Subject: Re: Wonderful, but expensive, tool for newbies!

From: [email-masked]
Date: 4 Dec 1996 18:33:10 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
writes:

>Consider this. If you don't use the methods that you find difficult how
do
>you expect to become an experienced machinist? It's the repitition of
>doing the same difficult, task over and over again, getting a little
>better at it each time, that will make you an experienced machinist. Just

>my $.02.

That's what I believe also Bill. When I get into a 'sticky' situation I
first grab the catalogs for help I can buy. Then I realize it is going to
take days to get the part even if it can really help. I eventually get
back to wondering how it was done in the 'old days' when all of the trick
tools were not even invented yet.

Invariably I arrive at a method that does fine and is used many more times
as the years fly by. A much greater level of satisfaction too.

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (George Carlson)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 13:36:37 GMT

I have a coax type indicator but I really don't like it that much.
I'd rather use a test indicator in a Zero-It type of holder.  This is
much more accurate because the measurement more direct.  It can never
be as accurate as a test indicator because of the reference surfaces
and linkages required.  The coax device also takes longer to set-up
and requires alot of spindle to workpiece clearance. Using a longer
feeler arm divides the sensitivity and if the surface is even a little
rough, forget it.  Using a test indicator and dividing the error will
put you on center much faster and more accurately.
 
George Carlson   KC5RCC
Geotek Design Services
[email-masked]

---

From: "PyroWare" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:51:37 -0600

OK I'll start the thread with a relatively expensive bit of tooling which
looks great on paper but fell short in use.  Maybe others had the same
experience... that is the R8 shank collet set which uses, I believe, ER-25
style collets.  I bought one of these when I bought my vertical mill and
was numb to the prices as they accumulated.  I guess the idea is to save
wear and tear on the mill spindle by sacrificing the tooling with repeated
tool changes and tightening rather than using standard R8 collets.

Here is what I found...

The collet set and shank consumes valuable Z axis space.  Changing collets
requires a spanner wrench and some awkward contortions, rather than a
quick flip of the drawbar with a box wrench.  Using small end mills is
tough because the overhang from the collet nose blocks quite a bit of view
of the workpiece.  This same overhang often contacts the workpiece as well
when milling deeper pockets and such.

I don't believe I would feel this way with a TRUE quick change system
whereby tools are "loaded" into little collet modules, and are then
inserted onto the shank with a quick hand motion.

Anyway, I have one of these for sale (Asian, Taiwan I believe, but nice
quality) or trade!  Anyone have a small "Kurt" vise (3" or 4") kicking
about?  I will toss in some $$ too.

Kurt Bjorn

> As a relative neophyte, I'd LOVE to have a coax indicator.  I can't 
> 
> 1) How to do things with or without the fancy gadgets
> 
> 2) Which fancy gadgets are useful
> 
> 3) Which fancy gadgets are more trouble than they are worth
> 
> 4) Which fancy gadgets are complete junk
> 
> In the woodworking newsgroups, there is a constant war between the 
> 'neanderthals' (who do all their woodworking with handtools) and the 
> 'Normites' (after Norm Abrams, who's TV program is a showcase for the 
> latest laser guided miter saw (no kidding)).  I'd hope we are above that

> sort of sniping. 
> Doug White

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Drumm)
Date: 7 Dec 1996 13:56:07 GMT

In message <[email-masked]> -
[email-masked] Dec 1996 17:53:36 GMT writes:
:->I can indicate an edge in the milll or I can use and edge finder to do it.
:->I use the edge finder every time. To suggest that we toss everything but a
:->file is purile.
:->
:->I, for one, was not chastizing, merely pointing out that these things were
:->done manually once, so why not again.
:->

I agree Peter. The first time I centered something in a four jaw chuck
took forever. OK, maybe only an hour. After a bit of practice, it now
takes less than a minute for most pieces, and I didn't have to buy any
special equipment. As the saying goes, Practice makes purrfect :)

[email-masked] <http://www.dwave.net/~pdrumm>
Using OS/2 Warp 4!
Wausau, WI. 44d 58m 00s N x 89d 36m 45s W
All opinions are mine alone, you go get your own!

