Subject: Re: FLORENCE traffic team

From: [email-masked] (another fake realname)
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:40:58 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Italo Profeti) writes:

remote control gates can be found all over ITALY
Sinking barriers isn't a problem, the problem occurs when the go UP.

Why not just hire a few Traffic Control Agents instead, much better than a
gate that is stuck up, and if traffic is very light, they can let
traffic through.

-good luck

--
When all is said and done, more is said than done. -S. Mars.:::...
+-------------------------------^-----------------------<.(0) (-).>------------+
| [email-masked]  :|:               ///     (   *   )             |
|     [email-masked]     - | -      AMIGA  ///       |\___/|              |
 \______________________________|bababooey!_\\\///_________\___/_________nyc__/

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From: [email-masked] (George A. Gleason)
Date: 5 Aug 1995 12:57:59 GMT

Italo, I would strongly suggest against trying to keep bicycles out of your
strategic bus streets.  Bicycle riders will always find the shortest route
>from  point A to point B.  Anti-bike barriers will only lead to more
accidents, and increased traffic enforcement against bicyclists will only
lead to civil unrest.

Here in Berkeley California we have large concrete barriers to keep cars out
of certain local streets.  Bicycles go around them.  In San Francisco,
bicyclists have gotten so fed up with hazardous riding conditions that they
have a regular protest on Friday evenings where they ride in a huge crowd
and take over the main commercial street, to the degree that the police find
it more prudent to just let them have the street for a couple of hours
instead of trying to write tickets.

If you want to discourage cars, bikes are the way to go.  One thing you
could try is a major advertising campaign to associate bike riding with sex
appeal.  It's certainly true that it's easier to stop & say Hello to someone
if you're both on bikes or one is on a bike and one is on foot.  Riding a
bike gives you a chance to show off your physique or perhaps improve it
through exercise to the point where you'd want to show off.  A sleek bicycle
is more attainable for the masses than a sleek sports car, so it's
inherently democratic.  One could keep thinking of more ideas along these
lines... turn them into billboards and TV ads, and watch what happens.

In general, never try to accomplish by rules what you can accomplish by
attraction and persuasion instead.

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From: [email-masked] (Richard Brandeis)
Date: 04 Aug 95 22:42:17

Hello Italo,

In Amsterdam they have the same kind of problem.
They are now testing a kind of electronic stake called "Amsterdammertjes".

And they do also have car-traps (only busses can pass that trap) if you try to
pass them by car, you ruin your car !!

Maybe you should contact the City of Amsterdam to get more information.

 greetings,
        Richard
      [email-masked]

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From: Charles Ashman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 22:19:05 -0700

On 5 Aug 1995, George A. Gleason wrote:
 [all snipped]
George writes from Berkeley where we have auto barriers, speed bumps 
[more and more each week], a "slow street" that was straight but was made 
to function like a serpentine street also with speed bumps and some 
streets with parking excluded from one side for bike lanes. With the 
possible exception of the bike lanes all of the above are anything but 
"democratic" since they tend to disadvantage the many for the benefit of 
a few whose streets have less traffic as a result of the modifications.  
The general effect of the barriers is to concentrate traffic on fewer 
roads creating worsened conditions for the people on those streets. They 
also  cause drivers to have to make longer trips to get to some places 
thereby creating more traffic in total. The redundant grid works very 
well.  Screwed up it works poorly. The speed bumps are being challanged 
by our emergency response teams as they threaten to slow response time and 
damage their vehicles.  The "slow street" is an expensive joke. 
Our three or four means of public transportation are moderately effective. 
However if anyone in Berkeley has a life which extends beyond our city borders 
a car is a necessity. This is California after all.  The streets have to 
accomodate cars. 
By the way some of the initial barriers were moved by 
the local residents because they were a burden to them too. 
Venice is beautiful and quiet without auto traffic.  Maybe canals where the roads 
are would be good.

