Msg#: 1 7-05-91 01:11am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Availability Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Amnon Nissan, the Region 18 (?) echo coordinator is now carrying this echo in the Southest. Please let others know about the echo so we can share as widely as possible....It is also avilable via the region 10 REC, Bob Krakov in Sacramento at 203/53.....FYI... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2 7-06-91 12:07am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Vortex nozzles Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR For sometime I have been fascinated with a device called the vortex nozzle. It has two outlets, one at each end of a tube. You plumb conpressed air into an inlet on the side and presto, hot air comes out one end and cold out of the other. We're not just taking "cool" air but actually cold. I've got some performance data at work on these and an article from somewhere on homebrewing one of these devices (though not a very efficient one). These are used for various thing commercially....in machine shops to cool cutting tools, in garment manufacture to cool thread and guides, and in "hot suits" used in suprerhot enviornments. It's major drawback is that it's not very efficient at it's use of power....generating enough cubic feet of air to run it cost more than the benefit in most cases...at least when we think of electrically operated compressors. There are a few uses, as noted, where they are routinely used and are worth their expense. There are possibly some independant home oriented applications given the right circumstances. One might be to act as the cooling agent for an efficient refridgerator. The real trick would be having some available source of energy to run it however I'm definity not thinking of PV's. I'm not sure that one needs electricity to run this, since we're talking about compressed air here we need some power, a pump and a tank to store compressed air. The power might be harnessed directly via wind or water and wouldn't necessarily need to be constant for refridgeration (if the fridgerator was well insulated and had enough thermal mass). Guess I'm talking about a lower "grade" of power here and more direct conversion. I don't know how "doable" this is, hopefully I'll get to try it out one day.It might be a really elegant way to get refridgeration sans batteries, panels, propane et all. It would be "different" too, plumbing air around instead of electricity. I'll scounge up and post access info on the leading manufacturer of these nozzles and performance/consumption data. I do know that they offer an "experimenters kit" with a nozzle and various restrictors, nozzle pieces to "tune" this to meet your needs for about $120. More to come... While I was writing this I did recall one other "fly" in the ointment....They make noise and a fair amount of it. Still I think that could be minimized so it shouldn't be a fatal flaw....And it might be a great reason to have compressed air around...very handy stuff. Love air wrenchs. Hmmm....if we think in reference to using "air motors" a lot of stuff might be possible...an air powered radial arm saw?..............DCK P.S.-Can't go forgetting we generate hot air at the same time... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 3 7-06-91 8:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: Home Power Magazine Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR At least I already have a start on a 12 volt system. I already have a bank ofsix 12 volt deep cycle batteries tht i use in my camper. I often am using the camper for 5-6 days with no recharges so I want enough batteries when I am on the road. It would not take much more to build a off grid system. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 4 7-08-91 01:32am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: ALL Re: FidoNews Article Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR For Your Info....The text of the soon to appear FidoNews article promoting our echo conference..... Don Kulha Fido 125/7 Home-made Energy Echo We have a new conference on Homemade Energy echoing around the country and want to invite you folks to join us. Renewable and sustainable energy systems make a lot more sense for our nation and for us as individuals. They open up possibilities in where we can live and work with energy independence and much reduced pollution created for the energy we consume. HOMEPOWR is about these possibilities, and the hard technical aspects of doing it using a hands-on approach dealing with "personal" sized systems. Some of the topics discussed are: Photovoltaic Systems, Wind Power, Hydro generation, Hydrogen generation and fuel cells, Rural Living, Solar Heating (water & air), Battery storage systems and cogeneration. We also post notices of renewable energy events (shows, schools, partys) and associations that promote renewable energy. This conference should be an useful, interesting and appropriate use of our bandwidth. We are currently sending this directly to several other systems around the country and are distributing it direct to two regional hubs. We are in the process of contacting all REC's to ask if they will accept a feed from us for their regions so we hope to have this echo widely available very soon (and eventually on the backbone). Please ask after the HOMEPOWR echo in your area and ask that it be made available if it isn't. The echo is inspired by and loosely (very) affiliated with "Home Power" magazine. They accept no responsibility for whatever mischief we get ourselves into but are supplying us with the text of many articles they've published over the years to post online (to the echo and for download) and will probably participate with us online as soon as we can set them up a node nearby. We will be publishing a list of access points to the echo in various print media which will both promote the echo and make a large pool of practical expertise available. The HOMEPOWR echo will also be going on the road, to the Solar Expo in Willits CA and the Tour de Mendo electric/solar vehicle rally shortly. All in all we think the echo will be quite interesting and invite you to join us! Thanks for your time.....DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR 06/08/91 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 5 7-07-91 03:13am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: Home Power Magazine Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR GB>At least I already have a start on a 12 volt system. I GB>already have a bank ofsix 12 volt deep cycle batteries tht i GB>use in my camper. I often am using the camper for 5-6 days GB>with no recharges so I want enough batteries when I am on the GB>road. It would not take much more to build a off grid system. GB> GB>--- ConfMail V3.31 GB> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 GB>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Yeah, it really is a good start (start, heck, that's a substantial system!). Are the deepcycles L-16s? And your alternator could be rigged (you know this right?) to charge them too. Where are you at, Sonoma County? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6 7-10-91 4:30pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Roy Wilson To: Gale Re: Wind Energy Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR A few years back we lived on the sonoma coastline in a small house trailer on a piece of land a friend had inherited. There was no power available anywhere closeby so we lived the simple life using battery powered radios, a couple kerosene lamps and a woodstove. One of the more mechanically inclined members of our little co-op went over to a niehbors place where several old cars we rusting away and came back with a armful of bulbs, sockets, a battery and misc. junk. He put the battery into our lone vehicle, an old chevy pickup, to recharge it when we made our weekly trip to the big city (santa rosa). While we were there he also stopped and bought a couple rolls of wire and a used meter at an electronics junk store. When we returned home he got busy wrapping and taping wires together. It wasn't very pretty but we had functioning electric lights which beat servicing kerosene lamps all to hell....we even stopped smelling like a diesel truck after a while. We also had a used car cassette/radio to listen to and didn't have to buy batterys for the portable radio anymore. The downside was that we had to keep an eye on the meter he'd hooked up (it measured volts) because if it measured less than 10 it wouldn't start the truck it got put in for charging. It wasn't quite big city living but we thought it was quite something. Eventually the friend who had the pickup found a gal and moved in with her. Our resident mechanic got to scratching his head andstarted talking about windmills (the bbs told me I got 2 minutes left-have to finish this another time)(soon). Roy --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 7 7-10-91 5:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR A couple weeks back we got a laptop computer in trade of a desktop machine we had for sale. It isn't particularly powerful but has been quite handy. It's a Zenith 181, with a 5mhz 8088, a math co-processor, an internal 1200 baud modem, 2-720k 3.5" drives and a backlit LCD display (80X24). It came with a charger and an internal ni-cad battery pack so it can run off battery power (internal) for a few hours at a time. The thing that caught my eye was the power requirements: 18 watts. The charger/power supplys we got with this claim to consume only 21 watts. That got me to thinking...it could be that laptop computers could be the ideal off-grid personal computer. Now that they've been on the market a few years I'm always seeing clearances and close outs of older models at cheap prices. The internal battery pack has a 2 pin molex connector which connects it's 10 cell 1500ma SCR battery pack to the internals for power. It would be a snap (which I'll check out in a day or three) to plug this thing into a car battery which ought to run it for a long time (each cell is 1.2 volts which X10 gives us 12 volts. If your rural home were wired for 12 volts already a laptop like this might be ideal. Some quickie off the top of my head computing tells me that a 250 amp hour battery ought to hold something like 3000 watts. Dividing that by 15 gives me something like 200 hours. A some point the voltage would drop to a point where the voltage would be lower than the laptop would tolerate (and might even hurt it) and of course with a lead-acid battery you don't want to draw them down too far often or you'll kill the battery. Still, I figure that you could probably get a weeks worth of 8 hour use-days out of this before needing to recharge that 250 amp/hr car battery, if not more. I hadn't thought much about laptops in conjunction with the idea of independant power before I got this one but it's a promising concept...and you don't even need an inverter to run it! I'll have to do some checking around to see about the energy consumption of other laptops. I've read that those which have more memory and hard disks have shorter battery life which seems reasonable but I'll try and get some better data on this. As is though even a machine as simple as this one is quite useful (I've ene got it set-up to call and receive this echo from the BBS each night so I can read it off-line). I've been lusting after a laptop for some time now and am glad I got this one....however a hard disk and a grey scale LCD display would be nice....hmmmmm. I'll do some research and get back to you folks with some hard data on other brands/types of machines. Don P.S.-Just for curiosity I looked at the manual for the Conner 30104 IDE (they also make SCSI) hard drive. It's a 120mb, 18 millisec 3.5", 1" high hard disk. It's power consumption is stated as: read-write mode: 3.8 watts seek Mode: 3.9 watts idle Mode 2.8 watts That is pretty darn stingy power-wise...especially compared to this "beast" big Maxtor in the BBS (250mb) which uses about 50 watts.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 8 7-10-91 5:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Telephone call and news... Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Had the opportunity to speak with Richard Perez at Home Power magazine over the weekend. They were glad to hear that the echo has become reality and that it's becoming widely available (more on that shortly). As I've mentioned they produce the magazine on totally home-generated power. Richard said that they are running a half dozen Mac's (SE's and II's i believe he said) 10 hours a day off their system. That must take a lot of juice...love to see their set-up. He said that they'd get a few disks off in the mails this week (gotta go check the POB in a bit) so we'd have some of the articles from their early issues to post to the echo and to a files section for downloading. Speaking of which, we'll be glad to copy this stuff to tape for any sysops that also want to make this stuff available for their callers...(but wait a couple months until we can get enough stuff to make it worth your while). They are "off-the-grid" totally. No phone lines even, but since they need phones they have a radio-phone system tied into a friends place a few miles away. It seems to work pretty slick since our connection was clear and they can also run a 2400 baud modem across it. Last year at SEER 90 I spoke with the owner of the outfit that set-up their system (Carlson Electronics, Garberville CA) and he said that they may be able to run 9600 across the same sort of link soon. Anyway, I mention this because we briefly spoke about getting them online. He is going to speak with the chap at the other end of his phone line (who programs for Microsoft full time remotely) about the part-time use of one of his numerous computers. I've offered to come up and install the software so that they can could have a net node local to them and so I could toss the echo up to their "doorstep" so to speak. This will probably take a while to get together but it make it easier to participate and share there experience. One caveat their (Richard was understandably pretty non-commital) is that they can't promise to very participative. Running the magazine is a 12 hour a day thing at times. Still, if we build this into a vital conference I'd think they'll be enticed....(grin). We'll be seeing them in about a month at SEER 91' where, speaking of which, we "might" be able to set-up an information booth. With a bit of luck we may be able to set-up an information booth with hand-outs, charts, and Sid (our Zenith laptop) running in the booth and tied into the echo nightly. That could be fantasticly fun and be great promotion for the echo. I've contacted some solar equipment suppliers about publishing a list of access points to the echo in some of their mailings. Told them we'd speak again at SEER so we could show them what's going on and they tentatively agreed that if it looks good they'll help us out. Great! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 9 7-10-91 6:45pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Speak Up!/News... Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR We have contacted (or are trying to) all the REC's and asked them to accept direct feeds of this echo. So far it's available from the REC's in region 11 (ILL) and 18 (MA) and should also be available in regions 10 and 16 very soon. This should make the echo "potentially" available on 1,500-2,000 systems in the U.S. This is great progress and with some of you promoting the echo in your areas and a soon (I hope) to be published article in FidoNews it should really get the ball rolling. To that end I ask a couple favors of the folks carrying and reading the echo. Please do use it, and at least post a note introducing yourself. Also, if you run a board please post a note here so we can add your system name to a list we hope to have published (and compiled and posted here too). It takes a while to get any echo going, 'specially one on a unique topic such as this. That's the reason we haven't and won't ask for backbone status too soon. I'd like to see this be more vital before we ask to use the backbone's bandwidth. We're going to have to work at this to make it go (as you can see from all the posts I've entered - which I can only hope were interesting) and we'll appreciate your cooperation in "growing" this echo......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 10 7-11-91 09:49am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Guy Hokanson To: Don Kulha Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR " >" so I can off-line). I've been lusting after a laptop for some " >" time glad I got this one....however a hard disk and a grey " >" scale LC display would be nice....hmmmmm. I'll do some " >" research and get you folks with some hard data on other " >" brands/types of machin Don P.S.-Just for curiosity I looked at " >" the manual for the Conner 30104 IDE (they also make SCSI) hard " >" drive. It's a 120mb, 18 millisec 3.5", 1" high hard disk. It's " >" power consumption is stated as: read-write mode: 3.8 watts " >" seek Mode: 3.9 watts idle Mode 2.8 watts That is " >" pretty darn stingy power-wise...especially compared to this " >" "beast" big Maxtor in the BBS (250mb) which uses about 50 " >" watts.... Both Toshiba and two other companies have released special laptops geared around remote communications capability with cellular or radio communications built in. The cellular system would be ideal for someone in a remote area who needs to access a BBS or something for contact in and out. ... "What's a standard?" --- Via Silver Xpress V2.28 * Origin: Aerospace Technology BBS SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 111 180 2553 151/1000 203/53 212/5 107 SEEN-BY: 226/70 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 11 7-11-91 10:16am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Shad Muegge To: All Re: Solar Electric Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Hello to all from 1:125/180. I was talking to guy who works for Solar Electric here in Santa Rosa. They make solar powered cars. I was only able to talk to him for a few minutes so I didn't get the details. He did say that they produce a two cars, a Ford Fiesta (or Taurus) for about $18,000, and another car for about $26,000. I was wondering how these solar powered cars work, including operating costs, etc. The prices above aren't what I could afford now, but it seems to be a new industry. In anycase, I am going to try and get more info locally, since they are located right here in Santa Rosa. But, any info people out there on the net have would be appreciated. I just realized solar cars aren't exactly home power, but the concept of using solar power to replace fossil power should be revelent. Shad Muegge --- DMG BBS v3.00 Beta * Origin: The Outland BBS (9600 baud) (1:125/180) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 185 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 12 7-12-91 4:53pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Shad Muegge Re: Electric Cars Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR > From: Shad Muegge > To: All > Subj: Solar Electric > > I was talking to guy who works for Solar Electric > here in Santa > Rosa. They make solar powered cars. I was only able to > talk to him for a > few minutes so I didn't get the details. He did say that > they produce a > two cars, a Ford Fiesta (or Taurus) for about $18,000, and > another car for > about $26,000. > They make "electric cars" that have a solar panel "assist" to help charge the batteries. Considering that the average trip most folks use their cars for is relatively short (something like 12 miles?) an electric vehicle makes tremendous sense. Solar Electric (116 4th St., Santa Rosa CA 95401 (707)542-1990) lists 4 vehicles in their catalog (just received here) most of which claim a range of 35-55 miles and top speed of 55-65 mph. All but their top of the line "sports" model have only a 12v "Maintainer" solar panel. According to their catalog the largest model "Maintainer" panel puts out a paltry 2 watts. They also offer a 200 watt panel option for most of the vehicles which runs an extra $2k or so. Practically speaking they need to have some place to plug into if you plan to use them very often. It is interesting to note that they also offer some components for sale for those that want to build their own vehicles. There are a number of companies that offer components and vehicles some of which are located fairly close to you in Willits CA. Home Power Magazine has run a number of articles on the subject so I'll try to dig up some references for you. Interestingly a lot of companies build off-road electric vehicles...we're not talking about RV's here but "on-plant" material transport carts. Where I work we have a small fleet of these vehicles and a handful of golf carts. They're quite handy. > I just realized solar cars aren't exactly home > power, but the > concept of using solar power to replace fossil power should > be revelent. > Absolutely correct Shad....very pertinent....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 13 7-12-91 10:21pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Shad Muegge Re: Solar Electric Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR I had to do some digging and put out a couple fires (via phone) but I dug into some back issues of Home Power and found a couple interesting bits. Dependant on how handy you are they could be worthwhile..... "Alternative Transportation News" is a publication from Earthmind (POB 743, Mariposa CA 95338, 213-396-1527) that sounds interesting and is published 6X a year and cost $12 for a sub. They are also purported to have "Electric Vehicles: Design and Build your Own" for around $10. Home Power #8 (Dec 88) had an excellent article by Michael Hackleman on EV's. He was in the process of putting together a newsletter and resource list of EV info and companies offering parts for the "Homebrewer". On thing mentioned was a company that made motor adaptor plates to mount the ubiquitous General Electric 20 HP motor to Volkwagen Beetles, rabbits, Hondas, Datsuns, Pintos, etc. You'll want to get on his mailing list and send him a large SASE for more info. His address is POB 1161, Mariposa CA 95338. If you can possible make it to Willits for SEER 91 I'd hartily reccomend it as most of the EV "movers and shakers" should be there for the Tour de Mendo Rally. Last year there was a row of both custom and manufactured EV's along one side of the exhibit area. Some were crude and others very, very well done. Everyone was willing and happy to tell you about their project and answer questions. SEER 91' is the 9th, 10th and 11th of August. You also might be able to pickup a back issue of HP #8. Barring that hopefully Richard will be giving us that file at some point in the future. We'll be archiving them here, and posting some to the echo (space permitting). Refering to HP #14 there was an article by Phil Jergenson (Suntools, 271 Franklin Ave., Willits CA 95490) on EV's. He may be a resource for knowledge and or parts. Myself, I've always had an interest in EV's and have read and mused on them for the past 20 years. The company I work for manufactures solar cell "covers" for extraterrestial applications (almost every space vehicle using photovoltaics in orbit uses our product). They enhance trnamission of solar energy while protecting the fragile cells and rejecting UV energy. We supplied GM's Sunracer with covers and also Cal State LA's solar racer with their covers. We had the sunracer at our place (Optical Coating Labs Inc.) and it was fascinating to look at all the engineering that went into it. This evening I dug into my junk box and scounged a dozen small E.T. solar cells I got 8 years ago. I may try and retrofit my son's small radio controlled Ferrari (16th scale) with these. Might be a neat hack...DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 14 7-12-91 11:13pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR "Battle of the Currents" By J. Michael Mooney, Home Power #8 One hundred years ago man stood at the brink of a new era. Electricity held the promise of a more rewarding and productive future for both home and industry. Edison's 90% efficient dynamo was generating electricity in the U.S. and England. Edison's electric light and a few electric motors were the only appliances thus far available, with such basics as volt meters and ammeters still on the drawing board. A bitter contraversy errupted between Thomas Edison and George Westinghouse as to the voltage level and current selection to be used in implementing this newfound technology. The "Battle of the Currents" raged from 1885 to 1893. Edison firmly believed that voltage levels should remain low (about 40 volts) to preclude the danger of electrocution, and in the "smooth and continuous power of DC which could be stored in batteries and used as needed". Edison warned that "high tension alternating current was exceedingly dangerous and unmanageable". Westinghouse set his sights on large commercial applications, not the least of which was the large scale distribution of electricity as a commodity. At the peak of the Battle, to demonstrate the danger, an Edison employee toured the country electrocuting stray dogs with alternating current - "Westinghousing them" he said. A Serbian engineer, Nikola Tesla, who had come to the U.S. in 1884 and found employment with Edison, opted to join forces with Westinghouse. It was Tesla who began to invent large motors and later polyphase devices to operate from alternating current. The massive power available at Niagra Falls, Tesla's AC inventions, and the huge power market at Buffalo, NY, 22 miles away tipped the scales in favor of alternating current. Edison had lost the "Battle of the Currents'. Today, with thousands of people dead from electrocution and hundreds of monopolistic power companies at our throats, we have begun to look back. We have readdressed the 1885 task of designing low voltage DC appliances, refined the 1839 discovery called photovoltaics and are moving toward Edison's vision of physical safety and financial independence. Edison may have lost the battle but he is about to win the war. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 15 7-12-91 11:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Vortex Tubes Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR A few days back I mentioned my fascination with "Vortex Tubes" and their potential application to independantly powered home sites with an abundance of power. I found their catalog and wanted to "fill in the blanks" of my last post on the subject. Vortec Corporation (10125 Carver Rd., Cincinnati OH 45242, (800) 441-7475) manufactures these fascinating devices. I mentioned some experimenters kits: Their kit #116 includes their #106 tube, a 5 micron inlet filter, a cold end muffler, various venturi parts to tune the tube for the intended use and full documentation; it cost about $190. This kit offer refridgeration of up to 400 BTUH, flow rates (incoming air) of 2, 4 or 8 CFM and a maximum cold temp of -40 F. Their kit #218 includes their #208 tube, the same list of parts and up to 2500 BTUH with varying flow rates of 11,15, 25 and 35 CFM and a temp of -40 F. The hot air discharge end of the tube outputs air at (I believe) 167 F. These devices like an inlet pressure of 80-100 PSI though may operate at a lower pressure. I find it amazing that you can squirt pessurized air into the middle of a tube and get hot air out of one end and cold (very) out of the other. It may not be the most efficient use of power but some of us may be able to use it where electrical generation or propane powered refridgeration isn't possible or practical. The idea of a wholly mechanical refridgeration system without the bane of ozone destroying CFCs or pollution producing propane has a certain romantic appeal about it. More later....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 16 7-13-91 9:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Christmas in July! Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Well friends Santa Claus has visited us early this year. We received a box of disks containing the text and diagrams from the first five issues of Home Power Magazine! This is great info and I'm very thankful to the folks at H-P mag for sharing this with us. I'm going to post the first in a series of articles I'm sure you'll enjoy. You'll have to bear with us a bit. They use Macs and we use IBM compatibles....so some conversion was in order. They supplied ASCII text but we still had to do some work on it. I'm going to need to bone up on the text formatter used for the first time this eve. Also the text refers to some diagrams and pictures which are necessarily absent from these online postings. They would have clarified a few things but we believe you'll still obtain a lot of very useful info even without them. As we get these files converted we'll also post them online with (hopefully) the diagrams. These files will also be available on tape to other sysops at some point in time. In any case enjoy! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 17 7-13-91 10:15pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: System Review 1 of 4 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR A Working PV/Engine AE System by Richard Perez Many readers of Home Power are asking for real examples of working AE systems, complete with specific equipment lists, performance data, and cost analysis. Well, we hear you and here is the first of our system reports. Please remember that this and all working systems represent a compromise between many factors. Location, electrical power needs, finances, and hardware availability all make their impressions on the working system. Alternative energy systems are a process: we enter and leave this process in the middle. Nothing here ever really has a start or a finish. Changing needs and emerging technologies make it best to plan for change. So read ahead and see how this family rolls their own power. Location & Site: John and Anita Pryor live high in the Siskiyou Mountains of Northern California. Their homestead is about 3 miles from the nearest commercial utility. Altitude is about 3,200 feet with a panoramic view of Mt. Shasta some 50 miles to the South. Solar insolation is about 240 full sun days yearly. While the location appears to have wind potential (at least in the Summer), no real survey of wind conditions has been made at the Pryor's location. Water sources at this site, while more than enough for domestic use, lack the fall or flow for hydro power potential. The commercial electrical utility wants just under $100,000. to run the power lines to John & Anita's homestead. Electrical Power Usage The Pryor's household represents a fairly standard consumption profile for two people living on alternative energy. Their appliances include a 12 VDC electric refrigerator/freezer, a 12 VDC B/W TV set, 120 VAC lighting, 22" color 120 VAC TV, 120 VAC Video Cassette Recorder, 120 VAC Sewing Machine, various 120 VAC kitchen and household appliances. A detailed profile of how John & Anita use their homemade electricity is in the column graph shown in Figure 1. INSERT FIG1 The vertical axis of the graph is calibrated in Watt-hours per day, while the horizontal axis details the various appliances. The Pryor's total electrical power consumption is about 2,030 Watt-hours per day. Their electrical use is both 12 VDC directly from the batteries, and 120 VAC from the inverter. DC portion of the consumption is about 1,372 Watt-hours per day, while the remaining 656 Watt-hours per day are AC via the inverter. John and Anita are into energy conservation, their daily electrical consumption is less than 20% of the average American household. DC Appliances From the graph it is very apparent that the largest single user of electricity in John & Anita's system is the 12 VDC refrigerator/freezer. This 12 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer consumes about 860 Watt-hours per day on the yearly average. While this amounts to 48% of the energy the Pryors produce and use, it is very low in comparison with conventional refrigeration. Specialized AE refrigerator/freezers are initially more expensive than their standard household counterparts, but they quickly pay for themselves by saving energy. Two other DC appliances are worthy of note. The 12 VDC B/W TV allows low powered viewing and doesn't require the use of the inverter. The CB radio is the homestead's only communication and is also 12 VDC powered. Note that the receive and transmit states of the CB are detailed separately in the consumption profile. This technique works for other appliances that consume energy at differing rates as they perform their functions. AC Appliances The Pryor's use about 390 Watt-hours per day in lighting. They are currently using 120 VAC fluorescent types for about half their lighting, with incandescent 120 VAC lightbulbs picking up the remainder. All lighting is powered via the inverter. John is looking forward to installing 12 VDC fluorescent lighting in the future. All other usage of 120 VAC really doesn't amount to much in terms of energy consumption. This is one nice feature of inverter type systems. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 18 7-13-91 10:17pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: System Review, 2 of 4 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Standard household appliances such as color TVs, stereos, vacuum cleaners, and sewing machines can be used with the inverter. Even though some of these appliances consume substantial amounts of energy while running, they are only running occasionally for short periods of time. Consider the case of a vacuum cleaner. A vacuum may consume some 400 Watts of power, but if it is only used about 5 minutes daily, then its total energy consumption is about 33 Watt-hours per day. Not a very substantial amount of power when compared with the cleaning wonders accomplished by the vacuum. The situation is much the same for many AC appliances. SYSTEM HARDWARE The AE system the Pryors are now using was first specified and modeled by the EnergyMaster computer program. This program, written by the Electron Connection Ltd., simulates the operation and costs of solar/engine systems. Its use allowed the Pryors to properly size their system to meet their specific needs at the lowest possible cost. A diagram on this system is contained in Figure 2. INSERT FIG2 Power Sources The Pryors use two energy sources- photovoltaics and a homemade 12 VDC gasoline engine/generator. The computer specified eight PV panels, each 48 Watts, for this system. However, finances forced John and Anita to make do with only four 48 Watt Kyocera photovoltaic modules. These 4 modules produce about 950 Watt-hours of energy on an average sunny day at John & Anita's location. This makes their system about 47% solar powered. One of the nice things about PVs is their expandability. John and Anita can add more panels to their system whenever they wish. The cost of the four Kyocera PV modules was $1,400. The mounting rack made by John and Anita is simple to build, very strong and inexpensive. This rack uses standard hardware store materials and adapts easily to wall, roof, or ground mounting. The rack also allows seasonal elevation adjustment of the 4 panels it holds. Construction of this rack is covered in this month's Solar article. The cost of the mounting rack was $75. The remainder on the power is produced by a homemade engine/generator set. This unit uses a single cylinder, horizontal shaft, gas engine to drive an automotive alternator. This engine/generator set is capable of delivering 40 amperes of 12 to 16 VDC directly to the batteries. A field controller, made by Electron Connection, regulates both the alternator's output current and voltage. Details for the construction of this engine/generator and its control system are featured in this month's Engine section. While this generator does consume gas and is noisy, it allows the Pryor's to get by until they have more PVs. When they do add more PVs to their system, then the generator quietly recedes into the background, only to be run during extended cloudy periods. Such an engine/generator costs about $750. to construct. This represents a first class job- Honda OHV motor, high Amp. alternator (we like the 100 Amp. Chrysler models), welded steel base, control system and heavy cast pulleys. Power Storage John and Anita use four Trojan L-16W batteries to store their electricity. This series/parallel battery pack stores 700 Ampere-hours of 12 VDC energy. This amounts to about 8,600 Watt-hours of storage. Once the batteries have been derated by 20% (if you don't know why, then see Home Power #1- Battery article), there is 6,900 Watt-hours of usable energy stored in the battery. At the rate that John and Anita consume power, this battery pack stores about 3.3 days worth of energy for them. The cost of their batteries was $880. With proper care we expect these batteries to last about 10 years. Details on proper battery cycling and care are in Home Power #1. John & Anita located the batteries in their kitchen directly opposite their woodstove. While Anita is not happy about having them inside, she realizes the importance of keeping her batteries warm in the Winter. The preceding year, the Pryor's kept their batteries outside in the cold. They noticed the substantial decrease in the batteries capacity due to cold temperatures. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 19 7-13-91 10:18pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: System Review, 3 of 4 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Power Conversion The Pryor's are using a Trace 1512 inverter with built-in battery charger. This inverter converts the DC energy produced by the PVs and stored in the batteries into conventional 120 VAC, 60 cycle house power. It has a rating of 1,500 Watts output. John purchased the built-in battery charger even though he now lacks the 120 VAC powerplant necessary to drive it. John is looking forward to the day when he will have a large AC generator to handle periods of intense and unusual power consumption. The Trace contains a metering package that is very useful. John and Anita rely on this package for most of their system metering. This LED digital meter reads battery voltage, charge current from the built-in charger, and peak voltage plus frequency of any 120 VAC power source feeding the charger. This metering package is just the ticket for generator users. They can adjust the frequency of their powerplants using this meter's information. The Trace's battery charger accepts 120 VAC from a powerplant and recharges the batteries. John now has a small 650 Watt, 120 VAC Honda generator, but it lacks the power to effectively run the 80 ampere charger in the Trace inverter. The best it can manage is about 27 Amps into the batteries. This inverter cost John and Anita $1,458. with the optional charger and metering package. John and Anita have nothing but praise for their Trace inverter. It powers all the AC appliances they brought with them to their mountain home. John likes the way he can use his wall full of stereo and video equipment. Anita spends many hours working with her sewing machine. All these appliances are standard 120 VAC household models. The Trace inverter makes their operation possible and efficient on PV produced, battery stored, DC energy. SYSTEM OPERATION The batteries will store enough energy for 3.3 days of operation. On an average basis, the four PV panels extend this storage period to about 5 days between generator rechargings. This amounts to generator operation about every 4 days during the Winter months and about once a week during the Summer. John and Anita are putting some 1,100 hours yearly on their mechanical generator. This costs them about $30 per month in fuel and maint- enance. John and Anita are their own power company. They both watch their battery voltage and electrical consumption like hawks! Generating their own electricity has taught them the lessons of conservation and energy management. They are looking forward to completing their system by adding more PVs and more batteries. Four more PV modules will make them almost totally solar powered. This will reduce their operating expenses and allow them to use more energy. Anita has a washing machine on the back porch that she's giving the eye. Incidently, this washer has already been run using the Trace inverter. Since the data was collected for this report, John Pryor has moved his refrigerator/freezer. This move from the warm kitchen to the much colder back bedroom has cut John's wintertime power consumption by about 40%. One such details the success or failure of AE systems rest. Careful usage of what Nature offers us is the key to full batteries! John reports that no matter the season, he can leave his system unattended and be sure of ice cubes in the freezer & full batteries when he returns. Thanks to the four PV modules on the roof. Since the four modules only produce 12 Amps or so in full sun, there is no need for regulation. This 12 Amps is only present an average of less than 8 hours daily. The full current output of the modules is about a C/50 rate, far too slow to damage or overcharge the hefty L-16 battery pack of 700 A-H. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 20 7-13-91 10:19pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: System Review 4 of 4 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR System Cost Data The Pryors have spent about $4,700. on hardware to this point. This is substanially less than the $100,000. or so the power company wanted just to run in the lines (never mind the monthly bill). With a current operating cost of $30. per month, this system supplies their electricity at about $1.10 per kiloWatt-hour. This figure includes all hardware and fuel amortized over a ten year period. Figure 3 shows how the money is spent on this system. Note that their expenditure for fuel is still substantial. If you add it all together, it costs John and Anita about $8,000. to buy and operate the system they now have for a ten year period. Not a bad solution to back country electrical needs. And at 8% of the power line cost! INSERT FIG3 With the addition of four more PV modules, the system will become more efficient and produce its power for about $1.00 per kiloWatt-hour. These additional panels will reduce the generator operating time to 450 hours yearly and the operating cost to about $10. per month. It will also extend the average storage in the four batteries from 5 days to over 11 days. Well, that's about it for our first system review. Please write us and let us know if this type of report was what you had in mind. Once again, this is a real, operating system; not a computer sim- ulation. While it may not be texbook ideal, it does show what can be done with initiative, perserverance, and a limited budget. If you want to correspond directly with John and Anita Pryor, drop them a line at POB 115, Hornbrook, CA 96044. Article courtesy of and copyrighted by Home Power Magazine --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 21 7-14-91 09:15am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Understanding Heat 1 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR The Fireside by Don Hargrove To understand our increasing need for renewable energy, we must know that our future lies not in the hands of those who abuse, but in the hands of those who efficiently use our valuable resources. In this and future articles I will discuss heat: its definition and its use. By being aware of this basic technology, we can gain a working knowledge of heat's daily application in various systems. WHAT IS HEAT? Heat is a form of invisible energy. Only the work that heat does ca n be seen. For instance: when the gas in your automobile engine is ignited, the burning gases expand. This expansion causes a release of heat (energy), which in turn causes work to be done. This work then becomes mechanical energy. TEMPERATURE AND HEAT All matter consist of molecules in motion. This motion is defined as internal energy or heat. The amount of this internal energy depends upon how rapidly the atoms or molecules are moving. The faster these particles are moving, the hotter the object i s and the higher amount of internal energy it contains. TEMPERATURE is an indication of an object's internal energy. A thermometer measures this in degrees; Fahrenheit and Centigrade (Celsius) being the two most common scales. The temperature of an object determines if that object will gain or lose internal energy. Heat always flows from a hotter object to a colder one. This is a temperature "hill". Like water, heat flows downhill. The greater the difference in temperature between two objects, the st eeper the hill, and the faster the heat will flow between the two objects. The hotter object is giving up some of its internal energy to the colder one. Given enough time, these two objects will equalize their temperature. It is important to remember that heat and temperature are not the same thing. Temperature is an indication of the amount of internal energy and heat is the transfer of this internal energy between two objects. Heat is measured in two basic units: BTUs (British Thermal Units) and calories. One BTU is the amount of heat needed to raise one pound (approximately one pint) of water one degree Fahrenheit. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 22 7-14-91 09:16am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Understanding Heat 2 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR One calorie will raise one gram (0.035 ounce) of water one degree Centigrade. These units are calculated at sea level atmospheric pressure (one atmosphere). Heat and temperature tell only part of what is happening. Let's look at what happens to an object when heat flows into it. As the heat raises the internal energy of the object, its molecules start moving more rapidly. The more he at an object has, the more disorderly its molecular pattern becomes. Science defines the amount of disorder in a system as entropy. Heat flowing from an object will decrease its internal energy, its amount of molecular disorder, and thus its entropy. The temperature of the object will usually change, according to the direction of heat flow, but not always. When an object changes its physical state (from solid to liquid to gas), energy, disorder, and entropy change, but the temperature will remain the sa me until the particular change of state is completed. As an example of heat content versus temperature see the following graph. (NOT INCLUDED) It shows how many BTUs are required to raise one pound of water from -4 F to 212 F at sea level (1 atmosphere). For comparison, kilocalories (1000 calories=1 kilocalorie) are also given. It takes 1 calorie to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water 1 degree Centigrade. Here we have converted it for you: 454 grams = 1 pound 454 calories = 1.8 BTUs 1.8/45 4 = 0.00397 BTUs in 1 calorie 454/1.8 = 252 calories in 1 BTU 252/1000 = 0.252 kilocalories in 1 BTU Note that there is no change in temperature until there is a change of state. Ice stays at 32 F until it is completely melted. To accomplish a complete change of state from ice to water requires 144 BTUs of latent heat. Now that the ice has completed its change to water, each added BTU will cause a rise in temperature of 1¡F, until the water reaches its boiling point of 212 F. At this point, 972 BTUs ar e required to complete another change of state from water to steam. The temperature, however, remains at 212 F until all the water has become steam. Once again, the temperature will start rising 1 F for each BTU added. There is one added requirement for the temperature of the steam to continue rising. Steam is water in its gaseous state. Were it not contained, this "water vapor" would simply expand and eventually recondense elsewhere. Therefore a high pressure vessel is needed to contain this expansio n. Now, any addition of BTUs to the vessel containing the steam will cause a corresponding rise in temperature. The water molecules within this steam now have a very high internal energy and they are moving at an extremely high rate of speed. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 23 7-14-91 09:17am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Understanding Heat 3 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR HOW HEAT TRAVELS Heat passes from one place or object to another by three methods: CONDUCTION is the movement of heat through a material without carrying that material along with the heat (that is, without changing the conducting materials physical structure). Exam ple: Heat a copper rod on one end only. The copper molecules in the heated end will start vibrating due to the increased internal energy. These vibrating molecules will strike unheated copper molecules next to them, transferring heat. This chain reaction will continue until the entire rod is heated. Note that the copper molecules themselves have not moved. It is only their internal energy bumping against each other causing the heat transfer. CONVECTION is the transfer of heat by movement of heated mat erial. Example: the suns rays hit the earth and heat it. The air next to the ground is heated by conduction. This heated air expands, becomes lighter, and rises. Cooler air, being denser and therefore heavier, will flow downwards to replace the lighter air. This process is called convection and the flow of heated air upwards is known as a convection current. Convection occurs in liquids as well: the bottoms of oceans, lakes, and rivers are the coldest. RADIATION--Conduction and convection transmit he at by particle vibration. Heat can also move through a vacuum which contains no matter. Heat can move as radiant energy. When this radiant energy strikes an object, the particles in that object speed up. An example of radiant heat, or infrared as scientists call it, is the heat striking the earth from the sun. Understanding basic heat definitions and the different ways heat moves will help us to better and more efficiently use it. In following issues, I will show you practical applications of the rule s of heat. I will compare methods of using and saving BTUs. Look forward to reading about solar heating, thermostats, stack robbers, methods of heating living space and water, BTU content comparisons of differing materials and lots more. Until then--stay warm, hopefully as efficiently as possible. Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 24 7-15-91 12:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don (and everyone) Re: steam Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR This is *GREAT*!!! This is the sort of echo for which I believe BBSing was intended!!!!!!!! I have become fascinated with the Tesla Bladeless Turbine. I have several tentative projects in mind for such a machine. I am having difficulty locating detailed information on this technology. Can anyone assist? Tom 'Bias-R-Us' Keller, INTEL Hater {80} --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 25 7-15-91 5:18pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: steam Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR > From: Tom Keller > To: Don (and everyone) > This is *GREAT*!!! This is the sort of echo for which I > believe BBSing was intended!!!!!!!! > Glad to hear it. That is exactly my feeling too. We've been "casting" around for some years looking for and hoping someone would start one. Our online bandwidth is too valuble to overlook such important topics such as this... > I have become fascinated with the Tesla Bladeless Turbine. > I have several tentative projects in mind for such a > machine. I am having difficulty locating detailed > information on this technology. Can anyone assist? > We have a text file on it here but it won't be much help. The International Tesla Society is located in Colorado Springs and they should be able to offer some help and reference material (don't have an address but directory assistance should be able to help - oops, no they couldn't, I tried). I have some catalogs from an outfit that offers all sorts of "old-time" technology books. I had planned to include some info on them here eventually because they have a lot of info on homebrewed homemade power. They had a series of books on Tesla's stuff which should probably be of help...will get the info in a day or three... Interestingly the Tesla turbines were first demonstrated in a power generation capacity (electrical). There is a company currently building them for specialized applications (primarily pumping I recall). One of the applications for them might tie into a pet project I've been wanting to try for at least ten years. I'd like to try using a solar tracker to carry a frenel (sp) lense focused on a steam boiler to drive a generator/alternator of some sort. I tried hand holding one with it's light focused on one of these small hobbyist steam engine kit's boilers once...it worked quite well. DCK P.S.-Edmund's Scientific offer the lenses in sizes up to about 30" square plus all sorts of other interesting bits (... I'll get the address for them too) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 26 7-15-91 7:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Windpower 1 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Wind Siting-Larry Elliott For many people the idea of producing household electrical power from a wind turbine is a romantic notion, a dream that rarely becomes a reality. Still for others, especially those living far from an electrical line or experiencing outrageous utility bills, it becomes a necessity. There are thousands of homes across the country now being powered by a wind turbine or combination of wind and other alternative electrical power inputs. Each installation's success or failure depends heavily on planning and correct installation. It is the critical planning and siting stage of an installation that will be discussed in this article. Cars, boats, planes, power plants or garden tractors, these all have something in common, they are machines that produce useable work or power by consuming a fuel. The amount of work they do or power they produce is directly related to their size and how much fuel is available for their consumption. In the case of a wind turbine, its fuel is the wind. The power available from any turbine is dependent on how much wind is available to drive the turbine. The quantity of wind is expressed in terms of wind speed or velocity. The higher the wind speed, the greater the potential output power we may expect from a wind turbine. In order to illustrate just how important this relationship between wind speed and power output can be, a little math and physics is in order. A formula that describes power to wind speed relationship in a wind turbine was developed in 1927 by a German scientist George Betz. This formula, P=1/2 ErAS3, states that the power available from a turbine is proportional to the cube of the wind's speed. In this equation P is the power produced in watts, E is the efficiency of the wind turbine in percent, Rho (r) is the density of air, A is area of the areo turbine in silhouette in square feet, and S is the wind speed in miles per hour. The power which can be expected from a wind turbine is equal to the efficiency of the turbine multiplied by the energy delivered per unit time by the wind to the turbine. The energy delivered per unit time is equal to 1/2 mtS2, where mt is the mass of the wind impinging on the turbine blades per unit time and S is the wind's speed. The quantity mt is equal to rAS. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 27 7-15-91 7:05pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Windpower 2 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR A combination of these two equation yields Betz's equation: P=1/2ErAS3. In an average form this equation can be reduced to P=0.0006137 AS3 , by assuming standard air density and normalized turbine efficiency. Basically all this math boils down to: the power available from the wind is proportional to the cube of its speed. As an example of this, let's assume we have a turbine that produces 100 watts in a 8 mph wind. At 16 mph you may expect this turbine to double its output to 200 watts, but instead it will produce over 800 watts. Thus it can be seen that a doubling of wind speed increases power available by a factor of eight times. A very small change in wind speed translates to a rather large increase in available power. A more dramatic look at this change would be the following. Assume that you have a wind turbine located at a marginally windy site that produces 100 watts in an 8 mph. If you had an increase in wind speed of only 1 mph your output would be 133 watts or an increase of 33%. Even a small changes in the annual average wind speed can determine whether or not your particular site is a cost-effective candidate for a wind power. Average wind speed is the critical factor that determines the economic effectiveness of wind machines. Let's look at some methods of determining wind speed. For those individuals who have lived for several years at a particular site, you probably have some idea of how often you have windy days. For instance, how many days per week do you experience winds that raise dust, extend flags and streamers, or blow paper and cardboard about the yard. These winds are usually in the area of 8-12 mph. Another good indicator of your average wind speed would be trees and shrubs permanently deformed in the direction of the prevailing winds. Normally and average wind speed of at least 10 mph is needed to cause permanent deformation. If your site exhibits these characteristics, then perhaps further investigation is warranted. For those of you who have a site that really couldn't be described as windy, based on these observations, an alternative to wind power should be considered. If you feel your site is windy, and you are serious about installing a wind turbine, there is no more accurate method of site assessment than to install a recording anemometer. In an area of the country such as the great plains states or along a sea coast, a check with the local weather station might be sufficient to determine average wind speeds. But in most cases, the anemometer is truly your only source of accurate information on average wind speed. Don't consider wind power without a thorough measurement of the wind speed at your specific location. A recording anemometer should not be confused with an anemometer which measures only instantaneous wind speed. Rather than measuring a wind speed at any given moment in time, a recording anemometer cumulative wind speed. It constantly records wind speeds as a numerical count and --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 28 7-15-91 7:06pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Windpower 3 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR speed. It constantly records wind speeds as a numerical count and then you simply need to divide this numerical count by the period of time over which you have been recording. This gives you an average wind speed over an extended period of time. In most cases, four months should be the minimum recording interval and one year is preferred. If you are going to spend a lot of hard earned money on a wind system, this extra eight months could mean the difference between a good investment and a bad one. Although a recording anemometer is a very accurate instrument, its output will only give you wind speeds at a specific location. In areas of rolling hills or tree cover, the wind speeds can vary 30% or more between sites only 100 feet apart. The location of an anemometer on a specific site, as well as height above the ground and any obstruction, is critical to recording the highest winds available. For those of you who may be living in a very flat and wide open area this may not be as critical, but in rough terrain turbine location is everything. Referring to Figures 1 and 2, you can see how terrain can have an effect on wind speeds at certain elevations. Figure 1 shows a percentage of maximum wind speed to be expected over smooth terrain. At less than 50 feet above the ground, over 70% of maximum winds can be expected. In Figure 2 we see that less than 10% can be expected at the same elevation when installed over rough terrain. On level land with no nearby obstacles, a 40 foot tower should be the minimum height for your anemometer or turbine. It is essential to measure windspeed at the actual height you plan on installing your turbine. Figure 3 illustrates a rule of thumb for tower height above obstacles and should not be ignored if maximum power is to be achieved. Remember, an increase of only 1 mph in wind speed gives a 33% increase in power. Obstacles or short towers are only robbing you of power. If you are considering placing your turbine on a hill to gain wind speed, you must be careful exactly where you place the turbine. Figure 4 shows the proper placement of towers on a hill. Place the turbine high enough on the hill to enter the smooth undisturbed windstream. As you can see the siting of a wind turbine is not a matter of simply erecting a tower and putting a generator on top. Only through accurate wind speed measurements on your particular site can you hope to install a wind system that is capable of supplying the power you need. If future articles we will look at methods of sizing your system and selecting a proper turbine output voltage. May your days be windy. Courtesy of and copyright by Home Power Magazine --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 29 7-14-91 8:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: DANE JASPER To: DON KULHA Re: LAPTOP 'PUTERS Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR >>P.S.-Just for curiosity I looked at the manual for the Conner 30104 >>IDE (they also make SCSI) hard drive. It's a 120mb, 18 millisec >>3.5", >>1" high hard disk. It's power consumption is stated as: >> read-write mode: 3.8 watts >> seek Mode: 3.9 watts >> idle Mode 2.8 watts >> That is pretty darn stingy power-wise...especially compared to >>this >>"beast" big Maxtor in the BBS (250mb) which uses about 50 watts.... Geez Don, we have 3 gigs worth of thouse things in our network, no wonder our power bill is so high!!! Well, hello all of you out there in new echo land from Exactus Info Service!!... Dane --- The Msg Mgr for TDBS * Origin: Exactus Info Service 707-524-2548, 9600:(125/2553) (1:125/2548) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2548 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 30 7-16-91 10:41pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Info Galore Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Folks I've been wading into the stuff Richard at Home Power mag sent us and am amazed at the treasure trove of information the text represents. We're still working on the text formatting (a little crude but serviceable) so the stuff going out into the echo lacks a bit. However it's all there, in ASCII and what the formatting lacks in polish the content makes up for in real-world, applicable, value. Bear with us...it will get better. For what it's worth, As a parallel project we're getting the PICT files that accompanied the text files converted over to .MAC (MacPaint) files which I believe are more useable to folks with a wider variety of computer types. Many of the texts refer to charts and drawing which unfortunatly can't be put in the echo. Those will be (all for the first 2 issues are now) available for download here. We hope others are interested in having the files (both text and pics) in other areas on their boards so that this stuff can get the greatest possible utilization. After we get the first five issues under our belt we'll holler and make 'em available for FREQ (FYI...we "zipped up" the first two issues, text and pics, and they totalled 400K+->140K though the issues got bigger fast after that). Tonight we're going to post Richard's initial articles on batterys, their use and selection. This is a good solid base on which to build your working knowledge of electrical storage whether you're interested in powering your toaster, your radios, repeater or running your computer. Read on and we'll let you know "watts" happening with batteries.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 31 7-16-91 11:21pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batterys 1 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Lead-Acid Batteries Richard Perez//In 1970, we realized that our dreams depended on cheap land. The only desirable property we could afford was in the outback. Everything was many miles down a rough dirt road and far from civilized conveniencies such as electricity. The 40 acres we finally bought is 12 miles from the nearest paved road, telephone, or commercial electrical power. We were ready to do without. This is not, however, an account of doing without-- it is a story of having one's cake and eating it too. We solved the problem of the rough road with a 4WD truck and countless hours of mechanical maintenance. The electrical power problem was not so easy to solve. We had to content ourselves with kerosene lighting and doing all our construction work with hand tools. The best solution the marketplace could offer was a motordriven generator. This required constant operation in order to supply power, in other words expensive. It seemed that in America one either had power or one didn't. We needed inexpensive home power. And we needed it to be there 24 hours a day without constantly running a motor. We decided on a 12 volt battery system. A lawnmower motor driving a car alternator recharges the batteries. To this we added a homemade control system. Later, we installed an inverter. We now have all the power we need, both 12 volts DC and 120 volts AC. This information on batteries is based on my over 17 years of actual experience with battery based alternative energy systems. Battery Terms// The battery is the heart of all alternative energy systems. A battery is a collection of cells which store electrical energy in chemical reactions. Not all batteries are the same. They have evolved into different types to meet different needs. We are primarily interested in the true "Deep Cycle" lead-acid battery. This type is the most cost effective for home energy storage. In order to discuss these batteries, we need to agree on certain terms. The more we know about batteries, the better we can use them, and the cheaper our power will be. Voltage: Voltage is electronic pressure. A car uses a 12 volt battery for starting. This voltage is the addition of the six lead-acid cells which make up the battery. Each individual lead-acid cell has a voltage (or electronic pressure) of about 2 volts. Commercial household power has a voltage of 120 volts. Batteries for alternative energy are usually assembled into packs of 12, 24, 32, or 48 volts. Current --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 32 7-16-91 11:22pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 2 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Current is the flow of electrons. The rate of this flow per unit time is the ampere. A car tail light bulb draws about 1 to 2 amperes. The headlights on a car draw about 8 amperes each. The starter draws about 200 to 300 amperes. Current comes in two forms-- direct current (DC) and alternating current (AC). Regular household power is AC. Batteries store power as direct current (DC). Power: Power is the amount of energy that is being used or generated. The unit of power is the Watt. A 100 watt lightbulb consumes 10 times as much energy as a 10 watt lightbulb. The amounts of power being used and generated determine the capacity of the battery pack required by the system. The more electricity we consume the larger the battery must be. The power source must also be larger to recharge the larger battery pack. Battery Capacity Battery capacity is the amount of energy a battery contains. This is usually rated in ampere-hours at a given voltage. A battery rated at 100 ampere-hours will deliver 100 amperes of current for 1 hour. It can also deliver 10 amperes for 10 hours, or 1 ampere for 100 hours. The average car battery has a capacity of about 60 ampere-hours. Alternative energy battery packs contain from 350 to 4,900 ampere-hours. The specified capacity of a battery pack is determined by two factors-- how much energy is needed and how long must the battery supply this energy. Alternative energy systems work best with between 4 and 21 days of storage potential. A battery is similar to a bucket. It will only contain so much electrical energy, just as the bucket will only contain so much water. The amount of capacity a battery has is roughly determined by its size and weight, just as a bucket's capacity is determined by its size. It is difficult to water a very large garden with one small bucket, it is also difficult to run a homestead on an undersized battery. If a battery based alternative energy system is to really work, it is essential that the battery have enough capacity to do the job. Undersized batteries are one of the major reasons that some folks are not happy with their alternative energy systems. Battery capacity is a very important factor in sizing alternative energy systems. The size of the battery is determined by the amount of energy you need and how long you wish to go between battery rechargings. The capacity of the battery then determines the size of the charge source. Everthing must be balanced if the system is to be efficient and long-lived. State of Charge: A battery's state of charge is a percentage figure giving the amount of energy remaining in the battery. A 300 ampere-hour battery at a 90% state of charge will contain 270 amperes-hours of energy. At a 50% state of charge the same battery will contain 150 ampere-hours. A battery which is dicharged to a 20% or less state of charge is said to be "deep cycled". Shallow cycle service withdraws less than 10% of the battery's energy per cycle. State of Discharge: State of discharge is the inverse of state of charge. A battery at a 90% state of charge is also at a 10% state of discharge. These terms are important. It is critical for users to know when the battery is nearly empty and should be charged. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 33 7-16-91 11:23pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 3 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR We also need to know when the battery is full and when it is time to stop charging. We must know the battery's state of charge (or discharge) in order to properly cycle the battery. Lead-acid batteries: Lead-acid batteries are really the only type to consider for home energy storage at the present time. Other types of batteries, such as nickel-cadmium, are being made and sold, but they are simply too expensive to fit into low budget electrical schemes. We started out using car batteries. Automotive Starting Batteries: The main thing we learned from using car batteries in deep cycle service is DON'T. Automotive starting batteries are not designed for deep cycle service; they don't last. Although they are cheap to buy, they are much more expensive to use over a period of several years. They wear out very quickly. Physical Construction: The plates of a car battery are made from lead sponge. The idea is to expose the maximum plate surface area for chemical reaction. Using lead sponge makes the battery able to deliver high currents and still be as light and cheap as possible. The sponge type plates do not have the mechanical ruggedness necessary for repeated deep cycling over a period of many years. They simply crumble with age. Types of Service Car batteries are designed to provide up to 300 amperes of current for very short periods of time (less than 10 seconds). After the car has started, the battery is then constantly trickle charged by the car's alternator. In car starting service, the battery is usually discharged less than 1% of its rated capacity. The car battery is designed for this very shallow cycle service. Life Expectancy and Cost Our experience has shown us that automobile starting batteries last about 200 cycles in deep cycle service. This is a very short period of time, usually less than 2 years. Due to their short lifespan in home energy systems, they are more than 3 times as expensive to use as a true deep cycle battery. Car batteries cost around $60. for 100 ampere-hours at 12 volts. Beware of Ersatz "Deep Cycle" Batteries After the failure of the car batteries we tried the so called "deep cycle" type offered to us by our local battery shop. These turned out to be warmed over car batteries and lasted about 400 cycles. They were slightly more expensive, $100. for 105 ampere-hours at 12 volts. You can spot these imitation deep cycle batteries by their small size and light weight. They are cased with automotive type cases. Their plates are indeed more rugged than the car battery, --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 34 7-16-91 11:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 4 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR but still not tough enough for the long haul. True "Deep Cycle" Batteries: After many battery failures and much time in the dark, we finally tried a real deep cycle battery. These batteries were hard to find; we had to have them shipped in as they were not available locally. In fact, the local battery shops didn't seem to know they existed. Although deep cycle types use the same chemical reactions to store energy as the car battery, they are very differently made. Physical Construction: The plates of a real deep cycle battery are made of scored sheet lead. These plates are many times thicker than the plates in car batteries, and they are solid lead, not sponge lead. This lead is alloyed with up to 16% antimony to make the plates harder and more durable. The cell cases are large; a typical deep cycle battery is over 3 times the size of a car battery. Deep cycle batteries weigh between 120 and 400 pounds. We tried the Trojan L-16W. This is a 6 volt 350 ampere-hour battery, made by Trojan Batteries Inc., 1395 Evans Ave., San Francisco, CA (415) 826-2600. The L-16W weighs 125 pounds and contains over 9 quarts of sulphuric acid. We wired 2 L-16Ws in series to give us 12 volts at 350 ampere-hours. Types of Service: The deep cycle battery is designed to have 80% of its capacity withdrawn repeatedly over a long period of time. They are optimized for longevity. If you are considering using battery stored energy for your homestead, this is the only type to use. Deep cycle batteries are also used for motive power. In fact more are used in forklifts than in alternative energy systems. Life Expectancy and Cost: A deep cycle battery will last at least 5 years. In many cases, batteries last over 10 years and give over 1,500 deep cycles. In order to get maximum longevity from the deep cycle battery, it must be cycled properly. All chemical batteries can be ruined very quickly if they are improperly used. A 12 volt 350 ampere-hour battery costs around $400. Shipping can be expensive on these batteries. They are corrosive and heavy, and must be shipped motor freight. "Deep Cycle" Lead-acid Battery Performance: The more we understood our batteries, the better use we made of them. This information applies to high antimony, lead-acid deep cycle batteries used in homestead alternative energy service. In order to relate to your system you will need a voltmeter. A Radio-Shack #22-191 Digital Multimeter (DMM) is a --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 35 7-16-91 11:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 5 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR voltmeter. A Radio-Shack #22-191 Digital Multimeter (DMM) is a good deal. An accurate voltmeter meter is the best source of information about our battery's performance. It is essential for answering the two basic questions of battery operation-- when to charge and when to stop charging. Voltage vs. Current: The battery's voltage depends on many factors. One is the rate, in relation to the battery's capacity, that energy is either being withdrawn or added to the battery. The faster we discharge the battery, the lower its voltage becomes. The faster we recharge it, the higher its voltage gets. Try an experiment- hook the voltmeter to a battery and measure its voltage. Turn on some lights or add other loads to the battery. You'll see the voltage of the battery is lowered by powering the loads. This is perfectly normal and is caused by the nature of the lead-sulphuric acid electrochemical reaction. In homestead service this factor means high powered loads need large batteries. Trying to run large loads on a small capacity battery will result in very low voltage. The low voltage can ruin motors and dim lights. Voltage vs. State of Charge: The voltage of a lead-acid battery gives a readout of how much energy is available from the battery. Figure 1 illustrates the relationship between the battery's state of charge and its voltage. This graph is based on a 12 volt battery at room temperature. Simply multiply the voltage figures by 2 for a 24 volt system, and by 4 for a 48 volt system. This graph assumes that the battery is at room temperature, and is at rest; it is not being either charged or discharged. After recharging, the battery must rest for 6 to 12 hours before the voltage measurement will accurately indicate the state of charge. While discharging it is sufficient to let the battery rest for 10 to 60 minutes before taking the voltage reading. Voltage vs. Temperature The lead-acid battery's chemical reaction is sensitive to temperature. The chemical reaction is very sluggish at cold temperatures. Battery efficiency and usable capacity drop radically at temperatures below 40¡ F. We keep our batteries inside, where we can keep them warm in the winter. Batteries banished to the woodshed or unheated garage will not perform well in the winter. They will be more expensive to use and will not last as long. The best operating temperature is around 78¡ F.. Lead-acid batteries self-discharge rapidly at temperatures above 120¡ F. Consider running your batteries within a temperature range of 55¡ F. to 100¡ F. Determining State of Charge with a Hydrometer: A hydrometer is a device that measures the density of a liquid in comparison with the density of water. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 36 7-16-91 11:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 6 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR The density of the sulphuric acid electrolyte in the battery is an accurate indicator of the battery's state of charge. The electrolyte has greater density at greater states of charge. We prefer to use the battery's voltage as an indicator rather than opening the cells and measuring the electrolyte's specific gravity. Every time a cell is opened there is a chance for contamination of the cell's inards. Lead- acid batteries are chemical machines. If their cells are contaminated with dirt, dust, or other foreign material, then the cell's life and efficiency is greatly reduced. If you insist on using a hydrometer, make sure it is spotlessly clean and temperature compensated. Wash it in distilled water before and after measurements. Rates of Charge/Discharge and Equalization Rates of charge and discharge are figures that tell us how fast we are either adding or removing energy from the battery. In actual use, this rate is a current measured in amperes. Say we wish to use 50 amperes of current to run a motor. This is quite a large load for a small 100 ampere-hour battery. If the battery had a capacity of 2,000 ampere-hours, then the load of 50 amperes is a small load. It is difficult to talk about currents through batteries in terms of absolute amperes of current. Battery people talk about these currents in relation to the battery's capacity. of charge and discharge are expressed as ratios of the battery's capacity in relation to time. Rate (of charge or discharge) is equal to the battery's capacity in ampere-hours divided by the time in hours it takes to cycle the battery. If a completely discharged battery is totally filled in a 10 hour period, this is called a C/10 rate. C is the capacity of the battery in ampere-hours and 10 is the number of hours it took for the complete cycle. This capacity figure is left unspecified so that we can use the information with any size battery pack. For example, consider a 350 ampere-hour battery. A C/10 rate of charge or discharge is 35 amperes. A C/20 rate of charge or discharge is 17.5 amperes. And so on... Now consider a 1,400 ampere-hour battery. A C/10 rate here is 140 amperes, while a C/20 rate is 70 amperes. Note that the C/10 rate is different for the two different batteries; this is due to their different capacities. Battery people do this not to be confusing, but so we can all talk in the same terms, regardless of the capacity (size) of the battery under discussion. Let's look at the charge rate first. For a number of technical reasons, it is most efficient to charge deep cycle lead-acid batteries at rates between C/10 and C/20. This means that the fully discharged battery pack is totally recharged in a 10 to 20 hour period. If the battery is recharged faster, say in 5 hours (C/5), then much more electrical energy will be lost as heat. The heating of the batteries plates during charging causes --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 37 7-16-91 11:27pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 7 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR heat. The heating of the batteries plates during charging causes them to undergo mechanical stress. This stress breaks down the plates. Deep cycle lead-acid batteries which are continually recharged at rates faster than C/10 will have shortened lifetimes. The best overall charging rate for deep cycle lead-acid batteries is the C/20 rate. The C/20 charge rate assures good efficiency and longevity by reducing plate stress. A battery should be completely filled each time it is cycled. This produces maximum battery life. We often wish to determine a battery's state of charge while it is actually under charge. Figure 2 illustrates the battery's state of charge in relation to its voltage for several charge rates. This graph is based on a 12 volt battery pack at room temperature. For instance, if we are charging at the C/20 rate, then the battery is full when it reaches 14.0 volts. Once again the digital voltmeter is used to determine state of charge without opening the cells and risking contamination. After several months, the individual cells that make up the battery may differ in their states of charge. Voltage differences greater than 0.05 volts between the cells indicate it is time to equalize the state of charge of the individual cells. In order to do this, the battery is given an equalizing charge. An equalizing charge is a controlled overcharge of an already full battery. Simply continue the charging process at the C/20 rate for 7 hours after the battery is full. Batteries should be equalized every 5 cycles or every 3 months, whichever comes first. Equalization is the best way to increase deep cycle lead-acid battery life. Battery voltage during the equalizing charge may go as high as 16.5 volts. This is too high for many 12 volt electronic appliances. Be sure to turn off all voltage sensitive gear while running an equalizing charge. The users of wind machines and solar cells are not able to recharge their batteries at will. They are dependendent on Mama Nature for energy input. We have found that all alternative energy systems need some form of backup motorized power. The motorized source can provide energy when the alternative energy source is not operating. The motorized source can also supply the steady energy necessary for complete battery charging and equalizing charges. The addition of a motorized source also reduces the amount of battery capacity needed. Wind and solar sources need larger battery capacity to offset their intermittent nature. Later in Home Power we will discuss making a very efficient and supercheap motorized 12 volt DC source from a lawnmower motor and a car alternator. Since most homestead battery packs are sized to last several days or weeks, the rate of discharge is not a concern. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 38 7-16-91 11:28pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 8 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR The same factors which limit the rate of charge also limit the rate of discharge. Deep cycle lead-acid batteries should not be repeatedly discharged at rates exceeding C/10. Self-Discharge Rate vs. Temperature: All lead-acid batteries, regardless of type, will discharge themselves over a period of time. This energy is lost; it is not available for our use. The rate of self-discharge depends primarily on the battery's temperature. If the battery is stored at temperatures above 120 F., it will totally discharge itself in 4 weeks. At room temperatures, the battery will lose about 6% of its capacity weekly and be discharged in about 16 weeks. The rate of self-discharge increases with the battery's age. Due to self-discharge, it is not efficient to store energy in lead-acid batteries for periods longer than 3 weeks. Yes, it is possible to have too many batteries. If you're not cycling your batteries at least every 3 weeks, then you're wasting energy. If an active battery is to be stored, make sure it is first fully charged and then place it in a cool place. Temperatures around 35¡ F. to 40¡ F. are ideal for inactive battery storage. The low temperature slows the rate of self-discharge. Be sure to warm the battery up and recharge it before using it. Battery Capacity vs. Age: Batteries gradually lose some of their capacity as they age. When a battery manufacturer says his batteries are good for 5 years, he means that the battery will hold 80% of its original capacity after 5 years of proper service. Too rapid charging or discharging, cell contamination, and undercharging are examples of improper service which will greatly shorten any battery's life. Due to the delicate nature of chemical batteries most manufacturers do not guarantee them for long periods of time. On a brighter note, we have discovered that batteries which are treated with tender love and care can last twice as long as the manufacturer's claims. If you're using batteries, it really pays to know how to treat them. Battery Maintenance: There is more to battery care than keeping their tops clean. Maintanence begins with proper cycling. The two basic decisions are when to charge and when to stop charging. Begin to recharge the battery when it reaches a 20% state of charge or before. Recharge it until it is full. Both these decisions can be made on voltage measurement and the information on Figures 1 and 2. These rules apply to deep cycle lead-acid batteries used in deep cycle service. 1. Don't discharge a deep cycle battery greater than 80% of its capacity. 2. When you recharge it, use a rate between C/10 and C/20. 3. When you recharge it, fill it all the way up. 4. Keep the battery at room temperature. 5. Use only distilled water to replenish lost electrolyte. 6. Size the battery pack with enough capacity to last between 4 to 21 days. This assures proper rates of discharge. 7. Run an equalizing charge every 5 charges or every 3 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 39 7-16-91 11:29pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Batteries 9 of 9 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR on Figures 1 and 2. These rules apply to deep cycle lead-acid batteries used in deep cycle service. 1. Don't discharge a deep cycle battery greater than 80% of its capacity. 2. When you recharge it, use a rate between C/10 and C/20. 3. When you recharge it, fill it all the way up. 4. Keep the battery at room temperature. 5. Use only distilled water to replenish lost electrolyte. 6. Size the battery pack with enough capacity to last between 4 to 21 days. This assures proper rates of discharge. 7. Run an equalizing charge every 5 charges or every 3 months, whichever comes first. 8. Keep all batteries and their connections clean and corrision free. More detailed information on all types of batteries and their usage in alternative energy systems is available in The Complete Battery Book (TAB Book #1757) by Richard A. Perez, its ISBN number is 0-8306-0757-9. This book is available from your local library, your local bookseller, or from TAB Books Inc., P.O. Box 40, Blue Ridge Summit, PA Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Originally published late Fall 1987 -Issue #1 (yes, we know, we "reposted" some extra lines from the previous post but that's to make sure you didn't miss anything important. Hey sysops,if any of these posts are overlong for the software you run (too many lines) please let us know!) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 40 7-16-91 11:49pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Skeptics... Re: Battery Powered Toast? Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Okay, I heard that snicker. Yes Martha there is such a thing as a toaster you can run off 12vdc...It's listed in the catalog from "Real Goods" (966-E Mazzoni St., Ukiah CA 95482 1-800-762-7325). It draws 13 amps at 12vdc...about 160 watts...reasonable since we're talking toast here which doesn't take long and presumeably it's powered by l-16's, not "C" cells. I could spare 10 watts for some hot toast to smear fresh peanut butter on! (hey, I was a bachelor for 37 years until Theresa happened by...peanut butter is a bachelors "survival food"!). P.S.-These folks also put out an AE Sourcebook which they call (rightly so) the encyclopedia of alternative energy. It's half catalog (over 3500 products) and half good hard info on AE. Well worth the $14 they get for it (which is refundable with order). Check it out! It's thick, and crammed with months worth of "brain food". --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 41 7-20-91 2:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Don, Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid battery is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a 12 volt ni-cad is actually 12 volts. *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more than it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the LCD display and its associated drivers. Check this out pretty carefully before you fry your new toy! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 42 7-20-91 9:59pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 1 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Seeking Our Own Level by Paul Cunningham // This second issue of Home Power Magazine gives me the opportunity as Hydro Power editor to wax philosophical. A chance to put aside thinking about the "hows" of generating electrical power from water and to reflect on the whys, by still waters, of course. Around a decade or more ago a certain realization was taking hold. Yes, we could escape the prescribed route of greater specialization, consumerism and urbanization that North American culture had mapped for us. The ultimate metaphor for carving out our new lifestyle from the social and spiritual wilderness was to generate our own electricity from wind, sun, and water. Home Power. We were and are literally putting the power back into our own hands. It was a matter of the amperage and the ecstasy. Becoming more conscious of our energy generation and consumption also brought the realization that we really needed very little electricity to be comfortable. So where are we now? This is difficult to assess since the people involved are by their situation a very decentralized group. Yet, I receive letters from all over the world from people who know something about head and flow, nuts and volts, and also from those who don't, but believe in the magic of turning water into electricity. The truth is, we are everywhere. We are part of an unnoticed, but vital and growing, network of people who are interested in generating their own power. And now this spectrum has broadened to a great degree. Reasons for small-scale power generation range from the practical (beyond the commercial power lines) to the environmental (small scale generation is less harmful than megaprojects or nukes). The original trickle of backwater hydro power enthusiasts has swelled. Water, of course, is not deterred by obstacles-- it flows over them, wears them down through time and seeks its own level. Something like this is happening with the alternative energy movement in general. The part that is successful has persevered and attracted a following on its own terms. A very --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 43 7-20-91 10:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 2 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR persevered and attracted a following on its own terms. A very interesting aspect of this movement is what can be offered to the developing countries. Progress does not have to mean expensive large projects and centralization of power generation. Individual people can master this simple, small scale technology. This mastery will dramatically change their lives. Just a little energy production can produce vast improvements in the quality of life. Alternative energy can provide lights for a village to work or read by, or power pumps to move water for drinking or irrigation, or power tools for cottage industries. The possibilities of alternative energy are endless and revolutionary. The surface has barely been scratched. So Let's Change... Clearly the world needs a new blueprint for development and change. Alternative energy is definitely part of this new blueprint. At least, there is now some groundwork in this field that proves its viability . This, alone, is an accomplishment. This magazine will help in a technological and philosophical exchange of ideas. Home Power is a forum for small scale alternative energy. Right now there is no other publication that seriously addresses the requirements and interests of people involved in personal power production. We need a higher profile if we hope to be one of the keepers of the light. It is unclear why home-sized water power, in particular, is so little known. It is true that other forms of comparable energy sources receive far more attention. The supreme reliability of photovoltaics and the romance of wind power are well established. Somehow the use of residential sized hydro-power has been largely overlooked. Part of this is likely due to the sound of the output figures. Although a water power system may produce 100 watts of power 24 hour per day, it sounds like so much less than a PV (or wind) system that has a peak output of 1,000 or 2,000 watts. Yet the water system could easily produce more total power output over a given time span. And be much cheaper. I read recently in a magazine (New Shelter) a comparison of three types of alternative energy systems. It was stated that "experts agree" that a hydro site capable of less than 500 watts continuous output is simply not worth bothering with. It is safe to say that a wind or PV system with this level of output would be at least a five figure investment. My own household operates on a maximum of 100 watts of continuous power input and runs quite successfully on less when water flow drops. Please understand that all forms of alternative energy technology are site specific. At any given location there may be compelling factors that favor one form. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 44 7-20-91 10:02pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Hydropower 3 of 3 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR This site specific nature still doesn't explain the low proliferation of water power. This discussion does not imply competition between the various forms of alternative energy. The situation is one of cooperation rather than competition. Many times more than one type of power generation can be used to produce a hybrid system that is both more reliable in output and more cost effective than a single source. The point being made is simply that the very useful source of water power should not be overlooked. So far no large business has attempted to develop the personal sized hydro market. The advantage to the small manufacturer like myself, of course, is that we can still remain in business. The small hydro market has such a low profile that raising it by any means would probably be helpful to all involved. At present, none of the few small manufacturers has the business machinery to aggressively promote their product or to greatly increase production if it was required. The industry is in its infancy. A Look Forward Improvements in magnetics and electronics make possible devices that would be a quantum leap ahead of the present day offerings. Higher-frequency generation using the new super magnets, coupled with solid state switching, could create cheaper and more efficient machines. Although more advanced machines are not strictly needed, a certain amount of R&D is necessary to produce any product. This will continue and is healthy for both the industry and the consumer. But thus far the machinery itself is not the limitation on its use. The consciousness of the market is controlling the growth of alternative energy at this time. This became very clear to me when I first started my business. Most of my sales went to the U.S. West Coast even though my location is in Atlantic Canada. The main work needing to be done is increasing the awareness of potential alternative energy users. So you corner the market. What if there is no market? I believe the market is unlimited but no one has noticed. This is certainly the case in developing countries. Most areas have little or no power. And these people are not likely to be reading our English language publication. So This Is The Challenge! To spread the word any and every possible way. This is why we are here with Home Power. Hopefully this will set in motion the realization that we (and our planet) will benefit more from small local power systems than the centralized capital-intensive types. Article Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine Originally published Jan-Feb 1988 Issue --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 45 7-21-91 10:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Steam Anyone? Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR I was wondering if anyone else here is intereseted in steam power? It occurs to me that it could be a worthwhile area to look into. Someone a while back entered a message with steam as the topic, inquired as to Testla turbine feasability and info but didn't mention it in the body of their message. I know that the Testla turbine was first used in conjunction with steam. I also was looking through some catalogs I keep at work (Lindsay's) for info to pass on to the fellow (coming up shortly) and did find references to it and a book with (I think) info that this chap wants. Interestingly enough there, next to the book listing, was a picture of a Testla turbine and a footnote about the picture saying it was courtesy of "Live Steam", a magazine I've seen at the local newsstand (bought a copy too and a friend quickly borrowed it). Anyway, Nickola Tesla demoed his turbine as a engine to drive an electrical generator...interesting. Whether one used Tesla's turbine or some other type of steam engine I'm sure interested in the possibility of harnessing solar energy to heat a boiler to generate electrical power or compressed air (or to pump water, or....). You might even be able to use some of the by product (steam) for distilled water (just dandy for batteries eh?). Might be a nice alternative to a generator burning fossil fuels for some applications and you could steam your veggies at the same time! (grin). Even non-solar steam could be interesting in the AE scheme of things.....Hmmmmmm..... DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 46 7-21-91 11:22pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 1 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Build Your Own 12 VDC Engine/Generator by Richard Perez This small, easy to build, generator is the answer to a burning AE question. What do we do when the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow, and the creek dries up. This generator is a back up power source for times when our AE sources don't meet our demands. It is optimized to do only one thing-- properly recharge batteries. Engine/Generator Overview Before we actually discuss the construction of this engine/generator, let's examine the job it is designed to do. It is the nature of this task that determines the various design decisions we need to make when constructing this back up generator and its control system. Source Capacity Every AE system should have at least one power source capable of recharging the batteries at between C/10 to C/20 rates of charge. For example, a battery pack of 700 ampere-hours periodically needs to be recharged at a minimum of 35 amperes (its C/20 rate). To figure the C/20 rate for your pack simply divide its capacity in Ampere-hours by 20. The resulting number is the C/20 rate in Amperes. The C/20 rate is the minimum necessary for equalizing charges. If the batteries cannot be equalized they will fail more rapidly. Power Source Control Most energy sources that charge batteries need to be controlled. If the charging source is not controlled, then the batteries may be overcharged or charged too rapidly. They can be ruined. The most common method of control is voltage regulation. This works fine in cars and in batteries with shallow cycle, float service. Voltage regulation alone is not enough for deeply cycled batteries. They must also be current regulated to prevent too rapid recharging. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 47 7-21-91 11:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: generator 2 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Voltage Regulation Voltage regulation only is OK for batteries that are very shallowly cycled. In shallow cycle service the battery refills almost immediately since it has only had a small amount of its energy removed. In deep cycle service the batteries have had about 80% of their energy removed before recharging. If deep cycle batteries are recharged from a source that is voltage regulated, they will be charged at the total output current of the source as it struggles to bring the batteries immediately to the set voltage limit. If the charging source has say 55 amperes available, then it will charge the batteries at this 55 amp. rate. If the battery is a 100 ampere-hour battery, then the C/10 rate for this battery is 10 amperes. The 55 amperes from the source would recharge the 100 ampere-hour battery at a rate over five times faster than it should be charged. This will result in premature battery failure, higher operating costs, and much lower system efficiency. Constant Current Constant current charging means that the batteries are recharged at a fixed amperage rate until they are full. The voltage of the batteries is left unregulated until the batteries are full. The rate of charge is usually between C/10 and C/20. Constant current charging assures that the batteries are not charged too rapidly. Rates of charge greater than C/10 produce heat which can warp the heavier plates of the deep cycle batteries. Too rapid recharging wastes energy in heat, and gradually ruins the batteries. Solar Cells and Wind Machines It is easy not to put up enough wind or solar to do the job. Wind and solar sources are currently expensive enough that the tendency is not to buy enough power to adequately run the system and recharge the batteries. If you are running stand alone wind or solar sources be sure that they can deliver at least a C/20 rate to your batteries. Wind and solar systems also need a motorized backup to provide constant, on demand, power for equalizing charges. Motorized Powerplants The motorized plant is reliable, high in power, and relatively cheap to purchase. The motorized source has the distinct advantages of delivering large amounts of power when you need it. This is very different from wind and solar systems, where you have to take it when you can get it. Its major disadvantage is that it requires fuel. Motorized sources do not usually suffer from being undersized. If the power source is capable of delivering between C/20 and C/10 rates of charge to the batteries, then the system is happy. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 48 7-21-91 11:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 3 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Lawnmower Engines and Car Alternators The idea here is to use a lawnmower engine (or other small horizontal shaft motor) to drive an automotive alternator. The alternator puts out between 35 and 200 amperes (depending on its size) of 12 to 18 volt DC energy to charge the batteries. The first engine we used actually came from an old lawnmower we bought for $35. We got a 35 ampere Delco alternator from a dead Chevy in the junkyard for $15. We bolted the entire works to a thick wood slab, and used an old oven heating element as a crude resistive field controller. The unit ran and charged our 350 ampere-hour battery for 2 years before the motor died. Type and Size of Motor We've since tried many different combinations of motors and alternators. Small gas motors between 3 and 8 horsepower are ideal for this job. We found that the Honda small engines will run about 5,000 hours without major work, Tecumseh engines about 800 hours, and Briggs & Stratton engines about 600 hours. The Honda also has the advantage of a 100 hour oil change interval, compared with 25 hours for both the Tecumseh and the Briggs & Stratton. If you consider the operating life and operating cost of small engines, then the higher quality units are much less expensive in spite of their higher initial cost. The engine's size is determined by the size of the alternator. This assures a balance between system efficiency and cost. A 35 ampere alternator can be driven by a 3 hp. motor. A 100 ampere alternator needs at least a 5 hp. motor. For alternators between 100 and 200 amperes use the 8 hp. motor. Type and Size of Alternator Just about any automotive alternator will work in these systems. What really counts is the size of the alternator. Its current output (amperage rating) should be sized to match the capacity of the battery pack. The more capacity the battery pack has the bigger the alternator which charges it must be. The alternator must be able to deliver at least a C/20 rate of charge to the batteries. We have had good results with 35 ampere Delco alternators for battery packs under 700 ampere-hours. Batteries up to 1,400 ampere-hours are fed with the 100 ampere Chrysler alternators. Packs larger than 1,400 ampere-hours should have a 200 ampere rated alternator. The higher amperage alternators are measurably more efficient than the smaller ones. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 49 7-21-91 11:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 4 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR The higher amperage alternators are more difficult to find. Try your local auto electric shops, they may have a source for these high amp jewels. Regular alternators up to 70 amperes are usually available from junkyards at less than $20. Alternator rebuilders can provide rebuilt units from $40. to $150. These alternators are a good investment. They are designed to run under the hood of a hot car on a Summer's day. In the type of service we give them they run cool and last a very long time. I've seen these alternators last over 10 years with just the replacement of bearings and brushes. The more modern alternators contain their voltage regulators within the alternator's case. These internal regulators need to be disabled before these alternators are useful in this system. If you can't do this yourself, then take the alternator to an alternator shop for help. Some alternators have what is known as an "isolated field", these need to have one field lead grounded and simply feed positive energy to the other field lead. The older Delco types are very simple and straight forward to use, they require no modification. Getting it all together- Assembly We originally bolted both the alternator and the motor to a wooden slab about 16" by 24" and 4 inches thick. Be very careful on this step. If the motor pulley and the alternator pulley are not properly aligned, then the unit will wear belts out very rapidly. These units work best on heavy metal bases. There is a lot of vibration and the wooden slabs give up after a few years. Either add a sheet of 1/4" to 3/8" steel between the wood and the motor/alternator, or make the base completely out of metal. A local welding shop made us a base out of 3/8" steel plate with a welded 1" by 2" steel square tubing perimeter for $50. You can see it in the photograph. If you can weld the materials cost about $18. INSERT FIGS 1 We coupled the alternator to the motor with an "A" sized Vee belt. Keep the belt length to a minimum by mounting the motor and alternator close together. We use belts between 28 and 33 inches in total length. The stock pulley on the alternator works well. The best sized motor pulley is between 5 and 6 inches in diameter. This pulley ratio gears up the alternator for better efficiency while allowing the motor to run about 2,200 rpm. We have had very poor results with the lightweight cast aluminum pulleys. These light pulleys were not up to the job and broke frequently. We're now using cast and machined iron pulleys (such as the Woods SDS pulleys) that work very well and are extremely rugged. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 50 7-21-91 11:28pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 5 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Use heavy bolts with lock washers to secure everything to the base. Be sure to get the alternator turning in the right direction. Electrically it makes no difference, but the alternator's fan is designed to suck air from the back of the alternator and to exhaust this air in front around the pulley. If the alternator's fan is running backwards then the alternator will overheat when heavily loaded. Use large wire to hook up the output of the alternator. Something between 6 gauge and 2 gauge is fine, depending on the length of the runs. Locate the motor/alternator as close as possible the batteries. This keeps power loss in the wiring to a minimum. Consult the Basic Electricity article in this issue for details. Control Systems The first motorized charger we built worked fine, but we had problems controlling it. We were using a stock car voltage regulator. It wanted to charge the batteries far too quickly; in many attempts the large load stalled the motor. We have experimented with many forms of control for the alternator and have finally arrived at several which work well. All alternator controls work by limiting the amount of power supplied to the alternator's rotating magnetic field. All alternator control starts with controlling the field's energy. Car Voltage Regulators Car voltage regulators will not work well in deep cycle applications. The regulator makes its decisions based only on the system's voltage. This is fine with the average car battery which is cycled to less than 1% of its capacity before being refilled. The deep cycle battery, however, is almost empty when it is recharged. The car voltage regulator attempts to instantly bring the system's voltage to about 14 volts. A 12 volt deep cycle lead-acid battery will not reach a voltage of 14 volts until it is almost filled. The net result is that the car regulator dumps the entire output of the alternator into the batteries until they are full. This is most always too much energy too fast for a fully discharged battery. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 51 7-21-91 11:29pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 6 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR To compound the problem, the car regulator's voltage limit is set too low for deep cycle service. This low voltage limit means that the batteries are charged too slowly when they are almost full, resulting in many extra hours of generator operation to totally fill the battery pack. Since the car regulator is set at about 14 volts, we are unable to raise the system voltage up to over 16 volts for the essential equalizing charges. Resistive Field Controller The simplest and cheapest form of alternator control is to use resistance to limit the amount of energy that is fed to the alternator's field. The idea is very simple, insert resistance between the battery's positive pole and the wire feeding the alternator's field. Resistance in the neighborhood of 2 to 25 ohms works well. Adjust the resistance until the charge rate into the battery is between C/20 and C/10. The less the resistance in the field line, the higher the amperage output of the alternator. Originally we used a nichrome wire heating element from an old electric stove as a resistor. We used more or less wire (hence more or less resistance) with a wire clip lead. It worked fine. A better resistor to use is a 0 to 25 ohm rheostat (an adjustable power resistor) rated at least 25 watts. This allows smooth adjustment of the alternators output. Figure 2 shows the wiring hookup for a resistive field controller. INSERT FIG 2 Using resistive field control produces a system which is current regulated only. The resistive circuit does not provide any form of voltage regulation. When the batteries are full the system voltage can get very high, over 16 volts. Voltage this high can damage 12 VDC appliances that are on line at the time. The highest voltage for most 12 volt equipment is 15 volts. If you are using resistive field control, be sure to monitor the system's voltage and reduce the current output of the alternator to keep the system voltage under 15 volts when appliances are being used. Mk. VI Electronic Field Controller We eventually solved the problem of control by designing a series of electronic field controllers that regulate both the amperage and the voltage of the alternator. With this electronic field control, we simply set the desired charge rate, and set the system's voltage ceiling. The battery is recharged at a constant rate until it is full. When the batteries are full, the voltage limit predominates and the system is voltage regulated, thereby protecting the batteries from overcharging. And also protecting all electrical equipment on line. The amperage output is adjustable from 0 to the full rated output of the alternator. The voltage limit is adjustable from 13.5 volts to 16.5 volts. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 52 7-21-91 11:31pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: all Re: Generator 7 of 7 Attr: Net Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR For the intrepid electronic builder, this electronic field controller's schematic is illustrated in Figure 3. This field controller uses off the shelf parts available at Radio Shack. Printed circuit boards, kits, and completed field controllers are available from the Electron Connection Ltd., P.O. Box 442, Medford, Oregon 97501. Complete installation and operating instructions are included. Write for more info. INSERT FIG 3 Using a Motorized Source for Equalizing Charges The motorized source is the best type to use for the equalizing charges. Its voltage output is capable of being adjusted to over 16 volts in order to accomplish the equalizing charge. The motorized source is capable of delivering a C/20 rate of charge for the least 7 continuous hours necessary for battery equalization. Remember the batteries must already be full before the equalizing charge is started. Users of solar and wind systems should consider constructing a lawnmower powerplant just to equalize their batteries. The very nature of wind and solar energy makes it very difficult to equalize the batteries without such a motorized power source. This generator makes excellent backup power for times when Mother Nature isn't cooperating with our energy demands. Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine From Issue #2, Jan-Feb 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 374/17 SEEN-BY: 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 53 7-22-91 11:48pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Lou Schneider To: Don Kuhla Re: Real Goods Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Don, are you familiar with Real Goods Trading Co. in Ukiah? They publish the Alternative Energy Sourcebook, a 400 page manual that also doubles as a catalog for the products they carry. It's $14, refundable with your first $100 order. One gem in there is Thomas Glover's _Pocket Ref_, a comprehensive pocket sized reference book. Included is everything from compressed airand gasses to automotive, carpentry and masonry, element tables, Epson printer codes, wire and screw sizes, math, general sciences, glue, hardware ... the list goes on and on. Real Goods Trading Co. 966 Mazzoni St. Ukiah, CA 95482 (707) 468-9214 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 54 7-23-91 11:00am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Steam! Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, you know?) As for the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, I suspect that it would not run well on anything but steam, and (just possibly) compressed air. I know we used to use a large air compressor to turn over the 2500BPH triple-expansion, dual reciprocating steam power plant about the S.S. Jeremiah O'Brien when we aere servicing her. Did you know that *EVERYTHING* about a Liberty Ship was steam driven? There were in excess of 40 steam enginers aboard a Liberty! This included the main enginer, the electrical generators (3, each with it's own single cylinder steam plant), the cargo winches, the steering mechanism (yes, a steam powered, 4 cylinder servomechanism!), water pumps, air pumps, you name it! Pretty neat. Steam is a clean, simple technology (of course, the cleanliness of it depends on the source of heat). Steam is reliable, efficient and *FUN*. It is also tricky, and can be *EXTREMELY* dangerous! For example, a boiler with a 1000 gallon water capacity, operating at 150 pounds of pressure, is one INCREDIBLE bomb! Consider that when steaming, there are 145.25 cu. ft. of water at approximately 275 degrees F. Should anything breach the boiler shell and release the pressure, that water will flash into steam in something like 1.5 milliseconds, and will rather suddenly occupy *1800 TIMES* it's initial volume, or some 261,458 cu ft.!!!!!! That's 9683.6 cu yards! Steam explosions are, to say the least, spectacular! For this reason, water-tube, as opposed to fire-tube boilers are much safer. In the event of a leak, the boiler is self-quenching. Moreover, there is less metal surface exposed to a dangerous combination of high temperature *AND* high pressures. While a water-tube boiler can still explode, it is much less likely, and generally somewhat less violent (water tube boilers hold less water per pound of steam per hour capacity). Then again, you just haven't *LIVED* until you've had to re-pack a steam throttle valve while there's 100 PSIG of live steam flowing through the line! Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 55 7-23-91 5:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR > Original Message Date: 23 Jul 91 11:00:24 > From: Tom Keller > To: Don Kulha > *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! > (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, > you know?) > I'm possibly becoming a convert there too. It might just have some practical applications in alternative energy systems. Now granted, the conference isn't just on AE but also on personal power production. Still it behoves us to look at alternatives to gas fired backup generators. They have their place certainly but we should look down every avenue to find ways of avoiding their use. Solar produced steam could be ideal. Part of the reason folks have the gas fired generators is that sometimes the sun ain't out, the wind doesn't blow and you don't have any hydro potential. I suspect, though I don't have the hard data to back it up, that it's better for the enviornment to get a 1000 btu from your wood lot than from Standard Oil. > As for the Tesla Bladeless Turbine, I suspect that it > would not run well on anything but steam, and (just > possibly) compressed air. I know we used to use a large air > compressor to turn over the 2500BPH triple-expansion, dual > reciprocating steam power plant about the S.S. Jeremiah > O'Brien when we aere servicing her. > I found the catalogs a few days back....Lindsay's Publications (POB 583, Manteno IL 60950 (815)468-3668) puts out several catalogs full of interesting low/hi tech stuff. The two catalogs of theirs I have (Electrical Books/Technical Books) are fascinating. A lot of the stuff relates to old technology and how to do it yourself. Their electrical books catalog lists a phamplet titled "Tesla: The lost inventions" featuring data on several devices including the bladeless turbine. I ordered three books/phamplets from them today...the one just mentioned plus one on building copper-oxide solar cells and another on windmills. There are a couple sketchs in the catalog of the Tesla turbine which have whetted my curiousity. They look simple to make so after I get the book one of the machinists at the lab and I will probably build a small one to experiment with (using a bunch of scrap 5.25" diameter aluminum disk platters for plates). > > Steam is a clean, simple technology (of course, the > cleanliness of it depends on the source of heat). Steam is > reliable, efficient and *FUN*. It is also tricky, and can > be *EXTREMELY* dangerous! > Yep, as per my observations above it may be a great way to break reliance on fossil fuels for some apps. The Edmunds scientific catalog lists one freznel lens (about 3 feet sq.) as generating over 2000 deg. F at it's focal point so at some point short of that focal point might be a good place to focus it on a heavy copper block attached to the boiler to focus the light on. I'm only thinking about about building a small 2-3hp engine at this point and this might do it dependant on the efficency of the boiler/engine combo. The co-generation possibilities also have me fascinated. > > For this reason, water-tube, as opposed to fire-tube > boilers are much safer. In the event of a leak, the boiler > is self-quenching. Moreover, there is less metal surface > exposed to a dangerous combination of high temperature *AND* > high pressures. While a water-tube boiler can still > explode, it is much less likely, and generally somewhat less > violent (water tube boilers hold less water per pound of > steam per hour capacity). > > Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, > Steam Enthusiast! > I'll confer with you later on in my project. Borrowed a book on building various sterling and steam engines and boilers today. I need to do a lot of research and procede cautiously when it comes to the actual steam generation. Water @ 275 deg. F and 150 PSI expands to steam volumetrically at a rate of 1800:1? Wow! Sounds like theres some real useable power there! Thanks for the info....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 56 7-24-91 7:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 1 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Trace Inverter Model 1512 Test Environment-- We tested the 1512 at our site located about 12 miles from any commercial utilities. This place has been totally powered by alternative energy since 1976. Photovoltaics and motorized generators (both 12 VDC and 120 VAC) are the power sources. We hooked the 1512 inverter to 2 Trojan L-16W batteries (350 ampere-hours at 12 volts) for the test period. The 1512 was wired to the batteries with 0 gauge copper cables with a combined length of less than 6 feet. The inverter is used to power a variety of test equipment, computers, printers, power tools, kitchen appliances, and some lighting. The 1512 was constantly monitored by a DC powered oscilloscope (fully isolated from the 1512's output by its own internal battery power supply), a DVM, and an analog expanded scale AC voltmeter during the entire testing period of three weeks. Packing, Installation Instructions, and Owner's Manual The unit was packed very well and survived UPS shipping. The shipping container is first class. We first turned our attention to the installation instructions, and operator's manual. It is well written, very thorough, and has a folksy flavor that is refreshing. The short form for immediate hookup is a very good idea for impatient customers. All the instructions are clear and concise. No one should have any trouble installing or operating the model 1512. All that is necessary is to read the manual. The manual is very detailed in comparison with those of other inverter manufacturers. It may be a little too technical for some, but it is good to see this information available to the users. The discussion of the various types of loads and how they function on this inverter is very good, and will help non-technical users understand such things. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 57 7-24-91 7:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 2 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Inverter Operation The 1512 powers inductive loads better than any inverter we have ever used. Regardless of size or type of load (we tried all kinds), the inverter was very consistent in its output waveform. We saw on the oscilloscope that we could not get the inverter's waveform to go out of the modified sine wave mode. This is amazing and almost unique. The Trace is very different from some inverters, which put out a wide variety of glitchy waveforms on inductive loads (especially small ones). The Trace 1512 inverter powered inductive loads such as fluorescent lights, stereos, TVs, satellite TV systems, sewing machines, computers, and motors better and quieter than many other modified sine wave inverters. Our inductive AC equipment happily consumed the power made by the 1512. One very dramatic case was our computer equipment. This computer equipment has had problems with overheating when powered by other inverters. It ran much cooler on the 1512. The Trace inverter is among the most efficient types we have tested. The 1512 met Trace's specs for efficiency. The 1512 inverter produced noticeably less heat when powering large inductive loads. For example, we used a large 720 watt vacuum on the inverter. When powered by another inverter this vacuum began serious overheating after only 20 minutes of continuous usage. The inverter itself was also very warm. When the vacuum was run on the Trace 1512, neither it or the 1512 showed any appreciable heating after over 2 hours of continuous operation. The 1512 has excellent voltage regulation and is within Trace's specs. Regardless of load size, load type, temperature, and battery voltage, the 1512 did not vary over 2 volts (measured by us) in its AC output voltage. We tested the inverter on input voltages from 11 to 15.3 VDC. Temperature ranged from 10¡ C. to 40¡ C. Loads ranged from 25 watts resistive to 1.2 kW. inductive. Trace has really accomplished a great deal in the area of voltage regulation. Trace's digital approach to inverter design has produced an incredibly stable inverter. We were not able to measure any deviation from 60 cycles in all our testing. This is a big plus for anyone powering TV, video equipment, or audio equipment from an inverter. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 58 7-24-91 7:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Trace Inverters 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR The 1512 met Trace's specs. for power output. We repeatedly tried to overload the Trace inverter, but we couldn't kill it. The 1512 protected itself from any damage due to overloading. We tried resistive and inductive loads up to 3kW, with starting surges over 10kW. In the past, inverters would not survive being so grossly overloaded. Battery Charger Operation The battery charger was a very pleasant surprise. Not only is it easily user programmable, but its range of operation is much greater than anything else available. The 70+ Ampere current output of the 1512's charger is nearly twice as powerful as any comparable unit. The battery charger's voltage output can be set high enough to fully recharge deep cycle batteries. The Trace 1512 is the only inverter/charger we've seen that can effectively cycle the batteries; it is unique. The Trace is the best for operation with a motorized generator. The 1512 will recharge the batteries faster than any other type of inverter/charger we've ever seen. This results in less generator operating time, and greater fuel economy. The programmable nature of the charger makes overcharging or too rapid charging of the batteries impossible. The 1512's current output was very constant over the entire recharging voltage range of our test batteries. Inverter to generator automatic changeover is smooth and positive. The Trace 1512 has the best built-in battery charger in the industry. On the down side... It was very difficult to find anything to complain about with the Trace 1512. The only feature we didn't like was the inverter's audio buzz. This audio noise is loud enough that the inverter should be located where no one will have to listen to it. A little noise is a very small matter in comparison with the inverter's many fine points. Conclusion The Trace 1512 is one of the finest modified sine wave inverter available. We found that it meets all of Trace's specifications. It is as far ahead of other inverters as a Corvette is from a Model T. The 1512 is the first inverter to combine digital technology with ease of use, efficiency, and sheer toughness. The list price of $1,310. (with optional charger) is in line with the 1512's superb performance. We are recommending the Trace 1512 as an excellent buy. You can get more info on the 1512 from Trace Engineering Inc., 5917 195th NE, Arlington, WA 98223, or phone 206-435-8826. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Originally published December 1987, Issue #1 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 212/5 226/70 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 59 7-21-91 09:40am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Tom Keller Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR > > Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a > lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid > battery is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a > 12 volt ni-cad is actually 12 volts. > > *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more > than it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the > LCD display and its associated drivers. Check this out > pretty carefully before you fry your new toy! At least *some* laptops have a "12 volt power cord" available to plug into a vehicle's cigarette lighter socket. The voltage from that source will be from a bit over 12 volts to as high as 15 volts (engine running). One might assume that the laptop is capable of handling that variation. Matter of fact, if you measure the "AC adaptor" output voltage, you'll find that many aren't regulated *at the adaptor*, and are considerably higher than the nominal rating. One caveat: If you plug a laptop into a vehicle's lighter socket, turn it off and unplug it while you start the engine. The inductive kick-back from the starter motor and solenoid can put a very high-voltage spike on the system, and that could be very hard on your laptop. <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 226/70 232/10 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 60 7-22-91 5:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Home power magazine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR Don, Where can I obtain this Home Power magazine? I've never seen it on the stand at B. Dalton, for instance... Thanks!! <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 151/1000 226/70 232/10 282/95 SEEN-BY: 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 117 7-26-91 11:25am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Lou Schneider Re: Real Goods Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Don, are you familiar with Real Goods Trading Co. in Ukiah? > They publish the Alternative Energy Sourcebook, a 400 > page manual that also doubles as a catalog for the products > they carry. It's $14, refundable with your first $100 i called them this morning and they said they would send me a free catalog. i dont know if it is the same as the 400 page manual that you mentioned. i probably would have paid the $14 for the book you mentioned, but the free catalog might be a good start for somebody who would not pay the $14. so for you free catalog seekers, that number again is: > > Real Goods Trading Co. ... > (707) 468-9214 thanks much for the info, lou! cheers, michael --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 118 7-26-91 11:31am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Tom Keller Re: Steam! Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > *STEAM* I am an absolute *FANATIC* about STEAM!!!!!! > (Well, OK, maybe I'm just highly enthusiastic, but really, > you know?) > What a surprise! I don't know if you remember, Tom, but we had some mutual friends for awhile about 15 years ago. I am still enjoying the book you gave me on the Discipline of Programming, by Dijkstra, and still consider buying rice in 100 pound bags, when possible. I just picked up this echo because I have a strong interest in generating electricity from solar powered steam, and I appreciated your examples of the power and flexibility of steam power. It's great to see a familiar name from long distance in an unexpected place on the net. If you want to chat about old times, you can netmail to me at 119/ 4, (pgp key available by file request as humanity.pub) or look me up in the phone book. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 119 7-26-91 12:23pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I found the catalogs a few days back....Lindsay's > Publications (POB 583, Manteno IL 60950 (815)468-3668) I called this company, and the new number is 815-935-5353. Unfortunately, the steam power book is now out of print. > There are a couple sketchs > in the catalog of the Tesla turbine which have whetted > my curiousity. They look simple to make so after I get > the book one of the machinists at the lab and I will probably > build a small one to experiment with (using a bunch of > scrap 5.25" diameter aluminum disk platters for plates). I have been looking around in the library for several weeks now, but there seems to be a dearth of information about relatively small steam turbines. The closest thing I could find would be about $10,000, and require superheated steam to avoid erosion of the blades by condensate. The Tesla Bladeless Turbine sounds like just what I've been looking for! If it is that easy to build, it couldnt be too expensive. I am extremely interested in any further info you could possibly post here, or mail to me (pobox 4096 chico, ca 95927) or fax to me (916- 891-0502) or anything else you could think of. I would gladly pay postage/phone charges or whatever. From some articles I have read, apparently its not too hard to create a focusing reflector by stretching mylar into the propper shape using a small vacuum pump. A group of these collectors on on a framework not much larger than than average satalite tv dish (ie: backyard sized) could easily produce enough steam to drive a 10Kw generator, which is more than enough for the average household, with air-conditioner running. In the area where I live the utilility company (PGE) is required by law to purchase any extra electricity (up to 100Kw) at about $.04/Kwh, so a solar generator of this type might even find use in areas readily accessable to utility power, purely on economic grounds, considering the size of our monthly household power bill as an example case. Wouldn't it be nice to turn that bill into a check? michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 120 7-27-91 10:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex nozzles Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Interesting, a windmill could drive such a thing? And then the cold air gets used like in refrigerater? And the hot air,what do we do with it, pipe it to Sacromento to keep the Politicians going? (haha) but really, a windmill can run an air compressor, and compressed air can be put through a longish tube.. (I think) but then we have a wind powered refrigerater, and that can't really be practacle. Humm though what about doing it with a thicker fluid? Like water? Would it be possible to heat water (from a stream for example) as preheating hot water system? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 121 7-27-91 10:41pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: Home Power Magazine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>At least I already have a start on a 12 volt system. I GB>already have a bank ofsix 12 volt deep cycle batteries tht i GB>use in my camper. I often am using the camper for 5-6 days GB>with no recharges so I want enough batteries when I am on the GB>road. It would not take much more to build a off grid system. GB> GB>--- ConfMail V3.31 GB> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 GB>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Good quality deep cycle batteries can easily be 1/2 the cost of an off grid system! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 122 7-27-91 10:47pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yeah you've probably got something there! Computer (and all) power supplies are not 100% efficient. For example, if we get 60% efficiency from a power supply we are doing reasonably well. In theory, 80% is achievable..So for 50 watts in (the hard drive you mentioned) only 25-30 gets to the drive. And that is probably regulated on board so that only 10-15 watts is actually used by the integrated circuits and motor. Running batteries (12 volt system) it seems possible to bypass all the DC to AC, AC inverter..etc. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 123 7-27-91 10:53pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Cheering article Don, but as with almost everything, $$$ rules and the central power plant (and hydroelectric dams) that produce power some distance from users (in cities) requre High Voltage lines in order to transport the power, there is just no other way to do it Possibly roof solor cells if efficient, or something like that will come in someday but even so, in order to have enough power to run a sawmill (for example) a lot of power is needed and that means high voltage lines...because it is cheapest. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 124 7-27-91 10:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex Tubes Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It is an attractive idea... --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 125 7-27-91 10:59pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: System Review 1 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yeah, the inverter type system is really plug in compatible with lots of things..lights, tvs,..etc. and it is the least efficient system too. Even though the inverter may be state of the art and 95% efficient, the appliences designed to work from 120VAC are mostly power dissapaters. For example incadescent lights are really good space heaters. Flourescents are better but the ballest makes a lot of heat too. And refrigerators or washing machines...whew! Whereas 12 Volt appliences are designed (generally) to be powermisers --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 126 7-27-91 11:03pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: System Review 4 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In general it sounds like a generator system with a photovoltaic trickle charger on the batteries. That's all the 4 panels can really do for the batteries...but it costs gas to charage batteries and something like a 10 foot windmill in their location (mountains) would be a good investment, expecially if homemade! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 127 7-27-91 11:05pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: steam Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * In a message originally to Don (and everyone), Tom Keller said: TK> This is *GREAT*!!! This is the sort of echo for which I TK>believe BBSing was intended!!!!!!!! TK> TK> I have become fascinated with the Tesla Bladeless Turbine. TK>I have several tentative projects in mind for such a machine. TK>I am having difficulty locating detailed information on this TK>technology. Can anyone assist? No but can you describe a bit of this Tesla Turbine please? sounds interesting..would it work in moving water or wind or is tempreture a necessary component? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 128 7-27-91 11:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Windpower 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Might be worthy of mention, a good way to know how much wind a site receives is to look around, especially at nearby trees. Flagging or the absense of limbs from on side of (or several sides or) a tree are good indicaters of wind. For a typical pine or fir tree, 25% flagging means enough wind to put in a windmill.... --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 129 7-27-91 11:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Windpower 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ One more thing Don, and I ask because you have posted some expertise in this area...do you know of a method to get 60 Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 130 7-27-91 11:16pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Laptop 'puters Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * In a message originally to Don Kulha, Tom Keller said: TK>Don, TK> TK> Be damned careful of hooking up your 'puter to a TK>lead-acid battery! A so-called "12 volt" lead-acid battery TK>is actually 13.2 volts at full charge, while a 12 volt ni-cad TK>is actually 12 volts. TK> TK> *SOME* circuitry may find that extra 10% of EMF more than TK>it can handle. I am thinking in particular of the LCD TK>display and its associated drivers. Check this out pretty TK>carefully before you fry your new toy! TK> TK>--- ConfMail V3.31 TK> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 TK>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) I think that's right! Lead-Acids can be as much as 15.5 Volts, depending on their design etc. And there is the potential to make a very simple 'power supply' from very few components for computer use I'm thinking of a three terminal, large transistor looking thing that accepts +12.2 to +18 on one leg, ground on another leg and puts out +12 volts DC on the third leg..these are darn cheap and there is probably one in most computers as a final regualtor (within the computer case). There is one for +12 and one for +5 in my C=64. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 131 7-27-91 11:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Trace Inverters 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I've found the Heart Inverter (out of Washington State) to be very good. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 132 7-28-91 10:15am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Home power magazine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Don, > Where can I obtain this Home Power magazine? I've never > seen it on the stand at B. Dalton, for instance... > That's not too suprising. I know it does make it to some news stands but don't know where. The best way is to get a subscription which is quite reasonably priced; 6 bi-monthly issues yearly for $10 mailed 3rd class. Their address is: Home Power Magazine, POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044 (916)475-3179 voice phone. It is professionally printed, runs around 100 pages (8X11") and has been published since 1987. It is a tremendous asset for folks interested in small scale alternative energy systems and personal power production. The emhasis is on residence sized systems and hands-on engineering. No pie in the sky stuff here...just good practical information. I tend to rave some about this publication. I should say that the only connection I have with them is that they've served as inspiration,are rooting us on in this echo and have supplied us with the text from the first five issues (we'll get the stuff from issues 6-11 in a couple weeks when I see them at the Solar Expo and Rally). One reason I'm so "high" on them is that Home Power mag has kinda served as a "rallying point" for the small scale alternative energy movement. They give encouragment and PR to regional, national and international groups and events and are "real" and very dedicated folks. Check it out, I'm sure you'll be pleased....I subscribe and it's the best money I've ever spent on a subscription. You can't find the type of "real-world" info they publish anywhere else..... DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 133 7-28-91 10:34am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Real Goods Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > i called them this morning and they said they would send me > a free catalog. i dont know if it is the same as the 400 > page manual that you mentioned. i probably would have paid > the $14 for the book you mentioned, but the free catalog > might be a good start for somebody who would not pay the > $14. so for you free catalog seekers, that number again is: > > Real Goods Trading Co. > > (707) 468-9214 Michael, I can tell ya that they put out a 3-4x yearly catalog that definitly isn't the large sourcebook they sell for $14 (refundable with order). The big volume lists a lot more stuff and is about 50% good in depth information about AE . You'll find the catalog you're getting fascinating and after reading it will most likely want the larger volume. Getting the free catalog is an excellent move though....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 134 7-28-91 10:50am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > The Tesla Bladeless Turbine sounds like just what I've been > looking for! If it is that easy to build, it couldnt be too > expensive. I am extremely interested in any further info > you could possibly post here, or mail to me (pobox 4096 > chico, ca 95927) or fax to me (916- 891-0502) or anything > else you could think of. I would gladly pay postage/phone > charges or whatever. > The turbine might be what you're looking for after all. First off I'm going to build a small working model to initally be powered by compressed air for testing purposes. I'll post info on it here in a month or so after we do the engineering study (don't want to blow this thing up by over-reving it...aluminum rotors may not work). We're going to analyze it's efficency pretty carefully and luckily I have some high powered engineers interested in this who will be modeling this for me. I don't know that condensate will be a problem beyond normal oxidation...they use these things as pumps commercially. My most likely problem will be keeping the rotor disks together at 30k/rpm and keeping bearings in it. I may need to make some hardened stainless steel disks and get special bearings and lubricants. Will keep you posted... > to create a focusing reflector by stretching mylar into the > propper shape using a small vacuum pump. A group of these > collectors on on a framework not much larger than than > average satalite tv dish (ie: backyard sized) could easily > produce enough steam to drive a 10Kw generator, which is > more than enough for the average household, with > air-conditioner running. In the area where I live the > utilility company (PGE) is required by law to purchase any > extra electricity (up to 100Kw) at about $.04/Kwh, so a > solar generator of this type might even find use in areas > readily accessable to utility power, purely on economic > grounds, considering the size of our monthly household power > bill as an example case. Wouldn't it be nice to turn that > bill into a check? > Yes, it's truely amazing how much energy actually falls on the surface of the earth courtesy of the sun. My project has two power sources in mind...wood and solar (I want something besides solar for when the sun doesn't shine as backup). I think that steam generation is going to be a lot stickier for me than building the turbine but then it's a well known technology which just requires a bit of reserch on my part. I'm with you though...it would be beautiful to generate electricity using sunlight, water and some mechanical bits. I have a pile or aluminum sheets that got a special thin film coating to make them 99% reflective in the visual wavelegnth EM range which I plan to play with in addition to trying freznel lens as a concentrator. A few years back I was experimenting with a solar air heater which I used some of these in. To keep this short I screwed up and used wood as the back and part of the framing. Some of these panels were added as "wings" to concentrate a bit more energy on the collector itself. I finished it late one eve and went to bed. The next morning I found the prototype collector where I'd left it on the lawn with smoke pouring out of the exhaust ports! I judged my solar collection experiment a sucess but never had a way to apply it to the rented house I lived in. Then I built a curved wood framework, put some of these thin aluminum reflectors on it and placed a 15 gallon drum (painted with a selective black coating) in front of it. Got the water up to a simmer in spite of the very crude hack that it was. Yep, there's definitly enough energy incoming to make some steam! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 135 7-28-91 11:31am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Vortex nozzles Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:40:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Vortex nozzles > Interesting, a windmill could drive such a thing? > And then the cold air gets used like in refrigerater? And Well, I've yet to build anything but am dying to try it out. I know that the nozzles do work and just yesterday I saw a lot of windmills (old fashioned types) which I know were used for pumping water. I'd assume if you can use one to pump water you could use one to run a small compressor. If the cold output side of the nozzle were plumbed into an old refridgerator's cooling coils I would think that the -30 deg. F cold air would have to cool it down. The caveat is that these nozzles are not very efficient in the usual sense if one had to generate electricity or burn fuel to operate a compressor but if one had sufficent wind, hydro or steam power for the compressor it MIGHT be practical. It would be great to get away from using freon in our refridgeration systems (air conditioners/refridgerators) which is rapidly destroying the ozone layer above us. As mentioned before I was just musing on the possibilities but I sure hope to get a chance to try this out! > the hot air,what do we do with it, pipe it to Sacromento to > keep the Politicians going? (haha) but really, a windmill > can run an air compressor, and compressed air can be put > through a longish tube.. > (I think) but then we have a wind powered refrigerater, and > that can't really be practacle. Humm though what about > doing it with a thicker fluid? Like water? Would it be > possible to heat water (from a stream for example) as > preheating hot water system? > --- The hot air output side of the nozzle could have many applications. It could be used for heating water or to help drying produce (fruits/veggies/jerky). I seem to recall the hot side temp as being at about 170 deg. F which would be a shame to waste. As to using water, well, I don't know if the nozzle system could be re-engineered to use it. However if one were to exhaust either side of the nozzle into the bottom of a water tank the heat/cold is going to be transfered to the fluid as it rises through it. I was concentrating more on the cold side of the equation since solar heat seems very easy to do and I am worried about the CFC/atmosphere problems. As to whether any of it is practical...hopefully I'll find out! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 136 7-28-91 11:59am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:53:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Cheering article Don, but as with almost everything, $$$ > rules and the central power plant (and hydroelectric dams) > that produce power some distance from users (in cities) > requre High Voltage lines in order to transport the power, > there is just no other way to do it Possibly roof solor > cells if efficient, or something like that will come in > someday but even so, in order to have enough power to run a > sawmill (for example) a lot of power is needed and that > means high voltage lines...because it is cheapest. > --- I can appreciate your point there and am quite aware of Ohm's law and it's implications...one needs a lot more conductor to move the same amount of energy through it at low voltage (thinking in terms of Pressure) than at higher voltage. I also know about the benefits of AC for moving power long distances. Still the article I quoted did point out the usefulness and some good points of using low voltage DC at the point of power production. Now if one needed 200 KW of electrical power it would be a little difficult to do that onsite with photovoltaics for an industrial plant, especially if it ran 24 hours a day. Big utility hydro would be cheaper and maybe more practical. No, I think that the article and most of the discussion here relates to personal power production and small scale sytems...most of which would be on the order of 5-10kw a day or less. Good point though. Now if TI's new "bubble cells" prove practical and the cost per watt of produced power can be gotten down to a dollar a watt or less (currently at around $6 a watt) for an installed system then maybe we'll see solar being used a lot more for non-remote systems. For a lot of folks paying $20,000 just to get power to their homesite makes solar and other alternative technologies very attractive. At least now solar is far cheaper than atomic power which (hopefully) will turn that technology into a dinosaur....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 137 7-28-91 12:21pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: System Review 1 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 22:59:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: System Review 1 of 4 > Yeah, the inverter type system is really plug in compatible > with lots of things..lights, tvs,..etc. and it is the least > efficient system too. Even though the inverter may be state > of the art and 95% efficient, the appliences designed to > work from 120VAC are mostly power dissapaters. For example > incadescent lights are really good space heaters. > Flourescents are better but the ballest makes a lot of heat > too. And refrigerators or washing machines...whew! Whereas > 12 Volt appliences are designed (generally) to be powermisers > --- Well put sir! Luckily there are some folks/companies out there making extremely efficient and misery refridgerator and washers. Home power mag had an excellent article on retrofitting washing machines to use up to 70% less energy without reducing performance. Hopefully I'll get that article soon to post here. Sunfrost in Arcata makes some extremely efficient refridgerators available in 12vdc, gas fired and 110vac models. I think that super insulation and mounting of the motors and compressors on top of the cold box as opposed to underneath it (heat rises) along with very efficient motors make the difference. Of course they are pretty pricey too (2-3X "normal" prices) but if one is producing their own power which is pretty pricey itself the super efficient appliances can make of ton of sense even at elevated prices. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some good hard data to post here....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 138 7-28-91 12:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: System Review 4 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 23:03:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: System Review 4 of 4 > In general it sounds like a generator system with a > photovoltaic trickle charger on the batteries. That's all > the 4 panels can really do for the batteries...but it costs > gas to charage batteries and something like a 10 foot > windmill in their location (mountains) would be a good > investment, expecially if homemade! > --- I don't recall the article well right now but 4-50 watt PV panels doesn't sound like a lot. It depends on what you're using though. I dug out my Real Goods AE sourcebook and it tells me that while a normal refridgerator uses about 3000 watts per day to run a 12vdc Sunfrost 12 cu. foot model only uses 350 watts! Assuming the folks quoted in the article have 4 50 watt panels that produce power for an average of 5 hours a day thats about 1000 watts. Three times what the refridgerator uses leaving about 600 watts. You can run a lot of 15 watt lights off that, a 12v Color TV VCR (12vdc-about 70 watts with the tape running), radios, sewing machines, etc. You really can do an amazing amount with small amounts of power with efficient appliances, especially when you adopt a new mind-set because you've gotta produce the power yourself. I'd never dream of using a 1500 watt waterbed heater if I had to make the power myself, nor would I burn 230 watts an hour to run this BBS 24 hours a day. I'm still on the grid but I want off bad...the BBS is going to go on a crash energy diet shortly! (and now I know what do do with those old 65watt IBM PC power supplys I've been replacing with 150's for folks!). With a good battery bank you can run an energy deficit for sometime before having to fire up the generator. If you have a 350 amp hour 12volt battery bank thats 3500 watts (derated 20% per normal). If your energy shortfall is 350 watts/day over what your AE source is and you only cycle the battery bank down to a 50% charge (a good number) you could run 5 days before firing the generator up for an hour or two (say while running the washer to wash clothes) to top off the batterys. One of the nice things about PV panels is that they are modular...you can add them as needed (providing that the pocket book can afford them...a 50 watt PV panel usually runs around $330 bucks)...Most folks size their PV arrays a bit small and plan on charging (generators are cheap) when they need to run a heavy load (table saws, planners, welders) that they need the generator for anyway.....DCK P.S.-And yes, the idea of burning gasoline to power my home bugs me too. That's why I'm so interested in steam engines (either wood or solar powered) right now. I'll no doubt keep a gas generator around when I get off the grid (as a last gasp backup) but I'm sure gonna try to obsolete that sucker! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 139 7-28-91 2:13pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: battery pack Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ You refered to L-16 batteries. What are they? the batteries I have are plain old lead-acid deep cycle size 27 batteries parralell conected for 12 volts, nominal. I charge them off the tow vehicle alternator and occaisionaly run a complete discharge/recharge cycle or two. Makes a big difference in usable charge. When I run the cycle, I am at home and use a 110 charger. I am a ways from Sonoma county !!! I live near Custer, South Dakota, which is in the Black Hills of western South Dakota. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 170 7-28-91 9:19pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Wind/AC Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Jul 91 23:10:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > One more thing Don, and I ask because you have posted some > expertise in this area...do you know of a method to get 60 > Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? > --- Me? expertise? Naw.....I'm a relative newcomer to the AE field myself (but I'm darn good at research and engineering). I have read references to wind generators directly supplying 120vac but don't have any info handy. Usually folks run their wind generators at 12 or 24 volts to charge battery banks and invert it back up to 120vac which gives you the benefit of stored power when the wind isn't blowing. I have read of folks inverting the power at the tower site to AC to cut transmission losses and allow them to use a smaller gauge wire to move higher voltage up to the site of their main system/battery banks. I think you almost have to have batteries in the loop somewhere for a practical system. I believe the folks at Bergy Windpower are the acknowledged experts in the field and claim to have sold more wind power systems in the 1-10kw range during the past decade than anyone else in the world. They are located at 2001 Priestly Ave., Norman OK 73069, (405)364-4212 (voice) or (405)364-2078 (fax). My area of expertise relates to extra-terrestial solar cell cover applications...not too similar to the type of AE we're usually speaking of here. Just to be upfront I am an alternative energy enthusiast and have been studying the field for about 10 years and have done some experimentation. I can usually dig into my reference materials and come up with useful info for folks but always defer to the folks in the industry with extensive real-world experience when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of system integration. Glad I can be of some help though when possible.....DCK P.S.-The "expertise" of which you speak was probably that of the articles author....The folks at Home Power mag generously sent us the text of many of their articles to post here. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 171 7-28-91 9:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: L-16's Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gale, the l-16's that Terry refers to is a somewhat "generic" reference to a particular size/output and form-factor of battery commonly purchased from the Interstate Battery company or the Trojan Battery Company in San Francisco. They are a very robust heavy duty battery intended for deep-cycling service, come as 6 volt, 350 amp/hr units. They measure about 12" long X 7" wide X 16" tall, are ungodly heavy and cost around $175 each. They can last up to 7-10 years given proper care and no discharged too deeply (say 50% or so). They're very popular and give good service in AE applications. Your group 27 batteries probably aren't going to hold up too long my friend. Even the so called "deep cycle" group 27's are usually not up to the rigors of AE system use unless you cycle them very shallowly. Interstate makes a group 27 (#27-SRM) that puts out 95 amp/hours and will probably last 3-5 years. Next time you need batteries consider the L-16's, they seem to be the best bang for the buck as far as I can tell....DCK P.S.-Forgot to mention (though ya probably figured it out) that one wires 2 L-16's in series to get 12 volts and more pairs in parallel to up the amp hour capacity. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 172 7-29-91 3:32pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Not having read more than the info file on the Tesla turbines, I am not certain, but from what I read, the Tesla turbine is NOT a high speed turbine. Also, I don't think that testing it with compressed air is going to give you much in the way of meaningful data, as the performance with steam will be considerably different. Would be interested in participating more directly in your expreimentations. Gimme a jingle, ok? Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 173 7-29-91 4:51pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 15:32:28 > From: Tom Keller > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Re: Steam Power > > Not having read more than the info file on the Tesla > turbines, I am not certain, but from what I read, the Tesla > turbine is NOT a high speed turbine. Also, I don't think > that testing it with compressed air is going to give you > much in the way of meaningful data, as the performance with > steam will be considerably different. > > Would be interested in participating more directly in > your expreimentations. Gimme a jingle, ok? > I'm not sure about speeds myself other than knowing that the moving steam or air column in the turbine takes a longer path the higher the RPM goes increasing the efficency. I have heard that some of Tesla's turbines were spun up to the neighborhood of 80,000 RPM (at which point I believe it exploded). One of the engineers at the lab has been doing some calcs for me and it seems that at about 3,600 RPM the aluminum rotors I was considering using would explode (6" dia.). I'll probably be going to a hardenable grade of stainless steel for the experimental model's rotors. I believe that the turbine would work far better on steam than compressed air but since air is easier for me to get it will be the first phase test medium. At that point if it shows any promise at all I'll try the next phase on steam power. Initally I'll be contacting a retired steam buff from the lab to use his rig and later consider building or buying a boiler set-up. I appreciate the point you made about about fuels and pollution. My root interest in this project isn't the turbine although I do find the idea and the simplicity of it beautiful. My primary goal is to create a solar powered boiler to drive an engine to make electrical power with a minimum of pollution. I may end up not using the turbine at all and am researching piston style steam engines in parallel with the turbine project. I want to make energy with an absolute minimum of pollution so that I'll have a backup source of energy to PV's, wind or Hydro when I make my move off the grid. If the solar heated boiler proves practical (and I have every reason to believe it will) I would still have a wood-fired boiler in tandem with the solar powered one. One of the reasons folks living off-grid often have gas-fired generators is that sometimes there isn't enough solar, wind, or hydro power available to charge the batteries. Proper system design should minimize the need for carbon-dioxide producing power generation. It's definitly one of my goals here but if I have to fallback on burning wood a couple times a year I won't feel too bad. I'd probably have a gas fired generator too in mothballs (on the off chance an emergency came up and it was needed). Since we're on the subject of pollution here I'll ramble for a moment. A part of my "dream" AE system entails having a small "uphill" pond to act as sort of a battery in conjunction with "micro" or "nano" hydro power. Wind or steam power might be an excellent way to pump water uphill into a pond without first converting the energy into electricity. Then, given enough head to create water pressure and a small hydro generator or alternator I'd have clean power on demand. Wind and hydro are a lot cleaner in terms of their overall enviornmental impact as opposed to photovoltaics. Having an aqueous "battery" of sorts would also minimize the size of the battery bank one would need for their rural homesite...and most batteries contain some toxics we'd do best to minimize the use of. Even considering the negative impact of PV's and/or batteries and/or burning wood to fire a boiler they've got to be far lesser impacts than another Rancho Seco or Three-Mile Island atomic plant.....DCK P.S.-Will keep your kind offer of assistance in mind Tom. May need assistance when I get around to the steam plant phase of the project assuming I get that far (...which is likely...). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 174 7-30-91 12:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Lou Schneider To: Terry Olsen Re: Windpower 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > ...do you know of a method to get 60 Hertz, 120 VAC from a windmill? I've never tried this, but if you excite the field of a commutator-type DC generator with an AC signal, you should get an AC output that's locked to the excitation signal, not the rotational speed. Voltage would be controlled in the normal manner, varying the excitation voltage to control the output voltage, just like a DC generator. I can think of several possibilities - use a small inverter to excite the generator and get large quantities of stable AC whenever the wind blows. Or use a sample from the PG&E grid and your wind generator will be phase locked to PG&E (I think this is how commercial wind generators feed back into the grid). Or if you're using steam or hydro to power the generator run the turbine at the most efficient speed for the load that's on it, and vary the field to control the output. You wouldn't have to keep the speed at a constant 1800 or 3600 RPM. One disadvantage would be the maintenance of the commutator and brushes. Of course, to minimize brush wear you could apply the excitation to the armature and take the output from the stator coils. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 175 7-29-91 06:18am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Don Kulha Re: L-16's Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The batteries I have are Interstate 27 type and have given me good service for about 4 years now. I do not pull them down too heavily and about every 5-6 months I put a load on them and draw them down completly and then recharge. It takes about 7-8 days to run them down and recharge at least twice. This was the interstate rep's suggestion for lopngest battery life at meximum storagew capacity. He said they have to be completly cycled just like a ni-cad. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 176 7-29-91 10:26am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Steam! Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Michael, You will have to tell me which city you are in if I am to look you up in the phone book. I have no access to private netmail. tom --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 177 7-29-91 12:48pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters 1 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Power Inverters by Richard Perez // The modern power inverter has revolutionized the usage of battery stored electrical power. An inverter changes the low voltage DC energy of the batteries into 120/240 volt, 60 cycle, AC housepower. Just like the energy available downtown. The idea here is to use the battery stored energy in regular household appliances. The low voltage DC supplied by the batteries will not run standard consumer appliances, which accept only 60 cycle, 120/240 volt, AC power. Until the advent of modern inverters, battery people had to content themselves with 12 VDC appliances. These are specialized and very expensive. In many cases there are no 12 VDC appliances made for a particular job. The inverter has changed this; now battery users can run just about any standard commercial appliance. In practical terms, the inverter allows us to run electric drills, power saws, computers, printers, vacuum cleaners, lighting, food processors, and most electrical appliances that can be plugged into the wall. If the battery/inverter system is big enough, then large appliances such as freezers, refrigerators, deep well pumps, and washing machines can be accommodated. All these standard 120/240 volt AC appliances can be powered from the batteries by using the appropriate inverter. The inverter draws its energy from the batteries, it does not require any other power source. Inverter operation is quiet and its power is available 24 hours a day, whenever it is needed. The addition of an inverter to a motorized system greatly improves the system efficiency. Power costs can be cut to 25 cents on the dollar by using an inverter instead of constant generator-only operation. The generator can be run for only several hours per week, but the inverter's 120/240 VAC power is constantly available. It is simply not efficient to run a large generator for a few lights and maybe a stereo. The generator is used to recharge the batteries, and to power large intermittent loads. This approach results in the generator being run more heavily loaded, where it is much more efficient. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 178 7-29-91 12:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters, 2 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Different Types of Inverters Inverters are manufactured in 3 basic types. These types are named for the kind of power they produce. The question is, "How close does the inverter come to reproducing the waveform of standard commercial power?" There are trade-offs involved in inverter design. The more closely the inverter replicates commercial sinusoidal power, the less efficient the inverter becomes. This is a sad, but true, fact of physics. As the primary power source, efficiency is a very important factor in inverter operation. When we consider running large appliances such as freezers and washing machines on battery stored power, even small percentages of wasted energy are not acceptable. Battery stored energy is simply too expensive to waste. Square Wave Of all types of inverters, the square wave inverter produces power that least resembles commercial power. This inverter is the cheapest type to buy. It will not run many appliances which require cleaner forms of power. Stereos, televisions, computers, and other precision electronics will not accept square wave power. The power produced by square wave inverters varies considerably with the voltage changes of the batteries as they are discharged. These inverters are designed to be inexpensive, and as such their efficiency is low, less than 70% when fully loaded. If the square wave inverter is only partially loaded, its efficiency drops to less than 30%. These inverter cost about $0.50 per watt and are available in sizes up to 1,000 watts. The square wave inverter is not suitable for homestead usage. It is neither efficient or versatile enough. Modified Square Wave The modified sine wave inverter represents a compromise between efficiency and utility. The modified sine wave inverter is the best type to use in home power service. This type of inverter is capable of powering almost all commercial electrical appliances, even very delicate electronics such as computers. The power this inverter produces is not identical to commercial power, but it is close enough to fool almost all appliances. The efficiency of the modified sine wave inverter is the highest of all types of inverters, in some cases consistently over 90%. For example, we use a 1,500 Watt Trace Inverter. This inverter is over 90% efficient at power output levels between 100 and 600 watts. Its no load power consumption is less than 1 watt. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 179 7-29-91 12:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: all Re: Inverters, 3 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ We leave it on all the time, ready for instant service. We have yet to use an appliance that will not accept its modified sine wave power. The inverter is fully protected against overloading. It even contains a circuit that prevents overdischarging of the batteries. The output power of the Trace inverter is very clean, far cleaner and more dependable than commercially produced electricity. These inverters are also available with built-in battery chargers. The battery charger senses when you have turned on the AC powerplant and recharges the batteries. It also automatically transfers the household to generator produced power, and returns the household to inverter power when the motorized powerplant stops. cost of modified sine wave inverters is about $1.00 to $1.50 per watt. This type of inverter is available with output wattages between 300 and 25,000 watts. In most cases, the inverter is capable of surge wattages about 3 times its rated output wattage. Many of the larger modified sine wave inverters have outputs of both 120 and 240 volts AC. This surge capability is very important when powering large motor driven appliances such as refrigerators, washing machines, and deep well pumps. Sine Wave Inverters The sine wave inverter exactly duplicates the sinusoidal waveform of commercially produced power. It accomplishes this at the expensive of efficiency. The sine wave inverter is necessary only for very delicate electronics. These inverters are usually sold to hospitals, airports, and government installations. They are the only ones who can afford to buy them and run them. Efficiency for sine wave inverters is less than 60% at optimum loading. At light and heavy loads the efficiency drops to less than 30%. These inverters are expensive, around $2.50 per watt. The sine wave inverter is not suitable for homestead power, it is too expensive and inefficient. Inverter Sizing Modern power inverters are available in many sizes. The process of determining the right size for a particular homestead can be confusing. The process is really simple-- just make a survey of all the appliances you wish to run from inverter supplied power. List each appliance, its rated wattage, and the number of hours per day that the appliance will be operational. It is best to allow each person in the household the usage of a light-- one person,one light. We seem to average about five hours of lighting per day. If this estimation process is to be effective all appliances must be included, be realistic. Be sure to allow some margin for future expansion. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 180 7-29-91 12:51pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: all Re: Inverters 4 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Average Consumption Put a star beside all appliances that are required to operate at the same time. Include in this starred list all appliances with automatic controls, for example refrigerators and freezers. Add the total wattage of all the appliances on the starred list. This wattage figure is the smallest amount of power that will do the job. The inverter must be sized larger than this figure if the system is to work as planned. If the inverter is undersized, it may shut itself off due to overloading and leave you in the dark. The wattage of each appliance multiplied by the number of hours per day it is operational gives an estimate of energy consumption in watt-hours per day. This figure is used to determine the capacity of the battery pack necessary to do the job. Surge Consumption Appliances which use electric motors require more power to start themselves than they require to run. This high starting power consumption is called starting surge. Many motorized appliances require over 3 times as much power to start than to run. These starting surges must be considered in sizing the inverter's wattage. If these surges are not allowed for then the refrigerator starting up may overload the already loaded inverter and shut it off. Most power inverters worth having are capable of delivering 3 to 5 times their rated wattage for surges. If there are several large motors in the system that may start themselves, then the situation becomes more complex. For example, consider a system where both the deep well pump and a refrigerator are being used. Both the pump and the refrigerator may turn themselves on at the same time. The resulting surge demand may be high enough to shut down the inverter. It is best to assume that all appliances on automatic control are starting at the same time. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 181 7-29-91 12:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Inverters 5 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Add their surge wattages and be sure this figure is less than the surge capability of the inverter being considered. Inverter Wiring The inverter's output should be wired into the house's main distribution panel. A quick reference to books on house wiring will aid you in getting the power into the house with low loss and safety. Remember that all the power being used in the house is traveling through these connections-- use big wire (6 to 2 gauge) and low loss connections. AC Wiring One of the major attractions of inverter produced power is that it is at normal 120/240 voltages. This is very important when placing older homes on alternative energy. The wiring within the walls is designed for 120 volt operation. It has too much power loss to be used with low voltage DC energy directly from the battery. The wiring, switches, outlets, and all their interconnections have too much resistance to efficiently transfer the batteries' energy directly. DC Wiring- Battery to Inverter Connection The wiring that supplies the energy from the battery to the inverter is of critical importance and deserves special attention. These wires must be capable of transferring over 200 amperes of current efficiently. This means that the wiring must have very low resistance-- use 0 to 000 gauge copper wire. Keep the length of these heavy gauge wires to an absolute minimum. Most inverters are located within five feet of their batteries. The actual connections on the battery terminals are subject to corrosion. It is common practice to use battery cables from automobiles. These cables have ring connectors mechanically crimped to their ends. The sulphuric acid in the batteries eventually corrodes the mechanical connection between the actual wire and its ring connector. If a more permanent connection is desired, make your own connectors by soldering copper tubing over the ends of the heavy wires. Flatten this assembly and drill the appropriate hole in it. This soldered connector is vastly superior to any other type. These heavy wire sets with soldered connectors are available commercially from the Electron Connection Ltd., P. O. Box 442, Medford, Oregon, 97501. Next month we will discuss in detail the specifics of inverter sizing. Tune in and find out the inverter size that best fits your individual Courtesy of and copyright by Home Power Magazine Initially published in Issue #1, December 1987 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 207 7-29-91 06:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex nozzles Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well the hot side could do some work preheating water as you have already said...the cold side doing refrigeration (sp . . I just woke up). sound good, now what kind of constant source of power can we modulate to produce refrigiration cooling when we want it? Hydro or Hydro-electric would be ideal..and wind is too iffy. I have wind here, the tree flagging says about 10+ miles per hour per, averaged for the year..but not all the time! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 208 7-29-91 06:35am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yeah, for $20,000 a person can have a real power system, using batteries, hydor-electric (1 KW wheel) and 2.5 KW inverter. So if a person has a good source of water it would pay off in 20 years! As for gettin rid of nucelar..well there are uses for nuclear we haven't done much with yet, especially spacecraft..No the two sources that I feel may become worth a great deal (I've been wrong before) are 1.dirct solor to electricity energy. And 2. a beamed power system. colleltors in space. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 209 7-29-91 06:38am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Miser appliences Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I agree..refrigeraters are an excellent case in point for power misers compared to our standard method, our standard refrigeraters! Whew, the heat producer at the bottem of the 'frigde and the coils reducing their own efficiency because the heat is trapped by the hot air surrounding the cooling coils! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 210 7-29-91 06:43am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: System Review 4 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ As a point of interest..I helped a guy install a system which ran his refrigerator, all the lights he wanted, and his table saw (11 Amp inductive motor), and the rest of his shop. The inverter was 2.5 KW (Heart) and power source was a water wheel producing about well a bit less than 1 KW, 24 hours a day. 4each 300 amp-hour batteries.(golf cart type). Great system..we adjusted his voltage a bit high at the inverter to get the saw to start! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 211 7-29-91 06:50am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: battery pack Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>You refered to L-16 batteries. What are they? the batteries I L-16 batteries are 300 amp-hour 6 volt batteries that must be connected in series to produce 12 volts. They were, 5 years ago when I was active in the industry, the last word in good deep-cycle batteries, designed from the begining to stand stationary and be deep-cycled. Not quite up to your knee from the floor, not quite from your elbow to your wrist deep and a hand-span across. Real good batteries! GB>have are plain old lead-acid deep cycle size 27 batteries GB>parralell conected for 12 volts, nominal. I charge them off I don't know the 27 batteries... GB>the tow vehicle alternator and occaisionaly run a complete GB>discharge/recharge cycle or two. Makes a big difference in GB>usable charge. When I run the cycle, I am at home and use a Sounds like you know your batteries!! GB>110 charger. GB> I am a ways from Sonoma county !!! I live near Custer, GB>South Dakota, which is in the Black Hills of western South GB>Dakota. I am in Humboldt County. What do the Black Hills look like? Gentle rolling hills, high snowy crags? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 212 7-29-91 06:52am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Wind/AC Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If you run into anything of how to get 120VAC at 60 cycles...would you mention it on the echo here please? Problems, problems...grumble.. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 213 7-29-91 12:06pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: all Re: following message reposted... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ i have been informed that there were some severe but temporary problems with the backbone crosslinking some echos, but that it has been fixed now. i feel strongly enough about one of the three messages that i posted during this period to warrant reposting it in order to make sure that it was not one of the messages that was misdirected. my appologies if the following message is redundant. cheers, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 214 7-30-91 1:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Refridgeration Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:30:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Well the hot side could do some work preheating water as you > have already said...the cold side doing refrigeration (sp . > . I just woke up). sound good, now what kind of constant > source of power can we modulate to produce refrigiration > cooling when we want it? Hydro or Hydro-electric would be > ideal..and wind is too iffy. I have wind here, the tree > flagging says about 10+ miles per hour per, averaged for the > year..but not all the time! > --- I don't know that one would have to have constant power. In terms of a retrofit of existing commercial refridgerators it may not be practical but I had thermal mass or phase-change materials in mind. The vortex nozzles put out cold air at a max cool temp of -30 deg. F which, given enough run time often enough could freeze something like that liquid filled plastic blocks they have in some ice chests. Then too maybe you use the wind power to pump water into an uphill pond or tank and use the fall and water volume to turn a pelton wheel to turn an air compressor pump....there are possibilities....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 215 7-30-91 10:16pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Atomic Energy Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:35:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Yeah, for $20,000 a person can have a real power system, > using batteries, hydor-electric (1 KW wheel) and 2.5 KW > inverter. > So if a person has a good source of water it would pay off > in 20 years! > As for gettin rid of nucelar..well there are uses for > nuclear we haven't done much with yet, especially > spacecraft..No the two sources that I feel may become worth > a great deal (I've been wrong before) are 1.dirct solor to > electricity energy. And 2. a beamed power system. > colleltors in space. > --- I believe that PG&E, the utility in my area, wants something like $30,000 dollars a mile to run residence power lines. That's only a rough guesstimate based on what I *think* I recall reading. That's to say that before you can consume watt #1 at your rural homesite you may be paying that much for PG&E to put in the lines, then you have the priviledge of paying $.10-.14 per KW for all the power you use. If you're reasonably frugal with power you can have an independant power system for a lot less and never have to pay the utility after that. At our latitude, 20-50 watt PV panels will produce about 4500 watts per day on average (more in summer, less in winter). They'd cost you about $6000. Say another $7k for trackers, inverters, controllers, cable, batteries, an efficient Sun Frost 'fridge and a small generator. With the right gear and reasonable consumption you could live like a king on 4.5kw a day. My point is that the payback *could* be a lot sooner than 20 years....if you had to pay a hefty fee up front for power lines. Somehow I just don't think us educated monkeys are ready to mess with nuclear power yet. Maybe if we absolutely, positively HAD to in order to assure our survival it would be okay. I'm all for space exploration and believe we will use nuclear for that someday but it gives me the willies to think of a shuttle filled with radioactives blowing up like the Challenger. I like what Stewart Brand had to say (courtesy of the Real Goods Sourcebook): "Radiation leaks are caused by fools like me, but only God can build a nuclear reactor 93 million miles from the nearest elementry school". As for beamed power collected in space...why bother? It's gonna make it here on it's own anyway! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 216 7-30-91 11:01pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: following message reposted... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 12:06:41 > From: Michael Favor > To: all > i have been informed that there were some severe but > temporary problems with the backbone crosslinking some > echos, but that it has been fixed now. > > i feel strongly enough about one of the three messages that > i posted during this period to warrant reposting it in order > to make sure that it was not one of the messages that was > misdirected. my appologies if the following message is > redundant. > Funny thing is your "reposted messages" seem to be absent, but we received 3 messages from you posted on June 26th just fine...Anyway, I guess that makes it a "wash" and we're in good shape!....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 217 7-30-91 11:07pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 29 Jul 91 06:43:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > As a point of interest..I helped a guy install a system > which ran his refrigerator, all the lights he wanted, and > his table saw (11 Amp inductive motor), and the rest of his > shop. The inverter was 2.5 KW (Heart) and power source was > a water wheel producing about well a bit less than 1 KW, 24 > hours a day. 4each 300 amp-hour batteries.(golf cart type). > Great system..we adjusted his voltage a bit high at the > inverter to get the saw to start! > --- Love that Hydropower. Nice clean versatile stuff. Interesting system too. I seem to recall reading about a fellow with a rural cabinet shop who'd replaced the motor in his table and radial arm saws with permanent magnet 12vdc motors. I don't think I have the info anymore more but I'll dig some. Perhaps a person knowledgeable in the ways of PMag dc motors will enlighten us all. It would take some monster cable to deliver 140 amps @ 12vdc to the saws though. The inverted approach sounds much simpler....Thanks! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 218 7-30-91 04:13am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Lou Schneider Re: Windpower 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for a reply. The windmill will run at 50-300 cycles. The generator can likly be controlled as you suggested. I guess we would need P.G.& E.'s 60 Hertz and 120 volts as references. Would truck alternators be suitable for this sort of task, if the proper control circuitry were applied? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 249 8-01-91 9:51pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: following message reposted... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Anyway, I guess that makes it a > "wash" and we're in good shape!....DCK i figured all of that out just about the same time you did, i guess. sorry for the confusion... but, back to the topic at hand: could you try to describe in a few words how the bladeless turbine works, and some of the considerations in engineering one? if you feel real adventurous, maybe even make a rough guess what it might cost to build a few, in small quantities (nothing exact, maybe within a power of two or so?) thanks in advance for any tidbits. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 250 8-02-91 6:49pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Interesting Note.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I got a note via Network mail the other day from a fellow who raised some interesting points about some of the editorializing I've done here. Unfortunatly I can netmail him direct (the system his message came from isn't in my nodelist) so I thought I'd post some of it here and make my reply publicly (which I hope he doesn't mind). Some of you may also find it interesting and wish to share your views. This echo is *ours* so to speak, so your input and views are appreciated and will help determine the shape and direction of this forum. Always feel free to speak up! > To: Don Kulha on 1:125/7 > Subj: home power > Don, > I am really enjoying the HomePower echo, especially the > "back issues" of the magazine. I have a comment, though: > > You have been editorializing a bit against commercial power, > especially nuclear. FWIW: I've toured a nuclear power plant, > and know several people that work at that particualar site. > Given a choice of things to be sited across the street from > me, I'd prefer a "Nuke" over: a chemical plant/refinery, > landfill, steel mill, auto plant of any type, or even a > shopping mall. > > Remember that the total "life cycle" costs to society/the > environment of much of the stuff you're advocating is > probably higher than the cost of commercial power. It's > sorta like the debate on disposable vs. cotton diapers; > cotton doesn't look so good when you factor in the cotton > fields, the hot water used to wash them, the diaper services > with their trucks that many busy parents use, etc. One must > look at the "entire" picture, and try to remove personal > emotions. I don't have a problem with commercial power per say unless it is either 1) dangerous and/or 2) needlessly polluting. I'd probably have some others but those are the biggees. I have a REAL problem with nuclear power plants though. I'm an engineering tech, have done a lot of research on nuclear energy and have also known some folks in the industry. I think there are some valid applications for nuclear power but don't think commercial civilian power plants are one of them. I know the China Syndrome to be bunk and that a lot of the objections I read made by "enviornmentalists" are factless and emotional. Even discounting the possibilities of catastrophic failure of the plants their "life cycle" costs are way too high. What can be done with the waste from them that isn't going to eventually get back into the enviornment? We don't have the technology to contain them forever and we're talking some really long half-lifes for some of the materials. In my opinion it's just too much of a risk especially considering that there are alternatives which are cheaper overall and don't carry the risks. Radiation is insiduous stuff, once the genie is out of the bottle it's damn hard to put it back and be sure it will stay there. Some of the things I've heard from folks in the Navy who dealt with this stuff scared the shit out of me. As long as there are alternatives to nuclear that are equal or lower in cost I can't see any sane reason to take the risks commecial nuclear entails. My opinion of coal fired power plants is also pretty low considering the horrendous damage they're doing to the enviornment. Now admittedly the production of Photovoltaic cells and many types of batteries is not without their enviornmental costs but in my analysis they pale in comparison to nuclear and coal. > > I am hoping to see HOMEPOWER remain pretty much a > "technical" echo rather than becoming a "green" and/or > "political" echo. That sort of discussion belongs in DEBATE, > IMHO. Naturally, it's "your" echo, so if you want to > editorialize, I certainly can't stop you. I think/hope that it will pretty much remain technical in nature. There is room for some opinion to be expressed and political questions to be raised. Unless it becomes over bearing I think that we are the richer for keeping the boundaries as wide open as possible. This isn't my echo at all, it's ours and that's one reason I don't want to dictate the conditions of anyone's participation. Oh, I guess if we get some fire-breathing evangelist here I might ask them to cool it after a bit. I'll certainly take your suggestions in mind and sincerely thank you for them. > > Thanks for listening, Don. This is not meant as a flame, but > as "constuctive critisism" if you will. > Always welcome friend...Didn't consider it a flame for a second. Hope you continue to enjoy *our* echo. DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 275 8-01-91 2:15pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Lawrence London To: ALL Re: POWER echo Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ * Forwarded from "Echo Request" * Originally from Tom Rieger * Originally dated 07-31-91 20:41 Announcing: The formation of the POWER conference. A FidoNet echo for the operators/maintainers of power, steam and refrigeration plants. Moderated by Tom Rieger, a stationary engineer with with working experience on nuclear and conventional naval propulsion plants, oil, gas and solid fuel steam generation plants and ammonia refrigeration systems. Topics to include (but not limited to) plant safety, plant operations, plant maintenance, innovations, co-generation, solid fuel firing, ash handling, water treatment, emissions reduction, problem solving... Anything you can think of which is related to the power/refrigeration industry. Private topology until I can take it regional and eventually place it on the backbone. NetMail link-up requests to 1:260/242. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: EARTH*Net*Home:SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE ECHO*919-929-0677 (1:151/502) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 276 7-30-91 7:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Steam Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > normal oxidation...they use these things as pumps > commercially. My most likely problem will be keeping the > rotor disks together at 30k/rpm and keeping bearings in > it. I may need to make some hardened stainless steel > disks and get special bearings and lubricants. Will keep > you posted... > You should look at how turbocharger bearings are constructed and lubricated. They have a sleeve bearing that is allowed to rotate within the housing as the shaft rotates within the sleeve. The whole thing is, of course, lubricated by the pressure system within the engine. The theory is that the surface-surface speeds are cut in half of what they'd be if it were just the shaft within a fixed sleeve. Turbochargers today do NOT use anti-friction (ball or roller) bearings, and they turn 50,000 RPM and up, plus the temperatures are much higher than what you'd see in a steam turbine. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 277 7-30-91 7:30pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, You're speaking of generating large amounts of power (for industrial use) vs. small amounts for personal use. It might interest you and some others to know that it's really quite feasable economically to generate your own power when you're talking larger amounts. I have some cousins that run a pallet shop, and one of the machines they use is a "gang rip saw" that resaws 3x6, 4x6, etc. "cants" into pallet boards. This machine was originally furnished with 2 125hp electric motors. As they could not get 3-phase power in their location, they fitted a big Cummins Diesel truck engine to it. When they changed locations to a place that has 3-phase electricity available, they pushed the pencil a bit after talking with their power company, and believe it or not, were *far* ahead leaving the Diesel on the gang saw and selling the electric motors. By "far ahead", I mean at least $500.00/month, including amortizing the engine. They've put maybe 5 or 7 grand in repairs in that engine in the last 10 years, so they feel real happy about things. They do use commercial power for all the smaller motors, all of which are 20 hp and under, running their electric bill to about a grand/month, maybe a bit less. I run my own sawmill with a Diesel engine, and although I've not costed it out (I saw very little), I'm probably ahead compared to electric for that purpose. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 278 8-03-91 09:04am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Bearings for Turbines Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 30 Jul 91 19:24:47 > From: Jim Dunmyer > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Re: Steam Power > > You should look at how turbocharger bearings are constructed > and lubricated. They have a sleeve bearing that is allowed > to rotate within the housing as the shaft rotates within the > sleeve. The whole thing is, of course, lubricated by the > pressure system within the engine. The theory is that the > surface-surface speeds are cut in half of what they'd be if > it were just the shaft within a fixed sleeve. Turbochargers > today do NOT use anti-friction (ball or roller) bearings, > and they turn 50,000 RPM and up, plus the temperatures are > much higher than what you'd see in a steam turbine. > Many thanks for you suggestion. Of course...I should have thought of the connection/similarities to turbos. I was checking on the rotational speed limitations of the SR-8 bearings I use quite often and (as suspected) they didn't even get close to whats needed. I just got the "Marks-Standard Engineering reference" (what a great book!) and I believe it will back you up and provide the solution. For my prototype turbine a pressurized lubrication system shouldn't be too hard to do. Sealing and oil recovery will pose an interesting problem but not insurrmountable ones. Marks has a large section on turbines and probably deals with bearings/seals too. I recall lubrication being a critical issue with turbos. A dozen or so years back when I was involved in professional auto racing we did a "hack" one winter for a sponsor of our Can-Am team. We put a hot 440cu. in. twin turbo engine in a class A motorhome. It cooked turbo bearings until we switched to synthetic oil and added a small hydraulic accumulator so there would be some oil flow through the turbo bearings after the engine was shut off. The same type of accumulator ought to be okay here at least for the prototype. We aren't dealing with the same heat issue but lacking an oil pump it ought to work for short runs....