Subject: Re: NEWBIE WELDER

From: Frank Perdicaro <[email-masked]>
Date: 11 Dec 1996 18:05:00 GMT

I was persuaded by this newsgroup to go and take welding course,
and I urge you to do take one.  8 hours a week of welding instruction
has made a HUGE difference in my ability, and the cost is low.

Cheap and easy are not always possible.  I can now say that a 
trailer could be assembled using one of the Lincoln AC/DC machines
at HomeDepot, and a lot of 1/8" 6013 rod at about 85-90 amps. It
took a few months to get to this point, but now I'll never forget.

A GOOD power supply for welding is not cheap.  And you need clothes
and tools and a helmet.  How much can you afford?  Having looked into
this exact area, I can say with certainty that it is cheaper just 
to buy a trailer than to buy the tools to make one.

---

From: "D.Young" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:09:17 -0800

Hi there,

	I know very little about welding but I would like to learn the art.  It
just seems like such a useful skill.  I wouldn't mind throughing
together a utility trailer to start with.  What would be the best type
of welding setup that would be cheap and easy to operate for a beginner
such as myself???  Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks, Dan

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 12 Dec 1996 16:15:29 GMT

In <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams) writes:
>"D.Young" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>>Hi there,
>

I've been welding now for 35 years and used an old Lincoln 180 amp AC 
welder that was made in 1957. I now use mostly a 250amp Miller mig. I've 
built literally hundreds of projects over the years. My suggestions to new
welders are to acquire the following equip (depending on their budget) in this
order.

- Lincoln 225amp welder set from Home depot, etc.

   Gas torch is more flexible but harder to master
   MIG is more forgiving to the new welder but more costly for the size of job.

- Floor metal bandsaw

   Portable power bandsaws can be useful but not as precision as the floor one.
   You'd rather not use a hacksaw

- 4 or 4 1/2" right angle grinder

   Use with assorted grind rocks, wire wheels, etc.

-  Good import drill press. - preferably 1/2" 

Other things to have around for your project.
  Metal square
  Chipping hammer
  BFH (big hammer)
  Soapstone
  Vise Grip welding clamps (I've had nothing but bad luck with the imports)
  
Safety

  Welding helmet and gloves
  Face shield for grinding and drilling

If you are really serious about welding after your trailer project, the next thing
to build is a welding table. They vary in size. Mine is made from a 4x8 sheet of
1/2" plate steel. Would take the world for it. Moved it down from NC to TX when
 I moved here last Feb.

Randy Ray
IBM / ISSC
Smart Home Architect
Utilities Industry
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 05:55:47 GMT

>Thanks, Dan

I built tons of stuff (literally) with a Lincoln 225 amp AC
welder of the type often seen in Home Depot or mail order
catalogs.  Miller also makes a nice home shop welder that
size.  They need a 50 amp 220V plug to power them.  I highly
recommend getting a name brand welder like Lincoln, or
Miller, etc.  Welding equipment can be used a long time, and
parts will be available.

That welder plus a small horizontal metal cutting bandsaw, a
hand held 4 1/2" grinder (I use a DeWalt 6amp model),  an
imported 1/2" capacity drill press, and a bunch of "C"
clamps, and you can make a lot of useful things.  One really
terrific "accessory" for your electric welder is an oxy/Acet
cutting torch.  

Most of welding is cutting and fitting metal.  The arc
welding part doesn't take to long on most small projects.  

One other extremely useful gadget is some sort of strong
magnet in an aluminum 1 qt. pot with a handle.  Wave it
around clost to the surface over which you have been working
with ferrous metal and it  will pickup all the grindings and
metal pieces that fall on the ground or concrete.  The pot
keeps them seperated from the magnet.  Pick up the magnet
and they will fall off the pot, into a waste container if
you happen to be holding it over one.  Really helps with the
clean up.

Pay attention to "where" you weld and cut.  Think safety.
The stuff is hot and can throw sparks capable of starting
fires a long ways - like 15 or 20 feet.  It is also really
hot.

Fitch

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Dec 1996 04:20:20 GMT

Ah, but now you can build something else,  and you already have the tools!

REgards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 06:24:23 GMT

>to buy a trailer than to buy the tools to make one.

The class is a very good idea.  I was not fortunate enough
to ever have the opportunity to take one so taught myself by
reading books and practicing.  That was a lot of years ago.

BTW you can use 6013 on AC only welders.  That was the rod I
used a lot with my 225 amp AC Lincoln - also some 7014, and
a few pounds of 7024.  It would take a long time to list the
stuff I built with that welder, a $200.00 bandsaw, saw, a
sears grinder, and a drill press ($179.00 cheap imported
thing that won't die after years of abuse so I can buy a new
one!).  The torch came later.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Jens)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:01:42 -0800

>you happen to be holding it over one.  Really helps with the

Hey .... COOL ... one of the most annoying things about welding and
grinding is the mess it makes out of my 90 degree fixturing magnets.
I've been meaning to try putting them in a plastic bag for picking up
the metal bits but figured that the bag would probably puncture too
easily or be too difficult to deal with when you try to peal it off
the magnet ..... got to try the aluminum can trick !!!!
(Now where would I find an aluminum can ??? Guess I could use a
plastic bucket too)

Jens

>fires a long ways - like 15 or 20 feet.  It is also really

Been there, done that, got some car carpeting to proof the theory of
hot sparks   :)

---

From: [email-masked] (Ernie Leimkuhler)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 02:01:09 -0700

> such as myself???  Any comments or suggestions are welcomed.

