Subject: Re: Well I bought a lathe....

From: [email-masked] (Steve Jasik)
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:25:01 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
(Almus Kenter) wrote:

>        Well I finally did it, disregarding the ``look'' from the wife
>I bought a used Emco Maier Compact-8. Said lathe comes with 3&4 jaw chucks,
>steady rest and turret style tool holder. Seems to be in decent 
>condition. So..if anybody out there in netland is willing to give
>me:
>                advice on needed accessories and sources for such accesories.
>                Tips on setup,use,maintenance etc...
>        
>                  and of course
>                general encouragement
>
>I would be grateful....
>
>

Get them quick, the word I got at IMTS from the VP at Republic Lagun is 
that they are about to go bankrupt unless they raise cash soon.
The VP said that they had made offers to many firms and are looking for money.

While I suspect that someone will take over their stock of spare parts, ...
you should be careful.

It is a pity as they have a nice line of machinery.

Steve

----------------------------------------------------------
Steve Jasik             Author of 'The Debugger & MacNosy'
343 Trenton Way         http://www.jasik.com
Menlo Park CA 94025     415-322-1386  Voice Only

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:21:27 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Almus Kenter <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I bought a used Emco Maier Compact-8.

It's usually a lot better if you can convince the spouse that
the expenditure is a good idea, in that it'll keep you off the 
street and out of the local taverns (if, in fact it does).  That
way you can gain her active participation in future purchases.

>                                      Said lathe comes with 3&4 jaw chucks,

Hard to say without knowing what sort of machining you plan.  In
general you'll find that you need some tooling such as HSS bits,
carbide, tool holders, etc., all for general turning.  Some way of
holding a boring bar and the appropriate boring bars will be
necessary.  A 3 jaw chuck for the tailstock will be needed, as well
as lathe dogs and centers, live for the tail and dead for the
spindle.  

I'm not sure what you mean about accessories - you might need change
gears and a thread dial indicator, a toolpost grinder, an indexing
attachment, etc.  Most of that you should put off until a real need
arises.  Much can be made - I've made quite a bit for my little 12x36
Atlas.

>	Tips on setup,use,maintenance etc...

Oil it right, and don't cut yourself.  Keep it clean, wiping the ways
with way oil.  Get the right oils for the spindle bearings and the
ways.  A gallon of each will run $20 total from MSC, and well worth
it.  Get a copy of the operating manual from Blue Ridge Machinery, $15
and likely worth it.

>	  and of course general encouragement

Have fun - get some plastic or aluminum and whack it up.  Throw some 
chips.  Don't do anything serious or critical right away.  Plan on
making about half the tooling you'll want, it's fun.

-- 
Russ Kepler							[email-masked]

                    Please Don't Feed the Engineers

---

From: [email-masked] (Jens)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:29:19 -0700

"John Nicol" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I was thinking of starting with raiding the tapered wheel bearings out of a
>junk car and going from there.

I would like to also know if this will work ... I was thinking along
the same lines except I was going to spend the $18 (Canadian) for a
set of new trailer bearings. I am a little concerned as to how
accurate these bearings are or if there will be all kinds of runout
making the whole thing useless.

Jens

---

From: Roy Kiesling <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 05:39:08 GMT

Steve Jasik wrote:
> 
>
> Get them quick, (accessories, etc)

And not just because the manufacturer may be going out of business. 

One of the best decisions of my life was, when I bought my lathe, to 
spend hours with the catalog and buy every small accessory that I 
thought I might ever conceivably use (OK, no taper attachment, and 
haven't missed it). 

That was thirty-five years ago, and I couldn't possibly remember how 
much they all cost, but it was nothing compared to the convenience of 
finding that I had what I needed for a job that just got going late on a 
Saturday night. If you err on the side of having the thing you're not 
likely to go wrong...

Enjoy!

---

From: "John Nicol" <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Sep 1996 02:30:26 GMT

Russ Kepler <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

> arises.  Much can be made - I've made quite a bit for my little 12x36
I have the same lathe and am contemplating making a toolpost grinder.  By
any chance is this one of the things that you made?  If so I would be
grateful for any details that you could provide on how to build one.  

John Nicol		[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Sep 1996 04:39:57 GMT

What do you mean, "Don't cut yourself?"

The day is a total waste if I don't cause a little rust somewhere from
dripping blood.

