Subject: Obscene Retro-fit Prices

From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 23 Apr 1996 02:01:35 -0400

Just received more Sherline  retro-fit literature today. IMHO $5,000 for a
 CNC Sherline mill is nothing  short of  obscene! I can buy the standard
mill for  less than $500.  Can anyone tell me  why it must cost 900% more 
for the  retro-fit? With a profit margin like this I am in the wrong
business. Just venting <G>.

Bill Rittner

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From: [email-masked] ()
Date: 24 Apr 1996 10:42:34 GMT

WRitt ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Just received more Sherline  retro-fit literature today. IMHO $5,000 for a
:  CNC Sherline mill is nothing  short of  obscene! I can buy the standard
: mill for  less than $500.  Can anyone tell me  why it must cost 900% more 
: for the  retro-fit? With a profit margin like this I am in the wrong
: business. Just venting <G>.

: Bill Rittner

: I agree & 2nd this motion: retrofit prices are shamelessly obscene. 
: Little wonder manufacturing is going & has gone abroad. We can't afford 
: to upgrade our equipment.
: Ashoke Nijhowne.

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From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 24 Apr 1996 19:27:12 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] () writes:

>I agree & 2nd this motion: retrofit prices are shamelessly obscene. 

>: to upgrade our equipment.

This is why I'm building my own retro-fit for my Sherline. I will let all
know how it turns out when finished.

Bill Rittner

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From: [email-masked] (BILLG63475)
Date: 29 Apr 1996 11:22:48 -0400

>>>>Bill Rittner

So.... Just what are you getting for your $5000.00?? You should include a
little more information in your venting! I have a Converted Sherline that
I bought for something like $4700.00 and it has paid for itself several
times over! I guess it all depends on what your application is and how
much you like dealing with sub standard equipment! 

So what do you think is a reasonable price to pay for a fully converted 3
axis milling machine with Industry standard compatability? How many people
will you find to buy your machine?

Bill Griffin

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From: [email-masked] (BILLG63475)
Date: 30 Apr 1996 12:21:11 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (WRitt)
writes:

>There are very good retrofits for the Sherline on the market for  $1200
to
>$1500.There is no need to pay $5000 just to fill the pockets of a greedy
>business.
>
>Bill Rittner

Do you have any telephone numbers and or addresses for these vendors. I
would be interested in seeing what they are offering.

One of the things that I failed to point out in my earlier message was
that I have 2 of these $5,000.00 retrofit kits and both are using the AhHa
software (CNC Pro) one of the controllers is also from AhHa the other was
custom built and is used on an older Light Machine TMC-1000 with ball
screws. I use BobCAD CAM to create tool paths from drawings created mostly
in Cad Key and Pro E. I have also found BobCAD to be a capable basic
drawing program as well.

I have to agree that that average hobbiest probably cant justify this cost
for a hobby but I am not aware of any lower priced retrofits that are
complete and professional.

I know that you can buy a 3 axis driver board from Dan Mauch at
Camtronics, Either have him build it or build it yourself and find a
suitable power supply and a cabinet to house it in. Use the Dan CAD CAm
Software which is basically free ($10.00 to $15.00). Surplus or new motors
and suitable motor mouns are also needed. I feel that you could get a
system like this up and runing for probably less than the cost of the
Sherline Deluxe Mill. I found the Dan Cad Cam stuff to be cumbersome and
not very user friendly but functional which would probably be fine for the
hobbiest. I have found that 50 Oz In motors will work on all 3 axis, but a
120 oz in motor on Z would be more desirable.

Bill Griffin

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From: [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin)
Date: 29 Apr 1996 16:09:09 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
>will you find to buy your machine?

There is a guy in L.A. that advertises a new Mill-Drill CNC for $3850.  
It is a typical Mill-Drill, Enco, Jet, Rutland, whatever, that probably 
sells for around $1200, I'd say.  It is 3 axis and comes with software.  
I would say it does not have ball screws.

I don't know the bed size of a sherline, but the standard Mill-Drills 
are  about 8" x 28" table.

I would say 5000 for a retrofit is a lot for three stepper motors, a 
driver box, and some public software.  On the other hand, evidently 
Sherline can get the price and the retrofitters can get theirs from 
people who don't want to take the time to DIY.  After all, if you can 
write it off against taxes, who cares about the price?  If you are a home 
shop machinest/hobbiest, you do care.

JerryK

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From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 29 Apr 1996 21:22:06 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin)

>shop machinest/hobbiest, you do care.

