Subject: Help: Machinist needs laundry suggestion...

From: [email-masked] (Chester A. Roberts, Jr.)
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:04:54 GMT

Just got my "new" used lathe (Southbend 14.5 x 6 ft).  Made the
mistake of turning it on wearing one of my best shirts. (Don't
tell my wife!)  Anyhow, it splattered something on me that is
essentially black.  Think it may be a combo of oil/grease/carbon?
I've tried the following to clean the spots:
   1) Shaklee Basic-H: nothing.
   2) Hand cleaner: slight lightening.
   3) Lighter fluid: nothing.
   4) Kerosene: nothing.
   5) Bleach mixed with baking soda (DiDi 7 substitute): nothing
   6) Lacquer thinner: nothing.
   7) Full wash cycle: nothing.
Can these spots ever be cleaned?
   Thank you...Chet Roberts ([email-masked])
P.S.: Yes, I know it was stupid...but I've done even dumber
stuff.... ; )

---

From: PPIERCE <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 09:24:05 -0700

Paul Amaranth wrote:
> 
> In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Chester A. Roberts, Jr.) writes:
> >
> >mistake of turning it on wearing one of my best shirts. .......
> ........for me is to rub in some of the
> heavy-duty waterless handcleaner (right now, I have some of the citrus
> stuff in an orange container).  Work it in, then wash it out with soap
> and rinse.  Get out most of the water and repeat until clean.  Then throw
> it in the wash with Wisk.  Pre-treating and letting it soak a while may
> be necessary.

We use ERA.  Does pretty good.  Probably about the same as WISK.
Actually with everything that was tried the spots are probably pretty
well set.  I also use the orange flavored hand cleaner, FAST ORANGE,
made by Permatex (L293-2 no pumice).  

> 
> Initially, it will spread the spot out, but as long as most of the gunk
> stays suspended in the cleaner, it should come out.  I picked up a wonderful
> grease streak on a good pair of jeans walking through a shop the other week
> (not my fault, grease jumps out at me when it see's me coming :-) and
> this worked pretty well.
> 
> The pumice in the handcleaner might be a bit rough on finer fabrics, though.
> 
> --
> Paul Amaranth  Manager User Services - office: (810) 370 4541 (also voicemail)
>                (e-mail)     [email-masked]
>                URL http://www.acs.oakland.edu/~amaranth

Paul in AJ AZ

---

From: Bryce Grevemeyer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:51:03 -0700

>I've tried the following to clean the spots:

I use the waterless hand cleaner that does not contain pumice.
There is one kind that comes in a red and white can, and another
brand that comes in a blue can.

The stuff is a combination of Lanolin, a water soluble oil,
and mineral spirits.  It works for most oil based stains, including
ball point pen.

Rub it in, let set a while and launder.  You may have to launder 
twice to get rid of the mineral spirit smell.

One end of the lanolin molecule grabs the oil based stain.  
Water can then grab the other end of the lanolin molecule and
float the whole mess away.

If it has resisted the list of stuff that you have used, it is
probably graphite based, and solvents will not remove it.

Sorry.
-- 
====================================================================
| Bryce Grevemeyer        | Phone:    (313) 845-5589               |
| Ford ETC C370           | FAX:      (313) 845 3799               |
| 17000 Rotunda Drive     | EMail:    [email-masked] |
| Dearborn, MI 48121-6010 | Internal Ford PROFS: IBMMAIL(I1483006) |
====================================================================

---

From: [email-masked] (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: 1 Jul 1996 17:52:32 GMT

I often have luck soaking in TriSodiumPhosphate solution - or throw some in
to the washer with the load.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 14:51:50

>Can these spots ever be cleaned?
----------------------------------00000---------------------------------
Buy a new shirt, identical to the one oil spotted.  Then wear this one
in the shop.  Everybody happy now?   :-)

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 1 Jul 1996 18:53:34 GMT

In <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (philip evans) writes:
>Probably difficult to get, but carbon tetrachloride might be worth trying;  
>failing that, I didn't see acetone (as such) on your list.

Look out!  If the shirt is synthetic at all, acetone will dissolve it.  *Don't*
ask how I know.  (That was a good tie, too.  I no longer wear good 
clothes to work.)

Buy a new shirt?  (just a thought...)

