From delp@epb5.lbl.gov Wed May 31 22:14:11 EDT 1995
Article: 9 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!epb5.lbl.gov!delp
From: delp@epb5.lbl.gov (Woody Delp)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 31 May 1995 20:08:47 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <3qiicf$e4s@overload.lbl.gov>
References: <3qieqg$n6a@news.panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: epb5.lbl.gov

A service tech. can install a "hard-start kit"
which is a relay/capacitor combo to give the compress.
an added "kick" during start-up....might do the trick
MUCH cheaper than a new compress.
-- 
Woody Delp

"Question authority....and the Authorities will question you"


From randyw@on-ramp.ior.com Wed May 31 22:14:44 EDT 1995
Article: 7 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!ames!olivea!express.ior.com!usenet
From: randyw@on-ramp.ior.com (Randy Wilkinson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Introduction to the FAQ for sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:20:50 GMT
Organization: Spokane, Washington
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Congrats everybody! 

A hearty THANK YOU to Lynnette for making this group a reality! 

I'm Randy Wilkinson.  I have volunteered to compile the FAQ
document for the proposed group 'sci.engr.heat-vent-ac'. 

The next post in this group is the Current version of the FAQ document for
the new group 'sci.engr.heat-vent-ac'.   I would appreciate any suggestion
>from  anyone in this group regarding the contents of the FAQ list.  

Randy Wilkinson





From randyw@on-ramp.ior.com Wed May 31 22:16:31 EDT 1995
Article: 8 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!ames!olivea!express.ior.com!usenet
From: randyw@on-ramp.ior.com (Randy Wilkinson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: FAQ list for sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:28:53 GMT
Organization: Spokane, Washington
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         *********************************************************
                                     
                   HVAC Frequently Asked Questions List
                           sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
                                     
         *********************************************************
                                     
                        Last-modified: May. 31,1995
                                     
              Posting-Frequency: approximately every 14 days
                                     
     Currently Maintained by: Randy Wilkinson (randyw@on-ramp.ior.com)
                                     
                                     
                                     
------------------------------

Subject: This Document

The purpose of this document is to answer the most commonly asked questions
of the group.  Internet users new to this group should read this document
prior to posting questions.  Your question may have already been asked and
answered.  You may not find answers to certain questions if those questions
are not pertaining to charter issues, even if they are commonly asked.

This document will be posted to the newsgroup every 2 weeks or so.  I will
also post it to the group on request.  You may also get this document from
the anonymous FTP site `ftp.ior.com' in the `/usr/hvac/' directory.  The
file `HVAC_FAQ.DOC' is Word for Windows document that supports Word's
outline feature.  The file called `HVAC_FAQ.TXT' is an plain ASCII version.

Questions compiled here were mostly compiled from discussion in the group.
If you have suggestions for items to be added to the FAQ, or comments on
the answers given, please email your suggestions to me at the address
above.  I appreciate any suggestions you may have.

------------------------------

Subject: Group Status

The group "alt.hvac" was created in January 1995 as a temporary place for
people interested in heating, ventilating and air conditioning to share
information until an "official" newsgroup can be voted on and created.

On May 23, 1995, the vote was passed and the group `sci.engr.heat-vent-ac'
was created.  The new group was created on May 30, 1995.



------------------------------

Subject: Charter

Authors: Doug Grittani <grittani@wimsey.com>, Lynnette Edrington
<EDRN@DLEP1.itg.ti.com, and William Delp, PhD <delp@epb1.lbl.gov>

This unmoderated group is for discussion of Heating, Ventilating, Air
Conditioning (HVAC) and Refrigeration issues.  Discussion from the
viewpoint of researchers, engineers and technicians involved in the
research, design, specification, control, construction, operation and
maintenance of HVAC topics is encouraged. The following topics are
considered appropriate for technical discussion, but are not limited to the
following :

- State-of-the-art research issues in relation to current practices
  
- Discussion of ASHRAE recommendations
  
- Psychrometrics
  
- Desiccant/adsorber technologies
  
- The design, construction, operation and management of HVAC and
  refrigeration systems for buildings and other environments
  
- New sensor technology (eg, silicon vs. nickel, RH sensors)
  
- All aspects of HVAC equipment: air side and water side, control systems,
  new technologies and management
  
- Special environments: eg. Cleanrooms, hazardous environments
  
- Comfort conditions: temperature/humidity/air quality
  
- Technical solutions to common problems
  
- Training and educational issues
  
- Safety and OSHA issues as relating to HVAC, government regulations
  
- Green issues (HCFC/CFC usage, Greenhouse effects)
  
- Relative merits of computer simulation strategies
  
- Energy & IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) audits
  
- Audit tools: ultrasound, thermography, tracer gas
  
- Building science issues
  
The HVAC discipline covers a very broad spectrum of topics, from the design
of the humble domestic heating system, to sophisticated close control
climates for industrial processes or medical facilities.  Many of these
topics are treated by out-dated approaches.  This group encourages the
cross-fertilization of ideas and concepts from all corners of the
profession, from the academic researcher to the field engineer.

Discussion regarding merits of various manufacturer's products and services
is discouraged, in the interest of avoiding sales pitches couched as
discussion.  Technical help questions regarding various products are
encouraged, but should be answered via email.

Original Newsgroup Sponsor: Lynnette EDRN@DLEP1.itg.ti.com


------------------------------

Subject: Netiquette for group sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

Please read the appropriate articles in the newsgroup
'news.announce.newusers'  Doing so will probably answer most of your
general questions regarding use of Usenet newsgroups.

Please review the charter as outlined above.  Advertising and blatant
commercialism is frowned upon.  Although this is an unmoderated group and
no controls or persons can prevent advertising or commercialism, prepare to
be flamed if you do not heed this advice.  The more your post looks like an
ad, the more flames you will get.  See the above newuser group as
reference. THE PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP IS TO DISCUSS TECHNICAL ISSUES AND
SHARE INFORMATION.  There are other groups for the purpose of buying and
selling goods and services. The group is a place to meet and talk about
Charter issues.

Equipment for sale ads and want to buy ads are discouraged here.  Help
wanted and job wanted ads are not discouraged by private parties but are
discouraged by "headhunters" or employment agencies since they are paid
professionals and this is a forum for discussion of technical issues and
people here, for the most part, pay for the privelege of being here.  If
continuous HVAC-related job-postings become a nuisance, they will be
discouraged and thus subject to "flames".  When posting job related
articles, please ask for all responses via email


Product X versus product Y

Questions are not discouraged, but "discussions" on the merit of one
product or another are discouraged.  Why?  Because some vendors have been
known to ask and answer their own questions.  If you read an article that
appears to be obvious commercialism, please respond to persons posting such
articles by email.

If you wish to know where you can get information on a commercial product,
ask for response via email.  Also, be sure to answer such questions via
email. I'm sure no one who answers in the negative will want to be sued for
libel if they feel strongly about it!


Controlling Unwanted posts.

These admonitions were concluded by the consensus of the group.  Future
discussions can change them.  The keeper of this document will adjust them
if the consensus changes it's mind.  For such persons who insist on
ignoring the admonitions outlined here, gently remind them (in case they're
just a newbie who doesn't know any better), by email that the purpose of
the newsgroup is technical discussion and information sharing and not
commercialism.  Please Don't post a follow-up article flaming those
persons.  Doing so will only waste more space in the newsgroup and readers
time.  If you must flame due to repeated violation of the groups' Charter
and FAQ, then please do it by email or in alt.flames.



------------------------------

Subject: Questions and Answers


Q:   What acronyms are commonly used in this group?

A:   These are some of the most common:
     
     HVAC      Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning
     
     ASHRAE    American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air
               Conditioning Engineers
               1791 Tullie Circle, N.E., Atlanta, GA 30329
               Voice: (404) 636-8400
               Facsimile: (404) 321-5478
               
               Customer Service: 1-800-527-4723
     
     RSES      Refrigeration Service Engineers Society
               1666 Rand Road, Des Plaines, IL  60016-3552
               Voice: (312) 297-6464
               Fax: (312) 297-5038
     
     SMACNA    Sheet Metal Contractors National Association
               (Anybody know the address and Phone?)
     
     IAQ       Indoor Air Quality
     
     CFC       Generally refers to Chlorofluorocarbon family of
               refrigerants.  Sometimes called by one manufacturer's
               tradename "Freon"
     
     HCFC      Generally refers to Halogenated Chlorofluorocarbon family of
               refrigerants.  Some of these refrigerants are also called by
               their tradename "Freon"
     
     HFC       Generally refers to Hydrofluorocarbon family of refrigerants
     
     DDC       Direct Digital Control
     
     VFD       Variable Frequency Drive - Electronic speed control for
               motors.
     
     VAV       Variable Air Volume
     
     WC        water column,  common measure of air pressure used in HVAC
          systems
     
     IWC       Inches of water column,  commonly used in the USA

Q:   What is meant by Indoor Air Quality (IAQ)?

A:   In general, IAQ refers to quality of the air inside a building that
     people must occupy.  The following are some factors that might
     constitute poor air quality:
     
      * High levels of carbon dioxide (> 1000 ppm)
      * Harmful airborne bacteria
      * Airborne compounds resulting from manufacturing processes
      * Dust particles
      * Objectionable odors

     For the purposes of this group, IAQ does not generally refer to the
     temperature of, or amount of moisture in, indoor air.

Q:   What are refrigerants?

A:   Fluids used to transport heat.

Q:   Do CFC refrigerants deplete the Earth's atmospheric ozone layer?

A:   Most scientist agree they do.  Many others disagree.  Some CFCs do
     break down ozone more than others.  Some CFCs survive in the
     atmosphere longer than others before breaking down.  Regardless of
     whether or not they do, new laws have been enacted to limit the
     production and venting of CFCs.

Q:   What is being done about CFCs depleting the ozone layer?

A:   Pursuant to the Montreal Protocol, CFC refrigerant production world-
     wide will cease by January 1, 1996.  In the United States, the Clean
     Air Act of 1990 requires CFC production to cease by that date.  New
     refrigerants are currently under development and in production.  There
     are also strict new laws designed to prevent venting of existing CFC
     refrigerants to the atmosphere.  For more information, visit the world
     wide web page `http://piglet.sri.com/CIN/jan-feb94/article01.html'

Q:   Where can I get shareware or freeware for residential heating load
     calculations

A:   Duane Beach, responded:
     BTU ANALYSIS (SHAREWARE VERSION) VERSION 2.3.0sw
     Heating and cooling load calculation software
     By: David W. Ostler, Distributed By:Enchanted Tree Software
     901 Ferndale Blvd, High Point, NC 27262
     BBS support found on: Public Safety BBS, Jamestown, NC
     Access at: (919) 886-8826
     
     Editors Note: Current availability of this program has not been
     verified.  If you can verify its availablity please let me know.

Q:   Can anyone recommend a book covering ______

A:   HVAC fundamentals?
          ASHRAE Handbooks:
          1992 Equipment Volume
          1993 Fundamentals Volume
          1994 Refrigeration Volume
          1995 Applications Volume
     
     Load Calculations?
          ASHRAE Cooling and Heating Load Calculation Manual
     
     Duct Construction and ductwork system design?
          SMACNA Duct construction standards
          SMACNA system design manual
     
     Air Conditioning systems design?
          Carrier systems design manuals (various softcover)
          Trane Air Conditioning Manual
          ASHRAE air-conditioning Systems Design Manual ISBN 1-8834-13-00-1
          Modern Refrigeration and Air Conditioning
     
     Ventilation?
          Industrial Ventilation
     
     Refrigeration?
          Refrigeration Service Engineers Society (RSES) Service
     Application Manual (SAM) has extensive product and technical
     information covering all phases of refrigeration.
          Doolins Troubleshooting Bible

Q:   Is this newsgroup sponsored by ASHRAE?

A:   Definitely not.  Although ASHRAE employees and society members do
     participate in discussions regularly.

Q:   Is there an ASHRAE Web site or ftp site?

A:   Charles R. Miro of ASHRAE responds:
     No, ASHRAE does not presently have a Web site. The Society does have
     an email gateway to the Internet. ASHRAE runs a Bulletin Board System
     that provides email access to the Internet. For information on future
     expansion plans, please contact Efrain Ramirez, ASHRAE Data Processing
     Manager (voice: 404/636-8400; email: efrain@ashrae.com).
     
     To access the BBS in Atlanta, use your modem to dial 404-235-0228
     
     Editors note: You may telnet to the ASHRAE BBS system, use the domain
     name `bbs.ashrae.com'.  It helps if your telnet client software has a
     standard BBS file transfer protocol such as Xmodem or Zmodem.
     

Q:   Are scroll compressors better?

A:   Since they have fewer moving parts, they are said to be more reliable.
     Other advantages are debatable.
     
     Editors note: A scroll compressor uses two spiral shaped blades rather
     than reciprocating pistons to compress the refrigerant in it's hot gas
     state.  The two spiral blades mesh together with close tolerances
     inside a chamber.  Typically one of the two blades remains fixed while
     the other is moved in a circular motion.  This motion causes gas to be
     trapped in a pocket and moves the gas outward in the spiral while the
     pocket gets smaller, thereby compressing the gas.

Q:   What are the typical fan pressures in a residential HVAC installation
     (furnace).

A:   The normal residential HVAC blower is designed for 0.25 to 0.5"wc, but
     this is total static pressure including the coil, filter, heat-
     exchanger, etc.

Q:   Am I required to fix a leaking refrigerant system containing R-22?

A:   Under the current EPA regulations, only if the system contains more
     than 50 lbs of refrigerant.  (Editors note: You would be well advised
     to fix the leak since this refrigerant will become scarce/expensive in
     the coming years.  R-12 will be no longer produced after 1995, R-22
     will be banned in 2020)

Q:   Are there WWW sites relating to HVAC subjects that I can visit?

A:   Yes, there are many.  You can copy an HTML file using your FTP client
     software from `ftp.ior.com' in the `/usr/hvac/' directory.  Get the
     file called `HVAC.HTM'.
     You need to copy it to your machine since I may have to pay extra for
     internet service if you always use if from my provider's server.
     
     After copying that file to your local machine, your can tell your WWW
     browser to open that file.  You will then see many active links to
     other sites.
     
     
     If you have suggestions for additions to be added to the list, send
them to
     the address shown at the bottom of the page.  I will update this list
     periodically.  When I do, I will place the date of the most recent
     update here:
     
     WWW Site list last updated:  May 25, 1995





From turbodog@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu Wed May 31 22:19:23 EDT 1995
Article: 1 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-1-56.ots.utexas.edu!user
From: turbodog@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Eric C. Doan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 01:35:48 +0800
Organization: Building Energy Systems
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <turbodog-3105950135480001@slip-1-56.ots.utexas.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-1-56.ots.utexas.edu



Great!!!  An HVAC news group at last!

-- 
Eric C. Doan
Building Energy Systems
The University of Texas at Austin
turbodog@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu




From matthews@wfu.edu Thu Jun  1 11:05:44 EDT 1995
Article: 13 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.wfu.edu!matthews
From: matthews@wfu.edu (Rick Matthews)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Fan between basement and main floor?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 01:20:45 GMT
Organization: Wake Forest University
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <3qj4ld$3d7@eis.wfunet.wfu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: acg60.wfunet.wfu.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

I have a very well-insulated house with a finished basement whose area
is 75% that of the main floor.  I have separate heat-pumps for
basement and main floor.

Problem: high basement humidity in summer.  The air conditioner in the
basement does not need to run at all, and so I get no moisture removal
>from  the basement.  I would rather not put a dehumidifier in the
basement, because of the difficulty in draining it and the noise.

Question: What do you think of putting a continously running fan
exchanging air between the basement and the main floor?  I would
hope that this would equalize the temperature and humidity on the
two levels.  Will this work?

--
Rick Matthews                     matthews@wfu.edu            Ham radio:
Wake Forest University            910-759-5340   (Voice)      WA4GSP
Winston-Salem, NC 27109-7507      910-759-6142   (FAX)



From heed@karthago.rydnet.lysator.liu.se Thu Jun  1 11:05:45 EDT 1995
Article: 14 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!pipex!sunic!sunic.sunet.se!news.kth.se!news.ifm.liu.se!karthago.rydnet.lysator.liu.se!heed
From: heed@karthago.rydnet.lysator.liu.se (Peter S|derlind)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Cooling for computer hall
Date: 1 Jun 1995 10:57:13 GMT
Lines: 1
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From elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu Thu Jun  1 11:05:46 EDT 1995
Article: 15 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!uunet!gwu.edu!elloyd
From: elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Erik Lloyd)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Please help!
Date: 31 May 1995 00:52:11 GMT
Organization: The George Washington University, Washington DC
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <3qgejr$c6o@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.164.127.252
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

OK! I am no engineer but I do have a problem with my AC!

The thing is, it's stopped blowing the cold air it used to before. I've 
only had it for a week! And when I turn it on I can hear what seems to be 
the thermostat kicking in, but it happens every 20 secs or so, but never 
stays on! 'cept for maybe a second! Gets annoying after a while!

Thanks y'all.

--
  *8)
 elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu


From foe@ornl.gov Thu Jun  1 11:05:47 EDT 1995
Article: 16 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news1.oakland.edu!jobone!ukma!rsg1.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!usenet
From: Bob Forde <foe@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: FAQ list for sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 1 Jun 1995 11:46:52 GMT
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <3qk9bc$k25@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>
References: <3qig3q$vd6@express.ior.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: foe.eng.ornl.gov
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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To: randyw@on-ramp.ior.com

randyw@on-ramp.ior.com (Randy Wilkinson) wrote:
>         *********************************************************
>                                     
>                   HVAC Frequently Asked Questions List
>                           sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
>                                     
>         *********************************************************

>This unmoderated group is for discussion of Heating, Ventilating, Air
>Conditioning (HVAC) and Refrigeration issues.  Discussion from the
>viewpoint of researchers, engineers and technicians involved in the
>research, design, specification, control, construction, operation and
>maintenance of HVAC topics is encouraged. The following topics are
>considered appropriate for technical discussion, but are not limited to the
>following :
>

Could we add the discussion of various computer modeling techniques and 
software?  I regularly use a couple of commercial packages for energy 
analysis and energy conservation projects primarily HVAC in nature.


>     
>     SMACNA    Sheet Metal Contractors National Association
>               (Anybody know the address and Phone?)

                Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning Contractors' National
                Association, Inc.
                4201 LaFayette Center Drive
                Chantilly, Virginia  22022-1230
                (703)803-2980  phone
                (703)803-3732  fax                

                *From HVAC Systems Duct Design book inside cover

>
>Q:   Is there an ASHRAE Web site or ftp site?
>
>A:   Charles R. Miro of ASHRAE responds:
>     No, ASHRAE does not presently have a Web site. The Society does have
>     an email gateway to the Internet. ASHRAE runs a Bulletin Board System
>     that provides email access to the Internet. For information on future
>     expansion plans, please contact Efrain Ramirez, ASHRAE Data Processing
>     Manager (voice: 404/636-8400; email: efrain@ashrae.com).
>     
>     To access the BBS in Atlanta, use your modem to dial 404-235-0228
>     
>     Editors note: You may telnet to the ASHRAE BBS system, use the domain
>     name `bbs.ashrae.com'.  It helps if your telnet client software has a
>     standard BBS file transfer protocol such as Xmodem or Zmodem.
>    
 
ASHRAE also has an ftp site (ftp.ashrae.com) and the WWW page is coming 
soon.  I'll shut up about it now so as not to steal their thunder.  There 
is an ASHRAE Chapter on the net, check out 
http://www.ornl.gov/ORNL/ashrae/ashrae.htm


|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|Bob Forde                             Lockheed Martin Energy Systems|
|foe@ornl.gov                                           Oak Ridge, TN|
|HVAC Engineer                                                    USA|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From TATribble@lbl.gov Thu Jun  1 11:05:48 EDT 1995
Article: 17 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!overload.lbl.gov!b90-tid6.lbl.gov!user
From: TATribble@lbl.gov (Tom Tribble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: OSA Damper Leakage
Followup-To: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 31 May 1995 01:45:02 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <TATribble-300595184658@b90-tid6.lbl.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: b90-tid6.lbl.gov

A number of years ago I read an article in HPAC (or a similar publication)
that described a field survey of OSA dampers and the amount of air leakage
observed (when the dampers were in the closed position) due to missing or
damaged seals, bent or misaligned blades, and inacurately adjusted
linkages.  Now (many years later) when I need a reference of this type, I
can't seem to find ANYTHING on this subject.  If any one has any published
sources for information on this subject, I'd appreciate an E-Mail pointing
me in the right direction.  Thanks for any help.

-- 
 )))*-----*))))    
       \\( )//       
        \| |/       
        // \\       
 TATribble@lbl.gov
    (510) 486-7654


From barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu Jun  1 11:05:49 EDT 1995
Article: 18 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.starnet.net!wupost!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!falcon.cc.ukans.edu!barock
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: It's Up!
Message-ID: <1995Jun1.073526.94184@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
From: barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Brian A. Rock)
Date: 1 Jun 95 07:35:26 CDT
Nntp-Posting-Host: falcon.cc.ukans.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Lines: 10

sci.engr.heat-vent-ac test post.

We're somebody now!

--
Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E.		Voice:  (913) 864-3434
The University of Kansas		Fax:    (913) 864-5099
Architectural Engineering Department	E-mail: barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
Marvin Hall
Lawrence, KS 66045-2222			Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU!


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Jun  1 11:05:51 EDT 1995
Article: 19 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Another post to see if...
Date: 31 May 1995 03:01:44 GMT
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In <3qgdbs$o5o_001@grail407.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) writes:
>We're on-line yet?  Anyone out there  ?
>
>Paul

Yes Paul,  'sci.engr.heat-vent-ac'  now exists.  What brand of champagne
do you prefer?

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov Thu Jun  1 11:05:52 EDT 1995
Article: 20 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov (Doug S. Caprette)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 13:38:50 GMT
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In article <3qj8q2$d2b@news.primenet.com> allds@primenet.com (John Allds) writes:
>oppedahl@patents.com (Carl Oppedahl) wrote:
>
>>	
>>So the air conditioner, a York 3-ton package unit, has stopped working.  The 
                                 ^^^^^

Within the context of AC, what does this mean?  I.e. what is the defintionof a 
'ton' of cooling?

--
dsc@gemini.gsfc.nasa.gov  
 |  Regards,         |   Hughes STX                |    Code 926.9 GSFC        |
 |  Doug Caprette    |   Lanham, Maryland          |    Greenbelt, MD  20771   |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gort, klaatu barrada nikto." -- Klaatu in "The Day The Earth Stood Still"


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug  3 22:43:37 EDT 1995
Article: 36 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Typical Install Costs questions
Date: 2 Jun 1995 03:17:12 -0400
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<KATZMAN@ukcc.uky.edu> wrote:
> 
>Whatever you do, do *NOT* install geothermal heating and cooling. It's
>an expensive rip-off.

YMMV.

>Those systems are difficult to find service for, and they don't last. After
>2 years, our compressor quit. We replaced it twice - $450 plus freight each
>time - and it wouldn't work for more than a month before it "froze up"
>and became worthless again.

A local company who manufacture water-source heat pumps says that this is
a common problem, caused by poor design, something to do with pressures that
are too high. Of course a water-source heat pump could literally "freeze up," 
but that's another design problem...

>Please don't make the same mistake we made. Go with a system that will work.

Seems strange to condemn all forms of geothermal heat because of your 
unfortunate experience.

Nick



From fsmothers@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:38 EDT 1995
Article: 37 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: fsmothers@aol.com (FSmothers)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Typical Install Costs questions
Date: 31 May 1995 12:37:00 -0400
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Brae,

The California Energy Commission calculated the payback for solar domestic
water heating in Fresno, Ca. at about 99 years and has dropped the
concept.

I have investigated it for some apartments in Arizona and the paybacks
were also greater than five years.  You might want to perform a robust
analysis before consideration.  Where we are gas is cheap ($.60 per therm,
steady for some time).

Fred Smothers
fsmothers@aol.com


From fintubi@navier.stanford.edu Thu Aug  3 22:43:39 EDT 1995
Article: 38 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: fintubi@navier.stanford.edu (Bill Urban)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: What's a therm?
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:32:33 -0500
Organization: Stanford University
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Sorry about the elementary question;  I'd RTFM but I don't have any
reference books with the right info.

Judging from my gas bill, a therm seems to be an amount of gas measured by
energy content but sized to be roughly equal to a cubic foot -- they
correct my meter reading (presumably cubic feet) by a factor roughly equal
to one to get therms.

Am I way off here?

Thanks,

Bill

-- 
Bill Urban     fintubi@navier.stanford.edu    (415) 723-0560
High Temperature Gasdynamics Laboratory, Stanford University                        


From a120@Lehigh.EDU Thu Aug  3 22:43:40 EDT 1995
Article: 39 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: a120@Lehigh.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Room Heating
Date: 31 May 1995 15:09:50 -0400
Lines: 30
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IS HALL (ihall@hertz.mech.wits.ac.za) wrote:
: Could anyone give any advice on an efficient way to provide 
: heating for a group of about 80 people, meeting for two hours,
: in a school hall cabaple of seating approximately 400 people.

: Heated Fans/Radiant heating/Electric/Oil heaters.

: Problems seem to be getting heaters close enough to everybody,
: and the fact that a high ceiling/large volume room prohibits rapid heating 
: of the entire air space.

: Any suggestions would be most welcome.

: Iain Hall



Iain

It would seem to me that an electric radiant heating system could be designed
to be suspended overhead of an adequately-sized working area. That way you
would be heating people more than room air. I've lived with ceiling heat for
many years and have been perfectly satisfied. You didn't say whether the
heating system would be permanent or temporary or whether the whole room area
is needed.

Regards

-- 
 Charles J. Sterner, ChE, P.E.


From s-sehlhorst@ds.mc.ti.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:41 EDT 1995
Article: 40 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: s-sehlhorst@ds.mc.ti.com (Scott Sehlhorst)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:23:53
Organization: Texas Instruments Materials and Controls Group
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In article <3qieqg$n6a@news.panix.com> oppedahl@patents.com (Carl Oppedahl) writes:
>So the air conditioner, a York 3-ton package unit, has stopped working.  The 
>blower and fan both work fine, but no cooling.  The compressor, obviously, or 
>loss of coolant, or something like that, is to blame.  It's not the compressor 
>relay, because that same relay turns on the condenser fan, and it spins fine.

>Putting an ammeter and voltmeter on the compressor, what I get is this.  
>Whenever the relay turns on, the compressor gets about 215 volts.  For a brief 
>moment (about 1.5 seconds), I get about 70 amps on the ammeter.  Then it drops 
>to zero.  If I sit and watch for a couple of minutes, I see a continued zero, 
>then the current jumps back to 70 amps, then after 1.5 seconds it drops to 
>zero.

>With normal operation I would expect the current to drop to about 18 amps, not 
>zero.

>I assume that a thermal limit switch is tripping inside the compressor, which 
>would explain the drop to zero current.  The limit switch cycles, hence the 
>brief instants of 70-amp draw.

It certainly sounds like the motor protector is tripping.  I'm surprised it 
takes over 1 second to trip.  The motor protector is probably in series with
the compressor starter coil, and is self heating from the current.  It could
be a thermal safety control, but then I would be surprised that you can get it
to trip in under 2 seconds.  The time constant for thermal controls is usually
much longer than that, and the trip point would be high enough to prevent 
nuisance trips, so I'd put my money on a current limiter.

It could also be a high pressure limit control, but the compressor would have
to start for that to happen, and it should require more than 2 seconds to 
reach trip pressures (probably 375-450 psi) on the discharge line of the
compressor, so we should be able to rule that out too.

If you had a loss of coolant, you would cause the loss of charge pressure
switch to open the circuit to the compressor.  We can rule that out from
your data.  If the charge was partially lost (hypothetically, 10 psi on the
suction line prior to compressor start), then when the compressor kicked in
it would draw down (tripping a hypothetical 7 psi loss of charge limit) and
open the circuit.  Again, we can rule this out because the compressor didn't
start.  

The pressure switches would be controlling contactors for the current levels
shown, not direct line break (70A220VAC is a lot of power for a pressure
switch), so check those contactors for any faults, although they would tend
to fail either open circuit or by tack weld, which doesn't fit your 
description.

It sounds like you might have a locked rotor on your compressor.  Maybe one
of the service experts can tell if rotating it manually and then restarting
will work (like a car alternator) for now.  Maybe there's a dead spot in the
coil, or possibly the starter coil.  The unit could be a capacative start,
and maybe there's a short in the capacitor, causing 70A to flow right past
the windings, until the motor protector opens the circuit.  There are several
different motor schemes, and I don't know which one drives your compressor,
but don't immediately assume it needs to be replaced.  Give the experts on 
this list a chance to respond, they've always impressed me!


>I suppose I have to hire somebody to take out the compressor and put in a new 
>one, right?

>Carl Oppedahl
>Oppedahl & Larson, patent law firm
>oppedahl@patents.com
>watch this space for a web server with frequently asked patent questions and answers

Scott Sehlhorst
Design Engineer
Texas Instruments
Commercial Sensors and Controls
s-sehlhorst@ds.mc.ti.com
speaking of course for myself only and not TI


From mpi@panix.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:42 EDT 1995
Article: 41 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mpi@panix.com (Michael Markov)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: need Heat/AC contractor in NJ
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:03:49 GMT
Organization: Markov Processes, Inc.
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Could you recomend a firm in  NJ ( Millburn area)?
I am replacing my 50 years old oil furnace with a
Lennox/Trane gas furnace and installing a central
AC. 

Thanks.

Michael
mpi@panix.com


From KATZMAN@ukcc.uky.edu Thu Aug  3 22:43:43 EDT 1995
Article: 42 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: KATZMAN@ukcc.uky.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Typical Install Costs questions
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 11:47:47 EDT
Organization: The University of Kentucky
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In article <3qgkku$rsl@no-names.nerdc.ufl.edu>
brae@phys.ufl.edu (Brae Rowe) writes:
 
>So, if we do decide to restore an older home, what would be the
>various options vs costs per 1000 sq.ft. of home?
 
 
Whatever you do, do *NOT* install geothermal heating and cooling. It's
an expensive rip-off. We installed geothermal in our house. It cost a bit
more than $11,000 for a 2700-sq ft house. It did heat the house modestly
well, but it NEVER cooled the place below 80 degrees F.
 
Those systems are difficult to find service for, and they don't last. After
2 years, our compressor quit. We replaced it twice - $450 plus freight each
time - and it wouldn't work for more than a month before it "froze up"
and became worthless again.
 
The company that manufactured the damn thing won't talk to us or repair
it. We are going to have to sue them to try to recover some of our
costs.
 
Our geothermal is very energy-efficient, though - since it will not even
start, it doesn't cost us a cent to run.
 
Please don't make the same mistake we made. Go with a system that will work.
 
Nikk Katzman
University of Kentucky
130A Tobacco & Health Research Institute
Lexington, KY 40546-0236
e-mail: katzman@ukcc.uky.edu
 
=> May I be granted the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
   Courage to change the things I can,
   And the vocal cords to gripe about it either way.


From envrej@epb4.lbl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:43:45 EDT 1995
Article: 43 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: envrej@epb4.lbl.gov (Richard Jansky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: OSA Damper Leakage
Date: 1 Jun 1995 18:16:15 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
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References: <TATribble-300595184658@b90-tid6.lbl.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: epb4.lbl.gov

Just wondering...

Why do you want to have tight OSA dampers? Isn't the task of OSA dampers
to provide OSA to the space, and therefore, never be fully closed, since
you almost always need a minimum OSA amount?

Richard

In article <TATribble-300595184658@b90-tid6.lbl.gov>, TATribble@lbl.gov (Tom Tribble) writes:
|> A number of years ago I read an article in HPAC (or a similar publication)
|> that described a field survey of OSA dampers and the amount of air leakage
|> observed (when the dampers were in the closed position) due to missing or
|> damaged seals, bent or misaligned blades, and inacurately adjusted
|> linkages.  Now (many years later) when I need a reference of this type, I
|> can't seem to find ANYTHING on this subject.  If any one has any published
|> sources for information on this subject, I'd appreciate an E-Mail pointing
|> me in the right direction.  Thanks for any help.
|> 
|> -- 
|>  )))*-----*))))    
|>        \\( )//       
|>         \| |/       
|>         // \\       
|>  TATribble@lbl.gov
|>     (510) 486-7654


From c4p@ornl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:43:46 EDT 1995
Article: 44 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "C. Wayne Parker" <c4p@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:02:31 GMT
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN
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carl@oppedahl.com (Carl Oppedahl) wrote:
>
>Okay, HVAC fans, here is the next question.  The AC guys are up on my >roof even now, and there is a debate going on.  They install=
ed a sight >glass on the liquid line right after it comes out of the compressor.

Liquid does not come out of the compressor (for very long anyway) ;^)
I assume you are talking about the liquid line between the condenser and 
the expansion valve.  Is this correct?

>Now they want to move the sight glass to a point between the evaporator >and compressor.  

This line is called the suction line which carries cool low pressure 
vapor to the compressor.

>Can someone spend a moment to say if there are "right" and "wrong" >places to put a sight glass?

Normally you would install the sight glass in the liquid line downstream 
of the condenser and filter drier but upstream of the solenoid and 
expansion valves and evaporator.

Hope the correct decision was made following their debate.  Those HVAC 
guys should know this stuff!  Let me know what they decided...Wayne

-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| C. Wayne Parker          Lockheed Martin Energy Systems |
| c4p@ornl.gov                              Oak Ridge, TN |
| HVAC Engineer                                       USA |
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=




From mattn@metronet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:47 EDT 1995
Article: 45 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mattn@metronet.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: low cost HVAC Windows software?
Date: Wed, 31 May 95 18:44:01 PDT
Organization: Texas Metronet, Inc  (login info (214/705-2901 - 817/571-0400))
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Does anyone know of low cost Windows software for HVAC 
design, i.e. correct fan set (blower) sizing given 
a certain size, type and configuration of duct and demand.
I'm looking for something not more than $200.

I'm a one person work from my home salesperson for
laboratory furniture. A necessary adjunct to selling
lab furniture is also selling the fume hood and that
in turn involves selling the blower in most small, 
end-user direct industrial situations. 

Thanks in advance to your assistance!

Sincerely, Matt Nations



From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:43:48 EDT 1995
Article: 46 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Air Conditioning?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 00:09:21 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
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X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.09

In <jgrooms.215.01B577DC@mindspring.com>, jgrooms@mindspring.com (John W. Grooms Jr.) writes:
>I was so excited to see this group, I forgot to ask for any opinions 
>concerning Natural Gas Air Conditioning?  A local company is running some type 
>of promotion/rebate program. 
>
>Any opinions would be a great help!
>
>Still sweltering,
>

The only natural gas driven A/C residential unit I'm aware of is manufactured by
York International.  If your gas rates are cheap, and electric rates expensive,
it's worth looking at.  I believe the unit uses a gas driven engine, and it is not
an absorption unit.  


Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From sakata@cftnet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:49 EDT 1995
Article: 47 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sakata@cftnet.com (Mike Waller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 31 May 1995 22:50:58 GMT
Organization: CFTnet
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Carl Oppedahl (oppedahl@patents.com) wrote:

: Putting an ammeter and voltmeter on the compressor, what I get is this.  
: Whenever the relay turns on, the compressor gets about 215 volts.  For a brief 
: moment (about 1.5 seconds), I get about 70 amps on the ammeter.  Then it drops 
: to zero.  If I sit and watch for a couple of minutes, I see a continued zero, 
: then the current jumps back to 70 amps, then after 1.5 seconds it drops to 
: zero.


: I assume that a thermal limit switch is tripping inside the compressor, which 
: would explain the drop to zero current.  The limit switch cycles, hence the 
: brief instants of 70-amp draw.


Your compreesor is trying to start, but the internal overload is tripping on
the current draw of the start windings.  You might want to check the capacitor
with your ohmmeter, if you have one that goes up in scale to 10K.  If the
needle swings up and slowly swings back down it is good.  But I basically have
them on hand and just change it out to see if that is the problem.  There is
also a hard start kit that you can buy to hook onto the capacitor terminals.
I have used them with success.  They look like minature flashlights.

The other problem could be a "lockup". But getting it to unlock with a Little
Annie just postpones the problem until it locks up again.

Hopefully it is just the capacitor, simple and cheap.

D
D
C
A
Hopefully the capacitor is your answer.


From allds@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:50 EDT 1995
Article: 48 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allds@primenet.com (John Allds)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 02:31:34 GMT
Organization: Primenet
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oppedahl@patents.com (Carl Oppedahl) wrote:

>	
>So the air conditioner, a York 3-ton package unit, has stopped working.  The 
>blower and fan both work fine, but no cooling.  The compressor, obviously, or 
>loss of coolant, or something like that, is to blame.  It's not the compressor 
>relay, because that same relay turns on the condenser fan, and it spins fine.

>Putting an ammeter and voltmeter on the compressor, what I get is this.  
>Whenever the relay turns on, the compressor gets about 215 volts.  For a brief 
>moment (about 1.5 seconds), I get about 70 amps on the ammeter.  Then it drops 
>to zero.  If I sit and watch for a couple of minutes, I see a continued zero, 
>then the current jumps back to 70 amps, then after 1.5 seconds it drops to 
>zero.

>With normal operation I would expect the current to drop to about 18 amps, not 
>zero.

>I assume that a thermal limit switch is tripping inside the compressor, which 
>would explain the drop to zero current.  The limit switch cycles, hence the 
>brief instants of 70-amp draw.

>I suppose I have to hire somebody to take out the compressor and put in a new 
>one, right?


============================
 
The Compressor is definetly trying to start,.....have you tried ohming
out the compressor??..........if not, then kill the power to the unit,
Unhook the three wires to the compressor e.g. the Common Start
and the Run wire's, (make sure you put them back on the correct
terminal's when your done!!) Now take a ohm meter or continuity 
tester and check from (C) Common to (R) Run and then (C) Common to
(S) Start and then (S) Start to (R) Run.  If you  find an open  circut
on any of the above combination, then the I.P. is Tripped or the
windings have opened and are NO GOOD. If it's the I.P. and it's
internal, and it won't re-set, then the compressor is Trashed. If the
I.P. is external, replace it.  If you get a closed circut on the above

combination, then the winding's are OK, and the Motor itself is Froze
up and not spinning.......on last thing you can try is to put on a
Hard Start Kit, and see if that will kick it in.
 
Good Luck.
 




     _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
          -----John & Dia Allds-----  
        ----Allds@primenet.com---- 
    ---- Allds@aztec.inre.asu.edu----
   _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
   
   



From allds@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:51 EDT 1995
Article: 49 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usenet
From: allds@primenet.com (John Allds)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Please help!
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 02:33:24 GMT
Organization: Primenet
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elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Erik Lloyd) wrote:

>OK! I am no engineer but I do have a problem with my AC!

>The thing is, it's stopped blowing the cold air it used to before. I've 
>only had it for a week! And when I turn it on I can hear what seems to be 
>the thermostat kicking in, but it happens every 20 secs or so, but never 
>stays on! 'cept for maybe a second! Gets annoying after a while!

>Thanks y'all.

>--
>  *8)
> elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
 
==========================
 
Sounds like a Bad Compressor.  What type of unit is it?
 

     _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
          -----John & Dia Allds-----  
        ----Allds@primenet.com---- 
    ---- Allds@aztec.inre.asu.edu----
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From allds@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:53 EDT 1995
Article: 50 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usenet
From: allds@primenet.com (John Allds)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Another post to see if...
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 02:36:37 GMT
Organization: Primenet
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hstevens@bga.com (H. Adam Stevens) wrote:

>In article <3qgdbs$o5o_001@grail407.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
>milligan) wrote:

>> We're on-line yet?  Anyone out there  ?
>> 
>> Paul

>Hi there
>Just the news group I need. 
>Does anyone make an HVAC system (gas-backed heat pump preferably) that does not
>use Freon (no-CFC)? My wife's BMW has such a machine, why not in the house?
>We're remodeling a 1938 vintage home that is original, untouched and one-owner.
>I want to get it right.

>H.

>Please email too as I may not get online for a couple-three weeks.
 
 
===================================
 
Well I don't know what part of the Country you are calling from, but
I am starting to see the use of 134a, but not really in Home HVAC yet.
 
Here in Arizona, we are seeing alot of it in Car's now.
 
-John




From allds@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:54 EDT 1995
Article: 51 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usenet
From: allds@primenet.com (John Allds)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-22
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 02:38:33 GMT
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 21
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e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (Ed Pearlstein) wrote:

>     Is R-22 refrigerant still available to private persons?

========================
 
NO.........you MUST be certified by what ever State your in!!
 
R-22 is one class and R-12 is another.
 
Sorry. :(
 

     _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
          -----John & Dia Allds-----  
        ----Allds@primenet.com---- 
    ---- Allds@aztec.inre.asu.edu----
   _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
   
   



From jaredm@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:56 EDT 1995
Article: 52 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.mathworks.com!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: jaredm@aol.com (JaredM)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Nesbitt Multizone
Date: 31 May 1995 22:27:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Hello all...
   We have been asked to perform service on a Nesbitt 30 ton rooftop circa
1974 +/- but there is one problem.  There is no wiring diagrams, or
literature of any kind associated with this unit on site at the time.  I
would like to know if any one out there has a current source for such.  I
don't have the model # handy but will post it if it may help.  Thanks in
advance...


From dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil Thu Aug  3 22:43:57 EDT 1995
Article: 53 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Gunsmoke <dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Room Heating
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Use radiant heat lamps with reflectors.  

This type of lamp transmits energy in the 3 - 6 micron wavelength region 
which is in the near to mid-infrared part of the spectrum.  Human skin 
has a very low reflectivity value (close to zero) at these wavelengths 
and can be considered opaque (meaning that there is very little 
transmissivity).  That leaves most of the energy irradiated to be 
"absorbed" by the people underneath the lamps.

Since these lamps use radiation as the method of heat transfer, they 
don't necessarily have to be close to the items that need to be heated 
(i.e. the people).  They do however need to be directed at the people 
underneath.  The reflectors will help to concentrate or focus a greater 
amount of energy in the desired direction.

I have seen several instances where these lamps are hung up in a 
wherehouse or large building directly over areas where personnel do their 
work.  When they are needed, the personnel simply turn on the switch and 
begin feeling the heat almost instantly.  Of course, some type of control 
either designed into the exact number of lamps, distance away from the 
people, or an ON/OFF controller will be necessary to maintain a 
comfortable temperature.

I hope this helps.  If anyone finds me to be in error, please feel free 
to show me the light.  Doh! Bad joke.

Matt Dillon



From ejdavis@netcom.com Thu Aug  3 22:43:58 EDT 1995
Article: 54 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ejdavis@netcom.com (Edward J. Davis)
Subject: Darcy Equations?
Message-ID: <ejdavisD9HAyD.Cwt@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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	I am doing some programming that requires calculating changes to 
fluid characteristics when moving through piping, valves, orifices, etc.  
I was planning on using basic fluid flow thumb rules for non-compressible 
fluids, but saw a reference to "Darcy Equations".  Even though I have 
managed to get an applied math degree, I haven't heard of these.  Can 
anyone point me towards some resources or handbooks that outline this 
topic.  Reply by e-mail is file.

Ed Davis  ejdavis@netcom.com


From tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu Thu Aug  3 22:43:59 EDT 1995
Article: 55 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu (Thomas H Miller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Another post to see if...
Date: 31 May 1995 20:44:33 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
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paul milligan (pjm@nando.net) wrote:
: We're on-line yet?  Anyone out there  ?

: Paul
Howdy,  we're over here, behind the new EPA regulations :)..

Hi Paul,

This looks like it should be an interesting group to stay up to date with.
I used to be in the hvac business, and just wanted to see what was here.
 
Bye for now.
Tom



From bprice@vm2.yorku.ca Thu Aug  3 22:44:00 EDT 1995
Article: 56 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Blair Price <bprice@vm2.yorku.ca>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: FAQ list for sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 1 Jun 1995 02:08:12 GMT
Organization: York University - Facilities Management
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To: randyw@on-ramp.ior.com

Randy, Looks like a real good newsgroup. I will check in often.



From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:44:01 EDT 1995
Article: 57 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!grail614
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 21:22:19 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3qnvjh$oj4_001@grail614.nando.net>
References: <3qmvjt$r5v@news.panix.com> <3qn5ln$r2p@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>
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In article <3qn5ln$r2p@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>,
 
~~>>Now they want to move the sight glass to a point between the evaporator
>and compressor.  
~~>
~~>This line is called the suction line which carries cool low pressure 
~~>vapor to the compressor.

Actually, the liquid line could be described in the same terms ( between
evap and compressor ).  The sight glass can not be in the suction line.

~~>Normally you would install the sight glass in the liquid line downstream 
~~>of the condenser and filter drier but upstream of the solenoid and 
~~>expansion valves and evaporator.

Yes.  It must absoultely be in the liquid line, which by definition is
downstream of the condensor.  I suggest downstream of the drier, so it can
show you the effect of any drier restriction.  This is fairly standard.

It is usually DOWNSTREAM of the solenoid, for the same reason.  It must
be upstream of the TXV, as at that point, you're not in the liquid line
any more.  Typically it is kept near the condensing unit, for ease
of reference during servicing.

Good argument can be made for placing it right before the TXV, to show
any flashing that occured in the line, but this is frequently not
done.

There is no rule that says you can't have two sight glasses, BTW.  As long
as they're both in the liquid line !

Paul


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:44:02 EDT 1995
Article: 58 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!grail614
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 21:25:53 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
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In article <3qnq1m$gj5@news.panix.com>,

~~>The first place where they put the sight glass was on the 
high-pressure line 
~~>right where it exits the compressor.  Then they slapped their 
foreheads and 
~~>removed it from there, and installed it between the condenser and 
evaporator.

Be scared.  Be very scared.  Anyone who would make that mistake should not
be working unsupervised.  Get a competent tech to check out EVERYTHING
they did.

I would almost promise you there are other problems.  They are apparently
guessing.  This will cost you money in a very few years.

Paul


From BSTS60A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:03 EDT 1995
Article: 59 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!news.mathworks.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!swiss.ans.net!prodigy.com!usenet
From: BSTS60A@prodigy.com (Randy Olson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Best Choice for Quiet Central A/C ???
Date: 1 Jun 1995 06:51:52 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3qjo28$16f0@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>
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I am installing A/C in my 2500 sq. ft house in Seattle, Washington.  
Everyone is suggesting 10 Seer systems but 4 vendors have suggested 4 
different brands.  I am interested in quiet almost more than efficiency, 
etc as electricity is cheap and temp doesn't get THAT hot.

They have suggested Payne, Lennox, Trane, and Carrier.  Which is the 
quietest in a standard 10 seer model ?  When I've asked for quiet some 
vendors bumped my to a 14 seer system but it's not worth the extra money.


Any "tricks" or "tips" I should be sure the contractor does or doesn't do?


This looks like about a $3000 job so I'd like to make the right decisions.
Any help is appreciated..

I hope I not asking a bad question.  I skimmed the threads from November 
to April looking for any previous discussion.....

Randy O




From randyw@on-ramp.ior.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:05 EDT 1995
Article: 60 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!express.ior.com!usenet
From: randyw@on-ramp.ior.com (Randy Wilkinson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: low cost HVAC Windows software?
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 21:35:46 GMT
Organization: Spokane, Washington
Lines: 17
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mattn@metronet.com wrote:


>Does anyone know of low cost Windows software for HVAC 
>design, i.e. correct fan set (blower) sizing given 
>a certain size, type and configuration of duct and demand.
>I'm looking for something not more than $200.

Is FREE low cost enough?  Try looking with your web browser
at 'http://on-ramp.ior.com/~randyw/engrproj.html'.  It works best
if you use Netscape.  

There are windows programs for duct sizing, pipe sizing and 
psychrometric analysis.  If you like them (or not) ley me know.

Randy Wilkinson



From leblang@atria.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:06 EDT 1995
Article: 61 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: leblang@atria.com (David Leblang)
Subject: In floor radiant heat - any good?
Message-ID: <D9IHtu.DAD@atria.com>
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 20:49:05 GMT



I am building a house and am considering putting in a radiant
heat system -- the type that runs hot water (90-100 degrees) through
plastic tubes in the floor.

I've been told that this is great for hardware floors and tile floors
but not so good in carpeted areas. 

The HAVC rep says that the system couldn't maintain 70 degrees when
it is 0 outside in a carpeted room 18 x 18 x 18 (open for two floors).

Anyone with comments/suggestions?

thanks,
    David
-- 
David Leblang  <leblang@atria.com>
Atria Software <URL http:www.atria.com>
24 Prime Park Way, Natick MA 01760
(508) 650-5121 [direct], -5100 [main], 647-1760 [fax]



From shood@uoguelph.ca Thu Aug  3 22:44:07 EDT 1995
Article: 62 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: shood@uoguelph.ca (Stephen A Hood)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Advice for those asking advice ...
Date: 2 Jun 1995 17:57:11 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
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Advice seekers, please say what part of the country (or world) you live 
in. Climate, utility rate and codes differences between Minnesota and 
Florida (or Finland and Australia) will make the difference between what 
you should heed and what should go in-one-ear-and-out-the-other. 

Congrats to those who organized this newsgroup! 


From jwdude2154@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:08 EDT 1995
Article: 63 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: jwdude2154@aol.com (JWDUDE2154)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Dirty socks, anyone?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 18:23:38 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

>>Message-ID: <D9IuLp.Lwo.B.ecsvax@ecsvax.uncecs.edu>
>>
>>
>>Hello.  My new Trane heat pump has come down with the dirty socks
>>syndrome. It started as we entered our first heating season.
>>The installer has come out and 'cleaned' the coil, but it still
>>smells like socks.  Any suggestions?  What is this all about?
>>
>>Regards
>>-- 
>>  Russ Crisp, Systems Analyst        |  Ham Call: KA4UXZ
>>  Western Carolina University        |    BITNET: crisp@wcuvax1.bitnet
>>  Business Affairs Division          |  Internet: crisp@wcu.edu
>>  Room 311-A, HFR Building           |     Voice: (704) 227-7003

Russ,

If the Trane unit has an aluminum evaporator coil you may have a problem.
If your Tech washed it with a chemical coil cleaner or he installed a
algae tabs in the drain pan. Either of these items has a reaction to the
alluminum and will create the smell. I have not heard it happening to a
Trane but Carrier has had a bad problem of this.

If the drain pan holds water in it from the a/c operating this can cause a
smell during the heating mode. If there is algae and water in the pan the
coil will dry the water out and cook the algae.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
JWDUDE2154@aol.com


From dtiller@rmc.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:10 EDT 1995
Article: 64 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!gnd0.rmc.edu!usenet
From: dtiller@rmc.edu (David Tiller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Leaking furnace
Date: 1 Jun 1995 11:02:35 -0400
Organization: Randolph-Macon College
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I had been noticing what sounds like air being sucked through the oil
pump on my furnace for a while, and decided to check the connections,
nozzle, and filter at the same time.  I removed the gun and set it aside
until I can get a new nozzle.  Later that day I turned on the fan to stir
the air in the house a bit and was greeted by the smell of #2 fuel oil.
I went downstairs and found that air was blowing out of the observation 
hole and the hole that the gun came out of.  Upon further investigation I
found that there's a 1/4" gap between the end of the tube in the observation
hole and what feels like the firebox.  This is a large-ish (125K BTU +)
Tappan furnace.  It sounds like I have a leak between the firebox and the
fresh air system.

What advice would you give me?  What should I look for as far as what
should/shouldn't have a gap or a leak?   Thanks in advance,
-- 
David Tiller                | Network Administrator | Voice: (804) 752-3710   |
dtiller@rmc.edu |  n2kau/4  | Randolph-Macon College| Fax:   (804) 752-7231   |
  Don't let your SKS get    | P.O. Box 5005         | ICBM:  37d 42' 43.75" N |
"Tainted with Defilement!"  | Ashland, Va 23005     |        77d 31' 32.19" W |


From jwdude2154@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:11 EDT 1995
Article: 65 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jwdude2154@aol.com (JWDUDE2154)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: 2 Jun 1995 18:34:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>>Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:59:36 GMT
>>Message-ID: <3qn90o$phv@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>


>>That's what it looks like now for the porch; while on vacation in Greece
>>I saw many of these 'splits'. What would be the smallest one can buy in
>>terms of costs/capacity?. A small window unit is $300-400, would a mini
>>split be twice that? I don't mind that.... 

The smallest one you can get is 6,000 BTUH i believe. I do not sell enough
of them to give you a cost off the top of my head.

>>>I would use a zone control between your house and basement. It will be
>>the
>>>only thing that can heat one space then turn around and cool another.

>>Assuming the thermostat gives a few minutes of delay between switching!
>>(or it is just an urban legend that you have to wait X mins between
>>switching from heat back/to cool?)

There will be a small time delay. The a/c system needs to sit for 5
minutes before restarting. You should not short cycle it. To go from one
to another will not take that long. Depends on who's controls we are
discussing.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
JWDUDE2154@aol.com


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:12 EDT 1995
Article: 66 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Advice Needed!!!  Replacement Central Air/Ventilation
Date: 1 Jun 1995 04:54:10 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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John W. Grooms Jr. <jgrooms@mindspring.com> wrote:

>3. We have allergies in our family. Any opinions concerning whole house
>air cleaners or humidifiers?

One nice new electronic air filter is made by Aqua-Air Technologies,
at (410) 489-5288. The ESSA electronic filter comes in 14 standard sizes,
and slips in place of a normal air filter in a hot air heating system.
It has a retail price of about $200. It's an inch thick, and it uses
three metal screens with two filter pads between the screens. The center
screen has a potential of 7,000 VDC, and the outer two are grounded. 
The filter pads cost about a dollar, and need replacing about every two
months. The device comes with a small 110-24V transformer which plugs into
a wall socket, and the power consumption is listed as 24VAC at 1.6 VA. 

Here is the basic filter performance:

Typical Ambient Particle                
Size distribution (in microns) per m^3       Particle Removal Rates 
                                         
                       % by    % by          Electrostatic   ESSA
Size (um.)   Count     count   weight        ($800-1200)     ($200)

10+          1,000     .005%   28%  xxx x    99%             99+%
5-10        35,000     .175%   52%    x x    95%             99+%
1-5        264,000    1.32%    17%    x x    85%             99+%
.5-1     1,352,000    6.78%     2%    xxx    60%             90+%
.01-.5  18,280,000   91.72%     1%    xxx    40%             65%

                                    |||||_ bacteria/viruses/spores
                                    ||||_ cooking/tobacco smoke
                                    |||_ household dust
                                    ||_ pollen/mold/spores
                                    |_ dander/hair

Average synthetic dust weight arrestance: 79%

Single pass efficiency: 33% @0.3 um, 75% @0.5 um, 95% @1 um, 99% @3 um

Pressure drop: 0.05" @150 lfm, 0.1" @225 lfm, 0.15" @300 lfm, 0.22" @375 lfm

ASHRAE dust holding capacity: 20 gm/ft^2

Does not produce ozone

More than one person with severe asthma has told me that these really work,
that they have had their first night of good sleep in years, after spending
one night in a bedroom with one of these devices.

The air filter product is available now, and Aqua Air will soon have a
stand-alone console model with built-in fan, prefilter and charcoal filter.
One low-cost way of using the air filter now is to buy a $15 20" box fan and
mount a 20" ESSA filter on the suction side, with duct tape...

Nick 



From EDRN@dlep1.itg.ti.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:13 EDT 1995
Article: 67 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: EDRN@dlep1.itg.ti.com (Lynnette)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: heat-vent-ac FAQ?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 20:27:30 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc.
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In article <3qkt0g$fgi@sun001.spd.dsccc.com>, rmthomps@spd.dsccc.com (Robert Thompson) says:
>
>Since this group is new, there probably isn't any FAQ at this
>time. 

FYI,

I sent Bob a copy of the FAQ. For other new readers, since the group
is so new, remember that if your feed just picked the group up, 
you may not get posts dated prior to the date your feed was established. 
Be patient; the FAQ is posted every 2 weeks. Also, please be aware that
to ftp for the FAQ will cost our nice FAQ-maintainer Randy Wilkinson 
actual money after a certain number of ftp's are made.  

