Subject: Re: uses for engine valves ???

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 04:46:56 GMT

Richard W. Klopp ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Be careful. You don't want to cut open sodium-filled valves. These have
: hollow stems filled with sodium metal that melts at running temperature.
: The liquid sodium sloshes up and down and helps to transfer heat away from
: the valve head. Sodium burns violently on contact with air. I don't know
: whether they're still used, but I know that Dodge used them in a 271 CI
: flathead 6 that was in my dad's '63 WM-300 Power Wagon pickup. (An Army
: truck derivative--what I'd give to have one of those again! On the other
: hand, what a piece of junk! A real lemon from the day it came home from
: the dealer.) There are probably visual clues to indicate whether you're
: dealing with a sodium-filled valve or not, but I don't know them.

I don't know about visual clues, except that the stem may be larger in
diameter.  Almost all commercial diesel engines have sodium filled valves,
and most turbocharged engines, automotive engine-conversion boat engines,
and aircraft engines have sodium cooled valves.  Some truck engines also
have sodium cooled valves.  Definitely don't want to set one of these on
fire.  Grind into it, it gets hot, dip it in water, and BOOM!  Or use a
welding torch and ignote the sodium in air!  Definitely a bad move.  But,
ordinary car valves from non-supercharged, gasoline engines are not likely
to have sodium.  Otherwise, they are a very hard, heat tolerant steel,
capable of taking a high finish.

---

From: [email-masked] (Randolph Lee)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:48:00 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Ray Breakwell) wrote:

> Found a bucket of car engine exhaust and intake valves at the scrap yard.
> Too good to waste, eh? Great steel!
> 
> What IS this steel that valves are made ?
> 
> How does it handle forging/annealing/re-hardening/re-tempering/ machining?
> 
> As I said above, too good to waste.  So what have some of you used engine
> valves for?
> 
> ANY comments on the above will be welcomed....either in this group or by
email.

You might want to be a touch careful.... I know that the exhaust valves in
the race engines by dad used in the late 50s early 60s were filled with
Na... thats right pure sodium metal... this was for improved heat transfer
I think... but I don't like to think about cutting into one with a hot
lathe bit... perhaps Mr. Harvey or someone else with more recient
knowledge can let us know if the use of  Na in valves ever became common
and how to tell from outside marks if a valve is of that type....

I have used large valves from big deisels as bases for things like home
made scribers... and a lathe tool hight gauge...

~R

---

From: [email-masked] (Andy Dingley)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:45:41 GMT

The moving finger of [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin) having written:

>Let's get our chemistry correct here.  

A good idea !

>Sodium will not burn in air.  

You _sure_ about this ?   If it doesn't, then it does a pretty good
approximation of it !  Admittedly it doesn't spontaneously ignite in
air, but if you get it hot (spark from a grinding wheel will do it)
then it _will_ burn in air.

>Sodium reacts with water to form sodium hydroxide (lye) and hydrogen.  

Yes, it's a good idea not to get sodium anywhere near water.

>If you cut them open, do it under oil (slush pump on the lathe, maybe) 

Aargh !!   What's in your suds tank ?  A water-based emulsion by any
chance ?  Dump sodium into that and your lathe is going to be a warm
sticky mess on the floor.

>(not likely these days, IMHO).  

Sodium valves disappeared in the '60s as stellite facings became more
long-lived, but they returned in the '80s with turbocharged &
supercharged engines. A number of Lancia Deltas and various high
performance Japanese cars use them.

I can't see any convenient way of re-using sodium valves. If I wanted
sodium I'd buy it.  In extremis, I'd use a guillotine in an oil bath
to cut them in half, then melt out the sodium under oil.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 05:38:53 GMT

J. Kimberlin ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Let's get our chemistry correct here.  Sodium will not burn in air.  
: Sodium reacts with water to form sodium hydroxide (lye) and hydrogen.  It 
: is the hydrogen that burns....If you cut them open, do it under oil 
: (slush pump on the lathe, maybe) and you will see any sodium, if there 
: (not likely these days, IMHO).  On the other hand, if it is not very 
: humid where you are, you don't need the oil.  If you find sodium valves 
: and still want them, or the sodium for some reason, put the valves in hot 
: oil (look up the melting point in a handbook) and let it melt out.  The 
: sodium will collect up in a ball at the bottom of your oil and when cool, 
: just keep it under oil.

Yes, let's!  Sodium WILL most definitely burn in air.  It will not self-
ignite in air, but if started with a torch, hot cutting tool, etc., it
will sustain a mean fire in plain air!  This is one of the metals which
can cause the dreaded 'heavy metal fire'.  It does take a bit of heat,
however to start it, but cutting tools can make very fine dust of a metal
on occasion, and that dust can ignite very easily.  The melting point of
Sodium is 97 degrees C.

