Subject: Re: bottle gourd and sweet potato diffusion

From: [email-masked]
Date: 25 Nov 96 15:38:52 MET

> These two plants, _ipomoea_ and _lagenaria_, are central in many
> debates about diffusion. Indeed, the validity of the hypothesis
> about human-assisted diffusion of the sweet potato across the
> Pacific is accepted by great many reputable botanists and
> archaeologists. 
Yuri, as long as you keep posting such claims, I will reply
and simply state you are wrong for the benefit of newcomers.
They should not get wrong impressions.
Please show me this great many reputable botanists and 
archeologists?  I still claim that a majority does not
believe that human assisted diffusions explains the transmission.

> We accept as given that these plants have been domesticated, _lagenaria_
> in Africa, and _ipomoea_ in America, and that they then appeared in
> locations across the oceans.

Already you base your facts on assumptions, very bad.
It has already been proposed that 1000's of years ago,
these plants were not as domesticated as nowadays,
something that clearly needs further investigation.

 The question is, Was the transmission
> human-assisted, or did it just happen of itself, i.e. these _domesticated_
> plants somehow travelled by themselves, carried by the waves, and
> established themselves in new lands -- thereupon to be "re-domesticated"?
> By the way, the latter version almost sounds "new-agey", doesn't it?
>  
> Myself, I, following many highly qualified and competent scholars,
> am on the side of the human-assisted version of events. So, let us
> ask, what would our opponents need to do to falsify this
> human-assisted hypothesis?
>  
> (Let us assume here that the seeds _can_ travel that far in salt
> water and still remain fertile. This assumption may be valid for
> _lagenaria_. For _ipomoea_, no persuasive model of "auto-diffusion"
> has been suggested. Is someone finally going to mention "the African
> swallow" here, of the Monty Python fame?)

Evidence has been presented in this newsgroup that
the seeds of the sweet potato can remain fertile in sea water
for long times and it floats.  Why do you ignore this?

> Suppose the seeds did, somehow, arrive to new shores. First, the
> opponents of diffusion by humans would have to demonstrate that the
> plants in question can survive by themselves in the wild in the new
> area. This should be easy enough to do: prove that these plants
> exist now in the wilderness -- growing by themselves without human
> protection from encroaching jungle (highly unlikely, IMO). Have such
> evidence been available? Not to my knowledge.

Have you not read all the replies, there clearly
are reports for the sweet potato that it can grow under
special circumstances, i.e. on a perturbed piece of land,
as happens for example through a hurricane. (are hurricanes
rare, no, they happen all the time, so here we have
a omnipresent agent that can clear ground and wash seeds
miles inland).

 _If_ you find such
> back-up information, then you can further hypothesize that these
> former domesticates have been found in the wild and "re-
> domesticated" by natives. More reliance on chance.
>  
> For _lagenaria_ one possible scenario has been suggested: an African
> gourd has washed up on a beach in the Amazon delta area, was picked
> up by an inquiring native, and domesticated thereupon. Obviously,
> the chances of this happening don't seem very high, but such a
> possibility cannot be discounted offhand. Nevertheless, as
> agriculture was unknown in S America at that time, this would have
> been quite a feat! 
Was it unknown?  the earlist pottery does stem from the Amazon,
pottery usually goes along with the earlist forms of agriculture.

But a domestication could have been
> "involuntary", someone in these groups suggested. The seeds were
> thrown into a dump and grew... But this is still a "domestication"
> of sorts. So, our opponents wish to insist, the domestication of
> _lagenaria_ just happen to signify an independent invention of
> agriculture in the Americas. What an incredible coincidence!
> Lagenaria (that, on good evidence, was the first domesticated plant
> in Africa) ALSO became such a plant in the Americas -- but without
> any human contact! Wow!

> 
> Again, what are the chances of a native FINDING a gourd on the
> beach? The chances of a gourd arriving at all are not that great to
> start with, but our opponents invite us to suppose that, on top of
> that remote chance, the natives would also patrol all the beaches
> all day long, so that they find it upon arrival! A Christmas present
> from Africa?
So, what are the chances of some people arriving alive
on some boat?  Even less, wow!

>  
> To come back to the _ipomoea_. Has someone suggested a potato
> washing up on the beach in SE Asia? I hope not. That whole argument
> about a native finding the plant on the beach and domesticating it
> is non-existent for the potato (as opposed to a gourd). This is why
> the sweet potato is still the best candidate for human-assisted
> diffusion. _Ipomoea_ is always propagated through cuttings! It is
> never even grown from seeds by tribal peoples. Why? Because it is a
> highly domesticated plant in need of constant care, and it is not
> even clear that it _can_ grow from seeds in normal conditions. 
>
You totally ignore several references presented here
that they can grow from the seeds.

