Subject: Sophora secundifolia?/S. secundiflora/red-seeded legumes

From: [email-masked] (Monique Reed)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:30:38 UNDEFINED

Friends,

If you are indeed dealing with Sophora secundiflora (small tree with 
leathery compound leaves, grape-smelling purple flowers, woody pods and bright 
red seeds with NO black on them)  I strongly encourage you to

1) not fool around with ingesting them!  Check the AMA handbook of poisonous 
and injurious plants--it's in there!  If you eat them and the seed coat is 
even remotely perforated, you are going to be very sick.   At the least, you 
will get a headache and maybe throw up.  Or, you could end up on respiratory 
support and have some nice convulsions.  You might achieve some hallucinations 
along the way, but are the risks worth it?

2) please, oh, please!  If you simply must have the seeds around as lucky 
pieces (or whatever) KEEP THEM AWAY FROM CHILDREN!!  They look just like red 
jellybeans!!!  The temptation for little ones is immense.

Now, regarding red-and black sees of other legumes.  DO exercise caution in 
dealing with them and having them around the house!  While some may be 
harmless, one very nasty plant has such seeds.  Abrus precatorius is one of 
the deadliest plants known--one chewed seed can be fatal.  The little beans 
are less than half an inch long, bright red with a black spot around the 
hilum (where the seed was attached in the legume.) The seeds used to enter 
this country on costume jewelry from Mexico.  In recent years, they've cracked 
down on the import, but they still do show up--and are often kept as good luck 
charms.  Again, to a child they look like candy.

Explore the wonders of the plant world--for science, for magic, for 
recreation, or whatever, but hey---let's be careful out there!

Monique Reed
Herbarium Botanist
Biology Department
Texas A&M University
College Station, TX  77843

---

From: [email-masked] (Doug Scofield)
Date: 20 May 1996 15:11:57 GMT

|> Now, regarding red-and black sees of other legumes.  DO exercise caution in 
|> dealing with them and having them around the house!  While some may be 
|> harmless, one very nasty plant has such seeds.  Abrus precatorius is one of 
|> the deadliest plants known--one chewed seed can be fatal.  The little beans 
|> are less than half an inch long, bright red with a black spot around the 
|> hilum (where the seed was attached in the legume.) The seeds used to enter 
|> this country on costume jewelry from Mexico.  In recent years, they've cracked 
|> down on the import, but they still do show up--and are often kept as good luck 
|> charms.  Again, to a child they look like candy.

... not to mention that this is a common and aggressive exotic vine
here in south florida, the pods open up and the seeds just hang there
visible for the plucking.  the look of the seeds give it the common
name "crab's eye".  fortunately it seems its poisonous nature is widely
known, and the sun-loving vine *generally* stays high enough to be out
of reach of small children.

doog
--
doug scofield                                       [email-masked]
boca raton, florida                           also [email-masked]
           every day we starve while we eat white bread and 
           beer instead of a handshake or hug -- jewel

---

From: [email-masked] (Lee Rudolph)
Date: 19 May 1996 20:39:43 -0400

catherine yronwode <[email-masked]> asked the question
in the Subject: header in alt.folklore.herbs and alt.lucky.w;
her original post follows my comments.  I am extending the
Newsgroups: to include sci.bio.botany at her request.

--begin my inexpert comments---

S. secundiflora is a name too close to S. secundifolia for me not
to wonder if they might be the same.  S. secundiflora, according
to my 1909 Webster's New International Dictionary, is the "coral 
bean of Texas."  Under "coral bean", we find that it is "used by 
the Indians in preparing an intoxicating drink" and is also called 
"frijolito".  (By the second edition, 1959, Texas, the Indians,
and frijolito have disappeared, and coral bean [in this sense,
rather than--what seems more common in gardening and landscaping
books--the West Indian tree Erythrina corallodendron] is now
said to be "a small tree...of the southwestern United States 
and Mexico; also, its highly narcotic red seeds.") 

