Subject: Re: WTD: low power, diesel generator

From: Jim & Tina Carmichael <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:45:34 -0700

david allen wrote:
> 
> does anyone know of a source for a small diesel engine (1 to 3 hp)?  I want to
> put it on a small generator to provide a continuous, constant power source
> (1000 watts max).
> 
> thanks
> 
> da

China Diesel Imports (CDI) of Jamul, CA (near San Diego).  They 
advertise in Mother Earth News, and sell small diesel motor and 
generator combinations.

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From: [email-masked] (david allen)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 15:22:48 GMT

thanks

da

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From: [email-masked] (Donald Kulha)
Date: 16 Jun 1996 17:35:00 GMT

david allen ([email-masked]) wrote:
: does anyone know of a source for a small diesel engine (1 to 3 hp)?  I want to 
: put it on a small generator to provide a continuous, constant power source 
: (1000 watts max).  

     A small, smelly, noisy, expensive and obnoxious generator you're
likely to discover friend. You would likely tire of it before long. Better
to run a larger one less time to charge a battery, then use an inverter
(turns low voltage DC power to 117 VAC) to turn it into the flavor of
power you want. I use solar panels to do this and bypass having to live
with the generator (except for rare occasions when a generator is needed
due to lack of sunlight).
     I believe you can find small 5hp diesels for marine power generation
but I'm not sure where (check in rec.boats). Volvo-Penta makes some small
diesel powered generators but they're pretty pricey.

DCK

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From: [email-masked] (Jim Naylor)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:22:27 -0600

> advertise in Mother Earth News, and sell small diesel motor and 

Has anyone used these? One of my pipe dreams is to build a residential
co-generation system (5-8kw) and wonder if one of these might be a
candidate.

-- 
Jim Naylor                             [email-masked]
Wichita KS

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From: phil@ (Phil Roban)
Date: 18 Jun 1996 00:13:58 GMT

For that matter, what sort of generator would
one want to use here? 
The idea of energy-sucking field coils annoys me--does
anyone know how large an alternator/generator can be had
with permanent magnets?

Phil Roban
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Donald Kulha)
Date: 25 Jun 1996 07:48:58 GMT

Jim Naylor ([email-masked]) wrote:
: 
: Let me repeat the question: has anyone used or known anyone who has used
: the China Diesel engines? Are they durable, quiet, cheap to operate, run
: on anything from JP4 to left over pepperoni pizza? Or not?
: 
Hi Jim, Think we've chatted before....

I've heard from several folks (some of which owned one of these) that they
are very poorly made and ultimatly unreliable. They come with a spare
parts kit for a reason...they always need it. A fellow who wrote some
articles for Backwoods Home mag really likes his and the mag also offers
his book about them. He claims it's reliable. My friends, including
Richard at Home Power mag pan them pretty bad. Wouldn't touch one myself.
Richard has a 6.5kw Honda. I understand the biggest problem with the China
diesels are poor metalurgy and very poor machine work/tolerances.

DCK

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From: [email-masked] (Jim Naylor)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:53:12 -0600

[snip]
> I understand the biggest problem with the China
Thanks for the good response Donald. It's just what I was looking for.
Methinks I'll shift my attention to the Intelligen system that Steve
Wellcome recommended.

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From: PPIERCE <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:09:10 -0700

Jim Naylor wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> > I understand the biggest problem with
>
> system that Steve Wellcome recommended.
> 

You probably won't go far wrong listening to him..

Paul in AJ AZ

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From: PPIERCE <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:11:21 -0700

> Methinks I'll shift my attention to the Intelligen system that Steve

You probably won't go wrong listening to him..

Paul in AJ AZ

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From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Jun 1996 12:20:01 GMT

Good grief.  You really know how to lead people down the garden
path, don't you, Paul?