I think your only intention is to exasperate the other readers
of this newsgroup.

> While opinion on the gourd is still rather divided, specialists in
> the field agree, on the whole, that the sweet potato was brought out
> of the Americas to Polynesia, and likely even to the Asian mainland
> -- by seafarers -- well before Columbus.

Specialist in the field agree that you are making false
claims.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 25 Nov 96 16:09:21 MET

> for long times and it floats.  Why do you ignore this?

Here is the reference again, in case you forgot:

"Purseglove (1968) suggests introduction ... by natural dispersal; the
 seeds are viable for more than 20 years; they are hard and dormant
 unless sacrificed; they are impervious to salt water; and they are not
 buoyant, but the capsule is.  I doubt that the seedlings could survive
 in the drift zone on an ocean beach, but conceivably capsules could
 have been picked up by some Polynesian beachcomber, or seeds might
 have germinated along the banks of a tidal estuary."

Above quotes are from:
Sauer, Jonathan D.
  1993 Historical Geography of Crop Plants. Boca Raton: CRC Press.

(and not to forgot occasional storms that can throw
things miles inland).

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 17:39:33 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

[Yuri:]
: > (Let us assume here that the seeds _can_ travel that far in salt
: > water and still remain fertile. This assumption may be valid for
: > _lagenaria_. For _ipomoea_, no persuasive model of "auto-diffusion"
: > has been suggested. Is someone finally going to mention "the African
: > swallow" here, of the Monty Python fame?)

: Evidence has been presented in this newsgroup that
: the seeds of the sweet potato can remain fertile in sea water
: for long times and it floats.  Why do you ignore this?

And how did they ever get to the sea water, Thomas? I think you confuse
the arguments for lagenaria with the ones for ipomoea. Lagenaria gourds
were used as flotation devices, as you may or may not know. Was somebody
using potatoes as flotation devices? Let me know if you find out about
it... 

: > For _lagenaria_ one possible scenario has been suggested: an African
: > gourd has washed up on a beach in the Amazon delta area, was picked
: > up by an inquiring native, and domesticated thereupon. Obviously,
: > the chances of this happening don't seem very high, but such a
: > possibility cannot be discounted offhand. Nevertheless, as
: > agriculture was unknown in S America at that time, this would have
: > been quite a feat! 

: Was it unknown? 

Presumably so. If lagenaria was the earliest domesticated plant in
America, as seems likely, then it was unknown. Logical?

: the earlist pottery does stem from the Amazon,
: pottery usually goes along with the earlist forms of agriculture.

Usually it DOES NOT, Thomas. The earliest pottery that we know about, in
Japan, was made by coastal gatherers/fisherfolk. Learn more about it from
the book edited by our friend John Hoopes. The articles there state
clearly that pottery-agriculture link, assumed previously, is
substantially discredited.

: > Again, what are the chances of a native FINDING a gourd on the
: > beach? The chances of a gourd arriving at all are not that great to
: > start with, but our opponents invite us to suppose that, on top of
: > that remote chance, the natives would also patrol all the beaches
: > all day long, so that they find it upon arrival! A Christmas present
: > from Africa?

: So, what are the chances of some people arriving alive
: on some boat?  Even less, wow!

Well, if the gourd can float to the shore of America, why couldn't
shipwrecked sailors on their rafts float to the coast of America? They
have one added advantage that they can purposefully direct themselves to
the shore...

Best,

Yuri.
--
           **    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto   **
  -- a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
 
Most of the evils of life arise from man's being 
unable to sit still in a room    ||    B. Pascal

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 01:38:17 GMT

This is a repost of an error plagued article I posted and quickly canceled,
I apologise to anyone who waded through both copies (especially the
first one) - Pete

>Pacific is accepted by great many reputable botanists and

And as has been pointed out the validity of the natural dispersal 
of sweet potato has also been accepted by many reputable botanists.

>swallow" here, of the Monty Python fame?)

Your statement that there is no persuasive model of "auto-diffusion" 
of Lagenaria Siceraria and Ipomoea Batatas is just incorrect (unless 
of course you mean "to me, Yuri, there is no persuasive model...").  

For Lagenaria siceraria [the bottle gourd], "Whitaker and Carter
demonstrated that gourds could float in sea water for at least 347 
days - ample time to have crossed the Atlantic by floating - and that 
the seeds still retain their viability.  In fact, these scientists 
found that the seeds would still germinate after having remained in 
these gourds for six years" (Heiser 1979:101).

