Subject: House design for Mexico

From: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
Date: 18 Sep 1996 14:40:25 GMT

We are planning on retiring in Mexico and starting by building a 
bungalow on a beach lot.  We are very interested in clever 
designs for frugal living and dealing with the sub tropical 
environment.  If anyone has information on clever approaches to:
-solar water heating
-water purification
-designing homes to maximize ventillation and cooling without 
Aircon
-ant proofing storage cupboards
-landscaping as it relates to insect control
and
any other suggestions regarding problems and pitfalls we would 
really appreciate hearing from you!

David and Pat Walker

-- 
David Walker
International Education
Northern Lights College
Fort St. John BC

---

From: [email-masked] (Gary Heston)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:57:24 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] <[email-masked]> writes:
>environment. 

You are aware that unless you're a Mexican citizen, you cannot own
real estate in Mexico?

>              If anyone has information on clever approaches to:
  [ ... ]
>really appreciate hearing from you!

If you end up on a Mexican beach lot, plant pilings deep and build 
above the storm surge level, bracing everything to withstand 150MPh
winds, or you'll get to rebuild after every hurricane.

Enjoy your retirement, wherever you end up being!

Gary

-- 
Gary Heston   SCI Systems, Inc.  [email-masked]   Departmental net admin
   The Chairman of the Board and the CFO speak for SCI. I'm neither.
"All the observing stops, of course, when the observer hits the 
singularity at the center of the black hole." Dr. Robert L. Forward

---

From: "Anthony M. Ippolito" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:30:07 -0400

> really appreciate hearing from you!
I have some architects that may welcome the challange.
Tony
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Paul G.McHenry)
Date: 18 Sep 1996 21:56:02 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>really appreciate hearing from you!
Hi There...

EACI has a lot of information on adobe and vernacular building.
Also many contacts with architects in Mexico.
Visit our home page at the University of New Mexico

P.G. McHenry
Earth Architecture Center International.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Chase)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:02:07 GMT

>Gary

I second the motion.  If you are determined enough to continue, be
prepared for shoddy construction practices, a lack of familiar
building materials, and an incredibly high tariff and transportation
cost on equipment and materials brought into the country. (IF you can
get them.)

My personal experience is that the Mexican government is less than
hospitable.   A latin america friendly company that worked with me was
invited to a trade show in Mexico to show their wares.  Upon entry
into the country over $10,000 worth of equipment was seized by customs
because the proper paperwork was not filled out.

The representatives of the trade show, the American and Mexican
cousulates and 2 Senators were only able to get half the equipment
back.  Sound like a fun place to live?

Think twice about moving to a country where a large portion of the
citizens are trying to move out.

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:05:31 -0700

> really appreciate hearing from you!

     I take it you've really looked into and understood the limitations
regarding non-Mexicans owning land at the beach?  If so, and you're
satisfied with the arrangements, the next step is to consult _locals_
about building anything. The federal government is nearly an invisible
presence in daily life. But it absolutely has all the authority of a
country operating under the Napoleonic Code, which means you, your
property (we'll call it that for convenience) and your residency in the
country will be vulnerable for quite some time.  The culture is such
that networking is the real protection. Make friends with the local
authority figures and ask them how things are done in that neighborhood.
Then do it that way. 
  
     If your lot has no utilities, again, ask what the situation is
locally. Septic tanks and wells are pretty usual where I am (about an
hour south of the border), with liquid propane as a basic fuel. I nearly
brought down a big diesel generator until a local informed me the
government subsidized LP - it turned out to be half the cost of diesel.
It cost $200 to have the generator retrofitted.
 
     Building can be a BIG struggle, if you expect the sort of materials
and workmanship habits you have in Canada or the United States. You'll
just drive yourself crazy if you get all upset by the differences. After
all, you're in someone else's country - adapt! <G>  Again, take the time
to get friendly with the locals. They will tell you what's what. I
wouldn't say that isolating yourself with a completely owner-built home
is such a wise investment. It lubricates things considerably if you try
to be a contributing member of the local economy - shop at the local
store(s), hire locals, spread the wealth a little. It doesn't cost that
much. If you're retiring, it sounds as if you're planning to live there
FOREVER. Invest a little - it's your HOME. Your neighbors are the ones
who'll really look out for you - or consider you a random visitor. Like
everywhere else in the world, friendliness begets coopration and
friendliness in return. 

     Where are you planning to go? Are you planning to take up Mexican
citizenship?