Hi Dan

If you are interested in using the older methods then go for a basic
Lincoln Stick welder. They cost about $300 and have around 200 amp output.
However , if you are more interested in getting things done than saving a
few bucks, then buy one of the baby MIG welders by Miller Hobart or
Lincoln.
They run on 110v AC power and if you get the gas bottle , the welding is
extremely easy.
I teach welding classes. Whenever I have a new group who have never welded
before, I have them try all the other machines( Betamig 250 , Miller
Econotig, gas , and Stick) , but I always make sure that they try my
Hobart Handler 120.
After struggling with the bigger machines it is like a hot melt glue gun
for steel. 
I love watching them flip up their hoods with big grins on their faces
when they realize that they can lay down a really pretty weld.
The nice Baby MIGs all cost around $500, but Lincoln does make some really
small ones for under $300.
Gas torches are great , and are still the best way to learn welding, but
they are a little ponderous to use for anything other than brazing and
cutting. 
You will soon learn that your best freind is a good 4-1/2"  or 5" right
angle grinder, and an assortment of flapper discs, grinding wheels,
cuttoff wheel, and wire wheel cup brushes. I personnally recommend the
Porter Cable 5" grinder. It is made in Germany by Metabo, and is built
like a tank.

Make freinds with a local welding supplier. Ask around the local metal
shops to find one that has a good rep.
Having a good relationship with a supplier can be a real blessing.

To REALLY learn welding you should check out your local trade schools.
An added benefit to taking classes is that you usually get to work on home
projects in the shop.

Another point is that you can rent almost any welding equipment before buying.
Most welding suppliers rent welding equipment for very reasonable rates.
Also if you are interested in a particular machine, you can usually test
drive it at the store before pluncking down your money.

-- 
Best of luck

*********************************************************************
                            Ernie Leimkuhler
                   STAGESMITH PRODUCTIONS
                     Custom Metal Fabrication
       ABANA       AWS        SCA        IATSE Local 15/488
                        Renton, Washington, USA
*********************************************************************
" 'Reverse primary thrust, Marvin,' that's what they say to me, 'open airlock number three, Marvin. Marvin, can you pick up that piece of paper?' Can I pick up that piece of paper! Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to ...." - Douglas_Adams

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:38:17 GMT

Ernie Leimkuhler wrote:
> > together a utility trailer to start with.  
> >
> > Thanks, Dan

> few bucks, then buy one of the baby MIG welders by Miller Hobart or

I hesitate (well, not much) to critique Ernie, who does such an amazing
job of making anvils, but..

I have heard it said that unless you are really good at mig welding, it
is a great way to make good looking, WEAK welds, and that it should not
be used for structural stuff (picture the trailer falling apart at 60
mph with a 12" lathe on it...). I don't know mig welding from a hole in
the ground, but that's what I heard from folks who know.

-- 
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: Frank Perdicaro <[email-masked]>
Date: 12 Dec 1996 17:44:28 GMT

Check out your welding books a bit more. 

6013 works great on DC.  In fact, this is the preferred method
for welding sheet metal with 6013.  Only once have I used 6013
on AC.

Vertical down 6013 DCRP on 16 ga steel is like using a caulking 
gun.  Very fast and easy to control.

Welding class final exam in 8 hours.......

---

From: [email-masked] (Jens)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:00:00 -0800

>the ground, but that's what I heard from folks who know.

I agree ... I can make real pretty stuff but won't touch a structural
job that could result in major (property or persanal) damage such as a
trailer. Most welds I lay down are fine but there is always the one
cold/low penetration joint that sneaks in. It's just not worth the
risk.

Jens

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 12 Dec 1996 20:07:26 GMT

>Ah, but now you can build something else,  and you already have the
tools!

Hey Mark, have you been to aNdy'S school of Internet etiquette?

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (john d. robinson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:31:56 GMT

>  Face shield for grinding and drilling
Suggest also earmuffs and at least a dust mask.

             John Robinson, Mechanician
  Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
                1513 University Ave.
                 Madison, Wi. 53706
                    608-262-3606
                  FAX 608-265-2316
	Current World Land Speed Record Holder 
		Bonneville Salt Flats
   	  H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt 
		  131.333 MPH set 1995
		  136.666 MPH set 1996

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 02:41:29 GMT

<snip>

I have heard the same thing about MIG welding.  Most of my
structural welding is on stuff that is easy to stick weld,
so that is what I do.  The top rail on my arena fence
though, used .068 NR211 and was that nice.  I had the BG
Earnie was talking about all day!

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Gavin Donahue)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:56:46 -0700

> Suggest also earmuffs and at least a dust mask.
You also want to keep the hot flying blobs of stuff from going in your
boots (leather), down your collar (welding suppliers have special
"ski-mask" like hoods that also help with the stuff that wants to hand on
top of your head) or up your sleeves (gauntlets that are long enough).
Breathing any of the fumes is bad-berries especially if you weld anything
that's cad plated (not recommended). As your skills improve the pops and
resultant molten barrage subsides. Avoid synthetic clothing (melts) except
the special stuff from the jobber. Leather is hard to beat and I made a
usefull bib out of old leather coat from a thrift store cut down and worn
backwards. Have fun!