Seriously,  go get your tetanus shot up to date and keep a bottle
of hydrogen peroxide near.

Remember your high school hygene or first aid class and make all
wounds bleed.  If you don't, you may end up like my neighbor.  He
pricked his finger on a clamp in a store.  The next day they barely
saved his life.  Turns out he was one of the first cases of the
'eats your body' infections.

After they controlled the infection, to save his hand they had to sew it inside the 
skin on his stomach.

Now he has a large 1" high puff of skin on the back of his hand.

Make every wound bleed.

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

---

From: John Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:19:37 -0400

Steve Jasik wrote:

(about Emco Maier spare parts)
> The VP said that they had made offers to many firms and are looking for money.
...
> It is a pity as they have a nice line of machinery.

They do have nice machinery. I have a Compact-8, and have always
wanted to purchase a compact 10 and a FB-2 mill. I have looked
over many machinery showrooms, and their new equipment is top
notch, but expensive.

I must admit that I find it a bit depressing; once again people
choose price over "quality". Someone recently posted that Frank
Maclean advocates the far-eastern mills, and while he does, he
does not make a lot of non-machinery items, so his "hobby" is
in the making and restoring of machines, not using them as a tool
to build something else.  (He'd love his arboga mill back again,
though)

There is a difference. I choose to build model steam locomotives,
not machine tools. Choose Emco, Myford, or whatever, and you are
guaranteed good products. Choose some of the others, and I am not
so sure...

Obviously, the machining world is deciding that the increasing
dependability of far-eastern tooling outweighs the advantages
of buying "the best". Kind of sad, in my mind.

John Stewart
[email-masked]

---

From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Sep 1996 13:57:28 GMT

I have a slightly different take on the issue of the disappearing 'good' machine tool 
manufacturers.

1.  The reason most of the 'good' guys are disappearing is that machine shops need to 
go CNC to survive.  The old 'good' guys either start supplying CNC like South Bend 
does or they disappear.

2.  The amateur market can only sustain a few manufacturers in the world.  If we lose 
EMCO and, gasp, should I say it, Myford, we folks would be in a world of hurt 
vis-a-vis our hobby.

3. Given 1 & 2 above, I recommend that people get a good lathe first and think about a 
mill later (Hopefully Bridgeport will stay in business for a while and anyway, there 
seems to always be used Bridgeports available in the commercial market).  

To expand on this statement:  Many of us get a marginal lathe because it is cheap and 
somewhat more available than the better, older U.S.-built lathes like Logan, SB, 
Rockwell, etc.  Then we spend our money (if we have any) on a mill which, if you are 
like me, keeps you poor buying tooling.  Now, no money for a better lathe so we 
struggle on with the smaller (or eastern) lathe or we fix the problems in one manner 
or the other.

4. The reason for purchasing a good lathe first or doing a trade-in is that there are 
no more 'good' lathes in production (except EMCO and Myford and they are much more 
expensive than a 'good' older U.S.-made lathe).

The problem here is that while the 'good' lathe supply remains constant, this hobby is 
growing.  I think this phenomenon is starting to effect the price of the older 'good' 
lathe.  When I started four years ago, the going price for a Craftsman 6" in good 
shape here in Silicon Valley was $400.  Now the asking price is $600 to $1,000.

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

BTW, Scott, when is Logan going back into production?

---

From: Jeffrey Prothero <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:35:02 -0700

On 18 Sep 1996, Ray Spinhirne wrote:

> Jens ([email-masked]) wrote:
> : "John Nicol" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
> : >I was thinking of starting with raiding the tapered wheel bearings out of a
> : >junk car and going from there.
>
> : I would like to also know if this will work ... I was thinking along
> : the same lines except I was going to spend the $18 (Canadian) for a
> : set of new trailer bearings. I am a little concerned as to how
> : accurate these bearings are or if there will be all kinds of runout
> : making the whole thing useless.
>
> : Jens

As I remember roller bearings are more accurate than ball bearings.
And the trailer bearings ought to work at vastly greater speeds than they
see on trailers.  However the load would have to be much less.  You aren't
planning to press against the grinding wheel with four or fine hundred
lbs.  ( sorry, I know I should be using dynes. ) force.

Ask your industrial bearing supplier to let you look at one of the books
on bearing selection.

I have been thinking of using new roller bearings from W. W. Grainger.

