Subject: Re: Licorice Cured My Chronic Fatigue Syndrome in Two Hours!!!!

From: [email-masked] (Lisa L Guffy)
Date: 22 May 1996 02:55:21 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked](David Williams) writes:
*snip*
>Syndrome and Liquorice."  In this letter, Dr. Riccardo Baschetti of
>Italy reported his 
>total recovery for CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome) within 2 hours of
>ingesting pure, pulverized, solid extract of licorice dissolved in 500
>ml of whole milk.
*snip*

Gee....

No wonder I'm sick.  I can't stand either licorice or
milk.

*grin*

lisa

---

From: [email-masked] (JenandMike)
Date: 22 May 1996 01:36:46 -0400

>In article <[email-masked]>
>[email-masked](David Williams) writes:
*snip*
*snip*

High doses of Radix Liquiritae might very well have an effect on fatique
syndromes. According to Wagner glycyrhizine (a saponine) has an indirect
corticosteroide effect by inhibiting inactivation of physiological
cortisones by the liver. If a fatique syndrome is connected to low levels
of hydrocortisone, Radix L. could indeed help. Radix L. intoxication are
similar to corticosteroide intoxication.

sincerely,
Michael Lindenmaier

---

From: [email-masked] (Monique Reed)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:36:40 UNDEFINED

I'll be interested to see if this CFS-licorice issue actually yields 
conclusive results.

One caveat--

Licorice has the reputation of not being good for folks with high blood 
pressure. (A friend of mine with borderline high blood pressure was told by a 
doctor to even avoid licorice *candy*!)

Hey, let's be careful out there!

Monique Reed
Texas A&M

---

From: [email-masked] (Steven B. Harris)
Date: 22 May 1996 06:06:28 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (JenandMike)
>similar to corticosteroide intoxication.

   Interesting.  Not only is there the low cortisol connection with CF,
but also the hypotension connection, which resembles full blown
Addison's disease.  Here the salt-retaining capacity of licorice
extracts might come in handy-- if you remember to eat enough potassium,
that is.  It would be a tricky balance, a bit like taking lasix.  I'd
hate to do it except under the care of a good internist backed by a
good lab.

                                        Steve Harris, M.D.

---

From: Camilla Cracchiolo <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 May 1996 00:31:01 -0700

Steven B. Harris <[email-masked]> wrote:

:    Interesting.  Not only is there the low cortisol connection with CF,
: but also the hypotension connection, which resembles full blown
: Addison's disease.  Here the salt-retaining capacity of licorice
: extracts might come in handy-- if you remember to eat enough potassium,
: that is.  It would be a tricky balance, a bit like taking lasix.  I'd
: hate to do it except under the care of a good internist backed by a
: good lab.

:                                         Steve Harris, M.D.

No lie.  I'm ranting about this over on the CFS list.  I think licorice 
might have a number of advantages in CFS *if* the people doing it
are being pretty closely monitored.  Unfortunately, there are quite a few 
folks running off to the health food store and taking several grams a day 
of this stuff.  

I'm just waiting for the first fatality.  I've already heard from one  
person who may have had an MAOI reaction (did you know that licorice is 
an MAOI?)  And at least two more who developed swelling after only a 
couple of days on the stuff.  I've also found out that grapefruit and 
birth control pills can potentiate its effects on sodium and potassium.  
This is a classic case of people believing that herb = non-toxic.

I've gotten several rather hostile challenges when I reported that there 
are deaths on record from licorice.  How much do you want to bet that if 
I had reported deaths from some drug, no one would have raised an 
eyebrow, except perhaps to comment on the unscrupulousness of drug 
companies and doctors.  But mention that an herb might kill someone and 
people get downright mad.

I'm working on a FAQ: I've looked at about 100 abstracts.  Very 
interesting herb and unlike most herbs, very well studied.  Japanese 
researchers are trying it out in people with chronic viral hepatitis.  
May have some value because 1) it kills hep B and hep C in test tube 2) 
stimulates natural killer cell activity and 3) strongly inhibits 
peroxidizing enzymes in the liver.  

Japanese researchers have also isolated an anti-malarial substance from 
it and it's undergoing human trials now.

It's going to be a while before we know how well this stuff translates 
out in humans, but I'm keeping a close eye.

--
   "The trick is to keep an open mind, without it being so open
                      that your brain falls out."