There's a bit of information about Intelligen Energy Systems available
on the web.  I just did an AltaVista search ( http://altavista.digital.com/ )
on "Intelligen Energy" and got a few matches.  One of the most promising
was http://www.nahb.com/research/homebase/newslttr/OILFILED.html

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From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 27 Jun 1996 13:02:34 GMT

Opps...that should be http://www.nahb.com/research/homebase/newslttr/OILFIRED.html

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From: [email-masked] (Sam Gaylord)
Date: 22 Jun 1996 16:12:23 GMT

Richard K. Downer ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Robert Galloway wrote:
: > 
: > >Has anyone used these? One of my pipe dreams is to build a residential
: > >co-generation system (5-8kw) and wonder if one of these might be a
: > >candidate.
: > >
: > >--
: > >Jim Naylor                             [email-masked]
: > >Wichita KS
: > 
: > If you have residential natural gas you might want to think in terms of a
: > gas engine rather than a diesel
: > 
: > rhg

: Good idea! I live where we lose power maybe once every other year, but when we
: do it's for three or four days. We have a generator, but we have to stop it to
: re-fill the gasoline tank. We also have propane. How difficult would it be to
: convert a small gasoline engine to propane? Who would I contact about that? The
: generator people or the propane company?
: -- 
: Rick Downer
: [email-masked]
: 6-6D91       965-1947

: These opinions are not mine, they're Boeing's. Boeing paid me while I 
: opined them, so Boeing owns them. But Boeing might not agree with them.

I'd start with your local propane distributor.  They probably won't be able
to do it, but might be able to recomment someone, or where to look.

samg

a.k.a Sam Gaylord ([email-masked])
Hewlett Packard/Colorado Springs

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From: "Duane C. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:39:39 -0700

> Hewlett Packard/Colorado Springs

This is just an overview on how it is done. I did it once to a VW engine.
 
Note I will refere to a gas as gas and gasoline as gasoline.

All carburators have venturies. This is a narrow portion in the flow of air as it passes 
through a pipe. When flowing through the venturie the pressure goes down. If constructed 
correctly this pressure will be less than the pressure around the carburator. In the 
case of the gasoline carburator this lowered pressure will suck fuel into the air 
stream. 

How can we do this with propane or natural gas?

The principal is the same. Use a gas pressure regulator set to a pressure below 
atmospheric pressure. When the engine is not running there will be no gas flowing as the 
pressure is not low enough. Start the engine and the pressure will be lowered and suck 
gas from the regulator. 

As with gasoline there needs to be the correct mixture of fuel to air. In the gas 
carburator make this adjustment by changing the regulator pressure and sive of the 
oriface in the venturie.

Gernerally the pressure regulators used in appliances are set to a positive pressure to 
allow gas to flow when the electric solonoid is activated. These regulators generally 
are easily adjusted to a lower negative pressure.

The carburature I made was constructed from copper water tubing components that were 
soldered togather. I used reducers to make the venturie. A hole was drilled in the side 
of the venturie to admit a smaller tube for the introduction of the gas. The end of this 
tube was cut at an angle. This angle is another way of adjusting the flow.

You need to size the components for your particular application and power requirements. 
Make the size of the tubing components you use similar to that of the gasoline versions. 
The gas tube, as a guess on my part, should be about 1/4 the diameter of the venturie.

This carburatur is so cheap to build that if any parts need to be changed one can start 
over with a new one. Nearly everything can be obtained at a well equiped hardware or 
plumbing store.

                                         | Air in from   |
                                         |  air cleaner  |
                                         |               |
            ||                            \             /
           /  \                            \           /
          /    \  Gas regulator             |         |
         |      |                           |         |
         |      |              ___          |         |
         |      |_______________|___________|_____    |
         |      |_______________X________________/    |
         |      |             Valve         |         |
         |      |                           |         |
         |      |                          /           \
          \    /                          /             \
           \  /                          | Fuel/Air to   |
            ||                           |  Engine       |
                                         |               |

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Galloway)
Date: 28 Jun 1996 09:10:53 -0600

Beautiful.  Thanks very much for sharing this info.  

rhg

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From: [email-masked] (Philippe Habib)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 16:18:31 GMT

>: convert a small gasoline engine to propane? Who would I contact about that? The

Call Garretson (817)924-1698.  They make kits to convert engines from
gasoline to either propane or natural gas.  They also make a version that
still lets you run from gasoline if you want.  Cost is about $200.