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 7 Dec 1996 00:20:47 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Paul Amaranth) writes:

>Gets to be a real pain when the indicator dial is aimed at the bottom
>of the chip tray.
>
>

For these circumstances I keep a mirror in my toolbox.

I have a loooooog list of tools that I need, therefore, I can't waste
money on that don't expand my capabilities. Redundancy is fine for NASA, 
I can't afford  it.

Bill Rittner

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 7 Dec 1996 00:20:51 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Jim
Waggener) writes:

>Ohyeah?...is it true Jim, that Sherline's are now 50% off for
>Christmas?  If not true, please post a follow-up   <G>
>
>
>

I heard it was 60% <G>.

Bill Rittner

---

From: Eric Meyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 21:17:40 -0500

> >Christmas?  If not true, please post a follow-up   <G>

60% I thought it was 100% and hand delivered down the chimney *<|8-#)>
hohoho 9 reindeer butts, 24 hours AAIIEEEEEE

seriously - order by the 25th as per his web page and it's 15%

---

From: [email-masked] (Gary Lowell)
Date: 7 Dec 1996 01:00:25 GMT

Hello -

I just acquired my first lathe, a 9" SB, last week.  One of the
first things that I'll need are tool holders and bits.  Any
recomendations as to what's needed to get started ?  The SB
has a latern style toolpost.  Any other basic tools that
on needs beyond a scale and calipers ?  Despite the subject
line, I'd prefer to avoid the expensive tools for the moment.

Thanks,
Gary Lowell
[email-masked]

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 19:59:31 -0700

Rich Klopp wrote:
> ...... Laying out was a royal pain using a
> combination square and a scriber. Now I see what I was missing. I would be
> hard pressed to give up my surface plate and height gage. Same goes for
> the calipers--beats the hell out of a vernier.
> 
> If you're turning with a dead center in the tailstock, do yourself a favor
> and get a ball bearing live center. Throw out the flimsy rocker toolpost
> and get an Aloris style.
> 
> Buy a little stone to hone your lathe tools after grinding. It really does
> help. Get a magnifier and use it a lot, even if your eyes are young.
> 
> --
> Rich Klopp

Yay-Rich.....  AMEN.  The old folkss rode horses to town (weekly)too.
Cooked with a wood (or straw) cook stove, waited for the iceman
to cometh, etc., etc...  I love Frank Mcleans digital height gage
that uses my $60 digital caliper...

-- 
Paul in AJ AZ  NRA Endowment Member

Checkout the Metal Web News at:
new address (11/23/96)

http://www.ten.k12.tn.us/~wgray

Checkout the FAQ at:
http://PLAINS.UWYO.EDU/%7Emetal/index.html

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Waggener)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 02:58:29 GMT

[email-masked](Dave Ficken) wrote:

> Greetings,
>Jim Harvey called me today and asked me to post a message for him.
>It seems his system crashed big time and he won't be able to post the
>NG or answer Email for a while. TIA for your patience.

>Dave Ficken

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 05:18:28 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

>In article <[email-masked]>,
>[email-masked] (Chester A. Roberts, Jr.) writes:

>>My frustration angst has dropped dramatically and I no
>>longer fear having to re-center a workpiece.

>So what do you use to accurately find the edge of the work piece?

>Bill

I use an edge finder.  They are inexpensive and very easy to
use.

Fitch

---

From: "PyroWare" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:43:32 -0600

I have to disagree with you guys who feel we should "rough it" in order to
learn.  I have a coax indicator also... I use it in my vertical miller.  I
find it absolutely indispensable and a wonderful time saver.

According to your philosophy, anything other than a metal file is a
luxury.  I guess I should ditch my machine tools.

I think guys who discuss new tools should be able to post their
discoveries so that other folks can learn as well without fear of
chastisement... that is the whole idea :-)

Kurt Bjorn

---

From: [email-masked] (Rich Klopp)
Date: 6 Dec 1996 21:37:59 GMT

Since this thread seems to have shifted to include a discussion of all
worthwhile gadgets for newbies, I'll throw in my $.02.