           Camilla Cracchiolo, RN   [email-masked]

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---

From: [email-masked] (RBOGADO)
Date: 22 May 1996 08:55:02 -0400

It is distressing that, since these posts have apparently been banned from
the CFS list, they now are moving to this list, especially in light of
their seemingly commercial flavor (no pun intended).

---

From: [email-masked] (George M. Carter)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:51:45 GMT

>folks running off to the health food store and taking several grams a day 

I agree that the stuff should be monitored. Esp. in people with high
blood pressure. I use it and take a 100 mg cap of potassium citrate a
day. The dose is a guess. If I had healthcare, I'd get my bloodwork
done to check potassium levels, find out what my hep C viral load is
and do GL properly. As it is, I'm left to guess.

Certainly, there need to be more clinical studies both for hepatitis
and HIV. I've been asking the National Institutes of Health to conduct
such studies. They are not interested since they seem to be nothing
but a pimp for the pharmaceutical industry, despite the Japanese and
other studies that suggest GL might be an important contributor.

		George M. Carter

---

From: [email-masked](David Williams)
Date: 22 May 1996 17:34:30 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Monique
>I'll be interested to see if this CFS-licorice issue actually yields 

I have had CFS since 1977, and was officially diagnosed  in 1992 by
Professor Nancy Kilmas (University of Miami).  My medical file is 4
inches thick with the results of various test and blood work, which
included many irractic reading.  Dr. Klimas is re-doing all these test
so soon there should be something to report.

Professor Marilyn Cox, also with University of Miami, did an original
Tilt table test on me in 1995 and I almost passed out 6 minutes into
the test (BP 66/32).  This test was repeated 3 weeks ago and my BP
never fell below 100/50 and I completed the test with flying colors. 
But I was not only taking licorice, I was taking other meds which
invalidated the result.  I have been off everything but licorice fro 3
weeks now and the test will be repeated tomorrow morning. 

And, if I have anything to say about it, many other people with CFS
will try licorice and soon you will have your results.  I don't need
any studies, I know damn well licorice works wonders in people with
CFS.

>Licorice has the reputation of not being good for folks with high
>blood  pressure.
>Monique Reed
>Texas A&M

Yes, your right!  People with hypertension BEWARE!!!!!!! DON'T TAKE ANY
LICORICE IT MIGHT KILL YOU!!!!!  DANGER WARNING DANGER BEWARE

But people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome don't need to worry because
they have low blood pressure!  People how have hypertension don't have
CFS.

From US Coast guard Library Thu May 23 13:49:23 EDT 1996
Article: 2208 of sci.bio.botany
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From: "SIO Library:  Infopath" <US Coast guard Library>
Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany
Subject: Re: Plants for children
Date: 20 May 1996 17:38:43 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
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sunflowers are always a popular item. there are many varieties from 
miniature to giant and a variety of colors. they are also fast . another 
fascinating aspect is their sun orientation as the sun passes over.{or 
is it that the earth is moving?)

From US Coast guard Library Thu May 23 13:49:24 EDT 1996
Article: 2209 of sci.bio.botany
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From: "SIO Library:  Infopath" <US Coast guard Library>
Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany
Subject: Re: Plants for children
Date: 20 May 1996 17:39:09 GMT
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sunflowers are always a popular item. there are many varieties from 
miniature to giant and a variety of colors. they are also fast . another 
fascinating aspect is their sun orientation as the sun passes over.{or 
is it that the earth is moving?)

From US Coast guard Library Thu May 23 13:49:24 EDT 1996
Article: 2210 of sci.bio.botany
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From: "SIO Library:  Infopath" <US Coast guard Library>
Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany
Subject: Re: Plants for children
Date: 20 May 1996 17:40:21 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
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sunflowers are always a popular item. there are many varieties from 
miniature to giant and a variety of colors. they are also fast . another 
fascinating aspect is their sun orientation as the sun passes over.{or 
is it that the earth is moving?) don miller igpp/sio

---

From: [email-masked] (PIX INTL)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:01:19 GMT

I heard on the news a few months ago that doctors were trying to get
licorice off the market because quite a few people have gotten sever
liver damage and heart problems from ingesting it frequently.

Growing up I used to love Callard & Browers licroice imported  from
England..Hardly stuff an 8 year old kid in the midwest  would crave
but I sure felt great all the time growing up!

Too bad it can really hurt  ya!

[[o]]  PIX INTERNATIONAL:Photography for the entertainment
  |    industry,editorial,corporate,& P.R.Since 1976.
 / \   Publishers of Celebrity & Music Photo Mag's 
       on Floppy Disks.Alternate email:[email-masked] 
       http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/pixintl/

---

From: [email-masked](David Williams)
Date: 23 May 1996 01:39:20 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (PIX
>liver damage and heart problems from ingesting it frequently.