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From: "Duane C. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:45:39 -0700

Steve Wellcome wrote:
> 
> If you're looking for a residential diesel cogeneration system...it's
> already been done.  Drop a line to:
> 
>    Intelligen Energy Systems, Inc.
>    99 South St.
>    Hopkinton, Mass.
> 
> They manufacture a 5KW residential cogeneration heating system that
> uses a 11hp diesel engine.  It's a *nice* package.  Quality is extremely
> good.  Efficiency approaches 93%.  I went to an open  house there last
> fall.  Initial cost is high (around $8,000) but in  a "typical" house,
> at least in this part of the  country (Massachusetts) you end up getting
> your electricity basically for free and the payback  period is fairly
> reasonable, especially if you need a new heating system anyway.
> 
> (Usual disclaimers, no connection, etc.)

Can this cogeneration system run on natural gas?

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/
(612)426-4766 h  635-5065 d

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From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 4 Jul 1996 14:04:56 -0400

>> (Usual disclaimers, no connection, etc.)

I have a small business interest in Intelligen... Nick

>Can this cogeneration system run on natural gas?

They are working on that. Perhaps in a year or two...

Intelligen Energy Systems       Tom Sciacca, President
58 South Street                 Neil Slavin, Exec. VP
Hopkinton, MA 01748             (508) 435-9007

This is a clever "oil burner," that costs about $10K, but it can pay for itself
in 3-5 years, vs. the infinite payback period for an ordinary oil burner, by
making 5 kW of electricity while it is heating a house. The interface is an
ordinary circuit breaker in the service panel, the kind you would use for an
electric range.

It burns home heating oil at 93% efficiency, with a 1 1/2" PVC fluepipe and
a 150F exhaust gas temperature. Inside the 800 lb box is an 11 HP diesel made
by Lister-Petter, and an induction generator. When the house thermostat calls
for heat, the induction generator acts as a motor to start the diesel from
the 220 volt line. Then it becomes a generator, making the meter run backwards,
if legally permitted. (In some states, you need two meters.) When the house is
warm enough, the diesel engine stops running.

Of course you have to put sandbags all over the kitchen floor, to keep the
dishes from rattling off the shelves... :-) No, it's actually fairly quiet,
60 dBA 2 meters away, with good shock mounts as well as acoustic skins.

The unit has a built-in circulator pump, which runs the engine block cooling
water thru baseboard radiators, a duct heat exchanger, a fan coil unit, an
indirect-fired water heater, a hot tub or swimming pool heat exchanger, etc.
55,000 Btu/hr. 85,000, max, in "turbo-mode" :-) if the microprocessor senses
more heat is needed and diverts the electrical output to turn on some heaters
in the water stream, instead of feeding it back to the electric company.

The company has about 60 systems installed in New England now, interfaced
with a dozen utilities. They are looking to expand their territory. I helped
them get the first one installed in (Doylestown) Pennsylvania.

The unit won't work in a stand-alone power mode. It won't start without grid
power, and it won't stay running on a dead line. This is a "safety feature."

Most cogen systems are at least a thousand times bigger, 5 megawatts and up.
One of the problems with these small systems is lifetime. Some standby power
systems spec oil changing every 25 hours. Others wear out in 2000 hours.
Intelligen's diesel engine is very reliable. It's also used in the M1 tank
(for auxiliary power), the DEW line, military jet engine starting systems,
commercial fishing fleets, and offshore Coast Guard installations that only
get visited once a year or so. Intelligen has a 10 year guarantee. Maintenance
consists of changing the oil once a year. And perhaps gently enquiring how
the unit has been doing over the last year, via its RS-232 interface :-)

Nick

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From: Don Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 10:48:22 -0700

> still lets you run from gasoline if you want.  Cost is about $200.

There's alot of companies that manufacture kits to convert gas engines to propane.  Most of them 
involve attaching a vapor carburator on top of the gasoline one. If you contact some of your local 
bulk propane dealers they will be able to get you the costs.  
These kits most often provide for 'dual fuel' operation.  I had a Camaro several years ago that ran 
on either propane or gas at the flick of a switch.  One thing you have to remember is that propane 
has a lower BTU content than gas, i.e. 1 gal of propane < 1 gal of gas. However, propane powered 
engines have several advantages, smooth accelleration/decelleration (maybe not an issue in your 
application), and extended engine life (propane enters the cylinder as a vapor and thus doesn't 
'wash' oil off the cylinder walls the way gas does, or so I've been told).  I do know that gas 
engines, for whatever reason, go alot longer between major repairs when they're running propane. 

Don Smith  [email-masked]