As a kid growing up in my Dad's basement shop, I had access to neither a
surface plate nor dial calipers. Laying out was a royal pain using a
combination square and a scriber. Now I see what I was missing. I would be
hard pressed to give up my surface plate and height gage. Same goes for
the calipers--beats the hell out of a vernier.

-- 
Rich Klopp

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: 9 Dec 1996 19:21:21 GMT

My contribution to the expensive, but useful tool set:  A surface plate.
Actually, mine wasn't all that expensive; two of the local surplus places
(Triangle and RA Enterprises) get rather highly modified ones all the
time.  Mine came from Triangle, and there's a sort-of-convenient 4"
diameter hole in the southwest region of the plate.  The rest of the
plate has some nicely countersunk threaded inserts that I haven't yet
found a use for.

In all, it was a decent way to get a decent sized, good plate (about
18" x 24", not sure of the surface roughness, but I haven't found any
warp in it with my current tools.) for $75.  Of course, I've been
lusting after the 3' x 3' surface plates with stands, but I've been
able to resist, so far.  

Pete Brooks

---

From: [email-masked] (Doug White)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 96 23:29:09 GMT

Keywords: 
>chastisement... that is the whole idea :-)

Oh Goody!  Can we start a new thread on 'When _I_ learned to work metal, 
I had to use my own teeth!'?

As a relative neophyte, I'd LOVE to have a coax indicator.  I can't 
justify the expense of one of the US made Blakes, and have always wonder 
if the foreign copies were any good.  I can't justify the expense of one 
of those either, but if I'm going to fantasize, it's a little easier.  I 
also appreciate the skill (and patience) required to do things 'the old 
fashioned way'.  I have a few gadgets that are either terminal overkill 
for a home shop, or just aren't as wonderful in practice as the look in 
the catalog.  This newsgroup is a great place to develop a feel for:

Doug White

---

From: "PyroWare" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:40:18 -0600

The coax indicator would seem to me to be worthless for setup in a
four-jaw... I do exactly what you fellows are doing, namely indicate by
hand, move jaws, etc.  I wouldn't do it any other way.  But for setups in
the vertical mill, it is a whole 'nother story.  Truly centering a round
piece beneath the spindle to well below a thou takes 30 seconds with a
coax indicator.  With edge finders and normal indicators it is a pain in
the butt.

I think the idea is to selectively choose among "new" tooling those items
which are so darn neat that they will have a valuable place in our shops
for years to come.  I truly believe the coax indicator is one of them.  We
also need to point out those tools which look good but have limited
application for the average shop.

Kurt Bjorn

> 
> Don't know if you mean me, but I was outlining the fact that I can
usually
> achieve the same end result without the wait for the equipment to
arrive.
> I can indicate an edge in the milll or I can use and edge finder to do
it.
> I use the edge finder every time. To suggest that we toss everything but
a
> file is purile.
> 
> I, for one, was not chastizing, merely pointing out that these things
were
> done manually once, so why not again.
> 
> By all means, if you have the coax, use it, advocate and laud it's
> benefits, but allow us older farts the right to say how we use our head
> instead of pocket books to achieve the same thing.
> 
> Peter
> Now where did I put the MSC catalog?
>

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 07:36:33 -0700

> I use an edge finder.  They are inexpensive and very easy to

I just sprung for a Starrett edge finder ($16) and a Starrett wiggler
($28) set.
Day and night from the cheeeeepies I have.  Took a while to make the
move-but.

Checkout the FAQ at:

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth)
Date: 6 Dec 1996 08:56:12 -0500

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Doug White) writes:
>fashioned way'.

The PIM MetalWorking Book two has a design for a home-made coax
indicator. It's not all that hard to make, although you do need a
tenths indicator for it and, of course, it's utility is directly
proportional to your skill and care in making it.  I've been looking at
that project, but there hasn't been the time, so I have to do it the
old-fashioned way.

