From rcdana@crash.cts.com Tue Jan 16 10:55:03 EST 1996
Article: 103616 of rec.gardens
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From: rcdana@crash.cts.com (R. Dana - Green Gene)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: seeds
Date: 12 Jan 1996 13:53:31 GMT
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http://www.greengene.com/public_html

e-mail your seed list to rcdana@cts.com

DNA will be isolated from seeds and seedlings and preserved and shared with 
research scientists.


From gtillman@prairienet.org Tue Jan 16 11:08:02 EST 1996
Article: 103649 of rec.gardens
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From: gtillman@prairienet.org (Greg Tillman)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:06:29 GMT
Organization: Prairienet, the East-Central Illinois Free-Net
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Sue St.Charles (cst@mars.superlink.net) wrote:
: I am buried in snow, and the only way to cope is reading gardening
: books, looking at the pictures and planning this year's garden.  To
: anyone, what is your favorite gardening book- either reference, or the
: "coffee table" type. 

Let me once again take this opportunity to recommend Noah's Garden,
by Sara Stein.  It is a gentle plea to make your garden a little more
part of the natural landscape, and a little less - from a bird or a
bee's perspective - barren.  It is not overbearing, and Stein in fact
traces her own years of manicuring and mowing, and subsequent efforts to
undo some of what she'd done.  I enjoyed it a lot.  There's a longer
review available from my web page, below.

- greg tillman
http://www.prairienet.org/gpf/homepage.html      Grand Prairie Friends
http://www.prairienet.org/gpf/reviews.html       Prairie Pen: Book Reviews


From raifft@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 16 11:08:41 EST 1996
Article: 103694 of rec.gardens
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From: raifft@ix.netcom.com(Richard A. Ifft )
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 12 Jan 1996 21:32:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4d5m57$b24@earth.superlink.net> cst@mars.superlink.net (Sue
St.Charles) writes: 
>
>I am buried in snow, and the only way to cope is reading gardening
>books, looking at the pictures and planning this year's garden.  To
>anyone, what is your favorite gardening book- either reference, or the
>"coffee table" type. 
>
>Thanks-
>
>Looking forward to availing myself of the responses- Sue

My favorite, though it is neither a reference nor a "coffee table"
type, is Henry Mitchell's "The Essential Earthman."  He died a few
years ago, and there are still some of us who can quote chunks out of
his books such as, Washington would be a better place if everyone would
stop what they are doing and plant a camellia.  I get tears in my eyes
when I look around and see all the plants I planted just because he
wrote about them and loved them.  He had cancer, and he died helping a
neighbor plant daffodils.  Anyway, he's quite knowledgeable and
opinionated, and writes beautifully.


From lizard3@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 16 11:08:48 EST 1996
Article: 103711 of rec.gardens
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From: lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Julie B. Weinberg )
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 14 Jan 1996 03:33:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4d5m57$b24@earth.superlink.net> cst@mars.superlink.net (Sue
St.Charles) writes: 
>
>I am buried in snow, and the only way to cope is reading gardening
>books, looking at the pictures and planning this year's garden.  To
>anyone, what is your favorite gardening book- either reference, or the
>"coffee table" type. 
>
>Thanks-
>
>Looking forward to availing myself of the responses- Sue

Try "The Undaunted Garden" by Lauren Springer (Fulcrum Publishing) -
Julie. 


From lyells@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu Tue Jan 16 11:08:54 EST 1996
Article: 103925 of rec.gardens
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From: Susan Lyell <lyells@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 15 Jan 1996 14:02:29 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University, Nashville, TN, USA
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I just got "English Cottage Gardens for American Gardeners" don't 
remember the author, but will look it up if you're interested. It is a 
"coffee table book" but also includes plans and plant information. I will 
definitely use some suggestions and plantings I found there. It wasn't 
cheap ($35) but kept me busy for several weekends, planning and 
dreaming!




From bb241@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Tue Jan 16 11:09:06 EST 1996
Article: 103731 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: bb241@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jeff Blackadar)
Subject: Re: seed catalogs
Message-ID: <DL3oDz.B4t@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: bb241@freenet.carleton.ca (Jeff Blackadar)
Reply-To: bb241@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jeff Blackadar)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <brian.38.00163858@brian.slip.iquest.net> <4cuegb$35q@swordfish.fastnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:29:59 GMT
Lines: 24

Family Law (family-law@fastnet.co.uk) writes:
> 
> Thanks for the list, but do any of them  send their catalogues (and
> their seeds) overseas?
> 
> 
> Yvonne

Sally & Co. Tropical seeds have their catalog on the web:

HTTP://INFOWEB.MAGI.COM/~JBLACK/SALLY/



> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yvonne Law                       family-law@fastnet.co.uk
> Brighton
> England                          +44 1273 300883
> 




From fletcher@bluestem.prairienet.org Tue Jan 16 11:13:13 EST 1996
Article: 103949 of rec.gardens
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From: fletcher@bluestem.prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: GARDEN SOFTWARE
Date: 15 Jan 1996 17:14:50 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 18
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Paul (blue@vianet.on.ca) wrote:
: Greetings Every-one!
: I'm trying to find some real good gardening software programs for my
: wife.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!
: Thanks in advance to all who reply.
: Paul

Check out the Gardening Software page on The Garden Gate for reviews and 
links to product homepages:
	http://www.prairienet.org/garden-gate/ereview.htm

Karen Fletcher                                    fletcher@prairienet.org
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Garden Gate on Prairienet      http://www.prairienet.org/garden-gate/
The Garden Gate at SunSITE            http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden/gate/
The Garden Spider's Web                http://www.gardenweb.com/spdrsweb/




From sgriese@interactive.net Tue Jan 16 11:13:41 EST 1996
Article: 103971 of rec.gardens
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From: sgriese@interactive.net (Stephen Griese)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture,rec.gardens
Subject: Masanuba Fukouka's Natural Farming??
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:02:29 GMT
Organization: InterActive Networks, Inc. - Paterson, NJ
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.sustainable.agriculture:10160 rec.gardens:103971

Has anyone read or heard about a man named Masanobu Fukouka (sp?).
He's a Japanese farmer and author who practices a system he calls
"natural farming".  He describes his method in a book called _The One
Straw Revolution_.

His system basically involves a permanent ground cover of clover,
broadcast seeding through the clover, and non-cultivation.

I'm interested to hear others' opinions on his methods, or if anyone
has attempted to duplicate this process in the States.

Thanks for any feedback.

Stephen Griese



From cbishop@best.com Tue Jan 16 11:14:34 EST 1996
Article: 103644 of rec.gardens
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From: cbishop@best.com (Cindy Bishop)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Women's Gardening moderator wanted
Date: 13 Jan 1996 15:54:30 GMT
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I'm looking for someone who could help moderate our discussion forum on 
Gardening for Women.  We have a web site at 
http://www.pleiades-net.com called Pleiades Networks (An Internet Resource 
for Women) and "Home & Garden" is one of our many discussion forums.  We are 
looking for someone who has experience with gardening issues and can help 
answer questions, introduce new topics, and generally keep the discussions 
moving along in our forum.  Would you be interested or know anyone 
appropriate who might be able to give us a hand?  Please send them our way!  
Also, I would be interested in hearing about other mailing lists or 
newsgroups where it would be appropriate to post this message.  Please send 
all responses to my e-mail address directly.

Thanks,
Cindy Bishop


From rlangill@halcyon.com Tue Jan 16 11:15:01 EST 1996
Article: 103679 of rec.gardens
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From: rlangill@halcyon.com (Richard L. Langill)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Moorish Gardens
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 23:35:45 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
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A good place to start is John Brooks. Gardens of Paradise:  The History and
Design of Great Islamic Gardens.  NY 87
Richard L.Langill,Ph.D.
rlangill@halcyon.com
VP Academic Affairs
Saint Martin's College
Lacey, WA 98503


From rlangill@halcyon.com Tue Jan 16 11:15:43 EST 1996
Article: 103679 of rec.gardens
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From: rlangill@halcyon.com (Richard L. Langill)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Moorish Gardens
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 23:35:45 GMT
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A good place to start is John Brooks. Gardens of Paradise:  The History and
Design of Great Islamic Gardens.  NY 87
Richard L.Langill,Ph.D.
rlangill@halcyon.com
VP Academic Affairs
Saint Martin's College
Lacey, WA 98503


From kurlzabar@aol.com Sat Jan 27 23:38:46 EST 1996
Article: 105392 of rec.gardens
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From: kurlzabar@aol.com (KurlZabar)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Southern Garden history talk in NYC
Date: 24 Jan 1996 18:33:57 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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On Tuesday, Feb. 6, Davyd Hood, landscape and architectural historian,
will slide talk, "To Gather up the Fragments that Remain: Southern Garden
Clubs and the Publication of Southern Garden History," at the Donnell
Public Library Auditorium, 20 W. 53 St., New York City (across from Museum
of Modern Art). The lecture is free and no reservations are necessary.
Sponsored by the Metropolitan Chapter of the Victorian Society in America.


From stoddard@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu Sat Jan 27 23:50:13 EST 1996
Article: 105675 of rec.gardens
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From: stoddard@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu (Mari J Stoddard)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Mystery Books
Date: 25 Jan 1996 20:14:58 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona
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All of Agatha Christie's Miss Marple books feature some gardening, and at 
least one requires the reader to know quite a bit.  

Charlotte MacLeod's Peter Shandy is a plant developer at a university and 
part time sleuth.  

In article <DLEK6z.9CE@iquest.net>,  <groh@iquest.net> wrote:
>	Anyone out there feel like reading fictional books dealing with
>murder, mayhem and marigolds? (among other things)  Try John
>Sherwood's series on Celia Grant, horticulturalist and parttime
>detective extraordinaire.  All set in England and charming.  Or, try
>Jean Hager's Iris House series with 'detective'  Tess Darcy set in a
>Bed and Breakfast amongst a Iris garden to "die for" and assorted
>intrigues in a blue-blooded small town.    Enjoy!!!!!!!!!
>


-- 
Mari Stoddard          stoddard@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu
Arizona Health Sciences Library, University of Arizona
520 / 626-2925 (voice)              520 626-2922 (fax)
 URL: http://amber.medlib.arizona.edu/homepage.html


From  jawiler@umich.edu Sat Jan 27 23:50:19 EST 1996
Article: 105603 of rec.gardens
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From:  jawiler@umich.edu (James A. Wiler)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Mystery Books
Date: 26 Jan 1996 13:44:57 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
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The Name of the Rose by Uberto Eni (not sure about the author's name)
is a good murder mystery set in a medieval monastery and involves herbs.