And as Mr. Burglin has also posted for Ipomoea batatas, "Purseglove
(1968).. [showed]...the seeds are viable for more than 20 years, they 
are hard and dormant unless scarified; they are impervious to salt 
water; and they are not buoyant, but the capsule is." (Sauer 1993:41)

Modes of autodiffusion for both species have been presented, if they 
were not persuasive then no botanists would even consider them.

Finally, while it is obviously ludicruous for an African swallow to 
carry a coconut (the basis of the Monty Python skit) there is no reason 
not to postulate birds as a dispersal mechanism for small seeds.  In 
quotes below you will see that botanists regularly regard bird action 
as one means of plant dispersal so you shouldn't just pooh pooh it away.

>evidence been available? Not to my knowledge. 

Then read on and see that for both it has been shown that what they 
require are disturbed environments, not necessarily human care.

>domesticated" by natives. More reliance on chance
> 
>been quite a feat! But a domestication could have been

Your model that for Lagenaria siceraria to survive after a transoceanic
voyage it would need human action is just incorrect.  As you have 
elsewhere noted, Heiser is not averse to accepting the possibility of 
pre-16th  century Old/New World contacts, let's see what his model is:

"a large number of people believe that the gourd [Lagenaria siceraria] 
must have floated across the ocean.  Many others, on the contrary, feel 
that it must have been introduced by man.  To tally up the numbers who 
hold one or the other of these views might be interesting, but it would 
solve nothing."(p. 101-102)

"I do not think I have any preconceived ideas in regard to transoceanic
diffusion before Columbus.  In fact, I have sometimes been criticized 
for straddling the fence." (p. 103-104)

pp. 105-110 Heiser summarizes Lathrap's arguments for why Lathrap
believes the gourd to be a human introduction from Africa to South
America.

"That a gourd soon disappears from a cultivated area, once cultivation 
is abandoned, is probably not unlikely.  Gourds are dependant upon 
disturbed areas...such disturbed areas today are usually created by man, 
but natural disturbances such as river flooding, forest fires, earthquakes, 
and landslides do occur without man's aid." (p. 113)

"Man has made it [Lagenaria siceraria] a domesticated plant, but even 
so it does not require the pampering that many of our domesticates do.  
In many places the plants are given no cultivation after the seeds are 
started.  In this connection it is perhaps pertinent to mention that the 
Indians of Virginia believed that it was unlucky to plant gourds, so they 
simply scattered seeds on the ground to start new plantings." (p. 113)

"The botanist Henri Pittier collected a specimen, now in the United States
National Herbarium (4138), growing along a beach at Viento Frio in
Panama.  I am not claiming that this plant resulted from a transoceanic
voyage, only that it proves it will grow on a beach.  Moreover, I am not 
sure it is necessary to prove this [although he just did], for strong 
waves, perhaps the result of a hurricane, might carry gourds inland to a 
suitable site for growth." (p. 115)

"the time has come for an alternative hypothesis [to Lathrap's].  Very 
simply it is this - the gourd floated to America." (p. 114)

"Such a hypothesis of long-distance dispersal by natural means might 
have caused raised eyebrows among past generations of botanists, who were
trying to explain all discontinuous distributions across oceans by means 
of hypothetical land bridges or lost continentss.  Today, however, it is 
widely accepted that there are many examples of long-distance dispersal 
of plants by birds, wind, or water currents and subsequent establishment 
in the New World." (p. 115)

"So I claim it is likely that a gourd, probably wild, became established 
in the Americas after floating across the ocean." (p. 116)

So Heiser makes it clear that Lagenaria siceraria can survive without 
man's aid - contrary to what you seem to be claiming above.

>even clear that it _can_ grow from seeds in normal conditions. 

It is actually clear that Ipomoea batatas CAN grow from seeds which 
are naturally dispersed.   Athough Yen (1974) does tend to conclude 
that humans are more likely means for its Polynesian origin, he does 
cite (on pp. 235-239) a number of examples of its localized dispersal 
and growth without the care of humans.  You are just incorrect when 
you say that there isn't evidence that it can grow without the care 
of humans.
 
>-- by seafarers -- well before Columbus.

So for both Ipomoea batatas and Lagenaria siceraria there is evidence 
that their respective transoceanic dispersals could have been the 
result of natural processes.  For each a possible autodispersal 
mechanism has been proposed and for each it has been demonstrated that 
they can propagate without human intervention.  So the question remains
open as to whether their dispersal was the result of human or natural
actions.  Without convincing supporting artifactual evidence of contact
I will continue to lean to the natural hypotheses.

