Subject: Re: Solar Pool Heating

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 4 Oct 1996 12:03:55 -0400

Andrew McKegney <[email-masked]> drones on:
 
>>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
>>>>>concerns) I am perplexed by the lack of acknowledgment of commercially
>>>>>available solar pool heating products.

I hereby acknowledge that commercially available pool heating products are
too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.
 
>>Still perplexed? Pool heaters aren't that bad, just too expensive, but pool
>>insulation sucks. Perhaps you have not noticed this. So here's a clue :-)
>>Heating a swimming pool with existing technology is like bailing a boat
>>with no bottom. You "solar pool heating professionals" need to get your
>>heads out of the sand and act more sensibly and responsibly on behalf of
>>your clients, and look at this as more of a system. Energy in, and energy
>>out, with a lot more emphasis needed on the out part, at the moment. 
 
>We don't build pools. A professional solar installer tries to get the
>pool owner to use a solar blanket.

Good idea. Now suppose you are a dermatologist. A patient comes in to your
office who has just been run over by a car, and he is bleeding profusely from
his missing arm. He asks for help with his itchy scalp. What do you do?

Pat him on the back, give him a prescription for some ointment, and
send him on his way? Is that professional? I know, I know, what can
you do if people do not want or will not accept the right kind of help?
You tell them what they need, and they ignore you. So maybe you end up
thinking they don't really need what you think they need, or that what
you have to sell today is really what they need, which is not true.

HVAC criminals act the same way.

This needs more common sense, leadership and education, along with a bigger 
picture, less specialization, and more high-school physics and arithmetic.

>>It is irresponsible to sell people heaters, when what they need is
>>insulation. It is irresponsible to use lots of fuel to heat a pool,
>>when one could use use far less fuel and pollute the atmosphere far
>>less with a little more imagination and insulation.
 
>You might consider that solar energy isn't a fuel in the conventional
>sense. There is no pollution associated with the use of a solar system.

Sure. That's obvious. What should also be obvious, but isn't, is that pools 
need more insulation, somehow. New pools built differently, retrofits, truly
effective thermal covers, structures to enclose pools, etc. It seems foolish
to attach expensive pool heaters to such miserably-insulated pools, from an
engineering point of view. If pools were better insulated, it would seem less
foolish to use existing pool heaters, and fewer square feet of them. You
might call this a rational engineering point of view. Not necessarily how
everyone else thinks.

Another reason to avoid using expensive pool heaters is that energy is so
cheap in this country. But making an inexpensive plastic film pool heater
on a roof seems OK, from that point of view. A square foot of ANY sort of
solar collector can only collect the heat equivalent of a gallon or two
of oil per year, so if oil and gas are cheap, solar collectors need to be
cheap to compete with them economically, no? Or, they need to serve more
than one purpose, like a transparent roof or transparent siding for a house,
since houses need roofs and siding anyway, or a sunspace that adds some
daytime floorspace and storage space and perhaps a place to grow things
to a house. Or a place to put a hot tub or a swimming pool.
 
>>>>These things seem like expensive overkill to me, for pool heating. 
>>>>Sure they work, but why spend $5/ft^2 when you can make a swimming
>>>>pool collector for 50 cents/ft^2? And why just extend the season a bit
>>>>when you can make something that works year-round. And where are the
>>>>R10 commercially-available pool covers?
 
>Let's see a "year-round" solar collector for 50 cents/ft^2.

Yeah, let's see that, Andy :-)

>One that isn't going to freeze,

Drain the system back into the pool at night. 

>that's going to last for 15 years+ with no maintenance,

Sounds good to me, but is that necessary? Many homeowners mow lawns, paint,
clean out gutters, wash dishes, mop floors, etc. (not me of course.)

>that doesn't look like garbage on a roof ......

Chacun a ses ordures. But how do you know what this will look like?
It ain't been designed yet. Architects and others have ways of making
lots of things look pretty, and there are many different architectural
forms with equivalent engineering performance. 

Let's see. Perhaps you would say that a black roof is not inherently ugly. 
Putting a layer of clear plastic over that doesn't change the appearance
much. Now we seem to be talking about how to keep the clear plastic from
flapping in the wind, right? If you were a piece of plastic film, lying flat
on a roof, with another flat piece of plastic right underneath, and you were
recently wet underneath, would you want to flap in the wind? Maybe.

What would keep you from doing so? Vacuum? The wet adhesive force?
Seems worth a try. Perhaps we are overcomplicating this. I think there
are lots of ways to solve this problem, some being more aesthetically-
acceptable than others. And why such emphasis on aesthetics, anyhow?
Iraquis are dying because of the way we use energy in this country.

>>Still wondering... It seems stupid to sell people pool heaters to extend
>>the season a few weeks, when with a fairly tiny amount of engineering and
>>arithmetic, you can make solar-heated pools that are usable all year. 
 
>Yeah, in theory. Try it sometime!

I'd love to, but I don't have a pool, and I'm not in that business. You are. 

>>>>Solar pool heating should be extremely easy, with a built-in thermal mass
>>>>and low water temperatures and high air temperatures and insolation.
>>>>So why aren't more people doing it?
 
>Because people get misinformation about solar from people who know
>nothing about what really works. From people like you.

I disagree. I think this business is fucked-up.

>>>I have always recommended conservation before insolation (insulation
>>>before sunshine) with any solar product...
 
>>Nice platitude. So why aren't you making an R10 pool cover? 
 
>It's not a platitude, it's the truth.

Too bad people don't follow your recommendation, huh?

>BTW I don't have the millions to risk in developing a product
>pool owners wouldn't buy. 

I don't think it would take millions. I think it might take 2 weeks,
depending on what you mean by "it." And I think people would happily 
buy "it" if "it" were reasonably priced and performed well, and you
put "it" in an alternative energy catalog like Jade Mountain's
([email-masked].) Or sold kits to Home Depot.

>>>...in the real world, people with swimming pools tend to prefer easy
>>>solutions...

What is an easy solution?

Is it easy to put a $900 30' wide x 48' long plastic film greenhouse over an
existing pool, and hinge a 300 pound 24' x 36' cover made with $300 worth of
beadboard and 2x4's to a pipe along the 36' north edge, and haul the cover up
to a 45 degree angle automatically with a $200 DC winch when the sun shines
and the pool needs heat, in December? I think so. Should the south glazing
be translucent polyethylene film that needs recycling every 3-5 years, at a
cost of $60, or very clear single layer polycarbonate that lasts for 20 or 30
years, and costs $1000? Should people grow food and flowers and sit outside
next to their swimming pools in December? Would the second one of these things
be cheaper or easier to build? I think so, the 10th? I think so. How many 
people would like to own one? How will we know until we build one? You say
you know already, but people don't have choices like these now. 

>>>As you acknowledge, you do not have a swimming pool, and, from the
>>>sounds of it have never built a real solar pool heating system, I
>>>would suggest that you are ignorant of the practicallities of
>>>operating a pool and a solar pool heating system.
 
>>True. And I suggest you are know too much of these "practicallities." 
>>Also, it appears you can't spell. Not a good sign for a solar physicist.
 
>You would suggest that too much knowledge is a bad thing? Interesting
>comment from someone in an educational institute.

I'm suggesting that some of what you "know" is not true. 
And I am not presently institutionalized :-)

>>>You should be aware that even if you use a solar cover all the time,
>>>you are still going to have to heat the pool - ideally with a solar system.
 