What a nice guy !! Thanks Randy, for tending the HVAC FAQ !!!

Lynnette 


From fsc@core.rose.hp.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:20 EDT 1995
Article: 68 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: fsc@core.rose.hp.com (Steve Chalmers)
Subject: Re: Nees suggestions for high humidity in winter
Sender: news@icon.rose.hp.com (News Administrator)
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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 23:59:32 GMT
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Due to mold allergies by various family members, I have the problem
you described year-round...here in (presumably sunny) California.

The "emergency measures" I take are: 

   (1) Mold zappers (contraptions with a heating coil in the middle which
       heat the air in the room a bit at a time to hot enough to stunt
       the mold spores) in each bedroom.

   (2) Chemical dehumidifiers anyplace that seems damp.

   (3) Chlorine bleach on any surface appearing moldy (knowing that it is
       the highest pareto pesticide-exposure reason for emergency room
       visits), even if it means frequent repainting.

For a while in our old house, we would wheel a dehumidifier into the
bathroom after all showers were done to pull the moisture back out of the
air.

My dream, though, is a knob on the wall which I can turn to "45%", the
lights dim, and a few hours later the relative humidity is down 10 or 15%
>from  the 55-60 we normally see.  Without the noise of having a bunch of
dehumidifiers running around the house -- or the risk that my 2 year old
will decide they're fun.  Anyone know how to build the system behind my
dream knob?

Steve
fsc@core.rose.hp.com
(on my own, of course)



From jwdude2154@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:21 EDT 1995
Article: 69 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jwdude2154@aol.com (JWDUDE2154)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Fan between basement and main floor?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 01:22:24 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Rick,

Have a Humidistat installed on your basement A/C. This will bring on the
A/C as a dehumidifier when the humidity is up. You will need a t-stat with
auto changeover feature. A good tech can do this for you.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
JWDUDE2154@aol.com


From YGGK68A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:22 EDT 1995
Article: 70 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 05:54:40 GMT
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oppedahl@patents.com (Carl Oppedahl) wrote:
>
>	
>So the air conditioner, a York 3-ton package unit, has stopped working.  
The 
>blower and fan both work fine, but no cooling.  The compressor, 
obviously, or 
>loss of coolant, or something like that, is to blame.  It's not the 
compressor 
>relay, because that same relay turns on the condenser fan, and it spins 
fine.
>
>Putting an ammeter and voltmeter on the compressor, what I get is this.  

>Whenever the relay turns on, the compressor gets about 215 volts.  For a 
brief 
>moment (about 1.5 seconds), I get about 70 amps on the ammeter.  Then it 
drops 
>to zero.  If I sit and watch for a couple of minutes, I see a continued 
zero, 
>then the current jumps back to 70 amps, then after 1.5 seconds it drops 
to 
>zero.
>
>With normal operation I would expect the current to drop to about 18 
amps, not 
>zero.
>
>I assume that a thermal limit switch is tripping inside the compressor, 
which 
>would explain the drop to zero current.  The limit switch cycles, hence 
the 
>brief instants of 70-amp draw.
>
>I suppose I have to hire somebody to take out the compressor and put in 
a new 
>one, right?

Carl,

I'm afraid you are getting some bad advice here. I am not going to say 
>from  whom, but I do suggest you get a qualified tech to check out your 
system. It could be several things--some of which has been mentioned. It 
could also be a txv system without a start kit, or with a bad SAK--there 
are several possibilities. One thing for sure, and here is where you have 
gotten bad advice--you are obviously not qualified to trouble shoot this 
problem, and you could get hurt. Get a pro, please.

Note to all readers: We didn't cover this in the FAQ, but I really hope 
that this is not going to turn into a "Help the Do It Your-Selfer" 
Newsgroup.

David O.



From rstanley@bnr.ca Thu Aug  3 22:44:23 EDT 1995
Article: 71 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Rick Stanley P840 <rstanley@bnr.ca>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: How would you heat/cool this garage/bonus room addition??
Date: 1 Jun 1995 14:24:40 GMT
Organization: Bell Northern Research
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I'm currently planning a garage/bonus room addition to our house. I'm looking
for recommendations on the best way to heat and cool the bonus room. 
Here's some information:
Current House
=============
Is a story and a half, @1800 square feet.
Has two heating/cooling units, one for 1st floor/one for second floor.
They are both natural gas furnaces. One is in the crawl space and one is in
the attic (with two compressors outside).

The garage/bonus room is going to be attached to the house. There will be no
access to the bonus room from the second floor. Access to the bonus room will
be at an existing side entrance door. A landing will be built at this door
for the stairs going up to the bonus room. I plan to frame this area in,
insulate, and sheet rock. I don't plan to ever heat and cool the garage.
The bonus room will be @ 300 square feet. There is going to be a small bath
with stand-up shower, toilet, and sink.

So, how would you heat and cool this thing? I'm sure that I'm looking at a
new stand-alone system. Any recommendations??

Thanks!

Rick Stanley                      | E-Mail ----->>>> rstanley@bnr.ca
Bell Northern Research            |-----------------------------------
35 Davis Drive                    |      /~~\\       ,    , ,
Research Triangle Park, NC 27708  |     #===||==========#***|
(919)991-7673 or ESN 294-7673     |      \__//            ` `



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:24 EDT 1995
Article: 72 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Advice Needed!!!  Replacement Central Air/Ventilation
Date: 2 Jun 1995 21:29:58 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

Spiros Triantafyllopoulos <c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> wrote:

>We have a Honeywell whole house electrostatic system; it works extremely
>well and we pretty much never dust anymore. The effects were obvious when
>we neglected to clean the plates once and turned it off, only to see 
>dust everywhere...

Including inside the downstream ducts, as I understand this...
In fact, this downstream duct dust collection can harbor further beasties.

>The only negative is that it requires the usual cleaning once a month in a
>dishwasher but still every 3-4 months in a hi pressure car wash to
>get all the dust out...

And it's hard to fit one of these in the dishwasher without damaging it.
This is one of the few drawbacks to such a system, other than cost. I like
the Aqua-Air (410-489-5288) system because you just throw away the medium
every few months. I don't like "disposable" products in general, but this
seems to be one of the few good ones...

Nick



From Marshall.Jose@jhuapl.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:25 EDT 1995
Article: 73 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Marshall.Jose@jhuapl.edu (Marshall Jose)
Subject: Nees suggestions for high humidity in winter
Message-ID: <Marshall.Jose-0106951635440001@joses-mac.jhuapl.edu>
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Greetings!

I own a house near the Mason-Dixon Line, north of Baltimore, MD. Not new
when I bought it, it was constructed to be very weathertight (R-30 walls,
Andersen windows, weatherstripping on everything). Heat and A/C are
provided by a heat pump. The bathroom and master bedroom adjoin the
northwest wall. Four occupants regularly take showers.

The problem: Moisture accumulates in the house. In summer, the A/C removes
much of the moisture from the air and keeps the ground level at about 55%
RH.

In winter, average RH in the house runs between 65 - 80%. The bathroom
becomes a swamp: exterior walls, ceiling, and toilet tank sweat profusely.
Running the exhaust fan reduces the sweating by about half, which is still
quite objectionable. The bathroom window is a total loss, having been
completely colonized by mildew. On very cold and windy days the ceilings,
near the exterior wall, of the bathroom and master bedroom become cold
enough to sweat continuously regardless of activity in the house. In
spring and fall, RH can get as high as 90% due to inactivity of the heat
pump.

I asked a HVAC person to look at the problem and he suggested a heat
recovery ventilator with the moisture recoverer deactivated, at about
$2,500 to install. Given the price and the fact that he had never dealt
with this problem before, I didn't go through with it.

I'm currently thinking about making a contraption which draws outside air
at 5-10 CFM and heats it to 70 degF. This might also help reduce radon
levels in the basement, but that's another matter.

Are there any suggestions from any of you? The whole family would
appreciate it because we're starting to suffer from the mold spores.
-- 
Marshall Jose, WA3VPZ
Marshall.Jose@jhuapl.edu


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:44:26 EDT 1995
Article: 74 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Leaking furnace
Date: 3 Jun 1995 01:59:01 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
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~~>What advice would you give me?  What should I look for as far as what
~~>should/shouldn't have a gap or a leak?   Thanks in advance,

There should be no air coming out.  Have it professionaly serviced.
This is dangerous stuff, both as re: fire and as re: CO.

Paul


From jwdude2154@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:27 EDT 1995
Article: 75 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jwdude2154@aol.com (JWDUDE2154)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: 2 Jun 1995 01:32:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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If you are worried about noise and astetics on the porch I would recommend
a mini-split system. But you are throwing in that you want it cheap and a
mini-split is anything but cheap. Take a look at it, it may be your
answer.

I would use a zone control between your house and basement. It will be the
only thing that can heat one space then turn around and cool another.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
JWDUDE2154@aol.com


From carter@unb.ca Thu Aug  3 22:44:29 EDT 1995
Article: 76 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!news.unb.ca!unb.ca!carter
From: carter@unb.ca (Mike Carter)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Arctic Coolers
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 09:30:17
Organization: University of New Brunswick
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At the University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, N.B., Canada, we have to 
replace several Arctic Coolers, which are evaporative coolers made for cooling 
greenhouses. They have a water inlet and level controller, a pump to 
recirculate the water over a media filter, and a fan to blow the air through 
the wet media and into the greenhouse.

Can anyone direct me to a supplier, either in the USA or Canada? Please 
respond via E-mail at:

              carter@unb.ca

Thanks,
MFC


From faustus@remarque.berkeley.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:30 EDT 1995
Article: 77 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: faustus@remarque.berkeley.edu (Wayne A. Christopher)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Software for simulating building cooling?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 23:04:58 GMT
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NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu

Does anybody have any information about software that can simulate
heating and cooling systems in buildings?  Does anybody use
general-purpose CFD codes for this?

	Wayne


From vicfung@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:31 EDT 1995
Article: 78 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: vicfung@ix.netcom.com (Victor Fung-Ho)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Darcy Equations?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 02:19:33 GMT
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In <ejdavisD9HAyD.Cwt@netcom.com> ejdavis@netcom.com (Edward J. Davis)
writes: 
>
>	I am doing some programming that requires calculating changes to 
>fluid characteristics when moving through piping, valves, orifices, etc.  
>I was planning on using basic fluid flow thumb rules for non-compressible 
>fluids, but saw a reference to "Darcy Equations".  Even though I have 
>managed to get an applied math degree, I haven't heard of these.  Can 
>anyone point me towards some resources or handbooks that outline this 
>topic.  Reply by e-mail is file.
>
>Ed Davis  ejdavis@netcom.com

 ok, here we go, my first contribution to this newsgroup...

 the Darcy-Weisbach friction factor 'f' is used in the calculation of
pressure drops of incompressible viscous fluids (eg. water) thru pipes.
 any basic book on fluid mechanics would discuss this topic, although,
for some reason, the names of darcy and weisbach is not always
associated with their equations. 
  anyway, pressure drop p is a function of the darcy-weisbach friction
factor f, the mean velocity v in the pipe, the distance L and the
diameter d:

p = f*L*v^2/2/d

fluid mechanics, by streeter, is kind of a classic in the topic. 
handbooks such as the mcgraw hill piping handbook, by nayyar, might get
you right to the most important equations.

good luck

victor fung
cannon



From c4p@ornl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:44:32 EDT 1995
Article: 79 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!ukma!rsg1.er.usgs.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!usenet
From: "C. Wayne Parker" <c4p@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: What's a therm?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 15:41:01 GMT
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3qkn2d$9gt@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>
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fintubi@navier.stanford.edu (Bill Urban) wrote:
>Sorry about the elementary question;  I'd RTFM but I don't have any
>reference books with the right info.
>
>Judging from my gas bill, a therm seems to be an amount of gas measured by
>energy content but sized to be roughly equal to a cubic foot -- they
>correct my meter reading (presumably cubic feet) by a factor roughly equal
>to one to get therms.

A therm is equal to 100,000 BTUs.  According to information I have 
available at out plant, for our natural gas the conversion is 1.031 MBtu 
per 1,000 cubic feet, which works out to be 0.01031 therms/cubic foot...

-- 
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
| C. Wayne Parker          Lockheed Martin Energy Systems |
| c4p@ornl.gov                              Oak Ridge, TN |
| HVAC Engineer                                       USA |
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=




From pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:34 EDT 1995
Article: 80 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Please help!
Date: 31 May 1995 07:38:13 GMT
Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center
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Erik Lloyd (elloyd@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) wrote:
: OK! I am no engineer but I do have a problem with my AC!

: The thing is, it's stopped blowing the cold air it used to before. I've 
: only had it for a week! And when I turn it on I can hear what seems to be 
: the thermostat kicking in, but it happens every 20 secs or so, but never 
: stays on! 'cept for maybe a second! Gets annoying after a while!

The first thing that occurs to me is that one of the cooling outlets is 
too close to the thermostat. If that is the case, the cold air is blowing 
directly on on the stat making it read the room temperature as cold and 
therefore shutting down the system. 

If not that a few more pieces of info might help.

1. The fan may not be working. If your thermostat has a 'fan' switch, 
move it to the 'on' position and listen for the fan to come on. Also 
check to see if the air actually blows. If you hear the fan running but 
don't feel air, there is likely a blockage in the duct (seen the cat 
lately?) or the fan proper has loosened from the shaft of the motor and 
is not turning.

2. The thermostat 'anticipator' may be set too sensitive. Some 
thermostats have a device that makes the thermostat shut off a little 
before the thermostat actually reads that the room temperature has been 
satisfied. That saves a little energy and usually is more comfortable 
because the thermostat reading always lags a little behind the actual 
temperature in the room.

Hope this helps. I am a little rusty because I haven't done any HVAC 
thinking in about 3 years.


From pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:35 EDT 1995
Article: 81 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Typical Install Costs questions
Date: 31 May 1995 07:48:38 GMT
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Brae Rowe (brae@phys.ufl.edu) wrote:
: Hello All,

: I think that this is going to be a fun newsgroup.  ;-)

: in a few years, my fiance and I will be debating as to whether to buy
: a new house or gutting out an old one and restoring it to new. One of
: the things I would be considering is installing a HVAC system in the
: 'to be restored' home. I am curios to know what the typical costs are
: for such an endeavor? Based on home that does not already have
: conduits or vents, what would be the costs (not including labor, just
: hardware) per thousand square foot area for a system using an
: electrical based heat pump combined with a natural gas heating system?

A rough guess (I have been out of the loop for a while) would be about 
1500$ per 1000 square feet.

: Would the combonation of the mentioned two (which has been around for
: years) be better off with separate vents, or the same? I cannot help
: but wonder if it would be better for the heating vents to be floor
: based as opposed to the near-ceiling based ac vents. On the other
: hand, I have seen some old houses in the SE part of the US that have
: ac vents on the floor. Opinions?

While you are correct that this would be the best system, it is usually 
cost prohibitive given the benefits gained. If you are lucky in how the 
ductwork is laid out you might be able to install one of the relatively 
new variable air systems that controls each room with a separate 
thermostat which controls a damper for that room (or set of rooms). That 
would automatically adjust the system for year round, hot or cold, usage. 
Unfortunately, they can be fairly costly. Does anyone know how well these 
systems are holding up regarding maintainence?

: Also, I am considering installation (possably homemade) of a solar
: hot water system. Yes, a solar hw supply. I have heard that corrosion
: can be a problem, but this would be minimal or non-existent if made
: from pvc plumbing.

: So, if we do decide to restore an older home, what would be the
: various options vs costs per 1000 sq.ft. of home?

: I know that what I am asking is quite a lot, and certainly don't
: expect one person to answer them all, but any and all information
: would be appriciated as well as advice & opinions.

If you do get an older home make sure there is plenty of access either to 
the attic or crawlspace if you need to install or revise ductwork. It can 
save some serious bucks in labor. It will also make your installation 
much more practical.

Good Luck!


From c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:36 EDT 1995
Article: 82 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: 1 Jun 1995 16:14:56 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.
Lines: 113
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3qkp20$ehd@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kocrsw06.delcoelect.com

Well, folks, it's good to see the news group in action.  I have a rather
interesting question out, which has caused stress in several HVAC
contractors; I did not get much help in misc.consumers.house, so here it
goes again with even more details...

Existing house/system:

3100 sq ft 2 story custom house; gas heat (Trane XL90), SEER 12 A/C.
New construction. 700 sq ft basement with a couple of A/C vents,
150 sq ft screened porch on concrete foundation attached to house.

What do i plan to do:

finish around 600 ft in the basement (actually 300 is already finished,
insulated, carpeted, w/2 vents, etc). Also enclose the porch using glass
windows/tile/etc to match the rest of the house.

Problems:

There are two problems, one related to the basement and one related to
the porch. 

o The porch needs to be heated and cooled, preferrably separate from the 
  house. Unfortunately, no easy way to route ducts from the existing HVAC
  (even during construction it was not feasible w/o major expense). We 
  thought about using a window A/C unit but it doesn't look appropriate in
  the neighborhood (nice houses close to each other) plus they're usually
  too noisy. 

o The basement is even more entertaining. During the winter months with the
  HVAC vents open it maintains a pretty decent 68 degrees or so since the
  furnace is running a lot (Midwest) . The problem hits during spring and 
  fall, where the heating more or less is intermittent and the place dips
  to 62-63 degrees. Running the fan constantly maybe raises it a degree or
  two, but far below the 72 or so we're accustomed to in the rest of the
  house. 

  Even worse, there are many days where the house needs to be cooled and
  the basement HEATED :-), i.e. when it's around 80 degrees and humid
  outside, we run the AC (mostly to get rid of the moisture) and the 
  basement is FROZEN. I'm sure that if we close the vents it will fix it
  but then we have the humidity to deal with, and since I plan on locating
  lots of electronics there, it has to be dealt with somehow.

  Keep in mind the basement is insulated on the inside with
  normal 2x4's and bats... I guess it just is that it is
  hard to fight the thermal mass of these tons of concrete.
  
The basement and porch need to have their own thermostats since we
don't use them all the time. The rest of the house is on a programmable
thermostat.

Solutions considered so far:

o Separate window A/C / heat unit for porch. The cheaper ones ($500
  or less) are too noisy and bulky and just don't fit with the rest of
  the house. Does not help with the basement much.

o A split system A/C / heat system for porch (one part outside with
  some shrubs to hide it, one inside). Too expensive (maybe $1,000).
  Does not help with the basement much.

o Baseboard electric heat for basement. Unacceptable for many reasons
  (would like something that circulates air thru an air cleaner and
  central dehumidifier)

o Make the basement a zone of the house with its own zone controls
  (the house does NOT currently have zoned system as it is a very 
  open design that resists zoning :-)). This would add a couple motorized
  baffles in the basement (one for house, one for basement) and two
  wired together thermostats, one in the house, one in the basement.
  I was quoted $2,000 for it, and it still does not solve the porch
  A/C problem. 

o Add a small, apartment sized heat pump JUST for the basement and
  porch. In the winter months, the heat pump would barely work to 
  boost the gas HVAC. In fall and spring, the heat pump would be used
  to heat the basement from 62-63 to around 72-73. In the summer,
  we could switch (manually or automatically) the system to ONLY cool
  the porch. I don't really anticipate HEATING the porch but that 
  could be done in the fall/spring months via the heating pump and 
  a couple switches.

An easy answer could be option #4 along with a GOOD window AC unit,
assuming I can locate an unobtrusive, quiet, inexpensive system. It
still does not solve the 'cool upstairs, heat downstairs :-)' issue.
I think I could live with it, however, mostly by recirculating
house air (74-75 degrees) thru the basement in such days.

The last option adds yet another system, plumbing, etc, which is not
desirable. 

So, wise HVAC men/women, what should I do? Does it really take $2K for
a few motorized baffles and two thermostats? are there decent, quiet,
inexpensive, small window AC/heat units? should I move? I don't mind
spending the money but would REALLY like to get something that works.

(and before stating the obvious, i.e why was this not done while the
house was built 2 years ago, I discussed it with the builder and HVAC
contractor and both told me that the heating system should be enough
to heat the extra 700 sq ft in the basement. Of course, they were
right. The problem is when the heater is NOT running :-)). No problems
in running vents, etc as the rest of the house is on crawl space with
excellent access, and basement is 9 1/2 feet ceilings and plenty of
ways to run pipes). 

Any wisdom will be appreciated... Thank you in advance!

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  Kokomo, IN 46904   (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools                 c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics Corporation             "Reading, 'Rithmetic, and Readnews"


From jhuber@fohnix.metronet.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:37 EDT 1995
Article: 83 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jhuber@fohnix.metronet.com (Joseph Huber)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Air Conditioning?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 20:17:09 -0500
Organization: Texas Metronet Communications Services, Dallas TX
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3qloql$7k1@fohnix.metronet.com>
References: <jgrooms.215.01B577DC@mindspring.com> <3qj0fh$4n4@Twain.MO.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fohnix.metronet.com

In article <3qj0fh$4n4@Twain.MO.NET> aschoen@mo.net writes:
>The only natural gas driven A/C residential unit I'm aware of is manufactured by
>York International.  If your gas rates are cheap, and electric rates expensive,
>it's worth looking at.  I believe the unit uses a gas driven engine, and it is not
>an absorption unit.  

A couple of years ago, Servell was selling a gas fired residential
absorption heat pump. I don't know if they are still selling it.

-- 
Joe Huber
jhuber@metronet.com
817-557-3186


From shood@uoguelph.ca Thu Aug  3 22:44:38 EDT 1995
Article: 84 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: shood@uoguelph.ca (Stephen A Hood)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Ai
Date: 3 Jun 1995 02:24:04 GMT
Organization: University of Guelph
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: Background:In Denmark we have a generous subsidices the natural gas
companies, by NOT giving these to investmentan area where natural gas is
installed. (due to the heatpumps use of elecic heatpump to a natural gas driven one. : /Lars. : ---
:  ************************************************************************************
: Lars Pedersen   lmdlpe@lmd.eua.ericsson.se
: LM Ericsson A/S
: Sluseholmen 8
: DK-1790 København V
: Denmark
: 
***
Absorption units are entirely different and heat pumps cannot be 
converted this way. Yes it would be like magic if only the efficiency 
wasn't so miserably low. Gas engine heat pumps on the other hand have 
merit since the engine's waste heat can be used in cold climates to 
supplement the heat pump below -15 C which is where air source units 
really start to struggle. However it would surprise me if you could 
easily change out your motor for a gas engine. Most of them are 
hermetically sealed units, controls would be tricky, to name a few problems.

There are several commercially available units: Yamaha, Aisin Seiki, York 
in the 3 to 5 RT range (home to small office in size).

So there you have it. Develop an engine retrofit package for electric 
heat pumps and make a fortune!


From ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:39 EDT 1995
Article: 85 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Ai
Date: 3 Jun 1995 12:11:53 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
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: Gas engine heat pumps on the other hand have : merit since the engine's
waste heat can be used in cold climates to : supplement the heat pump
below -15 C which is where air source units : really start to struggle.
However it would surprise me if you could : easily change out your motor
for a gas engine. Most of them are : hermetically sealed units, controls
would be tricky, to name a few problems. 

: So there you have it. Develop an engine retrofit package for electric 
: heat pumps and make a fortune!

I believe Carrier makes diesel powered refer units which hang on the end of 
overseas shipping trailers (like you see on rail flat cars). It seems if 
the compression ratio of the engine was reduced, this would work fine 
in natural gas applications. I'll bet they run a hot gas defrost cycle too. 
Anyone with experience care to add to the thread?
--
ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu---------/.\-----Northeastern Illinois University
Joseph A. Benning              / \:/ \       Chicago, Illinois, USA 60625  
                             /   [ ]   \
"I've seen it before Joe.../   /{x.x}\   \...You're an Internet junkie; 
    Roadkill, on the     /        U        \ Information Super Highway!"


From dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil Thu Aug  3 22:44:40 EDT 1995
Article: 86 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newshub.nosc.mil!news!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet
From: Gunsmoke <dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: What's a therm?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Message-ID: <D9I8s2.BJG@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil>
To: fintubi@navier.stanford.edu
Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin)
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Organization: Naval Air Warfare Center - Weapons Division
References: <fintubi-3105951432330001@htgl-mac-bill.stanford.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 17:33:38 GMT
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fintubi@navier.stanford.edu (Bill Urban) wrote:
>Sorry about the elementary question;  I'd RTFM but I don't have any
>reference books with the right info.
>
>Judging from my gas bill, a therm seems to be an amount of gas measured by
>energy content but sized to be roughly equal to a cubic foot -- they
>correct my meter reading (presumably cubic feet) by a factor roughly equal
>to one to get therms.
>
>Am I way off here?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
>
>-- 
>Bill Urban     fintubi@navier.stanford.edu    (415) 723-0560
>High Temperature Gasdynamics Laboratory, Stanford University             ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
You guys really don't have a library of references?!?

1 therm = 100,000 BTU = 105.504e6 Joules = 25.216e6 cal

According to my reference, the volumetric heating values of natural gases 
sold in California are as follows:

California - A:  38.86 KJ/Liter = 0.010434 therms/cu.ft.
California - B:  40.84 KJ/Liter = 0.010966 therms/cu.ft
(You might want to check my conversion - 1 KJ/L = 2.685E-4 therms/cu.ft)
These are standardized to 1 atm; 68 deg F.           

Not too sure what the "A" and "B" designations are for.  I think it has 
to do with the variation in composition at the location where the natrual 
gas is located.  Somewhat similar to differentiating between a "Rosebud, 
Montana" or "Musselshell, Montana" coal.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "correcting" your meter.  I assume 
that they simply measure the volume and multiply by the HHV of the gas to 
derive the amount of energy.  They then charge you according to the 
number of therms consumed.

Hope this helps you solve your problem.

Matt Dillon



From dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil Thu Aug  3 22:44:41 EDT 1995
Article: 87 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newshub.nosc.mil!news!avalon.chinalake.navy.mil!usenet
From: Gunsmoke <dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: What's a therm?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: usenet@avalon.chinalake.navy.mil (NAWS news admin)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 17:34:06 GMT
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fintubi@navier.stanford.edu (Bill Urban) wrote:
>Sorry about the elementary question;  I'd RTFM but I don't have any
>reference books with the right info.
>
>Judging from my gas bill, a therm seems to be an amount of gas measured by
>energy content but sized to be roughly equal to a cubic foot -- they
>correct my meter reading (presumably cubic feet) by a factor roughly equal
>to one to get therms.
>
>Am I way off here?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
>
>-- 
>Bill Urban     fintubi@navier.stanford.edu    (415) 723-0560
>High Temperature Gasdynamics Laboratory, Stanford University             ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
You guys really don't have a library of references?!?

1 therm = 100,000 BTU = 105.504e6 Joules = 25.216e6 cal

According to my reference, the volumetric heating values of natural gases 
sold in California are as follows:

California - A:  38.86 KJ/Liter = 0.010434 therms/cu.ft.
California - B:  40.84 KJ/Liter = 0.010966 therms/cu.ft
(You might want to check my conversion - 1 KJ/L = 2.685E-4 therms/cu.ft)
These are standardized to 1 atm; 68 deg F.           

Not too sure what the "A" and "B" designations are for.  I think it has 
to do with the variation in composition at the location where the natrual 
gas is located.  Somewhat similar to differentiating between a "Rosebud, 
Montana" or "Musselshell, Montana" coal.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "correcting" your meter.  I assume 
that they simply measure the volume and multiply by the HHV of the gas to 
derive the amount of energy.  They then charge you according to the 
number of therms consumed.

Hope this helps you solve your problem.

Matt Dillon



From envrej@epb4.lbl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:44:43 EDT 1995
Article: 88 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!emf.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!epb4.lbl.gov!envrej
From: envrej@epb4.lbl.gov (Richard Jansky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Room Heating
Date: 1 Jun 1995 18:27:43 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3ql0qv$6gi@overload.lbl.gov>
References: <ihall.23.2FCC746C@hertz.mech.wits.ac.za>
NNTP-Posting-Host: epb4.lbl.gov

In article <ihall.23.2FCC746C@hertz.mech.wits.ac.za>, ihall@hertz.mech.wits.ac.za (IS HALL) writes:
|> Could anyone give any advice on an efficient way to provide 
|> heating for a group of about 80 people, meeting for two hours,
|> in a school hall cabaple of seating approximately 400 people.
|> 
|> Heated Fans/Radiant heating/Electric/Oil heaters.
|> 
|> Problems seem to be getting heaters close enough to everybody,
|> and the fact that a high ceiling/large volume room prohibits rapid heating 
|> of the entire air space.
|> 

This is already a part of the answer. In shops, where the main door
must remain open, they use radiant heating (gas or el.), which has the
main advantage that you heat primarily the people and not the walls and
the air.

Richard

|> Any suggestions would be most welcome.
|> 
|> Iain Hall
|> 


From s-sehlhorst@ds.mc.ti.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:44 EDT 1995
Article: 89 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: s-sehlhorst@ds.mc.ti.com (Scott Sehlhorst)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 14:32:14
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In article <3qkp20$ehd@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>{snip}
>There are two problems, one related to the basement and one related to
>the porch. 
>{snip}
>o Separate window A/C / heat unit for porch. The cheaper ones ($500
>  or less) are too noisy and bulky and just don't fit with the rest of
>  the house. Does not help with the basement much.
>{snip}
>I think I could live with it, however, mostly by recirculating
>house air (74-75 degrees) thru the basement in such days.
>{snip}
>Any wisdom will be appreciated... Thank you in advance!
>Spiros

I think you can find a cheap (<$300) window AC unit for the porch, and
then enclose it in a box, with vents for inlet air (from porch) and 
output of conditioned air (to porch), and a duct for exhaust (heated)
air to the outdoors.  You could use a little sheet metal and a couple
of register vents to make it 'socially acceptable'/visually appealing.
You could also put some acoustic foam baffles on the inner walls of the
box to minimize noise from the compressor.  You'll be surprised how
effective they are.

You could run a duct from a floor register or two in the house to the
basement, terminating in a vent or two.  Then put a fan into the line
to force convection.  A squirrel cage fan may provide the airflow you
need.  Get a cheap electric heat thermostat and hook it up to the fan.
You may want to make sure that the thermostat has a 'deadband' in 
temperature, to prevent the fan from short cycling.  

You may need to be clever in locating the output of the return duct,
to prevent a cold breeze from blowing in your upstairs.  Maybe a return
duct into the closet where you keep your water heater, or behind the
refridgerator, or whatever.

This is of course the poor man's solution, more elegant suggestions will
follow from those more experienced.

Scott "Also a frugal gourmet" Sehlhorst


From vanpelt@ios.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:45 EDT 1995
Article: 90 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: vanpelt@ios.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Air Conditioning?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 02:15:36 GMT
Organization: International Internet Association
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In <3qj0fh$4n4@Twain.MO.NET>, aschoen@mo.net writes:
>In <jgrooms.215.01B577DC@mindspring.com>, jgrooms@mindspring.com (John W. Grooms Jr.) writes:
>>I was so excited to see this group, I forgot to ask for any opinions 
>>concerning Natural Gas Air Conditioning?  A local company is running some type 
>>of promotion/rebate program. 
>>
>>Any opinions would be a great help!
>>
>>Still sweltering,
>>
>
>The only natural gas driven A/C residential unit I'm aware of is manufactured by
>York International.  If your gas rates are cheap, and electric rates expensive,
>it's worth looking at.  I believe the unit uses a gas driven engine, and it is not
>an absorption unit.  
>
>
>Andy Schoen
>aschoen@mo.net

I had an Arkla Servel gas air conditioner in my house for about 10 years.  Toward the end it
lost cooling capacity and finally could not be repaired.  I switched to an electric unit.

I guess the real question is price of gas vs electric in your area.  I originally installed it
in the era of energy shortage and brownouts.

Wes 


From basia@charm.net Thu Aug  3 22:44:46 EDT 1995
Article: 91 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: basia@charm.net (John Basia)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Leaking water-recirc AC
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 1995 10:30:35 -0400
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Hi everybody,
   I'm not a HVAC professional, and new to this group, so I'll ask a
question that may be obvious/stupid, but didn't seem to be covered in the
FAQ. The building i live in (highrise in Baltimore) has cold water
recirculation AC, and it's about 30 years old. The problem is that the
condensation lines (copper) are clogging up and overflowing, leaking all
over the place. It's happening everywhere, and nobody knows what to do-
they've tried everything. Apparantly it has been going on for a few years,
every summer when they turn on the AC. Any hints, suggestions, tips,
besides ripping out the whole system? Thanks...

-- 
basia@charm.net
(finger://basia@charm.net for PGP 2.6 Public Key, eh?)
9F CB 11 7B 32 01 41 71  4F 6F 8A C0 8A 36 7B 72


From pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:48 EDT 1995
Article: 92 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Air Conditioning?
Date: 31 May 1995 23:55:42 GMT
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John W. Grooms Jr. (jgrooms@mindspring.com) wrote:
: I was so excited to see this group, I forgot to ask for any opinions 
: concerning Natural Gas Air Conditioning?  A local company is running some type 
: of promotion/rebate program. 

: Any opinions would be a great help!

I used to live in Atlanta, designed AC there. From what I remember, the 
gas AC systems then available had several major problems. 1. high 
maintainance. Reason is that they have pumps, various chemicals to 
circulate and keep fresh, and they don't have a long track record where 
materials problems have been worked out. 2. First cost. Without the 
rebate program you would almost certainly not want to buy one. If my 
memory is correct, they were about 50% more expensive on a per ton basis. 
3. operating costs. The efficiency of the units is low making the low 
cost of gas no longer a benefit. The effective cost to operate is about 
the same as an electric unit.

Unless these things have changed somewhat, I would not recommend a gas 
fired airconditioner.


From wookie@research.att.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:49 EDT 1995
Article: 93 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wookie@research.att.com (Keith Bauer)
Subject: zoned AC and gas AC
Message-ID: <D9JnGM.IKo@research.att.com>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Murray Hill, NJ
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 11:48:22 GMT
Lines: 22

I too have seen recent ads in the New York area talking about newer designs
on gas fired absorption AC units.  The advantages are supposed to be lower
operating costs due to gas prices, and quiet operation.  It all sounds very
convincing IF ONLY the systems are reliable, easy to repair (anything
unusual is costly/difficult to repair), and above all WORK!  I would be
very interested in such a system if modern engineering overcomes these
obstacles.

On another topic, I love either baseboard or radiant (in floor) hot water
heat because it is very easy to put a thermostat in every room, thus 
allowing for personal tastes in heating.  Is there any practical way to
do the same for AC???  It appears that AC can only be handled by forced
air systems probably due mainly to the condensation problems.  It seems
that zoning a forced air system, whether it is AC or heating or both, just
isn't practical as the efficiency of the unit drops terribly when not
properly loaded.  Are there any professioanls out there with some input
on this?  Thus far the HVAC people I have spoken to basically say just
don't complicate your life with it.........but they said the same thing
about my zoned hot water system which has been running perfectly for years!

Keith Bauer  jellicat@research.att.com



From ejd@cs.ust.hk Thu Aug  3 22:44:50 EDT 1995
Article: 94 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ejd@cs.ust.hk (Dr. E. Joseph Derrick)
Subject: Portable AC Needed
Message-ID: <1995Jun2.031905.5970@uxmail.ust.hk>
Summary: Portable AC requirments 
Keywords: Portable,AC
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I have heard that there is such a thing as small portable gas powered AC
(either natural gas, coal gas or liquid petroleum gas).  Does anyone
know anything about such devices or any other devices (aside from
evaporative coolers - the location we need such devices has such a high
humidity level rendering evaporative coolers useless).  We dont mind if
these units require minimal power to run electric fans (up to 400W).

Would it be possible to provide one or more of following
suitable details on:
1- Suppliers and manufacturers, addresses or phone numbers.
2- Cost range from small portable units to larger units (if they exist)
   e.g., 2KW->6KW power output, equivalent compact units
3- Other non-electrical air conditioning options.

Please e-mail responses to ejd@cs.ust.hk
Much thanks in advance.
Regards,
Joe
--
****************************************************************************
JOE DERRICK /EMAIL: ejd@cs.ust.hk /PH: (852) 2358-7023 /FAX: (852) 2358-1477
Dept of Computer Science, Hong Kong Univ of Science and Technology,HONG KONG



From carl@oppedahl.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:51 EDT 1995
Article: 95 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: carl@oppedahl.com (Carl Oppedahl)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 12:20:03 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
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Okay, HVAC fans, here is the next question.  The AC guys are up on my roof 
even now, and there is a debate going on.  They installed a sight glass on the 
liquid line right after it comes out of the compressor.  Now they want to move 
the sight glass to a point between the evaporator and compressor.  

Can someone spend a moment to say if there are "right" and "wrong" places to 
put a sight glass?


Carl Oppedahl
Oppedahl & Larson, patent law firm
oppedahl@patents.com
watch this space for a web server with frequently asked patent questions and answers


From lmdlpe@lmd.ericsson.se Thu Aug  3 22:44:53 EDT 1995
Article: 96 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: lmdlpe@lmd.ericsson.se (LMD/T/RN Lars Pedersen)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Ai
Date: 2 Jun 1995 12:08:37 GMT
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Hello.
How does a gas fired AC work, is it a gas motor which runs the compressor or is it like the caravan gas refrigirators which magically used the heat from a gas flame directly in the cooling circuit.

Background:In Denmark we have a generous 25% govermental payback on major investments in energy saving heating systems(thermal solar, PV and heatpumps).
But the government subsidices the natural gas companies, by NOT giving these to  investments in heatpumps if installed in an area where natural gas is installed. (due to the heatpumps use of electricity)
Hence my interest in converting my electric heatpump to a natural gas driven one. 
/Lars.

---
*************************************************************************************
Lars Pedersen   lmdlpe@lmd.eua.ericsson.se
LM Ericsson A/S
Sluseholmen 8
DK-1790 København V
Denmark
*************************************************************************************



From wb8foz@netcom.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:54 EDT 1995
Article: 97 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Subject: Re: Part 2, Any opinions about Natural Gas Air Conditioning?
Message-ID: <wb8fozD9JrKs.6r7@netcom.com>
Reply-To: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex
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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:17:16 GMT
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Sender: wb8foz@netcom14.netcom.com

If your utility charges steep peak rates, it may make sense...
-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433


From pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:56 EDT 1995
Article: 98 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Best Choice for Quiet Central A/C ???
Date: 1 Jun 1995 09:27:02 GMT
Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center
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Randy Olson (BSTS60A@prodigy.com) wrote:
: I am installing A/C in my 2500 sq. ft house in Seattle, Washington.  
: Everyone is suggesting 10 Seer systems but 4 vendors have suggested 4 
: different brands.  I am interested in quiet almost more than efficiency, 
: etc as electricity is cheap and temp doesn't get THAT hot.

: They have suggested Payne, Lennox, Trane, and Carrier.  Which is the 
: quietest in a standard 10 seer model ?  When I've asked for quiet some 
: vendors bumped my to a 14 seer system but it's not worth the extra money.

: Any "tricks" or "tips" I should be sure the contractor does or doesn't do?

: This looks like about a $3000 job so I'd like to make the right decisions.
: Any help is appreciated..

: I hope I not asking a bad question.  I skimmed the threads from November 
: to April looking for any previous discussion.....

The speed of the fan is one of the biggest factors in noise near the 
unit's location. Also affecting noise is the ductwork near the outlet. If 
it has a sharp bend immediately at the outlet it can (unless the air 
speed is fairly slow) be noisy at that outlet. Check each manufacturer's 
suggested unit for the speed of the fan. My experience is that Lennox 
uses lower fans speeds for equal size units. The reason your vendor 
suggested a higher seer system is that sometimes a higher seer system is 
one that has higher nominal capacity with low air flow over the indoor coil, 
(therefore lower fan speed) effectively reducting capacity and increasing 
efficiency. I am surprised that the large increase in seer from 10 to 14 
doesn't pay off in your area. But then I have never designed for the 
great northwest.

You might want to consider a two speed unit. It will operate more quietly 
except on the rarer occasions of maximum cooling load.


From c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:57 EDT 1995
Article: 99 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:59:36 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.
Lines: 25
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3qn90o$phv@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>
References: <3qkp20$ehd@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com> <3qm7ok$kr0@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kocrsw06.delcoelect.com

In article <3qm7ok$kr0@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
JWDUDE2154 <jwdude2154@aol.com> wrote:
>If you are worried about noise and astetics on the porch I would recommend
>a mini-split system. But you are throwing in that you want it cheap and a
>mini-split is anything but cheap. Take a look at it, it may be your
>answer.

That's what it looks like now for the porch; while on vacation in Greece
I saw many of these 'splits'. What would be the smallest one can buy in
terms of costs/capacity?. A small window unit is $300-400, would a mini
split be twice that? I don't mind that.... 

>I would use a zone control between your house and basement. It will be the
>only thing that can heat one space then turn around and cool another.

Assuming the thermostat gives a few minutes of delay between switching!
(or it is just an urban legend that you have to wait X mins between
switching from heat back/to cool?)

Spiros

-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  Kokomo, IN 46904   (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools                 c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics Corporation             "Reading, 'Rithmetic, and Readnews"


From c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com Thu Aug  3 22:44:58 EDT 1995
Article: 100 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Advice Needed!!!  Replacement Central Air/Ventilation
Date: 2 Jun 1995 15:02:59 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.
Lines: 21
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <3qn973$pig@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: kocrsw06.delcoelect.com

>John W. Grooms Jr. <jgrooms@mindspring.com> wrote:

>3. We have allergies in our family. Any opinions concerning whole house
>air cleaners or humidifiers?

We have a Honeywell whole house electrostatic system; it works extremely
well and we pretty much never dust anymore. The effects were obvious when
we neglected to clean the plates once and turned it off, only to see 
dust everywhere...

The only negative is that it requires the usual cleaning once a month in a
dishwasher but still every 3-4 months in a hi pressure car wash to
get all the dust out...


Spiros

-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  Kokomo, IN 46904   (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools                 c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics Corporation             "Reading, 'Rithmetic, and Readnews"


From cball@bu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:44:59 EDT 1995
Article: 101 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: cball@bu.edu (Charles Ball)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:16:33 GMT
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Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
References: <3qkp20$ehd@kocrsv08.delcoelect.com>
Distribution: usa
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

: Existing house/system:

: 3100 sq ft 2 story custom house; gas heat (Trane XL90), SEER 12 A/C.
: New construction. 700 sq ft basement with a couple of A/C vents,
: 150 sq ft screened porch on concrete foundation attached to house.

...

:   Even worse, there are many days where the house needs to be cooled and
:   the basement HEATED :-), i.e. when it's around 80 degrees and humid
:   outside, we run the AC (mostly to get rid of the moisture) and the 
:   basement is FROZEN. I'm sure that if we close the vents it will fix it
:   but then we have the humidity to deal with, and since I plan on locating
:   lots of electronics there, it has to be dealt with somehow.

Have you considered reconfiguring your return(s) to open into the basement
and drawing an equivalent quantity of return air from the basement? This will
mix (warmer) air from upper floors into the basement and use the cooler air
to some advantage for the rest of the house.  If you still need to run the
AC/dehumidifier, the basement air should have higher relative humidity and 
therefore result in more moisture removed per kwH.

Charles Ball


From YGGK68A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:00 EDT 1995
Article: 102 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:13:11 GMT
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X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

I want to correct my error here.

My use of the wording "Bad Advice" is not correct, because I didn't see 
any incorrect opinions in *any* of the posts.

What I should have said is: "The best advice---which you have not been 
given is to call an expert."

Short Story:

I had a friend who was a HVAC contractor. Told a homeowner how to clean 
his condenser coil on the phone. The homeowner was electrocuted. Home 
owners dead, the friend lost everything he had, and many people (mainly 
the owners children) were hurt.

Technically I did not see anyone who gave a wrong or bad answer.

David



From klinger@cc.umanitoba.ca Thu Aug  3 22:45:02 EDT 1995
Article: 103 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: klinger@cc.umanitoba.ca (Jorg Klinger)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Costing software
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:04:09 GMT
Organization: The University of Manitoba
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	Any recommendations on costing software for pc/mac/unix?

	Jorg Klinger
	Arch.& Eng.Services
	U of Manitoba



From klinger@cc.umanitoba.ca Thu Aug  3 22:45:05 EDT 1995
Article: 104 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: klinger@cc.umanitoba.ca (Jorg Klinger)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Discussion on central chillers (1000T+)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:11:04 GMT
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	What are you looking at? Ammonia, 123, absorption?
What have you recently installed and why?

	More specificaly, who has recently installed a large ammonia
system?

	Jorg Klinger
	Arch.& Eng. Services
	U of Manitoba




From cue@cis.ufl.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:06 EDT 1995
Article: 105 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: cue@cis.ufl.edu (Cornelius U. Ejimofor)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.hvac
Subject: Help with TRNSYS
Date: 2 Jun 1995 15:18:45 GMT
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	I am a graduate student at the University of Florida. I am working on a
project where I am simulating thermal loads in building using a simulation
program called TRNSYS. I am getting some unrealistic results. If any one out 
there has done simular work, or has used trnsys and would like to assist me please
email me, or post here if you prefer. 
	Thanks.




From ddaye@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:08 EDT 1995
Article: 106 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ddaye@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David C Daye)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Nees suggestions for high humidity in winter
Date: 2 Jun 1995 15:29:52 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University
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In article <Marshall.Jose-0106951635440001@joses-mac.jhuapl.edu>,
Marshall Jose <Marshall.Jose@jhuapl.edu> wrote:
>
>The problem: Moisture accumulates in the house.
> [....]
>In winter, average RH in the house runs between 65 - 80%.

"To everything there is a season."

Only a half-facetious suggestion here. See if you can find a buyer who,
like me, actually *needs* such a house. Woodwind, early music, plant/
gardeners, there must be plenty of others.

My lovely panelled finished basement is so dusty-dry after 2 months of
rain, that the first person to see the house bought it. Meanwhile my
notoriously cranky reeds and I are buying into a civilized leaky basement
where I can make music all year round.

Your mileage may vary!
-- 
David Daye          http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/~bdaye/bagpipes.htm
scot & uilleann     Pipe & reed modification diagrams, sound files of
Columbus Ohio USA   GHB-A440, UP trad & silly, beginner finger tricks,
daye.1@osu.edu      and Sounds of Extra Terrier - estrial Intelligence.


From envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:45:09 EDT 1995
Article: 107 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov (David A. Jump)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: zoned AC and gas AC
Date: 2 Jun 1995 16:57:44 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory
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In article <D9JnGM.IKo@research.att.com>, wookie@research.att.com (Keith Bauer) writes:
|>
|> On another topic, I love either baseboard or radiant (in floor) hot water
|> heat because it is very easy to put a thermostat in every room, thus 
|> allowing for personal tastes in heating.  Is there any practical way to
|> do the same for AC???  It appears that AC can only be handled by forced
|> air systems probably due mainly to the condensation problems.  It seems
|> that zoning a forced air system, whether it is AC or heating or both, just
|> isn't practical as the efficiency of the unit drops terribly when not
|> properly loaded.  Are there any professioanls out there with some input
|> on this?  Thus far the HVAC people I have spoken to basically say just
|> don't complicate your life with it.........but they said the same thing
|> about my zoned hot water system which has been running perfectly for years!
|> 

In regard to zoning a forced air system, the issue of efficiency dropping
when the unit isn't fully loaded can be (and has been in commercial buildings)
addressed by using variable volume systems.  In residences it may be possible
to use the newer high-SEER AC units (which have two speeds) together with
dampered duct systems effectively.

But there are alternatives to compressor cooling, one of which is radiant
cooling where cool water is circulated through pipes in the ceiling or
panels hanging from the ceiling.  The water is only a few degrees cooler
than room temperature, in order to avoid condensation.  They can be controlled
by individual room thermostats also.  Unfortunately, they're not practical
in single family houses, but are in commercial buildings.  

I can give you a reference on single family house alternatives to compressor
cooling, please email if you want it.

David
envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:10 EDT 1995
Article: 108 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: 3 Jun 1995 23:33:49 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
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>Yes.  It must absoultely be in the liquid line, which by definition is
>downstream of the condensor.  I suggest downstream of the drier, so it can
>show you the effect of any drier restriction.  This is fairly standard.
>

Paul, there is another good reason to place the sight glass downstream
of the filter-drier.  Many sight glasses have a moisture indicator.  If
you have a small amount of contamination in the system, the filter-drier
can remove it before it screws up the indicator paper in the sight glass.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From Kevin.R.Boyce@gsfc.nasa.gov Thu Aug  3 22:45:11 EDT 1995
Article: 109 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Kevin.R.Boyce@gsfc.nasa.gov (Kevin R. Boyce)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: gas AC  (was re: zoned AC and gas AC)
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 1995 13:15:49 -0400
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- Greenbelt, Maryland USA
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In article <D9JnGM.IKo@research.att.com>,
 wookie@research.att.com (Keith Bauer) wrote:

>I too have seen recent ads in the New York area talking about newer designs
>on gas fired absorption AC units.  The advantages are supposed to be lower
>operating costs due to gas prices, and quiet operation.  It all sounds very
>convincing IF ONLY the systems are reliable, easy to repair (anything
>unusual is costly/difficult to repair), and above all WORK!  I would be
>very interested in such a system if modern engineering overcomes these
>obstacles.

I want to see one with the absorption section preheated by solar
collectors.   I think non-focusing concentrators (which ought to be
dirt-cheap if made in quantity -- just extruded aluminum) can get up to
several hundred degrees; maybe the gas isn't even needed on sunny days. 
Could you do the absorption directly in the (rather long) pipes in the
solar collectors, or do you need better control over the liquid's surface
area?

I've always thought Solar-powered A/C made sense, from an energy-storage
standpoint.
-- 
Kevin           Kevin.R.Boyce@gsfc.nasa.gov


From pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:12 EDT 1995
Article: 110 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pb1487@u.cc.utah.edu (Paul Bernhardt)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: In floor radiant heat - any good?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 23:12:21 GMT
Organization: University Of Utah Computer Center
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David Leblang (leblang@atria.com) wrote:


: I am building a house and am considering putting in a radiant
: heat system -- the type that runs hot water (90-100 degrees) through
: plastic tubes in the floor.

: I've been told that this is great for hardware floors and tile floors
: but not so good in carpeted areas. 

: The HAVC rep says that the system couldn't maintain 70 degrees when
: it is 0 outside in a carpeted room 18 x 18 x 18 (open for two floors).

: Anyone with comments/suggestions?

The HVAC rep was giving you an overly simplistic response. I have 
designed several floor radiant systems. They do give wonderful heat, 
especially in locations where the outside temperatures stay uniformly 
cold. Moderate climates where heat is needed in the morning but not in 
the afternoon are _not_ good candidates for in floor systems. The reason 
is that in floor radiant systems are slow to respond to a change from 
needing heat to not (and vice versa). This is because the piping in the 
floor must essentially heat the mass of the floor so that heat can be 
provided to the room. Obviously there is a long time lag between the 
system responding to a call for heat from a thermostat and the system 
actually putting heat into the room. 

About carpet. Yes it does reduce the system's capacity in some ways. 
Carpet acts as an insulating layer over the heated floor. The solution is 
to heat the floor to a higher temperature and to put a layer of 
insulation below the slab (or decking if a raised floor) such that there 
is a lot more insulation below than above the piping. Unfortunately, this 
higher temperature can degrade the carpet, and the glue holding it down. 
Therefore, when selecting the carpet etc, the high temperature should be 
taken into account. By the way, there are a couple of methods of 
increasing the temperature of the heating system to account for 
carpeting. One is to simply increase the water temperature. The other is 
to narrow the spacing of the water tubes (there is a limit to how much 
this can help though.)  

I think that radiant floor systems using hot water are a great solution. 
My fraternity house in college in Atlanta had such a system for the 
downstairs. It was wonderful. Walk around in bare feet in the dead of 
winter and feel wonderfully warm. Good luck!


From swartz@newsserver.sfu.ca Thu Aug  3 22:45:13 EDT 1995
Article: 111 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: swartz@newsserver.sfu.ca (Norman Swartz)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Albedo of asphalt roofing shingles
Date: 2 Jun 1995 10:37:23 -0700
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Lines: 21
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NNTP-Posting-Host: swartz@fraser.sfu.ca

To: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
 
I want to have the asphalt shingles replaced on the roof of my
home.  I have ruled out white shingles, since they quickly show
mildew stains in this climate (Vancouver, BC).  I want shingles
that reflect away as much heat as possible during the summer
months; I am less concerned about heat absorption in the winter.
I have been told that, so far as heat reflection is concerned,
red, green, brown, and black shingles all - pretty much - have
the same albedo.  Can anyone confirm this or point me to a
consumer guide?  Thanks.
 
================================================================
Prof. Norman Swartz | email (via Internet):        swartz@sfu.ca
Dept. of Philosophy | email (via Bitnet):   swartz@sfuvax.bitnet
Simon Fraser Univ.  | FAX: (604)-291-4443
Burnaby, B.C.       |
Canada V5A 1S6      |
================================================================
 



From tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:14 EDT 1995
Article: 112 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu (Thomas H Miller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me diagnose?
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:05:48 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
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David Oller (YGGK68A@prodigy.com) wrote:
: I want to correct my error here.

: My use of the wording "Bad Advice" is not correct, because I didn't see 
: any incorrect opinions in *any* of the posts.

: What I should have said is: "The best advice---which you have not been 
: given is to call an expert."

: Short Story:

: I had a friend who was a HVAC contractor. Told a homeowner how to clean 
: his condenser coil on the phone. The homeowner was electrocuted. Home 
: owners dead, the friend lost everything he had, and many people (mainly 
: the owners children) were hurt.

: Technically I did not see anyone who gave a wrong or bad answer.

: David

What are you, a lawyer or something?  :)) :)

Anyway, you are most correct. If you do not know how to do a job, call an 
expert.  It will usually save you money in the long run.


From carl@oppedahl.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:15 EDT 1995
Article: 113 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: carl@oppedahl.com (Carl Oppedahl)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Where in the system should the sight glass go?
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 95 19:51:08 GMT
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In article <3qn5ln$r2p@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov>,
   "C. Wayne Parker" <c4p@ornl.gov> wrote:

>carl@oppedahl.com (Carl Oppedahl) wrote:

>>Okay, HVAC fans, here is the next question.  The AC guys are up 
>>on my roof even now, and there is a debate going on.  They 
>>installed a sight glass on the liquid line right after it 
>>comes out of the compressor.

>Liquid does not come out of the compressor (for very long anyway) ;^)
>I assume you are talking about the liquid line between the condenser and 
>the expansion valve.  Is this correct?
>
>>Now they want to move the sight glass to a point between 
>>the evaporator and compressor.  
>
>This line is called the suction line which carries cool low pressure 
>vapor to the compressor.
>
>>Can someone spend a moment to say if there are "right" 
>>and "wrong" places to put a sight glass?
>
>Normally you would install the sight glass in the liquid line downstream 
>of the condenser and filter drier but upstream of the solenoid and 
>expansion valves and evaporator.
>
>Hope the correct decision was made following their debate.  Those HVAC 
>guys should know this stuff!  Let me know what they decided...Wayne

I mistyped above.

The first place where they put the sight glass was on the high-pressure line 
right where it exits the compressor.  Then they slapped their foreheads and 
removed it from there, and installed it between the condenser and evaporator.

I think that means they put it where you said it would be.


Carl Oppedahl
Oppedahl & Larson, patent law firm
oppedahl@patents.com
watch this space for a web server with frequently asked patent questions and answers


From enyman@vt.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:16 EDT 1995
Article: 1450 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: enyman@vt.edu (Rick Nyman)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Who makes this natural gas heat pump?
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:13:31 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Graduate (Mechanical Engineering)
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nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote:
>Can cogeneration for heating be far behind? :-) It seems to me that once
>you have solved the engine life problem, hooking it up to an electrical
>generator and running the engine block cooling water through baseboard
>radiators or a fan coil unit is an obvious next step, and one that is
>easier than the first step... 

I don't remember much about it, but there is a fairly new unit out
there that would replace an oil furnace (I vaguely remember the price
as $10,000US +, but won't swear to it).  It might have been either in
Mechanical Engineering magazine (ASME) or Popular Science - otherwise
it was in one of the newsgroups.