===========================================================

 1959 BMW R50                                           Jim Rozen              
 1969 BMW R60US                                (JRR0 @ watson.ibm.com)                 
 1975 BMW R75/6    (The "new" one)        

===========================================================

---

From: [email-masked] (Felice Luftschein)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:20:07 GMT

Just get used to looking like a filthy biker mechanic trashpicking
derelict, I have and my life is simplified, less showers and
laundry means more time to machine. My wife still won't let
me re-designate the living room as shop space though.

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Russ Kepler) 
writes:>From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
>Subject: Re: Help: Machinist needs laundry suggestion...
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:04:38 GMT

>In article <[email-masked]>,
>Chester A. Roberts, Jr. <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>

>I've done that too, usually thinking that it's just a quick turning,
>no time to get oil on myself and conveniently forgetting that I'd
>added oil to the 3 jaw after the previous use, and blow a $50 shirt
>in no time.  

>Last time this happened (a couple weeks ago) I simply hit the shirt
>with a couple of prewash cleaners: Shout and Chlorox Stain-Out. 
>After the first liberal application I left it soaking for 10-15
>minutes, then washed on a cold-cold setting.  That didn't get it all,
>so I used the Chlorox stuff and a regular wash setting, and now I
>can't identify the shirt in the closet, so it must've cleaned up OK.

>Now, if I could just keep from tracking in grease and swarf I would
>likely make my wife a very happy person.  She's given up on the
>itty-bitty rust marks from cast iron work.

---

From: [email-masked] (Edward Haas)
Date: 1 Jul 1996 13:55:57 -0700

--It's Tide or nothing. If it's Moly-Dee that splattered on the 
shirt, forget it: nothing will get *that* out...
	--Ialways thot it would be cool to have a shirt printed with a 
big vertical splatter that said "yes, I operate a lathe; how did you 
guess?" and another for a mill with a horiz. splatter.... 
-- 
	"Steamboat Ed" Haas	:	Words are nothing 	
	COMING SOON		:	Actions are everything...
	http://www.west.net/~steamer  	
		---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:04:38 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul Amaranth)
Date: 1 Jul 1996 15:48:53 GMT

>Can these spots ever be cleaned?

At this point, probably not.

One thing that works moderately well for me is to rub in some of the

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:36:18 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Paolo Zini <[email-masked]> wrote:
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Russ Kepler) says:
>Rust marks can be removed using a water solution of HF (fluoridric acid)
>10% or 20% is fine. Make a test on a small piece of the same fabric.
>It works fine also to remove rust marks from stones.

Uhh, in these parts HF is called hydrofluoric acid, and is used to
etch glass.  I imagine that it would remove rust, but the rust
particles I was referring to are from airborne dust settling on
dishes and into my coffee cup in the garage.  Those marks come out
with a little bleach.

>It really works.

Doesn't the surface pitting bother you even a *little* bit?  ;-)

---

From: [email-masked] (philip evans)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:42:25 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Paolo Zini)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 10:16:59 GMT

.............

Ciao

Paolo

                            _______
                            TTTTTTT  
                            | | | | 
                          ===========
Paolo Zini                TTTTTTTTT
CNUCE institute of CNR    | | | | |
Pisa ITALY               ===========
[email-masked]      TTTTTTTTT
                         | | | | |
                        ===========
                        TTTTTTTTT
                        | | | | |
                       ===========

---

From: [email-masked] (Ken McNair)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 17:24:24 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Paolo Zini) writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Russ Kepler) says:
|> .............
|> 
|> >Now, if I could just keep from tracking in grease and swarf I would
|> >likely make my wife a very happy person.  She's given up on the
|> >itty-bitty rust marks from cast iron work.
|> >
|> Rust marks can be removed using a water solution of HF (fluoridric acid)
|> 10% or 20% is fine. Make a test on a small piece of the same fabric.
|> It works fine also to remove rust marks from stones.
|> It really works.

Don't try this at home kids - hydrofluoric acid is 
scary stuff - I would only use it in a fume cupboard - 
one of the few acids that will attack glass !
Oxalic acid is usually recommended for rust stains, it's
quite poisonous but not corrosive.
Phosphoric acid (regular rust remover) can also be tried,
still nasty stuff, but safer than either of the above.

To keep from tracking in workshop crud you need to take
your boots and overalls/apron off before you enter the
"clean rooms".
 
Ken.

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Logan)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 11:37:14 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, From [email-masked] (Edward 
Haas), the following was written:
> -Ialways thot it would be cool to have a shirt printed with a 

If you get them made up, I'll take a set!

--
  ---------------------------------------------------
  From Scott Logan,
  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/LoganAct
  Reply to [email-masked]

---

From: PPIERCE <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 06:34:04 -0700

[email-masked] wrote:
> >>mistake of turning it on wearing one of my best shirts. .....