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 06:49:47 GMT

>usefull bib out of old leather coat from a thrift store cut down and worn

All true and good advice.  I weld outdoors a lot.  I added a
leather back to my helmet to both keep the glare from making
it hard to see and to keep the hot stuff out of my hair
(well, where it used to be once upon a time - its thinner
there now, not all from burning!).

Fitch

---

From: Tom Krause <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:38:19 -0600

> the ground, but that's what I heard from folks who know.

 I have owned a 110v/130amp Cebora (also sold by Daytona and others)
for about 5 years.
 My first big project other than some sheet metal work and basic stuff 
was a dirt track vintage stock car to run with a local club.
See the car at:http://www1.cedar-rapids.net/00000134/HOGNOSE.HTM
 This car started as a bare 50's pickup frame,I biult and welded 
everything--spring mounts,steering components,motor mounts etc.
Drove this thing 10 -15 races a year for three years,then scientifically
tested it on a concrete wall in the spring of '96--OUCH!!
 I bent and mangled everything,buckled leaf springs,bent the frame,
snapped one rear axle shaft,bent the axle housing back 8 inches etc.etc.
 One of the pictures shows some of the damage.
Not a broken weld anywhere!!Lots of broken pride,but I reassembled
everything and raced again,sold the car later for different reasons.
 This is not a project for a complete newbie but I probably don't 
have any more welding experience than the average home tinkerer,just be
careful,and test some of your welds first.
 Needless to say I have complete confidence in this $395 welder,It has
served me well.
Tom

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 21:50:05 GMT

>   [email-masked] (TEKDAD) writes:

(much good material deleted)

>  Additionally I have built an adapter for my wood stove
>  which allows me to burn wood pellets instead of cord wood,
>  yet can switched back to cord wood in only a couple minutes.

I'd love to hear more about this!  How does it work?  What
does it look like?  How easy would it be to adapt for a
top-loading Tempwood?

Many thanks.

Owen Davies

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:23:20 GMT

>Welding class final exam in 8 hours.......

Frank,

Good luck on your exam.

You are correct that 6013 works great on DC. 

My point was only that you *can* use 6013 with an
inexpensive AC stick welder (SMAW to you welding school
graduates <G>) to build a whole lot of very useful projects,
and don't need to spend the extra $$$ for a DC welder if you
don't want to.  To quote from the "The Procedure handbook Of
Arc Welding" , Twelfth edition, page 6.2-10, Published by
the Lincoln Electric company.  A terrific book BTW.  Mine
was copywrited in 1973.  Probably they have updated it a lot
since then.  

"E6013:  this electrode is used in place of E6012 for
sheet-metal welding where appearance and ease of operation
are more important than speed.  AC operation is excellent.
It is recommended for general-purpose welding with small AC
transformer welding machines having low open-circuit
voltage."  

To the "NEWBIE" 

If you are a beginner, trying to learn to weld, and don't
have a class room handy, 6013 and a reliable AC welder, and
some of the other teaching books my Lincoln and other major
welding suppliers give you a good chance to make it on your
own.  6013  is probably one of the easiest all position rods
to weld with, It is forgiving about how it is stored - a
plastic tube holder with an "O" ring works quite well, and
using AC takes arc blow out of the picture until the you are
ready to deal with it.

You can have a pretty capable "garage project" (oh dear,
that may start the flames, well, at least I didn't say
"Hobby") welding shop with the following equipment:

225 Amp AC Transformer welder  
Small import horizontal bandsaw
A welding/cutting stand you make your self as a first
project
Vise to mount on your stand.
!/2" bench or floor standing drill press and a set of drills
to 1/2"
4.5" angle grinder and some "wheels" for it
some "C" clamps (you will never have enough)
1/2" variable speed pistol grip drill with a screw in
auxiliary handle, something  in the  800 rpm range (does all
that a 3/8 drill does and can use the same bits as the drill
press).
Couple of hammers - at least one 2.5 to 3lb "beater" and a
smaller one for center punching, etc.
Center punch, cold chisel, scriber, rat tail file, box of
soap stone, and a nice file to sharpen it,
and last but not least, a bone yard

With some careful shopping, looking in the recycler, etc.
that capability can probably set up for $800 to $1,400.
Thats a lot of capability for that much money.  You can
build trailers, engine hoists, repair farm machinery, build
farm machinery, make lathe stands, build other tools,
wonderful non-sag gates, patio furniture, custom outdoor
grill stands, and general have a really fine time living
life in the creative first person.  At least I did for a lot
of years.

Make friends in the welding store.  Becoming a regular, even
though only few dollar a buy, customer will get you a lot of
free information in a welding store.  Buying your welder
there will more than repay the couple of extra dollars you
will spend on it.  

After "doing it" for a while you will almost certainly want
to add an Oxy/Acet cutting/welding/brazing capability.  The
torch is probably the most dangerous of the equipment
because of the acetylene.  Its not bad if you know its
quirks, but if you don't, you can get in serious trouble, or
worse.  