$5000 is a  lot  for a retrofit, however, as Bill Griffin stated his has
paid for  itself  many times over. Therein lies the rub. The manufacturer
knows that the buyer  will make money with his product so  he can charge
much more for it. As you say a hobbiest cannot. The hobbiest,though, must
be aware that in order  to bring the price into his  range some
compromises must be made. This  does not mean,  as Bill G. put  it that
the machine is sub standard. It may  not  move at  150 in/min, but that is
not important  for a hobbiest, nor is it good  for a Sherline. 

As far as industry standard goes there really is  no such thing. There are
differences in the G and M codes from manufacturer to  manufacturer, and
as a machinist I  can tell you that they  are boring and tedious program
with. Conversational language is much faster and  simpler.

There are very good retrofits for the Sherline on the market for  $1200 to
$1500.There is no need to pay $5000 just to fill the pockets of a greedy
business.

Bill Rittner

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From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 1 May 1996 02:05:45 -0400

>would be interested in seeing what they are offering.
I some very vague literature from one company, however I don't have it at
this location. They use a software application that I have not heard of.
It is called MINC. Are you familiar  with it?

>in Cad Key and Pro E. I have also found BobCAD to be a capable basic

I'm  familiar with AhHa products. They  are excellent, but a bit overkill
for the Sherline. I have not used  BobCAD, but hear  very good things
about it. At $995 it is out of  the range of the average home shop
machinist. There  are many good  CAD pgms at much less. I just bought
AutoSketch for $99.
>complete and professional.
It  depends  on what you mean by professional.

>120 oz in motor on Z would be more desirable.

I've built Dan's R/L controller and have  the  board and  info for his
chopper drive.  your comments on DanCadCam are right on the money. The
advantage with this application for the hobbiest, besides  it's price, is
the ability to write part programs in ASCII on any word processor. I  have
found that most hobbiests just don't  want to deal with G-code
programming, I'm really sick of it myself. That is  why I'm looking  for a
conversational language software package. I used  to  run a Hurco milling
machine department and fell in  love  with that type of programming. It 
is much easier and faster. Do you know of  any frontend packages like
this?

Bill Rittner

P.S. I have  the  Light Machines catalog and  video.  Very impressive, but
again, the price is in  the range of some very good used CNC machines that
will do much more.

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From: [email-masked] (BILLG63475)
Date: 1 May 1996 12:38:16 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (WRitt)
writes:

>At $995 it is out of  the range of the average home shop
>machinist.

Just for your information, they have just released a windows version that
looks quite a bit nicer than the dos ver 14 that I am using and the cost
is just $495.00 I believe that you can still but the dos version as the
windows version does not yet support lathe programming.

> There  are many good  CAD pgms at much less. I just bought
>AutoSketch for $99.

Those are just cad programs, and yes they are a dime a dozen! Bobcad CAM
is not only a drawing program but it will also create G-Code files
automatically.

>It is called MINC. Are you familiar  with it?

I have heard of it mentioned in this forum before, possibly by you, but I
do not know where you can find it!

I have to admit that there was a time when I thought I could put together
a Sherline machine and sell it for much less! I believe this to be true
only in the sense that I do not have a on going business venture where I
have much overhead and as such I can not  provide the level of service
that say AhHa can and does provide. If there were hundreds of customers
out there who wanted to but a CNC Sherline and they were all experienced
Machinists like yourself and needed very little support, a company might
be able to sell these machines much cheaper. 

Bill

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From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 1 May 1996 19:03:45 -0400

>be able to sell these machines much cheaper. 

I'm not sure this can be done on a commercial basis, especially
considering the after sale support that  would be  required for
inexperienced hobbiests. The conclusions I have drawn are: (1) If  you
want a very reasonably priced Sherline retrofit you will have  to build it
yourself. I believe this is in part what Dan Mauch is trying to tell
people. (2) If you are going to spend $5000 for a CNC then go for a
retrofit on a mill/drill, or something larger than the  Sherline. As the
gentleman from AhHa stated in his post their retrofit package is overkill 
for  a Sherline. Even so it is a high quality package at substantially
less than $5k, and I  think it would be considered professional by
anyone's standards.

Even at $495 I think BobCAD is a bit out  of reach for the average
hobbiest. DanCad's ability to  read  ASCII files makes it more attractive
to them as they can use just about any  CAD program. The major drawback 
is the lack of cutter comp. I believe a large portion of  we are paying 
for in a CAD/CAM application is after sale support.  This support is very
expensive. The problem with this is that people who buy these packages
that are experienced enough not  to need all this  support are still
paying for it. I would  like to see  a  higher price offered including
support, and a  lower price requiring the  buyer to pay for any support.
This way the  buyer pays only for what he/she actually needs. Any comments
on this thought?

