Subject: Re: workshop layout

From: [email-masked] (Paul Pierce)
Date: 23 Apr 1996 05:06:15 GMT

Be sure to run 200 volts to the garage. Even if you don't need it now,
>>you may later. If your compressor will run on 220, that is a better
>>choice than sucking 15A of 110. And some day you'll have a welder or
>>machine tool that wants 220.

Be sure to use a 220 receptacle.  I read an article a while back where 
the author said "I'll be the only one using it and I know that outlet is 
220V".
Don't count on that...!  Sounded like a booby trap for grandchildren, 
wives, etc.

-
  PAUL PIERCE in AJ AZ
  [email-masked]

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From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:45:33 -0500

Right, I guess you didn't understand.  The nuetral is the white wire and
it also runs through all of the boxes.  The white and the copper are 
connected to the ground buss in the service entrance box, not anywhere
along the run.  Then it is, of course, connected to the nuetral pin on
the 220 Volt connector.
John

On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Carl Grinnell wrote:

> "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> 
> >I used to and still do, use a wireing trick in my shop.  I use an
> >appropriate three conductor wire with ground to all the outlet boxes.
> >Then I connect the white and the copper to ground, the black to A phase
> >and the red to B phase.  Now I have 110 from either red or black to the
> >nuetral, and 220 from red to black. 
> 
> 
>    It sounds like you have got a very good idea here.   However, I do
> have one small quibble.
> 
>    The National Electric Code specifies that the neutral must be
> carried all of the way back to the main supply panel (where the power
> first comes to you from your power company) without any connections to
> ground.
>  
>    Since you don't need to use it for a ground ( you already have a
> ground wire) you can fold it back out of the way after you have taped
> it off.
> 
>                                                  Carl Grinnell
> 
> 
>

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From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:55:26 -0500

I use them for motor circuits.  I do wire the nuetral as nuetral and the
ground as frame ground.  I was a journeyman electrician and am quite
familiar with the code.  The trick in keeping the load balanced it to
plug as many things in the bottom half as you do in the top half on the
110 items.  Actually, I do NOT have any 110 motors, because almost any
shop motor can be wired as EITHER 110 or 220, so I just wire them ALL to
220.  That way I get less pulldown at starting, and fewer balance 
problems on the circuits.  Major motors have their OWN circuit anyway.
I have 48 circuits in my house!  I get a little carried away sometimes.
When the carpenters were hanging my sheetrock, they complained that there
wasn't a single piece of sheetrock in the entire house that didn't have
an outlet in it!  I did my own wiring, and hired guys to do the sheetrock
stuff!
John

On 25 Apr 1996 [email-masked] wrote:

> In <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Chris Kantarjiev) writes:
> >
> >>nuetral, and 220 from red to black.  For 110 outlets I split the outlet
> >>by breaking off the little ears.  Put black on top, red on bottom,
> >>both to nuetral on the other side.  That gives me two 110 outlets that
> >>are on different circuits.  
> >
> >This is called a split duplex outlet; it's common practice in Canada for
> >"small appliance circuits" but doesn't seem to be used much in the US. If
> >you're wiring in an environment that requires GFCI protection, you 
> >need a tandem GFCI breaker on the circuit pair (expensive).
> >
> >It's also probably not a very good idea for motor circuits, since the 
> >loading of each leg can be rather unbalanced, causing a lot of current
> >flow through the neutral. 
> >
> >(I also hope you're wiring the ground and white separately, to frame ground 
> >and neutral respectively - the paragraph above reads as if you're 
> >wiring them together to frame ground, which is a no-no.)
> 
> Except at the service entrance.... (sorry, just had to say that.)
> 
> 
> ===========================================================
> 
>  1959 BMW R50                                           Jim Rozen              
>  1969 BMW R60US                                (JRR0 @ watson.ibm.com)                 
>  1975 BMW R75/6    (The "new" one)        
> 
> ===========================================================
> 
>

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From: [email-masked] (Richard W. Klopp)
Date: 26 Apr 1996 15:38:30 GMT

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960425151640.22484Q-100000@reliant>, "John R.
Johnson" <[email-masked]> wrote:

> and the red to B phase.