The system is a small Diesel engine hooked to an alternator - the
engine runs at 3600 RPM.  When the thermostat calls for heat, the
engine starts.  The electrical power (it's in the low kW range) is
sold to the grid and the engine heat works on the house.
Alternatively, there are resistance heaters that increase the capacity
of the system if needed.

The system automatically shuts off if the grid power dies as a safety
measure.  
--
Rick Nyman <enyman@vt.edu>
A recent graduate of Virginia Tech's Mechanical Engineering department.
(Still looking for a job)
Home Page: http://sfbox.vt.edu:10021/E/enyman/index.html
My ASMEnet account: nymane@asme.org



From kenacks@delphi.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:17 EDT 1995
Article: 1451 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Ken Acks <kenacks@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Free Newsletters Available--EDV&CBN
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 95 19:20:22 -0500
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com

The first two issues (Summer and Fall, 1994) of
a newsletter entitled

"ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE VALUATION AND COST BENEFIT NEWS"

are available free of charge. Please send

Name________________________________________________
Organization________________________________________
Street Address______________________________________
City, State, County, Zip____________________________
e-mail address______________________________________
ASCII__________    BINARY_____________

to kenacks@delphi.com call (516) 897-9728, or fax (516) 897-9185

Please indicate if you would like the ascii version (the
default) or a uuencoded (binary) wordperfect version.


From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:18 EDT 1995
Article: 1452 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: 27 Jul 1995 19:41:19 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <3v6mfg$709@homer.alpha.net>, sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve
Bukosky) writes:

>
>Help me on this.  Are you speaking of the condenser coil being
>oversized or the condensing unit too, including the compressor?  If
>the whole condensing unit is oversized, I would think you risk
>overheating the compressor as it wants to pump X quantity of gas.  You
>would pack up the condenser coil and have a high returning superheat,
>or so I see it at first glance.
>
>

Condenser coil only - most of them are too small anyhow.

Thanx - Mike


From blaisa@cadvision.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:19 EDT 1995
Article: 1453 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: blaisa <blaisa@cadvision.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: HVAC & REFRIGERATION EMPLOYMENT
Date: 29 Jul 1995 05:33:15 GMT
Organization: CADVision
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cad211.cadvision.com

I recently graduated from Southern Alberta Institute of Technology
with an Air Conditioning Engineering Technology Diploma. I am
currently looking for employment in this field or as a 
Refrigeration Apprentice. I would greatly appreciate any help in 
finding employment in the Calgary,Alberta region.

Thank you all for your help.

I can be reached thru e-mail at  blaisa @ cadvision.com(blaisa)


From kys2@columbia.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:20 EDT 1995
Article: 1454 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: kys2@columbia.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: HVAC Sim+
Date: 27 Jul 1995 23:38:53 GMT
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Hello All,

     I heard there is an HVAC simulation program called HVAC Sim+ .
It is public domain.  Does anyone know where I can get it?  Also,
what are the know bugs of this program?  Thanks in advance.

                                                    Kwan



From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:21 EDT 1995
Article: 1455 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: High-E gas-fired furnace (more)
Date: 28 Jul 1995 00:59:19 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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seanjg@hamlet.umd.edu (Gallagher - Sean J.) wrote:
>
>I want to thank everyone who responded to the last thread on this 
>subject.  I researched the Rheem 90 + condensing gas-fired furnace.  It 

>is very impressive.  So I think I am going with that.  Anyone got a 
>complaint about Rheem/Rudd/Weather King, speak now or forever hold your 

>peace (or about high-E condensing furnaces).

I was wondering how you were coming with your research. Told the 
WeatherKing distributor about you yesterday. It is amazing how little 
they are. Great to install! I have one in the back room to go out next 
week, 120,000 BTU. A new employee asked what I was leaning on! Couldn't 
believe a 94% 8 burner furnace in that small box!

If someone has a negative view, clarify that they aren't talking about 
the old 90% gas DrUM furnace. That was a nightmare! Were recalled. That's 
why I think the new one is so good. Rheem didn't want a repeat!



From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:22 EDT 1995
Article: 1456 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: 28 Jul 1995 01:04:05 GMT
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>Besides, I've talked to a few of the older old goats around here about
>this idea of oversizing the evaporator in home units and they say their
>opinion is that the normal coil is too small to begin with as evidenced 
by
>high pressure differential across a new coil at startup and that if you
>use a larger coil it will take longer to plug it up with lint or dirt
>caused by poor filter maintenance.

Those old goats ought to see the new super efficiency coils that are out 
these days. Really funny to see them beside the new tiny furnaces. Some 
of the bigger Trane coils are 24" wide and 30" tall in the big sizes. 
Look funny on a 40" furnace. Our WK distributor bought some 3rd party 
coils to bump 11 SEER to 12 SEER cheaper and even the 3 ton is 2 feet 
tall! Sure won't work in a counterflow application and doesn't fit in 
some highboy basement situations either. Then look at the condensers of 
some of these 14 SEER units... 



From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:23 EDT 1995
Article: 1457 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: 28 Jul 1995 01:06:31 GMT
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sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky) wrote:

>Your a man of my own thinking John.  Sounds like my kind of system!

Steve, I have YOU to thank for that 2 stage variable speed 80 I have. 
After you mentioned one time a distributor offering you and others 1/2 
price furnaces, I hit the A-S distributor up for a deal. Told him of what 
your's offered. So I got the $1000 furnace for $500. Was a scratch and 
dent model, like a forktruck smashed it, but works super and still on 
same ignitor 2 years later. I love it. 



From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:24 EDT 1995
Article: 1458 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Surplus HVAC Equipment Needed
Date: 28 Jul 1995 01:10:36 GMT
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ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) wrote:
>
>In article <3v7201$8tf@ns.concourse.com> dunfee@coil.com writes:
>>I am seeking salvage and surplus dealers of industrial grade severe 
duty HVAC equipment.  I am 
>>interested in buying unused units that have incurred damage during 
shipping or storage.  Even if you 
>
>One of the world's largest HVAC surplus places is called "USA 
Manufacturing"
>in Lebonan, Indiana, USA.

George, you ever been in their place? What a bunch of wierd stuff. Was 
there a couple of months ago getting a heat exchanger for a Williamson 20 
year old furnace. Looked at some of the packaged units in their lot - 
upwards of 10+ years old. Most equipment isn't discounted any but 
occasionally some deals. They were getting a bunch of Carrier Infinity 
furnaces in for 1/2 price. New, undented, last year's but super price. 
Where the savings comes in are the tiny stuff. Needed a special limit for 
Williamson electric furnace White-Rodgers hasn't made in years. They had 
it for $2. 



From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:26 EDT 1995
Article: 1459 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Honeywell Perfect Climate
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 01:34:53 GMT
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Anyone attend a Perfect Climate session today?  It looks like a great
device but not all that different than the commercial controllers.  I
do think we will sell one with the majority of the equipement in the
future.  It certainly is easy to retrofit!




From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:26 EDT 1995
Article: 1460 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: 28 Jul 1995 01:34:04 GMT
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In <3utmst$oqo_001@grail919.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) writes:
>In article <3utkkg$61v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>   littlejoh@aol.com (Little joh) wrote:
>~~>Boy this is getting around the track.
>~~>Putting in a bypass will help with dehum. but not as much as the return
>~~>air.  The dehumidifier is set up to do several things. 1st warmup the air
>~~>going into the unit by way of the condenser. Thus raising the temp.  2nd
>~~>going thrugh the evap. cooling the temp of the air causing it to remove
>~~>and condense the water in the air.  I was always led to believe that the
>~~>higher the delta temp. of the air and the coil will give the best
>~~>dehumidification. Has to do with the btu of the water at specific temp,
>~~>dew point, relitive humidity etc.. 
>
>	I may be mistaken, but I think they put the air on the evap first,
>then the condensor, don't they ?  After all, if you warm the air first,
>that's just that much more sensible to be removed before the air on the
>evap starts losing latent.
>
>	I think the important delta is coil temp vs dew point, not 
>incoming air temp, no ?

To improve dehumidification with an existing a/c unit, you want to
pass the air flow across the evap first, and then warm it up afterwards
if necessary.  Doing it the other way around causes the system to
chase its tail...

>~~>    We always recumend that people put in an oversized coil iue.. 2.5 ton
>~~>evap with a 2 ton condensor for better dehum. 
>
>	I've never heard of that being done on purpose.  Don't you kill your
>efficiency, not to mention the back pressure problems ?

Placing an oversized evap on a condensing unit will (1) increase suction
pressure; (2) decrease the ability of the unit to dehumidify the air; and
(3) increase the efficiency of the unit.  High SEER units typically keep
evap temps up around 45F or so.  This decreases compression ratio allowing
the compressor to operate more efficiently.

Great idea for the Phoenix area (where humidity is low).  Lousy idea for
Houston.   :-)

>Comments invited, as always.
>
>Paul
>	


Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:28 EDT 1995
Article: 1461 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: 28 Jul 1995 01:47:19 GMT
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In <3v12sf$2fm@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau) writes:
>Actually, I know several installers who routinely use an evaporator coil
>that is rated for higher capacity than the condensor unit ( 2 1/2 ton
>condensor, 3 ton evaporator coil). They use it for lower back pressure
>against the circulating fan and for generally making a unit run "easier"
>or under less load.

Mike,  something's amiss here.  Oversizing an evaporator will raise
suction pressures, given the expansion device is doing its job properly.
Higher suction pressures mean higher flow rate through the compressor,
causing the compressor to work harder.  Granted, lower suctions cause
the compressor to run "easier", but that won't happen if you oversize
the evaporator.

>
>I have oversized evaporators in commercial installations in order to keep
>head pressure down but only when I had good control of refrigerant flow so
>as to maintain a reasonable superheat and get refrigerant back to the
>compressor at a temperature low enough for adequate cooling.
>

Wait a minute...we're backwards here.  Undersizing the evaporator will have
a tendency to lower head pressures provided the unit is properly charged.
Lower suction = lower compressor flow rate = lower TD at the condenser.
Oversizing the condenser, however, is an effective way to reduce head
pressure.

>Unless you have pretty good control of the system it's probably not too
>good an idea to vary far from specs but I do know several good installers
>of home units who regularly size the evaporator 1/2 ton to one ton larger
>than the condensor. They are happy enough with the results that they have
>been doing it for many years.

No problem with this practice.  In fact, the unitary a/c manufacturers
will allow some oversizing of evaporators.  However, it will (1) reduced
the unit's ability to dehumidify, and (2) increase its efficiency.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From jjr@atlanta.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:29 EDT 1995
Article: 1462 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jjr@atlanta.com (Jim Riticher)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water mist for cooling outdoors??
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 01:54:26 GMT
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cwilliams@houston.wireline.slb.com (Cecil Williams) wrote:

>I understand that in the hot & dry parts of the U.S., like around Phoenix,
>Arizona, that  a fine water mist will make the heat a bit more bearable
>outdoors. I am looking for a source of these water atomizers or misting
>devices. Any experience with this type of outdoor cooling would be
>appreciated?

There's a company in Alabama called Springcool Systems that
manufactures misting heads and systems, primarily for large
flat-roofed structures. Sorry, but I don't have their catalog, so i
don't have an address or phone number. Maybe Sweet's or Thomas
Register?

I don't have any personal experience with their systems.

Jim Riticher
jjr@atlanta.com



From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:30 EDT 1995
Article: 1463 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 02:01:46 GMT
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BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills) wrote:

>Steve, I have YOU to thank for that 2 stage variable speed 80 I have. 

Glad to hear that, John.  I think that if more dealers experienced the
top of the line equipment, they would try and sell more of it.  By
chance were you at the Honeywell Perfect Climate presentation in
Indianapolis today?

Exec-PC  World's Largest BBS



From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:30 EDT 1995
Article: 1464 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: improved dehumidification in existing unit
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 02:02:14 GMT
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allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau) wrote:

>Condenser coil only - most of them are too small anyhow.

In that case you are making a higher efficiency unit. To some extent.

Exec-PC  World's Largest BBS



From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:31 EDT 1995
Article: 1465 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with this load calc, please ?
Date: 29 Jul 1995 19:40:53 GMT
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Oops...

	I just realized a basic error I made by adding the reheat to
total load.  My actual proposed total load should be 4.17 ton, not 4.74.

	Please continue to educate me from there.  :~)

Paul 


From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:33 EDT 1995
Article: 1466 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 29 Jul 1995 22:06:29 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu

In article <3vdlnm$meb@Twain.MO.NET> aschoen@mo.net writes:
 >
 >Paul, as you may know, converting R-500 a/c systems to R-22 is not an
 >uncommon practice nowadays.  Consider the following problems when one
 >has to service an R-500 unit: (1) try finding R-500 refrigerant.  It is
 >doable, but not easy.  Then try paying for it.  :-) (2) try finding a
 >'drop-in' replacement for R-500.  Perhaps refrigerant R-401B (MP66) is
 >as close as you are going to get but, IMHO, R-401B doesn't solve your

R-406A has also been used by quite a few as a drop-in for R-500.
No oil or metering device changes.

--ghg
http://worldserver.com/R-406A



From jaykjay@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:34 EDT 1995
Article: 1467 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jaykjay@aol.com (JayKJay)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Latent Heat
Date: 29 Jul 1995 11:14:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
heat?

                                                                       
Thanks


From n7tcf@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:35 EDT 1995
Article: 1469 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: n7tcf@primenet.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 29 Jul 1995 15:45:58 GMT
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	One of my employers was a contractor with those home insurance companies.
The policy cost about $300 circa 1985. The homeowner pays $25 per service call and
the service company does the work on a fixed rate basis. The homeowner makes a 
call to the insurance company, generally has no choice about service companies.
Callbacks are the responsibility of the service company. 
	If there are no unusual problem, unlike the one we are concerned with, all
can go well. The insurance company takes the hit. The service company is likely to 
cut corners since the margin is small, or condemn rather than repair. 
	I found a leaking, corroding evap on an older home, was not approved for 
replacement. Corrosion was deemed "normal wear and tear." Not a covered failure.
Homeowner was not pleased, but it was an insurance question, not service problem.
	Anyway, I fully agree with Paul's posting. The service person probably never
saw a 500 system. I've worked on 3 in 13 years. I still have about 10 pounds of 500 from
1987. 
	Jim Sullivan


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:36 EDT 1995
Article: 1470 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 29 Jul 1995 15:56:38 GMT
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In <3v962n$oqg_001@grail807.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) writes:
>~~>In early July 1995, the air conditioning failed. The same air conditioning
>~~>repair company  was dispatched by the Home Warranty company.  Upon
>~~>diagnosis, the HVAC company stated that the evaporator coil was designed
>~~>for R500 refrigerant and the condensing unit was designed for R22
>~~>refrigerant.  Therefore, the evaporator coil and condensing unit were not
>~~>compatable.  The HVAC company also stated that they were sure the
>~~>condensing unit that they replaced the previous summer was engineered for
>~~>R22 refrigerant.
>
>	SO they admit their error  ?  By their own statement they say that
>they installed a condensing unit that is incompatible with the evap they left
>in ?  Are they trying to say that repeating what they claim to be someone 
>elses mistake excuses their own ?  Homey don't think so ! 
>

Paul, as you may know, converting R-500 a/c systems to R-22 is not an
uncommon practice nowadays.  Consider the following problems when one
has to service an R-500 unit: (1) try finding R-500 refrigerant.  It is
doable, but not easy.  Then try paying for it.  :-) (2) try finding a
'drop-in' replacement for R-500.  Perhaps refrigerant R-401B (MP66) is
as close as you are going to get but, IMHO, R-401B doesn't solve your
evaporator coil problems any better than R-22.  The expansion device will
have to be change in either case.  Refrigerant velocities in the evaporator
will be significantly lowered (compared to R-500) using either alternative,
which tends to degrade coil performance.  And R-401B has a large temperature
glide one must consider.  R-22 doesn't have this problem and, of course,
it is much cheaper.

The *ONLY* reason one should convert an R-500 a/c system to R-22 (or
R-401B, or whatever) is simply to extend equipment like.  With a residential
a/c unit, it makes no sense to change the condensing unit to an R-22 type
and save the R-500 evaporator.  C'mon! what are you saving here?  A
residential sized evaporator is not that expensive in the grand scheme of
things.

On commercial equipment, trying to save R-500 air handlers may make
economic sense.  Here, I've seen many R-500 to R-22 conversions.  I
recommend to servicemen doing this work to change out the TEV and
resize the refrigerant distributor to improve refrigerant distribution
in the coil with R-22.  Then hope for the best.  Oil return doesn't
seem to be a problem--R-22 is a fairly reactive refrigerant and tends
to drag oil along in the suction line pretty well at low velocities.

BTW, you think placing R-22 condensing units on R-500 coils is
'challenging', just wait till you see the new condensing units using
R-22 alternative refrigerants make it to market.  These units, with
their polyol ester oil, will likely be hooked up to old, beat up R-22
evaporators. Expansion devices *WILL* have to be changed for the unit
to operate properly.  And the ester oil may create moisture and foreign
material problems not seen before in the residential a/c industry.

Isn't this a great industry????!!!!!!

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:37 EDT 1995
Article: 1471 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: HVAC Sim+
Message-ID: <1995Jul28.080606.99504@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
From: "Brian A. Rock" <barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Date: 28 Jul 95 08:06:05 CDT
References: <3v982d$eg1@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>
Organization: The University of Kanas
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kys2@columbia.edu wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>     I heard there is an HVAC simulation program called HVAC Sim+ .
>It is public domain.  Does anyone know where I can get it?  Also,
>what are the know bugs of this program?  Thanks in advance.
>
>                                                    Kwan
>

It is available from NIST.  Contact George E. Kelly there at:

U.S. Department of Commerce
NIST
Center for Building Technology
Gaithersburg, MD 20899

I don't have his phone number handy, but search the nist.gov hosts
in Gaithersburg for his e-mail address.
-- 
*************************************************************************
Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E.   Voice:  (913) 864-3434
The University of Kansas     Fax:    (913) 864-5099
Architectural Engineering    E-mail: barock@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
Marvin Hall                  HomePage: http://energy.arce.ukans.edu/
Lawrence, Kansas 66045-2222  Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU!
*************************************************************************




From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:39 EDT 1995
Article: 1472 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Surplus HVAC Equipment Needed
Date: 28 Jul 1995 15:00:34 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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In article <3v9dec$112i@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills) writes:
 >ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) wrote:
 >>
 >>In article <3v7201$8tf@ns.concourse.com> dunfee@coil.com writes:
 >>>I am seeking salvage and surplus dealers of industrial grade severe 
 >duty HVAC equipment.  I am 
 >>>interested in buying unused units that have incurred damage during 
 >shipping or storage.  Even if you 
 >>
 >>One of the world's largest HVAC surplus places is called "USA 
 >Manufacturing"
 >>in Lebonan, Indiana, USA.
 >
 >George, you ever been in their place? What a bunch of wierd stuff. Was 
 >there a couple of months ago getting a heat exchanger for a Williamson 20 
 >year old furnace. Looked at some of the packaged units in their lot - 
 >upwards of 10+ years old. Most equipment isn't discounted any but 
 >occasionally some deals. They were getting a bunch of Carrier Infinity 
 >furnaces in for 1/2 price. New, undented, last year's but super price. 
 >Where the savings comes in are the tiny stuff. Needed a special limit for 
 >Williamson electric furnace White-Rodgers hasn't made in years. They had 
 >it for $2. 
 >
 
As long as the Arabs keep showing up with suitcases full of money
and buying whole rooms of [complete equipment], the price
wont come down much.. Picked up a new Copeland Scroll 3.5 tons
for $140 or so ...various coils, etc, for $70, rotary compressors,
1ton, for $40 (for recovery units when homemade was ok).
Valves, pressure controls, and small misc things are a hell of a deal..
Guess the Arabs dont buy that kind of stuff..

They had a bunch of pressure relief safeties (pop off valves)..
New which are $35-$40... and they were < $2 each.
--ghg


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:40 EDT 1995
Article: 1473 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Latent Heat
Date: 29 Jul 1995 16:48:27 GMT
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In article <3vdj9a$g5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
   jaykjay@aol.com (JayKJay) wrote:
~~>Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
~~>heat?

Latent heat is the moisture content in the air.

     There is water vapor in the air.  If you want to take it out, you must
condense it out by passing it across a surface which is cold enough ( at 
or below dew point ) to cause water to form ( like the mirror in the
bathroom when you take a shower, or a window on a winter day.

     This condensation occurs at 100 % relative humidity.  When the air can
no longer hold any greater concentration of water vapor, the vapor will
change to a liquid.  When a vapor changes to a liquid, it gives up heat. 
This is latent heat, because the energy came from changing vapor into liquid,
not from lowering the temperature.  All refrigeration units have some effect 
on both latent and sensible heat, assuming the evaporator is below dewpoint.

  The proportion will vary according to the amount that the coil temperature
falls below dewpoint, and the time the air (with water vapor) gets to sit
on that coil and lose energy.

     In other words, the temperature ( sensible ) does not change, but
rather the energy is given up by the process of changing state from a gas
to a liquid.

     Sensible heat is that heat which you can sense ( standard temperature
 readings ).  Latent heat is that heat which you can not sense ( the heat
energy that it took to turn that water into vapor in the first place ), 
although the energy is still there.

     When you remove water from the air without changing the temperature,
 your RELATIVE humidity goes down.  You have changed the RELATIVE amount of
 LATENT HEAT (moisture) to SENSIBLE HEAT ( temperature ).

     When you raise the ( Sensible ) temperature without adding  water
vapor ( latent heat ), your RELATIVE humidity goes down, because the
RELATIONSHIP between temperature and water content has changed, in favor 
of temperature.

     If you add BOTH LATENT <and> SENSIBLE heat, your RELATIVE humidity may
stay the same, if you have maintained the same proportions. 

     Just to piss you off, all of this slides up and down the scale based
on PRESSURE ( this is how refrigeration works ), but for normal purposes, 
assume 14.7 lb atmospheric pressure.

     The total heat energy of LATENT and SENSIBLE present is called 
ENTHALPY, expressed in BTU's / pound.

Paul


From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:41 EDT 1995
Article: 1474 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 28 Jul 1995 15:12:35 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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In article <3v9p2h$h6c@newsbf02.news.aol.com> fryinbryan@aol.com (FryinBryan) writes:
 >The following scenario involves a client of ours that is experiencing
 >difficulty with a Home Warranty. The warranty was purchased when our
 >client purchased the home.  The home is at least 25 years old.  Our
 >company has already advised the client of our opinion. However, we would
 >appreciate any opinions from HVAC professionals.  Please be advised, your
 >opinion or statement may be used to support the homeowner in their
 >arguement with the Home Warranty Insurance Company:
 >
 >The residence in question is a single story, ranch style home.  The
 >original air conditioning consists of a split system, Carrier, R500
 >refrigerant air conditioner.  The air handler and evaporator coil are
 >located in the attic.
 >
 >During the summer of 1994, the air conditioning failed.  The Home Warranty
 >company was notified by the homeowner and a HVAC service company was
 >dispatched by the Home Warranty company to fix the air conditioning.
 >
 >Shortly thereafter, the HVAC company condemned the condensing unit for
 >unknown reasons and a new, R22 refrigerant condensing unit was installed. 
 >No work was performed on the air handler or evaporator coil at the time of
 >condensing unit replacement.

Proper service after a compressor failure (was it that?), especially
if it was a motor "burnout", requires a proper cleanup of the
whole system.  Acids and other debris left over from the motor
burnout will lead to early failure of the new compressor,
or plugging of the expansion devices on the inside coils or both 
in a few weeks to a few months.
Power flushing with R-11 or other solvent is the best way to
clean up the lines and inside coils..  Other methods are
installing driers and suction filters (look like orange juice
cans installed in the refrigerant lines).  After a burnout,
return trips are needed to change these devices out one or
more times along with a compressor oil test for acids to
ensure the cleanup is complete.. Failure to do this will result
in new compressors failing.

--ghg (Inventor of R-406A, drop-in substitute for R-12)
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu
http://worldserver.com/R-406A


From simon@simonw.demon.co.uk Thu Aug  3 22:45:42 EDT 1995
Article: 1475 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: simon@simonw.demon.co.uk (Simon White)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 95 18:26:41 GMT
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The general approach to the problem in the UK is to avoid the use of
open-flues gas appliances by using appliances of the balanced-flue type.

With regard to extract fans and open-flues appliances the situation is
clearly set out in Approved Document F of the Building Regulations. To
quote from same:

Interaction of mechanical extract ventilation and open-flued combustion
appliances

1.8  Mechanical extract ventilation can cause the spillage of flue gases
>from  open-flued combustion appliances in dwellings whether or not the
fan(s) or extract air terminals and combustion appliances are located in
the same room. Such spillage of flue gases is dangerous and in dwellings
where it is proposed to install open-flued appliances and mechanical
extract ventilation the appliance needs to be able to operate safely
whether or not the fan is running. For example with:

a.  gas appliances, where the appliance and the fan are located in the
kitchen, the maximum extract rate is 20 litres/second. A spillage test
as described in BS 5440: Part 1, Clause 4.3.2.3 should be carried out
whether or not the appliance and the fan are in the same room. Where a
fan causes an appliance in a different room to spill, the extract rate
may be reduced to cure the problem. (Further advice is contained in
BRE Information Paper 21/92.)

-- 
Simon White
simon@simonw.demon.co.uk


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:43 EDT 1995
Article: 1476 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Help me with this load calc, please ?
Date: 29 Jul 1995 18:59:44 GMT
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Here's one I just got through working on....

	This is a WEIRD system. 100 % roof-top air is sucked into a 
water-based air scrubber ( we haven't got to the fan yet, so the pressure 
here is negative ).  There is a pre-filter ( 90% pleat ) and steam pre-heat 
coil ( for winter only, not in effect right now ), both of which I'll 
ignore.  :~)

	After the water-scrubber, the air is sucked into the fan, and then 
expelled into  ~ 10 running linear feet of solid charcoal, HEPA, and other 
bio-active mixed-media filtration, in an 18" x 18 " plenum.  Gross static 
pressure reaches 18" water column due to restriction of water-scrubber and 
filtration, but I'll ignore that, as final WC is ~ 1", therefore I take all 
heat of compression / expansion to be a net wash for my purposes when I 
then get to the heat/cool segments at a still-strong but normal static.

	After the above, there is a 2 ton R22 AC unit to 'pre-cool' the 
roof air.  There is then a 5 ton Carrier R22 residential scroll AC, and 
then a 4KW electric element.

	Final target of the system is 70 F air at 50 % - 60 % RH, year 
round, at 500 CFM.  Yes, I said 500 CFM.  

	I just got through tuning and repairing the system such that it 
holds 70 F +/- 0.5, and 55 % RH +/- 5 %.  I hope to get that RH a little 
tighter next week, tweaking the Faircloth multiplier down just a bit.

	Controls are as follows, in equipment sequence : Steam pre-heat is 
on a Penn OA stat for winter pre-heat only.   Scrubber sump temp is 
whatever evaporation and OA and makeup temp drive it to, no control.

	 2 ton unit runs continuous, no control.

	5 ton unit has a variable hot gas bypass, which is controlled by 
pneumatics, which sense RH only.  RH sensor ( standard 3 - 15 lb) goes to 
a Barber-Coleman prop-band controller, then to a Faircloth variable 
multiplier, with final pneumatic output on the HG bypass being 0-80 lbs 
pneumatic control pressure, and minimum HG bypass pressure set at ~ 60 lbs 
suction to the 5 ton unit, to prevent ice.  TXV is set to provide minimum 
compressor cooling when in maximum bypass ( Andy, you're just gonna have
to let me slide on this one  :~) ).

	Electric reheat is under DDC PID control, for sensible heat only 
( thermistor input ).  There is <NO> interconection between the controls of 
any one piece of equipment to any other piece.

	I corrected some initial problems with this 'rig', such as : The 
low-level pneumatics were being run at 35 lbs ( instead of 20 ).  The high 
level pneumatics were being run at 120 lb ( instead of 80 ).  The RH sensor 
was <BETWEEN> the 5 ton coil and the reheat element, 6 inches from the evap 
coil, and routinely had liquid water dripping off it ( once the water falls 
<down>, does it become 'low' humidity ? :~)  ). The sensible thermistor was 
~6 inches downstream from the reheat element ( I measured >20 F laminar
stratification delta in this region ).  After I regained consciousness, 
I moved both sensors 30' downstream.  The 5 ton unit was running 300 lb 
head on a cool day, 400+ on a hot day.  Unit would cut out on head and 
thermal regularly.  Unit has had 3 compressors in 2 years ( whole system 
is two years old ).  Sight glass NEVER came even close to clear with these 
pressures, and unit has NEVER had a clear sight glass in 2 years, from what 
I've been told.  There is a solenoid in the liquid line, between the guage 
ports and the condensor.  After I evacuated the system with this solenoid 
<OPEN> ( which I don't think had ever been done ), the system now runs a 
clear glass with a 260 head on a hot summer day.  Ah, yes, the glories of 
air ( or nitrogen ) in a system !  :~(

	So anyway, on to my question...

	My intuition told me that 5 ton was hugely oversized for <ANY> 500 
CFM load.  Then I ran the numbers, and the numbers tell me that my 
intuition needs a long vacation.  Would some kind ( engineering type ) 
soul care to comment on the numbers below, please ?  This is a bit out of 
my usual area.  Please remember that some of the below are approximations 
>from  my psychrometric chart, I just want to know if my understanding is 
somewhere in the ball park.



Clean air supply system - sample load

If setpoint  =  70 F ,  50 % RH  
If input air  =  85 F,  85 % RH  
Volume is ~ 500 CFM at all times

Input = 85 F, 85 % RH = 50 btu / lb, @ 14.25 cu.ft. / lb = 105,623 BTU/HR

	because :

1 / 14.25 cu. ft. / lb = .0701... lb / cu. ft.
0701 lb / cu. ft. x 500 CFM = 35 lb / minute
35 lb / minute x 50 BTU / lb = 1754 BTU / minute
1754 BTU / minute x 60 = 105,623 BTU / HR enthalpy of input air

	MINUS

Ouput = 70 F, 50 % RH = 25 btu / lb, @ 13 .5 cu.ft. / lb  =  55,555 BTU/HR

	because :

1 / 13.5 cu. ft. / lb = .0740... lb / cu. ft.
0740 lb / cu. ft. x 500 CFM = 37 lb / minute
37 lb / minute x 25 BTU / lb = 925 BTU / minute
925 BTU / minute x 60 = 55,555 BTU / HR enthalpy of output air

PLUS :

Assume : 4 KW re-heat element runs at 50 % duty cycle
	      to maintain sensible at 70 F, under PID control

Thus 4,000 W x 3.41 BTU / W = 13640 BTUH, x 50 % cycle = 6,820 BTU / HR 

105,623  -  55,555  +  6,820  =  56,888 BTU / HR total enthalpic load

56,888 / 12,000 = 4.74 TON total combined sensible and latent load.

Therefor, 5 ton ( plus capacity from the prior 2 ton ) is rock and roll city.

I eagerly await the input of those who do this stuff for a living.

You'll have to excuse me now, I think I'm getting a headache.  :~)

Paul



From dsingh@iwaynet.net Thu Aug  3 22:45:45 EDT 1995
Article: 1477 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: David Singh <dsingh@iwaynet.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A suggestion on posting
Date: 29 Jul 1995 22:06:59 GMT
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Hi there.

-- 


David K. Singh                                           

President                               E-mail: dsingh@iwaynet.net
i-wayNET Communications, Inc.           Phone:  614.294.9292          
 "Your Internet Solution"               Fax:    614.291.1392           
                                        WWW:    http://www.iwaynet.net




From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:50 EDT 1995
Article: 1478 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help: Opinion about AC and gas furnace
Date: 30 Jul 1995 01:32:18 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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dajiang@Glue.umd.edu (Dajiang Liu) wrote:
>
>I like to hear about opinion about the following products:
>
>Janitrol  AC CKT-48-1  48k BTU
  furnace  GMPN-100-4  100k BTU
>
>Lennox  AC  HS26
gas furnace  g26
>I heard some good things about Lennox GS26 heat pump.  What is the 
economy of
>Heat pump vs gas for heating, for example in Washingto, DC area.
>Your response is highly appreciated.   Feel free to express opinion 
about other products too.

You get what you pay for. You're comparing the lowest priced brand on the 
market with one of the highest. The HS26 has a Copeland scroll compressor 
in an insulated compartment making it one of the quietest units on the 
market. The CKT has a generic Bristol reciprocating compressor sitting in 
the middle of the unit under the fan which is noisy and hard to work on. 
Not too familiar with the GMPN but had heard of venting problems. 
Probably worked out by now as that was last winter. Don't believe that 
furnace can use outside air for combustion but usually you should to keep 
household products from the heat exchangers of the super efficienct 
furnace. The G26 is simple design with reliable components. The HP26 heat 
pump is similar to the HS26 A/C. As for economy, I would bet gas is quite 
a bit cheaper. I've heard about East coast electric rates. Around here 
the heat pump would beat the gas furnace due to our super low rates. 

For something similar to the Lennox but less $$$, talk to a Rheem (or 
Ruud or WeatherKing) dealer about their new 90+ furnace and A/C. The new 
90 I think is the best high efficiency made. Super quiet, well thought 
out and designed, small & easy to install. The RAMA 12 SEER A/C has same 
Copeland scroll compressor in compartment so similarly quiet as Lennox 
but has cabinet on all sides protecting coil. Rheem's warranty isn't 
quite as good but a low priced brand that is really good. 

Quality of install is very important. Do similar research on dealer's 
references as you are on the brand!




From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:52 EDT 1995
Article: 1479 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 29 Jul 1995 19:51:35 -0400
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To be fair, I'll say that I've seen vented combustion appliances backdraft
in homes, so I know that backdrafting exists.  I view backdrafting as a
health hazard because of the potential for exposure of occupants to carbon
monoxide and other pollutants.  I'm unsure whether existing codes are
adequate -- they just might not be adequately enforced.  Homeowners are
also resonsible to some degree --furnaces must be tuned periodically so
they burn clean and efficiently.

Oh joy - another researcher studying the obvious -> another silly assed
law -> another agency to "help" us.

Mike Allenbaugh


From YGGK68A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:53 EDT 1995
Article: 1480 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ? Duct insulation
Date: 30 Jul 1995 15:45:02 GMT
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What kind of round duct is being used?

If it is spiral hp duct, I would remove the insulation and paint.

If it is lp sheet metal pipe yo may want to canvas cover then paint.

Just an opinion!


David O



From YGGK68A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:54 EDT 1995
Article: 1481 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A heating/cooling calculation program
Date: 30 Jul 1995 15:49:37 GMT
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I've always made my own using spread sheets.

I prefer the old Carrier manual form converted to a spread sheet, but I 
don't think it would take long to convert "J" either.

David



From gerryobr@nbnet.nb.ca Thu Aug  3 22:45:55 EDT 1995
Article: 1482 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: gerryobr@nbnet.nb.ca (Gerry O'Brien)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Latent Heat
Date: 30 Jul 1995 15:19:53 GMT
Organization: PC Consulting Services
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In article <3vdj9a$g5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jaykjay@aol.com says...
>
>Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
>heat?
>
>                                                                       
>Thanks

Latent heat is quite simply known as hidden heat.  It is the heat that is 
either added or removed in order to cause a change of state.  From gas to a 
liquid or liquid to a solid or vice versa.  It is the greatest heat load the a 
system will encounter.

During a change of state, you will notice no increase or decrease in 
temperature of the medium.  The temp change comes only after the change has 
occured.  To see this for yourself, try ice and water mixed together.  You will 
read a 32 deg. F temp until either the water is all frozen ot the ice is all 
melted.



From naderian@civil.uq.oz.au Thu Aug  3 22:45:56 EDT 1995
Article: 1483 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "A.Naderian" <naderian@civil.uq.oz.au>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.marine.hydrodynamics,sci.engr.manufacturing,sci.engr.lighting,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.engr.geomechanics,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.civil,sci.engr.chem,sci.engr.biomed,sci.engr.advanced-tv,sci.energy.hydrogen
Subject: Mining Conferences
Date: 31 Jul 1995 00:01:52 GMT
Organization: University of Queensland
Lines: 10
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References: <NEWTNews.11668.804751344.oksi@oksi.cerfnet.com>  <3tpr8q$pk8@news.vcd.hp.com> <3ufc2v$ph0@vail.levels.unisa.edu.au>
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.mech:16547 sci.engr.marine.hydrodynamics:497 sci.engr.manufacturing:6767 sci.engr.lighting:2543 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:1483 sci.engr.geomechanics:226 sci.engr.control:6227 sci.engr.civil:9913 sci.engr.chem:8949 sci.engr.biomed:4596 sci.energy.hydrogen:2528


Hi,

I am looking for any internt site where I can find about incoming 
geomechanics (mining,civil) conferences. I appreciate any comments.


A.Naderian




From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:45:58 EDT 1995
Article: 1484 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A heating/cooling calculation program
Date: 31 Jul 1995 00:47:44 GMT
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YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller) wrote:
>
>I've always made my own using spread sheets.
>
>I prefer the old Carrier manual form converted to a spread sheet, but I 

>don't think it would take long to convert "J" either.
>
>David
>
I wrote a simple 1-2-3 sheet from the Manual J which works great for me 
at the customer's home on my laptop. I have it set up for 7 zones 
although usually break it down by floor for simplicity since I usually 
sell replacements. My boss does the J by hand still. Couldn't believe 
when I turned in a 7 room home for him in just a few minutes. Looked at 
the Wright-J. Too complicated for me. The customers usually don't look at 
sizing, just $$.



From ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:45:59 EDT 1995
Article: 1485 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-12 to R134a Automobile conversion?
Date: 31 Jul 1995 07:38:05 GMT
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Oops, haste makes waste. Second paragraph corrected.

After a trip to my friendly auto parts store today, I was disturbed to 
discover the lack of materials in their A/C supplies for converting my 
R-12 system to R-134a.

I could not find labels (indicating a conversion) and replacement 
fittings, only 1/4 and 3/16 MFF, not the (standard?) R-134a fittings I 
found on my 1993 GM car. 

My normal sources do not carry automotive components, therefore, is there 
an automotive A/C parts supplier I can recommend to my local auto parts 
supplier?

Cheers,
Joseph Benning
--
ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu---------/.\-----Northeastern Illinois University
Joseph A. Benning              / \:/ \       Chicago, Illinois, USA 60625  
                             /   [ ]   \
"I've seen it before Joe.../   /{x.x}\   \...You're an Internet junkie; 
    Roadkill, on the     /        U        \ Information Super Highway!"


From tomkow@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:00 EDT 1995
Article: 1486 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tomkow@nando.net (Tomkow)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Programmable Thermostats
Date: 31 Jul 1995 08:10:12 -0400
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Reply-To: tomkow@nando.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.nando.net

Hello,
    
I have been considering using a programmable thermostat for my home.  
These units promise energy savings by allowing automatic adjustment 
periodically throughout the day/week/weekend.  My questions are:

	1)  Is there really an advantage to constantly varying the
	    temperature?
	2)  If there is an advantage, what would the optimum temperature
	    difference?

These questions are asked with repsect to the these conditions: lowest 
temp at night, warmest temp during day while no one is home, and in 
between those temps after work/before bed.

The home in question is a 2250 sq ft 2 story with dual zone A/C in North 
Carolina.  Thanks in advance for your expertise.

Bill Tomko


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:00 EDT 1995
Article: 1487 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 31 Jul 1995 03:36:50 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
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In <3vebd5$1t9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>In article <3vdlnm$meb@Twain.MO.NET> aschoen@mo.net writes:
> >
> >Paul, as you may know, converting R-500 a/c systems to R-22 is not an
> >uncommon practice nowadays.  Consider the following problems when one
> >has to service an R-500 unit: (1) try finding R-500 refrigerant.  It is
> >doable, but not easy.  Then try paying for it.  :-) (2) try finding a
> >'drop-in' replacement for R-500.  Perhaps refrigerant R-401B (MP66) is
> >as close as you are going to get but, IMHO, R-401B doesn't solve your
>
>R-406A has also been used by quite a few as a drop-in for R-500.
>No oil or metering device changes.

George, expansion device sizing wouldn't seem to be a problem going
>from  R-500 to R-406A.  But in the case of a TEV, I doubt you would have
enough adjustment range in the valve to compensate for the differences
in pressure.  The dew point curve of R-406A (from the last publication
I have on the refrigerant) shows it to be significantly below that
of R-500.  A 'power head' change would be in order.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:02 EDT 1995
Article: 1488 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: R-12 to R134a Automobile conversion?
Date: 31 Jul 1995 05:09:04 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
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After a trip to my friendly auto parts store today, I was disturbed to 
discover the lack of materials in their A/C supplies for converting my 
R-12 system to R-134a.

I could not find labels (indicating a conversion) and replacement 
fittings, only 1/4 and 5/16 MFF, not the (standard?) R-134a fittings I 
found on my 1993 GM car.

My normal sources do not carry automotive components, therefore, is there 
an automotive A/C parts supplier I can recommend to my local auto parts 
supplier?

Cheers,
Joseph Benning
--
ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu---------/.\-----Northeastern Illinois University
Joseph A. Benning              / \:/ \       Chicago, Illinois, USA 60625  
                             /   [ ]   \
"I've seen it before Joe.../   /{x.x}\   \...You're an Internet junkie; 
    Roadkill, on the     /        U        \ Information Super Highway!"


From YGGK68A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:03 EDT 1995
Article: 1489 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: A heating/cooling calculation program
Date: 31 Jul 1995 13:20:10 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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Distribution: world
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BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills) wrote:
>
>YGGK68A@prodigy.com (David Oller) wrote:
>>
>>I've always made my own using spread sheets.
>>
>>I prefer the old Carrier manual form converted to a spread sheet, but I 

>
>>don't think it would take long to convert "J" either.
>>
>>David
>>
>I wrote a simple 1-2-3 sheet from the Manual J which works great for me 

>at the customer's home on my laptop. I have it set up for 7 zones 
>although usually break it down by floor for simplicity since I usually 
>sell replacements. My boss does the J by hand still. Couldn't believe 
>when I turned in a 7 room home for him in just a few minutes. Looked at 

>the Wright-J. Too complicated for me. The customers usually don't look 
at 
>sizing, just $$.
>
Hi John, how is it going?

Well, It's been awhile since I was working with that type of customer. 
Every now and then I take a project with a Service Contractor who wants 
to build or improve his service department, however. Mostly I do Quality 
Control and Consulting work these days. But, I believe in a different 
theory than the almighty buck.

I used to have this competitor who would make his sales by giving the 
customer a slighty larger unit for the same price. I did two things to 
shoot him aout of the saddle:

1. Educated the customer on the efficiency dynamics of oversizing.

2. Gave the customer a detailed plan on my duct design. And explained to 
them the sound, efficiency, longevity advantages of properly designed 
duct work. We also devveloped a reputation for balancing our systems and 
providing even temperatures throughout the house.

Educating the customer can overcome price objections. Using your laptop 
creates a more professional image. Price isn't everything unless the 
contractor makes it that way.

I found this:

Some people go for lowest price.
Some people buy the highest price.
A good number purchase value.

Don't pander to the tightwads--getting the right customers (the ones who 
expect to pay) is the key. Don't be afraid to lose the cheapskates--give 
them away freely to your competition. Improve your exposure and marketing 
until you have an adequate number of *good* customers. Quit trying to 
please the problem customers--that really only want to manipulate you 
into working for free.

This is how you build a sound company.

David O



From n7tcf@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:04 EDT 1995
Article: 1490 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!usenet
From: n7tcf@primenet.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Programmable Thermostats
Date: 31 Jul 1995 13:23:22 GMT
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3vilgb$itl@nnrp2.primenet.com>
References: <3vih74$jih@merlin.nando.net>
Reply-To: n7tcf@primenet.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip089.phx.primenet.com
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2

    
>I have been considering using a programmable thermostat for my home.  
>These units promise energy savings by allowing automatic adjustment 
>periodically throughout the day/week/weekend.  My questions are:
>
>	1)  Is there really an advantage to constantly varying the
>	    temperature?
>	2)  If there is an advantage, what would the optimum temperature
>	    difference?
>The home in question is a 2250 sq ft 2 story with dual zone A/C in North 
>Carolina.  Thanks in advance for your expertise.
>
>Bill Tomko
	<Note, I have edited the original some.>
	I used the inexpensive Hunter stat at my home for many years. It had a good
feature that kept runtime totals, daily and monthly. This allowed you to judge your
energy-saving, taking into account the varying loads.
	Cooling:
	I found setting +5 was OK, more than that and recovery time washed out the
savings. Setting lower at night did not help at all. My house did not retain the lower
temp long enough to save anything.
	Heating:
	I had a heat pump, which work best when the sun is up. So I did the majority
of the heating from 10AM to 3PM. Solar gain is highest then. At 10PM the unit dropped
5 degrees. Heating is not a big deal here in Phoenix so my experiance here is limited.

	Tips:
	Gas and electric furnance recover quickly, heat pumps and a/c are slow.
Setting wide temperature spans usually return no savings.
	Some units aren't able to run a heat pump without an accessory relay. Hunter
was one of these. Current models may have corrected this.
	
Jim Sullivan


From n7tcf@primenet.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:05 EDT 1995
Article: 1491 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: n7tcf@primenet.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: R22 replacements, why?
Date: 31 Jul 1995 13:27:23 GMT
Organization: Primenet
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I am puzzled why there is a need for an R22 replacement. The refrigerant will remain
in production for 25 years. During that time we discover that it's ozone depletion is
not significant or even scrap the Montreal Protocols.
	Some commercial and industrial machines may have a 20+ year lifespan, even
so, those units will be nearly ready for replacement.
	So what am I missing?

Jim Sullivan


From robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:06 EDT 1995
Article: 1492 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com (Robert Eden)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: gas AND electric heat in same house?
Message-ID: <1995Jul31.082607.762@cpvax.cpses.tu.com>
Date: 31 Jul 95 08:26:07 CST
Organization: Texas Utilities, Glen Rose TX 
Lines: 19

Howdy All..

I'm still house-hunting (actually under contract) and came across
something I think is really unusual.

The house has two units: the upstairs unit has electric heat and the
downstairs unit has gas.  Is this normal?  Why didn't they use gas
in the upstairs unit?

Both units sit about 3 feet from each other in the same attic. (It can't
be due to problems of running a gas line.)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Eden    817-897-0491                                 Glen Rose, TX
Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station            robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ politicese for a nuke plant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



From LVDUANE@SCIVAX.LERC.NASA.GOV Thu Aug  3 22:46:07 EDT 1995
Article: 1493 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!lvduane.lerc.nasa.gov!user
From: LVDUANE@SCIVAX.LERC.NASA.GOV (Duane Beach)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water mist for cooling outdoors??
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:50:49 -0400
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <LVDUANE-3107951150490001@lvduane.lerc.nasa.gov>
References: <cwilliams-2707951345310001@163.185.26.35>
NNTP-Posting-Host: lvduane.lerc.nasa.gov

In article <cwilliams-2707951345310001@163.185.26.35>,
cwilliams@houston.wireline.slb.com (Cecil Williams) wrote:

> I understand that in the hot & dry parts of the U.S., like around Phoenix,
> Arizona, that  a fine water mist will make the heat a bit more bearable
> outdoors. I am looking for a source of these water atomizers or misting
> devices. Any experience with this type of outdoor cooling would be
> appreciated?
> 
> Cecil Williams
> Sugar Land, TX

.. was in phoenix last week (118+) and noticed these by a restaurant
patio.  It was simply a pipe with several fine mist heads suspended about
8 feet in the air around the perimeter and spraying slightly away from the
tables.  It was noticably cooler at the tables.

-- 
Duane Beach
LVDUANE@SCIVAX.LERC.NASA.GOV


From LALZ60A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:08 EDT 1995
Article: 1494 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: LALZ60A@prodigy.com (Victoria Kamm)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R22 replacements, why?
Date: 31 Jul 1995 15:59:38 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
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X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

Jim Sullivan writes:

>
>I am puzzled why there is a need for an R22 replacement. The refrigerant 
will remain
>in production for 25 years. During that time we discover that it's ozone 
depletion is
>not significant or even scrap the Montreal Protocols.
>	Some commercial and industrial machines may have a 20+ year lifespan, 
even
>so, those units will be nearly ready for replacement.
>	So what am I missing?
>

While it is true that  production will continue for another 25 years (35 
years actually since the HCFC phaseout is currently 2030).  However, we 
need to take into account the phaseout schedule as it can affect our 
customers ability to purchase the refrigerant when they need it down the 
road.

The schedule is based on 1989 production +/-.  Reductions begin in 2005.
 
          Year                          Capacity
           2004                         100%
           2005                           65%
           2010                           35%
           2015                           10%
           2020                          0.5%
           2030                           0.0%

As capacity declines with no difference in demand, price increases.  
Simple economics.  Now where on this chart will your customers stop being 
able to afford new R-22 purchases?  

Of course, if you have equipment with a 20+ year lifespan that is 
operating normally it would be foolish to replace it.  Any R-12 or R-502 
equipment that is working this year shouldn't be replaced only because 
the CFC phaseout is the end of this year.  Once again, simple economics.

While it's possible the Montreal Protocol will no longer be needed in 25 
years, I think it is imperative as professionals in this industry to 
present all the information we possibly can to our customers/staffs and 
help them make choices.  This is an opportunity to take the lead in the 
transition because we are experts instead of allowing the government 
another chance to regulate us.

Victoria Kamm
 





From genepool@netcom.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:10 EDT 1995
Article: 1495 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uop!csus.edu!netcom.com!genepool
From: genepool@netcom.com (Jim Michael)
Subject: A/C makes temp go up [again]
Message-ID: <genepoolDCL83A.G1D@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:52:22 GMT
Lines: 21
Sender: genepool@netcom9.netcom.com

A few weeks ago I posted an article in which I stated the temp in my 
house went up when the a/c went on. Some interesting theories were
given (air mixing, hot air pulled into thermostat from attic, etc.).

I had a technician check a couple of things and need advice on what to
do next. Background: Last year we replaced the entire refrigerant section
of our a/c (condenser unit, lines, evaporator coil). We wound up with a
3.5 ton unit where we had a 3 ton unit, based on advice of one contractor.
The next contractor (long story) did a more thorough analysis and suggested
adding at least 1 new intake, which we did. 

According to the technician, there is an 18.6 degree drop across the coil.
"The pressures are strange, 80 psi suction and a fluctuating head pressure
between 170 and 200 psig". 

The unit is a Carrier. Is the temp differential normal for the unit 
(78.8-60.8) and what could be causing the fluctuating head pressure?

Thanks,

Jim


From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:11 EDT 1995
Article: 1496 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions (now R-500/R-406A)
Date: 31 Jul 1995 18:27:43 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3vj7av$hr1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <3vdlnm$meb@Twain.MO.NET> <3vebd5$1t9@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <3vhj4i$4t8@Twain.MO.NET>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu


In article <3vhj4i$4t8@Twain.MO.NET> aschoen@mo.net writes:
>>
>>R-406A has also been used by quite a few as a drop-in for R-500.
>>No oil or metering device changes.
>
>George, expansion device sizing wouldn't seem to be a problem going
>from R-500 to R-406A.  But in the case of a TEV, I doubt you would have
>enough adjustment range in the valve to compensate for the differences
>in pressure.  The dew point curve of R-406A (from the last publication
>I have on the refrigerant) shows it to be significantly below that
>of R-500.  A 'power head' change would be in order.
>
>Andy Schoen
>aschoen@mo.net
>

Although the static pressures of 406A are higher than 12 (82psig @ 70F),
things come right down when the system is started up.  Due to the glide,
the head pressure on 406A is sometimes lower than R-12.  I have never
put 406A in a R-500 system, these are just reports I got back
>from  users.. Most of them were in cap tube systems.. the users
seemed happy.  We have even had users change out R-502 systems
(cargo reefers) to R-406A! (after we told them not to)  All they changed 
was the TXV and the pressure controls.. no compressor change!  One would 
think the compressor displacement would way low for this.. but they
were happy and I didnt argue with them.

Purdue just lost chilled water campus wide.. valve broke and the whole 
loop dumped into the holding pond.. going down now
--ghg


From shammatt@sos.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:12 EDT 1995
Article: 1497 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!nwfocus1.wa.com!nwfocus.wa.com!cleese.nas.com!news
From: shammatt@sos.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: fixed orifice steam traps
Date: 31 Jul 1995 19:20:07 GMT
Organization: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon, WA USA
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3vjad7$46r@cleese.nas.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup19.sos.net
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

I believe it was this group wherein someone wrote and asked
about fixed-orifice steam traps.  In fact, I sent a reply to the author.
I was just going through the current catalog of AEE Energy Books and
noticed a new listing for "The Steam Trap Handbook" by Mr. James f.
McCauley, P.E.  Chapter 7 is titled: The Orifice Steam Trap.  In the book
description this is referred to as "...Also examined is the experience of
both utility companies and the U.S. Navy with the controversial "fixed
orifice" steam trap."  The book is available through the Assoc. of
Energy Engineers at 404-925-9558.

(Usual disclaimers apply, I have not interest in any of the above)

Steve Hammatt


From Gary.Cunningham@internetMCI.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:14 EDT 1995
Article: 1498 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Gary Cunningham <Gary.Cunningham@internetMCI.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Let's reconsider solar heating and cooling!
Date: 30 Jul 1995 21:21:46 GMT
Organization: InternetMCI
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <3vgt5a$aaa@news.internetmci.com>
References: <3ugg57$2bn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3v0emg$qut@mack.rt66.com> <3v2rba$egh@maverick.tad.eds.com>
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wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com (Will Stewart) wrote:
>
>
>
What about Geothermal.  It is already here, it uses the earth to cool and heat coolant (water).  We use it in Texas.



From obrien@hevanet.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:15 EDT 1995
Article: 1499 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!ukma!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!pacifier!rainrgnews0!hevanet.com!st-ppp00.hevanet.com!user
From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Let's reconsider solar heating and cooling!
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:41:59 -0800
Organization: O'Brien & Associates
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <obrien-3107951542000001@st-ppp00.hevanet.com>
References: <3ugg57$2bn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3v0emg$qut@mack.rt66.com> <3v2rba$egh@maverick.tad.eds.com> <3vgt5a$aaa@news.internetmci.com>
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.architecture.alternative:4145 alt.energy.renewable:8179 sci.energy:35309 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:1499 talk.environment:34365

In article <3vgt5a$aaa@news.internetmci.com>, Gary Cunningham
<Gary.Cunningham@internetMCI.com> wrote:

> What about Geothermal.  It is already here, it uses the earth to cool
and heat coolant (water).  We use it in Texas.

Geothermal (Water Furnace, Florida, and similar) works very well here in
Oregon, for space heating, cooling and water heating, but it is expensive.
Costs anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000 for one house. Is it cheaper in
Texas?

-- 
Mike


From mg_ivanovich@pnl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:46:17 EDT 1995
Article: 1500 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mg_ivanovich@pnl.gov (Mike Ivanovich)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 08:55:50 -0700
Organization: Battelle PNL
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <mg_ivanovich-3107950855500001@mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov>
References: <mg_ivanovich-2807950942170001@mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov> <3vehi7$p5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov

In article <3vehi7$p5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
wrote:

> To be fair, I'll say that I've seen vented combustion appliances backdraft
> in homes, so I know that backdrafting exists.  I view backdrafting as a
> health hazard because of the potential for exposure of occupants to carbon
> monoxide and other pollutants.  I'm unsure whether existing codes are
> adequate -- they just might not be adequately enforced.  Homeowners are
> also resonsible to some degree --furnaces must be tuned periodically so
> they burn clean and efficiently.
> 
> Oh joy - another researcher studying the obvious -> another silly assed
> law -> another agency to "help" us.
> 
> Mike Allenbaugh


Mike A. -- from your posts to other messages on this board, I would have
expected something more from you than a flame if you were going to respond
at all.  I gather from your posts that you have experience and a firm
grasp of reality that could help check pie-in-the-sky solutions.  I'm
disappointed that you so casually dismissed my inquiry.

