Subject: Re: Band Saw Advice Wanted

From: ANDY POPKY <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 15:14:16 -0500

mark

you can probably get away with a wood saw
you may end up changing pulleys
to slow down your speed
if you are cutting steel you will 
most likely have to slow it down

regards
andy popky

---

From: [email-masked] (JD)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 96 15:00:38 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
   [email-masked] (Mark Watzl) wrote:
>I'm in the market for a new band saw and am unsure exactly what I need.
>I plan to use it to cut 1/4" angle and round mild steel and occasionally 
>alum.
>I've talked with a slew of salesman at local stores but I don't have any 
>confidence in what they say. They all recomended a band saw that was 
>designed for wood but has the ability to cut metal. I only plan to use it 
>for metal. This is a hobby for me so I don't need an industrial quality 
>saw nor could I afford one. I'm hoping to spend less than $450. 
>Any input would be greatly appreciated.
>
>e-mail @ [email-masked] or post here.
>
>thank you
>
>Mark
>

If your only cutting small stuff like that, the harbor freight special
would work fine. I think the regular price is about $200, but at their
parking lot sales they have piles of them with tweaked legs for $50.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 8 Dec 1996 17:10:17 GMT

>Any input would be greatly appreciated.

<< for metal. This is a hobby for me so I don't need an industrial quality

The 4-1/2 x 6 advertised by Enco, Grizzly, Harbour Freight and many others
for around $200 is more than adequate. I have found this little saw to be
the best single item I have ever bought. I used to dread hacksawing lumps
of steel before turning or milling them. Now I just clamp it in the saw
and walk away. Go back when I hear it go "clump" and the saw turns off.

These saws can be tipped up for vertical use too which is excellent for
cutting plate and sheet.

Peter
Who treats everyone the same! ;)> Providing I snuck through your Killfile
Mark.

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 20:25:34 -0700

[email-masked] wrote:
.....
I have found this little saw to be
> the best single item I have ever bought.

I think the second best is the 4x36x6 belt/disk sander...

-- 
Paul in AJ AZ  NRA Endowment Member

Checkout the Metal Web News at:
new address (11/23/96)

http://www.ten.k12.tn.us/~wgray

Checkout the FAQ at:
http://PLAINS.UWYO.EDU/%7Emetal/index.html

---

From: Tom Krause <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 23:27:41 -0600

> Who treats everyone the same! ;)> Providing I snuck through your Killfile

 I also own one of these saws (Harbor frieght version)
needed a few minor tweaks at first,but has performed admirably
for 6-8 years with no problems.
 2 notes:
  the o.e. legs are a piece of crap,but I haven't gotten around to
replacing them so far,must not be too bad.
  stay away from the el-cheapo blades from HF,go spend the money on 
some bi-metal blades,I believe mine are Lennox,they last forever.
Tom

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:15:59 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Tom Krause
<[email-masked]> writes:

>T

Yeah, I intended to replace the legs on mine too. They still look like
crap,  they still jiggle and bend, they are still there, hell they can
stay.

As to blades, absolutely correct. The MSC flier for December has Starret
Flex-back blades for $7.91 welded and ready to rock and roll. Stock up on
these as the last bimetal I bought I paid about $15.00 for. Just goes to
show I should have checked with MSC first as their normal prices are way
better than Enco's in this case.

Peter

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 9 Dec 1996 21:15:56 GMT

>I think the second best is the 4x36x6 belt/disk sander...

My third choice is the bead blast cabinet. It strips paint and rust, it
adds a uniform finish to unbelievable inconsistant surfaces. Harbor Fright
for a $100 +  media + a shop vac + a bigger compressor. Best $100 I ever
spent. <g>

Seriously though, I can't imagine having a shop without a blast cabinet
now.

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (Felice Luftschein & Nicholas Carter)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:52:24 GMT

>and walk away. Go back when I hear it go "clump" and the saw turns off.

Just to make it clear, never leave the room when it is running, one time the 
blade bound while cutting multiple pieces and the belt slipping filled the 
whole room up with rubber smoke, quite a surprise to come to after a coffee
break. The saw was fine afterwards though.... (it's a jet by the way)

---

From: [email-masked] (Mark Watzl)
Date: 7 Dec 1996 16:13:06 GMT

thank you

Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 06:28:37 GMT

<SNIPED lots of stuff for bandwidth reasons>
>Hey Guys,
>	I bought about a half dozen of the enco bimetal blades and
>while they stayed sharp and cut great at the high speed pulley setting,
>they all broke prematurely due to fatigue.  I mean they formed cracks
>all around the blade simultaniously, not just in one place.  The small
>cut off saws flex the heck out of the blades due to the small wheel 
>radius and twisting of the blade by the guides.  I've just used the cheap 
>ones ever since.  Maybe I'll give the MSC blades a shot.
>Clint

Ok.  How fast should one run the bimetal blades anyway?  I
run my saw dry to reduce the mess of coolent dripping off
the ends of the metal all over the garage floor or driveway.

