Subject: Re: Horizontal Heaven

From: [email-masked] (Ken Toews)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 14:54:26 GMT

PaulS77 ([email-masked]) writes:

>>>>SNIP<<<<
>.... Indexing Center.   It got me wondering why horizontal mills have
seemingly
> been replaced by vertical spindle mills of the Bridgeport type?  Does
> anyone know when and why vertical milling became the norm?  Any comments
> on the relative merits of each?  
>>>>>>SNIP<<<<<

A horizontal machine is nice, in fact its the most cost effective way
to machine through slots, some gears, some broaches, some keyways and its nice
for a change, but in most shops they sit idle 95% of the time.

The verticle machines have a number of over riding advantages
-Cost, the horizontal machines are usually heavier duty, have
2 spindles, heavier power feed, are better built for heavy
cuts, some have tables that can be offset/rotated ect and are therefore more
expensive.
-Ergonomics, The spindle is right in front of you, you can see what you
are doing, on a horizontal machine you have the cutter behind
the table or you add an adapter to imitate a verticle machine.
-Type of work being done,
-Its difficult to cut a pocket, recess, or drill on a H machine,it
can be done, its just a little more awkward, and a little more
awkward make a big differnce in a machine shop.
-Drilling is probably a good a reason as any, its amazing
how much drilling takes place on your basic Bridgeport.
-Ergonomics, again, the basic Bridgeport is a nice machine to operate,
it fits. Most horizontal machines are heavier duty, more
awkward to operate, and without accesories are not as
versatile.
-Given the choice of putting a horizontal adapter on a Bridgeport
once every couple of months or rearranging a horizontal machine
every couple of days, for most work I would choose the Bridgeport
if I was paying the bills.

Some of the best made machines thought are horizontal, and your
right, they are nice to operate, especially if you have
to machine a Involute curve on a tapered shaft

Hope this helps.

--
Email From:        | 
Ken Toews          | 
Nepean Ontario     |    
Canada             | Apathy is the apex of normalcy.

---

From: [email-masked] (PaulS77)
Date: 6 Nov 1995 09:01:35 -0500

I recently purchased a book published in 1937 by the Brown & Sharpe Mfg.
Co. of Providence RI, entitled: "A Practical Treatise on Milling and
Milling Machines".  It's quite a fascinating look at the B&S Universal and
Plain Mills of the period.  These were horizontal arbor machines.  The
prowess of these mills at a multitude of toolroom operations is shown and
described in glorious detail.  Especially interesting is the section
devoted to milling spirals with the (standard equiptment) Universal Spiral
Indexing Center.   It got me wondering why horizontal mills have seemingly
been replaced by vertical spindle mills of the Bridgeport type?  Does
anyone know when and why vertical milling became the norm?  Any comments
on the relative merits of each?  

We feel quite lucky to have an old Burke horizontal mill in our shop.  It
is a small knee mill with a 16" table.  The spindle is driven by v- belts
on cone-pulleys with a total of six speeds available. It has a gear-head
motor hung off a massive cast iron stand.  The table is auto-feed, driven
by pulleys with a takeoff from the rear of the spindle.  A brass plaque on
the side proudly proclaims that it is equipped with Timken Roller
Bearings.  

The arbor is supported by an overarm with a bushed center that fits in the
arbor's end.  The arbor is 7/8" diameter, and we sure would like to find a
replacement (it's out 2-3 thou).  It is taper fitted into the spindle and
I'm not sure of the taper type or size.  Any info or leads on that would
be most welcome.  

I inherited this machine from my Dad, but I really  don't know much about
it's history.  Does anyone know the history of Burke mills? Are they still
around or are there any parts/attachments still available?  Are there any
other fans of the horizontal mills out there, or am I the only one in
horizontal heaven?

Paul Schiller
PDA Panache
Hand Crafted For The Digital Age

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From: [email-masked] (John Morton)
Date: 6 Nov 1995 20:52:04 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Ken Toews <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>It got me wondering why horizontal mills have
>>seemingly
>> been replaced by vertical spindle mills of the Bridgeport type?  
>

Yes, there is no doubt that the vertical has the edge.  Paul makes
several good points, but does not include an example of a type that
really makes a horizontal pay off.  Try this:  mill a 2" x 4" steel bar 
down to 2" x 3.5".  Even a small horizontal will do this in a couple
of cuts, 15 min. or so for a 24" long piece, plus some for setup
and cleanup.  Try that with your horizontal attachment!  BTW Ken's
machine is not in the range of what you (used to) see in machine
shops; the smallest are usually over 2000 lbs.

>to machine a Involute curve on a tapered shaft

They are definitely vastly better than verticals, with solid 
gearboxes, 3-axis feeds, sturdy construction.  However that "must
have" job usually never happens (e.g. the involute on a taper)
except in the manual :-).
>Hope this helps.

John Morton			     Mechanical Engineering Machine Shop
[email-masked]	     University of California at Berkeley

---

From: [email-masked] (J. Kimberlin)
Date: 6 Nov 1995 16:46:28 -0800

>on the relative merits of each?  

This is in the realm of the history of machine tools and an interesting 
question that I can not answer.  I like horizontal mills and 30 years ago 
had access to both horizontal and vertical Hardinge mills in the UCLA 
chemistry dept student shop where both were good for their specific tasks.