I think its obvious that backdrafting exists and that it's a health hazard. 
But there are many who contend that backdrafting is a needle in a haystack
-- and that air coming down the chimney is diluted with outside air to the
extent that it is not a health hazard, or if high levels of CO are found,
the chance for exposure that induces health effects is so miniscule, that
it hardly merits any attention at all.

In other words, researchers have to be prepared to present a case with
much more in hand than a statement as to what they think is obvious.

And so I'm inquiring you -- and others that read this board -- to offer
both sides of the issue.  I've seen and heard backdrafting/CO argued
between researchers and industry representatives, but not among the people
who install systems or among those that respond to occupant complaints of
CO.

What's obvious to you, Mike?   Like you, I think that the U.S. has
probably 2 billion laws we could do without -- that "law is suffocating
America" (from the very persuasive book, Death of Common Sense).  So,
then,apart from laws, how are problems, like backdrafting eventually
resolved?  Getting to solutions of that nature requires digging --
thinking -- communicating.  Communicating -- like asking those out in the
field what they are experiencing -- asking them if they have ideas for
solutions, etc.  This newsserver could be a great forum for batting around
good ideas and experiences.

I hope to hear from you again.

Mike I.

-- 
_________________________________________________
Mike Ivanovich, Senior Research Scientist, PNL 
Opinions expressed are my own, but you're welcome to them.
email:  mg_ivanovich@pnl.gov
phone:  (509) 375-4584        fax:  (509) 375-3641


From matthews@wfu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:18 EDT 1995
Article: 1501 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.wfu.edu!matthews
From: matthews@wfu.edu (Rick Matthews)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Programmable Thermostats
Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:54:05 GMT
Organization: Wake Forest University
Lines: 47
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References: <3vih74$jih@merlin.nando.net>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Tomkow (tomkow@nando.net) wrote:
: Hello,
:     
: I have been considering using a programmable thermostat for my home.  
: These units promise energy savings by allowing automatic adjustment 
: periodically throughout the day/week/weekend.  My questions are:

: 	1)  Is there really an advantage to constantly varying the
: 	    temperature?
: 	2)  If there is an advantage, what would the optimum temperature
: 	    difference?

: These questions are asked with repsect to the these conditions: lowest 
: temp at night, warmest temp during day while no one is home, and in 
: between those temps after work/before bed.

: The home in question is a 2250 sq ft 2 story with dual zone A/C in North 
: Carolina.  Thanks in advance for your expertise.

: Bill Tomko

I, too, am in North Carolina.  I use a programmable thermostat to take
best advantage of time-of-day rates from Duke Power.  By shifting all
my heating off-peak, I am able to achieve a reduction of more than 40%
in my kW-hr costs.  I program a 10-degree setback from 7:00 a.m. to
noon (winter peak hours), effectively turning off the system for five
hours each weekday.  This offers the additional advantage is that the
heat pump makes up the deficit in the early afternoon when it is most
efficient.

Without time-of-day rates, I doubt I would use a programmable thermostat.

If you have a well-insulated house, I highly recommend looking into
time-of-day rates.  My house is 4400 square feet and has R-30
insulation in the attic and R-27 in the walls.  Windows are standard
double-glazing.  My highest monthly bill occurs in January, and is
less than $110.  My lowest bill occurs in spring or fall, and is
typically $75-$80, which gives you an idea of the energy I use for
lights and hot water.  Since both lighting and hot water costs (our
city supplies river water at colder temperatures in January) are
higher in January, you can deduce that I spend very little on heat.

--
Rick Matthews                     matthews@wfu.edu            Ham radio:
Wake Forest University            910-759-5340   (Voice)      WA4GSP
Winston-Salem, NC 27109-7507      910-759-6142   (FAX)



From robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:19 EDT 1995
Article: 1502 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!cpvax!robert
From: robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com (Robert Eden)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: short cycling on air conditioning
Message-ID: <1995Aug1.102338.763@cpvax.cpses.tu.com>
Date: 1 Aug 95 10:23:38 CST
References: <3u3j1n$rou@seminole.gate.net>
Organization: Texas Utilities, Glen Rose TX 
Lines: 53

In article <3u3j1n$rou@seminole.gate.net>, jdresner@news.gate.net (Jerry M. Dresner) writes:
> I live in an apartment of 1500 sq ft under air conditiong, in Florida, 
> with a volume ceiling.  The apartment is 5 years old.  The last week I 
> have noticed the unusually frequent cycling of the ac.  It is on between 
> 3 and 5 minutes and off for 10 minutes.

Others know more, but I learn so much from this forum I might as well
answer one ( I think ) can.

Have the maintenance people come in and measure the AC pressures. 

Measure the temperature at the intake and the output vent closest to the
unit.  If the difference is 15-20 degrees, it's probably doing the best
it can.  (If it fails this test, hassle the office to fix the A/C)

Clean the coils behind (or under) your fridge.  Feel them when the Fridge
is running... are they warm?  If not, call the office.

Do you have windows on the west side?  I bet your neighbors don't.
Are you on the top floor, are your neighbors?

BTW... buy a blanket for your hot water heater.  It helped me.


General Comment:
Apartments built after the late 70's have been designed for individual 
electric meters.  There is no benefit and a financial dis-incentive to 
the apartment complex to put in efficient appliances or adequately insulate
the walls or ceiling.  My experiences here in TX show that the younger the
complex, the worse the efficiency.

I'm in the process of moving from a 800 sq ft apartment to a 2500 sq ft
home.  Wanna guess which one has the cheapest electric bill? (My apartment
can't get below 80-85 during the summer day, so it's not even a fair test.)

The only way this could change is to make it beneficial for the builders
of apartments to care about the utility costs.  This can be done with
regulations and codes (yuck) or through marketing.  One area I used to 
live in offered efficiency ratings of apartment complexes that they could
use in advertising.  Unfortunately, my own company doesn't do this.

One thing that is available at least in Texas is the utility may give out
the high,low, and average electric bill for the past year.  This is not
common knowledge, but it is available (I tried it before I signed 
on the house!)

Whew... Now I need to cool down.. (lucky I'm not home!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Eden    817-897-0491                                 Glen Rose, TX
Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station            robert@cpvax.cpses.tu.com
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ politicese for a nuke plant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:20 EDT 1995
Article: 1503 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com (Will Stewart)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re: solar heating and cooling!
Date: 31 Jul 1995 14:56:40 GMT
Organization: EDS-DEIS
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3viqv8$ijd@maverick.tad.eds.com>
References: <3ugg57$2bn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3v0emg$qut@mack.rt66.com> <3v2rba$egh@maverick.tad.eds.com> <3v5q22$ji1@hpaneqb4.an.hp.com> <3v8lp1$ocd@bbs. <obrien-2807951135010001@vi-ppp01.hevanet.com>
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In article <obrien-2807951135010001@vi-ppp01.hevanet.com>, obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) says:

>
>In our energy-efficient home program, Super Good Cents,

I'd like to find out more about this, please email me an overview.

>Some places,
>like Sacramento, have utility- and city-sponsored programs to upgrade
>street trees and landscape trees to large shade trees that are wonderful
>for cooling. A $200 tree can provide the cooling equivalent of over a ton
>of air conditioning, for free.

I am finding that planning to have PVs on the roof is preventing me from 
taking this route.  Though the design does provide eaves designed to block 
direct solar window gain in the summer, other solar loads still remain.
Of course, if the net electrical consumption is less with shade trees, then
a rethinking of my energy management plan is in order.  

>Personally, I like low-tech solutions that are practical and affordable.
>In my experience, people just won't give up their chandeliers and
>fireplaces for solar gizmos, but they will spend a few bucks for something
>that has an apparent benefit.

Actually, I am giving up the chandeliers (but keeping the fireplace hearth for
backup heat) for solar gizmos (passive heat, active hot water, PVs, high 
efficiency appliances).  My solar engineering coursework along with my perception
of future energy directions has motivated me to reconsider the usual architectural
and interior approaches.

Regards,

William R. Stewart, Jr	(Will)      "Don't worry, be happy"  - Bobby McFarren
wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com   (703)760-0239


From wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:21 EDT 1995
Article: 1504 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.ultranet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.internex.net!agis!vtc.tacom.army.mil!news1.oakland.edu!newshub.gmr.com!hobbes.tad.eds.com!maverick.tad.eds.com!news-admin@tad.eds.com
From: wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com (Will Stewart)
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re:  solar heating and cooling
Date: 31 Jul 1995 14:43:14 GMT
Organization: EDS-DEIS
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3viq62$ijd@maverick.tad.eds.com>
References: <3ugg57$2bn@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> <3v0emg$qut@mack.rt66.com> <3v2rba$egh@maverick.tad.eds.com> <3vb0e7$1rp@news.duke.edu>
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In article <3vb0e7$1rp@news.duke.edu>, "Charles E. Reese" <reese@chem.duke.edu> says:

>Have you considered underground storage in static aquafers?  The idea is to
>have two wells, in the summer pump solar heated water into the deeper well
>and pump cold water out of the upper well.  In the winter you reverse the
>flow recovering your hot water for heating and storing cold water for the
>next summer.  If the water table is reasonably high then you almost don't
>need a pump in the winter.  I have seen where large quantities of summer heated
>water is stored in old mines in Sweden for use as winter heat.

Do you have any references, findings, or POCs for these projects?  I would very much
like to find out more, especially lessons learned, empirical data, suitable ground
conditions, etc.

Thanks,
 
William R. Stewart, Jr	(Will)      "Don't worry, be happy"  - Bobby McFarren
wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com   (703)760-0239


From davidmarc@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:22 EDT 1995
Article: 1505 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: davidmarc@aol.com (DavidMarc)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Wet dog odors from heat pumps
Date: 1 Aug 1995 12:11:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 2
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Anybody have any experience on a wet dog or smelly sock odor from a heat
pump in a commercial office building?


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:23 EDT 1995
Article: 1506 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.mathworks.com!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!grail1201
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 1 Aug 1995 01:31:31 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <3vim1g$ook_002@grail1201.nando.net>
References: <mg_ivanovich-2807950942170001@mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov> <3vehi7$p5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <mg_ivanovich-3107950855500001@mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov>
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In article <mg_ivanovich-3107950855500001@mg_ivanovich.pnl.gov>,
   mg_ivanovich@pnl.gov (Mike Ivanovich) wrote:

~~>I think its obvious that backdrafting exists and that it's a health hazard. 
~~>But there are many who contend that backdrafting is a needle in a haystack

	I've never heard this statement before, and I'm amazed that anyone
would present it.  The point is not the OA coming down the flue ( which you
would breath outside anyway ), it's the combustion gases introduced into
the living space, and the roll-out fire hazard.

	Roll-out can EASILY light a building and kill people.  Especially
considering how many idiots who pretend to be service techs run around
bypassing safeties.  This is not a 'needle', unless maybe the one you sit on,
which suddenly takes on a greater signifigance in your life than the one
you missed.  :~(

~~>-- and that air coming down the chimney is diluted with outside air to the
~~>extent that it is not a health hazard, or if high levels of CO are found,
~~>the chance for exposure that induces health effects is so miniscule, that
~~>it hardly merits any attention at all.

	Crap and more crap.  Are there actually people who say this and
mean it ?  Tell it to the two people who died from back-drafted CO
in Raleigh, NC, a few years ago.  Tell it to the many others who died.

	Mike I., can you tell us where you hear people saying this ?
Are they industry people ?  In what forums can they propound this deadly
nonsense ?

Paul


From Hahn@HRZ.Uni-Marburg.de Thu Aug  3 22:46:24 EDT 1995
Article: 1507 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Hahn@HRZ.Uni-Marburg.de (Dr. H. Hahn)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: sterling engine
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:21:25 GMT
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Is there a news-group concerning sterling engines ?
Please E-Mail me to: hahn@hrz.uni-marburg.de


From vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za Thu Aug  3 22:46:25 EDT 1995
Article: 1508 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Craig van der Walt <vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: (no subject)
Date: 1 Aug 1995 10:06:35 GMT
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Hi I'm looking for information about a company that produces 
refrigeration gas leak detection systems.  The system uses a UV lamp to 
trace leaks.  I think the companies name is H.B. Fuller

Any leads please.

PS: What is the general feeling about UV detection ?

Regards 
Craig van der Walt
vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za



From dxy55@cas.org Thu Aug  3 22:46:26 EDT 1995
Article: 1509 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dxy55@cas.org (Dennis Yep)
Subject: Furnace coil
Message-ID: <1995Aug1.134457.7149@chemabs.uucp>
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I am an absolute beginner. What is a furnace coil, and how does
it help with a home central air conditioning system?
-- 

   |  Dennis Yep
   |  Chemical Abstracts Service
   |  Opinions expressed are mine and not that of my employer


From eloehr@mail.utexas.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:27 EDT 1995
Article: 1510 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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You might try the Rocknet WWW page.  The URL is 
http://sair019.energylan.sandia.gov:70/0/RockNet/rocknet.html




From itplus@mail.leba.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:28 EDT 1995
Article: 1511 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: itplus@mail.leba.net (Ron Therrien)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Heat pump hookup to Home Automation
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:53:50 -0500
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I have a Homebase system(has relay type outputs and is programmable) that
I want to control my HVAC (heat pump) and am unsure of the wiring. It's a
York system. I would also like to cycle the compressor/heat pump on and of
in the most efficient manor as possible. Does anybody know of any wiring
diagrams or articles out there? Thanks!

-- 
Kathy Aumiller
InfoTravel Plus


From jaredm@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:28 EDT 1995
Article: 1512 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jaredm@aol.com (JaredM)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 1 Aug 1995 21:59:34 -0400
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In article <3vmf5a$cca@overload.lbl.gov>, envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov (David A.
Jump) writes:

>Is it true that an induced-draft furnace (maybe we need a glossary of
terms!)
>draws inlet air for combustion from the space surrounding it? 

Most, if not all 80% furnaces are induced draft (there are a few
exceptions) and use the space surronding them for combustion air.  This is
the reason for the ventilation requirements that are clearly spelled out
in the paperwork for every furance sold today. Sadly, these ventilation
requirements are rarely enforced, at least in my area.  When I say
ventilation here I am talking about ventilation for combustion and not
fresh air for the occupants.  Most 90% furnaces have the ability to be
sealed combustion, meaning that air for supporting combustion is brought
directly to the combustion chamber.  Some 90% furnaces are able to use the
air in the utility room, however unwise that may seem.

>I'm not exactly sure what a draft prover is.  Does it provide OA directly
to
>the furnace, effectively separating the combustion air from the house?

The draft prover in this case is a micro switch connected to a diaghram
that senses a slight negative and/or positive pressure created by the
draft inducer fan.  The ignition sequence is started after this sensor
makes a circuit proving that the fan is on and creating a draft.  These
switches fail with some regularity.  Because there are a number of brands
and models of furnaces that the typical residential service tech
encounters, it would be next to impossible to stock every one on a truck. 
Hence the temptation, as Paul mentioned, to jump the switch creating a
potentially dangerous situation.  The same applies to roll out switches
and spill switches. 

 I find that in many case these switches are simply doing their job due to
a weak or marginal draft.  Of course they are immediately blamed because
they are the obvious problem, not the true underlying one.  For example, I
remember last winter having a furnace that occasionally went out on the
draft prover, it would relight, run for a number of minutes and then fail
again.  Another company blamed the draft prover, it was replaced and the
problem remained.  I found a mouse and two birds in the flue pipe between
the furnace and chimney.  I also remember that customer complaining about
our service bill, we were a bit higher than the other firm.  Some people
can't see the trees through the woods.


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:29 EDT 1995
Article: 1513 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: I need to buy books
Date: 1 Aug 1995 01:21:26 GMT
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	Like the Trane A/C manual, and a set of AHSRAE Fundamentals.

	They don't have to be current versions, I just need to add them
to my collection of reference stuff.

	Anyone got an old copy of these they want to sell cheap ?  Good
condition only, please.  :~)

	I already have the full ACCA and Copeland sets, and some others,
all I need right now are the ones listed above.

	Please email if interested.
Thanks

Paul


From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:30 EDT 1995
Article: 1514 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 31 Jul 1995 21:46:44 -0400
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OK - you're right - I came on pretty strong. We do see a lot of buildings
that are running at negative pressure (residences included because of
exhaust fans, vent fans, range hoods, etc.).

Seems that negative pressure is usually considered when a building is
erected but future modifications often fail to take into account any
changes in the static pressure that may result. I think the solutions are
usually obvious (hence my remark) but obviously some of us are not doing
the obvious.

I have become an advocate of induced draft for any unit that burns fuel
inside the structure because they work in spite of most building problems.
I doubt that you have seen a backdraft in a system where an exhaust fan
and a draft prover were used. The new higher efficiency furnaces take this
into account and solve the problem for that one unit even if not for the
entire building.

A commercial building using economizers is a moving target because of the
varying use of outside air. Most economisers only change the amount of
outside air entering the building - some of the better engineers and
contractors on this forum probably adjust exhaust air to closely match
intake air but it is not real common. It is very hard to sell.

I installed several good size units and a bunch of smaller ones in a
hospital where the pressures must be closely monitored and controlled in
order to exhaust air that may be carrying undesired microorganisms. I
thought it was interesting that we had to install additional separate
venting for rooms designated for patients with airborne contagious
diseases when it was already the rule for the entire hospital.

This was my complaint about extra law - we took rooms that met the code in
every way except for the fact that they were designed correctly in the
first place. The law does not allow for that. We had to install additional
venting because we were required to have the hardware attached to the
room. In our case we didn't even have to turn the new equipment on in
order to comply with the law but we did have to install it and verify IN
WRITING - DAILY that EACH affected room was venting properly.

My experience has been that static pressure sensors are not very linear or
reliable so it takes a lot of care to keep a large building balanced out.
With the advent of tighter residential construction I think it would be
nice to have an "off the shelf" item to test for  pressure inside and
outside the house.

Finally - In a large building you may have doors blowing open or doors
that are hard to open or even people with unexplained allergies but the
three families who died in this county last year died at home breathing
fumes from their own furnaces.

Hopefully, your solution will be elegant (simple) and usable in residences
where people die as well as in larger buildings where we may be
inconvenienced or even become ill.

Please forgive me for the flame - I went off 7/16 cocked.

Mike Allenbaugh


From wb8foz@netcom.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:32 EDT 1995
Article: 1515 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Subject: US Power double loop HP system
Message-ID: <wb8fozDCLwoy.1JC@netcom.com>
Summary: both loops liquid?
Keywords: heat pump, ground source, 
Reply-To: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews Abusers - Beltway Annex
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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 00:43:46 GMT
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Hello:

Friends are installing a ground source system in their 4kft^2
log cabin (No, I'm NOT kidding..) in the DC area.

The cabin has radiant heat embedded in the concrete basement floor,
and 1st floor subfloor. Fancoil units supplement this for heating &
also serve for cooling.

My query is about the USPower Corp HP. If I understand correctly, the
underground "condenser" loop is ?PEV? plastic and IT circulates a
water/?glycol? media, not Refrigerant-22. 

The inside "evaporator" loops of course are liquid.

A) Have I been correctly informed?

B) Do all ground-source systems use a liquid err non-Refrigerant?

C) What are the tradeoffs? At 1st glance, I see more loss as
there are 2 media to Refrig. heat exchangers.

D) What are correct terms for the two loops, anyhow ;-?

Please enlighten me.


From heidlejm@ornl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:46:33 EDT 1995
Article: 1516 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: heidlejm@ornl.gov (Jeff Heidle)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: need info on IDACOMP programmable thermostat
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 18:08:08 GMT
Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN
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Hello.  I need a user/operator instruction manual for a programmable thermostat
which has merely "IDACOMP" stamped on the front panel and "EC4000 Energy 
Computer" in another location.  A manufacturer/distributor name, address, or 
phone number or other hint would be appreciated.

Thanks,

heidlejm@ornl.gov


From gg@well.sf.ca.us Thu Aug  3 22:46:34 EDT 1995
Article: 1517 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: gg@well.sf.ca.us (George A. Gleason)
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Hope this isn't offtopic, but does anyone have information on whether
equipment and materials for blown-insulation are available for use by fairly
competant do-it-yourselfers?  A group of us are doing some eco retrofits on
a house in Berkeley which is part of an organisation with ecological and
community-related goals.  We have fairly good construction skills among us;
the work will begin in September.  Feel free to email, gg@well.com
Thanks...



From phiggins@dmi.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:35 EDT 1995
Article: 1518 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: phiggins@dmi.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Latent Heat
Date: 1 Aug 1995 05:51:15 GMT
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>   jaykjay@aol.com (JayKJay) writes:
>  Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
>  heat?
>  
>                                                                         
>  Thanks
>  
>>>>
     Contrary to what our friend Paul may think, latent heat is not moisture content in the air. 
     Latent heat is the amount of heat required to bring  about a change of state in a substance.
     Take a pot of water and put it on a red hot burner.  As the water heats you can measure the change in temperature
      with a thermometer.  The heat that you measure is sensible heat.  Once the water reaches its boiling point, you'll 
     notice no change in the water's temperature until it is all vaporized.  The fact that you canot see the water heating 
     up does not mean there is no more heat being added.   This unmeasureable change in heat content is called latent
     heat.  I hope this helps you understand latent heat better.


     Karl      



From reese@chem.duke.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:36 EDT 1995
Article: 1519 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Charles E. Reese" <reese@chem.duke.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re:  solar heating and cooling
Date: 1 Aug 1995 18:00:22 GMT
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wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com (Will Stewart) wrote:
>
> In article <3vb0e7$1rp@news.duke.edu>, "Charles E. Reese" <reese@chem.duke.edu> says:
> 
> >Have you considered underground storage in static aquafers?  The idea is to
> >have two wells, in the summer pump solar heated water into the deeper well
> >and pump cold water out of the upper well.  In the winter you reverse the
> >flow recovering your hot water for heating and storing cold water for the
> >next summer.  If the water table is reasonably high then you almost don't
> >need a pump in the winter.  I have seen where large quantities of summer heated
> >water is stored in old mines in Sweden for use as winter heat.
> 
> Do you have any references, findings, or POCs for these projects?  I would very much
> like to find out more, especially lessons learned, empirical data, suitable ground
> conditions, etc.
> 
> Thanks,
>  
> William R. Stewart, Jr	(Will)      "Don't worry, be happy"  - Bobby McFarren
> wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com   (703)760-0239

Sorry, I think I saw the thing about Sweden on a 'Beyond 2000' or some such program.  I had 
the idea about aquafer storage several years ago and I haven't seen anything published on
it.  I tried a Lycos and WWWW serach but didn't get any hits.
Who knows you might be the first one to do it!!

Charlie Reese


From weisberg@princeton.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:37 EDT 1995
Article: 1520 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: weisberg@princeton.edu (Arel Weisberg)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Household hot water heater
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 11:37:21 -0400
Organization: Princeton University Gas Dynamics Lab
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A question for those knowledgable in the design of hot water heaters:

I'm inolvolved in the development of a device that requires monitoring of
the temperature inside the user's home hot water heater and regulate
(on/off) the gas flow.

Is it practical to insert a thermocouple through the outer wall of the heater?

Are most heaters designed similarly so that circumventing the existing
regulator would not be diffucult across a wide range of brands? 

Is there a good source where I could get drawings of designs being
manufactured today?

Ideally, we would like to market the device as an add on rather than
contract manufacturers to include it in their designs.

Thank you in advance for your help,

-- 
Arel Weisberg                               voice:  (609) 258-5119  
Princeton University                        fax:    (609) 258-2282
Gas Dynamics Lab, Rm 114                    weisberg@princeton.edu
<<<<http://ncd1901.cfd.princeton.edu/People/Arel_Weisberg.html>>>>


From systech@polarnet.fnsb.ak.us Thu Aug  3 22:46:38 EDT 1995
Article: 1521 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: systech@polarnet.fnsb.ak.us (Ken Irving)
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Message-ID: <817cb$c311c.3da@PolarNet>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 21:49:28 GMT
Organization: SysTech Control
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In article <3vk124$7uq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, allenbau@aol.com says...
>

snip

>A commercial building using economizers is a moving target because of the
>varying use of outside air. Most economisers only change the amount of
>outside air entering the building - some of the better engineers and
>contractors on this forum probably adjust exhaust air to closely match
>intake air but it is not real common. It is very hard to sell.

IMO the idea of "statically" linking exhaust to intake air (e.g., via damper control signals) is 
not sound.  There are so many variables involved, with damper linkages, etc. - rather, the 
answer is *active* static pressure control.

snip
>
>My experience has been that static pressure sensors are not very linear or
>reliable so it takes a lot of care to keep a large building balanced out.
>With the advent of tighter residential construction I think it would be
>nice to have an "off the shelf" item to test for  pressure inside and
>outside the house.

IMO modern static pressure transducers *are* reliable and very usable, and a key part of any 
static pressure solution.  Linearity should not be an issue; if the device is reasonably 
accurate at the desired control point, then it can be used for control.

>
>Finally - In a large building you may have doors blowing open or doors
>that are hard to open or even people with unexplained allergies but the
>three families who died in this county last year died at home breathing
>fumes from their own furnaces.
>

I'd say *none* of these situations are acceptable.

>Hopefully, your solution will be elegant (simple) and usable in residences
>where people die as well as in larger buildings where we may be
>inconvenienced or even become ill.
>

Yes, indeed.  My experience is with non-residential work, but with the progressing technologies 
higher levels of control *ought* to become more accessible at lower cost.

A related topic to this is the current emphasis on residential ventilation systems, sometimes 
with heat recovery.  These systems *could* easily be adapted to active pressure control in 
residences.

Ken Irving




From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:39 EDT 1995
Article: 1522 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Furnace coil
Date: 1 Aug 1995 21:21:56 GMT
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In article <1995Aug1.134457.7149@chemabs.uucp>,
   dxy55@cas.org (Dennis Yep) wrote:
~~>
~~>I am an absolute beginner. What is a furnace coil, and how does
~~>it help with a home central air conditioning system?

	There is no such thing.  Don't buy one, it might explode.


From ssengupt@uiuc.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:41 EDT 1995
Article: 1523 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Samit Sengupta
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Fan recommendation
Date: 1 Aug 1995 21:32:25 GMT
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I am seeking advice on buying a suitable fan to beat the overpowering
heat and humidity here in the Midwest. Which brands/sizes (e.g. 
Holmes, Kool operator, etc.) are considered to be most effective for home
use? I need a portable fan for under $30 or so.
Thanks for your suggestions.

Samit

Email: ssengupt@uiuc.edu
Phone: (217)328-3240


From EDRN@dlep1.itg.ti.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:42 EDT 1995
Article: 1524 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: EDRN@dlep1.itg.ti.com (Lynnette)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Dripping Ceiling Problem Solved
Date: 1 Aug 1995 22:09:43 GMT
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Okay, folks, I know you've all been waiting for this one:
;^)

Let me recap the problem, then the solution.

1. Outside air fan was injecting fresh air into a VAV
unit (inlet vanes) which was supplying VAV boxes in turn.
2. SA side of unit in mech room and ceiling tiles outside the 
mech room were dripping with condensation. Return air plenum 
fed into mech room, and return air dampers into each unit
in turn. Ceiling tiles were just below the common return 
air plenum.

Turns out that the OA fans were sized for double the actual
fresh air (IAQ) requirements of current "people-loading". So the 
OA was feeding into the side of the mixing box, out the RA dampers, 
and into the mech room, finding it's way even into the RA plenum
somehow (ceiling tiles dripping into the space).

Solution: Provide VFDs for the OA fans to track the loading of the 
inlet vanes or reduce the volume of the OA fans so that the SA fans
at part loads will not be overwhelmed...essentially a 100% OA system !

The other problem was that the OA fans (ducted into the mixing box
of each unit) was seeing no resistance...so some (not verified yet)
will be putting out twice the design volumes. A balancing damper in 
addition to changing the sheaves is required at the discharge of the 
OA fan. 

Lynnette 
Disclaimer: My statements are my own, and do not represent those of my 
employer. Any opinions or advice are not guaranteed to work or even make 
sense !!!


From envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:46:43 EDT 1995
Article: 1525 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov (David A. Jump)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 1 Aug 1995 23:59:37 GMT
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In article <3vk124$7uq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau) writes:
|> 
|> I have become an advocate of induced draft for any unit that burns fuel
|> inside the structure because they work in spite of most building problems.
|> I doubt that you have seen a backdraft in a system where an exhaust fan
|> and a draft prover were used. The new higher efficiency furnaces take this
|> into account and solve the problem for that one unit even if not for the
|> entire building.
|> 

Very true, however the difference in cost between the new > 90% AFUE furnaces
and the ~ 80% furnaces can be as high as $500.  I don't think you'll start
seeing these models in new tract construction unless the cost comes down a
bit.  For those who are aware of these IAQ issues, or are concerned about
energy efficiency, the cost may be worth it to them.  My experience is in
California, where the housing market is not primarily driven by energy efficiency
or IAQ considerations.  Maybe someone else can tell us whats going on in
colder climates.

Recently I was searching for an inexpensive commercially available 
directly-vented furnace, i.e. one with ducted inlet and outlet combustion air,
which would forever (pending proper operation) separate house air from the 
combustion.  Some here may recall my queries on alt.hvac, before the creation 
of this group (and once again, thanks to all who provided me with some valuable 
information). From this correspondence, and from talking with a few manufacturers,
I've found out that inexpensive residential directly-vented AFUE furnaces aren't 
available.

Is it true that an induced-draft furnace (maybe we need a glossary of terms!)
draws inlet air for combustion from the space surrounding it?  If so, then there
is always the potential for backdrafting.  I'm talking about worst case scenarios,
where perhaps all of the exhaust fans in a tightly sealed house are on.  Some of
the newer exhaust fans are strong, moving up to 50 cfm or more.  With a few of 
these in a house the potential for problems is there.

I'm not exactly sure what a draft prover is.  Does it provide OA directly to
the furnace, effectively separating the combustion air from the house?


my 2 cents,
David 


From PLEF23A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:44 EDT 1995
Article: 1526 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: PLEF23A@prodigy.com (Richard Eiden)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Heat pump hookup to Home Automation
Date: 2 Aug 1995 00:19:01 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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itplus@mail.leba.net (Ron Therrien) wrote:
>
>I have a Homebase system and want to control my HVAC (heat pump) and am 
unsure of the wiring....<omitted>.....Does anybody know of any wiring
>diagrams or articles out there? Thanks!
>
>Kathy Aumiller
>InfoTravel Plus

One sure suggestion is to contact the dealer who represents the 
manufacturer  of the heat pump with the model and serial number and 
request the proper wiring diagram.  This very same diagram may be found 
on the inside panel of the heat pump.

My advise is to contact a local contractor to assist your connection of 
this particular mechanical device.


-
  RICHARD EIDEN  PLEF23A@prodigy.com




From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:45 EDT 1995
Article: 1527 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Furnace coil
Date: 1 Aug 1995 20:27:44 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <3vkrpj$s68_001@grail419.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
milligan) writes:

>
>In article <1995Aug1.134457.7149@chemabs.uucp>,
>   dxy55@cas.org (Dennis Yep) wrote:
>~~>
>~~>I am an absolute beginner. What is a furnace coil, and how does
>~~>it help with a home central air conditioning system?
>
>

Suggest you do a pretty good bit of readingon the subject or else hire
someone who has - You're probably referring to the evaporator coil which
is usually located in the area of the furnace. The story gets pretty long
and complex from there.

We all began somewhere - Mike A.


From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:46 EDT 1995
Article: 1528 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wet dog odors from heat pumps
Date: 1 Aug 1995 20:29:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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<< 
Anybody have any experience on a wet dog or smelly sock odor from a heat
pump in a commercial office building?

 >>
Yup - fought it for over a year - it was a dirty coil - full of bug
carcasses, grass cuttings, and quite a lot of other living and dead stuff.

Finally had to disassemble the unit and power wash the coil from both
directions. Then we did it again. Then we did it again. Then it was ok.

Root of the problem was that the coil was made in two sections with an
open space between them - when we washed the coil, we just pushed the
debris into the void in the center of the coil assembly. Made a hole there
and dug it out - then put in some BODACIOUS filters on the outside air
source.

Good luck

Mike A.


From PLEF23A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:47 EDT 1995
Article: 1529 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: PLEF23A@prodigy.com (Richard Eiden)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wet dog odors from heat pumps
Date: 2 Aug 1995 00:20:25 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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davidmarc@aol.com (DavidMarc) wrote:
>
>Anybody have any experience on a wet dog or smelly sock odor from a 
heat
>pump in a commercial office building?

..to prevent this....install a fence around the condensing unit...<LOL>

-
  RICHARD EIDEN  PLEF23A@prodigy.com




From allenbau@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:49 EDT 1995
Article: 1530 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: allenbau@aol.com (Allenbau)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Depressurization-induced backdrafting
Date: 1 Aug 1995 21:09:31 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <3vmf5a$cca@overload.lbl.gov>, envdaj@epb12.lbl.gov (David A.
Jump) writes:

>
>Recently I was searching for an inexpensive commercially available 
>directly-vented furnace, i.e. one with ducted inlet and outlet combustion
>air,
>which would forever (pending proper operation) separate house air from
the 
>combustion.  Some here may recall my queries on alt.hvac, before the
creation
>
>of this group (and once again, thanks to all who provided me with some
>valuable 
>information). From this correspondence, and from talking with a few
>manufacturers,
>I've found out that inexpensive residential directly-vented AFUE furnaces
>aren't 
>available.
>
>

We've had great success in Iowa with the following:
1 - build a small room around the furnace
2 - Run insulated duct from the outside to bring combustion air to the
furnace
3 - drop the air into the furnace room  several feet from the furnace so
the cold air won't crack the heat exchanger.
Doesn't solve every problem in the world but customers like it and report
more comfortable and cheaper heating (no one has ever quantified either
term). Furnace does not draw a vacuum on the house.



> I'm not exactly sure what a draft prover is.  Does it provide OA
directly to
> the furnace, effectively separating the combustion air from the house?

Draft prover is a device in the exhaust flue that senses direction of air
in the flue - if there is not adequate air flow FROM the combustion area
TO the outside then the gas valve will not come on.


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:50 EDT 1995
Article: 1531 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R22 replacements, why?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 01:37:19 GMT
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In <3viula$19s4@usenetp1.news.prodigy.com>, LALZ60A@prodigy.com (Victoria Kamm) writes:
>Jim Sullivan writes:
>
>>
>>I am puzzled why there is a need for an R22 replacement. The refrigerant 
>will remain
>>in production for 25 years. During that time we discover that it's ozone 
>depletion is
>>not significant or even scrap the Montreal Protocols.
>>	Some commercial and industrial machines may have a 20+ year lifespan, 
>even
>>so, those units will be nearly ready for replacement.
>>	So what am I missing?
>>
>
>While it is true that  production will continue for another 25 years (35 
>years actually since the HCFC phaseout is currently 2030).  However, we 
>need to take into account the phaseout schedule as it can affect our 
>customers ability to purchase the refrigerant when they need it down the 
>road.

Victoria, In reality, the current phaseout schedule will most certainly
be accelerated.  Germany, for one, will ban the use of R-22 by the year 2000.
Several countries will follow suit.  a/c equipment manufacturers in the US
will be ready to jump off the R-22 ship shortly.

The use of CFCs in the US was to extend to the year 2000.  Now production
will stop at the end of this year, and all refrigeration equipment manufacturers
in the US to speak of have already switched to alternatives.  The conversion
happened much quicker than the EPA expected.  In fact, the amusing aspect of it
all is they did not collect anywhere near the CFC tax revenue they expected.

The real issue is will R-22 be taxed, and how significantly.  Tax it, and
it will disappear.



Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From jjr@atlanta.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:51 EDT 1995
Article: 1532 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jjr@atlanta.com (Jim Riticher)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water mist for cooling outdoors??
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 01:58:36 GMT
Organization: Internet Atlanta
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cwilliams@houston.wireline.slb.com (Cecil Williams) wrote:

>I understand that in the hot & dry parts of the U.S., like around Phoenix,
>Arizona, that  a fine water mist will make the heat a bit more bearable
>outdoors. I am looking for a source of these water atomizers or misting
>devices. Any experience with this type of outdoor cooling would be
>appreciated?

There's a company in Alabama called Springcool Systems that
manufactures misting heads and systems, primarily for large
flat-roofed structures. Sorry, but I don't have their catalog, so I
don't have an address or phone number. Maybe Sweet's or Thomas
Register?

I don't have any personal experience with their systems.

Good luck!

James J. Riticher, P.E. (Jim)
Environmental Design International
jjr@atlanta.com



From jjr@atlanta.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:52 EDT 1995
Article: 1533 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jjr@atlanta.com (Jim Riticher)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wet dog odors from heat pumps
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 01:58:40 GMT
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davidmarc@aol.com (DavidMarc) wrote:

>Anybody have any experience on a wet dog or smelly sock odor from a heat
>pump in a commercial office building?

I'd say you have classic symptoms of microbial growth in the unit -
say in the drain pan or on the liner. That's only the most likely
source - there are plenty of other possible sources.

You need to get inside the unit and ductwork and look around. If it's
as ugly as some I've seen, you might want to be wearing a respirator
when you open it up!


James J. Riticher, P.E. (Jim)
Environmental Design International
jjr@atlanta.com



From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:53 EDT 1995
Article: 1534 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Latent Heat
Date: 2 Aug 1995 01:52:10 GMT
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In article <3vkfcj$2e2@news.internetmci.com>, phiggins@dmi.net wrote:
~~>>   jaykjay@aol.com (JayKJay) writes:
~~>>  Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
~~>>  heat?
~~>>  
~~>>                                                                         
~~>>  Thanks
~~>>  
~~>>>>>
~~>Contrary to what our friend Paul may think, latent heat is not
~~> moisture content in the air. 
~~>Latent heat is the amount of heat required to bring  about a change
~~> of state in a substance.

	Our friend Paul thinks you are not exactly on target.  You refer to
the application of sensible heat to a condensable substance which is
currently in it's liquid state, or vice versa ( heat removal from vapor ).

	Once it is in it's gaseous state, it <<then>> is referred to as
'containing latent heat', which is the heat of vaporization.  The amount 
of heat applied to it was sensible when it was applied or removed.  Once it 
is contained in the gaseous state of the substance, it becomes latent.

	While I agree that the statement I made about it being 'moisture 
in the air' was technically loose, I think it conveyed the point to those
who may not be familiar with the subject, which was my intent.

	BTW, if you read my entire post, I made the exact point you stress
later on.  After having gotten the basic concept across, I then refined
the definition a bit more accurately.

Your friend,
Paul


From pp001011@interramp.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:54 EDT 1995
Article: 1535 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pp001011@interramp.com (Michael Purucker)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: '92 Sable: R-12 or R-134a?
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:26:27 +5
Organization: Silver Spring, Maryland
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Does anyone know whether the 1992 Mercury Sable (3.8 l, 6 cyl) was equipped 
with R-12 or R-134a Refrigerant? My brother-in-law is rebuilding one and
hasn't been able to locate the information.

                                                              Mike Purucker
                                                              
pp001011@interramp.com


From pkay@smartlink.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:55 EDT 1995
Article: 1536 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Peter Kesselman <pkay@smartlink.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: (no subject)
Date: 2 Aug 1995 03:56:59 GMT
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To: SUVA-95,Experiences?
X-URL: news:sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

Does anyone have any experience with SUVA-95? It is a new alternative to 
R13/503/23. It is supposed to have lower discharge temperature than R23. 
We just ordered some directly from DuPont (it's only available in 
limited supply so far.

Peter Kesselman.




From pkay@smartlink.net Thu Aug  3 22:46:56 EDT 1995
Article: 1537 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Peter Kesselman <pkay@smartlink.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: SUVA-95 Experiences?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 03:57:17 GMT
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Does anyone have any experience with SUVA-95? It is a new alternative to 
R13/503/23. It is supposed to have lower discharge temperature than R23. 
We just ordered some directly from DuPont (it's only available in 
limited supply so far.

Peter Kesselman.




From LJAMES@nmu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:46:57 EDT 1995
Article: 1538 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Larry James <LJAMES@nmu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Household hot water heater
Date: 2 Aug 1995 04:41:18 GMT
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weisberg@princeton.edu (Arel 
Weisberg) wrote:
>A question for those knowledgable in the design of hot water heaters:
>
>I'm inolvolved in the development of a device that requires monitoring of
>the temperature inside the user's home hot water heater and regulate
>(on/off) the gas flow.
>
>Is it practical to insert a thermocouple through the outer wall of the heater?
>
>Are most heaters designed similarly so that circumventing the existing
>regulator would not be diffucult across a wide range of brands? 
>
>Is there a good source where I could get drawings of designs being
>manufactured today?
>
>Ideally, we would like to market the device as an add on rather than
>contract manufacturers to include it in their designs.
>
>Thank you in advance for your help,
>
>-- 
>Arel Weisberg                               voice:  (609) 258-5119  
>Princeton University                        fax:    (609) 258-2282
>Gas Dynamics Lab, Rm 114                    weisberg@princeton.edu
><<<<http://ncd1901.cfd.princeton.edu/People/Arel_Weisberg.html>>>>

Why would you want to use a 
Thermocouple to control the flow of 
gas. Gas 
h2O heaters use a simple rod and 
tube sensing device to provide on 
/off 
control. A thermocouple is also used 
to generate millivoltage for the 
safety shut-off circuit. A 
combinstion type non-electric gas 
valve 
also incoroprates an ECO (energy cut 
off) switch that opens the safety 
circuit in the event the temperature 
exceeds a preset high limit

Maybe I don't understand your 
question.

Honeywell, Robertshaw, and 
White-Rodgers manufacture gas valves 
for 
domestis water heaters, but others 
may also. They are similar in design 
and for safety reasons have been 
improved over the last 20 years. A 
good 
basic source for information about 
H2O heaters is Rheem. They have a 
Mini-Manual that covers the basics 
of gas water heaters. You assume 
great 
risk modifying any gas safety 
control that has AGA (American Gas 
Association) approval or UL listing, 
and it is unlikely you could market 
a device without AGA approval.   
L:JAMES@NMU.edu   FAX 906-227-1549



From mikelipsey@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:46:59 EDT 1995
Article: 1539 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mikelipsey@aol.com (MikeLipsey)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Household hot water heater
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I would think most water heater manufacturers would flip it they knew
someone was making any device that affected their gas control. A domestic
water heater is a potential bomb. And there have been some heavy-duty
lawsuits against accidents involving domestic water heaters in recent
years. I would also imagine that tampering with a heater would void the
tank warranty. Would you take on the product liability insurance?


From bambauer@netshop.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:00 EDT 1995
Article: 1540 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: bambauer@netshop.net ()
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Water Towers
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 02:26:13 GMT
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I'd like some information about a cooling device that I heard a very
littlle about. These things are apparently in use in the the
Southwest- Yuma, Phoniex,etc.  They use water falling down some
baffles or ??   that chills it for use in cooling residential and
commercial bldgs. These devices can be four feet square and sixteen
feet high and probably bigger. My brother, who used to live in Yuma
thought they were called water towers. I'm not talking about swamp
coolers.

Can anybody help me out here?


bambauer@netshop.net



From pkay@smartlink.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:01 EDT 1995
Article: 1541 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Peter Kesselman <pkay@smartlink.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: '92 Sable: R-12 or R-134a?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 12:50:59 GMT
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My '93 Taurus (same difference) has good 'ole R12.

Peter Kesselman. 




From tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu Thu Aug  3 22:47:02 EDT 1995
Article: 1542 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmiller@trout.ab.umd.edu (Thomas H Miller)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: '92 Sable: R-12 or R-134a?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 10:32:54 -0400
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Michael Purucker (pp001011@interramp.com) wrote:
: Does anyone know whether the 1992 Mercury Sable (3.8 l, 6 cyl) was equipped 
: with R-12 or R-134a Refrigerant? My brother-in-law is rebuilding one and
: hasn't been able to locate the information.

:                                                               Mike Purucker
:                                                               
: pp001011@interramp.com

What type of access ports are on it?

Tom

-- 
______________________________________________________________________
          ** Tom Miller **        |"No man should be criticized for  
E-mail tmiller@umabnet.ab.umd.edu | defending his rights"
Chief of Engineering, Md EMS Comm | Justice Robert G. Gillepsie 


From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:04 EDT 1995
Article: 1543 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions (now R-500/R-406A)
Date: 3 Aug 1995 03:11:42 GMT
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In <3vj7av$hr1@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>>George, expansion device sizing wouldn't seem to be a problem going
>>from R-500 to R-406A.  But in the case of a TEV, I doubt you would have
>>enough adjustment range in the valve to compensate for the differences
>>in pressure.  The dew point curve of R-406A (from the last publication
>>I have on the refrigerant) shows it to be significantly below that
>>of R-500.  A 'power head' change would be in order.
>>
>>Andy Schoen
>>aschoen@mo.net
>>
>
>Although the static pressures of 406A are higher than 12 (82psig @ 70F),
>things come right down when the system is started up.  Due to the glide,
>the head pressure on 406A is sometimes lower than R-12.  I have never
>put 406A in a R-500 system, these are just reports I got back
>from users.. Most of them were in cap tube systems.. the users
>seemed happy.

With systems using TEVs, the dew point curve of a refrigerant blend
must be considered, not the bubble point curve.  At 15F, the dew point
of R-406A runs approx 7 psi lower than R-12, and 12 psi lower than R-500.
Under ideal circumstances, the TEV adjustment would compensate for the
7 psi difference between R-12 and R-406A.  A 'power head' change would
be safer than depending upon the range of TEV adjustment.  The 12 psi
difference between R-500 and R-406A, however, would likely present problems
for any R-500 TEV.

Fortunately, cap tube systems are dependent on pressure drop, and the
refrigerant's density and net refrigerating effect.  Not the refrigerant's
saturation/dew point curve.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From david_r_munro@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:04 EDT 1995
Article: 1544 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Dave Munro <david_r_munro@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Help me with this load calc, please ?
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I don't have my psych chart with me, and don't know what the altitude/ barometric 
pressure is for this discussion, so I will not address the math in this post as much 
as some of the basic questions and statements.

1. Allowances for fan heat need to be included. If the fan motor is in the air 
stream the motor heat must also be added. (The purpose of the 2 ton cooling coil may 
have been to counteract the fan heat???). It may be useful to verify the airflow and 
take entering and leaving air temperatures.

2. Unless there is active control of the air flow rate, the assumption that the 
system is flowing 500 cfm probably is not true. The actual air flow rate will be 
determined by the fan speed, the flow rate will vary depending on the inlet 
conditions (barometric pressure and air density).

3. Are we controlling the room or the supply air to the 70 F and 50-60% RH design 
criteria. What are the estimated minimum and maximum sensible and latent room heat 
gains?

Based on the results of tuning and repairs, it looks as though you have addressed 
most of the issues relative to cooling. There may be issues in the future related to 
the heating and/or intermittent weather conditions:

1. What are the steam coil control parameters?

2. Does the air scrubber run continuously (24 hours per day 365 days per year)? Do 
you know its saturation efficiency? Can you measure the entering dry bulb and 
wetbulb conditions as well as the leaving dry bulb?

3. Does the reheat coil have SCR control, or are their multiple stages?

Please excuse my ignorance - What is a Faircloth variable multiplier?

Dave Munro



From william.baumbach@phcc.org Thu Aug  3 22:47:11 EDT 1995
Article: 1545 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: william.baumbach@phcc.org (WILLIAM BAUMBACH)
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Air-Conditioning (FAQ)
Message-ID: <8AE63F2.001D000086.uuout@phcc.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 95 16:50:00 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: PHCC.BBS. Plumbing,Heating,Cooling Contractors 703-273-6580
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    The following are, tips tricks and a overall checklist that
    homeowners should know and use for (FAQ) "Frequently Asked Questions"
    to help assure that your Air-conditioning is working and cooling
    as efficiently as possible, while saving you money. The following
    information should help you decide if you need a professional to
    service your Air-conditioning unit.

(1)  Air filter(s) MUST be clean. They should be located near
     the return air duct adjacent to the air handler or in a
     return air grill(s). Check to see if the air filter is clean
     ever 30 days. Depending of the house, you may not need to
     Clean the air filter but ever 30 to 90 days or longer.

(2)  Flip the s witch on the thermostat for the fan setting to
     FAN ON, not AUTO. This will run the indoor fan nonstop.
     The out side A/C unit will still cycle with a call for cooling
     from the thermostat. The constant air moving will keep you cooler.
     You can probably keep the thermostat a degree or two higher then
     normal and still feel comfortable. You will also maintain a more
     even temperature between upstairs and downstairs. This will SAVE
     you MONEY because the outdoor condenser will not come on as much!

(3)  Make sure that you wash the outside condenser coil once a year.
     If it's dirty, the A/C will run hot and inefficient. A sign of the
     coil being dirty is the small exposed copper (pipe) (tubing) line,
     usually a 3/8" O/D connecting the inside unit with the outside
     unit will be HOT to the touch.

(4)  If the small exposed 3/8" copper pipe connecting the inside unit
     with the outside unit is hot to the touch there can be several
     reasons why; (a) A/C is low on refrigerant. (b) The outdoor
     condenser coil is dirty. Those are the two most common reasons for
     it to be hot to the touch.

(5)  "Warm Rooms" on the lower levels of the house cut back or cut off
     some vent registers (Diffuser) and make sure that all the ones on
     the upper floors are open all the way! Also, see paragraphs #2 & #9.

(6)  "Doors" if you close the door to a room make sure that there is about
     a 3/4" gap between the bottom of the door and the floor. You may have
     had carpet put down on the floor and now there is no gap. This is
     necessary so the return air ducts can pull the warm air from the room.

(7)  Never leave the house and turn OFF the A/C. then come  back home and
     turn it on and expect it to cool the house anytime soon. Doing this
     will cost you more MONEY to cool the house then if you had left it on.
     You can set the temperature up five to ten degrees but NOT OFF. This
     is because of a Latent heat buildup in the walls and furniture in the
     house and will make the A/C work harder to remove the heat, this takes
     a long time.

(8)  Never turn the A/C off then back on in less then five minutes, this
     will short-cycle the compressor and can trip  breakers, blow fuses,
     or cause permanent damage the compressor. You should have a time-delay
     install on the A/C to prevent this during power outages! Some setback
     thermostats have a time-delay built-in. Having a start capacitor and
     relay is a good idea.  This will increase the life expectancy of the
     compressor by starting faster thus keeping motor temperature down,
     using less electric to start.

(9)  Keep blinds closed, curtains drawn, window shades drawn, a working
     attic fan would be a good idea, plenty of insolation in the
     ceiling & walls, air tight storm windows, keep outside doors and
     openings close, etc.

(10) "Icing of the indoor coil or the large covered copper pipe"
     There are TWO main reasons for this. Lack of air flow or low on
     refrigerant. Lack of air flow can be a dirty air filter, dirty
     indoor evaporator coil, dirty fan blades, damper in duct restricting
     air flow.

(11) "Water in side around air-handler" see paragraph 10. The condensate
     line is a drain pipe coming from the indoor evaporator coil to a
     drain or to the outside. This can become clogged and cause water to
     backup and can produce about five gallons of water an hour. This is
     where all the humidity and moisture from the house goes.

(12) You should NEVER need to add refrigerant to a system, if you are
     adding refrigerant this means that there is a refrigerant leak in
     the system that SHOULD be fixed! "Why KILL the Ozone layer?"

(13) Checking the cooling with a thermometer. There should be a 15-20
     degree temperature drop across the indoor coil at the air handler.
     Check the temperature drop in the duct close to the coil, if air
     coming into the coil is 75 degrees then the air leaving the coil
     should be 60-55 degrees. If it is higher or lower there is probably
     something wrong. Too high of a drop. IE more then 20 degrees drop,
     could mean lack of air flow or low on refrigerant. Less than a
     15-degree drop could mean too much air flow, dirty outside coil or
     low on refrigerant.

(14) Never cover the A/C with plastic or an air tight cover, this will
     cause it to rust.

(15) Do NOT let animals (Cats) (Dogs) etc. Urinate on the outside
     coil. This will cause it to corrode (rust) and then leak refrigerant.

(16) Keep grass & weeds from blocking air flow on outside A/C.

(17) Do NOT build a deck close to the top of the outside A/C or any thing
     else that could cause the warm discharge air to be recirculate back
     to the unit.

(18) Fuses, Circuit Breakers or wires should never be hot to the touch,
     if they are hot you may have a sizing problem or a loose or bad
     electrical connection.

    When you need to have your equipment repaired/serviced make sure
    you use a licenced contractor who should be insured and obtain
    permits from city/county officials when required/necessary. Or a
    member of the (PHCC) Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors
    Association. PHCC contractors are professionals who adhere to a
    published code of ethics that improves the industry and protects
    your health, certified by the State Board of Contractors.  They
    also have licenses, bonds, insurance and obtain permits when
    required by local municipalities. The PHCC logo is your assurance
    of quality in this profession! Isn't your health & safety worth
    it? It should be! Call 1-800-533-7694 for more information about
    the PHCC.

    Air-Conditioners DO NOT add cool air. What they do is remove warm
    air and put it outside. R-22 & R-12 ETC.. Refrigerant is a
    manmade product invented by Dupont and given the trade name
    FREON. The temperature of refrigerant is directly relate to its
    pressure it is at and vise Versa, IE. R-22 at 0 psi is -144
    degrees below zero or at 60 psi it at 32 degrees. Keep in mind
    that heat goes toward cold and not cool to heat. All the A/C
    compressor does is to pump vapor to create a high and low
    pressure, IE. A low pressure at the inside coil for a low
    temperature for the refrigerant to absorb the heat in the house
    and a high pressure at the out side coil to give off the heat the
    refrigerant absorbed from the inside coil to outside. Over sized
    A/C will run short cycles and not remove the humidity and
    moisture from the house, a under sized unit will not be able to
    keep the house cool on a hot day. You MUST be careful to get the
    correct size A/C for your house. A/C's are sized by tons, there
    are 12,000 BTU'S to a ton of cooling. You need to move 400 CFM.
    of air per ton of cooling across the indoor coil 450 CFM. For
    Heat Pumps. Each CFM. (Cubic foot per minute) of air will carrier
    26.7 BTU's of cooling. You need a heat-gain calculation done per
    room to get the proper (CFM/BTUs) to be delivered to each room
    and the total (Tons/BTUs) needed to cool the house based on
    designed weather conditions in your area.

    The above is my opinion/advice and is based on 15 years experience
    in the Plumbing, Heating, Cooling business. Please fell free to
    obtain other opinions.

 William J. Baumbach II
 E-mail Baumbach@phcc.org
 President. Baumbach Enterprises Ltd. Busy since 1928. 703-250-4200.
 Vice President. Nova. Plumbing, Heating, Cooling Contractors Association.
 SYSOP of the PHCC BBS. 703-273-6580.
 President. Kena Computer Club. 703-573-4202.
 Seller of a Service, Dispatching, Inventory software Program called
 "THE SERVICE HELPER" 1-800-280-2820.
 MM. RA. KT. SR. SH.
**end file**


From qrg@ornl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:47:12 EDT 1995
Article: 1546 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Kirk Wilson <qrg@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with this load calc, please ?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 14:24:13 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Energy Systems/Oak Ridge National Lab
Lines: 25
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To: pjm@nando.net

Uh!...a picture of this one would be helpful. Here is a quick looksy.

When I do load calcs (it's been a while), I use the ASHRAE Load Calculation Manual 
or computer progams based on it. Your system has the following loads:

1. Outside air from 85/85% [45 BTU/Lb] to room condition 70/50% [25.5 BTU/Lb]
    Use BTU/hr = 4.5 (CFM) (Delta h) = 44,000 BTU/hr  (3.7 tons)
(Actually your washer saturates the air to 81/99%,constant wet bulb, but the 
enthalpy is about the same)

2. Fan Heat from Table 4, Page 26.10 of 1993 ASHRAE Fundamentals
   2 HP motor (if this is size) = 6,440 BTU/Hr (motor in/ fan in)

3. Reheat Load, if it is a constant. [BTU/hr = 1.1 (CFM) (delta temp)]

3. Room Load - You've got to define these; lights, people, equipment, skin, etc.

Add all of these up for your cooling load. With your supply airflow fixed at 500 
CFM, your sensible load will define your supply air temperature. 

Your outside air load uses 3.7 tons of your 7 tons on a design day.


Hope this helps. 