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:22:06 -0700

> You are aware that unless you're a Mexican citizen, you cannot own

    Well, this isn't quite the case. The restrictions (which Mexicans
are looking into changing, though it takes a Constitutional amendment)
have to do with owning land near the shores (I think it's perhaps 30-50
miles, when you translate the statutes). Mexicans have some history of
feeling vulnerable by sea, and they've got quite a lot of feeling about
foreigners coming in and taking the best land/raw materials and removing
resources. In any case, they're a creative bunch. They came up with a
lease which is automatically renewed. "Leasing" such lands means
essentially that one has all the rights commonly associated with
ownership for some 60 years. Your kids can inherit it and they can sell
it or renew the lease also. It has not affected the price of this land
any. In fact, a small business has cropped up. I've heard of Mexicans
taking ownership for a month or two, for a small fee ($25-100) and then
"selling" it back to the leaseholder - which means the 60-year clock
starts all over again.   It works. The fideo comiso is administered by
banks. This is a vulnerability. Banks have raised their prices for the
service from $12 a year to over $400 in some cases. If the economy
crashes a few more times, I can see where they'd look at this as easy
hard currency. Retired folks could get a truly rude surprise. But then,
in America, we've had some nasty incidents where the elderly were taxed
out of their homes, so I'm not sure it's such a Mexican thing. And in
Mexico, you can get around almost anything. I'd have a hard time
imagining an elderly widow being screwed into the ground that way. In
America, it just doesn't matter what the individual story is. In Mexico,
I would suggest she go and talk to the banker and tell him she just
can't afford it. I would expect her to be given special consideration.
In America, I'd just help her pack.

---

From: [email-masked] (Richard J. Kinch)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 00:42:53 -0400

[email-masked] wrote:
> bungalow on a beach lot.

Beware, there have been several scams involving this.  Mexico does not
allow foreigners to own real estate.

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:03:30 -0700

> allow foreigners to own real estate.

    I'd forgotten how common this idea is. It's true in a strictly
technical way that land within some X thousand meters of the shore is
not allowed to be owned by foreign citizens. Changing the Constitution
to allow normal ownership has been the topic of growing discussion
throughout the country for several years. However, it is not
particularly necessary. A 30-year lease (automatic renewal for a second
30 years) is equivalent to an  older American form of ownership called
"fee simple" (I think it was called that, a realtor mentioned it one
day). The lease carries all the usual features of ownership including
use, disposal and inheritance. It's administered through banks. One can
buy insurance which is equivalent to title insurance. Think hard: when
was the last time a retired person bought a house and stayed in it more
than 60 years? 
 
    There have been some scams, as you note. People have "bought" land
which was part of Farm Trusts, which is like trying to buy land in a
national park or Indian reservation. The schemes went on for some time
because the Federal government of Mexico is VERY loosely wrapped and it
can be decades before they find out about anything. IMHO, even the farm
trust problem could still have been handled - if the Americans in
question hadn't been so indignant and socially isolated. But there's no
way we'd allow someone to maintain an illicit housing development on
public land, d'ya think? And we don't allow people caught with stolen
property to keep it, do we? Even if they were scammed into buying it?  

     It also seems to be a worldwide phenomenon that real estate
attracts crooks. 
 
    There are many risks of going off to some foreign country for
retirement. Certainly, being scammed is part of that. But everywhere,
not just Mexico. Seems to me people do need to look into the way things
are done in a new country before they sink their retirement dollars into
it. Retirement is a LONG time (one hopes). It takes four years to get
Mexican citizenship. Seems to me if a place is good enough to live in
for the rest of your life, it's good enough for citizenship. Of course,
that's a whole other discussion.

---

From: [email-masked] (GeorgeS)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 14:33:50 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, 
[email-masked] says...
>
>We are planning on retiring in Mexico 

You might want to consider Costa Rica. It has a big American retirement 
community, and the government is friendly to foreign residents. 

The country has a variety of climates, so you can even choose your weather.

-- 
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh ernyyl bhtug gb trg bhg zber

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:01:48 -0700

RENT !  DO NOT BUY!  TOO UNSTABLE THERE!!

I love Mexico and visit native Mexicans whenever I can.  I thought I 
would like to retire there also but decided to stay in the USA and make 
more trips.........renting apts or condos as I go.

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 23:02:59 -0700

NOT TRUE ! You can OWM property in Mexico!!!!!!!!!

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:50:24 -0700

> more trips.........renting apts or condos as I go.

