Subject: Machine oil

From: "Kevin Rhodes, P.E." <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:02:51 -0700

Sorry if this a FAQ.  I looked there and could not find.  I just 
purchased a lathe and want to keep it humming along.  The seller 
recommended SAE 30 non-detergent for machine oil.  He was fairly 
emp[hatic about this.  I am having a helluva time finding non-detergent. 
 It seems that someone said that they use Mobil 1.  Is this true.  Any 
hints on what type of retailers may carry a suitable oil?

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 18:50:21 GMT

Kevin Rhodes, P.E. ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Sorry if this a FAQ.  I looked there and could not find.  I just 
: purchased a lathe and want to keep it humming along.  The seller 
: recommended SAE 30 non-detergent for machine oil.  He was fairly 
: emp[hatic about this.  I am having a helluva time finding non-detergent. 
:  It seems that someone said that they use Mobil 1.  Is this true.  Any 
: hints on what type of retailers may carry a suitable oil?

This type of oil is still sold for lawnmowers and similar small engines.
It depends on what type of headstock bearings you have as to whether this
is right for you.  It is good for worn journal bearings, but too heavy
for good journal bearings and roller bearings.  It is probably OK for
all sliding surfaces (ie. bed ways, cross slide, tailstock, etc.)
I use #10 on my headstock spindle, #30 on everything else.

MSC, Enco and all the other machine tool supply outfits sell lubricants
specifically designed for machine tools.  There is way-lube for the sliding
ways and spindle lubes for the bearings.  Most of these can be ordered
in gallon jugs.

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:19:15 GMT

Could someone give a quick explanation of which oils are used where?
Jonathan has given a good start, differentiating sliding surfaces vs.
spindles. What about hand wheels where there is a little oil port to oil
the screw? Any significant differences between mills and lathes? What
kinds of problems develop using plain old motor oil? 

I don't mind buying the right lubricants, but I'm not sure which they
are!

Jonathan M. Elson wrote:
 It is probably OK for

-- 
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Herbert)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:43:41 GMT

>hints on what type of retailers may carry a suitable oil?

Mobil makes a product called High-Speed spindle oil specifically
designed for machinery, lathes, mills, drill presses, etc.  It is
listed on the container as "medium viscosity", and seems to be about
20 wt.  It is a non-detergent product.  

I just bought a gallon of it (the only way it comes) from Rutland Tool
& Supply for about $11.00, but I know that other suppliers carry this
type of lubricant as well.  Wholesale Tool, and KBC come to mind,
whichever is in your area.

Tom Herbert

---

From: [email-masked] (Steve Rayner)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:14:56 GMT

My Myford manual suggests SAE30 detergent motor oil.  My old workshop was 
only 300 feet from the Victoria waterfront, unheated, and damp at times.  
I oiled down the entire lathe with the same oil used for lube.  There was 
never any rust.  Last year, after 25 or more years of use, I stripped the 
saddle for cleaning.  The saddle was fine.  The ways are only slightly worn.
There is no shake, the saddle is just a bit tighter at the tailstock end.
There are a few small pits where the felt wiper sat, while I underwent 
cancer treatments, but this was caused by soluble oil.

In a previous article, [email-masked] (Russ Kepler) says:

>In article <[email-masked]>, Steven O. Smith <[email-masked]> wrote:
>Check what the manufacturer suggests, and follow that.  If you can't 
>get a manual, ask here and someone will likely have your machine and
>can help you out.
>
>On mine the manual has a couple of pages giving the oiling points,
>frequency and the oil types to use.  Basically, it's all a
>lightweight spindle oil (about 10 wt) except for the ways and way
>wipers (about 30 wt way oil - specially sticky).  Both are available
>from MSC (Manhatten Supply Company, but I don't think they use the
>full name anymore - 800-645-7270) in gallon quantities for something
>about $10/gallon.  I use the spindle oil for most bearings and the
>way oil for the ways on my lathe, mill and shaper.  
>
>-- 
>Russ Kepler							[email-masked]
>
>                    Please Don't Feed the Engineers
>

-- 
Steve.

**************  BE ALERT, THE WORLD NEEDS MORE LERTS ************************

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:15:08 GMT

---

From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Sep 1996 13:10:28 GMT

Re: motor oil on machine tools.  

For starters, it's quite likely going to be the wrong viscosity. 
"10W" is *NOT* the same as "#10". The "W" number is viscosity 
at, I think, 32F, or possibly 0F, and I doubt your shop is 
that cold.

For another, it is designed to emulsify with water and hold 
it in suspension; Since an engine gets hotter than the boiling 
point of water, the water gets driven off.
Machine tool bearings and sliding surfaces don't (one hopes!)
get that hot.  Therefore, machine oil is designed to 
precipitate water.  

Motor oil is designed to keep dirt in suspension so the 
filter can take it out.  Machine tool  bearings don't 
have oil filters, so machine oil is non-detergent so any 
dirt will precipitate out.

