Subject: Re: Airguns anyone?

From: [email-masked]
Date: 4 Dec 1996 00:28:04 GMT

I interested, haven't built any, but done plenty of shooting with them.  I
have a Beeman R7 rifle, and a Spanish made pistol.  Amazing accuracy, and
great for firearm training.  I've shot grapes at 50-70' with open sights
on the rifle, and toppled Al cans at impressive distances with the pistol.
 I haven't shot either in years though, but when I get a house with some
sort of yard, I'll be back at it.

Keep in touch,

Paul

[email-masked]

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From: "David A. Holly" <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 96 15:43:03 GMT

I too am interested in air rifles and have been toying with the idea of
building a bellows type rifle.  I read, in Beeman's Airgun Digest, that
some of the old bellows type air rifles were powerful enough to hunt elk
with.  I think that a modern version of a bellows gun, with the bellows in
the butt stock, would prove to be very powerful.  

The bellows, if large enough, could be as fast or faster than a spring
piston type gun because the bellows would only need to be about .5 to 1
inch apart.

What to you think??????

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From: Don Holly <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:09:46 GMT

"David A. Holly" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I read, in Beeman's Airgun Digest, that
>with.  I think that a modern version of a bellows gun, with the bellows 

What's a bellows type air rifle? 

While I know people used to make air rifles which were used in
hunting, I thought they were still very low-powered compared to
firearms. Not true?

By the way, congratulations on an excellent username.

Don Holly
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:24:26 GMT

In <[email-masked]> "David A. Holly"
<[email-masked]> writes: 
>building a bellows type rifle.  I read, in Beeman's Airgun
Digest....<<

    Airguns fascinate me too! I do not know anything about the bellows
type, I always thought that the more powerful airguns used a higher
pressure contained in a pressure reservoir. I do have a wierd
quasi-airgun I bought from a German company years ago. It has a
supplimental cylinder next to the receiver which is filled with ether.
When you want more power, you push a lever and a small dose of ether is
injected into the air chamber. The piston coming forward ignites the
ether (think diesel) and roughly doubles the pellet velocity....22 cal.
    Ever seen one of these?  
                                Roger L.

---

From: [email-masked] (Randolph Lee)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:11:31 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,

>What's a bellows type air rifle? 

beats me... I have a vision of a gun with a blacksmiths bellows attached!

>hunting, I thought they were still very low-powered compared to

Well, orignal sources state that the high power large bore weapons of
the late 18th and early 19th cent. were as powerful as the blackpowder
arms of the time... The french gave orders to kill on the spot any
captured austrians armed with Giradoni multi shot sniper air guns. these
were 
pumped up (the air res. was I think in the butt on these sniper rifles 
and had enought pressure for 7 to 10 shots at full power,extra screw 
on butstocks were carried by each sniper while the 
sporting arms used a screw on globe at a much lower pressure good 
for 3 or 5 shots... extra charged globes were carried when hunting)

good material on this topic is hard to come by as development into
high power air guns basicly stopped with the introduction of effective
repeating cartridge arms, smokeless powder, and the invention of 
silencers (the 2 main reasons for making these exceedling expensive, 
complex, and unreliable high power large bore air guns being fast 
repeating action and relitive quiet and lack of discharge smoke to 
reveal your position). allmost all further work being channeled into making
either cheap toy air guns, or expensive tackdrivers.

A gentelman in Missouri who is a machinist  is planning to build 
 replicas of the Giradoni and has already built a ledge lock 
large bore in .45.  On top of which he has a "mass produced" .375 cal Co2 
gun which he says will do about 130 ft-lbs, His Name is  
Dennis Quackenbush  he makes several large bore guns
of his own design as well as a  the above replica of the Giradoni.
His phone number is (417) 993-5262.  no further info yet.

I have had too much on my plate and have given this topic a place about
midway 
on my 'future projects list' at my current speed for doing for fun
machining
Projects (the damm for pay job stuff takes too much of my shop time...
but it does pay for some nice tous allong the wayI should get to it about
may of 2003

~R

Randolph Lee
Windshadow Engineering

---

From: [email-masked] (Roger Feeley)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 02:59:41 GMT

A good fried told me once that Louis and Clark had an air gun with
them on their expidition through the Louisiana purchase.  President
Jefferson asked them to evaluate it.  One of them (don't recall which)
was mistakenly shot in the rear end and the rifle was lost.  I
understand there is a group of historians (with not enough to do) that
are researching the fate of that rifle.