    I agree that renting is a better deal (usually) for Americans living
in Mexico, but certainly not for reasons of instability. There are a
great many disadvantages to the idea of retiring in Mexico. But if by
"stability" problems, you meant some sort of concerted effort to rip off
the elderly foreigners there, or economic instability, I would suggest
that you take a hard look at what elders are facing here.

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:21:51 -0700

No, Chita, I wasn't referring to the elderly ( I agree btw).  I am 
concerned about the political situation whereas any law permitting 
foreigners buying homes could be swept away with changing governmental 
whims and moods.  The PRI may not hold control forever!  Altho they may 
control the government for the rest of MY lifetime.  Who 
knows>>>>>>>>>>>right?

---

From: Brian K Petroski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:47:56 -0500

> control the government for the rest of MY lifetime.  Who 

     Just a personal quip, but me me "my lifetime" isn't long enough.  I 
want our kids to be able to inherit what I build and be able to live 
there for as long as they like, and likewise as many generation after 
them who are willing to maintain the land.

			    Brian Petroski
			Just your stereotypical
			     polyamorous,
			       bisexual
			    solitary pagan

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:49:21 -0700

Well, I understand.........but how would your grandchildren like sharing 
your nice investment with 30-40 unemployed squatting native Mexican 
Indians, corrupt politicians, and bribe seeking policemen!  Could happen 
if things are not brought under control.........a very tall order, 
indeed???  I love Mexico and Mexicans alot BUT my money is staying in the 
good ole USA (which needs some serious shaping up itself) Entiende??

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:37:46 -0700

> > control the government for the rest of MY lifetime.  Who

      I'm sorry for the nested quote, I can't seem to find the original
message. 
 
      Right off, the "law permitting foreigners to own" isn't just a
statute - it's a Constitutional Amendment. A whole lot would have to go
to hell before such a thing could be overturned. Mexico isn't Columbia,
where the Supreme Court is simply taken out by masked bandits and
executed in the street. Further, Mexico does not operate by these
formalities, near as I can tell. The federal government is so
inefficient, localities go through their own consensus building process
independently - and where I am, it's already accepted as a way of life.
They fully expect the Feds will get to the formalities someday.
Meanwhile, they contract with ATT to build a huge fiber optic link right
up the coast... because they're planning a life built around trading
with their nearest neighbor. 
      
     I do agree that Mexico is undergoing change, politically as well as
economically and culturally. I don't agree with what appears to be your
view that sudden or sweeping governmental change would/could result in
foreign ownership being tossed out the window on a whim.   NOTHING in
Mexican government happens suddenly. Channels of communication are a
problem for the native population, the infrastructure of the country is
abysmal and primitive in many, many areas. So Mexico-centered folks got
their clocks cleaned by that last devaluation cycle.  But there has
always been a certain distance between the federales and the local
populations of most areas. This isn't just a governmental thing, that
relationship is informed by history. I'll say only that in Baja (which
is where I chose to buy) most people have been making contracts
denominated in dollars for some years now. It's one of the first things
newcomers are told.  

     Of COURSE the PRI will not control the government forever! Please
note: PAN (the "other" party, as it were) is even friendlier to foreign
investment and hard currency - and to Mexico's stature in the world
community - than the PRI, who've only recently presented leaders who
understand the benefits of opening the country rather than closing it.
PAN is seen by some outsiders as frightening because change of any sort
is frightening to people who wish to go into a country and EXPLOIT a
helpless, leashed population. PAN is seen as causing "union trouble." 
(Think about what that would mean in America.) PAN notices and talks out
loud about the one-party semi-dictatorship that PRI represents. What
kind of politics is it that feels more secure with dictatorship than
with more freedom? 

     Blunt people have been calling NAFTA "The Foreign Investor
Protection Act" for as long as I can remember too.  Change IS coming to
Mexico - and its direction is toward more international presence, not
less. Look around. The whole WORLD is moving toward the classic American
model of more freedom. We WON the Cold War. It would be a terrible irony
if we responded to that by going all Nervous Nellie.

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:45:24 -0700

> good ole USA (which needs some serious shaping up itself) Entiende??
   
     I dunno where you're talking about, but I suspect my grandchildren
would be at least as comfortable sharing space with 30-40 unemployed
native Mexican Indians as MY mother was with a whole city filled with
thugs, gangsters and well-armed drug addicts who'd think nothing of
stomping, raping and murdering an old lady for pocket change - or just
for the hell of it. 
 
