on info for SANET newsgrou 7 Aug 31 Karl L. Wuensch (37) Re: SACRED DATURA 8 Aug 30 Lawrence F. London (57) Re: your mail 9 Aug 30 Lawrence F. London (87) Re: your mail 10 Aug 29 Lawrence.London@bb (86) Triangle Freenet You can use any of the following commands by pressing the first character;d)elete or u)ndelete mail, m)ail a message, r)eply or f)orward mail, q)uitTo read a message, press . j = move down, k = move up, ? = helpCommand: groups you and Danny might enjoy 10 Sep 2 Tyler R. Holcomb (64) You can use any of the following commands by pressing the first character;d)elete or u)ndelete mail, m)ail a message, r)eply or f)orward mail, q)uitTo read a message, press . j = move down, k = move up, ? = helpCommand: Display messageMessage 2/152 From Chris Yoder Sep 4 '92 at 1:52 pm -420 Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:52:16 -0700 Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: We just got new batteries! X-To: ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list EV US Batteries *FINALLY* came out with their 140 amp-hour 12 volt batteries. I've been waiting for these things, bugging them every 3 or 4 weeks, hoping to replace our 104 amp-hour 12 volt batteries. This morning I went down to their factory in Corona and picked up a set of 10. Finally I get to take care of all those projects that have been waiting for me to pull the batteries out before I could get to them... (Mostly applying paint, the original conversion used paint that wasn't rust proof, and between the rain last winter/spring and some battery acid leakage the original paint just didn't hold up!) For those of you who don't know me, my wife and I have a 1984 Honda CRX that we've had on the street in electric mode since late October of last year. We've put 2,200 electric miles on it so far, and have generally been having a There are 31 lines left (47%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. lot of fun with it. I think it's fair to call it our "First" car rather than our "Second" car, mostly because if we can take the electric, we take it. It's only when we can't take the electric that we take infernal combustion vehicle. (The only problem with the electric was that we couldn't quite get to the nearest Trader Joes and back... And that was the main design constraint for the car! :-) ) It's got a 9-45 h.p. Advanced DC motor, one of the "silent" Curtis-PMC controlers and is powered by a 120 volt pack consisting of a set of 10 12 volt batteries. With the batteries I just pulled out of the car we got a maximum range of 30 miles, if everything is perfect. I managed to get the car up to 85 once before I decided that I didn't really want to get a speeding ticket (I could have gone faster). We anticipate about 45 miles max with the new batteries. (I'll keep the list posted once I actually get to test the new batteries.) One last thing before I go: The INFO-EV and EV lists have merged into the EV list. All subscription/unsubscription requestes should go through the LISTSERV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU (Also a BITNET node). I will be moving the INFO-EV anonymous FTP archives there as well "Real Soon Now". If you need help with using the LISTSERV, send a mail message to it with the text consisting of the word HELP. Thanks to all who have supported the INFO-EV list up to now, I have There are 9 lines left (84%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. every hope that combining the two lists will be a good thing for all involved. -- Chris Yoder Internet --- Chris@HMCVAX.Claremont.Edu VMS Systems Manager Harvey Mudd College Bitnet ----- Chris@HMCVAX.Bitnet Disclaimer: Harvey Mudd College takes no responsibility for anything I post. I make no money forwarding this information to the net, I am simply an electric vehicle user who is interested in promoting the use of electric vehicles. Command ('i' to return to index): Sep 8 pvdbos@VNET3.VUB.A (124) Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team 7 Sep 8 Christopher P. Tul (37) freenet 8 Sep 8 Christopher P. Tul (42) Next Meeting 9 Sep 8 Arnold Zwicky (38) Re: Naturalism---could we have a gro 10 Sep 7 Judy Hallman (69) Re: Database people (fwd) You can use any of the following commands by pressing the first character;d)elete or u)ndelete mail, m)ail a message, r)eply or f)orward mail, q)uitTo read a message, press . j = move down, k = move up, ? = helpCommand: Display message Message 2/167 From clyde@JARTHUR.CLAREMONT.EDU Sep 8 '92 at 1:20 pm pdt Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:20:13 PDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: CANCEL info-ev X-To: Electric vehicle mailing list To: Multiple recipients of list EV On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:43:47 -0400, bel@cbcde.att.com wrote: > I subscribed to the info-ev mailing list from two different email > addresses by mistake. Please remove this one from your list. > > Thanks, > Brad Lance > bel@cbcde.att.com Prior to last week there were *two* electric