From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:22:44 1992
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:21:38" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "53" "Welcome to Social-VR!" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:21:38 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Welcome to Social-VR!

Welcome to the Social-VR mailing list, for discussions of issues related to the
development and use of social virtual realities.  This list was initiated by
the attendees of the `Future Directions in Developing Social Virtual Realities'
workshop held at the 1992 Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing
(DIAC) conference.  The initial membership of the list is as follows:

	asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu		(Amy Bruckman)
	bachrach@icsi.berkeley.edu		(Jonathan Bachrach)
	bhayes@cs.stanford.edu			(Barry Hayes)
	brad@clarinet.com			(Brad Templeton)
	burrows@brons.enet.dec.com		(Jim Burrows)
	callas@evis.enet.dec.com		(Jon Callas)
	carl@parcplace.com			(Carl Watts)
	chip@amix.com				(Chip Morningstar)
	djorenby@macc.wisc.edu			(Douglas Jorenby)
	eleveren@oracle.com			(Lefty Leverenz)
	emr@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au			(Elizabeth Reid)
	erikkay@media-lab.media.mit.edu		(Erik Kay)
	fredm@thinker.ebay.sun.com		(Fred Moulton)
	irwin@parc.xerox.com			(Susan Irwin)
	jacques@well.sf.ca.us			(Jacques Leslie)
	kevin@microworld.media.mit.edu		(Kevin McGee)
	latta@parcplace.com			(Craig Latta)
	lpress@venera.isi.edu			(Larry Press)
	pavel@parc.xerox.com			(Pavel Curtis)
	phoenixl@well.sf.ca.us			(Scott Luebking)
	piaw@peoplesparc.berkeley.edu		(Choonpiaw Na)
	randy@markets.amix.com			(Randy Farmer)
	robinson@delni.enet.dec.com		(Andrew Robinson)
	sro@media-lab.media.mit.edu		(Shawn O'Donnell)
	sturkle@media-lab.media.mit.edu		(Sherry Turkle)
	success@ucsd.edu			(Sandy Stone)
	wombat@key.amdahl.com			(Joan Eslinger)
	wright@ocf.berkeley.edu			(Matt Wright)

This list includes those who signed up at the workshop along with those who
appeared in the To: or Cc: lines of a recent set of messages begun by Amy
Bruckman; I will be sending out copies of those messages to the Social-VR list
today in order to kick-start discussion.

Submissions to the Social-VR mailing list should be sent to

		Social-VR@Xerox.Com

Requests to be added to or removed from the list should be sent to

		Social-VR-Request@Xerox.Com

I will be archiving all mail sent to the list and will make that archive
available for anonymous FTP once there's anything in it.

I look forward to as interesting and thought-provoking a conversation on this
list as we had in the workshop.

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:23:34 1992
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:22:36" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "83" "[asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: representations of violence]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:22:36 -0700
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Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: representations of violence]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Mon, 11 May 1992 12:41:51 -0700
From:	asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU
Subject: representations of violence

Is television evil?

I just got back from DIAC (Directions in Advanced Computing), a
pleasant small conference sponsored by CPSR (Computer Professionals
for Social Responsibility.)  Pavel Curtis (the developer of
LambdaMOO), organized a short workshop on future directions for MUDs.
A participant there argued that VR evil because tv is evil and VR is
like tv.  He was not making the tired arguement about activity and
passivity; let's assume for the purposes of this discussion that we
all agree that tv viewers are active readers.  His arguement turned on
the issue of violence: representations of violence on tv promote
violence in real life.  (I believe VR could potentially but not
necessarily be a solution rather than an added problem, and will try
to explain why here.)

This is not specific to any medium-- it is a critique
of representation in general.  And it's an *old* arguement.
Marc Davis pointed out to me that Aristotle wrote about it, and
took the position that people do not go out and do what they see
represented.  On the other hand, why then do we get so bent out
of shape about negative representations of women in the media?
It's not as simple as monkey see/monkey do, but representations
clearly do affect how we think about the world.  

I guess the specific problem with tv is how the content is controlled
by corporate interests.  After all, GE owns NBC.  And advertisers
"own" the networks in subtler ways anyway.

At the same workshop, Chip Morningstar and Randall Farmer talked about
a debate about violence that had taken place on Habitat.  Their final
solution was to create two parts of town-- one in which violence is
permitted, and one in which it isn't.  I was impressed both with the
solution and the quality of the community discussion that led up to
it.

As consumers become information producers and media systems facilitate
the creation of virtual communities, I believe that what happenned on
Habitat will happen in lots of places.  There will be mind-opening debates
and innovative solutions.

I expressed this view to a few friends, and they did not share my
optimism.  The question is whether the vision of users as information
producers will become a reality.  Someone at DIAC said that the internet
is growing at a rate of 25% per month.  It is essentially a subsidized
undertaking.  The government and computer companies can't keep
footing the bill if the growth of the net continues at this rate.
Australia recently banned all MUDs.  The international link from
Australia to the rest of the world has too little bandwidth, and 
administrators are trying to regulate how it is used.  When Elizabeth Reid
(author of "Electropolis," a paper on social phenomena in MUDs)
requested special permission to MUD for research purposes, the director
of AARNET told her basically that her request was equivalent to 
asking to take drugs for research purposes.  Whether MUDs are
"addictive" is a separate topic of conversation, which was addressed
at the panel on social phenomena in MUDs organized by Mike Travers
at DIAC.  Ignoring that side issue, the problem is still significant
just in terms of bandwidth.  Is the Australian international link a
an oddity or a harbinger of things to come all over the net?  I fear
the latter.