     That was another big reason for the move: after investigating the
situation for a couple of years (I was dragged kicking and screaming,
energized by many of the same thoughts you've shared) I felt much safer
leaving my Mum alone in a rural Mexican area where the nearest town was
ten miles away. I came to see that, even if someone did break in to
steal a stereo or somesuch, I would come home to only a missing stereo,
not a mugged, murdered mother. 

     I have complaints about some differences between the two countries.
But with respect to gratuitous, random violence, Mexico beats America by
MILES AND MILES AND MILES. It's one of the most striking feelings I not
when I cross the border. Things here feel SCAREY compared to there.

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:45:18 -0700

Gosh, Chita, your points are well taken.  With you living there on a day 
to day basis I guess you have a better handle on things...as a casual 
outside observer I see things differently.  As a result your comfort 
level for that situation is mucher higher than mine.  Isn't Baja really 
another world onto it's own, though?

---

From: Robert Morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:56:13 -0700

Well, again we have different perspectives.......where I live their is 
very little violence and never has been ........so if you've come from 
the inner city with those problems, I can certainly understand....btw, 
where are you living in Mex (Baja)?

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:02:35 -0700

Robert Morgan wrote:
> where are you living in Mex (Baja)?  Between Rosarito and Ensenada.

    Well, you're quite right when you note that Baja is/can be quite
different from, say, anywhere near Mexico City. <G> It is very much an
extension of Southern California. There are some 150,000 Americans
there, many of them retired. An increasing number of younger Americans
though, because as they visit their grand/parents, they get a different
perspective. But Baja is not entirely homogenous either, any more than
California is. I've also spent some time in a couple of other areas,
including Sinaloa. In the end, the prime mover was my mother, who liked
San Diego weather and also wanted to keep her Kaiser plan. So moving an
hour south of the border made an easy commute. In Tijuana, there are
also increasing numbers of Americans, who work on one side of the border
and live (much more frugally) on the other. I ran into a college student
who owned her own home about two blocks from the beach. At $15,000,
there was no way she could have owned a home on this side - anywhere,
not just at the beach. As we chatted, she mentioned she'd been thinking
of opening a used baby clothing store with one of her (Mexican)
neighbors after she graduated. 

    Me, I still have a significant ... I guess you'd call it a problem
... with some Mexican national habits. They don't do infrastructure and
that alarms most Americans, I think. It APPALLS us, to be blunt. It's a
cultural difference I don't really understand. And I shall never get
past the "shrug the shoulders" habit of leaving dead animals in the
road. It about knocked me out at one point, when a dead cow was on a
main road -- for two weeks. You can imagine what the corpse looked like
by then. I finally stopped, found some "construction workers" (that
seems to be the generic term for "unemployed male" in Mexico...)  and
gave 'em $10 a piece to take it away.  

    If I had young children, I would NOT rear them there. In the overall
scheme of things, I think there is a competition amongst cultures, same
as amongst economic systems. An adult can make choices. Kids
indiscriminately suck up whatever influences them as their little brain
cells are maturing, the way a seedling sucks up nourishment or toxins in
the soil. There is a ... sense of learned helplessness in the Mexican
culture which I think wouldn't work well for most Americans' visions of
their children's futures. But at this moment, in my situation, I believe
it's a good deal for me and my family.  The Mexican government doesn't
care about non-citizen residence much, y'know. They don't have any
welfare, so foreigners are mostly good news, not bad. When a sufficient
number of Americans finally accrued in Ensenada, for instance, they
built a hospital! It raised standards for medical care throughout the
area. Which, I think, is one of the nicer things about people moving
around and settling in different places. People can get along and
improve one another's life experience. I know I've benefitted, grown
>from  learning my way around a different culture. I go at things somewhat
differently everywhere because of things I've learned in Baja.

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:29:58 -0700

Robert Morgan wrote:
> the inner city with those problems, I can certainly understand...
 
     I dunno about "inner city."  It's a sad reality that a BUNCH of
drug trafficking shootouts and gang wars have moved into the heartland -
as in: Oklahoma is a major coke distribution center! I've lived in
several big cities, San Francisco, New York, Houston. Near as I can
tell, they are ALL becoming dung heaps of drugs and crime. I mean, it's
becoming one word, "urbanviolence." Suburbs with clean, pretty streets
still present tax, filth and economic problems. I looked all over
America for somewhere to "homestead."  There were places with climates
that'd kill my Mum or present huge economic problems paying for energy -
if I could make a living. (Remember, this didn't happen yesterday -
seven years ago, we had a good ole recession going here, which has
continued in some industries to the present.) There were places with
cultures I found unpleasant. I was born near water, and such people tend
not to be happy too far away from it and that presented another
restriction. 

