Subject: SAE 10?

From: [email-masked] (Dave Matthews)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:47:55 GMT

The manual for my old Craftsman lathe calls for 
SAE 10 weight for most of the lube and Keystone
122 Outboard Gear Lube for the gears.  I assume 
that I can use any 90w something gear lube for
the gears but what is the current equiv for SAE 10?
Is this 3-in-1 weight?  The lathe is in excellent
shape and I don't want to screw it up.

Dave

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From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 13 Dec 1996 19:11:36 GMT

Dave Matthews ([email-masked]) wrote:
: The manual for my old Craftsman lathe calls for 
: SAE 10 weight for most of the lube and Keystone
: 122 Outboard Gear Lube for the gears.  I assume 
: that I can use any 90w something gear lube for
: the gears but what is the current equiv for SAE 10?
: Is this 3-in-1 weight?  The lathe is in excellent
: shape and I don't want to screw it up.

SAE #10 oil can still be obtained at auto parts stores, but it is getting
hard to find.  After I use up my current quart, I will probably buy 
a gallon of spindle oil from MSC or one of the machine tool suppliers.
This is used in the spindle bearings of my Atlas roller-bearing headstock
and my Bridgeport mill spindle.  I believe SAE #10 is the same as ISO
VG 22.

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From: GEMARS <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:15:31 -0800

> shape and I don't want to screw it up.

Dave,  Lubriplate Products offers a lube data pamphlet that should give 
you some confidence in lube selection.  Mine of 11/92 suggests that 
Lubriplate No. 2  ..."is a SAE20 oil for light general oil applications. 
Excellent for ring oiled bearings, wick feeds, bottle oilers, oil cups."

I got mine through a bearing distributor.

Good luck, GW

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From: [email-masked] (Jens)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 00:08:27 -0800

[email-masked](Roger Loving) wrote:

> I am beginning to
>wonder if we are not over-concerned with lube specs. It may be that we
>are out of date on our lube information. Modern oils have a tremendous
>operating range. It seems to me that the old time very narrow
>lubrication recommendations may need some revision.
>        My advice is to get a good light weight oil - either spindle or
>motor oil - clean the reservoir well, fill it up, and get on with the
>fun. 

AMEN !!!!!!

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From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 14 Dec 1996 16:21:09 GMT

>> shape and I don't want to screw it up.

    Dave, I may be starting a flame war here, but I just have to say
this: 
        I don't think that I have ever seen a metal wear failure that I
could attribute simply to the wrong type of oil. Most of my experience
is with IC motors, trannys, and industrial machinery, but it does cover
a lot of years. I've seen many failures with NO oil, water in the oil,
dirt in the oil, and even a few with too heavy of an oil (this is like
no oil). But it has occurred to me lately that I have never seen a
failure where the oil was of even approximently the right type and
weight. By right type I mean vegetable vs mineral and by right weight I
mean viscosity. I don't have experience with extreme conditions of
speed, loading, or temperature....which would be things like gas
turbines and locomotives...but on common machinery I am beginning to
wonder if we are not over-concerned with lube specs. It may be that we
are out of date on our lube information. Modern oils have a tremendous
operating range. It seems to me that the old time very narrow
lubrication recommendations may need some revision.
        My advice is to get a good light weight oil - either spindle or
motor oil - clean the reservoir well, fill it up, and get on with the
fun. 
            Putting on my flame-proof suit -     Roger Loving

---

From: "Henry P. Szostek" <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Dec 1996 19:14:57 GMT

Fitch Williams writes,
"Dad bought some special oil he kept in a glass jar for the SB 
lathe and shaper. I am using it as spindle oil. 

I happened to be at a friends shop one day and saw a glass jar on 
the shelf above the SB lathe . It bore a hand lettered label that 
read "Machine oil Special "  It was amber in color and very light 
viscosity.  He produced two glasses with an ice cube in each and 
dispensed some , It bore an aroma strikingly similar to Jack 
Daniels burbon.  and yes it was an excelent lubricant.  but we 
didnt pour it into the spindle cups.  Did you ever see where your 
dad poured his "Special oil" ?

Henry

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From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:34:23 GMT

[email-masked](Roger Loving) wrote:

>could attribute simply to the wrong type of oil. 

<sniped a lot of common sense>

>            Putting on my flame-proof suit -     Roger Loving          

I agree with you.  I bought some "spindle" oil and som "way
lube", so labeled, in 1 gallon plastic jugs.    When I ran
out, I bought some more.  Now on third gallon of "way lube",
have almost 3 quarts of second gallon of spindle oil left.
Been using the way lube in the pump oiler of my mill and on
everything but the rotating parts of my shaper and lathes.
I put them in different pump oil cans so as not to mix them
up.

