Subject: Re: winter heating (for those in colder climates)

From: [email-masked] (Ron Bean)
Date: 4 Oct 1996 15:28:29 -0500

[email-masked] (Jerry Chase) writes:
 
>For those who haven't figured it out, Nick Pine is the type of
>"expert" who would posit an exact mathmatical answer to the
>question "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"

   Does Nick Pine claim to be an "expert"? He tends to raise interesting
questions and leave the value of his "answers" as an excercise for the
reader. Anyone who takes his ramblings as "advice" is missing the point.
Anyone who dismisses them out of hand is probably missing something also.

>While Nick has a little knowledge and a good handle on math, he flails
>about the newsgroups like a child with a chainsaw, in his attempts to
>impress others with his skill at using tools beyond his abilities.

   I don't get the impression that he's trying to impress anyone, but he
doesn't have any sympathy for the humor-impaired.

   (I do wish he'd put his footnotes at the end of the article instead of
in the middle of his sentences.) 

>I try to ignore Mr. Pine unless he quotes one of my posts out of
>context.

  Chill out. If people aren't fooled by him quoting someone else out of
context, it won't be any different when he's quoting you out of context.

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Chase)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 04:55:06 GMT

[email-masked] (Ron Bean) wrote:

>   Does Nick Pine claim to be an "expert"? 

Unfortunately, he does.  Do an alta-vista search for his "test for a
true energy expert" to get a short course on someone off on an ego
trip.

>He tends to raise interesting
>reader. 

Many of those questions are gleaned from other people's posts.  I
don't object, but don't forget to give credit where credit is due.

>Anyone who takes his ramblings as "advice" is missing the point.

I made the same mistake about seriously thinking about his points at
first.  Upon close examination, I found many of them flawed.

For example, Nick believes in "wind energy concentrators" (big funnels
in front of windmills).  After I experimented with trying to make a
functioning one these and failed, I researched the problem and found
valid reasons why they don't work, based in simple classical physics.

I notified Nick of my failure and suggested some relevent theorems to
him of why the concept wouldn't work as he had intuited, yet he
continued to insist, in the face of clear evidence, that he had to be
correct, referring to some research by Grumann as his proof.

Not trusting my own judgement as being the word from "on high", (Read
"able and willing to admit errors")  I contacted Mike Bergey, (I trust
the name needs no further qualification) who answered me that "wind
concentrators were the 800 mpg caburators of the alt.energy field",
and "the concentrator that Grumann designed was ineffective."  'Nuff
said. (And so much for Nick's qualifications to conduct a test for a
"true" energy expert.)

I could continue with other areas where Nick's knowledge is not what
it seems at first glance, but the point has been made.

>doesn't have any sympathy for the humor-impaired.

I stand by my statement.

Nick doesn't have sympathy for _anyone_ who disagrees with his point
of view.  Unfortunately for Nick, _I_ don't appreciate anyone that
goes out of their way to "put down" others (myself aside, I've seen
him try to "trash" many others).  

His statements, like "You are fortunate you don't have knowledge
(about energy) like some others." are, sad to say, a true reflection
of his attitude. That _isn't_ humor.  It is pure "I'm better than
everyone else in this group" thinking, which is b_______, and has no
place in any group trying to expose new ideas and discuss them in a
civilized manner. 

>context, it won't be any different when he's quoting you out of context.

I "chill" when Nick behaves like a human, and not a know-it-all
without a clue.  You'll notice I did let him quote out of context in
making his first comments.  It was only when he started with his usual
BS that I responded.  If there weren't newcomers to the groups, I
probably would have even let that slide.

BTW, You are welcome to do an av search on me if you think I lack am
"humor-impaired"  or lack the ability to laugh at my own mistakes.

Just for fun, then do one on Mr. Pine.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, and when Nick goes away from pontification
and moves on to honest attempts to support and help others in his
posts, like many others with less "intellect" and more of what he
looks down on as "practical knowledge", I'll gladly change my attitude
towards him.  

Until then, as Ayn Rand used to say, he'd better "check his premises".

"Now go away, or I will taunt you a second time." <g> (Monty Python
again.)

---

From: "Mr. Sorta Grumpy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 08:19:40 -0400

This thread on heating your house with rabbits reminds me of a book on 
permaculture that I saw once that depicted a chicken coop being kept over 
a carp pond.  The droppings would fall into the pond, feeding the fish, 
which later became dinner.  I remember from reading a student's paper 
that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

I'm not sure what ate the carp droppings.  At the risk of waxing too 
philosophical, it would seem that using the methods of permaculture would 
be very frugal. THis is not, however, an invitation for an argument 
between environmentalists and their opposites.