     Originally, I refused to put Mexico on the list of Possibles, "It's
filthy! Poverty wracked! Corrupt! You can't drink the water!"  It turned
out my impressions were formed from a face that border cities show
touristas. The sort of lifestyle that develops in a town that makes its
living off drunken sailors and students prowling for prostitutes is
different from the life it lives out of that harsh spotlight. One finds
a different culture in the rural areas away from the immediate border. 
Some older Americans have told me it reminds them of California  - 50
years ago.

---

From: [email-masked] (Victor M. Martinez)
Date: 25 Sep 1996 15:05:46 GMT

>cells are maturing, the way a seedling sucks up nourishment or toxins in

Would you prefer your children to grow up learning to glorify drugs,
violence, sex and apathy?
I think Mexico is, by far, a safer environment for rasing children.
I mean, they still have values down there, you know?

Regards.

-- 
Victor M. Martinez, Jr.           |         The University of Texas at Austin
[email-masked]             |        Department of Chemical Engineering
http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv | "What do they think I am... an engineer?"
>>>     It is a matter of intelligence, so your opinion is irrelevant     <<<

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:23:20 -0700

> I mean, they still have values down there, you know?

    There are many things one finds under the rubric "values."  Not all
of American culture presents sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll as
fashionable. As a matter of fact, though it grabs headlines to emphasize
the negative, the same American schools which produce high numbers of
thugs, addicts and illiterates also produce an overrepresentation of
Asian honors scholars. So it isn't just one institution. It's the
entirety of the life experience. As with America, Mexican culture isn't
monolithic, but just as you (and I, perhaps) have focused on some stark
realities here, there are similar stark realities in Hispanic culture. 
Factors which stand out in bas relief: I object to the sexualization of
Mexican culture and it would disturb me greatly to clash with it
constantly on behalf of my children. I also object heartily to the deep
class divisions. I prefer the American model of meritocracy. I also
prefer the uniquely American view on individual liberty, preferring it
even to the highly productive Japanese model of groupthink. (I have
cousins who grew up in Japan, so I'm aware of the sort of national
characteristics one picks up.) There are a hundred things one can put on
a list of "Stuff I'd like my family exposed to/protected from."  When we
get to bottom line time, though, we must set priorities. No one place
has everythng. It's a tradeoff. And my bottom line question was, "If a
world class struggle broke out, whose flag would you defend with your
life and your family?"  The answer is, and always has been, the United
States. Parents usually define this situation for their kids as well. 
For what it's worth, I'd not want to rear Canadians or Swedes either...
Just as some families are determined to rear Mormons or Jews, I guess
I'm determined to rear Americans.

---

From: FloralMotif <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:48:00 -0700

> that you take a hard look at what elders are facing here.
I saw some sort of televised report about this a number of years back
which stated that receiving quality medical care, a definite concern
of many senior citizens, was a definite issue in Mexico.  Where, by
and large, are Americans retiring in Mexico?

Jeanne

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:20:59 -0700

FloralMotif wrote:

> and large, are Americans retiring in Mexico?

   Well, in Baja, when a critical mass of Americans (many
seniors)developed, they built the American Hospital in Ensenada.  In the
last seven years, I'm also seeing a number of smaller clinics pop up in
Tijuana, Rosarito, etc. The bigger areas. A new, modern (by American
standards) highway was built, very much in response to the demands of
Americans, both residential and tourist, that goes right down the coast.
It is kept in good repair by the tolls, which amount to perhaps ...
$6.50 or so if you're going a good three hours south. If you're only
going a short distance, it's perhaps $2.25. You can pay in dollars for
for several hours south of the border, or pesos whatever you want/have. 
The toll also is an automatic insurance policy with hopitalization ($0
deductible) and ambulance service, etc. There's a patrol to monitor if
anybody needs towing or other help. There are reciprocal agreements all
along the way which ensure that a helicopter will transport an American
who's hurt or ill to Scripps in San Diego, if they want. That toll road
is quite central, easy to reach from almost anywhere. Emergencies use
that road. (The other is the Libertad, which has no tolls but has a lot
of potholes.) Dependig where you live, you're not more than twenty
minutes from a helipad/telephone/hospital.