From dreynol@jlc.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:13 EDT 1995
Article: 1547 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dreynol@jlc.net (David Reynolds)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Air Filters
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 16:03:20 GMT
Organization: JLC-net, Milford NH
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What are peoples thoughts on "normal" or untreated pleated air filters
versus these "new" treated filters which supposedly reduce the micro 
growth.  IMHO it would appear that as soon as a layer of dust formed
on the filter any chemical treating would be null and void.  Any
thoughts would be greatly appreciated as I tring to decide whether to
switch to this 'new' technology for all of our HVAC systems.
I you would rather preserve space in the group for more interesting
topics you may email your response to me.





From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:14 EDT 1995
Article: 1548 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Air-Conditioning (FAQ)
Date: 2 Aug 1995 21:41:41 GMT
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In article <8AE63F2.001D000086.uuout@phcc.org>,
   william.baumbach@phcc.org (WILLIAM BAUMBACH) wrote:

[ spam deleted ]

	William, this is not a homeowners forum, nor is it the yellow
pages.  We do not need your spam, nor your advertising.

	I chased you away before.  Must I do it again ?

Paul


From dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil Thu Aug  3 22:47:15 EDT 1995
Article: 1549 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Gunsmoke <dillonm@qmsmtpgw.mugu.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Water Towers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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bambauer@netshop.net () wrote:
>I'd like some information about a cooling device that I heard a very
>littlle about. These things are apparently in use in the the
>Southwest- Yuma, Phoniex,etc.  They use water falling down some
>baffles or ??   that chills it for use in cooling residential and
>commercial bldgs. These devices can be four feet square and sixteen
>feet high and probably bigger. My brother, who used to live in Yuma
>thought they were called water towers. I'm not talking about swamp
>coolers.
>
>Can anybody help me out here?
>
>
>bambauer@netshop.net
>
Hello.

Could your brother be referring to a Cooling Tower?  

A "wet cooling tower" used for decreasing the temperature of hot, dry air 
would work very much the same as an evaporative (swamp) cooler (also 
referred to on occasion as an adiabatic saturator).  The hot air would 
enter through baffles, pass through a cold water spray, and exit the 
tower at a lower temperature and a higher relative humidity.  The baffles 
also work as a catchment device for the water overspray.  The water 
hitting the baffles is directed to flow down into the sump.  That is why 
you see an inverted triangular shape for many (not all) cooling towers.

As the hot dry air passes through the cold water droplets, a transfer of 
energy occurs when the heat from the air vaporizes some of the water and 
increases the temperature of the portion of water that passes through.  
In essence, you are decreasing the "sensible" heat of the air at the 
expense of increasing the "latent" heat.  See Paul Milligan's response to 
the "Latent Heat" thread for a good explanation of sensible/latent.

However, cooling towers are typically used for maintaining good operating 
temperatures for equipment.  For example, we use mechanical shakers where 
I work.  Cold (relative) water is the cooling medium that is used to 
remove heat caused by friction between the armature and shaker head.  The 
water is recirculated through the cooling tower.  Our towers are also 
used for cooling the compressors of our large refrigeration system.

It sounds like your brother is talking about a cooling tower, sorry if 
I'm wrong.  Hope this helps.

Later.

Matt Dillon



From ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:47:16 EDT 1995
Article: 1550 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water Towers
Date: 2 Aug 1995 18:56:19 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
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bambauer@netshop.net wrote:
: I'd like some information about a cooling device that I heard a very
: littlle about. These things are apparently in use in the the
: Southwest- Yuma, Phoniex,etc.  They use water falling down some
: baffles or ??   that chills it for use in cooling residential and
: commercial bldgs. These devices can be four feet square and sixteen
: feet high and probably bigger. My brother, who used to live in Yuma
: thought they were called water towers. I'm not talking about swamp
: coolers.

Your brother seems to have described a cooling tower. 

The devise is for cooling condenser water, the water medium which removes 
heat from a chiller system, most often found in large comercial AC
systems. (I don't ever remember seeing a residential cooling tower.)

Within cooling towers, are fans, which move great volumes of air through 
the water cascading over the baffles you seem to have described. The 
circulated air removes unwanted the heat from the condenser water. Nuclear 
power plants use natural draft cooling towers for removing unwanted heat. 
(Those are the distinctive convex shaped towers associated with nuclear 
power plants.)

Hope this helps you.

Joseph Benning
--
ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu---------/.\-----Northeastern Illinois University
Joseph A. Benning              / \:/ \       Chicago, Illinois, USA 60625  
                             /   [ ]   \
"I've seen it before Joe.../   /{x.x}\   \...You're an Internet junkie; 
    Roadkill, on the     /        U        \ Information Super Highway!"


From ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thu Aug  3 22:47:17 EDT 1995
Article: 1551 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: '92 Sable: R-12 or R-134a?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 19:12:41 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network
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Michael Purucker (pp001011@interramp.com) wrote:
: Does anyone know whether the 1992 Mercury Sable (3.8 l, 6 cyl) was equipped 
: with R-12 or R-134a Refrigerant? My brother-in-law is rebuilding one and
: hasn't been able to locate the information.

Mike, open your hood or the car. On the passenger firewall is a black 
fiberglass box containing the fan motor, heat core and evaporator core. 
On the box is a label, which states what type and how much refrigerant 
the system contains. Also, you might check the owners manual.

Joseph Benning
--
ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu---------/.\-----Northeastern Illinois University
Joseph A. Benning              / \:/ \       Chicago, Illinois, USA 60625  
                             /   [ ]   \
"I've seen it before Joe.../   /{x.x}\   \...You're an Internet junkie; 
    Roadkill, on the     /        U        \ Information Super Highway!"


From pabst@stsci.edu Thu Aug  3 22:47:18 EDT 1995
Article: 1552 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pabst@stsci.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re:Air Filters
Date: 2 Aug 95 14:50:45 EST
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD 21218
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I think introducing another substance in the system in the
form of a coating on an air filter could cause problems to
those sensitive to this anti-microbial stuff.  It's got to
be some sort of antibiotic, and all it take is one occupant
to be allergic to it and you have another problem!

Greg Pabst
Space Telescope Science Institute
Baltimore, MD


From fryinbryan@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:19 EDT 1995
Article: 1553 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: fryinbryan@aol.com (FryinBryan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Wanted: Professional Opinions
Date: 3 Aug 1995 01:45:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Thanks a bunch for the thread guy's! Just what I needed.

Sorry about the delay getting back to you.  107DF heat wave has kept me a
little busy!


From gg@well.sf.ca.us Thu Aug  3 22:47:20 EDT 1995
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From: gg@well.sf.ca.us (George A. Gleason)
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Interesting!  Now personally I prefer to support locally owned businesses
that pay their workers an honorable wage, rather than the large chains, but
I'm willing to bet that some of the local building-supply places in Berkeley
or Oakland have picked up the idea if nothing else to stay competitive.  If
they haven't, then I'll certainly write a friendly note to management
suggesting it would be a good idea and see what happens.

-george


From gerryobr@nbnet.nb.ca Thu Aug  3 22:47:21 EDT 1995
Article: 1555 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: gerryobr@nbnet.nb.ca (Gerry O'Brien)
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Air-Conditioning (FAQ)
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 00:25:42 GMT
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In article <3vnhap$oqo_002@grail913.nando.net> pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) writes:
>From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
>Subject: Re: Air-Conditioning (FAQ)
>Date: 2 Aug 1995 21:41:41 GMT

>In article <8AE63F2.001D000086.uuout@phcc.org>,
>   william.baumbach@phcc.org (WILLIAM BAUMBACH) wrote:

>[ spam deleted ]

>        William, this is not a homeowners forum, nor is it the yellow
>pages.  We do not need your spam, nor your advertising.

>        I chased you away before.  Must I do it again ?

>Paul

You must be the moderator.  What is the reason for this chasing away.  This is 
the alt.home.repair group and many people post A/C related questions.  This 
FAQ is a good way for them to recieve a lot of valuable info without having 
waste a lot of bandwidth asking teh same questions over and over.  Some don't 
know about the alt.hvac or sci.engr.havc groups.

Leave it be in my opinion.  Ask the readers what they think.

TTUL Gerry O.
gerryobr@nbnet.nb.ca


From tonyd@interport.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:23 EDT 1995
Article: 1556 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tonyd@interport.net (Tony DeVito)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Cooling tower algae
Date: 3 Aug 1995 15:04:44 -0400
Organization: Interport Communications Corp.
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Arthur Crowe (XMEH96A@prodigy.com) wrote:
: Currently, our water treater is telling me that all cooling towers have 
: some algae and there is little anyone can do to remove it all without 
: damaging our galvanized tower.  Is anyone else having algae problems with 
: their cooling tower and if so, how are you going about solving this 
: problem?  Is some algae normal?  Being in the South Carolina sun for a 
: majority of the day is not helping this problem either.  I appreciate 
: your help in advance.  Thanks.

: Sincerely, 

: Art

You can always increase the dosage of biocides, the frequency of 
application, or try other biocides but you may not always be able to 
control every little bit of algae. Sometimes you'll get some in areas of 
the tower where overspray or condensation occurs that is very difficult 
to control.

You might occasionally try cleaning the tower more frequently, say by 
applying a detergent and compatible biocide and letting it circulate for 
a reasonable amount of time then draining and flushing and mechanically 
cleaning the tower. Repeated once or twice a year it might pay off in 
terms of clean efficient tubes too.

Before gettings nuts with chemicals you might examine if there are other 
factors you can influence, such as installing head pan covers if its and 
induced draft tower.

Are you doing and microbiological testing to monitor how your biocides 
are working?

good luck,

tonyd



From john@bscltd.demon.co.uk Thu Aug  3 22:47:24 EDT 1995
Article: 1557 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: John Cain <john@bscltd.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Latent Heat
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 10:33:16 GMT
Organization: BSC Building Services Limited
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <697573632wnr@bscltd.demon.co.uk>
References: <3vdj9a$g5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In article: <3vdj9a$g5n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  jaykjay@aol.com (JayKJay) writes:
 
> Could someone please e-mail me a definition (easy to understand) of latent
> heat?

Latent heat gains increase the moisture content of the air in the 
conditioned space but DO NOT affect the the dry-bulb (as read from a 
standard thermometer) temperature.

To maintain a constant relative humidity within the conditioned space, 
the air must be supplied at a lower moisture content than that of the
air within the space.

Latent gains are given by:   Ql=Ma(Gr-Gs)Hfg

where: Ql=  Latent heat gains in kW
       Ma=  Mass flow rate of supply air in kg per second
       Gr=  Room moisture content kg/kg
       Gs=  Supply air moisture content kg/kg
       Hfg= Latent heat of evaporation kJ/kg

Add the above to previous threads and you will have a reasonable understanding
of the definition of latent heat.   
                            
 -- 
.--------------------------------------------------------------------.
| John Cain I.Eng ACIBSE MASHRAE    EMail: john@bscltd.demon.co.uk   |
| BSC Building Services Ltd         Tel:   01908 231128  Fax: 231129 |
'--------------------------------------------------------------------'



From john@bscltd.demon.co.uk Thu Aug  3 22:47:25 EDT 1995
Article: 1558 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: John Cain <john@bscltd.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Refrigeration pressures - help required
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 11:28:57 GMT
Organization: BSC Building Services Limited
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <644313490wnr@bscltd.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: john@bscltd.demon.co.uk
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First let me say that I am delighted to post to this group as the 
standard of the threads in general is, in my opinion, very good.

I recently designed some air conditioning systems for densley occupied 
meeting halls in the UK.  I used a 7-Ton heat pump delivering 1.22 m3/s 
supply air of which 0.7 m3/s fresh-air was introduced. 

To maintain a neutral pressure in the space, rather than to waste 
the energy in the return air, I ducted the room extract air (again 0.7 
m3/s) to the inlet of the condenser to mix with outside air (its an 
indoor packaged unit) this moisture laden air cools the condenser air 
in the summer and heats it in winter, improving overall efficiency.  
Has anyone any comments with regard to this modification?

I visited one system yesterday which had tripped-out on head pressure.  
When I connected my gauges I recorded a head pressure rising of 375 psi 
and suction of 75 psi (external air temp: 30C, internal room temp 25C). 
The condenser was clean and no leaks were evident.  I noticed that the 
extract duct to the condenser had been removed, when this was 
reinstated, the head reduced to 325 psi.  The unit was correctly 
charged with 6.76 kg of R22 (manufacturers recommendation).

I wonder, what affect higher head pressures have on the efficiency of a 
system?  As I see it, the result of increasing the condensing 
temperature is a decrease in the COP due to the increase in compressor 
power.       

In my opinion the condenser is not removing sufficient heat to reduce 
the head to say 250-300 psi (I would be much happier with these 
pressures) which would reduce suction pressure to say 60 psi and hence 
provide a cooler evaporator.  I know I should have measured the actual 
cooling capacity across the evaporator but wonder what percentage 
reduction in capacity I could expect with these higher pressures?  I 
accept that sufficient detail has not been provided for an in-depth 
reply but comments would be appreciated.

Many thanks.   

-- 
.--------------------------------------------------------------------.
| John Cain I.Eng ACIBSE MASHRAE    EMail: john@bscltd.demon.co.uk   |
| BSC Building Services Ltd         Tel:   01908 231128  Fax: 231129 |
'--------------------------------------------------------------------'



From Gary.Cunningham@internetMCI.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:26 EDT 1995
Article: 1559 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Gary Cunningham <Gary.Cunningham@internetMCI.com>
Newsgroups: alt.architecture.alternative,alt.energy.renewable,sci.energy,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,talk.environment
Subject: Re:  solar heating and cooling
Date: 2 Aug 1995 22:51:40 GMT
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gg@well.sf.ca.us (George A. Gleason) wrote:
>
> 
> Ref ...
> Hope this isn't offtopic, but does anyone have information on whether
> equipment and materials for blown-insulation 



Yea, 
Go to home depot,  they rent free equip if you by the insulation
>from  them.

GMC


From rf@sedona.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:27 EDT 1995
Article: 1560 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: rf@sedona.net (Richard Fairbanks)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: thermally conductive fluids inside glass
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 17:40:53 -0700
Organization: Fairbanks Productions, Inc.
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Dear Folks,

  I am trying to find information on the use of thermally conductive
fluids circulating between two layers of glass as a means of climate
control inside glass structures. I understand that there is such a
facility in Vancouver, called, I believe "The Courthouse," but I can't
find any source of info. on it. Also I am interested in fluids that vary
in opacity based upon a controlled voltage. Any and all help would be
appreciated. Thanks!

Richard Fairbanks
Fairbanks Productions, Inc.
rf@sedona.net


From jonesn@orph01.phy.ornl.gov Thu Aug  3 22:47:28 EDT 1995
Article: 1561 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jonesn@orph01.phy.ornl.gov (Nathan Jones)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: R-12 to R134a Automobile conversion?
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:13:45 GMT
Organization: Accelerator Based Atomic Physics
Lines: 23
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In article <3vi18t$ovf@news.ecn.bgu.edu> ujbennin@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Joseph Benning) writes:

>After a trip to my friendly auto parts store today, I was disturbed to 
>discover the lack of materials in their A/C supplies for converting my 
>R-12 system to R-134a.

>I could not find labels (indicating a conversion) and replacement 
>fittings, only 1/4 and 3/16 MFF, not the (standard?) R-134a fittings I 
>found on my 1993 GM car. 

>My normal sources do not carry automotive components, therefore, is there 
>an automotive A/C parts supplier I can recommend to my local auto parts 
>supplier?

There is a company named BG that sells mainly automotive chemicals to 
dealerships. They have a complete conversion kit. Check with a local
dealer's service manager to find out who his BG distributor is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nathan Jones                     The opinions expressed here are
Accelerator Atomic Physics       obviously my own, as my employer
Oak Ridge National Laboratory    would have used several megs and
jonesn@orph01.phy.ornl.gov       eight lawyers to express theirs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:29 EDT 1995
Article: 1562 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Duct Cleaning Equipment
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:02:36 GMT
Organization: execpc.com
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Our company should be in the market for new duct cleaning technology
in the near future.  We have been a long time duct cleaner, going back
to the monster sausages (air bags) and have used the Pringle vacuum
trucks for the last few decades.

You can't beat the truck vacuums for supplying compressed air, but the
8" pipes and hoses that must be connected from the truck to the
furnace is rapidly becoming impractical due to the change in
construction of houses in the recent years.

Two systems I am looking at are the IAQ HEPA VAC that appears bulky
but is connected directly to the ducts in the basement, and the MEYER
portable vacuum that is wheeled up to the house but still needs  hoses
run throughout the house and down to the basement.

I would like opinions from those that are or have used them.  Thanks!


Steve Bukosky         sbukosky@execpc.com
Service Coordinator
Tom's Heating Service
Waukesha, Wisconsin



From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:30 EDT 1995
Article: 1563 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Refrigerant scales
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:02:41 GMT
Organization: execpc.com
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What are you fellow technicians using for refrigerant scales and being
satisfied with?  The new TIF electronic scale seems to be less fussy
than the previous model but still is sensitive to level.  What are you
happy with?


Steve Bukosky         sbukosky@execpc.com
Service Coordinator
Tom's Heating Service
Waukesha, Wisconsin



From sbukosky@execpc.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:32 EDT 1995
Article: 1564 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Digital Thermometers
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 1995 23:02:45 GMT
Organization: execpc.com
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I've gone through many electronic, digital thermometers through the
years and I think I have finally found one the I am happy with.  Oddly
enought it is from Universal instruments.  That company seems to have
made a big jump in quality in the past two years.  So if you are
looking for a good tmeter, check their's out.


Steve Bukosky         sbukosky@execpc.com
Service Coordinator
Tom's Heating Service
Waukesha, Wisconsin



From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:33 EDT 1995
Article: 1565 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: heat pump
Date: 3 Aug 1995 23:33:05 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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dxy55@cas.org (Dennis Yep) wrote:
>
>       Does it make sense to buy a heat pump for cooling and
>       moderate heating?  I plan to use my regular gas forced air
>       furnace for winter temps below the balance point.
>
>       A new heat pump costs more than a new AC unit, but the
>       salesman claimed that a heat pump would cool was well as a
>       regular AC unit and I would save money by running the unit
>       during the Fall in the heat mode. Of course, I would have
>       to buy a disconnect switch and a new thermostat.
>
>       If heat pumps have a coefficent of performance of around
>       3, ($1 buys you $3 worth of heat), then why would not
>       everyone have one?
>
>       I live in Columbus Ohio, where the winters are moderate
>       and rarely get much below zero degree F.

Depending upon electric rates, heat pumps can be very cheap heat. It may 
pay off to buy a heat pump instead of A/C but think carefully. If your 
utility helps out, then it may be a wise move. The Indy utility pays a 
$150 rebate for high efficiency A/C. It pays $400 for an add on heat pump 
plus gives a better electric rate. A heat pump can be $400-500 more than 
straight cooling unit. The dual-fuel kit (that lets you add the heat pump 
to gas furnace) can be $100-200 depending upon brand and how 
sophisticated it is plus the price of the heat pump thermostat over the 
standard one. Best bet is get a quote both ways and see how much more it 
is. Then remember there is LOTS more to go wrong with HP & dual-fuel 
control so potential for more repairs. Heat pumps are very efficient in 
the 30-50 range but in the 30-45 range spend a lot of time defrosting 
which chews up savings. 

Overall, I'd bet it won't be a good investment unless utility rebates 
pays for most of the extra over the A/C. We find that most people with 
both when they lose the HP don't replace it with another HP, but straight 
A/C.



From dom@dgsys.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:34 EDT 1995
Article: 1566 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Dom LaVigne <dom@dgsys.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Opening for Standards Engineer
Date: 2 Aug 1995 19:52:08 GMT
Organization: ARI (Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration Institute)
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ARI (Air-Conditioning & Refrigeration Institute), a national association 
of equipment manufacturers, is searching for an engineer to coordinate 
the development of its industry product standards.  The successful 
applicant will work with engineers from HVAC equipment manufacturers to 
develop standards covering the rating and application of cooling and 
refrigeration equipment.  The applicant selected will serve on national 
committees dealing with related standards-writing activities.

The applicant should have an engineering degree and a minimum of 5 years 
experience in standards development and writing.  The applicant should be 
familiar with the HVAC industry and equipment, and possess superior 
organizational and writing skills.  Knowledge of acoustics is a plus.

ARI offers a competitive salary and benefits package.  Please submit 
resume with salary history to:  <ari@dgsys.com>, or you can mail it to:  
Assistant Vice President, Engineering, Air-Conditioning and Refrigeration 
Institute, 4301 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 425, Arlington, Virginia 22203.

                             #  #  #  #  #



From elder@infi.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:35 EDT 1995
Article: 1567 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: elder@infi.net (Mark Elder)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Cooling tower algae
Date: 4 Aug 1995 00:34:04 GMT
Organization: Your Organization
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In article <3vqgai$19i@news.hexonx.com>, destel@hexonx.com (Dean Steliga) says:
>
>

>>Is anyone else having algae problems with their cooling tower and if so, how 
>>are you going about solving this problem?  Is some algae normal?  
>
>I don't have a lot of experience with this, but I have seen some articles on 
>using ozone water treatment systems for this sort of problem. <snip>

I have been reading and hearing the same thing about ozone water treatment.
One additional item that may be worth noting comes from a recent 
discussion with a local rep for ozone water treatment.  Apparently the
system is so effective that without good controls, it can actually eat
up your system components.  Just thought I would throw that out.

Mark Elder




From effeng@io.org Thu Aug  3 22:47:37 EDT 1995
Article: 1568 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: effeng@io.org (Scott Martin)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Water Towers
Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:38:45 GMT
Organization: Efficiency Engineering
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In article <3vmoom$cb5@news.netshop.net>, bambauer@netshop.net says...
>
>I'd like some information about a cooling device that I heard a very
>littlle about. These things are apparently in use in the the
>Southwest- Yuma, Phoniex,etc.  They use water falling down some
>baffles or ??   that chills it for use in cooling residential and
>commercial bldgs. These devices can be four feet square and sixteen
>feet high and probably bigger. My brother, who used to live in Yuma
>thought they were called water towers. I'm not talking about swamp
>coolers.
>
>Can anybody help me out here?
>
>
>bambauer@netshop.net
>
They are called cooling towers, and are very common devices in larger 
buildings.  Companies to talk to include Baltimore Air Coil, Marley 
Cooling Towers and Evapco, and the numbers should be available in the 
phone book.

Scott Martin
Efficiency Engineering



From pip@shore.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:38 EDT 1995
Article: 1569 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pip@shore.net (George Succi)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Wood stoves and catalytic converters
Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:48:53 GMT
Organization: North Shore Access
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I know this is a bit far from electric powered thermal transfer, 
but here goes...

Does any one know the type of catalytic converter used in modern wood 
stove design? Where can you get specs on the properties of such devices.
Why are they used for wood only, and not coal? 


------------------------George---------------------------------------
A Bose-Einstein condensate, now that's really cool


From pip@shore.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:39 EDT 1995
Article: 1570 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pip@shore.net (George Succi)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Household hot water heater
Date: 2 Aug 1995 20:57:03 GMT
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>I'm inolvolved in the development of a device that requires monitoring of
>the temperature inside the user's home hot water heater and regulate
>(on/off) the gas flow.

That's how they work already. There is a thermostat plastered to the
wall of the heater. If the temperature falls below X, the gas is turned
on. If it rises above X+dX, the gas is turned off.

Just what value are you adding to the system with your device???

------------------------George---------------------------------------
A Bose-Einstein condensate, now that's really cool


From pjm@nando.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:40 EDT 1995
Article: 1571 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Help me with this load calc, please ?
Date: 2 Aug 1995 21:37:02 GMT
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Lines: 79
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In article <DCot6w.8yA@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com>,
   Dave Munro <david_r_munro@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com> wrote:

~~>1. Allowances for fan heat need to be included. If the fan motor is in the air 
~~>stream the motor heat must also be added. 

	Very true, but the fan motor is not in the airstream.  I think I
can ignore gain from bearing friction.

~~>2. Unless there is active control of the air flow rate, the assumption that the 
~~>system is flowing 500 cfm probably is not true. 

	A good point I had missed.  Very true.  Also, the scientist types
who use the test chambers fed by this system have balancing dampers under
their control.  500 is the design spec for max load.  I really have no idea
how close to that they run, so I take that as my max load.

~~>3. Are we controlling the room or the supply air to the 70 F and 50-60% RH design 
~~>criteria. What are the estimated minimum and maximum sensible and latent room heat 
~~>gains?

	Supply air at those numbers in the supply duct.  There are no
gains ( at least that I need to deal with ) in the test chambers, because
this is a single pass, 100 % roof air system.  BTW, it has a special evap
for extra latent bias.

~~>Based on the results of tuning and repairs, it looks as though you have addressed 
~~>most of the issues relative to cooling. There may be issues in the future related to 
~~>the heating and/or intermittent weather conditions:

	Yeh, she barcharts for a 5 day period now at +/- 0.5 F, +/- 5%, each
centered on set point.  Acceptable to the scientists using the chambers, so
I can live with it. 

~~>1. What are the steam coil control parameters?

	Don't know, it's for winter anti-freeze pre-heat only, so I haven't
looked at it yet.  Roughly, I think it maintains a minimum 45F intake air.

~~>2. Does the air scrubber run continuously (24 hours per day 365 days per year)? Do 

	Yes

~~>you know its saturation efficiency?

	NO, and a major question in my mind.  I can only SWAG it at 85 -95 %

~~>Can you measure the entering dry bulb and 
~~>wetbulb conditions as well as the leaving dry bulb?

	Around the system, yes, but not around the scrubber by itself.

~~>3. Does the reheat coil have SCR control, or are their multiple stages?

	Yes, SCR on a PID controller.  That seems to work very well.  The
problem is no interaction between it and the RH control.  Each one just
tries to do it's own thing, regardless of the other.

~~>Please excuse my ignorance - What is a Faircloth variable multiplier?

	Your ignorance is vastly exceeded by my own.  :~)  The Faircloth
is a pneumatic device that multiplies it's control input by a set amount.
I think ( not sure ) this is also called a ratio relay by some other brands.

	The difficult thing in the RH control is that the sensor is 3-15,
then the Barber-Coleman is 0-20 output into the Faircloth, wich takes
that 0 -20 and multiplies it proportionaly ( as a throttling range kind of
thing ) to become 0 - 80 lbs output to the control head of the HG bypass.

	This whole rig series is REAL sensitive, and oscillates a bit 
no matter what I do.

	Given this system being a 'gross enthalpy' kind of thing, with
no 'room' loads and no recirculation of any air, does that help look at
the loads ?

	Thanks, Dave, for looking at this one !  :~)

Paul 


From Foreigner@somewhere.sg Thu Aug  3 22:47:41 EDT 1995
Article: 1572 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Foreigner@somewhere.sg (Anonymous)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Fuzzy controller?
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 01:38:00 GMT
Organization: X-Organization
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NNTP-Posting-Host: @cic228.ee.nus.sg

Hi, Friends

I am wondering whether there are comercial fuzzy logic controller being used
in HVAC system. If yes, could someone tell me where can I find their ADs or
manuals? Please post your answer only.

Thanks a lot.



From aschoen@mo.net Thu Aug  3 22:47:42 EDT 1995
Article: 1573 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: SUVA-95 Experiences?
Date: 4 Aug 1995 02:13:48 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
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In <3vmt2t$n82@frodo.smartlink.net>, Peter Kesselman <pkay@smartlink.net> writes:
>Does anyone have any experience with SUVA-95? It is a new alternative to 
>R13/503/23. It is supposed to have lower discharge temperature than R23. 
>We just ordered some directly from DuPont (it's only available in 
>limited supply so far.

Peter,  Suva 95, aka Suva X, aka KCD-9515 is a refrigerant blend of
R-23 and R-116.  It have a dew point curve almost identical to R-503,
and it has a temperature glide of about 1F.  So for all practical
purposes, it is an azeotrope like R-503.

R-13 and R-503 are on their way out, since they're both CFCs.  R-23
was the only HFC game in town for awhile.  Problem with it is its
inherently high operating discharge temperatures.  You generally
needed some means of suction gas desuperheating to prevent oil
breakdown problems.

Suva 95 looks good.  You can use R-503 TEV for Suva 95, though
you will get about 20 percent less capacity out of it compared
to R-503.  You may need to look at TEV sizing, and possibly other
component sizing.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From vcoa@aol.com Thu Aug  3 22:47:44 EDT 1995
Article: 1574 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: vcoa@aol.com (VCOA)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Request for Info on HVAC Industry
Date: 3 Aug 1995 22:14:20 -0400
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JPG, I'll pass your request on to the SEC.


From jlo@nyc.pipeline.com Wed Oct 11 00:14:54 EDT 1995
Article: 2848 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jlo@nyc.pipeline.com (John Ottaviano)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Radiant heat advice
Date: 4 Oct 1995 14:43:42 -0400
Organization: The Pipeline
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John: 
    Lennox Industries has the best dual purpose domestic hot water and
hydronic heating unit on the market.  It is called the CompleteHeat.  The
two heating circuits are isolated and it has the best comdined efficiencies
available.  It is ideal for in-floor radiant heating and domestic hot water
combinations.  You should contact a Lennox dealer in your area for
additional information. 
                                jlo@pipeline.com


From Sarah.Wanamaker@sonoma.edu Wed Oct 11 00:14:56 EDT 1995
Article: 2849 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Sarah Wanamaker <Sarah.Wanamaker@sonoma.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Date: 6 Oct 1995 00:39:42 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University
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jlo@nyc.pipeline.com (John Ottaviano) wrote:

>Ductboard is certainly more economical than galvanized sheetmetal, but >it is not as durable.  Branch collars have a tendancy to co=
me loose >over time and the fiberglass itself will degenerate with moisture.  It >can also be crushed more easily than sheemetal and=
 is obviously more >susceptible to rodents (although I doubt they'll be thrilled with the >taste of fibreglass).

	The opossums that chewed through the fiberglas ducting on my mobile home didn't seem to mind the taste at all, so be careful



From tmethod@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:14:58 EDT 1995
Article: 2850 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Chiller charge problem
Date: 5 Oct 1995 19:43:31 -0400
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In article <449090356wnr@bscltd.demon.co.uk>, John Cain
<john@bscltd.demon.co.uk> writes:

>
>To follow-up my original thread, please don't think I added vast amounts 
>of refrigerant, I added only about 1lb of R22 and after having noticed 
>no real change in system pressures I looked further into the heart of 
>the chiller and noticed the TEV (or as you would say TXV) problem.

250# head pressure (117F condensing temperature) at 60F ambient seems
excessive even if we assume refrigerant backed up from a restriction.
Backup from restriction is accompanied by reduced compressor load which
tends to lessen the effect. It has been my experience that high subcooling
associated with restriction is usually caused by someone overcharging the
system in an attempt to raise the suction pressure.

>I checked the obvious, like PD across drier and liquid line solenoid 
>valve, no temp drop so they were OK.  I also checked CHW flow rates 
>which were OK and the second stage was working fine hence I deduced it 
>was a fault on one stage only (evaporator fouling etc., eliminated).

If the second stage chiller cannot handle the load at 60F ambient (as
evidenced by 68F CWS), I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it is "working
fine". Nor would I deduce that the evaporator is not fouled. Insufficient
water flow tends to narrow the gap between evaporating temperature and CWS
temperature, while fouling (or high superheat) widens the gap. Without
knowing the evaporating temperature on the second stage, I would not
discount the possibility.

>I am certain from other threads (and direct e-mail, many thanks for this 
>but please in future post to the group as it may help others) that it's 
>the TXV. I also agree that there may be non-condensables in the system, 
>as I have only recently taken over the contract.  

Non-condensables would be another possible explanation for the high
subcooling.

>I like the thought of changing the filter-drier as a 'good practice' 
>measure and take this occasion to thank everyone for their responses.
>
>The group will hear in due course how the problem is solved, when I 
>return to site (this time with the proper equipment and new TXV) to take 
>accurate measurements. 

In addition to knowing how the problem is solved, I would love to see a
full set of measurements for both systems. Preferably before and after.

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From tmethod@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:00 EDT 1995
Article: 2851 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 5 Oct 1995 19:50:22 -0400
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In article <44sn60$ou4_001@grail917.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
milligan) writes:

>	At this time, I plan on a 1:1.5 ratio on the pneumatic relay, so
>that a 0 - 20 # change out of the prop controller results in 0 - 30 to
>the HGBV, giving me a max evap of 55 + 30 = 85#, in other words each
>1# change from the prop controller raises ( or lowers ) my evap pressure
>1 1/2 #.  Also, my max pneumatic pressure will never be able to exceed my

>suction pressure, so the next leak will be freon out, not air in !
>
>

What's wrong with this picture? Paul, I have read this paragraph over and
over and there is something wrong with the logic (last sentence in
particular), but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe I'm missing
something. Is the ratio adjustable on the HGBV? Doesn't the pneumatic
pressure have to exceed the evap pressure in order to open it? Talk to me.

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From kduke@chollian.dacom.co.kr Wed Oct 11 00:15:02 EDT 1995
Article: 2852 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Doug, J., Hahn" <kduke@chollian.dacom.co.kr>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: WWW sites for Compressor ?
Date: 6 Oct 1995 02:34:05 GMT
Organization: DACOM
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I am looking for the sites having information
of compressors.

Anyone who knows the sites name, please 
inform me.

:->
Doug, J Hahn
>from  Korea



From acadmanr12@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:06 EDT 1995
Article: 2853 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: acadmanr12@aol.com (ACADManR12)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: 5 Oct 1995 22:47:24 -0400
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NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

My company recently installed such a system in a large school and I have
designed similar systems for large commercial applications.  The problem
with an ice storage system in a residential application is the associated
costs of the new equipment required to convert the present AC system from
DX refrigeration to chilled water.  Not only would it require new coils in
the existing furnace or a new furnace itself, but the existing condensing
unit would not function as a proper chiller to make ice.  The cost payback
of a proper ice storage system would be in the range of 75 to 100 years
and this would not be good money management.  

A better solution would be to install a programmable thermostat.
ACADManR12

"Please Lord,   All I want is a day off!!"


From rlleach@bihs.net Wed Oct 11 00:15:09 EDT 1995
Article: 2854 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: rlleach@bihs.net (Raymond Leach)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Newbie
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:01:27 GMT
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Hello I am Raymond Leach and have been doing Heating and Cooling for the last 
15 years at a southern University. I just thought I would introduce my self 
and say I have been enjoyed reading  this group this past few days . Thanx.


From pjm@nando.net Wed Oct 11 00:15:11 EDT 1995
Article: 2855 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ACCA -- Super highway address?
Date: 5 Oct 1995 01:14:14 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
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In article <44va35$991@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
   golfer483@aol.com (GOLFER483) wrote:
~~>Does anyone know ACCA's ----- Http  --- address?
~~>
~~>Thanks.
~~>
~~>keith
~~>

Yup...

Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA)
www.acca.org

It will be in the next links page update  :~)

Paul

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :~)
_________________________________________________________

http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/ is the home page of
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac


From dfru@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:14 EDT 1995
Article: 2856 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dfru@aol.com (Dfru)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Plumbing & Fire Protection Newsgroups
Date: 6 Oct 1995 00:56:29 -0400
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Does anyone know of any plumbing engineering or fire protection
engineering newsgroups or web sites? Please advise.


From sbukosky@execpc.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:17 EDT 1995
Article: 2857 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: sbukosky@execpc.com (Steve Bukosky)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: York residential equipment
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 01:56:38 GMT
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York has been absent in my area for some time.  Does anyone know what
they have for furnaces now?  Do they have dual input and ECM units?


Steve Bukosky         sbukosky@execpc.com
Service Coordinator
Tom's Heating Service
Waukesha, Wisconsin

Agent .99a




From dfru@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:20 EDT 1995
Article: 2858 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dfru@aol.com (Dfru)
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Pinhole leaksRe: Copper pipework - Pinhole corrosion
Date: 5 Oct 1995 00:55:03 -0400
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr:18837 sci.engr.mech:18869 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:2858

I too am quite interested in this subject, and would be most interested in
the responses. 

I have done some research on the subject. If the piping is not properly
reamed, turbulence downstream from the unreamed joint can cause pinhole
leaks over time. This is most commonly a problem where you have a
recirculating domestic hot water system. The continuous flow in the system
accelerates appearance of the problem.


From ryeo@pcmail.nerc-bas.ac.uk Wed Oct 11 00:15:23 EDT 1995
Article: 2859 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
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From: ryeo@pcmail.nerc-bas.ac.uk (Richard Yeo)
Subject: Re: Controlling the solar scourge
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:38284 alt.energy.renewable:9598 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:2859 alt.architecture.alternative:4862

In article <44m3fi$mb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) writes:
>Xref: info sci.energy:29228 alt.energy.renewable:1453 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:2182 alt.architecture.alternative:4083
>Path: info!strath-cs!str-ccsun!zippy.dct.ac.uk!dundee.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.ee.vill.edu!not-for-mail
>Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative
>Subject: Controlling the solar scourge
>Message-ID: <44m3fi$mb@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
>From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
>Date: 1 Oct 1995 09:01:38 -0400
>Organization: Villanova University
>NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
>Lines: 46


>From Steve Baer's 1979 book, _Sunspots_:

>  Solar Insecticide

>  Money attracts university and industry experts. I am suspicious of such
>  experts. After listening to a meeting for three days, I think I understand
>  the mechanics of the government's grants for work on solar energy.

>  When people want to get rid of a kind of insect, one method is to not
>  directly kill the insect, but to raise and relese vast quantities of sterile
>  male insects. The sterile insects make up the major portion of the male
>  insect population and thus, after mating, most females are infertile.
>  After a few generations the insect population is down to a handful.
>  I see the projects and research teams chosen by the government as sterile.

>  When someone is interested in solar energy he is likely to bump into
>  publicity or people associated with such projects. Result: he is advised
>  that solar heating, cooling, or power are "not feasible at this time."
>  I can't find any one person who has planned this solar insecticide scheme;
>  I do not think he exists. Rather, these techniques seem to naturally grow
>  out of an unspoken understanding that oil, coal, gas and nuclear power
>  are the proper energy sources. If the sun is so good, why doesn't it belong
>  to GE, GM, ITT or the NRC?

>  Solar Vaccination

>  Another way to look at the money now spent on solar energy research
>  is that it is being used as a vaccination against the full blown disease
>  of solar energy utilization. A certain amount of solar energy activity
>  is encouraged so that the country can reach an actively immune state.
>  Those who own or control the competing energy sources--coal, oil, gas,
>  nuclear--can then become familiar with the threat--solar energy. Projects
>  can be undertaken that will result in failure or extraordinarily high
>  prices. Reports--stacks of them--will indicate hopeless bottlenecks and
>  contradictions in the design and manufacture of solar heating equipment. 

>  I would expect many of the projects to be undertaken in the midst of
>  huge government laboratories primarily devoted to other activities,
>  such as nuclear energy. There the avid solar energy worker is likely
>  to find himself transferred when he becomes too productive.

>  It is certainly fortunate that a great deal of success is within reach
>  of the backyard inventor and the small shop.

>Nick


 


From barock@ukans.edu Wed Oct 11 00:15:26 EDT 1995
Article: 2861 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Need information on duct sizing and load calculation.
Message-ID: <1995Oct5.074203.105061@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
From: "Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E." <barock@ukans.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 95 07:42:03 CDT
References: <SMCARLSON.36.0008DB3D@MMM.COM>
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smcarlson@mmm.com (Steve Carlson) wrote:
>I'm a nubie to this group.  
>
>Is there a FAQ available that talks about how to compute heat loss and duct 
>work sizing for forced air heating?  Any information would be helpful.  I'm 
>remodling my house and doing some major reducting.  
>
>Thanks,
>
>-=Steve=-
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________
>Steve M. Carlson                email: smcarlson@mmm.com
>3M IT                               phone: (612)737-1318
>3M Center 224-4N-20
>P.O. Box 33224
>Saint Paul, MN 55133-3224
>__________________________________________________________

If it is a large job, maybe you should hire a P.E. to redesign your
system.  If it is a small job, an experienced mechanical contractor can 
size your new system.

-- 
*************************************************************************
Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E.        Voice:  (913) 864-3434
The University of Kansas          Fax:    (913) 864-5099
Architectural Engineering Dept.   E-mail: barock@ukans.edu
Marvin Hall                       HomePage: http://energy.arce.ukans.edu/
Lawrence, Kansas 66045-2222       Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU!
*************************************************************************




From jlo@nyc.pipeline.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:28 EDT 1995
Article: 2862 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!pipeline!not-for-mail
From: jlo@nyc.pipeline.com (John Ottaviano)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Layman question: Duct material
Date: 5 Oct 1995 08:25:23 -0400
Organization: The Pipeline
Lines: 12
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References: <44v8pu$ifg@tsunami.traveller.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com

Ductboard is certainly more economical than galvanized sheetmetal, but it
is not as durable.  Branch collars have a tendancy to come loose over time
and the fiberglass itself will degenerate with moisture.  It can also be
crushed more easily than sheemetal and is obviously more susceptible to
rodents (although I doubt they'll be thrilled with the taste of
fibreglass).  Another consideradtion for the future is that sheetmetal
ducts are easier to clean.  If you are concerned about sound, just make
sure that the first 10 to 15 feet of supply and return duct are lined with
acoustical insulation (usually standard practice). 
 
-- 
John Ottaviano 


From dom@dgsys.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:30 EDT 1995
Article: 2863 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!usenet
From: Dom LaVigne <dom@dgsys.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Desiccant sites
Date: 5 Oct 1995 13:30:57 GMT
Organization: ARI
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I'm looking for interesting/informative desiccant sites to show a 
group of people, as part of an Internet demonstration.  Any 
suggestions would be appreciated.

(Please e-mail directly to me -- thanks in advance!)

-- 



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dom LaVigne 		  	Catch our Wave on ARI's CoolNet 	
Site Administrator -- ARI 	http://www.ari.org		
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From shammatt@sos.net Wed Oct 11 00:15:31 EDT 1995
Article: 2864 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: shammatt@sos.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Copper pipework - Pinhole corrosion
Date: 5 Oct 1995 13:20:16 GMT
Organization: Steve Hammatt, Mount Vernon, WA USA
Lines: 20
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>   dave@portscn.zynet.co.uk (David Thompson) writes:
>  Can anyone offer informed comment on the latest research or opinion relating
>  to the causes of random pinhole corrosion of copper pipework in hot and cold
>  water systems? 
>  
 snip
>  
>  
>>>>
I've found that often this type of corrosion is localized galvanic corrosion
caused by bit of iron/steel from upstream pipe landing on the copper
and causing a local cell to form.  I recall one instance where heat pumps
were installed close to power supply transformers; the electro-magnetic field
caused galvanic corrosion at the pipe-to-brass fittings, then the resulting
rust particles traveled downstream and landed on the small copper heat exchange
tubes (holding freon).  Small pinhole leaks developed on the small copper
tubes and the heat pumps became boat anchors in rapid fashion!

Good Luck



From barock@ukans.edu Wed Oct 11 00:15:36 EDT 1995
Article: 2865 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Lightning
Message-ID: <1995Oct5.095017.105068@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>
From: "Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E." <barock@ukans.edu>
Date: 5 Oct 95 09:50:17 CDT
References: <44ssi0$6ak$1@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>
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Ed Taylor <71360.2256@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>I recently had some damage to my hvac system.  Repairman said 
>lightning.  Sent compressor to engineering firm who said no 
>evidence of lightning.  Thermostat, heater/ac control box and 
>some electrical components on the exterior unit all burned at the 
>same time.   Could lightning cause this damage and not damage the 
>compressor?  What else could cause this level of damge?  No 
>circuit breakers were tripped.  Any ideas?
>
>Ed

You should have that circuit breaker replaced.  It may have been damaged.

-- 
*************************************************************************
Brian A. Rock, Ph.D., P.E.        Voice:  (913) 864-3434
The University of Kansas          Fax:    (913) 864-5099
Architectural Engineering Dept.   E-mail: barock@ukans.edu
Marvin Hall                       HomePage: http://energy.arce.ukans.edu/
Lawrence, Kansas 66045-2222       Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU!
*************************************************************************




From 100637.760@compuserve.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:39 EDT 1995
Article: 2866 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: 100637.760@compuserve.com (Colin Pearson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: CDM Regulations, UK
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 14:58:21 GMT
Organization: BSRIA
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From: Rohan Nanayakkara

I am involved in  research project to examine the requirements of CDM
Regulations for a Health & Safety File. The end product of this
exercise is expected to be a guidance document aimed at the Building
services Industry on the preparation of the Health & Safety File. 

As a part of this exercise, I am looking into the possibility of
producing the Health & Safety File as a computer based information
system using;

CAFM software,

Specialist software for O&M Manuals, or,

Any other software package specially developed for CDM applications.

I am interested to hear from people or organisations who would be able
to provide information on this topic.

Thanks

Rohan Nanayakkara

Research Engineer, Building Services
My views are my own and not necessarily those of my organisation



From whelan@stsci.edu Wed Oct 11 00:15:42 EDT 1995
Article: 2867 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: whelan@stsci.edu
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 6 Oct 95 11:41:49 EST
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore, MD 21218
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This is a three part scenario

History:
========
We are using heat pumps to heat our house and would like to change the heat 
source from electric to oil. We live in Maryland which does not make the heat
pump a good source of heat durning the colder winter months. To add to the 
problem our family room is located on a cement slab partially under ground 
maiking this room one chilly experience. The heat pumps are the new energy 
efficient types from Carrier.(approx 3years old) The house has several laysers
of floors helping to make the family room (without the thermosat) very cold.
Our electric bills are get very high durning the winter.

Possible Solution:
==================
I was talking to a Heating contractor and he recommend that we use oil forced
air heat with a water baseboard radiator heat in the family room. He said that 
we would still beable to retain the heatpumps as a second source of heating. 
The heating furnace would have a power exhaust unit (no chimney required) vented
out of the side of the house. When the outside tempature was warm enough the
heat pumps would run then when it got inefficient then the oil would take over.
Or he said that we could just run the oil all the time. The unit is a 85000btu
it would heat approx 1500sq ft area. 

Questions:
==========
How efficient are the oil burners?
Is the water radiator heat reliable with not to many problems?
Are the power vents very reliable?
Do the power vents cause the siding of the house to be covered with soot.
How much would we reduce the electric/heating bill by switching to oil?
What is the expected life of the oil furnace.
How reliable are the oil furnaces and how often do they need matenance?


Any and all comments would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Mike Whelan


From c4p@ornl.gov Wed Oct 11 00:15:53 EDT 1995
Article: 2868 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "C. Wayne Parker" <c4p@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Newbie
Date: 5 Oct 1995 17:42:49 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Oak Ridge National Laboratory
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rlleach@bihs.net (Raymond Leach) wrote:
>Hello I am Raymond Leach and have been doing Heating and Cooling for the last 
>15 years at a southern University. I just thought I would introduce my self 
>and say I have been enjoyed reading  this group this past few days . Thanx.

Raymond,
Welcome to the group!  There's a large variety of expertise available 
here and many, many different individuals from every aspect of HVAC have 
been participating.  Jump right in as you see fit...but don't drink the 
coffee ;^)  Wayne

-- 
     _________,-------------------------,
    / C.Wayne Parker,PE  c4p@ornl.gov _/
   | Oak Ridge, Tennessee ==> X <== _/ 
  / Lockheed Martin Energy Systems_/
 /_______________________________/




From c4p@ornl.gov Wed Oct 11 00:15:54 EDT 1995
Article: 2869 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "C. Wayne Parker" <c4p@ornl.gov>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: embodied energy of hvac
Date: 5 Oct 1995 17:45:50 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin Energy Systems, Oak Ridge National Laboratory
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brunners@albinoni.Colorado.EDU (BRUNNER  STEVEN JOHN) wrote:
>DOes anyone have any information on what it takes (energy especially) to produce
>a chiller, packaged DX system, or a commercial evaporative cooler.  I am doing a
>life-cycle energy comparison of different systems.

By saying "produce" do you actually mean the energy required to 
*manufacture" this equipment...or rules of thumb on their systems' energy 
use after installation???

-- 
     _________,-------------------------,
    / C.Wayne Parker,PE  c4p@ornl.gov _/
   | Oak Ridge, Tennessee ==> X <== _/ 
  / Lockheed Martin Energy Systems_/
 /_______________________________/




From slyhorse@crl.com Wed Oct 11 00:15:58 EDT 1995
Article: 2870 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: slyhorse@crl.com (Noel Susskind)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Date: 6 Oct 1995 12:42:22 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4540qu$4eo@crl4.crl.com>
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Richard Byrd (richbyrd@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: Mark, stay away from fiberboard. Its main advantage is it is cheap; but
: over time it deteriorates and fiberglass blows out (its an irritant). 
: And if it ever gets wet, you throw it away, its unsalvageable.

: Never use fiberglass exposed to the air stream.

<sarcasm=on>
I know Knauf and Owens-Corning would be pleased to see this comment.  
<sarcasm= off>

The industry has been haevily spending on promoting thisa stuff.  
Personnally Im not crazy about it.  I only permit it in cheap commercial 
jobs, and in your case I would definitely say....metal, with fg wrap.  As 
for the animals, I suggest you construct barriers to their entrance.  
They are not permitted in any event in to my crawlspace, and I make sure 
nothing bigger than a baby mouse can squirm there way in.  Do sonmething 
about that.
-- 
<><><><><><><><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><><><><><><><><><
See my web page <http://www.crl.com/~slyhorse>
<><><><><><><><><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<><><><><<<<<<><>


From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:01 EDT 1995
Article: 2872 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: York residential equipment
Date: 6 Oct 1995 00:11:56 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
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YO!

York hasn't made much inroads here but since we've helped out their 
distributor with a couple of problem customers, I've gotten to know the 
line. They gave me a product catalog on the stuff. They do have ECM air 
handlers and I believe the Diamond 80 has a ECM model. No 2 stage as of 
yet. Seems like good furnace line. Had heard of some problems with the 
new 90 but heard they were solved. Both 80 & 90 use tubular heat 
exchanger, hot surface ignition. 90 is sealed combustion. We put in a 12 
SEER pump last fall to replace one the competition ruined! The idiots 
removed the heating cap tube. So when reversing valve switched to heat, 
no refrigerant flow. They had so much trouble that York replaced it with 
10 SEER and they paid the extra to get 12 SEER & matched coil for utility 
incentives. Impressive unit. Copeland scroll, demand defrost, the 
Yorkgard module even includes outdoor stats. 5 year parts warranty across 
the board. Have dual compressor 17 SEER A/C so probably can claim most 
efficient air cooled system.

Stuff is pricey - along the lines of Trane & Lennox.

You folks looking for another line?



From richbyrd@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:03 EDT 1995
Article: 2873 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: richbyrd@ix.netcom.com (Richard Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Date: 6 Oct 1995 01:19:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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References: <44v8pu$ifg@tsunami.traveller.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 05  6:19:15 PM PDT 1995

In <44v8pu$ifg@tsunami.traveller.com> Mark Slone <slone@traveller.com>
writes: 
>
>I've gotten two quotes for a heat pump system for a new 2200 ft2 ranch
>house (ducts run in a crawlspace). Both have bid some kind of
>insulated, foil-covered board for the ducts (by Certainteed). Wouldn't
>steel ducts with insulation on the outside be better? The house is in
>an area where animals may be a problem. 
>
>I guess I could see where the insulated board would be quieter than
>steel ducts, but I also wonder how they would hold up over the years.
>I'm considering a humidifier, and would that keep them too damp?
>
>Thanks for the help!
>
>-Mark Slone        slone@traveller.com
>
>


Mark, stay away from fiberboard. Its main advantage is it is cheap; but
over time it deteriorates and fiberglass blows out (its an irritant). 
And if it ever gets wet, you throw it away, its unsalvageable.

Never use fiberglass exposed to the air stream.

Rich Byrd
Dir. IAQ Investigations
Machado Environmental Corp.
Glendale, CA
{all opinions exclusively my own}


From kduke@chollian.dacom.co.kr Wed Oct 11 00:16:05 EDT 1995
Article: 2874 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Doug, J., Hahn" <kduke@chollian.dacom.co.kr>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Compressor related sites
Date: 6 Oct 1995 02:37:48 GMT
Organization: DACOM
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I'd like to know the WWW sites related compressor news...

Help me...



From wpb5@psu.edu Wed Oct 11 00:16:07 EDT 1995
Article: 2875 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:06:07 GMT
Organization: CAC
Lines: 36
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ACADManR12 wrote:

>The problem
>with an ice storage system in a residential application is the associated
>costs of the new equipment required to convert the present AC system from
>DX refrigeration to chilled water...

Not true.

Quote from Lennox "TES Update" dated January, 1995:

"The multiple-patented Lennox Cool Thermal Energy Storage (CTES) concept was 
developed to reduce on-peak electric power demand due to air conditioning...

To meet these objectives, the Lennox CTES concept is an _all_DX_ 
refrigerant-based design (no secondary circulating fluids) that integrates 
with the HVAC system refrigeration circuit providing three distinct modes of 
operation:

Direct cooling at system ARI rated efficiency.
Ice making.
Ice discharging cooling."

This is the equipment I mentioned seeing at the equipment show in Chicago in 
January.  As I stated previously, the problem with residential storage is that 
most rate structures don't include demand charges.  Therefore, without utility 
incentives to prop up the technology, it has no economic advantage over less 
expensive conventional systems.

Bill

--
William P. Bahnfleth
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State University-University Park
wpb5@psu.edu


From ganni@ndcee.ctc.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:09 EDT 1995
Article: 2876 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "H. Hina Ganni" <ganni@ndcee.ctc.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: modeling of organic finishing processes
Date: 6 Oct 1995 17:37:08 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Technologies Corporation
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We are developing process simulation models for various applications, 
including at this time technologies in our Organic Finishing Center.  I 
would like to know what else is already out in the literature or in use 
at various sites, including industry, academia, and military 
installations.  Technologies of particular interest include: application 
of paint using electrocoating, powder coating, or liquid spray coating, 
and the pretreatment of parts (cleaning and conversion coating 
application) prior to organic finishing.

Any information on the following topics would be greatly appreciated, as 
would other related information, data, or comments.

1.  Work previously or currently in process for modeling organic 
finishing processes.  The information can include literature references, 
published reports, discussions of equations used to describe or define 
the processes, theoretical background, etc.

2.  Information on the coating efficiency associated with either the 
pretreatment or coating processes.  Problems or limitations associated 
with the various processes.  Relationships between coating thickness and 
process operating parameters.

Please send your responses directly to me at: ganni@ndcee.ctc.com as I am 
not always a regular reader of this newsgrouop.

I will compile and summarize the information and make it available upon 
request.  Sources will be acknowledged unless you request otherwise.

Thanks in advance.
Hina Ganni
Engineer

National Defense Center for Environmental Excellence
Concurrent Technologies Corporation
1450 Scalp Avenue
Johnstown, PA 15904

voice:  (814) 269-6422
fax:     (814) 269-2798
email:   ganni@ndcee.ctc.com




From pjm@nando.net Wed Oct 11 00:16:10 EDT 1995
Article: 2877 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 6 Oct 1995 21:33:03 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
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In article <451qvu$20g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
   tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) wrote:
~~>In article <44sn60$ou4_001@grail917.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
~~>milligan) writes:
~~>
~~>>	At this time, I plan on a 1:1.5 ratio on the pneumatic relay, so
~~>>that a 0 - 20 # change out of the prop controller results in 0 - 30 to
~~>>the HGBV, giving me a max evap of 55 + 30 = 85#, in other words each
~~>>1# change from the prop controller raises ( or lowers ) my evap pressure
~~>>1 1/2 #.  Also, my max pneumatic pressure will never be able to exceed my
~~>
~~>>suction pressure, so the next leak will be freon out, not air in !
~~>
~~>What's wrong with this picture? Paul, I have read this paragraph over and
~~>over and there is something wrong with the logic (last sentence in
~~>particular), but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe I'm missing
~~>something. Is the ratio adjustable on the HGBV? Doesn't the pneumatic
~~>pressure have to exceed the evap pressure in order to open it? Talk to me.

