Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm) (fwd)

From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:53:37 -0500 (EST)

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden
/permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech
[email-masked]  [email-masked]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Lawrence F. London, Jr. -+|+- Venaura Farm
[email-masked]   [email-masked]
http://metalab.unc.edu/london, /permaculture, /ecolandtech
EcoLandTech -+|+- InterGarden -+|+- Permaculture
-
Frank asked for ideas on pond building. Maybe we can start a thread on
this, if anyone is interested. My feedback is below.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: [email-masked]
> In center of pond area is small elevated island with a few trees that I'd 
> like to keep. How do you suggest we build this pond for wildlife, native
> plantings, irrigation etc.?
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1) Get a copy of Mollison's A Designer's Manual
2) The pond's edge should be crenelated, i.e. undulating, zigzag,
ragged, ["lobular embayments" is a term Mollison uses on P.78 of DM] 
rather than a smooth continous curve. See pps. 481-483 of DM on
"pond configuration and edge effects".
3) Where runoff runs into pond construct a slightly graduated slope with
different sized pebbles, rocks, gravel, sand - this could become an
area where shellfish could breed - though usually flowing water is
necessary - just a thought - maybe divert flow from a creek in and out of
the pond
4) Construct shallow, boggy, swampy areas for breeding grounds for aquatic
creatures - plant reeds, cattails and other shallow water aquatic plants
there (will provide cover for wildlife) 
5) Make sure you construct areas where the water is shallow to semi
shallow with rocks, sandbars, etc. for turtles and amphibians, esp. frogs
6) You want to be sure you have fertile ground at water's edge - so you'll
get lush plant growth, weeds, plantings, etc. This is essential for
wildlife feeding, breeding and cover, and shade in summer and erosion
control, and nutrient catchment and filtering

LL

'Every day the intelligent person learns something new, but every day
the wise person gives up some certainty'    The Buddha.

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:54:17 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:29:21 +1000
From: April Sampson-Kelly <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

my major concerns from my pond experiences are:
1. an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed
2. not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have
proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises and
platypus)
so, i would build a small barrier that caught only large downpours and
allowed the continued flow through of daily or weekly rains.
3. trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.
our ducks are only suitable for the spring fed pond, they seem to have the
instinct to excete as soon as they get wet.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Monday, 2 August 1999 1:16
> To: permaculture
> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> [email-masked]
>
>

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:55:40 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:37:32 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

G'day Darren,

Oops ...I hit the send now button before I finished the last post ...sorry!

<<This can only be
overcome if the dam is large enough for exit and entry batters from the
island to shore to bottom out to a level close to the maximum.>> Oh, oh..I'm 
afraid I'm out of my depth :) on this. Please enlighten me further.

<<What we prefer to do on dams less than 5 Ml is to make penisulas instead.>> 
What size is <<5 Ml>> ?  The total pond area is about 1 acre with a depth of 
8'3" in middle. also like gentle slopes along edges.  What do you think?

<<"pond configuration and edge effects".

Its OK to try and do this however you are limited by 2 things: the
landscape/shape and money. I would love to do all of those idealised edge
features but at $150/hr its often difficult to do to a budget.>>  This has 
got to be a relatively low budget affair...or it's not going to happen.  So 
how do we control the costs?

<<We would use a dozer to make
most dams and they are capable of creating flowing linear edges.>>  Would a 
loader be better than a dozer? The xcavator would do the work...he 's done a 
lot of farm ponds. Charge is $70 an hr...claims he could dig it in a day? Is 
that possible? Seems like a lot of dirt, shaping, top soil moving etc. for an 
acre. I don't have a clue:)

<<If the dam is of a fairly decent size (ie. 5Ml +) then their is
usually enough edge area for a dozer to cut out well battered curves.>>  ?????

<<we need to speculate all options though to return back to the
what's possible - a point often missed....>>  Agreed!

<<Very possible however needs consideration of the flood flow rates to develop
sustainable engineered widths/depths>> How does one determine these flow 
rates which are probably contingent on rainfall off the steeply forested 
ridges at the back of the pond site? And what are sustainably engineered 
widths?

<<I find it better to develop drainage
depression into forestry/wetland systems so that we don't have water running
over bare ground and for nutrient/sediment trapping,>>  This is actually what 
is happening now as water flows through various drainage ways and channels to 
creek, wet land areas. Some areas have lots of crawfish...good sized. What 
happens when water dries up..do crawfish die out or can they survive in their 
holes?