I thought I was making the blades last longer by running it
slow.  it is that using the bimetal blades I should be
running it on possibly its highest speed?  I lose Starrett
bimetal blades at the rate of one every couple owf weeks
when diong heavy cutting - they end up with no teeth on them
at all, look  just like the strapping used for shipping
things.  (At that point, being totally frivolous with my
money, I throw the danged useless bimetal thing away and
don't bother to file new teeth on it in a burst  of
misguided thrift <G>).

I presume those running the small saws are running them dry
also - the one I used to have had no coolent system.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Randolph Lee)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:13:42 -0400

>also - the one I used to have had no coolent system.

Fitch,

I use the trico Microdrop system to lube all my cutting on the shaper, the
bridgeport mill, the lathes the cheap bandsaw, the drill press and the
grinder and linnsher... I have two of the 2 line Air power units and I move
than arround as needed... the 2 needed hanging screws for the units are
placed as needed they work wonderfuly no mess no fuss... on some machines I
use just one of the lockline nozzels... (the shaper and for most stuff on
the lathe (cutoof I use both lines) for example) on the saw I use both
lines on eithe side of the blade just before it enters the cut... I cut
some 4 3/8  X 2 1/2 Hot rolled on it and bunch of 1 1/2" O1  yesterday and
it was no muss no fuss.

and I also dumped the blade that came with the saw and use Starett Bymetal
Powerband Matrix II 1/2 X .025 10-14/S VP blades fro 90% of my metal
cutting. (about $19 from MSC pre made) I got about 6 months of regular use
(20+ cuts a week  of greater than 1 sq inch X section in steel) out of my
first blade... I  tend to use too little down force for a given  cut and
hence shorten blade life as I like the  surface finish result better... I
run the  blade tension as high as I can crank the adjusting knob with a 6"
long tommy bar. failure on the first blade was fatgue cracking of the
backing steel of the blade.

my  problem yesterday wass cutting  2 1/2 X 3/8 thick flat plate into small
chunks (1/4 wide) ... the cut finishes the blade drops bdown and out a bit
and unless I am right there to to stop it keeps cutting into the cut off
part hanging by the wire edge of the stock (teh cut off part is not heavy
enough to pull free)... dosent drop quite far enough on these light cuts
(at a very light down force tension) to cut all the way through and hit the
off switch. if I up the tension on the down force, that fixes it but then
the surface finish is not good enough to use right off the saw (as it was
with the light down force) 

Before I had the saw I kept many more diferent sizes of stock in the racks
as I hate using a hacksaw (for the above parts I would have bought in some
3/8 by 1/4 stock and cut to length for example)  now I can just cut what I
need out of larger sections... If I need a base plate for something  thats
5/8 thick I just grab a chunk of heavy section stock  Say 6 by 8" and slice
it off... toss it on the shaper to flatten it ( the saw cuts to about .005
to 007 squairness in this sort of heavy cut after my fettling)  and I am
off and running ... no waiting a week to get stuff from the Metals Web
site... should have bought one yeras ago...and another job where it shone
was in cutting off the chunks for the blanks for all all the ball handels
on the Quorn... 

a few hours of fettling to turn the sows ear (as it was when it was
unpacked) kit of parts from Harbor freight into a useful tool, perhaps not
the silk purse of a Wilton but useful for my needs.

~R

Randolph Lee
Windshadow Engineering

---

From: Gabriel L Romeu <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:28:44 -0500

> I throw the danged useless bimetal thing away and
sounds like youve worn them to nothing, ive taken those blades, cut them
into foot long pieces, wired a stack together and use them as a rasp
for  scatch finishing on my lathe, work pretty well.

> also - the one I used to have had no coolent system.
small spray bottle which i occasionaly (at least twice a cut)spray the
piece, guides etc with wd40- just small amount, cutting aluminum
exclusively,

-- 
----------- gabriel -------------
- http://users.aol.com/romeug   -the furniture
- http://users.aol.com/romeugp  -the photographs
---- mailto:[email-masked] ----

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Dec 1996 03:18:38 GMT

We have a medium sized Ellis band saw which is normally dry. Previous to that, we 
had a Wellsaw which had coolant. I have never really seen much difference in blade 
life. The blades usually fail because of mis-use long before they wear out.