A web search for "frijolito" appears only to turn up black-bean
references (mostly restaurant names).  A web search for "coral
bean" turns up many references to E. corallodendron; however, at 
  
    http://www.arkoz.com.au/marlene/ifec/ifecda1.htm 

(an Australian site, presumably) one finds an ad for 

    DESERT ALCHEMY FLORAL ESSENCES
    Below you will find a comprehensive list of Desert Alchemy remedies
    which are produced in the USA and a brief description regarding the
    use of each one.

with the "brief" and nearly useless "description" 

    Coral Bean helps to overcome a drug-like dulling of the
    survival instinct. Stimulates focus and will in facing or
    recovering from dangerous situations.

(naturally, no other information, like scientific name
or provenance besides "the USA").  Might be a lead, though.

Lee Rudolph

--begin cat yronwode's post---

>In Terrence McKenna's book on shamanic intoxicants, i found a brief 
>mention of a plant called Sophora secundifolia, which was described as 
>"a red and black seed" that was a powerful but dangerous psychedelic -- 
>but no continent or even bioregion was given for its use, nor was the 
>culture in which shamans use this plant mentioned.  
>
>My interest is in the magical (not medical) use of plant matter -- but 
>often plant magic seems to derive from earlier use of the plant as an 
>intoxicant (e.g. the "lucky" Amanita muscaria mushroom of Eastern Europe 
>which was formerly a shamanic intoxicant) -- and although the hints 
>McKkenna gave are slim, i wonder if anyone on this well-eductaed 
>newsgroup knows whether Sophora secundifolia is the same as the Huayruru 
>seed, a red-and-black legume seed found in good luck amulets throughout 
>Central and South America. If the name Huayruru is not known to you, 
>perhaps you can identify it from a picture -- so for pictures of the 
>Huayruru seed as used in amulets, go to the following Lucky W Amulet 
>Archive pages: 
>
>Mexican Package Amulets 
>http://www.sonic.net/yronwode/MexProtectionPacket.html 
>(the seed can clearly be seen on the package amulet labelled "Type Two" 
>-- the very last illustration on the page) 
>
>The Mexican Snow Globe Pyramid of Luck 
>http://www.sonic.net/yronwode/SnowGlobePyramid.html
>(the seeds are scattered in the bottom of the lucite pyramid)
>
>In addition, these seeds appear in Amazonian charm vials (not pictured 
>yet on my web site) from Bolivia and Peru. 
>
>If the Huyaruru seed is NOT Sophora secundifolia, but you recognize what 
>it is from the illustrations, please post here to let me know. If you 
>know of a better group where this query should be posted (a group on 
>drugs, perhaps?) please forward it or tell me where and i will do so 
>myself.

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Batson)
Date: 21 May 1996 21:06:59 GMT

Lee Rudolph ([email-masked]) wrote:
: catherine yronwode <[email-masked]> asked the question
: in the Subject: header in alt.folklore.herbs and alt.lucky.w;
: her original post follows my comments.  I am extending the
: Newsgroups: to include sci.bio.botany at her request.

: --begin my inexpert comments---

: S. secundiflora is a name too close to S. secundifolia for me not
: to wonder if they might be the same.  S. secundiflora, according
: to my 1909 Webster's New International Dictionary, is the "coral 
: bean of Texas."  Under "coral bean", we find that it is "used by 
: the Indians in preparing an intoxicating drink" and is also called 
: "frijolito".  (By the second edition, 1959, Texas, the Indians,
: and frijolito have disappeared, and coral bean [in this sense,
: rather than--what seems more common in gardening and landscaping
: books--the West Indian tree Erythrina corallodendron] is now
: said to be "a small tree...of the southwestern United States 
: and Mexico; also, its highly narcotic red seeds.") 

There's a listing for S. secundiflora in the 1992, 1994 publication 
_Index of Garden Plants_ by Mark Griffiths (ISBN 0-88192-246-3) 
describing this plant as an 8-11 meter evergreen tree. The common names 
are Mescal Bean, Frijollito, and Texas Mountain Laurel.

There's no mention of a S. secundifolia.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Batson                              L 39 12 14 N  94 33 16 W
[email-masked]                           Kansas City
TCS - Mystic Fire Priest                USDA zone 5b
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Under the most controlled conditions, the experimental apparatus will
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