As for what goes on when sodium burns in combination with water, the
reaction is extremely exothermic.  The burning hydrogen (in air) is
a minor byproduct of the reaction.  In fact, I think you will smell
ammonia, if you are fool enough to try this.  I had a friend who
experimented with magnesium.  While burning powdered magnesium, he had
a small (2 cm) ball of glowing powdered Mg, with unburned Mg on the inside
protected by the ash on the outside.  he then poured a glass of water on
it.  It was spectacular!  There was a large blue-white flash, a huge
puff of smoke, white-hot streamers shot all over the room, and the smell
of ammonia was unmistakable.  the hot, free Hydrogen wanted to combine
with anything available, and after the Oxygen in the immediate area was
consumed, it grabbed the Nitrogen in the air to make ammonia.

This is similar to the Sodium reaction, except that the sodium will start
the reaction without any heat being applied, and the flash will be
orange-tinted instead of blue-white.  

As for cutting valves open with a tool with flood coolant, most coolants
contain WATER!!!!  If you try this, definitely make sure there is NO water
in your coolant!  And also make sure it is a coolant that is rated to be
used on magnesium - many aren't, and I think that applies to sodium, too.
They don't even mention it, because few people machine sodium - thank God!

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 05:42:20 GMT

Blake Malkamaki ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Old valves make great tent stakes.  People won't trip over them!  Don't
: hammer on sodium filled valves!!  I doubt if any moder automotive valves
: would have sodium.  Industrial or big truck diesel valves might, but only
: in the exhaust valves.  If they are just run-of-mill car valves, I would
: not worry.  Just use them.

Right, only exhaust valves would have sodium in it.  but turebocharged
cars almost ALL have sodium cooled valves.  With a turbo, the exhaust
temperatures get really high.

If you can build a turbocharged diesel and make it run more than an hour
on the highway powering a truck without sodium in the valves, there are
plenty of people who would like to talk to you about it.

---

From: [email-masked] (Rick Cook)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 07:05:49 GMT

Max ben-Aaron wrote:
>I don't know for sure but I think that some valves are hollow and are
>filled with something noxious under pressure, so it behoves you to be
>careful.

Sodium and definitely bad news.

Some blacksmiths use valves for making small tools.

--RC

---

From: [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 16:43:10 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
>on occasion, and that dust can ignite very easily.  The melting point of

Sodium is like putty, it doesn't make dust.

You are causing yourself to be right by setting your parameters where you 
want them.  I did not say to light the sodium with a torch.  Nor did I 
say to melt it.  In an ordinary, ambient temperature, water free, mixture 
of gases such as those found in air, sodium will not self-ignite, and 
will not burn.

>it.

This is called bait and switch.  Mg is not Na.  The only product of the 
reaction between Na and H20 is NaOH and H2, the H2 burns with oxygen in 
the air to form H2O, otherwise known as water.

  It was spectacular!  There was a large blue-white flash, a huge
>orange-tinted instead of blue-white.  

I guess I don't follow your argument, what's the point?

>They don't even mention it, because few people machine sodium - thank God!

If you are in a shop and don't know what is in your cutting fluid, then I 
guess you shouldn't be in the shop.  I specifically said that sodium 
reacts with water.  That should be a clue to any decent machinist that a 
soluble oil suds should not be used.  There are plenty of plain cutting 
oil systems around.

There are many metals that will burn.  Magnesium and Aluminum are among 
the most common.  Mg is used for flash powder and in fireworks.  Al is 
used in thermit welding.  Virtually any metal that can be finely powdered 
and blown in the air can be lit off at its melting point.

JerryK

---

From: Jack <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 17:14:18 -0700

Max ben-Aaron wrote:
> 
> High their:
> 
> I have used one to make a chuck stop for my lathe.  The steel was
> harder than the hobs of hell.
> 
> Max ben-Aaron
> ....Yep, Uhuh, and Yessir!  Ford truck valves as used in the 330-370-391 
engines are sodium-filled; this stuff is *highly* unstable, 
unpredictable, dangerous; all that good stuff....
> =======================================================================
> 
> In <[email-masked]>
> [email-masked] (Ray Breakwell) writes:
> >
> >
> >G'day....
> >
> >ANY comments on the above will be welcomed....either in this group or
> by email.
> >
> >
> >....-Ray.  <  [email-masked]  >
> >
> >--
> >" ...Perfect speed..is being there. " ...... Chiang.
> >
> >"..The gull sees farthest who flies highest." ....... Sully.

---

From: [email-masked] (Ray Breakwell)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 06:04:25 +1000

email.
> ....-Ray.  <  [email-masked]  >

And didn't I get some information! Thank you all those who replied in
email ( I answered all) and those who replied here......I _will_ take care
carving into potentially sodium filled valves. (never heard of 'em till
now!)

Catch you around.....

......-Ray.

---

From: Clarence Noyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 30 Jun 1996 21:29:40 GMT

Wasn't kerosene the fluid of choice for storing sodium in the chem lab in 
highschool 55 years ago?

"CC"

---

From: [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin)
Date: 1 Jul 1996 18:57:06 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
>Wasn't kerosene the fluid of choice for storing sodium in the chem lab in 

Yes.