1995 21:16:12 GMT

Jordan Schwartz ([email-masked]) wrote:
: It seems to me that once upon a time, people extracted honey without the 
: aid of mechanical devices.  I saw a PBS special a couple months back 
: about honey harvesters in the Himalayas or some such far flung locale 
: where they would seperate the wax from the honey by boiling (heating) 
: it.  Needless to say, this will destroy your comb, but I'm curious if 
: anyone has ever tried this?

Yes, but this will also destroy the flavor of your honey.  Wax melts at 
approximately 150 degrees F., My understanding is that temperatures 
above approximately 120 degrees F. will damage honey flavor (those in 
the know, does this have anything to do with the temperature at which 
enzymes start breaking down?)  Certainly, boiling it will damage it.

As for letting it trickle out, you might end up with an increase in the
moisture in the honey.  Remember, it is a hydroscopic solution (tending to
absorb moisture) and will pull in water from the air surrounding it.  The
bees dehydrate the nectar-honey until it reaches around 17% water and then
they cap it - sealing it off from the air.  If you left honey on a saucer
in your kitchen it would eventually (in a few days perhaps) reach about
25% water, at which point, if there were any yeasts about, it would begin
to ferment.  It's easy to see how mead-making originated, isn't it? 

Are you sure there is nobody around whom you can borrow an extractor from? 
Alternately, I suppose you could put the comb in a nylon bag (available
from a home brewing store) and crush it between two planks (cut to
resemble breadboards - i.e., in paddle shape) and hooked together with a
hinge or even a rope (cut a hole in the wide end of each paddle and knot
it).  The resulting contrivance would look and function a bit like a giant
nutcracker, with the nylon bag as the nut.  The crushed comb would exude
honey through the pores in the bag, and dribble into a bucket or something
you'd have set below it.  You could then take the remaining wax and let
the bees rob the rest of the honey out of it (or even heat it to separate
the wax from the remaining honey, and feed that back to the bees) The comb
would still be destroyed, but the honey would at least be raw. 

Incidentally, this device is used as a "poor person's press" for wine
making.  It works but is messy.  (I know.)

I still think you should look for someone with an extractor - or produce 
cutcomb honey until you're ready to purchase a small one..

Dave

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From: [email-masked] (MURRAY,JEFFREY P)
Date: 14 Feb 1995 12:31:35 -0500

>drip into a container.  This works alright but is extremely slow. 

   You are definitely correct about the time element; not using
an extractor means you'll wait all day for the honey. I have not
had this problem, since I mainly produce comb honey, but I know
I've seen a review of a mostly-plastic extractor that seemed
to be pretty cheap; $80 comes to mind. I don't have my Walter
Kelley or Brushy Mountain catalogs handy, else I'd look in them,
but other folks on the net may have seen this beastie and may
be able to tell you whether it holds up alright. In any event, it
won't be suitable if you are looking to extract a lot of honey;
for that you'll really have to spend the money for a good
stainless-steel motorized unit, but even these can sometimes be
had used. Have you checked out the classified sections of either
ABJ or Bee Culture?

   Jeeef
--
MURRAY,JEFFREY P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!gtri!jeff.murray
Internet: [email-masked]
-- 
MURRAY,JEFFREY P
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!gtri!jeff.murray
Internet: [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Jordan Schwartz)
Date: 14 Feb 1995 17:58:57 GMT

It seems to me that once upon a time, people extracted honey without the 
aid of mechanical devices.  I saw a PBS special a couple months back 
about honey harvesters in the Himalayas or some such far flung locale 
where they would seperate the wax from the honey by boiling (heating) 
it.  Needless to say, this will destroy your comb, but I'm curious if 
anyone has ever tried this?

Jordan L.K. Schwartz       !  University of Washington
[email-masked]      !  Department of Psychology
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jlks/jordan.html

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From: [email-masked] (Pollinator)
Date: 14 Feb 1995 21:51:51 -0500

>I,m looking for suggestions for remonving honey from combs without
benefit of an extractor.

