Subject: Pride in American machines?

From: [email-masked] (The Hurdy Gurdy Man)
Date: 5 Dec 1996 06:46:28 GMT

I just wanted to run this by you folks, see what you thought.

I recently decided to purchase a Sherline lathe, but in the search for what
I wanted to finally buy I went to a local machine dealer to ask a few
questions on the subject of small lathes.  The one he pointed me towards
was the Emco-Meier Compact 5, which admittedly seemed like a nice enough
lathe (although, I'd like to hear some opinions about it, if anyone
would care to post them).  The comment the man at the shop made to conclude
his little sales pitch was something to the effect of:

"It's much better than that Sherline lathe because it's made in Austria."

Now, to me, being still somewhat proud of American and lots of American 
workmanship, not to mention never having heard a bad thing about Sherline,
this statement bothered me.  In my head it translated to:

"Let's face it, American equipment sucks, no matter how many good stories
you've heard about it.  You're better off paying three times as much for
an imported model."

I'm sure the Austrians make a good machine, but still, this statement
bothered me.  What I'm wondering is, have other people out there
encountered lots of problems with American-made equipment?  Is my 
general pride and trust in USA-made stuff just a naive mistake?

								Bryan

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Bryan Kolodziej                 University of California, San Diego
Visual Arts/Computer Media      http://sgva-serv1.ucsd.edu/~bkolodzi

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From: Don Stauffer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 08:12:12 -0600

> Visual Arts/Computer Media      http://sgva-serv1.ucsd.edu/~bkolodzi

Bryan, when I got my Sherline, I actually felt very proud to see that Americans CAN 
produce quality products.  Compared to some other junk I have seen, the Sherline is 
topnotch.  I assume new labor saving technologies like CNC may let American manufacturers 
compete again.  However they do it, Sherline is top quality in my opinion.
-- 
Don Stauffer in Minneapolis (A satisfied Sherline owner)

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From: Roger M Weppelman <[email-masked]>
Date: 5 Dec 1996 17:28:41 GMT

[email-masked] (The Hurdy Gurdy Man) wrote:
>  The one he pointed me towards
>would care to post them). 

I have the Compact 5 and also the C 5 Unimill, which is the companion mill. Within 
their size limitations they are decent machines. They are somewhat larger than the 
Sherline machines, have steel rather than aluminium ways, and are about twice as 
heavy. The also cost about twice as much so the extra mass and capacity come at a 
price. If you want more info on the EM/Sherline comparison, I suggest a catalog from 
Blue Ridge which carries both lines. None the less, my personal recommendation 
remains the "third alternative": get a second hand 10-12 inch Logan/SB/Atlas which 
will enable you to tackle a far broader range of projects. 

And by the way, I would not take the "Made in Austria" line too seriously. The base 
of my Unimill is from Spain and I would not want to bet that all the parts of the 
Compact 5 are from Austria (or even from Europe for that matter). 

Roger Weppelman

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From: [email-masked] (Stan Malyshev)
Date: 7 Dec 1996 03:09:55 -0800

In article <[email-masked]>,
 <[email-masked]> wrote:
[]
>
>Think of the unique design of the "Harley Davidson" no matter how
>much our Japanese friends doctor with their Honda, no motor bike
>will ever feel like "Harley Davidson, unless they copy the original
>engineering design nut by nut and bolt by bolt. 

Which should not be too difficult, given the Hardleys' propensity for
spontaneous self-disassembly.

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From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 6 Dec 1996 13:55:59 GMT

Saying that something is automatically "good" because it's made
in country X and something is automatically "bad" because it's
made in country Y is pretty silly.  Some places may IN GENERAL
produce better- or lesser-quality equipment, but one really has
to look at each individual case.

I think USA tools are still pretty good.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 6 Dec 1996 01:16:24 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (The

>general pride and trust in USA-made stuff just a naive mistake?

I think your pride and trust is well founded but as with all things one
must be selective as to what is deserving of that trust. The US can make
junky stuff equally as junky as the best in the world. It can also make
excellent quality stuff and often (but not always) at a competitive price.

I have been amazed at what I can do with the Sherline mill. I bought it
because I needed to make parts to meet a deadline. I had my doubts because
it was mostly made of aluminum. All doubts have now been dispelled. While
I have no experience with their lathe, I have no reason to believe it
would be any different.

To compare the Compact 5 with the Sherline is not exactly apples and
apples though. There is a degree of justification in price but probably
not to the extent that you are expected to pay for the Emco. Having said
that though, if the Sherline will do what you need now and into the short
but forseable future then it would be more than adequate.

You need only watch this NG for about three weeks and it becomes very
clear that *every-one* needs to move to a bigger or better 'thing'. My
suggestion is buy the best quality you can that will do the job. That, in
this case, IMHO would be the Sherline. Personal experience will show that
you will ***neeed*** a 12x36 in about three months time. Put the money you
saved with the Sherline into the bigger mouse-trap. Metalworking is a
curse, I am sure there is good cause for a MA (Metalworkers Annonymous)
association.

