Subject: Re: MSC Pricing (and service)

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 07:20:55 -0700

Fitch R. Williams wrote:
> 
> Paul Pierce <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> >Caveat Emptor  (see Fitch - I took lating too.)
> 
> >--
> >Paul in AJ AZ  NRA Endowment Member
> 
> I am truly whelmed.  And it didn't melt in the September AJ
> heat.  Durable stuff that "lating".
> 
> Fitch
> 
> PS I didn't actually take Latin, just a lot of math and some
> Spanish in HS that I have forgotten most of.  But a number
> of NG folks did, they refreshed my divot filled metal media
> with what QED stood for, for which I thank them.

As you may have noted - I didn't take typing in HS.  They said I
needed studyhall worse than a typing class!!!  So I sat and read 
magazines.  Personally I think basic touch typing should be a
required subject - even if only for 6 weeks.  Now that were are 
a computer world, a semester wouldn't be wrong.  They have the
time now that shop classes are about gone.

-- 
Paul in AJ AZ  NRA Endowment Member

Checkout the Metal Web News at:
new address (11/23/96)

http://www.ten.k12.tn.us/~wgray

Checkout the FAQ at:
http://PLAINS.UWYO.EDU/%7Emetal/index.html

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 4 Dec 1996 21:28:26 GMT

>>The fact that the Ahha software works and that the Microkinetics stuff
>>has
>>major problems as you described in an earlier post cant possibly have
the
>>same end result.
>>
>>
>By same end result I mean a *working* CNC Sherline. As I have repeatedly
>said, "not wishing to go into the relative merits or faults of the
>software..."

If you dont compare the relative merits or faults, how can you arrive at
the decision that you have the "same end result"?

All I am saying is that you are not making a fair comparison. You are
telling the beginner that might be thinking about embarking down the road
to low cost CNC bliss that he / she  will get the same "end result" by
only spending $999.00 as he would if he spent the $3000.00 on the Ahha
system.

>Bill be fair, I also said they fixed almost all of them too. How about
>helical interpolation? Working yet?

Where did you get this info? What version of software are they running? 

As I said to you before I do not know of any problems with helical
interpolation, it works on the 4 versions of Artisan and 1 version of CNC
Pro that I have. When I set up a system, I use the helical routine to burn
in the system. I have not actually cut threads with it, but it is pretty
impressive to watch the table making circles while the z axis moves
linearly. I personally think that it is much more important (in my
applications) to be able to do circular interpolation without having to
reboot my machine when it wont stop.

>It might also be a nice gesture to declare your associations with the
>company in question so people can form an unbiased opinion when you slam
>MicroK.

OK my declaration: I am not a formal reseller of Ahha systems, I do not
work for Ahha, I have on 8 occasions personally  re-sold Ahha products for
a small profit. I might also add that with the amount of personal customer
service I have added to these sales I have not made a red cent. This is a
hobby for me, I enjoy helping people get their machines up and running
properly and professionally! I make my living another way. 

And I also dont feel that I have Slammed anyone, I simply repeated some
facts as you had "messengered " them. I have bought several items from
Microkinetics, and have been happy with them and the service they had
provided me with. I did not buy there software based upon the comparison
between there demo versions, Dancad / cam, Minitech, and some company from
PA to the Ahha demo software.

>I really get tired of all of this.

Then start making fair and like comparisons. Dont try to play down a
product just because its not exactly what you want, dont need, or cant
find the budget for. 

> I am the messenger! If a company sets
>these prices then surely it's their problem to defend them. I like to
>point out what I have found out. It's called passing the knowledge along.

>I am not trying to do anyone out of business. I spent a great deal of
time
>evaluating a lot of alternatives and I elected to go with MicroK. I see
>nothing wrong with passing on what I discovered so that maybe others can
>start half way down the path to setting up a low cost CNC.

Once again, you should not try and make the beginner think that he / she
will get the "same end result" with a $999.00 CNC system as they would
with the $3xxx.xx Ahha system. And lets surely make sure they know they
will not get anything "exactly " like a $60,000.00 VMC except for speed. (
and yes I realize that this may be your own personal experience )

>I have a working Sherline CNC, it churns parts daily. For the parts I am
>making and will continue to make on the Sherline they would be *exactly*
>the same if I made them on a Haas VF-0 at $60,000. The only thing that
>would change is the rate at which they come off the machine.

I guess you must be a tremendous machinist / programmer if you can get the
same accuracy and repeatibility out of your Sherline / MicroK machine. 

Just joking....I too get tremendously accurate and repeatable parts of my
Sherline machines and other "low cost " machines.

>Let me repeat just one more time. What I have reported is what I found to
>be true in *my* experience.

Sorry you had to repeat yourself, I know how busy you must be, I must have
missed that statment in your original post.

>Peter

I am very sorry that this post if sooooooo..... far off the subject. In
the future I will try to refrain from such off topic responses.

Bill "who sometimes resells Ahha products for little profit vs time"
Griffin

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:36:20 -0700

Steve Stallings wrote:
> ...
> That being said, I recently had an interesting experience with
> MSC. 

Several months ago I bought (from the sale catalog) a 3", 4-jaw,
5C mounting, chuck made by Sherline, a good price.

