Subject: Re: gun barrel drilling?

From: Vince Kub <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:51:37 -0500

On 3 Jun 1996, Bruce Conner wrote:

> 
> > 
> > (And on barrel drilling for blackpowder -- I'm with a previous poster. Go
> > to Dixie Gunworks and buy a barrel. Either that or start small and work up,
> > learning as you go.
> > 
> > Historically I don't think black powder rifle barrels were ever bored out
> > of solid stock.)
> 
> 
> Starting small is always good! :')  
> 
> My info about barrels drilled from solid stock comes from a book by Ned
> Roberts, "The Muzzle-loading Cap Lock Rifle" 3rd edition 1952.  He tells
> about barrel blanks made with a hole in them (from a short thick blank
> with a hole punched in it, then forged to a long barrel with a small hole
> in it.)  He then goes on to state that the makers of the most accurate
> guns didn't like these and used solid stock, drilled out, instead.
> 
> Just wanted you to know I wasn't talking through my hat! :')
> 
> 
> Bruce Conner
> [email-masked]
> 
> 

Bruce, 

   As I recall, one of the Foxfire books (#4 or #6, I think) deals with
metalworking and gunsmithing. It makes for interesting reading and it
turns out that even in the 18th century most rifle barrels were imported
>from  Britian (the major industrialized nation of the time), although not
neccessarily as anything more than blanks the 'smith had to rifle himself.
I believe there is one gentleman in Colonial Williamsburg that has the
skill to forge a barrel from pig iron, but he had to work out the process
>from  historical research as there was no-one alive at the time to show the
way. It's apparently a tremendous undertaking, although like most things
it can be done with the investment of sufficient sweat equity.  

		- Vince

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From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:24:49 -0500

On 3 Jun 1996, Paolo Zini wrote:
<massive snip of all kinds of junk >

> I am absolutely not interested in rifles, but barrel drilling is one
> interesting machining problem.
> One example: I was tinking to make a modification to my lathe and to do
> this, a new, different spindle is required.
> The spindle is simple, no great problem to make one, but the hole?
> how to machine one LONG ROUND and CENTERED hole in a round stock?
> Believe me: I am not interested in rifles and similar, but i have
> abandoned the project because of the hole....
> 
Paolo,
Make the spindle.  Install it in the lathe!  Then put a drill, a "gun"
drill preferably into the tailstock.  Set it up close to the spindle.
Start the lathe and advance the drill into the spindle with the tailstock
This is the basic method.  Rotate the stock while drilling the hole with
a stationary drill and the forces involved will center the hole and keep
it there.  
After you get it drilled, then get a taper reamer and ream it to the
desired spindle taper.  
John

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 14:57:03

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Bruce Conner) writes:
<snip>
>Reaming it with a square reamer and doing the rifling the old fashioned
>way should be amusing.  Plenty of tinkering to take my mind off things. 
>The references I have found so far make it clear that this can be done
>with "primative" tools.  Fun Fun Fun!

--------------------------------------------------------
In recent issues, Model Engineer magazine has had articles on early (1850's)
machines for gunstock manufacturing.  These are wood framed, bolted together.
Cutters are small, forged, case hardened.  You could make one of these with
blacksmith equipment and lumber and patience.  ME also had articles on the 
early mass production of blocks (for block and tackle). There was a great
deal accomplished in the last century with the tools that we today would 
have in our DIY or "basic around the house repair kits".  
Good reading to inspire you.   
Build your own wooden ship navy and amaze the neighbours!  :-)
Cheers
Jay

---

From: [email-masked] (Robert Galloway)
Date: 6 Jun 1996 11:47:56 -0600

>
>I want to make coach bolts (for gates rather than coaches, but never
>mind) out of ten millimeter round stock.  I have 10mm taps & dies, but
>I have never used either a tap or a die.  I'd rather not bugger up a
>tool by doing something stupid with it: are there tricks to using
>these things beyond "Go slow, lubricate, and clear them often"?  And
>what does one lubricate them with anyway??  I assume that sump oil is
>not the stuff.
>
>Cheers,
>	Randall.

Randall,
     Most hardware or plumbing supply shops will have cutting oil.  I've 
heard it described as "lard oil".  The older version is also described as 
"sulfur based".  Newer products such as that sold under the Tap-Matic 
brand name are probably better in a production setting but on mild steel 
with small numbers of parts, the old stuff is probably as good as any.  I 
think any of the thread cutting oils on steel will be better than motor 
oil but in a pinch, even WD-40 is better than dry.

rhg

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: 7 Jun 1996 21:58:37 GMT

One thought on cutting oils:  I've bought plumber's cutting oil at the local
(huge) hardware store.  A 1-qt bottle of Nu-clear (cute name, eh?  Didn't
think so either) cost a few bucks, and it's lasted several threads.

In the US, one of the major plumbing tool manufacturers (Ridgid, or however
they spell their name) sells a cutting oil available in large quantities.

Back in the stone age, I worked at a hardware store that cut and threaded
pipe to order, and we used the junk by the gallon.  (Well, the threading
machine reservoir was good for a couple of gallons.  Consumed quantities
were quite low.)  That particular goop was heavily sulfured, with a distinct
stink.  Worked damned well, however.  We'd have a bunch of high school
kids cutting and threading, and we never destroyed any die heads while
I was there.  (Yeah, I was one of the kids.)  We broke a lot of things
at that store, but never any plumbing tools.  That goop was a great lubricant!

Pete Brooks

---

From: PPIERCE <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 09:38:46 -0700

Bruce Conner wrote:
> 
> You have me pegged.  Yes, the whole point is not so much to have the
> finished product as to MAKE the thing.  Price is a minor consideration.