> .......I no longer wear good> clothes to work.)
> 

Good idea Jim...  But how about a used shirt?   I got some beauties at a yard
sale...  Fifty cents each (and no grease spot).  The fellow had outgrown 
them..  That happened to me also.  I am often one of the best dressed HSM
around, wearing a good Arrow size 16 shirt while working on my lathe.  
I need a 17 of I button it, but haven't worn a tie since retiring to AZ.

Paul in AJ AZ

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:28:41 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>me re-designate the living room as shop space though.

You can use the living room as shop space, it just takes time to work up
to it.

First, start by leaving metalworking magazines laying about for weeks
on end.  If she moves them, object loudly that you were reading that,
and put it back.  Build up a collection.

Next, move in parts and machine catalogs.  Browse these while
watching TV and looking at your magazines.  Plan future purchases
after winning the lottery.  Make extensive lists.

Next bring in plans and blueprints.  These will require both of the
other sources, catalogs and magazines as support aids.  Spread the
plans out over the coffee table, removing any other objects on the
table such as picture books of the Grand Canyon, candles, coasters,
etc.

If you make it this far take a breather, relax a bit.  You're halfway
there, but the next couple of bits will get dicey.

With the plans in place it's time to move in some castings.  Pick out
something brass or bronze, they look nicer than black cast iron, and
are thus less objectionable.  Move in small ones and lay them out on
the plans - if asked just say that you're looking to see how to
approach the machining.  Ask your spouse for advice, try to get a
buy-in.

Once accustomed to the castings try a bit of experimental assembly of
clean parts.  If this doesn't work, back off a bit and try again
later.  If it does work you now have at least a clean assembly area.

If there are no objections to assembly see if you can start taking
off casting flash and the like, maybe requiring some filing.  This is
the most dangerous part, you may need to start with filing over the
plans themselves and care should be taken to avoid tearing the plans
or getting them dirtier than necessary.

If you've gotten here then you've got a good shot at moving in power
tools, running in air lines, etc.  I'd suggest taking it easy,
though, as spouses seem to object to a 30K RPM die grinder in the
living room and the power in most living rooms isn't adequate for
large equipment.

---

From: [email-masked] (Alan Shinn)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:09:18 -0800

> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Russ
Kepler) says:

Be *very* carefull with hydrofluric acid! 1 drop on your skin will make a
huge deep burn despite immediate washing, it's not at all like the common
acids in that way. A few percent coverage of your skin surface can be
lethal.

Try Oxalic acid for rust stains.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Walley)
Date: 2 Jul 1996 16:18:53 GMT

Russ Kepler ([email-masked]) wrote:
: In article <[email-masked]>, Paolo Zini <[email-masked]> wrote:
: >In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Russ Kepler) says:
: >>Now, if I could just keep from tracking in grease and swarf I would
: >>likely make my wife a very happy person.  She's given up on the
: >>itty-bitty rust marks from cast iron work.
: >>
: >Rust marks can be removed using a water solution of HF (fluoridric acid)
: >10% or 20% is fine. Make a test on a small piece of the same fabric.
: >It works fine also to remove rust marks from stones.

: Uhh, in these parts HF is called hydrofluoric acid, and is used to
: etch glass.  I imagine that it would remove rust, but the rust
: particles I was referring to are from airborne dust settling on

Around here (an IC fab facility) HF is used and treated as a very hazardous
chemical.  I seem to remember that as acids go, HF is a rather weak acid
which if gotten on the skin, has the immediate effect of causing a red
irritated area.  The nasty stuff occurs MUCH later.  Flourine atoms are
rather mobile in tissue and cause displacement of calcium atoms in skin,
muscle, and bones (yes, it can migrate though enough flesh to reach the
bone.)  The long term effect effect of exposure (not even chronic
exposure) to HF is large increase in the risk of bone cancer.  Since I don't
work around the stuff, I don't know of other intermediate effects.
There is first aid kit available for HF exposure, which if used immediately,
binds the flourine atoms so that they can't migrate into the skin.
So, if you're going to work around HF, know about it's hazards and if
your're somewhat casual about safety, try to live near a hospital that 
has personel familiar with HF exposure and has the proper chemicals on hand
to treat you.

Tom Walley
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Bob Neidorff)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:02:15 GMT

: etch glass...