vehicles mailing lists: EV and INFO-EV. Chris Yoder (the list owner of INFO-EV) and I (the list owner of EV) decided to move the subscribers of INFO-EV to EV There are 15 lines left (65%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. and shut down INFO-EV. Postings to the INFO-EV mailing list address will now be forwarded to EV. Requests to be added or deleted to/from the INFO-EV list will be forwarded to me which I'll handle by hand. The listserver at sjsuvm1 will have the INFO-EV ftp files "Real Soon Now". Currently, the combined subscribership on EV is 269! The idea behind the consolidation of the two lists is two-fold: - non-duplication of efforts and bandwidth - allow Chris Yoder to devote more time contributing to the list by off loading its maintenance to me. Chris, I've found, to be a staunch electric vehicle enthusiast and owner. crv Command ('i' to return to index): Message 3/167 From Chris Yoder Sep 8 '92 at 12:15 pm -420 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:15:16 -0700 Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team X-To: EV%SJSUVM1.BITNET@VM.USC.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list EV At the Solar and Electric 500 there were two converted race cars that were pulling consistant 80 MPH laps and about 95 or so down the straight-away, a Formula 440 and a Midget racer. (Phoenix International Raceway is a one mile oval track.) The Formula 440 had a *REALLY* sweet battery changing scheme, they had two groups of 5 (12 volt) batteries on each side. The contacters were powered by air cylinders, one in the front and the other in the back. They provided both "lock down" and power. The fastest pit they did was about 13 seconds. They seemed to get 12-15 miles "at speed" before needing to change the pack. The Midget had a total of 8 12 volt batteries, but each one was connected There are 29 lines left (49%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. separately and the tie-down system wasn't as good. They were pitting every 18 to 20 laps as I recall, but their fastest pit was about 30 seconds. On the track the two cars were giving people a real show. It was fun watching them lap the rest of the pack. :-) The difference between the cars was in their pit times. One of these days I'll scan a picture of the Formula (I don't have a good one of the Midget). The organizers of the International Electric Grand Prix (mostly a street rally that will be held here in L.A. Oct. 16-18) have a "Formula Race Car" class anticipating more of these vehicles. Contact info: Formula Race Class: Steve Gillespie 265 Orchard Lane Upland, CA 91786 (714) 982-9854 International Electric Grand Prix: Peter Hackus 301 1/2 Central Ave. Seal Beach CA 90740 There are 7 lines left (87%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Display messageMessage 3/167 From Chris Yoder Sep 8 '92 at 12:15 pm -420 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:15:16 -0700 Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team X-To: EV%SJSUVM1.BITNET@VM.USC.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list EV At the Solar and Electric 500 there were two converted race cars that were pulling consistant 80 MPH laps and about 95 or so down the straight-away, a Formula 440 and a Midget racer. (Phoenix International Raceway is a one mile oval track.) The Formula 440 had a *REALLY* sweet battery changing scheme, they had two groups of 5 (12 volt) batteries on each side. The contacters were powered by air cylinders, one in the front and the other in the back. They provided both "lock down" and power. The fastest pit they did was about 13 seconds. They seemed to get 12-15 miles "at speed" before needing to change the pack. The Midget had a total of 8 12 volt batteries, but each one was connected There are 29 lines left (49%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. separately and the tie-down system wasn't as good. They were pitting every 18 to 20 laps as I recall, but their fastest pit was about 30 seconds. On the track the two cars were giving people a real show. It was fun watching them lap the rest of the pack. :-) The difference between the cars was in their pit times. One of these days I'll scan a picture of the Formula (I don't have a good one of the Midget). The organizers of the International Electric Grand Prix (mostly a street rally that will be held here in L.A. Oct. 16-18) have a "Formula Race Car" class anticipating more of these vehicles. Contact info: Formula Race Class: Steve Gillespie 265 Orchard Lane Upland, CA 91786 (714) 982-9854 International Electric Grand Prix: Peter Hackus 301 1/2 Central Ave. Seal Beach CA 90740 There are 7 lines left (87%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. (310) 430-9779 -- Chris Yoder Internet --- Chris@HMCVAX.Claremont.Edu VMS Systems Manager Harvey Mudd College Bitnet ----- Chris@HMCVAX.Bitnet ^?^? Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team ^Kr Command ('i' to return to index): Display message Message 5/167 From clyde@JARTHUR.CLAREMONT.EDU Sep 8 '92 at 10:52 am pdt Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:52:01 PDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: fule cell (fwd) X-To: Electric vehicle mailing list To: Multiple recipients of list EV From the technomads mailing list... ----- Begin Included Message ----- From sunkist!Sun.COM!dlb!netcomsv.netcom.com!CS.UCLA.EDU!netcon!hatch!pro-palmtr ee!hatch!netcon.smc.edu!bigsol.apple.com!strata Fri Sep 4 07:25:27 1992 Cc: salsbury@acsu.buffalo.edu, technomads@bikelab.Corp.Sun.COM Subject: Re: Fuel Cells! Yes, and a recent (July? Sept?) Popular Science had an article on the new cars in the Japanese expo and at least one of them uses matrix-hydrogen tech. There are 10 lines left (73%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Looked like fun, the article gave some pros and cons of the technology that I don't remember off the top of my head (yeah, I could fake it, but I get in more trouble that way..I'd rather cite than fudge...) _Strata ----- End Included Message ----- crv Command ('i' to return to index): Message 6/167 From pvdbos@VNET3.VUB.AC.BE Sep 8 '92 at 7:25 pm 180 Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:25:43 +0300 Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team X-To: EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list EV >Is anyone else on the list interested in racing? > >If you don't care about racing, skip this message. > >SynchroSystems is going to develop and sponsor an electric autocross >race car. > >My short-term plan is to develop an electric SCCA Modified class >autocross car. I am going buy some kind of SCCA formula 'roller' (car >without engine) that is too old to be very competitive in road racing. >These can be bought for $2k and up, and are ideal for autocrossing. An >electric drive system would be installed in the rear-engine rear-drive There are 96 lines left (22%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. >car. The open engine and drive train are great for experimenting and >tinkering. > >I think autocrossing is an ideal racing format for electric vehicles. >It is a single-lap time-trial on a very twisty course. Lap times are >usually on the order of one minute. You generally have 5 minutes to an >hour between laps, 3 or 4 laps per event. The top speed in SCCA Solo II >autocrossing is technically 80 mph, but a fast car might reach 100 in >some local events. In my reasonably stock Integra, I spend most of my >time in 2nd gear, with occasional visits to 1st and 3rd. The speeds go >up for Solo I and Pro Solo. > >Torque and cornering are what count in autocrossing. Obviously you can >change (or even charge) batteries between laps, so range is not an >issue. The biggest challenge for the storage system and motor will be >handling a lot of power for a short period of time. Since there won't >be a lot of batteries to carry, the suspension and brakes should not >require any modification. In fact, the ability to move the batteries >around could prove useful in balancing the car for various track >conditions and configurations. I probably don't need to point out that >the car would be a real torque-monster. As you can see, this really >could be a seriously competitive car. There are 74 lines left (40%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. > >Currently, I know of no autocross/solo sanctioning body that permits >electric cars to compete. There are two issues involved; safety and >competition. > >The safety problem is that the course workers don't know how to handle >an electric car if there is an incident. While gasoline is not exactly >safe, the dangers are well understood by the workers, and the standards >for safely storing and using it are part of the competition regulations. >There are no comparable standards for electric cars yet. Lead-acid >might be acceptable, since it is already used in race cars. I know I >can build a safe electric race car, and the smaller local clubs might be >willing to deal with this on a case-by-case basis, but the larger >regional and national organizations would probably require a formal >rules change. > >The competition problem is simply; who to compete with? One possibility >would be to create a separate electric class. Most local clubs would be >willing to add the class if there were 3 or more competitors who would >use it. It could be very boring until there were other cars, but most >clubs do allow 2 or 3 drivers to share a car. I would prefer to compete >in one of the regular Modified classes (perhaps C or B), however this There are 52 lines left (58%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. >means negotiating a translation of the the classification rules to make >them apply to an electric car. I'm going discuss this with various >local clubs next season, I'm sure I can find someone who'll let us race. > >My long-range plan is to develop a two or four motor direct-drive racer. >Such a car, with a sophisticated control system, could