>>Oh, I'm aware of that. Can we use numbers here? I mean, are you capable of
>>doing that sort of arithmetic, Andy, as a self-styled "solar professional"?
>>Or are you very confused about solar arithmetic and high school physics?
>>We need fewer "solar professionals" like that...
 
>No, Only confused by selective readers. ie: those who ingore facts
>that support their arguements.

I wonder what you mean by that. How do you ingore a fact?
That might work better than these discussions...

>>Now suppose the cover and heater are the same... :-)
 
>You mean like existing solar bubble balnkets????

Yes, during the daytime. Altho something more vertical would work a lot better
in wintertime. But we need something that is a lot more insulating at night.

>>>Solar systems have to be large because pools require a large
>>>amount of heat - that is just a matter of physics.
 
>>Sure. I wonder if you are familiar with this "matter of physics."
>>Few people are, I've noticed. Let's talk a lot more about that...
 
>Anytime.

OK. Give me some numbers. How much heat does a swimming pool need?

>>>Solar pool heating is not new, commercial products have been around
>>>for at least 25 years, and they work well
 
>>Bullshit. Pool insulation is rotten.
 
>What's pool insulation got to do with solar pool heating? We're
>talking about solar panels here.

You may have hit on the problem here.

>>>and last a long time (15+ years) if desighned and installed properly -
>>>with little or no maintenance!!!!!!!
 
>>So why aren't more people doing it? Something to do with money?
 
>Of course.

OK. What do we do about that? Make solar heaters with rooftop plastic films,
ie make them cheaper? Add value to the _system_, by making it possible to
swim all year? Reduce the cost with a more balanced _system_, with more
insulation and less solar heating?

>>...poorly engineered products? Like blue-colored "solar pool blankets"? :-)
 
>Solar blankets ARE NOT solar pool heaters.

True, in the usual sense. But why are they blue?
They would let in more sun if they were clear.

>>Or piss-poor insulating pool covers? Would you insulate your house with
>>swimming pool cover material? No way... Just how gullible do you think
>>people are, Andy, when you imply these are "well-engineered products"?
 
>You don't seem to know the distinction between solar blankets and
>solar panels!!!

Untrue. Should I add some exclamation points!!! ? :-)

>>They are expensive kludges, that hardly seem engineered at all to me. If
>>that's all you have to sell, too bad. But existing pool covers are no good,
>>and saying they are won't make them so. That is a lie. Do you ever get
>>angry when people lie to you? Should professionals lie? Should they know
>>the basic science of their profession, or just sell things?
 
>Yes I get angry when people lie to me. I also get angry when people
>don't listen.

Me too. And should professionals lie? And should they know
the basic science of their profession, or just sell things?

>Existing pool covers are much much better than nothing!

Absolutely.

>Right now that is the alternative.

You mean, like, this afternoon....?

>>>Try that with loose plastic sheeting on a roof!!!!!!
 
I would if I had a swimming pool, perhaps this afternoon. Maybe I should
put one up in my attic. No, too heavy... It's 100.6 F up there now, and 
47.7 F outside. I'm thinking of closing some attic windows.

>>Try what? Who said the plastic was "loose"? We don't want it to blow away,
>>or suffer from wind fatigue. How can we avoid that? There must be 50 simple
>>ways. Sven Tjernagel of Mechanicsburg, PA has built several thousand flexible
>>rooftop water heaters like these, over the last 20 years. Are you looking for
>>problems or looking for solutions?
 
>Why isn't Sven's product being sold to heat pools? 
>I've never heard of it, and I would like to.

I don't know the answer to that question. I suspect they are being used for
some swimming pool heating applications now. Chlorine compatibility may be a
problem. A heat exchanger might be needed with an EPDM collector, but that's
probably not a big deal. Run a few $4 solid PVC pipes around the pool maybe.
Or make a concentric tube heat exchanger out of some of the plumbing. Do
SolaRoll collectors degrade from pool chlorine? Is that why they wear out?
We might use oxygenation, or Aqua-Air's silver-copper ion system to reduce
or eliminate chlorine. Environmentalists and fish don't like chlorine.

Sven is now definitely out of that business, and mostly building water tanks
for fire protection systems now. But many of those several thousand solar
heating systems are still in use at hotels and laundrys and so on. He aimed
at commercial and industrial installations, some of them having thousands of
square feet of collectors. In his system, the EPDM rubber needed replacing 
every 7 or 8 years, because it was a trickle-down system rather than filled
with water, with dry hot spots. That also meant he needed more water flow than
normally needed, I think. And I suppose there were stagnation problems in some
installations. He didn't intall these systems on roofs with a pitch more than
1:1 either, as I recall. He said he aimed at businesses than homeowners
because businesses were used to the idea of maintenance, and didn't mind
replacing the rubber every so often, but homeowners expected systems to last
at least 20 years, and didn't want to do any maintenance at all. Does that
make sense? I'm sure it does to you.

I just tried to call Sven, and got his answering machine. Perhaps you'd
like to talk with him: 

Sven Tjernagel Solar Systems
477 Woodcrest Road
Mechanicsburg, PA 17055
(717) 761-5858, -8951 fax

He's an interesting and practical person who knows a lot about solar heating,
including radiant floor heating and hot air distribution with duct heat 
exchangers. Good practical stuff. But like many people who really know how
to do solar heating, he's out of that business. He site-built heat storage
tanks with EPDM rubber liners inside plywood boxes until UL stopped approving
site-built tanks (will CSA accept them?), then switched to a nicer design,
something like a tall circular sheet metal swimming pool, lined with foam
and EPDM. He stopped installing unpressurized hot water tanks upstairs when
people complained about "rats in the walls," ie hot water cavitation in
the vertical pipes... 

>>>The status quo works, and has been arrived at from trial and error in the
>>>solar industry. I'm all for inovation, but not just for inovations' sake.
>
>>There's something to be said for the status quo, and you have said it,
>>but it does not seem to me that you are "all for innovation."

I wonder how long you will parrot back this status-quo defense. 

>>>Prove to me it works and lasts as long or longer, has less
>>>impact on the environment and I'll go with it.
 
>>That's not my job, Andy. I'm not the "solar pool heating professional."
 
>No, but you are advising people who are looking for practical solar
>.solutions.

Sure.

>You owe it to them to tell them what is available in the market,

Not if they are not practical solar solutions.

>I've just noticed that your e-mail address origionates from an .edu
>location.

Just now, huh?

>I must conclude from this and your attitude that you are an
>"Ivory tower idiot" - long on the theoretical and ignorant of the practical.

OK. Go ahead. Conclude.

>You seem to be blaming the solar industry for the sins of the
>pool-building industry.

Not exactly. Not even close, actually.

>The two are not related.

I wouldn't say that at all. Would they were moreso.

>If you care to take a close look, you'll find that pool campanies usually
>don't sell solar systems -

Interesting. Why not, exactly? 

>solar companies do.

Now why is that... Could it be that pool companies know that solar heating
their existing pools is foolish? Unlike your customers, after you have
handcuffed them to chairs and given them your professional advice?

>Pool companies - from what I've seen- don't give two hoots what it costs
>a pool owner to operate their pools. They just want to sell the pool and 
>the chemicals that go with it.

OK for the moment. But I think that might change, with a few good examples.

>(The chemicals are another environmental horror story)

That might be improved a lot with aeration, a fountain here or a waterfall
there, and by letting some water flow through the pool, if heating water or
water itself were not so expensive. One might use rain, for hot tubs, and  
5 parts per _billion_ of copper ion in water will stop algae. Throw some
pennies in the filter?