In commercial use (automatic bandsaws cutting the same shape during the life of the 
blade) coolant may have a greater effect on life.

Both Lennox and Nichols have excellent books (free) on bandsaw blades and their 
application.

Proper tension (not usually achievable with cheap saws) is very important to proper 
cutting and life. I bought a tension meter years ago, & it was worth the expense.

Hope this is useful.

Regards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 14 Dec 1996 07:49:39 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R.

>also - the one I used to have had no coolent system.

  That doesn't sound right. We don't use the bimetal blades at the shop
due to there expense. We use a very old Wells band saw that doesn't have
provisions for coolant so we run it dry. It has three speeds but all of
them are fairly slow. I don't know exactly how many feet per minute it
runs but we use the slow speed on stainless and the medium speed for most
cutting. The high speed is just used on brass or aluminum and somtimes
cast iron. We can get as much as two months or more out of a blade if we
aren't using it very heavy. But even if we run it all day for two or three
days in a row the blade will get to be fairly slow cutting but it never
gets that smooth. The main thing that will cause us to change a blade is
if it gets all the set rubbed off one side and thus cuts at a bad angle.
The only other reason we will change is if we have to cut a lot of stuff
and want it to cut as fast as it can. I don't know what could be causing
the teeth to be ripped off like that unless there is to much pressure on
the blade. We really don't have that much pressure on our blades so it can
take a fair little while to cut through somthing very thick. I would guess
that it generally take about 30 min to cut a piece of 4 or 5 inch
shafting. It of course depends a lot on just how sharp the blade is but
that would be a good average. I believe that I spent about an hour cutting
through a piece of cast iron the other day that was about 8" in dia. And
that was with a fairly new blade. I have seen a blade that wouldn't even
start to cut nylatron or even brass that would cut through 4140 fairly
well. One thing that is suprising is that a dull blade will cut a good
fairly hard steel like 4140 faster than it will cut cold rolled. By the
same token it takes a really sharp blade to cut nylatron. You can cut
brass with a blade that won't even touch that stuff. It sounds to me that
you should be getting more life out of you're blades based on my
experience. Just don't ask me what the difference is.

   Wayne Cook

Quality is like buying oats,
        if you want nice, clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price.

However, 
        if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through
the horse...
                          
That comes a little cheaper...

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:43:49 -0700

> the ends of the metal all over the garage floor or driveway.

I bought a cookie pan (with edges turned up), 11x17, from Wal-mart
and put it crosswise on the tray.  Made a couple little Z-brackets
to keep it from tipping but allow easy removal.  Catches a lot of
sawdust, etc.  Like you, I don't use coolant altho' occasionally oil.

I had a couple of blades that were full of small cracks.  Bought some
Delta
blades at Home Depot.  NO better than Enco.  This last Enco has lasted
real
well.  I would sort of think my adjustments aren't 100%.

Checkout the FAQ at:

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:08:21 GMT

please excuse my not useing quotes in my posts as soon as i figure it out
i will start useing them. i have found that the anti-splatter spray for my
 mig welder makes a great coolent and lub for cuting both stainless and
aluminium on my band saw .i thought if it kees things from sticking to the
contact tip then it should do the same for saw blades.  jamie

jcranegt90

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 14 Dec 1996 14:08:50 GMT

>also - the one I used to have had no coolent system.

For aluminum and the like I run dry but for steel I use a spray can of
Accu-Lube SL-6 that has a little one-shot squirt nozzle. One shot on each
side of the blade, it's expensive but last for about a year or more. If
the cut is gonna take a while, ten minutes or more I will go back about
every 5 or 6 minutes and give it another shot.

Can't recall where I go it from but I do remember it was not cheap, bout
$15 for the 10oz can.

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (Doug White)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 96 15:15:58 GMT

Keywords: 
>Can't recall where I go it from but I do remember it was not cheap, bout

For those who don't have a compressor or don't want the mess of a fluid 
coolant system, there are a number of 'stick' lubes on the market.  These 
are basically large (1 1/2"D) tubes of a waxy material that will melt 
against a running blade.  For a really long job, you may have to apply 
some a couple of times, but it's low on mess, low on hardware, and cuts 
much better than dry.  A little goes a long way.  If you use too much, 
you'll end up with blobs of chip-loaded wax splattered around, but no 
oily puddles, calls from the EPA etc.