From cadream5@aol.com Sat Jan 27 23:52:41 EST 1996
Article: 105598 of rec.gardens
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From: cadream5@aol.com (C A Dream5)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 26 Jan 1996 09:30:49 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Hi,
I picked up this thread a little late in the day. However, I have found
the Royal Horticultural Society's Gardeners Encyclopedia of Plants and
Flowers to be an excellent general plant reference.  It does not refer to
US zones being a British book. However, it has lots of color pictures of
plants and some general garden design tips. It is a reference book for
plants and cannot be recommended as a basic gardening book. It is a useful
book in any case. I do not know where to buy it in the US. I picked it up
on a trip to England some years ago.

Regards,

Michael L Mcwilliams
C A Dream5@aol.com
A dream is only tomorrow, unborn.


From Shellie@lilly.com Sat Jan 27 23:55:14 EST 1996
Article: 105856 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!inet.d48.lilly.com!inet.d48.lilly.com!nntp
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: ** Garden Catalog List on 'Net **
Message-ID: <1996Jan26.095204.7571@inet.d48.lilly.com>
From: Shellie Welch <Shellie@lilly.com>
Date: 26 Jan 96 09:52:04 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Eli LIlly & Co.
Nntp-Posting-Host: man0153.d52.lilly.com
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A fellow gardener found this link and passed it on.  It is a very 
lengthy list of catylogs, with addresses, phone ##s, etc.  Also, the 
"owner" has included his experiences with the ones he has dealt with and 
has an open invitation for others to add their comments.  Have fun!

http://seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PBM-FAQ/list/




From dreading@xmission.com Sat Jan 27 23:56:50 EST 1996
Article: 105817 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!xmission!news
From: dreading@xmission.com (Duane Reading)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: My Garden Notebook
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:56:50 GMT
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900)
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Snowy day in Utah so I started to plan my garden.....got carried away
and made my notebook into a Web page.

Take a look and follow along with me as I plan and plant my  25' by
50' foot vegetable garden.

  http://www.xmission.com/~dreading/96g.html

Duane in Sandy UT



From bberry@dial.pipex.com Sat Jan 27 23:59:31 EST 1996
Article: 105782 of rec.gardens
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From: bberry@dial.pipex.com (Bob Berry)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: An old,old vine
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:46:56 GMT
Organization: UnipalmPIPEX server (post doesn't reflect views of UnipalmPIPEX)
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Moving home about 2 years ago in Southern England we inherited two old
vines in a conservatory.  The are estimated to be 150 and 100 years
old.  They span 3m by 6m, the old has a main stem 30cm circumference,
the younger about 20cm.  The older has its roots outside the
conservatory, the younger inside.  We beleive the variety to be Black
Hamburg.

We have three problems:

1) They produce bunches of grapes but they remain small and pea sized
and turn mildrewy - Any suggestions on cultivation and
feeding/watering.  Should we water through the winter, how much should
one water during the summer?

2) The older vine has a couple of areas of woodworm.  -  Any
suggestions on treatment, or leave alone?

3) When pruning last year we noticed thet the centre core appeared
dead.  - Is this normal or just old age?

All suggestions gratefully recieved.

Thanks,  Bob



From 102162.354@CompuServe.COM Sat Jan 27 23:59:46 EST 1996
Article: 105882 of rec.gardens
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From: Artaud <102162.354@CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Barley and Hops
Date: 28 Jan 1996 04:12:21 GMT
Organization: AP Associates
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <4eet35$lm4$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>

I'm thinking of growing a small plot of barley with a few vines of 
hops here in New England.  Maybe brew some beer with the produce. 
 Anyone done this?  Where can I find seed?  And info?  Any help 
would be appreciated.

-- 
                   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
                   +- Forward In All Directions -+
                   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


From glenlee@ibm.net Thu Mar 14 21:03:35 EST 1996
Article: 110603 of rec.gardens
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From: glenlee@ibm.net   (Glen Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Seed catalogues
Date: 27 Feb 1996 06:26:09 GMT
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4gu861$1ma4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Kaj Hallgren writes:
>Hello
>I would like to have addresses or fax numbers to different companies
>who have seedcatalogues. Especially from United Kingdom, the
>Netherlands and USA, but anything will do.
>Thank you in advance.
>
>Kaj Hallgren, Finland


Chiltern Seeds have a wonderful catalog.  No photos, just text, but it's
fun reading.  Wide variety, I counted 64 varieties of Campanula available
in the 1995 edition.

Chiltern Seeds
Bortree Stile, Ulverston,
Cumbria LA12 7PB, England
Fax (01229) 584459

I think I sent the equivalent of 1 British pounds to receive it ($2.50 CDN).

Glen In Regina, Sk
Zone 3




From puck@primenet.com Thu Mar 14 21:03:43 EST 1996
Article: 111389 of rec.gardens
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From: puck <puck@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Seed catalogues
Date: 2 Mar 1996 11:06:01 -0700
Organization: Rancho Deluxe Productions
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Kaj Hallgren wrote:
> 
> Hello
> I would like to have addresses or fax numbers to different companies
> who have seedcatalogues. Especially from United Kingdom, the
> Netherlands and USA, but anything will do.
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> Kaj Hallgren, Finland
> 
> e-mail: kaj.hallgren@pp.inet.fi


	Check out Santa Barbara Heirloon Seedling Nursery's online catalog at
http://www.heirloom.com/heirloom

or by mail:

                             Santa Barbara Heirloom Seedling Nursery
                                           P.O. Box 4235 
                                   Santa Barbara, California 93140


From puck@primenet.com Thu Mar 14 21:05:26 EST 1996
Article: 111389 of rec.gardens
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From: puck <puck@primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Seed catalogues
Date: 2 Mar 1996 11:06:01 -0700
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Kaj Hallgren wrote:
> 
> Hello
> I would like to have addresses or fax numbers to different companies
> who have seedcatalogues. Especially from United Kingdom, the
> Netherlands and USA, but anything will do.
> Thank you in advance.
> 
> Kaj Hallgren, Finland
> 
> e-mail: kaj.hallgren@pp.inet.fi


	Check out Santa Barbara Heirloon Seedling Nursery's online catalog at
http://www.heirloom.com/heirloom

or by mail:

                             Santa Barbara Heirloom Seedling Nursery
                                           P.O. Box 4235 
                                   Santa Barbara, California 93140


From trav@u.washington.edu Thu Mar 14 21:09:57 EST 1996
Article: 110705 of rec.gardens
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From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:36:54 -0800
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> >What plants can i grow in my garden that will "fix" nitrogen?  I would
> >be interested in both food crops and flowers.  The only one I can
> >remember is peanuts, and I may well be wrong.
> >
> Hi Bryan - All legumes fix nitrogen - sweet peas, garden peas, snow
> peas, sugar snap peas, crowder peas, string beans, shell beans, dry
> beans, fava beans, scarlet runner beans, cleome (flower), and PEANUTS!!
> In addition, ground covers include clover and alfalfa. 

Well, to be picky (yes, that means I'm bored):

I think all the garden legumes fix nitrogen.  But it's not true that all 
legumes do.  This family (fabaceae; used to be leguminosae I think) is 
classified by all members bearing their seeds in pods.


Travis


From dps@hyperion.haystack.edu Thu Mar 14 21:10:15 EST 1996
Article: 111647 of rec.gardens
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From: Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 4 Mar 1996 12:24:30 GMT
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Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>I think all the garden legumes fix nitrogen.  But it's not true that all 
>legumes do.  This family (fabaceae; used to be leguminosae I think) is 
>classified by all members bearing their seeds in pods.



To be more correct, it's not the plants that fix the nitrogen, but the 
bacteria that colonize the "nodules" on the roots. If you want to be sure 
that you are getting good colonization, you should add the bacteria as 
well as planting the legumes. Inoculants are available for legumes used as 
cover crops. Since there are different kinds of bacteria for different 
plants (I am told), there are different inoculants for different plants. 
Check with a farm supply for the right inoculant.



From Tristan.Hatton-Ellis@bris.ac.uk Thu Mar 14 21:13:06 EST 1996
Article: 112038 of rec.gardens
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From: Tristan Hatton-Ellis <Tristan.Hatton-Ellis@bris.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
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Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>> To be more correct, it's not the plants that fix the nitrogen, but the 
>> bacteria that colonize the "nodules" on the roots. If you want to be sure 
>> that you are getting good colonization, you should add the bacteria as 
>> well as planting the legumes. Inoculants are available (SNIP)

>Okay, okay.  I think it's worth a test sowing, though, to see if you need 
>to inoculate; at least for the common legumes.  I've never inoculated my 
>seeds or soil, and the favas (vicia faba), dry and snap beans (phaseolus 
>vulgaris), and peas (pisum sativum) all develop lots of those root nodules 
>which indicate colonization.

>Travis
>Sumner, Washington
>USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 4

There is a research group here at Bristol working on genetic diversity of 
Rhizobium leguminosarum, probably the best-known N-fixing bacterium; they 
culture them from soil isolates, and then DNA fingerprint them. Basically, 
even in arable fields there seems to be a healthy diversity of different 
strains of this bacterium in the soil, and so I would have thought that in 
most cases inoculation of soil is a complete waste of time. Gardeners have 
grown legumes for a long time now without adding soil inoculum every time, 
and I see no reason why they should start now. I agree with Travis - have a 
look at the roots of your peas, and you will almost certainly find lots of 
nodules. Even if there aren't any, this isn't necessarily a problem (some 
legumes don't nodulate)unless the plant isn't growing well.

If it aint broken, don't fix it!