A couple of months later they advertised a ssimilar sale.  I liked
the 4-jaw so much I ordered a 4", 3-jaw, 5C chuck.  They didn't
say it was a Ssherline - my problem - it wasn't.  Some chinese
brand.  Spend the better part of the afternoon deburring, etc.  
Wouldn't make a flea on the Sherline's tail...  That's what I get 
for reading something into the advertisement.  They had made no claim...

> It arrived the next day as usual; however it was not quite t.......
> .......I figured that for the price 

Checkout the FAQ at:

---

From: "Ray F. Abadie" <[email-masked]>
Date: 2 Dec 1996 04:42:25 GMT

Peter,

RE> It doesn't seem like a very moral approach to business to me. We price
products according to what they cost to make plus a reasonable profit
margin. I believe that is the way it should be done, I know it makes me
feel happier about my business.

Haven't you forgotten overhead and low turnover inventory? At current rates
composing that "wishbook" catalog must cost MSC hundreds of thousands.
Having a good deal of what is in the catalog actually available (as opposed
to other companies that backorder or substitute nearly everything even
though they have a much more limited selection) requires that money be tied
in low turnover inventory. MSC's prices simply reflect a well know business
principle wherein a broad inventory that includes many low turnover items
for the customer's convenience (heck, only source in many cases) requires
that the more common items cross subsidize the loss of interest or profit
on the tied capital.

> If you know MSC is high but don't care because someone else is paying
that supports MSC in maintaining artificially high prices that can be
dropped if only you ask

I am sure they would rather satisfy a customer by granting a discount when
requested. That is a positive thing, not a negative. If they simply dropped
the price on everything to match discounters then I can assure you their
broad selection would *have* to shrink or they would go out of business.

No I don't work for MSC but have benefited immensely from their actually
having in stock specialty cutters and other items when others don't carry
them or backorder them for months.

That said, I don't understand why you must question the "morality" of MSC's
pricing policies. Must you make MSC some kind of villain simply because you
do not care to trade with them? Is this also the case with Ah-Ha's
software?

Ray

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 04:52:17 GMT

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 3 Dec 1996 07:24:49 GMT

In article <01bbe0a4$6ebf26a0$5f0135cf@ray-abadie>, "Ray F. Abadie"
<[email-masked]> writes:

>Peter, your attack of Ah-Ha and repeated use of misinformation such as 3K
>to retrofit a Sherline when that price is for a bigger machine was of
some
>concern. Many beginners come here looking for answers and are likely to
>regard posts as containing true information. I confronted Richard with
your
>accusations and got a lengthy reply with the facts as they saw them.
>
>

Not so Ray, as far as I can recall my posts *do* contain true information
but let me run some figures just for my own edification.

6 amp controller with two axis included: $1530
Extra axis controller: $367
3 *surplus* motors at $75 each = $225
*Lowest cost* Software: $549
Sherline mounting kit: $335
That *totals* $3006 right out of their catalog and that does not include
shipping and handling or *new* motors.

I could have used the price of the Artisan software and added another
$446. The surplus motors would be marginal at at 100oz-in and I would opt
for 150s and that would add another $20 per motor. Consider also that
AhHa's surplus motors only have a 90 day warranty too.

Without getting into the merits or otherwise of the software,
MicroKinetics offer this same end-result package for $999. Admittedly the
AhHa system *could* be later used on a bigger mill by scrapping the
mounting kit and the motors (lose $560 and then add another $1110 for
650oz-in motors+$480 for the mounting kits for *two* axis) but that is the
minimum configuration to retrofit a Sherline by AhHa. By saying $3K, you
can see that I was *actually* being conservative. So perhaps you are right
my post did contain an untruth, I am sorry I should have said $3.06K <w>

As I said in my last post that there is a danger in commenting on things
you only *think* you know something about. There is nothing misleading to
anyone in the above figures unless I have been given a special price list
by AhHa! Perhaps another e-mail to Richard may explain this for us both.

Peter
Whose calculator still makes 2+2= 1.99999999

---

From: "Ray F. Abadie" <[email-masked]>
Date: 3 Dec 1996 09:23:34 GMT

Peter

> Extra axis controller: $367

Is that the capacity required to drive those motors? Wouldn't 1.5 amp
drivers do the job? Heck, many of the "homebuilt" driver circuits being
sold won't even support 1 amp. Shouldn't we compare apples to apples? 

When I approached Ah-Ha! initially I inquired about a custom 3 axis gantry
project, Bridgeport Mill, Hardinge Lathe and a Prazi Mill. They candidly
explained that their driver was overkill for the Prazi (similar to a
Sherline in size) and so I went elsewhere for 1.5 amp drivers and motors. I
don't think they market a 3K retrofit kit for a Sherline though you can
pick components that *will* work and yield the price you mention. Their
superior product is their software which I would want even for a
Prazi/Sherline. The systems integration provided by them for larger
retrofits or custom made machines is worth the asking price. Think about
it, 6-10 amp drivers will set you back $380-$500 per axis regardless of
where they come from which is in line with what Ah-Ha is charging.

>As aid in my last post that there is a danger in commenting on things
you only *think* you know something about. 

Exactly what does this mean? I have 17 years of process control,
microcontroller design, etc. and will humbly accept dissenting views and
examine them for personal enrichment. Thus far all I hear is a lot of
bragging about superior frugality and insults like the one above. Is that
the challenge you propose? I will not stoop down to calling someone a
"weenie" (as you did in a previous post) to defend an argument that is
strictly factual. Are you up to your own challenge or should I just move
on?

Ray