Spindle oil on all rotating parts, all machines.  

The "way lube" seems to be more stickey, so I try not to use
it on rotating parts.  I use it sparingly on lathe ways.
When cutting the flood coolent cutting oil swamps out the
way oil anyway.

Dad bought some special oil he kept in a glass jar for the
SB lathe and shaper.  I am using it as spindle oil.  

The Model A folks have a similar tendancy to dig into oil in
almost painful detail.  I ran SAE 30 Penzoil in mine for
years, no problems that I knew of.  Fellow who bought it
>from  me had done the same thing.

The manual for my 7.3 L nonturbo Ford Diesel specifically
recommends against multiviscosity oil.  So I don't use it.
My Cummins powered Dodge wants 15W-40.  So that is what I
use.  I forget what the 6.5L Turbo Chevy Diesel wanted
except that it was multiviscosity also.  Compared to these
engines, a lathe headstock seems to be really light duty.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 19:05:22 GMT

I use tractor hydraulic fluid. Its just 10W non detergent oil as far as
I can tell. It might have some antifoaming additives but I don't think
that they will hurt anything on the lathe. The best thing is that you can
get 5 gallons for about $25 which is a lifetime supply for the average
home shop.

   Wayne Cook

Quality is like buying oats,
        if you want nice, clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price.

However, 
        if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through
the horse...
                          
That comes a little cheaper...

---

From: [email-masked] (Geoffrey Brown)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:38:26 GMT

Why not just buy 10w spindle oil.  I bought mine from McMaster Carr 
for $6-$8 /gallon.  They'll ups it and charge it to a card.

Geoffrey Brown

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] 
says...

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From: [email-masked] (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 20:39:01 GMT

Attached is my FAQ entry about oils. My 9" SB lathe calls for SAE 10
oil, too - I use South Bend's spindle oil, CE1600.

[Changes from the first time I posted it are marked with change bars...]

This is certainly a frequently asked question!  The first answer is to
use whatever the manufacturer's manual suggests, presuming you have
a manual for your machine.

|Feed-screw threads, half nuts, back gears and similar are usually
|lubricated with a moderately heavy oil such as Vactra 2 or 3, or grease if
|protected from chips and swarf.  Some suggest a mixture of oil and STP
|oil treatment. (South Bend recommends the same oil as used on the ways.)

Beds and "ways" are often treated with special oils, called "way oils".
|ISO 68 (medium weight).  Examples:  Exxon Febis K 68, Shell
Tona T-68, Sun way lub 1180, Mobil Vactra No 2, Texaco Way lube 68,
|Gulf Gulfway 68, Chevron Vistac 68X.

Spindle bearings call for "spindle oil" such as Exxon Nutto H32, Shell
Tellus V32, BP HLP32, Castrol Hyspin AWS32, Mobil Velocite and Mobil
DTE 32 (in this case the 32 is the ISO VG32 spec, about the same as SAE
10-weight, and is what Myford recommends for their lathes).  ISO grade
|22 is also used (it's what South Bend recommends, for instance).

All three types are available from the better supply outfits,
such as MSC.  Remember that the money you spend on proper oils will
be a lot less than the cost of replacing the machine!

|That's a lot of names, but how do you choose? Probably the first
|thing to do is follow the manufacturer's recommendations, if you
|can find them. 

South Bend, for example, recommends four different lubricants for
their 9" and 10" lathes:  CE1671 bed way lube, CE1603 medium machine
oil, CE-1600 light machine oil, and CE1625 Teflon grease.  These are
|available from South Bend, and the discussion and tables below
|should allow you to choose an equivalent oil available from an
|industrial supply house. The Teflon grease is available from
|Roy Dean Products in Dearborn, MI, as part number DE112.

|Failing a manufacturer's recommendation, the key issue, I believe, is
|the viscosity.  There are a number of ways of describing viscosity,
|most of them confusing. We will now take a small sidebar to try to
|remove some of the confusion:

Machinery's Handbook has a nice section that goes into the different
kinds of oil performance for lubrication and how viscosity changes
with temperature. But it's not really detailed enough to make
a practical choice.

Most people are familiar with the SAE viscosity scale, because most
people have bought oil for their cars. What isn't immediately apparent
is that there are two SAE scales, both in common use: one for crankcase
oils, and one for gear oils! There is an ISO scale (VG numbers) and there
is the Saybolt scale. Let's start with the Saybolt scale, which is
measured with something called the "Saybolt Universal Viscometer":

In said viscometer, the oil flows through a tupe 0.1765 cm in 
diameter, 1.225 cm long, under and average head of 7.36 cm, from
a vessel 2.975 cm diameter. The time in seconds required for 60 cc of
oil to flow through the tube is the viscosity in seconds Saybolt.
The specification is typically given at a particular temperature, 
such as 100 degF or 210 degF. (Something tells me that the numbers
in the description above were originally English units, not metric.)