Peter van Rossum
[email-masked]

Heiser, Charles
  1979 "The Gourd Book." Norman: Univ. of Oklahoma Press.

Sauer, Jonathan D.
  1993 "Historical Geography of Crop Plants: A Select Roster." 
Boca Raton: CRC Press.

Yen, D.E.
  1974 "The Sweet Potato and Oceania: An Essay in Ethnobotany." Bernice
P. Bishop Museum Bulletin, no. 236. Honolulu: Bishop Museum Press.

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 26 Nov 1996 17:13:06 GMT

[Yuri:]
: > These two plants, _ipomoea_ and _lagenaria_, are central in many
: > debates about diffusion. Indeed, the validity of the hypothesis
: > about human-assisted diffusion of the sweet potato across the
: > Pacific is accepted by great many reputable botanists and
: > archaeologists. 

: Yuri, as long as you keep posting such claims, I will reply
: and simply state you are wrong for the benefit of newcomers.
: They should not get wrong impressions.
: Please show me this great many reputable botanists and 
: archeologists?  I still claim that a majority does not
: believe that human assisted diffusions explains the transmission.

Thomas,

I have pointed out to you that this has been answered already. Obviously
you haven't followed this discussion, but here's an old post to bring you
up to speed. This is an excerpt from my earlier discussion with Peter van
Rossum: 

[begin quote]

Subject:      [8]Re: Sweet Potatos and Silver Bullets
From:         [9][email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1996/09/26
Newsgroups:   sci.archaeology

	...

Well, what do you know, Peter... It seems like I found what you wanted to
see already!

How about this quote:

"The current consensus is that the sweet potato originated in the
Americas and was taken thence into the Pacific in pre-Columbian times"
(Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356) [A long
list of references is given in a footnote at the bottom of the page.]

	...

[end quote]

Hope this helps,

Yuri.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 27 Nov 96 00:16:30 MET

> list of references is given in a footnote at the bottom of the page.]

Thanks for providing the reference.

Now, the issue is the !current! consensus.
the references in that book from 1971 must certainly be
older than 25 years (given it's 1996).

So, basically, we still don't know what the current consensus
is.  My claim that the majority supports non-human
assisted diffusion is as valid as your claim.

Thomas

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 28 Nov 1996 15:58:56 GMT

[Yuri quoted:]
: > "The current consensus is that the sweet potato originated in the
: > Americas and was taken thence into the Pacific in pre-Columbian times"
: > (Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356) [A long
: > list of references is given in a footnote at the bottom of the page.]

: Thanks for providing the reference.

: Now, the issue is the !current! consensus.
: the references in that book from 1971 must certainly be
: older than 25 years (given it's 1996).

: So, basically, we still don't know what the current consensus
: is.  My claim that the majority supports non-human
: assisted diffusion is as valid as your claim.

Thomas,

As I pointed out before, this sort of research seemed to have petered out
in the last 20 or so years. (I'd be greatful if someone can provide more
recent references.) So your point is rather mute.

Best,

Yuri.

---

From: "John W. Hoopes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:23:55 -0600

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

> (Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356)
 
[snip}

> Hope this helps,

Yuri,

     It seems that even short chronological disjunctions give you
problems!  As I've pointed out before (when I dared to get involved in
these threads), you tend to place a great deal of confidence in
out-of-date sources.  Your "current" consensus was published 25 years
ago, when bell-bottoms and love beads were the height of fashion.  1971
was a year to remember, but there ain't no way a 1971 publication can be
considered up-to-date!

John Hoopes

---

From: "John W. Hoopes" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:35:38 -0600

> have one added advantage that they can purposefully direct themselves to

If they were drifting from the Pacific islands to the Americas, chances
are they would have been swept far south across vast stretches of ocean,
into cold and inhospitable currents.  Without adequate clothing and
fresh water, they would have died en route.  Maybe their rafts arrived,
but empty.  The far southern Pacific is not the greatest place to be a
castaway.

In fact, floating craft with loads of sweet potatoes could have drifted
westward into the islands without any people on them.  If you don't know
where you're going, it's awfully hard to prepare for the trip...  The
biggest problem about westward ocean journeys would not have been
adequate supplies of food, but sufficient fresh water for drinking as
one floated through the tropics.

John

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 30 Nov 1996 17:17:05 GMT

John W. Hoopes ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

: > Well, if the gourd can float to the shore of America, why couldn't
: > shipwrecked sailors on their rafts float to the coast of America? They
: > have one added advantage that they can purposefully direct themselves to
: > the shore...