Tristan



From mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:15:02 EST 1996
Article: 112627 of rec.gardens
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From: mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com(Mark & Victoria)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 8 Mar 1996 15:12:52 GMT
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>If it aint broken, don't fix it!
>
>Tristan
>
Perfection!  In Texas we have an overabundance of N anyway.  I wish
someone would study the N availability in the soil after our
thunderstorm season, yet to arrive :(

Lightening also fixes nitrogen.  And boy do we get lightening here!
A northerner moves south, and instead of the gansters, we have
tornados!  At least the latter is organic!

Victoria*


From zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com Thu Mar 14 21:15:52 EST 1996
Article: 112676 of rec.gardens
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From: zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com (SKID Photography)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 8 Mar 1996 12:17:46 -0500
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In article <4hpipk$t12@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, & Victoria writes: 
 
> 
>>If it aint broken, don't fix it! 
>> 
>>Tristan 
>> 
>Perfection!  In Texas we have an overabundance of N anyway.  I wish 
>someone would study the N availability in the soil after our 
>thunderstorm season, yet to arrive :( 
> 
>Lightening also fixes nitrogen.  And boy do we get lightening here! 
>A northerner moves south, and instead of the gansters, we have 
>tornados!  At least the latter is organic! 
> 
>Victoria* 
> 
Studies have been done with regards to the availability of N caused by
lightning.  We unfortunately cannot cite specific references, but the gist
of the results were that usually, the rain that almost inevitabley follows
or accompanies the lightning, washes away the N produced by said
lightning.......a complete wash, as it were. 
 
Bill & Harvey 
zuffalig/SKID  zone 6  CT  U.S.A. 


From lizard3@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:16:20 EST 1996
Article: 112492 of rec.gardens
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From: lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 9 Mar 1996 01:43:28 GMT
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In <4hpq3q$ls8@pipe12.nyc.pipeline.com> zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com (SKID
Photography) writes: 
>
>In article <4hpipk$t12@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, & Victoria writes: 
> 
>> 
>>>If it aint broken, don't fix it! 
>>> 
>>>Tristan 
>>> 
>>Perfection!  In Texas we have an overabundance of N anyway.  I wish 
>>someone would study the N availability in the soil after our 
>>thunderstorm season, yet to arrive :( 
>> 
>>Lightening also fixes nitrogen.  And boy do we get lightening here! 
>>A northerner moves south, and instead of the gansters, we have 
>>tornados!  At least the latter is organic! 
>> 
>>Victoria* 
>> 
>Studies have been done with regards to the availability of N caused by
>lightning.  We unfortunately cannot cite specific references, but the
gist
>of the results were that usually, the rain that almost inevitabley
follows
>or accompanies the lightning, washes away the N produced by said
>lightning.......a complete wash, as it were. 
> 
>Bill & Harvey 
>zuffalig/SKID  zone 6  CT  U.S.A. 

Hi guys - I have just got to say - "to heck with the studies"! I have
gardened in the high altitude desert for close to 20 years. We get 13
inches annual precipitation. In the summer, we get it in the form of
intense thunderstorms. The next day, the corn is darker green, more
robust and bigger. All the plants look better, are bigger, darker
green, etc. I have to believe that the sky rains fertilizer! To heck
with the studies... I'm gonna believe it anyway! And as far as the
storms in Texas - perhaps that explains why everything's bigger! in
Texas!  Julie


From zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com Thu Mar 14 21:18:17 EST 1996
Article: 112838 of rec.gardens
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From: zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com (SKID Photography)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 10 Mar 1996 13:29:16 -0500
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In article <4hqno0$9ad@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, Gad Zukes! writes: 
 
>In <4hpq3q$ls8@pipe12.nyc.pipeline.com> zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com (SKID 
>Photography) writes:  
>> 
>>In article <4hpipk$t12@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, & Victoria writes:  
>>  
>>>  
>>>>If it aint broken, don't fix it!  
>>>>  
>>>>Tristan  
>>>>  
>>>Perfection!  In Texas we have an overabundance of N anyway.  I wish  
>>>someone would study the N availability in the soil after our  
>>>thunderstorm season, yet to arrive :(  
>>>  
>>>Lightening also fixes nitrogen.  And boy do we get lightening here!  
>>>A northerner moves south, and instead of the gansters, we have  
>>>tornados!  At least the latter is organic!  
>>>  
>>>Victoria*  
>>>  
>>Studies have been done with regards to the availability of N caused by 
>>lightning.  We unfortunately cannot cite specific references, but the 
>gist 
>>of the results were that usually, the rain that almost inevitabley 
>follows 
>>or accompanies the lightning, washes away the N produced by said 
>>lightning.......a complete wash, as it were.  
>>  
>>Bill & Harvey  
>>zuffalig/SKID  zone 6  CT  U.S.A.  
> 
>Hi guys - I have just got to say - "to heck with the studies"! I have 
>gardened in the high altitude desert for close to 20 years. We get 13 
>inches annual precipitation. In the summer, we get it in the form of 
>intense thunderstorms. The next day, the corn is darker green, more 
>robust and bigger. All the plants look better, are bigger, darker 
>green, etc. I have to believe that the sky rains fertilizer! To heck 
>with the studies... I'm gonna believe it anyway! And as far as the 
>storms in Texas - perhaps that explains why everything's bigger! in 
>Texas!  Julie 
> 
 
Dear Julie, 
 
Just because there is a thunder (lightning) storm it does not actually
follow that it is the lightning which is causing the 'greening'  You also
mentioned that it rains......perhaps, and I'm not saying this is for sure,
the 'greening' is just caused by the rain. 
 
In the East, at essentially sea level, when it rains a lot, the 'grass'
(and corn is a grass) gets 'greener' and grows A LOT!  In this part of the
counrty, our rains, most often, are not accompanied by thunder and
lightning, and yet the grasses and veggies get greener anyway.  It could be
that the limiting factor in growth, at those times, is just available
water, plain and simple. 
 
We write this not to burst a romantic bubble, but rather so we can all move
ahead with better gardening techniques. (Unfortunately, at the moment we
can't come up with a false 'cause and effect' old wives tale...thinking
that the world was flat, did not seem appropriate.)  If it really is water
that is limiting plant growth, then the next logical step is to try and
figure out how to make water more available to our plants (mulch, soil
ammendments, irrigation etc.)  If it really was the lightning, perhaps we
should do as some other postee suggested (and we think is totally
ridiculous) put iron rods in the soil to attract the electricity in the air
to free up that nitrogen! 
 
Well that's about it........I hope this was not too serious a response to a
lighthearted post. 
 
Bill & Harvey 
zuffalig/SKID  zone 6  CT  U.S.A.


From bkay1@orci.com Thu Mar 14 21:19:00 EST 1996
Article: 113283 of rec.gardens
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From: bkay1@orci.com (B.K.)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:00:42 GMT
Organization: OnRamp Communications, Inc.
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Since plant roots must come in contact with nutrients for them to
become adsorbed, maybe the rainwater is leaching the soil nitrates so
that the nitrate then comes in contact with the root hairs?  This
would explain the greening-up the next day.

B.K. 
 



From lizard3@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:21:28 EST 1996
Article: 111816 of rec.gardens
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From: lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 5 Mar 1996 00:29:41 GMT
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Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> writes: 

Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu> wrote:

I think all the garden legumes fix nitrogen.  But it's not true that
all legumes do.  This family (fabaceae; used to be leguminosae I think)
is classified by all members bearing their seeds in pods.

To be more correct, it's not the plants that fix the nitrogen, but the 
bacteria that colonize the "nodules" on the roots. If you want to be
sure that you are getting good colonization, you should add the
bacteria as well as planting the legumes. Inoculants are available for
legumes used as cover crops. Since there are different kinds of
bacteria for different plants (I am told), there are different
inoculants for different plants. Check with a farm supply for the right
inoculant.
>
Hi - If we are going to pick nits here, I'd like to point out that the
bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air in the soil (rhizobia) need the
legumes to supply energy. The rhizobia actually infect the plant. The
whole thing is a lovely symbiotic relationship, so it's sort of like,
which came first, the chicken or the egg. As far as inoculant is
concerned, many seed suppliers also sell different varieties of
inoculant. One you've grown a nitrogen-fixing legume in an area of the
garden, it doesn't have to be re-inoculated for a few years. The other
thing I'd like to say is that I've used the "garden" variety inoculant,
not the specialized stuff, in my home garden for years with great
success. Sometimes this kind of specialization and nit-picky discussion
scares away otherwise enthusiastic beginners. Gardening doesn't have to
be complicated...some people like to make it that way, and enjoy it,
but not everyone has to. Julie



From dps@hyperion.haystack.edu Thu Mar 14 21:22:18 EST 1996
Article: 111759 of rec.gardens
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From: Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 6 Mar 1996 13:56:39 GMT
Organization: MIT Haystack Observatory
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lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!) wrote:
>I'd like to point out that the
>bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air in the soil (rhizobia) need the
>legumes to supply energy. The rhizobia actually infect the plant. The
>whole thing is a lovely symbiotic relationship...........

Thanks for the clarification. My main point was that the bacteria are 
necessary for the nitrogen fixation and not just the plant.



>One you've grown a nitrogen-fixing legume in an area of the
>garden, it doesn't have to be re-inoculated for a few years. The other
>thing I'd like to say is that I've used the "garden" variety inoculant,
>not the specialized stuff, in my home garden for years with great
>success............


Good point. I usually use the cover crops in different areas in different 
years, so I usually use the inoculant. It's not expensive, but there's 
always something else to spend money on so..........


>Sometimes this kind of specialization and nit-picky discussion
>scares away otherwise enthusiastic beginners. Gardening doesn't have to
>be complicated...some people like to make it that way, and enjoy it,
>but not everyone has to. Julie
>

I didn't mean to scare anyone away. My apologies.

For the new gardner, note that the plants will grow without the bacteria 
if nitrogen is available from the soil, so you don't have to inoculate the 
planting. The advantage in doing so is that more nitrogen will be 
available for succeeding crops in that area.



From mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:23:14 EST 1996
Article: 112010 of rec.gardens
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From: mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com(Mark & Victoria)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 6 Mar 1996 23:08:28 GMT
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In <4hk5in$k40@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Dwight Sipler
<dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> writes: 

>>Sometimes this kind of specialization and nit-picky discussion
>>scares away otherwise enthusiastic beginners. Gardening doesn't have
to
>>be complicated...some people like to make it that way, and enjoy it,
>>but not everyone has to. Julie
>>

Using an innoculant with peas or legumes is not a specialized nit pick!
If the bacteria is not available in the soil, (which it usually is) it
has to be put there.  Good gardeners who know their stuff are not nit
picking, they are honing as they learn more and more about soils and
plants.  Depending on what one grows, some of this information is key. 
If a new gardener is planting legumes to fix nitrogen because they read
or heard it somewhere, but they missed the part about the innoculant,
they might not be fixing as much nitrogen as they could had they read
this and other posts.
Victoria*


From mbm@panix.com Thu Mar 14 21:23:34 EST 1996
Article: 112382 of rec.gardens
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From: mbm@panix.com (Marion Margoshes)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 6 Mar 1996 22:27:09 -0500
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In <4hk5in$k40@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> writes:

>lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!) wrote:
>>I'd like to point out that the
>>bacteria that fix nitrogen from the air in the soil (rhizobia) need the
>>legumes to supply energy. The rhizobia actually infect the plant. The
>>whole thing is a lovely symbiotic relationship...........

>Thanks for the clarification. My main point was that the bacteria are 
>necessary for the nitrogen fixation and not just the plant.



>>One you've grown a nitrogen-fixing legume in an area of the
>>garden, it doesn't have to be re-inoculated for a few years. The other
>>thing I'd like to say is that I've used the "garden" variety inoculant,
>>not the specialized stuff, in my home garden for years with great
>>success............


>Good point. I usually use the cover crops in different areas in different 
>years, so I usually use the inoculant. It's not expensive, but there's 
>always something else to spend money on so..........


>>Sometimes this kind of specialization and nit-picky discussion
>>scares away otherwise enthusiastic beginners. Gardening doesn't have to
>>be complicated...some people like to make it that way, and enjoy it,
>>but not everyone has to. Julie
>>

>I didn't mean to scare anyone away. My apologies.

>For the new gardner, note that the plants will grow without the bacteria 
>if nitrogen is available from the soil, so you don't have to inoculate the 
>planting. The advantage in doing so is that more nitrogen will be 
>available for succeeding crops in that area.

Please don't apologize for a scientific answer.  Beginning gardeners 
should read and absorb on their own level, and this will result in more 
knowledge for all.  It would be too bad if this group was kept on the 
lowest level. mbm


From mariannd@acy.digex.net Thu Mar 14 21:25:35 EST 1996
Article: 112114 of rec.gardens
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From: mariannd@acy.digex.net (Mariann Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 96 16:11:55 GMT
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Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> wrote:
___
___For the new gardner, note that the plants will grow without the bacteria 
___if nitrogen is available from the soil, so you don't have to inoculate 
the 
___planting. The advantage in doing so is that more nitrogen will be 
___available for succeeding crops in that area.

  "available for succeeding crops" ? 

Uh oh. I'm confused. Could one of you knowledgable posters correct my 
misimpressions please? 

I thought that the bacteria allowed the plant to use the nitrogen from the 
air, not the soil, so that's why nitrogen-fixers could successfully grow in 
nitrogen-poor soil. Right so far? 

But, the soil *remains* poor in nitrogen unless the nitrogen, which came 
>from  the air but is now in the plant's tissues, is somehow returned to the 
*soil* by letting the plant return _itself_ to the soil by rotting. The 
plant does not somehow "excrete" (for want of a better term!) into the soil 
the nitrogen it has acquired, does it?  So therefore, grow a legume, at the 
end of the season, rip out the dead plants and put them somewhere else 
(compost bin or landfill, whatever), and you have not done one good thing 
for that soil???!  Correct or not?   Similarly, plant a non-legume cozily 
next to a legume in nitrogen-poor soil, and the non-legume will STILL need 
nitrogen amendments to grow well. Correct or not?  

Side issue: 
So why is planting legumes touted as (it always seems to me) such an 
earth-friendly thing to do?  Analogy: plant a low-water plant, it will make 
your soil wet. No, the low-water plant is merely capable of surviving in 
those conditions, it doesn't change the conditions. Am I totally off-base 
here?

Thanks, you biology/botany/chemistry mavens!!!





.................................................................
:  Mariann Davis                      Egg Harbor, NJ             :
:  mariannd@acy.digex.net            (Pine Barrens country)      :
.................................................................


From trav@u.washington.edu Thu Mar 14 21:26:07 EST 1996
Article: 112192 of rec.gardens
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From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:57:04 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
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> I thought that the bacteria allowed the plant to use the nitrogen from the 
> air, not the soil, so that's why nitrogen-fixers could successfully grow in 
> nitrogen-poor soil. Right so far? 

Yes.

> But, the soil *remains* poor in nitrogen unless the nitrogen, which came 
> from the air but is now in the plant's tissues, is somehow returned to the 
> *soil* by letting the plant return _itself_ to the soil by rotting. The 
> plant does not somehow "excrete" (for want of a better term!) into the soil 
> the nitrogen it has acquired, does it?  So therefore, grow a legume, at the 
> end of the season, rip out the dead plants and put them somewhere else 
> (compost bin or landfill, whatever), and you have not done one good thing 
> for that soil???!  Correct or not?   Similarly, plant a non-legume cozily 
> next to a legume in nitrogen-poor soil, and the non-legume will STILL need 
> nitrogen amendments to grow well. Correct or not?

The main problem I see in your argument is this:  Why do you assume when
you rip a plant out of the ground, that anywhere near a majority of the
root system comes with it?  The part of the roots that come up with the
plant in this case is the older, woody, essentially non-functional (except
as ductwork) section.

If you turn under a legume, you certainly will release more nitrogen than
if you remove the tops.  But in either case, the largest share of "fixed"
nitrogen is in the root system, most of which remains in the ground when
you pull up a plant.


Travis
Sumner, Washington
USDA zone 8, Sunset zone 4



From allyn@u.washington.edu Thu Mar 14 21:34:31 EST 1996
Article: 112194 of rec.gardens
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From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:00:29 -0800
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In article <4hn1sb$e5o_002@slip.digex.net.acy.digex.net>,
mariannd@acy.digex.net (Mariann Davis) wrote:

>Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> wrote:
>___For the new gardner, note that the plants will grow without the bacteria 
>___if nitrogen is available from the soil, so you don't have to inoculate 
>the 
>___planting. The advantage in doing so is that more nitrogen will be 
>___available for succeeding crops in that area.
>
>  "available for succeeding crops" ? 
>
>Uh oh. I'm confused. Could one of you knowledgable posters correct my 
>misimpressions please? 
>
>I thought that the bacteria allowed the plant to use the nitrogen from the 
>air, not the soil, so that's why nitrogen-fixers could successfully grow in 
>nitrogen-poor soil. Right so far? 

Right, the bacteria take nitrogen from the air in the soil pores, and
convert it to nitrogen compounds that the plants can use (such as ammonia
or nitrates), in return for a cozy home safe from predators, and some
other services provided by the plant.

>But, the soil *remains* poor in nitrogen unless the nitrogen, which came 
>from the air but is now in the plant's tissues, is somehow returned to the 
>*soil* by letting the plant return _itself_ to the soil by rotting.

Ah, but those bacteria are efficient little beasties and don't know when
to stop; they produce more nitrogen compounds than the plant can use.  The
excess appears in the soil, and can be used by other plants.

As Dwight pointed out, if there is already plenty of soil nitrogen
available, there's no need to innoculate with bacteria: many (most?)
legumes aren't willing to 'pay' for a service they don't need, and often
won't bother to negotiate with the bacteria even if they are present.

>plant does not somehow "excrete" (for want of a better term!) into the soil 
>the nitrogen it has acquired, does it?

I don't know the mechanism, so I don't know if it's intentional excretion
>from  the nodules, or more like leaching.  But the plant has nowhere to
store the nitrogen compounds except in new tissue, and it's already
growing as well as it can. With a plentiful suply of nitrogen, it's growth
will be limited by something else, maybe a trace element in short supply,
maybe water, maybe light.  So the excess nitrogen does get 'lost' to the
soil.

>Similarly, plant a non-legume cozily 
>next to a legume in nitrogen-poor soil, and the non-legume will STILL need 
>nitrogen amendments to grow well. Correct or not?  

A heavy feeder such as corn or asparagus is probably going to need more
than just a legume's nitrogen-fixing excess.  But turf grass can easily
live off of the excess from some white clover in the lawn, as long as you
don't expect the currently popular unhealthily lush dark green all summer
long.  In the Pacific Northwest, we have very nitrogen-poor soils on the
average because of the steady winter rains, and red alder, a nitrogen
fixing pioneer tree, is a very important source of nitrogen to get the
ecosystem restarted after a disaster such as fire or clearcutting (though
the loggers don't bother with succession, they just air drop huge
quantities of fertilizers instead).

>Side issue: 
>So why is planting legumes touted as (it always seems to me) such an 
>earth-friendly thing to do?

Well, in the sense of being a cover crop, they do more than just add
nitrogen.  Some also have deep root systems that help break up and areate
the soil, they help crowd out weeds, and when they are dug in as a green
manure, they add not only the additional nitrogen in their corpses, but
organic matter as well.  The nitrogen fixing isn't usually the most
important benefit of a green manure, but it's a useful enough added bonus
that many people prefer to choose legumes.

>  Analogy: plant a low-water plant, it will make 
>your soil wet. No, the low-water plant is merely capable of surviving in 
>those conditions, it doesn't change the conditions. Am I totally off-base 
>here?