Get the "welding store" where you buy it to give you a
couple of hours of safety training on it before you take it
home.  Probably you will use the torch most for cutting,
which consumes a lot of oxygen, so you may want an extra
oxygen cylinder if you really "get into it" and start
building large projects with a lot of cutting, and hate it
when you run out of oxygen and there is no place open to get
some.  (Some where it was written that Fitch shall only run
out of oxygen after Saturday noon.  Fitch has two oxygen
tanks.)  A good Oxy/Acet outfit will cost $350 to $600 new
depending on the tanks, etc.  

You will want a couple of pair of forge tongs after you burn
your hands a few times on hot metal.  

You will also use the torch for *bending* metal.  Its almost
as handy for bending as it is for cutting.  You can bend
some awsomely strong stuff by heating it up.

That brings the investment up to $1,150 to $2,000.    You
can build so much stuff with that as a shop that it boggles
the mind.

Then you will probably want an anvil - which can start a
whole thread all by itself.

And then a forge, and then, if you weren't before, you are
surely a goner.  You will never again have "spare time".
One of the few things more addictive than the feel of laying
in a nice bead of weld is heating and beating metal on an
anvil.

The last thing I would add is a small MIG unit unless the
only things you want to build are made of sheet metal.  Good
ones of these can run $500 to $1,200 depending on how they
are set up and what sort of gas supply you get.  In terms of
general purpose bang for the buck, they can't really compete
with a stick welder except in special circumstances.  I have
one, and I really like it, but it would be the first thing
to go if I had to choose to lose something out of the shop.

A final observation.  By the time the AC welder in the shop
outlined above is grown out of, you won't need to ask what
welder to buy, you will have been drooling on its picture
for years.  Trust me on this.  Been there, done that.  Wore
out three Ranger 8 brochures before my wife bought me one.  

I hope you end up with a welder.  It is a tool that can set
your creative juices free.

Fitch
Dutifuly checking his book  ...

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 05:54:20 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

>welder that was made in 1957. 

The one with the plug in cable connections?  The neighboor
on the farm across the road had one of those.  I welded up a
lot of stuff with it.  I think it also had a "fine
adjustment" set of three (?) plugin holes to use with each
major setting.  It was a tad bit smaller phycisally than my
AC 225 and didn't need a cooling fan as I recall (it *was*
40+ years ago that I used it).  

>I now use mostly a 250amp Miller mig. 

Drool.  One of my brothers in has has one of those.  He
loves it.  Uses it for body work on the cars he restores for
a living, and anything else he needs to weld.  

>I've 

>  Vise Grip welding clamps (I've had nothing but bad luck with the imports)

So true.  The imitations just don't last worth beans.

>  Face shield for grinding and drilling

Your list and mine sure agree.  I think we have been welding
about the same length of time - I started in 1956.  Are you
by chance self taught also?

>1/2" plate steel. Would take the world for it. Moved it down from NC to TX when

Right on!  I have one of those - bought it through the
recycler - $100.00 I think.  Feel the same way about it.  It
follows me the rest of my life.  Only 4' X 5' though, but
with a 3/4" top.  *Very* handy.  (And real darn heavy.)
Mine is outdoors where I do most of my welding.  I set it on
metal plates under the casters to keep it from sinking out
of sight when it rains.  I use the fork lift attachment on
my tractors three point hitch when I have to move it.  I
also like to use an open angle iron stand - especiallly for
cutting.  

I'm giving serious consideration to building the Radial Arm
Flame Cutter described inthe Metal Web News by Richard
Walker.  I like the looks of the pipe frame he has it
mounted on.  Looks really practical, not to heavy (compared
with the other solid top table), and it could be carried in
the back of the 5' by 8' trailer that has my Ranger 8 and
torch mounted on it.  I'd probably build it out of angle or
square tube though - would make it easier to clamp things up
on it for welding.

I've also given consideration to building a skeleton
tailgate for it that could be slid into a holder welded to
the side rails on my trailer to make an eractable welding
table that took no space in the trailer.  (I like to carry
my 2hp air compressor in the back of it also - I can run it
using the 8,000 watt auxiliary generator in the Ranger 8).

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (TEKDAD)
Date: 13 Dec 1996 08:33:57 GMT

I still consider myself a "NEWBIE WELDER" and only wish I had started many

years sooner.  I now have 2 machines, Lincoln 200 amp AC/DC stick and a
Lincoln Weldpack 100 w/mig kit.  Love them both.  Also have 14" abrasive
chop
saw and 4-1/2" right angle grinder.

I have never taken any classes and have confidence in my welds (lot's of
practice
followed by scientific testing of joints with a very large hammer.  I also
on occasion
cut thru my practice welds to inspect for penetration.

I would really like to hear what some of the projects are that many of the
other 
respondents have eluded to?  I have frequently stated that my welder is
the best
woodworking machine I ever purchased!  Why?  Because all of my woodwork
machines are now on roller bases and my table saw now sports a large
substantial
extension table with a T-Square fence that is accurate, will not slip when
locked,
will rip up to 36 inch wide.

Additionally I have built an adapter for my wood stove which allows me to
burn
wood pellets instead of cord wood, yet can switched back to cord wood in
only
a couple minutes.

My most recent project was a "Big Wheel Brush Mower" ( you know the kind
that
sells for $1000 and up!)  and was constructed for less than $100 including
the 
purchase of a used Rototiller from which to steel the motor.  It works
great and
my son has named it the MANGLER.

Sufice it to say that my welding equip has paid for itself many times
over!

