Subject: Re: coconut diffusion

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 29 Nov 1996 16:59:05 GMT

Paul E. Pettennude ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Yuri,

: I read all of Columbus' journals again before responding.  No where does he
: discuss coconuts.  What is your source for coconuts being restricted to a
: narrow band of Columbia? 

Dear Paul,

So you got Dr. Ray Porter involved in this? I would be interested to hear
his considered opinion on this, and yet you really didn't need to go to
such lengths to obtain this info! The answer was available all along on
my webpage... You see, we had almost exactly the same discussion earlier
with another contributor. Actually the pineapple was in western Panama,
but, you know, once upon a time Panama and Columbia were one and the same
country anyway... :)

: Which variety of coconut was this?

I'm not quite sure.

: I know that Caribbean coconuts were brought into Belize and Yucatan by the
: British.  I think you'll find there's an indigenous species in the
: Caribbean.

I doubt it very much.

: I called Dr. Ray Porter, one of the world's specialists on tropical plants.
: He's looking further into his notes but off the top of his head he says you
: might be confused.

I hope he gives this a second thought...

: Your coconut idea was presented to him without prejudice just to get his
: reaction.  His findings will be interesting.  Hope you're right on this
: one.

I know I'm right.

: I'll also pass your comments on to Fairchild Gardens, the largest
: collection of palms in the world.  It's located here in Miami.  One of
: their botanists will surely know the answer.

It will be interesting to hear from them.

The following is a part of an article that is available from my webpage,
and also from DejaNews. On my webpage, it is link #13 under the heading:
Palaeo-ethno-botany, at 

www.io.org/~yuku/dif/a26.htm

[begin quote]   
  
Subject:      Re: trans-Pacific contacts
From:         [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1996/08/26
Newsgroups:   sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology

[This post was a reply to Jeffrey Baker]

	...

: I would not be surprised if the coconut made its appearance in
: Prehispanic times, but, as I said before, I am unaware of any evidence
: for its appearance. Could you provide the names of the sites where it
: has been found?

OK.

: As with the bottle gourd, the coconut can propagate after long ocean
voyages.

True.

: Perhaps you should try examining some of the botanical literature on the
: bottle gourd's ability to survive long periods of immersion in salt water.

Yes, and I have already.

The following follows closely SEED TO CIVILIZATION, by Charles Heiser (New
edition, 1990, Harvard U. P.). He is quite a famous scholar of the origins
of agriculture.

It should be noted that Heiser is no diffusionist. In fact he's often a
significant _opponent_ of diffusionists. Yet he accepts human-assisted
diffusion for the sweet potato! Significant. For other plants in question
he's careful to hedge his bets and to qualify his language.

As far as coconut is concerned.

      The place of origin of the coconut has been the subject
      of some controversy in the past. There were some who
      held that it was a native of the New World, primarily
      because all of its close relatives are American. ...
      While it is true that the coconut does have most of its
      closer relatives among the American palms, there is now
      general agreement among botanists that it originated in
      the Indo-Pacific region. ...

      The coconut was present in both Asia and the Americas
      previous to 1492. At that time, however, it was known
      only from western Panama in the Americas, and its wide
      distribution in the New World came about in historical
      times. Its presence in Panama previous to the arrival of
      the Spanish can _probably_ be explained without invoking
      human aid, for coconuts are able to float in sea water
      ... It was grown in India by 1000 b.c. but it may not
      have been first domesticated there. (p. 166) [underline
      mine]

[Yuri:]
Of course, diffusionists counter these arguments. They point to the fact
that coconuts will have extreme difficulty propagating on their own. But I
will not get into this discussion -- too technical, and the case is too
close to call. I will only note that if coconut came to the Americas on
its own, it should have spread far wider than Panama. The fact that it was
established in such a narrow area before Columbus points to its rather
late arrival to the Americas, hence, human-assisted diffusion.

[end quote]

I hope this is satisfactory, Paul.

Best wishes,

Yuri.

p.s. Paul, I think there's some glitch in your newsreader settings,
because it keeps affixing html files to your posts which makes them very
long. Also, you posts arrive as mime format files, which is unusual in 
Usenet...

             #%    Yuri Kuchinsky in Toronto    %#
  --  a webpage like any other...  http://www.io.org/~yuku  --

I find that a great part of the information I have was 
acquired by looking up something and finding something 
else on the way             =====             F. Adams

---

From: [email-masked] (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date: 30 Nov 1996 17:28:17 GMT

CORRECTION:

Yuri Kuchinsky ([email-masked]) wrote:

: Actually the pineapple was in western Panama... [etc]

Apologies for this silly mistake I made in yesterday's post. I meant, of
course, to say: 

Actually the coconut was in western Panama...

I guess that earlier discussion of pineapple somehow got me off track...

Yuri.