    Do remember that there are big wage differences between the States
and Mexico. A middle class income can buy - on the open market - much
more. A complete medical exam, including chest x-rays, mammogram and all
blood tests costs maybe $100. Doctors and nurses aren't all Mexican and
many were trained in America or Europe anyway. Dental clinics are
beginning to offer commute service, because so many people are finding
that, even with their American insurance, they can't afford major
services. You can have a vacation for a week at a 3-star hotel and get
four crowns for the cost of ONE crown in San Diego. Some Tijuana clinics
are sending vans to pick up/deliver clients at the border. Plastic
surgery clinics have done that for a long time.

    American doctors who practice across the border find a different
professional world. Prices of medications and whatnot, rents, nurses,
other staff - are all a fraction of what they would cost in, say, Ohio.
Some like it, some don't. I myself don't like Tijuana much, it's too
raggedy, cheap looking (to someone used to American malls and
infrastructure). And much medical practice IS sorta Third World.
Americans aren't used to going to the doctor's HOUSE for treatment. But
many, many new services have sprung up in response to demand. It's not
that hard to find yourself in a situation where the doctor was trained
in Brooklyn, the dentist in Germany and the anesthesiologist in
Switzerland.  At times, I'm reminded of the time I got strep throat in
Athens (Greece, not Georgia). An Italian doctor came to the hotel and
the American embassy was called for a three way translator! <G> 

     This is a sensitive topic for most people. I've heard some
incredible, abusive stuff about Mexican medical care. There's VERY
little grounds for it, but there's some. I had a dentist once light up a
cigarette as he waited for the Novacaine to take effect! Pretty
shocking. And the building can be pretty raggedy. As I said in a
previous message, one thing I don't understand about Mexican culture is
that they seem indifferent to infrastructure. Even after decades of
neighborly tourism, most beach towns only have a "real" (paved) road
right down the middle, where the tourists go. One block away, it's dirt
and gravel again. I don't think it's just money, something else is at
work. Something cultural (IMHO). But it isn't that hard to go around it.
It's not a severe limit.  You can join a health coop for about $30 a
month. I'm not sure what the deductibles are, if there are any. Mexicans
don't like the idea of demands for cash in emergencies. Pre-need
insurance seems to be a foreign idea, brought by both resident Americans
and returning Mexican nationals (they go to medical school at American
universities very often). 

    As contact grows, it's natural for each to rub off on the other.
Personally, I think many Americans would be pleasantly surprised by the
nature of the medical services available to them in Mexico. Some of it
is like getting care in the African bush, to be sure. But a lot is also
available that's quite comparable to what we expect. The pleasantest
surprise might be that in Mexico, doctors are not considered just
technicians. It can be a shock to find a doctor who thinks it's natural
to ask all about you, your family, how your life is going, giving advice
on all sorts of things - almost like a priest or social worker. And a
nurse thinks nothing of hugging a patient who's in distress. The whole
culture is a lot more... personal. I was uncomfortable about it
sometimes, in the beginning.

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:20:21 -0700

FloralMotif wrote:

culture is a lot more... personal. I was uncomfotable about it

---

From: chita jing <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:31:36 -0700

FloralMotif wrote:

>  Where, by and large, are Americans retiring in Mexico?

    Gosh, just everywhere! Mostly on the coasts, I suppose, since that's
where they visited and got the idea of permanent residency.  Americans
do seem to have congregated in their own little communities most of the
time. The mobile home parks especially. (I should put quotes around
"mobile" - some of these ... installations are two doublewides linked
together on a deck with a satellite dish in the yard!) But many others
have bought/built all over the place, so it's hard to say. If you go to
big hotels, you'll find many oldtimer groups treating them like clubs. I
myself deliberately moved away from the beach, since I didn't want
American sailors and students using my front yard for a toilet on
weekends. I'm 12 miles away. I like getting the sea breeze without the
drunks. <GGG> 

    BTW, just as an aside, this is another cultural difference. Mexicans
are MUCH more appalled at public drunkenness than we are. They don't
laugh. They're upset and deeply. For them, it's like lewdness. As bad as
we consider indecent exposure.

---

From: [email-masked] (Randy)
Date: 27 Sep 1996 04:00:35 GMT

Great place to stay in architectually unique home in Puerto Vallarta.
Quita Maria Cortez listed in some travel books. Mexiterrenian. Loved 
my stay there.Give you some good ideas, that place. This is no spam, just a 
travel suggestion. We stayed a beautiful room that was in the movie Revenge w/ 
Costner/Quinn. Quinn was at the piano talking to Costner. We paid about $300 wk 
 in July. On the beach. only 5 rooms for rent or so.