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 11:42:47 GMT

>cold/low penetration joint that sneaks in. It's just not worth the

Very rarely happens except to people who have never used MIG. When I owned a fab 
shop, one of my new employees had just welded up a hitch bracket, was walking 
towards the customer with it in his hands, when the receiver tube literally fell off 
the bracket. You should have seen the expression on the customer's face. (and mine.) 
At any rate, you can easily see cold welding when working, and an experienced welder 
knows what will work and what wont. I often demonstrate cold welds to new employees 
to show them how nice they look.... and how useless they are.

Regards, Mark

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 11:55:45 GMT

Nah, the fingers just don't move where I tell 'em anymore!

ReGARDS, Mark

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Dec 1996 11:53:59 GMT

This message from Fitch was just about the best advice I 
have ever seen for a 
beginner. Especially about using 6013. I won't even let 
new people use anything else 
until I know they know what they are doing. (which is 
rare.)

This should be saved for the FAQ.

REgards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (Ernie Leimkuhler)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 22:00:44 -0700

OK guys lets get this straight some people actualy think that MIG is
weaker than stick.
You have got to be kidding. The only reason this would apply is if someone
knew nothing about MIG welding.
Amp for amp MIG is hotter and cleaner than any stick weld.
I can lay down a single pass weld on 1/2 inch plate that is scorching hot
, and when I'm done I can see the whole weld without chipping off the
slag.
The only realm where stick wins over MIG is outdoors , such as High steel,
but if you run Dual shield or flux core wire in a MIG then it is a toss
up.
Skill for skill it doesn't matter what process you use . I can lat down a
better weld with oxy-acet than some people could do with a MIG or Stick.
Stick welding is cheap and versatile, but not stronger than MIG.

I think the main problem is that with many forms of stick welding stringer
welds are preferred, but with MIG a woven  weld is almost always better.
If you lay down stringer welds with a MIG, you have to really crank the
machine up to cover the area with enough heat to prevent cold shuts.

Okay I've ranted enough.
let the flames begin

-- 
Best of luck

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 14 Dec 1996 07:49:46 GMT

>for welding sheet metal with 6013.  Only once have I used 6013

  With every body giving rave reviews of 6013 I thought that I might add
my opinion. While I agree that 6013 will give you some of the best looking
welds possible with a stick welder. I've been welding going on 20 years
with a very old 240 amp Marquett "cracker box" as they used to be called
or AC welder as people now refer to them. I started very young and
basically taught myself how to weld. Though I've been through at least a
couple of courses on welding during this time though I wouldn't call them
anything extensive. The first was in VoAg in high school and while the
instructor used to be a pipeline welder he never really got around to
really teaching very much besides the book part. The other was while in
the Air Force and it was just to allow me to use the stuff when I needed
it. It didn't teach much except the safety issues. While I now weld a lot
with 7018, 7024, and 6013 on a DC welder at work I still prefer the old
cracker box at home with 6011. I read somewhere and agree with it that an
AC welder will get better penetration than a DC welder. That is expecially
true if you use 6011 rod. It tends to burn deeper than most of the other
rods. Its also more forgiving of dirty metal than the others since it will
burn right through paint and rust. I personally find it a lot easier to
use out of position than any other rod that I have tried so far. While its
darn near impossible to get as pretty a weld with it. I generally feel
better about the strength of the weld produced by it when compared to
6013. At least when doing mild steel. You just about have to use 7018 for
alloy steels. Though I have had pretty good results welding some alloys
with 6011 if I will just preheat it and then anneal the weld afterwords.
While I know a lot of people who just plain hate AC welders and say that
they aren't very good. I really prefer one. My old Marquett is kind of
hard to learn how to use. It just has the a circle of plugs for the
elecrode lead to adjust the amps and they are fairly course at that. Its
also seems to be harder to start the arc with though with my years of
experience with it I don't have trouble anymore I've know experienced
welders to have trouble with it. You also have to be able to live with
what ever heat your'e getting. There is several tricks that can be used to
do this but I won't go into detail about them here. Really not to sure
which is easier to learn to use AC or DC. They each have there own
different set of difficulties to deal with. AC can be harder to maintain a
good arc with but I've had sometrouble with DC in the past with the arc
bending to one side do to the magnetic field generated by it. Ok I still
have trouble with this though not as much. I havn't used DC very much
except in the past 3 years. 

  The main thing that I wanted to state here was to not discount 6011 to
much. While its not a rod for making pretty welds. To me its easier to
use. This is mainly because of the amount of flux that the other rods
produce. I have had trouble at times with the flux getting in the way of
the weld. Though this is primarily when welding in tight corners or deep
in grooves. I also have a lot more trouble keeping the weld from running
when welding out of position with other rods. This is probably because
I've run about 20 times more 6011 than any other rod. But it is a very
versitile rod expecially if you're like me and use every piece of scrap
that you can lay you're hands on. It really doesn't matter to 6011 if the
piece is rusty or that its got 5 layers of paint. Just stand up wind and
burn right through. Though I would be careful not to breath to much of the
burning paint fumes. This is not to much of a problem for me as I weld
outside and live in the windiest part of the USA. 

  Whew this has gotten longer than I intended. I just get kind of
passionate trying to defend my favorite rod.

