Subject: Master Precision Level

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 6 Dec 1996 07:40:02 GMT

There were some people looking for the $49 Master Precision Level
>from  MSC.  I am told that they are all gone.  But, J & L Industrial
Supply has a December sale going with several nice items.
They have a Chinese 8" Master Precision Level, One division =
.0005" / 10", which is more sensitive than the Soviet one I've got.
Has a hand scraped base, with vee for placing on round surfaces,
cross vial, wooden case, $79.95, order # IPL-22008H.  I saw this
at the local store.  I might still like mine better, but it looked like
a quality piece.

They also have a 5C spin-index fixture for $49.00, with 2 1/16" axial
travel for flute grinding.

They have a 7 7/8"dividing head, with tailstock, 3 dividing plates,
center and drive dog, threaded back plate.  $225.00, YON-70100B

Also some other nice stuff.

They can be reached at 800-521-9520

					Jon

---

From: [email-masked] (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: 11 Dec 1996 00:18:59 GMT

But, J & L Industrial
	cross vial, wooden case, $79.95, order # IPL-22008H. 
	
Mine arrived yesterday. It's not Chinese, but Polish. It's lovely. The
wooden case could fit more tightly, but other than that I have nothing
to complain about - especially at this price! I'd rate it 95% as nice as
the Starret...

Scanning through J&L's catalog, I see that they beat McMaster-Carr on a
number of things that I've ordered recently. Their product range is not as
great, but their San Jose store is within driving distance...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 13 Dec 1996 14:51:06 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R.

>>	cross vial, wooden case, $79.95, order # IPL-22008H. 

Hmmm... Sounds like a great Christmas gift for the wife... Boy will she be
surprised!  

(I missed the original post) -- The only problem is I can't find a listing
for J & L Industrial in either the FAQ or Thomas Register -- anybody have
an order phone number for those folks?

-- Garry

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 05:55:34 GMT

>to complain about - especially at this price! I'd rate it 95% as nice as

You are going to have some fun with that level.  I've spent
several hours moving things on my machines to see what
happens.  You will see it move, maybe even off scale when
you lean your body weight on the corner of a wooden bench.

After you set them on something, they take a while to settle
out - I usually make myself wait a minute before taking a
"reading" to be sure it is done settling.  The bubble moves
rather slowely the last little bit..

You might consider using a less sensitive level to get the
Master level in range.  Things have to be quite close or the
bubble will be hard against one end of the vile or another.

It was an excellent lesson in what is "rigid", and what
isn't.

Enjoy
Fitch

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 12:25:59 GMT

Our problems with leveling have been that the concrete in the shop floor is too 
thin...  when the planer table movess, the concrete moves!

Regards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 17:11:54 GMT

In <[email-masked]>, Terry Nelson <[email-masked]> writes:
..
>Mine was off about 1.5 marks from being level. Of course this is ajustable once
>you get past the red goo locking the adjustment screw. (Acetone worked for me).
>
>The leveling mechanism for these is really cute. I'll try to explain it. The 
>adjusting screw has two threaded sections. The top section is larger than the
>bottom section, and threads into the holder for the  sightglass. The lower smaller
>diameter portion threads into the base of the level. The sightglass is mounted 
>on a pivot on the other end.  The two threaded sections have different pitches
>so that a full turn of the screw changes the height on the adjusting end of the
>sightglass the DIFFERENCE of the screw pitches. There is also a spring pushing
>upward on the adjusting end to remove the clearance for the threads.
>

This was a wonderful post from Terry.  I bought the J & L 8", and the physical condition        
matches his 10" description. If you run your finger over the hand scraped pattern,
the texture is deep enough to be noticeable.  I would guess 4-16 bearing points / square inch.
But wear is not a consideration.  It sits nice and flat on a surface plate.
Turning the level end-for-end, I had one division off on the readout, and was wondering
how to zero it.  It has the same two red-locked screws, and it sounds like the adjustment
is the same. I was very reluctant to take apart this new level to see how it worked,
so Terry's post really helped.  I will find the Acetone when I get home.

All in all, well worth what I paid.  Not as nice as a Starrett, but I could not
afford the price on even a used Starrett which was four times as much.

 - Robert Mitchell - [email-masked]
                     [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 06:13:31 GMT

[email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson) wrote:

>Fitch R. Williams ([email-masked]) wrote:
>: After you set them on something, they take a while to settle
>: out - I usually make myself wait a minute before taking a
>: "reading" to be sure it is done settling.  The bubble moves
>: rather slowely the last little bit..

>: You might consider using a less sensitive level to get the
>: Master level in range.  Things have to be quite close or the
>: bubble will be hard against one end of the vile or another.

>: It was an excellent lesson in what is "rigid", and what
>: isn't.

