Subject: Reconditioning...

From: Jerry <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:27:07 -0400

Hello Everyone,

Have been reading this newsgroup for a couple of weeks, and really
enjoy clicking here! Nice to find folks with the same interests.

I'm sure the following is not an original idea, but would like some
opinions:
          I've read (and re-read and re-read) Connelly's book-just
          fascinating! However, in reconditioning a metal lathe, why
          not use Tig welding to build up the worn areas of the ways.
          Just a small section at the time. The original, untouched
          "ends" would be preserved and used as the reference for
          grinding/scraping the built-up areas.

          This would seem to have some advantages, one being the
          elimination of shafting realignments.

                       What do you think?
                  ******************************

Also, to those questioning buying a lathe: I purchased my (@1942) South
Bend Model A 9x36 about 6 years ago for $750 and have been quite
satisfied, although the ol' girl shows wear. I've probably spent $700-
$1000 in additional tooling,etc...and  been quite amazed at the quality
of work this machine is capable of producing, despite obvious wear
on the ways. It seems the result is more dependent on the
patience and determination of the operator than on the accuracy of
the machine...well, almost. Enco was OK to buy toolholders, etc from-who
can afford Armstrong?
                                                    Best Wishes,
                                                    Jerry Gregson
(PS- A dealer in used machine tools once told me
 that he scraps, or parts-out, any lathe that
 will allow a .020 feeler between precision straight
 edge and way surface...sound right?)

---

From: tonylos <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Apr 1996 01:37:23 GMT

>          elimination of shafting realignments.

Me thinks ya ain't no welding cast iron with TIG. No to mention the 
problems with warping the bed due to unequal heating.

---

From: tonylos <[email-masked]>
Date: 24 Apr 1996 01:37:37 GMT

>          elimination of shafting realignments.

Me thinks ya ain't no welding cast iron with TIG. Not to mention the 
problems with warping the bed due to unequal heating.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 24 Apr 1996 18:12:09 GMT

tonylos ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Jerry <[email-masked]> wrote:
: >Hello Everyone,
: >
<snip>
: >          fascinating! However, in reconditioning a metal lathe, why
: >          not use Tig welding to build up the worn areas of the ways.
: >          Just a small section at the time. The original, untouched
: >          "ends" would be preserved and used as the reference for
: >          grinding/scraping the built-up areas.
: >

: Me thinks ya ain't no welding cast iron with TIG. Not to mention the 
: problems with warping the bed due to unequal heating.

Even if a TIG (or MIG) technique can be found for welding onto gray cast
iron, you would still have the problem that it would be most difficult to
scrape, for two reasons.
1) It would be a heat-treated material, as all weldments are, and annealing
	it would be very difficult, without a massive oven.
2) it would be pretty lumpy, and scraping works best when the metal is 
	already machined flat, and of uniform hardness.

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:59:34 GMT

Jerry <[email-masked]> wrote:
>  Could you give full info on the Connelly book ,ie full title ,publisher , subject etc . thanks mike

---

From: Steve Wellcome <[email-masked]>
Date: 25 Apr 1996 12:12:52 GMT

Tig welding to build up the ways...

I seriously doubt this would work.  In the first place, you'd
be building up with steel (right?), not cast iron.  In the
second place you'd be introducing horendous stresses into the
bed because of the localized heating, and I strongly suspect
the bed would warp on you.  Since we're talking acceptable
tolerances here of much less than .001", it wouldn't have to
warp much to totally trash it.

---

From: [email-masked] (Antonio Palama')
Date: 26 Apr 1996 11:45:09 GMT

Steve Wellcome ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Tig welding to build up the ways...

: I seriously doubt this would work.  In the first place, you'd
: be building up with steel (right?), not cast iron.  In the
: second place you'd be introducing horendous stresses into the
: bed because of the localized heating, and I strongly suspect
: the bed would warp on you.  Since we're talking acceptable
: tolerances here of much less than .001", it wouldn't have to
: warp much to totally trash it.

I agree that Tig welding would probably put too much themal stresses in the
bed so that the bed woul be prone to warping, maybe even some years after
the reconditioning job is complete.
However, there are two other metal deposition techniques that could be worth
trying: 
- galvanic deposition of nickel or other machinable metal,
- plasma spraying of an iron based alloy or other metals.
Does anyone have experience with this techniques to advise us poor 
reconditioners of _VERY_ worn lathe beds?

Ciao, Antonio.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jonathan M. Elson)
Date: 26 Apr 1996 04:45:35 GMT

Michael John Hide ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Jerry <[email-masked]> wrote:
: >  Could you give full info on the Connelly book ,ie full title ,publisher , subject etc . thanks mike

The book, "Machine Tool Reconditioning", by Edward F. Connelly, is a real
'brain dump' from the master of a lost art.  I beleive Mr. Connelly is
selling this book himself, from :
Machine Tool Publications
Suite 208
1600 University Ave. W
St. paul, MN 55104

The price is $42.00 + 4.00 shipping.  The book is a reprint of a 1960's
edition. It was originally typescript, printed by offset on clay-coated
paper.  The drawings are freehand, but very well done and legible, the
photos are excellent halftones.  It is over 500 pages of about 8 1/2 x 11",
hardbound.

