Subject: Miller Tig welders

From: Brian & Angie Vaughn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 02:39:33 -0500

I would like some opinions regarding the Econotig and the 250.  What I
have in mind is mostly sheet metal up to about 14 guage and on rare
occasions a repair where something just "broke off".  One example I can
give is welding new balls on the spindle arms of my Model A.  This is
about a 5/8 ball welded onto a 7/16 perch.  I have already paid to have
this done, but that is an example.  I guess what I am asking is if the
250 is worth the extra $1500 by the time you buy everything that comes
with the econotig.  If the capacity is large enough, I can wait on the
duty cycle.  Also, I might weld some AL or SS.  I have never used a TIG,
but many of my dreams require one.

Thanks

Brian

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From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Dec 1996 03:34:15 GMT

I have owned a Miller Synchrowave 300, a Lincoln 250 tig with all the bells and 
whistles, an old Gold Star (still have it) and currently use a Thermal Dynamics 
250GTS (?) inverter tig machine. Of all of those, The last is the best, primarily 
because of its low current control and adjustable cleaning (balance) on AC. Contrary 
to popular belief, bigger is not always better... the most difficult welding jobs 
are those that require close control and low current.

To answer your question, buy the best that you can afford, and look for good low 
current control. It will be hard to spend less than $2500 for this, even at an 
auction. (Was at an auction 4 days ago... a Miller Synchrowave 250 with a cooler 
went for $2300. New, they are about $2700! Can you believe it?  Remember, these are 
lifetime purchases... so buy the best you can.

Hope this is somewhat helpful...

Regards, Mark

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From: [email-masked] (Reckless)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 07:06:04 GMT

>Brian

I have a Lincoln Square-Wave 175 which I am happy with.  What capacity
is the "Econotig"?  I would have liked the 350 amp model, but I don't
have a big enough power panel and I didn't have that kind of money
(paid $1400US for the 175).  Sheet metal will be very easy to weld,
and with proper prep larger items like the spindle-arm balls would be
possible with the 175.

Working with the TIG is a lot like gas welding, but with much finer
control.  My gas welds were functional, but rarely pretty.  My TIG
welds are full penetration and nice looking.  Aluminum welds nicely,
but it is a slightly different critter than welding steel.  I got good
aluminum welds after a couple hours of practice, a great welds in
steel the first try.  Haven't tried SS but I'm told it welds just like
regular steel.  (When welding some 5/16" thick aluminum pipe I got
75-100% penetration at full power, but I tripped the 60A subpanel feed
a few times and put the welder in overheat a couple of times as well,
but the unit is not rated for 100% duty cycle at 175 amps.)

My opinion: if the econotig is 175 amps or more, go for it, otherwise
you may want the 250 if you plan to do heavy work often.

-Reckless

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From: [email-masked] (Garfield)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:27:56 GMT

On Sat, 14 Dec 1996 07:06:04 GMT, [email-masked]
(Reckless) wrote:

>>have in mind is mostly sheet metal up to about 14 guage.....

<Reckless replies>
>(paid $1400US for the 175).  Sheet metal will be very easy to weld,....

Hey Brian. Hey Reck.

I too bought the Lincoln Square-Wave after researching both; there are
two reasons, Brian, why you might want to consider the SQ175:

1.	The Econotig has two ranges of heat, and the foot pedal does not
continuously vary over that range, like the SQ does. On the EcTig the
pedal is just on & off; the power within the range is knob-set. On the
SQ, whatever MAX power you dial in, then the foot control is a
proportional controller over that range...lots more control, and
especially on the fly. One more thing, the lowest amp on the SQ is much
lower than the EcTig: min = 12A on SQ vrs. min = 20A on the EcTig.
THIS can be very important for thin SHEET METAL work. You can set max at
say 25A, start at 25A and immediately pedal down to say 18A. Nice.

2.	The SQ uses High Frequency arc stabilization, and so is considered
by pretty much any welder a better choice for aluminum work, especially
along with the continuous heat control you get along with. Really helps
with thermally high-conductive material like Alum. to be able to
gradually drop the heat input during the weld, as the assembly warms up.

The EconoTigs ARE good units, and widely used; it appears the Lincoln is
just a next generation product that for the moment has it over the
Miller by a tad.

Garfield

P.S. Nope, no connection to nothin; don't even own stock in Lincoln. 8)

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From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:00:39 GMT

Brian & Angie Vaughn <[email-masked]> wrote:

>One example I can
>this done, but that is an example.  

It pays big dividends to be really fussy about some things,
weld repairs on Model A steering gear is one of them.

I had a very freightening experience with an improperly
welded ball/stud on the end of the pitman arm on my model A.
Unknown to me when I aquired the car, somebody had welded a
new ball on the end of the pitman arm.  The ball came on a
stud, and the pitman arm had been machined out to fit the
stud, and then the stud welded in place.  It is a common
thing to do to recondition them.  

In this case however, it was a cold weld and the whole
ball/stud assembly came out looking almost like new and left
me rolling down the road at 45 mph with exactly no physical
connection between the rotation of the steering wheel about
the steering shaft centerline and the angular orientation of
the front wheels!  

It turned out OK, no one hurt, nothing bent, and myself
knowing my heart was good for significantly more than the
medically advertised "maximum" rate.

When I had it repaired, I ground off the excess weld and
prepared the joint.  My amature research into the "right
way" to weld that joint suggested I had neither the
equipment or the skill to do it properly.  I had it welded
by a certified professional welder.  He preheated it because
it is a severly constrained joint, TIG welded it top and
bottom, stress relieved it after he was done, and then after
cleaning it up used liquid penetrant to be sure there was no
cracking.  Belt and suspenders maybe, but I had no more
problems.  