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 279 8-03-91 09:42am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Diesel Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 30 Jul 91 19:30:00 > From: Jim Dunmyer > To: Don Kulha > > I run my own sawmill with a Diesel engine, and although I've > not costed it out (I saw very little), I'm probably ahead > compared to electric for that purpose. > That's quite interesting. Enjoyed the info on the pallet shop a lot (which I didn't quote here) which kinda confirms what I thought. One of the reasons I bought a small Kubota tractor a few years back, besides the obvious utility, was for the 3 speed power take off driven by the tractors 15 hp 2 cyl. diesel. Figured it could be useful for all manner of stuff when I moved to the country (such as powering air compressors, electrical generators, pumping water, mixing cement etc.) Haven't done any of those yet but they're certainly feasible. Hadn't thought of a sawmill though which would be quite handy.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 280 8-03-91 09:54am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: ALL Re: Steam Racer Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ At the risk of boring you all and/or having someone rename this the STEAM echo I've come across an interesting hack. One of my co-workers is a died-in-the-wool auto racing enthusiast. I got out of it because the energy consumed in the sport (including all the support activities) and the pollution created was saddening when I became aware enough to percieve it. I'm still fascinated by it even though I can't bring myself to participate in it or support it (...well, I do go to one sprint car race each year....love sprinters!). Anyway, my friend Don recently bought a steam propelled exhibition drag racer! I mention this because I noted they are having some kind of "speed run" at a race track near the Solar Expo and Rally next week near here and it got my mental wheels spinning. This steam racer isn't alternatively powered but is interesting in that in a little over a quarter mile from a standing start it has gone over 340mph! Yahoo! He has yet to run it and bought it from the original builder who hurt himself pretty good on the inital test run....seems his control system was less than robust and he couldn't shut down the motor in time to avoid running off track. They use two small pulsed jet engines to preheat an expansion chamber to high temperature, then remove the framework carrying the engines, push the car to the line and crack the valve which sprays pressurized hot water into the expansion/thrust chamber. Then away it goes with a roar and huge plume of steam. Well that beats burning nitromethane and clouds of tire spinning smoke in any case. Don is going to take it to the Bonneville salt flats for initial tests and runs. I'm trying to interest him in possibly doing a parallel experiment in attempting to directly solar heat the expansion chamber they're currently heating with pulse jets by solar means and going for the solar powered, non-poluting land speed record! He's moderatly interested in this. Heck, even if we only get enough heat up to run 200 mph it ought to beat the current record which is (I think) held by an electric car at about 87 mph. It ought to be an interesting demonstration of the power of alternative energy if it comes about! Gee, guess I'm not totally "cured" yet after all.... Don (I feel the need for speed) Kulha --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 281 8-03-91 10:36am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbine Engine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 01 Aug 91 21:51:37 > From: Michael Favor > To: Don Kulha > > could you try to describe in a few words how the bladeless > turbine works, and some of the considerations in engineering > one? if you feel real adventurous, maybe even make a rough > guess what it might cost to build a few, in small quantities > (nothing exact, maybe within a power of two or so?) thanks > in advance for any tidbits. > How it works....well, it's not proven that it does to my satisfaction yet but we'll have to see...If it doesn't no biggee. The prime moving idea behind this hack is remote personal power production powered by solar energy with other energy inputs possible to generate electrical power from steam. I'm not strictly tied to the turbine as an engine for this and am looking into reciprocating steam engines in tandem with the turbine to spin a generator and/or pump. The turbine might prove it's worth though...we'll see.... Anyway the Tesla Bladeless turbine is basically a stack of disks with some space between them keyed to a central drive shaft. Each disk has some holes cut near the center around the shaft they attach to which line up (possibly) with one another. The populsive gas (air or steam) is introduced into a chamber which surrounds the disk pack (with appropriate exhaust ports on one side near the shaft on the same radius as those holes in the disks), in a path tangent to the outer edge of the disks. The gas travels in a circular path around the disks to the exhaust ports near the center shaft. The higher the rotational speed of the disks the longer the path of the gasses on their way to the exhaust ports giving it more opportunity to impart the energy to the disks. Simple eh? Can't guess as to costs, etc. but will have a much better idea in a month....More later...DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 282 8-03-91 9:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: Black Hills Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Black Hills is an old mountain area rising out of the plains. It is supposed to be one of the oldest renges in the US, older than the Rockies and possibly the Appalachians. The highest peak is around 7,500 feet if I remember, so it is not a high range. It is about 200 miles east of the Big Horns and 350 east of the Rockies. It is mostly covered by Ponderossa pine. The snow cover in the Northern part gets to be pretty deep in the winter and there are several good ski slopes. The southern part, where I am is quite mild without so much winter snow cover. Mt Rushmore is about 15-20 miles away in a straight line northeast. Wyoming is about 15 miles west. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 283 8-03-91 11:32pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Integration 1 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Integrated Energy System by Windy Dankoff The integrated system works as a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. It contains subsystems that optimally work with each other and with your needs as they change through the seasons and the years. The integrated system is an attempt to combine multiple energy sources, storage and usage systems for optimum economy. A well planned "whole system" can temper the feast or famine extremes of alternative energy, and reduce or eliminate the need for a backup mechanical generator. Integrated system design is very specific to YOUR situation and climate. To get started on the right track, follow these BASIC PRINCIPLES 1) Recognize your Essential Needs. Your need is not for electricity: it is for light, water, preserved food,... Electricity is ONE way to provide for these needs. 2) Minimize the Steps of Energy Conversion. Every time energy is gathered, converted, stored, transferred or otherwise processed, a significant amount is lost. Consider the most direct approaches to meeting your needs. 3) Tie All Systems Together Make all systems function together as efficiently and simply as possible. This allows you to... 4) Balance Needs against Solutions. Use what we have when we need it. The typical consumer's home is a model of disjointed energy practices. In summer, inefficient light bulbs and refrigerators generate hundreds of watts of waste heat, causing air conditioners to work overtime. In winter, while cold abounds, refrigerators keep working hard to overcome the home's added heat. Electricity used for heating consumes hundreds of times more energy than other uses. Purified, pressurized drinking quality water is used to flush toilets and water the lawn. The alternative energy household does not have the "unlimited" energy supply that the utility line provides, and cannot afford such carelessness. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 284 8-03-91 11:33pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Integration 2 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Applying principles #1 and 2, we utilize windows or skylight to let in daytime light, store vegetables in a cool pantry or root cellar. We can divert rainwater from the roof to a storage tank to supply garden and trees by gravity flow. We use direct solar heat to warm our home in winter and simple solar collectors to heat our water, with gas or wood fuel backup. We use electricity for those functions that it can do best. Use battery direct DC power directly where feasible, rather than converting it all to AC through an inverter. If we must rely heavily on a gas generator, we use an efficient gas refrigerator, rather than converting fuel's energy through an engine/generator to power an electric fridge. Applying principles #3 and 4, we might use the sun for pumping irrigation water and/or refrigerating (high summer loads). The reduced demands in winter liberates plenty of energy for the extra winter lighting load. To make this possible, the pump and the home run off the same energy system. There are endless variations to system design, with new possibilities opening as the technology advances. Assess your needs, read all you can on the subject, talk to PV users and dealers, and use your imagination! No matter how well balanced your system might be, there are many times when more energy is gathered than is immediately required. Your battery bank becomes fully charged and your voltage regulator will simply "waste off" excess energy. Part of the integrated system involves techniques for... UTILIZING EXCESS ENERGY FACT: An alternative energy system designed for year round use will produce excess energy MOST OF THE TIME. A system providing mostly lights will produce lots of excess in the summer, when days are longer. A system providing irrigation water will produce excess in the winter. Your system must be designed to see you through worse than average conditions. The rest of the time, you have excess energy. Utilizing this excess energy may as much as DOUBLE the effective value of your system. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 285 8-03-91 11:33pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Integration 3 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ OVERLOAD DIVERSION: The idea is to automatically switch excess energy to another load. A device that will use energy in an effective manner. Ideal overloads are those that incorporate a form of STORAGE, such as: (1) Second battery bank (2) Water or preheater or (3) Water pumping into a storage tank. Another example, (4) home ventilating or cooling uses excess solar power exactly when it is needed most. (1) A second "reserve" battery bank solves three problems by providing: (A) a place to dump excess energy, (B) enough backup to reduce or eliminate the need for a backup generator, and (C) a way to enlarge or replace your battery bank without discarding the old batteries. You will note in our article on batteries that you should not combine batteries of different types or ages in the same set. Over the years we have had many customers phase out an aging battery bank that has lost capacity or is too small for expanding needs, by using it as the "reserve" set. (2) Overload water heating can contribute a saving of fuel in the AE home, although it has serious limitations. To understand this limitation, consider that a typical (rapid heating) AC electric water heater of 40 gallon capacity draws 9000 watts, while the average home AE system has only a few hundred watts to dump intermittently! If you have a solar thermal water heating system, you will already have hot water by the time your PV system is ready to dump. If not, an ordinary electric water heater can be refitted with low voltage heating elements to supply more or less warm water for direct use or preheated water to save gas. Or a gas heater can be fitted with an electric element to save gas. A 150 watt (12 amps at 12.5 volts) heating element will heat one gallon of water from 55 to 125 degrees F. in 1.25 hours. This is a useful amount of heat. Excess energy is FREE... we might as well use it! (3) Water storage for irrigation has enormous potential for making the most of solar power, especially because the most water is required when there is the most sun! It is ideal to store at least a two week supply of water. When your storage tank fills, allow it to overflow to some trees; the GROUND stores water/energy too! Use drip irrigation, mulching etc. to minimize evaporation losses. (4) House or attic ventilation or cooling is a prefect way to "blow off" excess summertime solar power during hot weather. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 286 8-03-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Integration 4 0f 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ CONTROL OF OVERLOAD ENERGY need not be complex. The simplest "human regulator" is simply a voltmeter, a switch, and you. When you see or anticipate your battery voltage approaching 15 volts (12V system), you flip the switch. The switch transfers all or most of your array to your alternate load, or turns your well pump or cooler on. When your voltage drops to 12.5 or so, then there is no longer excess energy so you flip the switch back to the normal full charge position. A control system can do this automatically for you, switching automatically as clouds come and go, appliances turn on and off, etc. If your control system does not have overload diversion, it may be added without altering existing controls. By the way, PV modules run cooler when they are connected and working (energy is being removed from them). Modules that are disconnected by regulation that does not use their excess energy actually get a little hotter. The decades may reveal that modules that are used constantly last longer than those that are often disconnected! "GROWING": A SYSTEM Many people cannot afford, or do not need, to buy a complete energy system all at once. You may be constructing your homestead gradually, expanding your energy system as your enterprises or your family expand. A system designed for growth from the start will be integrated with your needs and will save you alot of money when the time comes to expand. Balance these suggestions against your budget limitations. RULE: BUILD A HEAVY INFRASTRUCTURE. This refers to the parts of the system that form its foundation, and are difficult to enlarge later. (1) WIRE SIZING; If you are burying wire from your PV array, or concealing it in walls, use large enough, heavy gauge, wire to carry sufficient current for your future, enlarged array (or put your wire in oversized conduit so that more, or larger wire may be added easily). Add a "pull me" rope to conduits so that more wires can be added later. (2) AC DISTRIBUTION; When you wire a new house, distribute AC power lines to receptacle boxes in every room EVEN IF YOU DON'T PLAN to make extensive use of AC power. Inverters will keep improving and getting cheaper. Consider who may live in your home years from now. Future generations or prospective buyers may not accept the limitations you have imposed on them. Hallways tangled with extension cords are NOT a good option! Nor is ripping walls open to add wiring, or adding lots of surface conduit. You may leave unused receptacle boxes unwired until ready for use. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 287 8-03-91 11:35pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Integration 5 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ (3) ARRAY SUPPORT: It may cost only a little more to buy or build an array frame or tracker of twice the capacity that you need initially. Future expansion will be easy, less expensive, and better looking. See Home Power #2 for an easy to build, strong PV rack. (4) BATTERY BANK: When you connect new batteries to old ones you are inviting problems. Oversize your battery bank and avoid using its full capacity until you expand your array. Or, leave enough space in your battery area for a second, larger bank of batteries to be installed next to your old set. (5) CONSIDER A 24 VOLT SYSTEM: 12 volts is a vehicle standard. It is still ideal for a modest home system that does not need to run large motors or inverters and does not have long runs. But, a 24 volt system is more efficient and economical for larger systems and for small systems designed to grow. A dual 24/12 volt system need not be complex or costly. NOTE: Fortunately, there is no strict need for compatibility among PV modules, old and new, different types and power ratings may be mixed into your array. A photovoltaic system is unique in that its "generator" is composed of small modules and can be expanded over time. This is one of the many factors that make PV power the most liberating energy technology ever developed. Make the most of it by employing integrated system techniques and designing for future needs. Windy Dankoff is owner and operator of Windlight Workshop, POB 548, Santa Cruz, NM 87567 or telephone: 505-753-9699. Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine Originally published Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 288 8-03-91 11:38pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Polling Nodes Re: Mail Hours Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I thought I needed to clarify the hours my system has mail packeted and will honor pickups for the nodes that poll. I have seen a couple mail sessions happen outside these hours which resulted in no packets being sent and a wasted call. My apologies if this wasn't clear. Mail packets will be available the following hours: 01:30-03:30 PST and 08:00-01:00 PST Daily --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 339 7-31-91 05:16am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ That's right, +12 (or+24) volts through a cable of any length produces an IR drop like crazy. Yeah that 120 VAC system had quite an IR drop, the cable was maybe 300+ feet and the inductive motor of the table saw probably drew 50+ amps to start, possibly as little as 25 amps to start. It wasn't starting very well. Wire? it was 12 guage solid copper (probably, I'm not off far about that). But for starting surge....all was fine. For such a thing, there are AC capacitors...P.G.& (suckup) E. uses them as line regulators. These large devices store quite a bit, I don't know their cost. For surges they are good. Lightning can destroy them, any small animal can get a real shock! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 340 7-31-91 05:46am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: L-16's Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ L-16 batteries compared to (?)27 batteries... The material that is published on L-16s is well quoted in this echo. But the published material in both cases is based (I'm pretty sure) on engineer calculations and some tests. Both (I think) are relativly new products and the track records in actual uses isn't much used as reference..in the published specs. What I'm saying is the actual use life of such batteries may be more than the publications state. In my experience, the three things to really keep an eye on are: First! Keep batteries clean. Really clean! Second..Electrolite..this is the best indication of what is happening in a battery. Far better than voltage or current. Third! One cannot spend too much care to make excellent connections with the battery terminals! And when connectied well, to protect the connections from corrosion with a gel product. If these things are done, it is my opinion a battery can last several times as long as published. But I don't have real data only data based on battery partial lifetime of batteries. A friend had a bank of L-16 (manufactured by TROJAN) and after 3 years there were delivering NEW performance. We went through them and checked the terminal connections. To do this we used a voltemeter that read out 6.00 volts...that is voltage to 3 significant digits while the batteries delivered a moderate load. (a larger load would have been even better) and we found several connections worth re-doing. Another thing..(lots on batteries) many battery users store batteries in an outdoor shed but protecting the batteries from tempreture extremes increases their lifetimes a great deal. Say, good luck! Do you have sattelite Television too? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 341 7-31-91 05:55am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Inverters, 2 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>the highest of all types of inverters, in some cases DK>consistently DK>over 90%. For example, we use a 1,500 Watt Trace Inverter. DK>This DK>inverter is over 90% efficient at power output levels between As a point of information, Heart makes an inverter of 2500 (and maybe will still make a 5000 Watt inverter) producing 120 volts at 60 cycles and it is in excessive of 95% efficient through most of the range 100 watts to 2500 watts. Excepts for electric clocks, it does quite well. And it draws almost nil if no power is being drawn from it...a nice design! But tell me, does the TRACE produce a square wave and then modify it or does it have a rotating shaft, prducing a sine wave first? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 342 7-31-91 06:03am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Inverters 4 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ And agreed that making a list of appliences..etc is the best method but any motor (water pump - electric saw) will draw so much that should be figured first because if the inverter is capable of say 1000 watts and is running a refigerator and a light.. We are drawing..say 200 watts and we turn on 5 amp saw..well it is even money the saw won't start and certain it won't start if it is an inductive motor! But you say, 'that's less than 700 watts and the inverter can produce 1000'. But the starting surge of an electric motor is 2-15 times as great as the running current and power of the said electric motor! So in calculating how large an inverter, it is sensible to look first to any electric motor first. Refrigerators for example! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 343 7-31-91 06:21am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Inverters 5 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>connections on the battery terminals are subject to DK>corrosion. It The connections of battery to battery and battery to inverter are certainly critical and should only be soldered ..as stated but are not necessarily subject to to corrision. By using a chemically impregnated pad under the connector and covering the termianl and connector with chemically inactive get (even vasaline helps) the corresion can be minimized, if not reduced to nil. The sorce of source of corrision is H2SO4..sulpheric acid but while it happily reacts with copper (of the wires) it doesn't with all things, and the delivered current of the battery (packs) will be decreased DRASTICALLY if there is corresion AT ALL, ANY bit of corrosion will reduce the delivered current whether or VISIBLE or NOT. If ANY corrosion is visible the connections should be redone because 1/4 of the battery's delivered power can be dissapted in the connections with only mild corresion. More important, to put power into the battery, 1/4 of the power is lost in the connection! If solor panels are being used..usually a mild source of current for large batteries..Most or ALL of the solor panels charge can be wasted in the battery connections! I've worked on an 8 panel system that lost almost ALL of its power in the battery connections..and the connections had only mild corrosion, one had to look really close to see corrosion! One might as well put a piece of plastic between the connector and terminal as corrosion. And with modern chemicals, this whole problem can be bypassed completely! And (almost) permanently! Put some GEL on the connector, a pad underneath. use K-Y jelly if money is scarce (isn't it always). But the connection WILL NOT be destroyed by corrosion with just a little installation care, and a little maintenance care from time to time! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 365 8-04-91 08:14am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 31 Jul 91 06:21:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Inverters 5 of 5 > all things, and the delivered current of the battery (packs) > will be decreased DRASTICALLY if there is corresion AT ALL, > ANY bit of corrosion will reduce the delivered current > whether or VISIBLE or NOT. If ANY corrosion is visible the > connections should be redone because 1/4 of the battery's > delivered power can be dissapted in the connections with Corrosion is insiduous stuff....It can really cut system or device performance even if you can't see it. I recently read a very interesting article in (I think) Electronics Design News on contact enhancing chemicals. I have heard about such chemicals for years, in particular for computer type connections (edge card, cables, sockets) where fretting corrosion on what looks like a perfectly good connction can cause periodic failures and errors. Unfortunatly I was never able to track the stuff down until now.... According to this article microcystaline wax mixed with mineral oil is a suitable sealant for new connections and prevents airborne contaminants and reactive gasses (inc. oxygen) from reaching the contact area. I don't know what constitutes microcrystalline wax though. Also mentioned are Cramolin preparations (Craig Labs. Inc, Box J, Escondido CA 92025, (619)743-7143) which consist of cleaners and complimentry contact enhancement and sealing products. The have a product line which is supposed to include products suitable for use in contacts carrying milliamps on up to thousands of amps. I seem to recall a friend who was a reactor systems electrics tech in a naval shipyard mentioning this stuff some years back. Sounds like there may be some promise there. Once upon a time I read a column by Jerry Pournelle raving about something called "Tweek", a contact enhancing liquid product that reportedly did magic things. I have discovered that Tweek is actually a repackaged dilute form of a chemical called Stabilant 22 (D W Electrochemicals Ltd., 9005 Leslie ST., Unit 106, Richmond Hill, Ontario L4B 1G7, Canada, (416)889-1522) which is a liquid polymer that fills gaps between mated contacts and conducts current under an applied electric field. DW sells the full stregnth Stabilant 22 for about $102 for 15ml (yikes) and a dilute form (cut 4:1 with isopropyl alky) for $36 for 15ml. The dilute form can be brushed on seated, socketed chips and penetrates into the contacts enhancing them. Interestingly at voltages under 30v it doesn't conduct unless directly between two contacts hence I've brushed onto many socketed IC's without first pulling them and have had zero problems per their suggestions. I keep some on my computer workbench at home and use it on systems I repair for folks (a little insurance against flakey faults) and on all new systems I build (put it on all edge card connections, SIMMS, SIPS and DIPS and especially video connections). As for the AE applications of this stuff???? Some research may be in order. If you want to experiment Golden Ear Stereo outlets sell the stuff as "Tweek" (8:1 dilute) for $18 per 7ml. It comes recommended for "audio, video, computers, relays, terminals, antennae, avionics, tube sockets, crimp connections, speaker terminals, potentiometers, patch bays, plugs"...etc. Interesting stuff....will run the info I have by Richard Perez from Home Power Mag next weekend and see what he says......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 366 8-04-91 2:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: Black Hills Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thank-you Gale, an excellent description! Anything I can let you know? I worked some in remote power systems and have some electronics background. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 367 8-02-91 08:56am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: all Re: wood heat Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'd kinda expect that wood heat would fall under the "home power" heading, so I'll put in my $.02 worth: Having a ready source of wood (I run a sawmill as a hobby), I've heated the shop in my barn (that's where my 5-line BBS resides, just across from the LeBlond metal lathe) with wood for over 10 winters. We're located in SE Michigan, just north of the Ohio line, so it take a bit of heat each year. I got into computers at about the same time I got into wood heat, and thought immediately that the 2 technologies should be "married". I succeeded about 5 or 6 years ago, and it was much easier than I thought! A Radio Shack Color Computer ("COCO") has 4 analog inputs in the form of joystick ports. It also has a relay output to start/stop the cassette recorder for program loading/saving. At the time I built V1.0 of my stove controller, the COCO listed for a hundred bucks. (16K, Standard Basic) It took about $40.00 or so of Radio Shack parts, plus a solenoid bought at a HamFest and a thermocouple from the hardware store to automate my Sotz Barrel Stove. Here's how ya do it: You need to get the thermocouple signal (15 mv or so) up to about 2.5 volts for the joystick port. An "OpAmp" (operational amplifier) with associated power supply did the trick. There's a 24-volt power supply in the same box to power the solenoid. The latter has a relay that is energized by the cassette relay, in turn pulling in the solenoid to open the draft. Cont. next message: --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 368 8-02-91 09:07am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: all Re: wood heat (cont.) Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ COCO stove controller, part 2 The actual draft control consists of the solenoid with a quart paint can lid mounted on an extension on the plunger. The whole thing has 2 aluminum disks about 6" dia. on standoffs, screwed to the door of the stove, over a 2" hole bored in the door. The solenoid pulls the paint can lid about 1/4" off the door to open the draft and a spring slaps it back against the door. The thermocouple is stuck in a hole drilled in the stack just above the barrel. A pair of wires is soldered to the end of the "wire" on the thermocouple to take the voltage back to the computer system sitting 20 feet away. I've used 2 different methods to pick up the room temperature, an LM334 temperature-sensing IC and a Thermistor. (a thermocouple has too low a voltage at room temperatures to be useful) The output from that circuit also goes to the OpAmp, it being a "quad" style with 4 amplifiers. The OpAmp feeds the joystick ports with a signal that varies from 0 to 5 volts. The computer has a battery pack attached to it so it doesn't loose the program when we get a power bump. This unit was a commercial job that I picked up on sale several years ago, but it'd be very simple to build something, as all you need for this purpose is +5VDC. I load the program with a cassette recorder, but I haven't had to do this for a couple of years now. Cont next message: --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 369 8-02-91 09:16am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: all Re: wood heat (cont) Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ COCO stove controller, part 3 The program that runs the "COCO stove controller" is about 80 lines of BASIC. I read the stack temperature 20 times and build an average; the average is them compared to the "stack setpoint". If the average is higher than the S.P., the draft is closed, if lower, the solenoid is energized to open the draft. I also compare the room temperature to the room setpoint; if "low", the stack setpoint is set to a "high" S.P., if the room is warm, it's set to a "low" S.P. About 2/3 of the program is screen display, with a setup screen, and a "running" screen. Anymore, I very seldom turn the old B&W TV on unless I'm showing it off to visitors. The draft will cycle on or off every 30-60 seconds when the stove is at equilibrium, and the Condor stack thermometer looks like the pointer is glued in place. This combination cut my wood consumption by probably 25% or more, but the best part is that I don't have to fool with the stove. Buring slab wood off the sawmill is almost like buring fuel oil; the stove is either running away or it's going out, unless you are constantly adjusting the draft. The Sotz Barrel Stove kit is the best that I've seen, and I've used at least 3 different kits to build barrel stoves. It has the best-sealing door of any of them, and burning "crap wood" like I do, you *must* have a tight door seal. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 370 8-02-91 09:28am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: all Re: wood heat (cont') Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ COCO stove controller, part 4 The design of the amplifier was really pretty simple. Although I have a degree in electronics, it was obtained 25 years ago, and I've never had the opportunity to actually work with much of this type of thing. I bought a couple of books on OpAmps, at least one from Radio Shack (see the pattern here?) The thermocouple part of the circuit is extrememly simple, maybe 2 or 3 resistors and a "span" or "gain" pot, (15-turn). The room temperature thing was much harder, and I doubt I could duplicate it readily. It always seems to be a "cut & try" process of spinning the knobs on the resistor substitution box until it works. An RC network across the relay contacts is necessary to prevent the solenoid's inductive kick-back from crashing the computer, and naturally, decent construction practices must be followed. The OpAmp circuit is built on one of those "experimenter's boards" from RS, and the whole thing is mounted in an enclosure that's 3"H x 8"W x 6"D. Please don't ask for schematics for this thing, as I don't have a complete diagram "as built". I'll be glad to answer specific questions if I can. Although I don't even have a print-out of the program, it'd probably be possible to LPRINT it and capture it with a null-modem cable. As I said in the beginning, I've had this system, or an earlier incarnation, running for quite a number of years now. The present setup hasn't been touched for at least 3 or 4 years. COCO's are readily available at RS, at least until they discontinue them completely, and you can often pick them up used for next to nothing. Kept cool, they seem to be very reliable. Barrel stoves will last nearly forever, especially in this sort of service, as the stove never overheats. Naturally, the stove installation itself is strictly up to snuff, with 3' of clearance to combustables, a double-wall solid-pack insulated chimney, etc. The way the stove is being fired, it's extememly clean-burning; I haven't cleaned the stack in 2 or 3 years now, and it still looks very good. <> --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 382 8-05-91 11:17pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Edmund Scientific Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I was reading through some of the old messages here and realized I never did follow up on getting you the access info on Edmund Scientific. It is as follows: Edmund Scientific Company, 101 E. Gloucester Pike, Barrington N.J. 08007, (609)573-6250 voice, (609)573-6295 (FAX) These folks have some fascinating stuff. Primarily optics and optical devices, they also have lasers, lab equipment, science learning kits, steam engine kits (small), solar experiments kits, PV cells, books, learning toys, lab supplies, superconductors...etc. If you like to hack together experiments of various sorts ask for their catalog....neat stuff if a little pricey!....DCK P.S.-They also have fresnel lenses to 27X41" sizes....Want to melt that niegbor's car with the annoying alarm system down to slag eh? --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 383 8-05-91 12:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Bob Campbell To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Engine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Anyway the Tesla Bladeless turbine is basically a > stack of disks with some space between them keyed to a > central drive shaft. Each disk has some holes cut near > the center around the shaft they attach to which line up > (possibly) with one another. Sorta like this? Where the top of the U is a hole near the surface of each disk? Tell me if I understand the concept correctly. The faster it spins the harder you can push the steam, because the exhaust will be trying to catch up to the exhaust port; there by increasing the power due to a longer path across the surface of the disk. Do you think it could be run at low speed, or does it only have a high speed power curve? ___ ___ \ === stream ========> ___ \ ) / \ ) ( U ) <--- Shaft \ ___ / --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint - Dive Safely, Feet First, First Time (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 384 8-05-91 11:10am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Whew! There is quite a bit there..let me get back to you! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 385 8-05-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Atomic Energy Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I don't follow how one would buy 4500 watts of batteries and inverter for $7000. But the intent and area of attention should be pursued by more people. My feeling is we are strangeling ourselves with our cities. We have a good planet here full of promise and with enough minerals, and things to survive nicley. We can live with a population in the very low billions and live well.. But everyone insists toward overpopulating and creating large cities. The stupid result is there are a relative handful who take enough responsiblity for their own lifestyle to create the lifestyle that they (we) want to have. If the sheep were led properly, we would have a nice living situation for everyone but it certainly won't happen soon and probably not ever. Therefore the nicer things of life are to be ignored and belittled by most..and unheard of by most. The billions of India will not likly know that and inverter exists! But we can't and shouldn't take any responsibilty for them untill our own shit is straight..this is my feeling and the reson why I am sounding off is beacuse remote power (whatever the cost and style) is one of the things we good guys are interested in...but the answer to a better life for all of us is not to interest people in remote power but to interest people in creating the kind of environment they want! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 386 8-05-91 11:38pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>motors. I don't think I have the info anymore more but I'll DK>dig some. Perhaps a person knowledgeable in the ways of PMag DK>dc motors will enlighten us all. It would take some monster DK>cable to deliver 140 amps @ 12vdc to the saws though. The DK>inverted approach sounds much simpler....Thanks! The run from inverter to power saw might have been 500 feet, of 12 guage wire...something like that. Induction motor started a bit slower than normal but a good AC capacitor would handle the shop in that kind of situation...and big surge motor from an inverter can be helped enormously by a AC capacitor..talking millifarads here. PG&E uses such to handle surges in mills and such. A guy could reduce his inverter costs in some cases! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 479 8-08-91 12:46am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Off To See The Wizard(s)... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'll be a bit rare around here for a few days 'cause we're off to SEER '91 to see what's new in small scale alternative energy, check out some oldies but goodies and check out the electric cars (I'd sure love to have one!). I'll be distributing a list of current participating systems in our conference and asking some of the vendors to put a mention of this in their mailings, as well as getting it in (hopefully) in Home Power Mag.We're also bringing a laptop along which has a complete remote BBS installed, complete with this echo. I'd like to get some folks at the Expo to log in, get a taste of what we're doing, and hopefully enter a message or three. If I have access to a phone line I'll squirt anything good back this way and snag the latest messages from you. While the Expo, and all the latest in AE will be quite fascinating I'll also have a chance to check out some of our "power" roots in the motive power museum which is also in Willits. Should be fascinating and I expect I'll find some interesting steam stuff there. The electric car section of the expo holds a particular fascination for me. I'll definitly bend an ear or two there and learn a lot. In any case we'll be in touch. Hopefully during the expo but if not, later.....Have a great weekend....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 480 8-07-91 09:04am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ that sounds like useful stuff, if a bit expensive! Does it keep out corrosion as well? Does a treated terminal corrode less than an untreated one? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 481 8-08-91 11:22am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Terry, I must take issue with your recollections. At 140 amps, 12 gauge copper makes a wonderful heating element, and a lousy conductor. I would estimate a #2 or 4 conductor for 12vdc @ 140amps. and a 500 foot run is just plain *CRAZY* for such a low voltage, high current application. The I2R losses would be PHENOMENAL! Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 482 8-09-91 08:12am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Terry, TK> TK> I must take issue with your recollections. At 140 amps, TK>12 gauge copper makes a wonderful heating element, and a TK>lousy conductor. I would estimate a #2 or 4 conductor for TK>12vdc @ 140amps. and a 500 foot run is just plain *CRAZY* TK>for such a low voltage, high current application. The I2R TK>losses would be PHENOMENAL! TK> TK>Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, TK>Steam Enthusiast! TK> TK>--- ConfMail V3.31 TK> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 TK>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) 500 feet using 12VDC is surly crazy! Steam would work though, through 500 feet of pipe! No the DC ran some 10feet. The 120VAC ran 500 feet. Possible the message dropped a '0' or possibley I didn't press '0' in 120. In any event I upped the invert's output to 140VAC to make up for the IR loss through the 500 feet of 12 guage copper because the table saw pulled a lot of current and needed more voltage to start. But through 500 feet of 12guage copper ran 120VAC but not 12VDC. Sorry if my message didn't get to you that-a-way, didn't mean to steam your glasses with that sort of statement! I have some successful work experience with remote power systems and about half of it was communicating these complexities in clear, easy-to-understand ways. ............................................... inverter....120VAC....(500feet)....tablesaw ............................................ O.K.? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 483 8-09-91 08:15am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Terry, TK> TK> I must take issue with your recollections. At 140 amps, TK>12 gauge copper makes a wonderful heating element, and a TK>lousy conductor. I would estimate a #2 or 4 conductor for At 140 amps, wouldn't 12 guage copper just sag, continue to increase in resistance and therefore continue to heat up more? Melt-through? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 484 8-06-91 7:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Diesel Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > I run my own sawmill with a Diesel engine, and although I've > > not costed it out (I saw very little), I'm probably ahead > > compared to electric for that purpose. > > > That's quite interesting. Enjoyed the info on the > pallet shop a lot (which I didn't quote here) which > kinda confirms what I thought. One of the reasons I > bought a small Kubota tractor a few years back, besides > the obvious utility, was for the 3 speed power take off > driven by the tractors 15 hp 2 cyl. diesel. Figured it > could be useful for all manner of stuff when I moved to > the country (such as powering air compressors, > electrical generators, pumping water, mixing cement > etc.) Haven't done any of those yet but they're > certainly feasible. Hadn't thought of a sawmill though > which would be quite handy.....DCK Well, here's how I figure it, assuming that you have factory power available: It hardly pays, IMHO, to generate your own power for smaller loads, especially intermittant devices such as well pumps and refrigerators. It *does* pay to "roll yer own" when it comes to big loads, especially if they're fairly high duty cycle, but not continuous. The pallet shop's gang rip saw and my sawmill are good examples. Motors above 5 hp should probably be gas or Diesel also, if you don't have 3-phase electricity at your location, simply because of the cost of the motors. Single-phase electric motors run over $100.00 per horsepower new, and they're hard to find used. Three-phase motors are worth about a buck/HP junk price and they're not all that hard to find, making it well worthwhile to install 3-phase power if you have need for such stuff. (professional wood shop, machine shop, etc.) Of course, my philosopy above doesn't mean that I'm not interested in a big wind generator system! I envision a hundred-foot tower, 50-foot rotor, and giant batteries and inverter system. Enough to totally cut the cord to Consumer's Power Company. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 632 8-10-91 10:18am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: All Re: MicroHydro Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello, From the Reservation BBS, FIDONet 327/999, of Coventry Connecticut! We are glad to be joining this conference... Out here in the northeast there are many old mill sites from the 1800's which were used during the age of water powered mills. Many of the old mills are gone now but the dams on the rivers are abundant, many people have them on their property but they are not used for anything except for scenery. There are virtually no windmills in this area, and few into solar either (due to our New England weather I suppose....). BTW, what is microhydro? Glad to be included, Rich Jensen Assistant on "The Reservation BBS", home of the FIDO "Indian_Affairs" echo --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 633 8-09-91 09:26am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Off To See The Wizard(s)... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I'll be a bit rare around here for a few days 'cause > we're off to SEER '91 to see what's new in small scale > alternative energy, check out some oldies but goodies can you give more information about this event? place? time? price? directions how to get there? i might be interested in going myself. i dont know if this message will get out and back in time, but it's worth a try, i guess. cheers, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.20.15 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS: 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 634 8-11-91 12:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Terry, Now *THAT* makes considerably more sense!!!!!! (-: *SAY*, what's this about steam? Of *COURSE* steam can be piped efficiently 500 feet and more (just ask the operators of the geothermal powerplants 15 miles from here!). (-: Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 635 8-11-91 7:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 07 Aug 91 09:04:00 > From: Terry Olsen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Connectors/corrosion > that sounds like useful stuff, if a bit expensive! Does it > keep out corrosion as well? Does a treated terminal corrode > less than an untreated one? > --- I can only speak of my experience with the stuff and microcomputers. I haven't even layed eyes on the Cramolim (sp?) compounds and haven't used the stabilant in any really corrosive enviornments yet. I gave Richard from Home Power mag an info packet on this stuff (all the hard info I had) and expect if it's useful for battery/inverter/AE applications we'll hear from him about it. I suggest writing the manufacturers of the products and asking them about it. My gut level feeling as to whether they keep out corrosion is "probably"...I believe thats what they're supposed to do. No hard data to support that though.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 636 8-11-91 7:17pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: MicroHydro Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 10 Aug 91 10:18:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: All > Subj: MicroHydro > > From the Reservation BBS, FIDONet 327/999, of Coventry > Connecticut! We are glad to be joining this conference... > Out here in the northeast there are many old mill sites from > the 1800's which were used during the age of water powered > mills. Many of the old mills are gone now but the dams on > the rivers are abundant, many people have them on their > property but they are not used for anything except for > scenery. There are virtually no windmills in this area, and > few into solar either (due to our New England weather I > suppose....). Sounds like you're from the land of abundant low-head hydro power. In any case we're glad to have you online with us and look forward to learning/sharing with one another. Home Power Issue #23 had an excellent article titled "Ultra-Low Head Hydro" that would probably be of interest. To quote a little bit of it: "One hundred years ago low-head hydro wasn't just an alternative, it was the best alternative. Unlike high-head sites, low-head sites are everywhere and often closer to population centers where the power is needed. Power sources were valuble and sought after, because cheap power wasn't delivered through silent wires down every street. Local wars were fought over water rights." "Times have changed but the wieght of water and gravity remain the same. Once we had over 200 makers of small water turbines in the USA. Some of them built, by 1875, equipment that was 80% efficient. They built and inventoried turbines as small as four inches in diameter that made one horsepower on ten feet of head. Turbines that ran on two feet of head and made from one to fifteen horsepower were common (note 1 h.p.= about 700 watts, DCK). Some were excellent machines that ran with little maintenance for years. The know how and hardware were everywhere. In the eastern part of America, the power of small streams near populated areas was developed and put to work. All the way from the hills to the sea, this water was used over and over again wherever topography supplied enough head." > BTW, what is microhydro? > I'm not sure what the definition of microhydro is and will scrounge through some of my literature of an answer for ya. Basically it refers to small hydro power systems, usually incorporating a pelton wheel, and driving a Delco automotive type alternator. From this one might assume that Micro-hydro systems generate between 100 to 1000 watts of energy per hour. I've also run across reference to "nano" hydro systems which produce less than 100 watts per hour. 100 watts isn't much but with it running 24 hous a day you get over two KW of energy....about as much as 8 PV panels would produce on average. That is enough power to do quite a bit with! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 637 8-11-91 8:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Off To See The Wizard(s)... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 09 Aug 91 09:26:59 > From: Michael Favor > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Re: Off To See The Wizard(s)... > > can you give more information about this event? place? > time? price? directions how to get there? i might be > interested in going myself. > i dont know if this message will get out and back in time, > but it's > worth a try, i guess. > Ah shoot....Sorry to say I got this upon my return from SEER which was held in Willits this weekend. You'd have especially liked it because across the street they had all the steam engines at the museum of motive power cranked up and running (which they only do 3 times a year). I'll give you a run down on the show and also all the steam stuff. It was a fascinating weekend to be sure. Sorry I wasn't around to answer your message in time though. I probably should have reposted that info (it was mentioned several times in the echo but I forgot that folks getting their feeds other than direct from me didn't get all the old messages which I re-exported as new systems joined in). DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 638 8-11-91 8:19pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: SEER '91 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well, we just got back from three days of seemingly perpetual motion. That's to say we've returned from the 1991 edition of the Solar Energy Expo and Rally, held in Willits CA this past weekend. We drove up early Friday and arrived in time for the start of the Electrathon Race at Ukiah Speedway, about 20 miles south of the actual Expo site. After cheering on the contestants there we headed to Willits and checked in at the KOA campground there and got ourselves situated. Saturday, I left the family at KOA to swim and otherwise enjoy the day and got to the Expo about 10am. I had a thoroughly enjoyable day, learned a tremendous amount, and finally left at 1 am after hanging out with all the Home Power mag crew and friends all evening. Today (Sunday) I took my whole "fleet" (wife and three kids) to the Expo and the museum of motive power. We had a good time, met some more interesting folks and left early to avoid the rush. I'm going to rest up for a day, organize my materials and thoughts and then launch into a review of the show. Between all the electric vehicles, photovoltaics, controllers, solar collectors, interesting gagets, folks, steam engines, etc., I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment (sleep depravation might have something to do with that...). Look forward to a full review shortly! Don "What's sleep?" Kulha Moderator HOMEPOWR P.S.-What was most interesting? That's a toss-up between the beautiful Hydrogen powered Ford Escort and the 1912 Sunbeam 500 watt Steam Turbine on the tracked steam crane...DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 639 8-12-91 8:06pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Electrathon Race Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Last Friday on our way to SEER '91 we first stopped in Ukiah CA to take in the Nissan sponsored Electrathon race. These racers bear little resembleance to the vehicles that usually race around this 3/8th mile oval race course. Most of the vehicles have 3 wheels, sport some form of aerodynamic body, have a small electric motor (I thought I heard talk of 1.5hp) and use two Dunlop Pulsar batteries. They wiegh about 150 lbs., including batteries, and have a top speed of around 45-50 mph. The race lasts for 1 hour and the winner is based on the longest distance traveled (you don't necessarily have to be running at the end of the hour to win). To date the highest average speed for the hour race is 40 mph. The race itself is a little boring if you are expecting the roar, crashes and competition normal to professional motorsports. Having a backround in professional auto racing I expected to be bored to tears but found myself quite fascinated. Strategy plays a large part in the success or failure of a team's entry. Some vehicles jumped out front and ran away from the competition only to break or run out of power long before the race's end. Other's, like the eventual winner, Clark Beasley, from Sydney Austrailia, paced themselves and didn't even get close to the front of the pack until the end of the event. One rather exciting occurance was when Gary Gager, in a vehicle almost identical to Beasley's, blew his rear tire and spun out at 40 mph in turn 4. Luckily both driver and car survived intact but it ended Gary's chance for a win. What does this type of event have to do with Home Power? It's a test bed for efficent batteries, motors, motor controllers and possibly even the commuter vehicles of tomorrow. It would be a shame if we were to live off renewable energy most of the time and then have to climb into a gas powered vehicle to drive away in a blaze of hydrocarbons. This isn't to condemm folks buring gasoline, diesel or propane....they have their place and I sure as heck couldn't have hauled my family, 300 pounds of camping gear and myself up to SEER in any electric vehicle I've ever seen. Ideally though at some point in our future electric vehicles will be an option for at least those short hops which comprise most folks driving mileage. Burning almost anything generates carbon dioxide and the day is fast approaching when we won't be able to afford this luxury to the extent we do today. Many auto manufacturers recognize the demise of fossil fuel powered cars and are actively pursuing other technologies. Nissan, the sponsor of the race is one of them. They hope to have an electric car available (initially in Japan) by mid 1993. Both GM and Ford had alternative fuel exhibits at SEER as did Pacific Gas and Electric (the big utility in these parts). The electrathon racers are a hint of the types of vehicles our future holds in store. Besides, they were kinda fun too! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 640 8-12-91 8:45pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Sun Power USA! Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ That's what you could have called Willits CA the home of SEER '91, the Solar Energy Expo and Rally. I've never seen so many photovoltaic panels in one place in my life! Outside one of the gates there must have been over 120 panels hooked up to a truckload (flatbed sized) of deep cycle batteries. There were folks exhibiting everything from Solar panels, to electric vans, batteries to composting toilets, well pumps to perpetual motion (huh?) machines with a few radical vegatarians thrown in for good measure. There were appoximatly 80 booths scattered around the grounds which was thankfully shaded by many tall trees (not so good for PV power but heaven compared to the hot shadeless dustbowl of last year). Some of the booths had a decidedly corporate flavor though most were of the smaller, homespun variety (with which I was a bit more comfortable). Real Goods erected a 24 foot, 3 frequency dome onsite and had the Sunseeker, the first plane to cross the country on solar power, on display outside. There was enough diversity to hold almost anyone's interest. I would have catagorized the exhibits as follows, hardware vendors, solar cooking equipment, vehicles suppliers and enthusiasts, general merchandise and novelty vendors (solar toys, peace buttons, bumper stickers, etc.). Theresa, my wife, particularly liked the solar oven exhibits. I was drawn to vehicles and the hardware displays being the techie I am. All the while music of various sorts, square dances and various speeches were going on at the solar powered stage. A few blocks away off-site a series of seminars were underway on a variety of renewable energy topics and others (such as rammed earth homes). If you wanted to know anything about homebrewed or alternative energy you could find dozens of folks (vendors and fans alike) willing to share their knowledge. Electric vehicles galore were present. Everything from a battery powered skateboard to Cal State LA's world class PV powered racer. There were lots of practical commuter type electric cars, some designed from scratch and others slick conversions of existing vehicles (VW Rabbits and Ford Escorts were popular). You could buy a complete new car, the parts to build your own or a pre-owned one (like the electric postal vans). There were quite a few electric scooters and bikes there along with an 11.5 sec, 110 mph electric drag bike sponsored by Champion Spark Plugs. Walking through the grounds I happened upon a ring of haybales within which a bunch of smiling kids were driving small electric powered cars, each of which had it's own solar panel for power. See, something for everyone! On the hardware side of it you could see and touch every type ofAE hardware you've ever seen in a book or catalog including a few new ones. One of the most interesting pieces to me were some slick new solar DHW collectors using an evacuated glass tube (ie., in vacuum) which housed a copper tube with the usual collector plates attached. These puppy's were super efficient and yielded hot showers long into the night for the Home Power Magazine crew. I also liked the display of converted 12vdc washing machines, retrofitted normal commercial models that used 1/3 the usual amount of power. The information mongers were also out in force. Solar energy schools were represented as were several book vendors and (of course) Home Power Magazine which had a booth complete with free issues of the mag, computers, ample power and even some elctric guitars and amplifiers (from which some very good music came after the Expo was closed down to the public). I met some great folks there, spent many an hour hanging out and chatting up our echo here, and learned a tremendous amount lurking at the edges of some of the discussions. I also demoed the echo and email concepts to a few folks and handed out sheets explaining what we are doing online which listed all the participating systems. This is also going to be published in the next issue of Home Power mag which should give us a good shot in the arm so to speak. If you don't want your board listed (fat chance) speak up soon please. Enough already! I've got a lot more to share with you but it will have to wait for another day....this on's rushing to a close and I'm still trying to catch up on that lost sleep. I want to tell you about the hydrogen car, the steam powered stuff at the museum across the street, the solar cookers.....but later (grin). DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 641 8-13-91 8:41pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Don Kulha <07-29-91 06:35> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> Yeah, for $20,000 a person can have a real power system, TO> using batteries, hydor-electric (1 KW wheel) and 2.5 KW TO> inverter. TO> So if a person has a good source of water it would pay off TO> in 20 years! I think it depends upon the size of the installation. After reviewing the situation, it seems you could make money in hydro, but it depends upon the scale of the project. In our area out here, there are many rivers which have existing dams, circa 1800's. Some of the sites here are able to generate 1000 hp... and, they are sitting idle... there is a 700+ hp, approx. 500+ kw site right down the street from us. Several people have tried to get the rights to harness it again (the mill burned down 50+ years ago), but neighbors complain and petition... they would hate to see the water fall not have any water flowing over it. (I am serious!) Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 642 8-14-91 11:30pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Gale et All... Re: Windpower Product Vendors Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Per my promise to Gale who called LD from S. Dakota last night for info on vendors of wind power machines here are a few you may want to contact: Bergy Windpower, 2001 Priestley Ave., Norman OK 73069, (405)364-4212 (Voice) or (405)364-2078 (Fax) World Power Technologies, 19 Lake Ave. N. Duluth MN (218)722-1492 (Voice), (218)727-6888 (Fax) Lake Michigan Wind and Sun, 3971 East Bluebird Rd., Forestville, WI 54213, (414)837-2267 (Voice) Electron Connection, POB #203, Hornbrook CA 96044 (916)475-3401 (Distributing SOMA Wind Generators) Kansas Wind Power, R1-HP, Holton KS 66436, (913)364-4407, Used Wind gens, towers, parts Practically all the major AE equipment vendors can supply you with the small type windpower generators which look to be based on automotive alternators (albeit with modifications, furling systems, propellors, pivots, etc.) Contact the folks listed above as I *think* most of them consider wind power a specialty of theirs. DCK P.S.-At least a couple of these folks can supply you with AC type systems which minimize wiring losses if you want the wind machine out in the "back 40" to cut down on noise. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 643 8-14-91 11:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Signing the Declaration Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ One of the interesting things that happened at SEER was the Declaration of Energy Independance. This document was ratified by the "New Energy Congress", basically a group of citizens including folks in the AE industry, the SEER organizers and other parties interested in our country's energy future. The Declaration was printed on parchment, signed by the above and will be delivered to the White House in Washington D.C. by folks driving a fleet of solar and electric powered cars next month. Will it make a difference? Perhaps not to the administration in Washington since they have already delivered their energy agenda (more production). We have hopes that other members of the government may be influenced and of course those of us who signed this document feel something of a renewed commitment to conservation and alternative energy. Then too, having signed it we'll all probably end up in some government database as dangerous subversives (...grin). The following are portions of the Declaration to give you some flavor of it: "When in the course of global events it becomes necessary for people to renounce Energy Policies which endanger life on Earth and to put forward new policies which sustain the quality of life for all creatures to which the laws of nature entitle them, a decent respect for the opinion of others requires that the causes that impel this renunciation should be explained." "We hold these truths to be self evident: that all creatures and their offspring in perpetuity are endowed equally with certain inalienable rights; that among these are Clean Air, Fresh Water and a Safe Enviornment. That whenever any policy becomes destructive of these rights, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish that policy, and to replace it with one that will protect Safety, Health and Happiness." It goes on to list our enviornmental problems, the pollution of air, land, water (ocean and inland), the waste of natural resources and the potential for personal injury due to chemical and nuclear accidents. Then it suggests some actions we should follow to help aleviate these problems. Finally it closes with the statement: "In support of this Declaration of Energy Independance we mutually pledge to each other our commitment to promote concious and conservative use of energy and to these goals we dedicate our lives." A little "hokey"? Yes, sure it is. No harm done and it makes it easier for many folks to understand. It's importance is that let those of us who signed it reaffirm our personal dedication to helping clean up our act on this planet (which is part of the reason I started this echo). I'll keep the political content of my posts down to a minimum but this seemed to merit being told because the problems we face are real ones and it may help inspire others to take steps which will benefit us all. DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 644 8-14-91 11:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: tv Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Used to have satelite tv but lightning somewhere down the grid burned the decoder. Never got it fixed. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 645 8-14-91 11:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: info Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have been looking at wind power generators primarily because the REA wants 6 grand to run juice to where I want to build a home and shop. I do not want to give up my lathes, milling machine etc so I am sure I will have to have a gas driven generator to handle them but it seems wind would handle everything else. The mill and latyhe each have 220 volt 2 horse motors so batteries might be overloadedd unless I spent more than REA wants on them. And I always thought REA was supposed to be for getting *low cost* power to rural areas. $6000 is not my idea of low cost to bring power 1 mile !!! I am looking for a good wind system in the 1500-2000 watt range. I recently purchased some military 28 volt alternators with built in regulators. Could these be used to build a wind generator if I decided their production rates would be as good as the bigger units? The alternators are off M151A2 trucks and are in good working order. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 646 8-15-91 12:13am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: oops Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I might have given an incorrect indication of my thoughts. I know the M151A2 alternators would not produce any where near the wattage of the 1500 watt or more generators but I meant could they be used to make a wind plant if I decided i did not want so much power. They are rated at 60 amps if I remember correctly --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 647 8-15-91 11:33am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Don Kulha Re: Vortex nozzles Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > the hot air,what do we do with it, pipe it to Sacromento to > > keep the Politicians going? (haha) but really, a windmill > > The hot air output side of the nozzle could have many > applications. It could be used for heating water or to help drying > produce (fruits/veggies/jerky). Or, of course, there is heating the home (while cooling the fridge), running the dryer, and 170 degrees doesn't require much more heat to produce steam, which could power the vortex! I'm getting a little to far ahead, I think. >>>W>F>C>3> --- FD 1.99c * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 648 8-14-91 2:43pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > As for gettin rid of nucelar..well there are uses for nuclear we > haven't done much with yet, especially spacecraft.. We would have more atomic energy usage if our nation wasn't so worried about it. Think about the Galileo that we almost didn't launch because some weirdo Florida environmental group was worry about the fifty pounds of plutonium on board. Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping solar energy into a battery. We need both technologies, nuclear and solar, not one-or-the-other. >>>W>F>C>3> --- FD 1.99c * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 649 8-12-91 6:53pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Table Saws.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Terry, TK> TK> Now *THAT* makes considerably more sense!!!!!! (-: TK> TK> *SAY*, what's this about steam? Of *COURSE* steam can TK>be piped efficiently 500 feet and more (just ask the TK>operators of the geothermal powerplants 15 miles from here!). TK>(-: TK> TK>Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, TK>Steam Enthusiast! TK> TK>--- ConfMail V3.31 TK> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 TK>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Steam? If you see the headers and taglines you may be able to contact the people you wish. I know something about remote power systems, and there have been a couple of people posting in this echo about steam. Sometimes line noise,etc. make computer message traffic less than 100%. I haven't posted any original information about steam.. Steam and I get along fine ioin the shower????? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 650 8-12-91 6:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK> DK>> that sounds like useful stuff, if a bit expensive! Does it DK>> keep out corrosion as well? Does a treated terminal corrode DK>> less than an untreated one? DK>> --- DK> I can only speak of my experience with the stuff and DK>microcomputers. I haven't even layed eyes on the Cramolim DK>(sp?) compounds and haven't used the stabilant in any really DK>corrosive enviornments yet. I gave Richard from Home Power DK>mag an info packet on this stuff (all the hard info I had) DK>and expect if it's useful for battery/inverter/AE DK>applications we'll hear from him about it. I suggest writing DK>the manufacturers of the products and asking them about it. DK>My gut level feeling as to whether they keep out corrosion is DK>"probably"...I believe thats what they're supposed to do. No DK>hard data to support that though.....DCK And my only hard data is on K-Y jelly or vasaline..it works! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 651 8-13-91 05:29am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Guy Hokanson To: Tom Keller Re: Steam... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > *SAY*, what's this about steam? Of *COURSE* steam > can be piped efficiently 500 feet and more (just ask the > operators of the geothermal powerplants 15 miles from > here!). (-: For sure! We pipe it around here all over the place through 10 inch insulated pipes, at distances well over 500 feet from two seperate plants. The steam is used to for large heaters in our aircraft hangers, and for some shop applications. Believe it or not it's more economical then element heaters. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Aerospace Technology BBS (1:212/5.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 652 8-15-91 11:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: Signing the Declaration Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, *DAMN*!!! and double *DAMN*!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had been able to be at SEER to participate in the Declaration! *nasty words* As you know, Don, I am involved in the recycling industry. I make it a policy to practice what I preach (and sell). I am working feverishly on the Tesla Turbines because I see them as a potential means of substantially reducing the environmental impact of my operation. I use a lot of vacuum and blower systems, which with grid electrical power, eat a *LOT* of energy, and thereby contribute to pollution of all sorts (chemical, aesthetic, thermal, etc.). If I can develop efficient, hydrogen powered steam turbines to provide my vacuums and blowers with kinetic energy, I will be *VERY* pleased. By the by, Don, in thinking about your wanting to use discarded HD platters for an experimental prototype, I realized a flaw that may actually over-shadow your discovery that these platters probably would not stand up to the speeds involved. Specifically, Telsa's 18" dia. 200 HP test turbine used .03125" disks. I don't know the precise measurements of HD platters, but they are CONSIDERABLY thicker than that. Given the difference in diameter vs. thickness, I can't help but wonder whether or not the mass/diameter ration of the disks might make such a turbine unworkable. It would almost certainly make any information gleaned from such a turbine virtually worthless. What do you think? By the by, I am planning an experimental solar steam generator, which I hope to have in prototype by January or so. I know someone in the steam engineering industry, who is providing me with information on how to instrument the prototype for measurements, etc. Will keep you all apprised of the progress of this project. Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 653 8-15-91 11:38am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Gale Barrows Re: info Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ $6K may indeed by a lot of dinero, but check into what a typical for-profit electric utility would charge you for the same installation, and I think you'll agree that REA is much more reasonable. Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 654 8-15-91 11:40am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I object most vehemently to your typification of environmentally concerned citizens as "wierdos." Plutonium is not only highly radioactive, it is also incredibly toxic chemically. 50 lbs. of plutonium, should the spacecraft burn up in the atmosphere, would (not *COULD*, not *MIGHT*, but ***WOULD***!) significantly contaminate an incredibly large geographical area with radioactive, toxic plutonium oxides in a very finely divided particulate form. The safety record of the space program is not anywhere **NEAR** good enough to cause any rationaly being to assume that such an accident is unlikely. To denigrate concerned individuals for expressing perfectly reasonable concerns is fascistic, irresponsible and highly inflammatory. There is room for disagreement on these issues, but it is unneccessary and counter-productive to reduce the disagreement to the personal, ad hominem level. Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 655 8-15-91 11:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Platters et All... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 15 Aug 91 11:30:03 > From: Tom Keller > To: Don Kulha > > I use a lot of vacuum and blower systems, which with > grid electrical power, eat a *LOT* of energy, and thereby > contribute to pollution of all sorts (chemical, aesthetic, > thermal, etc.). If I can develop efficient, hydrogen > powered steam turbines to provide my vacuums and blowers > with kinetic energy, I will be *VERY* pleased. One of the things I keep getting from talking to folks in the AE field is that the most direct use of an energy source (ie., the least conversion steps used) the more efficient and better off you are. I don't really think you need to generate the hydrogen to make steam. SEGS9 (Solar Eneergy Generating Station #9) which is run by the Lutz Corporation in SoCal makes 354 MEGAwatts of power from a solar powered steam turbine set-up. It's their 9th system like this and they sell the power to Southern Cal Edison at a profit. The system consists of a field of parabolic reflectors which focus on a tube (1 per reflector) encased in an evacuated glass tube. The tube contains a synthetic oil used as a heat transfer fluid @ 700+ degress which in turn is plumbed to a heat exchanger in a boiler which turns a multistage turbine. They claim an efficency of 35% capture of the nearly 1kw/sq. meter of incident solar energy on the reflectors. They are working on a new system by which they will generate the steam in the tubes in front of the reflectors and figure efficencies will be close to 50%. Now if the recycling operation can generate excess power to sell to PG&E during peak periods of use with such a set-up getting cheaper power off-peak back from them shouldn't be a burden. you'd likely make money. It's something to think on anyway. > > By the by, Don, in thinking about your wanting to use > discarded HD platters for an experimental prototype, I > realized a flaw that may actually over-shadow your discovery > that these platters probably would not stand up to the > speeds involved. Specifically, Telsa's 18" dia. 200 HP test > turbine used .03125" disks. I don't know the precise > measurements of HD platters, but they are CONSIDERABLY > thicker than that. Given the difference in diameter vs. > thickness, I can't help but wonder whether or not the > mass/diameter ration of the disks might make such a turbine > unworkable. It would almost certainly make any information > gleaned from such a turbine virtually worthless. What do > you think? > I am waiting patiently for some info I've ordered which will shed more light on some of the details. We aren't going to use the disk platters as I've decided to make a real work-capable engine and the aluminum platters would explode at the speeds we want to turn (might use 416 stainless but I'm waiting for the info). Am not sure if the thickness of the rotors is important or not besides rotational stresses and rate of acceleration. We don't think so. Flatness and run out of the disks is probably more important than the thickness so we may make a tradeoff there. Tesla's original disks were 1/32" thick as you mentioned with about .100 between them and ran 9000 rpm at 200hp. We're only shooting for 5-10hp max (or less) so a 6-8" diameter disk should be about right. While I wait am researching a passive solar tracker similar to the Zomeworks unit (anyone know what their working fluid is?) and a boiler-less steam generator (low pressure) I recently heard of (low volume/high pressure positive displacement pump spraying water into a super heated metal expansion chamber). The fun never stops. > By the by, I am planning an experimental solar steam > generator, which I hope to have in prototype by January or > so. I know someone in the steam engineering industry, who > is providing me with information on how to instrument the > prototype for measurements, etc. Will keep you all > apprised of the progress of this project. Sounds like fun...Please DO!.........DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 656 8-16-91 12:27am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: ATN Magazine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ One of the things I hoped to accomplish at SEER was to check out Michael Hackleman's new magazine "Alternative Transportation News". As it turned out Michael was over "hacking" on one of the solar racers but my friends at Home Power mag had copies of the first two issues of this interesting (I almost said exciting-which for me would have been true!) new magazine. I'm hooked....I snapped up the first two issues and would have subscribed on the spot if they'd been accepting subs. It's good stuff if you're interested in the field. Electric powered cars are only one facet of this 'zine. There were articles on solar powered aircraft, lighter-than-air craft, an interview with Paul MacCready (the guy behind the record breaking human powered plane and the GM Sunracer car), Minimalist design and practical Human Powered vehicles, a desert solar-steam electric plant (350+ clean Megawatts!), batteries, electrathon racers, alternative fuels, an electric powered 1949 Glocker Porsche.....great stuff! It's well written, laid-out in a professional and pleasing manner and the first 2 issues ran 32 pages (probably a wieght/price point for postage for non-profit corps). My only complaint is that it was too short; I was definitly hungry for more after my appetite had been whetted. I think alternative powered vehicles are very important in the broader scheme of things. Even a vehicle as benign and well tuned as my volks with it's little 90 cubic inch motor belches far too many pollutants for me to be comfortable. Electric vehicles, charged at night when there's a surplus of clean hydro power to do it with are practical now for the types of short runs that comprise the bulk of the driving most of us do. I really want an EV so I can save my van for longer runs than the EV is practical for and for when I need to haul something big. Maybe they're not for everybody but lots of us could benefit from using them....(and snicker every time we pass the gas station).....DCK Access: Alternative Transportation News, POB 743, Mariposa CA 95338 Publishing Offices, 720 Brooks Ave., Venice CA 90291, Phone: (213)396-1527. Published by EarthMind, a CA Non-profit corp since 1972. 6 Bi-monthly issues $20/yr mailed 3rd class. P.S.-And yes, I know EV's need periodic battery changes which eat up some of the savings but heck, Those can be recycled far easier than the pollutants from my tailpipe. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 657 8-16-91 12:28am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Electric Tractors Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ A while back in the Sustainable agriculture echo conference Lawrence London, the moderator was mentioning that he'd love to have an electric tractor. I ran across and ad for one in Solar Mind magazine that read as follows: "ELECTRIC TRACTORS - 36 Volt GE ElectTrak Garden Tractors and Mowers. Rated 8-16 horsepower. Quietly mow, rototill, plow, tow a trailer, blade dirt, remove snow. Can provide remote power for chainsaws, trimmers, drills. Add an inverter for remote or emergency AC power." From the rather funky photo they printed it looks like an oversize 2wd garden tractor, which actually could serve many folks quite well. Might be worth looking into. I like the idea of semi-permanently mounting a small inverter on it. I think more details are in order. Anyone know about these? ACCESS: Kansas Wind Power, Route 1-SM, Holton KS 66436 (913)364-4407 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 658 8-15-91 8:12pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: MicroHydro Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-11-91 19:17> Don Kulha wrote: DK> Home Power Issue #23 had an excellent article titled DK> "Ultra-Low Head Hydro" that would probably be of interest. Are back issues of Home Power available? DK> years. The know how and hardware were everywhere. In the DK> eastern part of America, the power of small streams near DK> populated areas was developed and put to work. All the way Is this the correct echo for small commercial hydro producers? Around here there is an organization called "CSPA" (Connecticut Small Power Producers Association, PO Box 405, Putnam CT 06260), which is an organization made up of people who generate... they charge for membership by the kW... $35 Base Membership, $85 for 1 to 100kW, $135 for 101-250kW, $185 for 251-500kW and $335 for 501+ kW; Equipment suppliers, engineers, service-orientated members are $85... They deal with: Biomass, Cogeneration, Hydro, Waste and others. I am evaluating the possibility of looking for a site and setting up a small hydro site... I have heard there is money to be made in it... I think it would take a 250-500kW site to be practicle (since the rate is running $.03 to $.05 for contracted sales, according to CSPA sources). There seems to be a few good sites of large enough size to do this in outer reaches of the northern New England countryside. My father is a retired Pratt and Whitney Aircraft engineer and I am a former welder-fabricator turned computer enthusiast. He has suggested "generating 250-500kW of power of with an overshot type (approx. 15' high x 12' wide) home-built (steel and pressure treated wood components) wheel could be possible with Army surplus generators." I have called Leffel and new turbines of that size (with a matched generator) run about $400k (wow!), any ideas/suggestions on this one or alternatives? Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 659 8-15-91 8:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Turbine Engine Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Michael Favor <08-03-91 10:36> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > could you try to describe in a few words how the DK> > turbine works, and some of the considerations in DK> How it works....well, it's not proven that it does to DK> my satisfaction yet but we'll have to see...If it doesn't There is a nice little section on the Tesla Turbine a book I found in the library called the Patents of N. Tesla... gee, there sure are a lot of things of interest, including his ideas for sending electricty through the air with out wires! BTW, there was also a flipside to that turbine, a Tesla Pump of similar design among a whole load of other patents. Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 660 8-15-91 05:10am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Rich Jensen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RJ>complain and petition... they would hate to see the water RJ>fall not have any water flowing over it. (I am serious!) Then, I beleive you..people are so transitory in viewpoint..and with a full belly and a warm place to sleep, who cares about it? I guess I know what you mean. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 661 8-15-91 05:13am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: tv Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>Used to have satelite tv but lightning somewhere down the GB>grid burned GB>the decoder. Never got it fixed. I have a 12 foot dish (for 2 megahertz not 4) standing around right now. I got it free from a commercial company that updated. But who watches TV with books to read and computers to play with? Ha, its great and someday..... Maybe the decoder (what a hasell decoders!) need to be replaced, or maybe by then, it will all be clear? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 662 8-15-91 05:19am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: info Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>I have been looking at wind power generators primarily GB>because the REA wants 6 grand to run juice to where I want to GB>build a home and shop. I do not want to give up my lathes, GB>milling machine etc so I am sure I will have to have a gas GB>driven generator to handle them but it seems wind would GB>handle everything else. The mill and latyhe each have 220 GB>volt 2 horse motors so batteries might be overloadedd unless GB>I spent more than REA wants on them. GB> And I always thought REA was supposed to be for getting GB>*low cost* power to rural areas. $6000 is not my idea of low GB>cost to bring power 1 mile !!! GB> I am looking for a good wind system in the 1500-2000 watt GB>range. I recently purchased some military 28 volt alternators GB>with built in regulators. Could these be used to build a wind GB>generator if I decided their production rates would be as GB>good as the bigger units? The alternators are off M151A2 GB>trucks and are in good working order. GB> GB>--- ConfMail V3.31 GB> * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 GB>(707)545-0746 (1:125/7) Well first Of ala, I think so and how much did you spend per alternater and will you sell some of them? (I am kidding, obviously you bought what you needed, but if you have more than you want??) I am fairly sure you can use what you have to produce what you want! Each alternater (about twice as big as a car alternator right?) can produce about 1 KW, 1000 watts. Can you put a rubber wheel on the shaft to act as a gear? And then position the rubber wheel against a round steel piece to pick up power? This way you can use several! see next message.. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 663 8-15-91 05:33am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: windmill description Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The windmill the alternaters could pick up power from .... ---------------------------- ---------------------------- - - - - - - - - ---------------------------- ---------------------------- O.K., the verticle shaft of this verticle axis machine gets the power and runs down through bearings. the double ---- is a pipe, top and bottem. The pipe is bent into a circle. So if you look down on it, you see a circle of pipe and a shaft in the middle. Bending the pipe with a pipe bending machine to the diameter of your choice would be a main cost. Then weld the pieces so bent on site. The sails are verticle sails and made of sailcloth. The beauty of it is, the alternaters can pick up power from the bottem pipe directly, no gears at all! Well, a sensor is needed to know the windmill is turning and how fast it is turning..to control the alternater field coils.. I'm talking two circles of pipe, welded on site but bent remotely and trucked to site. I'm talking verticle sails of sailcloth for safety. And the sails are held with a shaft on one side and a steel cable on the other side. The sails are maybe 6 inches to two feet wide. I'm talking 15-40 feet of diameter. If any of this makes sense, if you follow the reasoning..let me know, I'll tell you more..I've done a lot of thinking and reading for this very safe, and (if one can find pipe and alternaters) inexpensive windmill! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 664 8-15-91 05:40am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: oops Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Let's see..60amps * 28volts = 1680watts. That is 1.6Kilowatts at 28volts. But another possibilty probably happens too....an alternater (hope I got this right) produces alternating current. The DC part happens because there are diodes, perhaps 6 diodes, as part of the alternater. These are often screwed into the alternater. And without the diodes..AC! In a car or truck we apply a turning shaft (has to turn about 1800 RPM) and take electrical power, controlling the field current to produce the voltage we want. But a windmill applies a turning shaft (no control of how fast, but 50-300RPM) and we mostly want all of the power to go into 24Volts of batteries? Is this the idea? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 665 8-15-91 05:46am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC>Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right BC>away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping BC>solar energy into a battery. We need both technologies, BC>nuclear and solar, not one-or-the-other. BC> * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - Is it Columbus Ohio? Nice! And I surely agree..both technologies (and more) are needed! What gave you the idea I was against one or the other? Was it something I wrote here? Maybe it was a response I made toward nuclear being useful....as opposed to all of use using nothing but solar energy via roof panels? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 666 8-15-91 07:19am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Fritz Oppliger To: Don Kulha Re: greetings Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi there- Thanks for doing all this work! I'm glad this resource is now available for computerists too. I live in a 12V household. Though I did for a time run my Commodore on 12VDC I am currently using a HEART 300W inverter- it handles dips in the power supply better, i.e. turning on another device doesn't threaten to bring down the computer. Come tho think of it, MY power system was far more reliable last winter than PG&E which went out several times! thanks again- Fritz Oppliger PS Couldn't make it to Willits but will try next year... f --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 667 8-16-91 11:56pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Fritz Oppliger Re: Greetings... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 15 Aug 91 07:19:00 > From: Fritz Oppliger > To: Don Kulha > Hi there- > Thanks for doing all this work! I'm glad this resource is > now available for computerists too. I live in a 12V > household. Though I did for a time run my Commodore on 12VDC > I am currently using a HEART 300W inverter- it handles dips > in the power supply better, i.e. turning on another device > doesn't threaten to bring down the computer. > Come tho think of it, MY power system was far more reliable > last winter than PG&E which went out several times! > thanks again- > Fritz Oppliger > PS Couldn't make it to Willits but will try next year... Glad you could join us Fritz. This is a great way to discuss alternative energy and Home Power systems in it's various aspects. It's been long overdue. A lot of folks I know living off the grid are using computers and are very happy using inverters. I looked for years for a conference on AE and even floated the idea out into our network via it's weekly electronic newsletter a couple times...finally it just came time to grab the bull by the horns. It's going quite well and growing quickley. Glad you're here to share your experience. Now how in the heck does one ground a floating object? DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 668 8-17-91 12:11am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 15 Aug 91 20:12:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Don Kulha > > Are back issues of Home Power available? > As of last weekend they still had some copys of issue #23. It cost $3.50 "shipped ASAP via first class mail in an envelope or box". Their address is POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044. > > I am evaluating the possibility of looking for a site and > setting up a small hydro site... I have heard there is > money to be made in it... I think it would take a 250-500kW > site to be practicle (since the rate is running $.03 to $.05 > for contracted sales, according to CSPA sources). There > seems to be a few good sites of large enough size to do this > in outer reaches of the northern New England countryside. > My father is a retired Pratt and Whitney Aircraft engineer > and I am a former welder-fabricator turned computer > enthusiast. He has suggested "generating 250-500kW of power > of with an overshot type (approx. 15' high x 12' wide) > home-built (steel and pressure treated wood components) > wheel could be possible with Army surplus generators." I > have called Leffel and new turbines of that size (with a > matched generator) run about $400k (wow!), any > ideas/suggestions on this one or alternatives? > In the H-P article they talk alot about verticle shaft "Francis" turbines, made by CMC, Fritz, Trump, Morgan Smith and the author Cameron MacLeod (he also mentions Rodney-Hunts). They are basically tubes containing screw type turbines that turn low RPM (70-500) and make from 9-168 kWh/day. Some specs cited on systems: 5' Head, 8" Dia., 3A @ 130v, 9.3 kWh, 72 cu.ft./min at 335 rpm 22" Head, 24" Dia, 3A @ 130v, 9.3 kWH, 520 cfm at 70 rpm 3' Head, 30" Dia., 35A @ 130v, 109 kWh, 2358 cfm @ 96 rpm 15' Head, 8" Dia., 12A @ 130v, 37.4 kWH, 130 cfm @ 580 rpm 4' Head, 27" Dia., 28A @ 250v, 168 kWh, 2190 cfm @ 123 rpm 10' Head, 12" Dia., 15A @ 130v, 46 kWh, 244 cfm @ 320 rpm It looks like you can make substanial amounts of power without much head and the hardware looks fairly simple. I'll trade some percentage efficency for simplicity most any day. These also look fairly easy to engineer and build...am sure your dad and you could do it with a bit of research. Heck if they could do it 50 years ago... DCK P.S.-One pic shows three turbines in a row....hummmm.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 669 8-17-91 12:47am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > And my only hard data is on K-Y jelly or vasaline..it works! > --- I would swear I heard Richard Perez mention at SEER that he didn't use anything at all.....I don't on car batterys and the like....maybe I'm just lucky! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 817 8-17-91 06:41am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Connectors/corrosion Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yeah, good luck and a clean battery will get you very little corrosion. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 818 8-17-91 06:44am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If the water doesn't have much head then a LOT of water is needed. My understanding of present day working applications come from the Central California Valley, where low head is real and large quantities of water produce some electricity. We installed such a system in Northern California, a small river was used. Low flow, lots of water..10KW --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 819 8-17-91 06:46am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: Greetings... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>experience. Now how in the heck does one ground a floating DK>object? DK> DCK The odds are good you could hang a conductor into the water...! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 820 8-18-91 12:30pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Tom Keller Re: REA vs Commercial Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The local commercial utility said their fee for puting in the same line would be $1500 less than the REA price !!! Unfortunately, they have an agreement with REA that REA will have the sole service in the area. Something is rotten here and it isn't even Denmark !!! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 821 8-18-91 12:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: windmill description Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I bought 3 motors, two transmission/transfer cases, two pairs of differentials, 2 radiators, and 2 starters at a DRMO surplus sale for $140 dollars. The motors are actualy Ford 4 cylinder industrial engines as I understand it. The alternators on the engines are rated 60 amps at 28 volts which comes out to 1680 watts. outa time . would like more info. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 822 8-18-91 10:31pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Charging 1 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Recharging Batteries With A Gas Generator by Windy Dankoff Many photovoltaic systems begin as gas generator charged battery systems. As the system evolves with your needs and finances, the generator may be semiretired and used only for occasional back up. Either way, an efficient system must be used to deliver DC power to charge the batteries. There are three good methods of charging batteries from a generator. DC GENERATOR A gasoline powered DC generator/alternator is a direct approach for battery charging. None are available ready made to the best of my knowledge. Many people build their own using a common gasoline engine of 3 to 5 HP belted to a car or truck alternator. Get an alternator WITHOUT a built in regulator (do not use an auto regulator). A 5 HP engine will drive a 100 Amp alternator to full power (reduced some at high altitudes). Use a rheostat (25 ohm, 25 watt) to regulate the current manually. See Home Power #2, pgs. 23 through 26, for details on construction of this type of unit. AC GENERATOR with BATTERY CHARGER This is the most popular method because AC generators are so common and versatile. Many of our customers run an AC generator periodically to pump their water, wash their clothes or run tools. At the same time a battery charger is plugged in to make best use of the generator's capacity by charging their batteries. LP gas is a preferable fuel to gasoline, for cleaner burning and easier starting. Slower, 1800 RPM generators are longer lasting and more efficient than faster 3600 RPM models, but are heavier and more expensive. Many AC generators have 12 Volt charging capability but its current capacity in Amperes is small. The 12V output and the output of a battery charger may BOTH be connected to the battery bank at the same time! WELDER/GENERATOR A "portable welder" is a generator built to supply arc welding power. A welder puts out approximately 30 volts, at a current of 200 Amps or more. Perfect for charging a large 24 volt battery bank! On a low setting it will charge at 12 volts. If you KNOW you need to rely largely on your generator (like if you live in Alaska) or if you like to weld AND have a large battery bank (at least 1000 Amp hour) this may be the best way to go. Most portable welders also have AC output for tools etc. Get a DC welder. If you already have an AC welder, a rectifier may be built to convert to DC. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 823 8-18-91 10:32pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Charger 2 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BATTERY CHARGERS Battery chargers are common devices, available everywhere. Here are a few things to know about them: (A) Any automotive charger can charge a very large battery bank; it only "sees" the voltage, not the battery's Ampere-hour capacity. If the battery is very large, it will take longer to recharge. (B) More than one charger may be connected at once, and so can other charge sources such as PV. Each regulator responds as battery voltage rises, regardless of the charge source. (C) Automatic (regulated) battery chargers tend to regulate too soon for the fast charging that is desirable with a generator AND they may regulate to a low current suited to a small (car) battery. Buy a "manual" charger, or switch your charger to manual. If you will be charging from utility power, use an automatic charger. (D) Battery chargers are expensive. They contain only one expensive part though, the transformer. Transformers rarely fail. Big garage type battery chargers may often be found in scrap metal yards, beat to hell by such abuse as someone driving away with the charger connected. A little rewiring and replacement of small parts will almost always restore a charger to reliable use, however ugly. (E) Truck and industrial battery chargers are available for 24 volt charging. If you're a junkie, check scrap yards. (F) Two 12 volt chargers of equal capacity can charge 24 volts by connecting each one to each half of the bank. (G) Industrial electric vehicle chargers are of higher quality and efficiency than automotive, but are expensive. INVERTERS WITH "STANDBY" BATTERY CHARGING OPTION Trace Engineering and Heart Interface inverters have an optional battery charging function, which works well. This option costs far less than a separate battery charger of equivalent capacity. This inverter's transformer is used "backwards" to step down the voltage. (Remember, the transformer is the expensive part of a battery charger). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 824 8-18-91 10:33pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Chargers 3 of 3 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Trace inverters are particularly good in this regard because of their "programmable" regulating response, which you may set optimally for your particular system. Trace features an additional advantage, although not yet clearly documented....charging is accomplished thru pulses of very high current which slightly vibrate the battery plates and knock off inactive sulphate crystals. This tends to restore some capacity in older batteries, and to extend battery life. To obtain the full effect, you need a generator with at least double the wattage of the inverter, and high (over 165 vac PEP) peak voltage output. FAST CHARGING Beware.... service station attendants and many auto mechanics do not know what it MEANS to fully recharge a battery. Less than an hour of high current charge on a dead car battery will allow a car to start, but cannot charge the battery anywhere near full. If you take batteries to town to have them charged, be sure they are kept on the charger at least 8 hours. A hydrometer reading is the best way to assure that they are "topped off". Failure to top off or "finish charge" batteries at least every two weeks will reduce their life greatly. Beware of excessive gassing when fast charging.... it's hard on the batteries and creates a very real explosion hazard! Don't make a habit of it. Photovoltaic CHARGING AS SUPPLEMENT TO GAS CHARGING Finish charging, as mentioned, is extremely important to long battery life. Any cell that tends to lag slightly behind the others will be brought up to full, instead of falling further behind. This requires long periods of low current "trickle" charging, which is very wasteful use of a generator BUT perfect use of a small PV array. Although a minimal PV array may contribute relatively little energy to a generator system, it will pay for itself by extending battery life. If your generator system is used only seasonally, a small PV module should be used to maintain your battery bank at full charge during the months you are gone. A typical deep cycle battery (in GOOD shape) will discharge half way in 6 months, and sitting in a low state of charge is VERY DAMAGING. Whether you consider your fossil fuel generator to be a luxury, a convenience, or a necessary evil, making the best interface with your battery bank deserves your careful attention. Windy Dankoff is the owner of WINDLIGHT WORKSHOP and FLOWLIGHT SOLAR PUMPS, POB 548, Santa crux, NM 87567 (505) 753-9699. Windlight's 1988 CATALOG AND HANDBOOK is available for $6. For information on DC well and booster pumps, inquire. Courtesy of and copyrighted by Home Power Magazine From Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 825 8-18-91 11:34am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-15-91 05:10> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> RJ>fall not have any water flowing over it. (I am TO> Then, I beleive you..people are so transitory in TO> viewpoint..and with a full belly and a warm place to sleep, TO> who cares about it? Well, nuclear power is out there providing what people call "safe" energy, since there has not been a major disaster yet... so I guess who would care, maybe after we have a serious problem people will start to change their views... I think we should go to more localized power, in the northeast we have many rivers and streams, other areas there are good sites for windmills, solar is good almost anywhere... Homepower is a good thing for the pioneers to be in, making the way praticale and a reality for all of us. Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 826 8-18-91 11:43am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-17-91 00:11> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > Are back issues of Home Power available? DK> As of last weekend they still had some copys of issue Thanks! I will send for one of them this week. DK> It looks like you can make substanial amounts of power DK> without much head and the hardware looks fairly simple. Thanks for the assistance. I am sure this might be an easier way to do it, by stacking, but, I wonder about cost of the units... I guess I will have to wait till back issues get here so I can get that info... Thanks A Lot, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 827 8-19-91 07:00am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Brittle Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 18 Aug 91 11:34:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Terry Olsen > I think we should go to more localized power, in the > northeast we have many rivers and streams, other areas there > are good sites for windmills, solar is good almost > anywhere... Homepower is a good thing for the pioneers to be > in, making the way praticale and a reality for all of us. > Amory Lovins wrote a book a few years back called "Brittle Power" which talked about some of the problems with the type of centralized power production and distribution system that most folks in the US depend on. It makes some good points to reccomend decentralizing our power production to more regional types of generation. You may want to snag it at your library and read it. Small scale power generation is important, not just for those who want to live off the grid here in the US but more so for what we refer to as the "third world". I was talking to a doctor who had spent time in south and central America a while back. He was saying that the folks living in the outback there didn't have a problem with getting vaccines and medicines per say but with keeping it. With the nearest power generating plant hundreds of miles away and it being impractical to bring in fuel to fire a gas generator it was difficult to refridgerate medicine so it would stay available for when they needed it. Several health organizations sponsor independant small scale solar generation stations that basically power a few lights and a refridgerator and/or freezer for rural health clinics. Another important use of solar for them is water pumping to which PV's are well suited. To many folks in the third world a failed crop is more than an inconvienience, it means the difference between life and death for some of them. Being able to pump water from a deep well or uphill from the nearest viable stream can save many hours of back-breaking hard work for the village caught in dire straits. The technology we're developing and "growing" so we can have our VCRs and computers to use take on life and death importance in other less affluent parts of the world. DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 828 8-19-91 6:01pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Thanks for the assistance. I am sure this might be an > easier way to do it, by stacking, but, I wonder about cost > of the units... I guess I will have to wait till back > issues get here so I can get that info... > Rich, I don't have the article handy but I think most of the manufacturers have long since quit handling these turbines. That's not to say that a few aren't still building them. You'll have to check. Even so, it may be far cheaper to build your own. We're not talking exotic or high technology here......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 829 8-19-91 08:19am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: windmill description Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>alternators on the engines are rated 60 amps at 28 volts GB>which comes out to 1680 watts. outa time . would like more GB>info. As I said, alternators (generally) are a kind of generator and the current produced is rectified by diodes included in the altenator case. Is some ways +28 Volts DC and regulated is great! For example with a 24 volt battery system, it would make a great charger! The extra 4 Volts would just become current and there would be the need to have an overcharge protector that would turn off the +28 volt charger. Another option would be to remove the diodes and use the AC produced by the alternator. But before you get to AC or DC, perhaps the first question is windmill design. The grear transfer cases and differentials give you some options, certainly! And obviously you have done some reading.. Because most windmills use the central shaft to transfer power to an alternator (has to 1500+ RPM) a gear transfer of some kind is needed. The windmill goes 50-300 RPM and the altenator requires 1500-2500RPM So to use the central shaft it would ne need gearing. But with three alternaters in mind, I mention the idea of a ring as the outer diameter of the windmill, and picking up power from the ring by positioning the alternaters against it (rubber wheel on the alternator). --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 830 8-20-91 1:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: I was, er, wrong... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I found an error in one of my posts this morning....The 354 MW/hr figure for the SEGS9 solar powerplant was in error. It should include all 9 solar/steam installations they have in the Mojave desert...not just number #9. Still damn impressive though.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 831 8-20-91 9:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Collector plate coatings Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm looking for info on low-emmissivety solar absorer plate coatings that can be applied by the end user. I seem to recall some product named something like "Tepal" which I think is/was a paint you could thin out and spray on. It might have been made by GE. The neat trick to this type of coating is that it is highly absorbing to certain wavelegnths of energy but it's emmisivity, or ability to re-radiate the energy it's absorbed is in another wavelegnth region which the coating tends to block. Flat black paint is as efficient as anything at enhancing absorbtion but it also has about the same emmision characteristics. I seem to recall that coperous oxide, black chrome (on nickle plating) and "Black nickle" plating were applied to copper collector plates to promote this high-absorbing/low-emmiting mechanism. In particular I'm interested in coatings that can be applied to the outside of copper and/or stainless steel tubing which will withstand very high temperatures generated generated by troughlike parabolic reflectors or fresnel lenses. The high temps will probably exclude the painted coatings but they'd still be good to know about for future projects. Your thoughts are appreciated.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 832 8-20-91 10:17pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: One more thing.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ One related question.....does anyone know how to seal a glass cylinder around a metal tube such that the tube ends protrude from the glass surrounding it? I've seen two applications of metal tubes in an evacuated glass tube as solar collectors lately and I was wondering if there's anyway to "home-brew" such a contrivance. Vacuum is an almost perfect insulator excluding blackbody energy emmissions. I hadn't seen it used before to contain heat except in vacuum jackets around liquid nitrogen delivery lines. Seeing the collection tubes got me thinking. I'll have to touch base with the local neon sign folks, they'll be a good place to start. I'm open to suggestions.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 833 8-20-91 7:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Scott Parks To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ >Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right >away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping solar >energy into a battery. We need both technologies, nuclear and >solar, not one-or-the-other. I would say, rather than "have to" use both .... we should re-evaluate our priorities and lessen our needs. You may say ... "a long way off" .... I say soon! Scott --- * Origin: | The Helix - USR*HST*DS | Seattle | Home Power | (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 834 8-19-91 4:41pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Electric Tractors Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > From the rather funky photo they printed > it looks like an > oversize 2wd garden tractor, which actually > could serve many folks > quite well. Might be worth looking into. I > like the idea of > semi-permanently mounting a small inverter on > it. I think more details > are in order. Anyone know about these? > Don, A good number of years ago, General Electric developed and sold the ElecTrac, an electric (battery) garden tractor that was as described. It had a mower deck out front that had 3 motors on it. They claimed at the time that you could mow an acre or two on a charge. It seems like they had some 36-volt stuff (chainsaws, week whackers, etc) to go with it. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 835 8-20-91 5:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kula Re: Recharging Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Read you coverage about re-charging batteries, very well covered. One other point I have found though, if you have a battery that has been compleatly drained of power, often it wont't take a charge. At least at a regular rate. I have found this is the ideal aplication for a "trickle" charger. I don't know why a compleatly dead battery wont take a fast charge, but I have revived them with a tricle charge, then brought them on up with say a 10 amp charger. The trickle charger I used was only 1 1/2 amp. Well so much for that, my 2 pennys have run out! Kepp up the good work, this is a very interesting echo!!!!!!!!!!! Bye!! --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 836 8-21-91 11:10am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: One more thing.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, For the life of me, I cannot remember the name of the material, but back when I was first studying electronics (screen grids, plates, cathodes, filaments (*OHNO*, vacuum tubes!!!!!)) I studied the use of this material, which is used as an intermediary in glass/metal bonds. The thermal coefficients of expansion between the glass and the metal are *HIGHLY* critical (big surprise, eh?). Let me see if I can find the name of that stuff in my old manuals...(hmm..lessee....how's about the Radiotron Engineer's Manual?). Will get back to you on this issue. Also, contact the physics department at SSU. They have a few folks there who fabricate their own laser tubes, so they know all about metal/glass bonding. Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 837 8-21-91 9:16pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Echo Conference status.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Time for a quickie review on the status of the HOMEPOWR echo conference. In a word "Excellent!". I have been very pleased to see the level of interest and participation there's been in a relatively new conference. Currently it is seen on about 20 systems scattered around the U.S. with more that have expressed an interest but we can't link directly with them (technical probs). Last month we applied for "backbone" distribution status which (for the non-sysops present) will give us authorization to distribute the conferency more widely and make it easier to participate for many systems.. We completed all the steps but one...being listed in the national echo list (we sent the application but....). We have received notification that HOMEPOWR will be in the next list, coming out in a couple weeks. With the other requirements already filled that should do it. It will take a while for the distribution links to be established but ultimatly this conference will be easily accessible to most of the 8,000+ Fidonet systems in the U.S....Then the fun really starts! I have received a couple queries about the echo from overseas, which is the next bridge to work on...and possibly the place some of the knowledge we share here can do the most good. Time will tell.....are we having fun yet? Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 838 8-21-91 9:49pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Light 1 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ 120 VAC Lighting & Inverters by Richard Perez Regular AC lighting devices are the most commonly used. These devices vary greatly in efficiency. Most homes, even AE homes, are required by building codes to be wired for 120 VAC. This article concentrates on getting the best values in 120 VAC lighting appliances when powered by the batteries and inverters used in home style AE systems. So Why Use the Inverter? Lighting devices are prime candidates for inverter supplied electricity. Lights spend an average of over 4 hours per day operating. They generally consume just a few hundred (or less) Watts of power. Running a 120 VAC power source is just not practical for such low powered and continually used appliances. If you are not using 12 VDC for your lighting, then your only other easy choice is 120 VAC. Since most AE sources are low voltage DC, the inverter is necessary to convert the low voltage DC to 120 VAC. The use of the inverter for lighting also has another advantage. Most already existing homes are not wired to accept 12 VDC. If you consider the cost of retrofitting a home for low voltage wiring, then the use of standard 120 VAC lighting devices and an inverter is a reasonable and cost effective alternative. The inverter allows usage of the already existing wiring and fixtures without modification. This saves considerable money in comparison with a complete rewire job requiring destruction of the walls and installation of specialized wiring. In general, if you are building a new AE powered structure, it is more cost effective to wire the structure for 12 VDC lighting. If you are dealing with a structure that is already constructed and wired for 120 VAC, then using an inverter and the already installed lighting fixtures is much less expensive than ripping apart the walls and installing new wiring. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 839 8-21-91 9:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: all Re: Light 2 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Incandescent vs. Fluorescent Once you have decided to use 120 VAC for your lighting, then the next choice is whether to use incandescent or fluorescent lighting. The situation here is the same as we discussed in the lighting article in Home Power #1. Fluorescent lighting offers you the same light at about the quarter the cost of incandescent devices. This is true even if the higher initial cost of the fluorescent fixture is considered. The primary cost of lighting in alternative energy homes is not the lighting fixtures or the bulbs, but the energy it takes to power the lights. As AE users, we pay many times the cost of utility produced electrical power. It pays us to buy efficient appliances even though they may be initially more expensive to purchase. What really counts is where you put it... Regardless of the type (or voltage) of lighting you choose, the technique for efficient application remains the same. If you want to save on energy used for lighting the first thing to think about is the position and size of the light. Spot lighting, especially in work areas such as kitchens, desks, and work benches, is most effective. Spot lighting focuses the light where it is needed. This allows usage of lower wattage lights while still maintaining acceptable illumination where it is needed. The idea is really quite simple. Consider sitting at a desk and reading a book. We could use a 40 watt incandescent desk lamp at a distance of say 1.5 feet from the book for illumination. Or we could use 440 watts worth of light bulbs on the ceiling, some 5 feet above the desk, to provide the SAME AMOUNT of light on the book. That's over ten times the energy being consumed to provide the same illumination on the book laying on the desk. Light is radiant energy, and as such, obeys the inverse square law of radiation. This means that every time you double your distance from a light source, the intensity of the light is divided by four. So give your AE system a break and use spot lighting wherever possible. Locate all sources of light as close as possible to where they are needed. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 840 8-21-91 9:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Light 3 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It is much more efficient to place several smaller spot lights around a room for illumination than it is to use a single large light source on the ceiling. I like to think of this concept as "The Moving Light". The idea is to have several low intensity (thereby low wattage) light sources around a room wherever they are needed. There are only one or two of these lights burning at a time. Where are they burning? They are burning WHERE YOU ARE. The light follows you around the room because you switch off the light in an area when you move to another. The Moving Light. You save energy by not illuminating areas that don't need light. This idea is a corollary of the ancient American Indian proverb, "White man build big fire stand back; Indian build small fire, sit on top."-- Indian Tom via George F. Wright, Agate Flat OR. In some cases area lighting is desirable. Most area lighting fixtures are designed with shades, valences and other light diffusers/reflectors. These are designed to prevent the relatively intense (high wattage) light from directly striking our eyes. This technique, while interior designer approved, wastes a hell of a lot of energy. If you are using area lighting dispense with valences and diffusers and use lower wattage lighting units. The best place for area lighting is the ceiling in the center of the room. Use area lighting minimally, only as an occasional supplement to spot lighting in areas of interest and activity. If you use area lighting, with its high intensity requirements, install fluorescent types for their high efficiency. So the most important factor in any lighting system, whether 12 VDC or 120 VAC, is the sizing and positioning of the fixtures. Put the light where you need it, keep the wattage down, and turn it off when you don't need it. Do these three things and you'll save energy. Incandescent Light Bulbs & Inverters Incandescent lightbulbs are perfectly happy when powered by inverter produced electricity. These lightbulbs are resistive loads to the inverter, and even the crudest inverter can handle them with ease. When computing the wattage consumed by an incandescent lightbulb powered via inverter be sure to add an additional 10% for the inverter's inefficiency. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 841 8-21-91 9:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Light 4 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The incandescent lightbulb itself is an efficiency engineer's nightmare. Over 90% of the electrical energy we put into the bulb is wasted as heat, with only about 6% being converted to usable light. This very low efficiency means that we should keep the wattage of our incandescent bulbs as low as possible. Experiment with your incandescent bulbs. If you've been using a 75 watt bulb in a lamp, then try a 60 watt or 40 watt bulb. You may find that the lower light intensity is perfectly acceptable. The human eye automatically adjusts itself to the amount of light available. Provide too much light and the eye's pupil contracts and lets less light into the eye. Fluorescent Lights on the Inverter Fluorescent lights are inductive loads to the inverter. This means that their usage with inverters is subject to certain vagaries, or what engineers call "glitches". Inverter manufacturers are attempting to provide a reasonable facsimile of conventional 60 cycle sinusoidal electricity coupled with high inverter efficiency. In fact, all square wave and modified sine wave inverters offer only an approximation of sinusoidal energy. The energy they produce is not IDENTICAL with commercial electricity. How close this approximation is varies very widely from inverter to inverter. Some types will power fluorescent lighting with no problems, while others will not. From personal experiences we have determined that the following three inverter makes will power most standard fluorescent lighting: Trace, Heliotrope and Heart. Depending on the type of fluorescent and inverter used the light may buzz during operation. Well, in fact all fluorescent lights, even those operated on the grid, buzz somewhat. With some inverters this buzz can be loud enough to be annoying. The three inverters mentioned above provide the minimum amount of noise at the light. The best type of fluorescent we have found for quiet inverter operation are the rapid start ballastless types. We also prefer the warm white type of fluorescent tube for its more frequency balanced light. The electronic ballast used in many fluorescent fixtures is designed for sinusoidal power input. It is not designed for the modified sine wave power output of today's super efficient inverters. Standard fluorescent ballasts will run hotter, be less efficient, and shorter lived when used on inverter produced electricity. This is one more reason to use the rapid start ballastless type of fluorescent lamps. They are not only quieter, but also more efficient and longer lived. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 842 8-21-91 9:51pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Light 5 of 5 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Several readers of Home Power have written to us mentioning potential health hazards involved in fluorescent lighting. To date, I have yet to see any hard scientific evidence that supports these claims. While I am not particularly a fan of the light produced by fluorescents (its not balanced in frequency output and hard on my eyes), I use them because they are so efficient at their job. If anyone has any real evidence supporting the claim that fluorescent light is damaging to our health, then please write us. We'll print this information if it is scientifically supported. In summation, the prime reason to use 120 VAC lighting in AE systems is to use already existing wiring and fixtures. Those considering building a new AE home should consider dual lighting systems, both 12 VDC and 120 VAC. This offers maximum efficiency and flexibility. The most efficient form of lighting is spot lighting rather than area lighting, regardless of voltage or lighting type. The most efficient type of commonly available 120 VAC lighting is the fluorescent. So give your system's lighting a second glance and save some energy! Courtesy of and copyrighted by Home Power Magazine Originally published Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 843 8-19-91 5:17pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Electric Tractors Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to All <08-16-91 00:28> Don Kulha wrote: DK> "ELECTRIC TRACTORS - 36 Volt GE ElectTrak Garden My father bought one of those used a while ago. The thing was great, no cold weather starting problems, quiet, etc. We used to use it to pull full lenght trees (8"-10" in diameter) from where we cut them in the outter reaches of his 6 acre plot to the backyard, where we would cut them up with the chainsaw for firewood which he heated his entire house with. The torque of the little tractor was "Great!". He used it for about 3-4 years, at which time the batteries would not hold a charge too long. Instaed of replacing the batteries, he bought a gas powered mower/tractor. What a mistake... He should have replaced the batteries, it would have cost about the same as the 2 yr old Wheel Horse he bought, but would have been a heck of a lot more useful. The batteries provided excellent traction due to the weight, you couldn't match the low-end torque with a gas engine, and it was trouble-free except for the batteries running out of life... but, hey, he bought it a few years old... The mower section had 3 electric motors with about 15" blades each, wow, talk about cut grass... just watch out for those rocks and tree roots... they would cut almost anything! Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 844 8-21-91 9:33pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Turbines Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Recently I posted a message about the Ct Small Power Producers group... My wife ran across a Legal Notice in a local paper here, it seems that the person who heads this organization is about to build another power plant. The notices states: P-11143-000 US FERC Application, Filed 7/12/91, Type of Application: Minor License, Project No: 11143000, Date Filed: May 6, 1991, Applicant: Summit Hydropower, Name of Project: Glen Falls, Location: Moosup River in Windham County, CT. Applicant: Duncan Broatch, Summit Hydropower, 92 Rocky Hill Road, Woodstock, CT 06281 (203)974-1620. Project: An existing 150 foot long and 15 foot high granite masonary gravity flow dam; a 43 acre reservoir at 270.7 feet above sea level. He plans to build: A 70 foot long and 7 foot diameter penstock with an 18.9x23.2 foot powerhouse, with a 250 kW Francis Turbine operating at a 22 cfs 17.5 foot head, with a 35 foot long by 18 feet wide tailrace. He plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output estimate? It seems he has underestimated by about 1/2 the output... I am sending to see if I can get a copy of the documents he submitted, I think it might be interesting. BTW, have you ever heard of a Francis turbine before, and if so, would it be possible to get a listing of places to buy turbines and generators around this size? A friend insisted you could buy a 500kW generator as an Army Surplus truck mounted unit (although I wouldn't need the truck!), any ideas if that "rumor" would be true, or where to find things like that as surplus if they do exist? Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 845 8-22-91 07:28am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Turbines Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 21 Aug 91 21:33:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Don Kulha > Subj: Turbines > > Project: An existing 150 foot long and 15 foot high granite > masonary gravity flow dam; a 43 acre reservoir at 270.7 feet > above sea level. He plans to build: A 70 foot long and 7 > foot diameter penstock with an 18.9x23.2 foot powerhouse, > with a 250 kW Francis Turbine operating at a 22 cfs 17.5 > foot head, with a 35 foot long by 18 feet wide tailrace. He > plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. > > Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output estimate? > It seems he has underestimated by about 1/2 the output... > I am sending to see if I can get a copy of the documents he > submitted, I think it might be interesting. BTW, have you > ever heard of a Francis turbine before, and if so, would it > be possible to get a listing of places to buy turbines and > generators around this size? A friend insisted you could > buy a 500kW generator as an Army Surplus truck mounted unit > (although I wouldn't need the truck!), any ideas if that > "rumor" would be true, or where to find things like that as > surplus if they do exist? > Darn, my trusty HP 15c is in my desk at work but the numbers he gives seems about right. The Hp article lists a francis turbine with 15' of head flowing 130 cfm as producing 37 kWh/day. Thats about one tenth the flow rate of their proposed site. If one could multiply to power produced by the system listed in HP by 10 and derate it some (say 20%) for frictional losses, 300 kWh/day seems reasonable. That's not far from the 800K+ kWh these folks plan to produce. One of my posts (which you probably haven't seen yet) did mention the Francis style turbines and their makers (not sure if any survive today). When you get the HPower article you'll have as much info as I do. A 500 kWh generator would be vastly oversized for something like he is doing and the generator alone would be huge. To produce 300 kWh a day would only require making something like 13 kW per hour. Buying a 10 kWh generator would also be a lot cheaper and they'd be far easier to find..... (I said "only" in reference to making 13 kWH? Shoot, that would only take 250 or so 50 watt PV panels and they'd only make that much power 5 hours a day at best....from $70,000 bucks worth of panels!) BTW, the author of the HPower article is listed as Cameron MacLeod,POB 286, Glenmoore PA 19343 (215)458-8133. He's likely to be able to answer your questions.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 864 8-24-91 1:18pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Danny Burdick To: Don Kulha Re: Chargers 3 of 3 Attr: Local Sent ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hey what's say we get these Home Power Magazine people a point number or some kind of feed so they can see just how HOT! their presence would be here..... Really appreciate all the efforts Don for the echo and you can definitely count my board in on any lists that go out for Energy based BBS systems..... Danny Burdick "Energy" 1:374/17 Compucom 9600 --- * Origin: Energy..Rockledge, Florida (407)690-0032 CC96 (1:374/17) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 865 8-23-91 10:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Tom Keller Re: One more thing.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ was the material called KOVAR? this is an alloy with an expansion rate close to ceramic and Frit glass used to seal ceramic military IC chips. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 958 8-24-91 11:53pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Elementry Solar Projects Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This fall I'll be a 4-H project leader with the charge to teach young kids (9-17) something about solar and alternative energy. 4-H is kinda like a rural coed version of the boyscouts. Most of their groups and projects have to do with agriculture but their are others on subjects like computers, art, cooking, rocketry, etc. Since my wife asked if I'd do it I figured I could spare a few hours each month (and insure domestic tranquility) by leading the group. Likely it will just be a dozen kids or less. Anyway the idea is to teach them about the subject, do some demonstrations and present a group demo of one of our projects at a 4-H show. Now I've gotta figure out what we're going to do.... I'm open to suggestions as to what type of relatively simple projects we might do. The emphasis would be on cheap and educational. The duration of the project is from Sept-June. We'll probably meet for 3 hours a couple times a month and I'd like most projects to be completed in a meeting or two. I'll be doing some preparation for the meetings like scrounging materials, preparing handouts, and preparing the materials. The first couple classes will be a primer on alternative energy with some expedient demonstrations. We'll probably make a field trip or two also. I figure to need about 5 short projects for the group so each of them can build something they can keep. I thought that building solar cookers would be one good project. I thought that another might be for each person to distill water from the ground using a plastic sheet over a hole and while we wait for results look at a working model of a free standing one I'd build. I'd also like to present Hydro (could fake the head with a garden hose), wind and PV's somehow. Your thoughts are appreciated! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 959 8-25-91 03:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: oops Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ getting there!!! Actualy, the ù£L"ýìK¬Ci$iäî×Ú‰(l)¡½L=±6®½Žš-äY­ûDÚµîÄíço¶ÔãHúšÐ0Ô·UM¡\ Actualy the alternator speed could be stepped up byu a belt or gear drive to where it would be turning a decent RPM. Is there a kit available for a wind generator using a car alternator? Mother Earth News used to sell plans for building one but they seem to have gone bell partialy up at any rate. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 960 8-25-91 03:41am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: ALL Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Does anybody know of a maker of a generator that is belt driven off a vehicles engine and produces 110 volt ac? Sears and others used to sell them but I have not found a present source. How about a kit or plans other than from MEN for a wind generator using a car alternator? --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 961 8-25-91 09:18am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Danny Burdick Re: Home Power Mag participation Attr: Net Rcvd ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 24 Aug 91 13:18:00 > From: Danny Burdick > To: Don Kulha > > Hey what's say we get these Home Power Magazine > people a point number or some kind of feed so they can see > just how HOT! their presence would be here..... Richard and Karen (the folks who publish the magazine) are very interested in getting involved online. The caveat Richard mentioned is that since they put a tremendous amount of energy into the mag they won't have too much time to participate. They are excited that Home Power's info is online and especially that it is being distributed without causing the death of additional trees..... The technical difficulty is that they are located six miles (as the crow flies) from the nearest phone line. Currently they use a duplex private radio telephone link (From Carlson Electronics, Redway CA) with a receiver at a friend's home. The radio-phone will support 2400 baud communications but with them using Macs there's a software problem setting them up as a point. We have talked about setting up a full fledged node at Stan's place (the utility end of their phone link) which could work out well since Stan has several computers and is also a contract programmer for Microsoft so he should be able to maintain the node easy enough. Hopefully Stan will agree to this and I'll be able to drive up some weekend and install the software there. If that happens they'll be able to link in via a local phone call and join us online. The next month looks real busy for me but I hope to get up there and have them set-up before the end of October. Then I can set-up to supply them a daily feed from here and we'll be able to benefit from their extensive knowledge. Think they'll enjoy it too! > Really appreciate all the efforts Don for the echo > and you can definitely count my board in on any lists that > go out for Energy based > BBS systems..... You're definitly on the list to be published (should go out in about 6 weeks). As for the efforts, shucks, you're welcome! Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR P.S.-They have been able to see what we're doing though. I brought my laptop to SEER '91 and demoed it for any interested parties. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 962 8-25-91 1:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Joel Kerr Re: One more thing.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yes, Joel, I believe Kovar *WAS* the name I was looking for. Thanks. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 963 8-25-91 1:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Gale Barrows Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ It makes some qualititaive difference what the gender of the person originating the plans for your wind-powered generator is? *WHY*? I think sexism is out of place here. Tom 'Steam is Grand!' Keller, Steam Enthusiast! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 964 8-25-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Theresa Diaz Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Ahmmmm Tom...MEN is Mother Earth News! (I almost fell off my chair laughing! I had read Gale's post and then I came to yours and I had to go back and reread Gale's)....See what happens when we assume common ground...(since neither of US are even a little bit common, this could really get us in trouble)...well...keep up the great work ( I like your steam posts)... Theresa --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 965 8-22-91 7:48pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: One more thing.... Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > One related question.....does anyone know how to > seal a glass cylinder around a metal tube such that the > tube ends protrude from the glass surrounding it? I've Sealing the metal tube to the glass per se shouldn't be a big problem. The bigger hurdle is *keeping* it sealed. Glass and metal have much different coefficients of expansion, meaning that the metal will get longer, faster, than the glass, which will break the seal when the temperature changes. Seems like you'd need a "bellows" arrangement that would have some "give" to allow this differential expansion. Sealing itself should be able to be accomplished with RTV or some other hi-tech sealant, although one might want to have his vacuum tap accessable for re-evacuation periodically. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 966 8-26-91 11:04am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Theresa Diaz Kulha Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ *blush* Oh Me, Oh My! (-: (embarassment abounds!) ~sigh~ My apologies to Gale. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 967 8-26-91 8:18pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Preface - Induction Generators Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The article we're going to post on the echo here appeared in Home Power Mag a while back. I've read it, don't really understand it but some of you might and get benefit. It is presented as somewhat "theoretical" in nature. I'm posting this in the chance it might help some of you wanting AC power for long wire runs.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 968 8-26-91 8:21pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 1 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Induction Generation: an exciting possibility Paul Cunningham Why does it make a difference what type of generator we use to produce power? Let's take a look at the standard types and see what the features are. Two broad categories include most types. Either the output coils can rotate or they can be stationary. Almost all of the older designs used output coils of wire that rotated. These designs used a stationary "field" which provided a magnetic flux for the moving output coils to pass through which in turn generated an electrical flow in the coils. This design is represented by direct current (DC) motors and most older alternating current (AC) generators (alternators). The major disadvantage of this type of machine is that the full output must pass through carbon brushes. Many generators of this type are used in alternative technology applications but they require more maintenance. Also, because of the rotor design, the wire is more difficult to retain at higher speeds as it tries to fly outward from the rotor. It is for these reasons that automotive generators (DC) were replaced by alternators. The other major category of generators include those designs in which the output coils are stationary and the field rotates. This includes automotive alternators. All machines of this type produce alternating current output. If DC output is required, then RECTIFIERS are used to convert AC to DC. These are solid state electrical one way "valves" usually using silicon diodes. Thus far, all of these designs mentioned could use permanent magnets for the field. This means several things. The field requires no electricity to operate, so efficiency is higher. It can operate at very low speeds since the power of the field is not taken from the output of the machine. On the negative side, there is no easy way to control the output of such a machine. With a wire wound field the output can easily be varied by alternating field current. A rheostat is a simple way to do this, and in this way output is easily optimized. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 969 8-26-91 8:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 2 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ EXCITATION IS WHAT AN INDUCTION GENERATOR IS ABOUT You can use most motors as generators to produce electric power. A standard induction motor can also be used this way. These motors consist of stationary coils of wire that carry the current to operate them wound through slots in steel laminations. The rotor consists of steel laminations with aluminum conductors (usually) cast into slots in the steel. These are called squirrel cage rotors. When alternating current is applied to the stator coils, a rapidly changing magnetic field is produced. Once such a machine is running, there is always a speed difference between the rotor and changing field in the stationary coils. This difference is called "slip". This difference in speed INDUCES an electric current an electric current in the rotor and as a result a magnetic field. It is this field in the rotor that now causes it to "follow" the direction of the field in the stator. For quite some time it has been recognized that if shaft power were applied to an induction motor already running, it would operate as a generator and push electricity back into the source used to operate it. For this to occur, our motor must now be running slightly faster than the "synchronous" speed instead of slightly slower. This technique is widely used on a large scale in commercial power generation systems. The electrical power already present provides the necessary "excitation" to correctly operate the machine. In this context, the system is fail safe.... if the grid power fails, generator output ceases also. How is all of this going to help us with our stand alone remote system? There is the possibility of using a standard electric motor to efficiently generate electricity. One technique is to generate an "exciting" current for the motor/generator to "follow". Induction seduction, sort of. I have not been successful with this. Anyone who has should contact me with their findings. What DOES work with excellent results is to simply apply capacitance in parallel with the output lines. I ignored this tantalizing possibility until I met Bill Thomson and Fred Howe (of Thomson and Howe, Kimberly, B.C., makers of electronic controllers for hydro systems) at a small hydro conference in March '87. It was their encouragement and information that enabled me to progress. The simplicity, low cost, and high efficiency of such a system were all self evident, once work was begun in this direction. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 970 8-26-91 8:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 3 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In the first issue of Home Power, I wrote about the conversion of a standard three phase induction motor to a permanent magnet alternator. With my new information, I removed the P.M. rotor and replaced it with the original. Then I added the 15 microfarad capacitors across each line (parallel). When the machine was started again, I found that not only did it start generating by itself (yes, "self excitation" an interesting term for a dry subject) but the output was identical to the P.M. rotor machine. This was a revelation to me.... how easily it could be done. It should be instructive to note what makes up a complete battery charging system. The water driven turbine in turn drives a 1/3 H.P. three phase 230 VAC motor that has the three capacitors connected across the output lines. In this case power is generated at 120 VAC and can thus be transmitted very long distances with minimal losses. Then at the point of use three transformers step the 120 volts down to battery voltage and with a bridge rectifier, produce direct current. It looks like this: INSERT ILLUSTRATION You are probably wondering how induction generation works and why it isn't more widely used. In a stand alone system, the key to operation is the presence of capacitance. This gives electricity somewhere to "go" without the capacitors acting as a load. Thus enabling current to flow in the motor and get it all excited. Most motors I have tested as generators will start producing power on their own with the use of capacitors. This is due to the small residual magnetism in the rotor. It is also necessary that the generator not "see" a load until it is up to proper voltage. If a load is present at the start, the voltage will be unable to rise at all. In a battery charging system this is more or less inherently provided for, as the generator only "sees" transformers as a small load until proper voltage is reached. Induction generation is more limited than a P.M. alternator in the type of situation in which it can be used. The induction machine should be operated at or near its rated speed. This can be as low as 800 rpm depending on the motor specs. A P.M. machine can be operated at very low speeds and still work well. However, if a site can use an induction generator, then it can be implemented at low cost since the motors are not expensive and the capacitors are only a few dollars each. Motors are also available in different speed ranges. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 971 8-26-91 8:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Generator 4 of 4 Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ You might wonder why I am using three phase systems when a single phase one might do. It is possible to use single phase motors for this. However, they require more capacitance, operate at lower efficiency, and are not easily excited. Three phase alternating current is also more efficiently converted to DC for battery systems. For those of you wishing to experiment, some further information may prove useful. The size of capacitor will largely control output voltage. Smaller capacitors are needed as voltage rises. Use only AC motor run capacitors. Not all electric motors are created equal and may produce results differing from what I found. Also keep in mind that if the system is to operate at a fairly fixed speed (like most hydro systems) that no adjustments are required from minimum to maximum output. As a starting point, a 1/3 HP 3 phase 230 VAC 4 pole (1800 rpm nominal) Westinghouse motor needs 15 µf. per line to generate 120 VAC at 1500 rpm. A 1 1/2 HP Leeson 3 phase 230 VAC 4 pole motor requires 40 µf. per line at 1500 rpm, 230 VAC. If any readers have trouble getting things to excite, the most effective technique is to apply 12 VDC to one phase (two output wires) of the motor while stopped. After a few minutes remove the DC and try starting again. This "imprints" the rotor with magnetic poles and should get things going. Try no load at first just to see if it works. There are some further points of interest that will probably be discussed in a future update. Presently there is still much work to be done before a more complete understanding is possible. Readers are encouraged to both try experiments and report their results. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Issue #3, Published April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 972 8-26-91 11:30pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Leeson To: SYSOP Re: DIAGRAMS Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ HI Don, I am just starting to get into solar, wind, and what ever else I can find for good sub. power. We have 20 arces in lake county and PG&E called and asked if we wanted power-anyway to make a long story short they said after all was said and done "WE CAN MAKE MORE FROM THE PEOPLE TO THE NORTH OF YOU THAN WE{PG&E} CAN FROM 'ALL' THE PEOPLE TO THE SOUTH IN THIS VALLEY". Anyway back to why I started this message-- in your message about generators{??} you put "insert illastration"{spll?}, I know that you have put some of the diagrams in files, instead of 'insert ill.' why not "insert 'filename of diagram'" in your messages??? It would clear up alot of things, people could download that file and insert in the right spot. thanks Don, will get back to you soon. JIM --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 973 8-26-91 08:15am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Gale Barrows Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Does anybody know of a maker of a generator that is belt > driven off a vehicles engine and produces 110 volt ac? i recently saw an ad for a 110 volt inverter system for a vehicle, which was designed to allow laptop computer users to run a printer or some other peripheral while on the road. (the laptop runs off of 12v directly) the device was limited to about 150 watts, i think, and cost about $150. how much power do you need, and what price range are you looking for? michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 974 8-26-91 9:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kulha Re: Elementry Solar Projects Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ How bout a simple PV system based on a 12v automotive battery and one of those plug into the cig lighter battery chargers. May be a small lighting system for camping. Just a thought............ Lots a luck with your project and keep us posted! Dennis --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 975 8-26-91 9:56pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Dennis Garringer To: Gale Barrows Re: Genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JC Whittney used to carry an inverter that would run a coffee pot or a tv off of a automotive alternatorÿ. Any magazine rack should have a Whittney catalog in their auto section. --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 976 8-27-91 9:12pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Brittle Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-19-91 07:00> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > I think we should go to more localized power, in the DK> Amory Lovins wrote a book a few years back called DK> "Brittle Power" which talked about some of the problems Thanks for the info, will see if they have it. DK> importance in other less affluent parts of the world. Yep, I quite agree with this... It is too bad so much money is spent on other things, and not enough into Home Power and alternative energy development as far as research goes these days. Thanks again, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 977 8-27-91 9:16pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-19-91 18:01> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > Thanks for the assistance. I am sure this might be an DK> > easier way to do it, by stacking, but, I wonder about DK> building them. You'll have to check. Even so, it may be far DK> cheaper to build your own. We're not talking exotic or high DK> technology here......DCK Have you ever run across any good literature on building your own turbine at home? My father (the P&W aircraft engineer) insists it would be too dificult to build an efficient one at home without buying a complete machine shop... Some of the Banki, Pelton and other turbines do not look too complicated, but offer better efficiency than wheels. Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 978 8-27-91 9:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Turbines Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-22-91 07:28> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. If one multiplies 250kW x 8600 hours... there seems to be a little discrepency here... maybe I am all wet, but it seems to me that figure of 839,000 is off by about about 60 percent... thats what I was questioning. DK> BTW, the author of the HPower article is listed as DK> Cameron MacLeod, POB 286, Glenmoore PA 19343 (215)458-8133. DK> He's likely to be able to answer your questions.....DCK Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 979 8-26-91 09:55am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: oops Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don't know much about that..the step up is quite a bit? wind pushing 100RPM and generater needing 1800RPM? That's quite a bit... --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 980 8-28-91 7:13pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 27 Aug 91 21:16:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Don Kulha > > Have you ever run across any good literature on building > your own turbine at home? My father (the P&W aircraft > engineer) insists it would be too dificult to build an > efficient one at home without buying a complete machine > shop... Some of the Banki, Pelton and other turbines do not > look too complicated, but offer better efficiency than > wheels. > Good literature....no. But my research into turbines is less than exhaustive. Most of the turbines I've seen info on are the horizontal multistage types, clearly way to elaborate and fragile to fabricate. In MacLeod's article the francis types look like to tube with a shaft in the middle which is driven by the wieght of water down past a screw like the one found on post hole diggers. Over the tube would be a stand that supports a generator of some sort, probably belt driven to step up the speed. There are, no doubt, different efficencies based on things like screw design, angles, clearances, bend radii in plumbing but that seems straight forward enough to deal with. Thrust loads on the turbine shaft could be fierce so that would warrant special attention. As for the turbine itself something as simple as multiple props for small marine applications mounted on a shaft should work at least fairly well, since we're dealing with the same working fluid here. Screws of the type used on post hole diggers, in material handling equipment and various food processing equipment might work (and in the case of the later example would probably be stainless steel). It's not a simple project but it should be doable. So how to procede? Well, I think working models are in order after your research starts winding down. You can learn what works and make mistakes at a minimal cost (and maybe even convince any skeptics that it's practical). One of the nice things about doing it this way might be the ability to control the variables in testing. If you were to experiment with microscale stuff first you could use an elevated drum as a water supply. One of the first tests we had planned for the turbine I'm working on is the ultra scientific garden hose supply test. If it actually works with anything like reasonable efficency you folks will be the first to know. The first model will use something like a 4" diameter, small enough to be easily made. To test the concept I tried several things to convince me to go further..... DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 981 8-28-91 10:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Tom Keller Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ OOPS !!! Maybe it would be clearer had I used the periods as in M.E.N. rather then typeing MEN. There was no gender specification intended !!! I meant to refer to that grand old magazine of yesteryear, "Mother Earth News". But then, maybe that is a "genderic" name. Perhaps it should have been called "Parent Earth News". Sorry about causing any misunderstanding. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 982 8-28-91 10:31pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Michael Favor Re: genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am looking for a true generator or alternator belt driven from the vehicle engine. I would like to find something around 110/120 volts and putting out 1kw or more, preferably about 4-5 kw. Invertors just don't provide enough power without spending mucho bucks. These generators used to be quite common before invertors got thick. Wards and Sears both used to have them but no more. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 983 8-28-91 10:35pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Dennis Garringer Re: Genertor Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Invertors won't do the job unless a lot of cash is layed out. I am looking for a true generator or alternator. They used to be common and were very similar to the unit now bolted to motors on portable generator sets. Actualy, one of these could be easily adapted. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 984 8-29-91 12:41am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Philip Malkin To: Don Kulha Re: Hydrogen Car Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Don. I've an infrequent visitor to this board, but I did notice that you mentioned a hydrogen car back when you were reviewing the SEER '91 conf. I'd like to know more about this. I have a little info on this type of enegry source (water), but would like to know if there are any article about that I can get hold of. Thanks --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 985 8-29-91 12:52am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Nissan Announcement Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Nissan announced Monday that they have developed a prototype vehicle which can be completely recharged in 15 minutes. The nickle-cadmium battery pack will also take a 40% charge in 6 minutes from the special high power charger. Performance is claimed to be a top speed of 81 mph, 100 mile range at 45 mph or 70 miles at 60 mph. Acceleration is said to be about average for a subcompact car. It sounds like they're getting serious here folks! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 986 8-29-91 1:31pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: oops Attr: Net ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Yeah, the things I7ve read say the same thing...step it up with a belt drive or (better) a belt drive that has those rubber teeth because the transfer efficiency is better..but that takes a semi-cogged wheel. Well, because it has to be stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually done. I don't know of any kits sold commercially. Get a shaft and put a large pully on one end and a small one on the other. Mount the shaft in bearings and attach belts..??? You got me because its is easy to read and is it easy to build? I don't know! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1115 9-01-91 10:05am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Friends.....In way of an update I wanted to let you know that HOMEPOWR is now available from David James who graciously agreed to carry it at the western star (the pacific end of our echo-distribution national backbone network). It may make it a lot easier for folks in southern CA and the Northwest to get, plus it's perfect timing since we hope to get confirmation to put HOMEPOWR on the full backbone momentarily. We are getting there folks! I've been a bit quiet here for the past few days. Have had a ton of work to do getting things ready for a project at the lab, getting a couple computers built for customers, clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some t-shirts and doing some research on a tracking concentrating solar-thermal array I'll be building shortly. I also received the information I've been awaiting anxiously on Tesla's boundary layer turbine which also distracted me (with this in hand we should have a working prototype before the end of September). Today I'm off to an air show (primarily to meet some local steam power enthusiasts who always have a demo there) and tonight it's off to Calistoga to watch the "Outlaws" at a sprint car race (yeah, they do burn energy but at least they get it from alcohol!). The fun never stops around Camp Chaos....We'll get the Hydrogen car info someone reminded me of and another article or two entered tomorrow....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1116 9-01-91 11:27pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Terry Olsen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1117 9-01-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: army surplus Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Actualy, Army or other government surplus generators are fairly common. There are several equipment dealers who regularly deal in equipment of this type. Although 500kw would be a *big* unit, they do exist. Most commonly they are seen at carnivals where they are used to power the Feris wheels and other rides as well as concession stands. I recently goofed and passed up bidding on a 35kw generator at a surplus auction. The thing was in quite good condition and worked well the selling price was $350, considerably les than the price of a 4kw at K-Mart !!! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1118 9-02-91 12:41am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 01 Sep 91 23:27:33 > From: Gale Barrows > To: Terry Olsen > gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having > trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades > themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a > governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. > Most of the small (1KW) wind power generators I've seen are designed such that the whole prop/alternator/tail-vane assembly tilt back in high wind to avoid overspeeding. Makes good sense; the prop being perpendicular to the force of wind is most efficient. If you tilt it back the prop presents less frontal area to the wind hence there's power transfered to it. It would be a simple homebrew wind system feature to make (after you find the right springs - better too light than the inverse) with the plus that by pulling on an attached rope you could lock it back when expecting a big blow. DCK P.S.-As for making blades that looks like quite a chore. I can add that I see the leading edges on most have a metal sheath, they are almost always wood, they are very carefully balanced (they assume you don't want to change bearings one a month) and use some form of epoxy sealer/paint on the blades which are white to avoid soaking up thermal solar energy which would weaken them quicker. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1119 8-30-91 9:47pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Elementry Solar Projects Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ jeeeeeez don u picked a good area!!! seeif ucan find a copy in a used book store of farrington daniels "direct use of the sun's energy" has solars stills and power projects orig written in 1964 mine is a paperback copy from '74 solar cookers POPULAR SCIENCE had a good one from georgia institiute of technology was a spiral freshnel concentrator type affair some versions were v v v inexpensive if i remember but v v efficient if i can find u wnat the info? Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1120 8-30-91 9:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Gale Barrows Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TMEN is back with issue 127 sept 1991 they got overleveraged (yuppie disease) and sold out. editorial offices in PO Box 129 Arden, NC 28704 the plans for 2 wind gens are offered from MOTHER EARTH NEWS PLANS PO Box 10941 DesMoines, IA 50340 Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1121 8-30-91 10:07pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Generator 4 of 4 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ZZZZZZZOOOOWWWIIEEEEE!!!!! we are hot tonight!!! TMEN issue#78 nov dec "82 ( thank god i am a packrat ) has an article on a micro hydro sight using "grid excitation" of an induction motor running at speed + SLIP speeed to produce power. No further references in later issues was a study done by Blue Ridge Group Sierra Club and Appalachian State University hdqtred in Boone North Carolina. wonder if still have records of study...... would love to see schematics...... Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1122 8-30-91 09:42am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Gale Barrows Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I meant to refer to > that grand old magazine of yesteryear, "Mother Earth > News". Whatever happened to MEN? My wife and I started reading it soon after it started publication, bought all the back issues, even signed up for "life membership". Soon after that, it ceased arriving, and I don't even remember seeing a notice that it was going defunct (or whatever it did). There were some really good articles in the earlier issues on alternate energy including methane generators, wood/gas conversion, various kinds of heating systems, solar and water-power setups, etc. It went in a direction of less interest to me, then disappeared. Good stuff while it lasted, though. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1123 9-02-91 09:08am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jim Dunmyer Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 30 Aug 91 09:42:51 > From: Jim Dunmyer > To: Gale Barrows > > Whatever happened to MEN? My wife and I started reading it > soon after it started publication, bought all the back > issues, even signed up for "life membership". Soon after > that, it ceased arriving, and I don't even remember seeing a > notice that it was going defunct (or whatever it did). There > were some really good articles in the earlier issues on > alternate energy including methane generators, wood/gas > conversion, various kinds of heating systems, solar and > water-power setups, etc. It went in a direction of less > interest to me, then disappeared. Good stuff while it > lasted, though. > I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us using this echo were either strongly influenced by TMEN or were at least avid readers. I mourned the loss of the "old" TMEN when the "Rodale-ization" and "Yupification" took hold. I heard that it was no longer being published and then, a few days ago, saw it on the newsstand again. I recently became aware (I'm a little slow at times...) of a new magazine called "Backwoods Home" published by some of the original TMEN folks. It feels a lot more like the original TMEN than the slick new incarnation bearing that name. Some excellent articles and info were in the issue I picked up too. To quote their advert: Published every two months, we're a 100 page "packed" how-to resource. Articles include: locating country property, building a home, making a living, alternative energy, gardening, food storage, raising animals, wildlife, homeschooling, natural health tips, emergency preparedness, country crafts and profiles of people who made sucessful transitions from the rat-race to the country. Recipes, product reviews, magazine and book reviews in every issue. The magazine for people that value their independance. Subscriptions: $17.95/yr ($25 Canadian) Address: Backwoods Home, POB 2630, Ventura CA 93002 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1124 9-02-91 09:37am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Elementry Solar Projects Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for the ideas Joel. I'm going to *try* to keep the 4-H projects for the kids as simple and inexpensive as possible, making everything from easily and locally available "stuff". I need a couple projects the kids (ages 10-17) can build to take home and a couple we'll work on as a team. So far I plan for us to make some reflecting solar cookers, a wind powered generator (using a bicycle lighting generator), a water powered generator (either pelton or francis type) using a garden hose for demo purposes, a Photovoltaic array from individual cells, and a solar thermal hot-air collector. Most of the stuff will be small-scale working models of the real thing. We also will be discussing efficency, conservation and basic electrical theory. I hope to be able to take them on a couple short field trips in the area to look at a solar powered home, ride in an electric car and visit Real Goods solar powered showroom. This ought to be fun and educational for both the kids and myself (I still haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up....)(grin) DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1125 9-02-91 10:10am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: aLL Re: Hydrogen Car Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The hydrogen producing/powered car at SEER '91 in Willits last month was based on a new design by Dr. Roger Billings, president of the American Academy of Science. It is based on a hydrogen fuel cell which transforms Hydrogen and air into electricity with a byproduct of water vapor. There is no air pollution, moving parts or noise and it doesn't wear out. The electricity drives a motor and hence the car down the road. In a normal gas powered car less than 25% of the latent energy in the fuel moves the vehicle-the rest goes out the tailpipe. Basically electricity from some source is used to power an electrolyzer which seperates water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen is released and the hydrogen is stored in safe powdered metal hydride form. Hydride is a powdered metal which absorbs hydrogen much like a sponge stores water. The hydrogen is drawn from the hydride as needed and fed to the fuel cell where in combination with oxygen from the air it generates electricity to run the vehicle at about 60% efficency. The prototype I saw, called "LaserCel 1" was very impressive from a engineering standpoint and was beautifully done. Whoever built it really did a tremendous job; it was one of the nicest fabrication jobs I've ever seen. I wish I had more info for you (or an address to write to) but if you can dig up the address for the AAS and write Dr. Billings I'm sure you'll get the info you want. Electrolyzers are on the market now (and not that expensive either) as are the fuel cells (which I think are). I hope to learn more about this technology and will pass it on when I do.......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1126 9-02-91 1:12pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GB>Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an GB>alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of GB>arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, GB>gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having GB>trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades GB>themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a GB>governor is used, would be the hard part to design and build. That's my understanding too. This is probably nothing you don't know already. My references are public books, nothing esoteric. It sounds to me as if you are looking toward a horizontal axis machine, 3-5 blades for low solidity and higher shaft speed. Is that right? If so what you have stated may be the main design consideration. The strength and shape of the blades is critical for efficiency and one certainly doesn't want to lose a blade...into who knows what in higher winds!? Is this what you mean? After A LOT of reading I thought why not make a bigger less efficient machine? Why not use sailcloth as the main blade constituant? The University of Princeton did some work on sailcloth as a blade material and has or had a kit for sale using sailcloth. It sounded good, less efficient but safer. The sailcloth streches in higher winds, dumping much of the wind energy. This isn't saying one shouldn't include a governer. There is the shot at it that properly designed and implemented, the escess wind would dump, so the governer is integral to the blade design. I like this idea! A stiff rod is used for the leading edge, pipe or TV antenna mast, or conduit. The trialing edge is cable and the blade is covered with sailcloth. There was a guy who built such a machine and in the stiffest storms, with frozen blades, it didn't overrev. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1127 9-03-91 09:41am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Bianchi To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gale. Re: obtaining proper prop blades and hubs, mayhaps inquiries around a civil aviation airport might turn up a source of used aircraft props. Seems to me that, esp with a variable pitch arrrangement, these would be ideal, if the price was right. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1128 9-03-91 9:40pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Tom Keller Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > 50 lbs. of plutonium, should the spacecraft burn > up in the atmosphere, would (not *COULD*, not *MIGHT*, but > ***WOULD***!) significantly contaminate an incredibly large > geographical area with radioactive, toxic plutonium oxides in > a very finely divided particulate form. Carl Sagan wrote about this in USA Today. He said that there was a chance in one hundred million that the thing would leak ANY plutonium at all. Are you aware how much radioactive material was released during Nagasaki and Hiroshima? > The safety record of the space program is not anywhere > **NEAR** good enough to cause any rationaly being to assume > that such an accident is unlikely. Such an accident is very unlikely. Galileo had more armor than plutonium. The danger of mishap was lower than the danger of an accident in a car or a plane. > To denigrate concerned individuals for expressing > perfectly reasonable concerns is fascistic, irresponsible and > highly inflammatory. However, if those concerns are not reasonable, then the rest of the statement doesn't apply. > There is room for disagreement on these issues, but it is > unneccessary and counter-productive to reduce the disagreement > to the personal, ad hominem level. "Irresponsible" and "fascistic" are very personal. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1129 9-03-91 9:42pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > BC>Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right > BC>away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping > BC>solar energy into a battery. We need both technologies, > BC>nuclear and solar, not one-or-the-other. > BC> * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - > Is it Columbus Ohio? Nice! Yeah, it is. We're the only Columbus that you can just say "Columbus" and people know what you mean, I've found. Beautiful town. > And I surely agree..both technologies (and more) are needed! > What gave you the idea I was against one or the other? > Was it something I wrote here? Maybe it was a response I made > toward nuclear being useful....as opposed to all of use using > nothing but solar energy via roof panels? I can't remember, Terry. I think it was the space shuttle argument. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1130 9-03-91 9:45pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Scott Parks Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ AREA:HOMEPOWR >>Nuclear energy is useful when we need lots of energy right >>away, and we haven't spend the past 10,000 years dripping solar >>energy into a battery. We need both technologies, nuclear and >>solar, not one-or-the-other. > I would say, rather than "have to" use both .... we should > re-evaluate our priorities and lessen our needs. > You may say ... "a long way off" .... I say soon! Why should we lessen our needs? We have all the plentiful power we need. Some of our sources are not renewable, but I think we should put more energy into developing better energy. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) SEEN-BY: 1/211 125/7 8 10 12 180 2553 132/123 151/1000 226/70 330 SEEN-BY: 226/430 282/95 327/999 374/17 8004/0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1131 9-03-91 9:56pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Rich Jensen Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > He plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. > Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output estimate? > It seems he has underestimated by about 1/2 the output... You mean he should have said 1,600,000 kW, or sixteen hundred megawatts? Isn't that a rather high power estimate? Or do you mean 1,600 kW, or 1.6 megawatts? >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1132 9-03-91 9:03pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <08-28-91 19:13> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > Have you ever run across any good literature on building DK> > your own turbine at home? DK> elevated drum as a water supply. One of the first tests we DK> had planned for the turbine I'm working on is the ultra DK> scientific garden hose supply test. If it actually works What kind of a turbine are you building... a Tesla? I have been watching some of the posts about that one, it seems fairly simple and straight forward. BTW, would you know the effiency of a Tesla turbine? (I realize that may depend upon who builds it... but, in general). And, would a Tesla turbine work with a low head hydro type setup, or does it only begin to become efficient at very high input pressures/volumes? The simplicity of the components is a real plus! Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1133 9-03-91 1:42pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > solar-thermal array I'll be building shortly. I also received > the information I've been awaiting anxiously on Tesla's > boundary layer turbine which also distracted me (with > this in hand we should have a working prototype before > the end of September). don, i am extremely interested in any references you can provide on the telsa turbine. i don't remember exactly which post, but something you said made me think you have ready access to a university engineering dept. complete with friendly engineering-type people and high-tech equipment: is that correct? once you fashion a working proto-type, does the information you just got seem to indicate the i might be able to have a copy of the prototype made by a local machine shop, or do you have any suggestions about how i might obtain one? of course, i am also interested in your tracking solar concentrator design, but that seems like the simpler part of the puzzle, and i already have some pretty useful information about one design, which i would be happy to share. thanks for your inspiration so far. warmly, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1134 9-04-91 07:33am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 03 Sep 91 21:03:00 > From: Rich Jensen > To: Don Kulha > > What kind of a turbine are you building... a Tesla? > I have been watching some of the posts about that one, it > seems fairly simple and straight forward. BTW, would you > know the effiency of a Tesla turbine? (I realize that may > depend upon who builds it... but, in general). > And, would a Tesla turbine work with a low head hydro type > setup, or does it only begin to become efficient at very > high input pressures/volumes? The simplicity of the > components is a real plus! > Yes....it is based on the Tesla design. The efficency is an unknown though many folks claim them to be the most efficient turbines. The only numbers I could quote relate their efficency as about 60% with steam and claimed this was 50% higher than the turbines usually used with this medium. The "data" is highly suspect. I don't know if it will work with low heat/ low pressure/ high-volume water flow but should have some idea in a month or so. We'll have to measure the output power and then measure the input flow rate and pressure (from our garden hose) to try and get an idea of it's efficency. My real interest is in steam/power production via solar energy as regards this....We'll just have to see....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1135 9-04-91 07:48am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 03 Sep 91 13:42:51 > From: Michael Favor > To: Don Kulha > > don, i am extremely interested in any references you can > provide on the telsa turbine. i don't remember exactly > which post, but something you said made me think you have > ready access to a university engineering dept. complete with > friendly engineering-type people and high-tech equipment: is > that correct? once you fashion a working proto-type, does > the information you just got seem to indicate the i might be > able to have a copy of the prototype made by a local machine > shop, or do you have any suggestions about how i might > obtain one? > Close....I work for a firm that has lots of engineering talent, several machine shops, and extensive research facilities. It is an unoffical project so we have to do the work on our own time. Perhaps after/if it can be demostrated that the concept (solar thermal generated steam fed turbine) some corporate support *might* be in the offing. Our company's specialty is the application of thin-film coatings. I will make the blueprints available to any interested partys if it isn't a total flop. As far as availability of the turbine goes I'm sure a machine shop local to you could fabricate one. Many of the optimum design criteria are unknowns at this point but we're trying to figure it out. We decided to just barge ahead and build a working model so we could play with different configurations to try and determine how to optimize the design. I'm not getting too many people involved at the lab for a number of reasons...partially in case we fail miserably (called "damage control"...grin). > of course, i am also interested in your tracking solar > concentrator design, but that seems like the simpler part of > the puzzle, and i already have some pretty useful > information about one design, which i would be happy to > share. thanks for your inspiration so far. > Actually I'm sweating the collector/steam-generation design more than the turbine. Would appreciate any input you would care to share. Since a lot of this is theoretical and the viability hasn't been proven (though the simple numbers on paper are promising) I want to limit this discussion as regards this echo for a bit. Well, it's not that I *want* to but it seems prudent. If you want to photocopy any of the info to send this way my mailing address is: Don Kulha, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407 P.S.-...And if this works you can be assured of an invite to see a semi-public demo of the power system along with other interested parties. Relatively speaking you're fairly close by.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1136 9-04-91 10:40am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Kindly tell the family and friends of the crew of the CHallenger that such an accident is highly unlikely. Kindly tell the family and friends of the Apollo crew that was burnt alive that such an accident was highly unlikely. The fact is that due to cost-cutting measures and political haymaking, the safety of our space program is woefully bad, and such accidents are *MUCH* more likely than the theoretical calculations would suggest. Given the number of space missions launched, and the number of fatal accidents already on the books, would you care to re-calculate the odds based on pragmatic experience, rather than over optomistic theories? You are quite right, "fascistic" *IS* highly personal. Since you felt it necessary to denigrate realistic, concerned individuals for expressing honest, reasonable (based on FACTS, not THEORIES) concerns, I felt no compunction about pointing out to you how offensive you were being. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1137 9-04-91 10:45am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Rich Jensen Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, or someone else who actually has the books on the Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based requires that the pressurized medium be expanding. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1138 9-04-91 10:47am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Michael, Actually, Don has access to friendly, helpful engineering types at his place of employment, Optical Coating Labs, Inc. Probably a more diverse and better qualified source of engineering talent for this sort of endeavour in any case. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1139 9-04-91 6:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Don, or someone else who actually has the books on the > Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more > accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will > work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, > the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based requires > that the pressurized medium be expanding. > Tesla felt that the turbine should work well with any fluid; air, steam, water, oil. He also patented it as a pump. The folks in San Bernadino who manufacture pumps of this design have had fantastic success with them as pumps. I don't know how well it will work as a water turbine but if they make great pumps (...rumored but to be seen...) they might make a good water turbine too. We'll let you know when we test it.....DCK P.S.-For making power with it Tom's right....nothing would beat steam. They are claimed to be great geothermal generators.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1140 9-05-91 7:07pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Greg Hassen To: all Re: theftproof pv mounts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ does anybody know if there is a theftproof photovoltaic mounts or tracker. I have a cabin in a area where theft is a constant problem Other than putting them on top of a 50' telephone pole I haven't any ideas. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1141 9-05-91 10:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Greg Hassen Re: theftproof pv mounts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Great question....I have seen some sort of unique fastener systems offered to do that but the source escapes me now....I think they were called "security fasteners". Unfortunatly, dependant on just how remote your cabin is, a persistant thief could probably steal anything even if it meant sawing out a section of your roof if they were mounted to that. I don't mean to discourage you. There must be an answer and I'm sure it's out there. One other consideration I almost hate to mention but must is that if the slime ball realizes they are not going to be sucessful they often destroy things. I've had that happen several times. Some variation on your pole idea might be the hot set-up. What we need here is for Siemens or Texas Instruments or someone to make some photovoltaic roof tiles. I've been thinking about the same question for a while. I haven't been able to buy some rural property yet but will face the same dilema. My thinking has gravitated towards a concrete and rebar "block house" of sorts, with a sturdy metal door, single faceted south sloping roof and steel shutters to cover the PV's when we're absent. It could hold and protect your batterys, inverter, generator, etc., and have a small "maintaner" (10W) sized panel on top just to keep the batterys topped up. With a small panel and a set of hydrocaps it should be able to a long time between battery waterings. It's really a shame we have to deal with the slezoid factor in planning our systems but from what I hear PV's are becoming a favorite target for theives. Perhaps the folks at Zomeworks or other companys that make PV trackers and mounts will have some ideas for you. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1142 9-05-91 10:37pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: AE Careers 1 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Careers in Photovoltaics Start with Training by the Solar Program Staff of Colorado Mountain College Job placement in the solar energy field, particularly in photovoltaics, has become more like "job selection" for graduates of the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program. In fact this year, the 1987-88 school year, there are more job opportunities than students. CMC Solar Program graduates have the luxury of "selecting" which solar option to pursue. And work in the photovoltaics field is leading the charge. One CMC Solar graduate recently was hired as an assistant manager in a national photovoltaic company's regional office in Denver. Three other CMC Solar graduates were hired by diversified New England solar companies that are designing, installing and selling PV systems. Other CMC graduates have started their own PV businesses, including catalog sales. This job success trend in photovoltaics supports the national reputation for excellence, earned by the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program. Numerous national and international publications consistently rate the CMC Solar Program and the photovoltaics division as one of the best in the nation. Since 1981 the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program has offered a unique combination of photovoltaics skills training. The strength of the program lies in combining classroom design experience, hands on installation and on going maintenance and troubleshooting. Full time team instructors Steve McCarney, Ken Olson and Johnny Weiss have developed the PV course and co-authored a concise training manual, "Photovoltaics-- A Manual of Design and Installation for Practitioners." Facilities at the Colorado Mountain College Spring Valley Campus, located eight miles south of Glenwood Springs, Colorado, exhibit both solar heating systems and 10 working PV systems. Short and long term PV courses are offered throughout the year. Customized training also is available on request. The CMC instructors are certified state vocational educators with varied backgrounds including contracting, architecture, engineering, and adult education. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1143 9-05-91 10:37pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: AE Careers 2 of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ More than 300 individuals have completed the Colorado Mountain College photovoltaics training courses. Ten design/installation courses consisting of 80 hours of training have been completed in Colorado and Alaska. As part of course work, more than 40 stand alone PV systems have been installed including generator hybrids, refrigeration, lighting, pumping and home power. Many of these installations have been in remote areas typical of today's stand alone PV market. In some cases travel to these sites has included dogsleds, snow machines, skis, llamas, backpacks and 4WD vehicles. In addition, day long workshops by the Colorado Mountain College instructors have been well received at the Renewable Energy Technologies Symposium and International Exposition (RETSIE) and the annual meeting of the American Solar Energy Society (ASES). Trainees in the Colorado Mountain College program have included licensed electricians, solar technicians, energy efficiency professionals, PV industry trainers and researchers. Groups and organizations sponsoring CMC trainees include the PV industry, Peace Corps, Department of Defense, World Health Organization, Agency for International Development, state and local governments, university and national solar energy laboratories. The Colorado Mountain College staff has worked with trainees from Canada, Mexico, Guatemala, Columbia, Argentina, Great Britain, Switzerland, Qatar, the Phillipines, Tanzania, Australia and, of course, the United States. In addition the CMC instructors have authored numerous technical papers published by the International Solar Energy Society and the American Solar Energy Society. Magazine articles on the CMC Solar program have appeared in PV International, Solar Age, Energy Report, Mother Earth News and Energy Talk. To supplement the regular school year Solar Program, Colorado Mountain College also will be offering a special two week photovoltaic training class in the summer of 1988. For Additional information on the Colorado Mountain College Solar Program and photovoltaics training, contact the CMC Solar staff at 303-945-7481, or write them at 3000 County Road 114, Glenwood Springs, CO 81601. Editor's Note: I was part of a PV seminar with Steve McCarney and Johnny Weiss at the 1987 American Solar Energy Society's annual meeting in Portland, Oregon. They have comprehensive knowledge and experience in PVs, and more importantly they can TEACH. If you are considering solar as a career the CMC is one of the best places to start. --Rich. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine Original publication Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1144 9-05-91 10:41pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 1 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Fireside by Don & Glenda Hargrove A simple but effective test that will save you BTUs! Last issue I discussed various definitions of heat and the ways it moves around us. Heat can be moved, stored, contained, or wasted without us realizing what is happening. A case in point is the propane fired water heater. I have one, and many are in use in AE households. Do you know the BTU rating of this most important appliance? Do you know whether it actually delivers the amount of heat it is supposed to? How many of those precious BTUs are being lost through your vent pipe and heater casing? I want to tell you about a simple performance test you can run on your hot water heater to test its efficiency. You will need a thermometer that registers at least 150 F., an accurate watch, a vacuum and a good stiff wire brush. Turn the hot water heater control to the pilot position. Allow the water heater to cool, or drain the heater and let it refill with cold water. Now turn on any hot water faucet and record the temperature of the water. I started my test with a water temperature of 60¡F. Make a notation of the time, and immediately turn the hot water heater ON. When all the water in the heater reaches the temperature you have set on your thermostat, the burner will go out. Immediately make a note of the time and turn the water heater off. Take another temperature reading at the same hot water faucet you used before. Some lucky person in your household now has the luxury of an entire tank of hot water while you continue on with the dirty part of the test. Allow the burner to cool off for at least 20 minutes. Cover the burner unit completely with a plastic bag. Using the wire brush and/or sandpaper, clean all the rust and scale from the bottom of the tank. It's rather a tight fit through the small door, but perseverance will pay its rewards. Be sure to wear gloves and a long sleeved shirt. For extra safety, wear goggles. A flashlight helps a lot. After the bottom of the tank has been thoroughly cleaned, remove the vent pipe from the top of the heater. Pull any baffle inside the heater up and out of the heater. Using a wire brush taped to a handle, clean rust and scale from the tube through the heater's tank. Take a little time and clean this tube well. The result of your efforts may be an impressive pile of gunk in the bottom of the heater. Vacuum all the rust and scale from the bottom of the heater. After I cleaned mine out, I lined the area under the burner with aluminum foil. This will help reflect radiant heat onto the tank. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1145 9-05-91 10:42pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 2 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ By now the lucky household member has probably used up all the hot water. If not, you get to use the hot water, but only until its temperature reaches the temperature reading at the very start of the test. In my case 60¡F. Now relight the pilot, turn the heater on, and immediately note the time. Wait until the water reaches the same thermostat setting as before and the burner shuts off. Note the time and temperature of the hot water at the same faucet you have been using. If your heater needed a good cleaning, it should take less time to reheat to the thermostat setting. I was able to reduce burner operating time in my case by 12 minutes. If you don't realize any change after you have cleaned your heater, your water may have high mineral content. This will cause mineral build up inside the tank and insulates the water from the burner's heat. Replacement is the only solution for tanks coated on the inside. What does all this data we've collected mean in terms of efficiency and BTUs saved? Subtract the start temperature from the final heated temperature for both data runs, one with the dirty heater and the other clean. Subtract the time figures from each other as well for each run. We now have two sets of data about how long it took to heat the water a known number of degrees. Look on the heater and find the manufacturer's info on tank capacity in gallons and burner size in BTUs. My heater has a 40 gallon tank, and is rated to deliver 38,000 BTU per hour. 38,000 BTUs per hr. @ 60 min. per hr. = 633.33 BTUs per min. 40 gal. X 8.33 lbs. per gal. = 333.2 lbs. of water in the tank. 1 BTU = 1¡F. temperature rise in 1 lb. of water. Here is the data from my test runs: BEFORE Temperature Increase = 72 F. Heating Time = 72 minutes AFTER Temperature Increase = 72 F. Heating Time = 60 minutes It took 72 minutes to warm the water up before cleaning the heater and 60 minutes to do the same job after cleaning. Since my burner produces 633.33 BTUs per minute, its operation for 72 minutes produces 45,600 BTUs of heat (633.33 times 72). Its operation for 60 minutes produces 38,000 BTUs. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1146 9-05-91 10:42pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Water Heaters 3 of 3 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The amount of heat it takes to raise the temperature of 333.2 lbs. of water (40 gallons- my tank size) 72 F. is 23,990 BTUs (333.2 times 72). This is the amount of usable heat I have gotten from my water heater. If we subtract the amount of heat we have put into the water from the amount of heat we produced on each test run, we can calculate heat lost and the efficiency of the heater. In my case, I lost 21,610 BTUs before the heater was cleaned (45,600 minus 23,990). After cleaning the heater I lost 14,010 BTUs. This can be calculated as efficiency. Before cleaning, efficiency of the heater was 52.6% (23,990 BTUs of heat into the water divided by 45,600 BTUs used in the burner). After cleaning, the heater is 63.1% efficient. The 7,600 BTUs of heat I saved by cleaning the heater amounts to an efficiency increase of 10.5 %. Not bad for an hours work. There are 91,500 BTUs in one gallon of propane. This means we have saved about 0.08 gallons of propane per tank full of hot water. Assuming that we use 50 tanks of hot water monthly and a local propane price of $1.20 per gallon, we save $4.98 per month. If I keep the heater clean all the time, then we save $59.76 yearly. If your fuel source is natural gas, there are 100,000 BTUs in one therm (100 cubic feet) of natural gas. Your natural gas meter reads in cubic feet. You can use the same and similar experiments to check heater efficiency. Try it after adding an insulating blanket to your water heater. Now that you've cleaned your heater and saved some BTUs for future use, use your imagination and go enjoy that full tank of hot water! Courtesy of and Copyrighted by Home Power Magazine Original publication Issue #3, April 1988 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1147 9-04-91 6:03pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Billy Cash Re: Turbines Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-03-91 21:56> Billy Cash wrote: BC> > He plans to produce: approximately 839,000 kW per year. BC> > Doesn't this seem to be kind of a low power output BC> Or do you mean 1,600 kW, or 1.6 megawatts? That is more what I had in mind... I am not sure how he arrived at that 839,000 kW figure... Unless he is only planning on running 8 hours a day. Simple calculations show his figure is off by quite a bit... With a penstock 7' in diameter, maybe he is planning on going to a larger turbine in the future, and does not want to arouse too much interest... That seems like a little overkill there too doesn't it? Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1148 9-04-91 6:38pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Gale Barrows <08-29-91 13:31> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> Yeah, the things I7ve read say the same thing...step it up TO> with a belt drive or (better) a belt drive that has those TO> rubber teeth because the transfer efficiency is better..but TO> that takes a semi-cogged wheel. Well, because it has to be TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually done. A possible source for belts like this might be the junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead camshaft timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer power without being stretched or stretching, and last a long time. I just replaced one on my wife's escort... at 75k mi., so, they my take a lot of abuse... (it was about 1/8" thick and 2" wide). I think that they only step them to a 2 to 1 ratio in a car, but you might be able to use a timing pulley on one end, and fabricate the other larger pulley. See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1149 9-04-91 6:45pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Terry Olsen <09-01-91 23:27> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> Actualy, the gearing up of the windmill speed to operate an GB> alternator would not be very difficult. Just a matter of GB> arrainging the right v-belt pulleys, chaindrive sprockets, GB> gears, or whatever you desire to use. The part I am having GB> trouble with (theoreticaly any how) is the propeller blades GB> themselves. It seems the blades and hub, especialy if a GB> governor is used, would be the hard part to design and GB> build. Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce other problems, and even some loss between the transfer of energy barrier, but it might make storing gusts possible, and constant output through a hydralic motor from a pressure storage tank... Just an idea, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1150 9-04-91 11:26am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC>I can't remember, Terry. I think it was the space shuttle BC>argument. BC> BC>>>>W>F>C>3> Whatever, my projects are less technical... Ohio is nice, but the West Coast has some hills..I hope to instalal a RAM pump at a small spring and bring costless water to my garden. I'd agree with most of what you've been saying. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1151 9-05-91 10:47am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ BC> > 50 lbs. of plutonium, should the spacecraft burn BC> BC>Carl Sagan wrote about this in USA Today. He said that there BC>was a chance in one hundred million that the thing would leak BC>ANY plutonium at all. BC> BC>"Irresponsible" and "fascistic" are very personal. I agree with you, BC. We shouldn't let the almost impossible and highly improbably event of accident stop us from exploring space and our understanding and use of space and our solor system is important to us in many ways. Actually, the limitiations we have placed on ourselves regarding nucle energy verges on insane. Potentially, such energy would clean our air (no more coal) and be advantageous in several ways. Today, nuclear power plants have been designed on paper to be much safer! Besides which we don't need to build then in population centers anyway. Let's take resonable precautions and build them...freeing ourselves from lots of polutions and freeing ourselves from SOME of our international dependance! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1152 9-06-91 07:52am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Gilmer Drive Belts Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I'm looking at needing to do a 15:1 speed reduction and am also looking at cogged power transmission belts, sometimes refered to as Gilmer drive belts. Many companies manufacture these including Gates and Goodyear and the pulleys are widely available also. For a high step-up or reduction an intermediate step may be in order. I haven't finalized an approach for my application yet (many other more important things to do at this stage) but I'm considering a 3:1 gear reduction couple to a 5:1 reduction using belts. For Gale's application he doesn't have to have a totally non-slip interface and he's not tryingto transmit that much power so standard V-belting may suffice. He might want to use multiple belts with either approach to add a safety factor. He should be able to find engineering data at the library on them and also info on the relative power transmission efficencys of different systems (various gear configurations, v belts, gilmer belts, chain drives, etc.). I believe that roller chains are the most efficent/least power consuming. He also may not need to use such a high ratio coupling. A friend at the lab is working on building a 2kW wind generator and is basing his on an alternator from a diesel application designed for maximum power at 800 rpm. I'll ask him for more details and pass them on. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1153 9-06-91 6:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Debate/Atomic energy... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Alright already.....Enough! One of the duties of the moderator is to moderate things. I have purposely NOT posted any rules or tried to limit discussion in this forum in any way to date. You folks don't want to actually make me work do ya? The topic of this conference is Alternative Energy and Personal power production. I don't see the need to get into the relative merits or problems with nuclear energy here. It doesn't fit into either of the headings above. I would also like to see debate kept to a minimum here, particularly if it starts getting personal. Oh you can debate technical stuff, such as the merits of savonius rotors vs. propellors for wind machines if you like but lets stick to the technical stuff okay? Unlike many of the FidoNet echos we've been able to avoid much of the B.S. so far and I'd like to keep it that way. Your moderator wants to keep this fun and informative and not have to play God or post the "rules" (which I hope to avoid having to figure out) every 25 messages or so. Please..... Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1154 9-07-91 10:19am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 1 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ COVER STORY (c) 1991 Easy Reader Newspaper Sun Worship on Ampere Alley by Wendy Raebeck There's a calm here at Phoenix International Raceway's one- mile oval track not usually associated with auto racing. Yet the races about to take place may be more important to Los Angeles than a Grand Prix. Here the excitement doesn't come from what you'd call a racing atmosphere. Few out here in the pits (are these pits, where's the grease?) are traditional race car owners, drivers or mechanics. The smudged jumpsuit set is noticeably absent. In their place are teams of three to 15 men and women in clean T-shirts and shorts hovering over their machines. Gasoline Alley has turned into Ampere Avenue. There are 22 vehicles in this long, open-air garage and no noise, no fumes, no smoke, no oil. No shouting over engines; no engines in fact. Electric motors only, and they're silent. On the track these vehicles glide like light, dragonfly creatures of pink, blue and white. This is the Inaugural Solar and Electric 500, the first closed circuit track race of solar and electric vehicles. Today, Friday, is for demonstration and display. Later this afternoon, 7,000 local children will arrive for "Education Day" to look at the future. After test driving one of the electrics, in fact, driving one's regular gasoline car again later will feel like the past. Noxious and dirty, too, like smoking a cigarette again long after quitting. The first electric auto was built in 1838. Until the early 1900s there were more battery-powered cars on the road than petrol-driven. The first (North) American electric appeared in 1904, and by 1910 the range had already been extended to 75 miles, running at 25 mph. Today 50,000 electric cars cruise U.S. by-ways. But who would know it? In the garage, owners, drivers, electrical engineers and solar technicians are chatting away. Facts are flying in here. For the outsider it's a maze of terminology. For the insider it's heaven. The solar fleet is sunbathing outside now, charging up for the 300-kilometer race--93 mile-long laps Saturday, and another 93 Sunday. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1155 9-07-91 10:19am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 2 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Twenty-two vehicles will compete in the weekend races. Nine solar entries, 13 electric--two of the 11 electric teams are entering two vehicles. The Electric 200 is Sunday, followed by the second half of the Solar 300. "You will be allowed to work on your vehicles till 6 p.m.," Ward Phillips, the solar race official, announces at the solar drivers' meeting. "Structural and safety work only. No charging of batteries allowed. After 6 p.m. you will have no access to vehicles until tomorrow's race. Today we had a little snafu because one of the regular Phoenix track officials here, accustomed to gasoline engine rules, requested that the fastest three qualifying vehicles stay at the finish line after practice. "The others came straight back to the garage and covered up as they'd been instructed. In solar racing any extra time in the sun can mean additional lap capabilities. So we had to catch that one real quick, and get those three back in here. But we're all learning." How each team chooses to spend its stockpile of stored sunbeams is the key to race strategy. Endurance counts over speed, but knowing the total performance capacity of your ride is the real thing. The highest average speed throughout the 93 laps decides the winner. But to cross the finish line--slow or fast, first or last--is the first requirement. Aside from the booty (even last place will get $700, and first will take $20,000), sportsmanship and success of new methodology surpass individual ambition. Competition actually seems secondary here to the exchange of information and techniques. Some racers here are actually unaware of the prize money. Experimentation is a unanimous theme, with tools and ideas passing freely up and down the garage. Events and commentary throughout the weekend made it clear that California is leading the nation, and perhaps the world, in electric/solar vehicle technology. The reason is clear-- California and Los Angeles are providing incentives. The state has mandated that 2 percent of all new vehicles sold here must be zero-emission by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. With the current state of solar technology most experts say this means electric cars. The Southern California Air Quality Management District is seeking to limit the use of hydrocarbon fuels even more by the year 2000. Other states and metro areas, including New York, are slated to follow California's lead in zero-emission legislation, meaning individual auto manufacturers will be barred from selling (any) vehicles in some major markets unless they also offer a zero-emission vehicle by the late 1990's. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1156 9-07-91 10:20am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 3 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Also, the City of Los Angeles (through Councilman Marvin Braude's office primarily) spurred the industry on two years ago by requesting proposals from various auto manufacturers on how they would provide electric cars for this metropolis. Los Angeles didn't commit to buying anything in the end, but agreed to help line up EV buyers. "For once the governments--local, state and federal--are anxious to have electric cars in the hands of the public," said Howard Wilson, a General Motors consultant, Los Angeles resident and educated spectator at the Phoenix 500. "Further incentive for EVs would include allowing them in the diamond (car pool) lane. A gasoline tax would make a huge difference too. The destruction of the U.S. auto industry is directly traceable to there not being a high gasoline tax." Wilson identified high gas prices in Europe and Japan as the chief motivation for the foreign design of the fuel-efficient autos that have challenged the great American gas guzzler. Surprisingly though, Wilson reports, Honda has set the late date of 1998 for release of its electric car. "They're a little slow at this," he says. Right now the U.S. seems to be in an excellent position to command the global transition from gas to electric vehicles. Wilson, at one time the vice president in charge of technology transfer between the Hughes Corp. and GM, said that GM is trying to get its first electric car, the Impact, into production as soon as possible. The manufacturing of the Impact is going to take a massive effort, Wilson says. "We built the first car in a year. We didn't have to worry about the manufacturing aspect. But if you intend to sell a car to the public, at an affordable price--let's say less than $20,000--then you've got to make them in some reasonable quantity," Wilson says. "It'll take 50,000 cars a year just to break even." Car buyers should begin to see the Impact in showrooms by the mid '90s, Wilson says. What about the price? "I don't know, but the intention is to sell--it's costing them hundreds of millions of dollars right now, with nothing coming in," Wilson says. The Impact is a cool buggy. With top speed of 75 mph, it accelerates from 0-60 mph in eight seconds. A year and a half ago, it beat both the Mazda Miata and the Nissan 300ZX in a drag race. And a regenerative braking system captures energy from the vehicle's forward momentum and uses it to recharge the batteries. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1157 9-07-91 10:20am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 4 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ GM has also completed a "hybrid" known as the HX3. Hybrid technology--a very feasible direction for the transition phase from gas to electric vehicles--employs both gas and electric systems in the same car. The HX3 can change from one system to the other with the flick of a switch. And its electric system gets a charge when the gas engine's engaged. The HX3 also uses regenerative braking, plus solar cells on the roof to power an auxiliary ventilation system. The solar and electric categories overlap inasmuch as they both use electric propulsion, and both have batteries. But electric cars are incomparably more practical for everyday use. "Electrics are stock cars, first of all," said Michael Hackleman of Venice. Hackleman is one of the pioneers of the new electrics and his magazine, Alternative Transportation News, is familiar to everyone at the track. "They're normal road cars, have all the amenities, and look like any other car. Solar cars are all prototypes. And they're designed for open, deserted stretches of road. They do not mingle well with other kinds of traffic. Also, even the highest efficiency solar cells still supply only a bit more than a horsepower of energy. "Unless you have a really aerodynamic car--very lightweight-- and a super-efficient drivetrain, it's not going to take you very far down the road. Solar cars are very fragile too; they're not crash-worthy. Plus they're too low to the ground to be safe on the streets. And the aircraft quality materials needed and the solar cells themselves are enormously expensive--$100,000 and often more." (The winning "Spirit of Biel II" cost about $700,000.) If solar cars are impractical and you don't want to wait for the Impact there are plenty of people in the garage at Phoenix with another answer. Dave Twine of Pacific West Supply Co., electric car No. 10, explains "conversions." "For converting a gas car to electric," he explains, "you want something small and light-weight--ideally a custom-built fiberglass arrangement. For better efficiency, so you can go further on a charge. The less weight you have, the more efficiency you'll have--that's just basic engineering. You start putting a couple of kids, a dog, in the back the efficiency's gonna go way down. For our race car, we're heavier than we want to be, but we need the extra battery load for the race." Did he drive his car here from Oregon? "No. We would've had to stop and recharge every 50 miles. It would've taken us two years to get here." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1158 9-07-91 10:21am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 5 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Then Craig Campbell takes us for a spin in car No. 49, his three-month-old, handmade electric, modeled after the VW Rabbit. "The first thing you notice," said Campbell as we roll out of the garage, "is it's so much quieter. Second, you can drive right by gas stations. And third, you don't go by the sound, you watch your meter." Campbell hand-builds his two-seaters, piece by piece, in Monterey and offers them for $26,000. The car has a 100-mile range (between charges), goes a comfortable 60 mph--or 75 for 10- minute hops--and recharges in six to eight hours in your garage or with an extension cord to your home. Now we stroll over to one of the Los Angeles teams: Hackleman, from Venice Beach, and his electric station-wagon. Hackleman's team, we now discover, has an unprecedented scheme to take on a full recharge in the pits during the race, in a 10-minute stop (as opposed to the eight hours most battery systems used in cars require." Hackleman's experimental system uses one giant battery pack in the car and an even bigger one waiting in the pit, to jolt the car's pack when it's out of juice. "If this can be done," race organizer, Ernie Holden, announces to the crowd on Saturday Morning, "right here, before the audience, we're talking about some interesting possibilities for the future." This novel quick-charge suggests that convenient placement of battery-recharging depots on normal roads could well-facilitate electric vehicle driving for all. Driven by Tim Considine, also of Venice (originally known for roles on "My Three Sons" and "The Mickey Mouse Club"), the Hackleman vehicle had been endearingly dubbed, "The Lead Sled." "Because of the battery load, we were 10 pounds over the 4,000- pound limit," says teammates Greg Glenn and Otmar Ebenhoech. "Other cars had to add stuff to reach the 2,500-pound minimum--we had to take out our back seat." Glenn, a photovoltaic panel engineer from Mar Vista, has converted a 1974 Fiat X19 to electric, in which his wife commutes to Paramount. And his next project is to mount a solar panel on the garage, to recharge the car by sun rather than socket, as another Los Angeles personality on hand for the races--and prominent contributor in the field of alternative energy actor/ecologist Ed Begley Jr. already does. Begley fuels not only his two electric cars but his entire house and office through solar paneling, (with normal electricity as a back up). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1159 9-07-91 10:22am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 6 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ How does a busy guy like Begley handle the supposed limitations of electric driving. "How do you deal with the mileage limitation?" is the inevitable question. "In 1988," Begley replies, "I tried to stop driving. I started walking, riding my bike, taking the bus, using my small electric. Plus I was on location a lot. But I still had my car. Then in 1989, I returned to Los Angeles and decided to take it a little further: I sold my gas car, and bought a more practical electric- -something I could carry groceries in. "I'm a stubborn bastard and when I decide to do something, I go for it. I haven't bought a gallon of gas now for a year and a couple of months." Begley took his electric to the Oscars this year instead of a limo, and even car-pooled with an Oscar nominee. The racing circuit is quite foreign territory to the solar experts. The solar vehicles have never been on a track before, and are not built to handle wind or turns like this. The bicycle tires they employ are not used to these speeds or sloped curves either. "We're pioneering this thing, and the way we show ourselves is the way we'll be known," says Phillips (quite the pioneer himself--having sponsored the 1987 Australian World Solar Challenge and also a vehicle in the 1990 GM Sunrayce) in closing the drivers' meeting. Seven of the nine solar entries are from colleges, including vehicles from Cal State, Los Angeles and Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. The favored, the finest and by far the fanciest, however, is the "Spirit of Biel II," a Swiss car sponsored by Swatch watches that has already won both the GM Sunrayce (Orlando to Detroit, summer 1990) and the Second World Solar Challenge (Darwin to Adelaide, Australia, November 1990). In fact, the other solar contenders see the Swatch car as a certain first and see themselves in a competition for runner-up. The ninth solar vehicle is Larry Mauro, representing ... himself, the only unsponsored contestant in the solar division. Larry was set further apart from the flock in that he arrived at the track Thursday night with not a solar vehicle in tow, but the raw materials for fabricating one. His "team" was his helpful brother, Kerry. Neither one had ever built a solar car before. The brothers Mauro were getting plenty of attention in the 11th hour, Friday night, diligently employing airplane glue and metal cutters to solar-cell this and fiberglass that. Speaking almost not at all, they were in astonishingly cheerful considering the unreadiness of their entry. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1160 9-07-91 10:22am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 7 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Apparently Larry's (just-built) motor was tested, at 5 p.m. Friday, but it was sitting by itself on the pavement. Who are these brothers, everyone wonders. Wilbur and Orville? Yes, actually. It turns out Larry built and flew the first ultra-light (home-built) aircraft, also without a corporate sponsor. And eventually the whole garage is tuned in to Larry's progress, some even believing this still-to-materialize solar ship might take second. The Mauros, meanwhile, anticipate a long night, and since the moon clearly can't top off whatever solar energy they've managed to capture with their unconnected solar panels, the "hands-off" rule is waved in this one exotic case. And what Larry lacks in teammates, he's gradually making up for in relatives, as sisters, mothers, and daughters materialize too from all quarters. Even Tim Considine, driving for Hackleman, turns out to be Larry's oldest, best buddy in the whole wide world. (To interview Tim was only to learn more about Larry, who seemingly has always been enchanted.) Saturday morning, race day. Begley speaks to the crowd as the solar cars take their starting positions. "We should stop thinking of electric cars as cars of the future, and think of them as cars of the present. I owned my first electric vehicle in 1970. There is 90 percent less pollution for 50 miles in an electric than in a gas car. One quarter of the gas you use is when your car is idling in traffic or standing still. In an electric car, when you take your foot off the accelerator--or the potentiometer, as it's called--you're using zero current. None, zip, zed. And we don't need new power plants for electric vehicles, because we charge at night, off-peak." The solar vehicles are at the starting line, the press has cleared the track. "Well," says Begley, "we can't say 'Gentlemen, start your engines' because there are no engines, and there are men and women racing. So...let's just say 'Let the sun start your motors!'" The green flag waves and soundlessly the solar vessels slide off the line. As it happened, the M.I.T. vehicle twice overtook the sure-bet Biel car Saturday, lending genuine and unexpected race-track thrills to the race. M.I.T. looked like an actual winner until it tipped on a curve and fell over, and wound up settling for second. (No one was injured.) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1161 9-07-91 10:23am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 8 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Swatch kept right on ticking, reaching 63.114 mph. on its fastest lap. Cal State, L.A. won third (Jeff Silverstone driving, 54.869 fastest lap); Cal Poly came in sixth (37.205 fastest lap); M.I.T. took second, with 62.288; Western Michigan University/Jordan finished fourth; Rose Hulman (Indiana) got fifth; Arizona State University was seventh; and Virginia Tech sailed in eighth. And Larry...well, race fans, his showmanship was outstanding. Saturday's sunshine revealed a snazzy yellow race car in Larry's slot with Larry and Kerry doggedly outfitting it with solar panels. At racetime, however, Larry climbed in and his weight forced the wheels outward and one buckled, depositing the car's nose unceremoniously into the ground. It seemed that even the most confirmed underdog rooter would have to write him off. But five minutes later Larry's yellow hornet rolled into starting position, wheels fixed, nose secured. A little Mauro wizardry, nothing unusual. And the car actually ran. But despite Larry's happy revolutions on Saturday-- intermittently tooting and waving to the crowd--his battery did not hold out. (Neither did the wheel, but they fixed it again.) And in order to compete in Sunday's leg, he had to recharge and suffer a "battery penalty" costing him a day's worth of laps. So, although his overall speed would have earned him fifth place (48.097 fastest lap), the penalty reduced him to ninth. The electric race was another historic event. "This is really the first electric car race in the U.S., in a race format, high speeds," said Michael Hackleman afterward. "Range is a big issue with electric vehicles; here both the first and second cars averaged better than 50 mph for two hours solid, and reached speeds over 60 mph at points. This is significant for electric vehicles (EVs). Typically EVs only get a 50-60 mile range at those speeds." Of the 11 electric teams, five hailed from California. Christopher Smith of Palos Verdes drove the winning car for Southern California Edison/Arizona Public Service, averaging 54 mph (for two full hours). Then he turned around the next weekend and competed in the Toyota Formula Atlantic race at the Long Beach Grand Prix. "They're so unrelated, going 70 mph (in Phoenix) and then going 170 mph in the Grand Prix," Smith says. "The electric race was for different reasons, to increase awareness and improve technology. The Long Beach race was just for competition and entertainment and whatever racing is for--I've never quite figured that out." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1162 9-07-91 10:23am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Solar 500 9 of 9 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Second place in the electric category went to James Worden of Arlington, Mass. He entered two of his "Solectrias," both built in Suzuki bodies, the other took fifth. At 23, Worden is a six- year veteran of solar car racing in Europe, Australia and now the U.S., having built his first solar car at 16. He is also one of the few auto manufacturers offering a real alternative in late-model cars, selling his electrics for about $22,500 a copy. Gary Jackson of Poway came in third in the electric race. Craig Campbell of Monterey was fourth, averaging 43 mph. Michael Hackleman's new charging system worked--at least in principle. "At 47 miles, we came into the pits with a dead battery." said Hackleman. "With this method we were consequently able to rack up a total of 74 miles instead. Our sponsor, Trojan Battery Co., was surprised and delighted." But Hackleman's electric finished sixth, averaging 37 mph. The electric vehicle era is clearly well underway. There's constant evolution in the field--no final word, on-going experimentation, continual new concepts and capacities. If you have time and a little extra money, you can join the pioneers and build your own EV. Cost: as little as $4,000 if you do it alone. (Scott Cornell, eighth in the electric race, constructed his saucy red Karmann-Ghia from all scavenged parts.) The technology's not complicated, you just have to seek out sources. "And," according to Solar/Electric 500 participants, "if you ask 20 experts, you'll get 21 different answers on how to do it." But remember we're not talking black fingernails and destroyed clothing, we're talking clean tools, clean wiring, clean batteries. And little repair thereafter. The only dirty work, when you build your own, is in removing the car's existing innards, which the pros do in a day. Then on to the creative process of designing, obtaining and installing your electrical system. If you're short on time and long on money ($10,000 or more), hire an experienced EV technician to convert your car for you. An advantage of EV-conversion vs. purchase of a new electric car is that participating in the conversion educates you in the process. Consequently you can maintain your vehicle yourself and even upgrade it as the technology improves. The Inaugural Solar and Electric 500 was something of a Woodstock gathering of vehicle enviromentalists. There was a sense of global stewardship and honor for the sun which could help us out of our vehicle madness. "Well, it's the beginning of an era, I guess," muses Larry Mauro, as the sun slipped below the Arizona mountains. "Be interesting to see what happens." It seemed more of a dawn than a sunset.ER --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1163 9-07-91 8:03pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Bianchi To: all Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 12vdc deep cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ..when I'm not in bed, on the toilet or in the shower, I'm in it. I use it for grocery shopping, trips to the library, to the mailbox, everywhere. Anyway, the life of these batteries is about a year. I have a charger which I plug into it nightly. At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that time, they show a reluctance to being charged and when the indicator does show a full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY fast -- it's a real bummer when you're crippled and your power chair runs out of edison several miles from home! Anyway, I've tried to figger why this happens -- it seems that the environment (heat, cold, vibration, etc.) would be MUCH more severe for an automobile battery as opposed to these, so WHY do they fail so quickly? Actually, this MAY be a blessing for some of you, as it means that there would seem to be a generous supply of used group 22 12vdc batteries to be found at shops that specialise in wheelchair servicing (they take my old ones and replace them). --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1164 9-08-91 12:12am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jim Bianchi Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Original Message Date: 07 Sep 91 20:03:37 > From: Jim Bianchi > To: all > Subj: deep cycle batteries > I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 > 12vdc deep cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ..when > I'm not in bed, on the toilet or in the shower, I'm in it. I > use it for grocery shopping, trips to the library, to the > mailbox, everywhere. Anyway, the life of these batteries is > about a year. I have a charger which I plug into it nightly. > At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to > full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that > time, they show a reluctance to being charged and when the > indicator does show a full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY > fast -- it's a real bummer when you're crippled and your > power chair runs out of edison several miles from home! > > Anyway, I've tried to figger why this happens -- it > seems that the environment (heat, cold, vibration, etc.) > would be MUCH more severe for an automobile battery as > opposed to these, so WHY do they fail so quickly? > It relates to the depth of discharge and recharge frequency most likely Jim. A car usually doesn't discharge it's battery that far or for very long, the alternator tops it right up again after it's used to start the car. If you could halve the depth of discharge they'd probably last a few months longer. I'm assuming they're either sealed or you check their water regularly. I would write to Pacific West Supply and ask them about options. They deal in all sorts of batteries and lately have been getting some reconditioned NiCads. The power density of Nicads isn't quite as good (less total power stored for a given volume) but they can handle deep discharge a lot better and can be recharged quite a few more times than even the premium lead-acid deep cycle batteries. It seems to me that while they might not get you as far that they wouldn't degrade as fast so you could count on their performance. I'll hazard a guess that the nicads would probably have the equivalent capacity as your lead acid do mid-life and be usable 2-3 times as long. If you write let them know the model battery and whether these are in series or parallel. Their address is 16643 SW Roosevelt, Lake Oswego, OR 97035. The too how's about building a framework overhead to hold a solar panel or two to help out the batteries when you go cruising? Could kinda be like an awning....maybe hand those furry balls from the edges too....be 'charp man. > Actually, this MAY be a blessing for some of you, as > it means that there would seem to be a generous supply of > used group 22 12vdc batteries to be found at shops that > specialise in wheelchair servicing (they take my old ones > and replace them). > I wish.....nope, actually you've pretty well used 'em up from what you're saying. The rest of the folks may have some ideas though. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1165 9-07-91 12:38am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Rich Jensen Re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RJ>In a message to Gale Barrows <08-29-91 13:31> Terry Olsen RJ>wrote: RJ> RJ>TO> Yeah, the things I7ve read say the same thing...step it up RJ>TO> with a belt drive or (better) a belt drive that has those RJ>TO> rubber teeth because the transfer efficiency is better..but RJ>TO> that takes a semi-cogged wheel. Well, because it has to be RJ>TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually done. RJ> RJ>A possible source for belts like this might be the RJ>junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead camshaft RJ>timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer power RJ>without being stretched or stretching, and last a long time. RJ>I just replaced one on my wife's escort... at 75k mi., so, RJ>they my take a lot of abuse... (it was about 1/8" thick and RJ>2" wide). I think that they only step them to a 2 to 1 ratio RJ>in a car, but you might be able to use a timing pulley on one RJ>end, and fabricate the other larger pulley. RJ> RJ>See ya, RJ>Rich Yep, that is the kind of belt to which I refered! But Rich, it was not I who intended to utilize such. My approach is different than that. I was responding to Gale Barrows' message and we were swapping information about what we had read and experienced so you message may have value to him. My approach to the wind thing involves redundancy by not depending on gear ratios from a central shaft but on picking up power from a hub. The hub being the perimeter of the blades and being made of metal. But the rubber belts with rubber teeth likly would require a double step up because the teeth width would be wide enough to require a pully several inches in diameter as the small pully. The large pully would need to be quite large for a single belt step up equal to times 15. wind = 100 RPM (typical) alternater requires 1800 RPM (typical) Therefore a step-up of 15-20 is required. And the rubber toothed belt is more efficient than a smooth belt but the step-up is going to be the same for belts or gears of ANY material!! And 10 to 20 percent of the wind power will be lost in the gearing. If perfectly designed and implemented, in theory, 8 percent would be the minimum gearing loss with your camshaft type belt. Doubt that will happen with a homebuilt rig though! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1166 9-08-91 11:58am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Ren Just To: don kulha Re: Just wanted to let you know.... Attr: Pvt ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ That the HomeBrew Power Systems echo is quite fascinating. I wish I had more time to fully read the articles and such that you are posting. The echo seems to be screaming out at me to sell the homestead and move north to try some of these goodies out. Talk to you later. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 1167 9-08-91 1:50pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I remember reading some time ago about a combination wind/water system. It sems that batteries were charged by a wind generator as normal but when the batteries got to a good charge level the electricicty was used to run a water pump. The water was pumped to an elevated tank and when the batteries got low and the wind didn't cooperate, the water was let out through a tuebine which rn a generator. Sounds like an expensive setup but it would also give a more reliable electric source. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: Sonoma Online RFE, Fido V12T/HST/V.32 (707)545-0746 (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2197 9-08-91 7:59pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Ren Just Re: re: Just wanted to let you know.... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > From: Ren Just > To: don kulha > Subj: Just wanted to let you know.... > That the HomeBrew Power Systems echo is quite fascinating. > I wish I had more time to fully read the articles and such > that you are posting. > The echo seems to be screaming out at me to sell the > homestead and move north to try some of these goodies out. Yeah, we're having a lot of fun with it. Alternative energy systems is a fascinating topic (...course I had someone tell me that about programming in "C" Friday...) and it's amazing what one can do with the wide variety of stuff currently on the market. Even if one isn't interested in a self powered homestead the info would be valuble if you wanted to brew up an uninteruptable power system for your computer(s). You could also do it cheaper and better using standard AE stuff than you could buying in the computer accessories market. I've had such flakey service from Pacific Gas and Electric this summer that I almost dread the onset of winter! A lot of folks into radio (ham & packet) have also expressed interest in what we're doing. It would definitly be fun to pack up the family and live off the grid in the country. Sigh, maybe soon. I think it would be an eye opening/awareness enhancing experience for my kids and myself. When you have to make due with what you yourself can make, be it food, entertainment or power you really appreciate what you've got and become hyperaware of it's use. There's also a tremendous amount of satisfaction in knowing you can be self reliant. When I lived up in Humbolt and the road to our property washed out we had to carry in water and the kerosene for lamps....you can bet I didn't waste a drop! Till Later, Don --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR, The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2198 9-04-91 12:06pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jack Betz To: All Re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ End User BBS, located in Pittsburgh, PA is now carrying this conference. --- KingQWK 0.05 Adding another point of access for Earthnet. --- UltraBBS v2.08 * Origin: End User BBS, (412)466-9380, Pgh PA, 14.4 USR HST/DS ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2199 9-07-91 2:42pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Tom Keller Re: Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > someone else who actually has the books on the > Tesla Turbine may be able to be more specific (and more > accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine > will work effectively as a hydro-turbing. when i mentioned the tesla turbine deisgn to a friend of mine who works on a fire crew he said it sounded very similar to the design of the water pumps they use on the fire-trucks. i don't know how similar the two designs actually are, but i wonder if it might be possible to use the pump in reverse as a hydro-turbine. again, this is all speculation on my part, but don't be too quick to rule out the possibility. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2200 9-07-91 3:01pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I will make the blueprints available to any interested partys > if it isn't a total flop. As far as availability of the > turbine goes I'm sure a machine shop local to you could > fabricate one. Many of the optimum design criteria are > unknowns at this point but we're trying to figure it out. > We decided to just barge ahead and build a working model > so we could play with different configurations to try and > determine how to optimize the design. this is the kind of thing i love to hear! "more power to ya" as we used to say. (-; i am eagerly awaiting the outcome of your tests, and would really appreciate a copy of the blueprints. i would be happy to pay copying and mailing costs. > Actually I'm sweating the collector/steam-generation > design more than the turbine. Would appreciate any input [...] > info to send this way my mailing address is: > > Don Kulha, POB 7518, Santa Rosa CA 95407 > ok, i will send you what i've got, which is mostly copies of articles from various popular-scientific type magazines over the last 5 or 6 years, but i think there are some useful ideas in them. michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2201 9-05-91 10:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Scott Parks To: Billy Cash Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > I would say, rather than "have to" use both .... we should > > re-evaluate our priorities and lessen our needs. > Why should we lessen our needs? We have all the plentiful > power we need. Some of our sources are not renewable, but I > think we should put more energy into developing better > energy. Rapid transit would lessen our needs, commuting by Modem would lessen our needs ..... product packaging, energy efficient housing and droping some of our "techno-junkyism".. - Walk a little lighter on this planet! Scott --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2202 9-08-91 11:46pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Michael Favor Re: Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > when i mentioned the tesla turbine deisgn to a friend of > mine who works on a fire crew he said it sounded very > similar to the design of the water pumps they use on the > fire-trucks. i don't know how similar the two designs > actually are, but i wonder if it might be possible to use > the pump in reverse as a hydro-turbine. again, this is all > speculation on my part, but don't be too quick to rule out > the possibility. > If the boundary layer effect works in one direction it should work in the other. One book I have makes reference to these turbines as used for fire fighting water pumps. Apparently they were not as finicky as the standard lifting style impeller type pumps. Another thing the book mentioned in numerous places was the pumps tolerance of debris, which would also reccomend it as a hydro turbine (apparently they can pump slurry and even concrete with minimal ill effect). We will see. I hunted down an address for the company making these disk style pumps (Mr. Jake Possell @ American Development and Manufacturing in San Bernadino CA), have composed a letter to them and will be posting it off to them tomorrow. Will let you know if and how they respond......DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2203 9-08-91 11:56pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Jack Betz Re: re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Welcome to the fray folks....Glad to have you join us. We're having too much fun to keep it to ourselves! (grin) Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2204 9-09-91 12:04am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Rapid transit would lessen our needs, commuting by Modem > would lessen our needs ..... product packaging, energy > efficient housing and droping some of our "techno-junkyism".. > - > Walk a little lighter on this planet! > Sound advice friend. While this doesn't *exactly* fall under the heading of this echo's topics it relates to the type of sustainable systems approach alternative energy relates to. On one hand I do feel guilty sometimes knowing what it takes to build the semiconductors that we have in our computers...hopefully they're put to good use such as we're doing with this echo in trying to make a difference. Rich Perez, the publisher of Home Power Mag is really pleased about what we're doing because we can spread this info around without "killing more trees" as he puts it. I'm an information junkie and while I recycle every paper and magazine I get I'd still like to get it in digital form online and avoid it ever having to be in hardcopy. I try to keep a balance....the can opener is manual, all steel and I drive a 22 year old Volkswagen Bus (wouldn't trade it in if I won the lottery - I think the design is about optimum for what I need a vehicle to do). We need appropriate tools and to make good use of the one's we get. That's one of the reason's I championed the ECONET echo early one (pre-Esty) and why I started this. Hope what we're doing will make a difference....for our sake and our children's ....., Don Kulha, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2205 9-05-91 5:05pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Don Kulha Re: Re: M.E.N. generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > > I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us using this echo > were either strongly influenced by TMEN or were at least > avid readers. I mourned the loss of the "old" TMEN when > the "Rodale-ization" and "Yupification" took hold. I > heard that it was no longer being published and then, a > few days ago, saw it on the newsstand again. The very day that I posted that message, I saw TMEN on the newstand myself, Don. It looked pretty good at a quick glance. Now, to see if they honor their "lifetime members".... --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2206 9-05-91 5:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Jim Bianchi Re: re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Gale. Re: obtaining proper prop blades and hubs, > mayhaps inquiries around a civil aviation airport might > turn up a source of used aircraft props. Seems to me > that, esp with a variable pitch arrrangement, these > would be ideal, if the price was right. Jim, Not being an aeronautical engineer, I don't know the reasons, but I've read that the shape of an airplane propellor is extremely poor for use on a wind machine. The variable pitch arrangement should be usable, however. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2207 9-09-91 10:03am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Michael Favor Re: Re: Turbine Fabrication Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Michael, I too would like copies of that. If Don is amenable, you could send a set to me, and I could use my copier to copy off a set for him (thus reducing the mailing and copying burden on you). Let me know. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2208 9-09-91 10:06am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Pardon the slightly off-topic query, but could you define what you meant by "pre-Esty" in your reference to ECONET? Thanks in advance. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2209 9-09-91 5:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So'kay.....My whole post was slightly off topic. The Moderator should exercise some caution after partaking of a couple fine ales 'lest he wax philosophical. It was a reference to a person who used to frequent that echo that ran off at least six people I know of (including myself) by their somewhat zelous and over confrontative approach. Being about the closest thing to a moderator the echo had at that time I should have stepped in but didn't since I don't much care to impose limits. Sigh, live and learn I guess.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2210 9-09-91 09:35am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Michael Favor To: Jack Betz Re: Re: New Node Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > End User BBS, located in Pittsburgh, PA is now carrying > this conference. > > --- > KingQWK 0.05 Adding another point of access for Earthnet. > i know this is slightly off-topic, but can you tell me briefly what Earthnet is, or offer pointers to more information? thanks, michael. --- Opus-CBCS 1.71 * Origin: Humanity Net BBS, Chico CA, 916-891-1920 (1:119/4.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2211 9-10-91 5:37pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Greg Hassen To: don kulha Re: pv theft Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Thanks for the tips on theftproff pv mounts. I have seen the roof tiles that have solar cells attached to them in popular science a couple of years ago. Very expensive!! They are made in Japan I believe. I think someone could make alot of money if they could build a pv in the form of a roofing shingle or some other type of unrecognizeable form to prevent theft. At 300-500 bucks a pop, someone slimebag could hit the jackpot ! I'm trying to locate a supplier with price info on pv 's that you can just roll out on the roof when i'm at my cabin and roll them up when I leave. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2212 9-09-91 8:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-08-91 13:50> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> I remember reading some time ago about a combination GB> wind/water system. It sems that batteries were charged by a GB> wind generator as normal but when the batteries got to a Well, that was not exactly what I had in mind... but, sort of. I discussed it with my father, and he said there would be too much loss converting from wind to pressurized fluid then to electricity... especially just to gain the power of the gusts... he wanted to know why people do not used "constant speed drives like airplanes?"... He said you simply set a speed, and it adjusts the pitch to match... as used in an AT6/SNJ or BT13... (I am not an airplane nut, but he is.) He said they use smaller ones in 4/6 cyl Navion planes (I think that's what he said). Also, they use a "CSD" (Constant Speed Drive) for powering generators in jet engines (he retired this year at 58 from P&WA as an Experimental Test Engineer), but he said they are fairly big/complex units. He said there are "hydrostatic" type drives used on some lawn mowers which might be adaptable, affordable and be better suited for a very low power type operation, using a 2 variable sized v-belt pulley arrangement. But, he thought the arrangement used on old steam type equipment using a 3 ball centrifigal force type setup could be the most accurate to adjust the pitch of the blades... the spinning weights might not detract from the power, but might actually help to even out the gusts, like a flywheel if mounted directly to the prop shaft inside the unit... I thought it might be kind of tough to get the right adjustments, he thought it could be calculated. And, through a little trial and error, set up using a 1/3 hp motor on a test bench to develop the correct characteristics instead of wasting the power held in gusts, or times of low winds... and could be made out of fairly inexpensive components... Well, that was most of our conversation on the way to the Stock Car Races at the Waterford Speedbowl last saturday nite (except for the blurbs about S shaped blades starting to be used in RC modeling, and insisting they might have some usefulness in windmills in the future). BTW, he gave me his season pass to use this weekend since he will be at the Air Races in Reno... This might be a lot of old water under the bridge, but it was new to me so I thought I would share it with you, I hope it didn't bore you. See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2213 9-09-91 9:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Tom Keller Re: Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-04-91 10:45> Tom Keller wrote: TK> accurate), but I don't believe that the Tesla Turbine will TK> work effectively as a hydro-turbing. As I understand it, TK> the Boundary Layer principal upon which it is based TK> requires that the pressurized medium be expanding. I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump which was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. They thought it was remarkable, and it actually looked pretty impressive... I thought if it could pump water, that the turbine would be able to harness power in a similar fashion... In fact, I thought it was designed to be used for this type of application, but I might be wrong... My father came across a book on Fitz water wheels which were tested to be about 95% efficient utilizing low heads... I do not think they are still in business, but, the designs are pretty straight forward... it is all in the shape of the buckets and the timing of the entry of the water. He picked up a bunch of materials from the Hanford Mills in upstate NY, so we could look it over... I see MEN prefers the Banki turbine, but efficency seems to be a lot lower in that type design for a low head/high volume operation... The search continues... Thanks for the input, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2214 9-10-91 8:04pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Terry Olsen Re: Re: re: oops Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-07-91 00:38> Terry Olsen wrote: TO> RJ>TO> stepped up about 15-20 times, a dual step is usually TO> RJ>A possible source for belts like this might be the TO> RJ>junkyard... Belts with notches, such as overhead TO> RJ>timing belts? They are thin, strong, meant to transfer TO> gear ratios from a central shaft but on picking up power TO> from a hub. I have seen such arrangements before when two bicycle rims were used, and a long belt wrapped around both of them and around a small pulley... In a fairly large sized prop setup, that would seem like a real pain in the butt, and it would seem to be better to use chains and sprockets... but, if you are talking about using the hub in the center of the blades, you might want to consider a spinner for your propellor... (unless you already have) since the center of the props are basically a waste anyway, and driving off of a spinner either on the internal or external surface of the back end of it. I have not seen anything like that yet... Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2215 9-10-91 06:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JD> Not being an aeronautical engineer, I don't know the JD>reasons, but I've read that the shape of an airplane JD>propellor is extremely poor for use on a wind machine. The JD>variable pitch arrangement should be usable, however. I understand the reasoning...in the same way that a generator makes a poor motor and a motor makes a poor generator.....so too with airplane props. Instead of high speed (relative to the wind) cutting through the air the prop would be asked to be effected by the air in a windmill...the twist, etc doesn't do a very good job.. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2216 9-10-91 12:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Bianchi To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Wind Generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jim, re: using aircraft props for wind generators. You're prob right. Seems that the a/c props would be optimised for GRABBING and SHOVING the air, which is a different thing entirely from having the air SHOVE and TURN the blades. This is why I suggested asking about a variable pitch thingie. Hey, if you're poor and it turns out that the dif 'tween having a properly designed and constructed prop at a cost you can't afford and a surplus variable pitch prop that works *nearly* as well (but not quite) at a price you CAN afford, well.. The main reason I mentioned that, though, was that, considering the speeds these things are turning when they're operating as propel- lers, considerations relating to "gee, I wonder if the blades will hold up and not fly apart due to poor mat'l, design, etc." simply shouldn't arise. Ditto hubs. With the variable pitch thing, it should be fairly easy to optimise the setting for max power transmittal. Like I said, it might not be the most efficient in the east, but IF the price was right, the compromise might not be unacceptable. I don't know if the price would be right myself, which is why I suggested asking to find out. Sometimes, a guy can get a real bargain thru a friend -- on a one time only basis. It all depends on who you know, where you go, etc. --- The Msg Mgr for TDBS * Origin: Home of The Sports Network & TDBS/DOOR Software. (1:125/2553) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2217 9-08-91 1:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Martin Belcke To: All Re: Backbone status Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Well, it won't be "officially" announced until Monday 9 Sep, but HOMEPOWR has obtained backbone status. CONGRADULATIONS!! This will mean that feeds will need to be arranged with NEC's, etc PLEASE - - DO NOT ASK FOR THIS ECHO FROM YOUR NEC until after Wednesday, Sep 11th. Give them time to find out about it. --Martin Belcke-- REC11 --- D'Bridge 1.30/002225 * Origin: Region 11 REC (309) 672-4405 (1:232/10) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2218 9-11-91 11:54am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Philip Malkin To: All Re: Hydrogen Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Does anyone have information about using water as a fuel source to generate hydrogen as an energy source. I have heard that by seperating the H2O by electrolysis the hydrogen can be used as a source of fuel for generating energy for powering an automobile, etc. Any additional info about this stuff would be most appreciated. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2219 9-10-91 10:26pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Tom Keller Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Kindly tell the family and friends of the crew of the > CHallenger that such an accident is highly unlikely. Kindly > tell the family and friends of the Apollo crew that was burnt > alive that such an accident was highly unlikely. The Challenger and Apollo accidents were not nuclear-related, as you know. They were both catastrophic, but they did not involve plutonium or other radioactive substances, and they did not kill or mutate millions of people on Earth, as the critics of the Galileo feared. > The fact is that due to cost-cutting measures and political > haymaking, the safety of our space program is woefully bad, > and such accidents are *MUCH* more likely than the theoretical > calculations would suggest. Given the number of space > missions launched, and the number of fatal accidents already > on the books, would you care to re-calculate the odds based on > pragmatic experience, rather than over optomistic theories? I'm not basing anything on theories. But if you care to calculate the odds of nuclear contamination of the entire planet, the odds are zero -- if you base it on "pragmatic experience." > You are quite right, "fascistic" *IS* highly personal. > Since you felt it necessary to denigrate realistic, concerned > individuals for expressing honest, reasonable (based on FACTS, > not THEORIES) concerns, I felt no compunction about pointing > out to you how offensive you were being. However, you are wrong again. I don't believe that your concerns are based on real facts, true numbers. True numbers cannot be optomistic -- they are numbers. And since the argument of facts, not theories, is a false one, the rest of the statement is also a false one. >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2220 9-10-91 10:35pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Billy Cash To: Terry Olsen Re: Battle of the Currents Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Ohio is nice, but the West Coast has some hills..I hope to > instalal a RAM pump at a small spring and bring costless water > to my garden. Do hills and springs go together? (You sort of lost me.) Most of Ohio is flat, but glaciers left the southeast slice untouched, so we have lots of gravel, sand, granite, coal and limestone, and some mountains (about 800 feet is the average -- nothing big.) > I'd agree with most of what you've been saying. That makes one... >>>W>F>C>3> --- * Origin: Programmer's Connection BBS - Columbus - 614/875-2286 (1:226/70) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2221 9-11-91 11:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Rich Jensen Re: Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump which > was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. They > thought it was remarkable, and it actually looked pretty > impressive... I thought if it could pump water, that the > turbine would be able to harness power in a similar > fashion... In fact, I thought it was designed to be used for > this type of application, but I might be wrong... It's been conjectured that Tesla's initial insite into the turbine he designed was as you thought...for taking power from the flow of water. When he was a child he made a model of a small water wheel of a similar configuration. One conceptual model Tesla used to demo the idea of the turbine was to take a disk on a shaft, tilt it and flow water over one side. Of course the adhesion of the water to the disk causes it to spin. His inital design for the turbine used steam but he claimed any fluid (gases, water, steam, air) would work. Strange things happen...The fellow who has been building all these Tesla style pumps, most likely including the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. Possell, called me out of the blue today! I wasn't home dammit but my answering machine got his message and he left an address. Guess someone I called looking for a lead to contact him must have contacted him, told him what I was up to and given him my number. I hope to get the REAL dope on the turbines and pumps here soon. He left me his address and invited me to write. After all the trouble I've gone to to track him down I was absolutely floored! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2222 9-11-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Some years back in the now defunct Solar Age magazine I saw a very interesting powerplant. It was a tall circular tower rising up from a base that spread out maybe 100 yards around the base of the cylinder forming the tower. This base was evevated from the ground and gently sloped up to the base of the cylinder. There was a rotor of some sort (maybe more than one) at the top of the tower. Air was heated at the base and in the cylinder, causing it to rise and turning the rotors generating electricity. I think this was in France. Anyone out there know anything about this? I thought it was a truely elegant idea and apparently it did work though how well remains to be seen. DCK P.S.-Forgot to mention that the whole thing was colored black.... --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2223 9-11-91 11:34pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Philip Malkin Re: re: Hydrogen Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Does anyone have information about using water as a fuel > source to generate hydrogen as an energy source. I have > heard that by seperating the H2O by electrolysis the > hydrogen can be used as a source of fuel for generating > energy for powering an automobile, etc. Any additional info > about this stuff would be most appreciated. > First off let me reccomend that you send $3.50 to the folks at Home Power Mag (POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044) and ask for a copy of issue #22 (May 1991). It contained two excellent articles on Hydrogen, electrolyzers and fuel cells (which generate electricity from Hydrogen and oxygen). Humbolt State College in northern CA has an excellent program going which you'd find fascinating (outlined in the issue). Also in that issue was an article on electrolyzers by L.E Spicer (Hydrogen Wind Inc., RR #2 Box 262, Lineville Iowa, 50147 (515)876 5665) who sells these devices for $125. They will also sell you plans and info for a buck. That should get you going! DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2224 9-10-91 07:22am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Dennis Garringer To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Ae Careers 2 Of 2 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Don, Called the Colorado Mtn. College today about their Solar program. Sorry, but it no longer exists. Two of the gentelmen that were teaching it have struck out on their own as Solar Tech Institute at Carbondale Colorado. Their number is 303 963-0715 (office) or after hours 303 963-2682 (after 7:00 pm) ask for Ken. Hope this helps, Bye!! Dennis --- QuickBBS 2.66.r * Origin: Wildfire - Save the Earth... Conserve & Recycle . (1:119/911.0) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2225 9-12-91 10:23pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 1 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So how many PV cells do I need in my panels, anyway? by Richard Perez Solar modules are made with between 32 and 44 series cells for 12 Volt use. How many cells are enough? How many are too much? What is the optimum number of cells to put in a panel for 12 Volt use? Well, as usual, it depends on our specific application. The Single PV Cell In order to understand why there are differing numbers of PV cells in modules, let's first examine the single cell. This little marvel converts light directly into DC electricity. It does this job within very specific limits. These limits are, according to the quantum mechanics among us, built into the structure of our Universe. The limits of the single PV cell determine the operation of the collection of cells we call a module or panel. The electrical power generated by the PV cell has two components: voltage (E) and current (I). The output power (Watts or P) that the cell produces is the product of cell's output current times its output voltage. P=IE. The voltage output of the PV remains fairly constant over a wide range of input lighting, just as long as there is some light. The current, however, varies in direct proportion to the amount of light entering the PV cell. The more light entering the cell, the more current it produces. The cell's voltage remains the same from dim to bright lighting. For the purposes of discussion here, consider a 100mm X 100mm (4 in. by 4 in.) multicrystal silicon PV cell. Monocrystal or amorphous silicon cells will differ slightly. The absolute value of the voltage information will differ, but the general performance trends remain the same for all types of silicon PV cells. This example cell is rated using the standard AM 1.5 Solar Input of 100 milliWatts per square centimeter, about the amount of sunshine you receive on a sunny noontime. PV Cell Voltage This multicrystal silicon solar cell has an open circuit voltage of about 0.57 Volts at 25 C. Open circuit voltage means that the cell is not connected to any load and is not moving any current. Under load, the output voltage of the individual cell drops to 0.46 Volts at 25 C. It will remain around this 0.46 V level regardless on the sun's intensity or the amount of current the cell produces. This decrease in voltage is caused by resistance losses within the cell's structure and the metallic conductors deposited on the cell's surfaces. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2226 9-12-91 10:23pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 2 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Temperature affects the PV's cell's voltage. The higher the temperature is, the lower the cell's output voltage becomes. The PV cell's output voltage falls about 5% for every 25 C. increase over 25 C. PV Cell Current While the voltage of a PV cell is very reliable, its current output is one big, fat variable. The cell's current depends on how intense the light is, and most importantly for this discussion, the voltage difference between the cell (or collection of cells) and the load (in most cases a battery). Under operating conditions this cell is rated at 2.87 Amperes of current by its manufacturer. I have measured the current output of this type of cell at 4.2 Amperes on a very cold, very clear, very bright & very snowy Winter's noon. Altitude is a factor that affects the cell's output current. The Earth's atmosphere is absorbs sunlight. The higher you are, the less atmosphere there is above you, and the more sunlight you receive. Expect to see current gains of about 5% for every 5,000 feet above sea level. Cells into Modules When PV cells are assembled into modules they are wired in series. The positive pole of the one cell is connected to the negative pole of the next cell, and so on until all the cells in the module are connected in a series string. This series wiring is done to raise the voltage of the module. A single cell has a voltage potential of 0.46 Volts. This is not enough voltage to do any usable work in a 12 Volt system. But if we add the Voltage of say 36 cells by series wiring them, then we have a working voltage 16.7 Volts, and that's enough to charge a 12 Volt battery. The operational voltage range of a lead acid battery is between 11.6 and 16 volts. The battery's exact voltage depends on state of charge, temperature, and whether the battery is being charged or discharged at the time. It is this battery voltage curve that the modules are designed to fit. After losses in the blocking diode and the wiring are subtracted, the module MUST provide greater voltage than the battery possesses. If PV module cannot do this, then it cannot transfer electrons to the battery. It cannot recharge the battery. The current produced by the module remains the same as the current produced by a single cell, about 3 Amperes. The series wiring technique causes the voltages to be added, but the current remains the same. We could parallel connect the 36 cells. This would add their currents rather than their voltages. The result would be a module that produces 108 Amperes, but at only 0.46 Volts. Hardly a useful item. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2227 9-12-91 10:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 3 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ So How Many Cells? PV module manufacturers make 12 Volt modules with 32, 36, or 44 cells in the series string. They are all rated at about the same current, being composed of the same basic cell. The difference between these modules is one of voltage. The question for us to answer is how their output voltages relate to the voltages we require for our system. 32 Cells in Series This module has the lowest voltage rating of 14.7 Volts (0.46 Volts times 32 cells). This is because it has the fewest cells in its series string. This module is designed to very closely follow the charge curve of a 12 Volt lead acid battery. As the battery fills, its voltage climbs. When this battery is almost full its voltage is around 15 volts. The 32 cell module simply hasn't enough voltage to continue recharging the battery when its full. These 32 cell modules are commonly called "self regulating" because they lack the voltage to overcharge the average, small, lead acid battery. The applications suitable for the 32 cell module are RVs, boats, and summer cabins. These applications are characterized by intermittent use and relatively small battery capacity. In these applications, the 32 cell module can be used without a regulator and the batteries will not be overcharged during periods of disuse. 36 Cells in Series This module has an output voltage of 16.7 Volts (0.46 times 36 cells). This is enough voltage to continue to charge a lead acid battery even though it may be fully recharged. The 36 cell module is the workhorse of the Home Power user. It is most suitable for 12 Volt AE systems with battery capacities over 350 Ampere-hours. It has the higher output voltage necessary to recharge high antimony, deep cycle, lead acid batteries. It does, however, require regulation in many cases to prevent overcharging the battery during periods of disuse. This type of module needs regulation in systems where the total current generated by the PVs is greater than a C/20 rate to the battery. For example, a 350 Ampere-hour battery has a C/20 rate of 17.5 Amperes (350 Ampere-hours/20 hours). At 3 Amperes per module, the 350 Ampere-hour battery will not require regulation until there are 6 modules within the system. This is true only if the system is in constant use. If a system is unused for days at time, then regulation should be added if the 36 cell modules can produce a C/50 rate or more to the battery. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2228 9-12-91 10:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 4 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The 36 cell module is more cost effective in Home Power applications because of its higher current at higher voltages and temperatures. The higher voltage of 36 series wired cells more effectively recharges the large lead acid batteries. Higher temperatures cause the voltage of any module to drop. The 36 cell module has enough voltage surplus to still be effective at higher temperatures, like on a hot Summer's afternoon. 44 Cells in Series The modules are the hot rods of the PV industry. 44 cells in series yields a working output voltage of 20.3 volts. These modules do not diminish in current output into a 12 Volt system, regardless of battery's voltage or high module temperature. They WILL REQUIRE REGULATION in just about every application. They have the voltage to raise the system's voltage, while charging full batteries, to well over 16 volts. This is high enough to make any equipment on line (like an inverter) very unhappy. Over voltage can ruin electronic equipment. The 44 cell modules have very specific applications. They are designed for systems that must accept voltage losses in transferring the PV energy to its destination. Consider a low voltage pump located some 300 feet down a well. The electricity that powers this pump must travel 300 feet down the well to the pump and 300 feet back up again. This 600 foot long wire run will have appreciable voltage losses even if monster big wire (like 0 or 00 gauge) is used. In order to deliver acceptable voltage levels at the pump we can increase the voltage of the module and just eat the losses in the wire. The 44 cell module, with its 20.3 Volt operating level can stand a loss of over 6 Volts and still be effective at the pump. A word to the wise here. The cost of additional cells within the module is far greater than heavy copper wire. Be sure that it's not cheaper to use big wire in your application before you decide on the 44 cell module to solve voltage loss problems. Another side benefit of the 44 cell module is its response in high temperatures and very low levels of light. We ran two modules, each using the same cells, side by side for comparison. The only difference between the modules was one had 36 cells in series, the other 44. The 44 cell module consistently produced more useable power in three situations: 1) The system voltage was above 15 volts, 2) the ambient temperature was very hot (over 40 C.), & 3) the ambient light was very dim (in fog or on overcast days). We tabulated the results and compared performance with price and the 36 cell module was more cost effective. Even though the 44 cell module performed better, this increase in performance was not enough to offset its higher price. If you live in a very hot area, then the additional voltage of the 44 cell module may indeed pay for itself. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2229 9-12-91 10:25pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: PV Panels 5 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In A Nutshell The 32 cell module is for small and often unused 12 volt systems. Its big advantage is it doesn't need a regulator. The 36 cell module is best for most Home Power systems. It supplies the most cost effective energy to 12 volt systems using lead acid batteries. The 44 cell module is suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss problems. Its advantages are higher output voltage and strong performance in very hot locations. Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine POB 130, Hornbrook CA 96044, 1989 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2230 9-12-91 8:54pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: All Re: PURPA Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I just got this add in the mail, I don't remember seeing any mention of it here yet, I hope I am not being repetitive... PURPA Lines. The latest intellegence on opportunities in independent power development, in an easy to read format. You get up-to-date state and national news, learn how the latest regulatory actions can mean more business for you... You can get a one month free subscription, too. It costs $147.50 for 7 months, but it claims to feature a lot of valuable information, contacts in FERC and a resident attorney, plus hot tips in power and which companies are looking to buy power. Sounds like a lot of money to me, but I think I might take them up on the free trial issue... Their address: PURPA LINES, HCI Publications, 410 Archibald St, Kansas City MO, 64111-9924 Phone: (816)931-1311, Fax: (816)931-2015 I thought someone may be interested, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2231 9-13-91 11:14am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: PV Panels 5 of 5 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ DK>The 32 cell module is for small and often unused 12 volt DK>systems. DK>Its big advantage is it doesn't need a regulator. DK> DK>The 36 cell module is best for most Home Power systems. It DK>supplies DK>the most cost effective energy to 12 volt systems using lead DK>acid DK>batteries. DK> DK>The 44 cell module is suited to 12 volt systems with voltage DK>loss DK>problems. Its advantages are higher output voltage and DK>strong performance DK>in very hot locations. DK> DK> Courtesy of and Copyright By Home Power Magazine I sure don't agree with Home Power Magazine nor with you for posting this misinformation! 44 cell modules are suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss problems? Good GOD! Why shoud one tolerate a voltage loss? Take any of the modules you list and connect them DIRECTLY to a standard 12 volt car battery and you'll be able to have some lights or TV. Maybe an hour or two. And don't put in any silly diodes either, just connect them directly. In the case of the largest panel, if it might go some time without being used, then better to have 2 car batteries. But if you've got a deep cycle battery then by all means connect up to 4 panels of any size directly and don't worry at all about overcharge unless you don't use the system except once a month. There is a lot of sillyness about voltage regualtors and diodes and such nonsense .... and all of it is just a waste of time, money and energy untill you get to 6 panel systems or larger...well there could be some minor exception for little used systems and very hot panels...but most of the installations, actual installations by professionals have voltage regualtors ($20-$150) and diodes ($2-$10) and are only a source of lost power and money. Such junk malfunctions and often is poorly connected and worse! Take all that junk out of small systems! Take it all out of systems of 4 panels or less...and most of it out of 6 panels or less. And the way to mount a panel is complicated, right? About 1-2 'o-clock connect a 12 or 24 watt light bulb accross the panel and turn the panel for max brightness..for God sake! All this high-tech baffelflash is terrific but doesn't drive the stereo! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2232 9-14-91 12:07am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ don u got Solar age too? i wish i could find by back copies of it. I recall the idea you are talking about. Seems the material would heat up the airand looking for a place to escape would rise up this fabric tower and turn the "paddle wheel" to generate power. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2233 9-10-91 8:32pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Jim Dunmyer To: Rich Jensen Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump > is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce > other problems, and even some loss between the transfer > of energy barrier, but it might make storing gusts > possible, and constant output through a hydralic motor > from a pressure storage tank... > I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives (which is what you're describing). Their advantage is flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a mechanical standpoint, and the speed control of the driven element while having a constant-speed power source is great. However, efficiency is not their strong suit. You pay dearly in heat (read: power) loss for this flexibility. Mind you, it's a small price to pay when you need that flexibility, but it wouldn't be too nice for a wind system. Hydraulic systems use "accumulators" which are far more than just a pressure tank, and insignificant amounts of energy can be stored practically in an accumulator. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: EchoMaster (1:234/100) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2234 9-14-91 3:59pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Gale Barrows To: Rich Jensen Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Some of the old wind generators from the 1930's and 1940's when they were popular and common used a variable pitch blade that helped maintain a constant blade speed. The mechanism was fairly complicated yet simple once you understood it. It seems that many of todays makers are attempting to re-invent the wheel with their designs. In the pre REA days, many if not most farms had wind generators and ran 32 volt systems. The old 32 volt motors and such are still turning up on auctions. I am sure there are still a lot of the old generators still stashed in sheds around the prairie. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2235 9-14-91 5:24pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Terry Olsen Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I sure don't agree with Home Power Magazine nor with you for > posting this misinformation! > 44 cell modules are suited to 12 volt systems with voltage loss > problems? Good GOD! Why shoud one tolerate a voltage loss? > Take any of the modules you list and connect them DIRECTLY > to a standard 12 volt car battery and you'll be able to have > some lights or TV. Maybe an hour or two. And don't put in Calm down Terry....This isn't a conspiracy or anything. There are solid reasons for the use and existance of 44 cell panels. They start producing useable power at 5% of maximum solar insolation, are good for systems with losses and (as you noted) are sometimes needed in very hot climates. In the higher latitudes, such as Alaska they are very popular and widely used since the usual 16V panels (44's are usually 17.5) don't start making power until the sun reachs 10% of max. Why should anyone tolerate a voltage loss? Ideally they shouldn't but realistically most people do. Maybe you want to place your panels on the otherside of the garden away from the house or your house is on the north side of a ridge....95% of the folks should be using 16 volt panels but there is room in the market now for special sized panels to fill special requirements....DCK P.S.-The 17.5v panels are also popular for direct use setups such as stock pond water pumping where they will be used without batteries and the wire usually needs to be fed a ways down the well. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 2236 9-14-91 6:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Re: Thermal Tower Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > don u got Solar age too? i wish i could find by back copies > of it. > > I recall the idea you are talking about. > Seems the material would heat up the airand looking for a > place to escape would rise up this fabric tower and turn the > "paddle wheel" to generate power. > Yep, I took Solar Age and enjoyed it too. I was really suprised when it folded. Yep, that's the one. Granted for the space it took up and the difficulty to errect it the power was low (something like 20kW) but it was an ellegant idea. One of these days when I have the leisure time to pursue it I'd like to see if the idea couldn't be applied on a smaller scale. With some of the new solar selective thin film coatings on foils it might really be efficient enough to scale down. Even 500W would be nice. I built a solar air heater and the volume of convective flow through it suprised me....hmmmmm....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6165 9-14-91 2:52pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: gordon green To: Jim Bianchi Re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On , Jim Bianchi (1:125/7) wrote to all: JB> I have a power wheelchair that uses two type 22 12vdc deep JB> cycle batteries. I use this thing daily ... JB> Anyway, the life of JB> these batteries is about a year. I have a charger which I plug into JB> it nightly. At the start of the year, the batteries will `come up' to JB> full charge almost immediately. Towards the end of that time, they JB> show a reluctance to being charged and when the indicator does show a JB> full charge, they `run down' AWFULLY fast -- Some battery types (NiCad for example) do not do well if you partially discharge then recharge. In time the battery "forgets" that it has the unused capacity. Say you discharge it half way each day then recharge, after some number of cycles the battery only thinks it has about 1/2 the amp-hr capacity of its initial rating. Might be worthwhile to contact the battery manufacturer to see if the batteries you are using exhibit this characteristic, and if they do, what can be done to overcome the problem. Perhaps occasionally deep discharging to some level followed by a full charge will help refresh the battery's memory as to its capacity. I don't know if this is the situation in your case, but might be worth a call or letter to your battery manufacturer. You wouldn't need to gain much battery life to more than pay for the call. Hope you find an answer. --- msged 2.07 * Origin: Cuckoo's Nest, Hudson, NH : SDN/SDS HST/v32b (1:132/119.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6166 9-12-91 10:45pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Scott Parks To: Don Kulha Re: Edison's Medicine Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > Walk a little lighter on this planet! > Sound advice friend. While this doesn't *exactly* fall > under the heading of this echo's topics it relates to the > type of sustainable systems approach alternative energy > relates to. On one hand I do feel guilty sometimes knowing > what it takes to build the semiconductors that we have in our > computers...hopefully they're put to good use such as we're > doing with this echo in trying to make a difference. Well i figure it fits into the philosophy of "sustainable Earth" and as many of us that live in the more popular areas of this country know, the cost of "real-estate" is forcing philosophy on us. To have access to 5 or 20 acres these days is a real luxury and .... alot of the "real learning" about projects comes from "hands on". - Hard to build a Wind-Machine ontop of your Condo - BTW .... Has anyone done well at using a vertical axis wind-machine for minimal amounts of power or "water warming". Scott --- * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6167 9-15-91 07:31am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: Condo Retrofit Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > and as many of us that live in the more popular areas of this > country know, the cost of "real-estate" is forcing philosophy > on us. To have access to 5 or 20 acres these days is a real > luxury and .... alot of the "real learning" about projects > comes > from "hands on". > > - Hard to build a Wind-Machine ontop of your Condo - > Excellent point Scott. The condo homeowners association would likely complain if someones condo started to sprout PV panels on the roof, a pelton wheel turbine on the downspout, water heating panels on the side and a 60 foot tall 10kW wind plant on the patio (grin). I had not thought about that situation frankly, guess you could chalk it up to tunnel-vision. Am sure there's somethings one could do. I had some friends in Oakland CA who lived in an apartment who did a couple interesting things (It helped that they lived in the top of a funky old building with an absentee landlord who didn't give a shit). They added some solar water heating panels on the flat roof which was easy since there were some old black painted water heater tanks up there which had at one time been plumbed into their water heater as a sort of preheater. The old tanks had been there over 40 years and was part of someone's old solar water preheater. They also built a solar air heater and hung it out a south facing window; it collected a fair amount of heat to cut down their heating load a bit (it probably would have sufficed to heat a room during the day anyway). They were doing this 15 years ago before they moved back to Wyoming. As much fun as actually generating your power (or some of it) is I'd imagine that the condo dweller would probably do best to put most of their energy into conservation. Super efficient lighting, water heater blankets, programable thermostats, a point-of-use water heater for the kitchen, window glazing, etc. would be practical and benefical. They might also look into an electric vehicle if their situation (necessary commute mileage, recharge power availability) would allow it. Co-generation or waste heat recycling could also be a part of the picture. They could run a computer (so they could take part in this echo and others) and use the waste heat the fan rejects to help warm the place (...grin). Other folks here may be able to come up with other ideas. Good observation Scott, it makes for an interesting exercise which is potentially useful. DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6168 9-15-91 08:11am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Da Rules... Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ According to echo policy the moderator of a conference is periodically supposed to post the rules of their conference (sigh). Since we don't want to endanger our backbone status I guess I should make a cut at establishing some.... The Rules for the HOMEPOWR Echo 1. Be niether annoying nor too easily annoyed. Remember that online conversations lack some of the visual body language clues that face to face conversations do. 2. Post no private messages to the echo. These will be bounced around just like normal messages wasting money for the participating sysops who can read it anyway. 3. Please stick to the topics of the conference. Discussion which relates to the larger field of sustainable systems that benefit the earth and it's dwellers are allowed. 4. Please limit debate on political issues as opposed to technical one's which is okay. Debate is the keyword here. Personal attacks or flaming are discouraged. Okay, that's enough for now. I'll clean these up and ponder them a while so they can be reposted periodically. The forms have been observed.....DCK, Moderator HOMEPOWR --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6169 9-15-91 10:47am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: gordon green Re: re: deep cycle batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ No, Jim's batteries are conventional lead-acid deep-cycle batteries. He's just plain wearing them out. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6170 9-15-91 10:49am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Don Kulha Re: re: Condo Retrofit Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ RE: waste heat recycling I have the heating vent in my computer lab sealed off. Within a few minutes of booting up in the morning, my 386-20 + monitor wrms the room up adequately in all weather. By evening, the room is often uncomfortably warm, even in winter. I often open the window to let some heat out! (...'course, I am one warm blooded fellow...my favorite temperature range is 55-65 F.) --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6171 9-15-91 10:52am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: ALL Re: new lighting technology Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ New Lamp Design Philips Lighting has developed a new kind of lamp that is as efficient as flourescent lamps, but that lasts up to 60,000 hours. The lamp is known as an "induction lamp." A high frequency current (2.65 Mhz) is induced into a low-pressure mercury vapor gas by means of an induction coil. The current excites the gas to produce UV, which is then converted to visible light by phosphors identical to those used in current flourescent lamps. The lamps went on sale in Europe this September, and should be available in the U.S. by late 1992. The name of the product is the "Induction QL." Philips Lighting, in Somerset, N.J., claims that at 60,000 hours, the lamp will be degraded by approximately 30% (which means that it may remain useful much longer). Apparently, the lamp is not easily retro-fittable, as it's only source of power is the 2.65 Mhz RF required by the induction coil. It is being marketed primarily into the commercial lighting arena. - based on an article on p57 of the September issue of "Popular Science." --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6172 9-15-91 12:08pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 1 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ THE POWER OF PERSONAL RESOURCEFULNESS by Wayne Phillips The year was 1928 and the place was a small farm at the upper end of Coonhollow, a watershed near Sublimity, Oregon, named for its raccoon population. Leonard T. Phillips, the tenth child of the eleven children of Riley Polk and Abigail Rice Phillips, then 35 years of age, still resided with his parents. An Albino with an immense crop of bright white hair, he could see little through great thick spectacles. His eyes lacked the heavy pigmentation that surrounds the normal pupil and light diffused in uncontrollably. His poor vision led to poor progress in school. The school he attended was a one-room, one-teacher affair of perhaps fifteen students altogether. Some of them were his own brothers and sisters. He was big and strong but painfully shy in childhood. He succeeded in passing "The Fifth Reader" in his formal schooling but four of his sisters became school teachers and another became a city librarian. They understood that behind the visual and emotional handicaps there resided an intellectual giant. To read, his nose rubbed the paper and his head shook as his eyes danced rapidly forth and back over a narrow interval that inched slowly along line by line. When the reading became particularly difficult, his glasses were shoved up to hang as though discarded in his bramblebush of hair and the paper was brought still closer to his eyes. Despite Leonard's handicaps and with his sisters' help he learned to play the pedal organ, the violin, the country fiddle, the banjo, guitar and harmonica with such power and perfection that he was always in demand to play. He provided instrumental and vocal music for any party, picnic, dance, or rally within miles of his parents' farm. This tremendous demand for his musical services forced him out of his childhood shyness to some extent but he remained a gentle recluse all of his life. His memory was astounding. He could read an epic poem once and recite great portions of it from memory long after. Once, when challenged, he is reported to have recited all of "Snowbound" flawlessly. I can still recall with overwhelming nostalgia his whiskey baritone sweetly reciting "Lady of the Lake" to violin music of his own making. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6173 9-15-91 12:09pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 2 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In the 'teens of 1900, Leonard Phillips added popular science to his reading. In 1922 or 1923 he built one of the first (quite possibly the very first) radios in Oregon. That radio's appetite for electricity could be satisfied only briefly by "Hot Shot" batteries. These batteries were of the dry-cell type. They were expensive and the radio played (for a gathering) at any time a transmitter was "on the air." Visitors coming from afar to hear the radio brought news of neighbors who had purchased electric plants. That news was electrifying! An electric plant would make possible another, much more powerful radio. Installed in 1925 or 1926, all that I now recall of the electric plant, a Delco, was a small shed full of glass-shelled batteries. These batteries were charged by a generator driven by a small one-cylinder engine. When running, the engine continued to run until one battery equipped with a hydrometer was fully charged. The rising hydrometer at that point tripped a switch to open the generator charging circuit and shut the engine down. As the battery bank discharged into the continuing load, the same hydrometer fell to a lower limit closing a switch that recoupled the batteries to the engine's generator. The generator, now acting as a motor, used some of the remaining stored power of the batteries to crank, and thus restart, the engine. There were flaws in the system. If the engine stopped because it was out of fuel, the hydrometer would ultimately tell it to restart. Without fuel it couldn't start and the fruitless cranking rapidly depleted the remaining energy of the battery bank. Then, in the dark (always in the dark because that's when the engine ran most of the time), in a rainstorm, or fresh snowfall it was necessary to visit the shed with a coal oil lantern, refill the tank and hand crank the stubborn engine back to life. This flaw, and others leading to frequent shutdowns, led Leonard Phillips to build an overshot waterwheel of the old-mill type on the North Fork of Mill Creek just upstream from Coonhollow Falls. That waterwheel drove a Dodge automobile generator revised by him to produce 32 Volts DC for replacement of the engine, really as a supplement to the engine charging the battery bank. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6174 9-15-91 12:10pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 3 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ By 1928, the date of the beginning of this anecdote, the precursors of today's electric appliances were reaching rural American in 32-volt DC versions for use with Delco plants. Curling irons, waffle irons, electric irons for the laundry, electric washing machines, electric outdoor lights, sewing machines, electrically driven grain mills, and other devices such as the electrically driven cream separator and chick hatcher, soon passed from the status of luxury or curiosity items to the status of necessities. The combined efforts of the old-mill style waterwheel and the engine could not satisfy the load. Improvement was needed! The North Fork of Mill Creek, originating a mile or two upstream from Riley Polk Phillip's place, drops gently about 30 feet in elevation as it crosses that farm and then drops abruptly an additional 30 feet at Coonhollow Falls just before it leaves the farm. A modest stream of 50 or 60 gallons per minute in mid-August, it is a raging torrent of 100 second-feet in March as the snows melt and spring rains fall. Uncle Len had by this time, and with the help of his sisters, acquired quite a library on the emerging technology of electricity. He owned a complete set of that early authority, The Hawkins Electrical Handbook Series. Tacky tomes all, they promised the greatest of revelations, new comfort and other advances all through the good offices of electricity. He also now knew about waterwheels other than the old-mill type and correctly concluded that he could utilize a Pelton wheel beneath the falls. With characteristic directness, he felled two tall fir trees of 20-inch diameter at a point some distance above the falls and dragged them by horse team downstream and over the falls so that their butts lodged twenty feet from the face of the falls while their tops rested on the crest of the falls. With a hand axe he clambered up and down these logs or trunks chopping away limbs and peeling off the bark. With the two trunks lying about 4 feet apart, he nailed short 2 x 4 timbers across both, creating a gaint ladder with 2 x 4 rungs at one-foot intervals. Searching for pipe to lead the water down the ladder to the waterwheel he learned that the city of Oregon City was replacing all of its wooden water mains with new cast iron mains. He acquired, free, several lengths of these old wooden mains, redwood stave tubes spirally bound by steel wire, of about one-foot diameter and used them to lead the water from a small dam above the falls (a dam just deep enough to cover the entrance to the pipe--a feature that provided nearly steady flow and fixed head since the excess simply ran over the top of the dam) downstream to the crest of the falls thence down the gaint ladder to a nozzle of about 2-inch diameter delivering water to the wheel. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6175 9-15-91 12:11pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old Ae 4 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ This much of the project completed by a person blind by today's legal standards. This is enough to inspire the title of this tale but there is much still to relate. Unable to buy a Pelton (impulse) turbine, Leonard built his own. To build it, he started with a worn-out 4-cylinder engine from an early automobile or tractor. This engine had a huge flywheel 2 feet in diameter with a face width of 4 inches and a rim thickness of at least 1 inch. He removed the pistons and head from the engine, placed the engine upside down upon the ground and poured a fair sized pad of concrete around it; the head bolt studs and nuts served to anchor the engine block to the concrete. He then cut 4-inch long segments of U channel from an old automobile frame and bolted these to the flywheel. Note that he did not have one of today's marvelous electric hand drills. All of these holes through the rim of the flywheel he drilled laboriously with a hand brace and bit. The engine's oil pan he left in place to protect the crank and bearings of the engine. He filled the cylinders and crank space with enough oil so that the crank splashed into this oil, the splashed oil serving to keep filled small pockets he'd provided above each bearing and which by virtue of small drilled passages continuously fed oil to each bearing. On the end of the crankshaft opposite from the flywheel, he mounted a large flat-belt pulley which drove a smaller pulley on the intermediate shaft. A large two-groove V-belt pulley on the opposite end of the intermediate shaft then drove the small double V-groove pulley on the generator. This arrangement served to step up the speed of the generator above that of the turbine wheel. Total hydraulic head on the turbine nozzle was perhaps 35 feet with a resultant nozzle water velocity of approximately 47 fps. This nozzle velocity required a bucket velocity on the turbine of 24 fps for maximum power extraction. To provide a 24 fps bucket velocity on a wheel of 2-foot diameter required 230 rpm. The belts and pulleys increased this speed to nearly 2000 rpm from the generator, an increase of approximately 9 to 1 or 3 to 1 in each of the pulley sets. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6176 9-15-91 12:11pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 5 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The generator, its particulars now long lost, had an output of perhaps 2 or 3 kW. and was contrived by him with typical ingenuity. He revised or rewound a 110-volt industrial DC motor to function as a generator producing 32 volts DC. The Dodge automobile generator from the old overshot wheel plant upstream returned to service. Driven by another set of pulleys from the intermediate shaft, it now furnished exciter current for the big new generator. We might wonder why he'd not purchased an appropriate generator to begin with but his parents farm was never productive of much but progeny and the great depression of 1929 had now struck. The 110-volt DC motor he'd started with had gone to the junkyard with many others as the early DC electrical utility systems gave way to 60-cycle AC systems. He needed 32 volts DC to avoid replacement of all of his electrical appliances and lights previously driven by the Delco plant. The resulting system served the farm from 1930 to 1947. In 1947 the REA completed the last leg of a power line whose construction had started before World War II but had not yet reached the upper end of Coonhollow when the war's demand for copper stopped its progress. Other than the human energy of its builder, the system had cost nothing; a capital outlay of perhaps $100. It ran with but few outages for 17 years. The system had its shortcomings, of course. On one occasion it was stopped by the body of a large water rodent lodged in the turbine nozzle. In 1935 it was shut down for two or three weeks by ice formed in an unusually tough winter. Controls were rudimentary. A steel wire, running from a lever and notched sector mounted on a porch post at the house, passed over pulleys on his power line poles to a head gate at the dam for start up and shut down. A Big rheostat at the power house permitted manual adjustment of exciter current and system voltage. A trembly voltmeter and ammeter on the back porch at the house displayed the system performance. Generator regulation was so poor that when a significant part of the load was removed, the voltage would rise to such an extent that all remaining lamps burned out. To prevent the unwise from causing such a catastrophe, he simply removed or disabled enough light switches so that a stabilizing base load remained "on" at all times. This led to the making of new acquaintances as strangers of good intent stopped to inform him that his Delco plant was still "on" in broad daylight! --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6177 9-15-91 12:12pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: Old AE 6 of 6 Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ During most summers the creek flow would dwindle to the point that the penstock could no longer be kept full. When this happened, the "head" on the turbine could no longer maintain the required generator speed and a month or more of shutdown was imposed. Fortunately, these shutdowns coincided with the summer's long days when less evening illumination was required. He found too that he could postpone the summer shutdowns by inserting a smaller nozzle inside the regular nozzle at the turbine. The result of this nozzle reduction was to keep the penstock full at a lower flow rate. A full penstock provided the head necessary for normal water velocity at the turbine. The turbine and generator could thus run at the required speed but the load it could serve was reduced to one or two lamps and the radio. The first good rain of the fall was cause for celebration as the lights went on again all over the farm. If we were to reckon the benefits of the plant at today's energy prices, we might conclude that it had earned (.05$/kW./Hr.) (2kW output) (10 months operation per year) (720 Hrs./Mo.) (17 years) =$12,240. This is not a great deal of money by today's standards but it was a fine return on the original $100. It also earned for him a small place in the history of Coonhollow and monumental stature in the eyes of one of his nephews. Courtesy of and Copyright by Home Power Magazine POB 130 Hornbrook CA 96044, Issue #3, 1989 --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6178 9-15-91 3:57pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Don Kulha Re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Conspiricy? What? Neither you nor what you post idicates anything about conspiricy? HuH? ............................. Well anyway, about the panels..and installations..the statement I am making is simply that many installations have excessive hardware. Hardware that is sold to gullible public for money that could be used to (for example) buy larger guage wire. Again, voltage regulators on small systems are a waste of power and money. Diodes on small systems are similarly a waste of power and money. Both are a source of poor connections, which we discussed earlier. --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6179 9-15-91 4:07pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JD>I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives JD>(which is what you're describing). Their advantage is JD>flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a mechanical JD>standpoint, and the speed control of the driven element while JD>having a constant-speed power source is great. However, JD>efficiency is not their strong suit. You pay dearly in heat JD>(read: power) loss for this flexibility. Mind you, it's a JD>small price to pay when you need that flexibility, but it JD>wouldn't be too nice for a wind system. Are you saying - the output of a hydrostatic drive is a shaft turning at a constant speed while the input is (from windmill) is varying? And of course you mention power loss. This seems to be what you are saying. So can you field these two questions? 1.How much power loss, more or less..50% - 75% - 80% ?? and 2.For an input shaft speed of 100 RPM + or - 50 RPM then what would the output shaft speed of a hydrostatic (motor)(drive)(coupler) be and how much would it vary? Could we get within a percent or two of a steady shaft speed, even though the shaft had a varing load on it? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6180 9-16-91 09:15am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ On the other hand, Terry, as Don points out, if you have to feed power down a 300 ft deep well, you have an irreducible 600 feet of conductor to deal with. Given that well casings are generally limited in diameter, and there has to be room for the water pipe, the conductor, and air, accepting a voltage loss may be inescapable, thereby making the 44 cell panels a necessity. Since this is what the original article stated in the first place, that there are OCCASIONS where I2R losses will simply have to be accepted, I fail to comprehend the vitriol of your original post, or the nature of your second post, on this subject. Also keep in mind that the minimalist approach is really only appropriate here for people who have sufficient technical expertise to understand their installation, and to properly manage it in a manual fashion. For many people who haven't the technical background, the additional expense and small loss in efficiency may make it possible for them to use AE, where otherwise they couldn't. Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me. You, Don and I could probably manage a PV system without the niceties on a manual basis forever with little strain. Could my mother? I doubt it. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6181 9-14-91 1:36pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Byron Arnao To: All Re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Recently on one of technology show on TDC (either beyond 2000 or such) there was a feature about batteries that could be refilled. This sounds like the answer to todays most pressing problems with electric cars ... is it? It would seem that if such a battery were avialable that you could drive up to your local filling station have your "battery fluid" replaced with some new "charged fluid". Does anyone have additional information on this. --- D'Bridge 1.30/002762 * Origin: EarthNet Environmental Information Service. (1:107/215) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6182 9-14-91 11:14pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Scott Parks To: Don Kulha Re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a msg to All <01 Sep 1991 10:05>, Don Kulha wrote: DK> clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some t-shirts and DK> doing some research on a tracking concentrating solar-thermal $14.95 ... Home Power Echo T-Shirts. $1495.00 ... concurrently --- Msged/Q 1.52/b * Origin: The HELIX | NW Environment | HST*DS | (206)782-3365 (1:343/74) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6183 9-17-91 07:32am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Byron Arnao Re: re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > Recently on one of technology show on TDC (either beyond > 2000 or such) > there was a feature about batteries that could be refilled. > This > sounds like the answer to todays most pressing problems with > electric > cars ... is it? > I know of a couple companies working on this, including Luz International in Los Angeles. My feeling is that I hope it doesn't come down to that. Nobody likes to have to visit the service station and I'd like to see them be extinct. Certainly as long as their are vehicles they'll have to be serviced but I see "refilling" stations as an additional source of pollutants and potential chemical spills. I want batteries to be totally sealed until they are removed from the vehicle to be rebuilt or recycled. Nissan's recent announcement of a vehicle with 100 mile range that accepts a full charge in 30 minutes or a 60% charge in 15 minutes is more to my liking. It's still experimental but might see the market in 2 years.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6184 9-17-91 07:43am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Scott Parks Re: re: Progress/Mini-Vacation Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > > DK> clearing my shop to make room to screen-print some > t-shirts and > > $14.95 ... Home Power Echo T-Shirts. > Naw, It's not in the cards at this time. It might not be a bad idea to help me defer costs but it'll have to wait until after I print some for my BBS and satisfy my regular customers. I will be printing some for my friends at Home Power magazine but those will be available only through them. At this point all good durable screen printing inks for textiles require a lot of heat to properly cure them so they're washable. One of these days I hope to build a solar dryer for them so I can do without using the 1500 watt dryer I currently use. Should be very doable.....DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6185 9-17-91 08:17am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Byron Arnao Re: re: Refillable Batteries Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I am not familiar with all of the technologies that fall into this category, but the "aluminum-air" cell was one. If you want to learn more about it, go to Toys-R(backwards)-Us. They sell a small science project that includes an aluminum-air cell experiment. It is less than $10. I suspect (consiparcy theories?) that like many technologies which have been developed that might have freed us from the burning of petroleum products for fuel, this one was bought and buried by the petroleum industry. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6186 9-17-91 1:20pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: ALL Re: AE vendor Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I have come across the following. I have no connection with this organization,except as a recipient of their catalogs: Dallas Enterprises P.O. Box 360851 Milpitas, CA 95036 1-800-345-4913 On the front page of their most recent catalog (received today) is a blurb for the following: Solar City Fair 1991 in Downtown San Jose Saturday, October 15, 1991 Dallas Enterprises will be at booth #27. You might call them at (408) 294-5848 for more information on this AE exhibit/fair. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6187 9-17-91 03:27am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK> Also keep in mind that the minimalist approach is really TK>only appropriate here for people who have sufficient TK>technical expertise to understand their installation, and to TK>properly manage it in a manual fashion. For many people who TK>haven't the technical background, the additional expense and TK>small loss in efficiency may make it possible for them to use TK>AE, where otherwise they couldn't. Seems like a reasonable TK>trade-off to me. Isn't that always the way of it . . people pay for technical expertise? By the way...what public office will you be running for? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6188 9-17-91 03:30am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ TK>Efficiency is, to put it politely, not the strong point here. TK> TK> Hydrostatic motors are used where large quantities of Exactly my question, almost exacly as I asked it! How efficient is a typical hydrostatic motor/converter ? 10% losses? 50%?? --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6189 9-17-91 03:49am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Terry Olsen To: Tom Keller Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I got a catalogue today that has some reconditioned panels from a solor power plant. $499 each, 100 watts guarenteed. Nice ! --- * Origin: End of the World! Fortuna, CA. HST (707) 725-5785 (1:125/12) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6190 9-19-91 08:44am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I assume by your comment that you found my reply to you "smarmy." I considered a statement of reasonable compromise. Many people have neither the inclination and/or the interest in becoming sufficiently knowldegable about technical matters to make the manual operation of an AE system feasible. "Blue Skying" about how wonderful things would be "if only" is a waste of time, energy and bandwidth. Focusing on the doable, by taking into account the realities of people's behaviour will, in the long term (as well as the short term, IMNSHO) garner better, longer lasting results. The goal is to reduce the dependency upon centralized energy sources, as well as to reduce the environmental impact of the generation and distribution of that energy. If a small reduction in the THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE efficiency of AE systems can or will result in a substantial increase in the number of people willing to install and utilize such systems, why quibble? --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6191 9-19-91 08:49am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Based on what I know about hydrostatic drives (which is, admittedly, very little) I would guess that the efficiencies are much closer to the 40-50% range than to the 80-90% range. I am in reference to the actual power input, as opposed to the theoretical power available form the prime energyÿ source here. I wish I had the time to go to the library any look this one up for you (and me), but I really don't. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6192 9-19-91 08:52am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Tom Keller To: Terry Olsen Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Again, the speed of a hydrostatic is directly related to the volume of fluid/unit of time flowing through the motor. Speed REGULATION is accomplished by controlling flow rates. This involves restriction of fluid flow (which is accomplished by the introduction of some form of resistance). FLEXIBILITY of speed control is available. I don't believe that accuracy is a strong point. You apparently misconstrued an earlier message. Hydrostatic motors are ill-suited to AE applications. If you want to move a bulldozer, you want a hydrostatic motor. If you want to turn a generator, you don't. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6193 9-19-91 10:16pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Tom Keller Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > $5/watt, eh? (OK, OK, $4.99/watt! *SHEESH*) (-: > > Well, I suppose it beats the hell out of the retail > pricing of new panels, but it is still WAY too expensive, in > my opinion. > > I see no valid reason for PV panels to be so expensive. > The technology is established, the initial development costs > of have more than been recouped. > The usual "discount" price on PV's is about $6 a watt ($300 for a 50w panel). I have seen deals on used ones as low as $2.14 but they looked kinda grim. I heard an interview with the head of Siemens Solar R&D who said that for single crystal silicon panels the price might drop 10-20% at some point when the market expands but that was about it. There are some technical developments coming out which seem to indicate $2-3 a watt withing 5 years using other technologies about about the same 12-14% efficency. Amophous PV's are cheap but degrade too fast with use. Efficencies in manufacture (economies of scale, etc.) aren't gonna drive the price down far. It's going to take some subtstanially different technology to do it (....like steam)(grin). DCK P.S.-Went and checked the PO box and the ltest issue of Real Goods Catalog had arrived. They are selling some used panels (ARCO) which sell for $450 per set of 4 (to get enough voltage for battery charging). Each 4 module set puts out 100w so that's $4.50/watt. I think in quantity they come down to $4.30/watt....not too bad. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6194 9-19-91 10:22pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: Joel Kerr Re: Many Thanks! Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hi Joel.....Many thanks for sending the data on concentrator mirrors. I think it will be tremendously helpful. Haven't had a chance to sift through it all yet but there are some gems there. I am curious as to the source for the scientific paper. It looks very good and I may want to look up some of the stuff in other chapters they allude to. There are some great librarys in Nor Cal and I'm usually able to find about anything. Again, Thanks... DCK --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6195 9-19-91 10:33pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Don Kulha To: All Re: The Bookworm arises Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The last few days I've been immersed in study. First at the Patent library doing a search, at then at the Cal Berkley Engineering library and our local one. After that I'm trying to assimilate the volumes of data I got, understand it, and follow up the hints and specifics.I was doing research on this solar-thermal steam project I've got in mind and found a wealth of info. It also generated a wealth of new questions and avenues of needed investigation. Oh well, you win some and you win some, but nobody ever said winning was easy. I'm trying hard to track down the most efficient configuration of the turbine we intend to build and it hasn't been easy. I expect to get some information in the next week which will shed some light on it. The basic question delaying our actually building a turbine is our rotor configuration. To get high efficency it looks very important to keep flow in the disc region laminar and I'm trying to come to grips with that and what it means. Another minor complication is a growing realization (as our steam power research progresses) that to gain efficency we probably need to run a second turbine stage running off the reheated exhaust of the first stage with it's exhaust in turn routed to a heat exchanger to heat feed water. I'm beginning to understand the cycles used in steam energy systems. What I haven't been able to find is a good comprehensive explanation of steam power systems. If anyone can refer me to one it would be appreciated. Our research has indicated possible turbine efficencies greater than 50% which will make this doable if all the other balls can be juggled correctly. I'll keep you posted.....DCK P.S.-The efficencies for these disk turbines when built in a simple configuration and used was water pumps is in the 20%-25% range. I don't know how that compares to the Francis type turbines for hydropower but I'd imagine it's close. --- ConfMail V3.31 * Origin: HOMEPOWR The Homemade Energy Echo (707)545-0746 HST/V.32b (1:125/7) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6196 9-16-91 10:02pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Joel Kerr To: Don Kuhla Re: "care package" Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ hi there don did u get he package i sent to u? if further info is required please leave a message. Joel Kerr --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6197 9-18-91 5:49pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Don Kulha Re: Re: Hydro Power Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-11-91 23:00> Don Kulha wrote: DK> > I know I saw a special on Tesla on PBS, and the pump DK> > was similar was demonstrated using a small gas engine. DK> the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. I may be able to track that one down... I will have to look into it. DK> building all these Tesla style pumps, most likely including DK> the pump you saw on PBS (I really wish I'd seen that), C.R. DK> Possell, called me out of the blue today! I wasn't home Wow! People are actually building and using them commercially? I would like to look at that catalogue... would you pass along their address? Thanks, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6198 9-18-91 5:55pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Jim Dunmyer Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-10-91 20:32> Jim Dunmyer wrote: JD> > Has anyone ever done any research where a hydralic pump JD> > is mounted to the prop shaft? I know this may introduce JD> Hydraulic systems use "accumulators" which are far more JD> than just a pressure tank, and insignificant amounts of JD> energy can be stored practically in an accumulator. Oh well... I thought it was a good idea.... JD> I have had several machines that used HydroStatic drives JD> (which is what you're describing). Their advantage is JD> flexibility: The drive line is much simpler from a JD> mechanical standpoint, and the speed control of the driven JD> element while having a constant-speed power source is JD> great. However, efficiency is not their strong suit. You Then, it does not sound like it would be applicable to a wind system; the last thing you need is a unit which absorbs the little energy might be available from the gusts, and wastes it the rest of the time... See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6199 9-18-91 6:00pm Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Rich Jensen To: Gale Barrows Re: Re: wind generator Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In a message to Rich Jensen <09-14-91 15:59> Gale Barrows wrote: GB> Some of the old wind generators from the 1930's and 1940's GB> when they were popular and common used a variable pitch GB> blade that helped maintain a constant blade speed. The GB> mechanism was fairly complicated yet simple once you GB> understood it. It seems that many of todays makers are GB> attempting to re-invent the wheel with their designs. In Well, re-inventing the wheel is a pretty popular idea these days!!! It seems you can take anything and make it complicated... I would think it would be possible to come up with a simple variable pitch control based on a set of fly-weights which would be simple to make and to understand... Look at how simple the mechanical advance section of an automotive distributor actually is once you understand how it works... See ya, Rich --- QuickBBS 2.64, The Reservation BBS * Origin: Home of the Indian_Affairs echo (203)742-7205, FIDO (1:327/999) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6200 9-19-91 07:55am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Bob Campbell To: Terry Olsen Re: re: 44 Cell Panels Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ > I got a catalogue today that has some > reconditioned panels from > a solor power plant. $499 each, 100 watts > guarenteed. Nice ! What's the Name and Number? --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Msg#: 6201 9-19-91 08:23am Area: Home Power [Echo] From: Bob Campbell To: All Re: Solar for Cooler Attr: ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ I cool my house with a 1/2 HP cooler. During the On Peak Hours between Noon and 6 PM I pay $0.33 per KWH. This is when I need the cooler the most and also when I receive the most potential photo-voltaic energy. How much would it cost to build a solar panel system specifically for this one 1/2 HP cooler? I assume that a battery storage and voltage converter would still be required even though I mainly want to use the electricity during the time that the sun is available. But if there are other alternatives I'd be open to them too. --- OPMED 3.00 * Origin: Flashpoint, Dive Safely - First Time, Feet First . (1:119/911.1) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------