-- 
Paul Amaranth          Tel: (810) 656-5975      Fax: (810) 656-6836
Aurora Group, Inc.     Rochester MI, USA    http://www.rust.net/auroragroup
[email-masked]          Consulting & Data Conversion Services

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 14:16:54 GMT

>[email-masked]

You will need access to a good level to get your lathe set
up.

After that:

A dial indicator with a set of "points" (little screw on
feet to adapt it for different tasks) and magnetic base
holder, a set of micrometers up to about 4" (you don't have
to start with Starrett, there are some totally usable
imported ones, just look them over carefully), dial caliper,
6 and 12" steel rulers, telescoping bore gage, and 6" bench
grinder (you will replace the tables on anything you get, so
just be sure it is balanced - smooth running - and pay as
litle as you can - throw away the wheels that come with it
if its a cheap Chinese unit, and get a pair of Norton wheels
or equivelent).

For the lathe itself, you will need centers (preferably a
ball bearing live center for the tail stock), 3 and 4 jaw
chucks, some 5/16 HSS tool bit blanks, and the book "how to
run a lathe".  Face plate and a plate to drive lathe dogs
are very handy - so are lathe dogs but don't buy them until
you need them.  You will need some oil and two pump oil cans
that are different colors or labeled - one for spindle oil,
one for way oil.  Chris K. has published the definitive
posting on that subject so I will leave that to him.

I'd also suggest that you pick up a 3/4 " piece of precision
ground shafting, aka drill rod, about 30 inches long.  It
will be *straight* and you can use it to check out your
lathe and true it up.  With out a master level it is about
the only way to get the lathe set up right.  Even with a
master level it is the final step.

Find a steel supplier or local shop that has odds and ends
of shafting, and other bits of steel.  Try to get some 1018
or 1212 steel to practice turning with.  

you will find a small paint brush, say 1" wide, and a tin
can with some curring oil in the bottom to be very handy,
especially when cutting threads.

Get "Steno" pad, or a spiral book with quadrille ruled
paper, pencil, a small plastic ruler, and pocket calculator
(engineering model with trig functions) to keep handy.  Use
the pad to track your progress an you learn to turn to a
specific finished diameter within a tolerance you set ahead
of time.  Tjhe process of keeping the log will teach you a
lot about your lathe and how it performs.  You can make
friends with it a lot faster that way.

Beyond that, study your projects and make a list of the
tools you will need, and buy them as you need them.

I'd also suggest you subscribe to home Shop Machinest, and
send $1.00 to Metal Lathe Accessories for their list of kits
of castings to make accessories for your lathe.  The quality
of the castings is excellent.  The "T" slotted cross slide
can be obtained already machined.  With that you can
progressively make the rest of their accessories right on
your lathe. 

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 6 Dec 1996 17:53:36 GMT

>chastisement... that is the whole idea :-)

Don't know if you mean me, but I was outlining the fact that I can usually
achieve the same end result without the wait for the equipment to arrive.
I can indicate an edge in the milll or I can use and edge finder to do it.
I use the edge finder every time. To suggest that we toss everything but a
file is purile.

I, for one, was not chastizing, merely pointing out that these things were
done manually once, so why not again.

Peter

---

From: Bart Smaalders <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 14:26:35 -0800

I bought the same rig, and put it on a electronics rack about 36" high 
and put that on computer grade casters... the hole has come in handy a
few times, but so far the rack cabinet is just storage space...

- Bart

-- 
Bart Smaalders			Solaris Clustering	SunSoft
[email-masked]		(415) 786-5335		MS UMPK17-301
http://playground.sun.com/~barts			2550 Garcia Ave
							Mt View, CA 94043-1100

---

From: Glenn Day <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 07:01:11 -0800

Doug White wrote:

> justify the expense of one of the US made Blakes, and have always wonder
<snip>
> Doug White

As far as the coxial indicator goes one possibility is to make one. 
There have been articles in HSM and there are plans in one of the
Bedside Reader series also.
Glenn