This is pure bullshit!!!!!!  I challenge you to support this statement
or shut up!

David Williams

---

From: Camilla Cracchiolo <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 May 1996 22:06:02 -0700

RBOGADO <[email-masked]> wrote:
: It is distressing that, since these posts have apparently been banned from
: the CFS list, they now are moving to this list, especially in light of
: their seemingly commercial flavor (no pun intended).

Out of curiosity, where are you reading this thread from?  My 
understanding is that one person who refused to stay within the rules 
about the length of a post (under 100 lines) lost posting privileges.  
But the licorice discussion is alive and well on the CFS list.

---

From: Camilla Cracchiolo <[email-masked]>
Date: 22 May 1996 20:41:02 -0700

David Williams <[email-masked]> wrote:
: In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (PIX
: INTL) writes: 
: >
: >I heard on the news a few months ago that doctors were trying to get
: >licorice off the market because quite a few people have gotten sever
: >liver damage and heart problems from ingesting it frequently.

: This is pure bullshit!!!!!!  I challenge you to support this statement
: or shut up!

It's well substantiated that licorice can cause cardiac arrhythmias and 
there are a couple of deaths from a rare kind of liver failure.  
References available by e-mail request (no snail mail replies).
  
Personally, I am scared to death of all the folks with CFS running off to 
take *high* doses of licorice without even consulting an herbalist, let 
alone a doctor.  I think it would be wise to limit the availability of 
licorice: perhaps make it a prescription item.  Unfortunately if this 
happened, herbalists would not be able to dispense it either.  I think 
we really need a drug catagory in between "MD Rx only" and 'sell it on 
street corners."  But then again, I also think we should emulate certain 
countries in Europe and license herbalists, so that cousin Joe down the 
street who took a correspondence course can't hang up a sign and practice.

At the very least, big warning stickers should be plastered all over the
stuff.

---

From: Esta M Weiss <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 02:32:09 -0700

> their seemingly commercial flavor (no pun intended).
on FMS list too.... but we havent banned it... yet....:)> 

----------------------
Esta M Weiss..:)
[email-masked]
http://u.arizona.edu/~weiss
Blessed Be to all..

---

From: Robert Brigham <[email-masked]>
Date: 23 May 1996 12:35:58 GMT

Please remove triangle.gardens from your address header when posting to 
this thread.

triangle.gardens is a discussion group for folks in North Carolina's 
"Triangle" area (Durham- Raleigh- Chapel Hill) to share gardening 
information.  (It is not a health/medical discussion group.)

Thank you.

Bob Brigham
UNC-Chapel Hill

---

From: Robert Brigham <[email-masked]>
Date: 23 May 1996 12:37:36 GMT

Please remove triangle.gardens from the address header when posting to 
this thread.

Thank you.

Bob Brigham
UNC-Chapel Hill

---

From: [email-masked] (RBOGADO)
Date: 23 May 1996 09:02:36 -0400

The assertion that people who have high blood pressure "don't have
CFS" (or FMS) simply isn't true.  Many of us have both CFS/FMS and high
blood pressure.  There was a study relating certain types of low blood
pressure to CFS symptoms in some people, but that study did not claim to
explain CFS in any sort of comprehensive way.  So, to the extent that
licorice can be harmful to people with high blood pressure (something I
know nothing about), it certainly could harm many of us with CFS/FMS.

---

From: [email-masked] (Chris Malcolm)
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:28:58 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked](David Williams) writes:

>Licorice is a
>safe and effective treatment for CFS/FM as long as you do not have
>hypertension.  

It's also a laxative, as I (re)discovered on trying it, and at least in
my case, an unpleasantly laxative dose is smaller than one which has any
other obviously beneficial effects.