At CHI, someone asked Joe Sparks (designer of Spaceship Warlock)
when he would make something that girls will like.  He stumbled,
said a couple inappropriate things, and finally concluded with "I
don't know.  I just make weird stuff and try and sell it."
Give him credit for honesty.  This to me captures the problem.

Corporate interests create and control content.  New media
technologies have the potential to solve this problem by making
consumers into information producers and creating virutal communities.
However, it is not clear that our economic system will cultivate its
development.  The net may be headed for trouble, because of the
way in which it is funded.  Certainly there will always be a few
wonderful systems created by idealists like all of us, but unless
we come up with a viable economic model, they will be limitted in 
their scope.

- -- Amy
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:24:14 1992
Status: RO
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:23:17" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "40" "[Elizabeth M. Reid: Re: representations of violence]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:23:17 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [Elizabeth M. Reid: Re: representations of violence]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 07:01:25 -0700
From:	"Elizabeth M. Reid" <emr@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au>
Subject: Re: representations of violence

Amy and Co. -

I ought to be getting ready for work, but before I leave I would like
to correct something that Amy wrote:

> administrators are trying to regulate how it is used.  When Elizabeth Reid
> (author of "Electropolis," a paper on social phenomena in MUDs)
> requested special permission to MUD for research purposes, the director
> of AARNET told her basically that her request was equivalent to 
> asking to take drugs for research purposes.  Whether MUDs are
> "addictive" is a separate topic of conversation, which was addressed
> at the panel on social phenomena in MUDs organized by Mike Travers
> at DIAC.  Ignoring that side issue, the problem is still significant
> just in terms of bandwidth.  Is the Australian international link a
> an oddity or a harbinger of things to come all over the net?  I fear
> the latter.

It was not Geoff Huston, the Director of AARNet, who said this. It was
the system administrator of a Computer Science machine. I just thought
I should make this clear before any rumours about Mr. Huston start
flying around - his policies are certainly making it difficult to do
my research, but he was not responsible for this particularly
outrageous remark.

Also - just to be picky - "Electropolis" was about IRC, not MUD :)

Elizabeth.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth M. Reid                                   Cultural Studies Program
emr@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au                              English Department 
emr@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au                              University of Melbourne
emr@coombs.anu.edu.au                                    Victoria, Australia
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:25:14 1992
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:24:14" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "156" "[asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: Australian MUDs banned]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:24:14 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: Australian MUDs banned]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 09:43:27 -0700
From:	asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Australian MUDs banned

Elizabeth Reid sent me this clarification of the situation with
Australian MUDs.  In summary, they are effectively banned (for
reasons of bandwidth), but the decision rests with each university's
policy on what is "academic" and how they choose to enforce it.
Here are the details:

Amy -

You've asked me to fill you in on what I know pertaining to these
excerpts: 

> > Jon just forwarded me your message where you mentioned that MUDs
> > have been officially banned in Australia.  I've been reading the
> > discussing on r.g.m. about this and didn 't hear that they were
> > actually banned, but rather a call had been made by some sysadmins
> > to ban MUD s.  Were they officially banned?  If so, how do they do
> > that?  Under who's authority?  Just curious.  I mentioned the
> > possible ban in my thesis, and if it actually happened, I should
> > put that in.

> (from rec.games.mud)
> 
> What was not reposted from aus.aarnet was that AARNet itself
> does not make decisions about shutting MUDs down. This is a decision
> made by AARNet members (university's). If a university wishes to
> allow MUDs then there is nothing AARNet can say or do to stop them.


The story as I know it (that is, as has been related to me by the
likes of Geoff Huston and Chris Chaundy (the Director of AARNet and
the Melbourne University AARNet representative respectively - that is,
what I have been told is pretty damn likely to be correct)) is:

AARNet and NASA pay half each of the satellite link which connects
AARNet to the Internet. The traffic on this link has been increasing
at an alarming rate, and because of this NASA has asked AARNet if they
would look into ways of cutting down the traffic. The implication was
that NASA might not be able to afford to fund their half if the
present rate of increase continues as that would mean upgrading the
link almost a year earlier than had been planned and budgeted for.
Whoever the NASA person doing all this communicating was
*specifically* mentioned targetting MUDS as a way of reducing traffic.
Note that the most recent AARNet analysis of traffic indicates that
MUDs consist of more than 10% of the traffic over the satellite link.

To go off at a tangent - the AARNet Acceptable Use Policy states that:

     1.  The function of AARNet is to carry material which supports
     the academic and research enterprise of higher education
     institutions and CSIRO and that this material may include news
     and ancillary materials relevant to the aims and objectives of
     these organisations.  
     1.1 the AVCC, in conjunction with CSIRO and through the AARNet
     Advisory Board, will decide which categories of material it will
     allow to be transmitted and those it will not transmit; 
     ...  
     1.3 if material which AARNet has resolved should not be
     transmitted is injected into the network the membership of the
     network member responsible for that action may be terminated by
     the AVCC.  
     ...  
     4.  Use of AARNet for commercial purposes, and purposes unrelated
     to the broad areas of relevance to the academic and research
     community is not considered acceptable use of AARNet services.
     ...  
     6.  Traffic originating from peer academic and research networks
     which conforms to the originating network's acceptable use
     policies is in general considered acceptable traffic to be
     carried over AARNet.