					Cheers,

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:53:18 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>The day is a total waste if I don't cause a little rust somewhere from

My wife maintains that no project I ever work on is complete until I
bleed on it somewhere.  I've got a lot of scars from simple little
home projects to big scars from big home projects (usually involving
#5 rebar).  Makes me a bit afraid to approach some projects I've
always thought complete...

As to causing rust I was at a gunsmith's shop recently, hanging
around, causing trouble and like many, couldn't keep my hands from
doing something (anyone else have that problem?  Land in a shop and
start working instantly?  Hell, I've had Roy give me a file and start
me drawfiling barrels to stay out of trouble, when all I did was to
come by to borrow a tool...).  Anyway, I started picking swarf from
a barrel in the lathe, like a fool, and whacked a finger pretty deep,
'bout halfway to the bone from the face of my finger.  Blood oozing
instantly, Roy shouting "Don't get any blood on guns - rusts like
hell!".  Thanks for the concern, Roy. ;-)

>of hydrogen peroxide near.

Good idea.  I never seem to have problems with tetanus updates, as
soon as I don't recall the date of the last shot I seem to get a
renewal.  

>Make every wound bleed.

That's a starting point, but not an ending point.

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:37:49 GMT

In article <01bba509$58a33400$22cfb7c7@johnnico>,
>junk car and going from there.

I've not made one, but I've thought about it and I don't think that
wheel bearings would be a starting point.  They really aren't
designed to take the kind of speed that you'd be using in a TP
grinder - something designed to take a couple thousand rpm isn't
going to last at 20K rpm.  At the minimum you'll need bearings from
something like a die grinder or the like.  Preloaded and sealed for
grinder use is only the starting point.

In addition to the bearings you'll want a good motor, something in a
speed controllable Baldor if you plan to run it for too long.  You
might get away with a vacuum cleaner motor, but it's not going to
last as long in a shop environment as a commercial motor.

A couple of kits are available, one from MLA that looks clean and
nice, but carries a stiff price tag, and one from another source I
can't recall.  

Right now I borrow a TP grinder when I really need one.  If I was to
need one for production use I'd likely buy a used Dumore or the like
>from  one of the used machinery folks.  If I had some spare time in
the shop (Ha!) I might make the MLA kit, even though it'd cost more
than a used Dumore.

---

From: [email-masked] (John Dammeyer)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 06:44:40 GMT

>I have a slightly different take on the issue of the disappearing 'good' machine tool 
[SNIP]
>lathe.  

My two cents here.  Given that there is now incredibly powerful and
totally automatic CNC equipment available, including EDM  why is it
not possible to build smaller inexpensive, high quality lathes.  Seems
to me that given castings and and NC program or two that a 8"x36"
3/4HP lathe should not be that difficult to build.

Granted,  currently the far east is doing it with 'sweatshop' labour
but I always thought that where North Americans shined was their
ability to work smarter.  Or is it possible that the quality of the
far east equipment is already so high that without $3.00/day labour
North Maericans cannot compete.

Up here in Canada the local hobby shop has a Sherline for just under
$1000Cdn.  I can get a much larger, and just as good, I think, lathe
for $500Cdn more.  Granted,  not as portable but overall I think a
better deal.

Gingery's lathe seems to fit much of the size criteria,  7"x24" with
threading capabilities.  Ie:  Large diameter for those odd sized
projects and no more than 20" between centers.  That size lathe, using
automobile tapered roller bearings in a iron or bronze casting with a
one piece cast iron bed with NC machined and ground V ways cannot be
that expensive to manufacture, can it???

The Far east Combination Lathe/Mill machines seem to also fit that
criteria for size but is the workmanship there?  I bought a Delta
Unisaw because I liked the quality and the service.  General canme
really close but was $300Cdn more and service was questionable.  The
far east table saws wern't in the running.

So here perhaps a challenge.  Most people involved in this newsgroup
probably spend some time doing quotations or manufacturing stuff made
with Lathes, mills, shapers, welding equipment, laser or plasma
cutters etc.;  the new computer controlled variety.

Lets do the work here to determine,  given a set of properly designed
and well built patterns and premanufactured items like hand cranks
etc., what it would cost to manufacture a high quality lathe.  

The specifications should be the first subject for discussion.  I
think about 7"x24" should be adequate for most hobby applications.

Single phase power, 220 or 110.  

Power feed -  power cross feed too?  Lets put a quote together for
either one or both.