	Not sure what you're seeing...The pressure of the control air feeding
the HGBV is variable 0 - 80.  The response of the HGBV is not
adjustable, but the minimum evap pressure is.  There's a spring inside,
with an adjusting stem, much like TXV, such that spring pressure plus
pneumatic pressure = total pressure, thus the spring is doing most of the
work of overcoming system pressure, and the pneumatic rides 'on top' of it.

	Assuming I set the minimum pressure spring ( via the stem )to 55#,
at 0 # pneumatic I have 55 # evap, at 1 # pneumatic I have ( 55 + 1 = 56 )
back, etc.  The ratio question comes in where the standard RH sensor feeds
the standard proportional band controller, with reverse action output, and
I have to determine how much of a change in sensor pressure ( varying in 
10ths of lbs ) will result in what proportional span of the output ( 0 - 20),
which will then be ratio-relayed at a 1 : 1.5 factor ( as I'm thinking right
now, anyway :~)  ), such that actual control to the HGBV is at a span of
0 - 30 ( over the minimum set).

	To rephrase my question - let's say my RH sensor says the RH is 1%
too low ( set at 60%, reading 59% ).  How do I think about how much I have
to change my evap pressure to let 1% RH more through the system ?  And
what does it mean in terms of evap pressure ?  Raise the back too high, and
the RH will overshoot considerably.  Don't raise it enough, and the RH will
remain too low.  Keep in mind that there is electric reheat coming in to
deal with the Dry Bulb effect of the system when it over-cools, I'm only
trying to worry about latent.  As I see it, what I'm trying to accomplish by
changing evap pressure is to manipulate the SHR around a desired dew point,
in terms of final RH output. 

	So, how can I predict evap pressure vs SHR vs RH ?

	Interesting question, eh ?  :~)

Paul

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :~)
_________________________________________________________

http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/ is the home page of
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 11 00:16:12 EDT 1995
Article: 2878 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Humidity control rambling
Date: 7 Oct 1995 06:20:43 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
Lines: 69
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NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

It's easy to just open a window in wintertime. Or turn on an exhaust fan
with a humidistat. I use a dehumidifier with a COP of 1.6...

My house is fairly airtight, so I have to work hard to keep the humidity
down in the winter. Makes sense, no? People, showers, plants, cooking, etc.
Houses should be airtight, with air-air heat exchangers.

In summertime, perhaps we could use the sun to dry out a powdered dessicant
like the stuff sold in bags, that people put in closets to absorb water, and
then put in the oven to dry out again. Silica gel? Baking soda? How quickly
does this stuff absorb water, or dry at 130 F? I guess it works better when
it is very dry, the air is very wet, and there is a large surface exposed
to the air. I want numbers.

Could we use two alternating solar thermal panels, ie two glazed boxes,
air heaters with some powder in the bottom, one box being dried by the sun,
and the other absorbing humidity from the house air? When the absorbing box
becomes too moist, ie the exiting air becomes too humid, switch the boxes,
and start using the dry box while evaporating the water from the wet one.
Doesn't concrete also controls humidity, adding or taking water out of the
air, until the concrete becomes too damp to do that?

Perhaps this could be done with one box, a solar chimney made with a thin
layer of concrete, with an 8 hour time constant (?) so it dries out in the
sun during the day, and absorbs water from cool air that flows down the
chimney into the house at night. There must be a simpler and more continuous
process to do this. At any rate, we don't want to heat the house air in the
summer, while trying to dry it out. So the house air should somehow pass over
cool, dry dessicant. Perhaps this means that after drying out the wet box,
it needs to cool down for a while, before we try to use it to dry house air.

We could dry air in the summer by exposing it to some house surface that
is a little cooler. My auto radiator full of 55 F well water condenses
humidity out of my 80F house air in the summer. A basement floor with a
dip-tube air duct and a fan to blow air up into the house would do the same,
with a vapor barrier and a floor drain, and perhaps a dehumidifier near the
floor drain. Baruch Givoni's new book, _Passive And Low Energy Cooling of
Buildings_, addresses systems like these, without the dehumidifier. 

Herbach and Rademan (800-848-8001) sell excellent Navy surplus humidistats.
$4.95 for a really fine little machine, their part number TM89HVC5203, with
a setpoint range of 20-80% humidity and a 3-6% on/off differential. It has
a microswitch rated at 115V, 7.5 A, that opens on humidity rise, but can
be rewired to close on humidity rise. Carefully made and packed for the Navy
in sealed, canvas bags, lined with foil. I imagine the Navy must have paid
at least $300 each for these, but now they make very nice tinkerer's toys.

I installed one with a solenoid valve (H&R also sells cheap solenoid valves)
and a needle valve to help a friend raise winter humidity levels in her
New York City apartment, by venting steam into the room air from her radiator,
which sometimes frightens the cats :-) Since there was only one thermostat 
in her 25 unit apartment building, this comes off of a new 1/8" pipe in series
with a new Danfoss mechanical thermostat, that blocks the flow to the steam
trap on her one-pipe steam radiator unless the room is too cool. It's not
exactly independent control of heat and humidity, but it works. Removing the
other radiator in the apartment and insulating the three bare steam risers
that passed through the rooms finished the job. Now she can close the windows
in the winter, and even wear sweaters. What about the other 24 apartments?

Or one might use a humidistat to turn on a small water pump in a fountain,
eg the garden fountains that make a thin globe of water, like a transparent
basketball, when a room gets too dry. I've heard that fountains in shopping
malls, hotel lobbies, etc, are sometimes controlled this way. The fountain
needs a float valve and a tap water connection to keep it full. Grainger sells
cheap float valves. The fountain might go on top of a toilet tank, like the
hand washing bowls sold by Real Goods...

Nick



From tmethod@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:15 EDT 1995
Article: 2879 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 7 Oct 1995 00:04:55 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <4547g9$oso_001@grail719.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
milligan) writes:

>In article <451qvu$20g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>   tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) wrote:
>~~>In article <44sn60$ou4_001@grail917.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
>~~>milligan) writes:
>~~>
>~~>>	At this time, I plan on a 1:1.5 ratio on the pneumatic relay, so
>~~>>that a 0 - 20 # change out of the prop controller results in 0 - 30
to
>~~>>the HGBV, giving me a max evap of 55 + 30 = 85#, in other words each
>~~>>1# change from the prop controller raises ( or lowers ) my evap
pressure
>~~>>1 1/2 #.  Also, my max pneumatic pressure will never be able to
exceed my
>~~>
>~~>>suction pressure, so the next leak will be freon out, not air in !
>~~>
>~~>What's wrong with this picture? Paul, I have read this paragraph over
and
>~~>over and there is something wrong with the logic (last sentence in
>~~>particular), but I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe I'm missing
>~~>something. Is the ratio adjustable on the HGBV? Doesn't the pneumatic
>~~>pressure have to exceed the evap pressure in order to open it? Talk to
me.
>
>	Not sure what you're seeing...The pressure of the control air
feeding
>the HGBV is variable 0 - 80.  The response of the HGBV is not
>adjustable, but the minimum evap pressure is.  There's a spring inside,
>with an adjusting stem, much like TXV, such that spring pressure plus
>pneumatic pressure = total pressure, thus the spring is doing most of the
>work of overcoming system pressure, and the pneumatic rides 'on top' of
it.
>
>	Assuming I set the minimum pressure spring ( via the stem )to 55#,
>at 0 # pneumatic I have 55 # evap, at 1 # pneumatic I have ( 55 + 1 = 56
)
>back, etc.  The ratio question comes in where the standard RH sensor
feeds
>the standard proportional band controller, with reverse action output,
and
>I have to determine how much of a change in sensor pressure ( varying in 
>10ths of lbs ) will result in what proportional span of the output ( 0 -
20),
>which will then be ratio-relayed at a 1 : 1.5 factor ( as I'm thinking
right
>now, anyway :~)  ), such that actual control to the HGBV is at a span of
>0 - 30 ( over the minimum set).
>
>

If this is the case then how could the HGBV have leaked air into the
system with a minimum setting of 68# spring pressure?

Gary

===========================================
I pretend to work. They pretend to pay me. I pretend to eat.
     -Anonymous Soviet Citizen-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:17 EDT 1995
Article: 2880 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Doug Geddes <dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com>
Organization: CRS Online's Frontier
Subject: Re: Heat pump
Message-ID: <071095.0227004193.n@frontier.canrem.com>
Date: 07 Oct 1995 02:27:00 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Lines: 53

>In article <44n3od$ais@nntp.igs.net>, probson@ptbo.igs.net (Peter Robson)
>writes:
>
>>
>>Hoping that this is the right group to contact, I have a problem,
>>relating to a heatpump, that needs solving.
>>
>>The electric fan motor on my house furnace recently seized  and
>>whether it contributed to or there was  just a coincidence, parts of
>>the A-type evaporator coil in the plenum of the furnace and connecting
>>pipework leading to it began to freeze.
>>
>>The electric motor has now been replaced with a new one and the
>>freezing has just begun again.
>>
>>The ambient rise in temperature then and now is something that I've
>>noticed which may have caused the airconditioning to react.
>>
>>What should I be checking out to correct this problem?  What else do
>>you need to know to help me correct my predicament?
>>
>>
>
>You have, indeed, found the right group. Failure of the indoor fan motor
>(insufficient airflow across the coil) will definitely cause the coil to
>freeze. With the fan motor replaced, the coil should not be freezing.
>Possibly the new motor is set on the wrong HP (fan speed). Check the
>temperature of the air entering the furnace (return air) and the
>temperature of the air leaving the furnace (supply air). The difference
>between these two temperatures should be no more than 20F for standard
>efficiency and no more than 26F for high efficiency systems. Exceeding
>these numbers indicates insufficient airflow and may cause the coil to
>freeze.
>
Hope this he>lps,
>
>Gary

Good advice Gary.  I would like to add a little more in case the motor is 
wired for itd highest speed.  The new motor may be less powerful than the one 
originally in the furnace.  It may be rated at less horse power - 1/4 vs 1/3 
for example, or it may be less efficient.  That is, it may use the same amount 
of energy but produce less blower speed.  Another potential problem is a 
blockage in your duct system.  Has a return air inlet been obstructed, have 
dampers been accidently closed (possible by duct cleaners), has sound 
insulation fallen off the duct into the air stream, are too many floor 
registers closed or blocked, is the air conditioning coil clogged with dust ( 
a reas possibility if you do not have an electronic air cleaner or a special 
high efficiency filter, and most importantly, is the filter clean.

Hope this all helps.

Doug


From dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:19 EDT 1995
Article: 2881 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Doug Geddes <dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com>
Organization: CRS Online's Frontier
Subject: Re: Newsgroup in The News
Message-ID: <071095.0247364193.n@frontier.canrem.com>
Date: 07 Oct 1995 02:47:36 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Lines: 43

>Lynette, Andy and Newsgroup:
>
>This idea of publishing threads from this Newsgroup was developed 
>entirely as a way to spread good technical information to those of our 
>industry who, for whatever reason, do not have access to the Internet.
>
>  I have been very upfront about my intention to make the Newsgroup 
>accessible.  I have made public postings to the SEHVAC just to make sure 
>that everyone understood exactly what I wanted to do.  Until today I had 
>only "heard" positive responses.  
>
>If anyone in this group is vehemently against their postings being 
>published then I will be delighted to make sure they never are.  You will 
>need to send a message directly to me so that I can print it out and keep 
>it in a file.
>
>I must say that the emotions behind this posting are rather surprising.  
>I don't believe I have ever been called "unconscionable" before.
>
>Victoria
>
>
Hi Victoria.  I don't believe I have been called "unconscionable" before 
either, they must have missed that one, though "unconscious" came up a couple 
of times.  I for one would not like to have my posts published but I do 
understand what you are trying to do and am sure many here, expecially 
contractors, would have no problem with you publishing their advice ( of 
course you (not the author) would have to accept the liability for any posts 
quoted out of context that lead to unwelcome results).  You should, however, 
check out the legalities of publishing such posts, as I have read in several 
publications and BBS notices that to do so is a copyrite infingement.  I may 
be wrong on this (was once last year also - bad year) but I think not.  
Besides, having the advice only available here will encourage others to get 
out of their hair net and join the internet.

Regards
Doug


Regards
Doug
>
>


From danel@gramercy.ios.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:21 EDT 1995
Article: 2882 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Dave Nelsen <danel@gramercy.ios.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 7 Oct 1995 03:39:22 GMT
Organization: National Assocation Of Oil Heating Service Managers
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Message-ID: <454spa$8v3@news.ios.com>
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To: whelan@stsci.edu

I have done three heat pump to oil conversions for my company. To date we 
have nothing but praise from the homeowners. On Long Island we have the 
highest electric rates in the country so the pay back is about 2 years. 
contact a good full service oil company for an estimate as they will give 
you a good price (they want you as a coustomer). also conntact PMAA 
at703-351-8000 and ask how to contact OMA whick is the Oil Heat 
Manufactures Assocation. They can help you with equipment selection. Send 
me an E-mail if I can be of any futher help. Dave 



From dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:25 EDT 1995
Article: 2883 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Doug Geddes <dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com>
Organization: CRS Online's Frontier
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Message-ID: <071095.0234534193.n@frontier.canrem.com>
Date: 07 Oct 1995 02:34:53 GMT
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Lines: 26

>I've gotten two quotes for a heat pump system for a new 2200 ft2 ranch 
>house (ducts run in a crawlspace). Both have bid some kind of insulated, 
>foil-covered board for the ducts (by Certainteed). Wouldn't steel ducts 
>with insulation on the outside be better? The house is in an area where 
>animals may be a problem. 
>
>I guess I could see where the insulated board would be quieter than steel 
>ducts, but I also wonder how they would hold up over the years. I'm 
>considering a humidifier, and would that keep them too damp?
>
>Thanks for the help!
>
>-Mark Slone        slone@traveller.com
>
>
Hi Mark, good question.  I believe you cannot beat good old fashioned 
insulated metal ducts.  They don't fall apart and are vermin proof.  Having 
said that, we in Canada have never been stupid enough to put our ducts outside 
the building envelope - of course we all have basements which makes that a lot 
easier.  Grin.  There are a thousand good scientific reasons that all ductwork 
should be inside the house air/vapour barrier, but that is another issue.  If 
you must go outside and animals could be a problem, stick to metal, either 
rectangular or round ducts that are secured with sheet metal screws.

Regards from sunny Canada (never said warm, just sunny)
Doug


From tmethod@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:28 EDT 1995
Article: 2884 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 7 Oct 1995 10:17:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 46
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In article <455omv$rqk_001@grail1204.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul
milligan) writes:

>
>In article <454u97$36d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>   tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) wrote:
>
>~~>>now, anyway :~)  ), such that actual control to the HGBV is at a span
of
>~~>>0 - 30 ( over the minimum set).
>~~>
>~~>If this is the case then how could the HGBV have leaked air into the
>~~>system with a minimum setting of 68# spring pressure?
>~~>
>
>	Previous set-up, as I inherited it, was resulting in the system
>running at 80 - 110 # pneumatic, which is probably what broke the
>diaphragm in the HGBV.
>
>

Duh...I think I'm beginning to get the picture. The HGBV was subjected to
an unregulated air supply (80-110#). A call for bypass resulted in the
HGBV being driven to it's full open position and then some, thus exceeding
the maximum operating pressure of the device. BTW, what is the max
pressure of the HGBV? Do you plan on installing a regulator in it's air
supply or are you counting on the multiplier to protect it (a very risky
proposition, IMHO)? 

Will 85# evaporator pressure be enough to achieve the desired result? Not
being an engineer, and given the complexity of this system, the variables
would seem overwhelming. My unscientific approach would be to subject the
HGBV to something slightly less than its max pressure rating as a starting
point, and then gradually reduce it from there. Perhaps the engineers out
there have a better way.

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From pjm@nando.net Wed Oct 11 00:16:30 EDT 1995
Article: 2885 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!parsifal.nando.net!grail1204
From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 7 Oct 1995 11:32:50 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <455omv$rqk_001@grail1204.nando.net>
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In article <454u97$36d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
   tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) wrote:

~~>>now, anyway :~)  ), such that actual control to the HGBV is at a span of
~~>>0 - 30 ( over the minimum set).
~~>
~~>If this is the case then how could the HGBV have leaked air into the
~~>system with a minimum setting of 68# spring pressure?
~~>

	Previous set-up, as I inherited it, was resulting in the system
running at 80 - 110 # pneumatic, which is probably what broke the
diaphragm in the HGBV.

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :~)
_________________________________________________________

http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/ is the home page of
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac


From mkklein@cinti.net Wed Oct 11 00:16:32 EDT 1995
Article: 2886 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mkklein@cinti.net (Matthew Klein)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 10:28:13 GMT
Organization: Indoor Air Quality Solutions
Lines: 53
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99b.112

On 07 Oct 1995 02:34:53 GMT, Doug Geddes 

>I've gotten two quotes for a heat pump system for a new 2200 ft2 ranch 
>house (ducts run in a crawlspace). Both have bid some kind of insulated, 
>foil-covered board for the ducts (by Certainteed). Wouldn't steel ducts 
>with insulation on the outside be better? The house is in an area where 
>animals may be a problem. 
>>
>I guess I could see where the insulated board would be quieter than steel 
>ducts, but I also wonder how they would hold up over the years. I'm 
>considering a humidifier, and would that keep them too damp?

Ductboards, or fibrous glass ducts as they are properly called, are
gaining in popularity because a contractor can fabricate the ducts
on-site very easily, and they are cheaper than insulation-lined metal
ones.  The problems that I heard about these ducts so far is that
contractors are not installing them with adequate support and the
taped seam on some opens up.  I am not totally sold on them yet
because they are relatively new and not enough time-tested data exists
yet.

Humidity is more a problem in the cooling season than in the winter
when you would be humidifying.  During the cooling season, the
humidity of the air coming from the coil could be 100%.  The jury is
still out about whether this is conducive to mold growth inside the
ducts.  However, if you have an efficient filter system on the
furnace, you should not get the dust in the duct to serve as the mold
source and food.  Usually, humidifiers are mounted on the return duct
and should not be a problem unless you have a strange setup or the
humidifier messes up and allows water to saturate the ductboard liner.
In this case, I would be more concerned about the ductboard falling
apart.

A good way to judge how well the contractor knows how to use the
ductboard is to ask it if it has heard of the North American
Insulation Manufacturer's Society (NAIMA).  This trade society has
produced a standard, "Fibrous Glass Duct Construction Standard", that
details how the ducts are to be constructed and installed.  Make sure
that the contractor follows the standard.

Otherwise, I must agree with Doug that if the ductwork is outside of
the house in a crawl space, I would feel a lot better about it being
metal.  Who knows what kind of creatures will find habitat in that
area.  I had touble with rats getting into metal return ducts in the
crawlspace of an old house I once owned.  God only knows what the
little darlins would have done with fiberboard.
Matthew Klein, PE
Indoor Air Quality Solutions
513-734-7526
mkklein@cinti.net
*************************
Wouldn't it be nice if common sense was really common?



From LewHarriman@MasonGrant.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:34 EDT 1995
Article: 2888 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!service-2.bluefin.net!usenet
From: Lew Harriman <LewHarriman@MasonGrant.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Desiccant sites
Date: 7 Oct 1995 21:51:44 GMT
Organization: Mason-Grant
Lines: 43
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References: <450mmh$q7p@news.dgsys.com>
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To: dom@dgsys.com
X-URL: news:450mmh$q7p@news.dgsys.com

Dom,

Here's a sample list of desiccant sites, based on a very cursory search:

http://www.tiac.net/users/judge/
Jim Judge, a Professional Engineer who has specialized
in designing desiccant systems for both manufacturers and end users.
His home page has good basic information about desiccant systems.


http://www.engr.wisc.edu/centers/sel/sel.html
John Mitchell and Sandy Klein at the Wisconsin Solar Energy
Research Center have been active in desiccant research over the last
20 years.

http://www.engr.wisc.edu/~jekel/homepage.html
Todd Jekel has participated in desiccant research at Wisconsin.

http://mercury.ethz.ch/dominik_business.html
A research site in Zurich, Switzerland, which has been active in
desicant formulation research for various chemical enginering 
applications.

http://www.munters.com/users/cargo
Munters Cargocaire, one of the largest manufacturers of desiccant
dehumidification units and systems.

http://www.smartpages.com/bryair/index.html 
Bry-Air, another major manufacturer of desiccant equipment.

http://www.agcc.org/docs/gcpi.html
The American Gas Cooling Center, which promotes the use
of gas cooling equipment and maintains information resources about
desiccant systems, absorption chillers and engine-driven cooling 
equipment.


Hope this is useful,

Lew Harriman
Mason-Grant




From simon@simonw.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 11 00:16:36 EDT 1995
Article: 2890 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Simon White <simon@simonw.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ASHRAE Fitting Database
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 95 11:06:51 GMT
Organization: Welton
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References: <457fs3$7fu@nic.umass.edu>
Reply-To: simon@simonw.demon.co.uk
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In article <457fs3$7fu@nic.umass.edu>
           wilmarth@math.umass.edu "Steve Wilmarth" writes:

> In the article 'Duct Design Fundamentals' in the April ASHRAE
> journal, the author refers to the 'ASHRAE Duct Fitting Design 
> Database'.  Does anyone know if this is available on line? If
> not, have the phone number to order it from ASHRAE?  Does it
> cost anything?  Thanks for any help!

Try a telnet to <bbs.ashrae.com>. I've just tried but couldn't manage to
get past the second screen.  On this side of the pond we are having big
connectivity problems on the Net - I keep reading things about Sprintlink
and routers.
-- 
Simon White                                       Aequam memento rebus in
simon@simonw.demon.co.uk                            arduis servare mentem


From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Wed Oct 11 00:16:38 EDT 1995
Article: 2891 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in1.uu.net!prodigy.com!usenet
From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 8 Oct 1995 00:33:33 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
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>How efficient are the oil burners?
>Is the water radiator heat reliable with not to many problems?
>Are the power vents very reliable?
>Do the power vents cause the siding of the house to be covered with soot.

>How much would we reduce the electric/heating bill by switching to oil?
>What is the expected life of the oil furnace.
>How reliable are the oil furnaces and how often do they need matenance?

Oil furnaces & boilers are at least 80% in ANNUAL efficiency now days. 
Many up to 85%. This is not combustion efficiency but real life rating.

What are you looking at? A boiler to heat water or a furnace to heat air? 
Using a boiler is lots more expensive to put in but can heat domestic hot 
water, heat air using a coil in the supply air, and heat water for a 
baseboard radiator in the family room.

Power vents are reliable but can be a bit noisy. Question 4, if not 
burning perfectly, can have some soot out the vent. Leads us to Question 
7: oil burners need GOOD annual maintenance to keep them burning cleanly 
and not soot up the heat exchanger & flue passages.

Post your electric rate in kwh and your oil cost per gallon and we could 
better answer question 5.

Life? A boiler could last 40+ years before splitting open although by 
then will be less efficient due to crud buildup. Typical forced air 
furnace can run 20-30 years depending upon brand. A super well built 
furnace, like a ThermoPride, will outlast a generic oil furnace, like a 
Ducane - sold under names like Carrier, Trane, York, etc. 

>From  what I read in oil heating trade magazines, common installation in 
the NE is using an oil boiler heating water. That circulates in a 
separate tank to heat your home water. You can keep the existing blower 
for the heat pump and add a hot water coil AFTER the built in heating 
coil. That way the heat pump can be assisted by the oil. At what point 
the heat pump shuts off is based on heat loss of the house and economic 
differences in the fuels. A GOOD (scarce) dealer can compute this for you.
 Doubt that it will be done but should be! The family room can have its 
own thermostat for the baseboard so you only have to heat it when using 
it. This is the most expensive way to do it but most comfortable & saves 
the most $$ in heating costs. 



From zaphod@madnix.uucp Wed Oct 11 00:16:40 EDT 1995
Article: 2892 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: zaphod@madnix.uucp (Ron Bean)
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organi[sz]ation
Message-ID: <1995Oct8.002213.32055@madnix.uucp>
References: <1995Aug9.231727.2779@madnix.uucp> <44nm5n$2l3@empire.texas.net> <1995Oct4.002916.50@madnix.uucp> <44tplc$eje@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:22:13 GMT
Lines: 28

ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:

>A company called Cryogel
>makes something called an "iceball", a baseball sized ball of
>sturdy plastic filled with water and a small air pocket.  You
>fill a tank with iceballs for thermal storage.

   Do you fill these on-site, or are they sealed at the factory?
If the latter, that would imply some non-trivial shipping costs.
If they are pre-filled, are you sure it's water inside?

   Also, is the ball shape for strength, or so you can dump them
in a pile and still circulate air through them (as opposed to
putting them in racks or on shelves or whatever)? Or am I missing
something here?

   BTW, speaking of things that leak...
I have a couple of those blue plastic ice things that you freeze
and use to cool ice chests, that leaked after a couple of years
(actually, the seal came un-sealed). On the other hand, my
parents have a couple that are in metal cans that must be at
least 20 years old and don't leak. So maybe metal is better than
plastic after all?

==================
madnix!zaphod@nicmad.nicolet.com (Ron Bean)
uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Wed Oct 11 00:16:43 EDT 1995
Article: 2893 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: 8 Oct 1995 06:40:32 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Ron Bean <zaphod@madnix.uucp> wrote:
>ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
 
>>A company called Cryogel makes something called an "iceball"... 

>... is the ball shape for strength, or so you can dump them
>in a pile and still circulate air through them...

They usually sit in an anti-freeze solution...

On another subject:

Article: 40706 of sci.energy
From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.physics,sci.energy,sci.engr.mech,alt.energy.renewable,
            alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal
Subject: Re: Solar Energy
Date: 8 Oct 1995 06:06:21 -0400
Organization: Villanova University

Gary Coffman <gary@ke4zv.atl.ga.us> wrote:

>Putting that in perspective, you're talking about 594,000 BTU, about
>the amount of heat my furnace puts out in two hours. What do you suggest
>for the other 2158 hours I need heat each season?

I've tried to explain this at least twice before, but for some reason,
few people around here seem to listen, perhaps because everyone is shouting.
Sci.energy people seem to be very energetic, hopping up and down all the time.

Perhaps we can all pause and relax for a moment, and become perfectly calm.
Let us put aside our own thoughts for a moment, and allow the waters of our
minds to become less rippled, to become perfectly smooth reflecting pools,
perfect mirrors, perfectly still waters in which we can clearly and calmly
see the reflected reality of the world around us, just listening...

1. A 16' solar closet containing a 15' cube of 130 F hot water, say,
and 6" of insulation, stores a useful heat for space heating purposes
of about 15 ft^3 x 62 lb/ft^3 x (130F-80F) = 10 million Btu, not a
half-million, as stated above, and 

2. In the house heating system I have in mind, this heat battery would
only be used to heat the house when the sun is not shining. On an average
winter day, the solar closet just keeps itself warm. It does not supply
any heat to the house, except by leakage. On an average day in the winter,
with some sun, the house is heated by an inexpensive, low-thermal-mass
sunspace, that collects about 800 Btu/ft^2 of glazing/day, where I live.

If you tell me how much oil you use over a season, I can tell you how
big a sunspace you need. If you use, say, 1000 gallons of oil a year,
and the heating season is 200 days, you need 5 gallons of oil a day,
on the average, ie you need a sunspace glazing area of about 

5 gallons x 100,000 Btu/gallon/800 Btu/ft^2/day = 625 ft^2

of south-facing sunspace area, which is a pretty big sunspace, eg
about 40' long x 16' high. But then, that's a pretty big heat load...

You can buy the components for such a sunspace from a commercial greenhouse
supplier for less than $1,000... The components for a 3,000 ft^2 commercial
greenhouse (30' wide x 100' long) cost about $3,000, and three people can
put one up in one day, starting from scratch, with no foundation. These
components would make 4 2-story lean-to sunspaces for conventional houses,
each 50 feet long, ie 4 sunspaces 8' wide x 50' long x 16' high, each having
800 ft^2 of glazed area. About a dollar per square foot of glazing. 

>>May I make one suggestion???
>>
>>INSULATE that building NOW!!!!!!!!

Good suggestion. Plug up some of the air leaks, etc. 

Solar closets and sunspaces get to be very large on a house with average
or worse levels of insulation and air infiltration...
Here's a more reasonable application:

I have J. D. Ned Nisson and Gautam Dutt's 1985 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.,
_Superinsulated Home Book_ in front of me, and on page 57-58 they
calculate the total house heat loss coefficient for a 40' x 50'
rectangular house with 8' ceilings and no basement. The walls of
their house are R30, the ceiling is R60. The total window area is 12%
of the floor area and the windows have an R-value of 2.8. Two R10 doors
have an area of 42 ft^2. Infiltration is 0.05 ACH (extremely tight),
and a ventilation system with an air-air heat exchanger supplies an
additional 0.45 ACH with 70% heat recovery. This all comes out to
230 Btu/F or 67 watts/F. They suggest that 2,500 Btu/hour (about 700
watts) is a good estimate for intrinsic heat, ie internal heat generation.

If it is 70F inside and 30F outside, Nisson/Dutt's house would use
(230 Btu/F x (70-30) - 2500 Btu/hr) x 24 = 160 K Btu/day, with no sun. 

On pages 59-60, Nisson and Dutt calculate that their example house will gain
another 100K Btu/day of solar heat through the windows on an average day
in January in New York City. This reduces the average net heat load of the
house to 60K Btu/average winter day, with some sun. Gary's furnace would
have to run 13 minutes a day to heat this house on an average January day.

Bear in mind that this is a _superinsulated_ house, by 1985 standards.
Some people (eg William Shurcliff) say that once you have a superinsulated
house, you might as well forget about spending any more money on solar
heating, because the yearly fuel bill is so low. But it's nice to use
zero fossil fuel, and superinsulation does not heat water.

>You're not paying attention.

There's a lot of that going around :-)

>My furnace is rated at 275,000 BTU/hr.
>Of course it doesn't run all the time.

How often does it run? How much oil a year do you actually use?

>All I'm noting is that the seemingly monster 594,000 BTU of storage 

If this is the 16' monster cube, it holds 10,530,000 Btu, not 594,000.

>is really chicken feed, replaceable by 2 hours running time on my furnace.

Or 38 hours of your furnace running full blast, with the 16' monster.
Over a hundred gallons of oil. Was the 594K Btu the 8'monster?
Perhaps your house needs a bigger monster.

>I have need of 2160 heating hours a year in this climate, which is modest
>compared to the North.

Agreed... Now how much oil do you use in a season?
Tell me that, and we can size your sunspace.

>Now the furnace is a demand system, and only runs
>when the house temperature drops, but it certainly runs more than
>2 hours a day total, so the little water closet is insufficient.

Perhaps you need a bigger WC, when the sun is not shining.
But the closet size has little to do with the size of the sunspace.

>That's particularly true when you realize that it is starting at
>a small delta T

I figure the closet water starts out at a steady-state temperature of 130 F,
after a string of average days, with some sun, and the house air is 70 F,
ie the delta T is 60 F to start with.

>and that delta is declining as heat is extracted, making the heat
>extraction slower and slower so that you really can't get all that
>heat back into room air in a reasonable on demand fashion.

In the useful stored heat calc above, I figured the final closet temp
as 80 F, ie a final delta T of 10 F. Now suppose the hot water is stored
in 245 sealed $5 55 gallon drums, each having a surface area of 25 ft^2,
and suppose the slowly moving air in the closet makes an R-value at the
drum surface of 2/3 ft^2-Btu/F. Then with a 10 F delta T and a large
airflow volume, the heat transfer rate will be

(80F-70F) x 245 drums x 25 ft^2/drum /R=0.666 = 92K Btu/hour,

so at the end of its discharge life, this closet could supply in one hour,
roughly the same amount of heat that Nisson and Dutt's house used in a
whole day, but at the end of its discharge life, it can only supply heat
at 1/3 the rate of a 275K Btu/hour furnace... 

Not a high enough rate? OK, suppose we use 2 liter soda bottles instead
of 55 gallon drums. These have an area of about 1 ft^2/bottle, and a 16'
monster cube closet would contain about 50,000 of them, costing 10 cents
each, if new, stacked up in the hard plastic boxes that cost $2 each,
the ones you see stacked in the aisles of supermarkets. This monster would
be a more efficient solar collector, and at the end of its discharge
life, it would have a heat transfer rate of about

(80F-70F) x 50,000 bottles x 1 ft^2/bottle/R=0.666 = 750K Btu/hour,

ie it could crank out heat at 3 times the rate of the 275K Btu/hour furnace,
at the end of its discharge life. If we say that the end of the closet's
discharge life occurs at 100 F, it could replace 9 of those furnaces, in
terms of heat transfer rate. If we made the closet air velocity 10 mph,
(ie 880 fpm) and the bottles had a rough surface, the R value would decrease
to 1/(2+v/2), ie 1/7, and at 100F, we could replace 42 of those furnaces.
(We should also check how much airflow volume is needed for heat transfer.)

>Now a *large* thermal mass would do better, of course...

Hmmm, *large*... There's a lot of empty space in the middle of that new
administration center in Paris... :-) A solar closet L' on a side takes
about L^2 days to cool to 70 F, with no sun and no other heat load, in
32 F air. A hundred foot cube would take about 10,000 days to cool, ie
27 years with no sun, at 32 F. A mini ice-age. It seems to me that the
critical thing is the heat transfer rate, not the amount of thermal mass,
since the closet only supplies heat to the house when the sun is NOT shining.
In sunny times, the sunspace heats the house. 

>but even it won't supply *days* of even heat as was claimed for
>the little water closet.

Are we talking little monsters or big monsters now? It is not hard to
calculate how many days of heat a given closet can supply, if you know
the thermal characteristics of the house, or your yearly heating bill. 

Nick



From wilmarth@math.umass.edu Wed Oct 11 00:16:45 EDT 1995
Article: 2894 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Steve Wilmarth <wilmarth@math.umass.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: ASHRAE Fitting Database
Date: 8 Oct 1995 03:17:23 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
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Hi-

In the article 'Duct Design Fundamentals' in the April ASHRAE
journal, the author refers to the 'ASHRAE Duct Fitting Design 
Database'.  Does anyone know if this is available on line? If
not, have the phone number to order it from ASHRAE?  Does it
cost anything?  Thanks for any help!

Steve Wilmarth



From aschoen@mo.net Wed Oct 11 00:16:48 EDT 1995
Article: 2895 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!News.MO.NET!usenet
From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Now, how do I tune it ? ( was Re: Freon Breakdown )
Date: 8 Oct 1995 14:58:25 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <458ouh$8eu@Twain.MO.NET>
References: <4547g9$oso_001@grail719.nando.net> <454u97$36d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <455omv$rqk_001@grail1204.nando.net>
Reply-To: aschoen@mo.net (Andy Schoen)
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In <455omv$rqk_001@grail1204.nando.net>, pjm@nando.net (paul milligan) writes:
>In article <454u97$36d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>   tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) wrote:
>
>~~>>now, anyway :~)  ), such that actual control to the HGBV is at a span of
>~~>>0 - 30 ( over the minimum set).
>~~>
>~~>If this is the case then how could the HGBV have leaked air into the
>~~>system with a minimum setting of 68# spring pressure?
>~~>
>
>	Previous set-up, as I inherited it, was resulting in the system
>running at 80 - 110 # pneumatic, which is probably what broke the
>diaphragm in the HGBV.

Paul, an 80 - 110 psig pneumatic would not normally harm the diaphragm
of your HGBV.  In fact, 200 psig shouldn't be much of a problem.

If the pneumatic signal is cycling the valve open and closed frequently,
that's another story.  The signal would then be, in effect, life
cycling the valve.

I suspect moisture in the air being used is causing rust to form in
the valve above the diaphragm, and the rust is causing the diaphragm
to fail.

Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From aschoen@mo.net Wed Oct 11 00:16:50 EDT 1995
Article: 2896 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!News.MO.NET!usenet
From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solenoid Shutoff Valve
Date: 8 Oct 1995 02:01:33 GMT
Organization: -=MO.NET=- P-Net, Inc's Missouri Operations
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <457bdt$b2k@Twain.MO.NET>
References: <44n9oe$t6q@inews.sc.intel.com>
Reply-To: aschoen@mo.net (Andy Schoen)
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X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2

In <44n9oe$t6q@inews.sc.intel.com>, ttung@td2cad.intel.com (Thye-Lai Tung) writes:
>I am looking for a solenoid shutoff valve for natural gas. ASCO makes a few
>valves that is close to my needs, but a rep. from the local office says
>that it has to be aluminium body, and they don't make it anymore (with DC
>coil). Why aluminium ? Who else make similar products ? It is for home
>use, and so the price has to be reasonable.
>

Problem is the solenoid valve has to have an explosion proof rating
when used with natural gas.  Not many solenoid valve manufacturers
bother with this area of this market--it's small, and liability
concerns are much greater.  ASCO, to my knowledge, has been the
only significant solenoid valve manufacturer who has supplied
valves for this type of application.


Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From simon@simonw.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 11 00:16:57 EDT 1995
Article: 2897 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!simonw.demon.co.uk
From: Simon White <simon@simonw.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 95 10:36:20 GMT
Organization: Welton
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <813148580snz@simonw.demon.co.uk>
References: <1995oct6.114149.1@stosc> <45768t$nsm@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
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In article <45768t$nsm@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
           BKBY81A@prodigy.com "John Mills" writes:
[snip] 
> Oil furnaces & boilers are at least 80% in ANNUAL efficiency now days. 
> Many up to 85%. This is not combustion efficiency but real life rating.
[snip]

Such high efficiencies surprise me a little. The CIBSE Guide (table B18.15)
gives the seasonal efficiency of an intermittently operated, automatic
centrally fired radiator or convector system as 63%. A similar warm air
ventilation system is given a seasonal efficiency of 60%.

This Guide was published in 1986 - have there been any significant advances
in oil furnace/boiler technology since then?
-- 
Simon White                                       Aequam memento rebus in
simon@simonw.demon.co.uk                            arduis servare mentem


From jbeucler@osf1.gmu.edu Wed Oct 11 00:16:59 EDT 1995
Article: 2898 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jbeucler@osf1.gmu.edu (JANET G. BEUCLER)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Cost per# of r11
Date: 5 Oct 1995 16:01:34 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
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Does anyone want to venture how this incremental cost will change over 
the next ten years?


From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:01 EDT 1995
Article: 2899 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solenoid Shutoff Valve
Date: 8 Oct 1995 12:26:53 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
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In article <457bdt$b2k@Twain.MO.NET> aschoen@mo.net (Andy Schoen) writes:
 >In <44n9oe$t6q@inews.sc.intel.com>, ttung@td2cad.intel.com (Thye-Lai Tung) writes:
 >>I am looking for a solenoid shutoff valve for natural gas. ASCO makes a few
 >>valves that is close to my needs, but a rep. from the local office says
 >>that it has to be aluminium body, and they don't make it anymore (with DC
 >>coil). Why aluminium ? Who else make similar products ? It is for home
 >>use, and so the price has to be reasonable.
 >>
 >
 >Problem is the solenoid valve has to have an explosion proof rating
 >when used with natural gas.  Not many solenoid valve manufacturers
 >bother with this area of this market--it's small, and liability

What is done to a solenoid to make it "explosion proof".. they
have no arcing contacts?
--ghg


From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:04 EDT 1995
Article: 2900 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: 8 Oct 1995 12:37:29 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <458gm9$kan@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
References: <1995Oct4.002916.50@madnix.uucp> <44tplc$eje@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <1995Oct8.002213.32055@madnix.uucp>
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In article <1995Oct8.002213.32055@madnix.uucp> zaphod@madnix.uucp (Ron Bean) writes:
>ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>
 >>A company called Cryogel
 >>makes something called an "iceball", a baseball sized ball of
 >>sturdy plastic filled with water and a small air pocket.  You
 >>fill a tank with iceballs for thermal storage.
 >
 >   Do you fill these on-site, or are they sealed at the factory?
 >If the latter, that would imply some non-trivial shipping costs.
 >If they are pre-filled, are you sure it's water inside?

sealed at the factory.  It is water.. You may be able to special
order other fluids or water/glycols.. not sure.
 >
 >   Also, is the ball shape for strength, or so you can dump them
 >in a pile and still circulate air through them (as opposed to
 >putting them in racks or on shelves or whatever)? Or am I missing
 >something here?

It is ball shaped, with many flat "faces" on it.. Thick sturdy plastic.
You just dump 'em in a tank or pile and circulate your working fluid
(brine,  air, etc, thru the pile).  IT is designed for thermal
"cold" storage, not heat  storage.. sold by the "ton" (of refrigeration
effect).

If you just use a chiller to freeze water in a tank, then the
coils ice up first, impeding heat transfer from the rest of the
water.. With iceballs, you cool a working fluid, such is glycol/water,
and pump that thru the iceball tank.. and have no such problem as
the  coil freezing first, insulating it.  The glycol can remove
heat evenly throught the whole tank of iceballs..
 
 >
 >   BTW, speaking of things that leak...
 >I have a couple of those blue plastic ice things that you freeze
 >and use to cool ice chests, that leaked after a couple of years
 >(actually, the seal came un-sealed). On the other hand, my
 >parents have a couple that are in metal cans that must be at
 >least 20 years old and don't leak. So maybe metal is better than
 >plastic after all?
 >
 Those have real thin plastic.. iceballs are much sturdier.
 >madnix!zaphod@nicmad.nicolet.com (Ron Bean)
 >uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!zaphod
 >
--ghg
http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu
http://worldserver.com/R-406A



From jope@grel.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:07 EDT 1995
Article: 2901 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jope@grel.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Anti Short Cycle Timer
Date: 8 Oct 1995 18:23:55 GMT
Organization: Access One
Lines: 29
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>   afn03528@freenet.ufl.edu (Ken Robinson) writes:
>  Arnold Holderness (arn@melbpc.org.au) wrote:
>  : The 24v control circuit of  a small ac unit has an electronic anti
>  : short cycle timer in the supply line to the sealed compressor unit and
>  : it has failed. It is also called a lock out timer.
>  : I wish to replace it and cannot find an equivalent spare part but
>  : could make up a suitable unit myself , but do not know the
>  : specification of such a unit or a simplified version of it for example
>  : using a 555 electronic timer component as the basis.
>  : Would a 30 second repeating timer be satisfactory .
>  
>  : Thanks  Arnold
>  
>  Short cycle timers are available from most HVAC/R supply houses for less 
>  than $20.00. 
>  Tempaco is one supplier.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>>>>
Do you know the original part number for the failed timer? If info is available,
please let us know! We might be able to assist you in finding an exact replacement!

Joseph Placz, Publisher
XREF "HVAC" Encyclopedia
XREF@DAKA.COM
(360) 385-4279



From wpb5@psu.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:10 EDT 1995
Article: 2903 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 20:03:36 GMT
Organization: CAC
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References: <1995Oct4.002916.50@madnix.uucp> <44tplc$eje@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <1995Oct8.002213.32055@madnix.uucp> <458gm9$kan@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
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George Goble wrote:

>In article <1995Oct8.002213.32055@madnix.uucp> zaphod@madnix.uucp (Ron Bean) 
writes:>>ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) writes:
>>
> >>A company called Cryogel
> >>makes something called an "iceball", a baseball sized ball of
> >>sturdy plastic filled with water and a small air pocket.  You
> >>fill a tank with iceballs for thermal storage.

...


>If you just use a chiller to freeze water in a tank, then the
>coils ice up first, impeding heat transfer from the rest of the
>water.. With iceballs, you cool a working fluid, such is glycol/water,
>and pump that thru the iceball tank.. and have no such problem as
>the  coil freezing first, insulating it.  The glycol can remove
>heat evenly throught the whole tank of iceballs..

Of course, the ice balls are freezing from the outside in, which also reduces 
the heat transfer coefficient.  As the charge cycle proceeds, the leaving 
temperature from the tank falls, indicating that this is the case.  Toward the 
end of the cycle, chiller loading (and with it, efficiency) drops off 
precipitously because there is no delta T across the evaporator.

Bill

--
William P. Bahnfleth
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State University-University Park
wpb5@psu.edu


From slyhorse@crl.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:12 EDT 1995
Article: 2904 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: slyhorse@crl.com (Noel Susskind)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ASHRAE Fitting Database
Date: 8 Oct 1995 13:42:30 -0700
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access	(415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]
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Steve Wilmarth (wilmarth@math.umass.edu) wrote:
: Hi-

: In the article 'Duct Design Fundamentals' in the April ASHRAE
: journal, the author refers to the 'ASHRAE Duct Fitting Design 
: Database'.  Does anyone know if this is available on line? If
: not, have the phone number to order it from ASHRAE?  Does it
: cost anything?  Thanks for any help!
 
A few years ago I tried to get this from them and they referred me to 
SMACNA.  If ASHRAE does not help, try the latter.  
-- 
<><><><><><><><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><><><><><><><><><
See my web page <http://www.crl.com/~slyhorse>
<><><><><><><><><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<><><><><<<<<<><>


From r80@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:15 EDT 1995
Article: 2905 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: r80@aol.com (R80)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Cost per# of r11
Date: 9 Oct 1995 04:06:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Ever hear of liquid gold?   Its called R11,12,500,502!


From Allenbaugh@Muscanet.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:16 EDT 1995
Article: 2906 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Mike Allenbaugh <Allenbaugh@Muscanet.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Solenoid Shutoff Valve
Date: 9 Oct 1995 03:04:21 GMT
Organization: Des Moines Internet
Lines: 8
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To: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu

ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble) wrote:
>
>What is done to a solenoid to make it "explosion proof".. they
>have no arcing contacts?
>--ghg

They raise the price five hundred percent.



From liepe@ghpc.org Wed Oct 11 00:17:17 EDT 1995
Article: 2907 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Paul Liepe <liepe@ghpc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 8 Oct 1995 23:30:00 GMT
Organization: Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium, Inc.
Lines: 47
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To: whelan@stsci.edu

Mike,

I'm not sure you've thought all the way through your problem.  Let's try 
to look at your issues and questions one at a time.

1.  Air source heat pumps are a good source of heat at all but the 
coldest of times.  They are used successfully throughout the country.  If 
you have high bills, its probably because you are using backup resistance 
heat too much of the time.  (This implies a leaky house or, more likely, 
leaky ducts.)

2.  Your "underground" room should actually be warmer because the earth 
is generally warmer than the air.  Below the first few feet, the earth 
temperature in your area is between 50 and 55 degrees.  The outside air 
gets colder, no?

3.  What a surprise that an oil dealer would suggest an oil burner to 
solve your problem!  What he's really saying by suggesting the addition 
of baseboard radiation is that there isn't enough heat getting to your 
family room.  If this is true, its not the fault of the heat pump, but 
rather the air distribution system.

4.  In my experience, more than 80 percent of the comfort problems with 
any ducted heating system is in the duct work.  The most likely 
cause of the problem is a leak in the ducts leading to that room -- which 
can actually cause your system to draw-in cold outside air.  Before you 
spend any big money, you should have the ducts checked either with a 
DuctBlaster or with a blower door test.  Your utility should be able to 
help with this.  (The blower door test can also locate leaks in your 
house which may be the cause of your high bill complaint.  Even new 
houses can be very leaky.)

5.  If the ducts are in good shape, you probably want an expert at duct 
design to look at your house.  Perhaps, the ducts to that room are 
undersized, or maybe there's no return air duct.  Again, its unlikely 
that the heat pumps that are the problem.

6.  There's nothing wrong with oil furnaces if you don't mind being 
dependent on someone to deliver the fuel.  But, if you go that way, 
please be sure to get a good carbon monoxide detector and an additional 
smoke alarm. Remember that your introducing combustion which can cause 
both fire and deadly gases.

If I can help you find good testers or contractors in your area, please 
let me know.  




From ganni@ndcee.ctc.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:18 EDT 1995
Article: 2908 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!CTCnet!ctc.com!usenet
From: "H. Hina Ganni" <ganni@ndcee.ctc.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.engr.chem,sci.engr.control,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.engr.lighting,sci.engr.manufacturing,sci.engr.mech,sci.engr.metallurgy,sci.engr.safety,sci.engr.semiconductors,sci.env,sci.mech.fluids
Subject: INFORMATION NEEDED:  Organic Finishing & Process Modeling
Date: 9 Oct 1995 12:40:54 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Technologies Corporation
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr:18936 sci.engr.chem:10404 sci.engr.control:7164 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:2908 sci.engr.lighting:2963 sci.engr.manufacturing:8103 sci.engr.mech:18955 sci.engr.metallurgy:3217 sci.engr.safety:1325 sci.engr.semiconductors:4779 sci.mech.fluids:2104

We are developing process simulation models for various applications, 
including at this time technologies in our Organic Finishing Center.  I 
would like to know what else is already out in the literature or in use 
at various sites, including industry, academia, and military 
installations.  Technologies of particular interest include: application 
of paint using electrocoating, powder coating, or liquid spray coating, 
and the pretreatment of parts (cleaning and conversion coating 
application) prior to organic finishing.

Any information on the following topics would be greatly appreciated, as 
would other related information, data, or comments.

1.  Work previously or currently in process for modeling organic 
finishing processes.  The information can include literature references, 
published reports, discussions of equations used to describe or define 
the processes, theoretical background, etc.

2.  Information on the coating efficiency associated with either the 
pretreatment or coating processes.  Problems or limitations associated 
with the various processes.  Relationships between coating thickness and 
process operating parameters.

Please send your responses directly to me at: ganni@ndcee.ctc.com as I am 
not always a regular reader of this newsgrouop.

I will compile and summarize the information and make it available upon 
request.  Sources will be acknowledged unless you request otherwise.

Thanks in advance.
Hina Ganni
Process Engineer

National Defense Center for Environmental Excellence
Concurrent Technologies Corporation
1450 Scalp Avenue
Johnstown, PA 15904

voice:  (814) 269-6422
fax:     (814) 269-2798
email:   ganni@ndcee.ctc.com





From wpb5@psu.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:20 EDT 1995
Article: 2909 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:35:54 GMT
Organization: CAC
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JAYW773 writes:

>In article <wpb5.174.307553EF@psu.edu>, wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
>writes:

>>To meet these objectives, the Lennox CTES concept is an _all_DX_ 
>>refrigerant-based design (no secondary circulating fluids) that
>integrates 

>>Ice discharging cooling."

>Are you saying that the air stream comes in direct contact with the ice? 

The ice is static and refrigerant tubing is immersed in it.  The discharge 
operating mode involves "pumping" refrigerant through the ice module and 
cooling coil, so there is no direct contact.  However, it should be possible 
to produce lower supply temperature with this system just as is the case with 
other ice storage systems.

>> As I stated previously, the problem with residential storage is that 
>>most rate structures don't include demand charges...

>What about areas where the electric utility charges residential customers
>time of day rates with the electricity being less costly at night but
>customers still having no peak demand charge.  Do you think that this type
>of thermal storage would be cost effective?

Yes, this would provide an incentive--but you'd have to run the numbers to 
determine whether it's economically feasible.  I imagine that the combination 
of a meaningful TOU differential, better ambient conditions for an air-cooled 
condenser, and less part-loading of the compressor could add up to a 
significant difference in operating cost.

Bill
--
William P. Bahnfleth
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State University-University Park
wpb5@psu.edu


From aschoen@mo.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:21 EDT 1995
Article: 2910 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: aschoen@mo.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Freon Breakdown Question
Date: 9 Oct 1995 01:02:51 GMT
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In <44pqsg$h2e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) writes:
>Now that the "little beasty" has been tamed, I'm still left with one
>question. Is this the best way to control capacity for humidity? It still
>seems to me that a pneumatically controlled EPR in combination with liquid
>injection would do a better job and would give the compressor a break. Is
>there such a thing? What would be the advantages/disadvantages?
>

Gary, IMO, you are correct.  The EPR could be either electrically or
pneumatically controlled.  Electrically controlled EPRs are fairly
common.

The advantage of using a HGBV is you would be less likely to run into
oil return problems at light load conditions.  If the unit had to
run at or near zero load conditions for extended periods of time,
a system with just an EPR and desuperheating valve may cycle
the compressor due to low suction pressure, and you have the
potential problem of oil return.


Andy Schoen
aschoen@mo.net



From jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:23 EDT 1995
Article: 2911 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net (Jim Storm)
Subject: Water condensers
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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:26:59 GMT
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 Hi all.
I am looking for facts and opinions on water cooled condensers as an 
add on to air cooled units.. I have seen them added to units to help 
them over the rough times and to help improve on design problems. My 
question is this. Given the above situation where is the best place to 
install the water coil #1 as a desuperheater or #2 as a subcooler.
I am wondering which makes the most sense money-wise and eff. wise
Thanks..       Stormy (jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net)



From jayw773@aol.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:25 EDT 1995
Article: 2912 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jayw773@aol.com (JAYW773)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: 8 Oct 1995 22:24:40 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <wpb5.174.307553EF@psu.edu>, wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
writes:

>To meet these objectives, the Lennox CTES concept is an _all_DX_ 
>refrigerant-based design (no secondary circulating fluids) that
integrates 
>with the HVAC system refrigeration circuit providing three distinct modes
of 
>operation:

>Direct cooling at system ARI rated efficiency.
>Ice making.

>Ice discharging cooling."

Are you saying that the air stream comes in direct contact with the ice? 
This system seems quite interesting.  Do you know if this type of system
actually results in a lower space humidity when in operation?  This would
be another selling point of using this type of  system.  

> As I stated previously, the problem with residential storage is that 
>most rate structures don't include demand charges.  Therefore, without
>utility 
>incentives to prop up the technology, it has no economic advantage over
less 
>expensive conventional systems

What about areas where the electric utility charges residential customers
time of day rates with the electricity being less costly at night but
customers still having no peak demand charge.  Do you think that this type
of thermal storage would be cost effective? 


JayW773@aol.com


From vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za Wed Oct 11 00:17:29 EDT 1995
Article: 2913 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Craig van der Walt <vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Humidity sensor in explosive environment
Date: 9 Oct 1995 15:34:41 GMT
Organization: Telkom SA
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Hi I am looking for a method of measuring the humidty and temperature in 
a large wine cellar.  The cellar is classified as Class 1 division 2.

I will be connecting to a PLC and require an issolated 4-20mA signal

The humidity will be in the range 40 - 80 % and the temperature in the 
range 0 - 30 degrees centigrade.  The ADC converter has a 10 bit 
resolution.

Can anybody recommend which type of sensors to use.  I would aslo like to 
know the difference bettween an issolated and non issolated sensor.  
Would it be better to use an explosion proof sensor or just place the 
sensor in a 



From vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za Wed Oct 11 00:17:31 EDT 1995
Article: 2914 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Craig van der Walt <vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Humidity sensor in explosive environment (Ignore first posting, this one should be the original).
Date: 9 Oct 1995 15:39:28 GMT
Organization: Telkom SA
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Hi sorry hit wrong key on original post.  Here is the complete question :

Hi I am looking for a method of measuring the humidty and temperature in 
a large wine cellar.  The cellar is classified as Class 1 division 2.

I will be connecting to a PLC and require an issolated 4-20mA signal

The humidity will be in the range 40 - 80 % and the temperature in the 
range 0 - 30 degrees centigrade.  The ADC converter has a 10 bit 
resolution.

Can anybody recommend which type of sensors to use.  I would aslo like to 
know the difference bettween an issolated and non issolated sensor.  
Would it be better to use an explosion proof sensor or just place the 
sensor in an intrinsiclly safe barrier.  

What type of sensor would be recomende for temperature measurement, PT100 
or thermocouple(I doubt this one will work).  Any leads would be 
appreciated.

Regards
Craig
vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za





From pknutsen@richmond.infi.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:34 EDT 1995
Article: 2915 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Peter T. Knutsen" <pknutsen@richmond.infi.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Carbon Monoxide
Date: 9 Oct 1995 18:57:09 GMT
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My wife's friend has been complaining of headaches and dizzyness that 
appeared to be related to a rusted out vent stack on a gas hot water 
heater.  This vent stack has been repaired but she still feels there is a 
gas leak somewhere.  The city gas company did repair some gas lines in 
the street on her block.  Who should she call to get this checked out.  
She has tried the gas company but they have been no help.  Is there a way 
to check her home's air quality and is this type of testing expensive.  
The house is over 40 year old and has a basement that seems to have the 
worst smell.  I advised her to get a CO monitor.  Any other advice?