<<Sometimes where we have to take out large trees to construct a dam we will
push them out prior to topsoil stripping then push them back into the dam
where they will provide multiple functions.>>  We won't need to take out any 
trees in the pond area...but if it's desireable I have plenty of downed 
trees, and limbs piled up nearby. Please describe how to use them effectively.

<<By having topsoil stripped as a starting point and then pushing it back over
the excavated areas you will get vegetation coming back after the first few
rains. Also try and make the water level so that it comes onto unexcavated
grass, so that you get shallows/wetlands that resemble a ephemeral
floodplain.>>  Yup:)

Great post, and insights Darren. Thanks. Look forward to executing this.  
When I get back to NY and learn how to use a scanner I'll scan some pictures 
for the group.

Look forward to continuing thread. Should be a great FAQ for anyone building 
a PC farm pond.  Best to all.   Cheers.  Frank

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:56:02 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:03:07 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RE: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Hello April,

Thanks for the input.

<<an allowance for flood (the overflow must be well designed>>  Granted...but 
how?

<<not to alter the natural flow of a water system (the daming of creeks
here have proven to destroy habitat for native species such as our tortoises 
and
platypus)>> I'm not damming any creeks.  Just trying to catch the water off 
the ridges for multi-use at a later date.  Rather than have too much water in 
spring...not enough later.  Else it all flows out the creeks, off the 
property. 

<<trouble with our farmed ducks and wild yabbies destroying the water
quality and seal.>>  hmm...I was contemplating a few ducks...should i skip 
'em?

Appreciate the feedback.   Cheerio  Frank

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:56:31 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 [email-masked] wrote:

> Ok how about the construction of the dam and the overflow conduits?   Where 
> is the best place to put the dam...in center of lower end..or does it even 
> matter?

Regarding the outflow counduit - whatever design you use, the (possibly)
nutrient-rich overflow can be especially well utilized to irrigate and
fertilize a planting of lespedeza, through which it runs as it
dissipates over the back side of the dam. Lespedeza is an amazing plant. I
suggest it as a catchment and erosion control plant because it is very
drought resistant and will grow lavishly in hard rocky ground, the type of
fill that might be used in the dam itself. I can personally vouch for all
of the above. I have it growing (I planted it from seed a few years ago)
on a semi-steep embankment. Some of the plants are bushes, nearly 4 feet
tall with a huge spread. It benefits from nitrogen-rich runoff from the
field above which has big piles of compost. This planting has outcompeted
all nearby plants, Johnson grass, tall fescue, wild blackberries and
Japanese honeysuckle.

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:56:53 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 [email-masked] wrote:

> I really don't intend the island to be very large...perhaps only 10*15' with 
> irregular gently sloping sides?  Is that size OK? would you need to make it 
> larger? for other reasons? 

Instead of the island, which Darren says might compromise the integrity
of the pond design you could build a few large floating rafts as planters
(hydroponic) for growing certain crops. Great for some wildlife wishing to
languish in the sun or have better vantage point for catching insects for
food. There is literature describing construction and maintenance of these
floating, harvestable gardens. 

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:59:08 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:28:58 +0200
From: georg <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

>dissipates over the back side of the dam. Lespedeza is an amazing plant.

and if it lespedeza bicolor you can eat sprigtips, seeds and flowers, or
coppice every few years for excellent firewood

*

georg

********
follow your heart -
it is the only way to heaven on earth.. .  .
******************* * * *  *   *    *      *         *

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:00:23 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:41:34 -0700
From: John Abdon <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Here's where I'm brushing up. How about your links?

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/ Center for Aquatic and Invasive Plants,
University of Florida

http://aquat1.ifas.ufl.edu/database.html Aquatic, Wetland and Invasive Plant
Information Retrieval System, University of Florida

http://pclt.cis.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1992/5/92.05.07.x.html
Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute 'Pond Ecology' tutorial.

http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/biores/pond.htm Pond Ecology Resources.
(http://telematics.ex.ac.uk/pondex/intro.htm is slow loading)

    `\\\\\\\\|||/
      (@@)            johnAbdon  [email-masked]
ooO_(_)_Ooo___________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 8:16 PM
Subject: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

> You are currently subscribed to permaculture as: [email-masked]

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:04:44 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:44:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Lawrence F. London, Jr. -+|+- Venaura Farm
[email-masked]   [email-masked]
http://metalab.unc.edu/london, /permaculture, /ecolandtech
EcoLandTech -+|+- InterGarden -+|+- Permaculture
-----------------------------------------------
Go here for upload/view/download of docs & pix:
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
-----------------------------------------------

On Tue, 3 Aug 1999 [email-masked] wrote:

> In a message dated 8/3/99 4:13:50 AM, [email-masked] writes:
> 
> <<Lespedeza is an amazing plant.>>  Hmmm...is lespedeza also a nitrogen 
> fixing legume...can't recall for sure. Also can it be utilized as pasture for 
> cattle as part of a grazing mix?