It also eats bone, from what I can recall.  Very dangerous
stuff.  This is definitely one of the more hazardous acids
to humans.  The effects are not noticable immediately, but
the long term effects are extreme.

How about a simpler acid, like vinegar (acetic acid)?
--
Bob Neidorff; Unitrode Corporation  |  Internet: [email-masked]
7 Continental Blvd.                 |  Voice   : (US) 603-429-8541
Merrimack, NH  03054-0399 USA       |  FAX     : (US) 603-429-8564

---

From: [email-masked] (Paolo Zini)
Date: 3 Jul 1996 09:53:04 GMT

>> : >It works fine also to remove rust marks from stones.
........
I mean hydrofluoric acid, sorry for the error. Yes is used to etch glass, 
yes it is dangerous. I have omitted the "standard" safety warning, sorry.
To reduce the size of my error, i was speaking of using few drops of a water 
solution of HF, if you wear rubber gloves and operate in open air you must be
able to avoid any problem.
Here in Italy the 10% HF water solution  is sold freely has rust remover in small
plastic bottles.
There is a great difference if I use two drops of HF once in my life, using
reasonable safety rules respect to the worker that uses concentrated HF for work 
8 hours a day 5 days in a week, 48 weeks in the year for 30 o 40 years.
In continous use conditions almost all chemicals and metals and almost everything 
is more or less dangerous. I use often the tin-lead alloy for electronics, lead
is really dangerous, how many people observes special safety rules using lead
for home works?
The danger, at least for what I know, is related to the exposition time to
the danger source.
I tink that over extimating the danger is a true problem, a kind of safety
terrorism is present in several newsgroups.
Any comments about this?
.............
>>  The nasty stuff occurs MUCH later.  Flourine atoms are
............

Sorry i am forced to cut because my news client refuse to mail a followup if the 
added text is less than included text. :-(

Ciao

Paolo

                            _______
                            TTTTTTT  
                            | | | | 
                          ===========
Paolo Zini                TTTTTTTTT

---

From: Clarence Noyer <[email-masked]>
Date: 3 Jul 1996 01:14:13 GMT

If you follow my examplee, you will build a shop, two stories, andlive 
upstairs while the house is being built.  Then--asthe tools are in place 
onthe floor level, justmove that living stuff into the house and you have 
lots of room to expand your enterprises.  Make the shop about 24X40 so 
you can be comfortable during transition.

Oh, yes, I still track in the fines but since I built on 2.5 acres wooded 
by D fir, hemlock, alder et al, you hardly see the shop produced stuff.

A friend who worked for a chemical supply outfit suggests that the 
hydroflouric acid be about 3%.  I think it reduces the iron so it doesn't 
stick to the fabric.

About the coffee cup, how can you tell how crudded up it is.

"CC"

---

From: [email-masked] (Alan Shinn)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 23:33:26 -0800

> has personel familiar with HF exposure and has the proper chemicals on hand

I once got a *teeny*, *tiney* droplet of hydrofluoric acid on my hand and
immediately washed it off with lots of water and baking soda. Still, a
burn the size of a quarter came. I got scared and took it to the ER where
the Doc treated it just like a hydrochloric acid burn --wrong-  ! So be
aware that most docs wouldn't have a clue about wat to do. I was lucy,- no
scar or anything.

---

From: [email-masked] (David William Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 17:43:57 GMT

>your boots and overalls/apron off before you enter the

...or, put a square of old carpet at the exit to your workshop.  

I have an "astroturf" doormat there, which gets the swarf off my
shoes. It falls down between the "grass" and so doesn't get picked
up by the next person to walk along.  When cleaning time comes I
just pick it up, invert over my bin and waggled around a bit. 
Most debris falls off.

Doesn't help with the grease, though, but a piece of carpet would. 

David Jenkins              -- aka --             Lathyrus Computers Ltd
***********************************************************************
* All incorrect spelling and grammar is intentional.  Corrections are *
* superfluous and will be ignored.  So there.                         *

---

From: [email-masked] (Jens)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 10:33:03 -0700

>terrorism is present in several newsgroups.

Although it is always good to err on the side of caution, I must agree
on your observation. The oxygen thread is a good example of 'safety
terrorism'.
Jens

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 22:49:03 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>you can be comfortable during transition.

A good suggestion, and you end up with a finished shop as a result.  I
sure could use heating and cooling in my shop - 110+ degF in the summer
daytime, 40 degF in the winter.

>hydroflouric acid be about 3%.  I think it reduces the iron so it doesn't 

Most common bleach will do the same job without the added HF risk.