-- 
Chris Malcolm    [email-masked]         +44 (0)131 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
"The mind reigns, but does not govern"             Paul Valery

---

From: "K. Weber" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:38:17 -0700

I have been conducting a science experiment. I put a glass of 
licorice root tea on my window sill for a week to see if it would show 
any evidence of fermentation--candida growth. It hasn't. Licorice is a 
kind of sugar and various micro-organisms will not grow in a strong 
solution of sugar. This is how sugar preserves fruit in jam. I'm going to 
try a better experiment w/ a dilute solution of sugar and a pH test strip.
     I don't think folks w/out blood clots or hypertension need any 
special precautions  when taking licorice. I think people should take 
licorice
root tea whenever possible. Black licorice is vaguely carcinogenic ( RCC
guide to medicinal herbs) . Also candy does not contain the water which 
is the means 
by which pineal secretions control salt and sugar concentration in cells.
I think it's a good idea for licorice to be taken w/ a Dr.'s supervision.
So few of us have Drs. like that that it's a moot point.
     Also since this is  going out to other groups low blood pressure is 
not a problem in entirely healthy people. except in very hot wheather 
were it could substitute for salt tablets or Gatorade. It is very very 
good in a sort of lemonade
w/ fresh lemon or malic acid or a vitamin C powder. Malic acid powder is 
purchased very cheaply at brewer's supply houses. It substitutes for 
green apples in beer.

---

From: [email-masked](Charlene M Pieczonka)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 13:10:21 GMT

>So few of us have Drs. like that that it's a moot point.

I use licorice root tincture for acute bouts of gastritis. I was lucky
enough to have a young doctor working with my doctor for awhile who
knew a bit about herbs and shared with me the following about licorice
root.
"Don't use it on a continuous basis because it can upset the body's
potassium levels."

My mother has taken high blood pressure medicine for years and has also
eaten a banana daily because her medication messes up her potassium
levels. So anyone taking high blood pressure meds might want to consult
with their doctor or certainly a trained herbalist before embarking on
any treatment which is going to require continuous use of licorice root
tinctures.

Cookie

---

From: [email-masked] (Martin)
Date: 28 Jun 1996 12:34:39 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote:

> In article <[email-masked]>
> other obviously beneficial effects.
===================================================
Could you tell me what form this licorice comes, are we talking about
the kind from the candy store or is there some other kind?
Thanks much. Martin

---

From: R'nai Diane <[email-masked]>
Date: 28 Jun 1996 15:04:48 GMT

Hi Martin,

The licorice referred to is not from a candy store - 'licorice' candy is 
actually flavored with anise.  The poster is referring to licorice root, which 
is a medicinal plant.

I have used this supplement for years, and found it beneficial.  However, I 
have been disabled and homebound for 4 1/2 years with CFIDS and Lyme 
disease, and licorice is not a miracle cure.  It helps, in a gentle way to 
balance hormones, primarily.

I do not believe the person who posted the original message had an 
understanding of CFIDS and the devastating symptoms and effects this 
debilitating disease has on the lives of PWCs.

I have tried most of the 'miracle' cures (and never heard licorice touted as  
one of them before!), and they have not worked.  I am greatly benefitting 
>from  amino acids which are replacing those in which my body is deficient.

Sincerely,  R'nai

---

From: [email-masked] (Daniel Connelly)
Date: 28 Jun 1996 15:03:55 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
>from amino acids which are replacing those in which my body is deficient.

I haven't been following all of these newsgroup, and apologize for the
repetition in what I write.  I also plead ignorance on the subject of
fibromalagia, so apolgize for potential extratopicality.  However,
I thought a brief reply was warrented.  I refer interested parties
to the discussion on alt.med.cfs.open.

The licorice treatment promoted by David Williams was based on a
protocol established by a Dr Baschetti, who has advertised the success
of his treatment through letters to the New Zealand Journal of
Medicine and JAMA.  Both David and Dr Baschetti claim to be long-term
CFS sufferers.  The effect is on increasing steady-state cortisol
levels and elevating baseline blood pressure, so it addresses neurally
mediated hypotension and adrenal insufficiency, both of which have
been correlated with CF(ID)S.  The protocol is importent, so haphazard
licorice root trials may well prove ineffective even if the herb is
potentially helpful.

I apprear to have an adrenal-related problem, and have found licorice
enormously beneficial.  I've been using it for approximately 3 weeks.

This subject has received a great deal of attention on
alt.med.cfs.open and, before that, alt.med.cfs.  David is currently
distributing some of the extract he has been using at a moderately low
price, ordering it in bulk from suppliers, so issues of conflict of
interest have arisen.  Bring your asbestos suit....

Dan

---

From: R'nai Diane <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Jun 1996 22:45:09 GMT

Hi Dan,

I've had adrenal insufficiency too, although it's just about  corrected now.  
I notice that the Dr. espousing this treatment wrote letters to Jama and a 
NZ publication (you did use the word 'advertised') ~ well, I had a letter 
published in the CFIDS Journal too.  I don't believe licorice is a cure-all for 
CFIDS, although it may have a beneficial affect in addressing adrenal and 
hormonal insufficiency.  