It is a legume and fixes nitrogen, reseeds itself and becomes permanently
established this way and through root division. Very drought resistant,
shades ground well. Again, an amazing plant. I think the variety I planted
was Sericea Lespedeza. The farm supply companies usually have several
varieties, some shorter, for mowing and baleing.
  
> What kind od seed/variety did you plant? How much seed per acre? How did you 
> sow it? How do you plant it into existing pasture/weed ground?

Just broadcast it or drill it - make sure it gets planted at the right
depth, i.e. shallow, I think. It will take a while to become established
but will eventually outcompete nearly everything else. A very valuable
plant.
 
> With acres of ground to cover what do you feel is best way to disribute the 
> overflow to ensure good even coverage? Drip system would work for high $$ 
> market garden areas, but what about pasture and small orchards?

How about irrigation ditches and occasional flooding of areas planted to
crops or trees. I was actually thinking of having a long row of small
diameter concrete or galvanized culvert pipes embedded in the ground at
shallow depth on the top of the dam (level enough to drive over or pull
carts over) the overflow would then be distributed over a wide area to
dissipate over and irrigate/fertilize the erosion-control plantings on
the dam's slopes. Water channelling using a KeyLine plow could increase
the area the water reaches - this could be redone from time to time. Just
a thought.
  
> Any other values, benefits, products from lespedeza...also can it be 
> contained fairly easily. I wouldn't want it to over run the place like kudzu 
> or purple loose strife etc.

Nothing wrong with Kudzu. Homework for you, Frank:
How to integrate kudzu into various permaculture systems on one's
property, emphazise the maintenance aspects of kudzu plantings :-)

Here's something interesting on various cover crops used for grazing:
(I have more info on organic chicken feed and cover crops at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/cover-crops
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/livestock
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/orgfarm/faqs/new-faqs
I also have a copy oif the Morrison book Feeds and Feeding mentioned
below, In case you want me to look something up.

Speaking of books and libraries, who in this list is into
collecting (hounding :-) publications on ag, landscaping, gardening,
permaculture? I'm into it in a big way and have a huge library of books
and mags. I know Scott is into this also, and I hear Bill Mollison is
also. Others?
-
-
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:20:25 -0500
From: Greg & Lei Gunthorp <[email-masked]>
Cc: sanet <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: organic chicken feed recipes.

Ladino clover is a cool season pasture component that will run the highest
levels of protein and amino acid levels (protein building blocks) of any
pasture species.  It will easily bloat ruminants if it makes up too much
of a percentage of the pasture.  

I would strongly suggest you go to the University library and pick up some
old books on poultry production.  An old Morrison Feeds and Feeding, pre
1960, would be a good place to start.  I've got several old hog production
books around here.  I used to have an old poultry production book.  The
research has already been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of various
pasture species in non-ruminant animal production.  Ladino clover was
clearly the best choice.  It might be debatable now days whether alfalfa
should be the king of pastures for chickens and hogs because a lot more
money has been spent on grazing alfalfa species.

A good non-ruminant grazing program in the midwest can be built around
clovers, alfalfa, brassicas(primarily rape), and some vegetative grass. 
Percentage reduction in feed is going to depend a lot on the quality of
pasture grown.  I've got sows that I haven't fed since January.  They
gleaned corn fields all winter and are doing just fine now on pasture.  We
are getting so dry now that I'm going to have to start feeding them.

Good luck,
Greg Gunthorp
Free Range Hog Farmer

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:55:18 -0500 (EST)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:07:42 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
To: permaculture <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pond construction ideas needed (for FranksFarm)

Hi Darren,

In a message dated 8/2/99 11:45:28 AM, [email-masked] writes:

<<that is unless you are only irrigating
a small area and have a dam that has a capacity that well exceeds this use.>> 
I hope that will be the case. I have too much water in spring running through 
and around pond area that I'd like to impound for other uses especially later 
in hot , dry summer months.

<<Another strategy is were we instruct clients to sensitively
harvest seedheads etc. of local riparian species and then simply scatter
them on the water, where eventually wave action will bring them back to
shore where they will naturally find their niche at the appropriate
water/dampness level.>> Good idea...what species would be recommended for 
southern KY ...USDA Zone 6?

<<With islands you nearly always compromise dam depth.>>  Not sure I follow 
this.  Please explain in detail. 

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