With that description of Saybolt Universal Seconds (SUS) in mind, 
let's look at the SAE scales. First, for the crankcase scale:

	SAE	SUS @ 100F	SUS @ 210 F
	5	92		38.5
	10	165		44
	20	340		54
	30	550		64
	40	850		77
	50	1200		93

In addition, "Mark's Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers",
Eighth Edition, lists the following for Crankcase Oils:

	SAE	SUS @ 210 F
	20	45 min - 58 max
	30	58 min - 70 max
	40	70 min - 85 max
	50	85 min - 110 max

But it goes on to show the following for gear and transmission oils:

	SAE	SUS at 210 F
	75	40 min
	90	49 min
	85	63 min
	90	74 min - 120 max
	140	120 min - 200 max
	350	200 min

So you can see that the viscosity at 210 F for SAE 80W gear oil is
about the same as SAE 20W crankcase oil.

Finally, there's the ISO VG scale. From perusing a number of Mobil
oil data sheets, it appears that the ISO VG value of an oil is 
|exactly its viscosity in centiStokes at 40 degC. Unfortunately,
|the relationship between cSt at 40 deg C and SUS at 100 degF is
|not a linear one. But you can find a fairly complete table
|of tradeoffs at http://www.bconnex.net/~noco/nocovisc.htm. 
|Here's an abbreviated version that relates cSt and SUS @ 100 degF:
|
|	cSt  SUS at 100 degrees F
|
|	 10  58.91
|	 15  77.39
|	 20  97.77
|	 25 119.3
|	 30 141.3
|	 35 163.7
|	 40 186.3
|	 45 209.1
|	 50 232.1
|	 55 255.2
|	 60 278.3
|	 65 301.4
|	 70 324.4
|	 75 347.6
|	 80 370.8
|	 85 393.9
|	 90 417.1
|	 95 440.3
|	100 463.5
|
|(Taken from ASTM Table 1, D2161-63T)
|
|Also, SUS at any temperature is SUS at 100F multiplied by
|1 + (t-100)0.000064
|
|ie 58.91 SUS at 100F is 58.91x(1.007)= 59.32 at 212 F
|
To pull this all together, let's look at some specific examples. 
Above, we mentioned the South Bend recommended oils. Not only does
SBL give part numbers, but they give viscosities in SUS at 100 degF:

Usage		SBL p/n		SUS @ 100 F	ISO VG 	SAE (crankcase)
|light spindle	CE1600		100		21	5
|medium machine	CE1602		150-240		30-55	10-20
|way lube	CE1603		250-500		57-100	20-30

|Thus, a good substitute for SBL CE1600 would be Mobil Velocite No. 10,
|which is an ISO VG 22 spindle oil. Mobil Vactra No. 2, ISO VG 68, is 
|probably a good substitute for SBL CE1603 - it matches the viscosity
|and is formulated as a way lube (has appropriate coolant separability 
|and corrosion resistance).

Now, multigrade motor lubricants are not recommended as machine oils.
This is for two reasons: 1. Motor oils have additive packages that are 
designed to avoid corrosion and condensation problems that are unique
to the heat cycle and high-temp operation of an engine, problems
that are not found in machine tools. 2. Modern motor oils have detergents
that keep the contaminants in suspension (so they can be removed by
the oil filter) - most machine tools do not have a filter system,
so the contaminants will be circulated around to the bearing surfaces
rather than falling out of suspension to the bottom of the gear case.

That being said, there are several people on the list who are 
very happy using Mobil 1 motor oil as spindle and countershaft 
lubricants. The 5W-30 oil is approximately the right viscosity for
|spindle bearings, and the 15W-50 is heavy enough for countershafts
and gearboxes. The final choice is up to you, of course. Machine
oils have their own special additive packages geared towards the
requirements of machining.

Now that you've made a decision about what oil to use, how do
you oil it? Most lubrication charts assume production use,
and give oiling intervals accordingly. I prefer to spend five 
minutes oiling the machine every time I use it, just to make sure
everything is wet and topped off.

A suggestion I've read is to oil lathe ways before using, to clean off
dust/grunge that may have accumulated since you last used it.  After
work is finished, wipe off but leave a film for rust prevention.

Elsewhere we mentioned the book "A Brief treatise on Oiling Machine
Tools" (Guy Lautard) but nobody's posted a review yet.