What this means is that it is up to the individual universities to
decide what is and is not academic as far as they are concerned -
AARNet has no say over that. AARNet then has an obligation to carry
traffic which is designated as acaedmic - it does not, however, have
any obligation to carry traffic originating from a particular
university that does not meet with that university's academic
sanction. Moreover, if any employee of AARNet becomes aware of any
traffic that may not conform to a university's regulations they are
free to inform the university of the existance of the traffic and ask
for confirmation of its legitimacy (or it's cessation if it is not
legitimate). Note that AARNet cannot *order* any institution to cut
any particular traffic - however, an insitution which persists in
sending non-academic traffic can be suspended from AARNet.

In the case of Melbourne University - and most other educational
institutions in Australia - the regulations relating to the use of
university computing and network facilities are as follows:

     1. No person may use comptuing or network facilities of the
     University for any purpose without first having obtained the
     approval of their head of Department, or of a member of staff of
     the Department authorised by their head of Department, to that
     use for the purpose proposed by that person. The head of
     Department must ensure that adequate records are kept of the use
     of the computing and network facilities by persons so approved.
     2. Students are permitted access to, and use of, University
     computing and network facilities solely for academic purposes
     directly related to their course of study. At no time are they
     authorised to use the facilities for any other purpose.
     ...

In practice, of course, most people do use the facilities for non
course-related purposes that have not been specifically approved by
their head of Department - they read aus.jokes, or use IRC, or FTP
megabytes of pornographic GIFs. In most cases this sort of thing is
ignored or not even noticed. It's only when things like NASA
practically threatening to cut our funding if we don't cut our traffic
occur that anyone starts making waves about keeping to the rules. And
as those rules stand the bottom line is that there should be virtually
no one on AARNet who can be legitimately using MUD. Or reading
aus.jokes, or FTPing pornographic GIFs, or using IRC etc etc. It is
MUDs, however, that have been targeted since they use up a large
amount of network resources and are fairly easy to spot (at least,
they use up more than IRC, and are easier to spot than porno GIF
FTPing). This has meant that the bigwigs at AARNet, and the members of
the Australian Vice-Chancellor's Committe (the AVCC) have circulated a
memorandum asking that the network people at each AARNet member
insitution do something to cut down traffic, with MUDs being
specifically mentioned as a target.

So, basically, MUDs are indeed banned on AARNet.

However, the AARNet acceptable use policy also states that:

     1.2 specific materials not normally transmitted through the
     network may be provided to individual sites if the materials are
     required by network members for legitimate teaching and/or
     research purposes and if the request for such materials is
     supported by the Chief Executive Officer of the institution
     requesting such materials; 

This means that in order to get permission to inject network traffic
that has been other wise proscribed (that is, deemed impermissable in
an AARNet Advisory Committee memorandum, as MUDs have been) one has to
petition the AVCC (the Vice-Chancellor being the CEO). 

To sum it all up - non-academic use of MUDs has been banned in
Australia. Academic use of MUDs is permitted, but one must seek
special permission from the AARNet Advisory Committee via the AVCC.
And, yes, I think it sucks.

Elizabeth.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth M. Reid                                   Cultural Studies Program
emr@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au                              English Department 
emr@munagin.ee.mu.oz.au                              University of Melbourne
emr@coombs.anu.edu.au                                    Victoria, Australia
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:25:34 1992
Status: RO
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:24:44" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "32" "[Shawn O'Donnell: Australian MUDs banned]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Fake-Sender: pavel@parc.xerox.com
Message-Id: <92May15.112452pdt.58372@lambda.parc.xerox.com>
Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:24:44 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [Shawn O'Donnell: Australian MUDs banned]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 11:02:42 -0700
From:	Shawn O'Donnell <sro@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Australian MUDs banned

So it seems that Australian MUDs aren't banned--it's the Australians'
use of the NASA/AARNet satellite link for non-academic MUD traffic
that's banned.

What's so terrible about that?  

I have a number of hobbies and diversions, and I enjoy direct or
indirect state subsidies on some of them.  On others I enjoy the
economic externalities of others' activities.  I can complain when the
state cuts funding for MDC hockey rinks, and I can grumble when my
neighbor stops planting flowers along our property line.  But I have
no "right" to expect I'll enjoy artificially cheap fun in perpetuity.

If my research leaches off of some one else's funding, then good
for me.  But when that someone else has generously made resources
available to all comers, but can no longer afford to do so, then I
should think about getting a research budget of my own.

The 90s promise to be an austere period, and we can expect all
institutions, public and private, to cut expenses.  I don't know how
much we in the US spend on maintaining computer communications, and I
don't know what portion of the traffic is for entertainment.  Whatever
the numbers are, you can be sure that in the coming years we'll all be
enjoying fewer free lunches, digital or otherwise.

- --Shawn
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:26:14 1992
Status: RO
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:25:24" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "22" "[Shawn O'Donnell: Australian MUDs banned]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Message-Id: <92May15.112527pdt.58371@lambda.parc.xerox.com>
Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:25:24 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [Shawn O'Donnell: Australian MUDs banned]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 12:01:35 -0700
From:	Shawn O'Donnell <sro@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Australian MUDs banned

I did formulate the question as one of some else funding your
entertainment, but I also formulated it as someone else funding
your research.  

