Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac

From: [email-masked] (JWDUDE2154)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 18:34:43 -0400

>>Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:59:36 GMT
>>Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

>>That's what it looks like now for the porch; while on vacation in Greece
>>I saw many of these 'splits'. What would be the smallest one can buy in
>>terms of costs/capacity?. A small window unit is $300-400, would a mini
>>split be twice that? I don't mind that.... 

The smallest one you can get is 6,000 BTUH i believe. I do not sell enough
of them to give you a cost off the top of my head.

>>>I would use a zone control between your house and basement. It will be
>>the
>>>only thing that can heat one space then turn around and cool another.

>>Assuming the thermostat gives a few minutes of delay between switching!
>>(or it is just an urban legend that you have to wait X mins between
>>switching from heat back/to cool?)

There will be a small time delay. The a/c system needs to sit for 5
minutes before restarting. You should not short cycle it. To go from one
to another will not take that long. Depends on who's controls we are
discussing.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (JWDUDE2154)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 01:32:04 -0400

If you are worried about noise and astetics on the porch I would recommend
a mini-split system. But you are throwing in that you want it cheap and a
mini-split is anything but cheap. Take a look at it, it may be your
answer.

I would use a zone control between your house and basement. It will be the
only thing that can heat one space then turn around and cool another.

Jim Lightbody CM
Houston, Texas
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Date: 1 Jun 1995 16:14:56 GMT

Well, folks, it's good to see the news group in action.  I have a rather
interesting question out, which has caused stress in several HVAC
contractors; I did not get much help in misc.consumers.house, so here it
goes again with even more details...

Existing house/system:

3100 sq ft 2 story custom house; gas heat (Trane XL90), SEER 12 A/C.
New construction. 700 sq ft basement with a couple of A/C vents,
150 sq ft screened porch on concrete foundation attached to house.

What do i plan to do:

finish around 600 ft in the basement (actually 300 is already finished,
insulated, carpeted, w/2 vents, etc). Also enclose the porch using glass
windows/tile/etc to match the rest of the house.

Problems:

There are two problems, one related to the basement and one related to
the porch. 

o The porch needs to be heated and cooled, preferrably separate from the 
  house. Unfortunately, no easy way to route ducts from the existing HVAC
  (even during construction it was not feasible w/o major expense). We 
  thought about using a window A/C unit but it doesn't look appropriate in
  the neighborhood (nice houses close to each other) plus they're usually
  too noisy. 

o The basement is even more entertaining. During the winter months with the
  HVAC vents open it maintains a pretty decent 68 degrees or so since the
  furnace is running a lot (Midwest) . The problem hits during spring and 
  fall, where the heating more or less is intermittent and the place dips
  to 62-63 degrees. Running the fan constantly maybe raises it a degree or
  two, but far below the 72 or so we're accustomed to in the rest of the
  house. 

  Even worse, there are many days where the house needs to be cooled and
  the basement HEATED :-), i.e. when it's around 80 degrees and humid
  outside, we run the AC (mostly to get rid of the moisture) and the 
  basement is FROZEN. I'm sure that if we close the vents it will fix it
  but then we have the humidity to deal with, and since I plan on locating
  lots of electronics there, it has to be dealt with somehow.

  Keep in mind the basement is insulated on the inside with
  normal 2x4's and bats... I guess it just is that it is
  hard to fight the thermal mass of these tons of concrete.
  
The basement and porch need to have their own thermostats since we
don't use them all the time. The rest of the house is on a programmable
thermostat.

Solutions considered so far:

o Separate window A/C / heat unit for porch. The cheaper ones ($500
  or less) are too noisy and bulky and just don't fit with the rest of
  the house. Does not help with the basement much.

o A split system A/C / heat system for porch (one part outside with
  some shrubs to hide it, one inside). Too expensive (maybe $1,000).
  Does not help with the basement much.

o Baseboard electric heat for basement. Unacceptable for many reasons
  (would like something that circulates air thru an air cleaner and
  central dehumidifier)

o Make the basement a zone of the house with its own zone controls
  (the house does NOT currently have zoned system as it is a very 
  open design that resists zoning :-)). This would add a couple motorized
  baffles in the basement (one for house, one for basement) and two
  wired together thermostats, one in the house, one in the basement.
  I was quoted $2,000 for it, and it still does not solve the porch
  A/C problem. 

o Add a small, apartment sized heat pump JUST for the basement and
  porch. In the winter months, the heat pump would barely work to 
  boost the gas HVAC. In fall and spring, the heat pump would be used
  to heat the basement from 62-63 to around 72-73. In the summer,
  we could switch (manually or automatically) the system to ONLY cool
  the porch. I don't really anticipate HEATING the porch but that 
  could be done in the fall/spring months via the heating pump and 
  a couple switches.