   Wayne Cook

Quality is like buying oats,
        if you want nice, clean, fresh oats you must pay a fair price.

However, 
        if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through
the horse...
                          
That comes a little cheaper...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 14 Dec 1996 07:49:41 GMT

>cold/low penetration joint that sneaks in. It's just not worth the

  I agree as well. When I went to work at the shop I work at now we had a
very good 400amp mig welder. Everybody was scared of it. I turns out that
they had built a big motor base. Were talking somthing on the line of 4
feet by 6 feet made out of good size I-beam. When the company got it they
found it wasn't the right size though it had been built to the specs that
had been given. When they took it to be changed the guy that fixed it had
to grind some of the welds away. What they found was that while the weld
looked good it had not really stuck everywhere. There would be a section
that was stuck good followed by a section that wasn't stuck at all. Scary
thought. I have since seen a lot of factory mig welds on stuff like
bearing hubs and the like that have torn loose. You can look at the piece
and see that it didn't stick. It just pulled out of the weld. No tearing
like you get when a weld fails but it looks just like it would if the hub
was just a press fit in the weld. I think that mig is really good for thin
stuff mut I would be really careful of trusting it on a heavy cross
section. Its just to easy to just hold the arc in the middle of the weld
and let it build up like you was doing caulking. That generally won't
allow a heavy piece of steel get hot enough to melt into the weld. If you
do use it to weld heavy sections be sure to weave the arc so that you get
next to the piece of metal a melt it on each side as you go. While I'm not
a expert at this I believe that the biggest reason that the welds fail is
that people pretend that the mig gun is just a caulking gun and not a
welder. I believe that the definition of welding is the joining of piece
by melting the to togather with or without a filler. If you don't get a
melting of the metal you're not welding. And it can be hard to melt a
heavy piece of steel with a little bitty wire.

   Wayne Cook

However,

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 02:42:54 GMT

What I was saying is that it is easy to get a good looking but worthless
weld with mig. If done properly mig is great. If not done properly it can
be bad and you can't tell by looking at it. I firmly agree with you about
the weaving. I think that what can get you in big trouble is to just act
like you're caulking. You might get by with that on thin stuff but never
on heavy stuff unless you've got one big welder.

   Wayne Cook

However,

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 14 Dec 1996 13:10:16 GMT

No flame here; I agree. I think the problem here is that it is easier to lay down a 
useless MIG weld and have it look perfect than with stick. The strength of a 
properly applied weld has very little to do with the process type.

Regards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 04:08:24 GMT

sometime early in this thread someone mentioned the key to makeing any
kind of weld . be it stick , flame ,tig or mig. that is weld
preperationwhen properly prepared any weld wil be safe and strong. that
includes proper heat ,speed ,andfeed rate. i have used all types except
tig with excellent results.  my favorite is mig but like i said i haven't
tried tig yet .[my wife said i allready have enough welding machines]     
      jamie

jcranegt90

---

From: [email-masked] (Bill)
Date: 14 Dec 1996 14:24:50 GMT

>does it look like?  How easy would it be to adapt for a

I too would like to hear about this. ...
I spent most of the fall trying to do the same for my garage. I have
made a burner that looks something like a small forge that is feed
pelltets from a storage bin via a auger from a commercial coffee
grinder. But havent been to sucsessful at feeding the pellets at the
right speed, w\out making a big mess or not fast enough.

---

From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 14 Dec 1996 15:42:56 GMT

>knew nothing about MIG welding.

    Just to head off some of the flames, I've welded for a lot a years
too and don't find that mig or stick or flame is all that much
different in strength. You just use whichever when it is convenient. I
will say that the first few passes you ever make with mig are likely to
be poor....but after a little practice it is all the same. Stick is
stronger if you need to get down into a pocket just because it is
easier to jam the stick in there! If I am doing something like an axe
head I will usually use flame because I have more control over pre-heat
and expansion....does require re-hardening though.
                                                    Roger L.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tom Enterline)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 17:04:18 GMT

>Earnie was talking about all day!
IIRC according to AWS (American Welding Society) standards stick
welding is "pre-qualified", but MIG is not - I think that means you
have to show them you can make a good weld.

Tom

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 01:52:20 GMT

[email-masked] wrote:

<Snip

> While I now weld a lot
>use out of position than any other rod that I have tried so far.

<snipped interesting experience>

>the weld.

Reading your excellent post it occurred to me that in 40+
years of welding on countless different things I had never
struck an arc with 6011.  So I dug out my book again to read
about it, and it turns out that I have, although I didn't
know it at the time.  6011 is sold in three flavors by
Lincoln (Its their book, so there rods are whats in it).
Fleeetweld 180 is one flavor of 6011 specially optimized to
work with 225 amp AC welders.  I've probably burned 30 or so
pounds of that over the years.  I remember liking it.  I got
into the habit of asking for 6013 a number of years ago
after I had some thin stuff to weld and a welder friend
suggested using 6013 as a good sheet metal rod.  it worked
well for me, so I kept buying it.

Your experience and Lincoln's recommendations agree 100%.  

Me thinks I shall take me hence and purchase a few pounds.

I started welding some alloy steel (drill tube and sucker
rod) to build my arena fence and it was recommended to do
that with 7018.  So I read about it, got a small oven to
keep it in, and started using that.  Once I got used to it,
and had an AC/DC welder, I started using it most of the
time.  It doesn't restart as well as other rods, but once I
got used to it it wasn't a problem.