DO NOT ground the white, neutral wire any place except at the main
disconnect box! It is dangerous to do so and not necessary. If you ground
the neutral, you are setting up a situation where the ground wire, the
conduit (if you use it) or YOU could become the return path for current.
This situation could arise if the neutral circuit is accidentlally opened,
say by corrosion, loose screw, an errant nail, etc. There is no reason to
take a chance. Grounding the neutral at the receptacle buys you nothing.
Never, ever, skip the neutral altogether, either, hoping to use the ground
as the neutral!

Otherwise, John's plan for balanced three-wire is sound. Make sure, though
that the red and black are on opposite poles of the circuit breaker panel.
If they're not, (1) you won't get 220 between them, and (2) the neutral
that they share will be overloaded. When the red and black are on opposite
poles and equally loaded, the load on the neutral is zero since the "plus"
and "minus" returns cancel each other out. Not all electricians like the
balanced three-wire arrangement, however, since it isn't always obvious
that a certain neutral is shared and it's therefore easy to get red and
black on the same pole and overload the neutral. Leave a note in the box
for the next guy.

-- 
Rich Klopp
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 25 Apr 1996 22:10:39 GMT

1959 BMW R50                                           Jim Rozen

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From: [email-masked] (Chris Kantarjiev)
Date: 25 Apr 1996 21:12:47 GMT

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From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:22:49 -0500

I used to and still do, use a wireing trick in my shop.  I use an
appropriate three conductor wire with ground to all the outlet boxes.
Then I connect the white and the copper to ground, the black to A phase
and the red to B phase.  Now I have 110 from either red or black to the
nuetral, and 220 from red to black.  For 110 outlets I split the outlet
by breaking off the little ears.  Put black on top, red on bottom,
both to nuetral on the other side.  That gives me two 110 outlets that
are on different circuits.  If I ever need 220 somewhere, I can just take
out the 110 outlet, and get a 220 outlet and wire it red on one side and
black on the other, and nuetral to nuetral.  Now I have a standard 220
outlet and I can put one into ANY outlet box in my shop without rewireing
anything other than the actual outlet I am converting.  No wife traps
either.  I keep a few 220 replacement plugs and single outlets in the
bin so I can whip up a 220 connection wherever I need it in no time.
John

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From: [email-masked] (Carl Grinnell)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:21:43 GMT

Carl Grinnell

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From: [email-masked] (Steve Rayner)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:20:47 GMT

The electrical code in Canada, requires split duplex outlets for kitchen 
counters.

-- 
************************************************************************
     MY SECRET IS OIL OF HARLEY DAVIDSON !      Steve Rayner
************************************************************************

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From: [email-masked] (Ken Knaell)
Date: 2 May 1996 19:52:04 -0400

>nuetral, and 220 from red to black.  For 110 outlets I split the outlet
Text cut short here to allow this short response to pass the response
longer than the original requirement.

How about going one more step in convenience and put two 110v *plugs*
on the 220v input cable to the appliance.  Then you would not have to
tear apart the boxes on the wall.  Also *anyone* seeing two plugs
hanging on the end of a single cable would know something is a little
different and should be careful.  Also you are doubeling up on the
neutral and ground contacts which should make their current carrying
capacity better.  The 110v plugs and sockets should of course be with
    grounding pins so that the plugs will only fit the sockets in
their correct orientation.  Interchanging the plugs from time to time
should make no diff.

This is definately a wierd idea but if we can consider running air in
PVC pipe we can consider the above in this group, can't we?

ken
bethesda, md

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: 11 May 1996 00:20:30 GMT

: I might have missed the part myself about splitting a 30A circuit--my example
: was based on a 20A split circuit, where 12ga wire is OK.  If it were a 30A
: circuit, the wire would need to be able to handle 30+40%, or 42A.  As I
: recall, 12ga THHN wire is good for 40A, so you probably would need 10ga
: wire.

Further clarification:  The NEC says that any given neutral wire must be
capable of carrying 140% of the circuit breaker rating.  For 20A cable,
that's 28A, and according to the ampacity table in the NEC, for THHN 
(conduit type wire), 12ga copper can handle 40A and is fine in a 20A
split circuit.

Pete Brooks

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From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: 11 May 1996 22:03:24 GMT

Peter Brooks ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Further clarification:  The NEC says that any given neutral wire must be
: capable of carrying 140% of the circuit breaker rating.  For 20A cable,
: that's 28A, and according to the ampacity table in the NEC, for THHN 

Oh damn; shouldn't have posted when I was tired.  That's for any *split-phase*
load, where the breakers handle X current, the neutral must be able to handle
X * 1.4 current.  The hots are sized normally.

Pete