Subject: CNC wars

From: 103334,[email-masked] (Dan Falck)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:06:18 GMT

I wanted to make a comment about the Ahha, Sherline CNC, Microkinetics
debate that I saw on this group over the last month.
Six years ago, I wanted to retrofit my model 30 mill/drill as a mini
CNC.  I started out reading a series of articles in Home Shop
Machinist called "Convert Your Mill/Drill to CNC"  It seemed that this
should be a worthwhile endeavor.  Roland Friestad was the author and
apparently also the owner of Cardinal Engineering.  His series of
articles was great- He had details for everything needed to convert a
mill/drill of generic variety into a CNC.  There were drawings for the
motor brackets, drawings of the ball screws, references on where to
get ball screws, controllers, software- everything.  I didn't opt for
the Centroid/Cardinal controller, but I did cut out the motor brackets
and followed a lot of what Roland had to offer.  At about the same
time,  I saw an ad in HSM for Ahha! CNC retrofit kits.  I sent in for
the info pack and demo software.  The demo kit was very good.  It went
on further to explain more details about the secrets of CNC
retrofitting.  The Ahha demo looked good, but it didn't warrant the
cash that they wanted verses my intended use.
Phase three of my retrofitting education came when I started
corresponding with Dan Mauch from Camtronics.  He has a great web page
at http://www.seanet.com/~dmauch/.  Dan encourages new users to try
Dancad3d/Dancam- an older shareware(freeware- now that Dan Hudgins
doesn't support it anymore- I know because I have corresponded with
him) becuase it is free and great.  I use Dancam.  It does do the job
for home use.  I use Autocad and Smartcam with a Fadal and Komo at
work and I do know that there are limitations for a program such as
Dancam- but who cares?  The program is simple and it works.
The bottom line for me:
1.  All the other software costs too much for home use- my wife would
kill me if I spent any more money on the garage shop.
2.  I bought my drives from General Controls- I should have bought
them from Dan Mauch- but I was too dumb to realize that he sells the
same thing for much cheaper.
3.  I did buy my 300 oz/in motors from Dan Mauch.  They work well.
4.  I don't have ballscrews.  The software compensates for backlash.
5.  I don't have a Bridgeport so my capacity/accuracy is limited by
the mill/drill anyway.

Price of software and associated drives:
3 x 2 amp motor drive   $99 ea
24V power supplu          free- from discarded Decwriter III
2 x 300 oz/in motors     $75 ea
6 x Timing belt pulleys   $10 ea
1 x 110 oz/in motor	free (ripped out of old printer)
software-Dancam	free
 
That comes to roughly $510 not counting the old computer that I
already had and the mill itself.  Oh and by the way,  it does cut
metal.  It can mill aluminum and steel but it's not as fast as the
Fadal at work.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 21:48:11 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, 103334,[email-masked] (Dan
Falck) writes:

>I wanted to make a comment about the Ahha, Sherline CNC, >Microkinetics

I guess that the "wars" must have been pretty entertaining for those who
were just watching!

In the begining I too had started with dancad / cam. I have always told
those who were interested that the software did in fact work, it just
wasnt that user friendly. I even used the optimizer program that Dan Mauch
offered as well. 

The most rudimentary CNC system will allow the machine to make parts very
easily that would be very tough if not impossible to make manually.

For anyone starting out on a low cost CNC project, this is a very good
place to start. You will learn a lot about all aspects of building,
setting up and programing your machine. 

It is also important to recognize the differences in the various packages
as well as the levels of support and functionality that are offered
ESPECIALLY when comparing these products. 

There have been several different companies that have come and gone in
this business. It seems that even Mr Hudgins has given up or isnt able to
continue to support  his program.  " (freeware- now that Dan Hudgins
doesn't support it anymore- I know because I have corresponded with him) "
This is not a high volume business and if you dont price your product
accordingly it is hard to stay in business for very long if you want to
contine to support and update your products.

Bill

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 01:29:05 GMT

>metal.  It can mill aluminum and steel but it's not as fast as the

For $510 I'm not surprrised it is not as quick. :)>

It is good to hear you have CNC in the shop too. I am surprised that
300oz-in motors have enough torque though, the y-axis oin my mill/drill is
*heavy*. What ratio are you running the timing belts at?

Peter

---

From: "Kurt Bjorn" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:14:46 -0600

Please forgive some simple questions from someone fascinated by CNC but a
bit intimidated...  

Can a B'port without Z axis feed be converted to a simple 2-axis CNC? 
and...

Does CNC conversion inhibit manual use of a mill?  Thanks to CNC gurus.

-- 
Kurt Bjorn

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 18:31:36 GMT

>contine to support and update your products.

You are of course correct here Bill, but Dan Mauch is also showing that it
can be done. There is no point having the best hardware or software in the
businesss if you have to price it high to stay in business. Intuit,
Borland Symantec and many many others have proven that low cost quality
software leads very quickly to high volume.

Back in about 1985 (I think) I interviewed Ben Rosen who was at that time
head of Symantec and had just released their Q&A database which later
became Paradox. This was in the midst of the stupid copy protection
paranoia where companies were tacking hundreds of dollars onto their
products for all manner of protection schemes.

Symantec's approach was to suggets that people take a copy and if they
liked it go buy it. The did and they did in droves. It was a good product
and it was 1/5th the price of dBase. Sold a bunch, still in buiness
although they sold it off to Borland for more figures than you can write
in a single line.

Borland have always had the same approach to low cost but quality
software. They finally bought dBase at a bargain basement price because
Ashton Tate could not figure out what Borland were doing to enable them to
sell so many copies of Paradox. Ashton Tate suffered the same fate as the
dinasours. (sp?)

There are millions of milling machines out there and most would stand a
good chance of being CNC fitted but not when it costs $10K+ to do it. I am
still mazed that people can charge $200+ for a 72 volt 10 amp power supply
that uses a $2.00 bridge a $48.00 transformer, an $11.00 cap, a $4.00
switch, a small piece of circuit board and some bent metal as a case.

Don't get me started on the "other" company's prices again, I had a 5,000+
*word* diatribe of invective and slander to wade through last time someone
tried/failed to justify the prices.

More power to Dan Mauch for his approach. I am waiting patiently for a 10
amp version of his controller having had my order cancelled by that
"other" company. That's their right of course, no-one has to sell to
anyone they don't want to , but it is a little short-sighted as I see it.

Peter