>Solar is a nuisance to them -they'd rather you bought a gas heater (from them)
>and run it on "high" all the time. (that way you'll need more pool chemicals)

I think this can change, if a few people do things right.  

>Any reputable solar company, and there are many, will insist that
>before you use a solar system, you use a solar blanket. The only solar
>blankets available are really just evapouration retarders, not
>insulation blankets.(And the best ones are transparent/translucent to
>let the sun into the pool)

Right.

>There is a very simple reason for this. No one has figured out a way
>to cover an 800 Sq. ft. kidney shaped pool with an insulating blanket
>that can be removed and replaced in 2 minutes (that doesn't cost over $300)

I think you may be defining the problem too narrowly here, but perhaps we
need to do more figuring out. Tiny cold bubbles are excellent insulators. 
Greenhouse people have been experimenting with them since 1975, and they
have a harder task than swimming pool coverers. Can we have bubbles on top
of the water itself, somehow, under a plastic film to stop evaporation? 
Polyethylene macrospheres that are filtered out when we want to swim?

How about just deflating a polyethylene film pillow full of tiny soap bubbles
before swimming, pumping it out and letting it sink to the bottom? Or doing
that with a weighted neutrally-bouyant Styrofoam cover, by making it slightly
heavier than the pool, and lowering it with a few ropes or letting some water 
fill a few cavities rather than air? This is not rocket science.

>These are parameters that are set by the end user.

I think you may be defining the problem too narrowly here.
Many end-users would be delighted to swim in December.....

>As I have already mentioned, even the existing easy-to-use, not unsightly,
>cheap, solar bubble blankets are difficult to sell 

Awww... Too bad... Poor Andy...

>(and get the customers to use) (this is true even when you point out
>they will need a solar system twice as large if they don't use a blanket!!)

And all this is for what? Another month or so of pool use?

>The average consumer can be a pretty dumb animal !

Especially when bamboozled by "professionals."

>They will buy for their convienence and their pocket-book, but
>not for the environment or energy efficiency (if it means more
>than a 3 year payback).

How about for December swimming, or a nice warm place to sit outdoors
during the day, or to grow food or flowers?

>This is the real market. Rant and rave all you wish about what people
>"should" do.

I know, I know, they should buy your solar pool covers and heaters.

>They do what they do, and will continue to do so. 

Forever and ever, unchanging unto the last syllable of recorded time...

>I consider it a small victory to turn people from natural gas, oil or
>electricity to solar for heating their pools.

I do too. But we look for easy victories, right? Like drunks who look for
wallets under lamposts at night, because there is not so dark there.  

>I think it is a crime to heat a pool with a fossil or nuclear (fission)
>fuel and damage the environment in the process.

No argument there, and fusion is very far away. But it's also a crime 
to push pool heaters when what people need is pool insulation.

>Until some company invents and perfects the R10 pool blanket -and I
>don't think that it will happen in my lifetime-

Perhaps because in your world, nothing  ever  changes.

>the best solution is still the manufactured solar product,
>installed by solar professionals.

Ah yes, those nice shiny expensive bailing buckets for bottomless boats,
installed by crack solar professionals. "Here you are M'am. We are so happy
to meet your pool heating needs."

>The payback on these systems vs. installing and
>operating a conventional natural gas heater is typically 2-3 years.

Almost as short as the payback for closing the windows of a house
in December, vs buying more gas to heat it...

>If you wish to complain about my spelling, go ahead - I don't have a
>spell-checker

I don't either. 

>and I consider it very petty of you to comment on it -
>I'd say it shows a pretty arrogant attitude.

Okokok. I won't say another word about your spelling.
I will let this aspect of your professioalism speak for itself.

>Get some real-world experience with pool heating -solar or other -
>PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.

No. Now would you like to talk about solar arithmetic? :-)

Nick

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:58:12 GMT

Will Stewart <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I'd guess you are somewhat locked into the status quo, like many others.

>Which means "you don't agree with everything that Nick Pine decries".

>Cheers,

>William R. Stewart
>Member American Solar Energy Society
>Member Electrical Vehical Association of America
>"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

Thanks for the vote of support.

In these posts I've felt like I'm battling someone who isn't really
looking for practical answers. I would appear he has a plastic film
fixation. I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of
applications, but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar
needs is absurd.

And, yes, solar can be cheaper...... if you do it yourself. But... in
all likelyhood it will be much less reliable, much less efficient and
last for a much shorter time.

There are many good solar products on the market, and many dedicated
and experienced solar companies out there. It is still a buyer beware
market, and the best defense is to become informed and educated about
solar before looking to buy something. I would hope that this
newsgroup strives to achieve that purpose for its' readers. I know
that's what I'm trying to do.

Andrew McKegney
Member SESCI, CANSIA, NSPI of Canada

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 16:43:47 GMT

[email-masked] (Nick Pine) wrote:

>Andrew McKegney <[email-masked]> wrote:

You might consider that solar energy isn't a fuel in the conventional
sense. There is no pollution associated with the use of a solar
system.

>>>R10 commercially-available pool covers?

Let's see a "year-round" solar collector for 50 cents/ft^2. One that
isn't going to freeze, that's going to last for 15 years+ with no
maintenance, that doesn't look like garbage on a roof ......

>>>and low water temps and high air temperatures and insolation.

>Still wondering...

>Nice platitude. So why aren't you making an R10 pool cover? 

It's not a platitude, it's the truth. BTW I don't have the millions to
risk in developing a product pool owners wouldn't buy. 

>>but in the real world, people with swimming pools tend to prefer easy
>>solutions...

>Like bombing Iraq? :-)

Only in America - - "Pity"

 

Anytime.

>So why aren't more people doing it? Could it have something to do with money?

Of course.
>Or poorly engineered products? Like blue-colored "solar pool blankets"? :-)

Yes I get angry when people lie to me. I also get angry when people
don't listen. Existing pool covers are much much better than nothing!
Right now that is the alternative.

>problems or looking for solutions?

Why isn't Sven's product being sold to heat pools? I've never heard of
it, and I would like to.

>>The status quo works, and has been arrived at from trial and error in
>>the solar industry. I'm all for inovation, but not just for inovations' sake.

No, but you are advising people who are looking for practical solar
solutions. You owe it to them to tell them what is available in the
market, rather than simply foisting your own untried and unproven
ideas on them as the "best" way to go.
>Nick

Nick , you are really starting to behave like an A______.

I've just noticed that your e-mail address origionates from an .edu
location. I must conclude from this and your attitude that you are an
"Ivory tower idiot" - long on the theoretical and ignorant of the
practical.

You seem to be blaming the solar industry for the sins of the
pool-building industry. The two are not related. If you care to take a
close look, you'll find that pool campanies usually don't sell solar
systems - solar companies do. Pool companies - from what I've seen-
don't give two hoots what it costs a pool owner to operate their
pools. They just want to sell the pool and the chemicals that go with
it. (The chemicals are another environmental horror story) Solar is a
nuisance to them -they'd rather you bought a gas heater (from them)
and run it on "high" all the time. (that way you'll need more pool
chemicals)

Any reputable solar company, and there are many, will insist that
before you use a solar system, you use a solar blanket. The only solar
blankets available are really just evapouration retarders, not
insulation blankets.(And the best ones are transparent/translucent to
let the sun into the pool) There is a very simple reason for this. No
one has figured out a way to cover an 800 Sq. ft. kidney shaped pool
with an insulating blanket that can be removed and replaced in 2
minutes (that doesn't cost over $300) These are parameters that are
set by the end user. As I have already mentioned, even the existing
easy-to-use, not unsightly, cheap, solar bubble blankets are difficult
to sell (and get the customers to use) (this is true even when you
point out they will need a solar system twice as large if they don't
use a blanket!!)

