Subject: Re: apicultural management and troll response(was Re: Cat Quandary)

From: [email-masked] (Jeff Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 01:22:35 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
 on 17 Jan 1995 09:48:17 -0500,
 Corey Lee Bishop <[email-masked]> writes:
>Jeff Smith ([email-masked]) wrote:

>: Just how is my statement wrong?  (Realize that at no point have I
>: suggested that honey bee pollination is not useful OR widely used
>: in fruit and vegetable production.)  Other bees and other insects
>: *do* pollinate fruit crops, the question is:  how much is done by
>: honey bees?  Sue claims they are "necessary".  I suggest that fruit
>: was growing (and being "produced") in America before the honey bee
>: arrived.

>Exactly what fruits are you referring to?  Bear in mind that most of
>our fruits and vegetables are from imported species that did not
>exist on this continent before Europeans came.

Well, remember that others were living off the land (hunting, gathering,
and farming) before Europeans arrived.  Among those items the American
Indians farmed were peas, beans, corn, potatoes, squashes and the like.
There were also plums and cherries growing here prior to the honey bee's
arrival, as well as a plethora of berries (currents, cranberries,
strawberries, raspberries, etc), various nuts (chestnuts, hazelnuts,
hickory nuts), seed plants (sunflower), various grains, various melons,
a variety of grapes, tomatoes, and so on.

-Jeff Smith
 [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Allen Dick 546-2588)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 21:30:00 GMT

: >: *do* pollinate fruit crops, the question is:  how much is done by
: >: honey bees?  Sue claims they are "necessary".  I suggest that fruit
: >: was growing (and being "produced") in America before the honey bee
: >: arrived.

: and farming) before Europeans arrived.  Among those items the American
: Indians farmed were peas, beans, corn, potatoes, squashes and the like.
: There were also plums and cherries growing here prior to the honey bee's
: arrival, as well as a plethora of berries (currents, cranberries,
: strawberries, raspberries, etc), various nuts (chestnuts, hazelnuts,
: hickory nuts), seed plants (sunflower), various grains, various melons,
: a variety of grapes, tomatoes, and so on.

I think that it is possible to get some yield on most crops without 
honeybees most places.

However, honeybees dramatically increase the yield at very little cost and 
keep the costs of production low.  They can be managed and thus can 
ensure that crops are as large as possible.  I doubt that orchard owners, 
seed producers and other farmers would willingly pay up to $100 per hive 
for an input that was in any doubt.

Additionally, 'civilization' has removed quite a bit of the nesting sites
and alternate forage for native pollinators.  Monoculture and irrigation
results in long periods without alternate forage in many locations.  It
also periodically requires the use of sprays which repeatedly decimate the 
pollinators (including honeybees sometimes). 

I think that in most cases the fruits and berries that were grown before 
the advent of the honeybee were grown in patches surrounded by wilderness 
and other patches with other crops.

Many of our present methods of growing cheap food would be risky, or 
impossible without migratory beekeeping.  It is partly for this reason 
that the movemnet of bees has been permitted, in spite of the inevitable, 
predictable, and costly spread of both parasitic mites that results.

Thus the bees and their keepers have taken a big hit to keep America fed. 
-- 
W. Allen Dick, Beekeeper                      VE6CFK
Rural Route One, Swalwell,  Alberta  Canada  T0M 1Y0
Phone/Fax: 403 546 2588      Email: [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (David J Trickett)
Date: 20 Jan 1995 03:31:42 GMT

Corey Lee Bishop ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Since you are against exploitation of bees, do you restrict your diets
: to foods that are not mainly fertilized by honey bees?

: Sue

You're joking, right?  This thread has been somewhat amusing -
particularly the comments (if rather gruesome) by Andy - but it's 
beginning to become silly.  If you're really this worried about this you
should seriously consider finding a local beekeeper and asking if you
might come and visit his/her apiary.  If there's one thing I've learned
about beekeeping, it's not to be too idealistic about "nature."   Have 
you ever heard about "the massacre of the drones?"  Do you know what 
happens to queens when they begin to fail at egg production?

As for exploitation fo bees, what beekeepers are doing is exploiting the 
ability of bees to produce MORE honey than they can actually consume in a 
season (i.e., throught the winter and into the spring when nectar becomes 
available again).  The "natural" course of things is for the bees, once 
they have more or less filled up the available space in the hive, to use 
their extra energies to produce a swarm(s) - which departs to start a new 
colony.  Thus is the race propagated.  What beekeepers do is to remove 
the "extra" honey and replace it with more "space."  The intention is for 
the bees to fill that empty space with more honey - rather than produce a 
swarm and depart for parts unknown.

