Subject: Glass Stair treads

From: "Eric" <[email-masked]>
Date: 5 Sep 96 16:42:35 GMT

Does any architects know if glass stair treads have been installed in the
US?  The treads that we are proposing would have no wire inbeded into the
glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 
Thanks...
						Eric

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From: [email-masked] (Robert Anderson)
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:00:54 -0500

> glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

Even if this could be acheived structurally (and I suspect it could), the
slipperiness of glass could be a real hazard. I doubt you'd get a building
official to approve such a detail. And anything you could use to provide
traction would detract from transparency. 

Maybe some things just aren't meant to be done.

BTW, if you DO get a bldg official to approve this, and your client just
insists on it, I recommend you get your client to write you a
'indemnification and hold harmless' letter. Think long and hard about
this.

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From: [email-masked] (Maura Gatensby)
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 08:21:42 GMT

>glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

Look up the work of Eva Jiricna, an architect who has done a number of
them in Europe, mostly in the UK. She has done some work in the  US,
but I don't know if it includes glass stairs. 

M a u r a

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From: [email-masked] (Alan Horowitz)
Date: 8 Sep 1996 21:56:35 -0400

There ought to be a special place in hell, right next to the ovens, for
all these architects who are more concerned with winning artsy-fartsy
design prizes or getting their names in trendy magazines, than in getting
the mechanicals perfected.

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From: [email-masked] (Steve Maher)
Date: 9 Sep 1996 21:09:51 GMT

>glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

Have you given any thought to using Lexan instead of glass.  It is not supposed to scratch and it 
seems you would be able to carve grooves for traction.

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From: Chad Berreau <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:29:46 -0500

> traction would detract from transparency.

Perhaps you could toy a little more with the transparency effect. Cut
grooves along the upperface of the glass tread.  Insert a material that
will provide for traction.  If the material were a noticably deep and
wide it would appear that they were floating in space.  It would add to
the allusion and provide some focus for the user.

> Maybe some things just aren't meant to be done.

But that shouldn't mean that some things shouldn't be (re)considered. 
If we don't we might be missing out on a great opportunity.

Besides if all things were done identically, then would anyone really
notice the environment around them.

> 'indemnification and hold harmless' letter. Think long and hard about

Better yet, design it right in the first place and this legal mumbo
jumbo would not be needed.  

cheers,

chad

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From: [email-masked] (Martin)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:21:44 GMT

>M a u r a 

I've seen a photograph of a spiral staircase in the US by an architect
named  Carpenter.

--
Martin

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From: "dinoffs" <[email-masked]>
Date: 10 Sep 1996 21:50:45 GMT

>>glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

Why would any architect who cares the slightest for those who use their
buildings design a transparent set of steps?  

Stair users need to be able to accurately identify where to place their
feet on a stair.  If they can't they will fall.  This is pretty basic stuff
just like not making slippery stairs.

This is the kind of gratuitous and ill conceived design that gives the
profession a bad name.  
-- 
Larry Dinoff   AIA                                    [email-masked]
Lancaster, PA

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From: [email-masked] (Alan Walker)
Date: 11 Sep 1996 00:06:35 GMT

>glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

I am not an architect or builder, but I think it would be very difficult 
to get a suspended in air look.  There would be too many reflections and 
refractions.  Nvertheless, it should be possible to make it pretty 
goddam scary for those who don't like heights.  BTW, there is a building 
in Melbourne with a swimming pool way up on the nth floor.  The end of 
the pool cantilevers out over the street, and it is transparent.  
Swimming along looking at the road 100 ft below is REALLY weird.

AW

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From: [email-masked] (george p swanton)
Date: 13 Sep 1996 10:53:48 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, Dan Bollinger  <[email-masked]> wrote:
>Alan Horowitz wrote:
>Alan;
>Now that you have brought up your concern, what suggestions do you have 
>to make glass stair treads work?  How can you make them successful?
>

Make them out of something else. I really dont mean this as a slam but
I really think you'ld be better off. The state library here installed 
a rubberized non-skid mat on the main stairs. It was medium brown with
very little contrast. From above the visual seperation between treads
was so diminished as to elicit numerous comments from the patrons that
the stair made them uncomfortable. They have since installed a contrasting
strip of material near the nosing which enhances the contrast and makes
it less unsettling to descend. Can you imagine how these people would 
have felt if the treads had been transparent? 

You might consider a compromise - what if you were to fashion the 
treads of some fairly standard, opaque material with good visual 
contrast but make the stringers transparent? I cant speak to the
structural side of this but I would think it might provide something
of the effect you desire of the stair 'floating' while avoiding
the major safety problems associated with a transparent tread.

Might this be viable?

gps

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From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 13 Sep 1996 12:49:43 -0400

george p swanton <[email-masked]> wrote:

>>to make glass stair treads work?
 
>Make them out of something else...

>From above the visual seperation between treads was so diminished as to
>elicit numerous comments from the patrons that the stair made them
>uncomfortable. They have since installed a contrasting strip of material
>near the nosing which enhances the contrast and makes it less unsettling
>to descend. Can you imagine how these people would have felt if the treads
>had been transparent? 

Seems to me architects waste time and money and space fussing over stairs. 

I say use a cheap and fast DC winch, with a trickle-charged battery.

And smart controls that lower a person quickly when it feels a tug in
the upper position, and raise a person quickly when it feels a tug in
the lower position, and move it fast from floor to floor when called with
a clap or a whistle.

And regenerative braking on the way down.

Nick

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From: "Geert Maene" <[email-masked]>
Date: 13 Sep 1996 20:11:06 GMT

> >glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 
I'm a belgian stair constructor an we made a lot af stairs white glas.
You can use layered glas of 20mm thick.
The new flamisch parlement in Brussels has a whole floor in glas. It is
also
possible to screen the pvb-films with a logo.