The average consumer can be a pretty dumb animal ! They will buy for
their convienence and their pocket-book, but not for the environment
or  energy efficiency (if it means more than a 3 year payback).

This is the real market. Rant and rave all you wish about what people
"should" do. They do what they do, and will continue to do so. I
consider it a small victory to turn people from natural gas, oil or
electricity to solar for heating their pools. I think it is a crime to
heat a pool with a fossil or nuclear (fission) fuel and damage the
environment in the process.

Until some company invents and perfects the R10 pool blanket -and I
don't think that it will happen in my lifetime- the best solution is
still the manufactured solar product, installed by solar
professionals. The payback on these systems vs. installing and
operating a conventional natural gas heater is typically 2-3 years.

If you wish to complain about my spelling, go ahead - I don't have a
spell-checker and I consider it very petty of you to comment on it -
I'd say it shows a pretty arrogant attitude. Get some real-world
experience with  pool heating -solar or other - PLEASE before advising
pool owners on what they can do.

Thankyou.

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 4 Oct 1996 07:37:02 -0400

Andrew McKegney <[email-masked]> wrote:
 
>looking for practical answers.

And I feel I'm talking with someone who has no practical answers to sell.

>I would appear he has a plastic film fixation.

I don't see that in my DSM IV.

>I'm sure plastic film works in a limited number of applications,

Not so limited, I think. There is this very large and successful greenhouse
industry that seems to be mostly ignored by the solar heating industry. Why? 

Last year I got 4 or 5 quotes on residential sunspaces, and the prices varied
>from  $50-150/ft^2, while commercial plastic film greenhouses cost less than
$1/ft^2, and work almost as efficiently as solar heaters. This difference 
is very remarkable to me. If commerical growers had to use residential
sunspaces, they would be out of business in a year. I think the fact that
people heat houses with residential sunspaces is economically crippling
the solar house heating industry, don't you?

Pools seem different. The problem there seems to be the imbalance between
too little insulation and too much emphasis on pool heating, like bailing
a boat with big holes in the bottom. Perhaps pool owners are so rich,
they don't care about the money it takes to heat a pool. Available products
are not suitable for pool heating, as a system. Is that because of a lack
of industrial leadership, or a lack of market demand, or both? Or is it
just momentum and ignorance. Somebody should look at swimming pool heating
_systems_, a subject which includes insulation (surprise.)

Steve Baer recently wrote that the greatest discovery of solar heating
investigators has been that if you use lots and lots of insulation, you
need very little heat for a house, from the sun or any other source :-)

Pool people do not seem to have discovered that yet. Steve has also
written that, in a way, he enjoys repeating obvious truths to people
who won't listen. I don't.

>but to suggest it is the panacea for all of our solar needs is absurd.

Nobody suggested that.

>that's what I'm trying to do.

That's one purpose I had in mind when I created this newsgroup.

Another is to focus on basics, and cut through the hype.

Nick

---

From: Will Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 08:28:42 -0400

> too expensive, and the charlatans who sell them ignore pool insulation.

Then time's a-wastin'!  Get your product prototyped and then
mass-produced, then you will make a fortune and you won't have to bore
us with these pointless arguments about the cheapest possible pool
heaters.  People with pools aren't normally interested in old tires and
boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.

I surprised you haven't championed earthships, yet.

> No. 

Typical.

-- 
William R. Stewart
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Member American Solar Energy Society
Member Electrical Vehicle Association of America
"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 5 Oct 1996 09:33:12 -0400

The sea is potentially a source of vast amounts of electrical energy,
     as well as haddock. Scientists predict that some day, possibly as early
     as next week, whole cities will be powered by the sea. The key will be
     gigantic undersea electric turbines, whose blades will be turned by
     the relentless, powerful motion of lobsters walking along the sea bed.
     If you live near the sea and own a gigantic electric turbine, you can 
     harness this power today. The trick is to make sure your turbine is
     parallel with the prevailing lobster motion.

         from _The Taming of the Screw: Several Million Homeowners' 
	       Problems Sidestepped_, by Dave Barry

Moving from the Ludicrous to the Impractical...

>and the pool needs heat, in December?

We might try a smaller version of this first, with some EPDM rubber draped
over some strawbales inside a quonset-hut-like structure, or more easily
recyclable haybales, if we are surrounded by horses, which (the bales) are
about 3' long and 16" square. Stack up 24 of them like this in 3 layers of 8
to make a 56" square x 4' deep hot tub, 88" square on the outside?

             ~12'                  We would need
..............................        a 16'x16' piece of vinyl or EPDM rubber
.              .             .        24 bales
.              .             .        12'x50' greenhouse UV poly film
.              .             .        6 12' pressure treated 2x4s
. . . . .  b a l e  b a l e b         2 4x8 sheets of 2" Styrofoam
.         b    .             a        20 12' 1x3s  
.         a    .             l ~12'   some screws and bolts
.         l    .hot tub      e        a pulley
. . . . . e . . . . . . . .  b        some rope
.         b    .             a        etc
.         a    .             l
.         l    .             e
......... e  b a l e  b a l e

               .
          .    c    .                 The cover, shown in the raised position
       .          c    .              might be painted white on the bottom.
    .                c   .    ~10'    It might be 8'x8'x2" thick, weighing
  .                     c  .          20 pounds, and it might be lifted 
 .                         c.         with a small 12 VDC reversible motor,
.         b floating bubble  b        eg a used windshield wiper motor,
.         a  pack cover...   a        especially if it had a counterweight,
.         l                  l        to collect sun or keep some plants
..........e..................e        from freezing at night, automatically.

How much sideways water load do the bales have to hold in, at the bottom?
A foot of water weighs 0.43 psi, so the wall of the tub, 2' deep on average, 
pushes sideways at 0.86 psi, so if the sides are held in every foot along
the perimeter of the tub, each tie has to hold 12"x48"x0.86 = 500 pounds.
Some ground stakes and/or tensioned 1/4" dacron rope every foot, running
across the bottom, holding together the pressure-treated 2x4 frame flat on
the ground that surrounds the bales and some 1x3s on edge every 2', tucked 
inside a flat 1x3 frame at the top of the tub?  

I've built curved half-bows like these with 2 12' 1x3s bent into an 8' radius,
held together with deck screws and 1x3 spacer blocks, purlins or ridgepole,
every 2'. A little chicken wire or stucco mesh on each side of the spacer
blocks would keep them from slipping and make the bows stronger.

On an average December day, where I live, about 10'x12'x900 = 108K Btu of sun
would fall into this structure, about one gallon of oil's worth, or 30% more
with a shallow frozen reflecting pool to the south, made from another piece
of EPDM rubber draped over a perimeter earth berm. One layer of poly film
has an R-value of about 0.8, and there's about 500 ft^2 of it here, so the
average daytime winter air temperature inside the structure might be about
43 F + 108K/(6hrx500ft^2/R0.8) = 72 F. 

If the bubble pack pool cover transmits 80% of the sun into the water, and
the white paint under the rigid cover reflects another 80%, we might have 
16 ft^2 x 900 Btu x 0.8 x 0.8 = 9K Btu falling into the hot tub on an average
6 hour day, with 6 x (T-72) x 16 ft^2/R1 Btu leaking out, for a water temp
T of about 72 + 9K/(6x16) = 166 F. Heh.