>passionate trying to defend my favorite rod.

Not a problem!  Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 02:59:24 GMT

>right speed, w\out making a big mess or not fast enough.

A plug in thermostat switch from Home Depot and a fan speed controller
>from  the same place could do it all for under $15.00

Peter

---

From: [email-masked] (arnie)
Date: 15 Dec 1996 03:51:23 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>in response to fitch,what you said about 6013 rod,it is not true,6013 
rod can be used on d,c.+. Being certified in 
s.m.a.w.,g.t.a.w.,g.m.a.w.,f.c.a.w.,o.a.w and pipe welding,i say to the 
newbie,if you want to do it right,go to school it is money and time well 
spent. Arnie

---

From: [email-masked] (Peter Wiley)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 09:45:15 GMT

>cold/low penetration joint that sneaks in. It's just not worth the

Me, too. When I did welding to boilermaker standard in the early '80s, MIG
was not permitted for pressure vessel work. Too damn easy to get cold
laps, especially if you're a beginner, welding vertical down etc.

While I have a h/duty 250A MIG welder, if one machine had to go, that'd be
it. I do all structural work with a stick welder using 6011 electrodes.
The MIG is nice and fast for fabrication work, though, and I have used it
to weld 6mm aluminium on occasion. That is an interesting experience.
Humbling is another word that comes to mind.

Peter Wiley

---

From: ANDY POPKY <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 18:02:31 -0500

the pellets are in the shape of a football
but smaller of course.
the size is as follows:
1.312" long
..437" dia
4.2875" radius across the chord
all tolerances + - .005
the best wood to use is aged doug fir
no less than 2 years but no more than 5 years

best regards
ap

may the swartz be with you

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 13:25:32 GMT

With all the recommendations abot E6013 rod, I cannot let this go by
without mentioning E6011.  Sparks like a day in hell, but penetrates, and
will work overhead fine.  Just keep yor hat on, and anything vital
covered!!!!!!!!!

Been welding since I was 10 years old, now  I collect old welders
(machines)  Got a Forney that is my favorite one, however I have a
Craftsmen that weighs about 300 # and stands up 4 ft tall.  250 amp.   My
3 phase Linde Mig welder is my favorite wire welder though.  3 phase just
works smoother.

Cecil in OK

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Dec 1996 15:39:22 GMT

Dear Fellow Metalworker:

When you good US friends talk about wood pellets, what do you
realy mean ?

What is their size ?
What is their prize by the 100 weight ?

and lastly how are they made ? Are they just pressed,
or sawn from free growing timber.

The closest pellets we can get here, are drop size material, too
small for firing at any case.

So thanks for trying again

Alberto

---

From: [email-masked] (Bill)
Date: 15 Dec 1996 16:27:19 GMT

>from the same place could do it all for under $15.00

I though about using a T-stat, but not knowing what the temp range
will be for on/off I didnt know where to start. I didnt want to buy 5
differnt stats to figure out the righ range. 

Am I able to find a cheap stat that has a broad range that I can work
with ?? 
Would a Stat like the one in my living room work ?
I would think not, I would imagine I would want to read temps INSIDE
the stove as  not have too long a reaction time and let the fire burn
out.

 However I do think that a stat would work much better than A timer
 ( wich might be my next attempt)

---

From: [email-masked] (Georgie Stanford)
Date: 15 Dec 1996 18:51:07 GMT

Ernie Leimkuhler ([email-masked]) wrote:
: Amp for amp MIG is hotter and cleaner than any stick weld.

: The only realm where stick wins over MIG is outdoors , such as High steel,
: but if you run Dual shield or flux core wire in a MIG then it is a toss
: up.

: Skill for skill it doesn't matter what process you use . I can lat down a
: better weld with oxy-acet than some people could do with a MIG or Stick.
: Stick welding is cheap and versatile, but not stronger than MIG.
: 
: Okay I've ranted enough.
: let the flames begin
What flames? I think you're right, from my little experiance, (like a 
local commuter approving of Richard Petty's driving style). But 
I've got something to add. I've had throat cancer, so whenever I weld I 
have to use a mask and a big fan. Stick welding (and to a lesser extent 
flux core) makes clouds of toxic smoke, but MIG is very user friendly. 
And with the portable shield that straps to the handle I can do away with 
the face shield so the respirator becomes less claustrophobic. 

Georgie

---

From: [email-masked] (J. Forbes)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 00:18:02 -0700

In article <[email-masked]> ANDY POPKY <[email-masked]> writes:
>From: ANDY POPKY <[email-masked]>
>Subject: SIZE OF PELLETS
>Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 18:02:31 -0500

>no less than 2 years but no more than 5 years

And what animal did these pellets come from?

Jim

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim and Janet Forbes                          [email-masked]
Sierra Vista, AZ             URL= http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes
--------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 02:40:59 GMT

[email-masked] (arnie) wrote:

<snip>

>newbie,if you want to do it right,go to school it is money and time well 

Arnie,

I've reread all my posting in this thread.  What did I say
about 6013 that is not true?  %(    I can not find anything
I said that is not backed up by my references.