Sort of thought that was what we were here (hobby) for...

> "Money is no object.  I have no money!"

I know the feeling... 

> I have a copy of the Howe volumes available to me through a library and
> they should be here in a few days.  I actually found them in a bookstore
> last fall and didn't buy them and when I went back they were gone!  Arrg!

Sure glad you found them...  Kee[p your eyes ope for your own copies.
 
> with "primative" tools.  Fun Fun Fun!

Just got an email from a man who agreed andd was rifling his own 
barrels.  He started with shotout machinegun barrels.  Hope he contacts 
you...

> 
> Good to see there is someone else out there who does things for the love
> of it.  No money in it, but that's not why I'm doing it.

If it was for money, I sure as heck wouldn't have bought the lathe, 
mill/drill, etc....  That's my tobacco, whiskey, and wild women money!!!
I don't have a pickup, bass boat, or what-have-you...

I think that I wish to build an engine(s).  I've started a Stuart 10H 
(3/4" bore).

Have fun and good luck with your barrel(s)

---

From: [email-masked] (Walter Daniels)
Date: 12 Jun 1996 20:35:45 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Rick Cook) wrote:
>Randall Gray wrote:
>>#rant on
 < Some irrelevancies snipped here.>
>Historically I don't think black powder rifle barrels were ever bored out

  Don't ask me the name, as it was in 1977-79 time period, but I watched a 
movie on rifle making at Colonial Williamsburg. IIRC, the maker forged an iron 
barrel as basically round stock. That means it started as approxciamtely round 
and had flats filed onto it. It was then drilled in some cases, in others 
forged around a mandrel. Again, IIRC, it was usually drilled and then rifled ( 
a most interesting process). While the mandrel process was better, it required 
resources not always available to settlers.
>--RC

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From: [email-masked] (Ken Knaell)
Date: 12 Jun 1996 19:29:22 -0400

>>My info about barrels drilled from solid stock comes from a book by Ned
<things snipped here>
Ya know, It just occurred to me that I've heard something on this
gun barrel subject somewhere before which is what I was going to
say here then it occurred once more to me, "Where did I hear what
I was about to say".  Actually I think I heard it here.  Is there
a big mirror out in the sky that bounces these subjects back to earth
so that they get repeated every now and then on this media?

Anyway, what I was going to say is I had heard there was a tour
through some high quality British sporting rifle company where
they come to point and a company representative take a brand new
hand made rifle out of a rack and bends the barrel (how I don't
know, maybe in a press).  He hands it over to one of their
expert barrel straighteners and this guy puts it back in as-
good-as-new straightness.  The expert straightener just uses
his eyeball and looks through the barrel and does it on an
intuitive basis (maybe using a press again).

Don't ask me if its true.  I know I didn't dream it (or did
I?). I heard it somewhere and I dont read any gun magazines
so I probably heard it here.  Who told this story?  Are you
listening?

What this must mean is when you get through pounding and
drilling then you got to start looking and bending.  Got
to read the rest of the articles and go home before it gets
too late.

later,
ken, bethesda, md

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From: [email-masked] (Roy Parker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 01:02:11 GMT

>resources not always available to settlers.
The barrel also required straightening, which was done (from the docs
I have) by eye.  They would ream the bore, rifle and polish it.  Then,
by sighting down the bore, see where the crooks were, and either bend
it or hammer it until it was straight.  This was apparently done by
eye.    I've never done it, but have to admit I've tried my hand at
several similar old timey skills.  I'm convinced that the skilled old
timers could do excellent work by eye and experience that we today can
only do with very expensive machine tools.  

They had the capability, but it was awfully expensive since every part
had to be made by hand.

Roy Parker--Buckskinner, brewer, and semi-handyman
Booshway, 1998 SW Regional Rendezvous.  Houston, Texas
[email-masked]  [email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Galloway)
Date: 14 Jun 1996 08:00:55 -0600

>to read the rest of the articles and go home before it gets

Back in the early days of "Guns and Ammo" magazine they had a regular 
column by a gunsmith located out in Utah.  He seemed to know what he was 
talking about on every topic I did know something about so I trust him on 
this.  He said he straightened (I believe he said all) match rifle 
barrels after machining.  There were pictures of him sighting down the 
bore and then placing the barrel in a big manual screw type press and 
tweeking it a bit.  Anybody remember the guys name?

rhg

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From: [email-masked] (COUGER GORDON)
Date: 14 Jun 1996 14:27:56 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>tweeking it a bit.  Anybody remember the guys name?
I beleive you are talking about Parker Ackley.

As I recall production shops had a screw press at eye level. You put the barrel
in the press and looked through it at a line a good distance away. Once you 
found the bend and got it aligned in the press you bent it a little more than
the bend to allow for spring back.

I have not done gun barrels but I have straightened about every thing else. It 
is not as difficlult as it sounds unless it has a kink in it. You pick up the
eye pretty quickly. 

If you try straighting stuff in a hydrolic press make sure it is securly in the
press. Until  you have had a curved 1X2 peice of tempered steel come flying out
of a 50 ton press you don't understand the danger of a press.

Good luck
gordon

Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist
Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept.  Oklahoma State Univ.
114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Jun 1996 01:55:08 GMT

>tweeking it a bit.  Anybody remember the guys name?
I bet it was P. O. Ackley

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From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:32:13 GMT

>I bet it was P. O. Ackley

Ackley lived in Cimmaron New Mexico and later Trinidad Colorado.  He
left behind a very good gunsmithing school in Trinidad.

-- 
Russ Kepler posting from home  [email-masked]

                      Please don't feed the Engineers