The tub would hold about 76 cubic feet of water, weighing about 5000 lb,
and all buttoned up, with about 100 ft^2 of R50 sides and 50 ft^2 of R10
cover, starting at 110 F, it might lose about 24(110-36)(2+5) = 12K Btu
on an average cloudy day, cooling to 110-12K/5K = 108 F.

It would be nice if the structure leaked a bit, with most of the rainwater
>from  the "roof" ending up in the flower bed in the front, and some of it
flowing through the hot tub to end up there as well.

Or... suppose the cover and heater were the same, like a "solar pool cover,"
during the daytime, but a lot more insulating at night. This hot tub inside
the enclosure would want the north poly film painted white, to reflect more
sun down into the tub.  
 
How much heat does a swimming pool need? Most of the loss is through the
cover. A 24x36' pool with an R10 cover might need 24(76F-36F)24x36/R10
= 83K Btu/day of solar heat in December where I live, the amount of sun that
falls on 83 ft^2 of vertical surface or 160 ft^2 of horizontal surface,
less than 20% of the pool cover area.

How about just deflating a polyethylene film pillow full of tiny soap bubbles
before swimming, pumping it out and letting it sink to the bottom?

Like this?                    poly pillow
                          rr   .   .   .   rr   pool rim
   air pump===hose====>   .                 .
                               . water .  <-- floating screen on a soapy water
                          s        .        s          puddle in the bottom  
                          s    detail A     s          of the poly pillow
                          s                 s
			  s                 s   pool sides
			     bottom of pool                 ^  ^  s is some
                                                            |  |  window 
Perhaps 3 modes, for a swimming pool?                bubbles|  |  screen
                                                            |2"|
      day: pillow full of air                       F s s s hose s s s Float
      night: pillow full of bubbles      detail A:       soapy water
      swimming: pillow on the bottom.               bottom of poly pillow

For the hot tub, it seems simpler to do this with a Styrofoam cover, making
it slightly heavier than the water, and lowering it by letting some water
fill a few cavities rather than air. Assuming it's 4' square inside, to make
the numbers easier, the 16 ft^2 x 2" thick Styrofoam weighs little, and
displaces about 10 pounds of water per square foot when submerged. Concrete
and stone weigh about 150 lb/ft^2 in air, or 86 lb/ft^3 when submerged. So
we need about 10/86x12" = 1.4" of concrete or stone or gravel or something
on top of the Styrofoam cover to hold it underwater. Lay some polypropylene
twine down on the cover, recycled from haybales, and place 1.4" of concrete
on top of it? Or glue a 2" thick x 4" wide Styrofoam edge around the top,
and pour some round pebbles on top? To collect sun effectively in this case,
we need a single layer of clear plastic film on top of the hot tub, to
prevent evaporation loss with the cover submerged. 

We might have 16' of 6" poly duct (eg unvented V4-6 at 22 cents per linear
foot from D & L Growers at (800) 732-3509) around the perimeter, underneath,
heat-sealed at the ends, so we can float the cover by slightly inflating the
tubing at night, with an aquarium pump. Allowing a little air to escape
underwater would probably keep the tub cleaner. Hmmm. Tropical fish?

We might use 4x8 cover modules for a full-sized pool, with 12" poly duct
underneath, inflated to 4" depth, and attach them together so these tippy
boats could support people on "pool patios," which might be fun, at parties.

Nick

---

From: [email-masked] (Andy Burgess)
Date: 5 Oct 1996 10:24:21 -0700

>boards holding down massive sheets of plastic on their roofs.

Regarding solar heating of pools and houses I would estimate that of the
people in the US:

90% Couldn't care less
9%  Will use off the shelf solar products with guarantees installed by
    licensed contractors
1%  Will develop their own systems.

Andrew, Will and company cater to the middle group. Nick to the last
group.

Funny thing is, people like Andrew and Will were saying the same thing
about any kind of solar heating a few decades ago because there weren't
any products. The viewpoint is summarized as: "If I can't buy it off 
the shelf then I don't want it"

People like Nick are where the new ideas and products come from. Thanks
to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products 
to sell today.

I appreciate the information that all parties post to this newsgroup.
Will and Andrew for information about what products are available, how
they work, and the techniques to install them. Nick for new ideas and 
examples of how to do the necessary calculations.

Thanks to all of you.

-- 
Best regards,
Andy Burgess
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Seamus)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 18:26:53 GMT

>> >>>>>As a solar professional for 18 years (motivated by environmental
....................etc
>> >PLEASE before advising pool owners on what they can do.
......etc
>"The truth will set you free:  - J.C.

Quite so.This seems to be a hot topic at the moment and needlessly so.
There should be no dispute that solar heating of pools can be done
nicely on a shoestring, and there are several rival methods to do it.
All have merit.....probably.

We have been heating our swimming pool and hot tub by mainly solar for
four years now with a home build maintenance free system. It runs
automatically.......nearly.

The heavy oil boiler is still in place and is used as a top up when we
want it for our convenience and pleasure, but we probably could do
without it with a little more effort.......

We save 75% of the original heating fuel bill annually from before the
system came online.

We have achieved at least a double payback on the build cost, and
enjoy a longer season with the pool in use. This was made easier by
retro fitting pool wall and hall floor insulation before the last
season. This comprised of lightweight concretion made from recycled
packaging ground into poly beads, sand , gravel and stabilised with
very little cement. Damp proof courses were built in and drainage too.
Simple, and it all works beautifully.

If a crud like me can do it then so can you. Quit the *what where and
how* and just discuss the *when*.

I should have added that this is set up in Ireland where the weather
is not Californian.

We have the benefit of high oil prices to help us on. I understand
that the US is crippled by unrealistically low prices for energy.

Good luck, Jim.

---

From: [email-masked] (SMBKK)
Date: 4 Oct 1996 22:52:25 -0400

[email-masked]

One might be prone to think, given the amount of " space" that this issue
has taken, that the world starts and stops around heated pools. And people
believe Architects are elitists!

---

From: Will Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 20:35:42 -0400

> Andrew, Will and company cater to the middle group. Nick to the last

I don't cater to one group over another; I simply stated that most
people wouldn't want old tires and boards on their roof holding down
massive sheets of plastic.  I'm all for innovation, but against Nick's
denigration of persons who don't worship his extremely cheap systems. 
Note that he does not live in a extremely cheap house.

> the shelf then I don't want it"

I've made my own solar products, such as a solar window heater out of
reclaimed wood, a discarded patio door, and scrap copper.  I'm all for
inexpensive, do-it-yourself solar projects; however, I just don't insist
on shoving the concept down everyone's throat.
He's even called people "criminals" for not using the cheapest possible
materials.

> to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products

Hardly.  #1, I don't sell solar products.  #2, Nick goes to great
lengths to present his ideas, though he often makes mistakes in the
order of magnitudes, or completely ignores significant aspects while
gloating over his prowness.  I once saw him take a stab at some HVAC
calculations, call it "HVAC craftsmanship" and then ask someone what
"PD" (pressure drop) stood for.

I have an electro-mechanical engineering degree and background,
including coursework in the application of HVAC and solar engineering. 
I've watched Nick propose "quizzes" of peoples' knowledge, just to glean
their formulas.

The new ideas come from persons who apply real knowledge in producing
prototypes, testing them, and then improving them.  By no means are all
of Nick's ideas screwball, but innovation is "95% perspiration, 5%
inspiration".

I admire his enthusiasm, but he must realize that other people have
ideas and have applied them, too, with a diversity of experiences.  It's
great to sit back with a catalog and design a system, and another to see
the results of such a design.