It sounds as if AARN will entertain proposals for research use of
MUDs, but it doesn't sound like they'll allocate much bandwidth for
it.  Unfortunately, bandwidth is precisely what is needed for any
interesting culture studies or sociological results--you need lots of
people using the system for a long time.  That translates to a large
committmentg of resources.  But whose resources?  The National
*Aeronautical and Space* Administration's?  

I was just saying that the problem wasn't NASA's problem at all.  
It's the problem of people who want to use and do research on MUDs.

- -- Shawn
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:31:35 1992
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:30:22 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [Shawn O'Donnell: Australian MUDs]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 13:18:21 -0700
From:	Shawn O'Donnell <sro@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Australian MUDs 

My last word...

First, I agree with you that NASA shouldn't be making the big
decisions about directing science.  They have enough trouble
making reasonable decisions in their own expertise.

I have nothing against MUDs, the richness and promise of which I
clearly don't understand.  But that's beside the point.  (my point.)

My point is that there is confusion over public, quasi-public and
private use-rights and computer communications resources.  Your
analogy with the highway department illustrates the problem.  Are all
networks public?  Does everyone have a right to the Australia/US
satellite link, for any legal purpose, they way they have a right to
use I-95?  (Or is the turnpike a better analogy?)  *Public* roads are
meant to be public, and we all understand the conditions and
circumstances under which we have rights of access.  We also have very
concrete understandings of access rights to private property.  But
in between the two poles, things aren't so clear.  Bill Weld's office
is public property, and his office budget comes from public funds.  I
have very limited rights of access to both, but more than I would if
he were paying out of his own, tax-cheat-enhanced deep pockets.

The longer you can graze your computer on the grass of the commons,
the better.  But there comes a time when all the 'free' grass is gone,
and they have to put up a fence, charge an entry fee, or ban the
cattle.  There's nothing new about the problem.

This MUD thing--it could be any application, really--came up because
it was causing congestion on one quasi-proprietary link in a larger
network.  I'm saying: don't be surprised if other organizations
chase electronic squatters off their electronic open space.  The
problem, ultimately, is money--surprise!--so don't expect any quick or
painless solutions.  And don't be shocked when someday someone comes
to us network users and asks to be paid by the bit.  

It may be cyber space, but the money is real.

- --Shawn
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:31:45 1992
Status: RO
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:31:03" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "27" "[asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: Re: Australian MUDs]" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:31:03 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: [asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU: Re: Australian MUDs]

------- Start of forwarded message -------
Date:	Tue, 12 May 1992 14:03:02 -0700
From:	asb@MEDIA-LAB.MEDIA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Australian MUDs 

All of this debate over resources is exactly the point of my
original message: unless we come up with a more viable economic
model, the promise of our new media technologies will
not be realized.  

One approach is to ask the government to construct an information
infrastructure.  I believe that the highway system was justified as
necessary for defense.  Minitel is an example.

Another approach would be to devise a viable commercial model.
Is Compuserve profitable?  If we leave this to private development,
how do we prevent available services from violating personal freedoms
as Prodigy does?

It seems to me that the analogy with television evokes the correct issues--
issues of control over content and the impact of economics on content.
(Those weren't the issues the person who raised this at DIAC
was trying to raise... I think his analogy is valid for different
reasons than the speaker intended!)

- -- Amy
------- End of forwarded message -------

From parc.xerox.com!pavel Fri May 15 11:33:05 1992
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "11:32:20" "-0700" "Pavel Curtis" "Pavel@parc.xerox.com" nil "4" "No more forwarded messages" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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Message-Id: <92May15.113233pdt.58371@lambda.parc.xerox.com>
Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 11:32:20 -0700
From:	Pavel Curtis <Pavel@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Pavel Curtis <pavel@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: No more forwarded messages

That's the last of the messages I'm forwarding to Social-VR from earlier
discussions.

	Pavel

From parc.xerox.com!irwin Fri May 15 15:23:31 1992
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	[nil "Fri" "15" "May" "1992" "15:21:51" "-0700" "Susan Irwin" "irwin@parc.xerox.com" nil "32" "Fwd: Scenes from the Electronic City" "^Date:" nil nil "5"])
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References: <Ee535TcB0Kk3420G5g@euphemia.parc.xerox.com>
Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 15:21:51 -0700
From:	Susan Irwin <irwin@parc.xerox.com>
Sender: Susan Irwin <irwin@parc.xerox.com>
To:	Social-VR@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Fwd: Scenes from the Electronic City

---------- Forwarded message begins here ----------
...
Date:	Fri, 15 May 1992 14:47:11 -0700
From:	Steve Harrison <harrison@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Scenes from the Electronic City
...
	"To fully participate in the electronic city is to have virtually all
of one's activities recorded, correlated, and made available to an
enormous invisible government of credit agencies, back office computer
banks, and endless media connections.  To exist in the public realm in
the electronic system means to be wired in.  The ultimate consequence is
that the body, the person, no longer simply exists in public space but
actually becomes it." 

Or so says Michael Sorkin in "Scenes from the Electronic City"* -- an
essay on the substitution of electronic space for the physical space of
the city.  Drawing inspiration from the Willie Kennedy Smith trial,
ATM's and the death of Walter Hudson (world's fattest person), Sorkin
takes on the transformation of civic/public space and our private lives
into a fragmentary series of disconnected images like broadcast
television.