A question to ask the 'wise' machinery dealer is "do you sell Sherlines?"
If the answer comes back "no" then there in itself is a good reason he
would encourage you to buy something he does sell.

Peter

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 8 Dec 1996 16:25:02 GMT

Stan:

Perhaps I am missing something very vital here,
but hwat is it you are actually saying ?

Alberto

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 8 Dec 1996 17:10:25 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Stan Malyshev)

>>engineering design nut by nut and bolt by bolt. 
"no motor bike will ever feel like "Harley Davidson"

That is indeed a blessing. If you know anything about really *riding* a
motorbike, your first (18th??) choice would definitely not be a Harley.
Ask me about my Mike Hailwood replica, 1000cc Ducati. Sweet bliss. Fast,
smooth, more grunt than an angry bear and handling that can make a grown
man cry with joy, able to stop on a dime and give 9-cents change! The
sound from the Silencios? *Music*

Peter
Still adhering to the rule....
 "There are old motor bike riders,
 "There are bold motor bike riders,
 "But, there are no old and bold motor bike riders!

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From: "Mike Henry" <[email-masked]>
Date: 9 Dec 1996 17:51:01 GMT

I've got a Sherline lathe & mill and was more than satisfied with the
quality, including the tooling.  One of the deciders for me (other than the
opinions here and on CIS:Handcrafts) was the excellent web site that
Sherline maintains.  Somehow, seeing a detailed price list and manuals for
all tooling on line gave me an impression of quality and integrity.  As I'm
a beginner, I've also had to pick up quite a few accessories and I've been
leaning toward Starrett for anything I think will need a long life with
frequent use.  I'm probably overbuying quality on much of the stuff I'm
buying ($25 for a 1/4-20 die?) but sometimes once can't afford the savings
of cheap stuff.

OTOH, my (and wife's) last 5-6 cars have all been Hondas - 100k on each and
almost no troubles.  I'd like to buy American cars but get scared off by
the problems some of my friends have. 

The Hurdy Gurdy Man <[email-masked]> wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...

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From: "PyroWare" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 09:31:10 -0600

OK Sherline, I have heard nothing but good!  Please, Please, <beg, whine>
make us a 11 X 24 or 12 X 36 quality American machine with moderate bells
and whistles!  Your current tools are too small for me.  I will buy a
larger machine, and gladly cough up moderate $$ for one.  If I had big $$
I'd already own a spankin' new Monarch or Hardinge.

Is a larger lathe out of the question?

Kurt Bjorn

> [email-masked] (Michael Horgan [Lughaid]) wrote in article
<[email-masked]>...
> Bryan. Not only is the Sherline made in the USA, it's made in San
> Diego County.  Head a little North to San Marcos, and visit the
> Factory.  Tell Joe Martin about what you were told, and take a look at
> one of the finest machines around. He'll be glad to show you, too! 
> OTOH, if you aren't up to the travel from UCSD, then visit the
> Sherline Web Site at
> http://www.electriciti.com/~sherline/
> I think you'll buy the Sherline!

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From: Ken Smith <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 04:29:15 -0500

PETER
     ITLIAN BIKES and ITLIAN WOMEN / NICE WHEN NEW BUT HARD ON PARTS.

     H/D may be farm equipment but all you throw away is the "OINK".
KEN

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From: Mike Patrick <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:11:54 +0000

>  "But, there are no old and bold motor bike riders!

Peter:

Ducatis are indeed a wonderful, although somewhat single purpose 
machines.  I'd submit, though, that a Harley XR750, produced in about 
the same numbers as your Ducati, wouldn't bore you...

Mike

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From: George Edwards <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:58:05 -0600

> I think USA tools are still pretty good.

Totally agree!  To quote 2 well used but often ignored sayings:

"You gets what you pays for" and "There ain't no such thing as a free
lunch"

George

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 11 Dec 1996 17:34:51 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, Mike Patrick
<[email-masked]> writes:

>machines. 

You got that right. I had forgotton the pain of riding in traffic until
you hit the open road where the Duc really performs. Ask me about 7-1/2 
degrees of steering lock and a clutch lever load that takes two men and a
small boy to operate.

 I'd submit, though, that a Harley XR750, produced in about 
>the same numbers as your Ducati, wouldn't bore you...

Not familiar with the XR750 and not sure what significance you imply by
the numbers produced.

Peter

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:49:03 GMT

Mike:

No, it was Alberto from London who wrote the first article.

Just a single thought: 

"If my blessed American friends, 
can not get warm their you own products,
and the type of lifestyle and images they have created,
why should the rest of the world still buy them ?"

When I was a student I needed to roaring sound
of a Ducati, to fry my Saturday night fish.

Now, I am happy with the purring sound of my
Harley Davidson, and a pretty young wife 
just behind me.

Alberto

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From: [email-masked] (Michael Horgan [Lughaid])
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 11:04:25 GMT

>Is my 

Michael Horgan ([email-masked])
http://users.aol.com/Lughaid