Ask him about empirical data on a solar closet; he mentioned a 4'x4' box
that didn't seem to behave according to his predictions and then
declared that the insulation must be R-5, even though he built it to
R-20.  Any solar closets?  Anywhere?

Hot air is great, but best when part of a solar heating system.  "Build
it and they will come".

Best regards,

---

From: [email-masked] (Sylvan Butler)
Date: 6 Oct 1996 23:20:17 GMT

>of Nick's ideas screwball, but innovation is "95% perspiration, 5%

Interesting choice of a quote...  Thomas Edison, who, if you will recall,
was constantly coming up with ideas widely critisized as screwball or
worse.  Many of them didn't pan out.  The few that did are greatly
appreciated.  If even 99% of what Nick comes up with is garbage, the
remaining 1% is appreciated.

Of course, we do need your side also Will...  Can't let any crazy
impractical geniuses have free run of the place, even with a good idea!

sdb

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 16:45:21 GMT

>the solar house heating industry, don't you?

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "solar house heating
industry". There is also no need for one if houses were built better -
as you point out Steve Baer points out later in this post.

>_systems_, a subject which includes insulation (surprise.)

Pool owners tend to be on the better end of the financial scale, but
pools are a middle class phenom, which is why there are so many pools.
Available products are exactly suitable for heating pools. Solar pool
heaters when used in conjunction with a solar pool balnket can replace
the need for a gas or oil pool heater for the season 95% of pool
owners want. Most pool owners do not want to use their pools when the
air temperature makes being outside -wet and mostly naked -
uncomfortable. If people desire that experience they will install a
spa or hot tub and keep it at 104 F. (Which perhaps I have to point
out to you is impractical for a full-sized pool)

>need very little heat for a house, from the sun or any other source :-)

I have lived in my retrofitted R-2000 house for the last 10 years.
Super-insulated, and reasonalbly airtight 1800 ft^2, for $250 worth of
natural gas per winter season. Nice large insulated (glass) sunspace
and windows on the South-West side. 

>Another is to focus on basics, and cut through the hype.

Perhaps focus on the facts. There are more people out there looking
for products and services than people who want to build it themselves.
Both approachs should be encouraged.

Some of my best customers are those who showed the interest and energy
to build a do-it-yourself system. Once they had tasted what solar had
the potential to do, and realized they didn't have the skills, time or
experience to do-it-themselves, they contacted professionals in the
field and purchased a system from them.

Andrew McKegney

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 18:49:48 GMT

>Nick

96:10:07

I can see that this is a complete waste of my time. You are not
interested in providing people with information about practical (read
currently available) solar systems. You only wish to promote you're
untried & unproven concepts (using plastic films for everything) as
being better than everything else.

You have completely ignored the fact that solar companies do not
design, sell or install swimming pools. You have no comprehension of
the swimming pool marketplace. Yet, you feel you can speak with
authority about solar pool heating in the real world!

You've never owned a pool, you've never built a solar pool heater,
you've acknowledged you are ignorant of the practicalities of
operating a pool. Yet, you feel you can advise pool owners.

You seem to think that you can pull some formulae from a text and
figure out what can be done in the real world. Your ideas are not
inovative, they are ill-conceived. You have no grasp of the real
limitations of working with pools, pool owners, or for that matter
pool-owners' houses.

People within the pool industry are constantly inventing and marketing
new products. These are people who know the limitations and are trying
to stretch them. Yes, eventually, there may come a time when an R-10
pool blanket is a real, marketable, item. But as I said, it's not
likely to be in my lifetime.

To wildly proclaim that people should't heat their pools with
manuafactured solar products because they should be saving heat in
their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.

Solar pool heating is the most cost-effective type of solar in North
America. It has the potential to save millions of dollars worth of
energy per year, and prevent the creation of millions of tons of
pollution per year. Intead of promoting it you want to spit on it
because YOU feel that it's too expensive.

The market decides what is too expensive. A two to three payback is
very reasonable. If you have a better ,cheaper, product bring it to
the market, it would be welcome by both consumers and dealers.

To conclude, put-up or shut-up.

Respectfully

Andrew McKegney C.E.T.
President. Solar Evaluation Services Inc.
20 year member Solar Energy Society of Canada Inc.
Past Member International Solar Energy Society
Member National Spa & Pool Institute of Canada
Member Canadian Solar Industries Association

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 19:10:57 GMT

>90% Couldn't care less

Pool owners care if they heat their pools

I would suggest that ratios here are more like :

1% couldn't care less
94 % care, but don't know what to do
3.5 % will use off-the-shelf solar
1.5 % will do-it-themselves, first, and then switch to manufactured
products

>the shelf then I don't want it"

Two decades ago I was trying to build my own solar pool heating
systems. They worked, sort-of. I then worked for two solar equipment
manufacturers. I am familiar with the processes of invention and
inovation.

>to people like him a few decades ago, Will and Andrew have solar products 

Nicks' ideas aren't new. They are ill-conceived, based upon his lack
of knowledge of the concept, the materials, the swimming pool, the
pool owner and the market in general.

The best people to develop new products are those who have worked in
the industry for some time and know its' parameters.

Thanks for the thanks.

Andrew McKegney

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 8 Oct 1996 07:31:42 -0400

>I can see that this is a complete waste of my time.

I didn't think you would like to talk about solar arithmetic,
Although you did write that you would like to, "anytime."

>You are not interested in providing people with information...

I'll ignore these untruths.

>figure out what can be done in the real world.

Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

>their pools by using NON-EXISTANT R-10 pool covers is stupid.

I agree. Altho I've never done that, wildly or otherwise. 

>energy per year...

And it has been and has had for umpteen years.
So why don't people do more of it? 

>To conclude, put-up or shut-up.

Thanks for saying "respectfully." 

>Member Canadian Solar Industries Association

Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 

Nick

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 8 Oct 1996 10:33:35 -0400

Andrew McKegney <[email-masked]> wrote:
 
>As far as I know, there is no such thing as a "solar house heating industry".

I think there is. Many people want to heat their houses with the sun, even
today, and turn to architects for passive solar houses, or energy-efficient
houses. There are many ways to make a house energy efficient. For instance,
don't put a heater inside. Or a woodstove, or a heat pump. Nothing except
solar heating, with a COP of 1,000 or more.

>There is also no need for one if houses were built better -

I disagree. Perhaps you would say there would be no need for sailboats, 
if motorboats were efficient enough. There's something special about
just using powerful natural forces with smart low-power controls and
well-designed minimal elegant structures.

>>Pools seem different...

>Available products are exactly suitable for heating pools.

But not for insulating them, which is a part of the heating job,
as you point out with houses.

>Most pool owners do not want to use their pools when the
>air temperature makes being outside -wet and mostly naked - uncomfortable.

Japanese people do. Russians do. Icelanders do. Albertans do. Germans do.
Nobody wanted to use the telephone, in 1880.

>If people desire that experience they will install a spa or hot tub
>and keep it at 104 F.

That's the simplest choice, among available alternatives. 

>Which perhaps I have to point out to you is impractical for a full-sized pool

Bucky Fuller was carefully taught in school that people can never fly,
with or without airplanes... So, is a 104 F pool impractical in December? 
What makes it impractical. You have my plans and numbers. Where's the
problem? Let's fix it together. In rhetoric, an assertion demands no more
than a counterassertion. Where are your numbers?

>and windows on the South-West side. 

Nice, but why do you have a gas heater?
How much did that house cost?
How do you make hot water?

>There are more people out there looking for products and services
>than people who want to build it themselves.

Sure.

>Both approachs should be encouraged.