Pete



From LALZ60A@prodigy.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:36 EDT 1995
Article: 2916 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: LALZ60A@prodigy.com (Victoria Kamm)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Newsgroup in The News
Date: 9 Oct 1995 19:04:45 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <45brod$gkg@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
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X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

I very much appreciate all the feedback on this topic. 

 It has become far more complicated than I ever expected.  I don't think 
I have any choice but to bow to the members of the group who have 
expressed their opposition.  I have zero interest in worrying about if I 
remembered to email everyone I quoted much less possible litigation.

People cannot get involved in something they don't know about.  Perhaps 
someone will devise a better way to get the word out (about SEHVAC) to 
the rest of our industry.

Victoria





From pknutsen@richmond.infi.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:38 EDT 1995
Article: 2917 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Peter T. Knutsen" <pknutsen@richmond.infi.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Carbon Monoxide in Home?
Date: 9 Oct 1995 18:52:21 GMT
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To: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

My wife's friend has been complaining of headaches and dizzyness that 
appeared to be related to a rusted out vent stack on a gas hot water 
heater.  This vent stack has been repaired but she still feels there is a 
gas leak somewhere.  The city gas company did repair some gas lines in 
the street on her block.  Who should she call to get this checked out.  
She has tried the gas company but they have been no help.  Is there a way 
to check her home's air quality and is this type of testing expensive.  
The house is over 40 year old and has a basement that seems to have the 
worst smell.  I advised her to get a CO monitor.  Any other advice?

Pete



From LewHarriman@MasonGrant.com Wed Oct 11 00:17:40 EDT 1995
Article: 2918 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!service-2.bluefin.net!usenet
From: Lew Harriman <LewHarriman@MasonGrant.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Humidity sensor in explosive environment (Ignore first posting, this one should be the original).
Date: 9 Oct 1995 20:08:40 GMT
Organization: Mason-Grant
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <45bvg8$pqo@service-2.bluefin.net>
References: <45bfeh$88u@grovel.iafrica.com> <45bfng$9sr@grovel.iafrica.com>
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To: vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za
X-URL: news:45bfng$9sr@grovel.iafrica.com

Craig,

You might try Hy-Cal Engineering. They make an industrial-grade 
temperature and humidity sensor/transmitter, which their literature says 
is Factory Mutual-approved for service in Class I, Division I, Groups 
B,C D and Class II, Division I, Groups E, F and G. (I'll bet it doesn't 
come cheap!)

My catalog says HY-CAL is located in El Monte, CA (818) 444-4000

Hope this helps,

Lew Harriman
Mason-Grant




From seanjg@marlowe.umd.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:43 EDT 1995
Article: 2919 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: seanjg@marlowe.umd.edu (Gallagher - Sean J.)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 9 Oct 1995 15:54:23 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
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Paul Liepe (liepe@ghpc.org) wrote:
: Mike,

...

: 2.  Your "underground" room should actually be warmer because the earth 
: is generally warmer than the air.  Below the first few feet, the earth 
: temperature in your area is between 50 and 55 degrees.  The outside air 
: gets colder, no?

There still a delta T between the 55 F slab and the 70 F room.  We have a 
similar room in our house which is a split level, and I find a big problem 
being the fact the warm air rises up to the kitchen and the cool air 
falls.  I guess split levels inherently have this problem and a slab 
floor in the family room makes it all the worse.  Our solution has been 
to keep a fire going in the wood stove in that room when it's cold.  Nothing 
like radiant heat to counteract the stratification and cold floor.  Wood is 
alot of work tho, so hydronic baseboard is a more elegant solution, altho 
expensive.

...

: 4.  In my experience, more than 80 percent of the comfort problems with 
: any ducted heating system is in the duct work.  The most likely 
: cause of the problem is a leak in the ducts leading to that room -- which 
: can actually cause your system to draw-in cold outside air.  Before you 
: spend any big money, you should have the ducts checked either with a 
: DuctBlaster or with a blower door test.  Your utility should be able to 
: help with this.  (The blower door test can also locate leaks in your 
: house which may be the cause of your high bill complaint.  Even new 
: houses can be very leaky.)

Perhaps, but if Mike has a stratification problem like me, the only way 
to use the forced air system to maintain 70 F in the family room is to 
jack up the stat (upstairs in my house) and overheat the upstairs.  Gets 
pretty wasteful.  Running the circulating fan continuously can help, but 
the room can still feel cool.  I find supplemental radiant heat for this 
room to be trick.

my $0.02

-- Sean Gallagher -- seanjg@umd5.umd.edu


From pjm@nando.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:45 EDT 1995
Article: 2920 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: pjm@nando.net (paul milligan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Humidity sensor in explosive environment (Ignore first posting, this one should be the original).
Date: 9 Oct 1995 16:06:04 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Lines: 18
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In article <45bfng$9sr@grovel.iafrica.com>,
   Craig van der Walt <vdwaltc@telkom09.telkom.co.za> wrote:

~~>Hi I am looking for a method of measuring the humidty and temperature in 
~~>a large wine cellar.  The cellar is classified as Class 1 division 2.


~~>Can anybody recommend which type of sensors to use.  

	Pneumatic  :~)

_________________________________________________________
No Disclaimer needed - This is my own PPP account, and my
employer doesn't care what I think anyway !  :~)
_________________________________________________________

http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/ is the home page of
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac


From rodynski@Direct.CA Wed Oct 11 00:17:47 EDT 1995
Article: 2921 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: rodynski@Direct.CA (Robert Odynski)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Layman question: Duct material
Date: 9 Oct 1995 16:06:14 GMT
Organization: Internet Direct Inc.
Lines: 42
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References: <44v8pu$ifg@tsunami.traveller.com>
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X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

Mark, as a contractor with over 20 years experience I would suggest:
1. Get at least 5 detailed quotes c/w references of 3 recent projects.
2. Deal with contractors who are bondable, even though you are not 
asking for a bond on your project. This is a good way to screen 
your contractors.
3. I would NOT use any fiberglass duct in your system! It is likely to 
fail in your application. Rodents and insects love it.
4. I would NOT use internal duct insulation. In a humidified system, 
it is a potential breeding ground for bacteria and other nasties. If not 
properly installed it will release glass fibers into
your air system. These fibers can cause respiratory problems.
5. Use sheet metal ducts insulated with 2" thick external foil faced 
duct wrap, 100% vapour sealed, secured with flare out staples, foil tape, 
and galvanized wire.
6. Use factory insulated wire mold flexible ducts for the last 5' of 
each diffuser run. This will cut your cost and help reduce sound 
transmission.

You should check out my advice and other advice before proceeding. Get
a few qualified opinions. Your HVAC system is important to your health 
and comfort.

Good luck,
Robert Odynski

In article <44v8pu$ifg@tsunami.traveller.com>, Mark Slone <slone@traveller.com> says:
>
>I've gotten two quotes for a heat pump system for a new 2200 ft2 ranch 
>house (ducts run in a crawlspace). Both have bid some kind of insulated, 
>foil-covered board for the ducts (by Certainteed). Wouldn't steel ducts 
>with insulation on the outside be better? The house is in an area where 
>animals may be a problem. 
>
>I guess I could see where the insulated board would be quieter than steel 
>ducts, but I also wonder how they would hold up over the years. I'm 
>considering a humidifier, and would that keep them too damp?
>
>Thanks for the help!
>
>-Mark Slone        slone@traveller.com
>
>


From PA159978@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU Wed Oct 11 00:17:49 EDT 1995
Article: 2922 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: PA159978@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Cost per# of r11
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 12:26:54 LCL
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <17432AF14.PA159978@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU>
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In article <450vgu$pp4@portal.gmu.edu>
jbeucler@osf1.gmu.edu (JANET G. BEUCLER) writes:
 
 
>Does anyone want to venture how this incremental cost will change over
>the next ten years?
 
If you get private answers please post the consensus.  I have asked the same
question and heard answers from $20.00 to $100.00 per pound.  The most
learned answer I got was in the neighborhood of $75.00 per pound.


From pknutsen@richmond.infi.net Wed Oct 11 00:17:52 EDT 1995
Article: 2923 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsjunkie.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!usenet
From: "Peter T. Knutsen" <pknutsen@richmond.infi.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Carbon Monoxide in Home?
Date: 9 Oct 1995 18:51:29 GMT
Organization: Customer of InfiNet
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NNTP-Posting-Host: h-moonglow.richmond.infi.net
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To: All

My wife's friend has been complaining of headaches and dizzyness that 
appeared to be related to a rusted out vent stack on a gas hot water 
heater.  This vent stack has been repaired but she still feels there is a 
gas leak somewhere.  The city gas company did repair some gas lines in 
the street on her block.  Who should she call to get this checked out.  
She has tried the gas company but they have been no help.  Is there a way 
to check her home's air quality and is this type of testing expensive.  
The house is over 40 year old and has a basement that seems to have the 
worst smell.  I advised her to get a CO monitor.  Any other advice?

Pete



From gpdf@acd.ucar.edu Wed Oct 11 00:17:54 EDT 1995
Article: 2924 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!felsmann.acd.ucar.edu!user
From: gpdf@acd.ucar.edu (Gregory P. Dubois-Felsmann)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Cost per# of r11
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 14:39:28 -0600
Organization: National Center for Atmospheric Research
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <gpdf-0910951439280001@felsmann.acd.ucar.edu>
References: <450vgu$pp4@portal.gmu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: felsmann.acd.ucar.edu

In article <450vgu$pp4@portal.gmu.edu>, jbeucler@osf1.gmu.edu (JANET G.
BEUCLER) wrote:
> Does anyone want to venture how this incremental cost will change over 
> the next ten years?

For the contribution from the Federal excise tax in the United States,
you can take a look at the relevant sections of the U.S. tax code 
(26 USC 4681 and 4682) on SOLIS, the stratospheric ozone Web site, at

<URL:http://www.acd.ucar.edu/gpdf/ozone/usa/26usc.38D.toc.html>

In brief, the tax level for CFC-11 will increase from its 1995 level of
$5.35/lb. at a rate of $0.45/lb. per year.

Scarcity of supply is likely to totally dominate the excise tax in the
market price of CFCs, though.

The SOLIS home page is <URL:http://www.acd.ucar.edu/gpdf/ozone/>.

-- 
Gregory P. Dubois-Felsmann <gpdf@acd.ucar.edu>
National Center for Atmospheric Research


From judge@linric.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:00 EDT 1995
Article: 2926 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Jim Judge <judge@linric.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Desiccant sites
Date: 10 Oct 1995 00:42:21 GMT
Organization: Linric Company
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <45cfhd$kn5@sundog.tiac.net>
References: <450mmh$q7p@news.dgsys.com> <456spg$jcs@service-2.bluefin.net>
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To: Lew,Harriman

A minor correction to my (Jim Judge, Linric Company ) Web site URL,
The current URL is:

         http://www.linric.com/users/judge

Please stop by and leave some comments, etc. I really need help with the "Dry Humor" part!

Thank you,

Jim Judge



From richbyrd@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:01 EDT 1995
Article: 2927 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: richbyrd@ix.netcom.com (Richard Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Carbon Monoxide in Home?
Date: 10 Oct 1995 01:05:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 44
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References: <45bqvh$cm5@allnews.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-pas12-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Oct 09  6:05:12 PM PDT 1995

>My wife's friend has been complaining of headaches and dizzyness that 
>appeared to be related to a rusted out vent stack on a gas hot water 
>heater.  This vent stack has been repaired but she still feels there
>is a gas leak somewhere.  The city gas company did repair some gas
>lines in the street on her block.  Who should she call to get this
>checked out.  She has tried the gas company but they have been no
>help.  Is there a way to check her home's air quality and is this type
>of testing expensive.  The house is over 40 year old and has a
>basement that seems to have the worst smell.  I advised her to get a
CO monitor.  Any other advice?
>
>Pete


If she is still suffering from headaches and dizziness she should

a. GET OUT OF THE HOUSE NOW.

b. Have the fire dept. come in and measure for carbon monoxide.

c. Get a blood test for COHb (chemical formed in the blood when you
inhale carbon monoxide).

You can have a deadly carbon monoxide hazard from carbon monoxide, from
other causes than a rusted out flue.  Headaches and nausea are the main
symptoms of moderately high exposure to carbon monoxide.

If there is a carbon monoxide problem, it needs to be solved.  This is
not the same as a gas leak at all.  Carbon monoxide occurs after the
gas is burned, when it burns incompletely and/or fumes leak excessively
into the occupied spaces.

What is the smell?  Carbon monoxide is odorless, though you can often
smell the other exhaust fumes that accompany it.  If it's a musty odor
it's mold, not carbon monoxide.  Mold can also cause these symptoms.

An IAQ investgation competently done probably would cost $500 to $1000,
though spending that much does not guarantee competence.

Rich Byrd
Dir. IAQ Investigations
Machado Environmental Corp.
Glendale, Calif.
{all opinions exclusively my own}


From schinbur@NMU.EDU Wed Oct 11 00:18:04 EDT 1995
Article: 2928 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Steve Chinburg <schinbur@NMU.EDU>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: connecting gauge set
Date: 9 Oct 1995 18:49:49 GMT
Organization: Northern Michigan University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <45bqse$aut@walter.acs.nmu.edu>
References: <3003@news.IPSWITCH.COM>
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To: ddl@harvard.edu

well now days that is a good question. make sure that you have sharder 
core valves both on the high and low side of the system. then you connect 
the high side and open up the gauges so the Ref. will get to the end of 
the low side and then take a screwdriver and let out a very small amount 
of hose, it ok to let out a small amount. and that then you connect the 
low side hose.

Steve Chinburg

SCHINBUR@NMU.EDU



From robert.greenspan@hboc.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:07 EDT 1995
Article: 2929 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: robert.greenspan@hboc.com (Robert Greenspan)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Oil Furnace and water heater options
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 22:15:43 GMT
Organization: HBO&Co.
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We live in western Mass. and have electric heat - an expensive combination.
We are planning on converting to oil heat and were wondering if anyone had info on
what to look for;  Is there somewhere to find independent comparisons of the different products?

So far we have information from heating companies about the Energy Kinetics System 2000
and Thermo-Dynamics LM75 boilers and the Superstor water heater, but these are marketing
brochures which somehow neglected to mention their comparitive weaknesses.

Thanks,

Robert


From judge@linric.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:09 EDT 1995
Article: 2931 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Jim Judge <judge@linric.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Desiccant sites
Date: 10 Oct 1995 00:41:50 GMT
Organization: Linric Company
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <45cfge$kn5@sundog.tiac.net>
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To: Lew,Harriman

A minor correction to my (Jim Judge, Linric Company ) Web site URL,
The current URL is:

         http://www.linric.com/users/judge

Please stop by and leave some comments, etc. I really need help with the "Dry Humor" part!

Thank you,

Jim Judge



From judge@linric.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:11 EDT 1995
Article: 2932 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Jim Judge <judge@linric.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Desiccant sites
Date: 10 Oct 1995 00:53:01 GMT
Organization: Linric Company
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <45cg5d$kn5@sundog.tiac.net>
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To: LewHarriman@MasonGrant.com

Just a correction to the URL you posted for my home page (Jim Judge, Linirc Company )
The current URL is:

                   http://www.linric.com/users/judge

I'm working to make this an informative site on the subject of desiccants, desiccant 
dehumidifiers and desiccant cooling technology. Any help that is offered will be graciously 
accepted. I especially need help with the "Dry Humor" section.

Thank you,

Jim Judge
judge@linric.com



From richbyrd@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:13 EDT 1995
Article: 2933 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: richbyrd@ix.netcom.com (Richard Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.med.occupational,sci.engr.safety,bionet.mycology,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: PCIH - Burge and Morey in San Diego yesterday
Date: 10 Oct 1995 01:17:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <45chid$6to@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-pas12-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Oct 09  6:17:01 PM PDT 1995
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.med.occupational:4250 sci.engr.safety:1331 bionet.mycology:2775 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:2933

Hello all you IAQ/IH people hiding out there - were any of you at
Sunday's talks by Philip Morey and Harriet Burge on mold, mold, and
more mold?  I heard someone there mention the Internet.  The talks were
a great treat.

Rich Byrd
Dir. IAQ Investigations 
Machado Environmental Corp.
Glendale, Calif.
{all opinions exclusively my own}


From danel@gramercy.ios.com Wed Oct 11 00:18:18 EDT 1995
Article: 2934 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Dave Nelsen <danel@gramercy.ios.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Switching to oil heat - furance advise
Date: 10 Oct 1995 00:16:13 GMT
Organization: National Assocation Of Oil Heating Service Managers
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <45ce0e$4oq@news.ios.com>
References: <1995oct6.114149.1@stosc> <45768t$nsm@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <813148580snz@simonw.demon.co.uk>
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To: simon@simon.demon.co.uk

The efficency ratings listed are A.F.U.E. annual fuel utilization eff. 
Most oil fired equipment is between 80% (minimun allowed by US GOV.) and 
87% . There are some in the 90% range but this generaly means fuel gas 
condensation combined with sulfur in the fuel which shortens the life of 
the equipment.



From mkklein@cinti.net Wed Oct 11 00:18:20 EDT 1995
Article: 2935 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mkklein@cinti.net (Matthew Klein)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Carbon Monoxide in Home?
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:46:46 GMT
Organization: Indoor Air Quality Solutions
Lines: 32
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>My wife's friend has been complaining of headaches and dizzyness that 
>appeared to be related to a rusted out vent stack on a gas hot water 
>heater.  This vent stack has been repaired but she still feels there is a 
>gas leak somewhere.  The city gas company did repair some gas lines in 
>the street on her block.  Who should she call to get this checked out.  
>She has tried the gas company but they have been no help.  Is there a way 
>to check her home's air quality and is this type of testing expensive.  
>The house is over 40 year old and has a basement that seems to have the 
>worst smell.  I advised her to get a CO monitor.  Any other advice?
>
I agree with you that she should have a CO detector.  I think any
house that has gas combustion or an attached garage should have one
(actually several) of these.  If you have a gas leak, the gas company
has a responsibility to check it out.  If they are not doing what they
should, call the local fire department.  You may also check with your
local safety supply company.  Tell them you would like detector tubes
to check out a possible gas leak and CO levels.  The only problem is
that the pumps for these are pretty expensive compared to the tubes.
However, you may be able to "borrow" a demo for a day or so.  You may
also use an artificial smoke material to check the vent areas of the
exhaust for the water heater and the furnace area if it is gas to see
if exhaust is coming out of them into the house.  Even though you
replaced the exhaust, there could be a blockage somewhere else.  Let
me know if you need more guidance.

Matthew Klein, PE
Indoor Air Quality Solutions
513-734-7526
mkklein@cinti.net
*************************
Wouldn't it be nice if common sense was really common?



From mkklein@cinti.net Wed Oct 11 00:18:22 EDT 1995
Article: 2936 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mkklein@cinti.net (Matthew Klein)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ASHRAE Fitting Database
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:27:12 GMT
Organization: Indoor Air Quality Solutions
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <45d079$rgq@gs2.cinti.net>
References: <457fs3$7fu@nic.umass.edu> <459d3m$57k@crl7.crl.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp12.cinti.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99b.112

>: In the article 'Duct Design Fundamentals' in the April ASHRAE
>: journal, the author refers to the 'ASHRAE Duct Fitting Design 
>: Database'.  Does anyone know if this is available on line? If
>: not, have the phone number to order it from ASHRAE?  Does it
>: cost anything?  Thanks for any help!
> 
>A few years ago I tried to get this from them and they referred me to 
>SMACNA.  If ASHRAE does not help, try the latter.

I don't understand why they referred you to SMACNA, even if it was
several years ago.  The Duct-Fitting Desing Database is advertised on
page 29 of the ASHRAE Fall 1995 publications catalog.  The code # is
94601.  It costs $99 for non-members and $69 for members.  You can
reach ASHRAE at 404-636-8400.  Given the price difference between
members and non-members, I would find a friend who is a member if you
aren't and buy him or her a couple of beers.

Matthew Klein, PE
Indoor Air Quality Solutions
513-734-7526
mkklein@cinti.net
*************************
Wouldn't it be nice if common sense was really common?



From 102531.2123@compuserve.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:42 EDT 1995
Article: 3072 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: <102531.2123@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: RESDNTL HVAC TUNE-UP $how me $aving$
Date: 19 Oct 1995 03:34:27 GMT
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
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Hi,

     I'm looking for hardcopy on studies showing profitability of heating and cooling 
maintenance.  i.e.  dirty blower wheel - xx% efficiency loss


From jbvb@satisfied.apocalypse.org Tue Oct 24 21:31:43 EDT 1995
Article: 3073 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jbvb@satisfied.apocalypse.org (James VanBokkelen)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Recommendations for HVAC programmable controllers?
Date: 18 Oct 1995 23:21:07 -0400
Organization: Rancho Apocalypse
Lines: 21
Distribution: na
Message-ID: <464g73$9av@asylum.apocalypse.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: asylum.sf.ca.us
Summary: Want programmable controller for solar hot water application
Keywords: programmable controller

Anybody using programmable controllers in HVAC applications?  I know
most installations use relay logic & maybe timers, but sometimes things
must get too complicated...

I am dissatisfied with current commercial solar hot water differential
controllers; to replace them I need something that can monitor 3
temperature sensors and drive at least 1 relay (3 would be better) to
control 110VAC devices.  The development system should run on an
IBM-compatible PC, and I'd rather not buy or borrow a PROM burner.  I
can cope with whatever machine language the micro uses as long as I
can get a manual.  24VAC powered would be nice, but I can cope with
110VAC or 12VDC.  Low power consumption is a plus, as is an enclosure
I can buy rather than fabricate my own.  UL listing not necessary, but
nice.  RFI emissions suitable for home use (e.g. low) another plus.
I'd pay extra for a 2-4 character 7-segment display & 1-8 membrane
keys on the front, particularly if I didn't have to write my own
drivers for them.

-- 
James B. VanBokkelen					Far Acres Farm
Address known to work: "jbvb@asylum.sf.ca.us"		South Hampton, NH


From project@nando.net Tue Oct 24 21:31:45 EDT 1995
Article: 3074 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: David Kasper <project@nando.net>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Un-Vented Gas Heaters
Date: 19 Oct 1995 04:04:57 GMT
Organization: News & Observer Public Access
Lines: 12
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I have been looking for a propane gas heater for a large 600 square 
foot room.  I was surprised to find that there are un-vented heaters 
being sold for indoor use.  I talked with a sales rep at the 
Comfort-Glo company regarding their un-vented models.  He assured 
me that carbon monoxide from the heaters is negligible, that they are 
99% efficient, and perfectly acceptable and legal for indoor use.  I 
later found out, however, that un-vented heaters are illegal to install in 
bedrooms in North Carolina, which makes me think that they are not 
completely safe.  Should they be used at all?  How safe are they?  Is 
there an inexpensive source for new or used gas heaters?




From gpdf@acd.ucar.edu Tue Oct 24 21:31:46 EDT 1995
Article: 3075 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: gpdf@acd.ucar.edu (Gregory P. Dubois-Felsmann)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,sci.environment
Subject: Freon drop-in, not 134a
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 00:14:14 -0600
Organization: National Center for Atmospheric Research
Lines: 80
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <gpdf-1910950014140001@felsmann.acd.ucar.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: felsmann.acd.ucar.edu
Keywords: ozone CFC HFC Montreal Protocol EPA SNAP
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.autos.tech:130250 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3075 sci.environment:73027

The following post appeared on sci.environment; I'm here re/cross-posting
it to rec.autos.tech and sci.engr.heat-vent-ac because of its clear
relevance to ongoing discussions on those groups.  I've included 
sci.environment in the newsgroup list, despite the fact that it will as
a result appear twice to sci.env readers, in order to keep followups on
a single (multi-group) thread.

Note that FRIGC *is* (to the best of my knowledge) acceptable for use as
a CFC-12 substitute in mobile A/C under the EPA SNAP program.

" From: Dave Pettingill <isobar@igc.apc.org>
" Newsgroups: sci.environment
" Subject: Freon drop-in, not 134a
" Message-ID: <APC&1'0'576a9915'9c4@igc.apc.org>
" Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
" Lines: 60
" 
" 
"       INTERCOOL ENERGY ANNOUNCES SUCCESSFUL FLEET TESTING OF 
" FRIGC(TM) BY U-HAUL AND RESULTS OF TINKER AIR FORCE BASE STUDY
" 
"       LATHAM, N.Y., Oct. 18 -/E-Wire/-- InterCool Energy Corporation, 
" a subsidiary of Intermagnetics General Corporation (AMEX: IMG), 
" announced today that its CFC-free Freon* replacement alternative 
" refrigerant FRIGC FR-12(TM) has been successfully tested by fleet 
" managers at U-Haul International, and that Tinker Air Force Base had 
" released the results of its study.
" 
"      Intermagnetics and its new subsidiary InterCool Energy 
" Corporation (ICE), which is dedicated to the sale and marketing of 
" FRIGC, have been assisting fleet managers in the ongoing testing of 
" the refrigerant. InterCool will now work closely with its new 
" distribution partner, Pennzoil Products Company, in accordance with 
" its recently announced master distributor agreement.
" 
"      As part of that arrangement, Pennzoil Products Company, a wholly 
" owned subsidiary of Houston-based Pennzoil Company (NYSE: PZL) and a 
" leader in the production and marketing of specialty petroleum 
" products distributed in more than 50 countries worldwide, will be 
" responsible for follow-through on these and many other opportunities 
" in all of North America.
" 
"      U-Haul International, Inc., the largest consumer truck-rental 
" operation in the world, with a fleet of over 81,000 trucks, has been 
" testing FR-12 refrigerant for several months.  This test was 
" motivated by a decision to find a cost effective, environmentally 
" responsible replacement for R-12.  Bob Dudley, Manager of Engineering 
" at U-Haul's technical center in Tempe, Arizona, indicated that he is 
" pleased with the FR-12 refrigerant results.  He stated, "Subject to 
" completion of testing, U-Haul's plans are to expand the usage of 
" FR-12 refrigerant to approximately 60% of its entire rental fleet, 
" which currently uses R-12."
" 
"      In addition, the Company announced today the results of a study 
" by Tinker Air Force Base.  In a prepared statement about the study, 
" Tom T. Walker, Chief, Pollution Prevention Division at Tinker Air 
" Force Base, stated, "FRIGC fit in perfectly with our [R-12] reduction 
" program by allowing us to further exceed our goals, with a potential 
" for complete R-12 elimination base-wide."
" 
"      Mr. Walker also said that FRIGC was the best alternative 
" refrigerant because "User report data indicates that drivers greatly 
" prefer FRIGC- supplied vehicles over 134a-retrofitted vehicles.  
" There are numerous complaints regarding warm vent temperatures of the 
" 134a vehicles, and zero FRIGC-related complaints.  The overwhelming 
" preference by the user as well as the cost reduction as compared to 
" 134a retrofits are the two reasons for choosing FRIGC as our R-12 
" replacement for vehicle air conditioning systems."
" 
"      InterCool, a recently established wholly-owned subsidiary of 
" Intermagnetics, designs, manufactures and sells refrigerants and 
" refrigerant equipment for a wide variety of applications.
" 
"      Inttics 
" General Corporation, 518-782-1122/
"      (IMG PZL)

-- 
Gregory P. Dubois-Felsmann <gpdf@acd.ucar.edu>
National Center for Atmospheric Research


From afn03528@afn.org Tue Oct 24 21:31:46 EDT 1995
Article: 3076 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: afn03528@afn.org (Ken Robinson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: IAQ Regs. worthless!
Date: 19 Oct 1995 10:15:11 GMT
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <4658ff$n23@huron.eel.ufl.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet2.afn.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

I don't have time to detail this story, but will add to it this weekend.

Orange County Florida recently began a complete rebuild of their fairly
new Courthouse. They planned to replace all air conditioning hardware,
including duct work, hoping to eliminate mold and other IAQ problems. 
During demolition mold was found inside all interior walls. To make a long
story short the building has been abandoned and will likely be demolished. 

What is it going to take to stop this waste of time and money?

I recently received a contract from the University of Florida to assist 
in a program to eliminate humidity and associated IAQ problems in several 
large dormitory units. All suffer from "value engineering" and will 
likely require large doses of money to solve.

Comments from IAQ folks and those familiar with Codes Administration 
related to this subject would be appreciated. 

afn03528@freenet.ufl.edu (Ken Robinson)




From thaddeus@encon.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:47 EDT 1995
Article: 3077 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Thaddeus Ballantine <thaddeus@encon.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Air Doors and Energy Savings
Date: 19 Oct 1995 04:25:38 GMT
Organization: ENCON - Energy Conservation Company
Lines: 32
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We have been battling with a few of our clients over the use of air door 
for retail stores with winter design temperatures in the ASHRAE 99% of 
less than 30 degrees F.  Our client, through other consultants, states 
that this saves money by reducing infiltration.

The air doors are installed typically on two sets of two 3'0" doors so 
that we end up with two 72" air doors with 72" in length and 16KW of 
electric heat.  The doors are typically 3'0" byt 8'-0"

We feel that the best solution to cold climate conditions esp. in retail 
environment is to have a vestibule.  The vestibule would provide a 
stepped temperature transition between the exterior environment of -5F 
to say 40F and the 70F in the store. We also feel that the use of an air 
door might actually entrain more air into the space than may come in from 
normally temporarily open doors due to the velocity of the air created by 
the air doors.  

Has anyone done any research on this subject?  We do not believe 
manufacturere's statements regarding energy savings.  In addition the 
sound levelsl produced by these devices are generally above NC50.  
Such volume levels start to dramatically compete with the background 
music provided in stores.

-- 
Thaddeus Steven Ballantine
ENCON-Energy Conservation Company, Inc.
4940 El Camino Real
Suite 200
Los Altos, CA 94022
thaddeus@encon.com




From Mark_FrmMgr@msn.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:48 EDT 1995
Article: 3078 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
From: Mark_FrmMgr@msn.com (Mark Cayton)
Subject: Engineering Forum on MSN
Date: 19 Oct 95 17:33:44 -0700
Message-ID: <00009605+000004c4@msn.com>
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Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Organization: The Microsoft Network (msn.com)
Lines: 40

To:		sci.electronics.repair
Subject:		Engineering Forum

Hey all you Engineering types on the Usenets...aren't you getting 
tired of communicating with a single font? Don't you wish you could 
be surfing the NET using Windows 95 instead? ... maybe on the 
Microsoft Network online service? Is VT100 emulation ready for the 
recycling bin? We think so! Would you like to discuss things real 
time..online?

The MSN has an Engineering Forum, and through this area, you can 
participate in the good old fashioned ascii newsgroups...or take a 
leap into the unknown and use the rich text files, graphics and 
hot-links, top quality e-mail (with binary, OLE and other file 
attachments supported).

We have an extensive BBS system and several Engineering Professionals 
who are online and ready to hear your ideas, suggestions and 
requests...they even give technical support on Win95. We have created 
dedicated areas for all kinds of Engineering, and are happy to 
accomodate anyone we've missed out to date.

In addition we have a bunch of Excellent WWW shortcuts (ASME, IEEE, 
NASA, Dod, and lots of professional Institutions and societies are 
just a double-click away)... we've tried to make a great resource and 
thought you should know about it. Naturally you can browse the MSN 
and the WWW and other areas of the INTERNET simultaneously, using as 
many windows as you like.

We thought Engineering and Technical professionals might appreciate 
this! We maybe wrong, but we believe some Engineers also like to stay 
up to date...so Welcome to '95 (1995 that is)...and see ya in the 
forum! Oh I almost forgot to mention our chats...yes, we hold several 
chat events and other online discussions. It's time for Engineers to 
start talking and doing things again. How about online collaborations 
and other projects? Think about it.

Mark Cayton
Engineering Forum Manager
The Microsoft Network


From mkklein@cinti.net Tue Oct 24 21:31:49 EDT 1995
Article: 3079 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: mkklein@cinti.net (Matthew Klein)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ozone generater
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:26:31 GMT
Organization: Indoor Air Quality Solutions
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>I have to agree with Rich. Yes ozone helps destroy odors, but the 
>negative health effect are many.  I've searched in vain to find a 
>publication on all the ill effects of ozone - one of which is cancer.  
>Several years ago, I witnessed seven of my co-workers in a power plant 
>hauled to the hospital from ozone exposure, two of which nearly didn't 
>survive.  The ozone was generated from electro-stacic precipitators.  The 
>stuff in large quantities kills fast and in small quantities kills 
>slowly.  Forget the ozone generator!

In reality, research done by Mark Boeninger at NIOSH showed that ozone
has very little influence on chemicals.  However, it has a large
influence on the olfactory senses.  Basically, it affects the
olfactory nervous system.  In other words, you can't smell the
compounds anymore.

As for health effects, a lot of literature has been published on the
health effects of ozone.  Your local library should be able to do a
search for you on the subject.
>
>
>Roy Derryberry, KD3LZ    Member: Aircraft Owners and Pilot's Association 
>(red127@psu.edu)                             American Radio Relay League
>                                        Utility Workers Union of America
>
>If I'd known I was gonna live this long, I'd taken better care of myself.
>
>

Matthew Klein, PE
Indoor Air Quality Solutions
513-734-7526
mkklein@cinti.net
*************************
Wouldn't it be nice if common sense was really common?



From trumpeter@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:50 EDT 1995
Article: 3080 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: trumpeter@aol.com (Trumpeter)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: HELP WANTED - Performance Contracting Manager
Date: 19 Oct 1995 21:29:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT LEADER - PERFORMANCE CONTRACTING 
 
Managing the business activities for Performance Contracting, you will
provide 
technical support, recurit and develop personnel resources and support 
business activities with strategic alliances.  You will also forecast/plan
the 
execution of PC business, as well as assist in the development of support 
materials for the PC market. 
 
We require a BS/BA (Master's preferred) along with 5-8 years of related 
experience.  We also require a solid understanding of market demand and 
customer relations, as well as the ability to coordinate business
development 
efforts in a large market.  Strong business planning skills are essential.

 
In addition to remarkable growth potential, we offer an excellent salary
and 
benefits package.  For consideration please send your resume and salary 
history to: 
 
Landis & Gyr  
P.O. Box 704 
Pine Brook, NJ  07058 
 
FAX - 201-575-7968 
 
Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V.  Women and minorities are encouraged
to 
apply.


From trumpeter@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:51 EDT 1995
Article: 3081 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: trumpeter@aol.com (Trumpeter)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: HELP WANTED - PERFORMANCE CONTRACTING
Date: 19 Oct 1995 21:30:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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PROJECT MANAGER 
 
You will install and start-up mechanical and electrical PC projects. You
will also 
plan and schedule work loads, as well as submit project reports. 
Additionally, 
you will write subcontracts for mechanical and electrical contractors. 
 
We require 5+ years of project management experience (BSME/BSEE/BSIE 
preferred) along with a familiarity with energy and environmental
regulations.  
We also require an understanding of performance contracting and mechanical

services, as well as strong interpersonal and communication skills.  An 
understanding of HVAC and electrical equipment is essential, as is
computer 
literacy. 
 
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT LEADER - PERFORMANCE CONTRACTING 
 
Managing the business activities for Performance Contracting, you will
provide 
technical support, recurit and develop personnel resources and support 
business activities with strategic alliances.  You will also forecast/plan
the 
execution of PC business, as well as assist in the development of support 
materials for the PC market. 
 
We require a BS/BA (Master's preferred) along with 5-8 years of related 
experience.  We also require a solid understanding of market demand and 
customer relations, as well as the ability to coordinate business
development 
efforts in a large market.  Strong business planning skills are essential.

 
In addition to remarkable growth potential, we offer an excellent salary
and 
benefits package.  For consideration please send your resume and salary 
history to: 
 
Landis & Gyr  
P.O. Box 704 
Pine Brook, NJ  07058 
 
FAX - 201-575-7968 
 
Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V.  Women and minorities are encouraged
to 
apply.


From e7ret@meg.tesser.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:52 EDT 1995
Article: 3082 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: e7ret@meg.tesser.com (Joseph Orgeron)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Criogenics
Date: 19 Oct 1995 22:39:28 -0600
Organization: Tesser
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Why do the use a temperature of -251 F and below for criogenics? 
My HVAC class wants to know. 
-- 
Joseph Orgeron e7ret@tesser.com 
USAF Ret, SAC trained.  
"Half Bleed Cajun, If I was full Bleed, I coud't stood Myself." (Justan
Wilson) 


From smcarlson@mmm.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:53 EDT 1995
Article: 3083 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: smcarlson@mmm.com (Steve Carlson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Bryant Plus 90 FA furnace problem.  HELP!
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 16:19:57
Organization: WINS
Lines: 48
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Would appreciate any thoughts on what the following problem might be.



I will admit my skill level on forced air furnace installation would be 
considered NOVICE so pardon the lack of good terminology and common sense.  

Last winter I installed a Bryant Plus 90 natural gas furnace in my home.   
According to the manual I needed to vent the exhaust gases and supply fresh 
air (through an intake supply line) from the outside.  The manual (based on 
run length and number of elbows to the outside) sugested using 4" dia PVC 
pipe, although 2-1/2" would just be in spec too.  I had a run length of 
roughly 15 feet.  So I constructed an exhaust and intake system using the 4" 
PVC pipe.  The furnace ran, but seemed to run rough (flame was nice and blue 
though).  Let me explain what I call 'rough'.  It sounded like, and quite 
literally (the compressor fan? I think) pulsed and labored when it reached a 
harmonic resonant state.   When I disconnected the intake line at the furnace 
and let it suck air from the basement the furnace ran very smooth.   As soon 
as I connected the fresh air intake line back up the furnace (compressor?) 
would start to labor and shake.  It acted like the intake line were plugged.  
This was not the case however.  With the intake line connected I notice the 
furnace ran smooth when I gave it a little resistance by partially covering 
the intake.  

I then thought to try the next smaller size PVC pipe to see what would happen. 
I rebuilt the intake and exhaust with 2-1/2" PVC pipe (which the manual said 
was still in spec, but near the limit for my situation)  The furnace ran great 
when I used the 2-1/2" pipe. 

I now have moved the furnace (for other reasons) to a slightly different 
location.  I have a run length of 10 feet (so even more in spec for the 2-1/2" 
pipe), but the rough/pulsating/laboring problem is back.  Again, if I cover 
the intake ever so little the problem goes away.  What gives?  Is there some 
adjustment or setting I'm missing?  I would REALLY appreciate any hints with 
this.


-=Steve=-



__________________________________________________________
Steve M. Carlson                email: smcarlson@mmm.com
3M IT                               phone: (612)737-1318
3M Center 224-4N-20
P.O. Box 33224
Saint Paul, MN 55133-3224
__________________________________________________________


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Oct 24 21:31:54 EDT 1995
Article: 3084 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.energy.renewable,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.architecture.alternative,bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,bit.listserv.geodesic
Subject: An inexpensive, 100% solar house?
Date: 20 Oct 1995 09:18:44 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.energy:38846 alt.energy.renewable:9954 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3084 alt.architecture.alternative:5014 bit.listserv.geodesic:3114

Here's a house that looks like it could be 100% solar-heated, while 
providing close to 100% solar hot water as well, inexpensively...

One might start with Jim Cahill's house, designed by engineer Lyle Rawlings
at (609) 466-4495. This was manufactured by AvisAmerica at (800) 284-7263,
and built by Jim Cahill at (508) 677-3533. It is described in the
September/October 1995 issue of Solar Today, pp 24-27.
 
This very nice house in Falmouth, MA (5800 F DD), has 2530 ft^2 of floorspace.
The selling price is listed as $185K, including dealer/builder markup and
a 2 kW PV system, so the basic price of the house would be about $170K,
without the PV system, and about $160K without the backup heating system
or other solar features. Building it without a basement should also lower
the price.

The estimated annual non-solar fuel requirement is the heat equivalent of 
140 gallons of oil (although the house has a natural gas-fired forced hot
water backup heating system.) Minimal hot water usage would add another
60 gallons of oil a year to that requirement, making 200 gallons of oil
per year. How can we lower that backup heating requirement to zero? (One
might also ask, why bother to do anything at all to this superinsulated
house, with a basic yearly heating bill of $660, but that's another story.)

As designed, the house has 419 ft^2 of south-facing glass, with minimal
glazing on the other walls. The ceiling has R38 insulation, and the walls
are R27. The house has a remarkably low air infiltration rate of 0.0125 ACH,
based on a 50 Pascal air infiltration rate of 0.25 ACH. The house is 44'
long and 28' wide and two stories tall.

The south windows seem to be the biggest heat losers here:

Sum (Ai/Ri) = 420 ft^2/R2 + 28'x44'/R38 + (16'(28'+44')x2-420)/R27
              windows       ceiling       walls
            = 210         + 32          + 70      =   312.

It looks like these south windows account for about 70% of the heat loss of
the house, ignoring the air infiltration, which is 1/8 of the ceiling loss.
The south windows also contribute solar gain, when the sun is shining.

Suppose we somehow change this house so most of the south wall is an
insulated frame wall, like the rest of the house walls... ("Oh, it will be
less dramatic!" :-) And add some curved galvanized steel pipes and plastic
glazing to make a low-thermal mass sunspace, with a solar closet behind it.
How big will the sunspace and solar closet have to be, in order to provide
100% of the space heating and close to 100% of the hot water for the house?

With an insulated south wall, the new sum above becomes about 120 Btu/hr-F.
If the average temperature in December is 32 F, the house would need about
100K Btu of heat on an average December day. If the the sunspace provides
a net solar gain of say, 750 Btu/ft^2/day, it will have to have

      24hr x 120 (68-32) = 138 ft^2 of glazing.

Let's make it 200 ft^2, so the solar closet can provide hot water as well.
If the sunspace were 16' tall, it would be about 12' wide. The house
would look something like this:


                      28'
        . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             . 44'
        .                             .
        .                             .
        .                             .
        . 4'                          .
. . . . . . .                         .
.       .   .                         .
.       .   .                         .
.       .   . 12'  sauna?             .
.       .   . . ./ clothes drying?    .
.       .   .   .                     . 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    8'
                      . 
                    . f .
                  .   \   .
polycarb roof?  .     s \   .         I added a solar attic here too, for fun,
              .       s   \   .       using corrugated clear polycarbonate
            .         s     \   .     plastic, and a fan with a backdraft 
          .           s       \   .   damper at the top, to blow down warm
        . md. . . . . . . . . . . g . air from the peak of the attic into
       ..             .             . the house, where it wends its way back
      . .             .             . up to the attic through a motorized
     .  .dhw          .             . return damper, md. g are airflow grates.
    .   . . . g . . . . . . . . . g . The fan is controlled by an attic fan
   .    . f .         .             . thermostat in series with a house 
  .     .   .         .             . thermostat. This is another way to make
 .      .   .     <== g             . a low-thermal-mass sunspace.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

s is some greenhouse shadecloth (optional), f is 10' of fin-tube radiator
pipe, and dhw is a conventional or indirect-fired water heater ("geyser"
in the UK), which is heated by natural water convection using the fin-tube
as an air-water heat exchanger.

The low-thermal mass sunspace ($1000?) would work best with a fan controlled
by an attic thermostat and a house thermostat in series, as well as plastic
film backdraft dampers, to prevent reverse airflow at night. The solar closet
($500?) would store enough heat for 5 days without any sun, using

        5 days x 100K Btu/day /((130F-80F)x 55 gal x 8lb/gal) = 24

55-gallon sealed drums full of water, assuming an initial water temperature
of 130 F, and a minimal usable space heating closet water temperature of 80 F.

Who will be the first to order one of these houses?

Nick



From dwinstonpe@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:56 EDT 1995
Article: 3085 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: dwinstonpe@aol.com (DWinstonPE)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Steam and hot (hydronic) water from same boiler?
Date: 20 Oct 1995 03:29:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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In article <cowens.814025275@labs-n.bbn.com>, cowens@bbn.com (Christopher
Owens) writes:

>I want to pull a hot water loop off a steam boiler, for the purpose of
>heating an indirect domestic hot water tank (and maybe for supplying a
>basement hot water radiator or baseboard while I'm at it.)  I believe
>this should work in theory, but my plumber is a bit skeptical.  I
>respect skepticism in someone who installs expensive, durable stuff in
>small spaces, so I'd like to hear from anyone else who's done what I'm
>proposing.

It is generally considered poor practice to take water from a steam boiler
for any purpose other than blowdown. If the tappings you mention are close
to the water line, you could wind up pulling steam into your circulating
pump, and killing the bearings, seals, motor, etc.
The Slant Fin Galaxy series boilers are availible with tankless coils.
Best to use the right equipment for the job rather than create a one-off
kluge such as you are proposing.

Don Winston PE <dwinstonpe@aol.com>
Mechanical Solutions
Great Neck, NY


From matthew@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov Tue Oct 24 21:31:57 EDT 1995
Article: 3086 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: matthew@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Matt Moran)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Criogenics
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 95 17:03:05 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
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In Article <467960$fgn@meg.tesser.com>, e7ret@meg.tesser.com (Joseph
Orgeron) wrote:
>Why do the use a temperature of -251 F and below for criogenics? 
>My HVAC class wants to know. 
>-- 

According to Barron's text (Cryogenic Systems, 2nd Ed.), the upper limit for
cryogenics is approximately -240 F because the normal boiling point (NBP) of
the permanent gases (e.g. oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, ...) lies below this
value; while the NBP of conventional refrigerents (e.g. freon, ammonia, ...)
lies above it.


From richbyrd@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:31:58 EDT 1995
Article: 3087 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: richbyrd@ix.netcom.com (Richard Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: IAQ Regs. worthless!
Date: 20 Oct 1995 04:35:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 35
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References: <4658ff$n23@huron.eel.ufl.edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 19  9:35:51 PM PDT 1995

In <4658ff$n23@huron.eel.ufl.edu> afn03528@afn.org (Ken Robinson)
writes: 
>
>I don't have time to detail this story, but will add to it this
weekend.
>
>Orange County Florida recently began a complete rebuild of their
fairly
>new Courthouse. They planned to replace all air conditioning hardware,
>including duct work, hoping to eliminate mold and other IAQ problems. 
>During demolition mold was found inside all interior walls. To make a
long
>story short the building has been abandoned and will likely be
demolished. 
>
>What is it going to take to stop this waste of time and money?
>
>I recently received a contract from the University of Florida to
assist 
>in a program to eliminate humidity and associated IAQ problems in
several 
>large dormitory units. All suffer from "value engineering" and will 
>likely require large doses of money to solve.
>
>Comments from IAQ folks and those familiar with Codes Administration 
>related to this subject would be appreciated. 
>
>afn03528@freenet.ufl.edu (Ken Robinson)
>
>
Two problems: Codes are often years behind the state-of-knowledge. 
Codes have to fit the climate they are in; you don't build in Florida
the way you do in Minnesota or Arizona.

Rich Byrd


From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Oct 24 21:31:59 EDT 1995
Article: 3088 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Recommendations for HVAC programmable controllers?
Date: 19 Oct 1995 04:17:22 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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Keywords: programmable controller

James VanBokkelen <jbvb@satisfied.apocalypse.org> wrote:

>Anybody using programmable controllers in HVAC applications?
... 
>I am dissatisfied with current commercial solar hot water differential
>controllers; to replace them I need something that can monitor 3
>temperature sensors and drive at least 1 relay (3 would be better) to
>control 110VAC devices.

I suppose you know about the Heliotrope General Temptrak II, about $180
wholesale, which takes up to 5 thermistor temp probes and has a 3 digit
display and a 110 VAC receptacle on the box.

The Lambert Engineering Data Trap costs $2,500 and uses 6 watts, with AD592
temp probes. It has 8 analog input channels, 8 digital inputs and 8 digital
outputs (which need relays to drive 110V, eg the nice 2.5 A Crydom D1202
solid state relays available used for $3.50 each from All Electronics at
(800) 826-5432), and this is expandable. The Trap does a good job of measuring
AC single or polyphase power with current transformers, even for devices
with odd current waveforms. We attached a LiCor pyranometer to measure sun
power. It has numerous programmable algorithms to control output channels, an
RS-232 interface that you can attach to a modem, etc. There are cheaper data 
logger/controllers around, if you don't need accurate AC power measurement. 

Have you checked out MicroMint controllers?

Nick



From richbyrd@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:01 EDT 1995
Article: 3089 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: richbyrd@ix.netcom.com (Richard Byrd)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strange HVAC design
Date: 20 Oct 1995 04:40:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 58
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 19  9:40:01 PM PDT 1995

In <466kp7$flr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD) writes:

>
>In article <461qjo$t05@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, richbyrd@ix.netcom.com
>(Richard Byrd) writes:
>
>>
>>Today I did an investigation at a multi-story story luxury
condominium
>>building (in Beverly Hills of course).  A resident on the top floor
is
>>intermittently getting odors from the floor below.
>>
>>Each condo has two A/C's in closets, with electric heat.  The closet
is
>>used as a return plenum.  In each closet there is a vent, going to a
>>shaft up to the roof.  I would assume that these are intended as
>>outside air intakes; on the blueprints they are labelled as exhausts
>>(no, I did not mis-read the prints).  With the A/C off, they do
>>function as exhausts; with the A/C on, air is pulled from the
"exhaust"
>>vents.  Obvious conclusion: When downstairs neighbor is cooking with
>>their A/C turned off, and upstairs neighbor has A/C on, they pull the
>>odor right in through the outside air / exhaust /
>>what-the-heck-is-it-anyway vent.
>>
>>Questions for all you oh-so-wise HVAC people: What is the purpose of
>>this vent?  Is there some code requirement involved?
>>
>>
>
>The question is whether the shaft was intended for fresh air or
exhaust.
>If it was intended for fresh air, then a motorized damper (open with
>either A/C) would be needed in each apartment to prevent reverse flow
>(into the shaft).
>
>If the shaft were meant for exhaust, then the closets should not be
used
>for a return plenum and the returns need to be ducted. Do the prints
show
>the closets being used as return plenums? It wouldn't be too
surprizing to
>find that someone saved a few bucks by not installing return ducts.
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Gary
>

Thanks Gary.  The construction matches the prints; return plenum and
all.  They say the shafts are exhausts.

Wouldn't it be optimum to turn the shafts into outside air intakes by
putting a fan at the top of the shaft? Should prevent backflow whether
the A/C's are running or not, correct (if fan is sized right)?

Rich


From PZAVON@news.delphi.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:01 EDT 1995
Article: 3090 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!simtel!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!elvis.delphi.com!news.delphi.com!news2.delphi.com!not-for-mail
From: PZAVON@news.delphi.com (PZAVON@DELPHI.COM)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ozone generater
Date: 20 Oct 1995 23:29:59 -0400
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <469pfn$og4@news2.delphi.com>
References: <461f3t$c8a@enterprise.america.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: news2.delphi.com

rogera@america.com (Roger Alexon) writes:

>Need info on ozone generater that can be installed in duct on office
>a.c.

Now, WHY would anyone want to create ozone in a ventilation duct?  The 
best outcome of that would be that not much ozone would be created, and 
no one in the office would realize it was there.  The worst outcome would 
be lots of ozone creation, with the resulting respiratory irritation and 
complaints from the office occupants.  There is no beneficial function 
that ozone could perform in such a situation.

Peter Zavon, CIH

Penfield, NY

PZAVON@Delphi.com


From Gerry.Ferns@icic.on.ca Tue Oct 24 21:32:02 EDT 1995
Article: 3091 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!newshost.icis.on.ca!ts1-10.icis.on.ca!user
From: Gerry.Ferns@icic.on.ca (Gerry Ferns)
Subject: Re: Heat produced by PC's
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ts1-10.icis.on.ca
Message-ID: <Gerry.Ferns-1910950953060001@ts1-10.icis.on.ca>
Sender: news@icis.on.ca (Newsie)
Organization: Technographics
References: <45pk9n$s7q@news2.getnet.com> <45t084$13fm@news.mindspring.com> <45tdsh$1f3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:53:04 GMT
Lines: 10

In article <45tdsh$1f3@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>, nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu
(Nick Pine) wrote:

ACCA Manual N Table 12 recommends using 1300 Btu/h. for a PC and a printer.

It also recomends 4500 Btu/h. for a small copier.  As a small copier is
similar in power supply to a laser printer, I would use that figure for a
laser.

Both figures are sensible heat.  No latent calc. required.


From simon@simonw.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 24 21:32:04 EDT 1995
Article: 3092 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Simon White <simon@simonw.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Infiltration/ insulation survey equipment
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 14:18:52 GMT
Organization: Welton
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <814112332snz@simonw.demon.co.uk>
References: <463c54$np3@sundog.tiac.net>
Reply-To: simon@simonw.demon.co.uk
X-NNTP-Posting-Host: simonw.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29

In article <463c54$np3@sundog.tiac.net>
           mike.andelman@shooshanian.com "Michael Andelman" writes:
> I'm looking for sources for survey equipment/ methods for measuring u-values
>  and 
> building infiltration for non-residential applications.  Any leads or
>  endorsements 
> of a particular product or method would be appreciated. 

A lead for building infiltration is Building Research Establishment (BRE)
Information Paper IP 13/95 - The passive gas tracer method for monitoring
ventilation rates in buildings.

BRE have a web page at http://www.bre.co.uk
-- 
Simon White                                       Aequam memento rebus in
simon@simonw.demon.co.uk                            arduis servare mentem


From varadha@grove.ufl.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:05 EDT 1995
Article: 3093 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: varadha@grove.ufl.edu (Varatharajan Nagabushnam)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: viscocity,specific heat reqd.
Date: 19 Oct 1995 15:32:11 GMT
Organization: University of Florida
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NNTP-Posting-Host: grove.ufl.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

  HI Netters,
        My name is Rajan Nagabushnam, currently pursuing my Ph.D in Materials
        science & Engg at the University of Florida. My research area is in the
        are  of Rapid Thermal Processing of Materials. The work primarily 
        involves  modeling temperature non-uniformity occurring across large 
	size wafer surface.

        What I am looking for?

        Viscosity, Thermal conductivity and specific heat capacity data as a 
	function of Temperature (upto 900 C) for low pressure regimes (from 0.1		 to 1 atm).
        As far as I know the data currently available is limited only to 200 C.

         Anyone who knows about the sources of these data, please respond to me
        at (904)-846-5963

                or varadha@grove.circa.ufl.edu (email)

                Thanks a lot in advance

                Rajan



From lib@archiweb.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:06 EDT 1995
Article: 3094 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!in2.uu.net!news.iij.ad.jp!rim.or.jp!rim.or.jp!news
From: lib@archiweb.com (Anthony Alvarez)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Request for News
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:49:08 GMT
Organization: ArchiWeb, Japan's #1 site for Architecture on the Net
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp841.st.rim.or.jp
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Introducing ArchiWeb plaza at  http://www.archiweb.com.

Our primary mission is to be a resource for Japanese architects. But 
equally important is a desire to help non-Japanese Architects "import"

their technolgy, work and ideas to Japan.  We have collected some 
links related to this newsgroup in our Digital Library. Please visit
us.






From jhite@imtn.dsccc.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:09 EDT 1995
Article: 3095 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jhite@imtn.dsccc.com (John Hite)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Residential Furnace Inspections
Date: 19 Oct 1995 20:30:02 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corporation, Plano, Texas USA
Lines: 59
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Doug Geddes (dgeddes1@frontier.canrem.com) wrote:


[ ... ]

: I would appreciate anyone else's response re leaky heat exchangers and 
: their experience with test methods.

: Regards
: Doug

--

I'm a telecom test engineer who has missed his calling, is bored with an office job,
and getting a little middle aged crazy. Some combination of each has caused me to 
become a neophite (student @ Grayson County College) in the HVACR field. Reading
Doug's post caused me to remember that one of my instructors, who is a practitioner
by day and instructor by night had recently mentioned heat exchangers as an aside
during a lecture on heating control circuits. He's been in business for 30+ years
so I thought his opinion might be worth much more than mine. Besides using CO
detectors, he watches the flame when the fan comes on. The effects will vary but a
leak will usually have a momentary or prolonged visible effect on the flame. Then
after explaining to the customer what he is about to do, he will rattle a breaker
bar or similar non sharp edged tool around inside the exchanger to break loose the
sheets of rust and checks the flame and CO detector again. He's never had any 
complaints after explaining that any leak that is being masked by a sheet of rust 
or scale needs to be exposed b4 the rust breaks loose of its own accord. This is
probably a close approximation of what he said as I was also concentrating on 
wiring up my first heat pump trainer at the same time.