There are a bunch of other minor differences too, but those
are the big ones.

All that said...does it *really* matter?  I use the correct
machine oil on my lathe spindle bearings and other precision 
parts.  I confess to using synthetic ATF (which is roughly 
equivalent to a #10 oil) on less critical parts, such as 
handwheels.  I've used #40 synthetic oil on leadscrews.

---

From: [email-masked](Dave Ficken)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 12:51:58 GMT

Greetings,
 I am looking for a part for a taper attachment for a 10K or 9"
Southbend. I need the sliding block. Southbend wants $227.00 for this
piece. I have one from a Logan, but it is different enough that I would
be better off starting from scratch. No luck with Sobel, Plaza, et al.
 Anyone got a spare? I would consider buying a complete taper as well.
Failing that, can anyone sketch me some dimensions?
Thanks in advance,
Dave Ficken
Meridian Machinery
P.S. I have lots of intersting stuff to trade for this piece if we
can't get together on a cash price.

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:27:04 GMT

James Kirkpatrick wrote:

> The following might help, from the FAQ:

My apologies for not checking the FAQ first!

-- 
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: "Bill Harnell" <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Sep 1996 01:22:23 GMT

Find your local Valvoline distributor and ask for their non-detergent oil.
I have some here, both SAE 30 and 40 that I used in my Unimat 7 lathe/mill.
Still use it for general purpose lubrication of lathe and mill beds and
cross slides, etc..

Kevin Rhodes, P.E. <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

---

From: Vince Iorio <"[email-masked]"@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 09:41:49 -0700

> at, I think, 32F, or possibly 0F, and I doubt your shop is

Not really a good assumption.  My friend works in his unheated shop during the
winter, he has to run the mill and lathe at slow speed to warm up the oil
before use.  He's planning on changing to a different oil this winter.

A multi-wieght oil can have more additives then mineral oil.  Motor oil
is only really good only for cars.

> dirt will precipitate out.

Not complete correct.  The detergents keep the oil in suspension so that
the filter will not clog.  When a detergent oil is placed in old equipment
it will strip off the dirt, not good.  Old/older airplane I.C. engines
that have used a straight mineral have to keep using a non-detergent oil
because the "stuff" that coats the inside of the engine will be stripped
off and clog the filter. 

> There are a bunch of other minor differences too, but those

Vince

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Lorenz)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 12:13:37 GMT

North Bay Machinery  Tel. 810-759-6014  in Warren Michigan, just received 
two SB10K lathes for parts, I noticed one was set up for a taper 
attachment, I don't know if all the parts are there, but it may be worth 
a call to Ray or Sam tell them Bob the fireman told you about the lathes.

---

From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 26 Sep 1996 05:08:49 GMT

>      Elsewhere we mentioned the book "A Brief treatise on Oiling Machine
>      Tools" (Guy Lautard) but nobody's posted a review yet.

I have a copy of this phamphlet.  I don't think it provides what the title promises.

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

---

From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 26 Sep 1996 05:14:15 GMT

Since most bearings (at least in the machines I can afford) are lubed with what
is called a total loss system, the oil does not stick around and plate contaminants 
out on the internal surfaces.

Therefore, I submit that a good high-quality synthetic motor oil is indeed a 
good machine tool lubricant.

Fact is I use Mobil 1 in 20-50 for my plain-bearing Rockford and Mobil 1 5-30 for
my Bridgeport spindle bearings.

The Rockford's bearings seems to run cooler and the Bridgeport's certainly do.

Also, since most of the specialty machine tool oils are sold in 1 gal minimums,
the quart container of the auto oil is much more convenient and, I suspect,
because the oil is used faster (on a percentage basis) has less chance of
oxidizing before it is used.

Incoming!  :-)

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

---

From: [email-masked] (john)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 10:24:41 GMT

Why waste your time and possibly screw up your machine jacking around with 
different oils. Here's something to consider. If your machine has a one shot 
lube system, the oil is distributed through meters to the various orifices. 
The meter openings are extremely small and it takes next to nothing to clog 
them. I recently bought a used CNC machine, and after a few weeks of service I 
noticed the ways weren't getting any oil. All the meters and lines were 
clogged with some sort of oil that had gotten hard. I have no idea how long 
this machine had been sitting before I bought it. 
The easiest solution is to just buy a gallon of Mobil Vactra #2 and be done 
with it. It's good for ways and spindle bearings, and at $10 a gallon it's not 
much more than motor oil.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 26 Sep 1996 13:53:20 GMT

>oxidizing before it is used.

Not from me - I had previously posted that I also use Mobil 1 for the
headstock bearings on my SouthBend lathe (also 5-30).  I have done
this since a machinist here at work suggested it.  I had been using the
"official" south bend oil in the spindle, and had the following problem:

When the bearing shims were adjusted to spec (with so many pounds
of force on the spindle, it deflected so much) then the spindle would
run hot when run at the machine's top speed for very long.