Good luck.

Geert Maene.

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From: [email-masked] (Michael O'Donnell)
Date: 11 Sep 1996 19:14:44 GMT

In article <01bb9b49$5c258020$LocalHost@tech-1>, "Eric"
<[email-masked]> wrote:

> Does any architect know if glass stair treads have been installed in the

I don't know of any glass stairs, but I did design a glass floor once for
an architect in the US. Here are some things to consider:

Will any engineer design such a thing? It took me a while to find one,
and it was strictly 'off the record'. We used a safety factor of x8, which
came to 800 psf. We used a thick laminated tempered glass, fully
supported  and cushioned on 4 sides. This is not a foolproof solution,
however.

Will a glass manufacturer _knowingly_ sell material for this use? Will a
contractor install it? Any guarantees?

Will persons using the stairs be wearing spikes. Probably not a good idea.
Will they know this?

Speaking of lawsuits, does your liability carrier know what you're up to?

'Hold harmless and indemnify' clauses are a first step (you might add 'and
defend'), but this may extend only as far as your client while he or she
actually owns the property. Statutory law varies from state to state,
appellate rulings ditto, and in my experience most lawyers don't have a
clue unless they're expert in construction law.

Check out anti-skid coatings.

Read 'The Glass Mountain' in Donald Barthelme's _City Life_.

Good Luck. We certainly don't want to encourage chickenheartedness in
stair climbing!

Michael

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From: Dan Bollinger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:42:35 -0700

Alan;

Dan Bollinger
Industrial Designer

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From: [email-masked] (Martin)
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:49:15 GMT

>This is the kind of gratuitous and ill conceived design that gives the

I think the original poster asked about glass stairs, and a 'suspended
in the air' look. No mention of the word 'TRANSPARENT'.
Glass and transparent are not sinonymous. Actually, the few glass
stairs that i saw (in photographs only) were translucent opaque glass.
cheers,

p.s.: its transparent walls thats giving the profession the bad name
:-) <g>

--
Martin

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From: [email-masked] (Simon Hayman)
Date: 12 Sep 1996 05:19:56 GMT

>the allusion and provide some focus for the user.
Whoah!
A great way to create stress concentrations in the glass!
-- 
Department Architectural & Design Science
University of Sydney, G04
NSW  2006
Australia
Vox: 61 2 351 5603  Fax: 61 2 351 3031
"These things too shall pass away"

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From: Peter Wilson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:26:10 -0700

Robert Anderson wrote:
> this.The Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto has a spiral staircase with glass treads in its new wing.
I am sure that legal implications are different in Canada but the building codes are probably just as tough.
Good luck

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From: [email-masked] (Denis L Cauvier)
Date: 12 Sep 1996 23:17:38 GMT

> glass, which we are hoping will provide the suspended in air look. 

Want me to look into asking Canadian contracters?

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From: Ken Gorski <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:47:07 -0600

I really don't know what the problem is regarding glass treads..We have 
used them in stair runs..space frames spanning 12'x36', solid glass, 
glass block...go back to your architectural classes in studying strength 
of materials regarding, glass in compression and tension...piece of cake 
buddy..also light them from behind, under etc...if your client can 
afford it try sold glass, or glass thats security tested, pref. frosted 
for use...the options are unlimited eric...good luck...ken arch.,tx reg.

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From: Dan & Mary Piette <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:08:39 +0800

Robert Anderson wrote:
> Does any architects know if glass stair treads have been installed in the US?.....

Robert,

The house I'm living in here in Singapore uses something that could be
useful to you. We have suspended glass "bridges" to connect one side of
our townhouse, or shophouse, as it's called in Asia to the other. These
bridges are custom fabricated steel grids, painted, that provide a
framework into which double thickness etched safety glass is laid. This
glass has a sandwich of plastic film between two sheets. Foam tape
cushions footsteps across the span of the bridge. We all negotiate this
pretty easily. But it has to be cleaned daily. The glass is smooth, not
textured. The fire inspector required special fire sensors to be
installed to pass this design. But is wonderful at night and during the
day when light passes into the center of this tall thin house.

I'm glad to see your interesting design question posted on this group. I
hope to see more like it.

Cheers,
Mary Piette

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From: Roving Reporter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:29:54 -0400

Why don't you just make a solid stairway of glass bricks and put rubber
treads on the part people walk on. I shudder to imagine small children, for
example, falling on glass and needing the glass shards taken out of their
faces.
***************************************************
* Therese Shellabarger  -  [email-masked] *
* http://www.concentric.net/~tlshell/             *
***************************************************

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From: [email-masked] (Alan Horowitz)
Date: 14 Sep 1996 23:37:33 -0400

>to make glass stair treads work?  How can you make them successful?

  Add features that make them visible in the dark, non-slippery, not
easily broken. In other words, not like glass.

Dan, where are you experiencing a market demand for stairs made out of
frangible, invisible, slippery materials?

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From: Ken Gorski <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:15:09 -0600

Hi Eric...

Eric we use glass block for space frame flooring systems, glass tile in 
floors, canterlevered installations for floors, stairs, usw, over 
fountains with water flows,..if i can help you with a specific situation 
you can send a fax with a sketch and I would be glad to mark up or 
comment about it..remembering that glass is great in compression and 
not tension strengths..early archtitecture studies...ken   
fax 915.585.8382

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From: [email-masked] (george p swanton)
Date: 16 Sep 1996 08:47:18 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>,

>>Make them out of something else...

[blah blah blah]

>And regenerative braking on the way down.

I have to admit Nick, I _did_ laugh at that one!

gps

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