Subject: Source for Glycol ?

From: Tom Leit <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:39:07 -0500

I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
house in Wisconsin.  We bought the house but got no information on
the system which is probably about 10 years old now.  The pump went out
and replacing it caused us to lose most of the liquid in the heat
exchanger loop.  Can anybody help?
E-mail any information to   [email-masked]
Thank You    Tom Leit

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From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 12 Aug 1996 05:07:19 -0400

Tom Leit  <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol...

Try asking someone at a food processing plant. I used to get 40 plastic
55 gallon drums per month from a local turkey packing plant, and about half
of them used to contain this "edible antifreeze."

Nick

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From: [email-masked] (Andreas Haffner)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:42:00 GMT

Tom Leit <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol....

I might be wrong, but isn't this just the stuff being used to prevent your car
engine cooling fluid to freeze?

Andreas Haffner

---------------------------------------------
This is my own opinion!.......?.......I think
Homepage..........http://home.sn.no/~ahaffner

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From: "Duane C. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:37:16 -0700

Andreas Haffner wrote:
> I might be wrong, but isn't this just the stuff being used to 
> prevent your car engine cooling fluid to freeze?

Generally auto antifreeze is ethyline glycol. 

There has been recently some environmentally friendly auto 
antifreezes that are based on propylene glycol. These are
less poisenous.

All auto antifreezes have leak inhibiters and anticorosion 
compounds. They are generally mixed 50/50 by volume with water.

Another antifreeze is the stuff that is put in recreational 
vehicles. I think this is somewhat diluted as it is used without
mixing.

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.
White Bear Lake, MN, USA 55110-3364
(612)635-5065 w
(612)426-4766 h
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/3027/

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From: [email-masked] (G McCurdy)
Date: 13 Aug 1996 13:44:47 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>E-mail any information to   [email-masked]
Tom,
  Propylene Glycol should be readily available from a local industrial 
chemical supplier.  Particularly DOW chemicals sells propylene glycol under 
the name of DOWFROST and DOWTHERM HD.  Van Waters & Rogers in Canada is a 
good supplier.
  Try looking for DOW chemicals in your local listing or other industrial 
chemical suppliers.  If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 
cheap automotive radiator fluid, its basically the same stuff, although the 
DOWTHERM chemicals operate slightly better in the temperature region that the 
solar system uses.

Hope this helps

Glen McCurdy
Solar Calorimetry Laboratory
Queen's University
[email-masked]

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From: Laurie Neverman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:31:26 -0700

Duane C. Johnson wrote:
> >How much propylene glycol do you need?  We've got about 20,000 gallons 
available for sale from the Packerland Solar System.

Email or call for more information.
-- 
********************************************************************
Laurie Neverman              Public Energy Systems
email:  [email-masked]       URL:  http://netnet.net/~pes/
voice:  414-465-6563         fax:  414-465-9894
********************************************************************
Energy Alternatives and More -- Focusing on Applied Solar Technology

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From: [email-masked] (G McCurdy)
Date: 14 Aug 1996 20:19:56 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>of them used to contain this "edible antifreeze."
I just double checked on a few details which I missed in my previous post 
which are kind of important.  First, the DOW propolene glycol for use in 
solar hot water systems (among other things) is sold under the brand 
name of DOWFROST HD.
  Second, avoid using automobile radiator fluid if at all possible.  Most 
anti-freeze is ETHELYNE glycol not PROPYLENE glycol.  The important 
difference is that propylene glycol is relatively non-toxic where ethylene 
is very toxic.

Sorry if this caused any confusion...
Glen McCurdy

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From: "Duane C. Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:10:50 -0700

> Sorry if this caused any confusion...

I agree with you in wanting to use propylene glycol. But. There are some
new environmentally friendly auto antifreezes that use propylene glycol.
There is an added benifit of having anticorrosion and leak sealing 
properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

-- 
CUL8ER

Duane C. Johnson
Ziggy
WA0VBE
Red Rock Energy
1825 Florence St.

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From: [email-masked] (Bill Randle)
Date: 15 Aug 1996 12:28:53 -0700

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (G McCurdy) writes:
|> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
|> >
|> >I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  It was used as a
|> >heat-exchanger liquid in a rooftop solar hot-water preheater on our
|> >Thank You    Tom Leit
|> Tom,
|>   Propylene Glycol should be readily available from a local industrial 
|> chemical supplier.  Particularly DOW chemicals sells propylene glycol under 
|> the name of DOWFROST and DOWTHERM HD.  Van Waters & Rogers in Canada is a 
|> good supplier.
|>   Try looking for DOW chemicals in your local listing or other industrial 
|> chemical suppliers.  If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 
|> cheap automotive radiator fluid, its basically the same stuff, although the 
|> DOWTHERM chemicals operate slightly better in the temperature region that the 
|> solar system uses.