Steve sez, "Check it out".

SRH



* Sorkin, M., "Scenes from the Electronic City" in I.D. Magazine,
May/June 1992.



From well.sf.ca.us!jacques Mon Aug 24 11:16:17 1992
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	[nil "Mon" "24" "August" "1992" "11:13:18" "-0700" "Jacques Leslie" "jacques@well.sf.ca.us" nil "27" "Atlantic Monthly article on MUDs" "^Date:" nil nil "8"])
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Message-ID: <199208241813.AA14596@well.sf.ca.us>
Date:	Mon, 24 Aug 1992 11:13:18 -0700
From:	Jacques Leslie <jacques@well.sf.ca.us>
To:	social-vr.PARC@xerox.com
Subject: Atlantic Monthly article on MUDs

I am a journalist doing a piece for the Atlantic Monthly on MUDs. 
This idea, by the way, was spawned at the DIAC conference. Now I'd 
like to invite you to get in touch with me, either by phone (415) 
331-2644 or email, and leave your own phone number. 

Among the questions I'm interested in exploring:

-- Can you provide examples of close relationships forged through 
MUDding?
-- Can you provide examples of MUD addicts?
-- Can you cite and briefly describe unusually rich, innovative, or 
intriguing MUDs?
-- How prevalent have you found gender-switching on MUDs, and what is 
its impact on participants?
-- WhatUs the social benefit, if any, of MUDs?
-- Do MUDs represent a new form of social interaction? Are they "the 
wave of the future"?
-- Does the development of MUDs have great value for people studying 
how societies and communities take shape, or is the value limited 
because the people who typically participate in MUDs are so 
unrepresentative of the general population?

You can post answers to any of these questions you'd like, or just 
let me know how I can contact you by phone. The more you say about 
your own MUD experiences, the better. Thanks for your help.

Jacques Leslie (jacques@well.sf.ca.us)

From media-lab.media.mit.edu!gilberte Tue Aug 25 11:50:09 1992
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	[nil "Tue" "25" "August" "1992" "10:11:22" "-0700" "Gilberte Houbart" "gilberte@media-lab.media.mit.edu" nil "40" "Atlantic Monthly article on MUDs" "^Date:" nil nil "8"])
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In-Reply-to: "Martin Brenner's message of Mon, 24 Aug 1992 17:29:01 PDT <9208242229.AA13221@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de>"
Message-ID: <9208251711.AA25325@media-lab.mit.edu>
Date:	Tue, 25 Aug 1992 10:11:22 -0700
From:	Gilberte Houbart <gilberte@media-lab.media.mit.edu>
To:	brenner@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de
cc:	social-vr.PARC@xerox.com
Subject: Atlantic Monthly article on MUDs


>These relationships are probably no specialty of muds, but exist also
>in other wide area communication media, like IRC (Internet relay chat)
>and ham radio. But muds add much to create the right athmosphere to
>make come-together easier.

Yes, I think it's important not to forget about other media in order
to understand the specifics of MUDs. I developed myself close
relationships with friends just by "plain" email. I'm also closer to
those of my friends in France who have email. I remember on the other
hand, repeated long distance phone calls with friends and family.
Phone happens in real time, it may be expensive so you have to think
in advance and have quick answers. But if you can take more time, it
has in common with email that you don't see the person which is an
important factor for your imagination. (Voice though gives additional
information).

What your imagination builds to "fill in the blanks" seemed to me very
important and it could be bad or good depending on what your goal is.
With MUDs you want to be surprised (I guess), enjoy new feelings based
on what your imagination creates but if you are trying to build or fix
problems with people from your "real" life, you don't want your
imagination to be in the way.

The only solution I found was to try whenever possible to have some
reality check by just actually meeting people. We say a lot with body
language (Negroponte says that eyes are a great ouput system...).

The problem is certainly not new. Some of us were talking about
comparing the way people used to exchange letters in the past and
electronic communication. I'm sure that imagination used to create an
environment to these letters, the same way it does with email or MUDs
now. It may also vary from person to person.

If what you want is to unleash your imagination as much as you can, I
wonder if graphics are necessary or obviously the only way to go. It
reminds me of how disapointed I was when watching Natacha played by
some real human in some movie version of "War and Peace"...

Gilberte

From nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de!brenner Mon Aug 24 15:31:37 1992
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Date:	Mon, 24 Aug 1992 17:29:01 -0700
From:	brenner@nova.tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de (Martin Brenner)
To:	social-vr.PARC@xerox.com
Subject: Re: Atlantic Monthly article on MUDs

Jacques Leslie writes:

> I am a journalist doing a piece for the Atlantic Monthly on MUDs. 
> This idea, by the way, was spawned at the DIAC conference. Now I'd 
> like to invite you to get in touch with me, either by phone (415) 
> 331-2644 or email, and leave your own phone number. 

I'm running a mud in Tuebingen/Germany which is called Nightfall.
I'll try to answer some of your questions.

> Among the questions I'm interested in exploring:
> 
> -- Can you provide examples of close relationships forged through 
> MUDding?

Yes. I know of at least 3 close relationships in my mud. The farest
is probably about 5000 miles between a boy and girl in the U.S. who
are using muds as way of communicating besides using a phone.
They came together in person these days.

