Subject: Re: bottle gourd and sweet potato diffusion

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 17:55:14 GMT

Here, for Thomas, and others, is an excerpt from an old post (slightly
edited) that deals with some of these matters and contains useful
references (this discussion was with Peter van Rossum):

Best wishes,

Yuri.

Subject:      [9]Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From:         [10][email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1996/09/26
Newsgroups:   sci.archaeology

	...

Here we go, Peter -- bits and pieces from my webpage, and some other
stuff:

Needham clearly believes that the human-assisted transmission for sweet
potato is the mainstream view. I trust Needham.

>From  Joseph Needham, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES:

"...in the case of the sweet potato (_Ipomoea batatas_) it is ... fairly
sure that there was a connection between S. America and Polynesia, though
whether the Peruvians took it, or the Polynesians came and fetched it,
remains quite unknown. But the transfer is accepted on all hands." (p. 61)

A wealth of material on this and other issues can be found in Riley, C.
L., et al, eds, MAN ACROSS THE SEA; PROBLEMS OF PRE-COLUMBIAN CONTACTS,
Univ. of Texas Press, Austin, 1971, p. 343. (Cited by Needham.)

This book contains a lot of info about the potato. 

**********

The following comes from SEED TO CIVILIZATION, by Charles Heiser (New
edition, 1990, Harvard U. P.). He is quite a famous scholar of the
origins of agriculture.

It should be noted that Heiser is no diffusionist. In fact he's often a
significant _opponent_ of diffusionists. Yet he accepts human-assisted
diffusion for the sweet potato! Significant. For other plants in question
he's careful to hedge his bets and to qualify his language.

      At the time of the European discovery of the New World,
      the sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) was widely cultivated
      in tropical America and was also being grown on some of
      the Pacific islands. ... The presence of the plant on
      either side of the Pacific at such an early date poses
      several interesting questions -- among them, how and when
      did it get across the ocean? ... While either the
      introduction of seeds by some natural means or an
      independent domestication remain a possibility, it
      seems _far more likely_ that people were responsible for
      the introduction of the sweet potato from the Americas
      to the Pacific region. There are two ways in which this
      might have occurred. ... (p. 139)

I hope this answers your objections satisfactorily. He has a lot more on
this, so refer to the book if you're interested.

*********

More info about sweet potato can also be found in the following important
volume, ORIGINS OF AGRICULTURE, C. A. Reed, ed., Mouton (Proceedings of
the IX International Congress of Anthropological and Ethnological
Sciences). This thick volume includes much more important material about
diffusion, including an article by George C. Carter, A HYPOTHESIS
SUGGESTING A SINGLE ORIGIN FOR AGRICULTURE (where he also deals with 
potato). 

	...

--
           **    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto   **
  -- a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
 
Most of the evils of life arise from man's being 
unable to sit still in a room    ||    B. Pascal

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From: "Paul E. Pettennude" <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Nov 1996 02:04:12 GMT

Yuri,

Needham is saying what we've been trying to say.  Look at his words "fairly
certain".  My old granddaddy would have called this conjecture.  He also
goes on to say he isn't sure which way the sweet potato went. 

"Fairly certain" is a great way to begin writing a theory.  In archaeology
a theory is just that-- a theory.  Until you come up with the "smoking
potato", you can't say for sure that it actually happened as theorized.

Someday when the genetics folks get some funding and do DNA analysis on the
evolution of the sweet potato, we'll know for sure or maybe we'll still be
fairly certain and the debate will endure.

Paul Pettennude  

Yuri Kuchinsky <[email-masked]> wrote in article <[email-masked]>...

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From: Jeff Wagner <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:23:23 -0600

Hey y'all,
This thread has been fascinating at times and ridiculous at times.  I
was just wondering though if you might want to start a
"Gourd and Sweetpotato Diffusion News Group"?  How about it?
Thanks!
Jeff

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey J Wagner; P.O. Box 433, Niwot, CO 80544; 
phone: (303)652-3674; fax: (303) 652-3676; e-mail: [email-masked]
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From: "John W. Hoopes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:41:15 -0600

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> 
> This thick volume includes much more important material about

Yuri,

     Before cite George "Older Than You Think" Carter as an authority,
you might want to look at some of the other things he has written.  He
inspires about as much confidence as do Jeffrey "Psychic Archaeology"
Goodman or Barry Fell...

John