Subject: Re: horiz. mill as surface grinder?

From: [email-masked] (Barry Wolinetz)
Date: 23 Apr 1996 18:22:41 GMT

Wm. Congreve (Sr.) ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Looking at the catalogs, surface grinders which appear to be just about
: identical to small horizontal milling machines are offered, and are
: very expensive. Is there any good reason (except for the problem of
: keeping grit out of lead screws and such) not to use a horizontal
: milling machine for surface grinding?

: Thanks.
:                Alan Heldman

Alan;

I don't know about ALL horizontal mills, but the little one I have doesn't
look capable of achieving the necessary RPMs to effectively drive a grinding
wheel.  I could probably rig something up (Phil Duclos has an article in the
"shop Wisdom of Phil Duclos" about it) but to make a 'real' surface grinder
I would need to replace the bearings at a minimum.

Barry 
--

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 23 Apr 1996 19:07:36 GMT

I have started doing a bit of end mill sharpening on my vertical mill.
I use a fixture designed for a surface grinder, and a cup-type wheel in
the spindle, which can be vertical for this application.  I have also
ground vise jaws and similar things, again using the vertical spindle.
I don't see any reason that a mill with a good table (showing minimal
wear and sag) shouldn't be capable of doing surface grinding.  I have
installed 'way covers' on my machine, which makes me worry a lot less
about the grit getting into the ways.  At least on a machine that follows
the Bridgeport design, the screws are pretty well protected, but the
Y axis ways aren't.  Due to the design of common milling machine tables
where the ends of the table are unsupported, the mill is LESS accurate
that the typical surface grinder.  But this may be alright for your
application.  A surface grinder is designed to take very large wheels
spinning at high speed.  The typical horizontal mill is not capable of
delivering high speeds to the horizontal spindle, but that could be
fixed on belt-driven machines.  If a modest size wheel is run between
supports, it will probably do well.  One note - the method of securing
the front support on a horizontal mill severely limits accuracy in the
type of operation you contemplate!  You will have to loosen the front
support every time you raise the knee, thereby throwing off the alignment
of the arbor.  You might do better grinding against the SIDE of the
wheel, and moving the saddle front/back instead of raising the knee
as the fine adjust.  That makes the vertical mill look almost as good
as the horizontal for this.  Of course, the over-arm support on the
big H mills would make it work fine.

---

From: [email-masked](Wm. Congreve (Sr.) )
Date: 23 Apr 1996 02:16:37 GMT

Looking at the catalogs, surface grinders which appear to be just about
identical to small horizontal milling machines are offered, and are
very expensive. Is there any good reason (except for the problem of
keeping grit out of lead screws and such) not to use a horizontal
milling machine for surface grinding?

Thanks.
               Alan Heldman

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Bayview crafts & antiques show (outdoor)
Date: Sat,July 6,1996 (rain or shine)
Time : 10:00 am-6:00pm
Location : Bayview/sheppard ave in Metropolitan 
Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Booth Size : 10'x 10'
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---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 01:02:37 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>milling machine for surface grinding?

Most surface grinders with which I'm familiar allow pretty precise
adjustment of the grinding wheel - typically in .0005" increments,
less when you have the feel for it.  In addition, not too many
horizontal mills allow 3600 RPM.

-- 
Russ Kepler posting from home  [email-masked]

                      Please don't feed the Engineers

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 24 Apr 1996 12:56:15 GMT

>Is there any good reason (except for the problem of 
 
I just bought a used surface grinder (Boyer Schultz 6 x 12  $ 1200) and I
love it. I had been grinding as you suggest and found I couldn't get a good
surface finish. The x feed on a surface grinder is designed rapid travel
which is important , the vertical is designed for very small adjustments, 
the bearings are designed for 3600 rpm with little error.  For me it was  a
much better solution then using my mill. I now consider a surface grinder
ESSENTIAL.

---

From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Apr 1996 18:52:50 GMT

Yes.  :-)

Well, sort of.  One reason I can think of is the problem of
feeding the table at a reasonable speed.  Cranking a handwheel
to feed the table of a surface grinder back and forth would
get old real fast.

Now, there were small horizontal milling machines made with 
rack and pinion drive on the X-axis of the table.  They were
used, I think, for slitting operations.  One of those would 
make the process almost reasonable.

You do have the problem of grit though, and getting a fine 
enough downfeed on the grinding wheel might be a bit of a
problem; it would be nice to be able to split thousandths.

---

From: Roger M Weppelman <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Apr 1996 18:52:03 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:
> 
>>Is there any good reason..  not to use a horizontal 
 I had been grinding as you suggest and found I couldn't get a good
>the bearings are designed for 3600 rpm with little error.  