Muds often provide some sort of 'wedding' and I think this shows
how close relationships might be in a mud. The intensity of a relationship
is also obvious when it breaks.

These relationships are probably no specialty of muds, but exist also
in other wide area communication media, like IRC (Internet relay chat)
and ham radio. But muds add much to create the right athmosphere to
make come-together easier.

> -- Can you provide examples of MUD addicts?

Yes. Me. Let's face it, especially in extensible muds, a lot of fun
comes from being able to create and invent new things for a public
audience. This is similar to being a writer or artist (at least I
think of it this way). But the difference is that it is not a solo
enterprise but a whole group working on a huge project and having
fun in the meantime. This is far better than all entertainment 
which passive media provide.

> -- Can you cite and briefly describe unusually rich, innovative, or 
> intriguing MUDs?

Nightfall? My definition of a innovative mud is that it continously
evolves, which it must because as the mud becomes larger it must
somehow organize itself. The danger is always that it becomes a
dictatorship. We in Nightfall have always tried to keep things
going without opressing people. Decisions are normally voted upon
democratically.

A good mud should have rich room descriptions. Since there are no
graphics, the text must describe the scenario as best as possible.
Probably nothing surpasses the description in the commercial
Infocom adventure games (single user computer games).

The probably most interesting current mud is BSXMud, a mud with
graphical representations of rooms. I'm not sure that it really
adds to the atmosphere of the world but it is interesting as a
step into the future of Virtual Reality. Another important step which
is about to take place soon is a networked mud which will provide
an even more fascination group experience.

> -- How prevalent have you found gender-switching on MUDs, and what is 
> its impact on participants?

I have found it more or less annoying and I think it only creates
bad feelings for all participants. Nevertheless, male players have
told me that it is an interesting experience to play a female and
get all attention. 

> -- WhatUs the social benefit, if any, of MUDs?

Muds provide an easy understandable wordwide communication which no 
other medium besides personal contact does. Because it is restricted
to transmitting text it emphasizes the intellectul abilities of its
participants. There is no discrimination because of race, for
example. As a low bandwidth medium it provide a cheap worldwide
communication for those who have access to it which the telephone
with its still expensive long distant rates cannot.

> -- Do MUDs represent a new form of social interaction? Are they "the 
> wave of the future"?

They provide interaction based only on the imagination of its participants.
They provide a reality-like medium without the necessity to meet in person
or going to conferences. They are the first step to the future global
'cyberspace' evolving from the powerglove & video helmet of today's 
'virtual reality' experiments to direct mind-machine interfaces.

> -- Does the development of MUDs have great value for people studying 
> how societies and communities take shape, or is the value limited 
> because the people who typically participate in MUDs are so 
> unrepresentative of the general population?

That is difficult to answer, but I have met people out of many different
cultures and places in society. I am no sociologist, but from my
observations in my mud I conclude that a mud society shows the
sympthoms of real world power structures and group behaviour.
We are currently in the process of distributing responsibilities for
certain administrative and geographical areas.

Probably I can only speak for German muds where the average age of
players is a few years higher than in the United States.

> You can post answers to any of these questions you'd like, or just 
> let me know how I can contact you by phone. The more you say about 
> your own MUD experiences, the better. Thanks for your help.

I hope that I helped you to understand what I think Muds mean for our
future. I regret that many people see muds just as 'games'. We are
racing towards a revolution in information production and we really
need ways to make this information accessible in an easy-to-understandable
way. Familiar paradigmas must be used to make handling the information
by humans possible and provide the 'global village feeling' for
everybody.


Virtually,
-Martin
-- 
Martin Brenner, Institut f. Theoretische Astrophysik, Universitaet Tuebingen
brenner@tat.physik.uni-tuebingen.de    <Deepthought the Nightfall Sourcerer>


From media-lab.media.mit.edu!asb Sat Nov  7 07:23:00 1992
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	[nil "Sat" "7" "November" "1992" "07:18:21" "-0800" "asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu" "asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu" nil "18" "critical mass for a community" "^Date:" nil nil "11"])
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Date:	Sat, 7 Nov 1992 07:18:21 -0800
From:	asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu
To:	community-access@parc.xerox.com, social-vr@parc.xerox.com
Subject: critical mass for a community


How many people does it take to make a community?

As I may have mentionned, I had an interesting conversation last night
with some folks who want to start a community-access network
for kids of alcoholic parents.  It will include a BBS and a MUD,
and maybe other services.  (Any ideas?)

I'm concerned about the issue of critical mass.  It seems to me
that you need a certain number of people to start a BBS and
many more to start a viable MUD.  The question is, how many?
I suggested they aim for at least 100 kids to start.  They
suggested trying the system out with 10 kids to start, and
I said I thought that wouldn't work.

Any opinions?  Experiences you can share?  Thanks!