Unfortunately, simple analogies often don't work in complex systems, which
is what any sustainable environment is.  Comparatively little is known
about soil organisms and how they interact compared to what is probably
there to be found out.  Legumes are pretty well studied largely because of
their economic importance.
-- 
Allyn Weaks
allyn@u.washington.edu
PNW Native Wildlife Gardening:  (under construction)
  http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/


From mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:49:21 EST 1996
Article: 112623 of rec.gardens
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com(Mark & Victoria)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 8 Mar 1996 15:08:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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References: <4gvvug$n8m@news-1.starnet.net> <4h0d5d$71o@cloner4.netcom.com> <Pine.OSF.3.91l.960227223226.15206B-100000@saul7.u.washington.edu> <4hendu$r6f@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <4hg1tl$a7m@cloner3.netcom.com> <4hk5in$k40@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <4hn1sb$e5o_002@slip.digex.net.acy.digex.net> <allyn-0703961500290001@cornetto.chem.washington.edu>
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 Legumes are pretty well studied largely because of
>their economic importance.
>-- 
>Allyn Weaks
>allyn@u.washington.edu
>PNW Native Wildlife Gardening:  (under construction)
>  http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/

Allyn what do you think of the ammendment in the Texas Consitution
which allows ag land to be used for wildlife refuge, not farmed, yet,
still allows the tax break?  I think it is a wonderfully progressive
statement which more states should follow.  It is in it's infancy
currently, but the Extension and Comptroller etc are working together
to better the ecological environment in Texas.
Victoria*


From allyn@u.washington.edu Thu Mar 14 21:53:17 EST 1996
Article: 113415 of rec.gardens
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From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:56:39 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
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In article <4hpii7$sta@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, mgoswitz@ix.netcom.com(Mark
& Victoria) wrote:

>  Legumes are pretty well studied largely because of
> >their economic importance.

> Allyn what do you think of the ammendment in the Texas Consitution
> which allows ag land to be used for wildlife refuge, not farmed, yet,
> still allows the tax break?

Sounds good.  And I've heard a rumor that Colorado has tax credits for
people who actively improve habitat.
-- 
Allyn Weaks  allyn@u.washington.edu
PNW Native Wildlife Gardening:  http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/
Any advertisements sent to any of my email accounts will be billed $25 per
message, $1 per character, including all header lines.  No exceptions.  Sending
such mail constitutes agreement to these terms.


From lizard3@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:55:20 EST 1996
Article: 112270 of rec.gardens
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From: lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen? (and more)
Date: 8 Mar 1996 04:56:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4hn1sb$e5o_002@slip.digex.net.acy.digex.net> mariannd@acy.digex.net
(Mariann Davis) writes: 
>
>Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> wrote:
___
___For the new gardner, note that the plants will grow without the
bacteria 
___if nitrogen is available from the soil, so you don't have to
inoculate 
the 
___planting. The advantage in doing so is that more nitrogen will be 
___available for succeeding crops in that area.

 "available for succeeding crops" ? 

Mariann wrote: 
Uh oh. I'm confused. Could one of you knowledgable posters correct my 
misimpressions please? 

I thought that the bacteria allowed the plant to use the nitrogen from
the air, not the soil, so that's why nitrogen-fixers could successfully
grow in nitrogen-poor soil. Right so far?  

Yes.
>
But, the soil *remains* poor in nitrogen unless the nitrogen, which
came from the air but is now in the plant's tissues, is somehow
returned to the *soil* by letting the plant return _itself_ to the soil
by rotting. The plant does not somehow "excrete" (for want of a better
term!) into the soil the nitrogen it has acquired, does it?  So
therefore, grow a legume, at the end of the season, rip out the dead
plants and put them somewhere else(compost bin or landfill, whatever),
and you have not done one good thing for that soil???!  Correct or not?

Incorrect.

Similarly, plant a non-legume cozily next to a legume in nitrogen-poor
soil, and the non-legume will STILL need nitrogen amendments to grow
well. Correct or not? 

Incorrect, although if the soil is really poor, it might need more
nitrogen added to soil.

Side issue: 
So why is planting legumes touted as (it always seems to me) such an 
earth-friendly thing to do?  Analogy: plant a low-water plant, it will
make your soil wet. No, the low-water plant is merely capable of
surviving in those conditions, it doesn't change the conditions. Am I
totally off-base here?
>
>Thanks, you biology/botany/chemistry mavens!!!
................................................................
>:  Mariann Davis                      Egg Harbor, NJ             :
>:  mariannd@acy.digex.net            (Pine Barrens country)      :
>.................................................................

Julie writes:

Here is a quote from Rodale's Encyclopedia of Organic 
Gardening (c. 1968): "An acre of inoculated legumes will take as much
nitrogen from the air as is contained in ten tons of manure. Much of
this is stored in the soil, and much or all of the rest is returned to
the soil when the plants or their residues are plowed down" (p. 663) 

It is known that legumes fix nitrogen from the air and add it to the
soil, as well as using it for their own growth. That is why growing
corn and beans together worked so well for American Indians...the beans
added more nitrogen to the soil, which the nitrogen hungry corn could
use.

I want to reply to a few remarks As far as my concern that sometimes we
get carried away - for example, with specialized inoculants for legumes
- and "scare" away potential gardeners... 1) I am a long time "how to"
garden writer and know from experience how this turns off a
beginner.While I do discuss "scientific" bases of the many aspects of
gardening, I also let readers know that they can keep it simple and
still be successful. I also didn't intend for the author of the
information about the legume inoculants to apologize. His info was good
and accurate...I was just adding a few thoughts.

2) I did not mean to imply that this type of specific information
should not be discussed or shared, simply that less complex
alternatives be given, too, to help beginners have a successful,
uncomplicated first or second garden 

3) if I were a beginning gardener, I would resent the attitude that was
expressed in one post replying to mine that less scientific information
is somehow "lower" than more specific, more scientifically exacting
discussions. I think there's room for everyone here. It would equally
be a shame if this group became the domain of "hi-falootin'" elitist
plant people...the beauty of this group is that we can all get
information we can use and we can ignore those discussions/topics that
are of little use or interest to us.



From mariannd@acy.digex.net Thu Mar 14 21:56:03 EST 1996
Article: 112330 of rec.gardens
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From: mariannd@acy.digex.net (Mariann Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 96 14:54:26 GMT
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----------------begin original message-------------------------
In article <4hoemp$akg@reader2.ix.netcom.com>,
   lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!) wrote:
Julie writes:

Here is a quote from Rodale's Encyclopedia of Organic 
Gardening (c. 1968): "An acre of inoculated legumes will take as much
nitrogen from the air as is contained in ten tons of manure. Much of
this is stored in the soil, and much or all of the rest is returned to
the soil when the plants or their residues are plowed down" (p. 663) 

It is known that legumes fix nitrogen from the air and add it to the
soil, as well as using it for their own growth. That is why growing
corn and beans together worked so well for American Indians...the beans
added more nitrogen to the soil, which the nitrogen hungry corn could
use.
----------------end original message-------------------------


Julie/lizard3/Gad Zukes,
 
Thanks for your response. Your quote agreed with my point: 
"..much or all of the rest is returned...when residues are plowed down."
(Although it seems like unclear writing to say "much is A, and much or all 
of the rest is B", don't you think?)

The two statements I want to know more about are: 
1st paragraph (Rodale):  "Much of this is stored in the soil,"
2nd paragraph (you):     "and add it to the soil,"

This does sound like the plant is secreting or excreting the nitrogen into 
the soil. How does it do this?  Does it then follow that over a period of 
time, the nitrogen in the soil will build up to a more normal level (in 
soils that started out nitrogen-poor, then legumes were planted)? 

Mariann
not a biochemist, nor do I play one on TV 



From lizard3@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 21:57:22 EST 1996
Article: 112805 of rec.gardens
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From: lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: 9 Mar 1996 16:01:46 GMT
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In <4hphn2$e64_001@slip.digex.net.acy.digex.net> mariannd@acy.digex.net
(Mariann Davis) writes: 

<<<large snip>>>
-------- original post from Mariann Davis -------------------
>Julie/lizard3/Gad Zukes,
> 
>Thanks for your response. Your quote agreed with my point: 
>"..much or all of the rest is returned...when residues are plowed
down."
>(Although it seems like unclear writing to say "much is A, and much or
all 
>of the rest is B", don't you think?)
>
>The two statements I want to know more about are: 
>1st paragraph (Rodale):  "Much of this is stored in the soil,"
>2nd paragraph (you):     "and add it to the soil,"
>
>This does sound like the plant is secreting or excreting the nitrogen
>into the soil. How does it do this?  Does it then follow that over a
>period of time, the nitrogen in the soil will build up to a more
>normal level (in soils that started out nitrogen-poor, then legumes
>were planted)? 
>
>Mariann
>not a biochemist, nor do I play one on TV 

Hi Mariann - Sorry that I was not more clear. The rhizobia that
colonize the roots of legumes don't inject the nitrogen into the plant.
As far as I understand, it just changes atmospheric nitrogen into an
ion that the plant can take up from the soil. Apparently, the bacteria
are so efficient, the legumes don't use all of this ionized nitrogen,
so the nitrogen remains in the soil...held there by other chemical
reactions with the soil particles. So that is how legumes actually
"add" nitrogen to the soil. Certainly leaving the roots to decompose in
the soil adds more nitrogen (and other nutrients and organic matter),
the same thing with turning top growth into the soil (which is what you
do with a cover crop). I am not a biochemist either, but learning about
how soil works is fascinating, plus I think it made me a better
gardener (I studied it years ago). If you can find the textbook "The
Nature and Properties of Soils" by Nyle C. Brady (I think - I can't
find the book right now!), it's worth the read! Julie



From bkay1@orci.com Thu Mar 14 21:59:48 EST 1996
Article: 113282 of rec.gardens
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From: bkay1@orci.com (B.K.)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 06:00:39 GMT
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>Julie writes:
>It is known that legumes fix nitrogen from the air and add it to the
>soil.

>>Marianne wrote:
>>This does sound like the plant is secreting or excreting the nitrogen into 
>>the soil. How does it do this? 

The plant itself does not fix nitrogen.  It is the nitrogen fixing
bacteria which you seem to be in question of.  These organisms have a
symbiotic relationship with leguminous crops, and a few others. They
live in root nodules(those black balls on the legume roots).The
bacteria fixate atmospheric nitrogen(around 75% of the plants N needs)
and provide it to the plant, and the plant provides
nutrients/environment for the bacteria.  

Using legumes as a Companion Crop:
Though some nitrogen is excreted into the soil, probably by excreting
amino acids and nitrogenous compunds, grazing or cutting off the plant
tops will release nitrogen into the soil and make it available for the
companion crop.  Other nitrogen can be released by small pieces of
root which die off and decompose.