I offer a different way to skin the cat--mount a tool post grinder in the tool post 
of your shaper: the grinder gives you the right rpm;  the ram gives you the rapid x 
feed noted above; the table gives you automatic y feed; and the down feed screw 
gives you the sensitive verticle adjustment. 

Roger Weppelman

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Drumm)
Date: 25 Apr 1996 00:30:39 GMT

In message <[email-masked]> - [email-masked]
(Russ Kepler) writes:
->
->In article <[email-masked]>,
->Wm. Congreve (Sr.)  <[email-masked]> wrote:
->>Looking at the catalogs, surface grinders which appear to be just about
->>identical to small horizontal milling machines are offered, and are
->>very expensive. Is there any good reason (except for the problem of
->>keeping grit out of lead screws and such) not to use a horizontal
->>milling machine for surface grinding?
->
->Most surface grinders with which I'm familiar allow pretty precise
->adjustment of the grinding wheel - typically in .0005" increments,
->less when you have the feel for it.  In addition, not too many
->horizontal mills allow 3600 RPM.
->
->-- 
->Russ Kepler posting from home  [email-masked]
->
->                      Please don't feed the Engineers

A couple more big differences- the surface grinder table is shorter than the
ways, and rides 'in' the ways, I'd guess this is to prevent table sag. The SG
table also moves much faster than a milling table.

[email-masked]
Using Warp/Neologic News/IAK
Wausau, WI. 44d 58m 00s N x 89d 36m 45s W
All opinions are my own, even if they are wrong!

---

From: [email-masked] (Edk4)
Date: 24 Apr 1996 22:30:40 -0400

>gives you the sensitive verticle adjustment. 

Roger 

Have you actually done this yourself? I have a shaper and a tool post
grinder and I've  been thinking of trying this myself for a couple of
years, but I'd love to have someone else's experience first. If you have,
and have some advice, it would be best to post the answer, I think, for
all of us. Thanks. 

------------------
Ed Kingsley

---

From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:50:51 -0500

I mounted a tool post grinder on the arm of my aged horizontal mill.
Bolted the parts down to the table and surface ground them, no problem.
I used some plastic sheeting to keep the runoff and the grinder stuff
off of the ways.  Cranked the table speed up, no problem.  I used a
cup type wheel mounted facing down.  The knee adjust gave me adequate
feed accuracy.  My parts came out withing .005 mm which met MY needs.
John

---

From: "John R. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:19:53 -0500

The other question is catching pieces of the grinding wheels if they
should come apart.  A Dumore tool port grinder should be reasonably
safe if this regard, but be cautious with cobbled up ones.  The wet
towel is a good idea.  I used an old piece of formica that I had laying
around and put 4 mil poly under everything and over the ways to catch
the water and the grinder swarf.  I did NOT want that stuff all over
my shop.  I have enough problems trying to keep my shop reasonably 
clean. :-)
John

On 26 Apr 1996, Charlie Greenman wrote:

> [email-masked](Wm. Congreve (Sr.) ) wrote:
> Well, for starters are you looking at new surface grinders
> and used milling machines? I've seen a number of used (and
> probably very used) surface grinders for less than $2K. Also
> most surface grinders (other than "toolroom" or tool and
> cutter grinders) have automatic power feed on both x and
> y axis, and it's adjustable. And they tend to be very
> accurately made ... the good ones, with predicatable z
> axis travel of .0005". And as you say, they are draped.
> And again the good ones have ball rollars for the table 
> and the table is very well supported. And they run with
> racks rather than leadscrews. And on and on.
> 
> And all that said, I think hanging a dumore toolpost grinder
> off either a horizontal or vertical (off the ram or supported
> by the head) milling machine a really good idea for model
> making applications. You'd shoot the crap in one direction
> and you'd want to protect the machine on that end. And I
> think one would want to hang a wet cloth towel on the
> receiving end. I've thought a lot about this, having a
> dumore toolpost grinder and vertical milling machine. It
> should work fine, so long as one is careful. I must say
> though that grinding in the shop does scare me a bit. I
> think you'd want to figure out how to capture the crap
> instead of letting it fly through the air. The wet towel
> is what's come to me.... be curious of other ideas.
> 
> /Charlie
> 
> 
>

---

From: Roger M Weppelman <[email-masked]>
Date: 26 Apr 1996 17:54:44 GMT

>years, but I'd love to have someone else's experience first. 
>Ed Kingsley
>
>I read it in some old time book but have not tried it (in fact I am still looking around for a good bargain on a used tool post grinder). So, Ed, you have the honor of going first. I look forward to hearing how you make out.

Regards,

Roger Weppelman

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:53:59

In article <[email-masked]> Roger M Weppelman <[email-masked]> writes:
<snip>
>gives you the sensitive verticle adjustment. 