That's pretty tough to do.  Don't you have anyone around that does custom
extracting?  I do it for several other beekeepers in this neighborhood. 
Going rate is around ten cents a pound in this area, and, if I didn't have
a setup, I'd think it to be well worth it.  In fact, I have often used
others' custom setups when I used to carry bees to Pennsylvania & NY.

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From: [email-masked] (Allen Dick 546-2588)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:37:37 GMT

David J Trickett ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Jordan Schwartz ([email-masked]) wrote:
: : It seems to me that once upon a time, people extracted honey without the 
: : aid of mechanical devices.  I saw a PBS special a couple months back 
: : about honey harvesters in the Himalayas or some such far flung locale 
: : where they would seperate the wax from the honey by boiling (heating) 
: : it.  Needless to say, this will destroy your comb, but I'm curious if 
: : anyone has ever tried this?

: Yes, but this will also destroy the flavor of your honey.  Wax melts at 
: approximately 150 degrees F., My understanding is that temperatures 
: above approximately 120 degrees F. will damage honey flavor (those in 
: the know, does this have anything to do with the temperature at which 
: enzymes start breaking down?)  Certainly, boiling it will damage it.

I'm not sure if you are considering this or just curious.  

Exhibitors of honey samples extract without an extractor all the time. 
They incline a warm (90 degrees F) comb with open cells -- either
carefully uncapped, or just beginning to be capped -- at 60 degrees to the
horizontal with the bottom end sitting on a (preferably glass) cookie
sheet, and stroke the comb slowly and forcefully with the smooth side of a
spoon to force the honey out and down the comb unto the perfectly clean
sheet. 

This way no air or pollen or wax gets incorporated and the sample, if run
immediately into a jar that is also perfectly clean and free of odors
(check the cardboard on the underside of the lid for *any* odors) , one
gets about as perfect a sample as possible (after careful skimming).  The
comb can be replaced in the hive and is quickly repaired and the remaining
honey tidied up. 

If you are considering this method of extracting for some reason, an old
washing machine wringer would probably work on a larger scale if the combs
were warm, but the mechanical wringers might be a little fast. 

I wouldn't recommend it for a number of reasons, but go ahead. 

On the chance you are just avoiding the hassle and expense of extracting, 
Ross Rounds are a good solution to that, and provide a much better price 
than extracted honey, as well as making an ever welcome pocket sized gift.

They are available at any dealer, or come to think of it I have some 
nearly new supers for sale.

Allen Dick
-- 
______________________________________________________
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper                        VE6CFK 
Rural Route One   Swalwell   Alberta   Canada  T0M 1Y0 
Email:   [email-masked]    or   [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Martha Frost)
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:44:03 PST

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (PEI Environmental Network) writes:
>From: [email-masked] (PEI Environmental Network)
>Subject: extracting honey
>Date: 14 Feb 1995 10:52:48 -0400
 from Sharon Labchuk
>drip into a container.  This works alright but is extremely slow. 
                      
 Hi Sharon,
we have two hives, and decided last year for first time to extract honey. I 
used a large rubbermaid tub where I placed a frame in vertically and then 
scraped the comb down to the foundation with a stainless steel spatula-like 
the kind used for burger flipping in restaurants. I would *heat* the spatula 
in a pot of boiling water. I dont think it took more than a couple of minutes 
per frame, after I quit trying not to damage the foundation. After two frames, 
I would pour the tub into a colander lined with cheese cloth over another tub. 
After reading a remark about the best temperature for extracting in one 
of the Dadant books,(with or without extractor), I turned up the heat in my 
house to 90F, and the honey flowed like water. (Of course, I chose to extract 
in the short time of cool weather SoCal has!) It wasted a lot of honey, but I 
had more than enough to give for Christmas, and several holidays past that. 
(60+lbs)    Last time, I went to the honey-supplier's and bought a 
plastic chinese-mfgd extractor. It holds two frames, I cut down on the 
extracting time, but it skittered on the floor, so it had to be held down with 
my feet braced on eithr side, on a damp towel. I also bought an electric 
uncapping knife-cut myself real good-but between the sanitary conditions, the 
*cauterization* and the healing power of the raw honey-I healed in a week! I 
found that the temperature is still important for draining-yep, bought a 
stainless steel drainer which was slow in cooler weather but not as messy as 
cheesecloth.It strained into a plastic tub with a gate-beat using a 4-cup 
cheesecloth-lined funnel!It can be done without the tools; it was amusing 
until the third day, when you cant quit but are quite sick of wax caps and 
honey everywhere. 
As soon as you can, get a stainless steel extractor! The American Bee Journal 
has ads in their classifieds where people sell used equiptment.