: If they were drifting from the Pacific islands to the Americas, chances
: are they would have been swept far south across vast stretches of ocean,
: into cold and inhospitable currents.  Without adequate clothing and
: fresh water, they would have died en route.  Maybe their rafts arrived,
: but empty.  The far southern Pacific is not the greatest place to be a
: castaway.

: In fact, floating craft with loads of sweet potatoes could have drifted
: westward into the islands without any people on them.  If you don't know
: where you're going, it's awfully hard to prepare for the trip...  The
: biggest problem about westward ocean journeys would not have been
: adequate supplies of food, but sufficient fresh water for drinking as
: one floated through the tropics.

John,

The studies of ocean currents and prevailing winds in the area have been
done. They show that such journeys are possible. There's a strong current
that moves across the Pacific towards Ecuador coast. 

Sailors have been able to survive on disabled and drifting craft for many
months. They can get fresh water from rainfall, and also from fish that
they can catch. Again, studies have been done in this area. Perhaps you
should learn more about this if you're really interested in these
theories.

Yours,

Yuri.

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 30 Nov 1996 17:04:15 GMT

: > "The current consensus is that the sweet potato originated in the
: > Americas and was taken thence into the Pacific in pre-Columbian times"
: > (Donald D. Brand, in MAN ACROSS THE SEA, Texas UP, 1971, p. 356)

:      It seems that even short chronological disjunctions give you
: problems!  As I've pointed out before (when I dared to get involved in
: these threads), you tend to place a great deal of confidence in
: out-of-date sources.  Your "current" consensus was published 25 years
: ago, when bell-bottoms and love beads were the height of fashion.  1971
: was a year to remember, but there ain't no way a 1971 publication can be
: considered up-to-date!

John,

Can you show me that the consensus have changed since then? Until such
time as when you will be able to do so, what is the point of your
objection? 

Yours,

Yuri.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 5 Dec 1996 21:38:10 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>>
>Hi y'all,
>A fellow researcher directed my attention to this thread. He provided me printed copies of previous discussions, and I did not come across mention of the "Kon-Tiki Theory."
>
> The Kon Tiki voyage certainly gave credence to the idea that ancient people using materials available in South America at that time (e.g., reed, rope or some type of rope material, etc) could have built reed boats and could have reached the outermost South Pacific Islands. In addition, linguistic evidence certainly supports a parallel route to the Spanish galleon's "batata" route 

- - - stuff deleted - - - -

oops... my mistake here. The theoretical routes should read:

Possible prehistoric: "kumara" line from S. America to Polynesia/New Zealand
Spanish 16th century (the galleons): "kamote" line from Mexico to the Philippines

Spanish 15th century (to Europe) : Aje,camote,batatas ---> to Africa, India, Indonesia, and thereabouts = "batata line"

Hope this clarifies a few things.

Arthur

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e-mail: [email-masked]
the sweetpotato homepage: http://www2.linknet.net/s_potato

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 4 Dec 1996 19:13:29 -0800

Hi y'all,

 The Kon Tiki voyage certainly gave credence to the idea that ancient people using materials available in South America at that time (e.g., reed, rope or some type of rope material, etc) could have built reed boats and could have reached the outermost South Pacific Islands. In addition, linguistic evidence certainly supports a parallel route to the Spanish galleon's "batata" route (vs. the "kumara" route that is further south?). The people in ancient South America could have taken such boat voyages due West -- how else could those huge statues on Easter Island been erected? It has been suggested that some of these ancient seafarers (not the statues) could have ventured further westward, resulting in the intentional or unintentional introduction of the sweetpotato (a likely staple on board).

There is no definitive evidence that supports human-mediated pre-historic introduction of the sweetpotato from South America into the South Pacific, except for linguistic and other circumstancial evidence that we are all aware of. The same applies to "supposed" natural causes e.g., capsules drifting across the vast ocean. However, I have actually seen sweetpotato capsules germinating given the proper environmental conditions. Otherwise, these hardy fruits have to be scarified with acid or by physical means in order to get routine germination. Again, circumstancial evidence to suggest that if capsules could have survived the transport process, whether by water or air, they certainly could have germinated once deposited on land. Again, many assumptions here.

Of course, we can always go back several eons, back to when the continents were still drifting apart. How else to explain the sweetpotato's apparent pantropical distribution?

I do not know  much about the gourd in this thread, but I have certainly worked with sweetpotatoes for quite a while now, hence my 2 cents.

Sincerely,

Arthur

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e-mail: [email-masked]

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