For Crop Rotations:
The entire legume can be tilled into the soil at the end of its'
growing season.  The soil microbes decompose the plant into nutrients
which become available to the following crop.  

Hope that helps.
B. K.








From dplatt@ntg.com Thu Mar 14 22:02:22 EST 1996
Article: 113420 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: dplatt@ntg.com (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: what good is the ability to "fix" nitrogen?
Message-ID: <1996Mar13.232046.5250@3do.com>
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:20:46 GMT
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In article <4hn1sb$e5o_002@slip.digex.net.acy.digex.net> mariannd@acy.digex.net (Mariann Davis) writes:
>But, the soil *remains* poor in nitrogen unless the nitrogen, which came 
>from the air but is now in the plant's tissues, is somehow returned to the 
>*soil* by letting the plant return _itself_ to the soil by rotting. The 
>plant does not somehow "excrete" (for want of a better term!) into the soil 
>the nitrogen it has acquired, does it? 

There's probably a small amount of excretion of fixed nitrogen, but I
understand it's only a small fraction of the amount actually produced.
The majority of the fixed nitrogen is used by the plant, in its leaves
and stems during the early portion of the growth season and then in seed
production.

>                                 So therefore, grow a legume, at the 
>end of the season, rip out the dead plants and put them somewhere else 
>(compost bin or landfill, whatever), and you have not done one good thing 
>for that soil???!  Correct or not?   Similarly, plant a non-legume cozily 
>next to a legume in nitrogen-poor soil, and the non-legume will STILL need 
>nitrogen amendments to grow well. Correct or not?  

Basically correct, I believe.  Some amount of fixed nitrogen will remain
in the root nodules that are left in the ground after the legume is
harvested, and this will enter the soil as the roots rot away.

Legumes can be very good for the soil, nitrogen-wise, if you use them as
a "green manure".  Plant 'em, let 'em grow, and then before they set
seed, plow them under.  During the growing season, they'll help hold the
soil in place (reducing wind and water erosion, keeping the soil cool,
and encouraging the growth of a good ecology of soil microorganisms).
Once they've been plowed under, they'll decompose, returning the fixed
nitrogen in their roots and stems and leaves to the soil.  Fava beans
and alfalfa are often used in this way.
-- 
Dave Platt    dplatt@3do.com
      USNAIL: The 3DO Company, Systems Software group
              600 Galveston Drive
              Redwood City, CA  94063


From johna@tiny.me.su.oz.au Thu Mar 14 22:10:36 EST 1996
Article: 113040 of rec.gardens
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From: johna@tiny.me.su.oz.au (John Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 14:01:47
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In article <4h0d5d$71o@cloner4.netcom.com> lizard3@ix.netcom.com (Gad Zukes!) writes:

>In <4gvvug$n8m@news-1.starnet.net> BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort)
>writes: 
>>What plants can i grow in my garden that will "fix" nitrogen?  I would
>>be interested in both food crops and flowers.  The only one I can
>>remember is peanuts, and I may well be wrong.
>>
>>>Bryan Cort
>>bryanc@mpservices.com

>Hi Bryan - All legumes fix nitrogen - sweet peas, garden peas, snow
>peas, sugar snap peas, crowder peas, string beans, shell beans, dry
>beans, fava beans, scarlet runner beans, cleome (flower), and PEANUTS!!
>In addition, ground covers include clover and alfalfa. 

Also, casuarinas (sheoaks etc) fix nitrogen.  In the New Guinea 
highlands they were planted for this reason (to reinvigorate wornout 
soil), the same as legumes are elsewhere in the world (also presumably 
for firewood).  But they're no use for food and their flowers are 
pretty insignificant, so they'd be no good for you Bryan.

John


From PhyllFtL@ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 14 22:10:52 EST 1996
Article: 112225 of rec.gardens
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From: PhyllFtL@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: what plants "fix" nitrogen?
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 01:32:31 GMT
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BRYANC@MPSERVICES.COM (Bryan Cort) wrote:

>	What plants can i grow in my garden that will "fix" nitrogen?  I would
>be interested in both food crops and flowers.  The only one I can
>remember is peanuts, and I may well be wrong.


>Bryan Cort
>bryanc@mpservices.com

All plants of the family Leguminosae (Peas, beans, etc.) will fix
nitrogen if the soil is lacking in it.  Other good examples are
clover, mimosa (sensetive plant), acacia, and tropical Poincianas.
Good luck.




From hjsworc@usa1.com Thu Mar 14 22:11:09 EST 1996
Article: 110740 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: hjsworc@usa1.com
Subject: Re: Beneficial Nematodes - Inexpensive Sources?
Message-ID: <21d7cc$719f.17c@news.csra.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:23:45 GMT
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 jimlynne@tiac.net(James  Mattozzi) wrote:

>Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive beneficial nematode for grubs?

>I have the Gardens Alive catalog and their prices seem expensive.  Am I 
>correct or are their prices inline?

>				Thanks,
>					Jim  

I spent about $15.00 at a local nursery last year for 200 grams of
Bio-Safe, if that's any help.

Harold




From mobabbb@utkvx.utk.edu Thu Mar 14 22:11:23 EST 1996
Article: 110799 of rec.gardens
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From: mobabbb@utkvx.utk.edu (Meredith Morris-Babb)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Beneficial Nematodes - Inexpensive Sources?
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 18:33:29 GMT
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> jimlynne@tiac.net(James  Mattozzi) wrote:
>
>>Can anyone recommend a good, inexpensive beneficial nematode for grubs?
>
>>I have the Gardens Alive catalog and their prices seem expensive.  Am I 
>>correct or are their prices inline?
>
>>                               Thanks,
In Article <21d7cc$719f.17c@news.csra.net>, hjsworc@usa1.com wrote:>        
Jim  
>
>I spent about $15.00 at a local nursery last year for 200 grams of
>Bio-Safe, if that's any help.


You can also get it at your local pet food store.  the same nematodes that
work on flea eggs and larvae work wonders in the garden.

meredith, East TN, Zone 7, USA


From london@.unc.edu Thu Mar 14 22:12:32 EST 1996
Article: 113679 of rec.gardens
Path: newz.oit.unc.edu!!london
From: london@.unc.edu (Larry London)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: What other newsgroups for gardeners on netscape?
Date: 15 Mar 1996 02:09:15 GMT
Organization: SunSITE at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill
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References: <4gvqgf$o3d@mailgate.bridgewater.ne.hcc.com> <4h00ih$fk4@panix2.panix.com> <4h23d9$1i2@cronkite.d48.lilly.com>
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In article <4h23d9$1i2@cronkite.d48.lilly.com>,
Shellie Welch  <Shellie@lilly.com> wrote:
>I also noticed a gardening newsgroup in the "Triangle" newsgroup.  I 
>suspect it has to do with the area around the N. Carolina Research 
>Triangle (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill.)

That's the triangle.gardens newsgroup.

:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
london@sunSITE.unc.edu, london@mercury.interpath.net
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/The_Sustainable_Farmstead.html
http://www.interpath.net/~london 
Organic Gardening, CSA & Permaculture Information
Gardening FAQs:
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture
      /gardening/gardening-faqs/
:



From wd@martin.cs.swt.edu Fri Mar 15 22:41:25 EST 1996
Article: 111159 of rec.gardens
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From: wd@martin.cs.swt.edu (Wilbon Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: web site: Flowers(gingers & helicona's
Date: 1 Mar 1996 15:47:15 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Southwest Texas State University
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R Brooks (KDLE87A@prodigy.com) wrote:
: Are their any web sites on the on the flowers gingers and heliconas?
: 

Try Southern Perennials and Herbs which can be reached via GardenWeb at
www.gardenweb.com.

Their illustrated catalog is online and orders can be placed using the net.
They have the biggest selection of gingers I've seen, including nurseries in
Hawaii.

-Wilbon Davis
1wd01@swt.edu



From chapman@premier.net Fri Mar 15 22:42:41 EST 1996
Article: 111430 of rec.gardens
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From: "Timothy S. Chapman" <chapman@premier.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: web site: Flowers(gingers & helicona's
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 17:32:45 -0600
Organization: Premier One
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Wilbon Davis wrote:
> 
> R Brooks (KDLE87A@prodigy.com) wrote:
> : Are their any web sites on the on the flowers gingers and heliconas?
> :
> 
> Try Southern Perennials and Herbs which can be reached via GardenWeb at
> www.gardenweb.com.
> 
> Their illustrated catalog is online and orders can be placed using the net.
> They have the biggest selection of gingers I've seen, including nurseries in
> Hawaii.
> 
> -Wilbon Davis
> 1wd01@swt.edu

I missed the first post, but if you are looking for pictures of 
gingers and Heliconias, check out my site at 
http://www.premier.net/~chapman/home.html  I have a ginger page, an 
aroid page, and also a page for the Zingiberales (relatives of 
gingers including Heliconia, etc.)

I will be updating the page with some more Thai ginger pictures, and 
hopefully some more Heliconia and Calathea photos in the near 
future.

Tim Chapman chapman@premier.net


From ealbrook@lewiston.com Fri Mar 15 22:43:03 EST 1996
Article: 112255 of rec.gardens
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From: Liz Albrook <ealbrook@lewiston.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: web site: Flowers(gingers & helicona's
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 14:48:10 -0600
Organization: Angst Online
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Kevin Cox wrote:
> 
> >Are their any web sites on the on the flowers gingers and heliconas?
> 
> The only one I've seen so far is:
> http://www.premier.net/~chapman/home.html
> 

Do a Yahoo search and there is a web page that turns up called something 
along the lines of Southern Gardens.  It's an online catalogue located 
somewhere in Mississippi (Tyler?).  Lots of gingers there.

Liz


From lkallus@earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 22:46:58 EST 1996
Article: 111241 of rec.gardens
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From: Lester Kallus <lkallus@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Landscape Design Multimedia for Gardens
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 01:38:27 -0500
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The program does what you want.  I bought it and am relatively happy 
with that function.  I do have a few problems with it:

1.  The list of shrubs is very limited

2.  The view of the garden by definition has to be from outside the 
yard.  If you have a lot of trees on the periphery of your yard and then 
click on the 3D view, all you can see is the trees.  I just wish they 
added a view point from the center of the yard.