Regards, Martha
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Pollinator)
Date: 15 Feb 1995 22:28:46 -0500

benefit of an extractor.

    Another thought:  You can take a cappings scratcher (available from
bee supply places), and carefully scratch away the comb until you are
almost to the midrib.  Then strain the result through some pantyhose. 
Works best if it is warm. 

[email-masked]          Dave Green
PO Box 1215, Hemingway, SC  29554

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From: [email-masked] (Dr G A Cooke)
Date: 17 Feb 1995 10:16:29 -0000

In article <[email-masked]>,
	[email-masked] (Jordan Schwartz) writes:
>anyone has ever tried this.

Here in the UK a major crop is oil seed rape, much favoured by the 
bees.  The honey produced from this crop granulates in a few weeks,
or less!  If it granulates in the comb it is very hard to extract.
In the past I have resorted to melting the whole comb and letting the
liquid cool.  The wax can then be lifted off and the honey poured.
The secret is not to let the mixture get too hot otherwise the honey 
will be damaged, but it does mean that you can at least get at the 
stuff.  This method is not really to be recomended as it destroys comb, 
thereby making more work for both bees and beekeeper, and it risks 
damage to the honey.  It also takes a very long time to do properly as
the heating rate is slow, it must NOT be boiled, 65C is high enough.

Graham   [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (David J Trickett)
Date: 17 Feb 1995 14:38:46 GMT

PEI Environmental Network ([email-masked]) wrote:
: I,m looking for suggestions for remonving honey from combs without
: benefit of an extractor.  I have three supers of honey and no
: extractor (couldn't afford a new one last year and couldn't find
: one used).  I've tried scratching the combs open and letting them
: drip into a container.  This works alright but is extremely slow. 
: Any ideas?

:                          
:                        Sharon Labchuk
:                        [email-masked]
:                  

I did a little more reading on the topic(s) and found a couple things to
add.

First, in answer to my own question of why you shouldn't feed honey
that has been heated to bees, the reason seems to have to do with whether
or not the honey gets caramelized as a result of the heating.  According to
Dadant's "First Lessons in Beekeeping," sour (partially fermented) honey
can be fed back to bees after heating, but the temperature should not
exceed 150 degrees and the heating period should be as short as 
possible.  They don't go into specifics, but I'm assuming the heat drives 
off the alcohol.  (For the record, I think I'd stay away from feeding 
fermented honey to bees even if you did heat it.  It might make an 
interesting vinegar though.)  The point is that "heated honey," per se, 
apparently can be fed back to bees under some circumstances at least.

"The Hive and the Honey Bee" warns that caramelization can occur if honey
is overheated (for example, exceeding 150 degrees or without a water
jacket/double boiler setup).  This may be the basis for general injunctions
against feeding heated honey.  I.e., caramelization changes the chemical
composition of the constituent sugars to substances the bees can't
process.  Unfortunately, I did not find any overt references to the 
feeding of heated honey to bees (pro or con) in this text. 