I drained the reservoirs and flushed them, and re-filled with Mobil 1,
and the problem has never repeated.  I drain, flush, and re-fill
about twice a year.  

Advantages - spindle runs cooler at high speeds.  Oil is always available,
as I run it in my bikes - no need to purchase gallon cans which then
take up room and slowly oxidize to death in my basement.

Disadvantages - this is a detergent oil.  Does it pull old junk out
of the reservoir and circulate it into the bearings?  (Hmm - maybe
I'll drain the headstock tonight) Will this cause the bearings to blow
out in a few years?  

I guess the best of all possible worlds would be to disassemble the
entire headstock, clean the reservoirs spotless, and then re-fill.

The rest of the machine (except the ways) gets 5 wt ATF.  

===========================================================

 1959 BMW R50                                           Jim Rozen              
 1969 BMW R60US                                (JRR0 @ watson.ibm.com)                 
 1975 BMW R75/6    (The "new" one)        

===========================================================

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From: [email-masked] (Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB)
Date: 26 Sep 1996 14:10:08 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]> writes:

   Incoming!  :-)

   Best regards,

   Mike Rehmus

A mechanical workshop around here is doing exactly the same with their
lathes and mills, except for the ways. They suggested I use synthetic
gear oil or hydraulic oil if I was nervous about using motor oil.

Ole-Hj. Kristensen

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From: [email-masked] (Bill Webster)
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:56:05 -0400

I'll put my flame shield on before I ask this question.
Okay, it's on now.  Light the burners!

What about 3-in-1 oil?  What is this stuff, and would it be any good for
those people with a very small lathe?  

I happened to notice it at the hardware store the other night.  Appears to
be 2 grades: for motor bearings and for general purpose lubrication
(household).

Okay, after-burners off.

I use way oil and mobile 1.

regards.

-- 
Bill Webster   [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Andy Dingley)
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:28:02 GMT

The moving finger of [email-masked] (Bill Webster) having written:

>What about 3-in-1 oil?  What is this stuff, 

Terrible stuff.  It's vegetable based, not mineral, so it tends to
oxidise and go sticky if exposed to the air.

---

From: [email-masked] (James Kirkpatrick)
Date: 24 Sep 96 12:50:05 MDT

In article <[email-masked]>, "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]> writes:
|>Could someone give a quick explanation of which oils are used where?
|>Jonathan has given a good start, differentiating sliding surfaces vs.
|>spindles. What about hand wheels where there is a little oil port to oil
|>the screw? Any significant differences between mills and lathes? What
|>kinds of problems develop using plain old motor oil? 
|>
|>I don't mind buying the right lubricants, but I'm not sure which they
|>are!

The best source of info would be the machine's manual, but in many cases
the manual is gone or gives no clue (e.g. far eastern junk).

33.   What kind of oil should I use on my lathe/mill?

      This is certainly a frequently asked question!  The first answer is to
      use whatever the manufacturer's manual suggests, presuming you have
      a manual for your machine.

      Feed-screw threads, half nuts, back gears and similar are usually
      lubricated with a heavy oil such as Vactra 2, or grease if protected
      from chips and swarf.  Some suggest a mixture of oil and STP oil
      treatment.

      Beds and "ways" are often treated with special oils, called "way oils".
      ISO 68 (light to medium weight).  Examples:  Exxon Febis K 68, Shell
      Tona T-68, Sun way lub 1180, Mobil Vactra No 2, Texaco Way lube 68,
      Gulf Gulfway 68, Cheveron Vistac 68X.

      Spindle bearings call for "spindle oil" such as Exxon Nutto H32,
      Shell Tellus V32, BP HLP32, Castrol Hyspin AWS32, and Mobil DTE 32
      (in this case the 32 is the ISO VG32 spec, about the same as SAE
      10-weight, and is what Myford recommends for their lathes).  ISO
      grade 22 is also used.

      All three types are available from the better supply outfits,
      such as MSC.  Remember that the money you spend on proper oils will
      be a lot less than the cost of replacing the machine!

      South Bend, for example, recommends four different lubricants for
      their 9" and 10" lathes:  CE1671 bed way lube, CE1603 medium machine
      oil, CE-1600 light machine oil, and CE1625 teflon grease.  These are
      available from South Bend.

      A suggestion I've read is to oil lathe ways before using, to clean off
      dust/grunge that may have accumulated since you last used it.  After
      work is finished, wipe off but leave a film for rust prevention.

      Multigrade motor lubricants are not recommended.  They are full of
      all sorts of stuff to make the oil work inside an internal combustion
      engine.  Use a straight 30 or 20 grade oil with no detergent if you
      can't find anything else.  A transmission oil might be OK in an
      oil-filled gearcase.