I don't think people should be further encouraged to buy these bailing
buckets for bottomless boats. It gives solar heating a bad name. Makes
people who are interested in solar heating look like idiots, or worse.

>field and purchased a system from them.

No comment. 

Nick

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew McKegney)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 20:38:27 GMT

>Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

Yes totally. It doesn't work that way . If you think it does you are
either in denial or are completely deluded.

>I agree. 

>So why don't people do more of it? 

As I have said because of ignorant bad-mouthing by people like you.
You have never explained your pathalogical hatred of manufactured
solar pool products. They work, they have been around for years, they
are very durable, and they are cost-effective.

>Thanks for saying "respectfully." 

And you still haven't put up your fictional solar system or imaginary
blanket.

>Oh, you're an ignorant CANADIAN :-) 

And I guess that makes you an ignorant American, Congratulations.

Andrew McKegney

---

From: [email-masked] (Howard Walker)
Date: 9 Oct 1996 03:27:45 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
>Member SESCI, CANSIA, NSPI of Canada

I purchased 3 used semi-flexible rubberized panels (4 X 10)for my pool and 
did the plumbing myself.  Total material expense was around $500.  Half the 
price of a 100K Btu propane pool heater.  Most of the practical info was 
obtained from the local library (a small one) and the most helpful info came 
>from  some of the books Ted Lucas wrote on solar energy.
On a nice sunny summer's day here in Virginia, I can raise the temperature of 
my 14,000 gallon in ground by 8 to 10 degrees.  Well worth the effort and 
cost.

Howard Walker

---

From: Will Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 07:44:44 -0400

> Although you did write that you would like to, "anytime."

You were simply changing the subject away from the painfully obvious.

> I'll ignore these untruths.

The following is *very* true from my observations of your posts;

  "You only wish to promote your untried & unproven concepts 
  (using plastic films for everything) as being better than 
  everything else."
 
> Why yes, I do :-) How bizarre, eh?

Without any experience in those situations.  Ever hear of an armchair
quarterback?
 
> I agree. Altho I've never done that, wildly or otherwise.

You have a short memory.

---

From: [email-masked] (Hardison)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 06:01:52 GMT

yea Andrew

---

From: "Marc O'Brien" <[email-masked]>
Date: 9 Oct 1996 23:37:33 GMT

Andrew my impression is that Nick is a free minded creator with the
characteristic light hearted attitude. You might be too heavy and serious
to gain anything out of this thread. Seems to me we have the business man
rediculing the scientist, type of thing. I'm not saying you aren't a
scientist, you're just from another necessary nitch in the big picture that
won't bare much fruit from interaction from Nicks kind where others would
harvest huge spin-offs. But then who the hell am I ?
-- 
Marc O'Brien
Industrial Refrigeration Mechanic

Andrew McKegney <[email-masked]> wrote in article

---

From: "Marc O'Brien" <[email-masked]>
Date: 9 Oct 1996 23:49:45 GMT

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 11:57:45 -0400

Marc O'Brien <[email-masked]> wrote:

>characteristic light hearted attitude.

I do tend to minimize the actual work of building things, but it seems to me
that there are a lot of people in the world who are better at building things
than I am, things that don't leak or fall down, even. Perhaps my niche is
suggesting different ways of building things, from a thermal point of view.
I prefer low-cost materials, at least at first, especially for experimental
systems like bubblewalls, but I think it's important to bear in mind that
solar structures can have many different architectural forms, with equivalent
engineering principles and performance, and that cost/performance ratio is
often more important than performance itself.

So, on to further crackpot schemes:

Valerie sends a little picture, and a clarification:

>Can you send me a simple ascii picture of this?

I try it, but it will be better in .bmp or another graphic format. If you
can to uudecode and unzip it I can send you picture in these formats.
See ascii:
                         input
                      /---   ---\
                    /             \
                  /                 \
                /                     \
            --/                         \
  output   _               Fan            \
           /  __________   __   __________  \
         /   /__________\ I__I /__________\   \
       /----------------------------------------\

...will send some equations later.

>>Quantity of heat (Q) = 1009 J/kg*grad * difference of temp * mass
>>
>>or for my case  Q = 1009 * 0.0063 * 7 = 44.1 watts
>>
>>and COP = 44.1/2.4 = 18
>
>Hey, that's great. What was the airflow rate in that case?

I wrote it for example. I never get it on my device. It was just about 7.

Valerie I. Kotelnikov                   Tuvinian Complex Institute,
academic secretary                      667007, Russia, Republic of
phone 7 394 2236355                     Tuva, Kyzyl, International st.,117a,
fax   7 394 2236555                     e-mail [email-masked]

Well, 7 is pretty good, and I think Val has good reasons to expect higher.

Meanwhile, back at the unfunny free energy farm, I spoke to an engineer friend
who went to Dennis Lee's free energy show in Phila a couple of weeks ago. Lee
is just out of jail, for failing to make good on a number of contracts, as
I understand it. He says he couldn't make good on the contracts because they
threw him in jail. But he rented the Phila convention center for $50K for the
night, the last stop on a US grand national money harvesting tour. He's now
selling "franchises" for $10K each, "a maximum of 2,000 of them." Every one
of the 30 devices on stage was connected to some sort of power source, but
the audience didn't seem to notice that. The "Brown's gas" (H2+O2) engine
was connected to some huge bright orange industrial-looking electrolysis
boxes, plugged into the wall with huge fat black electrical cables.

Why do we waste our time talking about or believing or debunking this stuff?
Why not just build a few more things that do work, eg above-ground swimming
pools or hot tubs with good thermal covers with solar air heaters on their
sunny sides, so they can heat themselves. Or buy more CF light bulbs.

A friend writes: 

>Solar energy and the trees on  our property are about the only sources
>of renewable energy that we have.

It's unwindy and un-hydro-y where I live too, and I have lots of space
as well, a 5 acre "yard," which is now taller than I am, with about 100
55 gallon "accent drums" sprinkled around the yard.
 
>We have an oil burner which heats water for baseboard heat, and a  150
>amp service box where the utility power comes  in.   We  have electric
>central air conditioner and water heater.

Do you have a damp basement too? Perhaps with a dirt floor like mine? I have
an oil burner too, but I don't use it much. I'm thinking of air conditioning
the basement this winter, and heating the house with the warm side of the
air conditioner, to eliminate the 25 gallons of oil I used to heat the house
last winter. I didn't burn any wood last winter, either.

Why not add a plastic film greenhouse onto the south side of your house,
or build yourself a plastic film greenhouse in the sun near your house,
with a strawbale tank lined with EPDM rubber for space and water heating?
If the greenhouse were very near the house, some of the solar "waste heat"
>from  heating the water tank could heat the house with warm air. A greenhouse
might be a fine place to put your central air outdoor unit, if it can
work as a heat pump in the winter. 

Stuppy (800) 877-5025 sells 20' wide x 10' tall greenhouses for 64 cents
per square foot, up to 48' long, 57 cents if longer, plus about $200 for
shipping from Kansas City, and a 30' wide x 100' long x 15' tall 3,000 ft^2 
greenhouse can be put up by 3 people in one day, from scratch, including
the ground stake "foundation." The standard way to keep the plastic film
>from  fatiguing in the wind in the winter is to use two layers and inflate
it to 1/4" water column pressure with a $50, 50 watt blower. You might only
turn on the blower when it is windy, or just use 1 layer of plastic and some
sort of ridge venturi to make a slight vacuum inside when the wind blows.