As for the discussion regarding gentle/flash heating/warming of honey for
extraction purposes, VOCs (volatile organic compounds - not the same one's
that are smog precursors though) are a significant contributor to the
flavor/aroma of honey and these, by definition, have a low heat of
vaporization (i.e., it doesn't take much in the way of heat to drive them
off).  So, while I certainly agree you can heat heat honey to facilitate
extraction, and that in the absence of an extractor, melting the comb may
be the only viable means of processing LARGE amounts, I maintain that
doing so reduces the quality in terms of flavor.  If you are a hobbyist, 
this is probably the the quality you are trying to maximize.

In addition, enzymes are also present in honey, do break down with
moderate heat, and are essential for the "ripening" process.  Some of
these (e.g., sucrase) continue operating after capping, others (e.g.,
glucose oxidase) don't).  As a matter of fact, the concentration in honey
of a third (diastase) is sometimes used to estimate exposure to
heating (this has some problems due to concurrent breakdown of the enyzme
with aging, and because the level in fresh honey is not a constant).  I 
haven't seen anything in the literature indicating that enyzyme content 
contributes to the flavor of honey, however (besides altering sugar ratios).

In the context of the original question - extracting a few dozen frames -
if you are willing to destroy the comb in the process of extracting, you
might as well squeeze the honey out and at least maximize your harvest. 
If you want to preserve the comb, the advice given by other writers about
scraping ) particularly at or about hive temperatures) seems sound -
though awfully slow.  But I still caution you about water absorption - the
bees do cap the cells for a reason, afterall.  (In a dry climate, this may
not be a problem - here in PA, during the humid summer months, it'd be
asking for trouble.)

- Dave

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From: [email-masked] ()
Date: 17 Feb 1995 13:03:41 GMT

> >aid of mechanical devices.  I saw a PBS special a couple months back 
...
> liquid cool.  The wax can then be lifted off and the honey poured.

If the comb is to be destroyed (I too have been caught out with oil seed rape honey crystallizing) then why not just cut out the comb and honey in chunks... put in the fridge in a box to keep cool and firm... delicious on its own (beats fudge toffee) or on bread. The down side is the extra work for the bees drawing new comb on the foundation to replace the one just destroyed.

My neighbours keep asking if I've got any more 'ruined frames' :-)

Regards,
	Ian McD

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From: [email-masked] (Adam Finkelstein)
Date: 16 Feb 1995 03:51:37 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>Works best if it is warm. 

 In a pinch you can use a fork.
-- 
______________________________________
Adam Finkelstein 
[email-masked]

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From: bill fernihough <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Feb 1995 01:52:12 GMT

> drip into a container.  This works alright but is extremely slow. 
This is the time when being a member of a beekeeper's club pays off.  If 
your club has an extractor, your are in luck

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From: [email-masked] (Richard Spear)
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 20:14:10 PST

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>From: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: extracting honey
>Date: 18 Feb 1995 06:38:24 GMT

>There is a honey extractor which will spin 2 frames, one on each side. It is sturdy plastic and metal 
>and it is made in China and it costs $100.00. I ordered mine out of the Dadant catalogue. As far as I 
>know, centrifugal force is the only way to extract with any efficiency, unless you go for the honey in 
>the combs, which is what I am thinking of doing next. I have been keeping bees for one year here 
>in California.

I also bought one of these ... I recommend *against* it. The assembly is much 
too light and will slide about the floor as you try to spin the frames. I'm 
also not too happy with plastic - cleaning, etc. is a bit suspect. I will be 
buying a stainless steel unit this spring.

BTW, I'm also in southern CA ... a *great* place to keep bees! That is, if you 
can deal with varroa and the constant worry of AHB.

Regards, Richard
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 20 Feb 1995 07:22:01 GMT

Yes, it might be time for a stainless steel extractor this year, I don't know. Last year was my first year, 
and I thought that it would be good this "winter" to leave a bunch of full frames in my two colonies. 
Those bees worked all winter, ran out of room and swarmed! Mike the Beekeeper got some new 
ones going for me, and now I bought a radial arm saw and I am going to follow the Backwoods 
Home article specs on building my own hives and frames. Beekeeping is really something!

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 18 Feb 1995 06:38:24 GMT