Right on!  Make a additional slide to mount the grinder on at 5 3/4 degrees
(from horizontal) to get 10:1 feed and your side dial will give ten-thousands
for each thousanth division.

---

From: Charlie Greenman <[email-masked]>
Date: 26 Apr 1996 11:46:01 GMT

/Charlie

---

From: [email-masked] (Greg Dermer)
Date: 25 Apr 96 19:46:01 GMT

>               Alan Heldman

First off, for small shop use, it will probably work. Here are the issues:

1) As you mention, grit on the ways and leadscrews is a big issue.
Once the grit is there it "beds" in the surface and is hard to get rid of.
Of course machine wear is dramatically increased.  "Real" surface grinders
generally have the ways "turned upside down" and shrouded by overhangs on
the machine table to protect them.

2) Spindle speeds might not be as high as you might like.  Most small SG's
use 3600 rpm wheel speed.

3) Work speed under the wheel will not be as high as you might like.  You
typically traverse the work under the wheel at a pretty good clip. On a
SG, at least older ones, a rack and pinion was used to make this easy. On
a mill, you'll have to crank fast (unless you have something like a production
or hand mill).  Surface grinding usually implies lots of fast passes with
very little metal removed per pass (~0.001 or less).  I'm talking toolroom
grinding here, not production grinding.  Your arm will get very muscular
>from  all that cranking!  Less than optimal speeds/feeds will degrade finish.

On balance, cover the ways and lead screws (really well), run the spindle at
top speed (not to exceed the wheel rating of course), take light cuts and
crank fast.  Try it.  (don't forget to be careful taking the coverings off
the ways that you don't get the grit on the ways)

Greg
[email-masked]

---

From: Charlie Greenman <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Apr 1996 12:00:25 GMT

Hi. I have both a shaper (7" SouthBend) and a toolpost
grinder (Dumore 1/4hp).

The Dumore book (more marketing lit than anything) from
the 1940's/50's, shows their toolpost grinders being hung
>from  almost anything, including shapers. But note the
scale! The grinder they discussed was a 1/2hp model (model
5 I think) and the shaper clapper box was just about 1/2
the size of the motor! So we're talking serious shapers
here, like the big Cincinatti's. Several tons of shaper :-)

I thought for about 5 minutes of mounting the Dumore on
the shaper. It won't work. Too heavy. Even if you removed
the clapper box and mounted it directly to the ram vertical
slide it would be too heavy. Way too heavy.

Also note that the table (at least on mine, perhaps not
yours?) has no "scale" for the z axis so you would have
to use the vertical slide on the ram to adjust the thing.
And I don't think there's enough precision in it, again
given the weight of the Dumore, for it to work.

Finally, you'd HAVE to set the wheel such that it threw
the crap straight back at the operator! Otherwise it would
toss it all right into the machine. So you'd have to carefully
aim the shaper such that it would be a pain in the ass to
use it for anything other than grinding. If this makes 
sense.

Now, hanging the Dumore on a milling machine? Ah, I think
THAT might work fine!

My .02

/Charlie

---

From: Charlie Greenman <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Apr 1996 12:00:24 GMT

My .02

/Charlie

---

From: Roger M Weppelman <[email-masked]>
Date: 30 Apr 1996 14:46:39 GMT

>the shaper. It won't work. Too heavy. 

Charlie,
Clearly you have thought this one through and I appreciate your comments. I had 
underestimated the weight of tool post grinders. The lighest Thermac Grinder in the 
Enco catalog is listed at 22 lbs. If I had one, I would probably try it on my 7 inch 
Atlas but I would not be totally confident that the ram would behave ok with the 
extra weight.(I suspect that your Dumore grinder is even heavier).

>toss it all right into the machine. 

I am not sure that I understand this one. Couldn't you set it up so that the crap 
went straight out the front, which would miss the operator standing by the side of 
the machine ?

Roger Weppelman

---

From: [email-masked] (Edk4)
Date: 3 May 1996 16:09:32 -0400

>>the shaper. It won't work. Too heavy. 

Might the powered headstock from a Unimat or Sherline lathe be attached to
the ram. They're light and run at fairly high speeds. I know they're not
terribly powerful, but for a one shot operation, it might be doable.

At least the shaper operation is mostly automatic. Add a little patience,
and voila.(?)
I hate to give up this without a fight. It's just too good an idea,
especially if you've got a shaper hanging around, looking for work.

-----------------
Ed Kingsley

---

From: [email-masked](Max ben-Aaron )
Date: 4 May 1996 13:12:35 GMT

High their:

In HSM of July/August 1994, on page 28, as part of a series on making a
rifle action by Walter B. Mueller, there is a photograph of a grinding
head he made for his South Bend shaper.

Mb-A

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