Charles Ashman, Berkeley

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From: [email-masked] (John Hascall)
Date: 10 Aug 1995 17:58:02 GMT

Charles Ashman  <[email-masked]> wrote:
}On 5 Aug 1995, George A. Gleason wrote:
} [all snipped]
}George writes from Berkeley where we have auto barriers, speed bumps 
}[more and more each week], a "slow street" that was straight but was made 
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
}to function like a serpentine street also with speed bumps and some 
}streets with parking excluded from one side for bike lanes. With the 
}possible exception of the bike lanes all of the above are anything but 
}"democratic" since they tend to disadvantage the many for the benefit of 
}a few whose streets have less traffic as a result of the modifications.  
}The general effect of the barriers is to concentrate traffic on fewer 
}roads creating worsened conditions for the people on those streets.

   A properly designed traffic-calming plan should endeavor to
   provide its benefits to all neighborhoods diverting through
   traffic to non-residential arterial streets.  However, it seems
   unlikely that many cities would have the resources to accomplish
   a complete plan immediately.

}                                                                    They 
}also  cause drivers to have to make longer trips to get to some places 
}thereby creating more traffic in total.

   The one study I've found (FHWA Case Study 19) which quantifies this
   found ``Average journey time for motorists increased 33 seconds''.
   Which, IMO, is for all practical purposes, approximately zero
   -- a trip could easily vary more than that by getting red or green
   at a single stoplight!

}                                        The redundant grid works very 
}well.

   It works well for arterial streets, can work well inside a
   neighborhood, it's at the boundary that it doesn't work well.

}       Screwed up it works poorly. The speed bumps are being challanged 
}by our emergency response teams as they threaten to slow response time and 
}damage their vehicles.

   Studies (in fact, one done in Berkeley) do not seem to support
   this contention, quoting FHWA Case Study 19 again ``Additional
   studies in Berkeley showed that traffic control devices had
   little or no effect on policy emergency response time.  The city
   of Palo Alto that bicycle boulevard barriers had not impaired
   police or fire emergency response.

}                        The "slow street" is an expensive joke. 

   It need not be expensive, there are cost effective methods.
   And studies have shown that reduced accident costs can more
   than offset their cost

}Our three or four means of public transportation are moderately effective. 
}However if anyone in Berkeley has a life which extends beyond our city borders 
}a car is a necessity. This is California after all.  The streets have to 
}accomodate cars. 

   Traffic-calming is not about getting rid of cars.  Traffic-calming
   is about cars being good neighbors.

}By the way some of the initial barriers were moved by 
}the local residents because they were a burden to them too. 

   A good idea poorly executed is not a bad idea.

John
-- 
John Hascall                ``An ill-chosen word is the fool's messenger.''
Moderator, comp.unix.wizards
Systems Software Engineer, ISU Comp Center + Ames, IA  50011 + 515/294-9551
<a href="http://www.cc.iastate.edu/staff/systems/john/">My Homepage</a>

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From: Brenda Jo Barrett <bbarrett@comp>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 10:36:20 -0500

On 10 Aug 1995, DEBORAH L. BELL wrote:

> BTW, this probably has nothing to do with Italo's original post.
> I recommended he check into photo radar, and consider modifying
> it to his needs, and he is looking into this.
> 
> I think this would work in Denver and other cities too.  When
> a driver is in the bus/carpool lane, the photoradar takes a
> picture, and if he is speeding or doesn't have anyone in the
> car with him (carpool lane violation) he gets a ticket in the
> mail, complete with a copy of his picture.
> 
> Damning evidence and frees up police time for felony busts.
> I like it.

It's my understanding from a German friend of mine that in Germany they 
have installed this type of system at all traffic lights to automatically 
take care of those who cruise through on red.  The ticket is printed up 
by computer and sent in the mail (with the picture, I would 
presume--don't know) and the person puts a check in the mail back to the 
appropriate agency.  Can you imagine how this would de-clutter our local 
courtrooms?