I know several hundred people with CFIDS, being treated by some of the 
most knowledgeable and open-minded physicians around the world, and I 
don't know one who has been 'cured' by licorice.  

I've been corresponding with PWCs from around the world for over a year 
on CompuServe, in the CFIDS, Nat Med, and Public Health forums, and most 
of them are homebound.  Most have also tried a great variety of 
treatments, often based on the protocol of Dr. Paul Cheney of Charlotte, 
NC, and other leading CFIDS researchers ~ their research findings are often 
posted in the CFIDS Chronicle & other medical journals, as are articles by 
my own MD, who is also a Certified Nutritionist ~ if licorice were 
beneficial in treating the vast array of symptoms associated with CFIDS, 
I'm sure there would be discussion of its merits in this sector.

As I preveiously said, I think licorice root is a beneficial natural medicinal; 
however, most CFIDS sufferers are challenged with symptoms such as 
migraines, blurry vision, insomnia, memory loss, cognitive impairment, 
loss of balance, weight gain, fibromyalgia (pain where ligaments and 
tendons meet bone), and etc., that are not addressed by licorice.

Anyone who has the audacity to claim that licorice cured their Chronic 
Fatigue Syndrome in two hours, two  days, two weeks, two months, or two 
years, is attributing to licorice healing capabilities it simply does not 
possess.  There have been a lot of people promoting gimmicks or using 
lures to encourage people to partake of expensive therapies later on, 
after a 'bond' has been established.

Only a relatively low number of PWCs have neuro-mediated hypotension, 
and there is a specific tilt-table test for that.  Common table salt often is 
beneficial in helping people with this aspect of CFIDS.

Similarly, though many of us test low for DHEA levels, Dr. Cheney has found 
that some PWCs actually get worse when they supplement with DHEA. 

There is no simple cure for this disease.  One doctor is promoting thyroid 
hormones as the cure-all; another is promoting an electric 'zapper', and 
another claiming that a candida diet will cure everything.  Other 
'healthcare professionals' are marketing injections of unknown 
substances in clinics in Mexico @ $2000 a visit.  

Different people have different needs, but I sincerely doubt that anyone 
who recovers due to licorice alone had the syndrome to begin with, 
according to the evaluative standards of the CDC.

The treatment for CFIDS is a complex and individual matter.   IMO, there is 
no such thing as a 'one key fits all' approach to treatment.  

There is discussion among MDs on the Net, in a document referred to as the 
lymecfs.txt, about antibiotic-responsive CFIDS.  But at no time is it said 
that even this is a cure-all for all sufferers. 

One of the main problems in CFIDS is cellular dysfunction at a 
mitochondrial level.  The cells are incapable of burning fuel to produce ATP 
and etc. for energy.  Also, the cell walls are too permeable, and the ratios 
of magnesium, sodium, and potassium are unbalanced.  The white blood 
cell count is elevated.  These are generalizations, but true of most 
patients of the leading researchers.  Licorice hasn't the capacity to 
correct these types of dysfunction, any more than thyroid hormone has.

I believe in having hope and being open-minded, but not in setting people 
up for disappointments.  We experience too many during the trial and error 
process of finding appropriate legitimate treatments for CFIDS.

I am glad to hear you are feeling better. 

So far, I have found amino acid replacement & balanced intake of 
vitamins, minerals, cofactors & etc. to be the most beneficial of the 
natural treatments I have employed to regain my health.  The aminos are 
particularly helpful because they do not require digestion, which is often 
compromised in PWCs.  

Sincerely,  R'nai

From Loty Salazar Sun Jul  7 14:42:26 EDT 1996
Article: 2552 of sci.bio.botany
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From: Loty Salazar
Newsgroups: sci.bio.botany
Subject: Information on the CLUSIA plant (formerly called CLUSIASEAE)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 22:32:42 GMT
Organization: The World Bank Group
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Hi everybody,

	An friend of mine overseas needs information regarding incense 
and the plant that produces it.  Specifically, he needs reference, 
preferibly experimental data, of the CLUSIA plant (family of the 
GUTTIFERACEAE, formerly called CLUSIASEAE).  This plant seems to be the 
source of rubber or resin that is used for incense in religious 
ceremonies.  My friend needs information regarding the production of 
incense (volume?), chemical composition, fisiology, and use.

	Any information and/or reference will be highly appreciated.

	My personal electronic address is;

	[email-masked]

	Loty :)