Fitch

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From: Brian & Angie Vaughn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 03:34:54 -0500

> P.S. Nope, no connection to nothin; don't even own stock in Lincoln. 8)
What is the price difference in the EconoTig and the sq-175.  The
EconoTig runs about 1300 dollars in the catalogs and might could be
bought for 1200-1250.  Most welding supply houses in the Atlanta area
tend to deal mostly with Miller and that is what I see the most of.

Thanks

Brian

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From: Brian & Angie Vaughn <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 03:42:19 -0500

> I had a very freightening experience with ...
> 

> cracking.  Belt and suspenders maybe, but I had no more

You are correct that the ball comes with a stud as one piece.  I drilled
the hole for the new ball and put a chamfer on both sides for the guy to
get a good weld.  How he finished it from there I don't know and am not
really concerned.  The guy retired as a welder for Delta Air Lines and
probably knows every problem that could arise from different situations
and did what was needed.  He has done quite a bit of welding for me in
the past and not one problem has risen.  I realize that my description
of the ball and stud in the earlier post wasn't correct as to the exact
repair.  All that I was trying to do was illustrate the size or the
thickness of the material so people could judge if the EconoTig had the
power to do that kind of repair.

I do hope that when the car is finished my Sunday happy go lucky
afternoon sprints are more in the line of what would be considered
"normal".  But the brakes will be rebuilt to as good as or better than
when the car rolled off the assembly line the first time.  I have an
uncle that is somewhat of a packrat and his favorite saying is "Never
know, might need them sometime!" 

I had to snip a lot of Fitch's story because I got an error saying I had
to have more typed in my mesage that the original.  Sorry if this takes
this out of context.

Brian

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From: [email-masked] (Ernie Leimkuhler)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:03:41 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>,
[email-masked] (Garfield) wrote:

> pedal is just on & off; the power within the range is knob-set. 

Okay this part is dead wrong, but the rest is correct.

>On the
snip
> just a next generation product that for the moment has it over the

I've had my Econotig for almost 3 years, and although it has done stalwart
service, I will be the first to sing its praises and lament it's
shortcomings.
The main problem with the Econotig is that the pedal is always covering
the entire power range ( 0 - 170 amps high, and 0 - 120 amps low ).
This makes fine control a matter of extended practice and steady nerves.
The other thing that bugs me is that it only has a High and Low in AC,
which is fine for Aluminum, but when welding thin steel or bandsaw blades
it makes the pedal a very touchy affair.
I recently got a big herkin' choke coil to run in line with the ground,
and that that works to neck down the power, but once again it only works
on AC.
I have found that by running the smallest tungsten available ( 1/32" ), I
was able to get slightly better control on really thin steel,  but the
those tiny tungstens fry really fast.
The lack of a true high frequency isn't actually that bad if you run a
Helium/ Argon mix.
For the money NOW I would probably look at the Lincoln, but 3 years ago
there was no other option for a small portable TIG.

My advice is always to test drive any machine before buying.
In spite of whether or not the Lincoln has more bells and whistles, if it
isn't nice to use, who needs it.
Even though I have recently purchased a BIG TIG, I will keep my Econotig
for its portability.
The portability is very important for the movie work I do in Seattle.
It is really nice to have a TIG that I can roll up a ramp into my toyota
pickup, by myself.

-- 
Best of luck

*********************************************************************
                            Ernie Leimkuhler
                   STAGESMITH PRODUCTIONS
                     Custom Metal Fabrication
       ABANA       AWS        SCA        IATSE Local 15/488
                        Renton, Washington, USA
*********************************************************************
" 'Reverse primary thrust, Marvin,' that's what they say to me, 'open airlock number three, Marvin. Marvin, can you pick up that piece of paper?' Can I pick up that piece of paper! Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to ...." - Douglas_Adams

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From: [email-masked] (Reckless)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 06:48:16 GMT

>weld repairs on Model A steering gear is one of them.

I agree entirely that steering/braking components of cars are
definitely not for the inexperienced, or even for the experienced
without the right tools.

-Reckless
Waiting till I learn enough to make new spindle arms for my '63 Chevy
(it has '69 spindles/arms and the arms hang to low making for major
bumpsteer).

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 17:34:52 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R.

>cracking.  Belt and suspenders maybe, but I had no more

Unless they were a competent and certified welder I cannot imagine why
anyone would attempt anything like steering gear on a car. Weld anything
you like pretty much anywhere you like on the car but steering gear, pay
the money or pay the price.

Peter
Who once had a tow hitch he had welded tear off and the boat, trailer and
hitch went past at about 40mph. Came to rest without damage to life limb
or happiness but provided a valuable lesson in life.

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From: Brian & Angie Vaughn <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 01:11:39 -0500

> the money or pay the price.

The only repair for the Model A steering gear is to weld a new ball
assembly onto the arms as nobody is building them anymore.  You must
keep in mind that the car is only going to go a max of 60MPH downhill
with a tail wind and that nobody in his right mind is going to take his
newly restored Ford across the field as Henry had envisioned. Also this
story is probably an isolated case as I have never heard of anybody
haveing any problems before.

Brian

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From: [email-masked] (Garfield)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 22:26:11 GMT

On Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:03:41 -0700, [email-masked] (Ernie

>Okay this part is dead wrong, but the rest is correct.

Hey Ernie.

Dang, I hate it when you're right!! 8)  I goofed. Synapses totally
misfired. The problem is NOT that the pedal doesn't control, it's that
it always covers the WHOLE range, and is NOT limited by the power knob
setting, like the SQ is. And Ernie, that is what you mention as well,
where below you talk about difficulty in precise control of the heat on
thin stuff.

Ahh, I just shoulda let you answer the question. I forgot you had an
EconoTig.

Cheers,
Garfield