-- Amy

From cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us!chris Sat Nov  7 19:28:41 1992
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Date:	Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:00:19 -0800
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To:	media-lab.media.mit.edu!asb@netcom.com
Cc:	media-lab.media.mit.edu!parc.xerox.com!community-access@netcom.com,
	media-lab.media.mit.edu!parc.xerox.com!social-vr@netcom.com
Subject: Re: critical mass for a community

> 
> 
> How many people does it take to make a community?
> 
> As I may have mentionned, I had an interesting conversation last night
> with some folks who want to start a community-access network
> for kids of alcoholic parents.  It will include a BBS and a MUD,
> and maybe other services.  (Any ideas?)
> 
> I'm concerned about the issue of critical mass.  It seems to me
> that you need a certain number of people to start a BBS and
> many more to start a viable MUD.  The question is, how many?
> I suggested they aim for at least 100 kids to start.  They
> suggested trying the system out with 10 kids to start, and
> I said I thought that wouldn't work.
> 
> Any opinions?  Experiences you can share?  Thanks!
> 
> -- Amy
> 


100 kids, eh?
Sounds a bit high, unless you live in a major metropolitan area.
Even if you went to meetings of AA's "Children of Alcholics" and
got the participation of every kid from that ready made and 
identified pool of potential users who had access to a computer
and modem, you might be hard pressed to get 100 kids at the 
very beginning of the system's existance.

10 does sound much more reasonable for a start. A BBS on a pc of
some sort can be put together for a couple hundred bucks. It 
can easily provide a core set of services including email, bulletins,
discussion groups and text files of interesting info.

A MUD requires a multi user platform, which is much more expensive in
hardware and software, as well as more of an administrative headache.  
(ah, those muti user operating systems...)

If money is no problem, then spring for the multi user system and prepare
to spend time growing the user base. A MUD designed for kids of alcoholic
parents sounds like a very interesting support/therapy tool.

ccn

From uunet.uu.net!markets!randy Mon Nov  9 11:36:30 1992
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To:	community-access@parc.xerox.com, social-vr@parc.xerox.com,
	uunet!media-lab.media.mit.edu!asb@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Re: critical mass for a community

At  7:18 AM 11/7/92 -0800, uunet!media-lab.media.mit.edu!asb wrote:
>How many people does it take to make a community?
..
>I'm concerned about the issue of critical mass.  It seems to me
>that you need a certain number of people to start a BBS and
>many more to start a viable MUD.  The question is, how many?
>I suggested they aim for at least 100 kids to start.  They
>suggested trying the system out with 10 kids to start, and
>I said I thought that wouldn't work.
>
>Any opinions?  Experiences you can share?  Thanks!
>
>-- Amy

My expeience with the Habitats' early test periods indicates that you 
need more than 10...  30-50 seemed like enough *if* the hours of
operations were limited *and* there were scheduled events or meeting times.

For self-sustaining operations (where eough people are on-line to build
a sense of place most of the time) you need *well over* 100 people.

The key with small communities (<100) is getting the word out about the times to meet.
--------------------------------------------
F. Randall Farmer     randy@markets.amix.com
  AMiX, The American Information Exchange
--------------------------------------------


From well.sf.ca.us!jacques Tue Nov 10 14:33:16 1992
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	[nil "Tue" "10" "November" "1992" "14:27:29" "-0800" "Jacques Leslie" "jacques@well.sf.ca.us" nil "24" "a book about MUDs" "^Date:" nil nil "11"])
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Date:	Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:27:29 -0800
From:	Jacques Leslie <jacques@well.sf.ca.us>
To:	social-vr@parc.xerox.com
Subject: a book about MUDs


Some of you may remember that a few months ago I used this list to 
ask for leads for an article I was doing about MUDs for the Atlantic 
Monthly. I want to thank you for the help which many of you provided. 
The piece is now completed and accepted by the magazine, but my 
interest in MUDs continues, to the point that I'm now contemplating 
doing a book on MUDs.

As a result, I'd like to ask for your assistance once more. I would 
like the book to have some kind of narrative structure: it could 
trace the development of a particularly fascinating MUD over a year 
or 18 months, or it could follow some particularly fascinating MUD 
players over that time. What I'm looking for are suggestions of 
either MUDs or players who might merit such attention. I'm much more 
interested in social interactions than I am in game-playing MUDs and 
quests. The notion of following a MUD from its inception appeals to 
me, though I'd have to take into account the fact that many new MUDs 
don't survive, and thus I'm also open to the idea of writing about 
one which has already become successful. Obviously, what I'm looking 
for is social complexity and richness of anecdote. Any suggestions 
will be appreciated.

Jacques Leslie
jacques@well.sf.ca.us

From well.sf.ca.us!hlr Sun Nov 15 19:08:21 1992
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Date:	Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:05:34 -0800
From:	Howard Rheingold <hlr@well.sf.ca.us>
To:	asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu, community-access@parc.xerox.com,
	social-vr@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Re:  critical mass for a community

If the people have a strong bond, I don't think you need as many
as 100 people. In England, on a system called CIX, there seem to be
many small support groups of a dozen to twenty people in private
conferences.

From media-lab.media.mit.edu!wave Sun Nov 15 22:41:04 1992
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In-Reply-To: Howard Rheingold's message of Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:05:34 PST <199211160305.AA23079@well.sf.ca.us>
Date:	Sun, 15 Nov 1992 22:37:37 -0800
From:	<wave@media-lab.media.mit.edu>
To:	hlr@well.sf.ca.us
Cc:	asb@media-lab.media.mit.edu, community-access@parc.xerox.com,
	social-vr@parc.xerox.com
Subject:  critical mass for a community

   Date: 	Sun, 15 Nov 1992 19:05:34 PST
   From: Howard Rheingold <hlr@well.sf.ca.us>

   If the people have a strong bond, I don't think you need as many
   as 100 people. In England, on a system called CIX, there seem to be
   many small support groups of a dozen to twenty people in private
   conferences.