do amazing things >in the corners. > >My interest is twofold. As an active autocrosser, I think this could be >an interesting innovation in the sport. As the owner of SynchroSystems, >I see a potential future market for high-performance control systems for >electric cars. Since SynchroSystems already sponsors a race car, it is >perfectly natural to extend that involvement to developing a new >generation of race car. In other words, I'm going to persue this as a >business venture. > >I'm not rich, and racing any kind of car is expensive, so I hope to >secure sponsorship from both motor and battery manufacturers. While >initial exposure would be purely local, the Nationals are being covered >by the Prime Sports Network this year. I think it would be safe to say >that if an electric car were to compete in the Nationals someday, it >would probably receive TV exposure. With lots of batteries, this There are 30 lines left (75%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. >vehicle could also compete in some of the more 'traditional' electric >car races, another source of exposure. > >Comments? >Ideas? > >Do you know of any motor or battery manufacturers who might be >interested in providing sponsorship or assistance for racing? > >-- >Chuck Cox >In de hemel is geen bier, daarom drinken wij het hier. >:: Silent But Deadly Racing Team REPLY FROM BELGIUM (Het land van het bier!) For your racing application, with high power for short ranges, you need a battery with high specific power. I think NiCad batteries could be a solution: they have the highest specific power of all batteries currently available and can be recharged very fast. Their energy density is somewhat higher than lead-acid. From a safety point of view, they are comparable to lead-acid batteries (they contain lye which is irritant to There are 8 lines left (93%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. the skin, but does not burn through clothing like sulphuric acid does!) The drawback however is that they are very, very expensive! For this reason their use in electric vehicles remains limited. In your particular application however, a small battery could suffice. Message sent by CITELEC at VUB-ETEC. (pvdbos@vnet3.vub.ac.be) Command ('i' to return to index): 7 Sep 9 Bob Berger (71) Re: Economic and Geographic Effects 6 Sep 9 Chris Yoder (28) Re: We just got new batteries! Command: 6 Sep 9 Chris Yoder (28) Re: We just got new batteries! 5 Sep 9 Hank Roberts (20) Re: peoples of persistence Command: 5 Sep 9 Hank Roberts (20) Re: peoples of persistence 4 Sep 9 Ron Natalie (43) Re: Fuel Cells! Command: Display message Message 4/183 From Ron Natalie Sep 9 '92 at 8:36 pm edt Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:36:03 EDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Fuel Cells! X-To: Bob Berger X-Cc: technomads@bikelab.Corp.Sun.COM, ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list EV > Billings said that they plan, this year, to build a small hand > production run of fuel cells capabile of producing 1kw output that they > would sell for about $5k to people interested in experimenting with and > demoing the technology. > > He also said that this techonolgy scales up very well. There is no > reason why a 20 - 30kw cell couldn't be made and not cost too much more > (experimental one off's would cost about $20k, but manufactured ones > would be much cheaper) and not be much larger (on the order of 2 cubic > feet or so). > There are 14 lines left (67%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Hopefully so, Am I missing something or do you need something like 100Kw for a practical vehicle (Kilowatts are the same order of magnitude as horsepower). > An interesting sidenote I discoverd by reading their newsletter is that > Billings was into computers back in the late 70's and applied for > a patent on file servers in 1982. It was issued in 1986 and he is now > sueing Novel for patent infringement! Someday Xerox will wake up and kick some more of these people who are suing other people over technology that they came up with in the first place. 82 sounds a little late for file servers. -Ron Command ('i' to return to index): Folder is '=mbox' with 183 messages [ELM 2.3 PL11] D 1 Sep 9 Ralph P Carpenter (35) Re: remove D 2 Sep 9 Ted Mogel (25) Please remove me D 3 Sep 9 whitney@GEORGE.ARC (20) remove 4 Sep 9 Ron Natalie (43) Re: Fuel Cells! 5 Sep 9 Hank Roberts (20) Re: peoples of persistence 6 Sep 9 Chris Yoder (28) Re: We just got new batteries! 7 Sep 9 Bob Berger (71) Re: Economic and Geographic Effects 8 Sep 9 VERITAS@U.WASHINGT (40) Economic and Geographic Effects of E 9 Sep 9 Bob Berger (99) Re: Fuel Cells! 10 Sep 9 Chuck Cox (49) Re: Silent But Deadly Racing Team You can use any of the following commands by pressing the first character;d)elete or u)ndelete mail, m)ail a message, r)eply or f)orward mail, q)uitTo read a message, press . j = move down, k = move up, ? = helpCommand: 4 Sep 9 Ron Natalie (43) Re: Fuel Cells! 