Taper roller bearings large enough so the hollow spindle can hold 1"
CRS and standard thread on spindle so that off-the-shelf three and
four jaw chucks can be used.  It does mean that a standard three or
four step pulley cannot be used on the spindle but a simple casting
and an NC lathe should be able to inexpensively turn out these types
of pulleys.  Or do we want a #3 Morse taper in the spindle and slighly
smaller stock holding capabilities?

Will Delrin or equivelent plastic gears be adequate for speed changes
and leadscrew threadcutting forces or must they be aluminum or stee?

Surely there must be enough engineering and manufacturing expertise
here in this forum to specify and design such a beast.

John.

Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
with arrows in their backs.
Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 604-544-4950
6468 Loganberry Place         Fax 604-544-4954
Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6

---

From: [email-masked] (Ray Spinhirne)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 18:10:07 GMT

: Jens

It would seem to me that the wheel bearings would not be designed for the
kind of speed you would need.  I used the spindle bearing from an old
"washing machine" disk drive, and the DC motor from a large tape drive
for mine.  I have not finished the control for the motor so I have only
used it a relatively slow speeds so far.  Works good for running drills
and small end mills.  Don't know about a grinding wheel.

---

From: [email-masked] (Steve Rayner)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:26:39 GMT

Taper roller bearings are not the best thing for a toolpost grinder.  The 
speeds are way too high.  Get some angular contact bearings, also sold as 
magneto bearings.  These can be run in excess of 10,000 RPM .

In a previous article, [email-masked] ("John Nicol") says:

>peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
>From: "John Nicol" <[email-masked]>
>Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
>Subject: Re: Well I bought a lathe....
>Date: 18 Sep 1996 02:30:26 GMT
>Organization: Netcom
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <01bba509$58a33400$22cfb7c7@johnnico>
>References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: prn-nj1-02.ix.netcom.com
>X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 17  9:30:26 PM CDT 1996
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
>
>
>

-- 
Steve.

**************  BE ALERT, THE WORLD NEEDS MORE LERTS ************************

---

From: [email-masked] (Felice Luftschein & Nicholas Carter)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:15:43 GMT

>3/4HP lathe should not be that difficult to build.

I'll take this as an opportunity to reccomend a book I just
bought at a used book store : Precision Machine Design
by Alexander Slocum, Prentice Hall(?) 1992. Although
parts of it are over my tiny head, he goes
into the economic factors in designing precision machines
(such as lathes) as well as all the engineering. I'm well into the
second chapter and think the book should be required reading.

I cast my vote for replaceable v ways made out of ground square stock,
fitted into an aluminum (or cast iron) bed with female vees cut into it.
Since the motor is usually a significant part of the cost of a lathe, and most 
of us have surplus motors, I would say it should be able to use any sort
of single speed (1750 rpm) motor.

---

From: [email-masked] (Greg Lewis)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 12:23:11 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
>That's a starting point, but not an ending point.  

On every project I do, I calculate the Blood Factor. The Blood Factor
is on a scale from 1 to 10:

1-2 Small scratches and scrapes. Some skin lost but no blood.  
3-4  Definite bleeding but clots quickly. Often this is the unnoticed
knuckle-bash when working on automobiles.  
5-6  Enough blood to require  attention--usually a trip inside the
house for a bandaging. Spousal sympathy level: .1
7-8 This level requires a trip to the doctor for wound cleaning
and stiches. Antibiotics and pain killers are sometimes prescribed.
This level still is usually treated in walk-in clinics or doctors'
offices. Spousal sympathy level: 7=.3; 8="How did you do that, you
ding-dong!"
9-10 This is the 911 level. Sometimes makes the newspaper, particulary
the column where really stupid tricks are reported. Emergency room
personnel seem amazed and surprised, sometimes laugh when out of
earshot of bleedee (and sometimes in earshot). Spousal sympathy level
high, often resulting in meeting your most minor needs. Milk this
situation.

For lathe work, I usually plan for a 1-2. Milling machines are also
reasonably safe provided spindle wrenches are removed before
activation, although in both cases, gravity tests with tooling
sometimes result in a 3. Other machine tools rarely rate more than a
4, but welding and hand-grinding are automatically classed as a 6.
Scrap-yard scrounging: 4 
Brake jobs: 4 
Honey-do's 3 except hanging curtains and blinds: 4 and installing new
garbage disposer: 5.

