Subject: Re: coconut diffusion

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 28 Nov 1996 15:50:07 GMT

R Molony ([email-masked]) wrote:
: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:

: >I have a question for you and others. We know the coconut was native to
: >the Old World (most likely India). So why, at Columbus' arival, so few
: >coconuts were growing in the New World (mostly in the relatively narrow
: >area of Columbia's Pacific coast)? If the diffusion was natural, i.e.
: >non-human-assisted, they should have been all over the tropical America,
: >right? (Of course we are all aware how important was/is coconut as a
: >sorce of food for native peoples.) 

: >On the other hand, the proponents of the human-assisted hypothesis
: >suggest that the arrival of coconut was quite late historically, and thus
: >its spread did not proceed very far by the time of Columbus. Makes more
: >sense to me...

: coconut may have originated in pacific region
: fossil coconuts are known in NZ from late Miocene period

Dear R Molony,

A point well taken. But this only seems to strengthen this argument I'm
trying to make here. 

Best,

Yuri.
--
           **    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto   **
  -- a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --
 
Most of the evils of life arise from man's being 
unable to sit still in a room    ||    B. Pascal

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 1 Dec 96 22:37:21 MET

> : fossil coconuts are known in NZ from late Miocene period

I looked up the ocean currents in the Atlas.
As a matter of fact, the restricted occurance of Coconut
in a belt from Panama to Columbia would make a
lot of sense when then coconut drifted just across.
There are two large "circular currents", on in the northern
hemisphere in the Pacific rotating clockwise, going
west a little north of the equator, and there is a second
big one in the southern hemisphere, going counterclockwise.
(this one coming from the south gives the rich fishing
grounds at the coast of Peru) and also running west a little
south of the equator.
In the center along the equator is is a narrow countercurrent
which goes from west to east.  this hits the coasts of
Panama and Columbia.  So, thus this would suggest that
coconuts could have floated using that current and drifted
ashore there.
If human assistance had been involved, we would expect
much more widespread distributions.

Thomas Burglin

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From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 2 Dec 1996 16:42:30 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

[Yuri:]
: > : >I have a question for you and others. We know the coconut was
native to : > : >the Old World  ... . So why, at Columbus'
arival, so few : > : >coconuts were growing in the New World (mostly in
the relatively narrow : > : >area of Columbia's Pacific coast)? If the
diffusion was natural, i.e.  : > : >non-human-assisted, they should have
been all over the tropical America, : > : >right? (Of course we are all
aware how important was/is coconut as a : > : >sorce of food for native
peoples.) 

: I looked up the ocean currents in the Atlas.
: As a matter of fact, the restricted occurance of Coconut
: in a belt from Panama to Columbia would make a
: lot of sense when then coconut drifted just across.
: There are two large "circular currents", on in the northern
: hemisphere in the Pacific rotating clockwise, going
: west a little north of the equator, and there is a second
: big one in the southern hemisphere, going counterclockwise.
: (this one coming from the south gives the rich fishing
: grounds at the coast of Peru) and also running west a little
: south of the equator.
: In the center along the equator is is a narrow countercurrent
: which goes from west to east.  this hits the coasts of
: Panama and Columbia.  So, thus this would suggest that
: coconuts could have floated using that current and drifted
: ashore there.

Thanks for providing this info, Thomas. Yes, the currents in the Pacific
do seem favourable. Some people even said that the Pacific can be
considered a sort of an "inland sea", not unlike the Mediterranean...

: If human assistance had been involved, we would expect
: much more widespread distributions.

I don't follow your logic here. It seems to me, that if human assistance
was involved (if coconut arrived very early -- with human assistance),
the distribution should have been a lot wider. 

If the coconut arrived all by itself, this should have happened very
early. Thus, the humans would have been sure to see its usefulness as
food, and would have spread it very wide.

On the other hand, a narrow distribution is entirely consistent with the
version I suggested in my previous post: the coconut arrived with human
assistance, but rather late.

Best,

Yuri.