There are some things that a vertical mill just isn't good for such as 
making parallel cuts with 6" OD face cutters.  I have made a lot of T 
nuts this way by spacing 2 cutters on one mandrell and taking off 3/8 x 
1/2 metal in one pass.  Slot cutting is a lot easier using a side and 
face cutter too.

>the side proudly proclaims that it is equipped with Timken Roller

In similar manner was the Hardinge, which had a 24" x 6" table and also a 
brass plaque.

>I'm not sure of the taper type or size.  Any info or leads on that would

I have seen lots of Burke mills, but don't know the spindle taper.  I am 
sure it is either a #30 or #40.  A #50 exists but isn't likely on a Burke 
of your size.  These are standard sizes which Travers or MSC can supply.

Be sure to clean out the spindle taper bore.  Sometimes these get softer 
pieces of metal into them (brass or aluminum chips) that flatten out and 
appear to be part of the spindle itself.  That is, you can't see them 
once they get really thin.  Both Travers and MSC sell cleaning tools for 
#30, #40 and #50 tapers and if you change arbors often, dirt may be the 
culprit.  I assume that you grease or oil and adjust the spindle bearings 
occasionally.

The overarm outboard bearing can usually be replaced with a standard 
oilite bearing that can be had at your local bearing supply house.  Or, 
your local bearing supply house will have oilite bearing stock that you 
can use to make your own.

>other fans of the horizontal mills out there, or am I the only one in

Burke is no longer made IMHO, but this is the case for a lot of older 
mills.  The Los Angeles dealers used to have bits and pieces for them but 
recently one of the last of these, Teagarden, closed out at auction.  If 
Mark Rogo is listening maybe he can give some details.

I am a fan of horizontal mills and I have a Nichols.  It is 1 hp, 3P, 
220V, with a 6" X 24" table.  It has a lever action X and a handwheel Y.  
It also is a knee mill.  The Nichols difference was the rise and fall 
head and mine has hand lever actuation with about 4" movement.  This is 
the second Nichols I have had, the first having an 8" x 30" table.  Most 
Nichols are production mills with air or hydraullic feed.

I hate to change to Nichols from Burke, but while Nichols was still in 
production back in the early 1970's, I wrote to them.  Mr. Nichols was a 
Live Steamer and wrote back to me.  He also caused his secretary to send 
me a parts list and manual for my mill, which was quite nice of him.

>Hand Crafted For The Digital Age

JerryK

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From: [email-masked] (darylb)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 17:12:05 +0000

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Ken
Toews) wrote:

snip
> to machine a Involute curve on a tapered shaft

Hi Ken - good post! but...

1) what about verticle adaptors for horizontal mills. To my way of thinking
you'd get a mill built like a brick  you know what but with the versatility
of the verticle for everyday use. I haven't made my BIG mill purchase yet
and was just worried that Bridgeports might suffer (to a much lesser
degree) from the mill / drill syndrome (something I'm all too aware of).

2)Machine a Involute curve on a tapered shaft??!! I'm intrigued.

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From: [email-masked] (Richard W. Klopp)
Date: 6 Nov 1995 23:57:56 GMT

End mills for a vertical mill are *much* cheaper than arbor-mounted
cutters for a horizontal, like by an order of magnitude.

-- 
Rich Klopp
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Mark McDade x36841)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:32:18 GMT

. . .

: I am a fan of horizontal mills and I have a Nichols.  It is 1 hp, 3P, 
: 220V, with a 6" X 24" table.  It has a lever action X and a handwheel Y.  

. . .

I recently bought a 1953 Diamond with a 6x24 table.  It's powered by
a 1 hp motor with countershaft providing 9 speeds.  The rear of the
spindle powers a three speed table feed.  In addition to the horizontal
spindle, the machine has a vertical head using a small collet up to 1/2".
The horizontal spindle is B&S #9 and my reading suggests that lots of
the old machines used B&S tapers.  MSC still sells #9 collets (and #7,
I think).  Lindsay is selling a 1920's book (Cincinatti ???) which
would have competed with the B&S book mentioned.  I was amazed at the
completeness and engineering excellence displayed in the book.

One thing I've learned is to anchor the arbor support to the knee during
all but light cutting.  If you look at the old books, many of the pictures
show the "optional" arbor support braces in place - there's a reason for
that.  You can't have enough rigidity!  The old Diamond didn't come with
braces but I just grabbed a bar of 6061 and a pair of long woodworking
clamps and made a makeshift brace.  Tremendous reduction in chatter and
improvement in surface finish.

I'm in the Denver area and had an interesting regional experience related
to horizontal milling.  I bought a new 2" wide plain mill from Enco and
used it on cast iron.  The casting was hard in spots and abrasive as well,
leaving the cutter rough.  I drive to work past a cutter grinder so I
stopped last week and left the cutter with him.  He commented that if I
was in no hurry, he'd like to keep it a few weeks before working on it
because it would take him that long to accumulate enough similar work to
justify a setup.  The interesting part is that he came out here from
Ohio a few years back and said, "I don't know what it is with the West,
back East, I used to get thousands of these cutters - here, it's all
vertical stuff."

Mark McDade

[email-masked]