___________________________________________________________________
[email-masked]      	   	     They don't
Photojournalism sequence      	   	     Call this place
Department of Mass Communication   	     An institution
     and Journalism 	      	   	     For nothing
CSU Fresno, Fresno, CA 93740-0010

---

From: [email-masked] (John Dammeyer)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:23:37 GMT

[email-masked] (Felice Luftschein & Nicholas Carter) wrote:

>by Alexander Slocum, Prentice Hall(?) 1992.

Good Idea.

>of single speed (1750 rpm) motor.

Wouldn't replaceable V ways increase the cost?

My idea here is to use CAM expertise to produce a high quality lathe
and not to make another homebuilt version of the Gingery lathe.  Not
to say that the Gingery lathe cannot be high quality,  just high
labour.

This implies setting a casting into a CNC Mill and having it bring all
surfaces to the correct dimension and drilling all holes for bolts.
Perhaps such a machine can even tap all the required holes.  Perhaps
this will need a second machine.

John

---

From: [email-masked] (David William Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:23:48 GMT

>EMCO and, gasp, should I say it, Myford, we folks would be in a world of hurt 
 A small add-on:  my model engineering club recently hosted a
presentation by one of the bosses from Myford.  We can count our
blessings that they are one of the few British companies who
predicted the modern ways of the world and invested heavily and
early in ultra high-tech CNC machinery.  This means that they can
still produce their goods to the same standard without being too
expensive for the amateur.  The downside is that their workforce
was cut by a half.

In their current setup, one skilled man feeds 4 or 5 monstrous
machines.

He made one fascinating comment... the series 7 lathe has bronze
bearings, weighing about 1 pound each and about 4" diameter.  These
are hand-fitted and expensive to produce, but very accurate.  The
latest 254 lathe was designed to match that accuracy, but using
ball or roller bearings. The new bearings are huge, and need 2
hands to lift!

David Jenkins              -- aka --             Lathyrus Computers Ltd
***********************************************************************
* All incorrect spelling and grammar is intentional.  Corrections are *
* superfluous and will be ignored.  So there.                         *

---

From: [email-masked] (LWC1220)
Date: 19 Sep 1996 22:32:32 -0400

In article
<[email-masked]>,
Jeffrey Prothero <[email-masked]> writes:

>> : >I was thinking of starting with raiding the tapered wheel bearings
out
>of a

  Browning only list 3500 RPM for tapered roller bearings, however a one
inch bearing at 3500 RPM has should carry 721 lbs. for 1000000 hours so
with the light load you might get away with it if you use a oil bath to
remove the heat generated.

  They do rate the Masterline 200 and 300 series Ball Bearings at 7500
RPM. They show a load rating of 59 lbs. at 7500 RPM and  1000000 hours for
bearings under 3/4 inches. 

  NTN shows that a 6706 (30mm bore and 37mm O.D.) is the largest deep
groove ball bearing that can be run at 20,000 RPM when in a oil bath. Its
basic load rating is 460 lbs..

  They show that a 7906 (30mm bore and 46mm O.D.) can be run at 19,000 rpm
with 1610 lbs. basic load when in oil bath. This is a angular contact
bearing which is probably suitable for a tool post grinder.

 Using grease lowers the max speed of the above ball bearings and there
are several factors that need to be taken into account. I have not taken
the time to go through them all but the above bearing would probably work
for light use without any problem.

                                                     Hope this helps
                                                             LWC

---

From: [email-masked](Max ben-Aaron)
Date: 22 Sep 1996 15:42:35 GMT

High their:

Are'nt youall re-inventing the wheel?  Wasn't that the (low cost lathe
using available extrusions &c) idea behind the Taig lathe?

Mb-A

==============================================================

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (John

---

From: [email-masked] (John Dammeyer)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:56:45 GMT

>using available extrusions &c) idea behind the Taig lathe?

You mean the Taig will turn a 7" - at the widest part - casting and
cut threads?  

Obviously if available extrusions will make such a lathe inexpensive I
agree, lets use them.   And if you have an idea to use available
extrusions then post suppliers and dimensions of what would work at
the same time as the suggestion to to use extrusions.

John.

---

From: [email-masked] (Dick Morris)
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 05:50:22 GMT

For the past several years, when I return to the house from the shop,
I always pointedly count my fingers in front of my wife. If I come
back with the same number that I went down with, it was a successfull
night.

Dick Morris