3.  You can add slopes but you can't add a retaining wall.  I have a few 
stone retaining walls in my yard and can't view them.

Otherwise, I like the program and look forward to their upgrades.
       Les


From lniven@direct.ca Fri Mar 15 22:48:03 EST 1996
Article: 111243 of rec.gardens
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From: lniven@direct.ca (larry niven)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Plant and Garden Photo's on the WWW
Date: 1 Mar 1996 19:17:41 GMT
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I have some plant and garden photographs posted on my photo gallery www
page. People are welcome to look at the pictures. The address is
http://web.idirect.com/~jln


From jeason@midway.uchicago.edu Fri Mar 15 22:48:21 EST 1996
Article: 111265 of rec.gardens
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Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
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jay wrote:
> 
> do i really need a moist enviroment to grow rice?
> 
> thanks

Yes, you do need moisture. Lots of it.

There's an interesting discussion of rice in "On Food and Cooking", 
a book by an author whose name escapes me at the moment, Harold 
something or other. I'd be willing to bet that my old stand-by (not 
at hand) Wyman's also discusses it.


From jeason@midway.uchicago.edu Fri Mar 15 22:49:29 EST 1996
Article: 112056 of rec.gardens
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From: James Eason <jeason@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
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Cathy wrote:
> 
> I have a wet area on my land.  Do rice plants look nice?
> (I can't remember, don't they look sort of like wheat?)
> 
> Hmmm.  Maybe I'll try that over there.
> 
> - Cathy
My memory of rice plants (seeing them from a distance while whizzing 
by on the interstate) is that they're green. They look like grass. 
They are totally and absolutely uninteresting, unless you're a rice 
farmer.

I have done a little digging (so to speak). Most modern rice 
varieties (it's unclear to me whether the original species still 
exist(s)) require standing water to germinate. They require some 
moving water around their roots to live, because their roots 
apparently can get oxygen only from moving water. Even 
mountain-grown rice, alleged by connoisseurs to be better, is grown 
in terraces that hold water. If you have a small shallow pond (3 
inches or so to a foot it looks like in the pictures), and don't 
want to grow any of the marvellous petastites and gunneras and 
ligularias and rodgersias, not to mention water hyacinth, water 
lilies, irises, sedges, lobelias, cat-tails, forget-me-nots, 
primulas and other things that love a bit of a bog, go ahead!

BTW, modern rice fields in the US are apparently sown with tiny 
plants by airplane. Sounds cool to me: no more digging.....


From ashirl@sat.net Fri Mar 15 22:51:19 EST 1996
Article: 113086 of rec.gardens
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From: George Shirley <ashirl@sat.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:52:16 -0800
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James Eason wrote:
> 
> Cathy wrote:
> >
> > I have a wet area on my land.  Do rice plants look nice?
> > (I can't remember, don't they look sort of like wheat?)
> >
> > Hmmm.  Maybe I'll try that over there.
> >
> > - Cathy
> My memory of rice plants (seeing them from a distance while whizzing
> by on the interstate) is that they're green. They look like grass.
> They are totally and absolutely uninteresting, unless you're a rice
> farmer.
> 
> I have done a little digging (so to speak). Most modern rice
> varieties (it's unclear to me whether the original species still
> exist(s)) require standing water to germinate. They require some
> moving water around their roots to live, because their roots
> apparently can get oxygen only from moving water. Even
> mountain-grown rice, alleged by connoisseurs to be better, is grown
> in terraces that hold water. If you have a small shallow pond (3
> inches or so to a foot it looks like in the pictures), and don't
> want to grow any of the marvellous petastites and gunneras and
> ligularias and rodgersias, not to mention water hyacinth, water
> lilies, irises, sedges, lobelias, cat-tails, forget-me-nots,
> primulas and other things that love a bit of a bog, go ahead!
> 
> BTW, modern rice fields in the US are apparently sown with tiny
> plants by airplane. Sounds cool to me: no more digging.....


Unless they've changed the way they do it the airplanes are actually 
dropping seed, then fertilizer, then pesticides, then herbicides.  I 
still have pesticide spots on my lungs from waving off the crop dusters 
at the tree line as a kid.  The farmer shoots levels on his rice field 
(at least in Texas and Louisiana)with a laser transit, brings in the air 
conditioned tractors and harrows, levels it with a slight drop to the 
outflow canal side, then puts up his dikes, floods the field, and calls 
for the airplanes.  California, I believe, leads in U.S. rice production 
followed by Texas, Louisiana, and Arkansas, not necessarily in that 
order.  I can still look at a field of rice growing and tell you how much 
gravy it will take to cover the crop.


From orchids@communique.net Fri Mar 15 22:54:28 EST 1996
Article: 113196 of rec.gardens
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From: orchids@communique.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:14:36 GMT
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James Eason <jeason@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

>Cathy wrote:
>> 
>> I have a wet area on my land.  Do rice plants look nice?
>> (I can't remember, don't they look sort of like wheat?)
>> 
>> Hmmm.  Maybe I'll try that over there.
>> 
>> - Cathy
>My memory of rice plants (seeing them from a distance while whizzing 
>by on the interstate) is that they're green. They look like grass. 
>They are totally and absolutely uninteresting, unless you're a rice 
>farmer.

You've been away from Louisiana too long, James. Or maybe you just
didn't get close enough to the rice fields to see individuals. Rice
can be quite beautiful, particularly when it is blooming or fruiting.

>I have done a little digging (so to speak). Most modern rice 
>varieties (it's unclear to me whether the original species still 
>exist(s)) require standing water to germinate. They require some 
>moving water around their roots to live, because their roots 
>apparently can get oxygen only from moving water. 

No, rice doesn't require standing water to germinate. I speak from
experience. One year a friend brought me several bales of rice straw.
We used the straw that winter to make a star-gazing bed that kept us
warm when we burrowed into it and lay on our backs to watch the stars.
That next Spring I moved the straw to other garden areas, and the rice
seed that remained produced a beautiful stand of plants. We eventually
harvested several paper sacks of grain, all without flooding or
paddies.

The main reason that Louisiana farmers flood their rice fields for
part of the season is to keep competition from other plants down. Rice
can stand water-logged soils, but most 'weeds' cannot.

As for the 'original species', there are many species or forms
(taxonimists are an argumentative group) still in existence in
southeast Asia. There is even one kind that grows (wild) in several
feet of water in bays and is harvested from boats!

I would certainly never recommend that anyone use all (or even most)
of their pond or wetland space for growing rice, but I do think the
plant lovely enough to deserve more consideration than it usually
gets. A pot or two, strategically placed, can add grace to any garden.

Harold
Covington, LA
USDA Zone 8B




From bae@oci.utoronto.ca Fri Mar 15 22:55:08 EST 1996
Article: 111968 of rec.gardens
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From: bae@oci.utoronto.ca (Beverly Erlebacher)
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
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In article <4hipl9$lss@panix.com> mbm@panix.com (Marion Margoshes) writes:
>
>Where are you geographically?  I would love to see rice growing in Maine, 
>or even in 
>Chicago!!!! mbm 

About 20 years ago, when Johnny's Seeds was just starting, they offered
a northern Japanese rice that they managed to grow in Maine.  

A couple of years ago Organic Gardening magazine had a cover story on
backyard rice growing.

One of these years I'm gonna grow rice in a bucket on the patio...

Beverly Erlebacher
Toronto, Ontario Canada
USDA Z5b AgCan Z6b



From RLouisBesse@linknet.net Fri Mar 15 22:55:33 EST 1996
Article: 111992 of rec.gardens
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From: RLouisBesse@linknet.net (R Louis Besse)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
Date: 4 Mar 1996 21:42:55 GMT
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But, surprisingly, rice does not need to be grown in paddies 
of standing water.

I read a book a while back about a Japanese organic gardener 
who didn't use standing water, but I've forgotten the name.  
Since then, there have been Japanese agricultural experts 
down here (Louisiana) advising the rice farmers how it's 
done.

The problem with not using paddies, however, is this: where 
are you gonna raise your crawfish? :-)

- RL         (RLouisBesse@linknet.net)
"We possess only this moment in which to continuously 
dedicate ourselves to the sacred presence which we share and 
create."



From mahrne@csd.uu.se Fri Mar 15 22:57:00 EST 1996
Article: 112319 of rec.gardens
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From: Marianne Ahrne <mahrne@csd.uu.se>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
Date: 7 Mar 1996 12:13:32 GMT
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James Eason <jeason@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>jay wrote:
>> 
>> do i really need a moist enviroment to grow rice?
>> 
>> thanks
>
>Yes, you do need moisture. Lots of it.
>

What about Japanese dry paddy? Not that I know anything about it,
but in my salad days I worked as a volunteer with slash-and-burn
cultivation in Sri Lanka (Ceylon then), helping a Japanese agronomist
to clear land for "dry paddy", although we planted onions first. 
I didn't stay long enough to see how much water would be needed for
the rice. There was a serious water shortage in the area, but it
could be flooded by means of a 1000 year old irrigation system at least
in some seasons, but would never give standing water.

Marianne Ahrne
Uppsala, Sweden




From bcarter@awinc.com Fri Mar 15 22:57:26 EST 1996
Article: 112942 of rec.gardens
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From: bcarter@awinc.com (Bob Carter)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: rice, what is the key to growing this?
Date: 11 Mar 1996 20:37:45 GMT
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A while back Organic Gardening magazine had an article on growing rice and they
said that while rice does need a moist environment.  Flooding was mainly done to
reduce weed competition.  Also a properly weeded and tended unflooded patch
would actually yeild higher than its flooded counterpart.