Reading your statement that you can use 6013 on DC+ makes me
wonder if you are perhaps misreading the sentence in the
text above that reads "BTW you can use 6013 on AC only
welders."  That sentence is correct.  All it says is that
you can use 6013 on welders that do nothing but AC.   It
does not say, or even imply,  you can *not* use 6013 on DC
welders.  It says nothing at all about DC welding.  

I can't find in anything I wrote anyplace where I said that
you can not use 6013 on DC welders.  

Lincoln states in their book titled "The Procedure Handbook
Of Arc Welding" to use "DCSP for best performance" - page
6.2-10, twelfth edition - section on fill-freeze electrodes,
which is exactly what 6013 is.  That would be electrode
negative, AKA DC-.  You can also weld with it DCRP,
electrode +.  Nothing says you can not.  Both are listed,
Lincoln  just says to use DC- (DCSP) for best performance on
all applications except when arc blow is a problem.  They
recommend using AC to control arc blow. 

Lincoln bulletin M210, "Weldirectory" [sic] says the same
thing on page page 11, section on fill-freeze electrodes. 

Also in bulletin M210 they suggest that both their 6013 rods
(fleetweld 57  and fleetweld 37 are the Lincoln trade names)
are excellent for AC operation  even with 225 amp (low open
circuit voltage) AC welders.  

You can build a whole bunch of stuff with 6013 rod and a 225
amp AC transformer welder.  And with 6011 (fleetweld 180
among others) also as was quite correctly pointed out.

If I missed your point and it was really something else I
said about 6013 that you disagree with, please let me know.
I surely don't want to give out bad information.

Fitch

---

From: [email-masked] (Fitch R. Williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 02:49:03 GMT

Tom Krause <[email-masked]> wrote:

<snip>

<snip>

>tested it on a concrete wall in the spring of '96--OUCH!!

That was some "test".  Glad you are OK.  Have you considered
the concept of NDT?  (NDT = Non Destructive Testing)  It is
highly recommended in some circles .......<G>

Fitch

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:26:37 GMT

>newbie,if you want to do it right,go to school it is money and time well 

This is an interesting question... when I went to school, I was taught that if the 
last digit was odd, it was usable on AC.  Comments, anyone?

Regards, Mark

---

From: Mark Winlund <[email-masked]>
Date: 16 Dec 1996 02:29:40 GMT

Fitch... I shouda' read this first. Your post matches my memory exactly. 

Regards, Mark

---

From: [email-masked] (J. Forbes)
Date: 16 Dec 1996 00:11:01 -0700

>What is their size ?

About 1/4" diameter (thats about 6.5 mm, right?) by 1/2 to 2" long (they break 
easily)

>What is their prize by the 100 weight ?

About $200 a ton (2000 pounds) here in southern Arizona.

>or sawn from free growing timber.

They are sawdust, extruded thru a 1/4" hole, it appears.

We've been using a pellet stove for heat for the past 3 years.  We burn about 
a ton a year.  Sierra Vista is only a stones throw from the Mexican border, 
but we're over 4000 ft elevation, so it does get nippy occasionally.

Jim

---

From: Paul Pierce <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 08:12:02 -0700

Fitch R. Williams wrote:
> ......ago.
> >>used a lot with my 225 amp AC Lincoln - al......
> >>Fitch
> >>
> ......
> welders."  That sentence is correct.

That is how I read it...  I don't think Arnie understood what
Fitch meant to say.

.....
> you can not use 6013 on DC welders.........
> Fitch

-- 
Paul in AJ AZ  NRA Endowment Member

Checkout the Metal Web News at:
new address (11/23/96)

http://www.ten.k12.tn.us/~wgray

Checkout the FAQ at:
http://PLAINS.UWYO.EDU/%7Emetal/index.html

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 16 Dec 1996 15:10:50 GMT

>the stove as  not have too long a reaction time and let the fire burn

Yup you are right, goes to show what shooting from the lip can cause. :)>

If not reading inside then at least the outside surface but I wonder if
you are getting too exotic here. I would imagine after the fire settled
down a bit a simple timer and a speed controller might do the trick.

Ok, so now I am giving the reply a little more thought. See if you can
find an interval timer and adjust the speed of the feed motor to dump a
small load in every three minutes or so. Adjust the speed of the motor but
leave the intervals the same. Go watch a fire running and take a stop
watch with you.

I have just tried the Electronic Goldmine and All Electronicsd but they
don't have the timers. I have seen them somehwere recently for about a
five minute cycle. Maybe Surplus Center or C&H. Check the FAQ for those.

Peter

---

From: "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:23:04 GMT

> knew nothing about MIG welding.

What we said was that you can get a great looking weld in MIG that isn't
very strong if you don't know what you are doing.

Now check out what the original topic was: NEWBIE WELDER.

'Nuff said.

-- 
Steven O. Smith
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked](Roger Loving)
Date: 17 Dec 1996 02:18:23 GMT

In <[email-masked]> "Steven O. Smith" <[email-masked]>
writes: 
>What we said was that you can get a great looking weld in MIG that
isn't very strong if you don't know what you are doing.
>>Now check out what the original topic was: NEWBIE WELDER.
        The first time I welded with MIG the joint fell apart when I
took off the C-clamps! I looked at it, practiced for a while  and all
was well from then on. BTW, CO2 is a cheap shielding gas, but a
beginner would be better off with MIG mix.
                                                Roger L.