>About the coffee cup, how can you tell how crudded up it is.

Well, when it's my office cup you can't (I developed the bad habit of 
never cleaning my coffee cup 'cause people would never steal a dirty
cup.  After a while they won't even touch it.).

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 22:51:21 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>Doesn't help with the grease, though, but a piece of carpet would. 

Carpet doesn't really help enough - I have to walk across 6-8 feet of
rugs in the garage to get into the house and even rubbing my shoes on
the carpet there are the spousal complaints.

---

From: Andrew Werby <[email-masked]>
Date: 4 Jul 1996 18:44:58 GMT

>on your observation. The oxygen thread is a good example of 'safety

[Hydroflouric acid is definitely not something to mess with unless you 
absolutely have to- for etching glass. The people that responded to 
Paolo's idiotic suggestion (that it be used to combat rust stains in 
clothing) with warnings were trying to save him (and those foolish 
enough to listen to him) from serious or fatal damage. While perhaps 
some safety concerns are overblown, this is not one of them.  My 
favorite toxicological manual, "Artist Beware" by Dr. Michael McCann 
(Watson-Guptil NY 1979) states that it is highly corrosive to the skin, 
eyes, and lungs, also causing severe tooth and bone damage. Effects
often don't manifest themselves until several hours after exposure, and 
may include death. As for "safety terrorism"-an oxymoron if I ever heard 
one-  promoting the use of an extremely hazardous chemical as the latest 
"washday miracle" is a lot more like real terrorism in its potential 
effect. 

Andrew Werby - United Artworks

http://users.lanminds.com/~drewid

---

From: [email-masked] (Joshua_Putnam)
Date: 5 Jul 1996 14:39:02 GMT

In <[email-masked]> Andrew Werby <[email-masked]> writes:

>Hydroflouric acid is definitely not something to mess with unless you 
>enough to listen to him) from serious or fatal damage. 

If the threat is really so serious, perhaps someone should ask
the CPSC why hydrofluoric acid has been freely sold as a laundry
and bathroom rust remover for decades, without any apparent need
for a recall.  I wonder if they even keep injury records by type
of cleaner?

Locally the most common brand of hydrofluoric acid rust remover
is "Whink," which is available in a squeeze bottle in most good
hardware stores and supermarkets.  I'm not sure what strength it
is, but it dissolves rust and hard water stains in toilet bowls
in less than a minute, and etches porcelain fairly quickly.

As for safety terrorism, I think the most unfortunate aspect of
the excessive warnings is that truly dangerous chemicals carry
no more warnings than only mildly dangerous ones.  I think my
last jug of muriatic acid had more warnings than a bottle of
Whink.

--

[email-masked]  is  Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
                       "My other bike is a car."

---

From: [email-masked] (Kelley Mascher)
Date: 5 Jul 1996 22:07:08 GMT

So, the little bottle of dilute Hydroflouric acid I bought at the grocery
store to clean the rust stains from my sink is going to kill me. Do you
really think that someone is going to go out, violating several state
and federal laws, and buy concentrated hydroflouric acid and try to
launder their shirt in it? Not likely.

Safety terrorism is probably too strong a term, safety hysteria is 
probably more accurate. I don't usually respond to these kinds of threads
but there is nothing idiotic about Paolo's suggestion. Insults will get
you nowhere.

Kelley

"Save me from the people who would save me from myself" Gang of Four

-- 
Kelley Mascher                                            (206) 528-2713
Children's Hospital & Med. Center               [email-masked]
Audiology Research

---

From: [email-masked] (David R Brooks)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 01:02:12 GMT

>for a recall.  I wonder if they even keep injury records by type

I would check if that "rust remover" really is HF?

A little while ago, here in Perth, we had a case of HF poisoning,
following an industrial accident. It's slow, and nasty :-(

--  Dave Brooks <http://www.iinet.net.au/~daveb>
PGP public key: finger  [email-masked]
                servers [email-masked]
    fingerprint 20 8F 95 22 96 D6 1C 0B  3D 4D C3 D4 50 A1 C4 34

---

From: [email-masked] (Blake Malkamaki)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 1996 00:04:13 -0400

Oxalic acid works great for removing rust and iron stains from clothing,
dishes, and sinks.  It is available at most pharmacies.
Blake Malkamaki, Little Mountain Ironworks, Concord, Ohio <[email-masked]>
>>Steam engines - Cletrac Crawler Tractors - Maple Syrup - Metal Signs<<
http://www.ncweb.com/users/blake