Doug White

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:05:27 GMT

[email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams) wrote:
>Mark Winlund <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
>I learn something new every day.  Bandsaw blade application,
>tension, speed, etc.  sounds like a good place for me to do
>some personal research. 
>
>Do you have an address for the publications you mention?

Try your local welding supplier. They will get it for you.

>
>I've not seen one of these tension meters.   Sounds like a
>good thing to have around.  Does it work based on some sort
>of calibrated & measured force to
>"bend-slightly-in-the-middle-between-two-points" principle?
>
>I'm asking because maybe I can make something like that - a
>screw that pushes against a spring to slightly deform the
>blade between two fixed points, with a measurement of spring
>deflection as the indicator of tension.  It could be
>go-nogo, I wouldn't need more than single point calibration,
>I only use one width and thickness of blade on the metal
>saw.

Surprisingly enough, it measures the actual stretch of the blade. It is a simple 
device, with a dial indicator and two clamps about an inch apart. The other 
surprising fact is that the same meter will read all sizes of blade. Under proper 
tension, they will all stretch the same amount. This is according to the Lennox 
salesman, (and the gauge inst

>To "calibrate it":  My Delta woodworking bandsaw has a
>window, a spring, and an indicating washer for setting the
>blade tension, and can use 1/2" blades like my Johnson
>horizontal metal saw.  I could set a 1/2"  blade up properly
>tensioned on my Delta wood working bandsaw and calibrate the
>home made tension meter device for half inch X .025"(?)
>blades, the only ones that are usable on my Johnson saw.
>
>My Johnson saw can put a *lot* of tension on a blade.  It
>has a sizable "T" handle on a 3/8-16 threaded rod pushing
>against a sliding casting.  I wonder if I may have been less
>than properly assertive when adjusting the blade tension.
>
>Lets see:
>
>.025" thick X .45" from root of tooth to back = .0113 square
>inches of blade cross section at minimum point.  I'd guess
>it is reasonably tough steel in tension, maybe 27ksi yield
>at .1% /1000 hr creep.  This suggests I'd need about 305 lbs
>per side or 610 lbs total jacking force on the screw.  The
>screw is 3/8 - 16 NC.  It would advance .0625" for every
>3.14" around a 1" dia circle for a multiplication of ~50
>pounds axial thrust per 1 inch-lb of torque at 100%
>efficiency.  I could use 90% assuming it is clean and well
>lubricated.  That suggests I need 610/(.9 X 50) = 13.5
>in-lbs of torque to get the proper blade tension if I have
>made the right assumptions.  Thats not to much twist.  After
>calculating it I went down and played with the in-lb torque
>wrench.  That is practically no torque at all.  
>
>I must be doing something wrong, I usually put more torque
>than that on the blade.  I am probably not using a high
>enough tensile strength rating for the blade metal.
>
>If these assumptions are correct, I shouldn't get into a
>"contest of wills" with the tightening handle.
>
>I will hunt around on the Web and see if Starrett has
>anything on how to use their blades.
>
>Fitch
>
>
>
>
>

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:00:33 GMT

Lets see:

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:19:34 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

<sniped good stuff>

>It sounds to me that

I think I should too, and I'm 99.999% sure the reason is
that I am doing something wrong with how I use them.  So I
am going to look into it.  

The Johnson saw has a hydraulic cylinder to adjust the
pressure on the blade.  Normally I have it set to move very
slowely.  Based on your suggestion, and the times you gave,
I will experiment with it a bit to see what the feed
pressure might be.

There is also a sliding weight I found on the saw after
reading your post which was set about half way out along its
travel.  I may move it back to lessen the pressure and see
if that makes a difference also.  It seems to me it should
be a better pressure control than the hydraulic thing.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Mike Norton)
Date: 15 Dec 1996 03:03:53 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>piece, guides etc with wd40- just small amount, cutting aluminum

I use a little cutting oil (sulphurated) in an oil can when cutting steel.  
It's a little messy, but the blades last a long time.

  - Mike Norton

---

From: [email-masked] (Scott Logan)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 13:10:11 GMT

On Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:00:33 GMT, [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)

Fitch,

Though I don't have one, I understand these "tension meters" are
basically an electronic caliper which clamps to the blade when it is
loose.  As the blade is tensioned, the gage measures the "stretch" of
the blade.