An easy answer could be option #4 along with a GOOD window AC unit,
assuming I can locate an unobtrusive, quiet, inexpensive system. It
still does not solve the 'cool upstairs, heat downstairs :-)' issue.
I think I could live with it, however, mostly by recirculating
house air (74-75 degrees) thru the basement in such days.

The last option adds yet another system, plumbing, etc, which is not
desirable. 

So, wise HVAC men/women, what should I do? Does it really take $2K for
a few motorized baffles and two thermostats? are there decent, quiet,
inexpensive, small window AC/heat units? should I move? I don't mind
spending the money but would REALLY like to get something that works.

(and before stating the obvious, i.e why was this not done while the
house was built 2 years ago, I discussed it with the builder and HVAC
contractor and both told me that the heating system should be enough
to heat the extra 700 sq ft in the basement. Of course, they were
right. The problem is when the heater is NOT running :-)). No problems
in running vents, etc as the rest of the house is on crawl space with
excellent access, and basement is 9 1/2 feet ceilings and plenty of
ways to run pipes). 

Any wisdom will be appreciated... Thank you in advance!

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                  Kokomo, IN 46904   (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools                 [email-masked]
Delco Electronics Corporation             "Reading, 'Rithmetic, and Readnews"

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From: [email-masked] (Scott Sehlhorst)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 14:32:14

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>{snip}
>{snip}
>{snip}
>{snip}

I think you can find a cheap (<$300) window AC unit for the porch, and
then enclose it in a box, with vents for inlet air (from porch) and 
output of conditioned air (to porch), and a duct for exhaust (heated)
air to the outdoors.  You could use a little sheet metal and a couple
of register vents to make it 'socially acceptable'/visually appealing.
You could also put some acoustic foam baffles on the inner walls of the
box to minimize noise from the compressor.  You'll be surprised how
effective they are.

You could run a duct from a floor register or two in the house to the
basement, terminating in a vent or two.  Then put a fan into the line
to force convection.  A squirrel cage fan may provide the airflow you
need.  Get a cheap electric heat thermostat and hook it up to the fan.
You may want to make sure that the thermostat has a 'deadband' in 
temperature, to prevent the fan from short cycling.  

You may need to be clever in locating the output of the return duct,
to prevent a cold breeze from blowing in your upstairs.  Maybe a return
duct into the closet where you keep your water heater, or behind the
refridgerator, or whatever.

This is of course the poor man's solution, more elegant suggestions will
follow from those more experienced.

Scott "Also a frugal gourmet" Sehlhorst

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From: [email-masked] (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:59:36 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,

Spiros

---

From: [email-masked] (Charles Ball)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 14:16:33 GMT

Subject: Re: Help me with basement heat/ac
Newsgroups: sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
References: <[email-masked]>
Distribution: usa
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

: Existing house/system:

: 3100 sq ft 2 story custom house; gas heat (Trane XL90), SEER 12 A/C.
: New construction. 700 sq ft basement with a couple of A/C vents,
: 150 sq ft screened porch on concrete foundation attached to house.

...

:   Even worse, there are many days where the house needs to be cooled and
:   the basement HEATED :-), i.e. when it's around 80 degrees and humid
:   outside, we run the AC (mostly to get rid of the moisture) and the 
:   basement is FROZEN. I'm sure that if we close the vents it will fix it
:   but then we have the humidity to deal with, and since I plan on locating
:   lots of electronics there, it has to be dealt with somehow.

Have you considered reconfiguring your return(s) to open into the basement
and drawing an equivalent quantity of return air from the basement? This will
mix (warmer) air from upper floors into the basement and use the cooler air
to some advantage for the rest of the house.  If you still need to run the
AC/dehumidifier, the basement air should have higher relative humidity and 
therefore result in more moisture removed per kwH.

Charles Ball