On another topic, I've been a visitor here in north Texas for 17 years ( they won't
let me be a Texan since I wasn't born here). After completing my AS degree I'd like
to move back to the southeast. Can anyone speculate on career opportunities in
Virginia or North Carolina? Do states have reciprocal liscensing agreements or 
transfers?
 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

=================================================================

John Hite, green broke but learning	 (jhite@imtn.dsccc.com) 

DSC Communications Corp.
1000 Coit Rd - MS 320
Plano, Tx 75075

214-519-4619


Home: 
POB 383
Denison, Tx 75021
903-813-4102

This boy can't dance, but that's OK 
'cause my horse knows the Fox Trot
and she let's me lead.	 
=================================================================


From tmethod@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:11 EDT 1995
Article: 3096 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strange HVAC design
Date: 19 Oct 1995 18:51:19 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 46
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In article <461qjo$t05@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, richbyrd@ix.netcom.com
(Richard Byrd) writes:

>
>Today I did an investigation at a multi-story story luxury condominium
>building (in Beverly Hills of course).  A resident on the top floor is
>intermittently getting odors from the floor below.
>
>Each condo has two A/C's in closets, with electric heat.  The closet is
>used as a return plenum.  In each closet there is a vent, going to a
>shaft up to the roof.  I would assume that these are intended as
>outside air intakes; on the blueprints they are labelled as exhausts
>(no, I did not mis-read the prints).  With the A/C off, they do
>function as exhausts; with the A/C on, air is pulled from the "exhaust"
>vents.  Obvious conclusion: When downstairs neighbor is cooking with
>their A/C turned off, and upstairs neighbor has A/C on, they pull the
>odor right in through the outside air / exhaust /
>what-the-heck-is-it-anyway vent.
>
>Questions for all you oh-so-wise HVAC people: What is the purpose of
>this vent?  Is there some code requirement involved?
>
>

The question is whether the shaft was intended for fresh air or exhaust.
If it was intended for fresh air, then a motorized damper (open with
either A/C) would be needed in each apartment to prevent reverse flow
(into the shaft).

If the shaft were meant for exhaust, then the closets should not be used
for a return plenum and the returns need to be ducted. Do the prints show
the closets being used as return plenums? It wouldn't be too surprizing to
find that someone saved a few bucks by not installing return ducts.

Hope this helps.

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:12 EDT 1995
Article: 3097 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!prodigy.com!usenet
From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: York residential equipment
Date: 20 Oct 1995 00:29:23 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <466qh3$olo@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
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X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

>Armstrong furnace efficiencies are shown in the Gas Appliance 
Manufacturer's 
>Association (GAMA) directory in the U.S.  If you know the model #, I can 

>probably look it up for you - their AFUE ranges from 80-81%, York are 
about 
>the same and some Rheem (actually called RUUD) models are slightly 
higher and 
>many are also in the same efficiency range.  I didn't know Armstrong was 
owned 
>by Lennox, I don't believe they are distributed here by Lennox Canada, 
but are 
>available from distributors.

Armstrong is totally separate from Lennox. Marketed in the USA by 
independent distributors where Lennox is sold thru factory outlets. 
Furnaces are similar and Armstrong makes the same oil furnace for Lennox 
too. 

Paloma (a Japanese water heater maker) owns Rheem Manufacturing which 
makes products under the Rheem, Ruud & WeatherKing name. All are 
identical. 

Gas equipment won't get much more than 80% AFUE without condensation 
problems. Some are as low as 78%. The pilot Rheem 78% really is as cheap 
to run as the 80% if you look at electric use of ignitor & inducer during 
pre-purge. That tiny pilot uses so little gas it doesn't add up much. 
Besides, replacing a hot surface ignitor every few years gets expensive! 
I wouldn't worry much about exact AFUE in that range. In the 90+ range, 
most are in the 90-92% AFUE area. Amana has a line that each unit is 95%. 
Most brands quote "up to 96%" but the most efficient unit is some little 
40,000 BTU unit. Rheem's most efficient, at 94%, is the 120,000 model - 
where every ounce of efficiency is needed!  



From trumpeter@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:14 EDT 1995
Article: 3098 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: trumpeter@aol.com (Trumpeter)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: HELP WANTED - Project Manager
Date: 19 Oct 1995 21:29:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 32
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <466u2b$kg3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: trumpeter@aol.com (Trumpeter)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

PROJECT MANAGER - PERFORMANCE CONTRACTING
 
You will install and start-up mechanical and electrical PC projects. You
will also 
plan and schedule work loads, as well as submit project reports. 
Additionally, 
you will write subcontracts for mechanical and electrical contractors. 
 
We require 5+ years of project management experience (BSME/BSEE/BSIE 
preferred) along with a familiarity with energy and environmental
regulations.  
We also require an understanding of performance contracting and mechanical

services, as well as strong interpersonal and communication skills.  An 
understanding of HVAC and electrical equipment is essential, as is
computer 
literacy. 
 
In addition to remarkable growth potential, we offer an excellent salary
and 
benefits package.  For consideration please send your resume and salary 
history to: 
 
Landis & Gyr  
P.O. Box 704 
Pine Brook, NJ  07058 
 
FAX - 201-575-7968 
 
Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V.  Women and minorities are encouraged
to 
apply.


From johnm@online.dct.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:15 EDT 1995
Article: 3099 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!fullfeed!news.atw.fullfeed.com!online.dct.com!usenet
From: johnm@online.dct.com  (John McMonagle)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Dew point calculation
Date: 20 Oct 1995 01:08:04 GMT
Organization: Green Bay Online
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <466spl$fsi@online.dct.com>
Reply-To: johnm@online.dct.com  (John McMonagle)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.29.185.105
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2

Is there a formula to calculate dew point from temperature and relative
humidity?

I need to monitor small changes in absolute moisture levels
and a formula is easier than entering a table and
interpolating.  Looking at the conversion chart the curves look
fairly "simple".


John McMonagle
PMI
PO Box 8402
Green Bay WI 54311
414-468-6040
414-465-0464 FAX
414-465-1656 BBS
http://www.dct.com/~johnm



From danel@gramercy.ios.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:16 EDT 1995
Article: 3100 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.ios.com!news
From: Dave Nelsen <danel@gramercy.ios.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Double-venting radiators in one-pipe steam system
Date: 20 Oct 1995 01:38:17 GMT
Organization: National Assocation Of Oil Heating Service Managers
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <466ui9$nom@news.ios.com>
References: <16OCT95.14575223@sallie.wellesley.edu>
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To: mwolf@sallie.wellesley.edu

if you are having problems with a slow radiator on a one pipe steam system 
it is most likley due to a bad main steam vent. these vents allow the 
steam to quickley travel down the main then rise up to the radiators. the 
problem with double venting the radiator is when a lot of steam enters a 
cold radiator it will condence forming a vaccume and draw air back into 
the radiator until it equilizes. if you still have aproblem after 
replacing the main vents you can try venting the riser leading to the 
radiator this will get the steam to the radiator quickly then a normal 
vent can be used on the radiator itself.



From danel@gramercy.ios.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:18 EDT 1995
Article: 3101 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.ios.com!news
From: Dave Nelsen <danel@gramercy.ios.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Question on Burnham/Villant boilers
Date: 20 Oct 1995 01:46:57 GMT
Organization: National Assocation Of Oil Heating Service Managers
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References: <1995Oct17.134650.1@stosc>
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To: whelan@stsci.edu

if you are going to us the boiler for both heating and hot water 
production then the burnham boiler is the better of the two. the Viallant 
f-75 is an adaption of the f-70 the differance is a bubble at the top of 
the f-75 to install a coil in. this was done for the US market the 
Viallant is a German boiler and they do not produce hot water from coils 
their. the burnham v7 was designed to produce hot water. both boilers are 
wet base cast iron and are very efficient when coupled with the proper 
burner.



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:18 EDT 1995
Article: 3102 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: 'Annotated Bucky'
Date: 20 Oct 1995 04:27:39 -0400
Organization: Villanova University
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NNTP-Posting-Host: vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu

dave suwala  <dave.suwala@REICHHOLD.COM> wrote:

>>   Given that none of us can afford custom tooling for integrated 
>>   aircraft-like modular housing, we are left with a number of
>>   unexploited neat concepts to test and work upon.

The tooling was supposed to make the product less expensive.
Of course you have to build more than one product :-)
 
>    I suppose that this refers to the first of Bucky's housing concepts.
>    It was made of stamped sheet metal with a dome-like top
>    and suspended on a services pillar.

A pre-Dymaxion house, made from standard silo parts?

>    It must have been a disaster to heat and cool.

Well, energy was cheaper then. It seems to me that the least expensive
buildings today are still made of sheet metal, eg painted steel. Steel barns
and sheds cost about $5/ft^2 where I live, a lot less than wooden ones,
these days. But they probably leak air a lot, and how do you insulate them?
Spray sticky cellulose foam on the inside? Is that sufficiently fireproof?
Polyurethane isn't. Perhaps fiberglass, with Thermo-Ply or Drywall over that.
Or in the case of a shed, just a layer of polyethylene film over that. With
a layer of Tyvek next to the steel to control air infiltration? Foil-faced
bubble pack has also been used to insulate steel buildings.

>    Certainly, this would have been expensive in today's terms
>    (custom tooling for integrated aircraft-like modular housing)

Tooling of some sort can help make houses less expensive, and while the
tooling costs more than a single homeowner would pay, it may still be within
reach of a small company. Computers help too, these days. For instance,
engineer Lyle Rawlings at (609) 466-4495 says that Avis Modular Homes in
Avis, PA, near Williamsport, use simple tooling, jigs, etc, to make
practically any sort of custom modular house, within limits, starting from
a sketch, with a relatively small fixed $500 design fee. Once they get started
building the house, it takes about 5 days for it to move through their
production line, another 2 days to put it up on a site, and 2 or 3 more
weeks to hook up the plumbing, etc.

The Avis house is better than one built on site. For instance, these houses 
are said to have an air infiltration rate (air leakiness) of 0.25 air changes
per hour at 50 Pascals of pressure, ie about 0.0125 air changes per hour
in average winter weather (dividing that 50 Pascal number by 20, using the
formula in Nisson and Dutt's _Superinsulated Home Book_) vs. 1 or 2 air
changes per hour for an average house. To put this in perspective, a
30' x 30' x 16' tall house contains about 16,000 ft^3, and 1 Btu heats
about 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F, and a gallon of oil as burned in a house
today contains some 100,000 Btu, so an Avis house in Philadelphia's 5500 F
degree day winter heating season would need about

5500 x 24 h/d x 0.0125 x 16,000/55/100,000 = 4.8 gallons of oil a year

to heat the air that naturally leaks out of the house, while an average
house that size would need closer to 400 gallons of oil a year, just to
take care of the air leakiness, even if it had perfect insulation. The
Avis house would probably need some sort of deliberate ventilation, eg
an air-air heat exchanger, since the natural air leakiness would only
provide about 3 cfm of outside air in the winter. 

These houses are said to cost less than a house built on site, as well,
even with low local labor rates.

>    I have been in a geodesic dome recently and this type of structure
>    does bring questions to mind.  Who can tolerate non-Cartesian walls
>    from which you cannot hang pictures?

It helps to think round, in the interior design phase, eg pie-shaped rooms 
with radial walls. If there must be square spaces, eg kitchens or living
rooms, those often work better in the center.

Maybe you get a different feeling when you live in one of these, vs. just
visiting one. When I visit a dome, I know in my head that it has lots of
floor space, but it feels small to me, perhaps because I can see the
boundaries of the whole structure from the inside, unlike a conventional
house, divided up into rooms. I did a little farming on a 126 acre plot
30 years ago, and the open fields looked fairly big to me then, but when
I revisited the farm last year, the owners had allowed it to return to
nature, and as I walked around the former fields on trails through woods
with 6" diameter trees blocking my view, the space felt huge, and very
private. Much nicer, it seemed to me.

>    ...when you erect the vertical walls to divide the interior spaces,
>    does that not destroy the merits of the dome for convection
>    heating/cooling?

I wouldn't think so. But the floors might, unless they had some holes.

Nick



From yellojkt@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:19 EDT 1995
Article: 3103 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: yellojkt@ix.netcom.com (Michael McKenna)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Ductulator Curve Equations Wanted
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 07:23:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <46784d$atr@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <45vq6u$27g@nuhou.aloha.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 19  9:21:33 PM PDT 1995
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Michael Lum <annmari@aloha.net> wrote:

>Has anyone noticed that the current Trane Ductulator predicts air 
>friction values that are 1% to 12% higher than values read from 
>the ASHRAE air friction curves?  Does anybody know why?  Does 
>anyone know who generated the curves used in the Ductulator?

If you read the fine print very carefully, you'll find that the
friction values in the duculator are based on the roughness of lined
or fiberglass duct and as such will always be more conservative that
the ASHRAE tables.

I've seen duculators with references to the 1956 Fundamentals, so how
old the source calculations are is anyone's guess.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong,
The Yello Jacket
**************************************************            
yellojkt@ix.netcom.com
"Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and
healthy and happy." --The Books of Bokonon 1:5



From ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:21 EDT 1995
Article: 3104 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: testing oil miscibility/oil return
Date: 21 Oct 1995 11:52:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <46amuk$h1q@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu
Keywords: oil miscibility and logging

For all you experts out there on oil return in R-12 low temp systems.

I built a refrigeration test stand out of a 2-ton med temp R-12
semi-hermetic Copeland compressor.  The goal is to try to force
oil logging (poor oil return) to occur.

Evaporator is a 50 foot coil of 5/8" refrigeration copper, in free air,
no fan or fins.  The coil diameter is around 14 inches and spread out to
be about 2 1/2 feet deep.  The centerline of the coil is parallel
to the ground, providing each loop (11 of them) a chance to "trap"
oil.  Sight glasses all over the place.  Evaporator heat can be provided
>from  direct electric heating of the coil, upto 310 Amps, approx 5V.
The liquid line has a 1 foot rubber hose (automotive barrier hose) 
segment to block current flow thru the condenser and compressor.

The (hand operated) metering device is a multiturn needle valve, 
approx 4 tons capacity wide open.

The suction line, is a 6 foot piece of 7/8" vertical (straight up)
copper, followed, by a 6 foot horiz run (also 7/8").  The horizontal
run has a "low spot", about 1 inch lower than the ends, for oil to
collect in (and a sight glass).  There is also a manual EPR
(ball valve, with 3/4" opening), with low side gauges on either side
of the valve.

Operating temps on the evap, with R-12-like refrigerants will be -30 to -40F,
so the 2 ton med temp compressor will be delivering less than 1/2
ton effective.  This should further magnify the effect of the
large diameter suction line on poor oil return.

Can anyone think of anything more torturous for oil logging?
100ft suction line?

thanks in advance
--ghg


From tomh@metrics.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:22 EDT 1995
Article: 3105 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tomh@metrics.com (Tom Haapanen)
Subject: Canceling HVAC noise?
Organization: Software Metrics Inc.
Message-ID: <DGt9nt.24D@metrics.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:21:29 GMT
Lines: 18


We are looking for ways to reduce noise in our office environment, and the
biggest culprit is our roof-mounted heating and air conditioning system.
Some offices are incredibly noisy when the system switches on, others are
merely bothersome.

I have seen at some other offices some type of noise canceling systems --
possibly based on white noise generation.  I also believe these are 
being used or at least studied for use in airplanes and cars as well.

Where can I find information about these?  It's really hard to use the
yellow pages when I don't really even know what I'm looking for.  :)

Thanks!

-- 
[ /tom haapanen -- tomh@metrics.com -- software metrics inc -- waterloo, ont ]
[ "never prophesy, especially about the future"            -- samuel goldwyn ]


From hbaker@netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:23 EDT 1995
Article: 3106 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.home.repair,comp.home.automation
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From: hbaker@netcom.com (Henry Baker)
Subject: Where are all the Solar Web Pages??
Message-ID: <hbaker-2110950959530001@10.0.2.15>
Sender: hbaker@netcom20.netcom.com
Organization: nil organization
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 17:59:53 GMT
Lines: 10
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3106 alt.home.repair:11797 comp.home.automation:11629

I was at a BookStar yesterday, and couldn't find a single book on solar
energy for single-family homes.  Has this concept completely died?

Are there good places on the Web for solar info?

Thanks in advance.

-- 
www/ftp directory:
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/home.html


From gouldingkm@reliability-magazine.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:24 EDT 1995
Article: 3107 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Kay Goulding <gouldingkm@reliability-magazine.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Reliability Magazine WWW Site
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:42:25 +0000
Organization: First Internet Resources, Inc.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <308914E1.7DA3@reliability-magazine.com>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b1 (Macintosh; I; 68K)

Reliability magazine now has a WWW site. Reliability magazine is the first 
trade journal dedicated specifically to the PREDICTIVE MAINTENANCE 
industry. Topics covered in every issue include Maintenance Management, 
Alignment, Balancing, CMMS (Computerized Maintenance Management 
Systems),Infrared-Thermography, Lubrication, Service, Training, and 
Vibration Analysis. Our web site is located at

http://www.reliability-magazine.com/

Visit us soon, and get acquainted with an important information resource 
for the Predictive Maintenance industry!


From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:26 EDT 1995
Article: 3108 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Bryant Plus 90 FA furnace problem.  HELP!
Date: 20 Oct 1995 23:36:19 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
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Have you checked gas pressure? I haven't worked on that particular 
furnace but from what I can see, the gas valve references vent pressures 
to set gas pressure, just like the Rheem gas drum furnace did. Gas 
pressure on the manifold needed to be perfect with that furnace. 
Disconnecting the intake on it cleaned up burning problems too. Check the 
manual for the exact method of checking manifold pressure. On the Rheem 
it was complicated! Make sure it is set properly. 

That's my guess!



From wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:27 EDT 1995
Article: 3109 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: William Stewart <wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: 20 Oct 1995 20:13:30 GMT
Organization: EDS Corporation
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <468vta$glc@maverick.tad.eds.com>
References: <wpb5.160.306F7323@psu.edu> <4525bs$704@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <wpb5.174.307553EF@psu.edu>
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wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth) wrote:
>ACADManR12 wrote:

>>The problem
>>with an ice storage system in a residential application is the associated
>>costs of the new equipment required to convert the present AC system from
>>DX refrigeration to chilled water...


>Quote from Lennox "TES Update" dated January, 1995:

>"The multiple-patented Lennox Cool Thermal Energy Storage (CTES) concept was 
>developed to reduce on-peak electric power demand due to air conditioning...

>To meet these objectives, the Lennox CTES concept is an _all_DX_ 
>refrigerant-based design (no secondary circulating fluids) that integrates 
>with the HVAC system refrigeration circuit providing three distinct modes of 
>operation:

>Direct cooling at system ARI rated efficiency.
>Ice making.
>Ice discharging cooling."

>This is the equipment I mentioned seeing at the equipment show in Chicago in 
>January.  As I stated previously, the problem with residential storage is that 
>most rate structures don't include demand charges.  Therefore, without utility 
>incentives to prop up the technology, it has no economic advantage over less 
>expensive conventional systems.

What about the occurrence of lower temperatures at night?  Wouldn't this provide 
an opportunity to take advantage of lower ambient temperatures?  Of course, extra 
losses have to be taken into account.  Does Lennox reference any studies or 
estimates?


-- 
William R. Stewart, Jr.		wstewart@deispo.deisva.msd.eds.com
DEIS Technical Team		(703)760-0239
Application Development Lead







From BKBY81A@prodigy.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:28 EDT 1995
Article: 3110 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: BKBY81A@prodigy.com (John Mills)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: HVAC-related media
Date: 21 Oct 1995 23:07:02 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 4
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <46buem$10d8@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
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X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

Please repost Appliance Magazine's URL. I missed it.

Trane's address is WWW.TRANE.COM for any Choo Choo fans.



From axxxion@tiac.net Tue Oct 24 21:32:29 EDT 1995
Article: 3111 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: axxxion@tiac.net
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: ??Gas Stoves/ovens that act as heaters??
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:27:54 EST
Organization: The Internet Access Company
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <axxxion.785.0005C565@tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cirphartzalot.tiac.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B]

Hi,

	I have this old fashioned oven/stove (1949) that also has attached to it a 
kerosine heater(burns some type of log?). My question is: is there such a 
thing as a modern day oven/stove that only uses gas that does the same thing? 
Also heats the room.


			Your comments most appreciated,

				Ron


From joseph@cts.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:30 EDT 1995
Article: 3112 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: joseph@cts.com (Joseph Hunter)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: EXCUSE ME !
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 10:38:03 GMT
Organization: T.I.P.S. Company
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <46ata1$ibp@news2.cts.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: joseph.cts.com
Keywords: maintenance,equipment,buildings,fleet,HVAC,lighting,software
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #2
Followup: "Maintenance Management made easier"...a free Guide.

I Previously told of Free Guide for Maintenance Managers including
"Selection of Maintenance Software...easy as A-B-C"
Some replies asked "Maintenance of WHAT ?!"

The answer: This is helpful for maintenance of factories:equipment and
buildings (in fact,buildings of all kinds:offices,apartments too.)
Plus lighting, HVAC,fleets of vehicles. Excuse my obvious omission!
My Partner says the Web Home Page about all this will be ready soon.
For URL address when it IS ready...reply NOW...




From burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:31 EDT 1995
Article: 3113 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu (burdickw)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: propane heating with no electricity
Date: 20 Oct 1995 22:08:46 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4696le$hep@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <45kj9v$s8p@sundog.tiac.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dolphin.upenn.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3]

Craig R. Davis (crd@tiac.net) wrote:

: I'm building a cabin in a remote part of Maine, and would like to have :
thermostat-controlled propane heat - especially so I can set the
thermostat to : 50F between winter-weekend visits to avoid having to drain
all the water.  : Unfortunately, there is no electricity.  I've seen units
>from  ECOTHERM, and : the gas company recommended an EMPIRE (DV-215-7SG)
furnace with a : self-generating wall thermostat. 

: Does anyone have any experience with ECOTHERM or EMPIRE?  Are there other 
: manufacturers I should know about.  Any and all help would be appreciated.

Craig, I'm not familiar with ECOTHERM, but EMPIRE is an old name in 
gas-fired space heaters and floor furnaces.  They've been around for 
quite awhile.  If your gas company has recommended this unit, it should 
serve you well.

The self-generating thermostats are a very common solution in your 
situation.  I have seen them installed in many cabins in Maine and NH, 
even some which have electric service!  They operate on millivoltage 
generated by a thermocouple heated by the furnace's pilot light.  This is 
the same principle used in the pilot safety on most gas-fired equipment.  
It works very well.

BTW, if you leave the place unattended in winter, you should at least 
turn off the water service.  If the heat fails, you have no way of 
knowing it, and I have seen some _nasty_ floods caused by frozen and 
burst pipes!

Hope this is helpful.

			--Bill Burdick



From burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:31 EDT 1995
Article: 3114 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu (burdickw)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Double-venting radiators in one-pipe steam system
Date: 20 Oct 1995 22:27:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4697ov$hep@netnews.upenn.edu>
References: <16OCT95.14575223@sallie.wellesley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dolphin.upenn.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3]

MUR (mwolf@sallie.wellesley.edu) wrote: : A heating mechanic suggested
installing a second air vent in a one-pipe : steam radiator that takes too
long to heat up. This suggestion was made : after all of the usual
remedies were tried, and didn't work - the one vent : on the slow radiator
was set to the maximum, the other radiators in the bldg. : were set to the
minimum, the vent itself was checked, the pitch and the : sizing of the
piping seemed OK. : Have any of you double vented a one-pipe steam
radiator? Will adding : a second vent to a radiator decrease the
resistance to the cold air : escaping enough to make a difference? 

Double vents are a standard solution used in one-pipe steam systems where
one radiator won't heat quickly enough.  I've seen it done; I've also seen it
recommended in old textbooks.  It's a better idea than cutting back the
venting rate on all the other radiators! 

Have you checked the quickvent on the main serving this radiator?  If 
that is blocked, it can cause this problem.  Also, sometimes there isn't 
a quickvent installed close enough to the radiator.  The radiator vent 
can't be expected to vent the main as well as the radiator and riser, 
it's not big enough.

Speaking of which, another solution to your problem is to install a
quickvent of the type used at the ends of the mains on, or very near, the
slow radiator. 

Hope this is helpful!

				--Bill Burdick



From burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:33 EDT 1995
Article: 3115 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: burdickw@dolphin.upenn.edu (burdickw)
Newsgroups: misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Steam and hot (hydronic) water from same boiler?
Followup-To: misc.consumers.house,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Date: 20 Oct 1995 22:46:28 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
Lines: 68
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu misc.consumers.house:99645 alt.home.repair:11803 sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3115

Christopher Owens (cowens@bbn.com) wrote:
: I want to pull a hot water loop off a steam boiler, for the purpose of
: heating an indirect domestic hot water tank (and maybe for supplying a
: basement hot water radiator or baseboard while I'm at it.)  I believe
: this should work in theory, but my plumber is a bit skeptical.  I
: respect skepticism in someone who installs expensive, durable stuff in
: small spaces, so I'd like to hear from anyone else who's done what I'm
: proposing.

: Both Burnham and Superstor (a maker of indirect hot water heaters) say
: this should work fine, the only caveat being that boiler water in a
: steam system will be dirtier and more highly oxygenated than boiler
: water in a hydronic hot water system, so that we should use high-grade
: stuff like a bronze 3-piece circulator instead of a cartridge unit.

: As long as I'm running this hot water plumbing around, I'm thinking of
: adding a radiator or a baseboard in the basement, which would have a
: separate circulator.  I'm completely mystified about how to size the
: basement radiator (since it'll be carrying 215 degree water), and
: about how much extra capacity to size into the boiler to cover the
: indirect heater and the basement radiator.

: Anyone done any of this?

Chris--

I haven't done this, but I do have some thoughts based on other
experiences: 

1) Taking a hot water loop off the water in a steam boiler for use below 
the water line is a standard solution...has been done for years in 
steam-heated buildings where a basement is converted into useable space.  
The advice re dirtier, more corrosive water and high-quality components 
is sound.

2) There's no reason why you shouldn't run an indirect water heater off
it, either.  For years, steam boilers were installed this way before
modern "tankless" coils were invented.  The difference today is that they
use circulators or zone valves to control flow (thus temperature) and
usually the heating coil is enclosed in the storage tank.  In the old
days, it was gravity convection, no thermostatic control and separate
"side-arm" heaters! 

3) The indirect water heater manufacturer's literature will tell you how 
much boiler capacity to allow.

4) The load on the boiler from the basement radiator can be calculated by 
your plumber or any competent heating contractor or mechanical engineer.  
The 215 degree water is the same temperature as the steam, so the 
equivalent "square feet of radiation" is just the same as the other 
radiators in your house!  (1 SQ FT equivalent direct radiation, or EDR, 
gives off 240 btu when heated with 215 degree steam and mounted in a 70 
degree room).  Add 20% or so for piping and pickup factors to get the net 
boiler load.

If you're using an old radiator, see the ASHRAE Handbook on equipment for 
the calculations.  If you're using new baseboard or a convector, see the 
radiator manufacturer's instructions.

The more difficult question is "how big should the radiator be to heat 
the basement"?  Again, a competent heating contractor or engineer can 
answer this based on the conditions in the house.  Or you might look at 
the ASHRAE books and take a stab at it yourself, just for fun, but it would 
be a great deal simpler to get somebody who is familiar with the 
calculations to look at the job!

				--Bill Burdick



From dom@dgsys.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:34 EDT 1995
Article: 3116 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Dom LaVigne <dom@dgsys.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.hvac
Subject: HVAC-related media
Date: 19 Oct 1995 18:04:29 GMT
Organization: ARI
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4663ve$pa0@news.dgsys.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ari.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3116 alt.hvac:395

Besides Appliance Magazine's WebSite, do you know of other HVAC-related 
media sites on the Web?

Thanks for your help.


---Dom


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dom LaVigne 		  	Catch our Wave on ARI's CoolNet 	
Site Administrator -- ARI 	http://www.ari.org		
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




From Sarah.Wanamaker@sonoma.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:35 EDT 1995
Article: 3117 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!pirates!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!usenet
From: Sarah Wanamaker <Sarah.Wanamaker@sonoma.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,alt.home.repair,comp.home.automation
Subject: Re: Where are all the Solar Web Pages??
Date: 22 Oct 1995 01:05:27 GMT
Organization: Sonoma State University
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <46c5cn$cep@nic-nac.CSU.net>
References: <hbaker-2110950959530001@10.0.2.15>
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Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu sci.engr.heat-vent-ac:3117 alt.home.repair:11806 comp.home.automation:11639


A quick search of the net has turned up a lot of sites:


http://www.elitesoft.com/sci.hvac/hvac.html 

http://www.rt66.com/rbahm/ 

http://sun1.bham.ac.uk/thorntme/sunworld.html 

http://princeton.lance.colostate.edu:8080/Solar.html 

http://wwws.us.ohio-state.edu/~steen/sustain/ 

http://www.nando.net/prof/eco/int1.html 

http://lesosun1.epfl.ch/other_links.html 

http://www.netins.net/showcase/solarcatalog/ 


Sarah




From jnewby@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:36 EDT 1995
Article: 3118 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!paperboy.wellfleet.com!news3.near.net!inmet!news.bu.edu!decwrl!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: John Newby <jnewby@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ??Gas Stoves/ovens that act as heaters??
Date: 21 Oct 1995 16:33:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <46b7cp$kpl@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <axxxion.785.0005C565@tiac.net>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Oct 21  9:33:29 AM PDT 1995
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 32bit)
To: axxxion@tiac.net

axxxion@tiac.net wrote:
>Hi,
>
>	I have this old fashioned oven/stove (1949) that also has attached to it a 
>kerosine heater(burns some type of log?). My question is: is there such a 
>thing as a modern day oven/stove that only uses gas that does the same thing? 
>Also heats the room.
>
>
>			Your comments most appreciated,
>
>				Ron
There is the British "AGA" stove, and the Swedish "ESSE".  I know that 
the AGA is imported here, but I'm not sure about the ESSE.

I'm not up to date with the AGA in the last 10 years, but lived with 
earlier versions for 30 years or so.  There were two basic models - a 
"2 door" (warm and hot ovens - with two covered hotplates on top) and 
a "3 door" (above plus a "plate warming compartment" and a top 
uncovered warm plate).  Each version contains a hot water coil around 
the firebox for domestic hot water heating, and there also used to be 
a companion boiler that mounted adjacent to the cooker assembly for 
full scale hot water heat.

Units are all cast iron construction and last for many years - a good 
investment, but comparably expensive.

Original units were for solid fuel but oil (vaporizing burner) and gas 
versions are now available.

Cooking on these is absolutely WONDERFUL, but very different from gas 
or electricity.  Special utensils are needed to take benefit of their 
features.

Drawbacks - price, space (these things are big), and a hot kitchen in 
summer(!).

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!

John N.





From mheat@travel-net.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:38 EDT 1995
Article: 3119 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!ukma!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.interlog.com!io.org!usenet
From: mheat@travel-net.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Source for low pressure sensors?
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:37:33 GMT
Organization: Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363 3783)
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <46e6o7$eh2@ionews.io.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.159.254.25
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

I am looking for a source for pressure sensors in  the 1 to 50 pascal
range, suitable for measuring stack effect in houses.  Does anybody
know of any? 

Thanks
Norbert Senf (Masonry Stove Builders)
email mheat@travel-net.com



From kenacks@delphi.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:39 EDT 1995
Article: 3120 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Ken Acks <kenacks@delphi.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Free Newsletters Available--EDV&CBN
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 95 23:33:02 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5DJHA1O.kenacks@delphi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com

The first three issues (Summer, 1994 through Winter, 1995) of
a newsletter entitled

"ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE VALUATION AND COST BENEFIT NEWS"

are available free of charge. Please send

Name________________________________________________
Organization________________________________________
Street Address______________________________________
City, State, County, Zip____________________________
e-mail address______________________________________
ASCII__________    BINARY_____________

to kenacks@delphi.com call (516) 897-9728, or fax (516) 897-9185

Please indicate if you would like the ascii text version (the
default--more easily read but less visually appealing)
or a uuencoded (binary) wordperfect version.


From hank@netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:41 EDT 1995
Article: 3121 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: hank@netcom.com (Hank Roberts)
Subject: Replacing an ancient gas floor furnace with ... what?
Message-ID: <hankDGvq0C.KEA@netcom.com>
Summary: repair, or replace?
Keywords: floor furnace gas
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 02:09:48 GMT
Lines: 18
Sender: hank@netcom14.netcom.com


Is there any stock replacement for the old low-efficiency gas floor
furnace -- the metal box under the floor, with a simple firebox?

With our Mediterranean climate it's an adequate heater, and the
firebox hasn't cracked yet so it hasn't started dumping combustion
products into the house (yes, I did get a monoxide detector!).

But it's maybe 20% efficient, and has no safety at all on the gas valve
(if the pilot goes out it'll keep dumping gas into the system) and
the valve's startedto leak a bit -- under the box where it does no harm
and the gas goes up the flue, but time to either repair or replace.

Does anything made nowadays go into the same sort of space and position,
and just send hot air up through the existing floor grating?

Because that's all we need -- the same sort of heat supply, but from
a more efficient burner, if such is available.


From probson@ptbo.igs.net Tue Oct 24 21:32:43 EDT 1995
Article: 3122 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: probson@ptbo.igs.net (Peter Robson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Comfort-Aire
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 07:15:48 GMT
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NNTP-Posting-Host: probson.ptbo.igs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

Literature lost for a heatpump electric furnace combination by
Comfort-Aire.  A company lable with Aitons Equipment Ltd Mississauga
appears on the unit.

Any leads to these two names would be appreciated.

Peter



From jnewby@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:44 EDT 1995
Article: 3123 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: John Newby <jnewby@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Bryant Plus 90 FA furnace problem.  HELP!
Date: 21 Oct 1995 17:04:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <46b971$mcc@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <SMCARLSON.37.001055A0@MMM.COM>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Oct 21 10:04:33 AM PDT 1995
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 32bit)
To: smcarlson@mmm.com

Steve, I have no specific experience with this furnace, so I'm going 
to comment based only on "typical combustion engineering priciples" in 
the hope that I may give you some helpful clues.

I suspect that the phenomenum you describe is related to a sensitivity 
of the unit to air/fuel ratio.

The resistance to flow of outlet flue and the inlet air duct (if any) 
systems will determine how much combustion air flows through the unit 
(in conjunction with the inlet air and outlet flue gas temperatures).

You described removing the inlet duct, or partially covering the inlet 
end of the pipe - in both those cases you altered the amount of oxygen 
being delivered to the combustion chamber (probably lowering it in 
both cases - obviously so in the second instance, and I suspect also 
in the first by supplying warmer air (less dense) at a lower overall 
differential pressure than when the inlet duct was connected).

It is quite typical for a combustion process to sensitive to the 
amount of O2 supplied - and normally the combustion becomes "harsher" 
with increasing excess of oxygen supplied to the flame.

An interesting experiment would be to get hold of a combustion product 
analyzer and determine the amount of O2 in the exhaust gas when the 
unit is in "quiet" mode.  Then connect up the inlet duct that you need 
and analyze again.  You could then try changing the resistance of the 
inlet duct to bring the combustion product analysis back to the "quiet 
mode" level if it has changed (increase the resistance of there's more 
O2, for instance).  If it hasn't changed then air flow isn't the 
problem and you've got some kind of harmonic resonance generated by 
the flame that is exacerbated by the inlet ducting shape or volume - 
you could try "tuning" that out by physical changes to the inlet 
ducting run.

There's a major caveat here - you must be sure that the exhaust gas 
analysis falls within the manufacturer's specs.  You must not reduce 
the O2 supply to the point that there is any chance of generation of 
excessive CO in the exhaust gas.  As domestic units must operate 
across a wide range of installation and ambient conditions there's 
usually a fairly wide margin built in, but you must be aware of this 
potentially serious problem - WHICH COULD HAVE LIFE THREATENING 
RESULTS.

One other point comes to mind - another poster has suggested gas 
pressure adjustment - which would, of course adjust the gas flow, 
rather than the air flow.  My suggestion would be that you check that 
the gas flow is at (or below) the manufacturer's specified limits 
before you do anything else.  He should be able to tell you the 
correct setting pressure.

Hope you may find something helpful here.  Please exercise caution in 
any work you do on this problem to ensure that you do not place 
anybody at risk.

John N.
     



From seanjg@marlowe.umd.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:46 EDT 1995
Article: 3124 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!marlowe.umd.edu!seanjg
From: seanjg@marlowe.umd.edu (Gallagher - Sean J.)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Un-Vented Gas Heaters
Date: 23 Oct 1995 15:08:45 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <46gb5t$t5b@hecate.umd.edu>
References: <464ip9$8bq@castle.nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: marlowe.umd.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1]

David Kasper (project@nando.net) wrote:
: I have been looking for a propane gas heater for a large 600 square 
: foot room.  I was surprised to find that there are un-vented heaters 
: being sold for indoor use.  I talked with a sales rep at the 
: Comfort-Glo company regarding their un-vented models.  He assured 
: me that carbon monoxide from the heaters is negligible, that they are 
: 99% efficient, and perfectly acceptable and legal for indoor use.  I 
: later found out, however, that un-vented heaters are illegal to install in : bedrooms in North Carolina, which makes me think that they 
are not 
: completely safe.  Should they be used at all?  How safe are they?  Is 
: there an inexpensive source for new or used gas heaters?

Unvented combustion devices like a space heater (kerosene or propane) 
are potentially very hazardous due to the products of combustion that are 
allowed to remaining inside.  The tighter the space, in terms of 
inflitration, the more you are flurting with a deadly hazard.  In 
addition, these devices are very good at converting oxygen to CO2 and 
even worse, to CO.  As matter of fact, that is what they are designed to 
do (convert O2 to CO2 to get heat).  I would never consider using one in 
a house as a permanent heating source.  When ever you burn any 
hydrocarbon, you are using up O2 and producing CO2 and some CO.  Too much 
CO2 and not enough O2 produces DEATH even when there isn't any CO.  CO 
can make only make it worse. 

If people are going to be in there, either use a propane (or other fuel) 
heater with 
its flue gases vented or a heat pump, if you want cheap first costs and high 
operating costs, use electric resistance.  

Sean


From nugie@iafrica.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:47 EDT 1995
Article: 3125 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.netins.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.bluesky.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!ticsa.com!cstatd.cstat.co.za!usenet
From: JP Barnard <nugie@iafrica.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Engineering Forum on MSN
Date: 21 Oct 1995 21:18:43 GMT
Organization: Internet Africa
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <46bo3j$q1l@grovel.iafrica.com>
References: <00009605+000004c4@msn.com>
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To: Mark_FrmMgr@msn.com

Hi

Yup, I certainly am interested in such a forum. In fact I am 
working as system engineer on an information management system 
at the university of stellenbosch in South Africa in which a 
Industrial Engineering forum will exist eventually (next year 
this time).

I use win95 (love it), but another service provider. Can I 
still get through to your forum?

Kind regards.

-- 
JP Barnard, Stellenbosch, South Africa
********************************************
"I neither live for the sake of another man,
nor do I expect another to live for mine"
                    Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
********************************************




From bosomworthp@pwgsc.gc.ca Tue Oct 24 21:32:48 EDT 1995
Article: 3126 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: Peter Bosomworth <bosomworthp@pwgsc.gc.ca>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Variable Pulley
Date: 23 Oct 1995 15:47:10 GMT
Organization: PWGSC
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <46gddv$5kg@piper.Pwc-Tpc.ca>
References: <43sg8a$5ur$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com> <46ef7t$56b@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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I have seen much the same device controlling the speed of a supply and return fan on 
a VAV air handling system, one for each fan. There was a track that the motor would 
run back and forth on. A small motor would position the drive motor on the track. 
The positioning motor got a control signal from an electronic controller with input 
>from  the building static and supply air velocity sensors. 

The system worked well, however it was removed and a VSD installed, when a BAS was 
installed for the building control system.

Peter Bosomworth
PWGSC
202-1166 Alberni St.
Vancouver BC
V6E 3W5
bosomworthp@pwgsc.gc.ca



From lockr@ultratech.net Tue Oct 24 21:32:49 EDT 1995
Article: 3127 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!worldlinx.com!newspeak.ultratech.net!pm01-17
From: lockr@ultratech.net (Lockman M. Robertson)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Mammoth Ground Source Heat Pump Problems
Date: 23 Oct 1995 09:58:33 GMT
Organization: Lockman M. Robertson
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <46fp09$ls0@newspeak.ultratech.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm01-17.ultratech.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #3

Is anyone having problems with ground source heat pumps from Mammoth?

I have a 64,000 BTU/hr that is eating up contactors, and when it starts, the 
lights dim down very badly.  The system is on a 400 amp service and the static 
voltage runs between 241 - 245 vac, and is supplied on its own transformer at 
the pole.

The compressor exhibits excess sweating at the entrance to the shell (tecumseh 
reciprocating lo side shell), and has pinging associated with the return of 
liquid to the crankcase.  The manufacturer's spec is 8 deg. F. superheat, and 
it is bang on the money.  If I set the valve to 15 deg. f. superheat, the 
system settles out, and sweating dissappears.  Amperage drops, and I seem to 
get additional sensible output.

The contactor appears to be too small to handle the inrush, and it lives about 
 three months.

Any comments?


From xref@daka.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:52 EDT 1995
Article: 3128 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: xref@daka.com
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: HVAC-related media
Date: 21 Oct 1995 23:01:12 GMT
Organization: Access One
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <46bu3o$qv8@news.accessone.com>
References: <4663ve$pa0@news.dgsys.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.250.144.81
X-Newsreader: SPRY News 3.03 (SPRY, Inc.)

>   Dom LaVigne <dom@dgsys.com> writes:
>  Besides Appliance Magazine's WebSite, do you know of other HVAC-related 
>  media sites on the Web?
>  
>  Thanks for your help.
>  
>  
>  ---Dom
>  
>  
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Dom LaVigne 		  	Catch our Wave on ARI's CoolNet 	
>  Site Administrator -- ARI 	http://www.ari.org		
>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  
>  
>  
>>>>

The XREF "HVAC" Encyclopedia is at:

http://www.daka.com/xref/xrefhome.htm

Joseph Placz, Publisher
XREF Publishing Co.
(360) 385-4279
XREF@DAKA.COM



From stevele@eskimo.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:53 EDT 1995
Article: 3129 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!eskimo!news
From: stevele@eskimo.com (Steve )
Subject: Re: Electrostatic vs Electronic air cleaner in duct system
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tia1.eskimo.com
Message-ID: <DGxFMD.HC5@eskimo.com>
Sender: news@eskimo.com (News User Id)
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:22:22 GMT
Lines: 31

mkklein@cinti.net (Matthew Klein) wrote:

>On 13 Oct 1995 20:27:16 -0700

>Whether he sells electronic air cleaners or not, he is absolutely
>right about the electrostatic filters not being as effective as the
>electronic.  Testing according to the ASHRAE dust spot test have shown
>that the electrostatics have an efficiency of less than 20% while the
>electronics have efficeincies greater than 70%.  If you don't believe
>these tests, which were performed by independent labs, then watch what
>happens with the crud buildup in your system over the next 10 years.
>BTW, I don't sell filters; but I am active on the ASHRAE technical
>committee that is concerned with filtration.
>Matthew Klein, PE
>Indoor Air Quality Solutions

The difference you inidicated Mathew is correct, however electronic
air cleaners (electrostatic two stage preciptitors) are tested with
(ASHRAE 52-76) the initial or average atmospheric dust spot
method,(this is the ONLY method used for EAC's) while electrostatics
are tested using the weight arrestance method (ie: how much weight can
they hold) (ASHRAE 52-76) , this not allowing for a true comparison.
EAC's can not be tested with the arrestance test.  An electrostatic in
field use will very seldom come close to the rated performance since
they require correct air veleocity and low humidity accorss the face
of the surface area to get the "static effect".

Steve Lewellen  (stevele@eskimo.com)





From VVJD78A@prodigy.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:55 EDT 1995
Article: 3130 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: VVJD78A@prodigy.com (John Ottaviano)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: AC & Heating Salesperson Wanted
Date: 22 Oct 1995 03:58:56 GMT
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SUBJECT: Help Wanted - AC & Heating Sales, LI, NY 
    Established (66 year old) Nassau County, NY HVAC company is seeking a 
bright, motivated person to fill position in residential and light 
commercial HVAC sales and sales management.  Successful candidate must 
have a proven track record and will receive competitive base salary plus 
commission, car allowance, health benefits, pension plan and annuity.  
Previous experience in contracting sales and computer skills are a plus.

Send resume via fax to 516-621-2636 or Email us at VVJD78A@prodigy.com    




From tmethod@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:32:56 EDT 1995
Article: 3131 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Variable Pulley
Date: 22 Oct 1995 18:05:49 -0400
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I spotted an interesting device on a printing press recently that I
thought might have application to our industry. It was a spring-loaded
variable drive pulley. The speed of the press was adjusted by moving the
drive motor. Slack in the belt was taken up by the closing of the pulley,
thereby speeding up the press. Increasing belt tension caused the pulley
to open, thus slowing down the press. 

Has anyone ever seen this before? What would be the applications in our
industry? What would be the advantages/disadvantages?

What do YOU think?

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net Tue Oct 24 21:32:57 EDT 1995
Article: 3132 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net (James Storm)
Subject: Re: testing oil miscibility/oil return
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In article <46amuk$h1q@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, ghg@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu 
says...
>
>For all you experts out there on oil return in R-12 low temp systems.
>
>I built a refrigeration test stand out of a 2-ton med temp R-12
>semi-hermetic Copeland compressor.  The goal is to try to force
>oil logging (poor oil return) to occur.
>
(snip)

I admire your test stand but I don't think you should use R-12 as your 
test refrigerant. Pick some of the newer refrigs. and see if what the 
manufactures are telling us about oil return and old oils are true. You 
might open a few eyes...;)
                       Stormy (jstorm@postoffice.ptd.net)



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:58 EDT 1995
Article: 3133 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Source for low pressure sensors?
Date: 23 Oct 1995 02:20:02 -0400
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<mheat@travel-net.com> wrote:

>I am looking for a source for pressure sensors in  the 1 to 50 pascal
>range, suitable for measuring stack effect in houses.  Does anybody
>know of any? 

I'd be interested to know what you find out. Also, does anyone know of
some easy way to measure airflows below 200 fpm? A temperature sensor
and a resistor inside a ping-pong ball?

National Semiconductor at 2900 Semiconductor Drive/Santa Clara, CA 95051,
(408) 737-5000, used to make interesting pressure sensor ICs. Maybe they
could tell you if someone uses them in a pressure sensor instrument. Grainger
part numbers 6T604 (Dwyer, 475-1AV, $342), 3T403 (Alnor 530, $546) and
3T295 (Dwyer/Magnehelic 2000-00AV, 0-0.25" H20, $56.20) look interesting. 

BTW, I wonder if your stoves use triple wall continuous airflow all-fuel
fluepipe, with outside air flowing down between the outer and middle pipe,
as an air-air heat exchanger?

Nick



From nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu Tue Oct 24 21:32:59 EDT 1995
Article: 3134 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Today's high, in the solar attic
Date: 24 Oct 1995 07:36:13 -0400
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Andrew McKegney  <sunone@pathcom.com> wrote:
 
>If your attic has any wood , paper or non-fireproofed wood fibers in it 
>you could create a problem for yourself.

It has all that stuff. Wide pine floorboards, cedar shingles on the north
side, dacron ropes around the rafters, holding up the second floor, etc.

>If these materials are exposed to high temperatures for long periods of time,
>they develop phyric (?) compounds that can eaisly catch fire.

I wonder how high these high temperatures have to be? It seems unlikely to me
that the attic will catch fire, since it has little insulation. That would be
interesting, tho. A pyric victory, in solar air heater design. I'd worry more
if this were a concentrating system. Howard Reichmuth, P.E., says he almost
melted a pair of good rubber boots, by accidentally standing in the line
focus of his parabolic concentrating greenhouse, 20 years ago. His advice:
"Don't stand in the focus!" 

The attic will have some cooling, eventually, in the form of blowing some
of the warm air down to the rest of the stone house, to store heat in the
stone walls, surrounded by foam insulation on the outside.

>This is why the idea of building solar panels of wood went up in flames.
>Literally.

Sounds like suburban folklore to me. Altho I could imagine that happening in
a well-insulated, stagnated, liquid solar collector, if the pump failed. That
kind of collector is expensive and goes on the roof, in the wind and the snow,
with antifreeze and heat exchangers and complicated control panels. I'm not
very interested in those things. If I insulated it _really_ well, perhaps
my attic could use some 180 F passive vent openers to open the doors under the
turbine vents, if the temperature gets too high up there. Solar Components
121 Valley Street/Manchester, NH 03103-6211 $56 #13040 Solarvents are said to
start opening at 188 F and be fully open at 212 F, altho the last one I tried
20 years ago didn't work very well. Perhaps you are not supposed to boil them
long in a pot full of water on the stove. Jade Mountain (800) 442-1972 sells
$54 #FC115 Thermofor vents, and Steve Troy says they work well, lifting 15
pounds 15", but the catalog says "select a temperature between 55-85 degrees." 

BTW, I've decided to hang a $70, 32' x 16' layer of 80% greenhouse shadecloth
on top of the transparent part of the attic next summer, using a couple of
pulleys and ropes. This should make the attic a lot cooler, and make the
clear, corrugated, polycarbonate glazing last a lot longer. It won't interfere
with the view that much. I had it hanging over the whole south front wall
of the house this summer, and the worst part was the moire pattern it made
as I looked through the screened part of the windows from the inside. From
the outside, it just looked black. A new look in houses. Trendy, perhaps.

>Better consult your local fire department before you go much further.

I don't think they know much about this sort of thing. I gave them a copy
of my solar closet paper a while ago, and suggested that they modify their
firehouse accordingly. The firehouse has a very nice white stucco south-facing
wall, with no windows, but I don't see any changes yet. I suspect they don't
even know about Ohm's law for heatflow. The south wall of the Ursinus College
building next to the firehouse is completely shaded by big evergreens close 
to the wall, and it has a lovely porch upstairs that is crying out to be
glazed in, after the evergreens are cut down, but that hasn't happened either.
I guess Ursinus College doesn't know much about Ohm's law for heatflow either. 

>A point to consider. Unless you have something to store the heat in, 
>you'd be better off installing a skylight directly into the living space. 

Sounds like a good idea for daylighting, perhaps with a reflective sunscoop,
aimed south, but I'd think one would want a large amount of vertical glazing
to collect low-angle winter sun, and one needs some way to avoid having all
the house heat disappear out the glazing at night, or during periods of
cloudy weather.

>The mass in the living space will absorb some of the heat...

Indeed it will. We should build more stone houses, surrounded by polyurethane
foam. There was one described in a recent Mother Earth News, built by two
brothers with wheelbarrows--13 million pounds of rocks, including the stone
roof, but they forgot the foam on the outside. Concrete furniture also helps,
in ordinary houses. 

>Remember maximize the insulation before trying to use the insolation!

Perhaps someone should tell David Boyer about that. His 2,000 ft^2 commercial
greenhouse in Sassamansville, PA is doing fine at the moment, with a single
layer of R0.7 polyethylene greenhouse film surrounding a lot of poinsettias,
which are sitting on top of 200 55 gallon drums full of water. He doesn't seem
worried about fire, either. I think he understands Ohm's law for heatflow.

Thank you for your concern, Andy.

Nick



From petere@mitre.org Tue Oct 24 21:33:00 EDT 1995
Article: 3135 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: petere@mitre.org (Peter D. Engels)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: ISO vented gas room heater
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 08:42:39 -0400
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In article <46hiil$fnd@clarknet.clark.net>, sonet@clark.net wrote:



> I am looking for a small ( around 20,000 BTU? ) vented gas heater to do
the job, and 
> it would be easiest if it was vented through the wall, preferably using
outside air for combustion,
> in the same way that many pellet stoves are done.
> 
> Any suggestions as far as manufacturers, distributors, or retail
sources?  So far, I've struck out 
> with the gas company as well as several plumbing supply houses in the area.

The Rinnai room heater is a propane-fired space heater that is vented and
draws in outside air.  It is widely available at oil and gas suppliers in
Northern New England.  One place closer to you that carries them is:
 
 Dan McCabe's Creative Carpentry Inc.
153 North St.
Lexington, MA
617-862-5405

Call them to see if it can be converted to runm off natural gas.

-- 
Pete


From wpb5@psu.edu Tue Oct 24 21:33:02 EDT 1995
Article: 3136 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Off-Peak A/C with Ice Storage?
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 00:13:55 GMT
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William Stewart wrote:

>wpb5@psu.edu (William Bahnfleth) wrote:

>>Quote from Lennox "TES Update" dated January, 1995:

>>"The multiple-patented Lennox Cool Thermal Energy Storage (CTES) concept was 
>>developed to reduce on-peak electric power demand due to air conditioning...

>>To meet these objectives, the Lennox CTES concept is an _all_DX_ 
>>refrigerant-based design (no secondary circulating fluids) that integrates 
>>with the HVAC system refrigeration circuit...

>>This is the equipment I mentioned seeing at the equipment show in Chicago in 
>>January.  As I stated previously, the problem with residential storage is that 
>>most rate structures don't include demand charges.  Therefore, without utility 
>>incentives to prop up the technology, it has no economic advantage over less 
>>expensive conventional systems.

>What about the occurrence of lower temperatures at night?  Wouldn't this provide 
>an opportunity to take advantage of lower ambient temperatures?  Of course, extra 
>losses have to be taken into account.  Does Lennox reference any studies or 
>estimates?

I don't know about this particular system, but prior studies I've read 
indicate that you would be doing well to break even on energy consumption 
between daytime air-cooled DX at "conventional" supply temperature and night 
ice making duty with a lower evaporator temperature offsetting the benefit of 
lower condensing temperature.

The Lennox bulletin I have gives an example in which a conventional system 
consumes 19,300 kWh during "summer" operation (whatever that means) while 
their TES unit consumes 20,942 kWh (8.5% more).  No other studies are 
mentioned, published or otherwise.

I suggest you contact Lennox in Dallas if you are interested in pursuing this 
further.  Incidentally, I haven't seen much mention of this product since the 
show, so I have no idea whether it is having any success in the market.

Bill Bahnfleth

--
William P. Bahnfleth
Department of Architectural Engineering
Penn State University-University Park
wpb5@psu.edu


From tmethod@aol.com Tue Oct 24 21:33:03 EDT 1995
Article: 3137 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: tmethod@aol.com (TMETHOD)
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: Re: Strange HVAC design
Date: 22 Oct 1995 20:11:45 -0400
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In article <467970$gtg@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, richbyrd@ix.netcom.com
(Richard Byrd) writes:

>Thanks Gary.  The construction matches the prints; return plenum and
>all.  They say the shafts are exhausts.

Are there other exhausts for the building? Are bathrooms, kitchens (or
other exhausts) dumping into the shafts?

>Wouldn't it be optimum to turn the shafts into outside air intakes by
>putting a fan at the top of the shaft? Should prevent backflow whether
>the A/C's are running or not, correct (if fan is sized right)?
>
>

The (squirrel cage type) fan would have to be large enough to provide a
slightly positive static pressure with all A/C systems running (hot
weather). This might create a cold draft problem with all A/C systems off
(cold weather). Maybe with static pressure controls...

Gary

================================================
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
     -Albert Einstein-

Gary R. Lloyd CMS
TECH Method Training
HVACR Trouble Shooting Books/Software
Tel 313-671-0188  Fax 313-676-9262


From zimavad@zimavad.seanet.com Tue Oct 24 21:33:04 EDT 1995
Article: 3138 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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From: "Vadim N. Zima" <zimavad@zimavad.seanet.com>
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
Subject: (no subject)
Date: 24 Oct 1995 21:17:46 GMT
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I am looking for Copeland compressors phone number. Please advise.

-- 
========================================================================
Vadim N. ZIMA				Lynnwood, WA U.S.A.
Certified Russian 			206.774.0489
Translator/Interpreter			206.775.1063 (fax)
					zimavad@zimavad.seanet.com