Callingthis exploitation is about as ludicrous as claiming that women in
the workplace are exploited because their energies are diverted 
>from  making and raising babies.

Is this exploitation?  How do you define exploitation in the first 
place?  I looked it up in my unabridged Webster's.  The key point seems 
to hinge upon "unjust advantage."  (As for my bees, nobody is forcing 
them to stay.  They can leave anytime they wish if they think things are 
unfair.)  Most beekeepers put a hell of a lot of time and effort into 
their bees.  There is a very substantial literature treating THIS aspect 
of beekeeping.  I suggest you look up and read:

"The Queen Must Die - and Other Affairs of Bees and Men"
by William Longgood

or

"A Book of Bees"
by Sue Hubbell

Dave Trickett
Phd Program in Energy and the Enviroment
UPenn

---

From: [email-masked] (Chuck Narad)
Date: 20 Jan 1995 18:38:25 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] writes:
> beginning to become silly. 

I think sue is using rectio ad absurdum here; since vegans
avoid honey since "it was obtained through the exploitation
of bees", she's asking if the same people are willing to
enjoy the, um, fruits of bees' labor one step removed.

If you buy in to the idea that it is impossible to live
without some killing and/or exploitation of other critters
(in other words, if you are a realist) then you decide if
there is some line you don't want to cross.  For some there
is no line.  For some the line is eating of animals.  For
some the line is eating of animal products (e.g. dairy, honey).
Sue is asking someone who asserts that they are against
the 'exploitation' of bees, if they follow it to the logical
conclusion...

cheers,
chuck/

-----------------------------------------------------------
| Chuck Narad -- diver/adventurer/engineer                |
|                                                         |
|   "The universe is full of magical things, patiently    |
|   waiting for our wits to grow sharper."                |
|                                                         |
|                   -- Eden Phillpotts                    |
|                                                         |
-----------------------------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Corey Lee Bishop)
Date: 22 Jan 1995 10:39:05 -0500

David J Trickett ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Corey Lee Bishop ([email-masked]) wrote:

: : Since you are against exploitation of bees, do you restrict your diets
: : to foods that are not mainly fertilized by honey bees?

: : Sue

: You're joking, right?  This thread has been somewhat amusing -
: particularly the comments (if rather gruesome) by Andy - but it's 
: beginning to become silly.  If you're really this worried about this you
: should seriously consider finding a local beekeeper and asking if you
: might come and visit his/her apiary.  If there's one thing I've learned
: about beekeeping, it's not to be too idealistic about "nature."   Have 
: you ever heard about "the massacre of the drones?"  Do you know what 
: happens to queens when they begin to fail at egg production?

You are misunderstanding my posting.  What started this whole thread was
the statement by several of the Animal Rights supporters on the Talk.
Politics.Animals group that the honeybee is 'exploited' by humans and
they were saying that they did not use honey as a result.  I was inquiring
as to their stand on eating fruit/vegetables that are produced as a
result of honeybee fertilization.

BTW, I have read The Queen Must Die.

And my father keeps bees (as a hobby).

Sue

: As for exploitation fo bees, what beekeepers are doing is exploiting the 
: ability of bees to produce MORE honey than they can actually consume in a 
: season (i.e., throught the winter and into the spring when nectar becomes 
: available again).  The "natural" course of things is for the bees, once 
: they have more or less filled up the available space in the hive, to use 
: their extra energies to produce a swarm(s) - which departs to start a new 
: colony.  Thus is the race propagated.  What beekeepers do is to remove 
: the "extra" honey and replace it with more "space."  The intention is for 
: the bees to fill that empty space with more honey - rather than produce a 
: swarm and depart for parts unknown.

: Callingthis exploitation is about as ludicrous as claiming that women in
: the workplace are exploited because their energies are diverted 
: from making and raising babies.

: Is this exploitation?  How do you define exploitation in the first 
: place?  I looked it up in my unabridged Webster's.  The key point seems 
: to hinge upon "unjust advantage."  (As for my bees, nobody is forcing 
: them to stay.  They can leave anytime they wish if they think things are 
: unfair.)  Most beekeepers put a hell of a lot of time and effort into 
: their bees.  There is a very substantial literature treating THIS aspect 
: of beekeeping.  I suggest you look up and read:

: "The Queen Must Die - and Other Affairs of Bees and Men"
: by William Longgood

: or

: "A Book of Bees"
: by Sue Hubbell

: Dave Trickett
: Phd Program in Energy and the Enviroment
: UPenn