Roger

On 16 Dec 1996 02:44:51 GMT, Rick Cook <[email-masked]> wrote:

>Don Holly wrote:
>Depends on the kind of air rifle. Modern air rifles generally aren't much
>more powerful than a .22, but in the 18th Century they had some that were
>man-killers. The Austrian army had at least one regiment equipped with them
>during the Napoleoniac wars and the French thought so highly of them they
>ordered anyone caught carrying one to be executed.
>
>Not only was there no explosion and smoke, but the things were repeaters,
>firing a dozen shots or more before the air bottle needed to be changed.
>Standard equipment for a soldier was the rifle and two extra charged air
>bottles.
>
>There was additional work on these high-powered air rifles up through the
>19th Century (see for example 'The Return of Sherlock Holmes').
>
>These rifles used a compressed air bottle for power, often shaped to be the
>buttstock of the rifle. Militarily, their biggest drawback was you had to
>drag a large, clumsy man-powered compressor to the edge of the battlefield
>to recharge the bottles.
>
>--RC

---

From: [email-masked] (Georgie Stanford)
Date: 15 Dec 1996 18:39:04 GMT

Roger Loving ([email-masked]) wrote:
:     Airguns fascinate me too! I do not know anything about the bellows
: type, I always thought that the more powerful airguns used a higher
: pressure contained in a pressure reservoir. I do have a wierd
: quasi-airgun I bought from a German company years ago. It has a
: supplimental cylinder next to the receiver which is filled with ether.
: When you want more power, you push a lever and a small dose of ether is
: injected into the air chamber. The piston coming forward ignites the
: ether (think diesel) and roughly doubles the pellet velocity....22 cal.
:     Ever seen one of these?  
:                                 Roger L.

A word of warning. I used to work with ether when I was a lab technician 
for an experimental neurologist (he used it to painlessly kill lab rats). 
Ether is both toxic and explosive and an 8 ounce can will blow up an 
entire room if ignited by sparks, open flames, hot wires or SHAKING (!).
In a closed space just a tiny amount can snuff you by suffocation.

No flame please, just my opinion.

Georgie

---

From: Rick Cook <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:44:27 GMT

>piston type gun because the bellows would only need to be about .5 to 1

I think if you could post a more complete description of a bellows-type air
rifle it would be very interesting.

I've never heard of one of these things and the only air rifles I know of
that are powerful enough for hunting big game used a compressed air
container (ie, the 18th Century Austrian design and their non-military
offshoots.)

--RC

---

From: Rick Cook <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:44:51 GMT

--RC

---

From: Elliot Burke <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 21:17:34 -0800

>  I do have a wierd

>                                 Roger L.
I bet some other gas would work as well.  How about some butane and a
piezo electric igniter?  

Elliot Burke
HighTide Instruments
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Edelman)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 13:28:48 GMT

Elliot Burke ([email-masked]) wrote:
: >  I do have a wierd
: > quasi-airgun I bought from a German company years ago. It has a
: > supplimental cylinder next to the receiver which is filled with ether.
: > When you want more power, you push a lever and a small dose of ether is
: > injected into the air chamber. The piston coming forward ignites the
: > ether (think diesel) and roughly doubles the pellet velocity....22 cal.

: >                                 Roger L.
: I bet some other gas would work as well.  How about some butane and a
: piezo electric igniter?  

The problem is getting the right mixture. The Barakuda rifle used the 
ether to augment the spring power; the gun was basically spring powered,
the ether only adding a small percentage of power when it ignited from
the heat generated by the piston compressing the ether/air mix.

--mike

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 17:17:05 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Roger Feeley) writes:

>  One of them (don't recall which)
>was mistakenly shot in the rear end and the rifle was lost. 

I wonder if these were immediate sequence actions?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<VBG>

I can only imagine how it was lost!!!!!!!

Cecil in oK

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Edelman)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 13:24:26 GMT

Don Holly ([email-masked]) wrote:
: "David A. Holly" <[email-masked]> wrote:

: > I read, in Beeman's Airgun Digest, that
: >some of the old bellows type air rifles were powerful enough to hunt elk
: >with.  I think that a modern version of a bellows gun, with the bellows 

: What's a bellows type air rifle? 

: While I know people used to make air rifles which were used in
: hunting, I thought they were still very low-powered compared to
: firearms. Not true?

Not *quite* true.

The highest power guns today are "precharged pneumatics"  using a 
copressed air resevoir, as were the highest power guns of previous
centuries. The Austrian snipers that Napolean threatened to hang as 
assassins used such guns. Today's guns can put out 20-30ft/lbs of
energy, and there are a few capable of 100 ft/lbs.

That's low  in centerfire terms, but high in rimfire or black powder 
terms. 

The bellows guns weren't high powered. The modern equivalent would be
the more effiencient spring piston guns, some of which can produce
30 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. They'd make a good project for a skilled
machinist, particularly if you substituted (as does Theoben of England) a
compressed gas cylinder for the metal spring.

--mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael Edelman)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 13:26:50 GMT

Georgie Stanford ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Roger Loving ([email-masked]) wrote:
: :     Airguns fascinate me too! I do not know anything about the bellows
: : type, I always thought that the more powerful airguns used a higher
: : pressure contained in a pressure reservoir. I do have a wierd
: : quasi-airgun I bought from a German company years ago. It has a
: : supplimental cylinder next to the receiver which is filled with ether.
: : When you want more power, you push a lever and a small dose of ether is
: : injected into the air chamber. The piston coming forward ignites the
: : ether (think diesel) and roughly doubles the pellet velocity....22 cal.
: :     Ever seen one of these?  
: :                                 Roger L.

: A word of warning. I used to work with ether when I was a lab technician 
: for an experimental neurologist (he used it to painlessly kill lab rats). 
: Ether is both toxic and explosive and an 8 ounce can will blow up an 
: entire room if ignited by sparks, open flames, hot wires or SHAKING (!).
: In a closed space just a tiny amount can snuff you by suffocation.

The HW "Barakuda" gun used small glass ampules of ether which were crushed
*inside* the auxiliary cyliner. Pretty safe. The HW "Barakuda" pellet,
sold also as a Beeman under a different name, was developed to handle
the high energy of this gun.

--mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 09:31:51 -0500

>No flame please, just my opinion.

Waaay  back in my organic chem lab days, an ether fire was a fine and
dandy way to ruin your day.  Dang things could travel 8 or 10 feet
in a blink and the flames were invisible.  Ether's used a lot in
extractions and you _don't_ use open flames.  You boil it with a
heat lamp.  Still, it has a very low flash point and if you got
a piece of metal too hot ...

Just another reason I went into computers :-)

I don't ever  recall a problem with shaking it though.

There is a vague reference tickling around the grey cells about really
old ether forming unstable compounds that might be subject to shock.  I
seem to recall something about not using the stuff in the bottom of the
can.

-- 
Paul Amaranth          Tel: (810) 656-5975      Fax: (810) 656-6836
Aurora Group, Inc.     Rochester MI, USA    http://www.rust.net/auroragroup
[email-masked]          Consulting & Data Conversion Services

---

From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 14:02:13 GMT

>I bet some other gas would work as well.  How about some butane and a
    
    I think that one of the advantages of ether is that it is a liquid
at std. temp. and pressure. Butane might have it's own advantages
though....Now you've got me wondering about an air "machine gun" with
a "turbo" mode! I don't know why airguns facinate me so much; they
aren't very powerful compared to powder. I did see a shotgun made for
the bird hunters in the Phillipines. It was a pump-up type of about 
410 caliber. Single shot of course, and you loaded it with whatever
you had to fit a paper shot holder. Made for economy, not very pretty.
                                                    Roger L.

---

From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 14:28:35 GMT

Thanks for the warning about ether. Yes, it is obviously a hazard
if not treated cautiously. The airgun I mentioned doesn't hold very
much, I think less than 10 drops of liquid is the fluid capacity. This
seems to give enough gas for 25 to 35 enhanced shots. The holding and 
injection cylinder is typical German well-over-built type. All in all,
I don't worry about it. I bought the gun some years ago just out of
curiosity. In fact, I wrote the company and asked if they had some
laying around still for sale, since they made them in the early 1950's.
Surprisingly, they still had a few and shipped me one "on approval"!!
    Haven't fired it in years now. I used diesel starting ether for the
ether source. Heeding your warning, I think I will throw out my old can
of starting ether....I haven't even moved the can in 15 years and now I
am a little leery of that can. You did mention unstable compounds in
the bottom of the can.... thanks, it's not worth the risk.
                                                             Roger L.

---

From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 14:39:22 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Michael
>Elliot Burke ([email-masked]) wrote:
    (Roger Loving wrote)
>: >  I do have a wierd quasi-airgun I bought from a German company
years ago. It has a supplimental cylinder next to the receiver which is
filled with ether.<<<
        (Michael Edelman replies)
>ether to augment the spring power; the gun was basically spring
powered,>the ether only adding a small percentage of power when it
ignited from>the heat generated by the piston compressing the ether/air
mix.
>--mike<<<

    Yes, the power only goes up fractionally. Testing for penetration
and listening to time to impact - both very seat of pants - tell me
that the velocity is somewhere around 50% greater. By selecting a
heavier pellet (round ball) with the ether shots accuracy doesn't
suffer too much. Yes, it is basically a common spring-piston gun with
the add-on chamber. 
    In fact, what I had ment to say when we started this thread was
that the ether add-on looks to be a very simple device. A nice project
for the machine hobbiest who doesn't mind doing some calculations to
assure himself that his gun will handle the increased pressure.
                                                        Roger L.