Bill

PS This thread is proving to  be far more enlightening than I  ever
imagined.

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From: "S. Russell Sutton" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 17:57:41 GMT

I have a Browne and Sharpe #2 surface grinder which is driven by a 1 1/4" 
leather drive belt.  It is old and beginning to break more frequently.  
Soon I will not be able to piece it together.  Does any know of a 
replacement source and is a more permanent material available other than 
leather?

Thanks 

Russ Sutton
Custom Knifemaker (among other things)

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From: 73744,2077/GO:[email-masked]
Date: 3 May 1996 21:18:58 GMT

>>120 oz in motor on Z would be more desirable.

Does anyone has information on Camtronics' whereabouts or phone number?

I would like to get information on low cost CNC controllers (or kits)
that either use G-code
or some type of translation software.

Stepper control is fine.

I already have info from Ah-ha!  And have found their prices too high for what I want to do,
which is to make a cnc controlled oxy-fuel cutting table.

Thanks,

Dave

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From: [email-masked] (WRitt)
Date: 3 May 1996 22:00:40 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,
73744,2077/GO:[email-masked] writes:

>oes anyone has information on Camtronics' whereabouts or phone number?
>

You  can  E-mail Dan Mauch at [email-masked]. They also  have a
web page, but I  don't have  that info.

Bill Rittner

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From: [email-masked] (Jim Shockey)
Date: 4 May 1996 07:51:17 -0700

>replacement source and is a more permanent material available other than 

Look in the Yellow Pages under Power Transmission or 
Bearings. These "Bearing Houses" can usually fill this need 
for you. I have a number of flat belt drives, from 1 1/2" to 4". 
I use a belt (the name of which I naturally can't remember) 
which is a woven product, bonded with some type of synthetic 
material. It has virtually the same slippage characteristics as 
leather, is long lasting, and should be readily available to you.  
It's quite similar (and may be identical) to certain types of 
conveyor belting.

If you have any trouble finding it, let me know and I'll have 
my local supplier get in touch with you.

Good luck,

--jim			<[email-masked]>

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 4 May 1996 16:04:37 GMT

>Custom Knifemaker (among other things)

I have replaced many leather belts on machines, and have been satisfied
with the results of the repairs.  As long as the leather is kept clean
and oil-free, it performs well for a non-industrial application.

McMaster-Carr [(908) 329-3200] mail-orders many types of flat
leather belting, and also belt cement.  I have used them as a source
for quite a while.  

You can find sombody to put clips on the belting, or buy a clip tool
but then you have to listen to the click-clack every time the clip
goes around the pulley.

I skive the ends of the belt by C-clamping it to a piece of aluminum
angle stock, and then mounting the aluminum in my milling machine
vise at the angle I wish to skive the belt at.  As long as the milling cutter
is pushing down on the belt, and is also putting it in tension, it cuts
well.

Then clamp the belt into place in your machine as a trial before 
applying cement and gluing it up.  Allow to sit overnight before 
using.

Hope this helps!

===========================================================

 1959 BMW R50                                           Jim Rozen              
 1969 BMW R60US                                (JRR0 @ watson.ibm.com)                 
 1975 BMW R75/6    (The "new" one)        

===========================================================

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From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 4 May 1996 16:25:03 GMT

Scott Logan was given a piece of flat plastic belting
to try when he was at NAMES.  It is the type that you
use a hot knife to form the joint.  Looked pretty good
and since it develops more friction than leather, it
might not have to be as wide (as the sample I saw was
about 1" wide).

Try your local bearing & belt supplier.

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

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From: [email-masked](Arthur A. Van Hecke)
Date: 12 May 1996 05:12:42 GMT

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Russ
Kepler) writes: 
>>I got some leather from the "Tandy Leather Company" along with some
>>synthetic lacing cord (verrrrry strong) and followed the instructions
>>in "How to Ruin a Lathe" by South Bend. 
>            ^^^^
>After a year in High School Meatl Shop I thought that the talent was
>native, not taught.

Unfortunately, the student lacks the experience to see or hear when
something is going wrong, you have to foul-up to see and hear the
disaster.  Be that as it may, I have seen the South Bends take abuse no
one would ever give knowingly.  I bought 60 of them one time (when they
closed a couple of schools) and the most trouble I had with them was
moving them physically.  Suprisingly they had very little wear and no
real damage, It took me 3 weeks to find homes for them at a very nice
profit.

--Art