5 Sep 9 Hank Roberts (20) Re: peoples of persistence Command: 5 Sep 9 Hank Roberts (20) Re: peoples of persistence 6 Sep 9 Chris Yoder (28) Re: We just got new batteries! Command: Display messageMessage 6/183 From Chris Yoder Sep 9 '92 at 2:55 pm -420 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:55:22 -0700 Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: We just got new batteries! X-To: EV%SJSUVM1.BITNET@VM.USC.EDU To: Multiple recipients of list EV >Could you send the specs on your new batteries? I'd like to know size, >weight, cost, and anything else you can send. Assuming they are not huge, >they sound interesting. My refference battery is a Trojan which is a 6V >145 amp hour battery. I think it is 90 pounds, $99 and 5 X 7 X 10 inches, >but that is all from my feeble memory! The US Battery 1450 is a 12 volt battery that weighs 85 lbs, has 140 amp hour capacity (at a 20 hour rate), is 6 3/4 x 13 1/2 x 11 inches, and costs $89 wholesale. (I don't know what the retail price is.) -- Chris ^?^? Re: We just got new batteries! There are 0 lines left (100%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. wh Command ('i' to return to index): Message 7/183 From Bob Berger Sep 9 '92 at 12:07 pm pdt Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:07:51 PDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Economic and Geographic Effects of EV Adoption X-To: ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list EV My, what syncronicity! (me posting about Billings and Charlie [veritas] asking about what happened to him) Re, Charlie's question about heating / cooling EV's; In the Hydrogen Fuel Cell technology, the American Academy of Science lit says that the Fuel Cell system does generate waste heat that could be used to warm the passenger compartment. It also mumbles something about the hydride could be use for air conditioning. I think that the Hydride cools as hydrogen is extracted, or it can act as a heat sink... In straight batterie powered EV, I suspect the best bet would be a seperate There are 43 lines left (39%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Natural Gas (NG) heater / air conditioner. In a hybrid electric, you would have some waste heat and enough power for air conditioner. Might want to have some NG or electric heat on the hybrid too since the heat engine isn't allways running. I agree that we should be concerned about where the power for EV's is going to come from. The "Zero emisions" requirements that EV's allegedly adhere to are silly since they don't take in consideration where the electricity comes from. This is why I am excited about hybrid electrics and hydrogen fuel cells. Hybrids can burn less fuel in more efficiant ways (when you consider the total efficiency of generation and transmission). Hydrogen Fuel cells are promising cause it can enable us to concentrate and deliver more diffuse sources of energy such as wind and and solar. One could image both huge centralized solar / hydrogen farms "transmitting" power via hydrogen pipelines as well as distributed hydrogen generation PV and wind on rooftops or "generating / filling stations" where hydrogen can be generated and stored during the course of the day, from which you can refill your hydrogen EV within minutes. There are 21 lines left (70%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Billings also proposes that, for an interum period until large scale alternative energy / hydrogen generation is in place, "filling stations" could have small scale natural gas reformation plants that would convert Natural Gas into hydrogen. He states that the NG reformation / Hydrogen Fuel Cell approach would use the NG more efficiantly than compressed or liquified NG being carried in tanks and burned in internal combustion engines. The reformation process produces less than half of the CO2 / mile than burning it in internal combustion engines and it would potentially allow for easier capture and recycling of the carbon before it was released into the atmosphere. Don't know much about the titanium or copper issues except that we should use wisely and recycle.... Bob Berger - SONY Advanced Video Technology Center 685 River Oaks Parkway San Jose, CA 95134 408-944-4964 FAX: 408-954-1027 INTERNET: berger@sfc.sony.com UUCP: [uunet,mips]!sonyusa!sfcsun!berger JAPAN: berger@sfc.sony.co.jp Command ('i' to return to index): Message 8/183 From VERITAS@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Sep 9 '92 at 11:06 am pdt Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:06:00 PDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was VERITAS@MAX.U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Economic and Geographic Effects of EV Adoption To: Multiple recipients of list EV Dear Friends , I am a super-annuated grad student in Geography with a background in mech- anical design and software development. I am interested in the impact of large-scale use of EVs. Just for a starter, where is the power coming from? The citizens of Sacramento