The book is a bit narrower than its title implies.  It mostly covers the
techniques of measuring errors in machine tools, using relatively simple
tools such as straightedges, precision levels, scraped squares and a dial
indicator.  By following the text, you can quickly learn how to measure
tilt, lack of orthogonality, wear in slides and beds, etc. on macine tools.
It is really pretty simple after seeing the methods described.  It also
covers scraping to repair these inaccuracies, although it discusses finding
WHERE to scrape much more than HOW to scrape.  I think this may be because
the scraping technique is one of those personal abilities that one develops
only by doing, and he couldn't describe it better if he tried.  If you
know where to scrape, and how to measure how well you did, then you will
just 'learn by doing'.  the book really doesn't discuss any of the other
aspects of reconditioning, such as power sources, tapers, spindle bearings,
and many of the other areas that may need work on a machine.  It does
give some methods to test the accuracy of a machine spindle, but then
doesn't really indicate how to fix it if there is a problem.

So, if you have a milling machine that has slop in the table, or a lathe
with enough wear in the bed to cause problems, and you want to try hand-
scraping it, this is probably the only full-size book still in print that
will help you.  I beleive it was WELL worth the price to me!

I haven't done any scraping yet, but I have collected some of the tools,
and have gone through my lathe and mill, finding what is worn, and what is
OK.  I was actually surprised - my lathe bed may have come from a new but
damaged lathe, and been combined with other parts that had substantial wear!
My mill, which I always thought was in great shape, shows substantial wear
in the table slide.  Without the Connelly book, I'd have never figured out
how to measure it.

Good luck!
						Jon

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Drumm)
Date: 27 Apr 1996 01:05:23 GMT

In message <[email-masked]> - [email-masked]
(Jonathan M. Elson) writes:
->
<snip>
->So, if you have a milling machine that has slop in the table, or a lathe
->with enough wear in the bed to cause problems, and you want to try hand-
->scraping it, this is probably the only full-size book still in print that
->will help you.  I beleive it was WELL worth the price to me!
->

I bought the book a few years back right after I bought my Clausing 13x40
lathe. The machine had been used for threading crane hooks for years, and the
bed was worn badly( .009 depression ~8" from the headstock). I took me about
2 months of 'couple hour a night' work, but I did get the bed straight again
:)

[email-masked]
Using Warp/Neologic News/IAK
Wausau, WI. 44d 58m 00s N x 89d 36m 45s W
All opinions are my own, even if they are wrong!

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Enterline)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 11:58:34 GMT

>Ciao, Antonio.
I know a guy who worked for a machine reconditioning shop.  Their
technique for building up worn ways was to machine down the ways, then
glue (epoxy, I think) in new steel strips.  Then they ground the ways
true.  I imagine the strips were hardened, don't know the thickness.

Tom Enterline
Metal and stone hobbyist, computer professional
Horsham, PA (near Philadelphia)

---

From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
Date: 29 Apr 1996 16:59:02 GMT

In a talk given by a used machine tool company owner,
we were told about the latest tools for reconditioning,
and indeed, building new, machine tool ways.

Forget the Turcite, guys, now you can pour your new
movable slides.

An example of rebuilding a lathe:

1. Have the ways ground at about $100- $150 per foot.
   Tell the grinding shop how much you want removed.
2. When the bed comes back you then coat it with
   mold release (evenly would be a good idea).
3. Jack up your headstock, carriage and tailstock
   by the same amount as was removed from the bed.
4. Inject a (sort of) Turcite-like epoxy called
   Moglich (made in Germany) under the three items
   and Voila!, you have a new, perfectly fit up
   lathe.
   Note:  This is not the full story but it is close to
   true.
   Cost:  Moglich (from Germany) costs about $125 per pint.
   Source: I have to find it yet.  But it exists.

   Cautions:  From the same source, we learned that
              bed grinding is a hit and miss business
              with a high probablility of problems.
              Of course the reputable shops will redo
              the job but first you have to detect a
              problem.  Not easy, I'd say.

My feeling is that there are a lot of other problems
contributing to lathe inacuracies that should be corrected
before looking to 'fix' the bed.  It takes a lot of way wear
before your lathe will no longer hold 0.001".

Best regards,

Mike Rehmus

P.S.  NAMES was simply marvelous darlinks!

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Brooks)
Date: 29 Apr 1996 17:23:10 GMT

I joined the Bay Area Engin Modeler's club a couple of weeks ago, and the
speaker was a used tool seller/reconditioner from Santa Cruz.  He mentioned
that there's a rather good way to build up really worn beds and ways..I think
the material is called Turksite, though with my second-hand hearing (bone
replacement implants in both ears), it could have been something that
sounded a bit like it.

If I got it, the stuff is (like?) an epoxy with a bunch of filler metal.
It's molded on about 15 thousandths thick, an then can be scraped in like
cast iron.  The guy said that some new machine tools are being made with
this technique, especially some of the *really* big mills--the kind that fill
a warehouse.