I would *not* use normal radiator anti-freeze in your system.  An earlier
comment to check out a local RV dealer is right-on. The anti-freeze used
for RV plumbing is propylene glycol - which is what you want.
The good thing about propylene glycol is that it is non-toxic. If some should
leak out of your system it won't kill your pets should they accidentally
come in contact or drink some of it.

-- 
	-Bill Randle
	Tektronix, Inc.
	[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 15 Aug 1996 23:08:24 GMT

[email-masked] (G McCurdy) wrote:
>>I am looking for a source for propylene glycol.  
>> ... snip ...
>Tom,
>chemical supplier.  
.. snip ...

Thanks, I also appreciate that pointer (I've been dreaming of building a
solar hot water heater for years, and one of these I'm going to actually 
do it (I hope :) ).

If all else fails you can probably fill your system with 

>From  my reading, using car antifreeze is a very bad idea.  I think that 
Ethylene Glycol, which can kill if consumed in any significant quantity.
If there were ever a leak in your hot water heating system, you might
end up consuming this stuff, with at the very least unhealthy results.

I'm no chemist -- that's just what I read.  More knowledgable people
please comment.

--
Bert Menkveld

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From: Rich Lobrovich <[email-masked]>
Date: 17 Aug 1996 01:43:00 GMT

On the west coast I have purchased 55 Gallon drums from local gasoline
wholesalers ie Chevron Union Oil
For smaller quant try local air conditioningparts houses that carry
water treatment chemicals like Calgon.
Calgon should be able to provide you with specfic gravity charts
if you want to look at freeze points and heat transfer changes compared 
to h2o .

Rich Lob

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From: Albrecht Kadlec <[email-masked]>
Date: 19 Aug 1996 15:41:21 +0200

> properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

YES, BUT
. where do this properties come from, and are these chemicals toxic?
. are these anti-corrodants, etc useful. i.e: do they actually prolong
	the life of the solar system?
. where does corrosion come from in a closed system, filled with
	propylene glycol and water?  The amount of minerals and the pH
	of the water shouldn't matter much for a closed system.
	(I assume refills will occur seldom - less than once per year)

I always use ethanol/water/dish washing liquid as a windscreen
cleaning fluid and it's less than half the price of the commercial 
"windscreen cleaner", so I suspect it's the same for 
propylene glycol/water vs. "Auto/Solar Antifreeze".

hope someone can clear the muddy waters of commerce.

albrecht

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From: [email-masked] (Solardc)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:10:28 -0400

In article <[email-masked]>, Tom Leit <[email-masked]>
writes:

>the system which is probably about 10 years old now

Does the system have a single or double wall exchanger? Most immersed heat
exchangers are single wall. If you have a double wall, you can use
ethylene glycol. If not, or you are unsure, you can get Propylene glycol 
(make sure you get the corrosion inhibitors!) from the following: 1) In
auto supply stores, look for "Sierra" brand antifreeze 2) From plumbing
supply outlets, you can ask for hi-temp non-toxic (Propylene glycol).
Hercules "CryoTek" is a popular brand on the east coast. Make sure you get
heating system antifreeze, which has the inhibitors. Camper antifreeze
does not have it and will break down quickly in your HW system. You an get
the plain stuff and add some DiPotassium Phosphate, which is a non-toxic
buffering and anti-corrosion agent. 

Used glycols probably do not have adequate inhibitors, either.

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc
800 DCSOLAR Fax 888DCSOLAR
http://home.aol.com/solardc

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From: [email-masked] (Solardc)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 05:22:03 -0400

>> properties that are usefull in solar collectors.

See my post on some commercially available PG a/f's. Leak sealers may void
pump mfrs. warrentees of their water lubricated pumps. 
>. where do this properties come from, and are these chemicals toxic?
Not in PG. Make sure this is DiPotassium Phosphate.
>	the life of the solar system? 

Absolutely. You must keep your pH above 6. Actually about 7.5 to 8 is
ideal. the phosphate is a buffering agent which keeps your system alkaline
and thus free of corrosion (actually electrolytic action between iron and
copper components which accelerates if pH drops below 6)
>	of the water shouldn't matter much for a closed system.
If pH goes below 6, which can happen at high temps or in the presence of
oxygen, the iron dissolves away, causing leaks in the expansion tanks or
pumps.  
>	(I assume refills will occur seldom - less than once per year)

Check for pH annually for heating systems (which get real hot in summer)
or every other year in DHW systems. As long as you keep the pH up, you
never need to change the fluid. If you go away in the summer, have someone
come over your house and use up the hot water or cover your panels; your
antifreeze will thank you.
>propylene glycol/water vs. "Auto/Solar Antifreeze".
Yeah if you wanna buy it by the 55 gal drum (which I do, being in the
solar biz).
>hope someone can clear the muddy waters of commerce.
Most importantly, keep that a/f clear by keeping up the pH!

Steve Pitney
Alternate Energy Inc