Yea, Penn & Teller have a small private bulletin board called the
Jungle which has about 10 or so regular participants.  People tend to
call in every day (sometimes more than once a day) and there is a lot
of activity...

- wave 

From media.mit.edu!mt Sun Nov 15 23:10:06 1992
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In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 15 Nov 92 22:49:36 PST."
             <9211160649.AA17358@media-lab.mit.edu> 
X-Mts: smtp
Date:	Sun, 15 Nov 1992 23:07:46 -0800
From:	Michael Travers <mt@media.mit.edu>
To:	social-vr@parc.xerox.com
Subject: Re: critical mass for a community 


I've lost track of the original message, but I believe Amy was
wondering about MUD-based communities.  There's an obvious difference
in critical-mass requirements between synchronous (MUDs) or
asynchronous (email) communities.  The latter can work with a small
group, but in the former case you need enough people spending enough
time on the system that you get a critical mass *at any one time*.
The at-one-time critical number might be as small as 2 or 3 people,
but the community has to be big to ensure that you get that.

I guess the alternatives to a big pool of people are either having a
few people who spend their whole day logged into the MUD, or having
known meeting times so you don't depend on chance.



From media-lab.media.mit.edu!gilberte Wed Nov 25 17:12:22 1992
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To:	social-vr.PARC@xerox.com, online-world@media-lab.media.mit.edu
Subject: [new online journal: Arachnet Elect. Jrnl. of Virtual Culture]


=======================  Forwarded  Message  ===========================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1992 08:56:11 CST
Reply-To:     DKOVACS@Kentvm.Kent.edu
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From:         Diane Kovacs <DKOVACS@Kentvm.Kent.edu>

ARACHNET on LISTSERV@UOTTAWA.BITNET
         or LISTSERV@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA

   The Arachnet Electronic Journal of Virtual Culture
   shall be created and published by Arachnet. Virtual
   culture is computer-mediated human experience/behavior
   /action/interaction, such as electronic mail, conferences,
   and journals; information distribution/retrieval; the
   construction and visualization of images/representations/
   models of reality and/or worlds; and global connectivity.
   The purpose of the refereed journal is to foster, encourage,
   advance, and communicate scholarly thought, (including
   analysis, evaluation, and research) in multiple disciplines
   about virtual culture.

   Leadership for the journal will initially be provided by
   the co-moderators of Arachnet, with the provision that other
   colleagues will join in the effort:

      Ermel Stepp, Marshall University, Editor-in-Chief
      Diane Kovacs, Kent State University, Co-Editor
      A. Ralph Papakhian, Indiana University, Consulting Editor

   In addition to the three named editors, the journal will
   have an assortment of editors (editorial board, consulting
   editors, special issue editors, and associate
   editors/jurors/referees/readers) columnists, and
   correspondents.

   The journal will have an ISSN and a copyright.

   The journal will publish certain information in every
   issue, including, for example, ownership, editorial staff,
   editorial requirements, disclaimer, and copyright statement,
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   The journal will be distributed in collaboration with existing
   discussion groups, networked archival systems, and libraries.

   The journal will be issued monthly commencing with the
   first issue on March 15, 1993.

   Each issue of the journal will be less than 100 type-written
   pages in length in the first year.

   The official language of the journal will be English.
   Translations into other languages for limited issues may
   be approved by special arrangement.

   Deadlines for the submission of manuscripts will be the
   first of the month preceding the next issue. The deadline
   for the submission of manuscripts for the first issue is
   February 1, 1993.

   Articles will be 5-20 type-written pages in APA form and
   style and in ASCII format.

   All manuscripts will be given at least two blind reviews
   by a jury of referees.

   Authors will be notified within twenty days after receiving
   their manuscript of the disposition of the manuscript, except
   notification about submissions for the first issue will be
   distributed by March 1, 1993.

   When appointments are made announcements will be widely
   distributed to the chief executive officers of the appointees'
   institutions, professional organizations and media, and
   computer teleconferences.

   All submissions and communication about manuscripts will be by
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   and hypertext, will be considered for formatting versions of
   the journal.

   No print version of the journal is contemplated.

   No subscription fee for the journal is contemplated.

   To subscribe to the Electronic Journal of Virtual Culture:
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   LISTSERV@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA (Internet)
   Leave the subject and other option lines blank.  The message must read:
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From uu.psi.com!washofc!civille Sun Nov 29 10:18:43 1992
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Organization: CPSR, Washington Office
X-Umcp-To: Community Access, Media Lab, Social-VR
Date:	Sun, 29 Nov 1992 08:52:11 -0800
From:	Richard Civille <civille@washofc.cpsr.org>
To:	Social-VR <social-vr@parc.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: > critical mass for a co 

        Reply to:   RE>> critical mass for a com
I think Howard Reingold's comment about small communities on CIX in England
is on track.  He says:

>If the people have a strong bond, I don't think you need as many
>as 100 people. In England, on a system called CIX, there seem to be
>many small support groups of a dozen to twenty people in private
>conferences.

Communities are composed of small groups which have natural ties across
group boundaries, both weak and strong.  Any online system which supports a
"community" of whatever size has to have the necessary tools to really
support small groups.  Small groups are the building blocks, and social
foundation for any community. 

Richard Civille
CPSR, Wash. DC