>Yes, I really was amazed to find out that what I thought I'd gotten
>VERY level with a "machinist's level" was still WAY off.  I leveled
>my lathe well for the first time, and it got down to turning the foot
>pads 1/64th of a turn.  The level could have let me level it even better,
>but I couldn't cope with turning those feet finer than a 64th of a turn!
>I could plainly see warpage on the top of my mill's table, and concave
>wear on the bottom (as I moved the table). The sensitivity of these things
>is amazing!  I'm still finding new uses for it.

>					Jon

Jon,

I am still amazed too.  Dad bought one of the levels
Grizzley sells.  When that is dead center as near as I can
see, the Master Level is almost off scale in one direction
or the other, but close enough to start.  After doing the
leveling, the Grizzley looks about the same as it did.

I have 7/16 NF thread on my leveling screws.  I too run out
of skill at about 1/64 of a turn.  But you can see that
much, no problem.  These things would be the ultimate
marketing tool for a firm trying to sell all metal stands to
replace wooden lathe benches.  Trust me on this those of you
who have never used one.  They "go off scale" when you lean
your body weight on the typical wooden lathe bench.

Yes to measuring on the mill also.  I can see the difference
as I move the table and the weight of the vise goes over
center as it travels from side to side.  It moves the
equivelent of .0015" in 10 inches when it does that.  It
takes patience to observe it though.  I move the table a
bit, and then weight quite a while for the bubble to settle
back from the end it ran off to when I turn the crank, even
slowely.  

As an aside, where ever you are, it seems to take almost
exactly 23 hours for your posts to arrive on my ISPs server
in Lancaster CA.  About 8 hours longer than for Alberto's to
get here form London (which take about as long as the ones
>from  South America)..

Fitch

---

From: Terry Nelson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:03:18 -0700

> so Terry's post really helped.  I will find the Acetone when I get home.

The two red locked screws visible from the outside are to center the sightglass holder.
I doubt you want to mess with them.  The adjusting screw is on the inside under the top 
cover.  I'll warn you, if you take the adjusting screw clear out, its a pain to get back
in right.  You must put it in the sightglass mount the CORRECT number of turns, then 
push down on the holder and continue screwing it into the base.  You WILL need a level
surface to know you are set up in the correct position. It took me several tries.

Terry

---

From: Terry Nelson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:28:54 -0700

> you lean your body weight on the corner of a wooden bench.

I have the 12 inch Polish Level. Here's a quick product review for anyone
interested.  Costs about $110 from Travers.  Solid cast frame, ground 
bottom with vee.  The bottom of the 12 incher has a raised portion in the
middle about 4 inches long.  It you need to level across a small area you
have to lay something flat across it to set the level on. See picture.

     *****************************
    *                             *
   *           **********          *
  ************           ************

The bottom surface has a flaked finish in the vee and on the bottom two edges.
The flaking pattern repeats at roughly .1 to .15 inches.  It's slightly deeper
than it needs to be. If you lay it across lathe vee ways with a .1 inch flat on 
top you can get slight shifts due to the flaking.  A straight ground surface 
would probably be better, but of course it doesn't look as cute.

There is enough metal on this I haven't been able to notice any changes due to
localized heating. It has a plastic handle area for those concerned about heat 
>from  handling.

Mine is stamped with 0.0005 inches/ten inches for the graduation. I think it's a
tad bit more sensitive, around 0.000333,  This is based on some feeler gauge height
shifts.  The measurements were done on my lathe bed which is a little awkward to 
measure this kind of stuff on.  Some day I'll try it on a level surface plate.

All in all I'm quite pleased with this level.  It's really and education to level
up a machine.  These large seemingly hard chunks of iron flex all over the place.
it's really quite amazing. After having a level I cringe at all the method people 
use to try and level things up without one.  Rest assured, if you have a lathe,
and haven't used a precision level to set it up, you ways ARE twisted.  At least
in my heavily biased opinion. :):):)

Hope this helps anyone thinking about one.

Terry

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 12 Dec 1996 06:07:42 GMT

Jon

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:09:10 GMT

>Regards, Mark

I can believe that.  At work when they put in the big
machines, they dig a big hole and pour a lot of concrete
into it.  

Here in my garage, when it rains the whole floor shifts
slightly, probably due to the extremely expansive soil we
have.  I couldn't detect it before.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 17:35:12 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R.

>have.  I couldn't detect it before.

Get rid of that stupid level and the floor will stop moving again.

Peter ;)>

---

From: [email-masked] (Randolph Lee)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 14:18:16 -0400

>machines, they dig a big hole and pour a lot of concrete

When I visited the iron blomery at Iron Bridge Gorge last Oct. they showed
how the anvil of the big steam hammer was supported... a huge solid casting
the size of a VW bug was dug down in the dirt under the hammer... and about
6 or 8 long (20+feet) heavy cast iron 'spider legs' were dovetailed in to
the huge casting and spread the load of the whole floor of that end of the
works... talk about massive footings... if you go on fri or sat in the
summer months you can see them making the bloomery iron... last place on
earth  that does...

Randolph Lee
Windshadow Engineering