shut down Rancho Seco a couple of years ago and I understand Sewden Sweden plans to eventually shut down their nukes. How about the impact on the titanium refiners (all one or two of them) if titanium hydride cells become the power source of choice. Lots of copper in electrivc motors. I was pleased to hear that Roger Billings is still trying to get something There are 12 lines left (70%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. going with hydrogen. For those of you to young to remember, Billings was the fond founder of Billings Energy Research back in the sixties, he had quite a vibrant organization going. For some reason, probably financial) it went bewlly-up shortly after demonstrating a titanium hydride cell. I am curious about the problem of heating an air-conditioning an EV. Gone are the happy days of using waste heat for this purpose. Here in Seattle it is cool enough to want heat 8 months of the year. Thanks, Charlie veritas@u.washington.edu ^?^? Economic and Geographic Effects of EV Adoption wh Command ('i' to return to index): Message 9/183 From Bob Berger Sep 9 '92 at 11:01 am pdt Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 11:01:09 PDT Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: Fuel Cells! X-To: technomads@bikelab.Corp.sun.com X-Cc: ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list EV I had mentioned seeing the Billings Hydrogen Fuel Cell for use in vehicles and stationary power applications. This had led to my being told about the EV mailing list. Thus I am posting this faq item to both lists. I had seen Dr. Billings at the Solar Energy Fair in Willits, CA in August. His American Academy of Science had a booth, and Dr. Billings gave a presentation. It was VERY interesting as they claimed to have advanced the hydrogen fuel cell technology to the point where it can be manufactured at very low costs. There are 71 lines left (28%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. The fuel cell uses a "proton exchange membrane" to combine hydrogen and oxygen (from air) to produce electricty and water. The fuel cell can work in reverse also, put electricity and water in and get hydrogen (and oxygen) out. The hydrogen comes out with enough pressure to refill the metal hydride storage. They have built a demo vehicle (called the Lasercel 1) that uses hydrogen stored in metal hydride and the Billings fuel cell to convert the hydrogen into electricity to drive the car. The metal hydride storage / fuel cell combo has about 10 times the range of lead acid batteries pound for pound. Hydrogen should be thought of as a mechanism for storage and distribution of power, not as a primary power source itself, as it is not mined or extracted but generated from other less dense or mobile power sources. Hydrogen can be produced from any source of electricity (Photo voltaics, wind, The Grid, etc.) Billings said that they plan, this year, to build a small hand production run of fuel cells capabile of producing 1kw output that they would sell for about $5k to people interested in experimenting with and demoing the technology. There are 49 lines left (50%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. He also said that this techonolgy scales up very well. There is no reason why a 20 - 30kw cell couldn't be made and not cost too much more (experimental one off's would cost about $20k, but manufactured ones would be much cheaper) and not be much larger (on the order of 2 cubic feet or so). Allegedly they are working with many manufacturers and licensing their technology as broadly as possible. Their address: American Academy of Science (Organization started by Dr. Roger Billings) 26900 East Pink Hill Road Independence, MO 64057-3284 816-229-3800 FAX: 816-229-1000 An interesting sidenote I discoverd by reading their newsletter is that Billings was into computers back in the late 70's and applied for a patent on file servers in 1982. It was issued in 1986 and he is now sueing Novel for patent infringement! I generally don't like these There are 27 lines left (72%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. patent battles, but it would be ironic if it ended up funding hydrogen fuel cells! I must admit that there was a tinge to his presentation and the "Academy's" booth and personel that made me uncomfortable, the above patent issues adds to this almost subliminal discomfort. I perceived an almost cultish aura.... Does anyone have any direct experience with Dr. Billings or the Academy? Was I being too sensitive and just reading something into a normal strong personality of Dr. Billings? Unrelated (as far as I know, they had a seperate booth) to the Academy is the American Hydrogen Association: PO Box 15075 Phoenix, AZ 85281 219 S. Siesta Ln., Suite 101 Tempe, AZ 85281 602-921-0433 FAX: 602-967-6601 There are 5 lines left (94%). Press for more, or 'i' to return. Silicon Valley Chapter: 1401 Pointe Claire Court Sunnyvale, CA 94087 408-235-1177 BBS: 408-738-4014 Command ('i' to return to index):