   ____________________
  |                    |
  |    Helene Carter   | Kootenay Bay, BC, Canada
  |  bcarter@awinc.com | Zone 6b
  |____________________|



From michael@helium Fri Mar 15 22:58:33 EST 1996
Article: 111649 of rec.gardens
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From: michael@helium (Michael Courtney)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Keeping deer out of the garden
Date: 4 Mar 1996 12:37:00 GMT
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
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SKID Photography (zuffalig@nyc.pipeline.com) wrote:
: In article <327cc$2202c.390@news.questar.com>, David Penksa writes: 
:  
: >After two successful years of city gardening, I moved into an area that is
:  
: >frequented by deer quite regularly.  Would appreciate any info as far as  
: >keeping them out of the garden and vegetables they will not eat. Thanks 
: > 
: > 
: > 
: Dear David, 
:  
: Deer EAT EVERYTHING!!!!!  This subject has been discussed (and no doubt
: will continue to be discussed) at great length.  The concensus seems to be
: that the ONLY thing that really works reliably is a 10 foot tall fence,
: surrounding the entire property.......really. 
:  
:  
: zuffalig/SKID  zone 6  CT 


I just got a three year old doberman pinscer who I hope to station by the
garden.  He seems to have a taste for venison as evidenced by his turning
a 1.5" diameter deer bone into small bone fragments in a manner of minutes.
Serious power.  I don't think he will be able to catch an adult deer, but
do you think deer will approach a garden guarded by a doberman?

Has anyone tried this approach?

--
Michael Courtney     
michael@amo.mit.edu  
                     
                    


From jrwoodworth@mmm.com Fri Mar 15 22:58:46 EST 1996
Article: 112040 of rec.gardens
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From: jrwoodworth@mmm.com (John Woodworth)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Keeping deer out of the garden
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:27:53 -0600
Organization: 3M - St. Paul, MN  55144-1000 US
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Michael Courtney wrote:

> I just got a three year old doberman pinscer who I hope to station by the
> garden.  He seems to have a taste for venison as evidenced by his turning
> a 1.5" diameter deer bone into small bone fragments in a manner of minutes.
> Serious power.  I don't think he will be able to catch an adult deer, but
> do you think deer will approach a garden guarded by a doberman?
> 
> Has anyone tried this approach?

It will work fine only if your dog is always there and is untethered. Otherwise 
the deer learn your dog is not really a danger to them.

I suggest encouraging wolves.

-- 

John

"Pro meo lingua graeca est!"

Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of 3M.


From dennis@borg.com Fri Mar 15 22:59:22 EST 1996
Article: 113207 of rec.gardens
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From: dennis@borg.com (Dennis Mathiasen)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Keeping deer out of the garden
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:20:02 GMT
Organization: Borg
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For over 10 years I had two dogs running mostly unsupervised around my
property, and never ever saw a deer.  My neighbors about 2,000 feet
away across a deep ravine complained bitterly about the boldness and
damage the deer did, and finally put up an electrified fence.

Now the dogs have been gone for two years and the deer come up to the
front door.  They even strip yucca plants which are supposed to be
very deer resistant.

I suspect that they might figure out that a tethered dog is no threat
however.

DM
michael@helium (Michael Courtney) wrote:

>PATTIBELLE (pattibelle@delphi.com) wrote:
>: PA> do you think deer will approach a garden guarded by a doberman?
>:  
>: Yes, at night when you keep the Doberman inside so its barking doesn't drive
>: your neighbors up the wall!
>:  
>: Pat

>Neighbors are far enough away not to hear.

>--
>Michael Courtney     
>michael@amo.mit.edu  
>                     
>                    




From mkosiak@analysts.com Fri Mar 15 23:01:08 EST 1996
Article: 111667 of rec.gardens
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From: martin kosiak <mkosiak@analysts.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Keeping deer out of the garden Field & Stream tip!!
Date: 4 Mar 1996 16:30:54 GMT
Organization: Nando.net Public Access
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Latest issue of field & stream says to put fishing line at the 4ft 5ft 
6ft level.

The deer will walk into the fishing line, but they WILL not jump over 
something they cannot see!!!

Which is why fencing is not really a solution because deer can see the 
fence.

Martin Kosiak




From schaem@velo.asd.sgi.com Fri Mar 15 23:02:11 EST 1996
Article: 111675 of rec.gardens
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From: schaem@velo.asd.sgi.com (Greg Schaem)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Keeping deer out of the garden Field & Stream tip!!
Date: 4 Mar 1996 18:42:04 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mountain View, CA
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In article <4hf5ru$g1l@castle.nando.net>, martin kosiak
<mkosiak@analysts.com> writes:
|> Latest issue of field & stream says to put fishing line at the 4ft 5ft 
|> 6ft level.
|> 
|> The deer will walk into the fishing line, but they WILL not jump over 
|> something they cannot see!!!
|> 
|> Which is why fencing is not really a solution because deer can see the 
|> fence.
|> 
|> Martin Kosiak
|> 
|> 

Last year I put up a fishing wire fence around my garden.  It kept the deer out
for almost a month.  It was only 5 1/2 feet high.  It always seems to come down
to an 8 ft. or taller fence, or maybe a slanted inward fence - everything else 
only works temporarily.


Greg


From Laura_McNamara@sfa.ufl.edu Fri Mar 15 23:04:53 EST 1996
Article: 111722 of rec.gardens
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From: Laura McNamara <Laura_McNamara@sfa.ufl.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Book Advice Sought
Date: 4 Mar 1996 16:16:18 GMT
Organization: U of Fla-Student Financial Affairs
Lines: 25
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

---------------------------------13333104211977
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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I like "Park's Success with Seeds" which you can find in used books 
stores once in awhile.  It's pretty specific in its directions.


---------------------------------13333104211977
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN

I need a comprehensive resource on growing flowers from seed, or on flower
propagation in general.  The Fragrant Path seed company recommends How to
Grow Flowers from Seeds, by Elvin McDonald.  Does anyone know of this or
any other good references? 

Thanks from,

Nancy
Zone 5  SE Iowa

---------------------------------13333104211977--


From frg@nyc.pipeline.com Fri Mar 15 23:07:42 EST 1996
Article: 111507 of rec.gardens
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From: frg@nyc.pipeline.com (chuck schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Natural.Net
Date: 3 Mar 1996 18:13:50 -0500
Organization: Field Resource Group
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March 2, 1996 
 
Dear Natural Foods and Health Internet User: 
 
We are presently building a significant World Wide Web site focused on
natural foods,  health and the environment.  Natural.Net, which will be
located on a server capable of over one million "hits" per day when
operational in May of this year,  will be a natural foods, health and
environmental information resource located on the Internet.  Natural.Net
will provide information about every natural foods, health and
environmental store, restaurant, product, service, organization, supplier,
grower and event in North America as well as offering other interesting and
useful content.  
 
Natural.Net will consist of these on-line resources and components: 
 
- North America Natural Foods Store Locator and Guide 
- North America Natural Foods Restaurant Locator and Guide 
- North America Organic Growers Locator and Guide 
- North America Natural Foods Manufacturer and Suppliers Locator and Guide 
- Natural Health Services Locator and Guide 
- Natural Products Locator 
- "Green / Environmentally Friendly" Products Locator 
- Natural Community and Charitable Organization Pages  
- Natural Events Calendar 
- Natural Products Press Release Listings 
- Natural.Net Electronic Magazine  
- Natural.Net Shareware Software Area 
- Natural Life Classified Ads 
 
 
How can you help us make Natural.Net an even better resource for the
natural foods and health community?  There are a number of ways: 
- Let us know what you think.  Natural.Net is an evolving entity which will
grow as the Internet grows. We take your ideas and thoughts very seriously.

- Help us improve the accuracy of our listings.  Every Natural Foods ,
Health and Environmental Store, Restaurant, Grower, Manufacturer and
Supplier in North America will be listed on the Natural.Net World Wide Web
site.  Our initial listings are drawn from databases and yellow pages
files.  As such, there may be some errors or inconsistencies in the data. 
Please send us updated information about your natural company and
organization or those that you know so we can be sure to keep our listings
current and more complete. 
- Consider having space for your company, service or organization on
Natural.Net.  While address/telephone number listings are no charge, a fee
must be applied to larger  listings, links, classified ads or web pages on
Natural.Net. These fees cover the costs associated with  the powerful
computer hardware, manpower, internet communications services and bandwidth
that Natural.Net has.  Please let us know of your interest and we'll be
happy to send you more information or call you. 
- Send us information about your organization. Charitable organizations
focused on natural foods, health and the environment will receive free
descriptive listings on Natural.Net 
- Send us information about your company or group's natural foods or health
event for listing in Natural.Net's events calendar web pages. 
- Send us copies of press releases about your company, organization or
products for our Natural Products Press Release area. 
- Have you written any articles about natural foods, holistic health or the
environment?  Submit them to the Natural.Net Electronic Magazine editor. 
If suitable we will publish them.  
 
We appreciate your time and look forward to hearing from you soon. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Please Note: We are waiting for formal assignment of the  domain name for
Natural.Net.  Until then,  we are holding off placing  publicly accessible
web pages onto our server.  As soon as the URL is available we will let you
know so you can come and take a look. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
Chuck Schwartz 
Field Resource Group 
Post Office Box 219,  Glenwood Landing  NY 11547  
(516) 759-7074  /  (516) 759-5746  fax 
frg@pipeline.com e mail 
 
 


From rossde@acm.org Thu May  8 00:01:30 EDT 1997
Article: 192348 of rec.gardens
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From: David Ross <rossde@acm.org>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: IRC Channel about Gardening?
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 23:53:30 -0700
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Mara wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if an IRC channel for Gardening exists? I'd love to
> chat with other gardeners about stuff!
> 
> If there isn't a channel...would anyone be interested if I created one
> on Efnet?

Try #AggieGardens on DALnet (limited hours) and #Gardening on Undernet.  

-- 
David Ross
Climate:  California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6727
(I keep changing it, so visit again.)


From qwasluss@ptd.net Thu May  8 00:01:40 EDT 1997
Article: 192687 of rec.gardens
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From: "Gary Slusser" <qwasluss@ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: IRC Channel about Gardening?
Date: 5 May 1997 01:44:18 GMT
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Mara - go to http://www.albany.net/~gardmart/cafe1 for live gardening chat
at GardenTown.  There's also a cafe2 and two message boards SageHall and
Gazebo.  I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.  The message boards are
the most active I've ever seen and the chat is made up of some terrific
people.......Linda (let me know what you think)