As an alternative to those standard quonset hut or gothic arch-shaped
greenhouses made with curved galvanized pipes, you might spend another
day making the 18 curved beams you'd need for a 16' wide 8' tall x 32'
long greenhouse out of 36 12' 1x3s costing $2 each, bending two of each
to an 8' radius, with some 1x3 spacers and purlins and ridgepole every 2',
held together with deck screws, for a $200 512 ft^2 structure to collect
and store about 200K Btu of sun per day, about 2 gallons of oil's worth,
on an average December day.

It might look something like this:

     ---                  .
                   .      c      .            The 10' x 32' R10 insulating 
               .               c     .        and reflective cover is shown  
      8'     .                      c  .      in the raised position.
           .                            c.
          . plants,       b "solar" pool  b   ---
         .  picnic table, a    cover      a.
        .   etc.          l  106 F water? l .  4'
     .....................e...............e..................
        |                16'                |

                          |       11'       |
        .....................................
        .                 . ............... . ---
        .                 . .      8'     . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . 30'         . . 32'
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . .             . .
        .                 . . . . . . . . . .
        ..................................... ---

The tank might be 8' wide x 4' deep inside, made with about 80 strawbales
and a few 2x4s and dacron rope and ground stakes, and a single piece of EPDM
rubber, 20' wide x 44' long. Mouldy old $1 strawbales might have this piece
of EPDM rubber draped over the top surface, with the sides uncovered, all
natural-like, with a plastic film vapor barrier underneath. (Yuppies and
architects might use $2 bright yellow strawbales, with accent pumpkins.)

The cover might be

1. rigid as shown, weighing about 300 pounds at 1 lb/ft^2?, made with $160's
worth of 4x8 sheets of 2" Styrofoam and a few 2x4s, painted white underneath 
and dark on top, with a counterweight and a small reversible motor and
photocontrol, or

2. a $24 flat polyethylene pillow, filled with tiny cold bubbles at night and
air during the day, using a $50 wet/dry shop vac with a bubble sensor in the
return line (I wonder how to make that?) to make bubbles out of a soapy water
puddle at the bottom of the plastic film and collect them at the top, for a
few seconds every few hours. This cover might be on the bottom if people were
sitting in this large hot tub, and they would want to be careful to neither
slip nor puncture the plastic film, nor crawl underneath, as one solar pool 
heating professional suggests. The north half of the poly film overhead might
be painted white, to reflect more sun down into the water on a winter day.

3. Another way to make a cover is to assemble $30 worth of 4" solid thinwall
PVC drainage pipe on the floor of the tank, into a 30x8' picture frame, place
$120 worth of 2" Styrofoam on top, lay plastic mesh on top for reinforcement,
and place 2" of concrete or pebbles over that. If all goes well, when you fill
the PVC pipe with 2 cubic feet of air at 2 psi from a 340 cfm, 150 mph $49
Sears leaf blower, to make a bouyant force of about 120 pounds, the cover
might magically rise up to the top in 0.35 seconds, and people could sleep
on it at night. A guest room. With a klaxon and automated "Dive! Dive! Dive!"
announcement a few seconds before the cover sinks at dawn the next morning
to absorb sun in the water through a single layer of plastic film on top?

4. Or, you might lift the neutrally-bouyant slab with a polyethylene film
cover on top, by inflating that. More at night than during the day, when
the floor would be awash. Or you could haul the cover up out of the water
with a rope harness and a $149 Sears garage door opener, which some people
use to haul boats out of the water.

This could become a serious hobby. Or even a business.

What would the average water temperature be in December? Where I live,
the south wall might receive about 1000 Btu/ft^2/day of sun, of which 90%
might make it through the outer layer of plastic film and 80% be reflected
>from  the white surface overhead, and 90% of that might fall into the water,
so the average daily solar gain into the water might be 1000x256x0.9x0.8x0.9
= 166 K Btu. The greenhouse might be 70 F on an average December day in the
Philadelphia area, with some sun, or warmer if there's a reflecting surface
to the south. 

The pool would mainly lose heat through the "solar pool cover," over a 6 hour
solar collection day, so if there were no useful heat output from the pool,
it might have an average steady-state stagnation water temp T such that
166K Btu = 6(T-70)240 ft^2/R1 ==> T = 70 + 166K/(6x240) = 185 F. Warm enough
to cook lobsters?

The thermal conductance of the pool with the cover in place would be about

    320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the cover,
  + 320 ft^2/R50 =  6 for the walls,
  + 320 ft^2/R10 = 32 for the bottom,
    for a total of 70 Btu/hr-F,

and the average temp inside the greenhouse might be 50 F in December, so if
the pool temp were 130 F, say, the top and sides of the pool might lose
24(130-50)70 = 134 K Btu/day, and the 4x8x32x64 = 65,536 pounds of water
might lose 134K/66K = 2 F on a cloudy day, and another 2 F if it supplied
a modern house with the heat equivalent of a gallon of oil per day.

And another 1 F if it were supplying hot water for the house, via some hot
water plastic pipe running around the top edge... How much plastic pipe area
do we need to heat 3 gpm of water from 55 F to 110 F in 130 F water? We need
to transfer 3x8x(110-55) = 1320 Btu of heat in a minute, or about 80 K Btu/hr
(23 kW), which we might do across a liquid-liquid interface with an R0.1 thin
PVC pipe wall between (copper pipe might make this R0.03, and tend to inhibit
algae growth in the pool), with an average temperature difference of something
like 50 F, so we'd need a pipe surface area A such that 80K = 50 A /R0.1, so 
A = 0.1x80K/50 = 160 ft^2. A $10 10'x4" schedule 80 PVC pipe has an area of 
Pix4/12x10 = 10.5 ft^2 and a volume of 3.14x(1/6)^2x10 = 0.87 ft^3 (which
would displace $1.77 worth of concrete at $55/yd^3.) So, do we need 16 of
these 10' pipes? I don't think so, since we do not or should not use 3 gpm
of hot water for more than about 20 minutes at a time, ie 60 gallons or
7.5 cubic feet, or about 8 pipefuls of water, or 80 linear feet of pipe,
once around the top edge, just under the water surface. 

Now how can we keep this pipe half full of air, to float the pool cover?

Nick

---

From: [email-masked] (Andy Burgess)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 13:03:26 -0700

In <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Nick Pine) writes:

>on it at night.

I don't think 2 psi is enough. A column of water is roughly 1/2 PSI
per foot so to inflate something on the bottom of a swimming pool would 
take more pressure. Maybe run a line from the hot tub bubbler?

-- 
Best regards,
Andy Burgess
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Nick Pine)
Date: 10 Oct 1996 17:49:03 -0400

Andy Burgess <[email-masked]> wrote:

>take more pressure.

This was the 4' hot tub version, filled with 3.5' of 0.43 psi/ft water?
The cover would normally be near the surface, in automatic mode, and only on
the bottom and close to neutrally bouyant if someone were using the pool/tub,
so perhaps the person could manually pull the cover up to the top with a
rope in that case, and a 3" H20 blower could normally keep it afloat?

Still wondering how to keep the 4" pipe underneath half-filled with air,
with a bit more to raise the cover and a bit less to lower it. Some kind
of low pressure air pump in a higher pressure enclosure, eg a 55 gallon
plastic drum wrapped with concrete and chicken wire? :-)

Nick

---

From: Will Stewart <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 22:04:48 -0400

> suggesting different ways of building things, from a thermal point of view.

Suggesting is one thing; berating people for not implementing your whims
or preferences is another.

> often more important than performance itself.

As always in architect, one must also consider aesthetics.  If you want
to promote lower costs, then consider earth ships.