I've noticed the tone of this group changing recently too.  It's gone 
>from  being somewhat apolitical and pragmatic to sort of unfocused.  I 
believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 
of this group.

Mark Crane
University of Louisville
http://www.louisville.edu/~mecran01
[email-masked]
____________________________________________________________

The point of education in a democracy is to discover
as many ways of seeing as possible, not to rest secure
in the perspective we find the easiest and most comfortable
or the perspective of those currently in power.

--James Berlin, in "The Subversions of the Portfolio"
_____________________________________________________________

---

From: [email-masked] (Joseph Scott Stuart)
Date: 07 Oct 1996 14:35:30 GMT

>From  the BBC in the last few days: Another use for chicken (and
turkey) droppings is, apparently, to burn them to produce
electricity.  There is a power plant somewhere in Britain doing this.

scott

---

From: [email-masked] (L.A. Osolin)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 14:09:14 -0800

In article
<[email-masked]>, "Mr.

> that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

There was a TV news broadcast (last month I belive) from BCTV in
Vancouver, B.C. Canada
which showed the progress of an experiment of feeding chicken manure to
cattle. It was
successful in that it was providing a good food supplement and giving
commercial egg
producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.

---

From: Brian K Petroski <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:45:18 -0500

> that this was also practiced in parts of Vietnam.

     Thank you for reminding me of this.  I do recall seeing something
about this years ago.  I had already planned to have a few chickens and an
aquaculture pond but had forgotten about this simple method of linking
them together. 

> I'm not sure what ate the carp droppings.  At the risk of waxing too 

     In actuallity, I don't think the carp even eat the chicken 
droppings.  I believe how it works is that the droppings of both carp and 
chickens promote the growth of algea which encourages zoolplankton and 
insect larva which the carp eat.

> believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 

     I haven't been in this group very long, but I am certainly more 
interested in the pragmatic applications of how to build systems myself 
than about the politics.

			    Brian Petroski
			Just your stereotypical
			      polysexual,
			       bisexual
			    solitary pagan
		       from St. Paul, Minnesota

---

From: [email-masked] (Jerry Chase)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 00:44:14 GMT

>producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.

I hesitate to think where they are planning to get rid of the cattle
manure... <g>

My grandfather had a farm that I visited regularly as a child.  Cattle
are singularly stupid animals.  This sounds like something a cow would
enjoy.

---

From: [email-masked] (Guy Macon)
Date: 5 Oct 1996 15:53:54 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, 
[email-masked] said...
>believe in politics, but I also appreciate the pragmatic, community feel 

I think I know the reason.

Your message was crossposted to:

Newsgroups: 
misc.consumers.frugal-living
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
alt.energy.renewable
alt.solar.thermal

These are all different communities.  By crossposting to them all,
you get unfocused discussions.  I read sci.engr.heat-vent-ac, and
it is *very* focused, except when diluted by crossposts.

Try this: trim your "Newsgroups:" line to just the newsgroup you read,
then consider those posts that are not crossposted.  As a group, you
will find the uncrossposted subset of messages to be the kind you like.
If you can convince others to trim newsgroups, your newsgroup will
become more enjoyable to read.

The purpose of different newsgroups is to focus discussion.

Excessive crossposting destroys that purpose.

---

From: "Andrew J. Doherty" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 07:48:12 GMT

> producers a way to dispose of unwanted manure. Also the cattle liked it.
 But Remember BSE in cattle - a disease supposedly passed from one
animal (sheep) to another (cow) through providing that animal with a
diet it was not meant to be feeding on? If it teaches us nothing else,
it teaches us that we do not know enough about how pathogenic
organism(s) cross species barriers. Cows are herbivores - let them stay
as herbivores. As another mesage inthis thread mentioned, chicken manure
can be burnt as a fuel for generating electricity. In this country, one
power plant is going through the planning process. I think people would
find that a more acceptable use of chicken manure than feeding to
cattle.

TTFN
-- 
***********************************************
   Dr Andrew Doherty                          
   Department of Anatomy                   
   School of Medical Sciences             
   University Walk                               
   Bristol                                            
   UK
   BS8 1TD

   e-mail  [email-masked]

************************************************