  +----------------------------------+
  | Scott Logan  -  [email-masked] |
  |        Logan Actuator Co.        |
  |     http://www.loganact.com      |
  |    Repair Parts & Accessories    |
  |    for Logan and Wards Lathes    |
  +----------------------------------+

FAQ - http://plains.uwyo.edu/%7Emetal/index.html
Metal Web News - http://www.ten.k12.tn.us/~wgray

        "Measure Twice, Cut Once"

---

From: [email-masked] ("Richard Sewell")
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 15:21:03 GMT

> I lose Starrett
>at all,

Mine seems to lose teeth mosty easily when cutting box section - it's 
happy doing the horizontal parts, where there's lots of steel, but on the 
thin verticals it mustn't be allowed too much cutting pressure or the 
teeth break off. 

What sort of sections are you cutting ?

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 17:34:56 GMT

>>anything on how to use their blades.

MSC has the Starret blade tensioner on special in their December flyer.
Can't recall how much as I have tossed it.

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 17:06:46 GMT

>salesman, (and the gauge inst

Do you know how much stretch that is in thousandts of an
inch?  I would think I could build something like that.  I
have a bunch of dial indicators.  Is there something trickey
about it?

Fitch

---

From: Joseph Baccellieri <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 13:33:13 -0800

> Can't recall how much as I have tossed it.

MSC has a Starrett "Saw Tension Gage" on sale for $249.55.
As Peter said it is in the December sale flyer.

Joe.

---

From: [email-masked] (Randolph Lee)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 14:18:11 -0400

>loose.  As the blade is tensioned, the gage measures the "stretch" of

Perhaps you could scratch t fine lines an aprox inch apart then use a mike
and a loupe to measure the true at rest distance... then tension the blade
and measure it again... done at say 1/4 turn of the adjusting screw points
you would generate a table of elongation... a bit of work withthe old
spread sheet and you would be set...

Might be worth a try... perhaps some one with one of the $280 Starrett
Gauges could provide calibration info? I note that that unit has a range of
0 to 60,000 psi... I doubt that that much range is needed on the cheap
import saws... one reasion I went with the Powerband Matrix II 10 14S VPis
that Starrett told me that I would be unlkly to be able to over tension it
on one of these... also it is better able to take the twists this short
blade machine imposes and so I x drilled the adjuster for a 12" long bar
and withthe 6" extention it provides I sock it up as tight as I can...
working fine so far... but I would love to know how Tight I realy have it
and how much dammage it is dooing to bearings having it that tight if I
don't need it so high.

Randolph Lee
Windshadow Engineering

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 01:17:31 GMT

>Can't recall how much as I have tossed it.

MSC sale price is $249.55

Ron Norris

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:44:59 GMT

>Ron Norris

Well, I can probably make one for no more than twice that.  
<G>

Fitch

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:50:46 GMT

Sorry, gentlemen... our power failed last night right as I was typing that message. 
I could hear the fuses explode on the pole a block away! Anyway, as I was saying, it 
seems strange that the meter works for all sizes of blades, but that is what the 
instructions say.  The gauge is calibrated in thousandths. One tensions the blade to 
030. I am not sure if that is the true distance though... it works on a lever 
action. I paid about $200 for mine but that was a number of years ago. It is a very 
useful thing to have.

The thing to remember about blade tension is that the *distance* the blade stretches 
per inch will be the same for all blades. The *tension* required to produce this 
change will vary according to the blade thickness and width. This is why the saws 
with 1" blades have such beefy wheels and bearings.

I hope this sheds some light on this subject.

Regards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 18:31:26 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R.

>Well, I can probably make one for no more than twice that.  

Shouldn't be too hard I would think. Use a toolmaker's clamp to hold a
block on the blade that in turn holds a dial indicator. Us another
toolmakers clamp an inch or two up the blade for the end of the dial
indicator to work on.

Calibrating the thing would be the next trick. If, as we are told the
blade stretch is the same for all blades then you would just need to
borrow one to compare the readings with both your make-up and the real
thing mounted on the blade at the same time. Or some nice person with the
real thing, could make the above suggested item and tell us what the dial
indicator indicated when it was correctly tensioned.

Peter

---

From: "Les Whitaker" <[email-masked]>
Date: 15 Dec 1996 20:04:02 GMT

Joseph Baccellieri <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
> > My, I AM gettin' old... only $249.95, and all those years I spent
"plunking" the blade with my thumb, like tuning a guitar... aint modern
science wunnerful?
Les "tensionally challenged" Whitaker