Mike Rehmus was there taking notes.  Perhaps he could elaborate on the 
technique.

Pete Brooks

---

From: Alan Reinhart <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:12:35 -0400

>           elimination of shafting realignments.

[snip]

NO WAY JOSE!  :-)   Don't weld it - grind it!  I have an old
10" Sheldon that had the kind of wear you mentioned - better than
.020 dip about 8" away from the headstock, where all the kids
(school lathe) did their turning. I stripped the machine down
to bare bone, took the bed, main carriage and tail stock base
to a machine rebuilding shop, and they did the following:

1. Ground the bed flat to .0001"

2. Milled out the V's in the carriage and tailstock base, the
epoxyed in a bearing material that looked like leather but
was some high-tech composite of teflon and other plastic.

Don't be put off by the term 'plastic' - this was VERY rugged
stuff. They called it "plating", and it was to take up the
amount they ground from the bed. Techically, this "plating"
was supposed to be scraped in, but freelance rebuilder told me
not to sweat it - it was MORE than adequate for hobby work.

That work cost $600 in 1984 or so. I also bought new half nuts
>from  Clausing (who now handles Sheldon parts), for $100!
Replaced all the needle bearings in the change gears, and had
a few teeth rebuilt in the bull gear. Stripped all the paint off
of it, then used Rust-Oleum primer and Hunter Green enamel to
refinish it. Looks pretty nice, and does work as good as I am
capable of doing...

I always wonder if I would have been better off just buying one
of those nice Grizzly 12" imports... but is was a lot of fun!

Regards -

Alan R.

---

From: [email-masked] (Robert Grauman)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:22:56 mountain

In article <[email-masked]> Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]> writes:
>From: Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: Reconditioning...Pour your way back to accuracy.
>Date: 29 Apr 1996 16:59:02 GMT

LARGE SNIP

>P.S.  NAMES was simply marvelous darlinks!

So tell all us poor saps who couldn't make it to Wyandot all about NAMES!!!!

				RJG

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 1 May 1996 11:20:18 GMT

>the material is called Turksite, though with my second-hand hearing (bone 

Please don't tease. where can we get it and how much is it ?  

 
Vinny Genovese ; I wish I had a clever quote.

---

From: [email-masked] (Michael John Hide)
Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 03:47:55 GMT

Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]> wrote:

Gentlemen
I am a total amature,in all probability the re is a perfectly good
reason why manufacturers did not do this but,as the bed and ways
essentially determine the performance of the lathe why wasnt the bed
precision ground to accept hardened replacable ways . seems this way
the machine could be essentially returned to as new condition without
too much trouble.Or perhaps the original manufacturers never
envisioned these marvellous machines lasting so long .Anyhow thats 
what this idiot thinks.
   thanks for putting up with me  Mike

---

From: [email-masked] (Russ Kepler)
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 22:40:15 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
Michael John Hide <[email-masked]> wrote:
>envisioned these marvellous machines lasting so long

The accuracy needed to add a replaceable bed to a lathe would likely
exceed the work needed to fit the lathe several times after reginding,
so that option would add unnecessary cost to a lathe's price.  In any
case, you'd still have to refit the carriage and possibly the
tailstock after replacing the worn parts of the bed.  The time and
work needed would be the same for regrinding the existing bed or
replacing the worn bed, so there's no real savings.

Your final sentence is the real reason, however.  We're looking at
refitting 30+ year old machines, some even older.  We're doing it
because the final product is better than a cheap import because we can
invest some "sweat equity" and gain some real value that way.  Most of
us couldn't afford to have a pro rebuild one of our machines, but we
can do it ourselves and only send out the hard stuff.

>   thanks for putting up with me  Mike

That's what news forums are for. 

-- 
Russ Kepler posting from home  [email-masked]

                      Please don't feed the Engineers

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Drumm)
Date: 5 May 1996 11:07:52 GMT

In message <[email-masked]> - [email-masked]
(Michael John Hide) writes:
->
->Mike Rehmus <[email-masked]> wrote:
->
->Gentlemen
->I am a total amature,in all probability the re is a perfectly good
->reason why manufacturers did not do this but,as the bed and ways
->essentially determine the performance of the lathe why wasnt the bed
->precision ground to accept hardened replacable ways . seems this way
->the machine could be essentially returned to as new condition without
->too much trouble.Or perhaps the original manufacturers never
->envisioned these marvellous machines lasting so long .Anyhow thats 
->what this idiot thinks.
->   thanks for putting up with me  Mike
->

 Some newer lathes are made with replaceable way sections. Two people I know
have Summit lathes, they have  sections about 12" long which can be replaced
if damaged, -BUT-, when a section is replaced, the entire bed must be
reground to insure accuracy(they are too hard to scrape). This is simply
because no two machines are made _exactly_ the same, and no two sections are
_exactly_ the same.

[email-masked]
Using Warp/Neologic News/PMMail/iLink2/IAK
Wausau, WI. 44d 58m 00s N x 89d 36m 45s W
All opinions are my own, even if they are wrong!