========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 22:59:53 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Ref:Re: Midway Survivor Recovered CArl, I guess you could say that the SBD-2 was on post-deployment training because it survived Midway but not a rookie pilot on Lake Michigan! :-) From Rohwer & Hummelchen's *Chronology of the War at Sea*: TF.11 (Rear Admiral Brown) consisting of the carrier Lexington, the cruisers Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Pensacola, and San Francisco and the destroyers (Desron 1) Phelps, Clark, Patterson, Dewey, MacDonough, Hull, Aylwin, Dale, Bagley, and Drayton, joins TF.17 (REar Admiral Fletcher), which comprises the carrier Yorktown and tjhe destroyers Russell and Walke (on March 6), to make a raid on Japanese landing points from S of the Papuan Peninsula. On 10 March the two carriers fly off 104 aircraft which attack the harbors over the Owen Stanley Mountains: the armed merchant cruiser cruiser Kongo Maru and the transport Yokohama Maru (6143 tons) are sunk and teh cruiser Yubari, the minelayer Tsugaru, the destroyers Asanagi and Yunagi, two transports and two auxiliary ships are damaged. The transport Tenryu Maru (6843 tons) has to be beached after being hit. End quote All typos are mine. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:11:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: B Vasilion - USAAF Units Yesterday, Bill Basilion asked about two USAAF units in World War II. I cannot communicate directly with you Bill so let me give you what I have via this list. You said, "I need information on the 50th Troop Carrier Wing out of Wright Field at around 1938 1939." The 50th Transport Wing was not activated until Jan 41; the transport unit at Patterson Field, Ohio during this time was the 10th Transport Group; I have included a brief history of both units. Your second question was "then later the 47th Fighter Squadron out of Iwo Jima when they were I believe flying P-51 or some P-38's." I have included everything I can find about the 47th. 50th TRANSPORT/TROOP CARRIER WING --------------------------------- The 50th Transport Wing was constitued on 8 Jan 41 and activated 14 Jan 41 at Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio assigned to Office, Chief of the Air Corps. ( NOTE: Wright Field and Patterson Field were merged to become Wright-Patterson AFB on 13 Jan 48.) The subordinate units of the wing transported personnel, supplies and material in the US, Alaska and the Caribbean area between 1941 and 1944. Numerous groups were assigned for training or operations during this period. On 30 Apr 42, the 50th was reassigned to the Air Transport Command and the wing transferred to Camp Williams, Camp Douglas, Wisconsin. On 4 Jul 42, the Air Transport Command was redesignated the I Troop Carrier Command and the 50th was redesignated 50th Troop Carrier Wing. The wing continued as both a training and operational unit transferring to Sedalia AAFld, Knobnoster, Missouri on 9 Sep 42 (redesignated Knobnoster AAB on 31 Oct 42); Camp Mackall, Hoffman, North Carolina on 27 Apr 43; and Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina on 28 Jul 43. After clearing for overseas shipment, the 50th left Pope Field on 29 Sep 43 and arrived at Cottesmore, England on 17 Oct 43 assigned to the IX Troop Carrier Command, Ninth Air Force. The 50th trained for the Normandy invasion with the following units assigned: 439th Troop Carrier Group, 21 Feb 44-11 Jul 45 440th Troop Carrier Group, 11 Mar 44-Sep 45 441st Troop Carrier Group, 17 Mar 44-Sep 45 442d Troop Carrier Group, 29 Mar 44-Sep 45 On 26 Apr 44, the 50th transferred to Exeter, England where it remained until 1 Oct 44 when it transferred to Le Mans, France. The 50th transferred one more time in France, to Chartres on 3 Nov 44. After VJ-Day, the 50th transferred without personnel and equipment from Chartres to Pope Field, Ft. Bragg, North Carolina on 29 Sep 45. The wing was remanned and re-equipped until it was inactivated on 31 Jul 46. 10th TRANSPORT/TROOP CARRIER GROUP ---------------------------------- The 10th Transport Group was constituted as the 1st Transport Group on the inactive list on 1 Oct 33. On 20 May 37, it was consolidated with the 10th Observation Group, redesignated 10th Transport Group and activated at Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio. Assigned to the group were the following squadrons: 1st Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 20 May 37-2 Feb 43 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio 20 May 37-26 May 42 General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 26 May-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct 42-9 Jan 43 2d Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 20 May 37-17 Feb 43 Olmsted Field, Middletown, Pennsylvania, 20 May 37-21 May 42 Stout Field, Indianapolis, Indiana, 21 May-1 Jul 42 Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan, 1 Jul-4 Aug 42 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 2 Aug-1 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 1 Oct 42-23 Jan 43 3d Transport Squadron, 20 May 37-10 May 41 Duncan Field, San Antonio, Texas (NOTE: Duncan and Kelly Fields were combined as Kelly Field, 2 Mar 43), 20 May 37-10 May 41 4th Transport Squadron, 20 May 37-10 May 41 Rockwell Field, San Diego, California, 20 May 37-1 Dec 38 Sacramento Air Depot, Sacramento, California (renamed McClellan Field, 1 Dec 39), 1 Dec 38-10 May 41 5th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 14 Oct 39-14 Apr 44 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio 14 Oct 39-25 May 42 General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 25 May-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct-2 Dec 42 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 2 Dec 42-26 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 26 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 27th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Jun 42-12 Jan 44 Harding Field, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 15-21 Jun 42 Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan, 21 Jun-5 Aug 42 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 5 Aug-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct-2 Dec 42 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 2 Dec 42-14 Feb 43 Dunnellon AAFld, Dunnellon, Florida, 14 Feb-13 Dec 43 38th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 19 May 42-14 Apr 44 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio, 19-30 May 42 Stout Field, Indianapolis, Indiana, 30 May-3 Dec 42 Knobnoster AAB, Knobnoster, Missouri, 3 Dec 42-5 Apr 43 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 5 Apr 43-21 Jun 43 Laurinburg-Maxton AAB, Maxton, North Carolina, 21 Jun-10 Sep 43 Camp Mackall, Hoffman, North Carolina, 10 Sep 43-17 Jan 44 Laurinburg-Maxton AAB, 17 Jan-14 Apr 44 307th Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Mar 43-14 Apr 44 Baer Field, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 15 Mar-6 May 43 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 6 May-5 Jun 43 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 5 Jun 43-28 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, 28 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 308th Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Mar 43-14 Apr 44 Baer Field, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 15 Mar-6 May 43 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 6 May-5 Jun 43 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 5 Jun 43-28 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, 28 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 The group was initially assigned to the Office of Chief of the Air Corps and provided aerial transportation of men and equipment in the US. On 20 Jun 38, the 10th transferred to Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio and then back to Patterson Field on 17 Jan 41. On 15 Mar 41, the 10th was reassigned to the Air Corps Provisional Maintenance Command (redesignated Air Corps Maintenance Command on 29 Apr 41 and Air Service Command on 17 Oct 41); on 30 Apr 42, it was reassigned to the Air Transport Command (redesignated I Troop Carrier Command on 4 Jul 42) and transferred to General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin on 25 May 42. On 4 Jul 42, all Transport Groups/Squadrons were redesignated Troop Carrier Groups/Squadrons. For the remainder of it's active service, the 10th trained cadres for troop carrier groups and in 1943 was given the additional duty of training replacement crews. During this period, the 10th transferred to Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina on 4 Oct 42; Dunnellon AAFld, Dunnellon, Florida on 13 Feb 43; Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia on 30 Nov 43; Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi on 21 Jan 44; and Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska on 8 Mar 44. The group was disbanded on 14 Apr 44. 47th PURSUIT/FIGHTER SQUADRON ----------------------------- The 47th Pursuit Squadron (Fighter) was constitued on 22 Nov 40 and activated on 1 Dec 40 at Wheeler Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii assigned to the 15th Pursuit Group (Fighter). The squadron was initially equipped with Boeing P-26 Peashooters but transitioned to Curtiss P-36's and P-40's in 1941. The squadron's complement of aircraft on 7 Dec 41 was: 11 Curtiss P-40B's [7 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Boeing P-26B Peashooters [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Curtiss P-36A Hawks [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Curtiss P-40C's [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 1 Martin B-12 The 47th began flying patrols over the Pacific and provide air defense for the Hawaiian Islands until Dec 44. On 15 Feb 42, the 47th was redesignated 47th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) and the 15th became a Pursuit Group (Interceptor); on 22 Feb, the squadron transferred to Bellows Field, Oahu; and on 25 Mar to Haleiwa Field. On 15 May 42, all Interceptor Commands and Pursuit Wings/Groups/Squadrons were redesignated Fighter Commands/Wings/ Groups/Squadrons. Stations during 1943 and 1944 consisted of Barking Sands, (29 Jul-8 Nov 43), Mokuleia Field (8 Nov 43-8 Jun 44) and Bellows Field (8 Jun 44-27 Jan 45). During 1943, the 47th transitioned from P-36's and P-40's to P-47's and in late 1944, transitioned from P-47's to P-51D's. The 47th departed Hawaii and arrived at South Field, Iwo Jima on 27 Feb 45. Their first mission was flown on 10 Mar 45. The squadron received a Distinguished Unit Citation for escorting B-29's that bombed the Nakajima aircraft plant near Tokyo on 7 Apr 45. The 47th struck Japanese airfields on Kyushu late in Apr and early in May 45 to curtail the Japanese suicide attacks against the US Naval ships at Okinawa. They also hit enemy troop trains, small factories, gun positions and hangars in the Bonin Islands and Japan. They continued flying fighter sweeps against Japanese airfields and other targets, and flew long-range escort missions to Japanese cities until their last mission on 14 Aug 45. The 47th transferred without personnel and equipment to Bellows Field, Oahu on 25 Nov 45 where the squadron was remanned and re-equipped with P-51's. Transferring to Wheeler Field on 9 Feb 46, the squadron was inactivated on 15 Oct 46. The 47th was redesignated the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron on 10 Oct 52 and activated at Niagara Falls Municipal Airport, New York on 1 Dec 52 assigned to the 4708th Defense Wing, Air Defense Command; the squadron was reassigned to the 518th Air Defense Group on 16 Feb 53 and the 15th Fighter Group (Air Defense) on 18 Aug 55. Initially equipped with Republic F-47 Thunderbolts, the squadron transitioned to F-86D Sabre's in 1953 and F-102A Delta Darts in 1958. The 47th was discontinued on 1 Jul 60. Redesignated 47th Tactical Fighter Squadron on 17 Apr 62, the squadron was organized on 1 Jul 62 at MacDill AFB, Tampa, Florida assigned to the 15th Tactical Fighter Wing. Initally equipped with F-84's, the squadron conducted tactical fighter combat crew training, 1962-63, participated in a variety of exercises, operations and readiness tests of the Tactical Air Command, 1963-65. Reorganized as a mission-capable unit at the time of the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, returning afterwards to a training mission. In 1964, the 47th transitioned from F-84's to F-4's and deployed to Southeast Asia 22 Jul-27 Nov 65. Between 1965 and 1970, the 47th functioned as a replacement training unit for F-4 aircrews. The 15th Tactical Fighter Wing and the 47th Tactical Fighter Squadron were inactivated on 1 Oct 70. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:24:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 1 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 1 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang P-70, Douglas CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-24's bomb Mingaladon Airfield; another hits the airfield at Nyaungbinwun; 32 P-51's and A-36's and a single B-25 hit the main airfield at Myitkyina; some of the aircraft then strafe the Radhapur transport depot and storage area to the NW. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China during Feb 44, a detachment of the 16th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, based at Chengkung, operates from Nanning with P-40's; 449th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, transfers from Kunming to Suichwan with P-38's. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Transfers in England: 363d Fighter Squadron, 357th Fighter Group from Raydon to Leiston with P-51's (first mission is 11 Feb); 752d, 753, 754th and 755th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy, 458th Bombardment Group (Heavy) from US to Horsham St Faith with B-24's (first mission is 24 Feb). Transfers in England during Feb 44: HQ 95th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Attlebridge to Ketteringham; HQ 491st Bombardment Group (Heavy) to North Pickenham. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Colonel Clarence E Crumrine temporarily takes command of the XIX Air Support Command, replacing Major General Elwood R Quesada. The latter assumes command of the IX Air Support Command which assumes control of all fighter and reconnaissance units of the IX Fighter Command. Transfers in England: HQ IX Air Support Command from Aldermaston Court to Middle Wallop; HQ XIX Air Support Command from Middle Wallop to Aldermaston Court; HQ 416th Bombardment Group (Light) and 669th, 670th and 671st Bombardment Squadrons (Light) from the US to Wethersfield with A-20's (first mission is 3 Mar); 30th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, III Reconnaissance Command, from the US to Chalgrove with F-5's (first mission is 25 Feb); 366th Fighter Squadron, 58th Fighter Group, from Leiston to Raydon with P-47's. Transfers in UK during Feb 44: HQ 438th Troop Carrier Group and 87th, 88th, 89th and 90th Troop Carrier Squadrons from the US with C-47's. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are limited to a fighter sweep of the Orvieto-Viterbo, Italy area by P-47's and to photo and weather reconnaissance. HQ 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Cerignola to Lucera, Italy. Transfers in Italy during Feb 44: HQ 305th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Foggia to Spinazzola. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's bomb the Albano Laziale road junction; P-40's bomb Cori, while A-36's hit Poggio Mieteto and P-47's attack the station at San Valentino; fighters cover the Anzio battle area. Detachment of 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, operating from Capodichino, Italy with P-39's, returns to base at Montecorvino Airfield. During Feb 44, HQ 81st Fighter Group and 93d Fighter Squadron transfer from Castelvetrano, Sicily to Montecorvino Airfield with P-39's. During Feb, ground echelon of 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force (attached to RAF No. 337 Wing) transfers from Ghisonaccia to Borgo, Corsica; air echelon is at La Senia, Algeria with Beaufighters. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, B-24's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands hit the beach defenses on Kwajalein Island; P-40's on armed reconnaissance over Mille Atoll strafe a beached schooner. Operation CATCHPOLE (operations against Eniwetok and Ujelang Atolls in the Marshall Islands) is begun to occupy and defend Eniwetok Atoll, which is to furnish a striking base for operations against the Marianas Islands. During the operation, Seventh Air Force aircraft operating from newly acquired bases in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands neutralize airfields in the Marianas and continue to pound by-passed airfields in the Marshalls. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Weather prevents 50 B-24's sent against installations in the Admiralty Islands from reaching the target; 2 B-24's bomb a freighter NE of Vanimo, New Guinea while a single B-24 on armed reconnaissance strafes barges in the Solomon Sea. HQ 308th and 309th Bombardment Wings (Heavy) and 310th Bombardment Wing (Medium) are activated at Oro Bay, Lae and Gusap New Guinea respectively; the wings will operate with various groups that are attached for brief periods. Transfers in New Guinea: 8th Bombardment Squadron (Light) from Dobodura to Nadzab with A-20's; 421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, from Milne Bay to Nadzab with P-70's. In New Guinea during Feb 44, a detachment of the 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, based at Dobodura, begins operating from Port Moresby with F-5's. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:41:40 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: MEDIA: Telly Savales dead at 70 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Jan 94 11:32:11 -0500. <9401262134.AA25465@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > Joe, Who could ever forget Telly as "Big Joe" or as the "nut" in the Dirty > Dozen,the tank Sgt. in The Battle of the Bulge? I put him in the category > of actors like John Wayne or Squint Eastwood. These actor merely play > themselves in role after role convincing and entertaining as Barrymore ever > was. > > How about this as a topic real soldiers that became actors like Sterling > Hayden. Cheers ....hakl... I just came across an Interview with Douglass Fairbanks in a recent 'Naval History' Magazine ( I think it was October 93, and y'all think I'm behind on ww2-l :-)). Seems he served a pretty unglamorous tour of duty in the Atlantic and Mediterranian theaters. You might want to look it up as a counter point to some other actors wartime tours. Also recently some folks asked me forfurther info on the Book World (the outlet in Martinsburg WV.) I was there on Sunday and picked up the phone number and address. I'll try to post it from home tonight. I picked up German Tank And Antitank for $5.00 while I was there. They had several volumes of what appeared to be a series on German uniforms and Equipment. I think they were primarily SS but I'm not sure. A lot of other books including one by the US Naval Institute Press which is a collection of the articles by Japanese Naval Officers that first appeared in Proceedings years ago. I picked that on up several months ago and can provide more detailed info from home. Now a question What do y'all think of Six Armies in Normandy? I seem to remember it getting good reviews when it came out but seem to remember being disappointed when I gave it a cursery reading. I'm wondering if I need to look at it again. ( and it is at Book World cheap :-)) Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:05:08 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bill Vasilion Subject: Thank you.. Today I received information I was looking for.... to the author I want to thank publicly.... My dad did not talk much about what he did during the ww-II though I knew he was a 1st sargent and knew he went to Iwoa Jima.. I had no idea what units he served with actually did.... I found in one book that he was on Iwo JIma living in foxholes for two weeks while the Marines were fighting for the island. He said that the Navy Dauntless Bombers were hitting the island with bombs... ............. If anyone on this list is a veteran from that campaign I would like to hear from them....or tell me of thier experience.... I have photos of the japenese pillboxes blown up and some of the machine gun nests carved out of the stone or ??? Also have photos of the US Soilders lining up for mess from the the tents.... they are all fading now... This country sound do more to honor the vets than we do..... thanks again.........bill bvasili@vnet.ibm.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." at Jan 31, 94 07:18:44 pm AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A. writes: |-> |-> While having lunch with Sid Kitchel in Bloomington last fall, he talked |-> about another list he is on that got together at a final four site for |-> the NCAA and spent some time together. I was thinking it might be a |-> good thing for us to do. It's a quite interesting experience to meet people you only know electronically. I think Tim has a good idea and will try to make it to St. Louis myself. For the record, by April my basketball group will have had a second meeting. This year we're going to Ogden, Utah for the first round of the NCAA Tournament at Weber State. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:03:21 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 31 JAN 1994 06:58:56 CST I heard this story from a reenacting friend of mine, who reenacts Royal Winnepeg Rifles, Canadian. He said that the RWR's were all a pretty young unit, and immaturity often leads to atrocity. The RWR's were conducting an attack, and strapped a living German Officer to the glacis plate on the front of the tank. This occured right before they began an attack, and the "ground guided" tank led the formation. Tell me that isn;t a war crime. Apparently the RWR's participated in several war crimes, especially during the time near Carpiquet Airport. I can not quote any references because my friend has them all, but I will see him this weekend, if any one wants more details. It seems to me maturity has a big factor in how people handle themselves. The RWR's was a very young unit, with the average soldier being in the 17-19 range during the Normandy Campaign. They were fighting the 12th SS Hitlerjungend Division. Children fighting children. In case anybody is interested, as of a month ago, the USS Innaugrial, the WWII minesweeper ported in St Louis, was still at the bottom of the Mississippi, with it's dock still attached. I've not heard of any plans to raise or scrap her. Tim ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Mike Bechthold Subject: Re: Re[2]: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: <9402011449.AA00879@mach1.wlu.ca> Tim, I have no doubt that Allied soldiers in Normandy committed what might be considered atrocities in battle, but you must be careful using the term "war crimes". To my way of thinking there is a big deference between acts committed in the heat of battle, for instance the shooting of an enemy soldier when if given a chance he would of surrendered compared to cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder such as happened to a group of Canadian soldiers executed in the Ardenne Abbey by soldiers of the 12th SS under command of a staff officer. The battles around Carpiquet airport witnessed some of the most brutal fighting in Normandy but I have never heard anything about war crimes being committed. Also, for the record I would like to point out two points. First the Royal Winnipeg Rifles was an infantry unit, not armoured and second, the average age of Canadian soldiers at the start of the Normandy campaign was around 25. The soldiers of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, were typical in that they enlisted in 1939-1940 and had spent the last four years in England training. They were a green unit, but not young. On Tue, 1 Feb 1994, AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A. wrote: > I heard this story from a reenacting friend of mine, who reenacts Royal > Winnepeg Rifles, Canadian. He said that the RWR's were all a pretty > young unit, and immaturity often leads to atrocity. The RWR's were > conducting an attack, and strapped a living German Officer to the glacis > plate on the front of the tank. This occured right before they began an > attack, and the "ground guided" tank led the formation. Tell me that > isn;t a war crime. > > Apparently the RWR's participated in several war crimes, especially > during the time near Carpiquet Airport. I can not quote any references > because my friend has them all, but I will see him this weekend, if any > one wants more details. > > It seems to me maturity has a big factor in how people handle > themselves. The RWR's was a very young unit, with the average soldier > being in the 17-19 range during the Normandy Campaign. They were > fighting the 12th SS Hitlerjungend Division. Children fighting > children. > > In case anybody is interested, as of a month ago, the USS Innaugrial, > the WWII minesweeper ported in St Louis, was still at the bottom of the > Mississippi, with it's dock still attached. I've not heard of any plans > to raise or scrap her. > > Tim > > ************************************************************************ > * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * > * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * > * WP:816-785-5253 * > * HP:816-665-6704 * > * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * > ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting Your get-together idea is interesting... Coming to St. Louis would also give me a chance to investigate the B-25 which is apparently still based there. Keep me informed. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 11:52:54 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 30 Jan 1994 00:53:26 CST from Sly, A lot of people who were convicted of war crimes by the Allies after the war, were "simply doing their job." Just because someone is doing their job does not mean that they are relieved of all guilt. If the case did go to court eventaully, what other witnesses would there have been besides the angry POW's? The lt. could not have known what the post war system of war criminal prosecution could have been like and did the best he could to rectify the situation. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 13:07:48 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan O'Neil Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 31 Jan 1994 08:55:44 EST from Charles, Yours was the convincing post on the subject and made me rethink my postion. I hadn't given a lot of consideration to the fact that the newly liberated POW's did not realize that they would be sentencing the "bad" guards to death. This naturally makes everything that much fuzzier. Then again, I am not even sure that it would have been proper had the guards known. Thank you very much for your insightful posting. I will admit that I was wrong. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 13:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Horner Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Foo Fighters John and LTC Con Crane, You brought up a very interesting and mysterious phenomenon that occurred not only in the Pacific but also in Europe. The "Foo Fighters" were encountered by allied aircraft and were variously described as lights, small silvery spheres or rockets that seemed to be able to maneuver with intelligent control. The interesting thing about them is that the official conclusion from the 8th Air Force was that they were a device send up by the Germans to assist in aiming flak guns, but after the war, they were surprised to learn that the Germans were just as confused about the true identity of the Foo Fighters as they were! I have a clipping from an AP bullitan that describes them, and I'll try to check up on my info if anyone is interested (my info is at home, I'm at work....) Greetings to all, John Horner SUNY at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:45:12 CST Reply-To: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: ; from "GEORGE BAUER" at Feb 1, 94 10:10 am > Your get-together idea is interesting... Coming to St. Louis would also give > me a chance to investigate the B-25 which is apparently still based there. > > Keep me informed. We could do this all over the place. I always like to suggest Minneapolis (because I can rarely get anywhere else and no one ever comes here... :-) We have our annual WWII Aircraft static display plus two USO-style big band hangar dances (and of course, the MOA (Marketing Operations Area aka Mall of America)). BTW: We have three B-25s in the neighborhood, including Miss Mitchell. :-) (The B-25 in St. Louis is Show Me, of the CAF. They got pretty much wiped out in the floods last year. The B-25 is safe, but the P-63 found itself under water along with the rest of the hangar and airport...) -- Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:44:33 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 31 JAN 1994 23:10:56 CST The B-25 located in the St. Louis area is "Show Me", and is based out of St. Charles. I do not have any contacts with the Confederate Air Force, other than Robert Granvin. He might be able to help since he is a PAO type for them. I will see if I can't get a firm date for the Jefferson Barracks weekend tonight. Regarding the Royal Winnepeg Rifles, I will check with my source this weekend. He has been a WWII reenactor on the Commonwealth side for about 10 years, and has contacts with the RWR veteran's groups. The infor I posted was read to me on the phone. Some of it was from the Regimental Histry. I will see what additional details I can find out. And yes, the RWR were an infantry unit, but they were supported by tanks at the time of the incident I cited. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:51:32 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII You studying at George Brown College? If so, there is a lot of info close by you. Central Reference Library, Yonge & bloor, History Department. Plenty of references there. Give it a shot. Good hunting. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:28:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: First Daylight Raid on Berlin SUBJ: AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME: 94feb01 This electronic features package is published semi-monthly, on the 1st and 15th of each month, by the Air Force News Agency, 1015 Billy Mitchell Rd., Kelly AFB, TX, 78241-5601. Information in AFNS Features is for use by Air Force base newspaper editors and editors of other Air Force publications. Please credit AFNS Features and individual authors for material used. & & & & & & & & & 017. First Army Air Force daylight bombing of Berlin - March 4, 1944 by Maj. Richard L. Sargent, USAFR By late February 1944 long-range fighter escorts routinely protected American heavy bombers on daylight missions against targets in central Germany. Sweeping out from the bomber formations, the fighter escorts aggressively hunted German fighters, preventing them from stopping the bombers. Their confidence in daylight strategic bombardment rising with each successful mission, 8th Air Force commanders turned their attention to Berlin, the capital of Nazi Germany. A distant, well-defended target of tremendous psychological significance, Berlin suffered only sporadic nighttime bombing by the Royal Air Force prior to March 1944. Hitler's capital lay deep in central Germany, thus an attacking force had to fly nearly 1,200 miles for almost 6 1/2 hours over hostile territory. On March 3, the bombing force was briefed for Berlin targets. Unfortunately, the bombers ran into steadily deteriorating weather as they flew over the North Sea. Over the Jutland Peninsula, cloud tops extended to 28,000 feet and, together with the dense and persistent contrails, made formation flying almost impossible. Most of the combat wings aborted the mission while others bombed various targets of opportunity. On March 4, snow flurries and extended cloud cover again forced most of the heavy bombers to turn back or hit targets of opportunity in the Rhur Valley. One of the 14 8th AF combat wings, however, managed to bomb the Klein Machnow suburb southwest of Berlin. P-51 Mustangs escorted the 31 B-17s that flew to Berlin, and they suppressed the aggressive, although ineffective, attacks of 30 to 35 single-engine German fighters. The 29 B-17s that bombed their targets began a promising visual attack through a break in the clouds on the Bosch plant, makers of specialized electrical equipment for aircraft and military vehicles, but they were forced to continue the run by radar. Bad weather, rather than enemy action, apparently caused the loss of two bombers. Though no serious target damage resulted, the mission of March 4, 1944, was an important moral victory over the Nazis that significantly boosted Allied morale. The London Evening Standard, in a leading editorial headed "Allies over Berlin!" spoke hopefully of the increased scope of integrated Anglo-American bombing and saw in this first raid by the "Yanks" to a target long held in high regard by the RAF "a sign of the unshakable comradeship" of the American and British peoples. This historical mission was the first of 21 8th AF raids on the German capital city. The decision to undertake an intensive bombardment of Berlin implied a new confidence on the part of the American air command in the ability of the long-range P-51 fighter escort to take the heavy bombers to distant and well-defended targets. In fact, the Berlin campaign of March 1944 marked an important milestone in the development of the long-range fighter. (Sargent is assigned to the Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Ala.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:57:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Foo Fighters >John and LTC Con Crane, >You brought up a very interesting and mysterious phenomenon that occurred >not only in the Pacific but also in Europe. The "Foo Fighters" were >encountered by allied aircraft and were variously described as lights, >small silvery spheres or rockets that seemed to be able to maneuver with >intelligent control. The interesting thing about them is that the official >conclusion from the 8th Air Force was that they were a device send up by >the Germans to assist in aiming flak guns, but after the war, they were >surprised to learn that the Germans were just as confused about the true >identity of the Foo Fighters as they were! I have a clipping from an AP >bullitan that describes them, and I'll try to check up on my info if anyone >is interested (my info is at home, I'm at work....) > >Greetings to all, > >John Horner >SUNY at Delhi John, I initially hesitated to use that term in my comments, since I have seen some UFO advocates who claim foo-fighters were really flying saucers, but the term did show up in one of the eye-witness accounts. That particular account also claimed one of the objects struck and destroyed a B-29. Another saw them dropped from Japanese medium-bombers, just like the Baka. We'll probably never solve this one. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:15:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Back soon now... In-Reply-To: <9402011733.AA27340@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "GEORGE BAUER" at Feb 1, 94 10:10 am HI, I hope to be back to full speed by the end of the week. Until then I would like to make a gentle suggestion that we all conduct ourselves in the manner that WWII-L has come to expect. If anyone can not do so, save me some time and delete yourself. I expect an occasional "hasty" posting to contain some unfortunate wording. I do not expect it to escalate beyond that point. If anyone takes personal exception to anything posted here, I expect any responses to be in the private mail. WWII-L is not a forum for airing greivances and I'll shut the whole thing down before I'll let it become the kind of flame-fest soc.history has become. If this is not immeniently clear to anyone, feel free to write me. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:25:55 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: CFV: soc.history.moderated In-Reply-To: <9402012114.AA24547@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." at Feb 1, 94 12:44 pm FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) Moderated group soc.history.moderated Newsgroups line: soc.history.moderated Historical discussions on any historically-relevant topic (moderated). Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 22 February 1994. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only, contact Jay Maynard, jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu. For questions about the proposed group, contact the group's proposer, Mike Traynor, at traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov. CHARTER Title: soc.history.moderated This will be a moderated group. Moderators: Volunteers are very much still encouraged. Preliminary names include the following: Todd McComb (mccombtm@netcom.com) David Morton (gt2692@prism.gatech.edu) Richard Miller (rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu) Lance Visser (visser@dhostwo.convex.com) Laura Mollett (Art History) (lcmoll00@aix3090b.uky.edu) Jason Esser (BA History) (esse0002@gold.tc.umn.edu) Gary Hewitt (glhewitt@phoenix.princeton.edu) Laura Burchard (lhb@vnet.ibm.com) Stephen Graham (graham@cs.washington.edu) Stephen Balbach (?) (BA History) (stephen@clark.net) Matthew Mckenzie (mmckenzi@uga.cc.uga.edu) Mike Traynor (traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov) More help would be appreciated. Charter: The group will allow a free-flowing discussion of historical events and trends of _general_ intrest to the Usenet history devotees. If desired later, this group will allow for subgroup formation into seperate historical periods and topics. The moderator will have broad powers to determine what topics are of general interest. A non-exclusive list of post characteristics the moderator can use to determine the acceptance or rejection of a post for general posting in the group are: o ad-hominem attacks o flames o pathological cross-postings for a given posts (for example, cross-postings to/from groups that bear little relation to the nature of the post) o use of inappropriate vulgarisms in a post o general tastlessness in a post o a non-replyable e-mail address If the moderator so desires, she/he will respond to a rejected post stating the reasons for rejection, and if she/he so desires, suggesting modifications that will allow a modified post into the group. Lively, animated discussions on historical events or topics where there is genuine controversy, or where there is general consensus, are encouraged. Requests for information are also encouraged. HOW TO VOTE Send MAIL to: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list. Please do not post your vote, as it won't count and may well earn you flames from the peanut gallery. Your mail message should contain one of the following statements: I vote YES on soc.history.moderated I vote NO on soc.history.moderated You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. Please don't include a copy of this entire message; it just wastes disk space. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly. Only one vote per person and per account will be counted. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. -- Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity. "The difference between baseball and politics is that, in baseball, if you get caught stealing, you're out!" -- Ed Shanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards For those who would like to see some cold hard facts concerning human behavior in the area of prison guards (or for that matter soldiers), I recommend going to a local library and picking up an Introduction to Psychology book. Look up Milgram's experiment concerning obedience and Zimbardo's prison study. Both of these experiments are documented, and they will astound some of you that have been sending some interesting messages on the list. These experiments were conducted with Americans as subjects. JPN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:34:49 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS schedules In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 14:28:00 CST The Jefferson Barracks event is scheduled for April 30-1 M. I am posting the WWII Historical Reenactment Society and WWII Airman's Preservation Society schedule of events, as they stand today. March (date unspecified) WWIIHRS, Weldon Springs, MO, Weldon Springs Reeanctment, This event is presently up in the air. Weldon is the birthplace of WWII reenacting, and has been closed for several years due to toxic and radioactive waste cleanup. The HRS is presently working with the Army reserve to get the site opened for reenacting again. More details will follow, if they develop. March 27-28, WWIIHRS, Rosemont, MN, Western Front Battle April 30-1 May, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks (South St Louis County), MO battle reeanctments and displays, Saturday night includes a USO show and dance. WWIIAPS members will be present as well. May 27-30, WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS, Columbia, MO, Salute to Veterans, display on Saturday and Sunday, parade on Monday, A very large airshow with many aircraft. Blue Angels performed Memorial Day '93. 4 June, WWIIHRS, Chicago (lakefront), IL, D-Day reenactment, to include landing craft provided by the USN, event to be covered live by WGN. 4 June Weekend, WWIIHRS (event sponcered by WWII Historical Reemactment Federation), 5 day D-day event, includes 2 days of spectator landings, 1 day of tactical combat village battle, and a USO show. (this one is supposed to be the reenactment to end all reenactments) More details to follow. June 11-12, WWIIAPS, Dyersburg, TN, airshow June 25-26 (date not confirmed), WWIIHRS (sponcered by 11th Panzer), New Lenox, IL, Airshow and battle reenactments, small event but good campsites and the public can get up close to the reenactors July 15-17 WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, airshow July 28-August 2, WWIIAPS, Oshkosh, WI, EAA Fly Inn (need I say anymore? September 3-5, WWIIAPS, Louisville, KY, Clark County Airport, Airshow September 21-24, WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, 91st Bomb Group Reunion, (WWIIAPS portrays the 91st, so this is a big event) September (no date specified), Chesterfield, MO, Spirit of St Louis Apt, Airshow (this event was canceled last year due to floating lear jets) December 17, WWIIAPS, Chicago, IL, Christmas Party, probably to be held at 91st Aero Squadron near O'Hare Airport, St Louis members last year took the train to and from the event. As you can see, the WWIIHRS calender has not filled up yet--more info should be coming later about events. If anyone has any questions, please contact me direct. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 22:05:14 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: B Vasilion - USAAF Units I find it interesting that the 47th was re-activated in 1952 with F-47's. I have read in numerous places that the Air Force would have prefered F-47's over F-51's in Korea because the Thunderbolt's radial engine was more rugged that the packard-merlin. But, according to these accounts there were no 47's available. Was the F-47 still in squadron service in the 1950's? Sorry, I know this is a little off topic. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 20:38:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: Naziism & the Occult Hi, I'm looking for some references on the connection between Naziism, Satanism, and maybe even the New Age cult/religion that's come to the surface in the last 25 years. Initiation into the SS and the Nazi party involved strange ceremonies and rites that bear some resemblance to a New Age religion. Marriage and funeral ceremonies among Nazis were conspicuously detached from Christianity, and we all know Germany is predominantly Protestant with Catholic minorities. The Nazis claimed to have a blood connection with the Fatherland, possibly implying a distorted revival of prechristian Earth-worship. But the Nazi philosophy obviously had love for nothing more than militarism and violence. I hope I've sparked some interest. -Dylan Fierro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:02:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" Subject: Re: Ref:Re: Bombing ships by air launched weapons X-To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET) Con, John, et al., The Yokosuka MXY7 Navy Suicide Attacker Ohka (Cherry Blossom) Model 11 aircraft was primarily designed as an anti-invasion or coastal defence weapon to be launched from a parent aircraft. Following an initial glide after release from the mother pane, the MXY7 was to accelerate towards its target on the power of three solid-propellant rockets mounted in the tail, being fired either singly or in unison. This aws also a "Baka" type bomb. The design and construction of unpowered prototypes was completed in a matter of weeks, and by the end of September 1944 ten MXY7s had been completed. Naned Suicide Attacker Ohka (Cherry Blossom) Model 11, the initial version was to carry a 2,646 warhead in the nose and be transported in the bomb_bay of a specially modified Navy Type 1 Attack Bomber Model 24J (G4M2e), named Betty by the Allies. The Ohka Model 11 could reach a top speed of 250 kt (288 mph) without power and 350 kt (403 mph) with full thrust. On 21 March, 1945, the Ohka Model 11 was taken into battle by the 721st Kokutai, but sixteen G4M2e parent aircraft were intercepted and forced to release their weapons short of the target. The first success was achieved on 1 April when Ohkas damaged the battleship * West Virginia * and three transport vessels, while the first Allied ship sunk by Ohka aircraft was the destroyer * Mannert L.Abele * , lost off Okinawa on 12 April. The slow and cumberson parent aircraft proved to be extremely vulnerable when approaching to within a few miles of well-defended targets, and production of the Ohka Model 11 ceased in March 1945. Other developments of the Ohka series included a single Ohka Model 11 experimentally fitted with wings made by Nakajima out of thin steel; the Ohka Model combining the powerplant of the Model 11 with the airframe of the Model 22; and the Model 53 which, powered by a Ne-20 turbojet, was to be towed aloft by another aircraft and released over the target. The Mitsubishi G4M2 Navy Type 1 Attack Bomber Model 11, Betty, was to acquire fame as the carrier for the MXY7 Navy Suicide Attacker -- Ohka. A substantial number of G4M2a Model 24B and 24C aircraft had their bomb-bay doors removed and were fitted with special shackles to carry the Ohka piloted missile. This modification was redesignated G4M2e Model 24J. This aircraft was very heavy and had poor handling characteristics when carrying the Ohka and proved an easy target for Allied fighter aircraft. An offifial announcement by Combined Fleet Headquarters said that 2,409 kamikaze pilots were killed in performance of their duty duing World War Two. Carl Wernke TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:31:16 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: 6 Armies in Normandy 2i@K Vi@J+%. ,%yOf$SQVc -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 01:32:40 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sly Subject: U.S. Lt. killing... >Sly, > A lot of people who were convicted of war crimes by the Allies after the >war, were "simply doing their job." Just because someone is doing their job >does not mean that they are relieved of all guilt. If the case did go to >court eventaully, what other witnesses would there have been besides the angry >POW's? The lt. could not have known what the post war system of war criminal >prosecution could have been like and did the best he could to rectify the >situation. > Ryan Yes, I realize that a lot of people that were convicted thought their jobs consisted of murdering innocent people. What I am wondering (if this doesn't stray to close to the invisible line of starting a Holocaust argument) now is what positions in a concentration camp would exist (if any) where a guard or worker would either not know of the killings and/or not take any part in them. I really don't want to start another argument though, so if the question is deemed to difficult then just don't answer it (this for everyone, I don't know if this is considered to go too far). I understand the horrors of the Nazi's, and especially of the Totenkopfverbande SS guards (I believe this designation is correct). I am not trying to downplay it in any way. By the way, thanks for posting calmly. I appreciate it. "What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void." -Shinmen Musashi *Sly (mtlindem@midway.uchicago.edu)* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 01:55:37 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: 6 Armies in Normandy No, I was not cursing John Keegan :-). There was a lot of noise on the line tonight. I thought I had cancelled this gibberish--must have pressed send by mistake. Sorry -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:51:00 LCL Reply-To: Jeff Olson Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jeff Olson Organization: Ky/In PC User's Group - Louisville, KY - 502-423-8654 Subject: Bombing bombers by air la Gudmundur-- GH.Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever .used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters? According to _Winged Victory_ by Perret, on August 17, 1943 the 1st Bomb Wing was attacked by German twin engine fighters enroute to bombing Schweinfurt. The fighters attacked with rockets and experimented with air-to-air bombing. No mention as to their effectiveness. Jeff --- . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:44:35 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: <199402010119.AA27284@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET Hey! A meeting I could make! I'm FOR it. Come on down, John (Lundstrom), and we'll play a REAL Russian Front boardgame on the way! Lou Coatney, WIU, Macomb IL 309/836-1447 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 06:32:13 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Collins Steven CPT Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult >Hi, > > I'm looking for some references on the connection between Naziism, > >Satanism, and maybe even the New Age cult/religion that's come to the surface > >in the last 25 years. Initiation into the SS and the Nazi party involved > >strange ceremonies and rites that bear some resemblance to a New Age religion. > >Marriage and funeral ceremonies among Nazis were conspicuously detached from > >Christianity, and we all know Germany is predominantly Protestant with Catholi c > >minorities. The Nazis claimed to have a blood connection with the Fatherland, > >possibly implying a distorted revival of prechristian Earth-worship. But the > >Nazi philosophy obviously had love for nothing more than militarism and > >violence. I hope I've sparked some interest. -Dylan Fierro Dylan: A new book (published in 1992) entitled: __The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935__ by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke addresses some of the issues of which you are interested. It is, at times, a very engrossing work and shows how the Nazis borrowed some of its ideology from occult societies existing in Germany and Austria at the turn of this century. Goodrick-Clarke also attempts to demonstrate how these same occult societies made certain segments of the German populace more amendable to the Nazi movement. Good luck with your research. CPT Steve Collins USMA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 12:31:44 GMT,BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Gillies Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult > A new book (published in 1992) entitled: __The Occult Roots of Nazism: > Secret Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria > and Germany, 1890-1935__ by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke addresses some of the > issues of which you are interested. It is, at times, a very engrossing work > and shows how the Nazis borrowed some of its ideology from occult societies > existing in Germany and Austria at the turn of this century. Goodrick-Clarke > also attempts to demonstrate how these same occult societies made certain > segments of the German populace more amendable to the Nazi movement. > > Good luck with your research. > > CPT Steve Collins > USMA I would second the recommendation of Goodrick-Clarke (although I wouldn't describe it as a "new" book - my copy was published in 1985 by The Aquarian Press, Wellingborough, England - ISBN 0-85030-402-4). I would also recommend (with reservations) Jean-Michel ANGEBERT (1974) The Occult and the Third Reich. If you read German, the best source I have come across is Josef ACKERMANN "Heinrich Himmler als Ideologe" (Goettingen, 1970). Cheers, John John Gillies Department of Psychology Adam Smith Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8RT Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351 Scotland johng@psy.gla.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 07:41:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 2 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 2 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): Marshall Josef V Stalin agrees to provide 6 bases for US aircraft in the USSR. STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 205: 95 of 110 B-24's hit V-weapon construction sites at St Pol/Siracourt and Watten, France; 2 B-24's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA and 19 MIA. 183 P-47's escort the B-24's without loss. 364th Fighter Squadron, 357th Fighter Group, transfers from Raydon to Leiston, England with P-51's; first mission is 11 Feb. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 36 B-26's attack Triqueville Airfield, France. Eighth Air Force escorts are 34 P-38's and 44 P-47's. No losses. Transfers in England: 365th Fighter Squadron, 358th Fighter Group from Leiston to Raydon with P-47's; 381st Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, from Keevil to Rivenhall with P-51's, first mission is 24 Feb; 668th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 416th Bombardment Group (Light), from the US to Wethersfield with A-20's, first mission is 3 Mar. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's, with Spitfire escort, bomb the radar station at Durazzo, Albania. 32d, 352d, 353d and 419th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Cerignola to Lucera, Italy with B-17's. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Major General Gordon P Saville becomes Commanding General, XII Air Support Command. In Italy, B-25's attack the Marino road junction and A-20's bomb Norma; A-36's and P-40's bomb villages, road junctions, trucks, trains, parked aircraft, supply dump, and the Viterbo road during several fighter-bomber missions; P-40's on patrol over the battle areas attack Cisterna di Latina and Formia. 23d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, transfers from San Servero, Italy to Alghero, Sardinia with F-5's. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from bases in the Gilbert Islands attack the Marshall Islands, i.e., A-24's and P-40's from Makin Island bomb runways and gun positions on Mille Atoll and along with P-39 escort strafe NE tip of the island; B-24's from Tarawa Atoll bomb Rongelap Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 31st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on Guadalcanal Island, begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24's. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's bomb Sorong and Alexishafen; nearly 50 A-20's pound installations in the Madang area. B-25's hit coastal targets on New Britain Island from Cape Gauffre to Rein Bay. Other B-25's attack shipping off Tingwon Island in the Bismarck Archipelago and off the SE coast of New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 08:33:39 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Reading List I am putting together a short reading list concerning the level of military technology existing in the major powers at the outset of World War II. I would very much appreciate any and all suggestions. Thanks Ahead of Time, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 10:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter Smith Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult Try James Webb's _The Occult Establishment_ (LaSalle, IL, Open Court Pub. Co.: 1976). It gives good background on the roots of Victorian mysicism and its later embodyments. -- Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA psmith@dg-webo.webo.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com #include ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 09:46:57 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. In-Reply-To: <199402020947.AA06623@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET Tim, I would check with your friend to make sure he approves of your sharing the information with us. You don't want to lose a friend, and want to be careful that Canadians understand we are not out to "get" (just) them. Remember that there are possible legal/moral/emotional ramifications to this. They are not as easy to overlook when you discuss a more recent war, like Indochina, but for the (now aged) veterans of WWII, they are just as real and personal. Nonetheless, I look forward to the information (as much as everyone else) if it is forthcoming. Thank you for your initiative and conscientiousness on this. Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 13:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Horner Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Foo Fighters LTC Con and all, Thanks for the post about the "Foo Fighters." It seemd that the term was used rather liberally to describe any unidentified flying object (a real UFO, by definition) just like bogie was/is used to describe an aircraft of unknown nationality. There is some rather interesting info concerning the Foo Fighters over Europe as the following AP story will show: SILVER BALLS FLOATING IN AIR NAZI'S NEWEST WAR DEVICE Paris, Dec. 13-As the Allied armies ground out new gains on the western front today, the Germans were disclosed to have thrown a new "device" into the war - mysterious silvery balls which float in the air. Pilots report seeing these objects, both individ- ually and in clusters, during forays over the Reich. (The purpose of the floaters was not immediate- ly evident. It is possible that they represent a new anti-aircraft defense instrument or weapon.) (This dispatch was heavily censored at supreme headquarters.) This is obviously 1944. A good combat report that deals with the Foo fighters was filed by Captain Alvah M Reida of the 486th Bomb Group which was stationed in India. The date in August 10, 1944. I was on a mission from Ceylon, bombing Palembang, Sumatra...shortly before midnight. There were 50 planes in my strike....[and] our altitude was 14000 feet with an indicated airspeed 210 mph. While in the area we were exposed to sporadic flak fire, but immediately after leaving the area it ceased. At about 20 or 30 minutes later the right gunner and copilot reported a strange object pacing us about 500 yards off out starboard wing. At that distance it appeared as a spherical object, probably about 5 or 6 feet in diameter, of a very bright and intense red or orange in color....My gunner reported it coming from about 5 o'clock position at our level. It seemed to throb or vibrate constantly. Assuming it was some kind of radio controlled object sent to pace us, I went into evasive action, changing direction constantly as much as 90 degrees and altitude at about 2000 feet. It followed our every maneuver for about 8 minutes, always holding a position 500 yards out and about 2 o'clock position in relation to the plane. When it left, it made an abrupt 90 degree turn, and accelerated radidly, disappearing in the overcast...during the strike evaluation and interrogation following the mission, I made a detailed report to Intelligence thinking it was some new type of radio-controlled missile or weapon. (quoted from "Mysteries of the Skies" by Gordon Lore and Harold Deneault, Robert Hale, London 1969, p. 127) I also should mention that the aircraft was a B-29. In "Above Top Secret," by Timothy Good (William Morrow, New York, 1988), it is claimed that the problem with the Foo Fighters was such that the British set up an organiz- ation led by Lietutenant General Massey in 1943 to study them. At the same time, the Germans, under Professor Georg Kamper, set up Sonder Buro No. 13 (Operation Uranus) to study the same thing. The Massey Project came to the conclusion that the Foo Fighters were not german and the 8th Air Force officially concluded that the sightings were a result of St. Elmo's Fire, ball lightning and combat fatigue. I am hardly a "UFO-buff" but I do believe that the Foo Fighters are a genuine mystery that calls for serious research. UFOs are just that, Unidentified Flying Objects and should not nessecarity be labeled "flying saucers" nor should they be immediately dismissed as nonsense. Any reactions or more info? This subject has intrigued me for some time and I was happy to see a posting about it. Greetings to all from cold Upstate New York, John Horner Area Coordinator SUNY College of Tech at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 14:11:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GERMAN 101/102 LAB Subject: Re: Foo Fighters In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 02 FEB 1994 04:28:56 EST Sounds interesting. Wonder if anyone knows of any German language reports from WW II which mentions this phenomenon? Dale Lally dlally@stlawu.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 13:12:19 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 21:46:57 CST Lou, don;t worry about me losing my friend--he has been a friend for over 10 years--we went to high school, college, the same officer basic course, and he got me into reenacting. I will see what he can provide as for details. He has contacts with the real RWR's vet's group. I will check with hotels in the St. Louis area, and put some information together about the Jeff Barracks event. I should have it together by next week. So far, I've seen Sid Kitchell, George Brauer, and Lou Coatney show interest. Anyone else? 11th Panzer can host the get together. By hosting, we would be glad to show you around our campsite, and provide assistance at the event. Generally present at the event--1 Staurt Tank, 1 or 2 U.S.half-tracks, a twin cannon US Bofors AAA piece (forget the size), a DUKW, a Dodge 3/4 ton, the 11th Panzer reporduction 247c Armored Car (made from a 1953 willy's pick-up), a Kubel, maybe some motorcycles, and other various vehicles from the Armed Forces Museum at the Melvin Price Support Center, Granite City, IL. I'll even let you guys touch my MP-40! I'll send more info as I get it---TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 15:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Foo Fighters Does anyone known the source of the name? Why "foo" fighters? During the 1930s/40s there was a popular comic strip called Smokey Stover in which there were "fire" fighters known as "foo fighters." Is this the connection ... or is my aged memory failing even faster these days? -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 20:59:55 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: Foo Fighters In-Reply-To: <9402021928.AA03626@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "John Horner" at Feb 2, 94 1:28 pm Amazing subject these "foo fighters", now I have two questions: 1. Were there any reported casualities/damages due to these foo's? (Perhaps there was a "foo" ace :) ) 2. Did these incidents occur in WWI, Korea or Vietnam? Greeting from warmy Iceland :) Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 15:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Foo Fighters Question: Were Foo Fighters reported during the Korean War and/or over Vietnam? Are there still reports involving military aircraft (as distinct from "ordinary" UFO sightings)? -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 16:06:00 CDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Roger Safian Subject: Re: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. Tim, Add me to the list for the get together...Is there any chance we could watch "kelly's Heros" while we're there? Roger P.S. Big :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 21:53:11 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: [MAILER-DAEMON@bradley.bradley.edu: Returned mail: Host unknown] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: MAILER-DAEMON@bradley.bradley.edu (Mail Delivery Subsystem) To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 02:10:50 -0600 ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 buvm.cc.buffalo.edu (TCP)... 550 Host unknown 554 ... 550 Host unknown (Authoritative answer from name server) ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from heartland.bradley.edu by bradley.bradley.edu with SMTP id AA00362 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for wwii-l@buvm.cc.buffalo.edu); Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:57:29 -0600 Received: by heartland.bradley.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23369; Wed, 2 Feb 94 00:57:32 CST Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 00:57:32 CST Message-Id: <9402020657.AA23369@heartland.bradley.edu> From: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu (Steve Alvin) To: wwii-l@buvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: 6 Armies in Normandy Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Some one (Bob Smart? I mistakenly deleted the original post) asked for opinions about John Keegan's *Six Armies in Normandy* I just re-read the book a couple of months ago. IMHO it was a disappointing sequel to his classic *Face of Battle*, but then again that was a tough thing to do. But, I still found the book useful and at times interesting. He shows the importance of Allied code breaking in the campaign. His chapter on the Polish Armored Division, was quite good. I also though his essay on the decision to launch the second front was a good summary. Like in *FOB*, Keegan is at his best in *6AN* when he is discussing what it was like to be in combat in Normandy. If the book is cheap, I'd recommend buying it. (if it is real cheap, buy 2 & I'll buy the extra copy from you :-)) -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu This was what I meant to send about 6 Armies. Of course I sent it to the wrong address. :-) -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 22:43:29 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Dive Bombers In-Reply-To: <199402011415.GAA17256@netcomsv.netcom.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 1994, Bill Vasilion wrote: > I found in one book that he was on Iwo JIma living in foxholes for > two weeks while the Marines were fighting for the island. He said that > the Navy Dauntless Bombers were hitting the island with bombs... > ............. This is minor to your fathers memory, but are you sure they were Dauntless Dive Bombers? Iwo Jima was in March of 1945 I believe. By that time I thought the Navy Dauntlesses were replaced by Curtiss Helldivers. That change may not have been totally complete, but I think by March of '45 there were very few Dauntlesses in frontline service. Just an observation. John ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:22:11 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Johannes van Vuren Subject: American bouncing bomb Yesterday in the London Times there was an article about the British bouncing bomb dropped on German dams during ww2. It then went on to mention that the Americans were busy developing their own bouncing bomb at that time. Im wondering how far they got with this development and whether it was ever used on a dam. Johannes van Vuren, Canterbury, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:26:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Re: B.Vasilon - USAAF units / F-47 Steve was wondering if the F-47 was still in service in 1952, so was I, but in his excellent series about USAAF fighters Joe Baugher wrote : >P-47D and N Thunderbolts remained in service with the USAF for several >years after the war, serving with SAC, TAC, and ADC squadrons. >Eventually they reached Air National Guard squadrons, from which, >after being redesignated F-47D and F-47N in 1948, they were finally >phased out of service in 1955. > >Joe Baugher AT&T Bell Laboratories 2000 North Naperville Road > Naperville, Illinois 60566-7033. (708) 713-4548 Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 14:27:36 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: FOO, was: Re: Foo Fighters > Does anyone known the source of the name? Why "foo" fighters? During > the 1930s/40s there was a popular comic strip called Smokey Stover > in which there were "fire" fighters known as "foo fighters." Is > this the connection ... or is my aged memory failing even faster these days? Longish extract from the 'jargon file', also published as 'The Hacker's dictionary': :foo: /foo/ 1. interj. Term of disgust. 2. Used very generally as a sample name for absolutely anything, esp. programs and files (esp. scratch files). 3. First on the standard list of {metasyntactic variable}s used in syntax examples. See also {bar}, {baz}, {qux}, {quux}, {corge}, {grault}, {garply}, {waldo}, {fred}, {plugh}, {xyzzy}, {thud}. The etymology of hackish `foo' is obscure. When used in connection with `bar' it is generally traced to the WWII-era Army slang acronym FUBAR (`Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition'), later bowdlerized to {foobar}. (See also {FUBAR}). However, the use of the word `foo' itself has more complicated antecedents, including a long history in comic strips and cartoons. The old "Smokey Stover" comic strips by Bill Holman often included the word `FOO', in particular on license plates of cars; allegedly, `FOO' and `BAR' also occurred in Walt Kelly's "Pogo" strips. In the 1938 cartoon "Daffy Doc", a very early version of Daffy Duck holds up a sign saying "SILENCE IS FOO!"; oddly, this seems to refer to some approving or positive affirmative use of foo. It has been suggested that this might be related to the Chinese word `fu' (sometimes transliterated `foo'), which can mean "happiness" when spoken with the proper tone (the lion-dog guardians flanking the steps of many Chinese restaurants are properly called "fu dogs"). It is even possible that hacker usage actually springs from `FOO, Lampoons and Parody', the title of a comic book first issued in September 1958; the byline read `C. Crumb' but the style of the art suggests this may well have been a sort-of pseudonym for noted weird-comix artist Robert Crumb. The title FOO was featured in large letters on the front cover. What the word meant to Mr. Crumb is anybody's guess. An old-time member reports that in the 1959 `Dictionary of the TMRC Language', compiled at {TMRC} there was an entry that went something like this: FOO: The first syllable of the sacred chant phrase "FOO MANE PADME HUM." Our first obligation is to keep the foo counters turning. For more about the legendary foo counters, see {TMRC}. Almost the entire staff of what became the MIT AI LAB was involved with TMRC, and probably picked the word up there. Very probably, hackish `foo' had no single origin and derives through all these channels from Yiddish `feh' and/or English `fooey'. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:41:12 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: American bouncing bomb >Yesterday in the London Times there was an article about the British bouncing >bomb dropped on German dams during ww2. It then went on to mention that the >Americans were busy developing their own bouncing bomb at that time. > >Im wondering how far they got with this development and whether it was ever >used on a dam. > >Johannes van Vuren, >Canterbury, England. Johannes, The American 5th and 14th Air Forces in the Pacific began using a technique called "skip-bombing" in 1943. Medium bombers would sling their bombs at ships just like we skip stones across a pond. It was a very successful method of attacking Japanese shipping. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: St. Louis get-together From: Roger Safian : > Add me to the list for the get together...Is there any chance we > could watch "kelly's Heros" while we're there? If "Kelly's Heroes" is part of the itinerary, then I'll have to come! My copy is kinda beat, though, (I can't imagine why!) so someone else would have to bring theirs! -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Mulligan!? On time and on target!? Cripes! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:12:37 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Reading List In-Reply-To: A good overview of military technology is "Of Arms and Men : A history of War, Weapons, and Aggression" by Robert L. O'Connell. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:53:37 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together The great idea for a meeting at St. Louis prompts me to mention that the Society of Military History annual meeting will be in Washington DC in April and that the U.S. Army's conference for military historians will be there in June. Both would also be good opportunities for list members to get together. I plan to attend both and use the opportunities to propagandize the attendees about the wonders of INTERNET (for those not already on line). Hope to meet as many net members as possible. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 14:19:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Nazi and Occult Dylan Fierro has asked for references to any connections between Nazi and Occult groups or practices. There are some references to this in Michael Brown _The Final Hour_. He remarks that HItler was heavily influenced by New Templars, Theosophists, Rosicrucians and a cult called the Thule society whose leader was Guido von List, a user of the swastika symbol. This symbol he says dates to the Bronze age and is an occult symbol associated with the goddess Kali. He quotes one of Hitler's favorite poems on Wotan and dark powers. He goes no futher to note that Hitler was advised by Erik Jan Hanussen, a seer and astrologer. He says Hitler himself described himself as a occultist. Then there is discussion of the "spear of Longinus" . Further on he says that Hess and Himmler were members of the Thule Society. Hope this helps. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:24:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: BOOKS: _Six Armies in Normandy_ I always get a kick out of Keegan's introduction to the book, wherein he describes his own childhood fantasies about Britain, the Empire, Hitler, and the reality of US dominated geo-politics. I generally read portions to my class, and they invariably get the biggest kick out of Keegan's rather perceptive insights into the American character. You can sense that he wrote the book, in part at least, conscious of an American readership. The "American occupation" of Britain through the eyes of an eight year-old entrance, and Keegan successfully translates that experience into his growing realization about the role of the US v. Britain in the war. Good stuff.... Steve Fox (foxs@axe.humboldt.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 15:33:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan Subject: Fatherland I recently read the novel _Fatherland_ by Robert Harris. I was just curious as to what others thought of the novel and how it depicted 1964 Nazi Germany. I thought that Harris definitely did his homework on the Wannsee Conference and this part seemed real. Although, I was unsure as to exactly why the truth leaking out about the Holocaust would have destroyed that society. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 15:05:13 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 02 FEB 1994 22:47:14 CST I have a pretty good copy of "Kelly's Heroes" so I can bring it, although I don;t have a TV and VCR I can bring with me. Besides, I won;t have room considering my car is usually full anyway on these trips. I could also bring my cat Felix. I've told Joe this story, and now I'll tell to everyone else---Kelly's Heroes was on one Saturday TV one Saturday and my 3 month old kitten was walking by the TV, when he stopped and started staring at the TV. He was so interested in "Kelly's Heroes", he just sat there and watched it for about an hour. Getting a 3 month old kitten to do anything for an hour is amazing in itself. I didn;t think too much of it, until it was on again a couple of days later (and I was watching it--imagine that!!!) when he went walking by the TV and sat down and started watching it again. He watched it for about a half hour, when a commercial came on. He walked away during the commercial, and came back about 5 minutes later and watched another 20 minutes before leaving the room. I knew at that moment that cat and I had more than just a residence in common. I guess he likes tiger tanks (he's a red tabby--looks just like Morris the Cat) I've got the movie if you've got the VCR. ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 19:03:23 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: <199402031916.AA03669@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Joe Barone" at Feb 3, How about inviting MILHST-L and CONSIM-L? Ft. Leavenworth (and its historians and wargamers) is just across MO. Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 22:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Army Green Book Series question I made a trip to the GPO outlet in Laurel today and picked up some more Green Books. Organization Of Army Ground Forces was available again ( It was out of stock when I was there a few months ago). I figured it would have a lot of 'structure' information in it and picked it up. It has a whole section in it devoyed to a table entitled "Ground Forces in the Army" which purports to be a statistical study of ground forces organization. There are ~25 pages of notes and explination of this table. The problem is THE TABLE ISN'T THERE!!! There is an oblique page number reference which points to the beginning of the section. My question is has anyone else run across this and found an answer? Is the table a seperate document? Is it available from some other source? Should I have gotten it and didn't ( the GPO folks seemed lost on this and the one guy who has been of some help in the past wasn't there today) The book was originally compiled in 1947. this one has a 1987 date on the title page. Could the table have been dropped somehow when it was reprinted? As an aside The June 25,1993 Military History Subject Bibliography is still the most current. Breakout and Pursuit & The Last Offensive were both out of stock. B&P was listed as 'Not Available' TLO as 'Exhausted' I'm not sure what the difference is. If I get a chance I'll call them and see if they know :-) The funny thing is B&P was out of stock several months ago but was listed in a new glossy catlogue they had there today. I was hoping that It was back in stock for the 50th Anniversry. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 23:12:54 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Dive Bombers Yes, by 1945 most SBD's had been replaced by Helldivers, but there were some Marine Squadrons who continued to fly them through out the war. I can't give specifics, but I have read this (and seen pictures) in the histories of specific Marine Squadrons that are usually available at a decent Government Depsoitory Library. Heck, even the library at Dickinson State University had some. :-) So it is possible (I'm not saying it is a fact, however) that SBD's could have seen action at Iwo Jima. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 07:58:22 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of 07:50458:2 19 24:00:00 CST I have no problems with inviting people from other lists. I am not on the other lists, so if anyone else is on them, have at it. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 1 This is from the Providence Sunday Journal from January. It was written by Gerald M. Carbone, a staff writer and is reproduced without permission. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a recovery operation that featured suspense, mystery and a surprise twist, a rare World War II airplane that crashed into Nantucket Sound nearly 50 years ago was raised from the sea floor yesterday. Salvagers working for the Quonset Air Museum at Quonset Point, North Kingstown, RI, began the recovery thinking they had found a Grumman Hellcat that ditched into the sea on Aug. 15, 1944, causing no harm to the pilot -- but they soon discovered their assumption was wrong. Larry Webster of Charlestown, RI, an engineer who specializes in identifying vintage aircraft wrecks, shocked the salvage team yesterday morning when he declared: "I'm gonna tell you right now, I don't believe this is the airplane we thought it was." Divers recovered a chunk of the plane's tail on Friday, and Webster scraped through layers of coral, seaweed and silt that had cloaked the plane for years before he uncovered the serial numbers 5612 and 5597. "That's not consistent with what we believed," he said. The story that unfolded on the state pier yesterday actually began in June, when the Air National Guard was scouting Martha's Vineyard in preparation for President Clinton's vacation visit. A pilot saw the outline of a plane on the sea floor 10 miles east of Oak Bluffs, and he radioed for a diver to probe the wreck. Robert Nevin, who owns Fathom Divers in Edgartown, plunged into the sea and discovered the old Hellcat in 20 feet of water. The plane was resting on its cockpit in the shoals of Nantucket Sound, where currents routinely whip up "sandstorms" along the shallow bottom. A long conga eel lived in one of the wings, and the plane was studded with coral, barnacles, green anenomes and red seaweed. Nevin contacted Webster, who checked his records and concluded that this Hellcat probably hit the sea on Aug. 15, 1944; but he cautioned that he couldn't be sure until divers brought him a serial number. But the journey to snare a serial number turned out to be as perilous as Dorothy's quest for the Wicked Witch's broomstick. Nevin teamed with Rick Fryburg of Subsalve USA, a Providence firm that builds inflatable bags to lift wrecks from the ocean floor, and together they made several attempts to raise the plane. They battled shifting sands, vicious currents and the conga eel. But on Friday, a combination of good weather and slack seas allowed the divers to slip airbags around the plane. When Fryburg inflated them, the plane left the sea floor for the first time in nearly half a century. One wing, the tail and the engine dropped off, but the cockpit and fuselage were intact. Vineyard Haven skipper Dale McClure then gingerly towed the wreck to the state pier in Oak Bluffs. McClure hitched the 9,000-pound Hellcat to the pilings Friday night, and yesterday he planned to haul it onto the pier with his big red crane. "The plan is to drop it on its back and see how to goes," Fryburg said at noon yesterday, as he prepared to jump in the water to hook the Hellcat to the crane. "After that tow yesterday, we don't know what kind of condition it's in. The wing's going to come off, though. You know it's going to come off." Damon Ise, president of the Quonset Air Museum, paced the pier like an expectant father as he waited for McClure to haul the plane up. "This is a life's dream," Ise said. "You don't see this happen too often. Now if we can just start finding the stuff in Narragansett Bay, we'll be all set." When Fryburg gave the signal, McClure fired up the crane; the crane's boom bent low like a fishing rod; cable squealed under the Hellcat's weight. With the serial numbers intact, Webster now knew which plane it was: the Hellcat F6F-5 piloted by Ensign Vincent A. Frankwitz on April 3, 1945. Frankwitz was flying with a squadron out of the Charlestown Naval Auxiliary Air Facility when he radioed that his engine had lost oil pressure, and he was going into the drink. Other pilots saw the plane hit Nantucket Sound with a splash; they saw Frankwitz step onto the wing; and then he disappeared. His body never was found, and his name is one of 59 inscribed on a monument honoring pilots who died at Charlestown between 1943 and the air station's closing, this year. As the cables groaned, Webster had a nightmarish vision of Frankwitz's bones being tangled up in the wreck and falling onto the pier. "Pick it right up. Pick it right up," Fryburg yelled from the water. "The wing came off." An overpowering smell of sulfur wafted over the pier when the plane broke the surface. The Hellcat rained mud, fish and crabs as it swung over the pier -- but there was no sign of Ensign Frankwitz. "It's a little worse than I expected," Webster said as he inspected the Hellcat's frame. "But you look down there and you see some good stuff," such as the .50-caliber machine guns on the wing stubs, the plexiglass windows and the joystick in the cockpit. "That's a good shell there." Volunteers from the Quonset Air Museum will begin dismantling the frame today; they'll strap the plane to a flatbed truck sometime next week and take it to Quonset, where the plane will spend the rest of the month in a giant steam tent to leach salt and kill growth. Workers will remove the growth with a chemical solvent that will bare the plane's steel skin for display at the museum. "This plane has historical value because it's an untouched original," Webster said. "You can look at this and say, this is the way it really was. This is the real stuff -- the real colors, the real equipment. What it does is it brings back Vincent Frankwitz to memory. He was a forgotten individual; now he's remembered again. His loss of life is not forgotten." -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Crap Game: Zowie-bozza! Have yourself a drink! How many more of these are there? Kelly: 14,000... Crap Game: 14,000 gold bars! Where are they? Kelly: In a bank... Crap Game: In a bank?! Aren't you getting a little ambitious? Kelly: ...behind enemy lines. Crap Game: Behind enemy lines... This could be the perfect crime! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 22:06:37 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Society of Military History In-Reply-To: <9402032322.AA37826@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Thu, 3 Feb 1994, John Sloan wrote: > The great idea for a meeting at St. Louis prompts me to mention that the > Society of Military History annual meeting will be in Washington DC in April Does anybody have the exact dates for this meeting and an address for the society. Thanks in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:10:41 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jon Stevens Subject: Re: Nazism & the Occult Dylan, Have you heard of the book _Spear of Destiny_ by Trevor Ravenscroft? This book thoroughly examines the connection of Nazism and the Occult\New Age\Anti-Christain. The author is British and a veteran of WWII. A friend read this and says it is the ultimate book on this subject. It explores the religious and philosophical roots of Nazism including things like the spear of Longinus, theosophy, and all that other scary stuff. It was published in 1973 but I saw it a couple months ago in the University of Illinois at Chicago bookstore so it would seem to be available. I would describe it more but don't have the book handy. Anyhow it is a must read on this subject. Jon Stevens -- E-mail jstevens@david.wheaton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: Foo Fighters This topic reminded me of this book that I bought five or six years ago from the Military Book Club. It was called *German Jet Genesis*. I don't remember the author, and the book is packed away in a box about two hundred miles away from my present location. Anyway there was one small section in the book about a German "flying saucer" program. According to the author, the Germans were making plans to make one. It sounds rather farfetched, but has anyone else ever ran into information on a project of this sort? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:40:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: B-29s vs. Baka bombs: Akira? In-Reply-To: <199401312137.AA13039@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Crane Conrad LTC" at J Fascinating. Here we have John Lundstrom (published/foremost? authority on (naval) air operations in the Pacific) and Con Crane (newly published authority on American bombing policy/ history) squaring off over whether the Japanese did or did not use Baka bombs against B-29s over Japan. I feel like a PT Boat in Ironbottom Sound scuttling out of the way of Willis Augustus "Ching" Lee and his battlewagons, as they prepare to decide the possession of Gualdalcanal with the Tokyo Express. (When controversy arises about the Russian Front, maybe it will be my turn to be a battlewagon.) Although "Ching" Crane seems to have some credible sources, trying to hit a B-29 with a high-speed/low-maneuverability(?) Baka would seem prohibitively/obviously futile. Akira, do YOU have the decisive sources to resolve this? I don't suppose there is a Baka pilots reunion group extant. :-) Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:58:09 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Army Green Book Series question Bob, I have a suggestion for you. Rather than get BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT, buy Martin Blumenson's new version THE BATTLE OF THE GENERALS. It just came out. He told me that this version would be more critical of Allied leadership, and it surely is. It is published by William Morrow. It does not have the tactical detail of the Green Book, but I still highly recommend it. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 14:16:15 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 1 Joe, Thank you very much for sharing that story of Ensign Frankewitz. A sad story, to be sure, but a happy ending in some ways. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 This is from the January 19 issue of the Newport Daily News. It was written by Carolyn Thompson of the AP and is reproduced without permission. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A vintage Navy fighter plane faces an uncertain future in the hands of the U.S. government, now that the Quonset Air Museum has given up its fight to keep it. When the museum pulled the F6F-5 Hellcat from the waters off Martha's Vineyard last month, nearly 50 years after it went down, officials of the museum saw the crowning jewel of their developing displays. But amid Navy threats to prosecute them for stealing government property, museum officials say they will ship the aircraft to the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Fla., in the next several weeks. While conceding that the museum broke the law when it plucked the plane from the shallow ocean floor without first notifying the Navy, museum president Damon Ise maintains that it was a rescue mission. Unauthorized divers had already began to pillage the wreckage and shifting currents had begun to expose the craft, he said. The Navy appreciates the 1,200 hours and $3,500 the museum has devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. But allowing the museum to keep this Hellcat, even when the Navy has no immediate plans for it and lacks a budget to restore it, would set a dangerous precedent, he said. "I hate to use a cliche but it was the principle of the thing," Vance said. "They went out and grabbed a piece of government property, essentially. ... If they're allowed to retain the aircraft ... we'd have the same problem (with some other craft or shipwreck) later this year." Ise said he agreed to return the aircraft to the Navy during a meeting with Navy officials in Washington on Friday. "We just mistakenly did not notify them ahead of time," he said. "There was never any attempt to deprive the Navy of ownership. We were worried about the ultimate safety of the airplane." Even so, he said, the Navy was unwilling to let the museum go ahead with the restoration, despite an offer to display it with a plaque saying it was property of the Navy. Ise said he believed the aircraft would be allowed to "dissolve into a pile of dust" once it was returned to the Navy because "they need another Hellcat in Pensacola like they need a hole in the head. "I doubt the preservation effort will continue," he said. The Pensacola museum already has two retored Hellcats. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there? Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band! Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for? Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:48:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:31:22 -0500 from >> devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy >> director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that >> the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. Perhaps some well written letters directed to the proper authorities can help correct this situation. National Warplane Museum Ron Babuka Geneseo, New York Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:59:48 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Julian E Gomez Subject: Re: Fatherland >I recently read the novel _Fatherland_ by Robert Harris. I was just curious >as to what others thought of the novel and how it depicted 1964 Nazi Germany. >I thought that Harris definitely did his homework on the Wannsee Conference >and this part seemed real. Although, I was unsure as to exactly why the truth >leaking out about the Holocaust would have destroyed that society. > > Ryan I suggest that any more discussion of this be carried out in private, or at least formatted so that people who don't want the book "spoiled" can easily skip the message. "I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist." Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez Apple Computer, Inc. 408/862-1289 or 996-1010 jeg@apple.com julian.g@applelink.apple.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 20:10:54 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Society of Milit... Re: the annual meeting of Society for Military History Sorry, I guess I should have provided full information in the first place. The meetin will be April 8-10 at the Hyatt Regency HOtel in Bethesda Md. the program chairman is Timothy Nenninger at PO Box 4762, Mc Lean VA 22103. President of the Socity is Roy Flint who lives in GA. But the best address I think is through the Journal of Military History, editor is Henry Bausum and address is George C Marshal Library at Virginia Military INstitute, Lexington VA 24450-1600. They publish an excellent, refered, scholarly quarterly journal and a newsletter. Another organization folks might be interested in is the Unites States commission on Military History whose address is PO Box 4816 Annapolis MD 21403. This is a much smaller group, but the one that represents the US at the annual international colloquies and in various other ways. I should mention also in case some list members don't have the address, there is the World War Two Studies Association of which the chairman is Donald Detwiler and the secretary is Robert Wolfe at the Battle of Normandy Foundation 1730 Rhode Island AVD N.W. Washington DC 20036. They also publish a nice quarterly newsletter that contains a wealth of information about new developments in the study of the war. HOpe this helps JOhn Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 12:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Fatherland In-Reply-To: The best part of Fatherland was the bet about president Kennedy. Very perceptive. Just my $0.02 worth. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 12:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: David Rising Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Fatherland In-Reply-To: Oops, that's "bit" about President Kennedy. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 13:59:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 04 FEB 1994 05:31:22 EST > Dear all- What a shame that Navy Brass is worshiping at the alter of form over substance. Anyone on the list have any influence to stop this plane from just rusting away? - Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY jzml@maristb.marist.edu > When the museum pulled the F6F-5 Hellcat from the waters off > Martha's Vineyard last month, nearly 50 years after it went down, > officials of the museum saw the crowning jewel of their developing > displays. > > But amid Navy threats to prosecute them for stealing government > property, museum officials say they will ship the aircraft to the > National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Fla., in the next > several weeks. > > While conceding that the museum broke the law when it plucked > the plane from the shallow ocean floor without first notifying the Navy, > museum president Damon Ise maintains that it was a rescue mission. > Unauthorized divers had already began to pillage the wreckage and > shifting currents had begun to expose the craft, he said. > > The Navy appreciates the 1,200 hours and $3,500 the museum has > devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy > director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that > the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. > > But allowing the museum to keep this Hellcat, even when the > Navy has no immediate plans for it and lacks a budget to restore it, > would set a dangerous precedent, he said. > > "I hate to use a cliche but it was the principle of the thing," > Vance said. "They went out and grabbed a piece of government property, > essentially. ... If they're allowed to retain the aircraft ... we'd > have the same problem (with some other craft or shipwreck) later this > year." > > Ise said he agreed to return the aircraft to the Navy during > a meeting with Navy officials in Washington on Friday. > > "We just mistakenly did not notify them ahead of time," he said. > "There was never any attempt to deprive the Navy of ownership. We > were worried about the ultimate safety of the airplane." > > Even so, he said, the Navy was unwilling to let the museum > go ahead with the restoration, despite an offer to display it with > a plaque saying it was property of the Navy. > > Ise said he believed the aircraft would be allowed to "dissolve > into a pile of dust" once it was returned to the Navy because "they > need another Hellcat in Pensacola like they need a hole in the head. > > "I doubt the preservation effort will continue," he said. > > The Pensacola museum already has two retored Hellcats. > -- > Joe Barone > m1b@ssd.ray.com > Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there? > Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band! > Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for? > Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 17:02:15 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Doug McCabe Subject: Historical Research Agency Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 05-Feb-1994 04:50pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" ) From: Doug McCabe Dept: Library MCCABE Tel No: (614) 593-2715 Subject: Historical Research Agency A special thanks to Bill Huber for suggesting to me that I contact the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery, AL. This was in reference to my question about the accidental bombing of Nijmegen in Feb 1944 and reports that low-flying bombers were also in on the action. I went to Montgomery last Wednesday and Thursday and looked at all the squadron and group records of the IX Bomber Command. From what I can tell no one in IX AF was near Nijmegen. (Only planes from VIII AF made the unfortunate mistake of bombing the city and killing 900 people.) The only other possibility of proving the 250 eyewitnesses to the low-flyers right is that the planes they saw were British. I doubt I'll be the one lucky enough to go to England to chase down _that_ thread. I must say, the facility at Maxwell is very nice and the people were very helpful, especially Marvin Fisher. The original documents they have there are wonderful and mainly cover WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. I highly recommend the agency if you need to study original documents on air force operations. Doug dmccabe1@ohiou.edu Received: 05-Feb-1994 05:02pm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 22:55:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Re: Military ranks Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Re: Military ranks System: QUIK-COMM Date: Thu 3-Feb-94 22:55 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 21:11:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov System: QUIK-COMM Date: Thu 3-Feb-94 21:11 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 01:49:40 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: B-29s vs. Baka bombs: Akira? > Fascinating. Here we have John Lundstrom (published/foremost? > authority on (naval) air operations in the Pacific) and > Con Crane (newly published authority on American bombing policy/ > history) squaring off over whether the Japanese did or did not > use Baka bombs against B-29s over Japan. > it will be my turn to be a battlewagon.) > > Although "Ching" Crane seems to have some credible sources, trying > to hit a B-29 with a high-speed/low-maneuverability(?) Baka would > seem prohibitively/obviously futile. One possible explanation: It is not very well known, but the Japanese were developing some air-to-air missiles during WWII. Information about them seems to be very scarce -- Bill Gunston puts them in a tiny box in his 'encyclopedia of rockets and missiles'. Could the B-29 have witnessed an experimental attack with such weapons? Of course much smaller than a 'Baka', but they would have been lauched by bombers. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 23:40:24 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Military ranks I received a very garbled message titled Military ranks with no text that I can find. Whoever sent it please retransmit John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 23:48:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Gehlen, Irving, and ... This is the second message received tonight without text - just a lot of routing information. Hope yo ucan fix the system John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 08:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Kamphaus Subject: Can someone help this guy? I saw this on the ROOTS-L Genealogy Forum and knew that someone on this list would have the answer. Text follows: From: philipp@pioneer.uspto.gov On: 02/07/94 06:39 Subject: B-24 Liberator LADY BE GOOD I am looking for information reguarding the last crew of the B-24 Liberator called LADY BE GOOD that crash landed in the Lybian desert in 1943. I am researching Harold Ripslinger. Please email me directly at philipp@pioneer.uspto.gov Thanks Tim *****End of original message******* Thanks, Kevin Kamphaus usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 09:15:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MBURKE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET Subject: Manuscripts Solicited Manuscripts Solicited I would like to bring to the attention of interested authors a new series of critical biographies, Signpost Books, that invites proposals and inquiries. The Signpost series is committed to making contemporary historical research available to a broad audience of readers; we are interested in good writing as well as the latest in scholarship. Biographies in the Signpost series will reflect the diversity of the human experience by including the stories of men and women from different cultures and different social positions, from the prominent to the forgotten. Studies of those who protested their age are as welcome as those who guided it. The editors are particularly interested in the lives of individuals whose accomplishments spanned a variety of activities, and who lived prior to the twentieth century. Combined Books, Inc., publisher of the projected series, is a dynamic young independent publisher with a well-established reputation in military history. Signpost Books represents a bold new initiative that will complement its past successes in making the past come alive for interested readers. Inquiries should be directed to me, Michael Burke, Editorial Director of the series: Signpost Books Combined Books, Inc. 151 E. Tenth Ave. Conshohocken, PA 19428 INTERNET: MBURKE@VILL.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:07:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 3-6 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES THURSDAY 3 FEBRUARY TO SUNDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine Ventura, Lockheed THURSDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-38s attack bridges, encampments, and buildings along the Prome-Taungup road; 1 bridge is knocked out and another damaged; a tugboat is sunk at Akyab; 14 A-36s and a B-25 attack troops and camp area at Kumnyen and Lalawng Ga, and hit a motor pool and repair depot at Shingban; 16 P-51s hit an encampment at Sawnghka. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 206: 553 of 671 B-17s hit the port area at Wilhelmshaven, Germany; another 56 hit the Emden area; and 1 hits Oldenburg; 1.8 million leaflets are dropped by B-17s; 193 B-24s are dispatched but they abort the mission over the Zuider Zee due to clouds; 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft are claimed; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 47 B-17s are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 42 MIA. Escort is provided by 74 P-38s, 508 P-47s of the Eighth and Ninth Air Force and 50 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 8-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost, 3 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 13 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 9 MIA. Mission 207: 7 of 7 B-17s drop 420 bundles of leaflets on Paris, Rouen, Amiens, Reims, Orleans and Rennes, France at 2110-2146 hours; no losses. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): The 358th Fighter Group at Raydon becomes operational with P-47s. This is the first of 17 fighter groups which are to be added by 9 May 44 to the Ninth Air Force, which previously had only 1 fighter group, the 354th at Boxted with P-51s. 52 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites on the W coast of France. Weather causes 100+ other aircraft to abandon the mission. 380th Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, transfers from Keevil to Rivenhall, England with P-51s, first mission on 24 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24s, finding the primary target obscured by bad weather, bomb targets of opportunity (railroad yards and stations) at Stimigliano and Sulmona; other B-24s return to base without bombing; P-47s fly a fighter sweep over the Prato-Pontassieve area. 154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group attached to Fifteenth Air Force, arrives at Oran, Algeria from Bari, Italy with P-38s, first mission as a weather reconnaissance unit on 13 Feb. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Medium bomber missions are all aborted. In Italy, A-36s hit roads and other targets S of Rome, destroying or damaging numerous trucks and bombing the towns of Sezze and Fondi as US ground forces meet strong resistance in their drive toward Cassino; P-47s hit Manopello and railroad facilities at Sulmona; and fighters patrol the Anzio area. HQ 332d Fighter Group and 100th Fighter Squadron arrive at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s, first mission on 19 Feb. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands bomb and strafe Mille Atoll, Marshall Islands. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive-bomber strike on Tobera; 15 B-24s with P-38 and USN fighter escort bomb the airfield at Lakunai; Allied aircraft claim 13 Japanese interceptors downed during the 2 strikes. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, nearly 100 B-24s and B-25s, supported by P-38s, P-40s and P-47s, pound airfields in the Wewak area; about 8O aircraft are destroyed on the ground and in the air; A-20s attack Alexishafen and the Hansa Bay areas; P-39s and B-25s on armed reconnaissance hit trucks at Erima, barges on the New Britain coast, shipping in the N Bismarck Sea, and Momote and Hyane Harbor on Los Negros Island. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 3d Bombardment Group (Light) from Dobodura to Nadzab; 25th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Brisbane, Australia to Lae with F-5s, first mission on 5 Feb; 673d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), from Cape Sudest to Dobodura with A-20s, first mission on 25 Mar. FRIDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 P-51s strafe runways and buildings at Indaw, Burma. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 208: 589 B-17s and 159 B-24s are dispatched to attack industry and railroad yards at Frankfurt/ Main, Germany; 346 B-17s and 27 B-24s hit the target; due to weather and navigational problems, 122 B-17s hit Giessen, 51 B-17s hit Wiesbaden, 17 B-24s hit the Trier area, 15 B-24s hit the Arloff area, 2 B-24s hit the Russelheim area, 1 B-24 hits Grafenhausen, 1 B-24 hits Darmstadt, 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 hit Koblenz and 26 B-24s and 23 B-17s hit unknown targets; they claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 18 B-17s and 2 B-24s are lost, 2 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 359 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 20 WIA and 203 MIA. Escort is provided by 56 P-38s, 537 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 8-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 5 P-38s and 4 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 MIA. Mission 209: 7 of 7 B-17s drop 319 bundles of leaflets on Lorient, Tours, Nantes, Raismes, Lille and Cambrai, France and Antwerp, Belgium at 2102-2132 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Major General Otto P Weyland becomes Commanding General, XIX Air Support Command. HQ 313th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Trapani/Milo Airfield, Sicily to Folkingham, England. US STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE: The abbreviation for this unit is changed from USSAFE to USSTAF. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, B-17s bomb Antheor viaduct and Toulon harbor; B-24s are forced by bad weather to return bombs to base; many of the B-17s returning from the Toulon raid are forced to land at various friendly fields because of unsafe flying conditions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather prevents all medium, light and fighter-bomber missions; P-40s and Spitfires maintain patrols over the Anzio area, where a strong German counter-offensive had been launched during the night of 3/4 Feb. Detachment of 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, operating from Ghisonaccia with Beaufighters transfers to Borgo, Corsica; squadron is based at Elmas, Sardinia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft based in the Gilbert Islands bomb targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-24s, flying from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island, bomb Wotje, Maloelap and Mille Atolls; B-25s from Tarawa and Abemama Island also hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; P-40s based on Makin Island bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 25 B-25s, escorted by 40+ fighters, pound the airfield at Tobera; 18 B-24s, covered by 30+ P-38s and USN fighters, hit the airfield at Vunakanau. HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Guadalcanal Island to Munda, New Georgia Island. 68th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, transfers from Fiji to Bougainville Island, Solomon Islands with P-38s. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In the Moluccas Islands, B-24s and B-25s carry out small raids against Laha on Ambon Island, Namlea on Buru Island and Amboina on Ambon Island. In New Guinea, 170+ B-24s, A-20s. and B-25s bomb But and Dagua Airfields, Marienberg and the Madang- Alexishafen area; P-39s bomb and strafe Atemble and strafe targets of opportunity in the Alexishafen area. 672d, 674th and 675th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), transfer from Cape Sudest to Dobodura, New Guinea with A-20s, first mission on 25 Mar. SATURDAY, 5 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 6 B-24s and 16 P-38s join USN aircraft to fly air cover in several relays during retirement of US light cruisers and destroyers following bombardment of installations in the Kurabu Cape-Musashi Bay areas; shortly afterwards, the aircraft also photograph and attack installations at Paramushiru and Shimushu. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma during the early morning hours, 8 B-24s bomb the airfield at Heho while 6 others hit Aungban Airfield; 9 B-25s follow with strikes on Heho, Sagaing and Myittha Airfields. During the daylight hours 14 fighter-bombers hit the marshalling yard at Wuntho; during the night of 5/6 Feb, 9 B-24s again hit Heho and 4 bomb Aungban. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-24s during the night of 5/6 Feb bomb Bangkok, Thailand. 3 others hit Nakhon Nayok and an unidentified airfield on the Mekong River both in French Indochina. 2 B-24s and 2 B-25s attack a convoy E of Hong Kong and claim 2 freighters and 3 smaller cargo vessels sunk. In Burma, 4 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe a big wagon and truck column N of Hsenwi; 4 others bomb and strafe Hopang, causing large fires in the village. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): In view of the previous decision to concentrate most of the training activities of the Eighth Air Force in the VIII Air Force Composite Command, a decision is made to transfer HQ from Limavady, County Derry, Ireland, to Cheddington, England, to bring it closer to the combat crew training stations over which it is to be given supervision. Most of the transfer is completed between 7 and 15 Feb. Mission 210: Airfields in France are targetted. 103 B-17s are dispatched to Chateauroux/Martinerie and Avord Airfields with 50 hitting each target; 121 B-17s are dispatched to Chateaudun (61 bomb) and Orleans/Bricy (60 bomb) Airfields; 182 B-17s are dispatched to Romilly-sur-Seine air depot but 133 hit Villacoublay; 103 B-24s are dispatched to Meslay Airfield (90 bomb) and 8 hit Chateaudun; they claim 5-0-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 39 B-17s and 31 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 15 WIA and 22 MIA. Escort is provided by 92 P-38s, 496 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 46 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 6-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47s are lost, 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged; casualties are 2 MIA. Mission 211: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets during a CARPETBAGGER mission on Ghent, Monceau-sur-Sambre, Antwerp and Brussels, Belgium at 2026-2037 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 180 B-26s attack 6 V-weapon sites in N France. HQ 437th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Balderton to Ramsbury, England. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Terni marshalling yard, and A-20s hit the Lanuvio and Piedimonte areas. P-40s and A-36s hit road junctions at Cisterna di Latina, Vetralla, and Velletri, bomb the towns of Vetralla, Ardea, and Villa Santa Lucia degli Abruzzi, and attack motor transport at several points, including areas N, NE and SE of Rome. 58th, 59th and 60th Fighter Squadrons, 33d Fighter Group, begin a movement from Cercola, Italy to India with P-40s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands dive-bomb and strafe oil storage area, radio facilities, and small craft at Jaluit Atoll; P-39s strafe runways on Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 24 P-40s join 40+ USN fighters in covering a strike by more than 60 USN dive bombers on Lakunai, New Britain Island. This strike is followed by an attack of 13 B-24s, with 30+ P-38 and USN fighter escort, on the same target. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 70+ B-25s and A-20s attack the Hansa Bay area; 48 B-24s pound Hoskins Airfield, and some also bomb Gasmata Island off New Britain Island, after weather prevents an attack on Kavieng, New Ireland Island. B-24s fly a light raid on Kaimana, New Guinea. B-25s on armed reconnaissance in the W Bismarck Sea claim 1 freighter sunk; others bomb wrecked ships off New Hanover Island. SUNDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 P-51s hit warehouses and freight cars at Wuntho, Burma and claim 4 warehouses destroyed. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe sampans and power launches between Yoyang and Puchi, China. 6 B-25s knock out bridges and damage 3 trains at Anxuan, Tien An, Phong Loc and Dong Hoi, French Indochina. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 212: Airfields in France are targetted but weather forces 400+ bombers to abort the mission. 189 B-17s are dispatched against the Romilly-sur-Seine Air Depot and 60 hit St Andre de L'Eure Airfield and 40 hit Evreux/Fauville Airfield; 303 B-17s are dispatched to Nancy/Essay and Dijon/Longvic Airfields but only 60 hit Caen/Carpiquet Airfield; 150 B-24s are dispatched to St Pol/Siracourt V-weapon site but 37 hit Chateaudun Airfield and 9 hit the Eclimeux V-weapon site; they claim 3-3-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 43 B-17s and 7 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 3 WIA and 43 MIA. Escorting are 85 P-38s, 506 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 47 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 11-2-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 2-0-7 on the ground; 3 P-38s and 1 P-47 are lost, 1 P-38 and 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 4 MIA. Mission 213: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 363 leaflet bundles in a CARPETBAGGER mission over Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent, Liege and Monceau-sur-Sambre, Belgium at 2202-2225 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 120 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites, airfields, and a factory, all in France; principal targets bombed are at Rosieres-en-Santerre, Amiens/Glisy, Cormeilles-en-Vexin, and Grandvilliers. Transfers in England: 34th Troop Carrier Squadron, 315th Troop Carrier Group, from Wilford to Spanhoe (air echelon is operating from Blida, Algeria with C-47s); 83d, 84th, 85th and 86th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 437th Troop Carrier Group, from Balderton to Ramsbury with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather restricts operations to photographic and weather reconnaissance flights. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the Orte marshalling yard while B-25s hit the Frascati road junction; A-20s bomb the Campoleone railroad station and the town of Roccasecca; P-40s bomb Cisterna di Latina, Santa Lucia (near Campoleone), Cori (and nearby road junction) and Atina; A-36s hit San Stefano al Mare, Cisterna di Latina, Frascati and Albano Laziale, and strike numerous vehicles, railroad cars and other targets of opportunity on armed reconnaissance missions N and S of Rome. A German counteroffensive against the Anzio beachhead and on the Cassino front forces an Allied withdrawal. HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) begin a movement from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to India with B-25s. HQ 33d Fighter Group begins a movement from Cercola, Italy to India. HQ 350th Fighter Group transfers from Sardinia to Corsica; 345th Fighter Squadron based in Sardinia begins operating from Corsica with P-39s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, B-24s from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands hit Maloelap and Wotje Atolls; A-24s and P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands attack Mille Atoll; Tarawa-based P-39s strafe Jaluit Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-39s and Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's hit barges in the Green Island area. Lakunai Airfield, New Britain Island, is hit by 32 B-25s, covered by 60+ AAF and USN fighters, and shortly afterwards by 19 B-24s, escorted by nearly 50 Allied fighters; Allied aircraft claim 16 aircraft shot down; Lakunai is practically unserviceable as a result of cumulative damage. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s and B-24s pound Bunabun Harbor, Madang, and targets from Bogia to Cape Croisilles; P-39s strafe and sink barges near Nubia; and A-20s hit shipping near Kairiru and Mushu Islands causing considerable damage and destruction. Other bombers hit targets in the Admiralty Islands (concentrating on Momote on Los Negros Island) and carry out light attacks on Talasea village and Cape Dampier gun positions on New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:36:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 7 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 7 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 35th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 25th Bombardment Group (Medium), transfers from Vernam Field, Jamaica to Trinidad with B-25s. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): A single B-25 bombs a motor pool at Sumprabum, Burma. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 P-40s and 4 P-51s damage railroad bridges at Kienchang and Puchi and strafe warehouses at Teian. In French Indochina, 2 B-25s score 2 direct hits on the powerplant at Thanh Hoa, strafe nearby barracks, and attack the radio station at Vinh. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 36th and 406th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 1st Bombardment Division attached to 482d Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Alconbury to Watton (36th continues operating from Alconbury) with B-24s; the squadrons fly CARPETBAGGER missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 315th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Welford to Stanhoe, England. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather again limits operations to photographic and weather reconnaissance missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the bridge approach S of Manziana; B-25s hit the Viterbo marshalling yard and, in support of US Fifth army troops, bomb the town of Cisterna di Latina as the enemy counterattack begins in the Anzio area; A-20s hit Piedimonte and the road junction and railway station at Campoleone; A-36s hit San Stefano al Mare and nearby railroad siding, Pontecorvo and Belmonte in Sabina, plus several targets of opportunity and targets in support of ground forces in the battle areas; P-40s attack an observation tower at Littoria, trucks at Villa Santa Lucia degli Abruzzi, Campoleone, a railroad gun, the Sezze railroad yards, Cisterna di Latina and gun positions in battle areas. Fighters encounter heavy aircraft activity over the Anzio battle area and claim 16 shot down. 302d Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, arrives at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s; first mission is 17 Feb. Detachment of 346th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, based in Sardinia with P-39s, begins operating from Sidi Amor, Tunisia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Aircraft from the Gilbert Islands hit targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-25s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls and P-40s from Makin Island hit a storage area at Jaluit Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Tobera; several gun positions and grounded aircraft are hit and the runway is bombed into unserviceable condition; 11 aircraft are claimed shot down. Vunakanau Airfield is bombed by 17 B-24s, escorted by P-38s and USN fighters. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 14 B-24s bomb Amboina, Ambon Island and Lautem, Timor Island. P-39s fly strafing sweeps over New Britain Island. Single B-25s on reconnaissance bomb Garua Harbor, Cape Dampier on New Britain Island and Kavieng on New Ireland Island. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 35th Fighter Group from Nadzab to Gusap; HQ 417th Bombardment Group (Light) from Cape Sudest to Dobodura; 25th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Lae to Nadzab with F-5s; 110th Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, from Port Moresby to Gusap with P-39Qs. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 11:41:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kim Patterson-Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Alternate address for List-Owner. In-Reply-To: <9402040631.AA25735@sage.cc.purdue.edu>; from "Automatic digest processor" at Feb 4, 94 12:01 am Hi, I'm coming back up to full speed and training Kim to help with WWII-L. Note this address and save it. Currently it will be for emergencies only, but if I drop off the planet, Kim should be able to handle the list. (She's having kittens as she reads over my shoulder but she'll do alright with some practice :-). Kim's address is jewellk@sage.cc.purdue.edu and she is officially co-listowner so she speaks with my voice on matters pertaining to the list (but not on certain political matters ;-). Proofreaders standby for private mail re the book. Larry J (Kim sig under construction, needs primo MacArthur quote, got any?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 01:26:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting System: QUIK-COMM Date: Fri 4-Feb-94 1:26 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:24:41 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Death Notice To all whom it may concern! I just found out today that Colonel Carroll C. Smith, USAF, Ret., passed away 1 Jan 1994 of a massive heart attack. Colonel Smith was the top-scoring US night fighter ace during WWII. He enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1940 and retired as Deputy Chief of Operations, Air Defense Command in 1971. Colonel Smith was credited with shooting down 7 Japanese aircraft flying P-38J's and the P-61 "Black Widow". His aircraft's name was "Time's A Wastin". He was the only U.S. night fighter ace to shoot down 4 enemy aircraft at night in a single mission. Colonel Smith is buried in Barrancas National Cemetery in Orlando, Florida. He was 76 years old. It was my privelege and honor to have had him and his wife, Mahalla, in our home in June 1992 in which he told me many interesting details of his military career, and especially his flying experiences with the P-61. I hope this has been of interest. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:39:20 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: Royal Winnepeg Rifles In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST I spoke with my friend is is a reenactor of the Royal Winnepeg Rifles. He's done research on the unit for the past five years to create their impression. Chris Smead is also a First Lieutenant in the Army Reserve. Chris said that the unit did have some normal aged soldiers in it, but the vast percentage of line troops were younger than most units. He noted several members being 16, with the majority being 18-20. His conclusion of this comes from research to include photographs (they look young) to discussions with the veteran's organization. He also said a fairly good number of vet's are still around because they are on the average several years younger than most vet's. The incident regarding the SS Officer getting strapped on the front of the tank occurred during the Carpiquet Airport campaign. The unit, which he did not remember the designation (not the RWR's), strapped the SS Officer on the glacis plate of the tank, and that tank led the armored assault. Chris also added that the Canadians had an extreme distaste for the Germans, and were prone to have less sympathy for prisoners. This is a result of what occurred at Dieppe, and the Canadians just never forgave the Germans for it. (I didn't ask for more details--not sure what this means---somebody chime in if they understand). If anyone would like to dispute this information, please contact me directly and I can put you in touch with Chris. I should be getting some information together about the meeting at Jefferson Barracks, MO and have it posted by the middle of the week. It will include directions, schedule for the event, hotel information and general information. If anyone is planning to go to Oshkosh this year, it appears like the WWII Airman's Preservation Society will be putting on a mock-mission briefing. I will be the S-2 briefer, with other APS members doing the weather, and op's brief. I do not have a firm date for that yet. It will be held in their Quonset hut that is made up like a briefing room. I will pass more details as they become available. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 18:52:18 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Help... Can someone refresh my memory? I seem to remember a speech about 1939 made possibly by Chamberlain to the effect that we cannot get involved in a war in a faroff land over people about which we know nothing... My paraphrase is not so goo, I fear. But can someone give me the exact quote, who said it, and when. I wonder if we are re-living the conditions in Europe which prompted that quote... Any response??? ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 21:25:17 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <199402080125.RAA10440@netcomsv.netcom.com> Everyone has been talking about good war movies recently. I finally went to see Schindler's List last night. Then it occured to me that the film has been out for about a month, yet no one on this list has brought it up as a topic of conversation. I thought this was strange because the Holocaust has not been avoided in the past as a topic. Anyway, I was wondering what all you historians and history buffs thought of the film. Was it as historically accurate as it could have been? Did they leave to much out, or put to much in (3 1/2 hrs.)? I personally thought it was one of the most powerful films I have ever seen. Surely there is someone out there that is familiar with this epic story and can give their two cents worth. Comments? John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:12:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 8 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES TUESDAY, 8 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25s bomb bridges at Budalin and Songon, displacing a section of the former and destroying an approach to the latter; 7 others hit the stronghold at Badana; 16 A-36s and P-51s and 1 B-25 hit a camp at Mogaung; 4 P-51s strafe railroad cars NW of Myitkyina while 1 B-25 bombs a camp at Kumnyen. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 214: 53 of 54 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at Siracourt, France while 57 of 73 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at Watten, France; 41 B-24s are damaged and 10 airmen are WIA; escort is 89 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s. 88 of 236 B-17s hit the marshalling yards at Frankfurt, Germany using blind-bombing techniques; 107 other B-17s hit targets of opportunity; they claim 1-3-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 13 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; casualties are 11 KIA, 4 WIA and 130 MIA; escort is provided by 77 P-38s, 435 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 41 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 16-1-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-38s, 3 P-47s and 4 P-51s are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 4 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 9 MIA. Mission 215: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 360 bundles of leaflets in a CARPETBAGGER operation over Caen, Rouen, Paris, Rennes and Amiens, France at 2106-2136 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ Ninth Air Force extends IX Bomber Command's choice of targets considerably, although first priority for Operation POINTBLANK missions [the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) of US and RAF air forces against the Luftwaffe and German aircraft industry] and next priority for Operation CROSSBOW (code name for operations against German V-weapon sites) targets is maintained. In a morning raid, nearly 200 B-26s attack V-weapon sites and targets of opportunity in NW France. In an afternoon raid, 100+ B-26s bomb V-weapon sites and military installations in the same general area, most of the B-26s attacking Breck-sur-Mer. This is the IX Bomber Command's first 2-mission day. 494th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The 454th Bombardment Group (Heavy) with B-24s becomes operational, giving the Fifteenth Air Force 10 operational heavy bomber groups. In Italy, B-24s bomb airfields at Viterbo, Tarquinia, Orvieto, Piombino and Prato; B-17s hit the marshalling yard at Verona; P-38s and P-47s escort the Orvieto, Piombino, and Prato missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Cisterna di Latina; B-26s hit the Siena marshalling yard and warehouses, and a railway bridge NE of Civita Castellana; A-20s bomb Piedimonte; A-36s attack gun positions near Ausonia, tracks between Rome and Orte, and the town of Veroli, and fly strafing and bombing sweeps in the Anzio battle area against motor transport, gun positions, road junction E of Cisterna di Latina, and the town of Pontecorvo; P-40s hit Roccasecca, Castello, Caprile, Piedimonte, Aquino and other targets, including a supply dump and gun positions; P-47s bomb Atina; Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters [US and Royal Air Force (RAF)] destroy a large number of trucks near Sora. 301st Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, arrives at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s; first mission is 15 Feb. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Makin and Abemama Islands, Gilbert Islands hit Maloelap and Mille Atolls, Marshall Islands. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-39s over Bougainville Island bomb and strafe Tiaraka huts and bivouac area. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, nearly 50 A-20s and B-25s hit the Alexishafen and Madang areas; P-39s strafe targets of opportunity during sweeps over wide areas of NE New Guinea and New Britain Island; during the night of 8/9 Feb, B-25s bomb Toeal. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:33:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: P-47's post WWII Last week, I posted a brief history of the 47th Fighter Squadron including post-WWII service. Subsequently, Steve Alvin asked about the use of the Republic P/F-47 Thunderbolts in post-WWII USAF service and this post is an attempt to answer the questions. The last unit to fly the Jug was the 199th Fighter Squadron, Hawai ANG which converted from the F-47 to F-86 in Feb 1954. The last unit to fly the F-51 Mustang was the 167th Fighter Squadron, West Virginia ANG who operated them until 1957. The question that Steve asked was why did the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, a Regular Air Force unit, operate F-47's in 1952 and 1953. To understand this, you must go back to 8 Dec 48 when the 136th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine), New York Air National Guard, was extended federal recognition at NAS Niagara Falls, New York and soon was equipped with F-47D's. On 1 Mar 51, the 136th was activated as part of the Korean War call-up and was assigned to the Air Defense Command but remained at Niagara Falls; shortly after call-up, the squadron was redesignated the 136th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron while still flying their Jugs. On 1 Dec 52, two events occurred that explains it all. On that date, (1) the 136th was deactivated and returned to the control of New York State sans aircraft and (2) the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron was activated at Niagara Falls. The F-47D's of the 136th were simply reassigned to the 47th! The 47th, being an air defense unit, would normally have been equipped with the North American F-86D Sabre but the Sabre Dog was two years behind production schedule however, by the end of 1953, 600 Sabre Dog's had been delivered so the 47th converted from the D-model Jug to the D-model Sabre in 1953. Since there seemed to be some interest in Jugs flying after WWII, I did some more checking and came up with the following. After World War II, the USAF was constructed around funtional commands rather than theater air forces. The following major commands were activated after World War II; the information I have found on each is also listed: AIR DEFENSE COMMAND (ADC) ------------------------- Activated on 27 Mar 46. Became an operational command of Continental Air Command (CONAC) and on 1 Sep 49, the Eastern and Western Air Defense Forces (EADF and WADF), reporting directly to CONAC, assumed control over US air defense forces and ADC was discontinued on 1 Jul 50. ADC was again organized on 1 Jan 51 and again assumed responsibility for air defense which it continued until inactivated on 31 Mar 80. The following ADC wings operated Jugs after WWII: 14th Fighter Wing, Dow Field, Maine: 1947-49 33d Fighter-Interceptor Wing, Otis AFB, Massachusetts: 1951-52 (I think this was the 133d Fighter Squadron, an activated ANG unit) 52d Fighter-Interceptor Wing, McGuire AFB, New Jersey: 1951-52 (I think this was an activated ANG squadron that was assigned) 56th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, Selfridge AFB, Michigan: 1951-52 (I think this was an activated ANG squadron that was assigned) ALASKAN AIR COMMAND (AAC) ------------------------- The Eleventh Air Force was redesignated Alaska Air Command on 18 Dec 45. I have no information on piston-engine fighter usage by AAC. CONTINENTAL AIR COMMAND (CONAC) ------------------------------- Organized on 1 Dec 48 and assumed jurisdiction over ADC and the Tactical Air Command (TAC) plus all Air Force reserve units because most of these forces were to be used in either air defense or tactical operations. On 1 Dec 50, TAC was reestablished as a major command and removed from assignment to CONAC followed by ADC on 1 Jan 51 when CONAC ceased to handle the air defense mission. After 1 Jan 51, CONAC was primarily responsible for administering the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard until CONAC was inactivated on 1 Aug 68. Details on ANG piston-engine fighter units are included below; I have no information on piston-engine Air Force Reserve units. FAR EAST AIR FORCES (FEAF) -------------------------- Pacific Air Command, U.S. Army was redesignated FEAF on 1 Jan 47. The three air forces assigned to FEAF were the Fifth Air Force in Japan, the Thirteenth Air Force in the Philippines and the Twentieth Air Force on Okinawa. Prior to the Korean War, the following units operated Jugs: 18th Fighter Wing, Clark AFB, Philippines: 1948 23d Fighter Wing, Northwest Guam AFB, Guam: 1948-49 301st Fighter Wing, Naha AAB, Okinawa: 1944-48 As of 25 Jun 50 (the invasion of South Korea), the only piston-engine fighters operated by these three air forces were North American F-82 Twin Mustang all-weather fighters by the following units: 4th Fighter-All Weather Squadron (atttached to 51st Fighter-Interceptor Wing) at Naha, Okinawa 68th Fighter-All Weather Squadron (attached to 8th Fighter-Bomber Wing) at Itazuke, Japan. 339th Fighter-All Weather Squadron at Yokota, Japan. PACIFIC AIR COMMAND (PAC) ------------------------- Seventh Air Force was redesignated PAC on 15 Dec 47 and inactivated on 31 May 49. The 81st Fighter Wing at Wheeler AFB, Territory of Hawaii operated Jugs in 1948-49. STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND (SAC) --------------------------- The Continental Air Forces were redesignated SAC on 21 Mar 46. Between 1946 and 1948, SAC operated P/F-51's; the number assigned in each year was: 1946: 85 1947: 230 1948: 131 SAC did not operate any P/F-47's during these years. All single-engine piston fighters were gone by 1949. The 108th Fighter-Bomber Wing, an ANG unit with Jugs, was assigned to SAC as a training outfit after being called-up in 1951 but was transferred to TAC. TACTICAL AIR COMMAND (TAC) -------------------------- TAC was activated on 21 Mar 46 and was reassigned to CONAC as an operational command on 1 Dec 48 and TAC became involved primarily in Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard training programs and field exercises. On 20 Sep 50, TAC became an operational and administrative command under CONAC, and on 1 Dec 50, again became a major command. The following TAC units operated Jugs: 332d Fighter Wing at Lockbourne AAB/AFB, Ohio; 1947-49. 405th Fighter-Bomber Wing, Godman AFB, Ky: 1952 (The 405th replaced the 108th Fighter-Bomber Wing, an ANG outfit, at Godman AFB in Dec 52. Some of the Jugs were probably left over from the ANG.) UNITED STATES AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USAFE) ------------------------------------------ US Strategic Air Forces (USSTAF) was redesiganted USAFE on 7 Aug 45. USAFE operated both P-51's and P/F-47's after World War II. The information I have is that as of 31 Dec of the year indicated, USAFE had: 1945: Both P-47's and P-51's 1946: P-47's 1947-49: F-47's By Sep/Oct 50, USAFE became a complete jet fighter unit when the last Jugs were delivered to Erding AB for termporary storage. They were later delivered to the Italian Air Force under MDAP. One wing that operated Jugs was the 86th Fighter Wing at Neubiberg AB, Germany which operated them during 1948-50. AIR NATIONAL GUARD ------------------ Connecticut ANG --------------- 118th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 7 Aug 46 at Bradley Field, Windsor Locks and received P-47N's. Activated 1 Feb 51 and served as ADC unit at Suffolk Co AFB, NY. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 and converted to F-51H's and then to F-84D's in Jan 53. Delaware ANG ------------ 142d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 6 Sep 46 at New Castle Co Airport (now Greater Wilmington Airport); received P-47N's in Feb 47. Conveted to F-84C's in Feb 50. District of Columbia ANG ------------------------ 121st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 20 Oct 26 at Andrews AAFld, Md; received P-47D's in Feb 47. Converted to F-84C's in Dec 49. Georgia ANG ----------- 128th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition at Marietta AB (now Dobbins AFB); soon equipped with P-47N's. Activated 10 Oct 50 and began transitioning to F-84D's. Returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51H's; converted to F-84D's in Winter 1952. 158th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 13 Oct 46 at Chatham Field, Savannah; soon equipped with P-47N's. Converted to F-80C's in Summer 1948. Activated 10 Oct 50; returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51H's and converted to F-84D's in Jul 53. Hawaii ANG ---------- 199th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 4 Nov 46 at Bellow Field, Oahu; received F-47N's in Jul 47. Converted to F-86E's in Feb 54, the last USAF unit to fly the Jug. Maine ANG --------- 132d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 5 Feb 47 at Dow Field, Bangor; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-80C's in Summer 1948. Activated 1 Feb 51 and converted to F-51D's to provide air defense from Dow AFB. Returned to state control but remained at Dow AFB and converted to F-51H's until transitioning to F-94A's in Jun 54. Maryland ANG ------------ 104th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 17 Aug 46 at Harbor Field, Baltimore; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Aug 51 and back to F-51D's in Fall 1954. Last F-51D phased out by Sep 55 and left with T-33A's; re-equipped with F-86E's which were operated from Friendship Airport (now BWI). Massachusetts ANG ----------------- 101st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 15 Oct 46 at Logan Airport, Boston; soon equipped with P-47N's. Converted to F-84B's in Spring 1950; to F-51H's in Nov 51; and to F-94A/B's in Jul 54. 131st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 24 Feb 47 at Barnes Field, Westfield; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Nov 51 and to F-94A/B's in Spring 1954. Mississipppi ANG ---------------- 153d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 12 Sep 46 at Key Field, Meridian; soon equipped with P-47N's. Activated 1 Mar 51 and assigned to SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and then TAC at Godman AFB, Ky. Returned to state control on 27 Nov 52 without aircraft. Re-equipped with RF-51D's on 1 Dec 52; converted to RF-80A's in Jun 55. New Hampshire ANG ----------------- 133d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 4 Apr 47 at Grenier Field, Manchester; soon equipped with P-47D's. Activated 1 Feb 51 but remained at Grenier Field with Jugs as an ADC unit. Returned to state control 1 Nov 52 without aircraft and converted to F-51H's then to F-94A/B's in Jun 54. New Jersey ANG -------------- 119th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 29 Jan 47 at Newark MAP; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Feb 52; to F-51D's in Jul 54; and to F-86E's in May 55. 141st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 26 May 49 at Mercer Co Airport, West Trenton equipped with F-47D's; activated 1 Mar 51 and assigned to SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and then TAC at Godman AFB, Ky. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and soon re-equipped with F-51H's. Converted to F-86A's Feb 54. New York ANG ------------ 136th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 8 Dec 48 at NAS Niagara Falls; soon equipped with F-47D's. Activated 1 Mar 51 but remained at Niagara Falls as an ADC unit. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and soon converted to F-51H's and then to F-94B's in Feb 54. 137th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 24 Jun 48 at Westchester Co Airport, White Plains; soon equipped with F-47D's; Converted to F-51H's in Sep 52 and to F-94A/B's in Jun 53. 138th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 28 Oct 47 at Hancock Field, Syracuse; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-84B's in Jan 50; to F-51H's in Nov 50 and F-94A/B's in Feb 54. 139th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 18 Nov 48 at Schenectady Airport; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in 1951 and to F-94B's in 1954. North Carolina ANG ------------------ 156th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 15 Mar 48 at Morris Field, Charlotte; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Dec 49. Activated 10 Oct 50 and converted to F-84D's and then F-84E's. Returned to state control at Morris Field 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. Converted to F-86A's in Summer 1955. Pennsylvania ANG ---------------- 146th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 18 Jun 48 at Greater Pittsburgh Airport with F-47N's. Converted to F-51H's in May 51 and F-84F's in Oct 54. 147th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 22 Apr 49 at Greater Pittsburgh Airport with F-47N's. Converted to F-51H's in Oct 52 and to F-84F's in Jul 55. 148th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 27 Feb 47 at Spaatz Field, Reading with P-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Aug 50. Activated 1 Feb 51 and sent to Dover AFB, Del as an ADC unit where it converted to F-86A's and later F-94B's. Returned to state control 1 Nov 52 withut aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. The last F-51D was retired 27 Jan 57 and the unit was inactivated on 31 Oct 57. Puerto Rico ANG --------------- 198th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 23 Nov 47 at Isla Grande Airport, San Juan; soon equipped with F-47N's. Converted to F-86E's in Jul 54. Rhode Island ANG ---------------- 152d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 15 Sep 48 at TF Green Airport, Warwick with F-47D's. Converted to F-51D/H's Summer 52. Partially converted to F-84D's early 1954 but since TF Green could not support jet operations, the unit was inactivated on 19 Nov 55. Tennessee ANG ------------- 105th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 3 Feb 47 at Berry Field, Nashville MAP; soon equipped with P-47D's. Activated 1 Mar 51 and converted to F-51D's in Apr 51 and to F-82F's in May 51. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with RF-51D's; converted to RF-80A's in Sep 54. Vermont ANG ----------- 134th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 14 Aug 46 at Burlington MAP; P-47D's assigned Apr 47. Converted to F-51D's in Jul 50 and activated 1 Feb 51. Returned to state control 31 Oct 52 with F-51D's and converted to F-94A/B's in Apr 54. Virginia ANG ------------ 149th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 21 Jun 47 at Byrd Field, Richmond; soon equipped with P-47D's. Acitvated 1 Mar 51 and served with SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and TAC at Godman Field, Ky. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with B-26B/C's. West Virginia ANG ----------------- 167th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 1 Mar 47 at Kanawha Co Airport, Charleston; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Aug 48. Activated 10 Oct 50 and converted to F-84B's. Returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. Moved to Martinsburg MAP Dec 55. Partially equipped with T-28A's in Oct 56; last F-51D donated to American Legion Post on 1 Mar 57. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:44:15 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Dennis E. Sparks" Subject: Re: Schindler's List At the risk of incurring Larry's ire, I too would like to recommend the movie "Schindler's List". I am not Jewish, and have no family history that is touched by the Holocaust. I did not grow up, as Spielberg did, with older relatives recounting the events. I am not even a big Steven Spielberg fan; I've always thought his movies were okay, but didn't see what the big fuss was about. But this movie is powerful. I sat in a tiny little cramped theater with two hundred or so others, in seats that were smaller than a commuter airliner's, for three+ hours in utter silence. When the movie was over, the entire audience filed out of the theater, past the noisy throngs waiting to enter, still in utter silence. I have never experienced anything quite like it. Only several days afterwards did it occur to me to realize that a movie, no matter how well crafted, can only impart to the viewer the tiniest fraction of the horror, grief, and hatred that was the Holocaust. I leave it to others to judge the historical accuracy. I can tell you that it is one of the best examples of the cinematic art that I've ever seen. Dennis E. Sparks SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU Lexington, Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:51:12 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Help (quote) George: This sounds like it may be what you are looking for: "How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing." --(Of Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland.) Radio broadcast, 27 Sept. 1938. K. Feilin g, LIFE OF NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN, bk.iv ch.28 (from THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, 3rd ed.) Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:06:16 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal If anyone is interested, I'm reading a fascinating book that just came in. It is called THE LOST SHIPS OF GUADALCANAL, by Robert D. Ballard, and contains extremely beautiful underwater photographs (and some beautiful paintings) of all the ships that lie in deep water near Guadalcanal. The ships lie just like they did on the day they sank, with their guns pointing in all directions ready to fire. I find it unusual that there don't seem to be very many aircraft. A few lie there, but really one would think there would be many. There also are a few photos of remains of the land battles. For some reason, I have always been drawn to before and after photos of the war (hence my posting last summer of the AFTER THE BATTLE magazine that attempts to juxtapose WWII era photos with modern shots at the same location). You know the war has been over a long time when the book I mentioned is cataloged under the heading Guadalcanal Island (Solomon Islands)--Antiquities. Has anyone read this one? ************************************************************* Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 14:51:04 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal > If anyone is interested, I'm reading a fascinating book > that just came in. It is called THE LOST SHIPS OF GUADALCANAL, > by Robert D. Ballard, and contains extremely beautiful underwater > photographs (and some beautiful paintings) of all the ships that > lie in deep water near Guadalcanal. The ships lie just like they > did on the day they sank, with their guns pointing in all directions > ready to fire. I find it unusual that there don't seem to be very > many aircraft. A few lie there, but really one would think there > would be many. There also are a few photos of remains of the land > battles. For some reason, I have always been drawn to before and > after photos of the war (hence my posting last summer of the > AFTER THE BATTLE magazine that attempts to juxtapose WWII era > photos with modern shots at the same location). > You know the war has been over a long time when the book > I mentioned is cataloged under the heading Guadalcanal Island > (Solomon Islands)--Antiquities. Has anyone read this one? > ************************************************************* > Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) I've seen some of Robert D. Ballard's books before - The fellow is incredible. It seems that if there's anything underwater, he can find it. He found the Titanic, and also um The Bismarck or the Scharnhorst (can't remember which). Re After The Battle, I've heard about this magazine, (but have never read it - is it commonly available in the UK?). They produced a very good book on the Somme, and several others on WWI, "Then and Now" type books. Do they do similar for WWII? steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** Quotation "We wear Wranglers, very tight Wranglers. You gotta pack everything in there, like a freaking sardine, man. Because if there's one thing I've learned in the business, it's at least have your package looking good." Stephen Baldwin on the cowboy outfits he wears in his next film, Eight Seconds to Glory, quoted in "More!" magazine ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: from "Dennis E. Sparks" at Feb 8, 94 08:44:15 am Dennis E. Sparks writes: |-> |-> But this movie is powerful. I sat in a tiny little cramped theater |-> with two hundred or so others, in seats that were smaller than |-> a commuter airliner's, for three+ hours in utter silence. When |-> the movie was over, the entire audience filed out of the theater, |-> past the noisy throngs waiting to enter, still in utter silence. I have |-> never experienced anything quite like it. You have described my own viewing experience except in one particular -- tears. Most of the silent left with tears in their eyes. |-> |-> I leave it to others to judge the historical accuracy. I can tell you |-> that it is one of the best examples of the cinematic art that I've |-> ever seen. I'm not an expert on occurrences in Poland during WWII, but I did not detect any gross historical problems. I could not help thinking during the movie that the slave labor commandant must have been trained by Josef Stalin. Both were experts at random terror. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:39:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Wild Subject: Re: Death Notice Hats off to Col. Smith. Any brave souls going fight the crowds for the 50th D-Day anniversary? I hear the region hasn't accomodations for the crowd expected. I imagine it will be tough around the 3rd-7th. -Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:19:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal And the video, marketed also by National Geographic is one of the very best, both from a contemporary perspective AND from a historical one, since it contains much footage from the actual Guadalcanal campaign. Well worth having in your collection. Bill @ PITT N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:08:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Bataan Death March HI all, I have a student I am trying to assist, who is writing a term paper on the Bataan Death March. If anyone would be so kind as to provide a couple of favorite bibliographical references, their help would be much appreciated. If possible the references should be reasonably available in libraries we can get to. Sincerely John Sloan JohnS426@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:09:34 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 08 FEB 1994 08:51:04 CST After the Battle is readily available through Globe Militaria in Keene, NH. Also, they sell Militaria Magazine, which is an incredible publication----If you read French. I heard that it may be published in English as well starting this year for approximately $80 a year. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:41:01 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Death Notice > Any brave souls going fight the crowds for the 50th D-Day anniversary? > I hear the region hasn't accomodations for the crowd expected. I imagine > it will be tough around the 3rd-7th. -Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 > ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 > KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Alan, I had planned to but we just had a baby and she will still be too young to travel by that time. One idea for those who, like me, always come up a day late and a dollar short on things like this on the hotel situation. You might try this idea. If there are no hotels available or they are too expensive jump on a train and go anywhere, turn around and come back. If you check the schedules you can time it just right. Having a Eurail Pass helps too but you can buy the tickets at any station and the price for last minute trips is the same as if you buy in advance. You can get a sleeper if they are not all taken and they are ok. I always just crashed in 2nd class and made do. Saved a hundred bucks a night that way on many occasions. Those days may be done now that we have a baby but if your wild and free you might take it for what its worth. I always felt I could use the money more effectively at the auction or museums than for overpriced hotels. If you suspect the train will be crowded just get a reservation. You will probably have to for a sleeper. I don't know cuz the seats in 2nd class always folded down into a bed (of sorts) anyway. One word of caution, if you do this do not wear jewelry, flash money or display any neat electronics or photographic equipment. There are people who ride trains looking to share the wealth of unsuspecting tourists without their permission. Some of them use chloroform. I never had a problem because I did not flash any of the above desirable things and my luggage consisted of a beat up gym bag that housed my video camera and a WWII German ruck sack that had clothes, snacks and a canteen. Don't shave in a couple of days and generally try to look like a hard target and you won't be bothered. Get a 220/110 electric razor and clean up before arriving at your destination and you are good to go. Even the trains in Italy had electricity in the bathrooms good enough to run a razor. Just a few helpful hints from a poor historian who spent 3 years in Italy making all the fun spots of Europe on a shoestring. Maybe we can make the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge! Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:45:28 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: AFTER THE BATTLE It would be very helpful to have the exact postal address for Globe Militaria in Keene NH. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal > I've seen some of Robert D. Ballard's books before - The fellow > is incredible. It seems that > if there's anything underwater, he can find it. He found the Titanic, > and also um The Bismarck or the Scharnhorst (can't remember which). Hi Steve, It was the Bismark and your right about Ballard. Man, what a job. Wouldn't that be a hoot just cruising around looking for all kind of neat shipwrecks and such on Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute's nickle! I'd do it. > Re After The Battle, I've heard about this magazine, (but have never > read it - is it commonly available in the UK?). They produced a > very good book on the Somme, and several others on WWI, "Then and Now" > type books. Do they do similar for WWII? > > steve baldwin > smb@netmgrs.co.uk After the Battle is published in Britain so you should be able to find it. They have done then and now books on the Battle of the Bulge, Normandy (D-Day) and even the Battle of Britain. They are massive books and a bit on the pricy side so I have never bought one, but they are still in print and available through military book dealers. The magazines do good studies of battlefields, museums and other historic places from WWII. Back issues are available from them too. Seems like I saw an ad for them in the back of a _World War II_ magazine. I can dig around at home and come up with better title and publisher data if anybody is interested. BC me for further info. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:46:19 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: QUACK Subject: Re: AFTER THE BATTLE After The Battle is handled by Sky Books International out of the NYC area also. All back issues are available but their price has risen over the years. I remember when they were $3.50 each. I don't understand how they can jack up the price on material already on the shelves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: crjackson@UCDAVIS.UCDAVIS.EDU Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <9402080551.AA14541@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> It's true that the WWII discussion list has ignored the film, but the Holocaust list has been buzzing with comments on the film; most have been quite positive regarding its accuracy. Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis On Mon, 7 Feb 1994, John Behrens wrote: > Everyone has been talking about good war movies recently. I finally went > to see Schindler's List last night. Then it occured to me that the film > has been out for about a month, yet no one on this list has brought it up > as a topic of conversation. I thought this was strange because the > Holocaust has not been avoided in the past as a topic. Anyway, I was > wondering what all you historians and history buffs thought of the film. > Was it as historically accurate as it could have been? Did they leave to > much out, or put to much in (3 1/2 hrs.)? I personally thought it was > one of the most powerful films I have ever seen. Surely there is someone > out there that is familiar with this epic story and can give their two > cents worth. Comments? > > John > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 13:32:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: P-47's post WWII In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:33:00 EST from Question - were any of the F-47 used operationally in Korea? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 15:04:51 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Doug McCabe Subject: Normandy on the 50th Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 08-Feb-1994 02:41pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" ) From: Doug McCabe Dept: Library MCCABE Tel No: (614) 593-2715 Subject: Normandy on the 50th An unsubstantiated rumor (which nevertheless rings true like all unsub rumors) has it that French hoteliers cancelled all British reservations, raised their prices, and sat back waiting for rich Americans to fill up their rooms. C'est la guerre. Those of you who still would like to get to the scenes of the ETO may want to wait until September when things will be more quiet, prices lower, and travel easier. Might I humbly suggest using The Netherlands for headquarters: all is within easy driving/flying/train distances to England, France, Belgium, and Germany. (OK, KLM, did I earn my guilder commission for that plug?) While plans are still sketchy, I have a tentative schedule from the American Embassy in The Hague which notes things will begin on 14 September with a memorial service at the American cemetery near Maastricht. (If anyone wants rubbings from stones or markers let me know and I will see they are done: Dennis Sparks - your rubbing will be done at that time.) After the 14th there will be a number of services, memorials, and celebrations right up Hell's Highway to Arnhem. I plan to be at most of these as I will be in Holland from about the 3rd to who knows when. The embassy has promised to keep me up-to-date on events as they firm up and I'll be happy to post these to the List. Anyone wishing to get started now planning a trip and would like a contact in the tourism department in Nijmegen, contact me backchannel. (BTW, it looks like the Ryan Collection will be on display in three locations for the 50th anniversary of MARKET-GARDEN.) Doug McCabe Received: 08-Feb-1994 03:04pm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 14:17:35 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Schindler's List > It's true that the WWII discussion list has ignored the film, but the > Holocaust list has been buzzing with comments on the film; most have been > quite positive regarding its accuracy. > > Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis I guess because I am on the Holocaust list too I didn't notice that we had not discussed it on WWII-L. I have yet to see the film but am anxious yet apprehensive at the same time. I nearly cry just thinking about the Holocaust let alone seeing a film as powerful as this. Criticisms on the other list seem to be highly technical like the Jews speaking in Hebrew rather than Yiddish at certain parts. This would have gone right past me. I would notice uniform details and >from the clips if have seen they did a good job. I thought I was seeing newsreel footage. There was an article in Newsweek about the movie and stills from that article showed an Army officer who's uniform was questionable but the SS ones looked good. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:23:37 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Ref: Royal Winnepeg Rifles It is debatable whether Canadians had any "extreme distaste for Germans" more than other combatants. However, after repeated murder of Canadian prisoners by the Hitler Jugend formation, an unofficial "no-quarter" attitude did prevail for about a month or so between the two. This attitude waned away when the Canadians became faced with less vicious opponent units. As for the "treatment at Dieppe", that would refer to the Dieppe raid of 1942, during which the Canadians lost 950 dead and over 2000 captured. I myself never came across any particular desire for retaliation for the Dieppe raid. To soldiers then, you won some, you lost some. C'est la guerre... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:53:24 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Schindler's List From all accounts, SCHINDLER'S LIST, is an accurate depiction of Nazi extermination policies. I intend to see it, soon. There is abundant film footage available, of actual concentration camps, filmed right after liberation in 1945. One of the most powerful, is TESTIMONY OF THE CAMPS, filmed at Belsen by the British army. Its producers were prescient enough to anticipate revisionists, in that every person who spoke on camera, camp inmates and liberating soldiers, had his/her name identified for authenticity and future reference. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 15:47:52 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Forwarding note of 08 Feb 94 15:46:53 EDT from From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: GUADALCANAL SHIPS At the request of one member of our list, I am forward this order information to anyone who may be interested. Richard King *** Forwarding note from RKING --VUNET 02/08/94 15:46 *** Date: 08 Feb 94 15:46:53 EDT From: To: Subject: Addr: GUADALCANAL SHIPS Warren: Here is the information I found from Books in Print: >The Lost Ships of Guadalcanal.< New York: Warner Books, 1993. ISBN 0-446-51636-8 $39.95. Hope you like it. Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:55:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: Re: Schindler's List Keep it in mind that Keneally's book, on which the film is based, is a "novel/history." From: FOXS 4-FEB-1994 15:56 4-FEB-1994 15:56:00.00 To: WAR2 CC: Subj: -Steve Fox- foxs@axe.humboldt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU Subject: German H-Bomb??? To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" Thanks CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 23:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Bataan Death March In-Reply-To: <94Feb8.112912est.32858(4)@spectre.uunet.ca> I don't know if you have an A.V. library available, bu t if you do, I seem to recall the documentary "Bataan, the forgotten hell" to be excellent. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 06:31:54 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090314.AA02370@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU" at Feb 8, 94 7:13 pm > > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA > I recently saw a movie called "the last U-boat" that was supposed to be based on true events. In it an XXI U-boat sailed from Norway on April 15th 1945 towards Japan with two Japanese officers and a lot of Uranium oxide. I find this very unbelieveable as only two XXI actually sailed (as far as I have ever seen) and both returned to the Reich. Anyway in the movie the XXI surrendered in the Atlantic shortly after the war in Europe ended. I have seen somewhere that the Germans were very close and yet in other sources they are supposed to have been very far from it. Dont know. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 03:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090634.AA10216@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "Gudmundur Helgason" at Feb 9, 94 06:31:54 am > > > > > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > > Thanks CA > > > > I recently saw a movie called "the last U-boat" that was > supposed to be based on true events. In it an XXI U-boat sailed from > Norway on April 15th 1945 towards Japan with two Japanese officers and a > lot of Uranium oxide. I find this very unbelieveable as only two XXI > actually sailed (as far as I have ever seen) and both returned to the > Reich. Anyway in the movie the XXI surrendered in the Atlantic shortly > after the war in Europe ended. I believe that WBBM TV (ABC) in Chicago did a story on this some years ago (10-15?). They claimed that when the Germans refused to continue the mission, the Japanese committed suicide and the cargo was jettisoned over the side. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:39:36 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: After The Battle > After the Battle is published in Britain so you should be able to > find it. They have done then and now books on the Battle of the > Bulge, Normandy (D-Day) > and even the Battle of Britain. The last one must be a laugh. This is a picture taken in 1940 of the bit of sky where Sir Douglas Bader shot down his first plane. This other modern picture shows how that bit of sky has changed in the last 50 years....they don't make cloud formations like that anymore... smb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:11:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Wild Subject: Re: Crowded Normandy Bill says,... >I had planned to but we just had a baby and she will still be too >young to travel by that time. One idea for those who, like me, always >come up a day late and a dollar short on things like this on the hotel >situation. You might try this idea. If there are no hotels available >or they are too expensive jump on a train and go anywhere, turn around >and come back. If you check the schedules you can time it just right. >Having a Eurail Pass helps too but you can buy the tickets at any >station and the price for last minute trips is the same as if you buy >in advance. >You can get a sleeper if they are not all taken and they are ok. I >always just crashed in 2nd class and made do. Saved a hundred bucks >a night that way on many occasions. You know Bill, that's a good idea. But I'm the type who would probably end up somewhere (no where) after a train ride, and want to explore a bit. Of course that would make me late for whatever I'd planned. It always happens to me. I get interrupted at least twice at work,... while I'm being interrupted! Crisis management. :-/ Al I'm going to have to remember that one though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 01:22:21 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: P-47's post WWII I was surprised at the number of F-47's still in service in either the National Guard or regular Air Force in the early 1950's. Many books I've read on the Korean War state that the Air Force would have prefered the Jug over the Mustang in the close support role because of its greater firepower and greater reliability of it's radial engine. But, they say, since the Jug was no longer in service it wasn't avaliable. I guess this post brings that argument into question. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:01:53 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: AFTER THE BATTLE In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 08 FEB 1994 00:45:28 CST Globe Militaria is located at Box 2019, Keene, NH 03431-2036, phone number 1-603-352-1961. In their last listing they had both After the Battle and Militaria Magazine listed. Please contact them for more information. Once you get on their mailing list, you will receive info from them for the rest of your life (which is good!). ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:05:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MR SKIP WILDER Subject: Bataan Death March John, Strongly recommend the following: BATAAN AND BEYOND, by John S. Coleman, Jr., Texas A&M University Press, College Station, TX, 1978, ISBN 0-89096-055-0 Skip ----------------------------------------------------------- | Skip Wilder | | | phsp11a@prodigy.com |"The road to hell is paved | | FAX (703)528-2103 | with good intentions." | | McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. | | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:54:38 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST A meeting will be held of the WW-II Discussion List at Jefferson Barracks, Missouri on 30 April and 1 May, 1994. Please forward this information to any other lists or indiviudals who might be interested. Jefferson Barracks: Jefferson Barracks is located on the west bank of the Mississippi River in South St. Louis County, Missouri. The southern portion of the post is still an active Reserve Forces base, with National Guard/ Air National Guard, and Naval Reserve units assigned. The northern most portion of the post is now a park maintained by the St. Louis County Parks Department. Jefferson Barracks was established in 1826 to serve as the site of the first Infantry School of Practice in the U.S., and to replace Fort Bellefontaine as the main training ground for the Army of the West. Although the Infantry School was abandonded in 1828, Jefferson Barracks continued to plat a vital role in the westward expansion and military success of the nation. In the years before the Civil War, troops were g athered at the post to pacify hostile Indian tribes, to protect merchants and emigrants heading west on the various trails, and to establish and garrison other frontier outposts. By the time of the Civil War, nearly ever reigment of the U.S. Army had been stationed, at least in part, at Jefferson Barracks. The barracks were disestablished in 1946. The Event: The Gateway Military Historical Society is sponcering the 1994 WWII Weekend at Jefferson Barracks on 30 April and 1 May. The event is to include WWII Battle reenactment, WWII living history campsites, displays of WWII hardware, a militaria show and sale, and on Saturday night, a USO style show. Schedule of events (approximate): 30 April 10am: park opens, militaria show at Grant Pavilion opens, living history displays in reenactor campsites open noon-1pm: first reenactment battle (Stable-House-Gift Shop Area) 2:30-3pm: second reenactment battle 5pm: militaria show closes, living history displays close 7pm:(estimated): USO Show and Dance, Jefferson Barracks post mess hall 11pm: USO show ends 1 May 10am: Park opens, living history campsites open, militaria show and sale opens noon-1pm: battle reenactment 2:30-3pm: possible battle reenactment (depending upon how many reenactors are left) 5pm: event closes, militaria show closes The reenacting units that display include German/Commonwealth/American. A large number of Allied vehicles are usually present. The past two years has also had a Stuart tank, which is used in the battle scenario. The Stuart has not yet been confirmed. Approximately 100 reenactor from a dozen states attend this event. The living history campsites usually portray a typical bivoac site of the soldiers the reenactors are portraying. They usually include sldiers eating authentic food, and using authentic or reproduction gear, making the campsites smell and look as real as possible. The militaria show and sale is held in the Grant Pavilion, which is about the size of a basketball court. The vendors generally have good wares since the reenactors are there. There typically is an admission price of about $5 to enter the show and sale. The USO Show and Dance is being held in a new location, the post old mess hall. In the past, a live big band has performed, however this past year a DJ playing 40's music provided the entertainment. It has no t been confirmed yet as to the entertainment. It lasts from 7pm -11pm. Admission with the big band cost $6 and was free for reenactors. Last year, the event was free. Depending upon what the entertainment is this year, there maybe a similar fee as in the past or it may be free. Directions to the mess hall can be obtained at the reenactment area. WWII-L meeting: The 11th Panzer Divison, WWIIHRS will be hosting the get together. The unit Commander, Oberleutnant George Krupa is glad to help out. The 11th Panzer area will be the muster area. Generally we are camped just to the west of the three building that make up the battlefield area. Just ask any reenactor where the 11th is located, and you should get good directions. I suggest that people meet at 11am, since we will be bsuy with the first battle starting at noon. The event is located in a county park, so please dress for the weather. Food along the hot dog/burger variety is available at the event. I suggest that blankets be brought to watch the battle since there is no seating available. Directions: Anyone traveling into the St Louis area I suggest using the I-270-255 loop around the city. JB is located on the west bank of the Mississippi near the Jefferson Barracks bridge of I-255. Do not let the terms I-255 and I-270 confuse you--it is the same road. The same road is called tow different numbers--east of I-55 in south county it is I-255, west of I-55 it is I-270, however this is the same highway. Take the Telegraph Road exit from I-270/I-255. This is the second exit west of the bridge. Take Telegraph Road north for 1.25 miles until you came to a Y in the road---veer to to the right road, which is Kingston Road. Follow Kingston Road for 1.1 miles. You should reach a point where Kingston veers to the left and becomes Broadway Street. At this juncture, there is a street to the right called CCC. Take this street and you should come to the gate of Jefferson Barracks. Follow this street for a short distance and take the first left. After this turn, you are in the battle area, which should be on your right near the stone buildings. Parking should be available on the grass, or in a lot furthe r down the road after it veers to the right. There are three entrances to Jefferson Barracks. The route I have described is the third and last entrance to the Park. Do not let the previous two signs on Telegraph and Kingston confuse you. The first leads to the reserve base, the second to the cemetary. The third one, at the joining of Broadway and Kingston is the correct entrance. I will send a second portion later today describing the billeting/campin options. I am the point of contact for this, so please contact me for more details. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:11:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GERMAN 101/102 LAB Subject: Re: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 09 FEB 1994 09:54:38 EST Does anyone on the net know if the Jefferson barracks is the same location of a famous incident at the start of the Civil War? I am not sure of the date, but 5 regiments of German Turners surrounded and took prisoner the ENTIRE Missouri militia (approximately 700 men). As far as I can see, that single action deprived the Copperhead Missouri govt of its military force and effectively prevented the secessionists from occupying the junction of the Missouri & Mississippi rivers. Dale Lally St. Lawrence University dlally@stlawu.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:48:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Re: Ref : Royal Winnepeg Rifles Tim wrote a story about Canadians who strapped a german ss officer on the front of a leading tank in attack. The way I red the story it was a Canadian "invention" and a warcrime. I do not want to say that it was good what they did, but here in Holland we had the expression "paying someone back with his own money" and this was exact what the Canadians did. On 10 Mai 1940 the German Airborne troops that invaded the "Waalhaven" AFB used the local Colonel as POW on the same way to surrender all the troops on the field. On 10 Mai 1940 the German special troops used civilians strapped on the front of there boats to cross the river Maas between Netherland and Belgium as part of their attack on the Belgium fort Ebenhaezer (Were this the Brandenburgers????) On 11 and 12 Mai the SS used POW as shield while attacking the "Grebbe". This donot mean that all the german troops were criminals, but there was a big difference between Wehrmacht and SS soldiers. Also a Razzia by Wehrmacht soldiers was something else than a Razzia by SS or "Grune Polizei". I know, all this do not make good the Canadian behaviour, but as some others mentioned before, fighting against the germans, special fighting against the SS makes it understandeble and of a quite different dimension and can you blame someone for fighting back and using the same arms??? Yes , the germans can! On 10 Mai 1940 between 04.00 and 04.30 their was a big dogfight over AFB "de Kooi" between 9 x Messerschmitt Bf-109 and 8 x Fokker D-21. 2 Bf-109 were shot down against 0 D-21. One 109 disappeared in the Waddenzee the other made a wheel-up landing on the airfield, the german officer was taken prisoner. His shouting words against the Dutch pilot who downed him were very clear for the german way of thinking. He was furious that the Dutch were shooting back on him, a first class war-crime. The german was send to England as POW together with the major part of the german airborne division. Later they were send to Canada and spend there their wartime. The Dutch pilot sailed in 1941 for England and became Spitfire pilot. After the war they met again in Germany and this time they had a nice tolk,they met also their both families and became close friends. Let that be the way we discuss wwii. Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:16:22 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: WWII-L Meeting-Jefferson Barracks, Part 2 In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST This is the second psoting for information regarding the WWII-L meeting to be held at Jefferson Barracks, Missouri on 30 April-1 May, in conjunction with the WWII History days held at the park. Off-base food: On Telegraph Road between I-255 and the Jefferson Barracks entrance there is a Hardees and Jack-in-the-Box. South of I-255 on Telegraph Road there is a wide variety of fast food, bar and grill type places, and finer resturants. These are about a mile or so south of I-255. There also are grocery stores in this area. A second area for food would be Lindbergh Blvd near the I-55 junction. This is easily accessed from I-255 heading west by taking the Lindberg exit west. There is a mall in this area, and many choices. From I-55 take the Lindbergh exit either east or west and you are in the middle of it. Camping: Camping is an option many reenactors choose, and anyone interested is more than welcome to colocate with the 11th Panzer site. There is a men's and women's restroom located about 50' from our normal site (assuming we set up where we have). There is also a public shower facility within walking distance, however my experience is that the building is too cold to be of use. A couple of basic guidlines for those who want to camp. Please do not set up before the living history sites close at 5pm. Neon orange camping gear does not lend itself to historical authenticity, and the unit you set up with will probably be heckled as "Farbes" (reenacting term for someone incorect) or the new politically correct term--"Historically challenged". After 5pm is fine, as several reenactors may have unathentic camping gear which will be set up then as well. Please coordinate with the unti to insure you aren;t in a vehicle parking site, or worse, driving area. Most campsites will have a fire, and you are more than welcome to join any campfire, as most reeanctors will enjoy the company. Expect to hear some wonderful "war stories". Please strike your campsites before 10am, to insure historical authenticity for the next days event. Please police up any unauthentic items, and please insure you do not leave any pepsi cans, or cheetos bags laying around "Farbing Up" someone's campsite. Alcohol is permitted, however do not bring it out until after nightfall. The USO show usually has a bar, however BYOB is permitted and recommended. Billeting Off Base: I recommend the hotels located near Lindbergh Blvd and I-55 junction. They are reasonably close, nice and there are plenty of eating places nearby. To get to these hotels, from I-255 heading west, take the Lindbergh west exit (the one after Telegraph), follow it past the mall and the hotels are near the I-55 junction. Coming from I-255/270 take I-55 north to the first exit, which is Lindbergh. Go east or west depending upon where your hotel is. I recommend using the Oak Grove Inn, on Bi-State Industrial Drive, which is just west of the I-55/Linbergh Junction to the south. I stayed there 1 weekend a month for 2 years from drills when it was a Super 8 motel. There is a Bob Evans and Ponderosa within walking distance of the hotel. The rates are $38.44 for a single, and $42.95 for a double. For reservations, call 314-894-9449. Another hotel next to the Oak Grove in is the Motel 6. Directions are the same for the Oak Grove Inn. It's rates are $33.84 for a single, and $40.61 for a double. For reservations call 314-892-3364. East of the I-55/Lindbergh Junction is the Holiday Inn. It's rates are $70.50 for a single, and $80.50 for a double room. For reservations call 314-892-3600. Another hotel is the Holiday Inn South. It is located 1 mile south of the I-55/I-270/255 junction south on I-55. Take the Butler Hill exit, and head east--it should be on the right. Rates are $76 for a single room. For reservations call 314-894-0700. Other options include hotels at the I-44/Lindbergh Junction. From Jefferson Barracks, take I-255/270 west until you reach the I-44 junction. Head east on I-44 toward the city until you reach I-44. The Days Inn is located 3 blocks south of the I-44/Lindbergh junction. It costs $35 for a single and $40 for a double. For reservations call 314-821-3000. There is also a Howard Johnson's at 314-821-3950 and the Stafford House at 314-821-4300 in this area. One final option is the Drury in, located 5 minutes south of the I-55/I-270/255 junction at the junction of I-55 and US 141. For reservations, call 314-296-9600. Other instructions: I will be receiving a packet of information from the event corrdinator, and I will post any follow-up changes. Anybody got a VCR-TV combination? I have a copy of Kelly's Heroes. If someone has a generator, we could watch it in our campsite--not authentic, but fun. Be sure to bring plety of warm clothing if you are camping. It generall is greatcoat weather by nightfall, even if the temperature is in the 60's during the day. I can send highlighted maps to anyone interested. Please contact me direct for any questions or additonal information. I am looking forward to seeing you there. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:58:34 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: crjackson@UCDAVIS.UCDAVIS.EDU Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090315.AA15214@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> An excellent book on the subject came out a couple of years ago: Mark Walker, German National Socialism and the Quest for Nuclear Power, 1939-1949 (Cambridge UP, 1989). The short answer is "not very close." The scientists in Germany were probably as good as the scientists in the west, but for a variety of reasons, the atomic project was down-graded in terms of priorities during the war (in early 1942), and they never gained the resources necessary to go ahead and make a stab at such a huge project. More recently the transcript of post-war discussions between captured German scientists has been published. Immediately after Hiroshima these physicists, gathered together under detention in Britain, were told of the bomb. Their conversations were secretly recorded; it makes for interesting eavesdropping. Part of it was printed last year(or perhaps earlier) in the New York Review of Books. David Irving wrote a book on the German atomic bomb project, but you shouldn't trust David Irving. Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU wrote: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 18:29:48 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU wrote: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" German scientists were still experimenting with their first nuclear reactor, with heavy water as moderator and natural uranium. The Japanese were trying to enrich uranium with a technique (thermal gaseous diffusion) that did not work. Both efforts were relatively small-scale and never near producing a bomb. BTW, the nuclear fission bomb is the A-bomb; the hydrogen fusion H-bomb is a post-war development. "The making of the atomic bomb" by Rhodes has a lot of info (it is a thick book, too). Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: New book on war I received today a brochure for the following title: Lawrence Freedman, ed. WAR. AN OXFORD READER. March 1994, Oxford University Press. @ $13.95 paper. This is the first of a series. Contents as follows: The Experience of War; The Causes of War; War and the Military Establishment; The Ethics of War; Strategy; Total War and the Great Powers; Limited war and developing Countries. -- Warren Thompson LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE Annville PA 17003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: <9402091712.AA01834@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "GERMAN 101/102 LAB" at Feb 9, 94 11:11:29 am > > Does anyone on the net know if the Jefferson barracks is the same > location of a famous incident at the start of the Civil War? I am > not sure of the date, but 5 regiments of German Turners surrounded > and took prisoner the ENTIRE Missouri militia (approximately 700 > men). As far as I can see, that single action deprived the Copperhead > Missouri govt of its military force and effectively prevented the > secessionists from occupying the junction of the Missouri & Mississippi > rivers. For a MORE interesting story, research Calloway County, MO and its secession to form a KINGDOM, and subsequent invasion and garrisoning by a German speaking army of occupation.... :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:44:12 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? Though the Germans did not get very far along with their A-bomb, it was still a worrisome project to the Allies at the time. Two military strikes against German atomic facilities finished them. The Nazi heavy water (deuterium oxide) intended for use in an A-bomb, was being processed at vemork, near Oslo, Norway. On the night of 19 November 1942, two gliders containing 38 uniformed members of the British Parachute Regiment landed near the plant. The gliders crashed on landing, killing half the soldiers. The rest of the soldiers, in full uniform, 19 of them, were shot by the germans next day. An expedition by Special Operations Executive agents was more successful, and the Norske Hydro Plant was dynamited, delaying the heavy water project and not much work was ever done there further. There'sa good account of this raid in SLIS AGAINST THE ATOM, by Knut Haukelid. (that's SKIS, of course). Several books about the SOE also describe the enterprise. Then, on 15 March, 1945, American bomber aircraft were sent to flatten a thorium ore processing plant at Oranienburg,at the direct reqquest of MGen Leslie Groves, head of the "Manhatten Project". "Just to be sure..." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 16:44:03 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jacques tremblay Subject: British Army Dear members of the list, I am trying to identify a work that is considered as "the" official military history of the British army during WWII. Can someone help? Thank you in advance. Jacques Tremblay Chicoutimi, Quebec Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 17:38:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST from On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST said: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related >to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How >close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this >type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send >it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA A review in =Science= a year ago of a book about Heisenberg & the bomb effort leads me to conclude they never would have made it: when news of Hiroshima was given to the Germans (now detained by the British), the explanation that Heisenberg ingeniously cooked up on the spot (recorded secretly by his jailors) shows he had missed the boat on several important points about what happens in the chain reaction. He was still thinking in terms of tons of uranium instead of kilos, to boot, so I doubt the Germans would have been able to deliver the thing even had they been able to build it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 19:04:34 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Death Notice I am going to try to get to Normandy this fall - don't want to fight the crowds! Plus I have heard scuttlebutt that the French government is going to restrict access to the beaches to veterans only during the ceremonies. K.B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 18:58:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... Richard - I have "Lost Ships of Guadalcanal", saw the TV documentary that complements it also. I must say the book is better than the TV show. Aside from the great photography, the TV show was not very well put together and tended to give a false impression of the Guadalcanal campaign. Several co-workers who also saw it commented to me that they got the impression that Guadalcanal was a "walkover" for the U.S. Anyone who knows the subject realizes that was not the case. Also, there are still several ships in Ironbottom that remain to be discovered. The planes are there also, the book just didn't cover them as it's emphasis is on the ships. K.B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:38:15 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MR SKIP WILDER Subject: German H-Bomb??? Probably the best book on the German a-bomb effort is HEISENBERG'S WAR - THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE GERMAN BOMB, by Thomas Powers, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1993, ISBN 0-394-51411-4. It tells the story of Werner Heisenberg (of Uncertainty Principle fame) who headed Hitler's a-bomb project during WWII. The author tries to make the case that Heisenberg purposely misled the Nazis, thus effectively sabotaging the a-bomb effort. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Skip Wilder | | | phsp11a@prodigy.com |"The road to hell is paved | | FAX (703)528-2103 | with good intentions." | | McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. | | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 07:05:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 9-10 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 9 FEBRUARY TO THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang P-51, North American Mustang WEDNESDAY, 9 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, B-25s, P-51s, P-38s, P-40s, and A-36s carry out 75 attack sorties against Seinnyinba, bivouac and supply areas in the Mogaung-Loilaw area, bivouac and buildings at Pyindaw, camps at Kumnyen and near Maingkwan and Shingban, and storage area and bivouac on the Mogaung-Kamaing road near Sawnghka; a bridge over the Namtamng River near Maingkwan also is destroyed. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 P-40s strafe and bomb large barracks and oil storage at Chefang and pound town areas of Homun and Mangshih. 2 B-25s demolish a radio station SW of Haiphong, French Indochina. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 133 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites in coastal France, marshalling yards at Tergnier, France and targets of opportunity in the area. This marks the first of the IX Bomber Command raids on marshalling yards. HQ 344th Bombardment Group (Medium) arrives at Stansted, England from the US. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather grounds all aircraft with exception of 1 P-38 which flies a weather reconnaissance mission. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s and B-26s, in close support to US Fifth Army forces, attack motor transport and troop concentrations in the Campoleone area while A-20s blast another troop concentration to the W; P-40s hit Cisterna di Latina and gun positions; A-36s and P-40s pound concentration points of a counterattack against the Fifth Army beachhead in the Anzio area, strike along the main Fifth Army front, and attack the villages of Piedimonte and Aquino and gun positions near Cassino and Ausonia. HQ 87th Fighter Wing transfers from Nouvion, Algeria to Caserta, Italy. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from the Gilbert Islands attack targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., A-24s from Makin Island along with supporting P-40s, bomb and strafe oil storage and gun positions on Jaluit Atoll; during a dusk-to-dawn operation on 9/10 Feb B-24s operating at intervals from Tarawa Atoll maintain strikes against Wotje Atoll and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive-bomber attack on Vunakanau Airfield, scoring many hits on AA positions, buildings, and runways; 24 B-24s with USN fighter escort follow with a strike on the same target hitting runways and revetment area; 19 B-24s. with 20 P-38s supporting, hit Tobera Airfield, thoroughly saturating the runway. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): On New Guinea, the occupation of the Huon Peninsula is completed as US and Australian forces meet SE of Saidor; A-20s pound the village of Mindiri. B-24s bomb Amboina, Ambon Island and Lautem, Timor Island. THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Thailand, 9 B-24s bomb the Ban Mah arsenal at Bangkok and Don Maung Airfield immediately to the N. In Burma, 3 B-24s bomb Prome and Akyab, 9 B-25s pound Chiradan and Godusara, and 16 P-51s hit barracks and a road at Chishidu. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 P-40s bomb Wanling and vicinity while 3 others fly top cover; the target area, a supply staging and training center, is heavily damaged; 5 B-24s during the night of 9/10 Feb mine the mouth of the Yangtze River; B-25s on sea sweeps claim 2 freighters sunk near Hainan Island and SW of Hong Kong; 12 P-51s and P-38s strafe boats and parked aircraft in the Chiuchiang area; 12 P-40s strafe power boats and sampans along the Yangtze River from Puchi to Yoyang. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 216: 141 of 169 B-17s hit the industrial area at Brunswick, Germany and 2 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 42-30-61 Luftwaffe aircraft; 29 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 52 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 295 MIA; escort is provided by 64 P-38s, 357 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 45 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 56-1-40 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-2 on the ground; 5 P-38s and 4 P-47s are lost, 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 6 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 9 MIA. 27 of 81 B-24s hit the Gilze-Rijen Airfield, The Netherlands; dense contrails and frost prevent most aircraft from attacking; 4 B-24s are damaged beyond repair; casualties are 26 KIA and 14 WIA; escort is provided by 91 P-47s without loss. Mission 217: In a CARPETBAGGER mission, 5 of 5 B-17s drop 260 bundles of leaflets on Rennes, Caen, Rouen and Amiens, France and Antwerp, Belgium at 2111-2145 hours without loss. HQ 364th Fighter Group and 383d, 384th and 385th Fighter Squadrons arrive at Honington, England from the US with P-38J's; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 114 B-26s attack V-weapon sites in coastal France, airfields at Poix and Beauvais/Tille, a bridge at Le Crotoy, and a coastal battery N of the Conch River. 496th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s bomb Albano Laziale, Cisterna di Latina and Cecina; B-24s strike Campoleone and Velletri; P-38s bomb and strafe the Tivoli, Vicovaro, and Monterotondo area; P-47s fly uneventful sweeps over Cisterna di Roma and Albano; numerous heavy bombers are forced to abort operations because of unsafe flying conditions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Light and medium bomber missions are aborted because of bad weather. In Italy, P-40s and A-36s support an unsuccessful attempt of the US Fifth Army's 1st Infantry Division to stem an attack in the Carroceto area; P-47s fail to locate their target (Sora) and drop bombs on targets of opportunity. 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, based on Corsica with P-39s, sends a detachment to Capodichino, Italy. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from Gilbert Island bases attack targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; 9 B-24s from Abemama Island, sent to bomb a weather and radio station on Rongelap Island, abort due to a fuel leak in the lead B-24; an attempt to bomb Jaluit Atoll during the return flight is unsuccessful. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and USN fighters cover a USN dive-bomber attack on Vunakanau Airfield; B-25s with fighter escort bomb Vunakanau later in the day; Tobera is pounded by 21 B-24s supported by P-38s and USN fighters; the Allied aircraft claim 30+ aircraft downed in the New Britain area. P-39s hit buildings at Bonis and barges in Matchin Bay on Bougainville Island and near Green Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 50+ B-24s bomb Boram Airfield and harbor at Wewak. 6 B-25s and a B-24 hit Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island and jetties at Manus Island. P-39s strafe targets of opportunity during a sweep over wide areas of New Britain Island. The junction of Allied forces from Arawe and Cape Gloucester marks the completion of the campaign for the W end of New Britain Island; occasional missions will still be flown in the area, but most will be restricted to barge sweeps and patrols. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 07:28:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: 10 FEB 42: SS NORMANDIE CAPSIZES On this date (10 Feb) 52 years ago, the former French ocean liner SS NORMANDIE, capsized at a pier on the Hudson River in New York City. Details are listed below. I was almost 6-years old at the time but do not remember it but it was covered in all New York City newspapers at the time including photographs on the front page. What about security during World War II? The answer is simple. How can you hide a ship over 1,000 feet (305m) long lying on it's starboard side at a New York City pier when it an be viewed by anyone passing by? The military must have gone nuts about security for this event but there was nothing they could do about it. The following is from Volume IV of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING SHIPS, US Navy Department, 1969. LAFAYETTE, Transport Number 53 (AP-53) (ex SS NORMANDIE) Displacment: 53,400 tons (estimated) Length: 1,029 feet 4 inches (313.74 m) Beam: 117 feet 9 inches (35.9 m) Draft: 37 feet 6 inches (11.5 m) Speed: 29 knots French luxury liner SS NORMANDIE was laid down in 1931 by Compagnie General Transatlantique, St. Nazarire, France; launched 29 Oct 32; and completed her first Atlantic crossing in 1935. Interned in New York City at the beginning of World War II, NORMANDIE was seized on 12 Dec 41; formally requistioned by the Maritime Commission on 16 Dec 41; transferred to the US Navy on 24 Dec 41; and named LAFAYETTE and designated Transport Number 53 (AP-53). A contract for her conversion to a troop transport was awarded to Robins Dry Dock & Repair Co., a subsidiary of Todd Shipyards, Inc., 27 Dec 41. During conversion she caught fire at 1430 hours local on 9 Feb 42 and capsized at 0245 hours local on 10 Feb 42. After one of the largest salvage operations in history, LAFAYETTE was righted 7 Aug 43. She was classified Transport and Aircraft Ferry Number 4 (APV-4) on 15 Sep 43 and placed in drydock in Oct 43. However, extensive damage to her hull, deterioration of her machinery, and the necessity for employing manpower on other critical war products prevented resumption of the conversion program. Her hull remained in the custody of the US Navy until her name was struck from the Navy list 11 Oct 45. She was sold as scrap 3 Oct 46 to Lipsett, Inc., New York City. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 04:45:39 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? Surely. the most effective "sabotaging" of the Nazi A-bomb project was done by agents of Special Operations Executive in 1942, when they destroyed the heavy-water plant in Norway. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 05:20:17 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting) Larry, I notice there seem to be few messages using the "flag" system you describe in your intro to the list. Is it just a matter of people forgetting, or has the requirement for flags been dropped? Regards. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:24:07 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Spencer Subject: Re: British Army I am trying to identify a work that is considered as "the" official military history of the British army during WWII. The British Official History is published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office. It runs many volumes in several series. There are 6 volumes in Grand Strategy series, one on Norway, 6 (actually 8, as some "volumes" are in "parts") in The Mediterranean and the Middle East series, 5 in the War against Japan series, one on The War in France and Flanders, 1939-40, and 2 in the Victory in the West series. There are also series on British Intelligence (covering the ULTRA operation), on the RAF, on the War at Sea and on foreign affairs. The Grand Strategy and Mediterranean series are detailed and excellent. I am now reading the first volumes in the War against Japan series; so far it too is quite good in reporting a thoroughly dismal performance. The Victory in the West series is poor. But for the nice maps, it's ignorable. My impression is that the Army decided that the other series should fill the traditional role of Official Histories, but that the NW Europe volumes were likely to be read by non-specialists. So it's at the level of a good one-volume popular history published before ULTRA was revealed. I have not been able to find a copy of the France and Flanders volume or the Norway volume. The books are expensive; dealers usually get US$60 to US$100 per volume -- more for a complete series. HMSO has representatives in the US and Canada. I don't know who the Canadian rep is; you could try writing HMSO at Her Majesty's Stationery Office St Crispins Duke Street Norwich NR3 1PD England When I ordered books, the US rep was Bernan Associates 10033-F M.L. King Highway Lanham, Maryland 20706-4391 You can also find used volumes from Military Bookman in New York, Jack Faber in Millwood, NY, and Peter L Jackson in Toronto. You have to go to a dealer to get the out of print volumes, and you will surely get any in-print volumes these dealers have available faster than you would get them from HMSO. However, their availability is spotty and the dealers get a hefty premium over the HMSO list. The London military booksellers generally have these in stock, also at hefty premiums. I have a list of London dealers that publish catalogs if anyone's interested. It's a little old, as I get to London often enough now that I don't need to order. dhs spencer@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 05:32:23 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: 10 FEB 42: SS NORMANDIE CAPSIZES As I recall, there were allegations that the NORMANDIE was deliberately set afire by saboteurs in Nazi pay. Irish sympathizers were prime suspects, I think. However, it would be best to further research this, for facts, rather than to accept yet another "conspiracy" theory. Probably the info is available. I'll have to look into this. Regards. 1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:08:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: 19 Feb 45 - Iwo Jima FROM THE NAVY NEWS SERVICE ----------------------------------------------------------------- Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL ----------------------------------------------------------------- NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 09 Feb 94 - NAVNEWS 008/94 TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR NAVNEWS 008/94 Around the Fleet NNS097. This Week in the Navy: Feb. 19, 1945 -USN- NNS097. This Week in the Navy: Feb. 19, 1945 -- The Marines were landed on Iwo Jima. It took 26 days of bitter fighting to secure the island. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:19:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: SS NORMANDIE >As I recall, there were allegations that the NORMANDIE was deliberately >set afire by saboteurs in Nazi pay. Irish sympathizers were prime suspects, >I think. However, it would be best to further research this, for facts, >rather than to accept yet another "conspiracy" theory. Probably the info >is available. I'll have to look into this. >Regards. To the best of my memory (Which is not the greatest anymore!), a fire was started by a welder on 9 Feb and since the ship was dead, there were no pumps to put out the fire. And by the time the NYFD got there, they had a raging, uncontrollable fire on their hands. The NYFD pumped a lot of water into her and this was the cause of her capsizing. As far as Irish sympathizers were concerned, as an Irish-American I think that is typical (censored)! In Feb 42, the US was at war with the Axis powers and I have never heard any sentiments, stories, facts, etc. in the Irish-American community for sabotage against the US. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 06:35:17 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: SS NORMANDIE A welder... Far more believable. Thanks for the info. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:44:27 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Lundstrom Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... In-Reply-To: <9402100100.AA10153@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> from "Kevin Brown" at Feb 9, 94 06:58:42 pm I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier battles, for example. It is often forgotten that the total surprise achieved on 7 August 1942 by the landing force was entirely fortuitous. In light of Japanese air search patterns from Tulagi experienced during the Battle of the Coral Sea, the USN expected to be sighted on the 5th or certainly the 6th and have to fight their way in. Unknown to them, the Japanese cut their searches down from 650-700 miles to 400 miles. On 6 August a band of bad weather effectively hindered the Japanese search. A second surprise to me in researching Guadalcanal was that the Allies almost ran out of aircraft in the South Pacific in mid October 1942. Another battleship bombardment as occurred on 14 October 1942 could easily have crippled the CACTUS Air Force, with very little to send in from the nearest air bases. Thirdly, the escape of the damaged ENTERPRISE on 26 October 1942 from the Battle of Santa Cruz was terrifically important. Losing at Guadalcanal would not have cost the Allies the Pacific War, but it could have provided powerful arguments for those pushing the Europe-first strategy. John Lundstrom jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:51:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... >I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented >Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went >just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier >battles, for example. Geez...I sure didn't get that message from the video. What I did see for the first time, however, was that the Japanese troops were in bad shape towards the end of the campaign. What portions of the presentation gave the impression of the 'inevitability' of the allied victory? Bill N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Aerial bombing and morality Subscribers may be interested in this title: Stephen Garrett. ETHICS AND AIRPOWER IN WORLD WAR II: THE BRITISH BOMBING OF GERMAN CITIES. St Martin's, 1993. ISBN: 0-2312-08683-0 @ $45.00 list ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:10:38 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Another new title on war Subscribers may be interested in this: Daniel Pick. WAR MACHINE: THE RATIONALIZATION OF SLAUGHTER IN THE MODERN AGE. Yale Univ Press, 1993. ISBN: 0-300-05417-3 hardbound -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:44:49 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: TROUBLE: West Point! > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > Connected to usma6.usma.edu: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 /usr6/is8206/.forward: line 0: 4335... Never heard of this userid! > 550 ... User unknown Someone at the Point, please pass this to your wizards! I don't want do delete anyone since this seems to be a transient problem but I'm getting a mailbox full of error messages from this account. Thanks, Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 17:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? On Wed, 9 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > Though the Germans did not get very far along with their A-bomb, it was > still a worrisome project to the Allies at the time. > Two military strikes against German atomic facilities finished them. > The Nazi heavy water (deuterium oxide) intended for use in an A-bomb, Small correction: Heavy water, or any other moderator, is not used in a A-bomb. It is only used in a nuclear reactor (The U.S. used purified graphite for this purpose), but this was directly relevant to the A-bomb project because running a reactor gives important data and produces plutonium. The Vemork plant had also been bombed at another time. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:38:03 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael Cotter Subject: Re: British Army In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:24:07 -0500 from An added note: The series title of the official British army history of WWII is: History of the Second World War. (If you were to search it by title (and not specify "series" title) in some libraries, you might not find all volumes of the series.) Each sub-series has its own title, e. g. British Foreign Policy in the Second World War; Victory in the West; Grand Strategy; The Mediterranean and Middle East; The War at Sea; Civil Affairs and Military Government . . . .;Casualties and Medical Statistics; The War in France and Flanders; Economic Blockade; The War against Japan; and Studies of Overseas Supply (all of the titles in our library). Also, The War in France and Flanders was published in 1953, so that is one reason that you might not have located a reference to it. I did not locate the Norway volume in our library's catalog. Hope this helps. Michael Cotter Documents Librarian Joyner Library East Carolina University Greenville NC 27858 919/757-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 15:53:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: TROUBLE: West Point! >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >> Connected to usma6.usma.edu: >> >>> RCPT To: >> <<< 550 /usr6/is8206/.forward: line 0: 4335... Never heard of this userid! >> 550 ... User unknown > >Someone at the Point, please pass this to your wizards! I don't want do >delete anyone since this seems to be a transient problem but I'm getting >a mailbox full of error messages from this account. > >Thanks, Larry J Larry, That address is for CPT Stephen Ingalls here. I have passed word on to his department about the problem, since he is not registering on the system at this location either. There must be some network problem with his computer. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:11:23 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Foster Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:51:00 -0500 (EST)" <01H8QQC5F01U8WWG8M@cc.newcastle.edu.au> >I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented >Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went >just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier >battles, for example. >Geez...I sure didn't get that message from the video............. Me either.The message I received was the US troops were extremely lucky due to unexplainable tactics and blunders by the Japanese commander(s) which seemed to depart from everything they had learned and brought them success up to this point.This hapened not once but on seperate occasions.It seemed like the commander risked losing face after the first failure and just bashed on regardless to get back his and his troops pride.Again the message was the men on the island were very very lucky in addition to very very brave. My 2 cents worth John Bill N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 18:49:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB The following is a list of files available from the U.S. Navy's new ftp site, ftp.ncts.navy.mil. (These are the files of direct interest to this list, there's a lot more there for those who want them. LWJ) ----------------------------------------------------------------- NAVY & MARINE CORPS WORLD WAR II COMMEMORATIVE COMMITTEE A service of Navy Chief of Information Office (703)695-3161/DSN 225-3161 ----------------------------------------------------------------- INDEX INDEX OF WORLD WAR II FILES (Includes subdirectory name, file name and short description of file contents.) NEWS News Anzio.txt Text of message from Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Frank B. Kelso II commemorating the Jan. 22 50th anniversary of Allied landings at Anziio and Nettuno near Rome. Taranews.txt Nov. 20-23, 1993, is 50th anniversary of Battle for Tarawa, the Japanese stronghold in the Gilbert Islands. 2nd Marine Division victory in the face of great odds. At Tarawa, the Navy-Marine Corps team developed the methods of amphibious assault used thereafter to defeat Japan. Marshall.txt Jan. 3l, 1994, is 50th anniversary of Marshall Islands campaign. 4th Marine Division and Army 7th Division seize Japanese soil for first time in Pacific war. EVENTS Commemorative Events WW2event.txt Lists reunions, exhibits, airshows, etc. in commemoration of World War II. PROGRAM Commemorative Community Program WhatItIs.txt A description of the World War II Commemorative Community Program and how to qualify for its benefits. Aplicatn.txt The form that must be completed and mailed to the Navy-Marine Corps World War II Commemorative Committee. Ideas.txt A list (not all-inclusive) of the kinds of events that qualify a group to be a Commemorative Community. FACTS Fact Sheets 63rdBees.txt Unit history of 63rd Seabee battalion. Served at Guadalcanal and Emirau islands. ArmGuard.txt Sailors assigned to man guns on merchant vessels. Blimps.txt Lighter-than-air contribution to anit-sub, minesweeping and rescue operations. Bougnvil.txt Battle of Bougainville (Nov. 1943) isolates Japanese at Rabaul; wins the Solomon Islands. Convoys.txt North Russia convoy runs during Battle of the Atlantic. Severe weather and U-boat threats. CVE.txt Escort carriers' anti-submarine missions, battle group and amphibious landing support. Kamikaze.txt Development and effectiveness of the Japanese suicide pilot force. Lantbttl.txt Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945). U.S. and Brittain beat the German U-boats. Magic.txt Navy intel cracks the Japanese naval code, assisting Pacific wins at Midway, Tarawa. Sidebar on death of Yamamoto, due to Magic. Marshlls.txt Jan. 3l, 1994, is 50th anniversary of Marshall Islands campaign. 4th Marine Division and Army 7th Division seize Japanese soil for first time in Pacific war. MCinWW2.txt Personnel strength, combat losses, aces, weapons, boats, aircraft, events and more. MCLant.txt Summary of Marine service in the Atlantic, Europe and Africa. MCRaider.txt Development, operations of the Marine Raider battalions (special missions forces). MCWomen.txt Women in the Marine Corps -- founding, rates, leaders. Navajos.txt The story of Marine Navajo Code Talkers, who created a code that was never broken. NavinWW2.txt Overview of Navy's two-ocean victory. Info on battles, hardware, personnel strength. Seabee.txt History of WWII Naval Construction Battalions with founding, duties, some demographics. Subs.txt Exploits of "the Silent Service," conditions aboard submarines, sub triumphs and losses. Tarawa.txt Nov. 20-23, 1943. 2nd Div. Marines prevail in the Gilbert Islands. V12Prgm.txt Navy's officer training program, designed to increase the ranks. Prominent participants. WAVES.txt Brief history of women's service; info on numbers, training, jobs, uniforms, housing. YamaDies.txt Sidebar to American Magic. Navy intel causes death of Japanese fleet commander Yamamoto. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Navy & Marine Corps World War II Commemorative Committee Navy Office of Information (CHINFO) The Pentagon, Room 2E352 Washington, DC 20350-1200 ----------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 20:23:30 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: CAPT Tim Taylor USN Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: <9402102356.AA28110@gate.ncts.navy.mil> On Thu, 10 Feb 1994, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote: > The following is a list of files available from the U.S. Navy's new ftp site, > ftp.ncts.navy.mil. > > (These are the files of direct interest to this list, there's a lot more > there for those who want them. LWJ) [ long listing deleted ] And it's also worth noting that a web server overlays the same hierarchy of files. If you have access to a web client, you can get to our home page (and ultimately to all our files) through this URL: http://www.ncts.navy.mil/navpalib/.www/welcome.html CAPT Tim Taylor, USN Email: Tim.Taylor@ncts.navy.mil Navy Office of Information Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078 Washington, DC 20350-1200 Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767 - Please send NavNews email to navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 22:14:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: cuf@AOL.COM Subject: Computer & health The Computer User Family (CUF) is concerned about the health problem associated with computers. Video Display Terminals, emit UV and ELF radiation and may cause cancer, immune system irregularities, miscarriages and eye fatigue. Computer noise from fans, disk and CD drives is also becoming a source of anxiety, stress and general discomfort . We usually don't realize how loud our computers are: 50dB and more. These problems should be dealt with and add-ons should be provided for present computers to avoid putting us at risks. Some safe screens and quiet power supplies are coming out but they are marginal and prices are prohibitive. Meanwhile the general guidelines for the users are: 1. Position yourself approximately 22 inches to 28 inches (arm's length) from the screen and four feet from the sides and rear of other terminals. 2. Eliminate sources of glare and lower light levels in the room. Don't sit facing a bright window. If necessary, use screen hoods, glare shields over the screen or wear anti-UV/anti-glare glasses. 3. Put a noise absorbing mat under your computer. Pull your computer away from the wall or any hard surface that reflects noise and vibration back to you. 4. Rest occasionally during periods of intense concentration. Closing your eyes helps. 5. Turn off the VDT when not in use. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 07:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Kamphaus Subject: Readers Digest Story I meant to send this a couple of weeks ago. In the Feb issue of Readers Digest there is a story called "Ray Hamleys Bravest Mission". Hamley was a RAF bomber and returns to one of the cities in Germany (Kleve I think) he knows for sure he was responsible for bombing. There is much more to the story than this but I don't want to spoil it. It is a very touching story in the end. Worth the read. Kevin Kamphaus usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: TRV: The Kissing Sailor The Newport Daily News (RI) has a weekly column called the "Grist Mill". It's written by Leonard Panaggio who spends his time rummaging through local archives and writes about interesting bits of history of the area. In his February 9 installment, Panaggio received a copy of a local girl's essay concerning famous people who had graduated from her grade school. One of these people was apparently the "kissing sailor" whose photo was made famous by Life magazine and can always be found in American History textbooks. I now quote from the article: "[Katie Ritchie, the schoolgirl] learned that George Mendonsa's claim to fame is that he is the kissing sailor on the Life magazine cover showing a Times Square scene on V-J Day. "The way he tells the story, he served on the destroyer, USS The Sullivans, and was attending Radio City Music Hall that day. The program was stopped to announce the end of the war, and everyone was so excited they ran to Times Square, wrote Katie. There Mendonsa kissed a nurse and was photographed by the famous Alfred Eisenstaedt. Mendonsa's future wife, Rita, was in the distance. A search was made in 1980 to identify the sailor. He identified himself by a tattoo 'G.M.' on his right arm, by his hair line, and by a lump on his arm that could be seen in a close up. 'Even though Life magazine never officially said that George Mendonsa is the Kissing Sailor, I think he really is. It's nice to have met a celebrity,' the young student concluded." -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Trading uniforms with the Germans I can understand, but buying this Tiger is going too far! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 11:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steven VEST Subject: Re: TRV: The Kissing Sailor In-Reply-To: <9402111512.AA03813@solar.nova.edu> Joe: You may not be aware that there is a certain amount of dispute as to the exact identity of the couple in the "kissing sailor" picture. The magazine has apparently had numerous people write to them claiming to be one of the people in the picture. I'm not sure it has ever been (or can be resolved). Just more trivia. ==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed=========================== = Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL = ="It seems I woke up in the bathtub, in an undignified position. My scepter= =and my holy henchmen gone." Dave Gordon, I dreamed I was Cardinal Richelieu= ================No statements made here reflect Nova University============== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 11:48:30 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: LBSCOTT@ECUVM1.BITNET Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 11 Feb 94 08:55:56 EST from WWW or World wide webb is a gopher server. It is on Mosaic and sunsite among ot her places. Enjoy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 10:51:14 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: CAPT Tim Taylor USN Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: <9402111659.AA28695@gate.ncts.navy.mil> On Fri, 11 Feb 1994 LBSCOTT%ECUVM1.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu wrote: > WWW or World wide webb is a gopher server. It is on Mosaic and sunsite among ot > her places. Enjoy. Need to be careful with the jargon here. Both WWW and gopher are client-server schemes. The server lives with data and responds to inquiries from the client, which lives with the user. The Navy Public Affairs Library employs a WWW server and an FTP server but not a gopher server. The only requirement for your client program is that it must know how to interact properly with our WWW or FTP servers: For WWW: http://www.ncts.navy.mil/navpalib/.www/welcome.html For anonymous FTP: log in to ftp.ncts.navy.mil then cd to pub/navpalib Anyone with questions or problems concerning NAVPALIB should send email to navpalib@opnav-emh.navy.mil. We will help you make it work. Thank you. CAPT Tim Taylor, USN Email: Tim.Taylor@ncts.navy.mil Navy Office of Information Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078 Washington, DC 20350-1200 Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767 - Please send NavNews email to navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 13:34:21 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ronald A Wilson Subject: Request for Information Text item: Text_1 Does anyone know of a gopher with a line into the Pentagon? I'm an AF Reserve CMSgt and want to communicate with the office of the Chief Master Sergeant of the AF. I found, through the World Health Organization (I think), a list-serv for government/military but have not been able to access it. Are there offices at the Pentagon on any of the civil nets? Appreciate any help or advice.... Ron Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 13:04:34 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: Army Green Book Series question In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 04 Feb 94 12:58:09 -0500. <9402042052.AA20812@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > Bob, > I have a suggestion for you. Rather than get BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT, buy > Martin Blumenson's new version THE BATTLE OF THE GENERALS. It just came out. > He told me that this version would be more critical of Allied leadership, and > it surely is. It is published by William Morrow. It does not have the tactic al > detail of the Green Book, but I still highly recommend it. > > LTC Con Crane > USMA thanks for the recommendation. One thing I like about the Green books is the Maps. There are so few books with good maps with them. I understand why, it raises the cost of publishing substantialy. Especially when done as full color foldouts as the Green books do. I will look forBlemensons book. I guess it is easier to be critical when the subject of the criticism isn't the one paying the bills :-) Bob Smart 6+" of snow on top of 1" of ice, still snowing and another storm heading this way on Sunday. Good time to settle in the basement and catch up on e-mail. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 14:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <9402081513.AA11272@agaviion.agfx.com> I haven't seen the movie yet; plan to this weekend if the snow lets up. I do recommend the book of the same title, by Thomas Kenneally. He's a great author, and the story is incredible and well told. I don't know if its in the movie, but one memorable chapter was set near the end of the war, when Schindler and his workers were jointly sabatoging the war materials he was contracted to build. Many of his workers died of natural causes, and the description of a Jewish funeral ceremony, for Jews who died of natural causes in Nazi Germany, 1945, has always stayed with me as a powerful symbol of what Schindler did. As a half-German, Schindler also represents the too-small minority of Germans who held onto their honor and goodness for all Germans. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 15:01:00 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: <9402081518.AA11306@agaviion.agfx.com> Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, etc.? *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 23:29:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships... Re the "inevitability of Japanese victory". It has been a while since I've seen the video. What sticks in my mind was the coverage of the land fighting, esp. Edson's Ridge. As I recall the fighting was a lot tougher than the impression given in the video. Kevin Brown ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 06:41:11 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: <01H8RZ44RP4Y9PML0S@KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU> On Fri, 11 Feb 1994, Jim Benn wrote: > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? > Jim, The paratroopers museam in Arnhem is worth going through, though it is small. I stayed with friends there and possibly the most fascinating part of my visit was the guided tour by an elder who was an eyewitness to the events. A startling number of homeowners have elected to leave the marks of that war a half century ago. i.e. There were two holes in my friend's home's exterior of substantial size. Another interesting item pointed out by my aspect made by my tourguide was two sites where kids had been injured along the river when they had unearthed, in 1987, unexploded gernades or shells. Have fun, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 10:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary I'd be interested in recommendations for museums, historical sites, in Europe this spring too. george bauer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 11:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: On Fri, 11 Feb 1994, Jim Benn wrote: > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? Obviously see all the beaches & don't miss Point Du Hoc. There are various museums along the way (one called _Normandy D-Day Museum_ if I remember correctly. Also make sure to visit the American Military Cemetary. If you are at all interested in any other periods of history, you should also visit the museum in Bayeux and see the original tapestry. In Arnhem, I found the most interesting was just walking around the bridges and surrounding area rather than visiting the museum. Make sure you have at least a day and lots of film though. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:34:01 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 11 FEB 1994 02:01:00 EST > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? > > > > > > > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* > |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| > |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| > |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* Jim - If you get to London, try the Cabinet War Rooms and a trip to Chartwell (Churchill's home.) Both played a substantial role in WWII. The Imperial War Museum has a Blitz simulation and is excellent over all - Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, New York (30" of snow so far and counting!) jzml@maristb.marist.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:45:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary Jim Benn was asking for information on museums and places to visit in Normandy. The recent issue of the Army Historian carries an excellent account of a professional "staff ride" conducted to Normandy by officers from Ft Benning under direction of retired General Smith, who was a participant i nthe landing. The article mentions a great many places to visit and why. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:27:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" Subject: Re: GEN: Re: A General Douglas MacArthur quote X-To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET Larry and Kim, You recently requested a General MacArthur quote. I obtained this quote from the last page of Gen.MacArthur's autobiography *Reminiscences*, which stated: On May 12, 1962, I was awarded the Sylvanus Thayer Medal, the highest honor of the United States Military Academy. That day, I reviewed the Corps of Cadets on the Plain at West Point, lunched with them at the mess hall, and responded to the presentation. The General concluded his presentation with the following comments: The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished tone and tint; they have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen vainly, but with thirsty ear, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange mornful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory, always I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes in my ears - Duty - Honor - Country. Today marks my final roll call with you. But I want you to know that when I cross the river my last conscious thoughts will be of the Corps - and the Corps - and the Corps. Larry, I'm glad to see that you are back in "battery" again. May you always have "Fair winds and following seas." Another poignant quote was obtained from *The Years of MacArthur,Volume Two, 1941-1945*,author, D.Clayton James, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1975. This statement was made by the General on the quarter-deck of the U.S.S.Missouri (BB-63) , 2 Sept 1945, which had been arranged for him to broadcst a radio message to the world. A portion of his broadcast follows: Men since the beginning of time have sought peace . . . Military alliances, balances of power, leagues of nations, all in turn failed, leaving the only path to be by way of the crucible of war. We have had our last chance. If we do not now devise some greater and more equitable system, Armageddon will be at our door. The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and culture developments of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh. Carl Wernke TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 13:43:52 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: GEN: Re: A General Douglas MacArthur quote Carl and Larry, If you are interested, that MacArthur speech at West Point is available on tape from the Accociation of Graduates here. That is the same speech that Paul Fussell uses in WARTIME as an example of military bombast with no redeeming value or inspiration. I sometimes wonder if he does not really understand the military culture, though he admits he writes from the perspective of a "pissed-off infantryman," or if we just don't understand him. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 19:29:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: MacArthur's speech. In-Reply-To: <199402131851.AA05117@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Crane Conrad LTC" at F I remember when I arrived at the Academy on 1 July 1964, how that speech set the tenor of the place. Bracing there on (Old) Central Area, you could almost hear the echoes of it, still. MacArthur really evoked Academy-spawned professional service -- maybe for all time. Fussell apparently does not understand the call to Duty and other martial ideals. Such ignorance/insensitivity often produces the ingratitude/betrayal we have seen so often in our history. Considering the inevitability of some one nation/culture gaining absolute strategic hegemony -- and soon -- such an attitude is as self-dooming as it is unworthy. Lou Coatney, x1968 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:17:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 11-13 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES FRIDAY, 11 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain L-5, Stinson Sentinel P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang SBD, Douglas Dauntless (USN) TBF, Grumman Avenger (USN) AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 77th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 28th Bombardment Group (Composite), moves from Amchitka Island to Attu Island with B-25s. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 10 A-36s and P-51s hit the supply area at Sawnghka; 12 A-36s and P-51s and a single B-25 bomb a supply and bivouac area at Pyindaw; 8 P-51s hit a road junction near Mogaung and nearby supply area; 8 P-51s and P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe a large river steamer and a launch in the Mandalay-Shwebo area. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 P-38s knock out 1 bridge and damage another at Sheklung; 6 B-25s, escorted by 20 US and Chinese P-40s, bomb the storage area at Kai Tek Airfield; the P-40s claim 5 Japanese fighters shot down; Japanese aircraft bomb and strafe Namyung putting the field out of use for several days. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 218: 94 of 201 B-24s bomb the Siracourt V-weapon site in France with PFF equipment; the remaining aircraft were assigned individual targets without PFF and were unable to locate their targets; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 17 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 10 MIA; escort is provided by 85 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 41 P-51s without loss. The primary target for 223 B-17s is the marshalling yard at Frankfurt, Germany; 157 hit the primary, 32 hit Ludwigshafen, 19 hit Saarbrucken and 4 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 3-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 124 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 26 WIA and 51 MIA; escort is provided by 82 P-38s, 486 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 38 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 30-2-28 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 2-1-4 on the ground; 8 P-38s, 4 P-47's and 2 P-51s are lost, 2 P-47's and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 2 P-38s and 4 P-47's are damaged; casualties are 14 MIA. Mission 219: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Ghent, Brussels and Antwerp, Belgium at 2118-2146 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Most of the 139 B-26s dispatched to attack NOBALL (V-weapon) targets in N France are recalled because of bad weather; 35 manage to bomb the marshalling yard at Amiens. 495th and 497th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 460th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 760th, 761st, 762d and 763d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Spinazzola, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 19 Mar. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s and P-39s dive-bomb and strafe hangar, airfield installations and gun positions on Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Wunapope; 22 B-25s, escorted by USN fighters, pound Vunakanau Airfield; Tobera Airfield is bombed by 15 B-24s with P-38 and USN fighter escort. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): About 50 B-24s pound the airfield at Kavieng, New Ireland Island, and 2 bomb Garove Island. 7 B-24s bomb Kendari Airfield, Celebes Island and Dili, Timor Island. P-40s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) aircraft pound Japanese forces still remaining in the Saidor, New Guinea area. Fighter sweeps and armed reconnaissance continue over wide areas of the SWPA. 25th Liaison Squadron, 512th Photographic Wing (Provisional), arrives at Lae, New Guinea from Brisbane, Australia with L-5s. SATURDAY, 12 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-40s hit the town of Ransa and motor convoys S of Sumprabum; 40 P-51s and A-36s attack bivouacs at Walawbum, bivouac and motor pool at Padaw, storage area at the road junction near Chishidu and the town of Chishidu; 30+ P-51s and B-25s hit camps between Tsumhpawng Ga and Walawbum, storage area and motor pool S of Kamaing, motor convoy on the Myitkyina-Sumprabum road, the town of Namting and bridges at Meza and Kanni. 59th Fighter Squadron, 33d Fighter Group, arrives at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 9 P-40s pound the warehouse area at Wanling, Burma. In French Indochina, 6 P-40s bomb the barracks at Vinh and strafe Dong Cuong Airfield, railroad yards at Cam Duong, and sampans at Phu Tho; 5 B-25s on a sea sweep in the Gulf of Tonkin claim 2 trawlers sunk and hit shore targets of opportunity SW of Haiphong; a single B-25 damages a bridge at Ha Trung. 24 P-38s, P-51s, and P-40s intercept 25 Japanese fighters near Suichwan, China, claiming 7 shot down; 2 US fighters are lost. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 220: 97 of 99 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at St Pol/Siracourt, France; 29 B-24s are damaged; no losses or casualties; escort is provided by 84 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 41 P-51s; no claims, losses or casualties. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 370th Fighter Group and 401st, 402d and 485th Fighter Squadrons arrive at Aldermaston, England from the US with P-47's; the unit will transition to P-38s and fly their first mission on 1 May. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s and B-24s strike troop concentrations and highways in the Cecina area and near Lake Nemi. Bad weather causes all other missions to abort. HQ 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 756th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) arrive at Giulia Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack gun positions at Campoleone and the surrounding area; B-26s hit Cecina; A-36s hit aircraft and trucks on the landing ground and in the area near Fahrica di Rorila, attack troops in the area, bomb gun positions SW of Roccasecca, and hit the towns of Fondi and Lanuvio; P-40s attack Gisterna di Roma, Sezze station and road junction, Cori and gun positions NW of Atina. HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group and 14th and 15th Troop Carrier Squadrons begin a movement from Sciacca, Sicily to England with C-47s. HQ 62d Troop Carrier Group and 7th Troop Carrier Squadron move from Ponte Olivo, Sicily to Brindisi, Italy with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; A-24s and P-39s from Makin Island bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23 B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighters in support, bomb Tobera Airfield; 21 B-24s, escorted by P-39s and USN fighters, pound Vunakanau Airfield; P-40s join USN fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Lakunai. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Brigadier General Carl W Connell resumes command of the V Air Force Services Command. About 50 A-20s blast occupied areas SE of Wewak, New Guinea. SUNDAY, 13 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ZONE OF INTERIOR: The Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) accepts revision of the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) Plan. The targets are reduced to a number that can be decisively attacked and target lists are revised to keep up with the effort of the Germans to relocate vital industrial plants. Disruption of communication lines and reduction of the Luftwaffe are high priority aims included in the CCS directive on this date. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 P-51s and a B-25 damage a road bridge and 2 warehouses in the Wuntho area; 32 P-51s and A-36s hit the supply area and radio installations S of Kamaing and blast bivouacs S of Walawbum; 18 P-51s hit the road and railroad junction N of Sahmaw, a bivouac N of Kamaing and a camp between Tsumhpawng Ga and Walawbum; during the night, 16 B-24s bomb Heho Airfield. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 23 B-24s pound railroad shops at Vinh; 4 B-25s hit a convoy E of Foochow, China claiming 3 freighters and a transport sunk; 4 other B-25s damage 2 vessels off SW Hainan Island and bomb dock, railroad, and oil dump at Bakli on Hainan Island; 6 P-40s bomb and strafe barracks and hangars at Phu Tho and strafe freight cars at Yen Bay and Suo Ha. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 221: V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of France are hit; 266 of 277 B-17s hit 12 sites and 138 of 192 B-24s hit 5 sites; 12 B-24s hit targets of opportunity; they claim 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17s are lost, 2 B-17s and 2 B-24s are damaged beyond repair, and 74 B-17s and 57 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 23 WIA and 24 MIA. Escort is provided by 189 P-47s and 43 P-51s; they claim 6-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-4 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost and 4 P-47s damaged; no casualties. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 182 B-26s attack V-weapon sites in the coastal area of France; 16 others bomb secondary targets in the area. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are restricted to weather reconnaissance. 757th and 758th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at Giulia Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the Bucine viaduct; B-25s and A-20s support Fifth Army forces N and E of the Anzio beachhead, blasting an ammunition dump and troop and vehicle concentrations; P-40 and A-36 fighter-bombers give support in the same areas, hitting troop concentrations, a railway tunnel, buildings, vehicles, a supply dump, and gun positions. Units moving from Sicily to England: HQ 52d Troop Carrier Wing from Agrigento; HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group and 32d Troop Carrier Squadron from Castelvetrano with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 13/14 Feb, B-24s from Tarawa Atoll operating individually at intervals, bomb Wotje and Mille Atolls and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 20 B-25s bomb Tobera Airfield and 23 B-24s bomb Lakunai Airfield; both forces are escorted by fighters; P-40s and USN fighters escort USN SBDs and TBFs dive-bombing runway and AA positions at Vunakanau. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 24 A-20s hit Aitape, New Guinea. 70+ B-25s pound Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island and 35 B-24s bomb Kavieng Airfield on New Ireland Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:25:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 14 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell F-5, Lockheed Lightning F-7, Consolidated Liberator P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang TBF, Grumman Avenger (USN) CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): P-51s and A-36s carry out 70+ sorties against a variety of targets in Burma; targets include the supply area at Shingban, a truck convoy N of Maingkwan, supply dumps and motor transport in the Kamaing area, a bivouac near Mogaung, troop and vehicle concentrations between Mogaung and Kamaing, artillery positions at Laawn Ga, and railroad station and warehouses at Lundaung. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): General Dwight D Eisenhower establishes HQ Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF). Chief of Staff, Supreme Allied Commander (COSSAC) comes under control of SHAEF. STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 222: 48 P-47s are dispatched to Eindhoven Airfield in the Netherlands; the primary target is overcast and 46 of 48 hit Gilze-Rijen Airfield without loss. 22d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) based at Mount Farm, England, sends a detachment to operate from Attlebridge, England with F-5s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s attack the marshalling yards at Modena, Brescia, and Verona and several targets of opportunity including the airfield and Piaggio aircraft factory at Pontedera and railroad bridges and lines at Parma, Sassuolo, Rubiera, and S of Vicenza; B-17s and escorting P-47s claim 20 fighters shot down; B-24s bomb the marshalling yards at Mantua, Verona, Massa Lombarda, Fenara and Arezzo, and targets of opportunity including the Pisa and Prato marshalling yards, airfields at Pisa and Pontedera, and road-rail junction near Vaiano. 759th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Giulia Airfield from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): The Twelfth Air Force loses several of its operational units, the 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 33d and 81st Fighter Groups being moved to India, and the 52d Troop Carrier Wing and its 4 groups being sent to England. In Italy, B-25s bomb the Perugia marshalling yard, A-20's hit Grottaferrata; A-36s attack guns in the Pontecorvo area, railway yards at Civita Castellana and Frosinone, motor transport near Genzano di Roma, airfield at Furbara, and Ferentino railway station, some of the missions being in direct support of the US Fifth Army main front; P-40s bomb and strafe troop concentrations N and E of the Anzio beachhead, scoring hits on tanks, motor transport and guns near Cisterna di Roma, Cori and Rocca di Papa; P-47s hit Colleferro and dump at Valmontone; P-40s score direct hits on a vessel and fuel dump in the Rogoznica area. 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, begins a movement from Capodichino, Italy to India. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 40+ B-24s from the 11th and 90th Bombardment Groups (Heavy), flying out of Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll strike Ponape Island in the first Seventh Air Force raid on the Caroline Islands; 2 of the B-24s hit the alternate target of Emidj Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, B-24s bomb the Rabaul area in a diversionary strike while US Navy (USN) TBFs lay mines in Simpson Harbor; 30 escorted B-25s pound Vunakanau Airfield while 28 B-24s, also with escort, bomb Rapopo Airfield; P-40s and USN fighters escort a USN dive-bomber raid on Tobera gun positions and airfield revetments; 4 B-25s also bomb Tobera. On Bougainville Island weather clears, permitting the first attacks, by 19 B-25s, on Kara and Kahili, in recent weeks; P-39s attack Puriata River bridges. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): A-20s with P-40 support, bomb and strafe Dagua airfield, New Guinea, destroying and damaging 20+ aircraft. 80+ plus B-25s pound Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island. 40+ B-24s bomb the airfields at Kavieng and Panapai on New Ireland Island. 20th Combat Mapping Squadron, 6th Photographic Group, moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with F-7s; first mission is 5 Apr. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:32:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: AIRSHOWS IN NE USA AIRSHOWS IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, 1994 ISSUE 1, FEBRUARY 14, 1994 This is the latest list of airshows in the Northeastern U.S. that I have been able to compose. The list is sorted by state and any military aerobatic team appearing is noted. Also noted is any known telephone numbers; please call the telephone number listed for further information. I will gladly update this list with any additions, changes and/or deletions. Just e-mail me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com CONNECTICUT ----------- Meriden: Aug 28, 14th Annual Police Union Airshow, Meriden Markham MAP DELAWARE -------- Dover: May 7-8, Dover AFB Airshow '94, featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (302) 677-3281 New Castle: Oct 8-9, EAA East Coast Fly-In, Greater Wilmington Arpt DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA -------------------- May 19-21, Joint Services Open House/Kodak Balloon Race, featuring the USN Blue Angels, (904) 223-4362 MAINE ----- Bingham: Sep 24-25, 25th Gadabout Gaddis Fly-In, (207) 672-4135 or (207) 672-3978 MARYLAND -------- Andrews AFB: May 20-21, Open House, featuring the USN Blue Angels, (301) 981-4511 College Park: Sep 17-18, College Park Air Fair Middle River: Sep 17-18, Chesapeake Airshow Ocean City: Sep 23-26, Gathering of Heroes MASSACHUSETTS ------------- NAS South Weymouth: Jun 11-12, Air Expo '94 featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (617) 786-2875 Westover AFB: Aug 27-28, Great New England Air Show, (413) 557-3587 NEW HAMPSHIRE ------------- Concord: Jun 25-26, International Air Festival, 603) 225-8747 Portsmouth: Jul 23-24, New England Escadrille Warbird Airshow NEW JERSEY ---------- Millville: Jun 11-12, Millville Army Airfield Pittstown: Aug 5-7, Magic of Alexandria Sussex: Aug 26-28, Sussex Airshow NEW YORK -------- Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Fest, (607) 732-9898 Fulton: Jul 9-10, Central New York International Air Show Geneseo: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow, (716) 243-0690 Monticello: Aug 6-7, Air-O-Dynamics, Air Expo & Show, (914) 794-2212 Plattsburgh: Jul 9, Clinton County Airshow Poughkeepsie: May 13-15, Great Hudson Valley Balloon Race, 914) 462-2600 Poughkeepsie: Oct 1-2, Autumn Warbird Fly-In, (914) 462-2600 Schenectady: Sep 10-11, Schenectady Airshow "Empire State Heroscience Museum" featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (518) 377-2191 PENNSYLVANIA ------------ Allentown: Sep 17, Queen City Airport Day Avoca: May 28-29, Wilkes Barre/Scranton International Airshow, featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (717)-655-3077 Erie: Jul 16-17, Erie International Airshow, 814) 833-7343 Franklin: Jun 25-26, Wings Over Venango Latrobe: Sep 3-4, Westmoreland County Airshow featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (412) 539-8100 Meadville: Sep 17-18, Meadville Air Expo NAS Willow Grove: Jun 18-19, Sounds of Freedom, featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (215) 443-6035 Philadelphia: Jul 1-6, Confederate Air Force Quakertown: Jun 3-5, Bucks County Balloon & Air Festival, 215) 997-9519 Toughkenamon: Jun 11-12, New Garden Airshow Williamsport: Jun 25-26, Lycoming County Airshow RHODE ISLAND ------------ North Kingstown: Jun 4-5, Rhode Island National Guard Open House (401) 886-1423 VERMONT ------- Burlington: Sep 17-18, Burlington International Charity Airshow featuring the USN Blue Angels, (802) 496-3473 VIRGINIA -------- Langley AFB: Aug 6, IFW Community Appreciation Day Manassas: Sep 17-18, Manassas Air Show Classic '94, (703) 361-0575 NAS Norfolk: Apr 23-24, International Azalea Festival featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (804) 445-4774 NAS Oceana: Sep 10-11, Open House featuring the CAF Snowbirds, (804) 433-3131 Norfolk: Jun 4-5, Harborfest WEST VIRGINIA ------------- Beckley: Aug 6-7 Charleston: Sep 10-11, Wings Over Charleston Huntington: Jun 4-5, Tri-State Anti Drug Airshow featuring USN Blue Angels ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:10:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: N AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SKED NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1994 ISSUE 3, 14 FEB 94 The following is the combined schedules for the North American military aerobatic teams for the 1994 show season and includes schedules for shows in: Canada Japan Korea Malaysia Singapore Thailand United States This list is sorted by country and Province and State. The three teams covered in this post are: Canadian Armed Forces Snowbirds U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds U.S. Navy Blue Angels Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated. Please e-mail them to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com. I. CANADA --------- ALBERTA ------- Edmonton: Snowbirds, 21-22 May Peace River: Snowbirds, 26 Jul Slave Lake: Snowbirds, 10 May BRITISH COLUMBIA ---------------- Abbotsford: Snowbirds, 12-14 Aug and Blue Angels, 13-14 Aug Comox: Snowbirds, 7 Aug Fort Nelson: Snowbirds, 12 May Kelowna: Snowbirds, 18 May Penticton: Snowbirds, 28 Jul Prince George: Snowbirds, 14-15 May Sandspit: Snowbirds, 5 May Terrace: Snowbirds, 3 May Vanderhoff: Snowbirds, 23-24 Jul Victoria: Snowbirds, 17 Aug MANITOBA -------- Grand Beach: Snowbirds, 8 Jul St Andrews (Winnipeg): Snowbirds, 30-31 Jul NEW BRUNSWICK ------------- Chatham: Snowbirds, 28 May Shediac: Snowbirds, 24 Aug NORTHWEST TERRITORY ------------------- CFS Yellowknife: Snowbirds, 1 May NOVA SCOTIA ----------- Greenwood: Snowbirds, 29 May Shearwater: Snowbirds, 17-18 Sep ONTARIO ------- Cobden: Snowbirds, 31 May Hamilton: Snowbirds, 18-19 Jun London: Snowbirds, 4-5 Jun Ottawa: Snowbirds, 2-3 Jul Parry Sound: Snowbirds, 28 Jun Toronto: Snowbirds, 3-5 Sep Trenton: Snowbirds, 25-26 Jun QUEBEC ------ Bagotville: Snowbirds, 11-12 Jun Gaspe: Snowbirds, 7 Sep Montmagny: Snowbirds, 15 Jun Rimouski: Snowbirds, 9 Jun St George De Beauce: Snowbirds, 5 Jul St Jean: Snowbirds, 20 Aug Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, 30 Aug Sherbrooke: Snowbirds, 21 Aug Thetford Mines: Snowbirds, 6 Jul Val D'Or: Snowbirds, 7 Jun SASKATCHEWAN ------------ Moose Jaw: Snowbirds, 29 Apr, 9-10 Jul and 14 Oct YUKON TERRITORY --------------- Whitehorse: Snowbirds, 8 May II. JAPAN --------- Kadena AB (Okinawa): Thunderbirds, 14 Aug Misawa: Thunderbirds, 10 Aug III. KOREA ---------- Osan AB: Thunderbirds, 13 Aug IV. MALAYSIA ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 20 Aug V. SINGAPORE ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 23 Aug VI. THAILAND ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 18 Aug VII. UNITED STATES ------------------ ALASKA ------ Elmendorf AFB: Thunderbirds 6 Aug ARIZONA ------- Glendale: Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov Luke AFB: Blue Angels, 16 Apr Mesa: Thunderbirds, 19-20 Mar ARKANSAS -------- Little Rock AFB: Blue Angels, 26-27 Mar Little Rock: Snowbirds, 28 Sep CALIFORNIA ---------- Castle AFB: Thunderbirds, 9 Oct Miramar: Blue Angels, 19-21 Aug MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, 29 Apr-1 May NAF El Centro: Blue Angels, 12 Mar NAS Lemoore: Thunderbirds, 14-15 May Redding: Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun Salinas: Blue Angels, 15-16 Oct San Francisco: Blue Angels, 8-9 Oct Travis AFB: Thunderbirds, 8 Oct COLORADO -------- Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: Thunderbirds, 1 Jun Broomfield: Thunderbirds, 30-31 Jul DELAWARE -------- Dover AFB: Thunderbirds, 7-8 May FLORIDA ------- Kissimmee: Snowbirds, 8-9 Oct MacDill AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-27 Mar Miami: Blue Angels, 5-6 Nov NAS Jacksonville: Blue Angels, 24-25 Sep NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, 11-12 Nov Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, 16 Jul Punta Gorda: Blue Angels, 9-10 Apr Sanford: Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct Tyndall AFB: Thunderbirds, 16 Apr GEORGIA ------- NAS Atlanta: Blue Angels, 1-2 Oct Robins AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-23 Oct HAWAII ------ NAS Barbers Point: Thunderbirds, 27 Aug IDAHO ----- Lewiston: Snowbirds, 21 Jul ILLINOIS -------- Chicago: Blue Angels, 27-28 Aug Springfield: Blue Angels, 30-31 Jul IOWA ---- Davenport: Blue Angels, 25-26 Jun Dubuque: Snowbirds, 21 Sep KANSAS ------ McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, 18-19 Jun KENTUCKY -------- Bowling Green: Thunderbirds, 24-25 Sep LOUISIANA --------- Barksdale AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Apr Lake Charles: Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov NAS New Orleans: Blue Angels, 29-30 Oct MARYLAND -------- Andrews AFB: Blue Angels, 20-21 May U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis: Blue Angels, 23-25 May MASSACHUSETTS ------------- NAS South Weymouth: Thunderbirds, 11-12 Jun Westover AFB: Snowbirds, 27-28 Aug MICHIGAN -------- Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, 4 Jul K.I. Sawyer AFB: Thunderbirds, 2 Jul Selfridge ANGB: Blue Angels, 11-12 Jun Traverse City: Blue Angels, 2-3 Jul MISSOURI -------- St Louis: Snowbirds, 24-25 Sep NEVADA ------ Nellis AFB: Thunderbirds, 20 Nov NEW MEXICO ---------- Roswell: Blue Angels, 7-8 May NEW YORK -------- Scotia: Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep NORTH CAROLINA -------------- Wilmington: Thunderbirds, 9-10 Apr NORTH DAKOTA ------------ Minot: Blue Angels, 23-24 Jul OHIO ---- Cleveland: Blue Angels, 3-5 Sep Dayton: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Jul OKLAHOMA -------- Muskogee: Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct Oklahoma City: Snowbirds, 16-17 Jul OREGON ------ Portland: Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul PENNSYLVANIA ------------ Avoca: Thunderbirds, 28-29 May Latrobe: Thunderbirds, 3-4 Sep NAS Willow Grove: Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun SOUTH CAROLINA -------------- Florence: Snowbirds, 5 Oct MCAS Beaufort: Blue Angels, 23-24 Apr McEntire ANGB: Thunderbirds, 1 May Myrtle Beach: Thunderbirds, 5 Jun Shaw AFB: Thunderbirds, 30 Apr TENNESSEE --------- Chattanooga: Blue Angels, 28-29 May NAS Memphis: Blue Angels, 10-11 Sep TEXAS ----- Dyess AFB: Blue Angels, 19 Mar El Paso: Snowbirds, 1-2 Oct Ft. Worth: Blue Angels, 22-23 Oct Goodfellow AFB: Thunderbirds, 22 May Houston: Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct Kelly AFB: Thunderbirds, 21 May Laughlin AFB: Thunderbirds, 18 Sep NAS Corpus Christi: Blue Angels, 14-15 May Sheppard AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Sep VERMONT ------- Burlington: Blue Angels, 17-18 Sep VIRGINIA -------- NAS Norfolk: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Apr NAS Oceana: Snowbirds, 10-11 Sep WASHINGTON ---------- Seattle: Blue Angels, 6-7 Aug and Snowbirds, 6 Aug WEST VIRGINIA ------------- Huntington: Blue Angels, 4-5 Jun WISCONSIN --------- Eau Claire: Blue Angels, 9-10 Jul WYOMING ------- F.E. Warren AFB: Thunderbirds, 27 Jul ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 15:01:38 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Richard Cummings Organization: Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Inc. Subject: Dresden I thought this would be interesting to the List: British, US officials mark anniversary of Dresden bombing DRESDEN, Feb 13 (nca/AFP) - British and U.s. officials today commemorated the death of tens of thousands of people during Allied air raids which started on February 13-14, 1945 in the eastern german city of dresden. They marked the 49th anniversary of the carpet-bombing of the saxony capital with a wreath-laying cermony this morning in front of the monument to the victims. The ceremony was attended by Saxony's state prime minister Kurt Biedenkopf, the mayor of dresden, and British and u.s. officials. At the time of the bombing, Dresden was the temporary home of 500,000 refugees who were fleeing the soviet army coming from the east. Because of the large number of refugees in the city it was never firmly established how many people got killed in the raids, which continued until april 17. estimates have put the number of civilian dead in the Dresden raids at between 35,000 and 135,000 --==oo00oo==-- cummingsr@rferl.org RFE/RL Inc Munich,Germany ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:12:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: AIRSHOWS IN NE USA In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:32:00 EST from In regards to the postings on airshows in the northeast: >> NEW YORK >> -------- >> Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Fest, >> Fulton: Jul 9-10, Central New York International Air Show >> Geneseo: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow, (716) 243-0690 >> Monticello: Aug 6-7, Air-O-Dynamics, Air Expo & Show, (914) 794-2212 Due to some contractual problems, the 1941 Wings of Eagles airshow will NOT be held in Geneseo this year. The WOE airshow will be held in Batavia, New York on the above dates. The National Warplane Museum, which sponsors the airshow, still continues to operate from Geneseo, New York. In case anyone is not familiar with the WOE airshow this year, it is a fly-in of WWII-era warbirds. Traditionally there number from 100 to 150 warbirds along with demonstrations by some aircraft in our nations current inventory. If anyone would like more information feel free to contact me anytime. National Warplane Museum Ron Babuka Geneseo, New York Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:48:37 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Dresden It is accepted that most authoritative estimate of the number of persons killed during the 1945 bombing of Dresden was in the report issued by the Chief of Police of Dresden -- approximately 35,000. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 15:31:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary I would recommend visiting Mortain, the site of the 30th Divisions stand against the German attach toward Avranches in August 1944. There is a very nice book out about this battle: "Saving the Breakout" by Allwyn Feather- ston which give a detailed discussion of the battle based on interviews with veterans. I was in France last fall and spent several days in Mortain using the maps in the book as a guide-- it was quite enjoyable driving around and not so overwhelming as the D-Day beaches in scope. From the church atop Hill 314 you can literally see to Mont St. Michel (over ten miles away) which gives you a sense of the importance of the position. There is a retired Engish tanker who runs a bed-and-breakfast in the community (he was out of town when I was there, but I spoke with him on the phone and he was quite enthusiastic about visitors interested in the battle. I can get his name if you want. Sincerely, Don Bowden Winston-Salem, NC bowden@mgrp.bgsm.wfu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 17:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Bombing of Japan Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo were bombed after the Dolittle raid? Thanks. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 02:09:35 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Journal of Military History Could someone give me the lowdown on obtaining a subscription to the _Journal of Military History_ for the Society for Military History. In addition, I would like to pose a question that might raise some dispute. My two minor field for my PhD are Modern US with an emphasis on World War II, and Military (Primarily Early Modern). My budget allows me to join a limited number of organizations, and thus I ask for opinions concerning which organizations and journals would best suit my academic interests and development. As a pertinant note, my detailed interests are in the area of military technology. Thanks ahead of time, Monte Turner (By the way I have posted this note to both Milhst and WWII, so those of you subscribing to both please excuse the double posting.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 07:02:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 15 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES TUESDAY, 15 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): P-40s, P-51s, and A-36s hit targets in Burma, including rice mill and radio station at Waingmaw, targets of opportunity along the Hukawng-Walawbum road, motor pool and dumps in the Kamaing area, troops and supplies at Padi Ga and a canal bridge at Ye-u; P-40s also drop land mines on Nampaung. HQ 443d Troop Carrier Group is moved from the US to Sylhet, India without personnel and equipment. The 1st, 2d and 27th Troop Carrier Squadrons, already in the theater, will be assigned on 6 Mar. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s on a sweep in N French Indochina score a direct hit on a steamer at Haiphong and nearby railroad station, damage bridges near Viet Tri and a patrol launch at Hanoi, and hit engine sheds at Thanh Hoa. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 223: 52 of 54 B-24s hit V-weapon sites at St Pol/Siracourt, France; 29 B-24s are damaged; no losses or casualties. Mission 224: 95 P-47s are dispatched to bomb 2 airfields in France but are recalled; 1 P-47 is damaged; no casualties Mission 225: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets on Orleans, Chartres, Cambrai, Le Mans, Lille and Reims, France at 2124-2155 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 194 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites, Cherbourg/Maupertus Airfield and targets of opportunity during a morning mission. 122 B-26s again bomb V-weapon construction sites in the coastal area of N France during the afternoon. HQ IX Air Support Command moves from Middle Wallop to Uxbridge, England. HQ 316th Troop Carrier Group arrives at Cottesmore, England from Sicily. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, around 100 B-17s bomb the Monte Cassino Benedictine Abbey. 60+ B-24s attack the Poggibonsi marshalling yard, Campoleone and Porto d'Ascoli; heavy cloud cover causes numerous aborts; all the missions are unescorted. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s and B-25s bomb the Monte Cassino Benedictine Abbey in support of the New Zealand Corps assault to establish a bridgehead across the Rapido River S of Cassino; other B-26s bomb the railroad at Monte Molino and marshalling yard at Montepescali; A-20s attack motor transport, roads and road junction in the Albano Laziale area and NW of Valmontone; P-40s bomb concentrations near Cisterna di Roma and dumps in the Valmontone and Rocca di Papa areas; A-36s hit concentrations N of the Anzio beachhead, strafe trucks and barracks in the Frosinone-Rieti areas, bomb the Tiburtina and Trastevere marshalling yards in the Rome area and hit buildings N of Velletri. Units beginning a movement from Sicily to England with C-47s: 29th Troop Carrier Squadron, 313th Troop Carrier Group, from Trapani/Milo Airfield; 36th and 37th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 316th Troop Carrier Group, and 62d Troop Carrier Squadron, 314th Troop Carrier Group, from Castelvetrano. 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, begins a movement from Montecorvino Airfield, Italy to India. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island pound Mille Atoll and Ponape Island; 10 P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe runways and a disabled vessel at Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 23 B-25s, with fighter cover, bomb the runway and dispersal area of Vunakanau Airfield on New Britain Island; 20 B-24s hit Borpop Airfield on New Ireland Island causing heavy damage in the runway and revetment areas. In ground action, US and New Zealand troops land on Nissan Island in the Green Islands, 40 mi (64 km) NW of Buka on Buka Island; opposition is weak and organized resistance will end on 23 Feb. 424th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases operating from Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24s and returns to base on Guadalcanal Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): On New Ireland Island, 70+ B-24s, A-20s, and B-25s bomb the Kavieng town area, harbor, and shipping and Panapai Airfield; 17 other B-24s, prevented by weather from reaching Panapai, bomb Talasea on New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:41:57 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan >Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo >were bombed after the Dolittle raid? > >Thanks. > > > ========================================================================= > | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | > | | Computers in Business & Education. | > | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| > | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | > | | Central Europe: Post revolution | > | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | > | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | > | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | > | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | > ========================================================================= > George, The first raid against Japan after the Doolittle mission was conducted by XX Bomber Command B-29s that took off from Bengal and refueled in China. 75 were dispatched, 68 actually got airborne, and only 47 actually bombed the target at Yawata. Arnold really pushed for the raid too early, the long flight and lack of proper preparation resulted in the 28 aircraft that did not make it to the target. The B-29s had been rushed to the field and the bugs wouldn't really be worked out of them until mid-1945. Oops, I forgot to mention that the date of the raid was 7 June 1944. Bombing results were dismal. The first B-29 strike on Tokyo came on 24 November 1944. It was the first strategic mission for B-29s of the XXI Bomber Command in the Marianas. 111 bombers took off, but due to a number of difficulties only 24 bombed the main target. 64 others hit secondary targets in the city. Carrier strikes scheduled for the same time were cancelled. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 10:10:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Journal of Military ... HI Monte, The Journal of Military History is the quarterly you get by being a member of the Society for Military History. The Journal is the only refereed scholarly journal in the field and the society has a large membership of folks active in this field. You can send annual membership fee of $25 to the society at the George Marshall Library, Lexington VA 24450 1600. Write to Henry Bausum the editor. You can also order a great membership directory that will clue you in on who many of the active folks are. But as a student you get a discount, sorry I don't know how much. Then come to the annual meeting in DC in April. The World War II Studies Association is a much smaller and less active group in the sense that they do not have as an large annual meeting or a full fledged quarterly. The dues are $15. They publish a very fine quarterly newsletter, however, that contains much news of scholarly activity on the subject, especially notes on what is coming out of archives lately. The newly elected chairman is Donald Detwiler and secretary is Robert Wolfe. He is at the Battle of Normandy Foundation 1730 Rhode Island Ave NW, Washington DC 20036 Those two organizations would be the ones I suggest you look into. Cheers John Sloan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:59:28 -0600 Reply-To: "Robert J. Granvin" Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan > >Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo > >were bombed after the Dolittle raid? > > George, > The first raid against Japan after the Doolittle mission was conducted > by > XX Bomber Command B-29s that took off from Bengal and refueled in China. 75 Given some time (we are planning to take care of this a little later this year anyways because of the timeliness), I will be able to provide a first hand account of the first mission back to Tokyo (not to be confused with the first mission back to Japan as above...) As a short summary, our B-25 is restored in the colors of the 310th Bomb Group, aka "Doolittle's Boys." It made it's maiden flight in honor of the 50th anniversary of the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo (and coincidentally happened less than two days prior to that anniversary). With the request to have our B-25 fly over the Doolittle funeral at Arlington last year, we've also made better contacts with the Doolittle family (including John himself). Bud Faktor is also now a member who will be helping us crew the airplane (Bud is the brother of one of the three who were killed in the raid (three others were captured and executed)). Bud may very well be onboard during the hoped-for mass B-25 flyover at Fresno this April for the Doolittle Reunion. But back to the return to Tokyo, our B-25 has two chief mechanics -- Ray Ostlie was the original Crew Chief of Miss Mitchell in Corsica and Italy. He is primarily charged with coordinating restoration and authenticity. The man who is charged with mechanical perfection of the aircraft is Gene Andreotti. He found himself given a choice between B-17s and B-29s. Since he knew the war was nearly over in Europe, the B-17 was a very well known aircraft, the flighter threat was becoming non-existent, he had been fully trained for months on the B-17 systems exclusively and the general concensus was that the B-29 was a stupid airplane that would never fly, he chose B-17s. This, of course, guaranteed his assignment to the Pacific and B-29s. :-) To make a longer story without all the details yet short, Gene found himself onboard a B-29 during the first raid back to Tokyo. He has vivid memories of those nighttime missions and the "inaccurate" Japanese flak guns blowing B-29s out of the air, watching B-29s collide in the dark and even watching B-29s bombing other B-29s. It was not a safe place to be, and he contends the USAAF technique early on did much more damage to the fleet than the Japanese ever did. Hank Potter (Doolittle's Navigator) and Gene met for the first time a couple of years ago. "Gene, this is Hank Potter. He was on the first raid against Tokyo." "Hi, I'm Gene. You got there only one mission ahead of me..." :-) We've got a lot of little projects in the fire -- but not enough people to take care of them. Anyone in the upper-midwest area want to do some oral history interviews? -- Robert J. Granvin rjg@stat.umn.edu University of Minnesota, School of Statistics "I'm my father? I'm my mother? I'm chipped beef on toast?" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 10:48:32 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS schedules In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 14:28:00 CST I have several events and updates to the calender. The Weldon Springs event is still up in the air--no confirmation on it yet. New events to add: April 23, Aurora , IL, WWII Commemorative Fundraiser--USO show May 21, Fleming Field, MN, USO Dance (contact Rob Granvin) May 26-29, Ft. Bragg, NC, All-American week living history display June 12 Aurora, IL, Living History display and Spectator Battle August 5-7, Holoman Fld, St Paul, MN, 17th Annual Airpower Display (contact Rob Granvin) Sept 10-11, Danville, IL, Illiana Remembers-50 years of Change, Vermillion County Airport, Battles and Displays Sept 17, Fleming Field, MN, USO Dance, (contact Rob Granvin) All the new events are WWIIHRS, except for the Minnesota event which are CAF. If anyone has any events they'd like to add to the calender in the next iteration, please send the info directly to me. I have points of contact for most events if you need further information. Tanks in Advance! TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- The Jefferson Barracks event is scheduled for April 30-1 M. I am posting the WWII Historical Reenactment Society and WWII Airman's Preservation Society schedule of events, as they stand today. March (date unspecified) WWIIHRS, Weldon Springs, MO, Weldon Springs Reeanctment, This event is presently up in the air. Weldon is the birthplace of WWII reenacting, and has been closed for several years due to toxic and radioactive waste cleanup. The HRS is presently working with the Army reserve to get the site opened for reenacting again. More details will follow, if they develop. March 27-28, WWIIHRS, Rosemont, MN, Western Front Battle April 30-1 May, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks (South St Louis County), MO battle reeanctments and displays, Saturday night includes a USO show and dance. WWIIAPS members will be present as well. May 27-30, WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS, Columbia, MO, Salute to Veterans, display on Saturday and Sunday, parade on Monday, A very large airshow with many aircraft. Blue Angels performed Memorial Day '93. 4 June, WWIIHRS, Chicago (lakefront), IL, D-Day reenactment, to include landing craft provided by the USN, event to be covered live by WGN. 4 June Weekend, WWIIHRS (event sponcered by WWII Historical Reemactment Federation), 5 day D-day event, includes 2 days of spectator landings, 1 day of tactical combat village battle, and a USO show. (this one is supposed to be the reenactment to end all reenactments) More details to follow. June 11-12, WWIIAPS, Dyersburg, TN, airshow June 25-26 (date not confirmed), WWIIHRS (sponcered by 11th Panzer), New Lenox, IL, Airshow and battle reenactments, small event but good campsites and the public can get up close to the reenactors July 15-17 WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, airshow July 28-August 2, WWIIAPS, Oshkosh, WI, EAA Fly Inn (need I say anymore? September 3-5, WWIIAPS, Louisville, KY, Clark County Airport, Airshow September 21-24, WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, 91st Bomb Group Reunion, (WWIIAPS portrays the 91st, so this is a big event) September (no date specified), Chesterfield, MO, Spirit of St Louis Apt, Airshow (this event was canceled last year due to floating lear jets) December 17, WWIIAPS, Chicago, IL, Christmas Party, probably to be held at 91st Aero Squadron near O'Hare Airport, St Louis members last year took the train to and from the event. As you can see, the WWIIHRS calender has not filled up yet--more info should be coming later about events. If anyone has any questions, please contact me direct. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 11:42:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Robert L Sherrod According to the New York Times, Robert L. Sherrod, author of: TARAWA: THE STORY OF A BATTLE (1944, available through the Admiral Nimitz Foundation), ON TO WESTWARD; THE BATTLES OF SAIPAN AND IWO JIMA (1945, Nautical & Aviation), and HISTORY OF MARINE CORPS AVIATION IN WORLD WAR II (1952, Nautical & Aviation) died of emphysema yesterday, 14 Feb 94, in Washington, DC. He was 85. Sherrod went ashore with the Marines at Tarawa and stayed until the island was secured. At the time, Sherrod was an associated editor of TIME magazine and had covered various phases of the war in the Pacific. His book about Saipan and Iwo Jima has been praised as one of the outstanding books of reporting on World War II. Sherrod was also a co-author of the text of: LIFE'S PICTURE HISTORY OF WORLD WAR II (1950) and APOLLO EXPEDITIONS TO THE MOON (1975. Requiescat in pace. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:34:41 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: Time Line Event To all World War II reenactors, There will be a Time Line encampment sponsered by the Smoke and Fire News to be held on June 18-19 at Ft. Meigs, Perrysburg, Ohio (10 minutes south of Toledo). All impressions are welcome to come. The Time Line will have represented periods from the days of the Vikings to 1945. There will be living history demonstrations from each period. If you and your unit are interested, contact Smoke and Fire News at 1-800-766-5334 or write Smoke and Fire News P.O. Box 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 Andrew Rowden arowden@crassus.onu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:46:20 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: World War II Reenacting Could someone recommend to me a U.S. WW II unit in Ohio - possibly the Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, or Toledo areas - to join. I was a member of the WWII HRS about 10 years ago in Northern California but was not active with any unit at the time. I would be very interested in starting up again now that I live in Ohio. Also, are there any events to be held in the Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky areas this season. Thank you for your help. Andrew Rowden arowden@crassus.onu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 15:51:52 EST5EDT Reply-To: JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jon Kay Organization: McGill University - Mining Engineer Subject: WWII sites in Greece. Since people are talking about WWII historical spots in Normandy, I thought I might ask if anybody knows any interesting spots in Greece? My friends are going to Greece this summer and I'm going along. I would like to incorporate some WWII historical sites in my itinerary. I know that Crete was the site of the first (only?) all-airborne assault in WWII - are there any good sites or museums there? What about the rest of Greece? ------------------------------------------------ above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA ------------------------------------------------ "...In perpetrating a revolution, there are two requirements: someone or something to revolt against and someone to actually show up and do the revolting. Dress is usually casual and both parties may be flexible about time and place but if either faction fails to attend, the whole ennterprise is likely to come off badly. In the Chinese revolution of 1650 neither party showed up and the deposit on the hall was forfeited...." - Woody Allen, from WITHOUT FEATHERS. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 17:03:44 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: WWII sites in Greece. > Since people are talking about WWII historical spots in Normandy, I > thought I might ask if anybody knows any interesting spots in > Greece? My friends are going to Greece this summer and I'm going > along. I would like to incorporate some WWII historical sites in my > itinerary. I know that Crete was the site of the first (only?) > all-airborne assault in WWII - are there any good sites or museums > there? What about the rest of Greece? > > ------------------------------------------------ > above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA > ------------------------------------------------ Hi Jon, I know of no particular battlefields or museums about the Second World War in Greece that are set up for visitors. I had friends stationed on Crete and one even lived in the house that the German commander used as his billet but nobody was able to find out much about the battle outside the base library. Greece is more interested in showing off its Classical history rather than its more recent history. Italy is the same way. There is a market section of Athens called the Plaka and there are dealers who sell souvenirs of WWII for (typically) astronomic prices. A friend of mine reported his neighbor finding a German helmet on a hill outside Athens on a visit there in 1991 (a far better price than at the Plaka). I went to Corfu in 1992 and there were some military looking ships rusting in the harbors near Paleokastritsas and Corfu city. Corfu, a resort island near the Greek mainland, was the only successful operation of conquest in Greece by the Italian Army. The only other military items I saw on the island were brass vases and lamps made >from British and German artillery casings. A lot happened there (especially Crete) but nothing has been done about it that I could discover. I think there are some cemeteries there but that's about it. :-( Sorry, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:08:01 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan Con, I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded Paramushiro in the Kuriles. The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the main islands since Doolittle. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:17:12 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: USAAF 15 FEB 44 The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive position. Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm eulogizing the loss. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 16:35:18 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: RAF Pathfinders I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some information... Can anybody help me with - 1. Any refernces on the subject, 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been associated with them, 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. Thanks Wilber. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 01:23:48 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan A correction to my earlier post. The composition of the TF that bombarded Paramushiro was taken from Rohwer & Hummelchen's *Chronology of the War at Sea, 1939-1945. According to the article "First Surface Strike on Japan" in this month's Naval Institute's *Proceedings*, the TF actually was comprised of the CL's Richmond & Raleigh and the DD's Picking, Sproston, Wickes, Young, Charles J. Badger, Luce, and Kimberly. The article also mentions that the first raid on the Kurile's was on 20 Dec, 1943 by Ventura's and Catalina's of Fleet Air Wing Four. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:15:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Lady Be Good Lady Be Good Kevin Kamphaus asked some info about this plane a week ago. In the December 1959 volume of RAF Flying Review I found the story of the "Lady Be Good" as told by Captain James M.Paule, first USAF flight sergeon at the scene to Larry Ruddock. Here some lines: In April 1943 was she member of the 376 BG based at Solluch, on the coastle trip south of Benghazi. Twenty-five Liberators of the 376 th took of for their mission against airfields around Naples, 750 miles to the north. Take-off time was 1330 hours, tot at twilight and be back at base 2400 hours. The mission was not one of the great of the war, only 11 planes hit the primery target, the others clobbered the secondary. Almost all the machines had engine trouble, caused by sand getting into the engines, but by midnight all were accounted for. Except one - "Lady Be Good" At twelve minutes past midnight on the morning of April 5, "Lady Be Good" called Benina for a fix. The records show that Benina tower gave the fix as requested, and that the message was received by the "Lady Be Good" That was the last contact between the Liberator and its base. She did not return. She was thought to have crashed in the sea. The next-of-kin of her nine crew members received a "lost in action" telegram. No further clue to the mystery was revealed until the discovery, sixteen and a half year later, of the "Lady Be Good" wreckage 440 miles from the coast in the heart of the Sahara desert. Radio still working, coffee still drinkable- but no trace of any human being. The crew of the "Lady Be Good" 1 lt William J.Hatton, New York, N.Y. 2 lt Robert F.Toner, North Attleboro, Mass. 2 lt D.P. Hays, Lee's Summit, Mo 2 lt John S.Woravka, Cleveland, Ohio T/Sgt Harold S.Ripslinger, Saginaw, Mich. T/Sgt Robert E.Lamotte, Lake Linden, Mich. S/Sgt Guy E.Shelley, New Cumberland, Pa. S/Sgt Vernon L.Moore, New Boston, Ohio S/Sgt Samuel R.Adams, Eureka, Ill. Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 07:10:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 16 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 16 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Baltimore, Martin (RAF) C-47, Douglas Skytrain F4U, Vought Corsair (USN) L-5, Stinson Sentinel P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, A-36s and P-51s hit supply dumps, troop concentrations and an encampment area near Myitkyina, Kamaing, Tonkin and Walawbum; B-25s and P-51s destroy 3 locomotives at Kyaingkwin. 118th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, AAF, India-Burma Sector (attached to Tenth Air Force), arrives at Gushkara, India from the US with P-51s. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-25s knock out a railroad bridge at Yen Bay, French Indochina and damage 2 other bridges to the S near the coast. 74th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, based at Kweilin with P-40s, sends a detachment to Liuchow. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24s, unescorted, bomb marshalling yards at Pontassieve, Siena, Poggibonsi and Prato, a bridge at Cecina, and a railroad and highway near Rieti. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb the Orte marshalling yard and attack the Campoleone area; B-26s bomb San Stefano al Mare and hit the area near the Perugia railroad bridge, a bridge N of Orvieto, a factory near the Marsciano bridge and a bridge at Albinia Station; A-20s, with Royal Air Force (RAF) and South African Air Force (SAAF) Baltimores and Spitfires, hit concentrations in the Anzio battle area; A-36s bomb the Rome/Tiburtina and Rome/Ostiense marshalling yards in the Rome area; P-40s attack Monte Cassino Abbey, pound tanks, trucks, and troop concentrations along the US Fifth Army front, and hit the towns of Fondi and Roccasecca; fighters over Anzio encounter increased air effort in conjunction with an all-out ground offensive against the Allied beachhead. 61st Troop Carrier Squadron, 314th Troop Carrier Group, begins a movement from Castelvetrano, Sicily to England with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll bomb Wotje Atoll and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll; P-40s from Makin Island fly 2 bombing-strafing strikes against Jaluit Atoll; A-24s bomb Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 12 B-24s, with 30+ P-38s and US Navy (USN) F4Us, pound the runway at Vunakanau Airfield on New Britain Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 40+ B-25s attack a convoy off New Hanover Island. 30+ B-24's bomb Panapai Airfield and Kavieng on New Ireland Island, and some hit Cape Balangori and Talasea, New Britain Island. 19 B-24s and B-25s bomb Halong in the Celebes Islands. P-40s hit shipping and barges in the Wewak, New Guinea area. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 345th Bombardment Group (Medium) from Dobodura to Nadzab; 25th Liaison Squadron, 5212th Photographic Wing (Provisional), from Lae to Nadzab with L-5s. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 08:37:16 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: GEN re: Bombing of Japan In-Reply-To: from "Steve Alvin" at Feb 15, 94 11:08:01 pm Steve Alvin writes: |-> |-> Con, |-> |-> I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't |-> untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. |-> Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe |-> (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF |-> under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh |-> and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded |-> Paramushiro in the Kuriles. |-> |-> The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the |-> main islands since Doolittle. Well, all my good sources are at home. I seem to recall that there were carrier strikes against Japan at some point. The question is whether they came before the AAF returned to bombing. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:05:47 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan >Con, > >I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't >untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. >Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe >(before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF >under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh >and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded >Paramushiro in the Kuriles. > >The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the >main islands since Doolittle. > >-- >Steve Alvin >salvin@heartland.bradley.edu > Steve, You are correct. I was only looking at the main islands. Con ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:16:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: GEN re: Bombing of Japan >Steve Alvin writes: >|-> >|-> Con, >|-> >|-> I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't >|-> untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. >|-> Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe >|-> (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF >|-> under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh >|-> and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded >|-> Paramushiro in the Kuriles. >|-> >|-> The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the >|-> main islands since Doolittle. > > Well, all my good sources are at home. I seem to recall that >there were carrier strikes against Japan at some point. The question >is whether they came before the AAF returned to bombing. > > --Sid >-- >Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com >Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== >4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 >Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 > Sidney, I checked those, and the carrier strikes against the home islands started after the initial B-29 raids. Operation HOTFOOT, carrier raids on Tokyo, was supposed to go with the November raid, SAN ANTONIO I, but was cancelled. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:35:24 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Re: USAAF 16 FEB 44 I pose the following question reguardless of the risk of sounding a twit: I tried to FTP to 129.71.32.152, connected, but like some dumb suitor, was refused. I tried anonymous & guest & nothing. Do you need to have an account to connect or just know what you are doing? Thanks in advance. >>><<< >>><<>><<>><<>><<< 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf >>><<< 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ >>><<< wwii_chronology >>><< Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:43:04 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Guns of Navarone site/memorial? In-Reply-To: <199402151648.AA08724@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET OK, stop laughing, everybody. WAS there a German coastal gun emplacement that interdicted Royal Navy support/rescue of the abortive Dodecanese landings. (And when were they -- 1944?) Anybody know? Wasn't there a wargame about the operation, as well? Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:42:04 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders >I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told >her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some >information... > >Can anybody help me with - > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > associated with them, > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > >Thanks > >Wilber. > >+------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | >|Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | >|The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | >|Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | >+------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Wilber, I can recommend some sources. Gordon Musgrove's PATHFINDER FORCE would probably be the best book for your friend. Some other good sources are Martin Middlebrook's BERLIN RAIDS and John Terraine's TIME FOR COURAGE. There are some excellent videos that I have seen on PBS dealing with RAF night bombing, but I can't remember the names right now. Derek Monz, a countryman of yours, should be on this net someplace, and he has done a lot of work on radar bombing that should also be useful to you. I think his E-Mail is gldrm@manta.jcu.edu.au. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:36:48 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael P LaForge Subject: Camp Fannin|IRTC, Texas i would be interested in corresponding with anyone who trained or was cadre at Camp Fannin IRTC during the period May 1943-Dec 1945. please respond directly, as therer seems to be a lot of action on this list already and this is not of much intrest to most. thanks in advance ******************************************************************************* Mike LaForge, QASAS USADACS,USATCES,ESL,DERP-FUDS EMAIL: mlaforge@savanna-emh1.army.mil DSN: 585-8762 COMM: 815-273-8762 IN PARTIBUS INFIDELIUM ******************************************************************************* ZZ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 08:54:11 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Guns of Navarone site/memorial? Nope. Fiction, is all. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:05:38 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders AS you'll know, there were a notably large number of Australians in Pathfinder Force, RAF. So there'll be a goodly amount of research material available right in your own back yard. Incidentally, for a slightly "different" insight in to the mind of courage required to be a Pathfinder, I recommend you read: NO PASSING GLORY, by Andrew Boyle, UK, 1955. Its the biography of Group Captain Leonard Cheshire, VC, DSO, DFC. After war service leading Pathfinders (and British Observer at Nagasaki) he turned to helping the terminally ill and destitute, founded the Cheshire Homes, and died just last year, a very well-loved man. Regards from the "other Victoria", British Columbia -- just across the Pacific from you. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 11:23:09 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Cassino Operations > The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one > of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey > of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the > Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance > on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made > a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they > moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive > position. > > Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision > for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm > eulogizing the loss. > > -- > Steve Alvin > salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Hi Steve, Don't feel to bad. It looks as good as new now. I was there in 1992 and I can see why it had to go. Cassino is one of the most misunderstood battles of modern times. While true that the Germans had no guns at the abbey they certainly had observers for the guns that were dug into the surrounding hills. The observers did not even have to be in the abbey itself to call down fire on any part of the valley below, in fact, the entire mountain it sits on dominates the valley below on 3 sides. It was no accident that this site was picked as the cornerstone for the Gustav line. It has been discussed as *the* example of an ideal defensive position in German military texts for over 100 years. Add to all this the fact that the dams on the Volturno and Rapido Rivers were destroyed and the flood plane of those rivers turned into a morass of sticky mud and the *really* pissy weather they have there this time of year - drizzly rain with subfreezing temps in the hills and gusty winds and you get a hell of a nasty place to try to attack. Also, while the abbey was not fortified the town of Cassino certainly was. Buildings were turned into pillboxes with tanks and concrete reinforced bunkers being positioned *inside* buildings completely masking them from the outside. Now consider the allied position, multinational forces arrayed against this objective which on the surface appear to be able to roll over the German defenders except for the key factor that they could only be committed piecemeal due to the narrow avenues of approach which were completely under German observation (and pre-zeroed artillery). The US 36th Division was given the assignment of crossing the Rapido which cost the division dearly getting across only to be unsupported and the remnants that did make it across were ordered back or risk being captured. The battle was reviewed by congress at the request of the 36th Division with the goal of having action taken against General Mark Clark for incompetence (he was found not to be at fault - but Clark was never welcome in the State of Texas after that). After weeks of fighting allied forces began day and night attacks against German positions in the hills only to loose personnel by falling to their deaths on the steep drop-offs in those hills and German artillery smashing into the rocks that multiplied the effect of shrapnel by spraying the blast area with rock fragments as well as steel shards from the shells. For days the troops never saw the sun. US artillery fired countless rounds of smoke during the course of the battle in hopes of obscuring the exposed troops on the valley floor from German observation. Allied armor was completely useless against dug-in, zeroed-in 88s in the hills that the tanks couldn't elevate enough to engage let alone spot or even penetrate if they did see what to shoot at and could elevate. The only avenue of approach for the tanks was right up the Naples - Rome highway as everything else was a swamp. To relieve the months long stalemate of Cassino, Churchill pushed for and got the Anzio landings which were hoped to pull defenders from the Cassino area and save that action from total collapse. The landing caught the Germans completely cold and the commanding general of the landing force dug in and built a strong bridgehead. The road to Rome was completely open and he could have occupied it that day and he had been criticized by some historians for not doing this but his orders were to relieve Cassino by drawing off German units, not take Rome. If he had stretched his units out to do that Kesselring would have diced them up very quickly. In fact, Kesselring later commented that the allied commander at Anzio did just what Kesselring feared the most, a solid force landing behind the Gustav line and not allowing itself to be pushed back into the sea. This too was a part of the German plan as their strategy was to fall >from one line to the next and stall the allies as long as possible tying up units and supplies. The Germans realized that they could not hold indefinitely and were buying time with the Gustav Line, the Adolf Hitler Line and the rest. The Germans wanted to set up a line that would cause the allies to have to amass for an attack and then the Germans would fall back to the next prepared line costing the allies months in preparation for offensives that (while successful) bought the Germans valuable time with acceptable losses. It has been suggested that the Italian campaign was Churchill's baby and that is why he pushed premature operations like Cassino and Anzio. He wanted to have "The soft underbelly of Europe" under allied control and attack Germany from the South rather than through France. As it turned out, Italy proved to be no pushover and even when all effective German resistance broke down after the Po River crossing by allied forces, seasoned units like the US 36th had been pulled out of the Italian campaign to attack Southern France just when it looked like the Germans were finished in Italy. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. What was the question?? :-) Oh yea, the abbey and its treasures. It has been completely rebuilt and the manuscripts and artifacts had been evacuated before the allied bombing which, by the way, the allied first "bombed" with leaflets saying they would be bombing the abbey and to move anything they didn't want to loose which the Germans took as a propaganda opportunity to "rescue" the abbeys treasures. The German fallschirmjaegers (paratroops) put up an amazing defence and had the respect of the allied units they fought. Truces were arranged so both sides could recover the killed and wounded and it was an operation that was carried out with a relatively high degree of civility. This is evidenced by the fact that this year (May) there is going to be a 50th anniversary of the battle attended by participants of all countries who fought there Axis and Allied. The Germans who fought there invited the 36th Division specifically to share the reunion with them. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 12:43:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Col Vermont Garrison According to the New York Times today (16 Feb), Colonel Vermont Garrison, US Air Force Retired, died of a heart attack at his home in Mountain Home, Idaho on Monday, 14 Feb. He was 78. Garrison was a fighter pilot in World War II, Korean and Vietnam and was credited with 17 kills. He was born in Mount Victory, Kentucky and enlisted in the Royal Air Force during World War II where he trained as a fighter pilot. Transferring to the US Army Air Forces in 1943, he flew P-47s and P-51s and was credited with 7 victories. He was shot down by ground fire in early 1944 and spent a year as a POW. In 1953 during the Korean War, he was the commander of the 335th Fighter Squadron flying F-86s and was credited with 10 kills. In Vietnam, he flew F-4s until retiring in 1973. Requiescat in pace. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:16:59 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: USN/RN Jargon, Comm, bases etc... In-Reply-To: <9402161549.AA29517@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU" at Feb 16, 94 9:43 am Hi all, I need to know the following for a book project: USN/RN Communications (between ships, to coastal bases etc) The Jargon used by the commanders/crews The Bases used and info on them (mines, etc) USN/RN Anti-submarine weapons If anyone could point toward some top-of-the-line books on the subjects above it would be great :) Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: <9402161553.AA29848@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Crane Conrad LTC" at Feb 16, 94 10:42 am Hi all, Can anyone here on the list locate on which USN destroyers/frigates L RON HUBBARD commanded in WWII? He was commanding some sub hunter in the Atlantic but ended WWII in the Pacific commandind another sub hunter I think. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:36:44 CST Reply-To: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help Well, a mildly unusual request... :-) I'm looking for people who have an interest in collecting non-sport trading cards OR who are willing to make a few phone calls/visits in their area to help me complete a set. In 1992, a set of 50 cards were released which feature the artwork of Alberto Vargas (the Varga Girl which was very popular as WWII nose art). In late 1993, a second set of 50 cards were released which is still fairly plentiful (though the sources are all drying up). The SERIES I cards are still available, but difficult to find. I have a complete set of series II, but need to complete Series I. (The Gatefold that inspired the nose art for Miss Mitchell is apparently both in Series I and part of the ones I'm missing... Typical... I STILL can't find a copy of the December '43 Esquire...) Our intention is to collect as much Varga art as possible, even in the recently printed card variety, to be used as a display comparing the original art to that as it appeared on the noses of Liberators, Mitchells, Forts and a zillion other planes. The cards are actually a great way to do it, because they are a lot cheaper than the originals (ouch!) and they are a lot smaller, which is great when you are VERY space deprived. The packs, when they can be found, sell for $1.00 each (for a set of 8 cards). I'm missing probably about 30 of them, and willing to purchase up to 50 packs (at present time). If anyone can assist me in tracking down some Series I packs, I'd appreciate the effort and will reimburse all expenses (please check with me before putting me in debt, though... :-) The card set is known as "The Pin Up Girls" (or very similar) and published by 21st Century Archives. Keep in mind -- I am not interested in Series II, which is easy to find... Any help out there? -- Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:24:13 -0230 Reply-To: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: OLAF Subject: Q: Curtis Aircraft Company This question is not directly related to WW II, but a number of people on this list might be able to provide an answer. A colleague is working on the development of the Curtis flying boats of the *First* World War era (she's particularly interested in the flying boats of the type involved in the first trans-Atlantic flight in 1919). She's trying to track down the company's papers, if they still exist. The "Curtis Papers" at the Library of Congress turned out to be nothing more than newspaper clippings. Can anyone suggest where the company papers might be found today? With thanks in advance, Olaf Janzen Dept. of History Sir Wilfred Grenfell College Corner Brook, Newfoundland e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 16:30:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Smith Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT from L Ron Hubbard as commander of a USN warship is a frightening thought! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:23:56 +1000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Derek Monz Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders In-Reply-To: <199402160638.AA28811@marlin.jcu.edu.au> On Wed, 16 Feb 1994 ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU wrote: > I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told > her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some > information... > > Can anybody help me with - > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > associated with them, > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > > Thanks > > Wilber. Well Wilber, There are a few books that you can look at. 1. The Berlin Raids, by MArtin middlebrook. 2. The Strategic air offensive in Europe 1939-45 ( the official history). But the authors names escape me. 3. The bombing of Dresden, by David Irving ( its not all that bad). 4. The right of the line: The air war in europe 1939-45 by Max Hastings. If you want further info, e-mail me direct and I'll give you chapter and page no.'s.etc. cheers Derek MOnz. EMail: Derek.Monz@jcu.edu.au Msc (Geology)@ JCU 1993 Disclamer: - I didn't do it! " If there is anything more important than my Ego..... I want it taken out and shot!" (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)). ((-------)) \o/ | _/ \_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura In-Reply-To: <9402162234.AA07635@agaviion.agfx.com> My boss flew in the Pacific during WWII; he told me he flew anti-shipping strikes in Lockheed Venturas. I'm not familiar with this plane- is it a light bomber, or more like a Catalina? Any background info on Venturas would be appreciated; it's always nice to be able to speak intelligently with the boss! Thanks. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 15:06:14 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Cassino Operations Cassino was finally captured by Polish troops. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 00:31:42 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura The Lockheed Ventura was a militarized version of the Model 81 Lodestar civil transport. The British approached Lockheed in 1939 about the conversion of the Lodestar. They already were will plsed with the Lockheed Hudson, which was based on the Super-Electra airliner. In Feb, 1940, the British Purchasing Commision placed an initial order for 25 aircraft. Lockheed subcontracted the airplane to Vega. The first bomber flew on 7/31/41 and the British ordered 650, but only 394 were delievered, the rest were retained by the Americans for their own use after the U. S. became involved in the war. In British service, the Ventura served as a daylight bomber with mediocre success until August, 1943, when the last Ventura equipped squadron war re-equipped with Mosquitoes or Mitchells. (Ooops, S/B Sept, 1943) In American service, the Ventura was called the B-34 by the Army Air Corps and the PV-1 by the Navy. I'm not familiar with the operations of the B-34, but the PV-1 saw most of its operations in the Pacific, especially in the Aleutians where it served as a recon plane, a bomber, and as a anti-submarine aircraft. Some PV-1 were converted into gunships by increasing the number of machineguns in to the nose and by installing a belly pack. New Zealand and, I think, Australia also operated the Ventura. Late in the war, an improved Ventura, the PV-2 was introduced. Specifications for the Ventura I: Crew 5; power plant two 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp Gr2800 S1A4-G; span 65' 6"; length 51' 5"; wing area 551 sq ft; empty weight 17,275 lbs, loaded weight 27,250 lbs; bomb load 2,500; max speed 315 mph at 15,500'; service ceiling 25,000'; range 925 miles with max bomb load; armament two fixed forward firing .50 mg's and 2 depressable .303 mg's in nose, two or four .303 mg's in dorsal turret, and two .303 mg's in ventral position. The most obvious difference in the American aircraft when compared to the British is that the British had a Boulton Paul Turret, while the U. S. planes had the standard American turret. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:08:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 17 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES THURSDAY, 17 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 38 A-36s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance hit troops and supplies from Lonkin to Kamaing; 6 P-51s hit supply areas along roads around Lonton and Manywet; 2 others hit a road junction near Maingkwan; 2 B-25s and 6 P-51s strike a road bridge, railroad station, and rail cars in the Pyingaing area; 2 B-25s and 6 P-51s attack but fail to damage a bridge near Ye-u. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s on a sweep of the Gulf of Tonkin score 2 direct hits on a freighter at Vinh, damage a bridge approach and locomotive at Yen Xuon Station, and destroy a locomotive at Yen Ly Station. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advanced HQ, Ninth Air Force, is opened at Hillingdon House, Uxbridge. It is later joined in the area by advanced units of the IX Fighter Command and by troop carrier units, all of which form a nucleus of advanced echelons so as to centralize tactical operations in anticipation of combat on the Continent. Arrivals in England from Sicily: HQ 52d Troop Carrier Wing at Cottesmore; 15th Troop Carrier Squadron, 61st Troop Carrier Group, at Bardston with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The 455th and 456th Bombardment Groups (Heavy) become operational giving the Fifteenth Air Force 12 B-24 groups. In Italy, unescorted B-17s and B-24s attack Campoleone and Grottaferrata, motor transport parks in the Campoleone junction and Rocca di Papa areas, a troop concentration near Frascati, stores depots in the Grottaferrata area, and other targets in advance of the US Fifth Army's Anzio battle line which is under heavy counterattack by German forces. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb the Campoleone and Lanuvio area, B-25s hit dumps SW of Rome and N of Anzio, and also hit guns nearby; A-20s blast a dump and troop concentrations in the Anzio area; P-47s bomb dumps near Valmontone; A-36s hit Carroceto, concentrations SE of Rome, and a railroad underpass and a factory N of Anzio; P-40s blast enemy transport, guns, and assembly areas N of Cisterna di Latina, trucks N of Anzio and N of the beachhead battleline, railroad stations at Campoleone and Carroceto, and bivouac areas, dumps, a factory, and bridge in the battle area; this entire air effort (the heaviest to date in support of troops) is aimed at helping prevent a breakthrough at the beachhead, where the Germans are committed to a full-strength counter- offensive; A-36s bomb Monte Cassino Abbey in the only air action on the US Fifth Army main front. Detachment of 23d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, operating from San Servero, Italy with F-5, returns to base at Alghero, Sardinia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Ponape and Kusaie Islands, and Jaluit Atoll. P-40s strafe floatplanes off Emidj Island, as a US Navy (USN) Task Force begins a heavy attack on Truk Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 20 P-40s join 40+ USN fighters in covering an attack by 70 USN dive bombers on shipping in Keravia Bay, New Britain Island; 8 Japanese aircraft are claimed shot down; 2 USN fighters are lost. In the N Solomons Allied fighters hit Queen Carola Harbor, Kessa Plantation and a bridge N of Kahili. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 40 B-24s bomb Panapai Airfield, New Ireland Island and Talasea, New Britain Island. 16 B-25s claim 2 surface vessels and a submarine sunk off New Hanover Island. 16 P-47's strafe targets of opportunity in the Alexishafen, New Guinea area. HQ 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Feb 94 08:23:56 +1000. <9402162237.AA00482@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > On Wed, 16 Feb 1994 ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU wrote: > > > I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told > > her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some > > information... > > > > Can anybody help me with - > > > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > > associated with them, > > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > > > > Thanks > > > > Wilber. > > > Well Wilber, There are a few books that you can look at. > > 1. The Berlin Raids, by MArtin middlebrook. Middlebrook also did a book on The bombing of Hamburg & Nuremburg that would be worth looking at. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:17:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura >The Lockheed Ventura was a militarized version of the Model 81 Steve, good post. I think you fat-fingered the keyboard because I believe the Ventura was a Model 18. If you read my USAAF posts, the RNZAF used Venturas in the Solomons campaign as bombers. I did some checking one time and found that the RAF had 3 squadrons of Ventura bombers in the UK during 1943(?). I believe one squadron was RAF, one RAAF and one RNZAF. I will be nice to the aircraft and just say that it left a lot to be desired as a light bomber and the Brits finally got smart and relieved them of that job and gave them a maritime recon job they could handle. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:28:22 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ray Fairall Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura I don't know anything about Locheed Venturas except that the Royal Australian Air Force has a magnificantly restored flying example with turrents etc. I have only seen pictures but I have seen an equally magnificantly restored Lockheed Loadstar at a local airshow! Regards Ray. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:19:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help >Well, a mildly unusual request... :-) > >I'm looking for people who have an interest in collecting non-sport >trading cards OR who are willing to make a few phone calls/visits in >their area to help me complete a set. > >In 1992, a set of 50 cards were released which feature the artwork of >Alberto Vargas (the Varga Girl which was very popular as WWII nose art). >In late 1993, a second set of 50 cards were released which is still >fairly plentiful (though the sources are all drying up). > >The SERIES I cards are still available, but difficult to find. I have a >complete set of series II, but need to complete Series I. (The Gatefold that >inspired the nose art for Miss Mitchell is apparently both in Series I and >part of the ones I'm missing... Typical... I STILL can't find a copy of the >December '43 Esquire...) > >Our intention is to collect as much Varga art as possible, even in the >recently printed card variety, to be used as a display comparing the >original art to that as it appeared on the noses of Liberators, Mitchells, >Forts and a zillion other planes. The cards are actually a great way to >do it, because they are a lot cheaper than the originals (ouch!) and they >are a lot smaller, which is great when you are VERY space deprived. > >The packs, when they can be found, sell for $1.00 each (for a set of 8 >cards). I'm missing probably about 30 of them, and willing to purchase >up to 50 packs (at present time). > >If anyone can assist me in tracking down some Series I packs, I'd appreciate >the effort and will reimburse all expenses (please check with me before >putting me in debt, though... :-) > >The card set is known as "The Pin Up Girls" (or very similar) and published >by 21st Century Archives. Keep in mind -- I am not interested in Series II, >which is easy to find... > >Any help out there? > >-- >Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing >rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force > Robert, I checked one of my son's card catalogues, and one company offers the whole 1992 set for $15. Address is: Faraday Baseball Co. 17 South Morton Ave. Morton, Pa. 19070 Phone : 215-328-6864 If they don't have anymore, I think that there were one or two others listed who might. Good luck. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:31:13 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Casino Operations Bill Huber's interesting account of the Casino operations is the only place I've ever heard a defense/vindicatino of the Anzio landings (of which my uncle took part in a tank). I've heard the battle highly criticized as a failure of the commanders to move inland fast and that their digging in to form a beach head was a drastic mistake. My uncle said the 88s would pierce their tank and one man in his tank had his hands shot off from the 88s. I wonder, Bill, is your account of this generally the prevailing view? I would like to read more of this (not that I am disagreeing with what you say here, just intrigued at new -- to me --information). *************************************************************** Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:38:14 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors I am not answering directly to Robert's query, but I am interested in Vargas--especially the ESQUIRE centerfolds. I have been told it is rare to find an intact vintage ESQUIRE of the WWII period (or exactly when the Vargas art appeared, I'm not sure--does anyone know) with the centerfold still in the magazine. A friend (one of those guys who pokes around estate sales, buying boxes of junk, etc.) recently bought for about 50 cents a big box of ESQUIRES WITH the Vargas centerfolds in them. He said they probably run about $75 each with the centerfold, virtually nothing without it. Robert: What does it cost to obtain either of the sets of Vargas cards you mentioned, and how can I pursue getting them? ************************************************************* Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:49:41 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Armed Services Editions Speaking of WWII art, I have next to my terminal two of the Armed Services Editions published for soldiers. They were supposed to fit in the part of a soldier's pack that carries a shovel, and measure 3 13/16ths by 5 1/2 inches (which would certainly fit). The Library of Congress Center for the Book published a nice history of these WWII artifacts, which I obtained by ordering direct (even though it was supposed to be out of print). I guess (without the book in front of me) there were over a thousand different books published (lots of classics and works popular in the 1940s), and a worthy goal for a (rich) book collector would be to obtain a copy of each. They run in prices ranging from about $5 to $10, unless they are considered especially rare or collectible. Although mint condition Armed Services Editions would be highly prized, I kind of like the old battered ones. WHO KNOWS where these books MAY have been? Is anyone interested in this topic? Does anyone have any of these hard to find relics from WWII? ************************************************************ Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:29:37 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Armed Services Editions > Is anyone interested in this topic? Does anyone have any of these > hard to find relics from WWII? > ************************************************************ > Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Hi Richard, I have one that I picked up in Italy. I think its Konrad Heiden's _Der Fuhrer_. My uncle told me that _Life_ magazine was available in a condensed version for troops in the field. It had all the articles and none of the advertising. He was a marine in the Pacific wounded at Iwo Jima. I have a nearly complete set of _Yank_ magazines but have never seen one of these issues of _Life_. Has anybody else? Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help Bob I'll call the Faraday Baseball Co. for you. They're right in my neighborhood. I'll get availability and price and let you know asap. Jim Irwin Defense Personnel Support Center Philadelphia PA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:53:05 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: WANT: Vargas Cards Bob, I checked with Faraday Baseball Co. as suggested by Col. Crane, and yes, they have the 1992 Series I Alberto Vargas cards for sale. They are in stock, $15.00/set, they will ship to you for a $2.00 shipping charge. They accept Visa, Mastercard, and Discover. Hope this is of help. Jim Irwin Defense Personnel Support Center Philadelphia PA jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:21:55 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations > Bill Huber's interesting account of the Casino operations is the > only place I've ever heard a defense/vindicatino of the Anzio > landings (of which my uncle took part in a tank). I've heard the > battle highly criticized as a failure of the commanders to > move inland fast and that their digging in to form a beach head > was a drastic mistake. My uncle said the 88s would pierce their > tank and one man in his tank had his hands shot off from the 88s. > I wonder, Bill, is your account of this generally the prevailing > view? I would like to read more of this (not that I am disagreeing > with what you say here, just intrigued at new -- to me --information). > *************************************************************** > Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Hi Richard, I did a lot of reading on the Italian campaign while I was living there. I will have to dig around and find out which sources provided what information that I knitted into yesterdays epistle on Anzio and the Italian Campaign. I know that the 36th Division is pissed at Mark Clark because I've spoken with vets of the 36th. If you ever want to start a barroom brawl the two best ways are to go to Australia and say that RAAF stands for Ragedy Ann's Air Force or go to Texas and talk about what a wonderful General Mark Clark was in Italy. I'll check on those books. One was titled _Anzio_ and I think the author was Fuller but I'm not sure. There is also _The Road to Rome_ and I can't even guess the author of that one. There are two schools of thought on Anzio. There is Churchill on one hand saying he thought he threw a wildcat on the beach at Anzio and instead got a beached whale and on the other hand the mission outlined for the 34th Division (I think -- I hate not having my references with me) to relieve the Casino battle by drawing off units from that area by landing in its rear. One author suggested that Churchill pushed the point for face saving reasons in opposition to Eisenhauer who fought Churchill all along the way on the Anzio landing because the landing craft were needed for the Overloard operation. Churchill's glory at taking Rome that May was short lived because two weeks later the papers were full of headlines about the landings in France and the Italian campaign came under the heading of "in other news" for the rest of the war. Some of the criticism of Anzio also lay in that they were slow to relieve the Casino salient but their mission was not to attack from the rear at Monte Casino but to draw German units away from that battle to engage this new threat in their rear. The force was not strong enough to open an offensive and odds are better for a weaker force in the defence which is why I believe the Anzio operation came off the way it did and why that did the most damage in Kesselring's opinion. It was a failure in that no German units were pulled from Casino BUT it did force Kesselring to commit his reserves who then could not be sent to Casino. In that sense the Anzio operation fulfilled its mission. Kesselring was put in the position to have to ask Rommel (then chief of forces in Northern Italy) to release his units to bolster subsequent defensive lines in the central mountains in front of Bologna, Florence and the Po river. In looking at this evidence I have come to the conclusion that the commander at Anzio did exactly what needed to have been done. I suspect a commander like Patton would not have been able to resist the temptation to take Rome which would have made a big splash in the headlines but could well have jeopardized the mission of the landing. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:20:32 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Help I am trying to find information about a civil war general about which not much is written. Can anyone on this list point me to a name and address of a list that concerns civil war history? I am trying to assist a professor who is writing a book and want to ask historians what they know. Since this is off the list topic (non WWII), please respond to me privately. Thanks for any help. ************************************************************ Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:01:50 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors I have a copy of a book called CLASSY CHASSIS; a collection of color illustrations of WW2 bomber-nose art. Might be interesting for your project. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:01:38 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: rod holmes Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations The generally held opinion of the Anzio operation was that the Allied commander Gen. Lucas should have moved quickly inland and possibally taken Rome. But I disagree with this for a number of reasons. The exact orders that Lucas received are open to debate. If I remember right the offical orders talked about forming a solid beachhead and then exploit inland but Lucas's unofficals order were along the line of don't get driven back into the sea. And he acted in the way he thought was best. It should also be remembered that Lucas was the expert in amphibous operations in the Med at the time. He had participated in all the landings that had occured up to this point and had helped to write the Army's manual on amphibous operations before the war. Bill Huber also mentioned that if the Allies had driven quickly inland they probably would have be destroyed piece meal which is probably true. The couter attacks that German lauched almost drove the Allies back into the sea. If the Allies hadn't been dug-in they would have in all likely hood been driven back into the sea. The landing at Anzio was supposed to help draw of German troops from the south in order to help an attack that the Allies were about to launch there. This didn't work, the German troops that did attack the beachhead came mostly from northern Italy and other fronts. That's about it. Rod Holmes | The maggots are falling like rain. rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu | --GWAR ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:05:59 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Armed Services Editions Somewhere around here, I still have three or four copies of Armed Services Editions. SEE HERE, PRIVATE HARGROVE would be my favorite. A popular comic look at life in the (US) army; sold millions of copies. Also have a couple by James M. Cain, and, as I recall, GOD'S LITTLE ACRE, by Erskine Caldwell -- considered a *very* racy book at the time. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 13:14:23 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Re: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors Reguarding WWII era mags, downtown (in Greensbroro NC USA strangly enough) there is a pretty-good usedbook store; he also has tons of mags that are let go with no real attention to collector's value (i.e. cheap). And if he does not have what you're looking for, the owner also frequents estate sales & has other inside tracks & is usually willing to look for stuff for you. I do not konw how he deals with long distance transactions though, and I've never checked specifically for the items in question. Here it is if anybody wants to risk a buck to call: The Browsery (910)-370-4648 I'd wait till 2pm Eastern Standard as he usually is a bit slow in the am. Sort of in response to: **I am not answering directly to Robert's query, but I am interested **in Vargas--especially the ESQUIRE centerfolds. I have been told **it is rare to find an intact vintage ESQUIRE of the WWII period **(or exactly when the Vargas art appeared, I'm not sure--does **anyone know) with the centerfold still in the magazine. A friend **(one of those guys who pokes around estate sales, buying boxes **of junk, etc.) recently bought for about 50 cents a big box **of ESQUIRES WITH the Vargas centerfolds in them. He said they **probably run about $75 each with the centerfold, virtually nothing **without it. ** Robert: What does it cost to obtain either of the sets of **Vargas cards you mentioned, and how can I pursue getting them? *************************************************************** **Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. **RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:48:29 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura Yes, s/b Model 18 Lodestar. The three British squadrons were the 21st, 464th (RAAF), and 487th (RNZAF) and were part of the 2nd Group. From November, 1942 to Sept 1943 they took part in daylight raids and "circus" operations (offensive operations aimed at getting German fighters into the air so they could be attacked by RAF fighters). Probably the most famous Ventura raid s were on the Philips radio and valve factory at Eindhoven 12/06/42 and a raid on Amsterdam, in support of city workers on strike, on 5/03/43. The Amsterdam rraid was a debacle because the German governorof Holland was paying a state visit to Haarlem, right on the Ventura's flight path, and he was well protected with extra flack batteries and fighters. To make matters worse, the RAF fighter diversion force arrived 20 minutes early, was then re-called but not before Germand air defenses were warned. The 11 Ventura's of the 487th and their escort of 6 Spitfires were jumped by over 70 FW-190's and Me-109's! Ten of the 11 bombers were lost. As a bomber, the British found the Ventura to be ok, except it was " too slow, too heavy, unmaneuverable, and lacking in defensive armament"! They switched over to Mosquitoes ASAP. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 13:01:33 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Cheryl Bryant Subject: B-17 Pilots I hope that there is someone who can help me on this channel. My Grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 9th Air Corp during the second World War. Recently I saw a student who was reading a book about B-17 pilots and I have been looking for it ever since. The name of the book was something like "The Lucky Bastard's Club." Have any of you ever heard of this book? If so, who is the author and do you happen to know the publisher? Thanks in advance. C.K. Bryant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:42:41 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: Archie Smith From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT from Didn't he write "DESTROYERNETICS"? this is a joke, incase you hadn;t figured that out yet. ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- L Ron Hubbard as commander of a USN warship is a frightening thought! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations I'll probably regret doing this, especially with references at home but as Major Blesse said: "No guts, no glory." Bill Huber writes: > ... the mission outlined > for the 34th Division (I think -- I hate not having my references with > me) to relieve the Casino battle by drawing off units from that area > by landing in its rear. The problem was that the beachhead was so shallow that there were absolutely no spots that were safe from artillery. One might argue that a Dieppe style raid would be successful if it managed to divert German resources but the troops who were chosen for such an assignment can be understandably upset. While one can argue over the feasibility of taking Rome, one must still wonder why the beachhead wasn't expanded before the arrival of German units. I still have to classify the leadership of the operation as timid. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com No guts, no glory. If you're going to shoot him down, you have to get in there and mix it up with him. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 21:28:28 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: To Archie Smith about Hubbard In-Reply-To: <9402172051.AA21398@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR" at Feb 17, 94 11:21 am Hey Archie Smith Could you explain you strange to me comment about Hubbard? I did not understand the reason behind that remark. L Ron Hubbards Father was also in the USN (Naval MAn all his adult years, commander I think). Please write me privately and explain. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:50:07 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations Rome fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944 (not "May"), 36 hours before D-Day. 'Took much of the spotlight away from freeing the Eternal City. Gen Mark Clark was *very* annoyed by this, which he saw as lost glory. The man is said to have travelled with more photographers NCOs.He had his photo taken (left profile)standing beside a large highway sign bearing the magic name, "ROMA". This, the sign, Clark had uprooted and sent to his home in the States). Cassino was one of the very great battles of WW2, actually *four* battles over a six-month period. Horrendous casulaties: 105,000 Allied, 80,000 German. Cassino was the fulcrum of the German's Gustav Line, perfectly sited to act as a classic "killing ground". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:51:33 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations Aaaah -- "If". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:11:45 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations A fighting patrol (couple of jeeps) of the Canadian/US Special Service Force is said to have actually reached streets on the outskirts of Rome. Their recon report that the way was open was apparenly ignored by the commander at Anzio. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 19:08:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: Ian Kershaw obit? Can anyone confirm or deny the recent passing of Ian Kershaw? For those not familiar with his work, he authored "Hitler" in the Profiles In Power series. TIA, Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:02:36 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations One of the most impartial definitive studies is: CASSINO: THE HOLLOW VICTORY by John Ellis (pub. Andre Deutch). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 19:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joel Furr Subject: Moderators wanted for soc.history.war.world-war-ii As you all on this list are probably aware, a move is afoot to create a moderated newsgroup called soc.history.war.world-war-ii. It'll be moderated to keep out the insane "holocaust never happened" revisionists and others, and this means we need moderators. We're talking about group moderation, where a post is randomly sent to one of several moderators for posting. Anyone want to volunteer? I'm looking for people who've been On The Net for at least two years, and who've got very reliable net access, and don't mind taking on a very, very thankless job. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:39:10 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura Jim Benn writes - >My boss flew in the Pacific during WWII; he told me he flew anti-shipping >strikes in Lockheed Venturas. Just for interest, there's one flying around Australia. I think it is owned and operated by the RAAF Museum. It turns up at the local air shows, and looks great! +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:52:41 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders Thanks to all those who gave me help on sources or contacts. I'll pass them on to my friend doing the research. Much appreciated, Wilber. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 22:23:40 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bruce Sheehan Subject: Re: Addr: Help Richard, Try H-CIVWAR@UICVM it is a civial war history listserv, good luck. Bruce On Thu, 17 Feb 1994, RICHARD KING wrote: > I am trying to find information about a civil war general about > which not much is written. Can anyone on this list point me to > a name and address of a list that concerns civil war history? > I am trying to assist a professor who is writing a book and > want to ask historians what they know. Since this is off the > list topic (non WWII), please respond to me privately. Thanks > for any help. > ************************************************************ > Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:43:19 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stan Koper Organization: None at the moment Subject: Re: Cassino Operations In-Reply-To: <199402161749.JAA11089@mail.netcom.com> > > The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one > > of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey > > of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the > > Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance > > on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made > > a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they > > moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive > > position. > > > > Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision > > for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm > > eulogizing the loss. > > > > -- > > Steve Alvin > > salvin@heartland.bradley.edu > > Hi Steve, > > Don't feel to bad. It looks as good as new now. I was there in 1992 > and I can see why it had to go. Cassino is one of the most > misunderstood battles of modern times. While true that the Germans > had no guns at the abbey they certainly had observers for the guns > that were dug into the surrounding hills. The observers did not even > have to be in the abbey itself to call down fire on any part of the > valley below, in fact, the entire mountain it sits on dominates the > valley below on 3 sides. It was no accident that this site was picked > as the cornerstone for the Gustav line. It has been discussed as > *the* example of an ideal defensive position in German military texts > for over 100 years. > Bill-- I hope when you say, "[w]hile true that the Germans had no guns at the abbey tehy certainly had observers for the guns..." you don't mean that they had observers in the abbey. The information I have is quite to the contrary, and clearly indicates that destruction of the Monastery was not only senseless, but in fact counter productive. Here is B.H. Liddell Hart on the subject, from his _History of the Second World War_: "...there was no evidence that German troops were using the monastery--and ample proof subsequently that they abstained from entering it..." However, once it had been destroyed by allied bombardment, "The German troops then felt justified in moving into the rubble, which enabled them to establish a still firmer defence." Similarly, Martin Blumenson in _Bloody River_, referring to preparations to force a crossing of the Rapido at Monte Cassino states: "Above them, on the height of Monte Cassino, apparently staring at the troops, was the imposing structure of the Benedictine abbey, occupied, the men were certain, by German observers who had telephone lines to artillery battalions ready to pour down death and destruction on those who attempted to break into the Gustav defenses. The troops were wrong about the Germans being in the abbey; German artillery observers had no need to use the abbey, for they could see just as well from the hill itself and from other pieces of high ground nearby" (p.85). > Add to all this the fact that the dams on the Volturno and Rapido > Rivers were destroyed and the flood plane of those rivers turned into > a morass of sticky mud and the *really* pissy weather they have there > this time of year - drizzly rain with subfreezing temps in the hills > and gusty winds and you get a hell of a nasty place to try to attack. > > Also, while the abbey was not fortified the town of Cassino certainly > was. Buildings were turned into pillboxes with tanks and concrete > reinforced bunkers being positioned *inside* buildings completely > masking them from the outside. These were the real problems. A brief scan of both books above indicates that the crossing was forced further east first. I believe Blumenson quotes extensively from General Frank Walker, who blamed Mark Clark for ordering what was essentially a series of frontal assaults on well-fortified positions. > [excellent description of battle conditions deleted] > To relieve the months long stalemate of Cassino, Churchill pushed for > and got the Anzio landings which were hoped to pull defenders from > the Cassino area and save that action from total collapse. The > landing caught the Germans completely cold and the commanding general > of the landing force dug in and built a strong bridgehead. The road I don't have any immediate sources to draw on, but I'm sure at least several would take exception to calling Anzio a "strong bridgehead". "Holding on by its fingernails" would probably be more apt. > to Rome was completely open and he could have occupied it that day > and he had been criticized by some historians for not doing this but > his orders were to relieve Cassino by drawing off German units, not > take Rome. If he had stretched his units out to do that Kesselring > would have diced them up very quickly. In fact, Kesselring later Perhaps the question was not so much whether there should have been an allied breakout from Anzio toward Rome, but rather whether, by advancing a little farther, the allies might have obtained better defensive positions, and had less of the beach itself exposed to German fire. > Adolf Hitler Line and the rest. The Germans wanted to set up a line > that would cause the allies to have to amass for an attack and then > the Germans would fall back to the next prepared line costing the > allies months in preparation for offensives that (while successful) > bought the Germans valuable time with acceptable losses. And it seems to have worked, for the most part. > > > Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. What was the question?? :-) > Oh yea, the abbey and its treasures. It has been completely rebuilt > and the manuscripts and artifacts had been evacuated before the > allied bombing which, by the way, the allied first "bombed" with > leaflets saying they would be bombing the abbey and to move anything > they didn't want to loose which the Germans took as a propaganda > opportunity to "rescue" the abbeys treasures. > [more painful deletions in the interest of brevity] Stan Koper skoper@netcom.com This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:27:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Admiral Doenitz 18 February 1994 This is my first post to the list and I hope it is received as I am brand new to Internet. I have a bet with a friend, please help me settle it. As we all know, Hitler, in a final act of revenge against the Army, took Borman's advice and named Doenitz as his successor and even had the audacity to hand-pick his cabinet before finally stop the delay tactics and taking his poison (as a brief aside, I think he was too much of a coward to have shot himself first). Didn't the Allies allow Admiral Doenitz to in effect conduct "business as usual" for like a month or so before arresting him and the rest of his "government"? I am almost certain of it. I don't know why the Allies didn't arrest all of them on the spot, but as I recall reading somewhere, Cabinet meetings were even held. Where did Doenitz set up his government? I cannot recall. I know the surrender took place at Reims but it would seem to me that since he had previously commanded the U-Boat Division of the Navy, he probably would have gone to Kiel. Can anyone else shed some light on this for me? Kind and Warm Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:57:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 18-21 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES FRIDAY, 18 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning Hurricane, Hawker (RAF) P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine (RAF) CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 40+ B-25s, A-36s and P-51s attack the town of Ye-u and nearby bridge, bivouacs N of Laban, bridges in the Pyingaing area and along the Mu River, supply and troop concentrations at Waingmaw radio station and a supply area near Kamaing and gun emplacements SE of Taihpa Ga; the strikes are generally successful. 58th Fighter Squadron, 33d Fighter Group, arrives at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s on a sweep of the Gulf of Tonkin damage 2 large boats N of Bakli Bay on Hainan Island, destroy an ammunition dump at Phu Ly and knock out a nearby railroad bridge. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ Eighth Air Force issues orders to establish a photographic reconnaissance wing [8th Reconnaissance Wing (Provisional)] in Cheddington. The purpose is to make the Eighth independent in aerial reconnaissance and to consolidate the efforts of units presently engaged in this and related activities. Colonel Elliott Roosevelt, the President's son and currently Director of Reconnaissance for the Ninth Air Force, is named Commanding Officer. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group arrives at Barkston, England from Sicily. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are restricted to photographic and weather reconnaissance. 764th, 765th, 766th and 767th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 461st Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at Venosa, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Apr. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s hit a troop concentration near Piedimonte; XII Air Support Command P-40s and A-36s fly 17 missions in support of US Fifth Army troops resisting the German counteroffensive which reaches its deepest penetration into the Anzio beachhead on this day; objectives include tanks, vehicles, gun positions, troop concentrations, and a railroad underpass along the Anzio-Albano Laziale axis; fighters over Anzio successfully intercept air strikes on the beachhead; New Zealand troops capture Cassino Station. HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and 445th, 446th, 447th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from Vincenzo Airfield to Gaudo Airfield, Italy with B-25s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe Jaluit and Mille Atolls. US forces land on Engebi Island in Eniwetok Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 34 B-25s and 18 B-24s, both forces with fighter escorts, pound Vunakanau Airfield; 2 B-25s and 4 P-38s hit Tobera. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Beaufighters hit Koepang, Timor Island. P-39s strafe targets of opportunity at Madang, New Guinea and Cape Raoult, New Britain Island. 499th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s. SATURDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 60+ A-36s and P-51s and a few B-25s hit a variety of targets in Burma; targets include fuel and supply dumps at Manywet and in the Shaduzup area, the Tonkin-Kansi road and a junction W of Manywet, the Mu River bridge at Ye-u, railroad cars and tracks, locomotives, and river traffic between Monywa and Natyekan and between Alon and Segyi; rail and road traffic in the Bhamo and Hukawng Valley-Kamaing areas is also hit. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-24s, B-25s, and P-40s fly sea sweeps over wide-spread coastal areas from the Formosa Straits to French Indochina, claiming 3 ships sunk and others damaged; railroad bridges, trains, and other targets of opportunity near coastal areas are also attacked. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are again limited to reconnaissance flights. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Colonel Peter S Rask becomes acting Commanding Officer of the XII Troop Carrier Command (Provisional) until its disbandment on 5 Mar 44. In Italy, B-25s blast troop concentrations to the N of Anzio beachhead; A-36s and P-40s keep troops, tanks, and motor transport in the beachhead battle area under attack, flying 200+ sorties in 20+ missions as an Allied counterattack turns the tide of battle; fighters maintain control over the N part of the battle area. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island pound Ponape and Kusaie Islands; B-25s from Tarawa hit Wotje Atoll while Makin-based P-40s bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. US forces land on Eniwetok Island in Eniwetok Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 20 P-40s and 40+ US Navy (USN) fighters escort about 70 USN dive bombers in an attack on Lakunai Airfield; fighter cover claims 22 Japanese aircraft shot down; 6 B-24s bomb the same target immediately afterward; 14 B-24s, with P-38 and USN fighter escort, hit Tobera Airfield. 12th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, based on Guadalcanal Island with P-38s, begins operating from Treasury Island. 69th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from the Russell Islands to Stirling Island with B-25s. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 12 B-25s attack shipping SW of New Ireland Island, claiming a small freighter and a patrol boat sunk and other vessels damaged. 7 A-20s hit shipping at Kavieng, New Ireland Island. Single B-24s and B-25s carry out armed reconnaissance over wide areas of the Bismarck Sea. Movements in New Guinea: 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Dobodura to Finschhafen with F-5s (a detachment is at Port Moresby); 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, from Finschhafen to Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island with P-40s. SUNDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations to a routine patrol over Sumprabum, Burma. HQ 33d Fighter Group and 60th Fighter Squadron arrive at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 226: The Eighth Air Force begins "Big Week," attacks on German aircraft plants and airfields. For the first time, over 1,000 bombers are dispatched; 21 bombers and 4 fighters are lost hitting 3 areas in Germany, i.e.: 1. 417 B-17s are dispatched to Leipzig/Mockau Airfield, and aviation industry targets at Heiterblick and Abnaundorf; 239 hit the primary targets, 37 hit Bernburg, 44 hit Oschersleben and 20 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 14-5-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 161 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 17 WIA and 72 MIA. 2. 314 B-17s are dispatched to the Tutow Airfield; 105 hit the primary and immediate area, 76 hit Rostock and 115 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 15-15-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA and 60 MIA. 3. 272 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Brunswick, Wilhelmtor and Neupetritor; 76 hit the primary, 87 hit Gotha, 13 hit Oschersleben, 58 hit Helmstedt and 10 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 36-13-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA, 10 WIA and 77 MIA. Missions 1 and 3 above are escorted by 94 P-38s, 668 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 73 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 61-7-37 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 is lost, 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 4 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 4 MIA. Mission 227: 4 of 5 B-17s drop 200 bundles of leaflets on Tours, Nantes, Brest and Lorient, France at 2123-2200 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 35 B-26s bomb Haamstede Airfield, The Netherlands, as a target of opportunity, after about 100 B-26s abort attacks on other airfields because of weather. HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group and 32d Troop Carrier Squadron arrive at Saltby, England from Sicily with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24s blast troop concentrations in the Anzio, Italy beachhead area as the Axis efforts end. HQ 461st Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives at Torretto Airfield, Italy from the US. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s hit troop concentrations along roads in the Vallalta area; B-25s hit dumps and assembly areas at the N edge of the Anzio beachhead, and A-20s bomb a troop and motor transport concentration SE of Carroceto; A-36s and P-40s hit troops, trucks and tanks NE of Carroceto, bomb the town of Fondi, a factory E of Carroceto, the town of Piedimonte, and hit guns and targets of opportunity along the N line of the beachhead; an Axis attempt to achieve a breakthrough is decisively defeated in the center of the salient created by a counteroffensive and their efforts end. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25s from Tarawa Atoll bomb the airfield at Wotje Atoll; P-40s from Makin Island strafe and bomb runways and small vessels at Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 35 B-25s, with fighter escort, pound Lakunai Airfield on New Britain Island. P-39s attack barge traffic, which has greatly increased off SE and NW Bougainville Island, claiming 20 of the craft sunk. 18th Combat Mapping Squadron, 4th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), is inactivated on Espiritu Santo Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 38 B-24s bomb the Alexishafen-Hansa Bay area. 18 B-24s bomb the airfield at Laha, Ambon Island and 12 others hit shipping off Kavieng, New Ireland Island. Transfers in and out of New Guinea: HQ Fifth Air Force advance echelon and HQ V Bomber Command from Port Moresby to Nadzab; HQ 8th Fighter Group from Finschhafen to Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island; 498th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Dobodura to Nadzab with B-25s. MONDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 50+ P-51s and A-36s and a few B-25s hit a command post at Shingban, the town of Mohnyin, a bridge at Loilaw, a camp at Shaduzup, 2 bridges at Namkwin, and warehouses and other buildings at Kawlin and Wuntho; fighter-bombers attacking a fuel dump at Pin Hmi drop bombs in the wrong area; B-25s, escorted by Royal Air Force (RAF) Spitfires and Hurricanes, score effective hits on a tunnel on the Maungdaw- Buthidaung road. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 228: "Big Week" continues with 3 areas in Germany targetted with the loss of 16 bombers and 5 fighters: 1. 336 B-17s are dispatched to the Gutersioh, Lippstadt and Werl Airfields; because of thick overcast, 285 hit Achmer, Hopsten, Rheine, Diepholz, Quakenbruck and Bramsche Airfields and the marshalling yards at Coevorden and Lingen; they claim 12-5-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 13 WIA and 75 MIA. 2. 281 B-17s are dispatched to Diepholz Airfield and Brunswick; 175 hit the primaries and 88 hit Alhorn and Verden Airfields and Hannover; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 36 damaged; casualties are 20 KIA, 4 WIA and 57 MIA. 3. 244 B-24s are dispatched to Achmer and Handorf Airfields; 11 hit Achmer Airfield and 203 hit Diepholz, Verden and Hesepe Airfields and Lingen; they claim 5-6-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 6 damaged; casualties are 3 WIA and 31 MIA. Escort for Mission 228 is provided by 69 P-38s, 542 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 68 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-47s claim 19-3-14 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-47s are lost, 2 are damaged beyond repair, 3 are damaged and 2 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 14-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and the pilots are MIA. Mission 229: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Rouen, Caen, Paris and Amiens, France at 2215-2327 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 18 B-26s bomb Coxyde Airfield, Belgium; weather causes almost 190 aborts. The Ninth Air Force's Pathfinder Squadron (provisionally activated on 13 Feb) takes part in this operation, its first venture into combat. 185 aircraft scheduled to attack other airfields in the Netherlands and France in the afternoon are recalled because of bad weather. Arrivals in England from the US: HQ 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) at Chalgrove; HQ 439th Troop Carrier Group and 91st and 92d Troop Carrier Squadrons at Balderton with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Orte marshalling yard, and B-26s hit Imperia docks; A-20s pound troop concentrations near Campoleone, along with P-40s and A-36s which also hit a fuel dump, tank and truck concentrations, and gun positions in the area; fighter-bombers also bomb and block the Itri-Gaeta road. 100th Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, moves from Montecorvino to Capodichino, Italy with P-39s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Ponape and Kusaie Islands and Jaluit Atoll. B-25s from Abemama bomb Maloelap Atoll. P-40s from Makin Island hit Mille Atoll. US forces gain complete control of Eniwetok Island in Eniwetok Atoll. 9th Troop Carrier Squadron, Seventh Air Force, arrives at Hickam Field, Territory of Hawaii from the US with C-47s. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 15 B-24s bomb Lakunai Airfield; 4 others, with fighter support, attack the airfield at Rapopo; 20 P-38s join USN fighters in covering a USN dive bomber strikes on Lakunai gun positions. In the Bougainville Island area 3 B-24s bomb Kara airfield while P-39s hit buildings at Tsundawan and in the area S of Tabut, and bomb barges and jetty in the Matchin Bay area. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, almost 30 A-20s hit Madang and the Hansa Bay area. On New Britain Island, P-39s hit Raiven Plantation; 40+ B-24s bomb the Rein Bay and Eleonora Bay areas; others attack shipping off New Hanover Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 14:06:58 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL> Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Referring to Chuck's posting on the German "government" after the surrender, as I recall Albert Speer's book "Inside the Third Reich" describes the activities by Doenitz and the "government". Several of the leaders of the third Reich went into hiding, but the Allies let Doenitz and crew carry on for a while -- doing little more than shuffling papers -- until they finally figured out what to do with everybody. It has been years since I read the book, so I'm a little fuzzy on the facts, but I do seem to recall that it was, in fact, at Kiel or somewhere nearby. It seems to me (my opinion only) that with the bulk of the Allies effort directed toward winning the war, that when the end finally came, the leadership, like the proverbial dog who finally catches the car, took some time to shift gears and figure out just what to do next. In all fairness, there were unbelievably complex problems with refugees, repatriations, etc. What to do with a few former leaders of the Reich (who, as I recall were under a sort of "house arrest" while carrying out their day to day business) was not a problem that begged for immediate resolution. Doug Donnell Ruppertsweiler, Germany ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 08:25:32 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ingalls Steven CPT Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Chuck, Although I don't have the answer with me, it lies in Doenitz' memoirs (Ten Years and Twenty Days? - even the title escapes me now). CPT Stephen Ingalls USMA West Point FLY ARMY! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 09:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Moderators wanted for soc.history.war.world-war-ii In-Reply-To: from "Joel Furr" at Feb 17, 94 07:27:48 pm Joel Furr writes: |-> |-> As you all on this list are probably aware, a move is afoot to create a |-> moderated newsgroup called soc.history.war.world-war-ii. It'll be |-> moderated to keep out the insane "holocaust never happened" revisionists |-> and others, and this means we need moderators. We're talking about group |-> moderation, where a post is randomly sent to one of several moderators |-> for posting. |-> |-> Anyone want to volunteer? |-> |-> I'm looking for people who've been On The Net for at least two years, and |-> who've got very reliable net access, and don't mind taking on a very, |-> very thankless job. How about providing an email address so we don't have to flood the group with replies and requests for more info?? --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? I don't think Hubbard wrote "DESTROYERNETICS," but I'm fairly certain he later founded the religion known as "DEPTHCHARGEOLOGY." Hey, it could happen. Justin Gustainis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:59:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Doenitz set up his government at Flensburg-- which I believe is on the Baltic coast up close to Denmark. Don Bowden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:14:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: Moderators for soc.history.etc (address) Those wishing more information regarding moderation of the proposed Internet list, soc.history.war.world-war-ii, should contact: jkfurr@snarf.eecs.umich.edu (Joel Furr) His .sig evidently got cut off by the mail software. Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:11:25 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Smith Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:32:22 -0500 from I have not heard of Depthchargeology but knowing the lack of stability of Destroyers in heavy seas, maybe Regurgicology. Possible? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 21:06:24 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Ausland Subject: ENGLAND: GETTING SETTLED Oslo, Norway. February 18, 1994 I have previously posted an article which described my voyage from New York to England in January, 1944. The following book excerpt continues the story. ENGLAND: GETTING SETTLED AN EXCERPT FROM CHAPTER 3 OF JOHN C. AUSLAND'S LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR After a couple of years training in the US, the 4th Division moved to England in January, 1944. This was a part of Operation Bolero, the buildup of allied forces for the invasion of the continent. Lt. Col. Joel F. (Tommy) Thomason chose me to represent the battalion on the advance party, along with a sergeant. Tommy says he chose me because I was the best man for the job, but I suspect it was partly because I was single and the married officers wanted to delay as long as possible. Although I wrote copious letters home during the war, there are none about our crossing on the Queen Elizabeth. Probably we were under orders not to write about this, for security reasons. Nevertheless, my memories of the voyage are vivid. Who could forget a crossing of the Atlantic in mid-winter with 17,999 others? Fortunately, I do not get seasick, but there were not many who were so lucky. The enlisted men suffered most. They were supposed to alternate between sleeping below and being on deck. The difficulty was that few could stand their dark and smelly quarters. There were two companies of nurses on board, and the roughness of the sea did not prevent romance from blooming in the officers lounge. Everyone was happy when the Queen entered a quiet bay near Greenock, in Scotland. From there we traveled by train to Devon, in southwestern England, where we spent several weeks in Collipriest, a large home near the village of Tiverton. My task was to make arrangements for the 29th Field Artillery Battalion to move into the village of Axminster, not far from Exeter. Since no troops had previously been quartered there, this was a nice challenge. In retrospect, I can only marvel at my self-confidence. (Some would call it brashness.) At that time I was twenty-three and dealing with men at least twice my age. In retrospect, I am grateful for the tact with which they dealt with this demanding Yank. Before going on, a little family background may be in order. As mentioned in Chapter 1, my father went into the Army in the summer of 1941. However, he became ill in 1944 during his second tour in China. My letters indicate that I was not aware how serious this illness was, and I am now ashamed of the flippant tone I took when writing to him. My brother, Bud, joined the US Marines before Pearl Harbor and spent most of the war in the South Pacific. Although he saw a lot of combat, he escaped being wounded. My sister, Sis, married Carlton Tilton, who became a First Lieutenant in the Air Force. To his regret, he spent the war as an instructor in the US. Ironically, during a tour of duty in Germany after the war he became ill with rheumatic fever, which plagued his health thereafter. With the family scattered to the four winds, my mother returned to her family home in Philadelphia. There she was kept busy reading my flood of letters and meeting my constant demands for packages. For several months after arriving in England, I also kept a diary. Since this was rather voluminous, what you will see in this chapter and the next are only excerpts. Diary, January 11, 1944 During a visit to Tiverton, I went into a bakery. When I asked the woman storekeeper whether I needed a ration stamp to buy something, she replied, "No, of course not." "How do you sell them," I asked, "by the pound, piece, or dozen?" "Any way you like. You can buy the whole store if you wish, except the staff, of course." Then she and several ladies looking on enjoyed a good laugh. (During a visit to a pub that night, I met Margo Southy, an English girl who drives for an American motor pool.) When the place closed up, I suggested that I be allowed to walk home with her. She kept trying to discourage me, saying it was quite a distance. It was. We walked every foot of the way, three miles. Dear Mother, January 13, 1944, APO 9366 c/o Postmaster, New York Despite the fact that this is my first letter to you from overseas, there is not much to say. We are quartered just now in a rather large home, just outside of a village. Most of us have been into town several times already. We've been here only since Sunday, so naturally we are just getting settled down. Oh, I've already had time to meet a rather attractive young lady, but then that always receives a high priority. Give my love to all. John Without the cooperation of a number of people, it would never have been possible to prepare Axminster for the arrival of the battalion. Fortunately, there were a number of empty buildings, which could be used as officers quarters and as barracks for the enlisted men. The George Hotel, in the middle of the town, served as headquarters. Although it was no doubt painful for the locals, I chose the Guildhall to serve as the enlisted men's mess. The trick was to provide it with the necessary stoves and other kitchen equipment. The only real problem arose when it came to finding a drill field. I found what seemed to me the ideal place, a large even meadow with thick green grass. When I went to see Mr. Kirby, the Town Clerk, he hesitated and then took me to the football field. While not as good as the one I had found, it was adequate. I only later learned that the one I had chosen was the cricket field. There are limits to an Englishman's patriotism. A more embarrassing incident occurred when a British officer admired my automatic. While showing it to him, I inadvertently fired it into his book case. His secretary rushed into the room, screaming "The Yank has shot the major." END ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 17:04:35 -0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GENCI Subject: The Southeast Asian campaign. Hey, there. I'm new here so forgive me if I sound like a fool. My name is Genci, and I like WWII, as a matter of fact I prefer it to the Great War for several reasons...1)Hitler, because hey, he was no Bismarck. 2)Espionage, 'nuf said. 3)The brilliance of the Japanese campaign in the Pacific. 4)No other war was so well documented in it's historical context by each side. 5)My eighth grade history teacher, Mr Irving Gluckman. Well, that's why I like discussing WWII. I've gotta go, so once more, I look forward to interesting discussions and will be back regularly eith some little tid bit you all may find vaguely interesting. So long.... Genci ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 20:53:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Richard Kaplan Subject: WEAP: B-17 Chin Turrets Basic question here; I just joined the Military Book Club, and as one of my selections, I chose The Mighty Eighth in Color. Its been very enjoyable, and I never realized the extent of color usage beyond olive and polished aluminium. One of the interesting excerpts I ran across involved a bomb group with B-17Gs, who removed their planes' chin turrets...why? I always assumed that the G was a marked improvement over the earlier model Forts because of the forward twin 50s. Richard Kaplan Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 22:43:48 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ENEWS (fwd) > Sender: Project Gutenberg Email List > <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:GUTNBERG@UIUCVMD> > From: "Michael S. Hart" > Subject: ENEWS > To: Multiple recipients of list GUTNBERG > <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:GUTNBERG@UIUCVMD> John asked me for this info a while back and I thought other people might find it useful as well. > ELECTRONIC NEWSSTAND. To use the Internet as a way to take a look at Educom > Review, The New Yorker, The New Republic, and many other national > magazines, connect through gopher internet.com or telnet internet.com and > login as "enews." Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 23:27:30 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Chuck, I'm afraid you're a bit off with your chronology. The Allies did not "allow Adm. Doenitz to carry on business as usual for about a month", as you said. Hitler shot himself at 3:30 p.m., April 30, 1945. The German armed forces, under command of Reichsfuhrer Adm. Doenitz, continued to fight for eight more days. The Allies didn't "allow" Doenitz and co. to do anything. The Germans continued to fight, and kill, for just over a week, futile as it seems now. Various surrender documents were finally signed by a number of German commanders, including Add. Doenitz. When Doenitz's surrender delegation arrived at Field Marshal Montgomery's HQ, Monty said, "Who are thesemen? What do they want?" When he found out that Doenitz proposed to surrended three german armies facing the Russians, Montgomery refused, and sent them packing back to Doenitz. The new 8-day Fuhrer acquiesed to Monty's demands, that he do any surrendering to Russians *to* the Russians -- what Montgomery insisted on surrender of only those armies facing the British; all German forces in Holland, northwest Germany and Denmark. The Germans came back to Monthy, and at half-past five p.m., May 4, 1945, signed the German surrender in the northwest. Then, at 6:00 p.m. May 6, 1945, Field Marshal Jodl under orders from Doenitz, flew from Flensburg to Reims, France, to surrender to Supreme Allied Commander, Gen Eisenhower, capitulating all German forces still fighting or facing the western Allies. May 8, 1945 -- Victory in Europe. Doenitz and the Third Reich was kaput. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 08:20:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "C. J. Weckesser" <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Hanging Keitel and Jodl This post might stir up a great deal of debate. I'll keep it short. That Goring deserved to be *hanged* goes without even saying or bothering to debate. Keitel was more independent minded than Jodl; both, however, were Army lackey's who rarely left Hitler's presence. Keitel in particular, especially after Kursk, worked on Hitler and tried to get him to see the logic of negotiating an end to the War. Should they have been hanged? Remember, it was Jodl who signed the Instrument of Surrender at Reims. Both were Junker's. Neither had SS connections that I am aware of. I am now simply not aware of any war crimes these two men committed other than having knowledge. What was the official charge in which they executed - I don't even know? Finally, if you say, "yes" they should have been executed, I am of the opinion that officers deserve to be shot by a firing squand than hanged like a petty criminal. Any comments on this thought? We all know what a coward Goring was in taking a cyanide capsule and killing himself. Which brings up another question: wasn't it a bit gross hanging Goring's body anyway? I know the Russians would done that, but we (the Americans) carried out the executions. Comments would be appreciated. Regards, Chuck 17 February 1994 - The Sunshine State ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 09:34:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: GAME: Russian Front II at byrd. In-Reply-To: <9402191323.AA05813@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "C. J. Weckesser" at Feb 19, 94 8:20 am I don't normally do this but this is the rare exception. In the submissions directory at byrd is a zip file called rusfront.zip. This is an IBM-based game based on the Avalon Hill board games. There are three scenarios and anyone who's played the A-H games will pick up quickly on this one. You'll need EGA and 80286 at a minimum (it's sloooow on a 286). You can choose sides, play the computer, play another person, or have the computer play itself. I'll decide later whether or not to add it as a permanent part of the collection at byrd. Until then it will be at: byrd.mu.wvnet.edu /pub/history/submissions Send me e-mail for ftp help file. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 18:58:19 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402191325.AA15161@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "C. J. Weckesser" at Feb 19, 94 8:20 am I dont know. I feel that the allied went a bit far when "punishing" the Reich personnel after the war. Kptlt Heinz Eck was executed along with his machine gunner after killing survivors of a sunken ship while no such charges were brought up against the allied soldiers who committed similar acts. How long did Doenitz serve in prison (Spandau?) after the surrender? Can anyone point me to a really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials and if any trials were done before that one, like right after the war? Thank you. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 17:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <199402191853.AA05895@tiesnet.ties.k12.mn.us> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:> > Can anyone point me to any really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials I just finished just reading JUSTICE AT NURNBERG -- very complete and many neat details about the mechanics of the whole proceeding. Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 19:41:35 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 10:33:55 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz In-Reply-To: <9402190722.AA49158@nwg.nectec.or.th> Actually, Doenitz's government "functioned" in Flensburg for a couple of days after they surrendered before they were rounded up by Allied MPs. The charge against Keitel and Jodl was "waging agressive war". Telford Taylor and others have good books about the trials. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 10:38:26 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402191323.AA19290@nwg.nectec.or.th> The charge against them was "waging agressive war". Goering's body was not hung, but merely displayed on a stretcher after the others were hung. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 23:15:56 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SAT 19 FEB 1994 13:58:19 EST > The Telford Taylor book comes highly recommended to me, but I have not yet had a chance to read it; it languishes on the pile with a few others that I am waiting to get to! Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor Marist College, Poughkeepsie New York USA jzml@maristb.marist.edu > Can anyone point me to a really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials > and if any trials were done before that one, like right after the war? > > Thank you. > > > > Gudmundur J. Helgason > > E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 18:12:04 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402200340.AA17175@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the > hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States > Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. > This last is news to me. Please let us know your source. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 12:37:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Colonel-General Guderian 20 February 1994 Before I begin this missive, I would like to state that I received two or three private e-mail messages which all but stated that I must be a neo-fascist of some sort because of an earlier post regarding Field Marshall Keitel and Jodl. Please note that my *real* objection was that they were hanged rather than shot. I don't know why, but officers should be shot by firing squad and not hanged. Others may take a different viewpoint. At any rate, victor's justice always prevails because the principles of Nuremberg have been flouted since World War II, both in America and abroad yet the word community does nothing. With respect to Colonel-General Guderian, I recently read an account, where, immediately before his dismissal as Commander of Army Group Vistula *he* actually *lectured* Hitler and told him he was the fool, and not the General Staff, for Germany's precarious plight in April 1945. Hitler foolishly insisted that final assualt would come in Prague and that Berlin was a Russian diversionary tactic. Guderian all but begged him to remove 17 Panzer Divisions in Prague to Berlin immediately as well as the 20 Divisions in Latvia. Hitler refused both requests and suggested to the General that he "take to the bath's" as he was overworked. It must be remembered that Hitler was, without question a complete *COCAINE ADDICT* by April (thanks to "Doctor" Morell) and unable to think rationally. The indignity of men of such brilliance as Guderian taking tactical orders from the little Corporal must have been extremely demeaning. What I would have given to be a fly on the wall during their last conference. Of course, at that time, the SS was settling accounts. Admiral Canaris and many other fine, decent and brave German resisters were executed. In fact, Patton arrived at Buchenwald just two days after Dietrich Boehnoffer was executed. Can anyone answer this question for me: the conference that I have just described took place. The little pet spider, Bormann and Himmler were both present (the latter being only to anxious to turn over his military command so the ensuing disaster would not be blamed on him). Guderian's adjutant, General Krebs, was also present and later wrote that he was certain that since Guderian told Hitler that everything was his fault to begin with for wagin a two front war, he would be shot immediately. Yet he was spared. Does anyone care to speculate as to why Hitler (and especially the toad Bormann and Himmler) allowed Guderian to live? Regards, Chuck Weckesser ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 13:48:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <199402201705.AA17391@tiesnet.ties.k12.mn.us> On Sun, 20 Feb 1994, Peter E. Beal wrote: > On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > > > It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the > > hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States > > Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. > > > This last is news to me. Please let us know your source. I've read a bunch of explanation for this, but have never cared to find the truth -- if it will ever be known. These are a couple that come to mind: 1. Hide pill inside a false tooth. 2. Hide pill in bellybutton (but I've also read that is where some was found when he was captured). 3. Slipped to him during proceedings. Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 19:58:39 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Irving's Hitlers's War 1942-1945 In-Reply-To: <9402200506.AA13576@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Peter E. Beal" at Feb 20, 94 10:38 am Hey All :) I recently rented this seemingly brilliantly written and researced book by David Irving. Could you tell me what you think about this one? The Holocaust is clearly admitted in the book on several occations (well at least the "Jew Problem" and the purging of them). This bokk is copyrighted in 1977. When did mr. Irving change his view in the Holocaust in writing? Isnt he merely saying that no documents can be found that order the Holocayst? I dont know. please privately e-mail me as I dont want to start Holocaust fight on the list (or in private either, just asking). Wasnt Irving one of the most driving forces that uncovered the fake "Hitler Diaries"? I saw a 2 episode show that seemed to give that conclusion. Did Hugh-Trevor Roper ever recover after endorsing the "diaries"? bye all Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 01:51:10 +0700 Reply-To: "Peter E. Beal" Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Colonel-General Guderian In-Reply-To: <9402201743.AA43816@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sun, 20 Feb 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote: > > With respect to Colonel-General Guderian, I recently read an account, where, > immediately before his dismissal as Commander of Army Group Vistula *he* > actually *lectured* Hitler and told him he was the fool, and not the General > Staff, for Germany's precarious plight in April 1945. Guderian did not then and never did command AG Vistula. He was Chief of the General Staff. And this "discussion" took place earlier, I think February (but I am too lazy to get out my references, including Hitler's Generals. > > Hitler foolishly insisted that final assualt would coome in Prague and that > Berlin was a Russian diversionary tactic. Guderian all but begged him to remove > 17 Panzer Divisions in Prague to Berlin immediately as well as the 20 Divisions > in Latvia. I don't think the Germans had as many as 17 Panzer (or Panzer and PzG) divisions in Czechoslovakia or its approaches February, 1945 or latter. But there were about 20 divisions in AG Kurland. > > Hitler refused both requests and suggested to the General that he "take to the > bath's" as he was overworked. It must be remembered that Hitler was, without > question a complete *COCAINE ADDICT* by April (thanks to "Doctor" Morell) and > unable to think rationally. > > The indignity of men of such brilliance as Guderian taking tactical orders from > the little Corporal must have been extremely demeaning. What I would have given > to be a fly on the wall during their last conference. > > Of course, at that time, the SS was settling accounts. Admiral Canaris and many > other fine, decent and brave German resisters were executed. In fact, Patton > arrived at Buchenwald just two days after Dietrich Boehnoffer was executed. > > Can anyone answer this question for me: the conference that I have just > described took place. The little pet spider, Bormann and Himmler were both > present (the latter being only to anxious to turn over his military command so > the ensuing disaster would not be blamed on him). > > Guderian's adjutant, General Krebs, was also present and later wrote that he was > certain that since Guderian told Hitler that everything was his fault to begin > with for wagin a two front war, he would be shot immediately. > > Yet he was spared. > > Does anyone care to speculate as to why Hitler (and especially the toad Bormann > and Himmler) allowed Guderian to live? > > Regards, Those present thought it might result in that. I think, however, that they stepped into a private room for the climax of their discussion. Then Hitler recovered his composure and told Guderian to take sick leave but be ready to resume his duties in six weeks because "the situation would be critical by then and I will need you" (or something close to that). With that kind of send-off, I think Guderian was immune to the machinations of Himmler and Borman. It would be interesting to ask where was the cut-off point, and why it was wherever that was, between the highest ranks (like Keitel) who could be accused of waging "aggressive war" and others (like Guderian), who were not so accused? Anybody know? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 08:20:46 +1000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Derek Monz Subject: Re: WEAP: B-17 Chin Turrets In-Reply-To: <199402190203.AA07490@marlin.jcu.edu.au> On Fri, 18 Feb 1994, Richard Kaplan wrote: > Basic question here; I just joined the Military Book Club, and as one of my > selections, I chose The Mighty Eighth in Color. Its been very enjoyable, and I > never realized the extent of color usage beyond olive and polished aluminium. > One of the interesting excerpts I ran across involved a bomb group with B-17Gs, > who removed their planes' chin turrets...why? I always assumed that the G was > a marked improvement over the earlier model Forts because of the forward twin > 50s. > > > Richard Kaplan > Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. Richard, Hi, well according to my inforamtion some groups removed the chin and or ball turrets to gain a speed advantage due to the removed weight. It was only done in the later months of the war when fighter oposition was considered as less of a danger than flak. This is my 2 cents worth anyway. EMail: Derek.Monz@jcu.edu.au Msc (Geology)@ JCU 1993 Disclamer: - I didn't do it! " If there is anything more important than my Ego..... I want it taken out and shot!" (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)). ((-------)) \o/ | _/ \_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 17:45:49 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Mark Stanford Subject: Re: B-17 Pilots > I hope that there is someone who can help me on this channel. My >Grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 9th Air Corp during the second World >War. Recently I saw a student who was reading a book about B-17 pilots >and I have been looking for it ever since. The name of the book was >something like "The Lucky Bastard's Club." Have any of you ever heard of >this book? If so, who is the author and do you happen to know the >publisher? I have the book and am currently reading it. I obtained it from the Military Book Club and think it was around $30 with shipping. The title is "The Lucky Bastard Club" and it is written by Eugene Fletcher. It is his story about the training and combat he experienced from 1943 - 1945. The publiser is the University of Washington Press in Seattle. The book is quite interesting with Mr. Fletcher going into a lot of detail. Lots of good photo's too. ******************************************************** Mark C. Stanford Internet: MARKSTANFORD@delphi.com Delphi : MARKSTANFORD "There ain't no Coupe DeVille lying in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box" - Jim Steinman ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 18:28:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Hitler: Peace in '43? I realize that "what if" questions (or as we historians call them, "counter-factual questions) are purely speculative. I am wondering if those who know the events of the Eastern Front very well feel that Hitler could have negotiated a peace with Stalin as late as The Battle of Kursk? If the answer is no, what, in your opinion, is the latest date that the National Socialist's could have saved themselves in retrospect and more importantly, what would they have to have done to pull it off? Ribbentrop was no Bismark (Hitler's quip to the contrary); intense foregin policy would have been required. I think that after Stalingrad, Hitler could have negotiated a stalemate peace with Stalin and received nothing in return. Stalin would have received nothing either. Does anyone agree or disagree with this viewpoint? Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 19:56:22 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joseph Wolm Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in 43? I think that Chuck is correct in respects to the fact that an agrement could have been reached. But, the problem is who would have negotiated the proposal. I highly doubt that Hitler or Stalin would have been able to break the ice to negotiate. Hitlers Germany needed hatred or, war to continue. Essentially Hitlers war machine began to break down and the only way for him to keep himself and Germany running was military success. This is one of the flaws with Hitlers beliefs. The people will loose faith if there is no success. If you think about it the Aryan race was supposed to be superior. How could Hitler afford to make a peace with Stalin without gaining some benifit. All in all I dont believe thhat Hitler could afford to have made a Standstill cease-fire with Stalin. It would have in his eyes at the time demoralized the troops. To conclude the possibility was there but, under the surcumstances it would not have happened. especially if you factor in his slowly degenerating campaign in North Africa. excuse my spelling errors...:) respectfully, Joseph M. E. Wolm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 21:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: The list comes through As I expected when I sent the request a few weeks ago the list came through with the goods. I asked the list if I was missing a chart in my copy of Organization of Ground Combat Troops in the Green Book Series. Well last week ( I don't know which day they've all run together recently) I received an envelope from Bill Cunliffe who heard my plea. The missing table is at least a double page foldout. I have thanked Bill individually but also wanted the rest of the list to know about the help that is available here ( As if most of us don't know already) Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) P.S. In a note that came with the chart Bill says there is lots more detailed records on organization at the Archives & the Army Center of Military History. I wish I had the time to take him up on it and dig into them :-) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 21:09:29 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MW Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in 43? I also think Chuck is right in that an agreement could've been reached between Hitler and Stalin, though it would've been difficult to pull off, as Joseph said. One thing that came to my mind in all of this -- the various allied powers would NOT have been pleased with the Soviet Union if they signed a peace with Germany and allowed the latter to direct all their attention to the west and to North Africa. To a lesser extent, I don't think Japan would've been too happy either, to have the Soviet Union take a more active role in the Pacific Theatre (not that they would've, but this is all hypothetical anyways...) So, it's possible that some thought about the post-war state of the world might've had some impact in any negotiations..... -Matt (vortex@uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 22:35:27 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Help! Greetings, I am posting this message in the hopes that someone out there can assist me. I am looking for a company (or library?) that offers photographs of histor- ical personalities. Specifically, I am looking for a large (8.5 x 11 or so) photo of Ulysses S. Grant. (OK, it's not WWII, I know, but I'll take a shot.) Anyway, any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! John Horner SUNY at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 22:46:04 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Peace in 43 Chuck, Very interesting post. I think that with our hindsight, we can see that any sort of raproachement between Hitler and Stalin even up to Kursk would have been advantageous to National Socialism, but I prefer to look through 1943 German eyes. The war in Russia was still going Hitler's way in may (I mean "many") respects, even with the Stalingrad debacle. Kursk was supposed to be the final kick in the foundation of the rotting house, so up to Kursk, the dream and political philosophy of Lebensraum and the rest was just a (seemingly) simple matter of finishing off the Russians. When we look back and see how hopeless the situation really was, it's hard to believe that Hitler didn't see it. And, after the great victory of Kursk, how could Stalin have entertained any thoughts of any sort of negotiated settlement? I guess my point is that up till Kursk, Hitler knew he was going to win, and after, Stalin knew that he was going to win. So, any sort of rapproachement would have been, in my opinion, impossible even to contemplate. Now, some German military and political leaders knew the reality of the situation even before the Stalingrad situation really got desperate, but they were certainly in the minority. It's a good bet that any sort of idea of a negotiated settlement would have been met with a great deal of opposition in Germany. And, in the USSR, the post-Kursk atmosphere would have been similar. Just a thought, John Horner SUNY at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 23:59:46 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joseph Wolm Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in 43? Well anyway your thoughts about how a peace would have affected the powers of world war 2 is interesting. but, If Germany was to have made a peace with USSR it would have in my eyes many ddifferent possible affects... too numerable to mention here. This is the funddamental problem with what if questions. as I said though a peace would have been nearly impossible to acheive. The two parties in question where almost diametrically opposed. respectfully, Joseph M. E. Wolm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 08:43:09 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: George PISZCZUK Subject: Code-Named Operation Jerico On the 18 February, 1944, 18 Mosquito bombers bombed the gates of a Nazi jail. The raid, code-named Operation Jerico, allowed 437 prisoners to escape. While I am familiar with the raid I do not recall how successfull the escapees were. How many of them actually got away? George PIszczuk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 08:00:44 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Fegelein's Execution 29 April 1945 This story has baffled me for years. No historian has truly explained it, including Hugh Trevor-Roper. We all know that Himmler was secretly negotiating with Count Bernadotte (sp?) from Sweden to end the war in the West. When Hitler found about about *Goering's* telegram regarding the line of succession, he was actually pretty calm, all things considered. I think he said something like "someone has to do it" although Borman wanted Goering arrested (which he was) and shot (which he was not). I think Hitler lost it after he discovered Himmler's treachery. It is true that Fegelein (sp?) was Eva Braun's brother-in-law. So he was smart and trying to get the hell out Berlin. So what? As everyone knows, Hitler ordered that he be shot at once when the SS found him at his apartment and dragged him back the Chancellory Bunker. You would think that, since Eva Braun traveled to Berlin of her own free will and volition, Hitler would spare her brother-in-law. I could list dozens of names of people whom he perceived that he accounts to settle with. Fegelin was a small fry. Any speculation as to why he was popped? Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 19:49:25 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in '43? In-Reply-To: <9402202332.AA27126@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sun, 20 Feb 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote: > I realize that "what if" questions (or as we historians call them, > "counter-factual questions) are purely speculative. > > I am wondering if those who know the events of the Eastern Front very well feel > that Hitler could have negotiated a peace with Stalin as late as The Battle of > Kursk? > According to one history of WWII (by a famous historian whose name escapes me now, but I am sure somebody will supply) related that negotiations did take place in the spring of 1943. Stalin wanted the Germans to pull back to the partition line in Poland; the Germans wanted the border to be the then existing front line. No deal and the war went on. I don't recall that a source was given for this story or that it was reported in other histories (it rated headlines when the book came out). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 09:11:36 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Pictures Friday I FTPed to 129.71.32.152 (U of K) and I thank the list as a whole for assisting me (apparently there was some snafu). While I was at the site snooping around, I noticed a driectory with picture files. Does anyone know other places that have WWII picture files? Thanks Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 09:25:51 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: Help! The Library of Congress' Division of Prints and Posters (or whatever it's called; I may have that title slightly wrong) has a pretty extensive collection of historical photos. They will make copies of anything they have for a reasonable fee. Justin Gustainis Department of Communication SUNY-Plattsburgh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 09:48:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jacques tremblay Subject: George Blake A Professor here at our University, whose name is Eric Thompson, is looking for some information about this World War II-era, Scottish novelist (George Blake), author of "Mountain and Flood, " a history of the British 52nd (Lowland) Division, with which he served from from 1940-45. Thank you in advance, Jacques Tremblay Chicoutimi, Quebec, Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:19:11 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Fegelein's execution Herewith some speculation: Fegelein was the easiest "traitor" to apprehend, just down the street, so to speak. -- Warren Thompson LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE Annville PA 17003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:25:06 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Dennis E. Sparks" Subject: Re: removing B-17 chin turrets Regarding Richard Kaplan's comment about removing the chin turrets from some 8th AF B-17G aircraft.... As I recall it from reading several of Roger Freeman's other books on the 8th AF, late in the war (c. Feb 1945), several groups in the 8th AF were ordered to remove various items of their defensive armament as a test. Fighter opposition was becoming more scarce, with more of the losses due to AA fire. One group (or perhaps it was a single squadron within a group) was directed to remove the chin turret, another removed the ball turret, still another deleted at least one of the waist gunners. The intent was to produce aircraft that were lighter, and therefore able to operate at higher altitude, and/or carry more payload. BTW, a semi-related anecdote from a friend of mine, who was a B-24 pilot in the 455th BG, 15th AF, stationed at Foggia, Italy, from July-Nov 1944. According to him, the aircraft's performance suffered when the ball turret was lowered. Therefore, for the final run to the target it was standard practice for the gunner to leave the ball turret, and retract it back up into the fuselage. I don't know how widespread this practice was, but I assume that it would have to be done on at least Wing level, in order to keep the formation together. I don't recall hearing of a similar practice within the 8th AF. Dennis E. Sparks sparks@caer.uky.edu Lexington, Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:11:45 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Wild Subject: Re: Code-Named Operation Jerico Jericho sounded like a neat idea to the instigators. My immediate question would be: Was there any info going into the prison that might have prepared the prisoners for the opportunity (assuming that most inmates are not charged and ready to go at a moments notice - they must understand that throwing stones and swinging chair parts is different from 9mm). All it takes is one smg after the smoke clears, and all you have is a bunch of gawkers, standing there imagining what if. -Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Wild, LAN Mgr. Father of 1.5 Voice: (401) 792-2611 ACC - Lippitt - URI American Legion Post 102. FAX: (401) 792-5479 Kingston, RI 02881 Bitnet: AWild@URIACC Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU Murphy's Uncertainty Principle: You can know something has gone wrong only when you make an odd number of mistakes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Operation Jericho The New York TIMES for 18 Feb carried a story about this. There was a reunion of some of the pilots and former inmates. -- Warren Thompson LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE Annville PA 17003 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 11:03:00 CDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Roger Safian Subject: 50th Aniversary edition of Army Green Books Greetings, I received the first book in a series put out by the National Historical Society, reprinting the U.S. Army in World War II. Is anyone else out there receiving these books? What do you think of them? Are there any changes from the original editions? It doesn't look like they come with the nice fold out maps of the originals. I already have 10-15 volumes of the original, and I am a bit disapointed that I won't be able to intigrate them. Just looking for opinions...Haven't made up my mind if I want to keep them yet. Roger P.S. The big advantage of this, is that they'll send them to me, and I won't have to get off my duff to do a thing! I've wanted the complete set for a while. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 09:34:01 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Colonel-General Guderian Ah, I see. Your "wrong again" message to me was a quiblle that Keitel and Co should have been shot rather than hanged. Exquisite consideration for human monsters, one should think; a choice of death they did not extend to their victims. One should keep in mind that, for instance, Field Marshal Keitel was executed for having authorized the execution of thousands of Soviet commissars and the mass killing of innumerable women and children in German-occupied Russia in 1941/1942. He and his cronies were suitably dispatched by an expert hangman, US Master Sergeant John C. Wood. The following morning, their bodies were taken to Dachau, where the Nazi crematorium ovens were re-ignited and the war- criminals' were cremated. That night, their ashes were dropped into a river on the outskirts of Munich. To every on the Allied side, October 15, 1946, was a day of considerable sataisfaction. At the time. Of course, things are seen differently over a comfortable 50-year gap. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 13:08:33 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joseph Wolm Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in 43? As I said earlier even if the Germans where willing to settle (which is highly doubtfull) Hitler would not have agreed. Stalin would not have been willing to accept any loss of land. Hitler would not have accepted anything less than total victory. This is the reason that even if there where negotiations the two personalities would not have agreed. The only negotiation Hitler could have accepted would be a surrender. And anyone knowing Russian history would know that this would never happen. The Russians where not completely defeated at that pointr in time. Joseph M. E. Wolm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:11:24 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: 50th Aniversary edition of Army Green Books I would be most grateful if you would let me know how/where one may buy copies of those US Army In WW2 Green Books. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 12:27:02 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Hitler's "Kill Commissars" order In-Reply-To: <199402211731.AA13255@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Sidney Allinson" at Fe Sid, While I'd entirely agree with you that Keitel & Co. got entirely what they deserved -- and a lot of others were allowed to escape -- the Soviet commissars got what THEY deserved, as well. These people were Stalinists who supported Stalinism, which included the show trials, mass deportations/enslavements/extermi- nations, etc. A bullet through their heads is what they had inflicted on not just Poles at Katyn (and other places) but Russians, ad infinitum -- anyone under Soviet control. Bob Conquest's STALIN: BREAKER OF NATIONS chronicles some of these tragedies. He also mentions the 1940 SS/NKVD meeting at Zakopane -- a Polish winter resort south of Krakow -- wherein the NKVD shared its lengthy experience of deportation/enslavement/ extermination with the Nazi SS. It is worth considering that fewer Jews, Slavs, and other victim peoples would have died, had the Soviets not helped the Nazis so effusively in this arena. As you know, the NKVD (and others) murdered many non-Communists -- not just nationalists -- in countries like the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, etc., as the Red Army retreated in 1941. As I am sure you also know, that helped to fuel hatred against the Jews, who were -- rightly or wrongly -- accused of collaborating with the Soviets during the pre-1941 Soviet occupation period. If our baby-faced American infantry lieutenant had liberated a GULAG camp, like the Nazi camp in the incident (I think) we discussed (here), I am confident he would have administered "Frontier Justice" just as effectively and justifiably. All the American intelligentsia's outrage about Hitler's order to kill commissars is quite peculiar, considering the historical facts and context. They got what they deserved. Lou Coatney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 16:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ronald A Wilson Subject: Plea Text item: Text_1 Please, if possible, set your margins to 5 and 65 so that one can read your entire text without having to cursor back and forth for every line. I read every contribution with great interest and it sometimes takes many minutes as most text goes way off my screen. Perhaps someone has ideas on how I could force all the text within 65 spaces. I use cc:Mail for Windows. thanks, this is a great list. Wilson@Battelle.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 13:28:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: Nuremberg & Shooting vs. Hanging I don't remember seeing anyone mention Bradley Smith's book, _Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg_. I recall that it helps to sort through the business of selecting who would be tried and especially the difficulties of constructing the legal rationales for the charges brought against the defendants. I believe Smith also mentions (discusses?) Frau Jodl's request that her husband be shot rather than ignominiously hung with the "likes" of Streicher, Saukel, Ribbentrop, etc. (I may be mixing this up with reading elsewhere.) In "Judgment at Nuremberg," the character played by Marlene Dietrich, Frau Berthold, hates the Americans because they hung her husband rather than shoot him. He is a fictitious character tried in the film (by reference only) for the Malmedy massacre. ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 16:26:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SUN 20 FEB 1994 13:35:27 EST > Greetings, > I am posting this message in the hopes that someone out there can assist me. > I am looking for a company (or library?) that offers photographs of histor- > ical personalities. Specifically, I am looking for a large (8.5 x 11 or so) > photo of Ulysses S. Grant. (OK, it's not WWII, I know, but I'll take a > shot.) Anyway, any help with this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! > > John Horner > SUNY at Delhi Dear John: For Grant's picture, try the US Bureau of Printing and Engraving in Washington, DC. They have for sale pictures of each US President. For old war photos in general, try the Bettamin (sp?) Archives. Your local newspaper editor can give you the address (they might be in New York City). They have all sorts of old news photos. - Jonah Triebwasser (Just a county or two away!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 15:47:41 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: 50th Aniversary edition of Army Green Books In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 21 FEB 1994 10:03:00 CST Can you post the information you know about the Green Books reprint series? Who it is, where they can be reached? I'd prefer to buy the set complete rather than look around in used book stores for one volume for 20 years. I hope they aren;t expensive-I picked a bad time to buy a house!! ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 08:55:48 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Foster Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Sat, 19 Feb 1994 08:20:39 -0500 (EST)" <9402191331.27391@munnari.oz.au> >Any comments on this thought? We all know what a coward Goring was in taking a >cyanide capsule and killing himself. Which brings up another question: wasn't it >a bit gross hanging Goring's body anyway? >I know the Russians would done that, but we (the Americans) carried out the >executions. Comments would be appreciated. Chuck I was under the impression that Goring's body was taken to the place of execution and merely exposed for inspection so that all concerned could see that he was dead and to avoid speculation at a later date and become the subject of a documentary on US television viz "Did Goring Really Die" or some such media tripe. My only comments on the whole execution scene is how macabre it was (as all executions usually are) and how most of the Nazi leaders from Hitler down after expecting everyone else to fight to the death they opted for the easy way out or just simply fled leaving the armed forces representatives who they despised to pick up the pieces and face the music which took more responsibility and guts than their superiors.To me that said it all about Nazism and its supposed "true believers" .It showed that what they were really preaching was nihilism. Regards John ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 12:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: Salerno Mutiny I just received my shipment from the Military Book Club (I just *love* my faux Swiss Army knife! :-) and one of my selections was "Fatal Decision: Anzio and the Battle for Rome" by Carlo D'este. I was wondering how reliable D'este is. The reason why I ask is because he devotes no more than four lines to the Mutiny of Salerno during the invasion. He noted that Lt. Gen. McCreery personally disfused the situation of British troops refusing to fight. I had read that that story had been refuted by memoirs of those present and from court martial records. Apparently, McCreery was interviewed in 1960 and made himself appear as the hero (the mutiny has been a blemish on the history of the British Army). McCreery recounted that he had exhorted the "traitors" to return to their units but he had been met with derision and jeers. According to his version of events, when 191 soldiers still refused to join units of the Fifth Army, McCreery reluctantly ordered their court martials. Apparently the truth of the matter was much different. The 191 soldiers, many still recovering from wounds and illnesses incurred during the North African and Sicilian campaigns, were from units in Montgomery's Eighth Army and were obstensibly under orders to return to their units. Instead they were posted as emergency replacements to the Allied Fifth Army at Salerno. Just as these replacements reached Salerno, the Germans began their withdrawal to new positions. With no emergency situation any longer dictating otherwise, the men felt duty bound (in line with centuries-old English tradition) to be returned to their original divisions in the Eighth Army. When no one in authority would listen, they took the only course open to them: they refused to move from the beaches. Court martial records indicate that according to testimony of several junior officers, McCreery was never at the scene and the speech to the troops had been given by one of his subordinates. These troops were "perfectly quiet and absolutely obedient" to all orders except those to join units in the Fifth Army. Thus the mutineers actually kept faith with their traditions and training, remaining loyal and obedient to their division leaders. Out of the enire number, three "ring leaders" were sentenced to death, NCOs were given ten years of hard labor, and the privates were sentenced to seven years. After judicial review, all the sentences were commuted, and the men returned to units in Italy -- though not to their original divisions. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com It's a big, beautiful mother of a bridge! Think that the bridge will be there and it will be there! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 18:49:15 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stan Koper Organization: None at the moment Subject: Re: removing B-17 chin turrets In-Reply-To: <199402211600.IAA16070@mail.netcom.com> > Regarding Richard Kaplan's comment about removing the chin turrets > from some 8th AF B-17G aircraft.... > > As I recall it from reading several of Roger Freeman's other > books on the 8th AF, late in the war (c. Feb 1945), several groups > in the 8th AF were ordered to remove various items of their defensive > armament as a test. Fighter opposition was becoming more scarce, with > more of the losses due to AA fire. One group (or perhaps it was a > single squadron within a group) was directed to remove the chin turret, > another removed the ball turret, still another deleted at least > one of the waist gunners. The intent was to produce aircraft > that were lighter, and therefore able to operate at higher altitude, > and/or carry more payload. > > BTW, a semi-related anecdote from a friend of mine, who was a B-24 > pilot in the 455th BG, 15th AF, stationed at Foggia, Italy, from > July-Nov 1944. According to him, the aircraft's performance suffered > when the ball turret was lowered. Therefore, for the final run to the > target it was standard practice for the gunner to leave the ball > turret, and retract it back up into the fuselage. I don't know how > widespread this practice was, but I assume that it would have to be > done on at least Wing level, in order to keep the formation together. > I don't recall hearing of a similar practice within the 8th AF. > > Dennis E. Sparks > sparks@caer.uky.edu > Lexington, Kentucky > I'm reading Fred Koger's _Countdown! Thirty-Five Missions Against Nazi Germany_. Koger was a bombardier with the 326th squadron, 92nd Bomb Group, flying B-17G's. He mentions flying with a nine-man crew, one waist gunner instead of two, supposedly because two waist gunners got in each other's way. Possibly true--the B-17 looks big in films and photos, but up close it's kind of small (compact might be a better word), and there's not much room inside. Odd fact: the total crew weight listed on the side of a B-17 is 2000 pounds. The total crew weight listed on the side of a P-38 is also 2000 pounds. Does anyone recall who it was who recommended (to Hap Arnold, I think) that they dispense with B-17's & B-24's and just use P-38's for bombing? Stan Koper skoper@netcom.com This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 21:02:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: RFD: soc.history.war.* This is a formal 2nd RFD to formalize the proposal for two soc.history.war.* groups. Two groups are proposed at this stage: soc.history.war.world-war-ii (Moderated) soc.history.war.misc Soc.history.war.world-war-ii is proposed as moderated to keep out the Holocaust Revisionists and their ilk. If you question why this is necessary, please glance at soc.history and misc.headlines. Megabytes per day of articles about how the Holocaust Never Happened, Folks. Soc.history.war.misc is proposed as unmoderated. In the first RFD, it was not proposed and instead several other wars (the U.S. Civil War, World War I, and the Vietnam War) were proposed for newsgroups. World War I received insufficient support to be taken forward and the other two wars were too controversial as alt. groups already existed for discussion of those conflicts. However, several people began speaking up and saying "Hey, how about a Napoleonic Wars newsgroup" and so on and it quickly became ridiculous. Hence, soc.history.war.misc. Now, if you wonder why we need a brace of war groups at all, let me say this: A war includes more than military events. A war includes social, political, economic, military, and demographic events. Discussion of a war typically includes the *war era* and not just the war. Present groups which exist to discuss military issues are very specific: sci.military, alt.folklore.military, alt.war. All of these tend to focus very strongly on the military aspects and less on the historical and other aspects. Discussion of World War II and wars in general takes place on a wide range of newsgroups, many of which specialize on recent military history. The most notable example of war discussion taking place elsewhere is the World War II mailing list, which averages 800 megabytes per month of traffic. The moderators of this mailing list are in favor of the creation of a World War Two newsgroup as the subject has more than demonstrated its carrying power on the Net. I have put together a provisional staff of moderators for soc.history.war.world-war-ii and this list will be published at the time the group goes to a vote. The charter proposed for soc.history.war.world-war-ii is as follows: Discussion of the era 1939-1945 in particular, but ranging as far back as 1918 and as far forward as the 1950's for discussion of events leading to the War and post-war events such as the occupation of Japan and Germany. The discussion will be limited to social, political, military, economic, demographic, and historial aspects of World War II, including discussion of: * Arms limitations treaties in the 1920's, intended to head off any future war * the Weimar Republic * the rise of the Italian Fascists * the Japanese war with China * the rise of the Nazi Party * American isolationism * Franco-British appeasement * Italian misadventures in Africa * German occupation of the Sudentenland and Austria * the war proper, 1939-1945 * the Manhattan Project * the Holocaust * Post-war occupation of Japan and Germany * Post-war governments of Europe * and so on. In other words, the mandate for soc.history.war.world-war-ii is intended to be broad, rather than narrow, with moderation in place less to limit discussion than to keep out Gannon and the Holocaust Revisionists and other malicious posters. The charter for soc.history.war.misc is as follows: General discussion of wars, including social, political, historical, economic, and demographic aspects. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 19:30:19 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Office TH325, Extension 3566" Subject: German POW I'm asking this question for my brother. A German friend showed my brother a dictionary his father had bought while a POW in Texas. What caught my brother's eye is that it was dated 1948. Did we still have German POWs in 1948? Would these have been "ordinary" POW or only the more sinister? My bother decided not to pursue that line of questioning with his friend. Any help would be appreciated. John Riegsecker Riegsecker@ups.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 21:13:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: Keitel, Jodl, Goering (pictorial evidence) For the strong-of-stomach among you, there is pictorial evidence of the "satisfactory" conclusion to the war crimilals' lives in the Time/Life WWII series volume that deals with the aftermath in Germany (don't have access to it right now). Give me a firing squad, any day! Hanging ain't a pretty sight.... ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 01:58:24 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Code-Named Operation Jerico The French, both in and out of the prision at Amiens, knew about the raid. In January, 1944, the resistance learned that the Gernmans were planning to execute 100 French prisoners. They appealed for the British for an airstrike to breach the prison walls so they could rescue them--even if it meant killing some of the prisoners i in the process. The raid, code named "operation Jericho," was given to the 140th Wing consisting of the 21st, 487th, &464th squadrons (interestingly, these were the same squadrons that had flown the Ventura). The Mosquitos task was to breach the 20 ft. high, 3 feet thick wall, open the main building, and destroy the guard's quarters. Group Captain P. C. Pickard was in overall command. On 19 Feb, 18 Mosquitos attacked the target and were very successful. So successful in fact that the planes of the 21st squadron diddn't h have to attack. The prisoners were ready and many escaped through the wall and running in all direction across snow covered fields to be collected by the resistance. A specially equipped Mosquito from the Film Photographic Unit flew three passes over the prision to document the escape. This film, along with interviews with the pilots and some fo the escapees was made into a video by the BBC (I haven't seen it). I don't know the exact number of prisioners that escaped, but the raid was considered a sucess by all involved. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 07:29:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 22-23 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES TUESDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): In Panama, the 28th Fighter Squadron, XXVI Fighter Command, based at Chame with P-39s, sends a detachment to Pocri. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 70+ B-25s, P-51s, and P-40s again hit a variety of targets in Burma; bridges are severely damaged or put out of use at Zawa, Tindeinyan, Ye-u, Namkwin, and Loilaw; warehouses and supply dumps are hit at Segyi and at Chantha, and the Pahok road and railroad junction are blasted; also hit are targets of opportunity at Kawlum and along the Walawbum-Kamaing road. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe the airfield at Kengtung, China and nearby truck convoy. At Bhamo, Burma a large rivercraft is hit and left sinking. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ VIII Bomber Command is redesignated as HQ, Eighth Air Force. Mission 230: "Big Week" continues with 799 aircraft dispatched against German aviation and Luftwaffe airfields; 41 bombers and 11 fighters are lost. 1. 289 B-17s are dispatched against aviation industry targets at Aschersleben (34 bomb), Bernburg (47 bomb) and Halberstadt (18 bomb) in conjunction with a Fifteenth Air Force raid on Regensburg, Germany; 32 hit Bunde, 19 hit Wernegerode, 15 hit Magdeburg, 9 hit Marburg and 7 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 32-18-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 38 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 141 damaged; casualties are 35 KIA, 30 WIA and 367 MIA. 2. 333 B-17s are dispatched to Schweinfurt but severe weather prevents aircraft from forming properly and they are forced to abandon the mission prior to crossing the enemy coast; 2 B-17s are damaged. 3. 177 B-24s are dispatched but they are recalled when 100 miles (160 km) inland; since they were over Germany, they sought targets of opportunity but strong winds drove the bombers over The Netherlands and their bombs hit Enschede, Arnhem, Nijmegen and Deventer; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost and 3 damaged; casualties are 30 MIA. These missions are escorted by 67 P-38s, 535 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s, and 57 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and 6 are damaged; the P-47s claim 39-6-15 Luftwaffe aircraft, 8 P-47s are lost and 12 damaged, 8 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 19-1-10 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and 3 damaged, 3 pilot are MIA. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 66 B-26s bomb Gilze-Rijen Airfield, The Netherlands; bad weather causes 100+ others to abort. UNITED STATES STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USSTAF): HQ Eighth Air Force is redesignated as HQ, USSTAF. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17s attack Petershausen marshalling yard and Regensburg aircraft factory in Germany and the air depot at Zagreb, Yugoslavia; a large force of B-24s hits Regensburg aircraft plants about the same time as the B-17 attack; other B-24s pound the town of Sibenik and the harbor at Zara, Yugoslavia; they claim 40 Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed; 13 bombers are lost. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Foligno marshalling yard and Montalto di Castro railroad bridge, and B-26s attack Albinia Station railroad bridge; A-20s hit the area E of Campoleone; P-47s strike troops, gun positions, and a road junction N of Carroceto, roads near Roccasecca, and the town of Campoleone; A-36s hit guns NW of Carroceto and the town of Formia; P-40s attack guns SE of Campoleone. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 1 B-24 bombs Kusaie Island. 8 A-24s and 9 P-40s from Makin Island bomb Mille Atoll; 1 P-40 launches rockets against airfield targets in the first such attack by a Seventh Air Force aircraft. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 20 P-40s and 40+ US Navy (USN) fighters cover 70 USN dive bombers attacking Keravia Bay shipping; 40+ B-24s, with fighter escorts, bomb Lakunai and Keravat Airfields. 370th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Guadalcanal Island to Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24s. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 30+ B-25s and P-39s attack the Madang, New Guinea area. 60+ B-25s and B-24s pound Iboki Plantation on New Britain Island in support of US Marines (USMC) advancing on the area from Natamo (and who capture Perry Island). 319th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 90th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-24s. WEDNESDAY, 23 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 14 B-24s bomb airfields and other targets at Akyab and Dabaing; 3 B-25s and 12 P-51s hit a radio station at Man Pang; 4 other P-51s hit warehouses at Chantha. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s attack 2 ships in the Gulf of Tonkin and hit railroad cars and engine shed at Van Trai Station, French Indochina. 4 P-40s strafe Lashio Airfield, Burma. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 232: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Rennes, Le Mans, Chartres, Lille and Orleans, France at 2136-2232 hours without loss. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24s bomb the industrial complex at Steyr, Austria. Other heavy bombers are forced to abort because of bad weather; the bombers and escorting fighters claim 30+ aircraft shot down. Moves in Italy: HQ 306th Fighter Wing from Foggia to Lucera; 764th, 765th, 766th and 767th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 461st Bombardment Group (Heavy), from Venosa to Torretto with B-24s (first mission is 2 Apr). TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, P-40s hit a gun position N of Campoleone and patrol the Anzio area. Weather prevents other operations. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island bomb Mille Atoll; 2 small boats are destroyed by strafing; B-25s from Abemama Island hit Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll. B-24s from Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll bomb Kusaie and Ponape Islands and Jaluit Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Ireland Island, 4 B-24s on armed reconnaissance strafe the Cape Saint George area and bomb buildings and pier at Labur Bay and 4 B-24s attack bivouacs in the upper Saua River area. On New Britain Island, 9 B-25s, with USN fighter support, bomb Vunakanau Airfield; 10 other B-25s hit Keravat Airfield; 16 P-38s dive-bomb the Wunapope supply area and some attack the town of Rabaul; this is the first P-38 bombing raid on the Rabaul area; (P-38s, now free from constant responsibility of guarding bombers against interceptors, will continue to dive-bomb the Rabaul area through Apr 44; during the latter part of this campaign against the famed Japanese garrison, which is to be bypassed by Allied ground forces, P-39s will add their strength due to completion of an airstrip on Nissan Island in the Green Islands; by 20 Apr only 120 of 1400 buildings in Rabaul will still be standing). SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Almost 50 A-20s and B-24s blast the airfield, buildings, and AA positions in the Wewak, New Guinea area. Units moving from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea: HQ 90th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 320th, 321st and 400th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) with B-24s; 500th and 501st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), with B-25s. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 07:58:24 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bill Vasilion A few weeks back I asked about army air forces in Iwo Jima..as my father had served there with the army air corp from feb 1945 to oct 1945....He was a 1st sargent with the 2nd air craft repair unit I have photos of the 47th fighter squadron... (where they fighters or pursuit ??) I found a few penciled in notes he had in the book he had bought 'A HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES AIRFORCE." He piloted a typewriter but in 1943 he was sent to Biloxi miss. for bombardier and naviagtor school but he told them that he gets air sick.... ...(things could have been a lot different... if he had made it ...i may not have been here..... well he writes of jan 45 being on the way to iwo jima passing over tinian seeing hundreds of b-29s parked tail to tail He said the transport he was with was made up of invasion Marines, aaf personnel and navy people... on feb 19 dauntless dive bombers were dive bombing mt suribachi with napalm. and my dads group was scheduled to go in on d-day + 1. his group finally made it to the beach d-day plus 6. then they had to dig fox holes and live in that for two weeks and then moved inland closer to mt suribachi and again lived in foxholes for two more weeks... In march the Marines secured the island.... 4,500 men killed to Japan losing 22,000 men... is this correct?? then he said that half the group moved out to okinawa and soon crippled b-29's were landing at thier air strips on iwo jima..... well i thought i would let you know what one soilder went thru.. My brother in law's father was in the european theatre and he had to do hand to hand combat with the nazi's......... i dont know what exact unit that was... thanks to jack for sending the history of the Air force...... and if anyone knows what listserv that would cover world war two aviation let me know. I dont have access to usenet... thanks again...........bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 13:33:13 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Combat Command A/B Err Ladies and Gentlemen! A quick question... Could someone explain to a layman the rationale behind dividing armoured regiments into CCA/CCB (and the differences between them) in the US Army during WWII? hope the question makes sense... steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk Colemanballs temporarily unavailable... apologies to my regular readership..... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 08:41:16 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: SOC.HISTORY.WAR Dumb question here, but why form a new WWII list if we already have a terrific list here? Are there some people who can't get WWII-L? And can I sign on to lists that begin "soc?" Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 09:37:22 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Keitel, Jodl, Goerin... Hi Steve, thanks for the info on where to look for the photos. But in my opinion people used to be drawn and quartered for less. Maybe we should have let the Saudi's behead the lot of them. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 07:05:03 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Hitler's "Kill Commissars" order yes, Lou. But for every comisar the Nazi genarals ordered murdered in Russia, there were a thousand Russian women and children slaughtered. 'Doesn't do to ignore them. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 07:06:54 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Notes from D.C. trip In-Reply-To: <9402220408.AA15819@agaviion.agfx.com> My family and I just spent the weekend being tourists in Washington D.C. and I thought I'd pass on several items of interest to this list: The Air & Space Museum has a new display: "Air Power In WWII". The first place they highlighted was the P-47 Thunderbolt; I just missed that one, but they now have the only existing German Arado 234 jet bomber, beautifully restored. I wasn't aware that this 2 engine bomber was active in recon missions in 1944. Relying on speed, it carried no defensive armament and onyl one crew member. It's bombload was limited to one externally mounted 500 or 1000 lb. bomb. The video with the display made the point that even though the Arado was able to bring back quality recon photos of Allied positions, by that time in '44 the German Army in France had too few resources to take advantage. The Washington Post for Monday 2/21/94 had a fascinating article about the "Return to Normandy Association". Over 30 of the *original* 82nd/101st paratroopers who dropped on D-Day are going to recreate the drop on June 6 1994 in Normandy; some of these guys are in their 80's! The Pentagon and US gov't wants nothing to do with this; they're dropping under the auspices of the French gov't, which asked that each man do 3 qualifying drops before coming to Normandy; that was the occassion for this article. Each man profiled was fascinating. Finally, the visit to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum: words fail me. Just go, if you can. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 10:23:02 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations Sidney Allison corrected me by saying: > Rome fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944 (not "May"), 36 hours before > D-Day. 'Took much of the spotlight away from freeing the Eternal City. Your right. Meant days said weeks, dopy moi. May is when they will be celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Casino Battle(s). I went through my books and the only ones *I* have are Jackson's the Battle for Rome and one on Salerno. The rest I had checked out from the Base library at San Vito. The mind is a terrible thing.... Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 08:32:58 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl Yes, Goering's body was merely "displayed" after his suicide -- not hanged while dead. This is now an enduring myth. Each of the gang strung up after Nuremburg was photographed in death, to prevent any later rumours of their survival. There seems to be agreat deal of romanticized nonsense about the supposed "soldierlyness" of some of the Nazi generals. In fact, they warranted being hanged as common criminals, as they were, without need for debate about how they should have been shot, to avoid the "stigma"of a length of hemp. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 11:06:09 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Cassino Operations > Bill-- > > I hope when you say, "[w]hile true that the Germans had no > guns at the abbey tehy certainly had observers for the guns..." > you don't mean that they had observers in the abbey. The > information I have is quite to the contrary, and clearly > indicates that destruction of the Monastery was not only > senseless, but in fact counter productive. I thought I said the observers were around the Abbey. Anyway, the perception of the troops in the valley below was that the Abbey was the problem and they were screaming for it to be leveled. This may well have been an act of desperation and frustration rather than a well thought out tactical operation. Put yourself in their position. You know the Germans are in the hills all around you and have no reason to expose themselves to your return fire and still keep killing your buddies. What 'cha gonna do? You can't flatten the whole mountain. Another part of the problem was the timing of the infantry assault following the bombing. The delay in the ground assault gave the advantage to the Germans by allowing them to recover from the shock of the bombing. > I don't have any immediate sources to draw on, but I'm > sure at least several would take exception to calling > Anzio a "strong bridgehead". "Holding on by its fingernails" > would probably be more apt. The "strong bridgehead" I referred to was the goal - not the reality. As I said, the operation was hastily implemented due to pushing from Churchill, the crisis at Casino and Eisenhauer's rationing of equipment for the landing. I still believe the landings would have been in greater danger by pushing inland and gaining depth because the troops would have been more diluted in their defensive posture. Its easier to control a smaller area where units can support one another with overlapping fields of fire. > Perhaps the question was not so much whether there should have > been an allied breakout from Anzio toward Rome, but rather > whether, by advancing a little farther, the allies might have > obtained better defensive positions, and had less of the beach > itself exposed to German fire. As I said above, there just was not the strength to hold a larger area. German attacks were of the "bust through with tanks and wreak havoc in the rear" variety. Had the US forces pushed inland they would have been vulnerable to this strategy. As it was they were able to support one another against such attacks. Joe will love this, but, like Oddball said: "The only way I got to keep them tigers interested is to let them shoot holes in me". US forces could have been used to tie up the Germans by running all over the country side with the Germans trying to run them all down but that is not an effective strategy. > > Adolf Hitler Line and the rest. The Germans wanted to set up a line > > that would cause the allies to have to amass for an attack and then > > the Germans would fall back to the next prepared line costing the > > allies months in preparation for offensives that (while successful) > > bought the Germans valuable time with acceptable losses. > > And it seems to have worked, for the most part. Oh, it worked wonderfully. It was the best way to contain an Allied army in Italy and *everybody* knew it. Thats why Ike gave it such short shrift. > > Stan Koper > skoper@netcom.com Thanks Stan, for pointing out the confusing parts of my ramblings. I hope I have not confused them further. :-/ Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 09:10:08 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Keitel, Jodl, Goering (pictorial evidence) As you say, "hanging is not a pretty sight". Mind you, Adolph enjoyed watching 16 mm. movies of the hanging of his enemies. He favored piano-wire instead of boring old hemp. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 09:47:45 -0600 Reply-To: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors In-Reply-To: <01H96FS76FTYDP7UOX@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU>; from "RICHARD KING" at Feb 17, 94 8:38 am > I am not answering directly to Robert's query, but I am interested > in Vargas--especially the ESQUIRE centerfolds. I have been told > it is rare to find an intact vintage ESQUIRE of the WWII period > (or exactly when the Vargas art appeared, I'm not sure--does > anyone know) with the centerfold still in the magazine. A friend It's difficult, but not impossible. Visit a GOOD used book/magazine store, especially one that deals with antique comics, it seems. They will usually carry a lot of old Time, Saturday Evening Post, etc. magazines. They will also carry Esquire. Finding anything dated 1939-1945 is by far the most difficult. I can find zillions of Esquires dated post-war, but during war is hard. Yet it's not impossible. Just keep checking. When checking, also look in their glass cabinets. They know the value of these magazines and will not often put them out on the rack with the rest of them. You will need to ask to see what they have (and it's a good idea to ask if they have any stashed away -- Some will do that, figuring those truly interested will ask rather than just browse). > (one of those guys who pokes around estate sales, buying boxes > of junk, etc.) recently bought for about 50 cents a big box > of ESQUIRES WITH the Vargas centerfolds in them. He said they > probably run about $75 each with the centerfold, virtually nothing > without it. If you pay that much for an Esquire, even war-time with the original artwork still attached, you're getting ripped off. The magazines with the centerfolds (note: Many had TWO ... One Vargas, one Petty or other...) can be found in excellent shape for around $15.00. I've seen places selling them as high as $50.00+, but what they are doing is preying on those that "don't know any better." One of those "whatever the market will bear" kindof things. I routinely pay anywhere from $10 to $20 for a complete Esquire from the war years... The $20 end is the rare price. I've never seen anything go over $25. (And yes, without the artwork the magazine can probably be had on order of $2-$5.) Yes, the prices will continue to rise and $75/issue complete is not an unrealistic picture... for the future. Keep an eye out for the entrepreneurs, though. While I certainly don't want to dissuade anyone from selling something at a good price, there are people out there who are buying whole Esquires, tearing out the Vargas and throwing away the rest of the magazine (literally) even with the Petty and other artwork in it! They will then try to sell the Vargas alone for anywhere from $25 to $50, advertising them as rare collectors finds of inserts. They only sell to people who think they are making a shrewd investment. It might be, but they're investing a lot more money than they need to right now (Why buy a $1 share of stock for $10? :-). Plus, the destruction of the rest of the magazine is so incomprehensible that I refuse to buy the artwork even if it's one I'm looking for (I do look for inserts that are not in the magazine -- I won't tear one out to frame and display one, and I need those too...) BTW: I am looking for a December, 1943 Esquire. This is a critical piece to our collection. We have the original art AND the original magazine, but not the two together. In any case, we need a second copy anyways, because the first copy gets heavily used for scanning, artwork master, etc. We need an archive copy that will never be damaged by accident. Either magazine, artwork or combined issue (preferred). Have one? > Robert: What does it cost to obtain either of the sets of > Vargas cards you mentioned, and how can I pursue getting them? The addresses recently posted work well. I've found the Series I cards available for $15/set from Faraday. There are also some individuals who will sell them for $10/set, if you can find them while they have a quantity on hand. :-) The Series II sets are still easily available. The quickest way to get a set is to buy a box. There are about 36 card sets in there and you're almost guaranteed to have at least one full set (sometimes two). The boxes run about $36 (the same as buying 36 packs of cards, so no real price break for ya there...) -- Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 11:48:00 CDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Roger Safian Subject: Reprinted U.S. Army in World War II Greetings, Since there seems to be a little intrest in this, I'll post to the net. You can order the series from: Museum Editions Limited The National Historical Society P.O. Box 975 Hicksville, N.Y. 11802-0975 The cost is $21.95 per book, and the total with shipping, etc is $27.71. The books are hardbound, printed on nice paper. The are not cloth covers, and look to have a lithograph on the front. They are a special 50th aniversary commemorative edition. I am not sure that they follow the green book series page for page. I don't have any of teh pacific books at home, but do own some of the europe set. I notice that these do not have any foldout maps. Does anyone have a copy of "The Fall of the Philippines"? This copy has 626 pages, 11 tables and 25 maps. It does not have any appendices. Does this sound like your copy? Roger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 00:57:21 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Combat Command A/B In-Reply-To: <9402221723.AA24694@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote: > Err Ladies and Gentlemen! > A quick question... > Could someone explain to a layman the rationale behind dividing > armoured regiments into CCA/CCB (and the differences between them) > in the US Army during WWII? >=20 > hope the question makes sense... The first U.S. Army Armored Divisions (I think nos. 1 though 3) had two=20 armored regiments and one armored infantry regiments (although the U.S.=20 did not have any APCs during WWII) each regiment having three battalions=20 of the appropriate type. These were found=20 to be too tank heavy and divisions organized latter had only three=20 armored and three armor infantry battalions. However, the regimental=20 headquarters were eliminated and replaced with three combat command=20 headquarters, CCA, CCB and CCR. These were assigned various combinations= =20 of battalions and companies from the armored and armored infantry=20 battalions, plus support units (engineers, recon, etc.) so that the=20 combat commands were tailored to their mission. Since battalions did=20 not "belong" to a regiment, there was nothing to inhibit shifting them=20 around. Essentially these combat commands were a formalization of the kampfgruppe= =20 system of the German Panzer divisions althou=AB=C0=AB=C0gh in the their cas= e units=20 were detached from and assigned to existing units, e.g. the panzer=20 regiment or the panzer grenadier regiments.=D0 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 10:47:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: Re: German POW in Texas For John Riegsecker (and others!): Your message, John, is a little vague on particulars: where in Texas; significance of a dictionary; etc. But I think it possible that there were POWs still there at that late date. It is also possible that the reference is not to a POW but to a civilian (German) internee. There were several camps for German civilian internees in Texas, the largest being a family camp at Crystal City (near Del Rio). The U.S. still held civilian internees as late as July 1948, though the ones I am personally familiar with were at Ellis Island by that time awaiting decisions re their possible deportation. But most of them came to Ellis Is. sometime in 1948 from the Crystal City camp. Hope this helps. ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 14:00:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: B-17 crew members I understand that late in WWII, some Eighth Air Force B-17s (and perhaps B-24s) operated with only 1 waist gunner because of the shortage of gunners. Since the Luftwaffe had been decimated by this time, it was felt that the risk was minimal. I believe the whole US Army was running short of replacements by the latter part of 1944 and early 1945. The brother of a girl I was dating 40 years ago was in pilot training and his whole class was pulled and shipped off to the infantry where he spent the rest of the war in the ETO. I think the casualties were higher than expected and this resulted in a shortage of men in most combat arms of the Army. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:01:38 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Fegelein's Execution 29 April 1945 > As everyone knows, Hitler ordered that he be shot at once when the SS found him > at his apartment and dragged him back the Chancellory Bunker. > > You would think that, since Eva Braun traveled to Berlin of her own free will > and volition, Hitler would spare her brother-in-law. I could list dozens of > names of people whom he perceived that he accounts to settle with. > > Any speculation as to why he was popped? > > Chuck Hi Chuck, Fegelein was summoned for a situation briefing after missing two in a row which he normally attended. Hitler asked where he was and a group of SS men went to his Berlin flat and discovered him completely drunk and in civilian clothes. A strikingly beautiful blond woman was in the apartment with him when the SS men arrived. She offered to make coffee while the SS men tried to gather up a belligerent Fegelein and sober him up. On the table the Gestapo man who led this group discovered a bag containing loose jewels, large sums of money in Swiss Franks, and British Pounds along with Reichmarks and three passports belonging to the woman in the room with him. One passport was Czech, one British and one German. I don't recall if Fegelein had documents there too. All this was gathered up by a *now* suspicious (!) Gestapo man and Fegelein and this material was taken to the Fuhrerbunker. The woman, who went to make coffee had ducked out the kitchen window and was never heard from again. Based on that evidence Fegelein was taken, stripped of his decorations and rank insignias taken to the courtyard and shot. He held the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross and had won a number of combat awards. He was an SS Gruppenfuhrer and commanded the SS Cavalry Division "Florian Geyer". They shot him because they figured he was fixin to bug out. But what about the woman? Turns out she was the wife of the Czech ambassador in Berlin. She was fluent in Czech, German and English. She had been companions with Goebbles, Hess, Goring and other highly placed Nazis in Hitler's inner circle. She was a British national who had married the Czech ambassador some time earlier before the war. It has been said that she was the highest placed spy in service of the British Secret Service (I bet so!). She managed a way out of Berlin (while surrounded by the Russians) and made it back to England where she lived in secret. She may still be living there. This spy was the one that Hitler insisted existed and even named "Das Leck" (the leak). She was never caught. On Fegelein's marriage to Eva Braun's sister Gretl (or Greta), she managed to get herself pregnant through her rather liberal lifestyle and rather than create a scandal, Hitler suggested to a fine young *single* SS General and war hero, Hermann Fegelein, that wouldn't it be nice if.... Befehl ist befehl! This is from the book _The Bunker_ by MacDonald(?). He was the first American inside the Fuhrerbunker and interviewed all the survivors of the bunker's capture. He was a US Army intelligence officer sent to Berlin to find out what happened to Hitler in May 1945. Neat book! Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:12:57 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in 43? > As I said earlier even if the Germans where willing to settle (which > is highly doubtfull) Hitler would not have agreed. Stalin would not > have been willing to accept any loss of land. Hitler would not have > accepted anything less than total victory. This is the reason that even > if there where negotiations the two personalities would not have agreed. > The only negotiation Hitler could have accepted would be a surrender. > And anyone knowing Russian history would know that this would never happen. > The Russians where not completely defeated at that pointr in time. > > Joseph M. E. Wolm I agree with Joseph that it never would have happened. I think we are forgetting that Operation Barbarossa was nothing short of Pearl Harbor for the Soviet Union. Hitler and Stalin had a deal back in '39. Do you really think the Russians would be stupid enough to enter into another deal with Hitler or that Hitler was stupid enough to believe the Russians would go for it? I don't *think* so. Homey don't play that! :-) Still snickering, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 14:31:23 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations If you are interested in a little more on the battle, I can suggest: THE MONASTERY THE BATTLE OF CASSINO Both by Fred Majdalany. He was "there" as an infantry officer, and is also a very good writer. Regards. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 11:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Dennis E. Sparks" Subject: P-38 crew weight, etc. Regarding the comment on the listed crew weight on a P-38 and B-17.... Stan, that's gotta be either a typo or a smudge on the photo. The listed crew weight painted on the side of a B-17 was indeed 2000 lbs, or 200 lbs per crew member. But for a P-38 it's 200 lbs. (two-seat P-38s excepted). (The following is a monologue on P-38s that should only be read by people who *really* like such things.) By the way, the worst of the P-38's problems in Europe were related to the extreme cold at altitude. Almost no testing was done stateside at altitudes above 20,000 feet. When the aircraft arrived in England and were asked to routinely fly 5-10 thousand feet higher, the cold did them in. Earlier models of the P-38 had hydraulic supercharger controls that froze, and inadequate cockpit heating. After long missions, the pilots often had to be helped out of the cockpit, as they were almost frozen stiff. Also, the early models had an interesting intercooler system to cool the carburetor intake air after supercharging. Compressed (hot) air from the supercharger was routed along the wing leading edge out to the wingtip and back, allowing it to cool. If the engine backfired, the leading edge was often distorted. Combat damage to the LE could also cause an air leak in the ductwork, robbing the engine of power. As engine power increased on successive versions, the LE intercooler became inadequate for the task. Beginning with the P-38J model, the intercooler was relocated to underneath the spinner, producing the characteristic "chin" of the later models. Pneumatic controls were substituted for the hydraulic controls with the "J", plus a pair of flaps in the middle of the undersides of the outer wing panels to counter compressibility problems. These improvements made the P-38 a much more capable aircraft, but too late for the 8th AF. The 8th had only four P-38 groups, and these groups traded the Lightning in for P-51s as they became available, with the last P-38s leaving the 8th c. Oct 44. Of fifteen fighter groups in the 8th AF, fourteen ended the war flying P-51s, with only the 56th FG (Zemke's Wolfpack) retaining their beloved Thunderbolts. As for using the P-38 as a bomber, that's just what the 9th AF and 12th/15th AF did with them. As other fighters became available, the P-38s became attack aircraft, capable of carrying a sizeable external load. It was used frequently as a dive bomber, at which it proved adept. Because the P-38 was so streamlined, pilots were cautioned to initiate their dive at altitudes of 15,000 feet or greater to allow sufficient altitude to pull out of the dive. Dennis E. Sparks sparks@caer.uky.edu Lexington, Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:45:24 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: German POW > I'm asking this question for my brother. A German friend showed my > brother a dictionary his father had bought while a POW in Texas. What > caught my brother's eye is that it was dated 1948. Did we still have > German POWs in 1948? Would these have been "ordinary" POW or only the > more sinister? My bother decided not to pursue that line of > questioning with his friend. Any help would be appreciated. > > John Riegsecker > Riegsecker@ups.edu Hi John, I have seen graves of German POWs that died in 47 and 48 so I know the sick/wounded ones were here that long. There are some books about German POWs in America that do a great job. Look up POWs, German, in the subject section of a library card catalog. I have read three books on the subject and can only remember the title to one _The Killing of Corpral Kunze_ but there are others about the camps and prisoners that would cover what you are looking for. It took a while to sort things out in Germany after the war too. We repatriated our POWs quite a while before the Russians did and a lot more of ours survived too. It was more important to bring home our boys than to ship out a bunch of POWs at that time. Ships were limited thanks to the U-boot waffe. Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 18:31:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: Addr: SOC.HISTORY.WAR In-Reply-To: <9402221714.AA02832@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "RICHARD KING" at Feb 22, 94 8:41 am > > Dumb question here, but why form a new WWII list if we already > have a terrific list here? Soc.histoary.war.* are newsgroups, not mailing lists. They travel on the Usenet circuit and have a potential audience of 12,000,000 people. WWII-L will not be superceded. The soc. groups are being formed to dodge a blitz of posting by a select group of loonies who post megabytes of drivel on their pet topic. I was assured that WWII-L would suffer the same fate but those of you have seen me in a cranky mood can attest to the unlikelihood (is that a word?) of that happening. > Are there some people who can't get > WWII-L? And can I sign on to lists that begin "soc?" Contact your wizards to see if you site gets the Usenet newsgroups. Purdue is a main hub and we move 15 meg of "news" a day through here. A *major* load on the resources! Think of Usenet as a cocktail party/frat party in a museum/library and you have an idea of the happy chaos that goes on there. > Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) > Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 15:57:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: POL: Conquering the Neutrals My students have an unrelenting desire to know why Germany did not invade Switzerland and Sweden. They tend to believe that Hitler was "crazy" not to do it, and that he surely intended to later. They cite the remarks of the author of our text, Michael Lyons (_World War II: A Short History_), who says re Sweden, that if Hitler had won the war, "it seemms likely that it, too, would have disapeared into the Nazi empire"; and re Switzerland, "it appears that he intended...to annex at least the German-speaking areas after the war" (125-26). Well, maybe so, but this all sounds pretty "iffy" and speculative. Does anyone know what evidence exists to support either of these claims? Or is it just that it seems "logical"? ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 19:26:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Combat Command A/B Steve, are you sure you mean dividing armored regiments and not armored divisions? The two main combat commands A and B were kind of like task forces that could be altered in composition to suit the mission. They were composed of several of the infantry and tank battalions, usually the same ones, but not always, and with someartillery etc. If you need a full study of it I can send bibliography for references. JOhn Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 18:30:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: MEDIA: Buying "Fatal Attraction" The A&E network has been replaying a two-part film about Hitler's "fatal attraction" for the German people (part of the Biography series, I believe). I think the film goes by the title of "Fatal Attraction." I'm interested in buying a copy from A&E. Does anyone know an address that would be appropriate for such a request? What do others think of this film? I was impressed with the way in which Part 1 dealt with Hitler's early life and career. I thought the film made certain of the influences on Hitler more clear than other films. ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 02:55:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Addr: SOC.HISTOR... sounds nice Larry, Actually I think you are doing a terrific job with this list. Unfortunately I don't have access to newsgroups, so will be limited to what I have now. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:11:08 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Combat Command A/B > Steve, > are you sure you mean dividing armored regiments and not armored divisions? > The two main combat commands A and B were kind of like task forces that could > be altered in composition to suit the mission. They were composed of several > of the infantry and tank battalions, usually the same ones, but not always, > and with someartillery etc. If you need a full study of it I can send > bibliography for references. JOhn Sloan Hi John! Yes. I reckon I mean divisions. It is a general enquiry (I am not engaged in lots of study on it) due to my participation in a Board Game (Battle of the Bulge) as a result of which I went out and bought/read a book by the same title by Charles MacDonald. The assumption is that the readers are conversant with the component parts that make up a fighting force. This is sadly not the case with me... regards steve baldwin ********************************************************************** InternetBall 'Again, my regrets to Peter Morris and David Jay (and further apologies for any mis-spelled names! :-) for not being able to include your actual comments herein...I hope I have indirectly and unintentially "mis-quoted" you.' ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 07:30:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: soc.history.moderated passes! FYI: Moderated group soc.history.moderated passes 306:23 There were 306 YES votes and 23 NO votes, for a total of 329 valid votes. There were 2 abstains and 7 invalid ballots. For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes. There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter. Voting closed at 23:59:59 GMT, 22 February 1994. This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Vote-taker's address: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu Group proponent's address: traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov Newsgroups line: soc.history.moderated Historical discussions on any historically-relevant topic (moderated). CHARTER (as printed in the Call for Votes) Title: soc.history.moderated This will be a moderated group. Moderators: Volunteers are very much still encouraged. Preliminary names include the following: Todd McComb (mccombtm@netcom.com) David Morton (gt2692@prism.gatech.edu) Richard Miller (rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu) Lance Visser (visser@dhostwo.convex.com) Laura Mollett (Art History) (lcmoll00@aix3090b.uky.edu) Jason Esser (BA History) (esse0002@gold.tc.umn.edu) Gary Hewitt (glhewitt@phoenix.princeton.edu) Laura Burchard (lhb@vnet.ibm.com) Stephen Graham (graham@cs.washington.edu) Stephen Balbach (?) (BA History) (stephen@clark.net) Matthew Mckenzie (mmckenzi@uga.cc.uga.edu) Mike Traynor (traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov) More help would be appreciated. Charter: The group will allow a free-flowing discussion of historical events and trends of _general_ intrest to the Usenet history devotees. If desired later, this group will allow for subgroup formation into seperate historical periods and topics. The moderator will have broad powers to determine what topics are of general interest. A non-exclusive list of post characteristics the moderator can use to determine the acceptance or rejection of a post for general posting in the group are: o ad-hominem attacks o flames o pathological cross-postings for a given posts (for example, cross-postings to/from groups that bear little relation to the nature of the post) o use of inappropriate vulgarisms in a post o general tastlessness in a post o a non-replyable e-mail address If the moderator so desires, she/he will respond to a rejected post stating the reasons for rejection, and if she/he so desires, suggesting modifications that will allow a modified post into the group. Lively, animated discussions on historical events or topics where there is genuine controversy, or where there is general consensus, are encouraged. Requests for information are also encouraged. Moderated group soc.history.moderated Final Vote Ack Voted Yes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ aaronrp@netcom.com Aaron Priven ACS_MIKE@VAX1 Mike Grethen [list deleted] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 07:35:43 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: Notes from D.C. trip ( & now Olympic Coverage) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Feb 94 07:06:54 -0800. <9402221840.AA13251@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > My family and I just spent the weekend being tourists in Washington D.C. > and I thought I'd pass on several items of interest to this list: You picked a great weekend. It is now snowing & raining again. > > The Air & Space Museum has a new display: "Air Power In WWII". The first > place they highlighted was the P-47 Thunderbolt; I just missed that one, > but they now have the only existing German Arado 234 jet bomber, > beautifully restored. I wasn't aware that this 2 engine bomber was > active in recon missions in 1944. Relying on speed, it carried no > defensive armament and onyl one crew member. It's bombload was limited > to one externally mounted 500 or 1000 lb. bomb. The video with the > display made the point that even though the Arado was able to bring back > quality recon photos of Allied positions, by that time in '44 the German > Army in France had too few resources to take advantage. Also at the Smithsonian, In the Museum of American History , is an exhibit 'The Information Age' They have an exhibit on Enigma including a Bombe used to decrypt Enigma; A display including a newseel on US Navy CIC (Combat Information Center) and part of the Eniac. They also had a lot of other later computer stuff that is guarentted to make you feel OLD ( Dad did you actually work on one of THOSE???) There is also an exhibit on the Japanese-Americans in WW2 and it looks like the 'Armed Forces' section is tailored to WW2 right now along with the exhibit of items left at the Vietnam Veterns Memorial, an interesting and heart wrenching display in itself. Does anyone else sort of listen in to other self appointed tour guides at museums? I will admit to it and the misinformation is ridiculous. I overheard a couple of them Sunday. I mainly overhear them at Civial War Battlefield in the area ( Gettysburg Antitiem, Monacacy) and will then sometimes if it gets to bad try to politely jump in. ( I volunteer at Monacacy sometimes also) Listening to one guy explain how the ship models was tough yesterday but I bit my tongue and let him go ( He was describing how Liberty ships were built so that after one trip to England they were dismantled and used for other things. According to him the Deck Houses became control Towers for air fields, some of the steel was used by British factories to produce tanks and planes) > > The Washington Post for Monday 2/21/94 had a fascinating article about > the "Return to Normandy Association". Over 30 of the *original* > 82nd/101st paratroopers who dropped on D-Day are going to recreate the > drop on June 6 1994 in Normandy; some of these guys are in their 80's! > The Pentagon and US gov't wants nothing to do with this; they're dropping > under the auspices of the French gov't, which asked that each man do 3 > qualifying drops before coming to Normandy; that was the occassion for > this article. Each man profiled was fascinating. Say a news story over the weekend on some of these guys jumping in Southern Cal (San Diego?) They were going out in what looked like static line in some kind of double harness with an instructor. The jump plane was a single engine (Cessna?) I can't remember if it was on CNN/Headline News or a network. Also did anyone else see the insert on the Tellmark raids on CBS Olympic coverage last night? I saw most of it and what I saw seemed good at least from the 'up close and personal' viewpoint. They were saying it was 50 years ago this week. That is somewhat ironic. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 07:51:04 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: removing B-17 chin turrets In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 21 Feb 1994 18:49:15 -0500 from On Mon, 21 Feb 1994 18:49:15 -0500 Stan Koper said: >I'm reading Fred Koger's _Countdown! Thirty-Five Missions >Against Nazi Germany_. Koger was a bombardier with the 326th >squadron, 92nd Bomb Group, flying B-17G's. He mentions flying >with a nine-man crew, one waist gunner instead of two, supposedly >because two waist gunners got in each other's way. Perhaps. The most recent National Geographic on the 8th AF attributes this instead to chronic crew shortages by late '44-early '45. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:13:13 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2 From: Kurt Luginbyhl Subject: MEDIA: Buying "Fatal Attraction" In-Reply-To: note of 02/23/94 05:22 Steve, To get any cable station's number just call your local cable service you better know they would have to be able to contact the channel host of your choice. My TV Guide (Washington Post) frequently prints the address and tel #s of the local stations and cable providers. Good Luck. Do you know about the tel directory or 800 numbers? 800 555 1212. H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl Scientific Computer Specialist National Museum of Natural History Washington D.C. 20560 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:55:01 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: What If Has anyone discussed the what Europe might have become (then & today) if Hitler defeated England in those dark days of 1941 (if he had wiped-out the British troops @ Dunkirk & kept going, for example; or later if he had not soured on the Luftwaffe [sp?]). I know there is a movie depicting a Nazi USA that came-out not to long ago, but that is to me completely unplausable; suppose a truce between America & Germany were made. Just a thought. Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:29:37 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: German POWs in Texas There was a POW camp adjacent to Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio. In 1946 or 47 or thereabouts -- my pre-teen memories are fading -- a German POW, under very loose guard, carried groceries to our car from the Ft Sam commissary. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Conquering neutrals RE: Sweden. During 1940, Sweden allowed Germany to use its railways and coastal waters to transport troops and materiel to Norway and then Finland. By 1941 and the attack on USSR, Germany put additional pressure on the Swedes for transport rights through Sweden to Finland (the latter was allied with Germany against the Soviets). When the war began to turn against Germany, Sweden hardened her attitude and began to favor the Allies. RE: Switzerland. I seem to remember that Hitler had contingency plans for an invasion, though his military advisors knew it would a difficult thing to do because of Swiss plans to resist (which included blowing up the Alpine railway tunnels. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:18:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: POL: Conquering the Neutrals In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Fox" at Feb 22, 94 03:57:00 pm Stephen Fox writes: |-> |-> My students have an unrelenting desire to know why Germany did |-> not invade Switzerland and Sweden. They tend to believe that |-> Hitler was "crazy" not to do it, and that he surely intended to later. Mary and I have friends in Zurich. We visited there once and stayed with their parents. The father was in the Swiss air force during WWII. We talked quite a bit about Switzerland and Germany during WWII. My friend's father was adamant in saying that Hitler did not invade because his generals strongly advised against it, i.e. the Swiss defenses were too difficult. I personally feel that Switzerland and Sweden were quite valuable to Germany as independent states. Sweden was fairly cooperative and offered some direct benefits. The benefits of an independent Switzerland were more subtle, but real. They provided an avenue of diplomatic contact and could act as they do often in the opposition's territority. Another possible explanation for the lack of an attack on Der Schweiz is that Schwiezer Deutsch was just too tough for the average German speaker. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: Re: soc.history.moderated passes Larry Jewell writes: > Think of Usenet as a cocktail party/frat party in a museum/library and you > have an idea of the happy chaos that goes on there. This reminded me of a "Natural Law of Usenet" that was posted a while back. Enjoy. "Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Booker, get me my uniform! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:16:52 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "William B. Thacker" Subject: Re: POL: Conquering the Neutrals In-Reply-To: ; from "Stephen Fox" at Feb 22, 94 3:57 pm Stephen Fox writes: > My students have an unrelenting desire to know why Germany did > not invade Switzerland and Sweden. They tend to believe that > Hitler was "crazy" not to do it, and that he surely intended to later. While Hitler gives the appearance of grabbing up every nation he could, I don't think that's a good analysis of his behavior. For the most part, Germany's conquests tried to follow a strategic pattern. Invading Poland (and partnering with Russia) redressed Germany's grievance over the Versailles treaty. Whether Hitler intended to stop at this is uncertain; the Allies declared war, and having partnered with Russia Germany was perfectly poised for a single-front war against France. This required invading the Benelux countries for maneuvering room. Denmark was of strategic importance in the sense that it couldn't be left as an undefended invasion point for the Allies and was critical to shipping lanes. It's worth noting that France was allowed to remain independent (Vichy France) under terms favorable to Germany; Germany could have simply occupied the entire country. This illustrates the point that Hitler only sought to conquer and occupy when it was necessary. The Norway invasion was a reflex. Hitler became angry because German shipping was being intercepted in Norway's neutral waters by British warships. Rather like Denmark, then, his reasoning was that if the Norwegians couldn't defend their neutrality, Germany had to do the defending by conquering the nation and putting their own troops there. Sweden, at this point, became surrounded. She preserved her neutrality, and even thwarted German desires in some cases, but was still forced to do what Germany really wanted her to do: ship iron ore. The Germans could not have improved on this by invading. Too, Sweden's armed forces were not inconsiderable; it would have been expensive to conquer them. As for Switzerland, they too had the ability to make conquest expensive. But more pointedly, they controlled the railway tunnels through the Alps, and made it clear that they were prepared to demolish those tunnels in event of invasion. Any possible returns from conquering the Swiss could not measure up against the setback of losing those tunnels even for a few months, effectively severing the link from Germany to Italy. The author of your text is probably right; if Germany had won the war, both Switzerland and Sweden would have been absorbed, economically if not militarily, into the Reich. But if one sees the invasion of Norway as an unplanned "accident," it is obvious that Hitler had no long-planned schemes to conquer Sweden. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Thacker AT&T Network Systems attmail!att!cbemf!wbt (614) 860-5294 Columbus, Ohio wbt@cbemf.att.com Humpty Dumpty was pushed! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:38:54 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals > RE: Sweden. During 1940, Sweden allowed Germany to use its railways and > coastal waters to transport troops and materiel to Norway and then Finland. I also believe that Sweden exported iron ore to Germany... smb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: POL: Conquering the Neutrals In-Reply-To: On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Stephen Fox wrote: > My students have an unrelenting desire to know why Germany did > not invade Switzerland and Sweden. They tend to believe that > Hitler was "crazy" not to do it, and that he surely intended to later. You can never tell what Hitler planned to do "after the war". I don't think he probably knew. None of his plans were that well thought out (with the exception of the Holocaust if you follow the Davidowicz (sp?) intentionalist argument. I think, however, that Hitler would have been "crazy" to try and take sSwitzerland and Sweden during the regular war time. Sweden could probably have been taken by the Nazis without a huge fight, but they were already allowing the passage of German troops through their country (albeit with the curtains on the train shut), and supplying the 3rd Reich with coal etc. There was no real need to conquer them. Switzerland, on the other hand, would have beeen a right pain in the a** to conquer, and would have hung up many valuable resources for a long time. Furthermore, there wasn't anything in Switzerland that was too crucial to the war effort. As for after the war? I don't know. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:47:38 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: OBITUARIES In todays obituaries in the New York Times: Gen. Johannes Steinhoff, 80 As a highly decorated avaitor, Steinhoff was credited with 176 aircraft downed over North Africa, Sicily, Russia, and Germany itself. He was shot 12 times and severly injured in an Me-262 accident which resulted in a permanent disfigurement of his face. In 1952 he rejoined the German Air Force, ending up commanding it in 1966. He retired from NATO command in 1974. Read Adm. Richard O'Kane, 83 The Medal of Honor winner was the commander of the Tang, responsible for over 110,000 tonm of Japanese shipping and scores of American avaitors rescued from hostile waters. The Tang was sunk by one of her own malfunctiong torpedoes, killing all but 9 of her 87 member crew. O'Kane authored "Clear the Bridge" in 1977 and "Wahoo" in 1987. Ron Babuka ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: What If In-Reply-To: Try reading _SS-- GB_ by Len Deighton or _Fatherland_ by Harris (I think). Both present a somewhat plausable answer to "What If" the Germans had won the war. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:07:57 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Subject: Re: OBITUARIES In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:47:38 EST from I am sorry to hear of the passing of ADM O'Kane. I read his stuff some years ago. Well written. There was a member of the crew of USS Walke (DD-723) in the 1960s who said he was on the Tang. He was a torpedoman who transferred aboard from submarine command for his last year of duty prior to retirement. I cannot remember his name at the present but I recall he made chief E-7 prior to retirement. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:15:32 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: What If In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:55:01 EST from On Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:55:01 EST Aldo said: >Has anyone discussed the what Europe might have become (then & today) >if Hitler defeated England in those dark days of 1941 (if he had >wiped-out the British troops @ Dunkirk & kept going, for example; >or later if he had not soured on the Luftwaffe [sp?]). I Len Deighton's =SS-GB= (or is it =GB-SS=? (-: ) describes a policeman in just such a Britain, I think several decades later. Phillip K. Dick's =The Man in the High Castle= describes a defeated America split up between Japan and Germany in the early '60s. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:57:55 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael P LaForge Subject: Pow's The POW camp at Camp Fannin TX was established as a POW Branch camp on 21 Sep 1943 and inactivated on 10 May 1946. Most were Afrika Korps captured after Kasserine I would be intrested in any information on the following two locations: Duck Target Facility, Notrh Carolina Camp Davis North Carolina Please reply personally - this is a very active net. thank you ******************************************************************************* Mike LaForge, QASAS USADACS,USATCES,ESL,DERP-FUDS EMAIL: mlaforge@savanna-emh1.army.mil DSN: 585-8762 COMM: 815-273-8762 IN PARTIBUS INFIDELIUM ******************************************************************************* ZZ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:25:50 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German POW There were a great number if German PSs held in Canada, too. Many stayed on for a couple of years after VE-Day. There's a poignant aside to the issue of German PWs in USA. During WW2, a letter published in YANK (the American services newspaper) caused a lot of indignation. A black corporal wrote in to describe an incident at a railroad station in Louisiana. A number of black soldiers in uniform en route to overseas went into the station restaurant to buy cups of coffee, but were only allowed to stand in the kitchen. The letter went on "... About two dozen German prisoners of war withtwo American guards entered the lunch-room; sat at tables, had their meals served, smokes, in fact had a swell time. I stood on the outside, looking in, and I could not help but ask myself -- what is the negro soldier fighting for?" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:08:05 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: What If A less speculative description than Deighton's of what would have heppened to Britain if Hitler had won the war is clearly set out in the German war plans catured in 1945. The most significant factor was the Nazi's planned deportation of all British males over the age of 16 to Germany. The intention was for British youths, under 16, to be inculcated with Nazi ideology. These contingency plans for a conquored nation were freely quoted in the British press in 1945. Skeptics now coupld probably find the relevant papers in the captured Axis materials collection in Washington. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:15:03 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals The feisty Swiss showed how hard a nut they would be to crack, on a few occasions. Twice, the Swiss Air Force fought air-combats against the Luftwaffe, and won both times. One flight of Messerschmidtts went off course, flew over Swizz airspace, and ignored warning to bugger off. So, the Swiss sent fighters up and shot down a few Luftwaffe planes (the number six comes to memory). This incient was written up in AFTER THE BATTLE MAGAZINE, as I remember. More knowledgeable others here will no doubt fill in the details. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:42:07 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German POWs in Texas After 1942, in Britain, it was a common sight to see German and Italian prisoners of war strolling about the street on their own. PWs were very fond of the movies, and as I recall their "night out at the pictures" was Fridays. PWs in the UK were employed on farms, the ones who had proven they knew how to behave themselves. 'Quite a common sight, and no-one paid much attention to them after a while. They wore British army battledress, died dark brown, with a large black diamond sewn on the back of the tunic. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:44:45 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Bialek Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 21 Feb 1994 to 22 Feb 1994 The combat commands were the American equivalent of the German kampfgruppe used by the panzer divisions but with a fixed organization. There was also if memory serves, a cc/r for reserve. During the course of the European campaign these commands evolved into more or less equal task forces with approx. one tank, one armored inf. and one armored feild arty battalion each. In theoryat least a very flexible organization. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:02:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: What If Further, if you DO want to consider the possibility of an Axis conquest of the U.S., take a look at an old novel by Philip K. Dick, THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE. It's a mixture of speculation and fantasy (literary fantasy, that is). Justin Gustainis Department of Communication SUNY-Plattsburgh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:43:02 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals In-Reply-To: from "Sidney Allinson" at Feb 23, 94 11:15:03 am Sidney Allinson writes: |-> |-> The feisty Swiss showed how hard a nut they would be to crack, on a few |-> occasions. |-> Twice, the Swiss Air Force fought air-combats against the Luftwaffe, and |-> won both times. One flight of Messerschmidtts went off course, flew over |-> Swizz airspace, and ignored warning to bugger off. |-> So, the Swiss sent fighters up and shot down a few Luftwaffe planes (the |-> number six comes to memory). This incient was written up in AFTER THE |-> BATTLE MAGAZINE, as I remember. |-> More knowledgeable others here will no doubt fill in the details. The Swiss were busy intercepting Allied flights as well. The ex-Swiss air force guy I know in Zurich tells a story about getting mad as hell once. He was up on an intercept of a US plane. The pilot did not follow instructions to quickly get out of Swiss air space. I'm not sure what Swiss aircraft were involved but in arming his weapons my friend got in a hurry and accidentally smashed his watch. He was so mad he wanted to shoot the American down immediately. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:46:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: RFD: soc.history.reenactment Yo, Tim! REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION soc.history.reenactment PURPOSE OF GROUP The group is intended as an information and discussion centre for re-enactment groups of all periods to advertise their group, swap ideas on specific periods and to give lists of show dates interested people may want to attend. Some newsgroups contain a little re-enactment based traffic, but as far as i know, there is no group which deals with the topic exclusively. This post is intended as a `test of the water' and for people to post me with ideas for charter and moderation. If i receive any feedback from this i will collate it into a second request for discussion with more information. Please use the news.groups channel for open discussion articles. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:17:34 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Max C." Subject: Japanese America Bomber After the Doolittle raid the Japanese started to work in earnest on the design of a bomber large enough to reach the United States directly from the home islands. I think that Nakajima was the firm...and the design was quite impressive with four or six engines.... Does anybody know the full designation of this airplane and where I can get additional facts? Has a "detail and scale" type of publication come out on this design? About a year ago, a British aviation magazine featured a fanciful painting of a P-51 attacking one of these bombers over the Golden Gate at San Francisco (kind of a nice "what if" touch)...does anybody have a citation for this article? Any help will be regarded with the utmost appreciation! Max C. Calderwood University of Southern Maine Gorham, ME MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:32:48 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: German POWs in Texas > There was a POW camp adjacent to Ft Sam Houston in San Antonio. In 1946 or 47 > or thereabouts -- my pre-teen memories are fading -- a German POW, under very > loose guard, carried groceries to our car from the Ft Sam commissary. > > -- Warren Thompson Its the Ft. Sam National Cemetary that I saw the POW graves I mentioned yesterday. Small world.... German POWs were pretty well trusted not to run off later in the war and often were just dropped off at farms to work for the day and collected that evening. Where were they gonna go? Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:45:15 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals Interesting story, about your Swiss friend's encounter with the USAAF. But, you notice, he did not actually shoot at the American 'plane. In wartime Switzerland, as elsewhere, different stroke for different ... volk. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 15:41:07 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: What If In-Reply-To: <9402231843.AA13580@agaviion.agfx.com> Okay, here's some more What Ifs: WHAT IF there was no Holocaust or concentration camp system? How many more German soldiers (Jewish and non-Jewish) would have been available for combat duty? What other resources (rolling stock) could have been released for the war effort? Could this have made any difference in the outcome of the war, or is the scenario of a Nazi Germany without mass murder just too implausible? WHAT IF Hitler had formed allied buffer states in the eastern USSR and "liberated" Russians, Ukranians, etc. from Stalin? Would there have been large numbers of volunteers and fewer German troops needed for security? Would it have made any difference? These scenarios are implausbile becuase they assume rational thought and logical on the part of Hitler and the Nazis; still, it's interesting to conjecture... Any other favorite What Ifs out there? *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:56:24 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Request for INformation I recently found the following comparative costs in the United States Air Force Museum booklet, Wright Patterson AFB Ohio 45433 and I find them quite interesting: Can anyone confirm these figures? If they are true, can anyone explain why the B-26 was so expensive compared with the B-25? B-25: $96,000 B-26: $227,000 B-17: $276,000 B-24: $336,000 B-29: $639,000 ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 01:03:30 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: Japanese America Bomber On Wed, 23 Feb 1994, Max C. wrote: > After the Doolittle raid the Japanese started to work in earnest on the > design of a bomber large enough to reach the United States directly from > the home islands. I think that Nakajima was the firm...and the design > was quite impressive with four or six engines.... There were several Japanese designs for long-range bombers capable of attacking the U.S. mainland. The six-engined design was the Nakajime G10N Fugaku. It had six 2000hp engines and carried 5000kg of bombs; that is all I know about it. It was never flown. Other long-range bombers were the four-engined Nakajima G8N Renzan 'Rita' and the twin-engined Tachikawa Ki.74 'Patsy'. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 18:53:28 EST Reply-To: HistOwnr - Discussion list for owners of history-related lists Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: To: histownr@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Comments: cc: history@umrvmb.bitnet Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was HISTOWNR@UBVM From: Bayla Singer Subject: NASA Historian Summer Fellowship Posted at the request of Roger Launias, confessed neophyte :-) -- if there are other lists of folks who would/might be interested, please feel free to repost appropriately. Roger didn't give his email address in the body of the message, but it's right there in the headers. ----- From: "Launius, Roger" To: "Singer, Bayla" Subject: NASA Historian Summer Fellowship Date: Wed, 23 Feb 94 15:47:00 PST Message-ID: <2D6BEB69@ms.hq.nasa.gov> _________________________________________________________________________ NASA SUMMER FELLOWSHIP OPPORTUNITY FOR AEROSPACE HISTORIANS The Goddard Space Flight Center is prepared to award one summer faculty fellowship to a historian to work on document collection, oral histories, and other preparations necessary for the writing of a history of the Earth Observing System project presently underway at Goddard. For further information interested persons should contact Roger D. Launius, NASA History Office, Code ICH, NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC 20546, telephone 202-358- 0384, as soon as possible. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:25:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Julie Jenkins Subject: Information on a book I have noticed that people will offer opinions about books they have come across. I was looking for something else & found a book by Christopher Duffy, RED STORM ON THE REICH, that I read because it was somewhat about what I was really looking for. A very interesting book, w/a unique perspective. If any pro out there has either read or heard of this book, I would be interested to learn what h/she thinks. This is a good list so far; at least for an ignoramus like me. The Casino ex- change was worth logging on--I kept thinking of the Italian film OPEN CITY & re membering the deserter who hanged himself. Have any of you ever seen OPEN CITY ? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 02:56:04 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Command Structures I would appreciate help putting together a readings list. The subject is the Military Command Structures of the primary powers in World War II. Any ideas concerning such a subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks ahead of time, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 21:20:00 LCL Reply-To: Jeff Olson Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jeff Olson Organization: Ky/In PC User's Group - Louisville, KY - 502-423-8654 Subject: GEN unusual tactics . I read recently of a mission by the 5th AF to attempt to "bury" Rabaul by bombing one of the active volcanos surrounding the city thereby triggering a volcanic eruption. A B-17 dropped two 2,000 pound bombs with 45 second delays to allow for deep penetration of the volcano. The planners were so sure this would be successful, they waited 15 minutes for all other aircraft to leave the area so they wouldn't be caught in the mother of all explosions! Needless to say...a flop. Anyone else have any similar stories of individual missions that, at least in hindsight, had no chance of success? Use of weapons for missions they were not designed for, etc.? --- . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:28:07 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals In-Reply-To: from "Sidney Allinson" at Feb 23, 94 02:45:15 pm Sidney Allinson writes: |-> |-> Interesting story, about your Swiss friend's encounter with the USAAF. |-> But, you notice, he did not actually shoot at the American 'plane. |-> In wartime Switzerland, as elsewhere, different stroke for different |-> ... volk. :-) My message followed one about actual Swiss vs. Luftwaffe engagements. I didn't say specifically, but meant to imply that I don't know of any such vs. the Allies. The incident I described was "border keeping". The Swiss scrambled to prevent violation of air space and monitor wounded planes ditching in Der Schweiz. If anyone knows of Swiss vs. Allied engagements, I'd like to hear about it. However, I don't think the Swiss actually wanted to shoot at Allied aircraft, rather they wanted to preserve their neutrality and sovereignty. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:56:19 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Why I Detest Ike I do not believe Eisenhower to be a man of character or integrity. Rather than start with his war failings, I would prefer to start *BACKWARDS* with his first run for President in 1952. America has never had a finer General than in personage of General Marshall, and it was General Marshall who took *MAJOR* Eisenhower under his wing in 1939. The rest, thanks to Marshall alone, is history. FDR gave Ike his job because of Ike's political acumen. Period. He was no grand tactician. To suggest othewise is foolish and not borne out by the facts. But I digress. During a campaign speech, Eisenhower, SHOCKINGLY, allowed that filthy slimeball Sen. Macarthy to actually *ATTACK* the integrity of General Marshall and insinuate that Marshall may have communist leanings. Ike sat in his chair and did NOTHING. This is an established historical fact ladies and gentleman. I apologize for getting off subject, but back to WW2 in just a second. Ike owed his enitre career to General Marshall. Period. End of discussion. Marshall made him a staff officer. Marshall bought him to the attention of FDR. Marshall recognized the importance (although I could care a less and would not have made it a priority at all) of "appeasing" the Russians with a General who would and could calm down Russian concern over a separate peace. Back to World War II. . . My favorite general (I know, I'm an American and shouldn't be saying this) is British. Monty always knew what he was talking about. The problem is that with the exception of Churchill from time-to-time, no one would listen to him or his future predictions, *ALL* of which later came to pass. In addition, Monty, with very good reason, hated Ike because the latter had not, what's the saying, "paid his dues?" I agree. What do you think - did Ike pay his dues? Remember, he was a major in 1939. You must decide for yourself. Monty knew the Allies could take Berlin as Hitler's orders were virtually being ignored and they (the Allies) pored through the Western Front after the Ardennes with little difficulty. Finally, in a rage (his first one), Ike snapped, "I'm commander in chief, not you, and you shall follow my orders." Monty left seething, but, being the good officer he was, he did obey his orders. Monty sould have been Commander in Chief. If he had, we (e.g. the Americans and British and I omit the French as they did nothing of any importance and therefore do not deserve to be described as a "victor") would have taken Berlin first just as Monty said. Furthermore, Churchill had to deal with the nettlesome question of what to do with the question of the Polish government in exile. After all, this was the *VERY* reason the United Kingdom officially weant to war to begin with. Stalin, as we all know, established his puppet government at Lublin. Monty and Patton were horrified. Interestingly, Hitler's political radar was still working at the end of the war when he said that his "unholy alliance contradicts the laws of nature and will not last." Unfortunately for him (Hitler), the wrong Tsarina died. Churchill did what he could to help Monty but was again (although far more tactfully) overruled by Ike who insisted that Berlin was not a major strategic target. B.S!!!!!!!!!! It was the whole ballgame. Stalin knew it. Churchill knew it. Monty knew it. Patton knew it. And Ike knew it too but again, was for too concerned with the German propaganda and rubbish (it should have been obvious that it was rubbish) of a so called "FINAL SOUTHERN REDOUBT" in Bavaria. Nonsense. There was no intelligence to support Goebbels' broadcasts but Ike chose to believe them. At bottom, I consdier Ike to be a first rate *POLITICAL* general and a third rate tactical Genral. It's a toss up between Monty and Rommel as to who the best military tactician was. I'd still say Monty. When I think of Ike, I think of highways. Lots of brand new American highways. Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:43:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: invading neutrals In Len Deighton's book "Blood, Tears, and Follies", he describes a plan put forth by Churchill to invade Sweden in 1940. During the Russo-Finnish war, the French and British governments declared that they would send Aircraft and troops to assist the Finnish. These volunteers would be landed at Narvik, Norway and transported via the rails through the iron-ore region of Sweden on the way to Finland. It seems as though Allies, on the pretext of aiding the Finnish, would also sieze the iron-ore fields to prevent the raw meterial from being sent to the Germans. Deighton makes two strong points - the cavalier attitude of Churchill in siezing neutral territory and the intelligence failure in over-valuing the need of the Germans on Swedish iron-ore. Deighton states that the Germans had no reliance on the Swedish metal since the Germans had a large stockpile of steel (over 40% of Germanies steel was still being allocated towards civilian use) and that they were being fully supplied by Austria, Poland, and Czechoslovakia. Also at the same time the Royal Navy was planning on mining nuetral Norwegian waters, siezing Narvik and several other ports to deny them to the Germans (and perhaps forcing a confrontation in Scandanavia that the Allies could win.) Ron Babuka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:49:41 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Swiss v. Allies On at least one occasion the US Air Force mistakenly unloaded some ordnance on the Swiss city of Schaffhausen, near the Germany border. Question: Did the Swiss air force engage them as a result? -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:35:47 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Ausland Subject: POL: CONQUERING THE NEUTRALS Oslo, February 24. As mentioned by others, Hitler's main interest in Sweden was the iron ore, and he got this without fighting. In fact, the Germans informed the Swedes in advance that they planned to invade Norway and Denmark but would leave them alone. The Swedes tried to pass this on to the Norwegians, who were not listening. Hitler had two strategic interests in Norway. One was to control Narvik, from which Swedish iron ore was shipped to Germany. He once commented to one of his generals that, if he were Churchill, he would sacrifice a million men to control Narvik. (It is a pity the British and French dithered so long and failed to get control of Narvik. It could have shortened the war.) The other strategic interest was the Norwegian airfields, from which the Luftwaffe could attack allied convoys headed to Murmansk. (Airfields in north Norway play an important role in US naval strategy today, for they and airfields in Scotland and Iceland would be crucial to control of the Norwegian sea.) A lesser known episode is allied plans for the invasion of Norway, had the German forces here not surrendered. The plan was to move forces from Denmark into Sweden and attack from there. There was also a plan to land forces in Stavanger, on the west coast of Norway. Where they would have gone from there is a mystery to me. (If anyone know anything more about these plans, I would be curious to see it.) Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:53:02 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: INF: RFD: soc.history.reenactment In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 23 FEB 1994 14:46:59 CST Of course I am interested in getting into a group like that, however I am kinda confused--is this group forming, and if it is, does someone already have the techincal end of it set up? I am not volunteering to run it because my PANZERGRENADIER newsletter keeps me plenty busy, but I am definately interested in being a member of it. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:12:56 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: Request for INformation In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 23 FEB 1994 01:56:24 CST Are these figures prices for aircraft purchase, or for restoration? I know in the AFV market for WWII vehicles, once you get away from the basics jeep/Kubelwagen type vehicle, the prices get difficult to predict. ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Ike Chuck, It's obvious that you don't like Ike, but I think some of your points are open to debate. The first one concerns Berlin and it being or not being a military/political target. My guestion to you would be "why should any British or American soldier have been killed getting to a territory that would be handed over to the Russians anyway?" Certainly Berlin was the prize, but how many thousands of western allied caulties would it have taken to hand it to Stalin? The second point concerns Monty. Ike, as you know, recognized Monty's tactical prowess in the set-piece battle, and this is why he delegated responsibility for the initial Overlord operations to Monty. Wouldn't you agree that this was a wise idea? I think that a man who knows how to delagate responsibility to qualified underlings shows a great deal of character. Marshall recognized this in Ike and gave him responsibilities. What's wrong with that. And, getting back to Monty for a second, lets not forget that Market-Garden was concocted for the specific reason of allowing Monty and 21st AG to reach Berlin ahead of Patton. To read any- thing else into this disaster is to miss the point. This shoestring operation was specifically designed to leap across the rivers that Patton in the South did not have to deal with. Now that you mention it, Ike approved Monty's lame plan. Maybe you're right about him...... John Horner SUNY at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Mr. Scott Hannon" Subject: Re: Request for INformation No I can't confirm the figures, but I suspect the relative cost of the B-26 is due to it's limited production. Its like the situation with the new B1 stealth bomber. You make 10 of them and the cost works out to 6 billion each. You make 100 and the cost is 2 billion each. As far as I can remember,not many B-26s were made, so the R&D costs all piled up into a few (a couple hundred?) planes. Scott. Scott Hannon, Thu Feb 24 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:18:02 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: Command Structures In reply to the mail from ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Received: from ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu by dpsc.dla.mil (5.61++/1.34) > id AA14579; Thu, 24 Feb 94 04:01:06 -0500 >Message-Id: <9402240901.AA14579@dpsc.dla.mil> >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with BSMTP id 6324; Thu, 24 Feb 94 03:59:07 EST >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by > UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3869; Thu, > 24 Feb 1994 03:59:06 -0500 >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 02:56:04 +22311624 >Reply-To: World War II Discussion List >Sender: World War II Discussion List >From: Monte Turner >Subject: Command Structures >X-To: World War II >To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L > >I would appreciate help putting together a readings list. The subject is >the Military Command Structures of the primary powers in World War II. Any >ideas concerning such a subject would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks ahead of time, >Monte Turner > Monte, My humble submissions for consideration: "Eisenhower's Lieutenants" by Russell Weigley "Churchill's Generals" edited by John Keegan "Hitler's Generals" edited by Correlli Barnett The newly released "Stalin's Generals" edited by Harold Shukman Forrest C. Pogue's four-volume biography of George Marshall Nigel Hamilton's three-volume biography of Montgomery Jim Irwin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- James E. Irwin (Jim) Internet address: Defense Personnel Support Center jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil 2800 S. 20th Street 215-737-8760 Philadelphia PA 19101-8419 Autovon 444-8760 "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Winston S. Churchill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:07:11 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Swiss v. Allies There is no record of the Swiss Air Force engaging American aircraft in WW2. There are records of two actual air-combats between Swiss and Luftwaffe aircraft. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:08:49 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Conquering neutrals As I said earlier, there are records of the Swiss actually shooting dwn Luftwaffe planes in WW2. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ricky Prado Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: <9402241523.AA14448@icarus.lis.pitt.edu> I am certainly looking forward to the responses this tirade is going to get. As for my own, I haven't quite made up my mind about Ike. I don't think that his value can be measured solely on his tactical knowledge (or lack of). I don't even think that there are many examples from history of the kind of job Ike had: commander of an army composed of US, British, British Commonwealth, and French troops (my apologies if I've left anyone out). For every nation represented on field there were politicians with agenga's. How many times did Ike have to appease De Gaulle? I may not know if Ike did the best job in the world but I'll be dammned if I would want the job he had to do! I have read several books about the European Theatre after D-Day, and many seem to point fingers at Monty and give him a hard time for being such a pain. Bradley's two books, Patton's selected letter's, even Monty's Cheif of Staff had less than flattering things to say. His constant politicing to get his way certainly didn't help him worm his way into anybodies heart. His lack of movement at the D-Day beachhead is generally criticized because it led to the stagnant "bocage" warfare up until August. The air force was furious because Monty promised them the flatlands past Caan for their airfields, and didn't give it to them until 10 weeks later. His mania for the single thrust to Berlin manifested itself in the Arnhem debacle which cost the UK the greater part of an airborne division and kept Antwerp as an unusable port for longer then it needed. My views are my own. I try to understand the value of the Ike's and the Monty's from the perceptive of the "bigger picture". Monty may not have been the best general on the field, but he served an important purpose for the British army and the British people. He was a true hero for his performance in Africa, but I think he realized it and used that to his advantage. Who would fire a hero? (besides Patton I mean). @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ___ (_|_) Ricky Prado "Thank you for your sweetly |\ prado@icarus.lis.pitt.edu faked attention." University of Pittsburgh Kurt Vonnegut @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:49:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:56:19 EST from <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Chuck writes: >> At bottom, I consdier Ike to be a first rate *POLITICAL* general and a >> rate tactical Genral. It's a toss up between Monty and Rommel as to who >> the best If you were to objectively look at Rommel - one could also draw a conclusion that he was not all that he was racked up to be. In the Battle of France, Rommels 7th Panzer was almost routed by a very weak collection of two Territorial Battalions, 1 motor-cycle battalion, and a group of 70+ tanks. That rear-guard action by a much inferior force had to smart for Gen. Rommel. If you were to talk to many Germans, Gen. Rommel does not fit in as one of the great tacticians on the battle-front. There would be many who would say that he was a good General, ideally suited for a divisional command who suffered from a very serious lack of foresight. For the most part he was more popular with British soldiers (and Commonwealth I should add) than with German soldiers. One could say that British and German propoganda had a large part to do with building his reputation. Rommel was a flashy commander who loved to be up on the front line, a fact that endeared himself to the British soldier whos commanders were often 100 miles behind the lines. Gen. Rommel often did little more than redeploy and attack in the same manner as the British Gen. O'Connor. Gen. Rommel was seriously deficiant in his understanding of the importance of logistics in modern warfare. The general really never made any efforts to streamline his supply lines which often extended over 1,000 miles. He made very little effort into utilizing or improving coastal supply roads or rail system that existed. Also many of the Generals success are related to the fact that his Radio Units were intercepting British radio communications. Included in these radio intercepts were unit dispositions and strengths, future battle plans , and even upcoming commando raids. By mid-1942 the British had realized that their radio transmissions were being monitored, and from that point on Rommels genius was a little more subdued. The point of this who monologue is that there were no perfect generals out there, for each on that had a strength for the most part they had a weakness. A great commander is one that recognizes and promotes the individual to use his strength without letting him shoot themselves in the foot with their weakness. For the most part I think Gen. Eisenhower was fairly successful in molding and bending the qualities of his subordinates into an effective fighting force. The problem is often that politics and personalities would discolor this artform. Ron Babuka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:14:44 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:56:19 EST from <71233.677@COMPUSERV E.COM> On Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:56:19 EST Chuck Weckesser said: >America has never had a finer General than in personage of General Marshall, I can support that. The Marshall Plan & Berlin Airlift all by themselves are 2 of the most brilliant post-war strokes ever conceived. As a grand strategist, I can't think of any Americans his equal. It's a mortal pity that Dulles was so much Marshall's inferior, IMHO. >My favorite general (I know, I'm an American and shouldn't be saying this) is >British. Monty always knew what he was talking about. Don't buy this at all. Market Garden alone shows that Monty had, at best, an imperfect understanding of how to wage war, & makes all his talk about a single, narrow thrust to Berlin so much hot air, IMHO. >. . . . I agree. What do you think - did Ike pay >his >dues? Remember, he was a major in 1939. You must decide for yourself. I will. . . as soon as you tell me how long he had been a major. In the post-ww-i American army, you could have stayed a lieutenant for 20 years, f' pete's sake. >Monty knew the Allies could take Berlin as Hitler's orders were virtually being >ignored and they (the Allies) pored through the Western Front after the >Ardennes >with little difficulty. So? A lot of prestige to taking Berlin, no doubt, but the Russians paid a bloody price for it. At any rate, even if true, we are only talking about a difference of a month or so. >Finally, in a rage (his first one), Ike snapped, "I'm commander in chief, not >you, and you shall follow my orders." Monty left seething, but, being the good >officer he was, he did obey his orders. Monty was so insubordinant, it's a miracle that it was Ike's *first* rage (-: >Monty sould have been Commander in Chief. If he had, we (e.g. the Americans and >British and I omit the French as they did nothing of any importance and >therefore do not deserve to be described as a "victor") would have taken Berlin >first just as Monty said. See above re: Berlin. Repeat what you've just said re: French to one of Leclerc's veteran's in the face--I want to watch from a safe distance (-: As for Monty as a commander, decidedly overrated in every respect. His lame pursuit of Rommel for 3 months should have sufficed to bury him, if not his appropriation without credit of Auchinleck's plan for El Alamein. He didn't do so well around Caen, either. And Market Garden--well, less said the better. Fortunately, he wasn't in charge of the war. . . even if his ego thought he was (-: >Churchill did what he could to help Monty but was again (although far more >tactfully) overruled by Ike who insisted that Berlin was not a major strategic >target. The Ruhr was infinitely more important. But given the situation in March '45 it almost didn't matter what the Allies struck at. If you seriously think the Allies could have reached Berlin in '44, I'm not sure you are thinking about the same war as I am (-: >At bottom, I consdier Ike to be a first rate *POLITICAL* general and a third >rate tactical Genral. It's a toss up between Monty and Rommel as to who the >best >military tactician was. I'd still say Monty. I'm not sure what a "tactical general" would mean in the context of WW-II, but as fond as I am of Rommel, I'd have to rate Guderian & Manstein, to name 2, ahead of him in generalship, and I might give Kesselring the edge as a theatre commander. I don't know much more about Kleist, except he is about the only field marshall to win his baton for a retreat--deservedly so!--or Model, but they might qualify as well. Monty, it almost goes without saying, wasn't in the same league as these generals, much less the same ball park. IMHO, of course (-: ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:19:44 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike Mc Carthy paid the price though. President Eisenhower helped to set the stage of Mc Carthy's down fall. Eisenhower worked behind the scenes and made sure the objective was taken. *********************************************************************** Andrew Rowden "God and the soldier we alike adore, arowden@crassus.onu.edu In time of danger, not before. Frontier Regular The danger past and all things righted, God is forgotten, the soldier slighted." - Thomas Jordan, 1612-1686 *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:28:57 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: Re: Neutral Countries While on the subject of the Swiss, I recall an interesting story -- An American B-24, on its way back to base in Great Britain, flew over Swiss air space. This was the conversation that took place over the radio: Swiss Anti Aircraft unit - "You realize that you have violated neutral Swiss air space." Pilot, B-24 - "Yes, we know." Swiss AA - "You realize that we will have to fire upon you." Pilot, B-24 - "Yes, we know." The Swiss AA begins to fire. The flak falls very short of its target. The pilot radios back: "Your fire is way to low!" The Swiss radio back "Yes, we know." I am not sure of the accuracy of this short tale, but it does make an interesting ancedote. *********************************************************************** Andrew Rowden "God and the soldier we alike adore, arowden@crassus.onu.edu In time of danger, not before. Frontier Regular The danger past and all things righted, God is forgotten, the soldier slighted." - Thomas Jordan, 1612-1686 *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:34:39 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: Re: Ike I would agree with John Horner. Ike was very capable leader and he had the respect of his troops as well as the majority of the Allied leaders. He knew how to delegate and get the job done. Ike also never forgot Marshall, who was one of his closest friends. *********************************************************************** Andrew Rowden "God and the soldier we alike adore, arowden@crassus.onu.edu In time of danger, not before. Frontier Regular The danger past and all things righted, God is forgotten, the soldier slighted." - Thomas Jordan, 1612-1686 *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:53:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in '43? In-Reply-To: <199402202332.AA15599@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Chuck Weckesser" at Fe The Soviet people had been hurt too deeply for them to accept an armistice with the Nazis. Anything less than victory would have precipitated self-questioning -- about the purges of the Red Army officer corps, etc. -- which would have finished Stalin. Stalin may not have realized this, or he may have been playing Hitler along, knowing that time was on his side. Whether or not Unconditional Surrender was a wise war aim for the Western Allies -- I think it was -- it could be the only one for the Soviets. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:32:09 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Test Hello, all! This is just a test to see if I am making contact with everyone on the list. Thank you. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:03:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Subject: Re: Test In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:32:09 GMT-6 from Yes Terry, we heard you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:14:27 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: Request for INformation I don't know whether my aircraft price figures are original cost or for restorations, but I assume original cost. I thought that it was possible somebody from that organization would know the publication and have first hand information. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:39:17 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: from "Ron Babuka" at Feb 24, 94 11:49:42 am I like Ike, but I'm no Republican, thank heaven. He had a different job as SHAEF from Monty's. Ike's job was not to be any kind of tactician, but to make a huge circus work. I think Americans have a lot of doubt that Monty could have pulled off half of what he proposed with all his single thrust suggestions. And it seems to me that Market Garden is completely indicative of the kind of problems you have translating a grand tactical stroke into regiment by regiment reality. I'd like to say something about Marshall as well. He has a tremendous myth-system built around him. (As does Adm. King.) Marshall's job was to make a multi-hemisphere picture stay cohesive, but he also had political tasks. I think Marshall got bested by the British senior staff at the beginning of the war and, for some reason, this has detracted very little from the main myth. This is conterfactual speculation, but I don't think Monty could have been SHAEF. He had too much ego and was disliked by too many to succeed in the leadership roll which was Ike's. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:57:23 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Bin: RE: Ike section 1 of uuencode 5.10 of file ike.asc by R.E.M. begin 644 ike.asc M#0H-"B`@("`@("`@($DG;2!U2X@2&4-"B`@("`@("`@('=A2!A="!%;"!!;&%M96EN('=A2!S:&]R="!O9B!S=7!P;&EE2!A;F0@ M2!W M;W5L9"!H879E(&)E96X@2=S(&9U=&EL92!A='1E;7!T('1O('!R;W9E M(`T*("`@("`@("`@:&ES('-I;F=L92!T:')U2P-"B`@("`@("`@(&UA:6YL>2!B96-A=7-E(&AE(&1I M9&XG="!B96QI979E(&AI2X@($AE(&UA;F%G960@=&\@:&%R;F5S Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll" Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 24 FEB 1994 08:56:19 EST > I do not believe Eisenhower to be a man of character or integrity. Rather than > start with his war failings, I would prefer to start *BACKWARDS* with his firs > run for President in 1952. > > America has never had a finer General than in personage of General Marshall, a > it was General Marshall who took *MAJOR* Eisenhower under his wing in 1939. Th > rest, thanks to Marshall alone, is history. > > During a campaign speech, Eisenhower, SHOCKINGLY, allowed that filthy slimebal > Sen. Macarthy to actually *ATTACK* the integrity of General Marshall and > insinuate that Marshall may have communist leanings. Ike sat in his chair and > did NOTHING. This is an established historical fact ladies and gentleman. I > apologize for getting off subject, but back to WW2 in just a second. > Chuck - Harry Truman agreed on this point (see David McCulloch's [sp?] excellent bio of Truman) As to the rest, I look forward to what others on the list have to say - Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY jzml@maristb.marist.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: Test In reply to the mail from ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Received: from ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu by dpsc.dla.mil (5.61++/1.34) > id AA05858; Thu, 24 Feb 94 16:14:58 -0500 >Message-Id: <9402242114.AA05858@dpsc.dla.mil> >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with BSMTP id 7575; Thu, 24 Feb 94 16:10:08 EST >Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by > UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3228; Thu, > 24 Feb 1994 14:32:53 -0500 >Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:32:09 GMT-6 >Reply-To: World War II Discussion List >Sender: World War II Discussion List >From: Terry Moore >Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML >Subject: Test >X-To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L >Status: RO > >Hello, all! > >This is just a test to see if I am making contact with everyone on >the list. > >Thank you. > >Terry > >Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College >P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 >fax 806-371-5370 > Terry, You made contact with me. Where have you been? I, for one, have missed your contributions. Glad you're back!! Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- James E. Irwin (Jim) Internet address: Defense Personnel Support Center jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil 2800 S. 20th Street 215-737-8760 Philadelphia PA 19101-8419 Autovon 444-8760 "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." Winston S. Churchill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:12:46 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Test Victoria, BC, reporting in. Heard you loud and clear... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:06:02 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael Cotter Subject: Re: POL: CONQUERING THE NEUTRALS In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:35:47 +0100 from P. S. Good to hear from you John; hope you're enjoying a front-row seat at the Olympics. B=) PPS--Yes, I know that this is going out to the whole list......... Michael Cotter Documents Librarian, Joyner Library East Carolina University, Greenville NC 27858 919/757-6533; email: LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:23:15 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Neutral Countries In-Reply-To: <9402241929.AA03859@agaviion.agfx.com> What kind of planes did the Swiss Air Force fly, and what kind of Luftwaffe aircraft did they shoot down? *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:28:03 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Swiss Air Force In-Reply-To: <9402242206.AA06182@agaviion.agfx.com> What kind of fighter planes did the Swiss AF fly, and what kinds of Luftwaffe aircraft did they shoot down? *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:47:48 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael Cotter Subject: Re: POL: Conquering the Neutrals In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 22 Feb 1994 15:57:00 PST from One of the other listreaders replied to the portion of the message about Switzerland with a statement about the Swiss threatening to blow up the tunnels if the Germans invaded. A quotation that is related to this was, "The Germans might get into Switzerland, but they won't get out." The quotation might be from an article aboutSwitzerland by John McPhee that was published in _The New Yorker_ and then published as _La place de la concorde suisse_ in 1984. It's an interesting article about the Swiss national defense system--a good read. Also related to the question of Conquering the Neutrals: Charles Kuralt, on a CBS Olympic broadcast the other night, had a feature about some Norwegian heroes from WWII who blew up a heavy water manufacturing plant in Norway. Seems that the manufacture of heavy water, which the Germans hoped to use in their work on making an a-bomb, was one of the key reasons the Germans wanted to conquer Norway. Four of these men are still alive from that time, and they're still national heroes (the raiding party consisted of about 12 men). For what it's worth. Michael Cotter Documents Librarian, Joyner Library East Carolina University, Greenville NC 27858 919/757-6533; email: LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:54:43 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike In-Reply-To: <01H99AEL0LDU8WWEB9@KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU> Chuck, While I am no Ike expert, and I have little to no basis nor desire to disagree with your analysis I must point out that it probably neither persuasive, nor conducive to discussion (maybe that was not your intention) to end many points with "Period" and "End of discussion". The "what is history" discussion rarely leaves out the point that history is to some degree (though the extent of degree is debatable) subjective. Just a constructive observation . . . All Smiles, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:13:29 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: I like Ike > Chuck writes: > > >> At bottom, I consdier Ike to be a first rate *POLITICAL* general and a > >> rate tactical Genral. It's a toss up between Monty and Rommel as to who > >> the best and Ron says: > If you were to objectively look at Rommel - one could also draw a conclusion > that he was not all that he was racked up to be. > > Gen. Rommel was seriously deficiant in his understanding of the importance > of logistics in modern warfare. The general really never made any efforts > to streamline his supply lines which often extended over 1,000 miles. > > Also many of the Generals success are related to the fact that his Radio > Units were intercepting British radio communications. Included in these > radio intercepts were unit dispositions and strengths, future battle plans > , and even upcoming commando raids. By mid-1942 the British had realized > that their radio transmissions were being monitored, and from that point > on Rommels genius was a little more subdued. > > Ron Babuka Hi Chuck, Boy you really opened a can of worms with that Ike post! Gutsy move to take such critical positions with this crowd! Ron's points are well taken too but I disagree with his analysis of Rommel. I'll first start with Chuck's post. While it is true that Ike never commanded troops in combat prior to his WW2 experiences he was not chosen because of his tactical skill but rather his administrative abilities and political sensitivities. As you pointed out, at this Ike was the master so why speak ill of him for it? Patton was IMHO the finest field commander we had but he was a loose cannon and it would have been a disaster had he been in charge of the Allied Forces in Europe. Patton knew very well that you could not make an omelet without breaking some eggs. He just couldn't deal with people who did not share his philosophy of "No guts, no glory". I think Patton would have hated Ike's position had he been selected for it. He would much rather command a Corps or Division than have to deal with multi-national forces and >gag< politicians. The only other Generals I am familiar with that might have done as good a job with Supreme Allied Commander as Ike might have been Bradley or Lord Mountbatton. If its the Marshall thing with MacCarthy, I know some of the background there. Ike was campaigning in Michigan, MacCarthy's State, and had written a speech in defence of General Marshall which his aids suggested that he omit as it would cause a rift in the Republican Party at a critical time in the campaign. Ike relented and from that time on regretted not defending his mentor as he had originally planned. He also became convinced that MacCarthy had to go and saw to it that MacCarthy fell from grace for his sins. Now for Ron on Rommel: Very true that Rommel was not universally loved within the German Army, particularly among other officers who commanded neighboring units during his campaign with the 7th Panzer Div. in France 1940. It seems that Rommel had this annoying habit of commandeering units >from neighboring divisions and using them to sustain his advance. This made his colleagues highly irate and slowed them in taking their objectives. Nothing smooths ruffled feathers like success and Rommel was soon promoted over the offended officers. Rommel had some political influence too as Hitler had read Rommel's book _Infantrie Greift An_ and was much impressed. So impressed that he appointed Col. Rommel to the Fuhrerhauptquartier (Hitler's personal staff) where he served through the Polish campaign. Rommel was promoted to Generalmajor in this post but wanted to get into the fighting. Hitler finally released him to command the 7th Pz Div. in France. His exploits there won him yet another promotion and his Knights Cross to the Iron Cross. Ron's point on Rommel's lack of concern for supply lines is well taken however, Rommel's strategy was to blitz the enemy and feed off of their supplies which he did quite often (remember the Mammoth?). Rommel gambled everything on being able to so devastate the Brits in North Africa that they would not be able to recover enough to pose a threat to his advance force. It worked in France. Had Hitler not expressly forbid Rommel to go into Egypt in pursuit of the 8th Army this strategy might have worked in North Africa as well. As for communications security, if the Brits were dumb enough to transmit in the clear then they deserved what they got. It is also a useful ploy to allow the enemy to intercept messages and lull them into a sense of feeling that they are reliable only to lead them into a trap. It happened on occasion. Recall too that the Brits had captured the Enigma cypher machine in Greece, and were aware of the value of intercept information. I don't think the Brits were making those kinds of errors. Rommel was more than happy to oblige the Brits with transmissions in the clear during battles. Rommel realized that the Brits were too slow to react to the information so why take the time to encode it? That was the brilliance of Rommel. He could adapt to situations and take advantage of weaknesses that developed in the heat of battle. He could pull it off because Rommel was there and his opposite number was way behind the lines. Monty was well thought of by his troops and was certainly the most flamboyant of all the British Generals in the war but Monty liked to have the odds heavily in his favor before taking on Rommel (like to the tune of 8:1 in armor). This prompted Patton's comment that Mongomery was more concerned with not loosing a battle than with not winning it. Others have commented on Monty far more eloquently and thoroughly than I so I'll leave it with that. In all, a very provocative post, Chuck! On other lists it would have sparked a flame war for sure. Here, I am proud to say we are beyond that. I've been on here about 6 months and have yet to see a flame war. Its a pleasure and an honor to be associated with you all. Best Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:24:23 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll" Subject: Re: invading neutrals In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 24 FEB 1994 08:43:21 EST Churchill ordered the French fleet to be sunk so as to prevent the Germans from getting those ships. His plan to invade a neutral to prevent Hitler from getting iron ore is perfectly consistent with Churchill's policy of victory at all costs. Churchill knew Britain was fighting for her life and that the ends justified the means. My problem is with any country thinking it was morally acceptable to remain neutral in the face of Hitler. Perhaps that is my 20/20 hindsight! Just my $.02! Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY jzml@maristb.marist.edu > In Len Deighton's book "Blood, Tears, and Follies", he describes a plan > put forth by Churchill to invade Sweden in 1940. During the Russo-Finnish > war, the French and British governments declared that they would send > Aircraft and troops to assist the Finnish. These volunteers would be landed > at Narvik, Norway and transported via the rails through the iron-ore region > of Sweden on the way to Finland. It seems as though Allies, on the pretext > of aiding the Finnish, would also sieze the iron-ore fields to prevent the > raw meterial from being sent to the Germans. > > Deighton makes two strong points - the cavalier attitude of Churchill in > siezing neutral territory and the intelligence failure in over-valuing > the need of the Germans on Swedish iron-ore. Deighton states that the > Germans had no reliance on the Swedish metal since the Germans had a > large stockpile of steel (over 40% of Germanies steel was still being > allocated towards civilian use) and that they were being fully supplied > by Austria, Poland, and Czechoslovakia. > > Also at the same time the Royal Navy was planning on mining nuetral > Norwegian waters, siezing Narvik and several other ports to deny them > to the Germans (and perhaps forcing a confrontation in Scandanavia that > the Allies could win.) > > Ron Babuka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:53:59 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Combat Command A/B and ??? (CCR) In-Reply-To: <199402241942.AA17236@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Stephen Baldwin" at Fe Let's not forget CCR -- the REMF/Lt. Tank Reserve. Con Crane & Gang, can you enlighten us? Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 19:03:15 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Noone's getting ignored. In-Reply-To: <199402241958.AA21463@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Sidney Allinson" at Fe I haven't, Sid. I also haven't ignored the millions of Russian men, women, and children starved/frozen/murdered by Stalin & crew. Lou ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:11:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: Boring Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics of this most vicious of wars? Does it really matter how much a B-26 costs, who Ike delegated authority to, or where his priorities were? The fact that humans murdered each other and Mother Earth on a mass scale from 1939 to 1945 is a result of a great spiritual sickness that goes back thousands of years to when warrior cultures came into being. The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and peace. We have been conditioned to believe that the events of this century and all the death and destruction are a result of human barbarism and depravity, but it's really a total aberration from our true Self. Our lower, animal self has been given too much attention instead of our true, God-like, higher selves. We chose to commit genocide on the Native Americans, we chose to wave our flags when American troops were ruthlessly hunting down the Phillipine Resistance and killing great numbers of people. We have chosen not to question the gov't, the Internat'l Banks, the Federal Reserve. Who do you think armed Hitler? Who really built the Soviet Union? It's not as if Germany suddenly burst out of a stifling depression (people were carrying huge baskets of Reichmarks just to buy some food in the 20s) into a great industrial/military power without some major help. Do the firms of Brown Brothers, Harriman or Guaranty Trust come to mind? Find out what they were doing in the 20s and 30s. I suggest any books by Antony Sutton should be read by those who are interested. He wrote the 3-volume series called "Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development" 1917-1930, 1930-1945, 1945-1965. He also wrote "Hitler's Secret Backers" and "America's Secret Establishment". Consult also anything with pertinent titles by Craig Hulet, another is "Tragedy and Hope" by Carroll Quigley. I hope I'm not attacked and vilified by people with very entrenched opinions or philosophies. My intent is for all of us to look at ourselves and see that we have opted to be led, instead of realizing our full god-like potential that are stifled by obsolete beliefs. I know this is controversial so please, send away! Hoka Hey! -Dylan Fierro ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 20:32:29 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Swiss air force I seem to recall -- and I will check my sources later -- that the Swiss had some ME 109s (not certain which mark, though). -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 19:32:34 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: Why I Detest Ike This discussion -- with its words like hate and slimeball (misspelled) -- and others does not in my mind seem appropriate on this list. I have been impressed with the high level of scholarship I have seen in my short time on the list. Generally, I associate name calling with either those who have no facts or who have their own axes to grind. What do we have here? Can we improve the discussion a bit??? george bauer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:28:34 MST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael Markowsky Subject: MEDIA: Buying "Fatal Attraction" (fwd) Steve Fox wrote, > I'm interested in buying a copy from A&E. Does anyone know an address > that would be appropriate for such a request? You should be able to find the address of A&E at the end of any Biography program, but I'd personally just tape the episodes off of television, it's much cheaper. Just wait until it appears again and tape it. I think A&E charges 30 or so dollars for just one episode, and that's too much for me! Michael Markowsky Abe7@educ.ucalgary.ca Calgary, Alberta, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 03:44:18 +0200 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: yitzchak kerem Subject: Re: Noone's getting ignored. Thanks, Yitzchak Kerem ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 23:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: Dylan, may I just point out that this is a World _War_ II list. We junkies kind of like discussing "trivial" matters like the cost of a B-29 etc. May I suggest a "Roaring Twenties" list or something of the like if we offend your sensibilities? David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 17:52:19 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stan Koper Organization: None at the moment Subject: Kelly's Heroes References In-Reply-To: <199402231612.IAA08966@mail.netcom.com> > Larry Jewell writes: > > Think of Usenet as a cocktail party/frat party in a museum/library and you > > have an idea of the happy chaos that goes on there. > > This reminded me of a "Natural Law of Usenet" that was posted > a while back. Enjoy. > > "Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: > As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison > involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. > -- > Joe Barone > m1b@ssd.ray.com > Booker, get me my uniform! > As a guilty party, I won't comment on that. I hope this is not too "off topic", but I'm curious about the fact that I seem to see a lot of references to "Kelly's Heroes" in this list. Is there some reason why that particular film seems to be so admired? I don't see references to other fine war films, such as "Attack", "Merrill's Marauders", "The Victors", or "Castle Keep". Is it the use of period hardware? Demonstration of small unit tactics? Plot? What? Stan Koper skoper@netcom.com This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 22:53:03 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Bin: RE: Ike Will someone pls explain to me why this message is nothing but giberish? (not all the posts on Ike, just this one). -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 23:22:03 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Request for INformation According to my closest csource, 5,178 B-26's were built. But the economy of scale may still be at work because over 11,000 B-25's were built. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 23:01:04 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Re: Request for INformation In-Reply-To: <199402240053.QAA03036@netcomsv.netcom.com> > > Can anyone confirm these figures? If they are true, can anyone explain > why the B-26 was so expensive compared with the B-25? > B-25: $96,000 > B-26: $227,000 > B-17: $276,000 > B-24: $336,000 > B-29: $639,000 I can't confirm any figures, but I can speculate on the cost difference. Number one, the B-25 is an older, though not much, airplane than the B-26. This would bring the costs down slightly. Number two, it was bulit in much greater numbers. This also brings down the cost. Anyone out there care to fill in the details? John ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Feb 1994 23:15:27 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: <199402250141.RAA00988@netcomsv.netcom.com> On Thu, 24 Feb 1994, Carey Stephens wrote: > Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics of this most > vicious of wars? Does it really matter how much a B-26 costs, who Ike delegated > authority to, or where his priorities were? The fact that humans murdered each > other and Mother Earth on a mass scale from 1939 to 1945 is a result of a great > spiritual sickness that goes back thousands of years to when warrior cultures > came into being. > > The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and peace. We have > been conditioned to believe that the events of this century and all the death > and destruction are a result of human barbarism and depravity, but it's really > a total aberration from our true Self. Our lower, animal self has been given too > much attention instead of our true, God-like, higher selves. We chose to commit > genocide on the Native Americans, we chose to wave our flags when American > troops were ruthlessly hunting down the Phillipine Resistance and killing great > numbers of people. > > We have chosen not to question the gov't, the Internat'l Banks, the Federal > Reserve. Who do you think armed Hitler? Who really built the Soviet Union? > It's not as if Germany suddenly burst out of a stifling depression (people were > carrying huge baskets of Reichmarks just to buy some food in the 20s) into a > great industrial/military power without some major help. Do the firms of Brown > Brothers, Harriman or Guaranty Trust come to mind? Find out what they were doing > in the 20s and 30s. I suggest any books by Antony Sutton should be read by those > who are interested. He wrote the 3-volume series called "Western Technology and > Soviet Economic Development" 1917-1930, 1930-1945, 1945-1965. He also wrote > "Hitler's Secret Backers" and "America's Secret Establishment". Consult also > anything with pertinent titles by Craig Hulet, another is "Tragedy and Hope" > by Carroll Quigley. > > I hope I'm not attacked and vilified by people with very entrenched opinions or > philosophies. My intent is for all of us to look at ourselves and see that we > have opted to be led, instead of realizing our full god-like potential that are > stifled by obsolete beliefs. I know this is controversial so please, send away! > Hoka Hey! -Dylan Fierro Like it or not, this is the subject of this list and this is what we talk about. If you don't like it, unsubscribe. John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 06:26:10 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lowe Barrett MAJ Subject: Re: Test Terry, Good to see you posting again. Have a computer problem???? Have a good weekend, Bear Barrett F. Lowe RANGERS LEAD THE WAY! MAJ, IN Dept of Physics, West Point (e-mail: hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 06:27:44 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: <9402250202.AA27980@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "Carey Stephens" at Feb 24, 94 5:11 pm This list has gone the full gamut of discussion regarding the war. If anyone has a topic they wish to discuss, they can start a thread and see who chimes in. I'm the only person on this list who can extinguish a thread, something I seldom do and never relish. I'm also the only one on the list who has to read *everything*, all others have the option of not following a topic if they choose. I expect all members of this list to maintain the level of courtesy you have set for youselves and I'm be in touch with anyone who fails to do so. On the whole I'm hugely impressed with all of you and thank you for making this a workable and interesting gathering. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 06:33:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lowe Barrett MAJ Subject: Re: Swiss Air Force Jim, I know that they had at least two squadrons of Bf109Es (made in Munich no less and bought before the war). Bear >What kind of fighter planes did the Swiss AF fly, and what kinds of >Luftwaffe aircraft did they shoot down? > > > > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* > |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| > |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| > |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* > Barrett F. Lowe RANGERS LEAD THE WAY! MAJ, IN Dept of Physics, West Point (e-mail: hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:13:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 24-27 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES 24 - 27 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang THURSDAY, 24 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 bombers take off for an armed reconnaissance and shipping search over the Kurile Islands. Only 1 gets through and jettisons bombs upon finding the target overcast. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-24s pound the harbor area at Moulmein, railroad siding at Martaban, and targets of opportunity near Mingaladon Airfield and Zayat; fighters carry out numerous patrol and offensive sorties over the Sumprabum area. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 7 B-25s bomb the warehouse and dock area at Wuhu, China and 3 hit railroad yards and docks at Hongay, French Indochina. 9 P-40s attack docks and railroad yards at Campha Port, French Indochina. 10 P-38s on a sweep of the Yangtze River from Chihchow to Pengtse, China claim 4 river steamers, 5 tugs, 5 motor launches, and 15 sampans destroyed. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 233: "Big Week" continues with attacks on 3 German targets; 44 bombers and 10 fighters are lost. 1. 238 of 266 B-17s hit the industrial area at Schweinfurt; they claim 10-1-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 160 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 5 WIA and 110 MIA. 2. 295 of 304 B-17s hit Rostock and unidentified targets of opportunity; they claim 23-11-15 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost and 60 damaged; casualties are 8 WIA and 50 MIA. 3. 239 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Gotha; 169 hit the primary target and 44 hit Eisenach; they claim 50-10-20 Luftwaffe aircraft; 33 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 28 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 6 WIA and 324 MIA. 1 and 3 above are escorted by 70 P-38s, 609 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 88 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 4 P-38s are lost, the pilots are MIA; the P-47s claim 31-0-13 Luftwaffe aircraft, 4 P-47s are lost and 11 damaged, 1 pilot is WIA and 4 MIA; the P-51s claim 6-1-1 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-51s are lost, the pilots are MIA. Mission 234: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Lorient, Tours, Nantes, Brest and Reims, France at 2208-2226 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advanced HQ IX Air Support Command (set up at Uxbridge on 15 Feb) assumes operational control of its groups, which have been operating under orders from the VIII Fighter Command. 22 B-26s bomb airfields at Leeumarden, Deelen, and Gilze-Rijen, The Netherlands on a morning mission. 145 B-26s bomb NOBALL (V-weapon) targets between Saint-Omer and Abbeville, France during the afternoon. Following units arrive in England from Sicily with C-47s: 29th Troop Carrier Squadron, 313th Troop Carrier Group, at Folkingham; 36th and 37th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 316th Troop Carrier Group, at Cottesmore; 61st and 62d Troop Carrier Squadrons, 314th Troop Carrier Group, at Saltby. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17s (in coordination with Eighth Air Force raids on Germany) bomb an aircraft factory at Steyr, Austria and oil refinery at Fiume, Italy; the B-17s and escorting fighters claim 35 fighters shot down; 19 US aircraft are lost. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s hit the Fabrica di Roma landing ground; P-40s and A-36s hit gun positions, troop concentrations, trucks, and tanks in the battle areas; P-47's bomb a bridge at Arce. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A-24s and P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe small vessels, radio facilities, barracks and gun positions at Jaluit and Mille Atolls; B-25s from Tarawa Atoll pound Wotje Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters escort a USN dive bomber attack on the Wunapope supply area; some of the fighters later strafe a submarine off Cape Gazelle; 20+ B-25s, some with USN fighter escorts, attack Tobera, Keravat and Vunakanau Airfields and the town of Rabaul; 14 P-38s hit Wunapope and the Cape Gazelle area. Cape Saint George on New Ireland Island is attacked by 24 B-24s when the Vunakanau area is overcast. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 30+ A-20s hit the Wewak area, blasting fuel dumps, trucks, airfields, aircraft and supply stores; B-24s bomb Alexishafen and Momote on Los Negros Island. FRIDAY, 25 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s from Shemya Island are over Matsuwa Island shortly after midnight 24/25 Feb on a photographic reconnaissance and bomb run; the mission is not completed due to weather. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-25s and 4 P-51s attack bridges at Meza, Sinthe, and Natmauk, causing light damage to the bridges and destroying 3 locomotives and several railroad cars. 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, arrives at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds and enter combat on 16 Jun. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 16 P-40s attack docks, railroad yards and warehouses at Hongay; in the harbor 1 large boat is sunk and another damaged; 2 P-40's hit a cargo vessel at Campha Port, leaving it sinking; 2 others bomb and strafe Weichow Island. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 235: In the final "Big Week" mission, 4 targets in Germany are hit; 31 bombers and 3 fighters are lost. 1. 268 B-17s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Augsburg and the industrial area at Stuttgart; 196 hit Augsburg and targets of opportunity and 50 hit Suttgart; they claim 8-4-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 13 B-17s are lost and 172 damaged; casualties are 12 WIA and 130 MIA. 2. 267 of 290 B-17s hit aviation industry targets at Regensburg and targets of opportunity; they claim 13-1-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 12 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 82 damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 12 WIA and 110 MIA. 3. 172 of 196 B-24s hit aviation industry targets at Furth and targets of opportunity; they claim 2-2-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 44 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 61 MIA. Escort is provided by 73 P-38s, 687 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 139 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they P-38s claim 1-2-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-47s claim 13-2-10 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-47 is lost and 6 damaged, 1 pilot is MIA; the P-51s claim 12-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-51s are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair, 2 pilots are MIA. Mission 236: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Grenoble, Toulouse, Chartres, Caen and Raismes, France at 2129-2335 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Major General Paul L Williams becomes Commanding General IX Troop Carrier Command. 191 B-26s bomb Venlo, Saint-Trond, and Cambrai/Epinoy Airfields, France in a morning raid as a diversion in support of the VIII Bomber Command heavy bombers over Germany; 36 abort, mainly because of a navigational error; 164 B-26s dispatched against military targets in France during the afternoon are recalled because of bad weather. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Continuing coordinated attacks with the Eighth Air Force on European targets, B-17s with fighter escort pound a Regensburg aircraft factory; enemy fighter opposition is heavy. Other B-17s hit the air depot at Klagenfurt, Austria and the dock area at Pola, Italy. B-24s attack Fiume, Italy marshalling yard and port and hit Zell-am- See, Austria railroad and Graz airfield and the port area at Zara, Yugoslavia; 30+ US aircraft are lost; they claim 90+ fighters shot down. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, P-40s attack guns and troop concentrations E of Campoleone and in the Carroceto area; A-36s bomb the towns of Terracina and Sperlonga and roads in the area; P-40s also maintain patrols over Anzio. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s out of Makin Island bomb and strafe targets at Jaluit Atoll; B-25's from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Mille and Wotje Atolls; B-24s from Abemama and Tarawa pound Ponape Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-39s on armed reconnaissance bomb an AA position at Monoitu, hit the Aitara area, and attack a barge in the Cape Gazelle area; 20+ B-25s hit Matupi and Rapopo; 21 B-24s and 17 P-38s follow shortly with another strike on Rapopo. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25's pound Lorengau on Manus Island and the Alexishafen-Madang, New Guinea areas and Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island and A-20s bomb airfields at Alexishafen, New Guinea. HQ 85th Fighter Wing arrives at Gusap, New Guinea from the US. SATURDAY, 26 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): XI Bomber Command (Air Striking Group Task Group 90.1) is directed to conduct armed photographic reconnaissance missions in the Kurile Islands, day or night, as weather permits. HQ 28th Bombardment Group (Composite) moves from Adak Island to Shemya Island. CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 39th Reconnaissance Squadron, Antilles Air Command, begins a movement from Waller Field, Trinidad to the US; it will remain in the US until Dec 45. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 15 B-25s and P-51s demolish warehouses in Naba and Hopin, attack bridges at Yeu, Bawgyo and Tantabin, and strafe railroad cars and tracks at Tangon, Namyao, and Pyintha; the Tantabin bridge is rendered unusable while approaches of the Ye-u and Bawgyo bridges are damaged. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 B-25s from Nanning, China attack targets at Tourane, French Indochina, destroying 5 warehouses and a hangar at the airfield and a locomotive and 4 buildings at the railroad yard. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather limits operations severely, but P-47's hit shipping N and S of Velaluka, Yugoslavia. 379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Philippeville, Algeria to Ghisonaccia, Corsica; they have been operating from Gambit, Libya with B-25s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island attack Wotje and Jaluit Atolls; P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe targets on Mille Atoll. 27th and 38th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on Nanumea Island, Ellice Islands begin operating from Abemama and Makin Islands, respectively, with B-24s. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s join USN fighters in covering a USN dive bomber strike on Wunapope supply and shipping facilities; 22 B-25s, with fighter support, follow up with the day's second strike on Wunapope; shortly afterwards, 17 P-38s strike the same target; 12 P-39s bomb and strafe Monoitu, Ruisei, Makapeko and Mawareka. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb Wewak and Momote on Los Negros Island; B-25s, along with P-39s, hit the Madang-Alexishafen area and A-20s hit Angorum. SUNDAY, 27 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30+ P-51s and A-36s and 2 B-25s hit ammunition dumps near the Kamaing-Walawbum road, warehouses, railroad and power facilities, bridges, and targets of opportunity in the Ye-u and Tindeinyan areas. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s fly a sea sweep from Vinh to Nam Dinh, bombing the Nam Dinh distillery and railroad yards; no ships are sighted. 8 P-40s hit the railroad bridge at Puchi, China, rendering it unusable. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Major General Elwood R Quesada (reappointed Commanding General IX Fighter Command on 21 Feb) receives authority to revive the IX Fighter Command (existing only on paper since creation of the IX Air Support Command) on a temporary basis as an operational HQ to function as a Combined Control Center with RAF 11 Group at Uxbridge, England, where Fighter Command will prepare operations orders for Ninth Air Force fighter and fighter-bomber groups. Quesada retains command of the IX Air Support Command. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-36s attack Littoria and Guidonia Airfields and Ladispoli dock area; rail cars NE of Rome are also attacked; P-40s follow up with a raid against Littoria and hit trucks and other targets in the area; weather prevents other operations by the Twelfth Air Force. 4th Troop Carrier Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Catania to Ponte Olivo, Sicily with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A-24s and P-40s from Makin Island pound Jaluit and Mille Atolls, while B-25s from Abemama Island hit Wotje and Mille Atolls; B-24s from Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll bomb Ponape Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 16 P-39s strafe barges and other targets of opportunity along the SW coast of Bougainville Island throughout the day. On New Britain Island, Wunapope is attacked by 21 B-24s and 24 B-25s (both forces supported by fighter escorts) and by 14 P-38s; P-40s and USN fighters cover a USN dive bomber strike on Lakunai AA positions. 3 other P-38s strafe a radar station at Cape Saint George on New Ireland Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Colonel Jarred V Crabb becomes Commanding General V Bomber Command. In New Guinea, 30+ B-24s, with P-40 support, hit airfields at Boram, Wewak, and Tadji, 27 B-25s hit the Hansa Bay area, and over 30 A-20s attack Alexishafen and Marakum village. 30+ other B-25s attack Momote on Los Negros Island, Lorengau on Manus Island and other targets in the Admirality Islands. P-39s maintain armed reconnaissance over New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:33:45 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: IKE (decoded) This is the posting that came across in binary format. (Jim, check your options and send in plain ASCII, please.) Larry J I'm usually just a reader and an absorber of the interesting information that flows through this list, but Chuck's flame on General Eisenhower just begs for a response. Being as I am an Anglophile, and a great admirer of Churchill, I am no great admirer of Montgomery. He was irascible, vain, insubordinate, and overbearing. His victory at El Alamein was due to his overwhelming superiority in men and equipment. Rommel was always notoriously short of supplies, especially fuel for his tanks and vehicles. If Rommel had been able to resupply and reequip at any better rate, Monty would have been signing the surrender documents at the Suez Canal. Market Garden was Monty's futile attempt to prove his single thrust theory. He failed miserably, mainly because he didn't believe his own intelligence officers, and it cost the British an airborne division, and the Poles an airborne division. For what? To prove Monty was a better tactician than Patton? Monty was a major cause of the Allies failure to close the Falaise Gap. Patton got where he was supposed to meet the British coming down from Caen, and he had twice as far to go. The British were a hour late and a dollar short, the Germans escaped, and the war went on six months longer than necessary. No wonder Georgie Patton couldn't stand him. Now to Ike. He had the most thankless job of the war. You don't seriously believe that Montgomery could have done that job, do you? Montgomery couldn't get along with his own officers, and you suggest he could have forged an alliance with the Americans, the Canadians, the French, and developed a coherent plan to accomodate all the different political agendas. I don't think so, IMHO. I couldn't agree with you more about Marshall. Marshall had a book on junior officers, officers he felt would do in the future. Yes, Eisenhower was in that book, and with good reason. He was capable of pulling all the divergent ideas and people together and put the largest seaborne assault in history ashore at Normandy. He managed to harness the volatile personalities of Patton and Montgomery and get them to perform capably. Read "Eisenhower's Lieutenants" for a good insight into the problems Ike had. All in all, I think the best people for the jobs were in the jobs. A lot of that was due to Marshall's genius at picking competent junior officers who would and could perform in much more responsible positions, IMHO. Jim Irwin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 14:07:37 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: Swiss Air Force On Fri, 25 Feb 1994, Lowe Barrett MAJ wrote: > Jim, > > I know that they had at least two squadrons of Bf109Es (made in Munich no less > and bought before the war). > I believe that they also acquired some Bf 109G-s later, in return for the destruction of a Bf 110 nightfighter and its secret electronics, that had landed in Switzerland. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 08:46:37 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: from "Carey Stephens" at Feb 24, 94 05:11:00 pm Carey Stephens writes: |-> |-> Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics of this most |-> vicious of wars? SORRY, Carey, but NO! We can't because we're talking history here not philosophy or sensationalism. M.I. Finley's simple but hard definition of history is: a) find out what happened; b) explain why it happened. Unfortunately, a) means we have to look at the details, while b) is often damned difficult even with millions of details. But the historian is not allowed to immediately jump to sweeping generalizations as you allowed yourself to do. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:55:30 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: John Behrens From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: <199402250141.RAA00988@netcomsv.netcom.com> I gotta agree with John---that is what this list is all about. Most of us are interested in the cost of a B-25 bomber, or how many motorcycles there were in a recon abteilung, or the maximum effective range of Arado 234. That's why we are on this list. Our purpose is not to discuss the legitimacy of the war--IT HAPPENED. Ours is to study and learn what we can from it. If you are that concerned and consider the list boring, please don;t waste our time by posting statements telling us we are boring--I think it is quite lively myself. If you find it boring, then take charge of yourself and go do something else, or call 1-800-WAA-AAAH. Operators are standing by to hear your complaints. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- On Thu, 24 Feb 1994, Carey Stephens wrote: > Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics of this mos t > vicious of wars? Does it really matter how much a B-26 costs, who Ike delegate d > authority to, or where his priorities were? The fact that humans murdered each > other and Mother Earth on a mass scale from 1939 to 1945 is a result of a grea t > spiritual sickness that goes back thousands of years to when warrior cultures > came into being. > > The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and peace. We hav e > been conditioned to believe that the events of this century and all the death > and destruction are a result of human barbarism and depravity, but it's really > a total aberration from our true Self. Our lower, animal self has been given t oo > much attention instead of our true, God-like, higher selves. We chose to commi t > genocide on the Native Americans, we chose to wave our flags when American > troops were ruthlessly hunting down the Phillipine Resistance and killing grea t > numbers of people. > > We have chosen not to question the gov't, the Internat'l Banks, the Federal > Reserve. Who do you think armed Hitler? Who really built the Soviet Union? > It's not as if Germany suddenly burst out of a stifling depression (people wer e > carrying huge baskets of Reichmarks just to buy some food in the 20s) into a > great industrial/military power without some major help. Do the firms of Brown > Brothers, Harriman or Guaranty Trust come to mind? Find out what they were doi ng > in the 20s and 30s. I suggest any books by Antony Sutton should be read by tho se > who are interested. He wrote the 3-volume series called "Western Technology an d > Soviet Economic Development" 1917-1930, 1930-1945, 1945-1965. He also wrote > "Hitler's Secret Backers" and "America's Secret Establishment". Consult also > anything with pertinent titles by Craig Hulet, another is "Tragedy and Hope" > by Carroll Quigley. > > I hope I'm not attacked and vilified by people with very entrenched opinions o r > philosophies. My intent is for all of us to look at ourselves and see that we > have opted to be led, instead of realizing our full god-like potential that ar e > stifled by obsolete beliefs. I know this is controversial so please, send away ! > Hoka Hey! -Dylan Fierro Like it or not, this is the subject of this list and this is what we talk about. If you don't like it, unsubscribe. John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:17:08 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Re: Boring PREAMBLE: I for one happen to think people are not all that peace-loving & god like. Actually, we're no less brutal than your run-of-the- mill vicious animal. Thinking thus, I'm interested in war as a sad, but significant facet of the human animal. MAIN QUESTION: In particular, I'm wondering if anyone would like to elaborate on the action at Minsk, especially the specific armored Russain & German vehicles, their strengths & weaknesses (you can even include gastank size and mile-per gallon and any other details, if so desired). Any comments or insights would be read with enthusiasm. Never bored, Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:29:09 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: I like Ike In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:13:29 -0600 from I think the important fact from Bill Hubers mailfile and mine (very good analysis Bill) is that Generalship is very much an art form that is open to subjective interpetation. A person who is of the cautious nature may very well appreciate Monty's style and leadership qualities. The same person may detest the tactical style of a Patton or Rommel. I think we should not be quick to jump on someone who has a different view than ours. I would on the other hand hope that these views could be expressed with rationale and reasoning. Also there is a natural tendacy (sp) to base perceptions on a limited number of episodes or sources. I based my knowledge of Rommel on only several readings. Without knowing that he planned to supplement his supplies from captured stores, his attitude towards logistics could seem quite cavalier. Finally there is always a problem with definitions, one might feel that Rommels use of intercepted radio messages detracted from his generalship by giving him an unseen and unearned advantage, whereas others might say that intercepting and using the radio messages is exactly what made him a better general. Its all subjective. In the end, no matter how annoying these discussions get, I usually end up learning something and thats why I enjoy this discussion list so much. Ron Babuka ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 06:55:13 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Boring dreary details In-Reply-To: <9402250138.AA09557@agaviion.agfx.com> Carey asks the question "what does it matter what Ike's priorities were..." Answer: IMHO, yes, it matters much in terms of how soon the horrible episode of WWII could be ended. I understand how preoccupation with details and weapon systems may seem trivial to some, but people who make a study of WWII often do so at all levels; philosophical to tactical. That's what makes this listserv so interesting. As a broader comment, I would suggest a reading of John Keegan's new book the History of Warfare. He studies primitive (non-industrial) and ancient warfare techniques and compares them to modern day warfare. A simplistic synopsis is that he finds that in the past, cultural approaches to warfare between tribes, clans, etc. was ritualized, and often left an "out" for the defeated which enabled them to survive as a unit, while still resolving the issues that brought the conflict in the first place. He argues that modern warfare, which destroys totally, is an exception to the thousands of years of conflict which precedes it. I'm sure I didn't do justice, so read and judge for yourselves. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:05:02 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Ausland Subject: POL: GREETINGS, OLYMPICS, HITLER Oslo, February 25. This is a reply to the following message: From: Michael Cotter Subject: Re: POL: CONQUERING THE NEUTRALS P. S. Good to hear from you John; hope you're enjoying a front-row seat at the Olympics. B=) PPS--Yes, I know that this is going out to the whole list......... Michael Cotter Documents Librarian, Joyner Library East Carolina University, Greenville NC 27858 919/757-6533; email: LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET REPLY: Thanks, Michael, for your encouragement. While I have not gone to Lillehammer, the TV is filled with the Olympics. Norwegians are loving all this publicity, even though not all of them are happy about the prospect of all those tourists who will come here as a result. What do the Olympics have to do with WWII? I just read that King Harald V will present the gold medal to the winner of the 50 kilometer cross country, IF he is Norwegian. This required, however, the approval of the President of the Olympics, because the rules were changed after Hitler exploited the Berlin Olympics for political purposes. (I know this is thin, but it is the best I can do.) Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:10:30 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References Stan Koper writes: > ... I hope this is not > too "off topic", but I'm curious about the fact that I seem to > see a lot of references to "Kelly's Heroes" in this list. Is > there some reason why that particular film seems to be so admired? > I don't see references to other fine war films, such as "Attack", > "Merrill's Marauders", "The Victors", or "Castle Keep". As the great Satchmo responded about jazz: If you gotta ask, you'll never know! Seriously, though, the movie appeals to me on several levels. First, it's a comedy. A comedy of WWII -- think about it. The movie successful portrays unusual individuals in an unusual circumstance set in a time period that was anything but comedic. It doesn't rely on getting its laughs from portraying the Germans as idiots ala "Hogan's Heroes." The characters are wonderfully bizarre and the writers gave them such great lines. That alone puts this movie in a class by itself. The casting of the movie was nothing short of excellent: Sutherland as Oddball, O'Conner as the General, Rickles as Crap Game, etc. Then, as you noted, there is the hardware. Someone associated with the movie felt that it was worth the effort to have faux and not-so-faux German AFVs to enhance the action: Hanomags, Kubelwagens, Tigers. I never tire of watching it! -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin' kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:37:55 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Boring Comment for Carry Stephens, I have used Antony Sutton's and Carroll Quigley's books for years but don't see the point of mentioning them in connection with thinking our discussion of World War II is somehow off base. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:44:28 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Command Structures From Monte's request about a reading list on command structures, I am not sure what is desired, discussion of the organizational structures themselves, or of the biographies of the people who inhabited them. If it is the former, then for Russia one of the best sources is the War Department technical manual TM 30-430 _Handbook on USSR Military Forces_ printed in November 1945 from material supplied by captured German intelligence officers who worked on it in Virginia. It is as close to definitive as you can get from a western source. I reprinted it about 15 years ago, so you should be able to find a copy somewhere. The other best source are the three volumes John Erickson wrote about the Soviet High Command and the Road to Stalingrad and Road to Berlin. Monte - please be a bit more descriptive of what you are seeking. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:32:00 CDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Roger Safian Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References Stan, > As a guilty party, I won't comment on that. I hope this is not > too "off topic", but I'm curious about the fact that I seem to > see a lot of references to "Kelly's Heroes" in this list. Is > there some reason why that particular film seems to be so admired? I can't speak for the list, but for myself I can say I find Joe's "Kelly's Heros" quotes delightful. I'm sure I'm not the only one who appriciates the humor of the film. A few people on the list are personalities linked to certain topics...and "Big" Joe is linked to "Kelly's Heros". Just a little fun that's all. Roger Crapgame - "What could be more important than 16 million bucks?" Oddball - "You come around tonight Crapgame and we'll show you" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 08:54:16 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Swiss Air Force One account I recall asserted that after one of the air-space incursions by the Luftwaffe, the Germans gave the Swiss six Me109s as compensation -- only they proved to be in hopelessly poor mechanical condition. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:04:20 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: IKE (decoded) General Dwight D. Eisenhower had the respect of every officer under his command during WW2 -- especially the disparate Allied commanders. Ike's main strength was his diplomacy. Few others could have dealt so effecitively with that disparate gaggle of touchy subordinates from a dozen different countries that formed the Allies in Europe. The role of Supreme Commander did not (and still does not) require fire-eaters like a Patton, a careful tactician like Monty, or a chauvinist like deGaulle. Ike's role was to *co-ordinate*. he did it superbly, and left alegacy of affection for his memory as a person, too. Incidentally, retrospection has given Montgomery a mistakenly bad rap for Caen. The slowness of the breakthrough there had little to do with any failing on Monty's part -- it had everything to do with the stubborn fighting ability of the Germans. Eisenhower said afterwards -- "A yard gained at Caen was like a mile gained anywhere else." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 11:10:03 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Boring > Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics > of this most > vicious of wars? Does it really matter how much a B-26 costs, who > Ike delegated > authority to, or where his priorities were? The fact that humans > murdered each > other and Mother Earth on a mass scale from 1939 to 1945 is a result > of a great > spiritual sickness that goes back thousands of years to when warrior > cultures > came into being. > The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and > peace. Zow! My gut reaction was to suggest you subscribe to sweetness&love-l but that would not be very helpful and I do wish to post helpful things. > My intent is for all of us to look at ourselves and > see that we > have opted to be led, instead of realizing our full god-like > potential that are > stifled by obsolete beliefs. I think we have some common ground here. Our goal (well, mine anyway) is to discuss this event so as to learn the essence of it so as to recognize its origins and maybe be in position to prevent a reoccurrence. I am certain that nobody on this list wants anything other than a world of love and peace but while ugliness exists in the world there will have to be those of us who learn of its nature so as to cure it. Platitudes of Godliness and frolicking barefoot in sunny fields of daisies won't make the neo-nazi movement and other hate groups go away. We blew the Garden of Eden deal a long time ago and now we have to earn our way back in. We are not such bad guys and we don't think we are boring. Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 12:48:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:11:00 PST from On Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:11:00 PST Carey Stephens said: > >The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and peace.We have I think not. In recorded history, there are only a few years when someone hasn't been fighting someone somewhere on the planet. >. . . . Who do you think armed Hitler? Who really built the Soviet Union? >It's not as if Germany suddenly burst out of a stifling depression(people were >carrying huge baskets of Reichmarks just to buy some food in the 20s) into a >great industrial/military power without some major help. Do the firms of Brown >Brothers, Harriman or Guaranty Trust come to mind? Find out what they were No, they don't. Germany had been a major industrial power for 50 years when the Depression came along. The physical plant was there, after all. After the "coordination" of industry & labor, not much would have been needed to get the plants turning over again. BTW, the hyperinflation of '23 has nothing at all to do with the Depression of '30. >I hope Im not attacked and vilified by people with very entrenched opinions or >philosophies. Well, to be perfectly honest, your own opinions seem a tad entrenched to me.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 11:01:43 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Dennis E. Sparks" Subject: Swiss AF During the all too brief interval between the end of the Spanish Civil War and the beginning of WWII, the Messerschmitt Bf 109 was a highly sought after commodity. As badly as the Luftwaffe wanted the new fighter, a number of them were diverted to foreign air forces. Yugoslavia purchased about 75 early Bf 109Es, paying for them with both cash and raw materials. The Soviets were allowed to purchase a few (2?), and the Swiss purchased about 30. These sales were made to bring in scarce foreign cash, and to secure the manganese, cobalt, etc. needed for high grade steels. The Swiss aircraft were again early "E" models, roughly equivalent to Bf 109E-1 to E-3s, with some alterations made in armament. The last few of the Swiss Bf 109Es weren't delivered until after the start of the war. Because of identification problems, many of the Swiss fighters were eventually painted with large red and white stripes covering most of the wing surface. (American bomber gunners tended to shoot at anything smaller than a bomber, and worry about identifying the target later, if at all.) As Emmanuel Gustin pointed out, later in the war the Swiss were allowed to purchase a dozen more later model Bf 109s (I believe they were Bf 109G-6s). A Bf 110G night fighter had gotten lost, or was damaged, and landed in Switzerland. The Germans of course would have preferred to get the Bf 110 back, but the Swiss were unwilling to release an interned aircraft. The Allies wanted the chance to examine the Bf 110's radar sets, so the Germans and Swiss reached a compromise. The aircraft was destroyed in the presence of German officials in exchange for the right to purchase a dozen Bf 109s. The Swiss used these aircraft until about 1948, when they were grounded due to a lack of spare parts. The Swiss also operated a small number of French-built Morane Saulnier MS 410s, an export version of the MS 406 fighter. During the course of the war, the Swiss repaired and test flew several Allied aircraft. A number of interned aircraft had Swiss insignia and red/white i.d. stripes painted on them and were ferried to holding depots, but the aircraft were not used operationally. Dennis E. Sparks sparks@caer.uky.edu Lexington, Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:32:56 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jesse carnes Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:10:30 -0500 from ...and that classic line by the late Telly Savalas : 'But Captain ... there's no broads ... there's no booze ... there's no action!' Jesse Carnes notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu BTW, where can I get personnel info. on 8th AF units? I have had some conversation with Jim Verinnis [co-pilot] of the 'Memphis Belle' fame. I have also done some studying on Manny Klette. Did more missions than any other person in the 8th. 91 to be exact! Why not 92 or more? Hostilities ceased. Any info. on Col. Klette, for I find him truly a larger-than-life hero, from what I have gathered. He is now deceased. Sad. Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 12:58:20 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Why I detest Ike Hello, all! Chuck Weckesser really has started a debate here that I want to add my two cents' worth to. I wrote this yesterday, but I don't think it went out. Here goes again. I will take this by parts, and some of what I will say has already been posted. Here goes anyway! Chuck questioned the integrity of General Eisenhower. This is very judgmental and I don't think the facts support this. General Eisenhower had a proven track record as head of the War Plans Section of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Ike was liked and above all respected. In every task assigned him, including writing up a manual for the War Graves Commission after World War I, he did a fine job. Whatever else you can say about Ike, he was conscientious. I agree that General Marshall sponsored Ike, if you will, but Marshall was not an easy man to please. Ike had impressed Marshall with his expertise, his ability to think on his feet effectively and certainly had high regard for his ability to get things done. Ike had a proven record as Chief of War Plans, as an effective organizer during the great Louisiana manouvers of 1938, and the fact that Ike had passed out top of his class at Command and Staff College. Ike was an effective leader who commanded the respect of all who knew him. I would also remind you, Chuck, that General Pershing took Marshall under his wing, much as Marshall did with Ike. Marshall owed much of his career advancement to General Pershing. FDR did not give Ike his job based on his political acumen. Quite the contrary. Ike had little of that. Ike had a proven record as successfully commanding the Torch landings, and he was the only Allied leader who had personal experience in doing that. Ike had the ability to work effectively with people of differing backgrounds and, above all, differing cultures. That was no mean task, I can assure you. Regarding the McCarthy era, there wasn't much Ike could do publicly for General Marshall, without becoming embroiled in that debate. To have done so would have been politically inadvisable, in that such involvement in this debate would have caused more controversy that could have weakened Ike's presidency. Regarding the capabilities of Montgomery as field commander, I highly recommend you read "The Desert Generals" by Corelli Barnett who goes into great detail on Montgomery's style of generalship, and, if you read that account, I think you would see Montgomery for what he was and from where he was coming from. Even FM Rommel had no respect for that man. Ike didn't pay any dues. He wasn't given anything along the way, except help from time to time, particularly, at the beginning of his Army career. You must remember that Ike, just as many others at the time of the Great Depression, remained a major for 16 long years; a career for most officers. Regarding your assertion that Ike and the Allies knew that they could get to Berlin before the Russians, that may or may not be. You must remember that SHAEF was a coalition of nationalities put together to wage war against a common enemy. Ike's idea was to advance on a broad front, the idea being that not any one nationality, particularly American, would get ahead of the others, or be supported at the expense of others, despite our overwhelming contribution to that effort. A single-thrust, as espoused by Montgomery, to my mind, was used to antagonize Ike more than anything, rightly or wrongly. The taking of Berlin by Monty's forces in a single thrust would expose the flanks of that force to German reaction that could have resulted in the loss of many men, needlessly. Ike would have been remiss in his duties to have supported this idea. Your idea that Monty should have been SCAP would not have worked at all. Had Monty been in Ike's place, there would have been petty squabbling, egocentric power plays, and a complete loss of confidence in the ability of SHAEF to effectively and expeditiously to bring about the demise of Hitler. Not only that, but a consequent lowering of morale as well, both at HQ and in the field. Besides, Americans would have been most reluctant to take orders from someone other than American officers, unless it was for explicit military reasons, given the fact that the overwhelming contribution to the effort was American, i.e. equipment, forces, etc. The facts speak for themselves. Regarding the Southern Redoubt, according to Stephen Ambrose's book "Eisenhower and Berlin" there was genuine concern for this notion. Ike would have been remiss in his responsibilities to ignore such intelligence, rightly or wrongly. According to Kenneth Strong, Ike's chief of intelligence, there were indications that the Germans were massing troops in that area for a last-ditch stand. Ike did the only prudent thing he could do and that was to leave Berlin to the Russians and capture or destroy as many troop concentrations as possible. He was also aware that any land captured that was supposed to go to the Russians would have to be relinquished anyway. So why sacrifice the lives of his men, when the Russians would have to pay dearly for it anyway. That is my two cents' worth. I would appreciate a comment. Thanks. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 12:51:50 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MW Subject: Re: Boring Bill, Exactly! Great response! Yes, WWII was a dreadful experience for all involved, but to ignore that it happened just because it Was, is inviting it to happen all over again. To quote an old saying that we've all heard a million times: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Some might think that the discussion over tactics and airplane prices is dull, but it is the meat and drink to trivia buffs (like myself). I have very much enjoyed it. As a final note to all, i think that is important that the generations of people who weren't alive when all this went on, hear the stories, and find out as much as possible about it. As you said, "...while ugliness exists in the world there will have to be those of us who learn of its nature so as to cure it." -Matt (vortex@uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 11:02:03 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Hepburn Subject: Re: Boring > The natural state of this planet and of human nature is love and > peace. This may be a good ideal to strive for, but it is simply not true. This planet is in constant, violent turmoil. Tectonic plates attempt to rip the crust asunder while weather forces turn mountains into molehills. The planet was created in violence, and will die in violence. On the human side, it is no better. All animals by nature are territorial, and aggressive to some extent. The higher in the food chain, the more aggression is seen. Man, arguably at the top of the food chain, is one of the most aggressive of the animal kingdom. Even being born is a violent act (just ask any new mother during labor!). So long as one man has something another man wants, we will have conflict. > Can we get away from all the dreary details and statistics of this most > vicious of wars? World War II is certainly not the "most vicious of wars" in history, or even in this century. The Vietnam war certainly tore this country apart more than most other wars; World War I (The War To End All Wars) saw more death and violence; the American Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression) was definitely more bloody. Only by studying these events can we hope to understand the issues leading us up to, and in to, the culmination known as War. Why does it sound so ludicrous asking us not to discuss WWII in a discussion list dedicated to discussing WWII? --- Alan Hepburn "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation National Semiconductor of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any Santa Clara, Ca form of self-gratification." alan@berlioz.nsc.com Zbigniew Brzezinski ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:17:06 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Re: I like Ike Hello, Ron! I appreciated very much your post. Thank you for it, and you are right on target. I would highly recommend you read Corelli Barnett's book "The Desert Generals" which goes into much detail on the Monty's generalship and leadership style. That is the best treatment I have seen on that. Thank you very much. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:19:00 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Re: Boring Hello, Ken! Your post is right on. There is nothing boring on this list. I just wish more people would chime in. Thanks. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:56:37 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jesse carnes Subject: Manny Klette I put a comment into a 'Kelley's Heros' post, but I would like to ask again : Is there a book written about Manny? He was the pilot in the 8th AF that had more missions and sortie time than any other 8th AF pilot. Truly a larger-than-life person he was! Extremely brilliant, well read, and well-educatedwas he. I have some information on his life from Frank Donafrio, head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis [Thanx Frank!] ... but would like some more if it is available. He holds a nuimber of records that have never been exceeded. By the way, I have had some conversation/dialogue with Jim Verinnis [co-pilot] of the Memphis Belle fame [again, thanx to Frank Donafrio for his help!] and he is a VERY nice guy to get-to-know. -------------------- "Kelly's Heros" ... Crapgame : "You love your mother?" Soldier : "Yehhh!" [whining] -------------------- Jesse Carnes notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:38:51 +22311624 Reply-To: Monte Turner Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Re: IKE (decoded) In-Reply-To: <01H9AK9OB6QA8WWM9F@KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU> Jim, Three Cheers, Monte ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:41:37 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Test again! This is to see if I can make contact with everyone this way. I am sorry for the inconvenience, but I am trying to resolve some difficulties here. Thanks for your patience. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:44:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ingalls Steven CPT Subject: Re: Boring You said send away, so here goes, Attacked and vilified sounds like someone entrenched in his own opinion about what's good/bad, right/wrong and preconceives those of us taking issue with your posting as the bad guys. Simply, if you think what is discussed in this forum is boring, don't subscribe anymore. We can argue with the morality of warfare all we want, but are continually asked to deal with the reality of its existence. Some of us have to even fight the wars others (who don't) determine are necessary to preserve liberties of ourselves and friends abroad. Mistakes are invariably made and our discussion of them, once the bullets stop flying and emotions have settled a bit, help ensure they aren't made the next time someone decides to start the 'go to war' ball rolling again. CPT Stephen A. Ingalls USMA West Point ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 14:32:05 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Why I detest Marshall and Monty (more). In-Reply-To: <199402250428.AA03169@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Chuck Weckesser" at Fe Chuck, Marshall's chief of intelligence, Bissell, trashed/buried Van Vliet's May 1945 Katyn report. It remained buried for some time. It is inconceivable that Marshall didn't know about the report or its explosive significance, regarding the true nature, methods, and intentions of the Soviets. McCarthy had a valid point about Soviet sympathizers in the upper echelons of the State and War departments. As to Monty, he was thorough but hardly imaginative. When he did try to be (with Arnhem), it was a disaster. I get disgusted with Eisenhower's political/careerist posturing, too, but I'd hardly hold Ma. and Mo. over him. You offer lively posts! :-) Lou Coatney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:02:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 24 Feb 1994 11:49:42 EST from I believe it's Tim Scherrer who uses this subject line in his signature file. Some of you may not realize how true this is. The French have men known as "demineur"; they engage in "demineage". As you can guess, they remove/defuse/destroy old mines & leftover ordnance. It's almost a hereditary profession: the only new demineur tend to be sons of current ones, or at the very least those who have grown up with demineur. Openings tend to be few & as a result of the sorts of accidents you can imagine. It's extensive work; each year the group removes over 1000 tons of ordnance & disposes of same, usually in deep pits, their former sites off the beaches of Normandy and Picardy being closed due to worries about water pollution. In case this isn't clear, yes, they do explode the ordnance. The shells turn up in the most amazing places sometimes: stashed in holes in country fences, for example. Someone's basement. And always, in the fields turned over for spring planting, just like the rocks constantly coming to the surface in New England farmsteads & for the same reason: the frost upheaval process. They may look pretty corroded on the outside, lulling the unwary into tossing them casually aside, but the innards are as clean as when they were encased & quite lethal. Every few years a farmer or more tragically, several school children, die from shells they often don't even see: one man built a bonfire to dispose of some rubbish & was killed by a shell several feet under the earth that blew under the heat. You can add these to the toll from WWII, and you can rest assured that they won't be the last. Because, in fact, the shells from WWII aren't nearly the worst of the problem. The action in northern France was relatively brief in 1940 and 1944. Most of these shells in Picardy and Artois and Alsace and Lorraine are from WWI. . . and the French estimate that there may be 10 million shells--or is it tons?--of ordnance still to find, still working its way upwards, still dumping mustard and chlorine gas upon the unwary, still shattering the peaceful countryside like a lightning bolt out of a clear sky. There are areas of France roped off still with warning signs, with clusters of shells, grenades and whatnot visible at a few yards distance away. Areas that may remain lethal for another 50, 100 years or more. Because, in fact, the demineurs even find shells from *1870* from time to time, every bit as active as their younger counterparts. If you ever need a reason for the study of war, this I think provides it: the debt that one generation owes to all succeeding ones, and the mess it may create for those innocents, in no way party to the action, to clean up. When you count the costs of war, do not, in totting up the moneys spent, bodies buried or broken, overlook the less obvious costs. Keep the image of the shells, working their way to the surface, forming tangled lumps of verdure in the spring time, in the forefront of your mind. I suppose this is as good an answer as any for the person who thought the list was boring. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:50:09 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life In-Reply-To: <9402252038.AA11572@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "Ken Koester" at Feb 25, 94 3:02 pm Ken, your posting reminded me of my stay at NAF Sigonella, Sicly. The "admin" area was built on a promotory over an ex-ammo dump (British Commandos had come at night and "mussed it up a bit" before the invasion). I was sunning at the pool when EDO (explosives removal team) came screaming up and ran everyone out of the area. It seems a young man had found a "war- relic" and decided to clean it up. To be exact, he had found an 88-mm. shell and was using his rock polisher to put a shine on it! (For those who aren't familiar with a rock polisher, think of a clothes-dryer with sand in it.) The lad father had seen what was going on just in time to cut the electricity and call the bomb-squad as he was on his way out of the house with his family. The war almost reached out to 1976 to take more lives. It still lurks in the dark corners of the world. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 16:24:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: Why Bin: RE: Ike is hard to read :-) I think this may be a file written on a micro, uploaded as a binary ("Bin") file rather than an ASCII file, with unfortunate results . . . Then again, I could be wrong Regards, Rob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:26:49 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Hepburn Subject: Re: Test again! I hear you lickin' chick'n Terry! regards, Alan Alan Hepburn "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation National Semiconductor of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any Santa Clara, Ca form of self-gratification." alan@berlioz.nsc.com Zbigniew Brzezinski ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 16:23:52 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: IKE (decoded) Jim, A couple points on your post. It turns out that Marshall had no "little book" with officers names in it, that has become a favorite piece of military apocrypha. Also reference Weigley and EISENHOWER'S LIEUTENANTS, one thing that struck me about his treatment of Montgomery was his favorable tone. Weigley gives Monty lots of credit for audacity and farsightedness for MARKET-GARDEN, and blames faulty execution of a good plan for its failure. I just wanted to tack on these observations to your more lengthy entry. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 21:36:35 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life ken koester reminds me of trips to that same area (Picardy etc). There is still plenty out there. One big surprise, yet to be found is a landmine in Flanders built for the Battle of Paschendaele (1917). Several were built, and detonated but 3 somehow got "lost" and were never blown for reasons that escape me. One was later found, one was detonated during a thunderstorm in the 1950s, and the other one, well, it's out there somewhere. I gotta feeling it will go off when a 24 hour period elapses without Mr. Katyn Coatney (or the Great C as he is known to Schubert fans) mentioning the K word - oops just joking Louis! :-o All battlefield guides warn against picking up this ordnance - but as has been mentioned, people still get killed. I have read that enterprising frenchmen try and chisle off the brass shell caps... Verdun is supposed to be still a wasteland where there is so much gas in the ground nothing will grow, and so much metal it is impossible to get an accurate compass reading. Bodies are still very occasionally dug up on the Somme who are identifiable and whose names are recorded (over 71,000 of them) on the monument to those who simply disappeared without trace. Whilst mailing to the congregation out there, I would like to say that I am very grateful for the stimulating "conversations" we have. I am particularly impressed with the chaps at USMA West Point who so courteously and kindly deal with all sorts of silly questions from this (comparitively speaking) ignorant "civvy". I don't think I've seen a single flame from that institution since I've been on the list. And even the chaps who discuss the price of rivets for Flying Fortresses or whatever it is (I've dispensed with my Mogadon) are still contributing to the great debate... steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** from a short story... "Late that same evening after a vain search all round the village, Mary found the dog dead in the garden. She curried the body indoors." ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:55:21 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Riegsecker Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life Larry, [deleted] >I was sunning at the pool when EDO (explosives removal team) came screaming >up and ran everyone out of the area. It seems a young man had found a "war- >relic" and decided to clean it up. To be exact, he had found an 88-mm. shell >and was using his rock polisher to put a shine on it! (For those who aren't >familiar with a rock polisher, think of a clothes-dryer with sand in it.) >The lad father had seen what was going on just in time to cut the electricity >and call the bomb-squad as he was on his way out of the house with his >family. > >The war almost reached out to 1976 to take more lives. It still lurks in the >dark corners of the world. > >Larry J About two months ago, Smithsonian Magazine had an interesting article about the problem of unexploded shells in France. Many (I want to say more than a million) acres of land are still off limits. Some number (I believe in the 30's) of farmers are killed every year when their implements hit old shells. It is the full time job of some 600 people to clean up. The article mostly talked about WWI shells, including lots of poison gas. It did mention that the occasional WWII shell turns up too. John Riegsecker (206) 756-3566 Dept of Math and Computer Science riegsecker@ups.edu University of Puget Sound ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:55:04 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lowe Barrett MAJ Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike Terry, I think you answered the mail on that one very well. Ike was the right man for the job of supreme allied commander. Just as George Patton was the right man to command 3rd Army. I think I will leave my opinions of Monty to myself, especially after he destroyed a division's worth of good paratroopers at Arnhem in an ill conceived plan. Bear Barrett F. Lowe RANGERS LEAD THE WAY! MAJ, IN Dept of Physics, West Point (e-mail: hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 14:15:01 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Riegsecker Subject: Demineurs Corrections and expansions on my last post. I should know better than to trust my memory. I found the Smithsonian article (Feb 1994) by Donovan Webster from his book Aftermath: Cleaning up a Century of World War to be published by Pantheon. Here are some of the things he has to say. 16 million acres above Verdun off limits. An estimated 12 million unexploded shells remain from WWI 630 demineurs have been killed since 1946. Since 1946 they have destroyed: 18 million artillary shells 10 million grenades 600,000 aerial bombs 600,000 underwater mines 36 farmers were killed in 1991 There are currently 123 demineurs working full time John Riegsecker (206) 756-3566 Dept of Math and Computer Science riegsecker@ups.edu University of Puget Sound ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 12:29:40 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jessie karnz Subject: 91st Bombardment Group Where could I find info on the 91st bombardment group of Bassingbourn fame ... the personnel, the planes [nose-art names includ.]? I KNOW that Frank Donafrio of Memphis KNEW Manny Klette, I wonder if Jim Verinnis of the "Memphis Belle" and the "Connecticutt Yankee" fame also knew Manny? Manny became the last CO of the 91, acc. to the info. given to me. BTW, some of the best readable and vidio sources on the war over Europe come from Motor Books of Osceola, Wisconsin ... and no I do not work for them ... they have just got a LOT of stuff in their catalog. By the way, I just picked up my present [and past] army ish. A-2 flight jacket by Cooper. Luuuuv it!! According to my twin it is totally authentic and IS presently military ish. after a 45 year hiatus until 1988. Now I have something to go with my 'crush cap'. What fun!! Jesse Carnes notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 16:31:43 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: jesse carnes From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:10:30 -0500 from I met Bill Winchell, one of the waist gunners at an airshow in the Chicago area about a year and a half ago. He's a great guy--very humble about himself, and humbled by his experiences. Anyone met any other Memphis Belle types out there? ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- ...and that classic line by the late Telly Savalas : 'But Captain ... there's no broads ... there's no booze ... there's no action!' Jesse Carnes notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu BTW, where can I get personnel info. on 8th AF units? I have had some conversation with Jim Verinnis [co-pilot] of the 'Memphis Belle' fame. I have also done some studying on Manny Klette. Did more missions than any other person in the 8th. 91 to be exact! Why not 92 or more? Hostilities ceased. Any info. on Col. Klette, for I find him truly a larger-than-life hero, from what I have gathered. He is now deceased. Sad. Jesse ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 14:43:31 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike 'Nice summation (as usual). Good number of Americans seem to keep their knowledge of FM Montgomery to his activities after D-Day. Also, his somewhat sharptongue style may blind people to his considerable abilities. What was perceived as excessive caution, even timidity, was in fact a strong reluctance to throw away men's lives. As a young officer, Monty fought through some of the worst battles on the Western Front during the First World War. Incidentally, he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for great bravery and cool-headedness under fire. The DSO was very rarely awarded to a mere lowly Captain, as he then was. His WW One experiences of wholesale slaughter colored his every future decision. Monty's prickly personality, what he "said", has hidden what he actually *did*. I read a couple of cheerfully ignorant comments on this list that bears that out. One armchair critic accused Montgomery of "bogging down the troops in Normandy in slow bocage fighting". Matter of fact, the bocage hedgerows had been there for a century or two before Monty arrived. Second comical comment was to the effect that "the Middle East was only a sideshow." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 17:45:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes R... Jesse asks about 8th Air Force associations and personnel - This is one of the most incredibly active WWII veterans groups. there are chapters in most states. I have the full list. But the head chapter is run by Mr Edward A. Kueppers, Jr. Post Office Box 7215, St .Paul Minn. 55107. He publishes the 8th AF news - phone 800 833-1942. Hope this helps John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:04:36 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike "Ike" was a man of great personal dignity, very restrained in his behaviour. *Then* he met Kay Summersby, a British woman assigned as his driver. A romance bloomed, and Kay apparently put the old sparkle back in Ike's eye. He had her transferred into the US Army, with the rank of lieutenant. Eisenhower apparently grew so besotted with the red-headed Kay, he was deermined to divorce Mamie and marry his new patootie. The folk-lore has it that Gen. Marshall told Ike that if he attempted to do so, he (Ike) would be "frogmarched onto the next plane back to the States". Summersby wrote a book about her romance, just before she died a few years ago. Interesting fresh angle on Ike the man. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:11:56 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Shirley N. Daniels" Subject: McCook Air Force Base Would like information on McCook Air Foce Base in Nebraska during WWII time period. If anyone served there or has relevant data just let me know. This is my first time on listing. Hope it works. Thanks - S. Daniels ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:05:43 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Shirley N. Daniels" Subject: Camp Forrest, TN Would anyone having any information on Camp Forrest or Tulluhoma Bombing Range please contact sndaniel at Savanna, IL. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:13:50 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Shirley N. Daniels" Subject: Scottsbluff Air Base I'M also searching for information on Scottsbluff Air Base during WWII. Anyone that can help please send a note. Thanks - S. Daniels ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:21:02 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: Re: Boring In-Reply-To: ; from "MW" at Feb 25, 94 12:51 pm Matt, > > Bill, > > Exactly! Great response! Yes, WWII was a dreadful experience for all > involved, but to ignore that it happened just because it Was, is inviting > it to happen all over again. To quote an old saying that we've all heard > a million times: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to > repeat it." Yes. > > Some might think that the discussion over tactics and airplane prices is > dull, but it is the meat and drink to trivia buffs (like myself). I have > very much enjoyed it. Yes, *and* not all such consideration is *trivia*l. For instance, knowing the technical aspects of RAF/Luftwaffe equipment; or of the Royal Navy's antisubmarine units; or of the IJN's torpedos in December 1941; or of night navigation, Norden bombsights, et cetera, is IMO crucial to an understanding of the "big picture." One needn't be an aeronautical engineer to understand the 'Wizard War' but if you don't know what the weapons were technically capable of, you can't begin to determine if they were optimally (or even wisely) used. > > As a final note to all, i think that is important that the generations of > people who weren't alive when all this went on, hear the stories, and find > out as much as possible about it. As you said, "...while ugliness exists > in the world there will have to be those of us who learn of its nature so > as to cure it." > > -Matt (vortex@uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu) > Regards, Rob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 16:17:49 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Harris Subject: Re: Boring "Spiritual sickness"?..."Love and Peace"..."God-like higher selves"...I don't know where this particular bit of philosophical naivete originated from but I may have a little bit of news for the individual who posted it. I defy him or her to find one signigicantly lengthy period of time in the recorded history of the human species where humans were not butchering each other at one place or another for one reason or another. It was going on then; it's going on now. And I don't really think it is going to matter how many spiritually healthy, god-like peace lovers we have running around, war, as sad as it may be, is going to be with us for a long time to come. Man is a predator. We always have been and I can see no reason whatsoever to believe that this aspect of our innate nature is going to change any time in the evolutionary future. The technology of destruction changes, but our basic motivations remain the same. In other words, there isn't any massive difference between the caveman beating his enemy over the head with a club and the pilot of a B-52 dropping bombs on his enemy's head. Different weapons, same behavior. And I also found it interesting that someone went to the trouble to research the amount of money spent on the various WWII bombers. This is a WWII discussion list after all. What should we do? Spend our time wringing our hands and lamenting the admittedly tragic loss of life in the war? That's not going to bring anyone back. We might as well group together and learn something from it. No offense intended, by the way. Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in. ---Terry L. Harris Department of History Eastern Kentucky University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:29:43 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MW Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References Jesse - I don't know if this will be helpful or not, re: your search for info on 8th AF units, but the National Geographic Mag. for this month had a 20+ page article on the 8th -- it probably won't be as detailed as you're looking for, but it's worth the 15 minutes to read, IMHO. -Matt (vortex@uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:30:36 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MW Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References Jesse - "this month" being March in this case -- sorry. -Matt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 20:20:51 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life In-Reply-To: <199402252206.AA03333@tiesnet.ties.k12.mn.us> What a wonderful thread. I'm going to the library tomorrow to grab the Smithsonian article. Those figures are so stunning. I need a topic for a sample document for a publishing class I'm teaching -- now I *know* I've got one that should be interesting. Any other cites for info on this topic? Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 10:00:59 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike In-Reply-To: <9402252327.AA43205@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Fri, 25 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > "Ike" was a man of great personal dignity, very restrained in his behaviour. > *Then* he met Kay Summersby, a British woman assigned as his driver. > A romance bloomed, and Kay apparently put the old sparkle back in Ike's > eye. He had her transferred into the US Army, with the rank of lieutenant. > Eisenhower apparently grew so besotted with the red-headed Kay, he was > deermined to divorce Mamie and marry his new patootie. > The folk-lore has it that Gen. Marshall told Ike that if he attempted to > do so, he (Ike) would be "frogmarched onto the next plane back to the States". > Summersby wrote a book about her romance, just before she died a > few years ago. Interesting fresh angle on Ike the man. > What does this have to do with Ike's military or political competence? If I had a penny for every soldier (make that "officer") who strayed during WWII (one war is enough), I could....... (you can guess). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 18:30:27 -0230 Reply-To: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: OLAF Subject: French demineurs (bomb disposal) Funny this subject should come up (or perhaps not so funny; I'm sure others read the same periodicals); the February 1994 issue of the journal _Smithsonian_ carried an article by Donovan Webster entitled "Out there is a bomb with your name" (pp. 26-34, 36, 37). It provides a very sobering description of the work carried out today -- and for a long time still to come -- clearing out the live ammo left over in France, mostly from WW I, but occasionally from WWII. It includes artillery shells, gas shells, bombs, mortar shells, you name it, it's all still there. Nor is this stuff necessarily buried and hidden. Tons of the stuff were stacked in heaps and left there when the war ended. Webster accompanied a crew working one area; he says that the piles of ammo were readily visible, and after a full day's work, it was hard to tell that they'd even made a dent on what was there. Every year, people continue to die when shells go off -- farmers who accidentally plough them up, a group of hunters one winter who inadvertently lit a campfire over a cache of ammo, and, of course, demineurs themselves. It's a fascinating article and, as I said, a sobering reminder that *every* war continues for generations. Just think of the millions of mines still maiming and killing today in Kuwait, Angola, Cambodia/Kampuchea (I doubt whether those who die care what it's called), Afghanistan... Ironically, those who criticize others for studying war would presumably prefer that we ignore this, too! Personally, I liken the study of war to studying any piece of machinery: the better you understand how it works, the better your chances of learning how to control it. Olaf Janzen Dept. of History Sir Wilfred Grenfell College Corner Brook, Newfoundland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 00:39:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Notice of military history meet I have been asked to post the following notice: Announcement of the 1994 Society for Military History Meeting The 1994 annual meeting of the Soviety for Military History (formerly the American Military Institute) will be held from April 8 to 10, 1994, in Bethesda, Maryland. The theme of the meeting will be "Civil-Military Relations." Non-SMH members can obtain information about meeting registration, accomodations, and the program from: The Program Chairman, SMH 1994 Meeting, P.O. Box 4762 McLean VA 22103. To this I can add that according to the preliminary program there are several sessions with quite a few papers devoted to World War II or the period immediately prior, including two papers that will interest many of the list members, on the depiction of the war in major films.. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 00:40:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Armor division Lou and several others have been asking about WWII armor divisions. Here is the table of contents of the General Board report. John Sloan THE GENERAL BOARD United States Forces, European Theater ORGANIZATION, EQUIPMENT AND TACTICAL EMPLOYMENT OF THE ARMORED DIVISION MISSION; Prepare Report and Recommendations on Organization, Equipment and Tactical Employment of the Armored Division. The General Board was established by General Orders 128, Headquarters, European Theater of Operations, US Army, dated 17 June 1945, as amended by General Orders 182, dated 7 August 1945 and General Orders 312, dated 20 November 1945, Headquarters United States Forces, european Theater, to prepare a factual analysis of the strategy, tactics, and administration employed by the United States forces in the European Theater. File: R 320.2/3 Study Number 48 TABLE OF CONTENTS CHAPTER 1 GENERAL. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -1- CHAPTER 2 MISSIONS ASSIGNED TO ARMORED DIVISIONS IN THE EUROPEAN THEATER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -2- CHAPTER 3 ACTUAL COMBAT FORMATIONS OF ARMORED DIVISIONS IN THE EUROPEAN THEATER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -5- CHAPTER 4 HISTORICAL EXAMPLES OF THE EMPLOYMENT OF ARMORED FORMATIONS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -7- CHAPTER 5 OPINIONS OF AVAILABLE COMMANDERS OF ARMOR. . . . . . . . . -22- CHAPTER 6 CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . -24- APPENDIX 1 TYPICAL TACTICAL FORMATIONS OF ARMORED DIVISIONS, EUROPEAN THEATER. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -25- APPENDIX 2 TYPICAL TACTICAL FORMATION OF LIGHT ARMORED DIVISION APPENDIX 3 TYPICAL TACTICAL FORMATION OF HEAVY ARMORED DIVISION APPENDIX 4 CHART OF OPINIONS, SENIOR OFFICERS APPENDIX 5 OPINIONS OF JUNIOR COMBAT OFFICERS APPENDIX 6 CONFERENCE ON ORGANIZATION AND EQUIPMENT OF THE ARMORED DIVISION. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . -35- APPENDIX 7 CHART OF PROPOSED ARMORED DIVISION APPENDIX 8 CHARTS OF PROPOSED COMPANY, TROOP AND BATTERY ORGANIZATIONS APPENDIX 8 CHART OF POSSIBLE TACTICAL FORMATION OF PROPOSED ARMORED DIVISION ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 00:41:03 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Armor div WWII Lou Coatney was asking about the organzation of the armored div during WWII. I will post an extract from the General Board report on the division. ACTUAL COMBAT FORMATIONS OF ARMORED DIVISIONS IN THE EUROPEAN THEATER (9 June 1944 to 10 May 1945) 5. Source. In order to obtain information concerning the actual tactical formations used by the various armored divisions, after action reports and combat observer interviews were studied. These reports were available on all armored divisions in the European Theater with the exception of the 20 Armored Division, reports on which had not been tabulated and filed. 6. Type. The vast differences in strength and organization of the heavy and light divisions make them incommensurable. Consequently their organizations are presented and discussed separately. 7. Heavy Divisions. a. Both the 2 and 3 Armored Divisions operated in the European Theater under the control of the First U.S. Army until November 1944, when 2 Armored Division was shifted to the Ninth U.S. Army. Both divisions had an antiaircraft and a tank destroyer battalion attached and these same battalions remained with their respective divisions. One additional armored field artillery battalion (105mmSP) was attached to each division during combat operations. Medium artillery was attached in varying quantities, but normally at least one battalion of either howitzers or guns was attached in combat. Infantry varying in quantity from a battalion to a regiment was attached whenever corps made it available. b. Both divisions operated with three combat commands, the third one being designated CCR . In each division the headquarters of the organic infantry regiment functioned as the headquarters of CCR. Although improvised, CCR was a third fighting combat command and was utilized exactly as were CCA and CCB. c. Combat commands consisted essentially of two tank battalions, one organic armored infantry battalion, one infantry battalion (whenever an infantry regiment was attached to the division) and tank destroyer, engineer and antiaircraft elements. Medical and maintenance elements were attached or in support. Normally two combat commands were committed to action and the third was held in reserve. Each forward combat command was normally directly supported by two armored field artillery battalions and the medium artillery was in general support. d. Usually each combat command operated with two task forces or columns. A typical task force consisted of a tank battalion, an infantry or armored infantry battalion, tank destroyer and engineer platoons, directly supported by an armored field artillery battalion. e. Tables of Organization provided for a light tank battalion and two medium tank battalions per armored regiment. Prior to landing on the European Continent both divisions reorganized the armored regiments so that each tank battalion consisted of a headquarters company (containing assault guns and mortars), two medium tank companies, and one light tank company. f. Attached infantry was transported on tanks and in 2 1/2 ton trucks. 8. Light Divisions. a. Light armored divisions operated under the control of all four U.S. Armies in the European Theater, as well as the Second British Army. b. Attachments to light armored divisions were practically the same as attachments to heavy division. c. These divisions also operated with three combat commands. Most used CCR as a third fighting combat command; others kept it primarily in reserve, rotating troops through it from CCA and CCB. Wherever possible the headquarters of CCR was increased to practically the size of the headquarters of CCA and CCB. Armored group headquarters and headquarters companies when attached, were utilized for this purpose. d. As in the heavy divisions, combat commands of the light divisions usually operated with two task forces; one consisted of a tank battalion (less one medium tank company), a rifle company of armored infantry, and tank destroyer and engineer platoons; the other task force would usually consist of an armored infantry battalion (less one rifle company), one medium tank company and tank destroyer and engineer platoons. When additional infantry was attached to the division, the proportion of infantry in the task forces was correspondingly increased. Armored artillery was either attached to or in direct support of each combat command. 9. Preliminary Conclusions. From the above and a study of Appendices 1, 2, and 3 the following preliminary conclusions may be drawn: a. Antiaircraft and tank destroyer battalions were, to all intents and purposes, organically a part of the armored divisions. b. Attachment of an additional armored field artillery battalion was so frequent that the number of light battalions was constantly four per division. c. One or more medium artillery battalions were normally attached to an armored division. d. The attachment of an infantry regiment to armored divisions brought the ratio of tank battalions to infantry battalions in heavy divisions to 1 to 1 and light divisions to 1 to 2. e. The task forces of light divisions approximated the strength of a battalion and contained tank companies and infantry companies. The task forces of the heavy divisions approximated the strength of a small regiment and contained a tank battalion and an infantry battalion. Each division normally operated with six task forces. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 18:56:04 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life In-Reply-To: <9402252111.AA11241@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "Larry & Kim Jewell" at Feb 25, 94 03:50:09 pm > > Ken, your posting reminded me of my stay at NAF Sigonella, Sicly. The "admin" > area was built on a promotory over an ex-ammo dump (British Commandos had > come at night and "mussed it up a bit" before the invasion). Well, if we're going to do a "guess what I found" thing, I have this story. When I was in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea in '80-'81, I was guardpost commander for the fence along the American sector of the DMZ. There were numerous minefields on both sides of the fence and people periodically blundered into them and blew themselves up (including the odd deer, which was quickly butchered by the ROK mess personnel). Immediately behind the raked path, behind the fence was a latrine. The latrine actually sat inside a salient in a minefield behind the path. The latrine was surrounded by razor wire and engineer tape on three sides, which also demarcated the minefield. A path led through the "cleared" portion to the latrine. One morning after a particularlary heavy monsoon rain, I finished my initial tour of the guard posts along the fence and stopped to hit the latrine. I got about half way down the path toward it, when I noticed something sitting in the middle of the path. It was an M16 bounding anti-personnel mine. This piqued my interest, so I looked around, both on the path and inside the minefield. There were numerous M16 mines lieing on their sides both in the minefield and on the path. The heavy rains had uncovered many of them and washed at least on onto the path or uncovered it. I carefully exited the path and called company headquarters to notify them of the new "features" of the latrine. Later that morning, I again checked the guardposts. This time there was no more path leading toward the latrine. Instead new razor wire and engineer tape had been placed across the former entrance, leaving an orphaned latrine sitting in the middle of a marked minefield.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 04:04:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Help-Pay Fortune To Read WW2 Posts Dear WW2 Colleagues, I am a subscriber to CompuServe. Depending on the size of the message I receive from Internet (and I only belong to a couple of lists), I pay anywhere between .15 cents and .95 cents to read *each* message from the WW2 list. Accordingly, I will no longer read ANY message under 5 K in size as it indicates to me that little thought went into writing the post and is thus not worth my money. However, I will answer all mail sent to me as private e-mail, regardless of size. I have to cut expenses and the fee's I pay just read what you guy's write (and it's great stuff too!) is incredible. I wish there was another way for me to access Internet other than CompuServe that is simple and easy. As in, I dial a number and I am into the system. If someone can help me in this regard, please e-mail me privately. My e-mail address is 71233.677@compuserve.com I now have an internet address at AOL. It is Prf Chuck@aol.com I am now sure if the second address will work yet but give it a try and I will acknowledge your mail. Prices are cheaper there so I will try to rely on AOL more. But I am deleting many messages on topics that interest me because the message *size* is too small to warrant the quarter. Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 05:34:04 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lowe Barrett MAJ Subject: Re: Test again! >This is to see if I can make contact with everyone this way. I am >sorry for the inconvenience, but I am trying to resolve some >difficulties here. > >Thanks for your patience. > >Terry > >Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College >P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 >fax 806-371-5370 > Terry, Read you five by five here, Barry Barrett F. Lowe RANGERS LEAD THE WAY! MAJ, IN Dept of Physics, West Point (e-mail: hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 14:16:12 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Sea mines still in Icelandic waters In-Reply-To: <9402251757.AA03717@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Ken Koester" at Feb 25, 94 12:48 pm Hey all (or those few/none interested :) My father who is captain of a big factory trawler today once captured (not willingly! :) a huge WWII Sea mine in his ship's trawl. Fortunately for him, his crew and our family the thing had some time ago hit something and had a hole in it that the "ingredients" had leaked out of. So, the mine at that time was just a huge heap of scrap and was dropped into the sea away from fishing grounds. One other incident is quite funny actually; One German WWII mine washed ashore near some farm and the farmer who found it got all the nearest neighbours to roll it onto his lawn by the spikes on it!!! Then they started hitting it with sledgehammers :) Finaly one of them got some brains and called our Coast Guard and they screamed in the phone for them to stop all further experiments with it! :) Well, the farmers then just decided to roll the thing back down into the beach!! Finaly the CG bomb experts came and blew the thing up. Makes one wonder how the hell the farmers survived as the mine was active :) Just a little info here :) Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:00:36 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Ausland Subject: DEMINEURS Thanks to John Riegsecker for calling attention to the Donovan Webster article in Smithsonian. I have asked the Reference Center at the American Embassy here (which has a BBS) if it has or can get me a copy. Offhand, the figure of 630 demineurs killed strikes me as low. It is my understanding about 100 people were killed just removing the mines, etc. from the Huertgen Forest after WWII. Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:31:34 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Chuck, try this! Chuck, I'm sending this to you and the list. If you pay for mail by the piece you should consider the digest option. This allows you to get a whole day's posting in one block. The digests come with an index so you can check to see if any of the subjects are of interest before downloading the whole file. To turn the digest option on, send mail to: listserv@ubvm.bitnet with any subject line and body containing only: set wwii-l digest If you find you don't like the digest mode, send: set wwii-l mail to return to individual postings. I've had experience with members on Compuserve and find that their mailboxes tend to implode rather rapidly under the volume of mail from WWII-L. I do however, disagree that size equates to value, since a terse answer can save bandwidth and is easier to read, at times. (As the old saying goes, "No generalization is completely true, not even this one." ;-) Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 14:57:44 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: <9402251948.AA10037@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Terry Moore" at Feb 25, 94 1:41 pm Hey all, I might be lighting a fuse here but here it goes :) In Duncan Kyle's Black Camelot (fiction I know :) he tell about a US corporation that owns huge stocks on German military production. Also werent there some areas or plants on Ruhr that didnt get hit or even targeted? I think that Focke Wulf has been mentioned in such statement. Another, not-so-serius-matter, is this: are the rumor's true that Coca Cola was produced in the Reich? :) Interesting if it is true :) Bye for now Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: Addr: SOC.HISTORY.WAR In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Feb 94 18:31:06 -0500. <9402230751.AB14563@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > > Think of Usenet as a cocktail party/frat party in a museum/library and you > have an idea of the happy chaos that goes on there. Have the cocktail/frat party going on at the same time that you have a mudwrestling/spouseswapping party that is co located with the daily press conferences of the NRA, Right to Life, Right to Choose, Futurists of America. Just to ensure that there is plenty of noise add 10 computer clubs and 7 Rock Bands.. Or just think of getting the Sunday NY Times, Washington Post, Rolling Stone, Byte, Playboy, Hustler, six academic journals, every day. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 10:53:37 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: 91st Bombardment Group The Directory of Veteran's associations lists the current contact person for the 91st Bomb Group Memorial Association as Mr Asay B. Johnson, 590 Aloha Drive, Lake Havasu City, Arizona ,86043. They publish a newsletter calle "Ragged Irregular" phone 602-453-3114 Hope this is still a current address John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 10:28:24 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Cheryl Bryant Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: <199402261458.AA26493@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> On Sat, 26 Feb 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote: > Hey all, > > I might be lighting a fuse here but here it goes :) > > In Duncan Kyle's Black Camelot (fiction I know :) he tell about > a US corporation that owns huge stocks on German military production. > Also werent there some areas or plants on Ruhr that didnt get hit or > even targeted? ... Deleted material.... ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mr. Helgason, Having lived in Menden/Sauerland in the Ruhr Valley, I have spoken with many different and interesting people concerning the topic of the Second World War. One of these men, who was a POW in Britain during most of the war spoke of worrying about his family back iun Iserlohn Germany. One day while speaking with one of the British Officers who held him captive. He relayed his concerns to the man, who went on to tell him that he need not worry about his family in Iserlohn, because the British Forces had plans for the city following the war. Sure enough, Iserlohn was spared and became an important British Military location after the end of the war. It would not surprise me to discover that the Americans would spare certain factories and cities for business considerations after the war. However, to assume that places were spared because of American backings during the war may be jumping the gun a little. I would like to hear more about this subject in any case. C.K. Bryant muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu English Department Western Illinois University ************************************************* "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit." The 62nd Rule of Acquisition ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 11:39:47 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: 91st Bombardment Group In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 25 FEB 1994 12:29:40 CST The World War II Airman's Preservation Society attempts to recreate the 91st Bomb Group. We have contacts with the 8th AF Vet's group, and also the 91st Bomb Group (H) Memorial Association, which is having it's reuinion in Oklahoma City, OK 21-24 September, 1994. I will probably be attending that event. I have some contacts--e-mail me directly, although I am going to complete my annual training tour for about a week and a half leaving Sunday. I am trying to forward my account to my other account, however I won't believe it will work until I see it. If you can;t get in touch with me any other way, call me after the 8th. I should be home then. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:50:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: books and guns My father was in the 103rd Infantry Div. in WWII which was part of the invasion of southern France. I have his divisional history but was interested in looking at other books which might talk about his divisions activities. Has anyone read "The Champagne Campaign" by Adelman and Walton (1969) or "The French Riviera Campaign of August 1944" by Wilt (1981). If so are they worth me trying to get. Second, I think the 103rd Div. was probably committed to action later in the campaign. For those who are familiar with the official histories, what would you suggest I read? Third, the public library in my community is very poorly stocked. I would appreciate it if I could get some suggestions for booksellers who work in this area; phone numbers and addresses if you can. Also, among my fathers "souveniers" from the war, he left a couple of automatic pistols. I have been interested in finding out more about them. They are certainly not German. One appears to be French and has on it: Pistolet Automatique Cal 7.65, MAB Breite' Modele D. The second seems to be Italian: has on it: Azanza Y Arrizabalaga-Modelo 1916 (presumably the 1916 model). Are there reference books which would include such arcana. Regards to all, Don Bowden Winston-Salem, NC ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:59:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: Re: 91st Bombardment Group Could you provide an address and phone number of Motor Books? Don Bowden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 15:04:28 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: POL/PROP/???/ Extent of Holocaust knowledge, pre-VE Day? I would like to get the opinions of some people on the list as to the extent of knowledge regarding the Final Solution prior to the actual overrunning of the camps. In particular, did many 'ordinary' Germans realize the scope and deliberate, planned, systematic nature of the killings? ( Please don't turn this into a "Revisionist" thread -- I have recently read 2 books by conservative popular historians. One claims that very few Germans were aware of the mass killings in the death camps in Poland, while the other says there was a vague but almost universal knowledge of the Final Solution. Can we get some objective, historical knowledge either way?) Regards, Rob regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:15:28 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: books and guns THE CHAMPAGNE CAMPAIGN is well worth a read. Good overall study of a little-known campaign. However poorly stocked your local library may be, they will surely have access to Inter-Library Loan. It's a service that does what it name implies, obtains books from libraries all over the United States and Canada. 'Suggest you nail your Head Librarian about this. Same goes for books about pistols. There's *miles* of them. Good hunting. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:23:27 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? That story about the British officer's assurance that Iserlohn was being spared from air-attack because the British had plans to use the place as a base.... Sounds a bit odd. I served in numerous British bases in Germany after the war. All of them in or near towns that were decidedly the worse for wear after Allied bombing. It is improbable that the RAF would show such exquisite restraint because of any future plans. And even so, such plans would scarcely be in the knowledge of a junior officer staffing a PW camp. Probably, the British officer was simply doing a kindness to calm the fears of the German PW about his relatives in Deutchland. Just for interst, what British base was at Iserlohn? Am not questioning the fact there may have been a base there. Just curious what the base was. Regards. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:32:32 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: POL/PROP/???/ Extent of Holocaust knowledge, pre-VE Day? It is interesting how this question keeps turning up repeatedly... how much did people know about the Nazi extermination camps, and how long before the Liberation? The simple answer is -- 10 years before. There were mentions of Dachau and Fuhlbuttel in British and Continental newspapers as early as 1936/36. 'Far as I know, in US papers, too. There were frequent statements about the Nazi extermination program by British Members of Parliament and, now and then, in British publications during the Second World War. There was a series of articles about it in the NEW YORK TIMES in 1942, as I recall. The plaintive cry, "But why didn't the Allies *do* anything about it" is raised. We did -- we liberated every concentration camp. It wasn't easy. It took time. And a lot of Allied servicement died while "doing something" about ending the Holocaust. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 17:11:59 -0500 Reply-To: jbd@osbm.state.nc.us Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Davis Subject: Greensboro, N.C. Museum I've been lurking on the WW II list for a while now and finally have something to contribute. If you are ever in the Greensboro, N.C. area this year (up until October) go by the Greensboro Historical Museum which is downtown at the corner of Davie St. and Lindsay St. They have an exhibit entitled "War Town - 1943-1946". It is really excellent. Basically it presents Greensboro as it was during the war years and also the story of the Army Air Corps basic training camp that was in Greensboro. Lot's of memorabilia, newspapers, photos, etc. They have a "typical" 1940's living room setup with an old upright radio with some old record programs coming out of it. I was very impressed with the entire exhibit and highly recommend it to anyone that gets to the area. The museum is free to the public and open 7 days a week. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Davis jbd@osbm.state.nc.us Information Resource Manager jbd@fx.net Office of State Budget and Management (919) 733-7061 116 W. Jones St. Raleigh, N.C. 27603-8005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 14:04:16 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: POL/PROP/???/ Extent of Holocaust knowledge, pre-VE Day? In-Reply-To: <9402262007.AA18166@agaviion.agfx.com> As I read this post, I was reminded of two documents whcih I saw on display recently at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: 1. As part of a section on the "White Rose", there was a leaflet distributed by Sophie and Hans Scholl in 1944, calling on the German people to protest and resist the deportation and killing of Jews. The leaflet used the figure of 300,000 Jews "murdered in the East". The White Rose was an anti-Nazi group of students and young soldiers (I think at the Univ. of Munich?). While they certainly did not know the true numbers of Jews and others killed in the camps, the evidence of their leaflet shows that the average German did know what was happening, just perhaps not the true magnitude. 2. Also at the museum, there is a letter from a Jewish organization (some natgional coordinating council, I don't remember the exact title) to the Sec. of the War Dept. , in 1944, asking that the camps be bombed, and making the comment that even tho it would result in the death of many inmates, they would all die anyway. The letter from the War Dept. declined to bomb, saying that air resources could not be reallocated. There are also aerial photos on display, showing allied recon of the area around Auschwitz; the camps and barracks are clearly visibile, even a group of people just off a train heading for the crematorium. Apparently bombing missions to "military" targets near Auschwitz were near enough for inmates to hear the explosions. So, while I don't want in any way to negate the efforts of GIs to liberate the camps and end the war, the little I have seen points to a lack of resolve at the highest levels to directly address the issue of the camps, expect as a generalized part of the final outcome of the war. Back to what the German people knew; in Peter Hoffman's "History of the German Resistance", he reports on a number of Wehrmacht officers on leave from the eastern front actually reporting their eyewitness accounts of mass killings by the SS to their superiors. In most cases they thought they had seen "out of control" actions by fanatical SS units. I think this sums up what may have been the level of knowledge among the Germans; they certainly knew killings of Jews and others went on, and on a large scale; most ignored that fact, some few tried to act on it. Ultimately, who but the direct participants could imagine the true scale and horror of the camps? Ironically, decision makers in the US War Dept., with access to recon photos and the reports filtered out of Europe about the camps, may have had more accurate knowledge about the killing factories than the average Hausfrau on the German homefront. I apologize for not being able to cite the sources about the War Dept. accurately; perhaps someone with source material handy can enlighten the discussion. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 17:38:05 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: POL/PROP: Extent of Holocaust knowledge To expand on the question I posed earlier: Paul Johnson writes in "Modern Times (Rev. Ed.)": "...Security around the death camps was elaborate...[nevertheless] millions of Germans knew that something horrible was being done to the Jews...Countless Germans heard and saw the endless trains rattling through the nights, and knew their significance, as one recorded remarks suggests:'Those damned Jews ---they won't even let one sleep at night.'There was a huge overlap between the slave system and German industry [p.419]." On the other hand, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn writes in "Leftism Revisited": "The Germans in their overwhelming majority, though fairly well acquainted with the horrors of the concentration camps, knew something of the swift mass murders. In 1947, I conducted private investigations, interviewing church leaders, and so on, and can attest to this. [p.278]...I spoke with Cardinal Count Preysing in Berlin a few weeks before his death. He assured me that neither he nor Cardinal von Galen had had any concrete facts about the extermination camps in the East . . . how many Americans knew about the manufacturing of the A-bomb, although a multitude of people were engaged in the work?[p.464]" Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn quotes on the same page George N. Shuster, former U.S. Commission of Bavaria, that if the bishops had known of the Final Solution, they would surely have protested -- since they had protested the "euthanesia" of the mentally ill. Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn proceeds to criticize the Allied governments [which he states surely knew of the extermination camps from 1943] for not having "enlightened the German people. [p.278]." I should have made more clear in my first posting: every German adult knew of the existence of concentration camps from 1935 onward. But when did most Germans learn of the existence of *extermination* camps? Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn states [p.464] that fewer than "one in 100,000 Germans knew of the extermination camps." That claim is of course fantastic, since it would mean that only 800 Germans knew of the extermination camps. Even if one accepts von Kuehnelt-Leddihn's explanation that most of the guards in the extermination camps were Eastern Europeans, it is inconceivable that the number 800 is literally accurate. Rob George regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 10:16:15 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: German POW In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Feb 94 16:45:24 -0600. <9402230735.AA14549@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > > Hi John, > > I have seen graves of German POWs that died in 47 and 48 so I know the > sick/wounded ones were here that long. There are some books about > German POWs in America that do a great job. Look up POWs, German, in > the subject section of a library card catalog. I have read three > books on the subject and can only remember the title to one _The > Killing of Corpral Kunze_ but there are others about the camps and > prisoners that would cover what you are looking for. > > It took a while to sort things out in Germany after the war too. We > repatriated our POWs quite a while before the Russians did and a lot > more of ours survived too. It was more important to bring home our > boys than to ship out a bunch of POWs at that time. Ships were > limited thanks to the U-boot waffe. > > Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil This is just a guess but we may have held off repatriating them because we did not want to add more chaos to the situation over there. The European economy was still a mess, I'm not sure what condition the food supply was in, same with housing, etc. It may have entered into the decesion that to add all those fairly healthy, unemployed men to the situation could have caused a lot of problems. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 17:09:32 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: FW-109 So today I turned on "Wings" and the show was about the role of the FW-109. Lots of great video (film) that was new and interesting. Last week there was talk about the Swedish air force buying German warplanes, the story on Wings spoke of a co-produced FW-109 that was made in Spain and had a Rolls-Royce engine. Odd to think that the same company made a motor for both the FW-109 (pre-war, of course) and the P-51. Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 18:56:51 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: Boring Hey, do we have to put up with people expressing their foolish "sixties" religious beliefs? Let's get back to history. From my studies in the subjects I've found man to be naturally bad and once in awhile he rises above himself to do something good. Now what were we discussing? Costs and design of military aircraft- good to go! Sincerely, JPN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 18:29:05 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: FW-109 Andy, I think you mean the Bf-109 or the Me-109. FW stood for Focke-Wulf, which built the Fw-190, a truly exceptional fighter. Me-109's, made by Messerschmitt, were used and built by a couple of countries after the war. Spain produced them originally under liscence (?), from Germany, who supplied airframes, but not the Damlier-Benz engines. So, the Spanish used the Hispano-Suiza HS 12-Z-89 engine, itself a modification of a French engine. After the war more were built with British Merlins. The airplane served Spain until 1958 and starred in a lot of Hollywood movies. The Cezchs also built a version of the 109 after the war. The government wanted its own source of aircraft, and the Avia plant in Prauge there were a number of airframes and spare parts. But not many DB engines. So, the Czech built planes were equipped with a Jumo 211 engine and large paddle props. Almost 500 were built between 1948 and 1951. The Czech pilots nicknamed it Mezek (Mule) because its performance was "mulish." Several were sold to Israel in 1948 and fought in the 1948 war of independence. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 18:36:16 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: POL/PROP: Extent of Holocaust knowledge For knowledge of the Holocaust in America during the war, one might want to look at Robert Ross' *So it was true*, 1980, which deals with American protestant response to German persecution of the Jews. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 20:02:34 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> --------------- Forwarded Message --------------- From: Electronic Postmaster, INTERNET:POSTMASTER@CompuServe.COM To: Chuck Weckesser, 71233,677 Date: Sat, Feb 26, 1994, 6:46 PM Subject: Problem encountered at CompuServe/Internet mail gate RE: Undeliverable Message Your message could not be delivered to the indicated receiver(s): Invalid receiver address: ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu ********** ************************ ********** Message number: 940226234440 71233.677 DHQ44-3 Sent at: 18:44 EST 26-Feb-94 Subject: Tirpitz: Sister Ship of Bismark?? Dear List Colleagues, Naval matters are not my forte, so this is a question post hoping for an answer. While I am vaguely familiar with the "sinking of the Bismark" (although I have no idea where it took place or any other details) I do recall that the Bismark had a so called "sister ship" named the Tirpitz and I am probably not spelling the name of the other ship correctly. Whatever happened to the Tirpitz after the war or was she also sunk during the war? For that matter, what happened to the German Fleet at the end of the war. Were the ships scuttled or was that a violation of the rules. If so, who received Germany's Navy? I hope someone can answer my inquiry. . . Thanks, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 20:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: I like Ike Ron and Bill, I share your opinions concerning leadership style. On the issue of McCarthy I have to throw in my two cents for what it is worth. I'm the young whipper-snapper on the list (only been around for 22 years), but I try to keep my ears open. This past Tuesday up here at Norwich we celebrated the 100th birthday of one of our most famous alumns, General Ernest Harmon. One of his grandsons told us cadets about how when he was a young officer under an incompetent superior, he got in trouble for speaking his mind. When he complained to his grandfather about it, General Harmon told him that sometimes you just have to keep your mouth shut so that you can make rank and actually take care of the problems that you have observed. This is from the general who rivaled Patton in speaking his mind! At the time of Eisenhower's run for office McCarthy was an extremely powerful, political presence. It definitely would have been interesting if Ike and McCarthy had squared off on the Marshall speech, but perhaps Ike found it better to keep his mouth shut for the moment and catalog the incident for action against McCarthy later. I have to admit though that if I was a member of the Marshall family at the time I wouldn't find Ike's inaction very endearing. Just my two cents from the peanut gallery. JPN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 20:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: Test again! It's coming through clear and in green print on black background on my monitor. JPN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 20:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 26 Feb 94 14:57:44 +0000. <9402261505.AA26096@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > Hey all, > > I might be lighting a fuse here but here it goes :) > > In Duncan Kyle's Black Camelot (fiction I know :) he tell about > a US corporation that owns huge stocks on German military production. > Also werent there some areas or plants on Ruhr that didnt get hit or > even targeted? I think that Focke Wulf has been mentioned in such > statement. > > Another, not-so-serius-matter, is this: are the rumor's true > that Coca Cola was produced in the Reich? :) Interesting if it is true > :) There is a book titled Trading With The Enemy that discusses some of this. I remember reading it several years ago. I remember it saying that when the Coke plants in Germany could no longer get Coke syrup they created some new fruit flavored soda and called it Fanta. I remember buying Fanta Orange and Grape soda for years until Coke bought Minute Maid and started using that and Sunkist as the label names for the fruit flavored soda. Look for the book it discusses Opel, Ford of Germany and other subsidiaries of western companies. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 23:45:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: 103rd Inf Div in WWII Don Bowden was asking for information on the 103rd division in which his father served. An extensive narrative of the division in combat is in Shelby Stanton's Order of Battle U.S. Army, World War II. Also he has the full list of division subordinate units including the 409th, 410th and 411th Infantry REgiments, and other statistics. The division lost 720 KIA, 3.329 WIA and 101 died of wounds. It did enter combat by relieving the 3rd Inf Div at Chevry on 8-9 Nov 44 and attacked toward St Die in the Vosges Mtns on 16 Nov. Don, if you can't find the book, I will type up the full narrative when I return from Calif on 17 march. The division ended the war at Innsbruck Austria with the 409th Inf being the unit that met elements of Fifth Army in the Brenner Pass. The subordinate units each has a short write up as well. But I recommend you don't stick to books - go to the sources and discuss with the veterans. The veterans associations usually have published privately books and pamphlets on their service as well. The contact person of the 103rd is Reverand Harvey Ellsworth, 8260 Moreland Rd. Jerome Michigan 49249. phone 517-688 9249. I have never been to a WWII unit veteran's association annual meeting, but I have good friends who have done so specifically to interview veterans. They always got a great reception. I am sure they would love to see you at one of the meetings. Best wishes John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 23:26:22 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Tiripitz & the German Navy Tirpitz: LD 10/26/36, L 4/1/39, Com 2/25/41 Service history: 19/20 july 40 during fitting out in Wilhelmshaven unsuccessfully attacked by British bombers. 23/24 Sept 41 joined Baltic Fleet. In Nov. 1941, the original planned departure with Adm Scheer into the Atlantic called off. Jan. 1942 transfered to N. Norway. 6-12 March unsucessful operation agaonst convoys PQ-12 and QP-8, on that occasion fought off attack from planes launched from the Victorious. 27/28 April 42 unsuc. attacked by British bombers at Trondheim. 5 july 1942 operations against convoy PQ-17 prematurely broken off (but the fact she was at sea was enough for the British commander to order the convoy to scatter and it was destroyed piecemeal by U-boats and aircraft),on that occasion unsuccessful attack by Soviet sub K-21. 6-9 Sept. 42 operation against Spitsbergen (shell shore installations--only time main guns fired in anger). 22 Sept. 1943 in Alta Fjord near Narvik, attacked by British midget subs, seriously damaged by bottom mines planted by X 6 & X 7, ready for active service only from March 44 onward. 11/12 Feb 44 unsuccessfully attacked by Soviet bombers. 3 April 44 attacked by aircraft launched from Brit. carriers Furious, Victorious, Emperor, Searcher, Pursuer, & Fencer, received 14 bomb hits and seriously damaged. Second attack on 5 April un- successful because smokescreen laid in time. 17 July 44 unsucessful attack by aircraft from Formidable, Furious, Indefatigable. 22-29 August 44 further carrier attacks form Formidable, Indeatigable, Furious, Trumpeter, & Nabob; hit by 2 bombs, one of which penetrated the armored deck. 15 Sept 44 attacked by British bomber formation that had taken off from N. Russia; 4.5 ton bombs used for the 1st time, one of which narrowly missed the forecastle, causing serious damage, ship no longer seaworthy. 17 Oct 44 transfered to Tromso into shallow water to be used as a floating battery. 29 Oct 44 repeatedly attacked by British bombers w/o suffering serious damage. 12 Nov 44 attacked again by British bombers dropping 5.5 ton bombs, three direct hits, several near misses. Ship capsized and 1204 of her crew was killed. 1948-57 broken up by Norwegian company at site of sinking. (From Beyer's *Battleships & Battlecruisers). About 2 dozen surface ships survived the war and were doled out among the victorius powers: Cruisers Prinz Eugen US A-Bombed at Bikini atoll Nurenberg USSR as Adm Makarov, broken up 1959 Leipzig scuttled after war with a load of poision gas Destroyers: Z-39 US as DD 939, later to France as spares ship Z-38 UK as Nonsuch, bu 1956 Z-33 USSR as Proworny Z-31 UK then to France as Marceau bu 1956 Z-25 ditto as Hoche bu 1956 Z-20 USSR as Protschny Z-15 USSR as Pylki Z-14 USSR as Zorki Z-10 UK as R38 bu 1949 Z-6 France as Kleber Z-5 France as Desaix bu 1951 Torpedo boats: T-35 US given to France for spares T-33 USSR as Primjerny T-28 France as Le Lorrain T-23 France as L'Alsacien bu 1956 T-20 France as Baccarat T-19 to Denamark, bu 1951 T-17 USSR as Poriwisty T-14 France as Dompaire bu 1949 T-12 USSR as Podwischny T-11 France as Bir Hakeim bu 1949 Sailing ships: Albert Leo Schlagter given to Brazil 1947, renamed Guanabara, to Portugal as Sagres, 1962 Horst Wessel to US as USCG Eagle Gorch Fock to USSR as Tovarisch A number of minesweepers were given to the W. German navy to help clear the thousands of mines in the Baltic. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 22:07:33 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Tirpitz. The "Tirpitz" was holed up in Altafjord, Norway,in the summer of 1942, where it stayed in hiding from then on. The big warship became Number One target for the Royal Navy. On 20 September, 1943, the RN launched OPERATION SOURCE - six midget submarines went in, but only three arrived. The other three midget subs' crews attached explosives to the pocket-battleship's hull. The damage put Tirpitz out of action for six months'of repairs. Two of the RN officers were awarded the Victoria Cross for the attack. On 3 April, 1944, the RN launched OPERATION TUNGSTEN against "Tirpitz" at Kaafjord, Norway. British carrier-borne aircraft torpedoed the ship, killed `28 sailers, and damaged the Tirpitz so badly, she never went to sea again under her own steam. Then, finally, the coup de grace, 12 November, 1944, when the Royal Air Force sent 32 Avro Lancasters to finish off "Tirpitz", then under camouflage in Tromso Fjord. Each plane carried one 12,000 llb. 'Tallboy' bomb. The ship was hit and capsized; killing 1,000 of her 1,800 man crew. The doomed crew were heard singing just before the end. Later, the British scientist R.V. Jones remarked, "What a tragedy, that men like that had to serve the Nazi cause..." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 02:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: POL/PROP/???/ Extent of Holocaust knowledge, pre-VE Day? In-Reply-To: <94Feb26.153012est.32025(5)@spectre.uunet.ca> On Sat, 26 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > The simple answer is -- 10 years before. There were mentions > of Dachau and Fuhlbuttel in British and Continental newspapers as > early as 1936/36. 'Far as I know, in US papers, too. These, however, were concentration camps, not extermination camps. In fact, the Western allies liberated _no_extermination camps--the Soviets did all of that. In fact, in all of the films you see of Bergen Belsen, Dachau etc. being liberated, most of the corpses that you see aren't Jewish. Most of the people in these camps were "political" prisoners and the numbers of bodies that we see in the films are evidence of the breakdown of the German camp system at the end of the war. For the most part, the Holocaust, i.e. the extermination of the European Jews took place in the camps in Poland which were all liberated by the Soviets. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 13:29:25 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MR SKIP WILDER Subject: Norway Heavy Water Plant Earlier this week some subscribers commented on the CBS Olympics piece by Charles Kuralt on the Norwegian ski commandos who sabotaged the Nazi heavy water plant at Vemork, Norway. Those who have an interest in this incredible wartime feat would enjoy _Assault In Norway_ by Thomas Gallager, Harcourt Brace: New York, 1975, ISBN 0-15-109582-5. The book stands as a stark reminder of the role of personal valor and how WWII could have ended in another way. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Skip Wilder | | | phsp11a@prodigy.com |"The road to hell is paved | | FAX (703)528-2103 | with good intentions." | | McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. | | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 14:16:33 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Boring? Dylan, I think you are confusing acceptance of evil with historical curiousity. I am absolutely sure that nobody on this list approved of the Final Solution or Das Reich's rampage through France in '44. What we are is intersted as historians. One does not have to make a judgement of approval when looking are a historical time period, and in all seriousness, an historian that does make a value judgement is in danger of researching from a bias, which is what NOT to do. And, I don't at all believe that Man is anything but animalistic in his actions. Greed, possesion and conquest are natural expressions of Man's historical evolution. Do I wish it were otherwise? Of course I do. Marx did to some extent, too, but his ideas about the ultimate goodness of the proletariat were nonsense. To look at history in any other way but Who Controls and Who Rules is childish and unrealistic. By the way, what does a B-26 go for? See ya, John Horner SUNY at Delhi, New York ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 14:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Germans and knowledge of KZs Dachau, a concentration camp (not a death camp), opened in March of 1993. Its opening was announced in newspapers, certainly in nearby Munich but likely all over the Reich. The death camps in Poland were, of course, another matter; their existence was officially a state secret, though word did leak about what was going on. It is a question how much the "average" German knew about the killing, though he/she clearly knew that Jews were disappearing all over the country. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Dachau: Corrected date of opening Mea culpa. Dachau, of course, was opened in March 1933 ... '93! Interested recipients chould consult Paul Berben, DACHAU, 1933-1945: THE OFFICIAL HISTORY (London, Norfolk Press, 1975). -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 14:12:03 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Cheryl Bryant Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: <199402262018.AA29533@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> The officer who reassured the German POW I referred to was a British General who was having his portrait painted by the prisoner, who was known for his artistic ability. He did portraits as a way of getting more provisions for the prisoners in his block. Of course, this is all hear say, because I heard it from the German POW. I have no Proof of anything, or what might have been the motive behind the General telling the Prisoner of the plans to use Iserlohn following the War. I do not know the name of the British base in Iserlohn. However, the British just moved out of Iserlohn in October 1992. C.K. Bryant muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ************************************************* "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit." The 62nd Rule of Acquisition ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 14:31:14 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? Most of the surviving German U-Boats were sunk by the Royal Navy in OPERATION DEADLIGHT, which began on 25 November, 1945. The captured German boats were assembled for destruction at two British ports -- 86 U-Boats at Loch Ryan, Scotland, and 24 other boats at Lisally, Northern Ireland -- 110 surplus U-boats in total. They were towed in clusters ("trots") of five to the chosen scuttling ground was one of the deepest areas of the North Atalntic, where the sea-bed shelves away to a depth of about 1,000 fathoms. The area was 100 miles northwest of Lough Swilly, and 80 miles northwest of the Bloody Foreland in Donegal. The U-Boats were sunk by shellfire or explosive scuttling charges, quickly destroying the most effective arm of Hitler's forces. BTW: Gross Admiral Doenitz's statement when he was being tried at Nuremburg included this testimony: "... I estimate that in the course of the war, between 5,000 and 6,000 submarine actions took place. Out of a total U-Boat force of 40,000, 30,000 had not returned, which only 5,000 had been captured. German losses in submarines were nearly 700..." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 14:48:34 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: POL/PROP/???/ Extent of Holocaust knowledge, pre-VE Day? You say "the corpses seen ar Belsen were not Jewish..." Indeed, they were. You have the idea that concentration camps like Belsen were not set up for killing people. Inded, they were. Belsen KL alone "processed" an average level of 60,000 inmates -- a great many of whom were Jewish. The roll-call there for just one day, 19 March, 1945, finds approximately 500 prisoners died. "Several hundred" prisoners died in Belsen every single day. Martin Gilberts monumental study, ATLAS OF THE HOLOCAUST, makes none of your fine disctinction between "extermination camps" and "concentration camps". Bestial places to be inprisioned, whatever one's nationality or religion. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:57:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HIST301306@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU Subject: Hey everyone, READ this (RE:boring) My name is not Cary Stephens, it's Dylan Fierro. I accidentally sent the "Boring" message from the WAR2 instead of my personal account. My personal address is "hist301306". Again, let me make this clear: Cary Stephens did NOT write the "Boring" message. For those who say I ignore the details of history at my own risk, I say that you must not have read it thoroughly. For I displayed a bit of history which nobody cared to respond to, only admonish me for not conforming to the grain of this subsciption bulletin. The people who have the gold are not loyal to any specific country, they'll make loans to ANYONE as long as they can profit. They are international bankers:their money was the source to manufacture Spitfires, B-26s, Messerschmitts, Panzers, etc. -Dylan Fierro ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 17:55:35 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? Over two dozen U-boats survived the war and were incorperated in to various navies (not including those kept for a very short time by the USN & RN for evaluation and trials. France recieved: U-123 (IXB), recommissioned as Blaison, scrapped 1957 U-471 (VIIC), recommissioned as Mille, s. 1963 U-766 (VIIC), recommissioned as Laubie, s. 1961 U-2518 (XXI), recomissioned as Roland Morillot, fate unknown (to me) Norway received: U-926 (VIIC), recomissioned as Kya, f.u. U-995 (VIIC), recomissioned as Kaura, s. 1963 U-1202 (VIIC), recomissioned as Kynn, f. u. U-4706 (XXVI), recomissioned as Knerter, f. u. The Soviet Union received: U-1064 (VIIC), recomissioned as S.81, f. u. U-1231 (IXC), name and fate unknown, (to me) U-1305 (VIIC), recomissioned as S-84, f. u. U-2353 (XXIII), recomissioned as N-31 U-2529 (XXI), recommissioned as N-27 U-3035 (XXI), recomissioned as N-28, f. u. U-3041 (XXI), recomissioned as N-29, f. u. U-3515 (XXI), recomissioned as N-30, f. u. In addition, when the Soviet siezed Danzig, they completed the construction of several U-boats at various stages of completion, including at least four type XXI's. Spain operated the U-573(IXC) after it was interned and sold to Spain by Germany in 1943. In 1956, three U-boats scuttled in the Baltic in the closing days of the war, the U-2365 (XXIII), U-2367 (XXIII), and U-2540 (XXI) were raised and put back into comission by the Bundesmarine as the Hai, Hecht, and Wilhelm Bauer. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 18:02:54 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? . . . to a new "theme" park to be built in Germany. According to an article in Sunday's Chicago Tribune, Time-Warner is finalizing plans to build a theme park in Germany. It will be on a much smaller scale than Eurodisney (which lost almost 1 billion dollars last year), start up costs are 1/10th of Disney's. Warner is reportedly negotiating with the holders to the rights to the movie (and book) *Das Boot* with plans to build a "theme ride" based on a U-boat. I don't know, like I mentioned earlier on either this list or on Milhst-l about the planned Disney park near Bull Run, I don't think this mixing of amusment park and warfare is a good idea. I think it can trivialize the experience of war. Will Yosimite Sam be the captain of the U-boat and Elmer Fudd the first mate? -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 19:11:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: Hey everyone, READ this (RE:boring) In-Reply-To: <9402272355.AA16511@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "HIST301306@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU" at Feb 27, 94 3:57 pm If you link the international bankers with the international bolshevik conspiracy, blend in the Zionist plotters, and add a dash of paranoia, then bake at 450 degrees for 50 years, it will still be half-baked. Anyone who thinks they have the "single cause" of wars hasn't studied very many. Some have started just because some Louis (pick a number) was bored. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 18:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Hal Mueller Subject: Re: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? In-Reply-To: <199402280006.AA13175@carnivore.tamu.edu> (message from Steve Alvin on Sun, 27 Feb 1994 18:02:54 CST) Eeeeeyuck! Tour operators have capitalized on the assorted attractions in Florida already. Can't you see the package offers now? "Normandy beaches, Dachau, 6 Flags over Germany!" Hal Mueller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 18:25:28 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Brian Weight Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in '43? In-Reply-To: <199402211407.AA29675@access.mbnet.mb.ca> I remember reading the same thing in Liddell Hart'S "history of second world war". Good book but always wondered if this piece of info was true never ran across it in any other books. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:28:28 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hitler: Peace in '43? In-Reply-To: <9402280030.AA34122@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sun, 27 Feb 1994, Brian Weight wrote: > I remember reading the same thing in Liddell Hart'S "history of second > world war". Good book but always wondered if this piece of info was true > never ran across it in any other books. > That was the book and author I was trying to recall. When this book was published (about 15 years ago) this revelation made headlines because this was the first time anybody had mentioned it in a book. I don't recall if Liddell Hart was asked to substantiate his assertion that negotiations took place. Does anybody know? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 22:06:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll" Subject: Re: Test again! In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 25 FEB 1994 08:41:37 EST Hello from freezing New York! Read you loud and clear! Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, New York jzml@maristb.marist.edu > This is to see if I can make contact with everyone this way. I am > sorry for the inconvenience, but I am trying to resolve some > difficulties here. > > Thanks for your patience. > > Terry > > Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College > P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 > fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 23:44:48 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sly Subject: Re: German U-boats Someone writes (sorry, can't respond individually, I receive all of my posts from wwii together): > BTW: Gross Admiral Doenitz's statement when he was being tried >at Nuremburg included this testimony: "... I estimate that in the course >of the war, between 5,000 and 6,000 submarine actions took place. Out >of a total U-Boat force of 40,000, 30,000 had not returned, which only >5,000 had been captured. German losses in submarines were nearly 700..." I believe that I have seen the 30,000 out of 40,000 lost quote before (perhaps at the end of Das Boot?), but I am a bit confused with this quote (I'll probably feel real stupid after it is explained). If 25,000 U-boat crew members died, and only 700 U-boats, doesn't that make an average of about 36 people per U-boat if the *only* casualties came from destroyed boats? Now, remembering Das Boot, it seemed like there were a few billion people on a U-boat. Am I misremembering? I thought Das Boot was supposed to be a fairly realistic movie, but now that I think about it, it does seem as if there were too many people on that U-boat... "What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void." -Shinmen Musashi *Sly (mtlindem@midway.uchicago.edu)* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 13:25:35 -0600 Reply-To: "Robert J. Granvin" Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In message <01H9CLG78ARSDP8IVY@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> World War II Discussion List writes: > Another, not-so-serius-matter, is this: are the rumor's true > that Coca Cola was produced in the Reich? :) Interesting if it is true > :) True. Coca Cola was well established in Germany by the mid-30's, having built several processing plants to fill German and European demand (although they had to be "educated" to serve it cold -- Seems the Germans always wanted to serve it at room temperature which irritated the heck out of the Coke execs). When the war started and the U.S. was cut off from their overseas plants, the German Coca Cola refineries remained in operation. What's not completely clear right now is whether they continued to make Coke throughout the length of the war or were converted eventually to other needs. Coca Cola was, however, produced by the Reich after being cut off from their Atlanta managers for quite some time. -- Robert J. Granvin rjg@stat.umn.edu University of Minnesota, School of Statistics "I'm my father? I'm my mother? I'm chipped beef on toast?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 02:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: END OF GERMAN SURFACE NAVY The question about the TIRPITZ caught my interest, and I went over to the library to answer some questions of my own. As was mentioned in an earlier message, the TIRPITZ met her end in Tromsofjord. I wanted to know if she's still lying on her side there or has she been scrapped. Does anyone know? The following is what I found out about the end of other German naval vessels. battle cruisers SCHARNHORST- sunk 26 DEC 43 at the Battle of North Cape; approx. 1900 men lost GNEISENAU- scuttled at Gdynia at the end of the war obsolete WWI battleships SCHLESWIG-HOLSTEIN- bombed, burned out, and finally scuttled to block the port of Gdynia on 21 MAR 45; broken up in the 50's SCHLESIEN- scuttled off Swinemunde 4 MAY 45; salvaged by Soviets in 1947 and scrapped at Konigsberg 1949-56 heavy cruisers BLUCHER- sunk by Norwegian coastal defenses on 9 APR 40; wreck still remains at the bottom of Oslofjord ADMIRAL HIPPER- scuttled at Kiel 3 MAY 45; broken up in 1948 PRINZ EUGEN- served as a target for American atom bomb tests in the Pacific pocket battleships ADMIRAL GRAF SPEE- I didn't bother to look it up because I figured that everyone knew that she met her end down on the River Platte. Was she salvaged? ADMIRAL SCHEER- was bombed and capsized in drydock at Kiel in April 1945; her hull was buried when the drydock was filled (not with water) LUTZOW- scuttled 4 MAY 45 at Swinemunde uncompleted aircraft carriers GRAF ZEPPELIN- scuttled at Stettin on 25 APR 45; salvaged by the Soviets in 1947 who scrapped it in 1948 when repairs were determined to be uneconomical SEYDLITZ- converted PRINZ EUGEN class; blown up at Konigsberg in April 1945 light cruisers KONIGSBERG- bombed and sunk 10 APR 40 at Bergen by Fleet Air Arm; refloated in 1943; capsized in 1944 and was scrapped KOLN- bombed and sunk at Wilhelmshaven on 30 APR 45; scrapped in 1946 KARLSRUHE- scuttled after being torpedoed by British sub TRUANT 10 APR 40 LEIPZIG- scuttled in North Sea with a load of poison gas on 20 JUL 46 NURNBERG- served as ADMIRAL MAKAROV in the Soviet Navy until 1959 Does anyone know what happened to the EMDEN? My primary sources were: SIMON AND SCHUSTER ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORLD WAR II New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978 ILLUSTRATED ENCYCLOPEDIA OF 20TH CENTURY WEAPONS AND WARFARE New York: Columbia House, 1977 If anyone else has something to add or detract, I hope to hear from you. JPN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 01:13:58 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: German U-boats It only seemed like billions. :-) Remember, U-boats were small the standard type VII boat was only between 870-1000 tons and had a crew of 44. The larger type IX boat, roughly 1200 tons had a crew of 48. If you ever get a chance to visit the U-505 in Chicago, a type IX, you'll really appreciate how small they were. No jogging tracks around the missile tubes like in a Ohio class or hot-tube as in the Typhoon class! Another comparison: a LA class attack boat displaces about 7,000 tons, compaired to the 870 of a type VII. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 01:32:10 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: END OF GERMAN SURFACE NAVY As I mentioned in my post, the wreck of the Tirpitz was broken up between 1948-57 by a Norwegian-German company. The Gneiseanau was broken up between 1947-51 by Polish authorities (her main guns had been removed by the Germans in 1943-Turret A to the Hook of Holland as shore batteries, the other six guns to gun emplacements in Norway where they were installed in rock bunkers and used for many years by the Norwegians after the war) The Remains of the Graf Spee were partially broken up in 1942, but part of the hull could be seen for another 25 years. The Lutzow (ex-Deutschland) was salvaged by Soviet authorities in 1947, towed to either Lenningrad or Kaliningrad, and broken up between 1948-49. The Prinz Eugene was sunk at Kwajalein in 1947, 18 months after the Bikini blast. The Emden was scuttled in Kiel in April, 1945 after being damaged in an air-raid. One of her last mission was the body of Field Marshal von Hindenburg from the Tannenberg Memorial at Konigsberg. The Schlesian was raised in 1949 and scrapped between 49-56 The Schlesweg-Holstein was broken up between 1950-1956. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:40:17 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: German U-boats In-Reply-To: <9402280548.AA20142@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Sly" at Feb 27, 94 11:44 pm Hey all, The Germans lost 686 u-boats sunk out on the open sea and 78 lost in home ports and home waters. I have a complete listing of all (404) boats that went down with all hands which most of sank in 43 and 44. Also there were exceptions to the numbers, one boat went down near Norway in 44 I think with 73 people in it and by 43 fall the VII had an average of 50 men aboard with 51 in the 44. bye Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:18:17 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Monty/WWI/WWII Sidney Allinson writes... > Good number of Americans seem to keep their knowledge of FM > Montgomery to his activities after D-Day. Also, his somewhat > sharptongue style may blind people to his considerable abilities. > What was perceived as excessive caution, even timidity, > was in fact a strong reluctance to throw away men's lives. As > a young officer, Monty fought through some of the worst battles > on the Western Front during the First World War. Incidentally, > he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for great bravery > and cool-headedness under fire. The DSO was very rarely awarded > to a mere lowly Captain, as he then was. His WW One experiences > of wholesale slaughter colored his every future decision. > Monty's prickly personality, what he "said", has hidden > what he actually *did*. I read a couple of cheerfully ignorant > comments on this list that bears that out. > One armchair critic accused Montgomery of "bogging down > the troops in Normandy in slow bocage fighting". Matter of fact, > the bocage hedgerows had been there for a century or two before > Monty arrived. Second comical comment was to the effect that > "the Middle East was only a sideshow." Sidney raises a pertinent point re the affect of WWI on WWII w.r.t this caution. I have read evaluations of El Alamein that praise Monty for his adventurous tactics in the utilisation of his "crumbling" strategy which was, as I understand it, a type of attrition warfare. The article contrasted this to the caution shown by other commanders as an attitude brought about by 1914-18 in which many WWII commanders served. BTW - I was devastated to read Chuck's initial mail on the Monty/Ike extravaganza. I think it's the first complimentary thing I have ever read on this British hero from over the Atlantic! steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** from a concert program... Fugue in E Flat . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Major Bach ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:20:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 28-29 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 28 FEBRUARY AND TUESDAY, 29 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang MONDAY, 28 FEBRUARY AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s from Shemya Island search for enemy shipping; 1 B-24 crashes during takeoff, the others find nothing. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25s hit bridges and trains between Pintha and Kinu; 1 bridge is damaged and several boxcars are destroyed; 13 B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at Mandalay and targets of opportunity at Akyab, Monywa, and Pakokku; P-51s, A-36s and P-40s attack bridges, radio stations, supply dumps, bivouacs, troop concentrations, railroad by-passes, AA positions, and other targets at Seton, Sinkan, Ye-u, Kawlin, Loilaw, Namkwin, Shaduzup, and the Mogaung-Kamaing area. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe the airfield at Myitkyina, Burma. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Missions 237, 238 and 239 are flown today against targets in France; 7 B-17s are lost. Heavy clouds cause over half the bombers dispatched to return without bombing. Mission 237: 49 of 81 B-24s hit the Ecalles sur Buchy V-weapon sites; 1 B-24 is damaged. Escort is provided by 61 P-47s. Mission 238: 258 B-17s are dispatched against V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais; 109 hit the primary target, 10 hit a road junction E of Yerville, 7 hit a rail siding SW of Abbeville and 6 hit targets of opportunity; 7 B-17s are lost and 75 damaged; casualties are 5 WIA and 63 MIA. Escort is provided by 81 P-38s, 94 P-47s and 22 P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-51s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground. Mission 239: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Amiens, Rennes, Paris, Rouen and Le Mans, France at 2023-2055 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 180 B-26s attack NOBALL (V-weapon) targets and Rosieres-en-Santerre, France. Bad weather makes bombing difficult and causes 34 other B-26s to abort. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack Canino landing ground, but clouds prevent accurate bombing and most bombs fall W and SW of the main target area; A-36s attack airfields at Littoria, Guidonia and Marciglialia. P-47's hit motor vessels and a tug off Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia and targets of opportunity inland. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island strafe and bomb the runway and radio installation on Mille Atoll; B-25s from Tarawa Atoll pound the airfield on Wotje Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22 B-25s, with fighter escort, pound Rabaul; 9 minutes later 12 P-38s glide-bomb Rabaul; 2 minutes afterward 11 B-24s pound the same target; 6 other B-24s bomb Rapopo; P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters escort USN dive bombers in a strike on Wunapope; P-39s attack Monoitu Mission. 394th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on Guadalcanal Island with B-24s, begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 23 B-24s and 39 A-20s thoroughly pound the Hansa Bay area. Nearly 20 other B-24s bomb Nubia and Awar Airfields. In preparation for the Allied landing, 50+ B-25s and B-24s pound Momote on Los Negros Island, Lorengau on Manus Island and other targets in the Admiralty Islands. 80th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, moves from Dobodura, New Guinea to Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island with P-38s. TUESDAY, 29 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25s knock spans out of 2 bridges N of Taungtha and damage bridges S of Myingyan and between Panaing and Mahlaing; 7 B-25s and 4 P-51s bomb a radio station at Sinkan, score near misses on a bridge below Kawlin, and knock out 2 bridges in the Ye-u area. 40+ P-51s, A-36s and P-40s hit a supply area S of Seton, camp and stores near Mogaung (at Pagoda Peak), and railroad station at Myitkyina. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 B-24s pound the warehouse area at Yoyang, causing several fires and secondary explosions; 12 B-25s bomb Yoyang railroad yards; 16 P-40s provide support; 2 B-25s on a sweep of the NE China coast sink 3 sampans and damage a merchant ship at Siachwan Tao; 6 P-40s bomb and strafe ammunition dumps at Kunlong; 12 P-38s and P-51s sink a large motor launch NE of Anking, strafe barracks and 3 tugs in the Teian area, hit barracks NW of Nanchang and strafe railroad installations at Yangsin; 4 P-40s hit a barracks W of Nanchang; 2 B-25s sink a large river- craft on the Yangtze River near Chiuhsienchen and damage 2 more nearby. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Missions 240, 241 and 242 are flown; 1 bomber and 5 fighters are lost. Mission 240: 218 of 226 B-17s hit aviation industry targets at Brunswick, Germany and targets of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost and 54 damaged; casualties are 4 WIA and 10 MIA. Escorting are 61 P-38s, 346 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 147 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 2 P-38s are lost and 1 damaged, 2 pilots are MIA; the P-47s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-47 is lost and 1 damaged, 1 pilot is MIA; 1 P-51 is lost, the pilot is MIA. Mission 241: 38 of 48 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at Lottinghen, France without loss. Escorting are 79 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s; 1 is lost and the pilot is MIA. Mission 242: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Orleans, Lille, Reims, Cambrai and Chateauroux, France at 2025-2121 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 19 B-26s bomb a coastal gun position and nearby Breck-sur-Mer Airfield, France. 216 B-26s abort a mission against 8 V-weapon sites in France because of total cloud cover over the targets. Moves in England: HQ 370th Fighter Group and 401st Fighter Squadron from Aldermaston to Andover with P-38s (first mission is 1 May); 389th Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group, from Membury to Thruxton with P-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): For the fourth consecutive day, bad weather limits operations to reconnaissance missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the main and satellite airfields at Viterbo and several targets of opportunity along the W coast; B-25s bomb troops and gun positions W of Cisterna di Roma while A-20s hit concentrations to the S; P-40s and A-36s strike at troop concentrations along the N perimeter of the Anzio beachhead; other P-40s hit barracks and railroad yards at Littoria and a tank concentration S of Cisterna; P-47's (with British aircraft) hit Giulianova railway station and shipping off Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia; fighters maintain patrol over the Anzio beachhead. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s bomb Maloelap, Mille and Wotje Atolls; B-25s hit Jaluit and Mille Atolls; P-40s attack Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23 B-25s, with USN fighter escort, pound the Rabaul area; later 12 P-38s hit targets in the same area. 16 AAF fighters, along with 16 USN fighters, hit targets of opportunity throughout S Bougainville and Shortland Islands. Numerous other fighters, in forces of varying sizes, attack barges and scattered targets of opportunity throughout the N Solomons, Bismarck Archipelago, and waters in between. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Allied amphibious forces land on Los Negros Island, temporarily taking Momote Airfield and then falling back to the beachhead on Jamandilai Point; weather prevents full air support but 7 B-24s and 8 B-25s manage to attack enemy positions and guns; Other B-24s and A-20s hit Erima, Wewak, Tadji, Awar, and Hollandia, New Guinea. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:44:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Explosives Larry and several others mentioned unexploded ordinance at overseas locations. What about right here in the good ole USA? Raritan Arsenal was built in what is now Edison, New Jersey during World War I. It functioned as an Army arsenal during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. In the '70s or 80s it was closed and most of the land was sold to developers; Middlesex County College was also built on the land. Unfortunately, the Army never got around to clearing the land and now they have to go in and retrieve numerous shells, some dating back to WWI. There are even rumors that poison gas shells were buried there. My wife works for a company that located in what is now called Raritan Center and she tells of hearing explosions all the time as shells are collected and then exploded. Fortunately, the rumors about poison gas shells have not been proven, YET! ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Belsen as a "death" camp, etc. A open request to Sidney: Could you please cite documentation for your claims of 27 Feb? Thanks. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:00:24 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Dispostion of German Navy Hello, Joshua! Thanks for that great post. That is the most I have ever seen on that subject. I had read some years ago that the US received the Admiral Scheer which was used in an A-bomb test in the 50's. The Russians received the Prinz Eugen which was renamed the Aurora, and so on. Thanks again. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:03:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Hindenburg's Corpse: Where? I realize this is a ghoulish question, but nevertheless, if someone could solve this mystery for me I would appreciate it. I know for a fact that Hindenburg *was* at one time burried in East Prussia but as soon as that was about to fall to the Russians it was evacutated somewhere. In fact, someone else just mentioned the name of the ship (and I am not into naval matters so I have already forgotten the name of the ship - I think the guy said "Graf Spree" or something like that) that took Hindenburg's body *somewhere* but this person did not say where. Is Hindenburg properly burried somewhere? I mean, he sure as hell wasn't a Nazi having died in 1935 although one could put forth a cogent argument that Hindenburg alone deserves the blame for Hitler's accession to power, which we all know is true. Any comment would be appreciated. Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:18:09 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: U-Boats In USA Waters?? I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in American waters? Thanks for all those up to par in Naval affairs. The only thing I have in common with Hitler is a mutual disdain for the water. Kind Regards, CJW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:37:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: French demineurs (bomb disposal) In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 25 Feb 1994 18:30:27 -0230 from Congrats to Olaf & others who spotted the main source of my post on demineur (-: I wasn't being deliberately obscure; I was more interested in the heaps of shells in my mind's eye. In any event, I didn't have the article to quote from, so I relied on memory, imperfectly but basically ok. Of course, other parts of the world carry the same sad legacy as northern France. I believe El Alamein is still roped off, with no plans to ever make it safe; given the profusion of minefields on that battlefield, it's a perfectly understandable solution. I wouldn't be very enthusiastic about cleaning up Vietnam, either half. And Afghanistan & Kuwait--I don't even want to think about it. Come to think of it, the Russians must have/have had an immense problem cleaning up the country after the war. Does anyone have any information about that? Closer to home, there was a scare here in DC about a year ago when shells were discovered on the campus of American U., in the heart of a rather properous section of the city. It was thought they might contain gas, there having been a chemical warfare lab on campus during WWI, and a thousand or so homes were evacuated. The shells were pretty inert, but one slight accident would have had drastic repercussions, to say the least. And I *know* I've read newspaper stories in my adult life about civil war ordnance coming back to life in dramatic fashion. That would have been every bit of 120 years or so. Does anyone have an informed guess about the active life of buried ordnance, either black powder or modern? Of course, the continuing "hidden" costs of war crop up in other interesting ways. Dunnegan, in =Dirty Secrets=, mentions that there are still pensions being paid to widows of Confederate war vets, as the result of turn of the century "May-December" weddings. In fact, there was a stir about this in Richmond when a nursing home housing some of the last of these ladies was slated for closure: too expensive to keep up, but the ladies were not expected to fare as well psychologically in new surroundings. Based on this datum, one would continue to pay off WWII for another good 70 years or so. But I suppose none of this should really surprise us. When I studied the 100 Years' War, the stock quote was to the effect that parts of France, devastated by the routiers & the sporadic foraging, had never recovered. . . and that observation was made in the 1930s, fully 500 years later. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:20:18 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Bialek Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 25 Feb 1994 to 26 Feb 1994 MAB Modele D, actually I owned one of these for a time. Essentially it is an "improved" copy of the Browning 1922 which is in turn a longer barreled and larger magazine version of the Browning 1910 designed for Police and military sales. The MAB, D was a common French Police weapon. The Germans being short of small arms continued production of many samll caliber pistols of the nations they conquered, notably certain Czech models and the Browning 1922. I beleive they also produced some 50,000 of the Model D for their own use. When I can get to it I will try to get you my references. Hope this helps. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:13:20 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Demineurs > trust my memory. I found the Smithsonian article (Feb 1994) by Donovan > Webster from his book Aftermath: Cleaning up a Century of World War to be > published by Pantheon. Re the Smithsonian article, might it be available in the UK and if so, any ideas where I could obtain it? If it isn't, and it isn't too long, I'd be grateful if someone could send me a copy, post or fax... steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** from a Buckinghamshire paper "Cambridge University has decided to confer honorary degrees on all except students seeking first-class horrors, for whom the examinations will be held as usual" ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:17:12 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jesse carnes Subject: AGAIN ... 8th Air Force Dear All; Again I query : Can anyone give me a lead on how to find out info. on 8th Air Force personnel during hostilities ; where they were stationed in England and to whcih BG's, Squadrens, and Wings? Please anyone? BTW, any further info. on the 8th's most prolific pilot ... Lt. Col. Manny Klette of the 91st at Bassingbourn. Any leads on this remarkable man? From the article in the USAF's present-day magazine/publication, Klette virtually saved the day for us in the skies over Europe. I have some info. ... thanx to Frank Donafrio of Memphis Belle group in Memphis, Tenn. Will gratefully take any info. anyone can spare ... thanx! Jesse Carnes ("Air Force brat") notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu LSU Baton Rouge, LA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:39:52 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Forwarding note of Mon, 28 Feb 94 07:47:43 EDT from From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Undeliverable Mail *** Forwarding note from SMTP --VUNET 02/28/94 07:47 *** ======================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Feb 94 07:47:43 EDT From: To: Subject: Undeliverable Mail VUNET.VINU.EDU unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s): 550 Host 'UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU' Unknown ** Text of Mail follows ** Received: from VUNET.VINU.EDU by VUNET.VINU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0043; Sun, 27 Feb 94 21:50:38 EDT Message-Id: <19940227.215037.RKING@VUNET> Date: 27 Feb 94 21:50:37 EDT From: To: Subject: Addr: RE: I like Ike I guess I can't keep quiet any longer. I'll have to say that in my opinion, from my (albeit limited compared with some) reading, that Monty did not have the resources to fight with for much of the war (especially early in the war), as did Americans, and had to fight the way he did (ie, "tidying up the battlefield"--which was one of the quotes that so infuriated the U.S.) out of necessity. Not to say that Americans didn't have their supply problems (for instance, Patton claimed on occasion he drained the gas from two thirds of his tanks to keep one third fighting). If Monty had tried to fight the way Patton did (hitting the enemy hard, then hitting them again, and finally again and again), would Britain have been able to stay in the war during those terrible lonely years before we could assist them with significant materiel? My assessment is that Monty's genius was to keep Britain in the war, and this was achieved with caution. What if Monty had gambled more heavily and lost? Where would we be today? My two cents. ********************************************************************* Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) *Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:56:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck McCormick Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? 71233@compuserv writes: >I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler >didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in >Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. >I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, >when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in >American waters? I don't have any of my references with me but I'll try to pass on a little information about U-boat operations of the East Coast. The most famous of these operations was called 'Operation Drumbeat' by the Germans (and it is also the title of an excellent book published about 5 years ago). The German Navy sent 5 U-Boats to the East Coast in Jan.-March of 1942. The US coastal and anti-submarine defenses were not very effective. Very few convoys were operated and coastal areas were not blacked-out. The U-Boats had a field day, sinking many ships. The author of _Operation Drumbeat_ points out that more sailors died from those attacks than died at Pearl Harbor. Eventually a convoy system was installed on the East Coast and anti-submarine patrols by aircraft were increased. I don't believe that coastal areas were ever blacked-out though. All along the East Coast one still sees 'U-Boat towers' which were built as watchtowers so that the coast could be monitored for U-Boat patrols. There are at least two of these towers near Dewey Beach, Del. As the anti-submarine air patrols improved the coastal areas became very dangerous places for the U-Boats, and their operations moved to other areas of the Atlantic. Quite a few U-Boats were sunk off the East Coast and I think that scuba divers dive on one or two wrecks off of North Carolina and New Jersey. Chuck McCormick chuckm@arec.umd.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:09:39 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References > I met Bill Winchell, one of the waist gunners at an airshow in the > Chicago area about a year and a half ago. He's a great guy--very humble > about himself, and humbled by his experiences. Anyone met any other > Memphis Belle types out there? > > Tim A. Scherrer Hi Tim, The pilot of the Memphis Belle was at the Max Show in Baltimore last October autographing photos. Kelly's Heros thought of the day: Big Joe to Willard - Your crabs will leave you now. Cheers early on a Monday morning, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: Explosives In-Reply-To: <9402281333.AA13536@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "mc killop" at Feb 28, 94 07:44:00 am > > Larry and several others mentioned unexploded ordinance at overseas > locations. What about right here in the good ole USA? > > Raritan Arsenal was built in what is now Edison, New Jersey during World > War I. It functioned as an Army arsenal during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. > In the '70s or 80s it was closed and most of the land was sold to developers; > Middlesex County College was also built on the land. Unfortunately, the > Army never got around to clearing the land and now they have to go in and > retrieve numerous shells, some dating back to WWI. There are even rumors > that poison gas shells were buried there. My wife works for a company that > located in what is now called Raritan Center and she tells of hearing > explosions all the time as shells are collected and then exploded. > Fortunately, the rumors about poison gas shells have not been proven, YET! Every year numbers of adults and children are killed tampering with unexploded ordnance in the U.S.. When I was at Ft. Benning in 1980 several children and their parents were killed and wounded playing with 40mm grenades, etc. All of the local stations plus post cable repeatedly warned the public to stay out of range areas and to leave unexploded ordnance alone. They still blew themselves up on a regular basis. There was a great deal of unexploded ordnance at Ft. Benning. I found a bazooka rocket while on a compass course. I somehow managed to avoid beating it against a tree. On the other hand, we found a bunch of .30-06 blanks in Garand clips while digging fighting positions. Our platoon advisor told us to get rid of it, because it was "dangerous" and could "explode".... When I was assigned to the U.S. Army Armor and Engineer Board, one of our NCOs told me about an incident that occurred when he was a National Guard advisor. He was sometimes called upon by local police departments as an EOD advisor. One day he was called to a residential neighborhood where a large fire had taken place. Arriving at the scene, he found a badly damaged home, with debris scattered around. Walking up the driveway to talk to the police, he tripped over a "log" lieing in the driveway. Looking down, he discovered that the "log" was the remains of the homeowner. Apparently this genius had driven onto an artillery range and taken home one or more 105mm white phosophorus shells. He was attempting to saw through the casing of one of them when it voiced a strong objection.... > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:33:44 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jesse carnes Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:09:39 -0600 from Dear Bill Huber et al ; I have had some written and telephone covo. with Jim Verinnis {Co-pilot) of the Memphis Belle and also went on to get his own plane, the Connecticutt Yankee, which also had some sort of ties to Manny Klette [who did 91 missions] and 6 more that were aborted. My twin has had some telephone convo. with the other waist gunnie of the Belle ... but I cannot remember his name at this writing. He was very nice as was Jim Verinnis who lives in Connecticutt during warm months. Keep em flying ; Jesse Carnes "World's greatest lover of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress" notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? >I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, >when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in >American waters? Big time... For a non-standard and compelling shot of the losses, simply look at the list of shipwrecks off the Carolina coast... amd the reasons for the sinkings. Cape Hatteras was certainly the graveyard of the Atlantic, and the German U-boats helped make it that way... similarly off the Jersey coast and the Virginia capes. Our own naivete helped, as the darkened tankers and freighters were nicely displayed as dark masses moving against the well-lit shorelines. Bill N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:57:46 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: george urbaniak F Subject: Re: Hindenburg's Corpse: In Marburg In-Reply-To: <9402281340.AA27672@mach1.wlu.ca> Dear Chuck: As far as I know, Hindenburg's corpse is buried in the Cathedral of St. Elizabeth in Marburg, Hesse. There appears no good reason why he should be buried in this quaint university town except that it kept his remains out of the hands of the Red Army. His tomb as I remember stands somewhat incongrously next to that of the medieval saint. There was some talk of moving the body to Berlin two years ago but I have not heard much about it since. I doubt whether one could put forward a convincing argument that the senile old Hindenburg alone could be blamed for the rise of Hitler. Dr. George Urbaniak Wilfrid Laurier University Waterloo, Ontario On Mon, 28 Feb 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote: > I realize this is a ghoulish question, but nevertheless, if someone could solve > this mystery for me I would appreciate it. I know for a fact that Hindenburg > *was* at one time burried in East Prussia but as soon as that was about to fall > to the Russians it was evacutated somewhere. > > In fact, someone else just mentioned the name of the ship (and I am not into > naval matters so I have already forgotten the name of the ship - I think the guy > said "Graf Spree" or something like that) that took Hindenburg's body > *somewhere* but this person did not say where. > > Is Hindenburg properly burried somewhere? I mean, he sure as hell wasn't a Nazi > having died in 1935 although one could put forth a cogent argument that > Hindenburg alone deserves the blame for Hitler's accession to power, which we > all know is true. > > Any comment would be appreciated. > > Regards, > > Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:15:03 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: jesse carnes Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes References In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:33:44 CST from Dear All ; MY mistake for tacitly saying that Bill Winchell was a waste gunnie ... when in fact [unless I am wrong for two times in a row] Bill was the TOP gunnie up in the old Sperry behind the cockpit. Sorry. Jesse Carnes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:41:59 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? > It would not surprise me to discover that the Americans would > spare certain factories and cities for business considerations after the > war. However, to assume that places were spared because of American > backings during the war may be jumping the gun a little. > I would like to hear more about this subject in any case. > > C.K. Bryant Howdy, Just as a quick thought, I would imagine that if there were US owners or investors in German industries during WWII their interests would most likely have been either seized or at least frozen by the Nazis. What would they have had to loose? They were at war with us! Would they think that they should protect US interests in order to keep attracting US investors? I'm sure the FBI would have been keenly interested in any investors in the US that wanted to invest in German industry after Dec. 1941. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: INF: Rommel's Source of Info The July 1993 issue of Command had an interesting article on the Ju-86P reconnaissance plane. These planes flew at altitudes of up to 41,000 thereby avoiding interception. Rommel used these planes based in Crete to gather information on the British dispositions in Africa. Even armed with ULTRA, the British only had 24 hours warning of the flight plans making it impossible to hide every potential target that the planes would be able to detect. The British knew that they had to intercept these high flying aircraft if they wanted to blind Rommel. Accordingly, they stripped a Spitfire V of all of its armor and armed it with only two machineguns. The fighter was launched 30 minutes after the Ju-86P's take off on Crete. The Spitfire spent the next hour-and-a-half climbing to altitude and positioning itself along the German's flight path. The first interception took place some 50 miles north of Cairo on August 24, 1942. There followed an hour-long chase with the Junkers surging up to 42,000 feet in an attempt to escape. It was downed in the Med with the loss of the entire crew. Two more Ju-86Ps were downed in the following three months, so Rommel did indeed lose his view into the British rear areas. Germany countered with the Ju-86R-1 which attained a service ceiling of 47,000 feet. These aircraft were used against the British Isles from bases in the Netherlands from September 1942 to mid-1944 at which point Allied attacks had destroyed or damaged every single plane. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Hey! Did you lose my aerial photographs? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:45:50 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ingalls Steven CPT Subject: Re: German U-boats In response to your question about U-boat crews: > I believe that I have seen the 30,000 out of 40,000 lost quote >before (perhaps at the end of Das Boot?), but I am a bit confused with >this quote (I'll probably feel real stupid after it is explained). If >25,000 U-boat crew members died, and only 700 U-boats, doesn't that >make an average of about 36 people per U-boat if the *only* casualties >came from destroyed boats? The Type VII and VIID boats had a crew of 4 officers and 40 ratings; the Type VIIB - 4 officers and 44 ratings; the Type VIIC - 4 officers and 56 ratings; and the Type VIIF - 4 officers and 42 ratings. (Westwood - The Type VII U-Boat) While this is close to your average crew calculation, your estimation is still rather conservative. I seem to recall a tribute to fallen U-boot sailors on the front jacket insert of Peter Cremer's book, U-Boat Commander. I think (the book is at home) there were more sailors killed (perhaps double?) than the 25,000 number. Lastly, destroying a U-boat did not, in all cases, mean the crew was lost completely. Presuming some of the crew might survive a sinking, your average of 36 above only represents the average KIA/sunk U-boat. CPT Stephen Ingalls USMA, West Point FLY ARMY! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:05:40 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:18:09 EST from <71233.677@COMPUSERV E.COM> On Mon, 28 Feb 1994 08:18:09 EST Chuck Weckesser said: >I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler >didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in >Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. The Chesapeake is very shallow, averaging, I believe 35 feet overall. Having sailed/raced the middle Bay for several years, I can tell you quite emphatically that even 1000 yards out of the shipping channel the depth may not be 40 feet for long stretches. I don't think I'd be very happy as a U-boat commander with so little water under my keel 250 miles from open ocean--assuming I could penetrate the minefields at the entrance to the Bay & the naval base/fleet at Norfolk. The Potomac is considerably worse; there wouldn't have been much commercial traffic on the river in any case. New York would be enough of a target to make the trip worthwhile, but there's still minefields & patrol boats everywhere. I think the lower harbor was penetrated a few times early in the war, but not the upper and not after the original uboat blitz in '42. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:04:07 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? I was told by a person who flew escort duty and sub patrols off the coast of Canada that U-boat crew actually came ashore and mingled undetected. Of course I can't confirm it, but it makes an interesting story. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Hey everyone, READ this (RE:boring) In-Reply-To: On Sun, 27 Feb 1994, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote: > If you link the international bankers with the international bolshevik > conspiracy, blend in the Zionist plotters, and add a dash of paranoia, > then bake at 450 degrees for 50 years, it will still be half-baked. > > Anyone who thinks they have the "single cause" of wars hasn't studied > very many. Some have started just because some Louis (pick a number) > was bored. > > Larry J > Larry, you'd better watch out, if Oliver Stone's on the list he may soon be contacting you and Dylan for movie rights. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:29:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: Hey everyone, READ this (RE:boring) In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:57:00 PST from On Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:57:00 PST said: >. . . . For those who say I ignore the details of history at >my own risk,I say that you must not have read it thoroughly. For I displayed a >bit of history which nobody cared to respond to, only admonish me for not >conforming to the grain of this subsciption bulletin. The people who have the >gold are not loyal to any specific country, they'll make loans to ANYONE as >long >as they can profit. They are international bankers:their money was the source >to >manufacture Spitfires, B-26s, Messerschmitts, Panzers, etc. -Dylan Fierro I did read it. I did respond. You haven't convinced me. German industrial expansion/rearmament was more complicated than you would like to admit. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:51:16 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joseph Wolm Subject: Re: U Boats In USA Waters?? I have some very interesting facts about U-boats on the East coast as well as Japanese subs on the wst coast. Two days before the bombing of pearl harbor a group was founded called the Civil Air Patrol. This organization was founded by citizens who owned or had access to air planes and where concerned with the continentil United States They had many gaols and most of them still exist today. When they where founded there where too different perposes . 1- to teach young people how to be good leaders and affective citizens. 2- to in times of war to field a force of communications and reconicence. I wont get into real deep details about the orginization if nobody is interested...... But, during world war two the civil air patrol flew reconisence for the coast gaurd and airforce to locate submarines. They where VERY successfull in locating submarines. Unfortunatley the navy , airforce, and coast gaurd where VERY slow in responding to there findings. The people who ran civil air patrol became extremly annoyed with the slow reaction times of the military. They hounded the military to allow them to carry bombs on there tiny commercial air-craft.... AMAZINGLY the govt. agrreed to allow this and subbsequently the civil air patrol bombed and recieved 5 confirmed HITS on enemy submarines. They now today are credited with 2 kills. Curiously enough the civil air patrol is the only instance I can find where American civilians actually participated in military operations. REMEMBER this organization at the time had no direct link to the military. if anyone is interested in this subject send me mail or reply, respecfully, Joseph M. E. Wolm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:05:23 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: US corporations in wartime Germany There is a story, possibly apocryphal, that US bombers with ITT-made equipment on board several times bombed ITT-owned factories in Germany (sounds almost like something out of CATCH-22). Of a more factual note: The book delineating the history of ITT says that the CEO at the time, a Col Sosthenes Behn, was on the scene in Germany only a step or two behind the combat troops to survey the damage to ITT factories. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:04:57 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bill Vasilion Subject: Foxholes......... can anyone tell me if the men who had to live in the fox holes while the marines took the beach had to do any of the fighting or where there support people left on the beach till the island was secured..I would appreciate any help on this. I have read some books on ww-ii but have not seen this covered to any depth. For the U boats there were some of the eastern seashore unloading the cargo..but I don't know why HItler did not send more to hit the shipping industry..... thanks bill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:53:36 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: The Amber Room: Does It Exist? I recently finished a book which made many references to a so called "Amber room" which is so richly adorned that half the world wishes to discover its whereabouts (forgive the hyperbole). I have never heard of any "Amber Room." Could someone please elaborate. Specifically, is it myth or does it really exist somewhere? Is it possible that some buck private could have found it and had it shipped home as a war trophy? Regards, CJW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:23:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Fox Subject: Re: MISC: Fighting WWII for the Rest of Your Life I have the Smithsonain article in front of me. It is stunning, even for someone who has spent a lot of time in Flanders Fields and knows a little about the dimension of the WWI problem in that part of Belgium. The article is titled, "'The soldiers moved on. The war moved on. The bombs stayed,'" by Donovan Webster. Since 1946 when the Deminage dept. was established, 630 demineurs (de-miners) have died in the line of duty. In 1991, 36 farmers died when their machinery hit unexploded shells. The worst ones to deal with are the toxic shells. One of the demineurs who halped Webster in France was "gassed" by poison- gas shell. Webster reports that the man survived but his prog- nosis is guarded. Highly recommend a read! ******************************************** * Steve Fox * * History Department * * Humboldt State University * * Arcata, CA 95521 * * (707) 826-4788 * * FAX: (707) 826-4496 * * FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu * ******************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:49:14 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Roehm Was Gay: Was Hitler? I think it fair to conclude that Roehm (leader of the SA for those of you who do not know who I am talking about and murdered on Hitler's orders on 30 June 1934) was quite possibly gay. Was Hitler? Perhaps he was asexual. But I find it interesting to note here that gay people (and as a gay man, this affects me) were included in the Holocaust and systematically murdered. That being the case, why then were Hitler and Roehm so close? As in "du" close. Before returning to Germany to command the SA, I think Roehm spent some time in Argentina. Had a penchant for young men 18-25 or so. I have read Hitler's "Table Talk" (and this very complex to those who do not understand the reference I am making so I won't even attempt to explain table talk) and I cannot locate any references to homosexuality. Can anyone else furnish me with a direct citation from Hitler regarding any aspect of homosexuality (not to be confused with disgusting pedophiles who prey on those who by definitin cannot give consent)? I have also read (but the research is a bit shaky so I won't bet my paycheck on it) that Hitler *may have* had only *one* testicle. Please note that I said "may" and not "did." The jury is out on this question as it would seem the little corporal was rather modest. If only "Doctor Morell" were around to give us a few answers. If Hitler was in fact gay, I will want to wretch, as I certainly don't want him in "my box" so to speak. Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:42:34 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jeff Dingbaum Subject: Re: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? I mistakenly replied back to Steve on this one (first post to the list). But here it is anyway. On Sun, 27 Feb 1994, Steve Alvin wrote: > Over two dozen U-boats survived the war and were incorperated > in to various navies (not including those kept for a very short > time by the USN & RN for evaluation and trials. > .... The U.S. also had a U-Boat, the 505, which was the first enemy vessel captured on the high seas since the time of John Paul Jones (at least according to the brochures). It is currently housed at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Its pretty interesting to see the holes in the outer shell of the conning tower, where shrapnel ripped through it. Jeff Dingbaum HEP Network Resource Center dingbaum@hep.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Chuck Weckesser: "Amber Room" inquiry Please send me particulars: author and title. Our resident folklorist has no knowledge of this, though he did point out that amber is thought in many traditions be have curative and protective powers. By the way, Chuck, I cannot get through to you per your e-mail address. My gateway says there "is no such address." -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:01:19 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: ; from "WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR" at Feb 28, 94 10:41 am > > Howdy, > > Just as a quick thought, I would imagine that if there were US owners > or investors in German industries during WWII their interests would > most likely have been either seized or at least frozen by the Nazis. If the Nazis knew . . . Suppose there is a machine tool plant in Bavaria owned by a firm based in Zuerich, Switzerland -- but the Zuerich firm is a subsidiary of a Lisbon, Portugal plant, which is half-owned by a Milwaukee, Wisconsin company, et cetera . . . A book "Trading with the Enemy" by Charles Higham discusses this sort of multinationalism in some detail (I think it has already come up in this discussion). > What would they have had to loose? They were at war with us! Would > they think that they should protect US interests in order to keep > attracting US investors? I'm sure the FBI would have been keenly > interested in any investors in the US that wanted to invest in German > industry after Dec. 1941. > > Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil > By the way, why can't I reply to a mail message and have it go the list (instead of also bothering the personal mailbox of the original poster)? Regards, Rob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:12:56 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Robert E George Subject: Re: Addr: Undeliverable Mail[D In-Reply-To: ; from "RICHARD KING" at Feb 28, 94 9:39 am Richard writes: > > I guess I can't keep quiet any longer. I'll have to say that in my > opinion, from my (albeit limited compared with some) reading, that > Monty did not have the resources to fight with for much of the war ? Aside from a divisional command in France in 1940, Montgomery's first combat commands were in North Africa in late 1942, *after* the U.S. industrial machine had begun to equip the Commonwealth forces lavishly. At Alamein Montgomery enjoyed numerical superiorities of around 3:1 in tanks and a/c, and huge superiorities in munitions and, above all, fuel. > (especially early in the war), as did Americans, and had to fight > the way he did (ie, "tidying up the battlefield"--which was one > of the quotes that so infuriated the U.S.) out of necessity. Not to > say that Americans didn't have their supply problems (for instance, > Patton claimed on occasion he drained the gas from two thirds of > his tanks to keep one third fighting). If Monty had tried to fight > the way Patton did (hitting the enemy hard, then hitting them again, > and finally again and again), would Britain have been able to stay > in the war during those terrible lonely years before we could > assist them with significant materiel? My assessment is that Monty's One of the most daring British military operations of WWII was Operation Compass, carried out in North Africa in late 1940, *before* the U.S. had begun to materially assist Britain. (Montgomery had nothing to do with it, being then stationed in the UK.) Though outnumbered by about 5:1, Commonwealth forces went on the offensive against a large Italian army and decisively routed it. I would argue British forces showed *more* audacity *prior to* mid-1942 than thereafter, which is not truly surprising since . . . Desperation and material inferiority call for daring and audacity: in fact the only reason Montgomery was able to fight the way that he did was the huge material superiority he enjoyed over his adversaries. (See Barnett's "The Desert Generals", already mentioned in this thread. ) > genius was to keep Britain in the war, and this was achieved with > caution. What if Monty had gambled more heavily and lost? Where would > we be today? My two cents. > Montgomery was a talented general, but it seems to me that his talents were limited to fighting grossly inferior opponents. Could he have carried out Compass? By the way, what is wrong that I cannot reply directly to the list any more w/o going also to the poster's personal mailbox??? Regards, Rob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:15:44 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? >I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler >didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in >Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. > >I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, >when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in >American waters? > >Thanks for all those up to par in Naval affairs. The only thing I have in comm on >with Hitler is a mutual disdain for the water. > >Kind Regards, > >CJW > Chuck, The U-Boats were so successful that their nickname for their first few months in American waters was "The Happy Time." LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:14:44 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: US owned corp's in Ruhr during WWII? In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:01:19 EST from On Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:01:19 EST Robert E George said: > By the way, why can't I reply to a mail message and have it go the >list (instead of also bothering the personal mailbox of the original poster)? It appears as if some of the subscribers are reading/replying through agents that do not set a "Reply-to:" field back to the list. The rest of us when replying to such folk wind up sending directly to them unless we think to whip out a quick "include" list instruction to our own mailers. I don't know if the problem has a solution because I don't know the details of the mailers other folk may be using. I don't think the listserver itself is responsible; I can't remember any way from my server doc the listowner could override the reply function. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:47:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: The Amber Room: Does It Exist? >I recently finished a book which made many references to a so called "Amber >room" which is so richly adorned that half the world wishes to discover its >whereabouts (forgive the hyperbole). > >I have never heard of any "Amber Room." Could someone please elaborate. >Specifically, is it myth or does it really exist somewhere? Is it possible tha t >some buck private could have found it and had it shipped home as a war trophy? > >Regards, > >CJW Chuck, See THE CRUELEST NIGHT by Christopher Dobson. He claims the room panels were sunk when the Russians torpedoed the liner WILHELM GUSTLOFF. They were made for King Frederick I of Prussia in 1709, and they almost bankrupted the country. They were in Konigsberg in early 1945, but have disappeared. Dobson describes the whole mystery. Some think they are hidden in a salt mine. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:44:10 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" Subject: Re: The Amber Room: Does It Exist? In-Reply-To: <199402281831.KAA22279@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Actually about two years ago there was a piece about the Amber Room on NPR, and it was fascinating. It was lost during the war, and as far as I know, no one knows where it is. It would be literally priceless intact, but unfortunately there's a good chance that some bastard chopped it up and sold the pieces. What was fascinating about the piece was that someone claims that he knows where it is, and only needs the funding to go and recover it. But no one was jumping at the chance. Why? The person who claims to know where it is located is named Konrad Kujau--the very same person who forged Hitler's Diaries back in '83! He keeps turning up like a bad penny! ;-) Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis On Mon, 28 Feb 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote: > I recently finished a book which made many references to a so called "Amber > room" which is so richly adorned that half the world wishes to discover its > whereabouts (forgive the hyperbole). > > I have never heard of any "Amber Room." Could someone please elaborate. > Specifically, is it myth or does it really exist somewhere? Is it possible that > some buck private could have found it and had it shipped home as a war trophy? > > Regards, > > CJW > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:02:40 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" Subject: Re: Germans and knowledge of KZs In-Reply-To: <199402272002.MAA10485@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> The issue of how much the average German knew about concentration camps and extermination camps has always been a tricky one, though perhaps there's less there than meets the eye; after all, we knew things were going on in Cambodia, and we did nothing. And this is a "free" country (interestingly enough, George McGovern was one of the few politicians who wanted to do something about the killing fields). But I digress. The comment regarding the pamphlet of the White Rose is telling; if a few students at the University of Munich knew that mass killings of Jews were going on, how typical were they? Perhaps more typical than Kuhnelt-Leddihn leads us to believe (he claims only 100,000 knew). Most everyone knew about concentration camps, but most people also thought that the inmates were criminals and vagrants and communists, and that they got what they deserved; read Gordon Horowitz's book on the community of Mauthausen; he conducted interviews with people who lived around the concentration camp there, and the results are fascinating. With respect to the contrast between concentration camps and extermination camps, Sidney Allinson has a good point: it was very easy to be killed in a concentration camp. You didn't want to go in with your twin brother, that's for sure! Killing was random, and common. Nevertheless, the distinction between places like Dachau and places like Treblinka probably should be made: Dachau was constructed to terrorize political opponents, and part of the instrument of terror was killing people there. After a few months in the KZ you were supposed to think twice about distributing communist pamphlets, and sure enough, most people did think twice. A place like Treblinka had a very different purpose--it separated the workers from the dead. Persuasion was not its purpose. These distinctions might seem rather fine (especially if you're on the receiving end of a bullet), but they do seem roughly true, or at least up until late in the war. Sidney Allinson's point about hundreds dying is correct, but that came in March 1945--late in the war, when the distinction between concentration camps and extermination camps doesn't really hold (most of the extermination camps had been destroyed by then anyway). Finally, regarding how much people knew, I came across a confidential directive to the Gauleiter, dated October 9, 1942 in the T-81 series of micrfilmed captured German documents in the National Archives. It notes that there have been rumors about "very harsh measures" (sehr scharfe Massnahmen) against the Jews, especially in the East. Thus by October 1942 it was plain to the party leadership that what was going on in the east was becoming common knowledge. Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 19:40:51 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Monty Richard writes: > > I guess I can't keep quiet any longer. I'll have to say that in my > opinion, from my (albeit limited compared with some) reading, that > Monty did not have the resources to fight with for much of the war ? Aside from a divisional command in France in 1940, Montgomery's first combat commands were in North Africa in late 1942, *after* the U.S. industrial machine had begun to equip the Commonwealth forces lavishly. At Alamein Montgomery enjoyed numerical superiorities of around 3:1 in tanks and a/c, and huge superiorities in munitions and, above all, fuel. I don't think that 3:1 odds is particularly decisive - is it not (generally speaking) the minimum odds for a force on the offensive? Superiority in numbers/equipment is no guarantee of anything as various battles demonstrate. You also need to take into account the army that Monty took over was not particularly "on a winning streak". He turned them around and made them believe they could win. Is not the real reason that he is not particularly regarded in the US because of his abrasiveness towards various ones (discussed in other mails)? If the USA produced so much hardware etc etc, surely we should expect their generals to perform stupendous tactical feats. (I refer to the European campaign since my knowledge of the Far East is even more ropey!). The Ardennes was not particularly impressive was it? BTW was not Monty second choice? I believe that the first choice, whose name escapes me, was shot down on his way to take over the command. Also, has anyone read the biography of BLM by Nigel? Hamilton? Impressions? provocatively but nevertheless cordially steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** from a Motoring magazine "Most of the owner-drivers I know make a practice of washing their ears at least once a week." ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:59:56 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Ardennes Stephen, In your Monty message, you threw in a little quip about the American performance in the Ardennes. I believe you said it was "less than impressive." I couldn't disagree more. Charles B. MacDonald, in "A Time for Trumpets" catagorically explains the tremendous heroism and hardship that the US Army fought through to achieve one of the most important victories of the war. Yes, the US forces in the Ardennes were not the best equipped troops, nor were they the pride of the Army. There were many formations there that were specifically sent there to rest after being hammered in other sectors. The fact that these units (with meager help from Monty up north - who waited until the Germans expended themselves) held off the last remaining offensive units of the Western Front Wehrmacht says a great deal about the impressiveness of the US Army. MacDonald, who fought there as a second Luitenant (I think) chose the correct title, it was a "Time for Trumpets." Lets not forget that Patton from the south and the two US airborne divisions were the real reason that the Bulge was held. Monty did very little except watch. John Horner SUNY at Delhi, New York ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:58:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: Monty In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 28 Feb 1994 19:40:51 GMT from On Mon, 28 Feb 1994 19:40:51 GMT Stephen Baldwin said: >> At Alamein Montgomery enjoyed numerical superiorities of around 3:1 in >> tanks and a/c, and huge superiorities in munitions and, above all, >>fuel. >I don't think that 3:1 odds is particularly decisive - is it not >(generally speaking) the minimum odds for a force on the offensive? Yes, but that is at the point of the attack--you might have 1-1 odds else- where. An overall superiority of 3-1 across the board would imply the possibility of concentrating 9-1 or better at the breakin points. In terms of arty, Monty's advantage was even better than 3-1, something like 8-1 if memory serves. >You also need to take into account the army that >Monty took over was not particularly "on a winning streak". >He turned them around and made them believe they could win. Yes and no. The July fighting surprised Rommel in its ferocity & in its nearness to breaking the Afrika Korps wide open. The sharp nature of Auchinleck's counterattack mere days after Ritchie lost Gazala and Tobruk does not suggest an army that did not think it could win. I've always thought this terribly unfair--the Auk didn't really bear the blame for Gazala, as he was theatre commander, not 8th army commander, but Churchill refused to give him the time he gave Monty to prepare for sustained offensive operations. I suspect the Auk would have been a better commander in Europe than Monty, with less hype. >Is not the real reason that he is not particularly regarded in the >US because of his abrasiveness towards various ones (discussed >in other mails)? Look: he was loud, insulting, shirked the blame for his foulups & went out of his way to denigrate his ally in the Ardennes--in fact, he made the whole thing worse on the northern flank. I don't know of any country that would take kindly to that sort of treatment. ken koester maint2@ers.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:15:25 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: Re: Hey everyone, READ this (RE:boring) In-Reply-To: <9402281737.AA09239@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "David Rising" at Feb 28, 94 12:31 pm > Larry, you'd better watch out, if Oliver Stone's on the list he may soon > be contacting you and Dylan for movie rights. > David Rising > I deleted BOTH Olivers (Stone AND North) from the list. Too noisy. Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ricky Prado Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? In-Reply-To: <9402281347.AA20168@icarus.lis.pitt.edu> I was interested in the posting about U-Boats in US waters and I thought that I'd just add what I know. This story comes from my mother who was a little girl at the time. If anyone can find a documented source I'd like to know about it. During the Second World War there were several U-Boats that were known to have operated off of the Gulf Coast around the mouth of the Mississippi. My mother tells me of the time that one of these boats was captured and brought to dock at Morgan City, La. She remembers seeing the boat being towed into the docks. Anyhow, the boat was searched and there were several "Evangeline Maid" bread wrappers found on the boat. Evangeline Maid is a produced by a company in Louisiana. Apparently the U-Boats carried with them a certain amount of gold to reprovision themselves. I nor she knows what happened to the U-Boat. @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ___ (_|_) Ricky Prado "Thank you for your sweetly |\ prado@icarus.lis.pitt.edu faked attention." University of Pittsburgh Kurt Vonnegut @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:36:29 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jeff Dingbaum Subject: Re: Germans and knowledge of KZs > Warren Thompson writes: > Dachau, a concentration camp (not a death camp), opened in March of 1993. > Its opening was announced in newspapers, certainly in nearby Munich but > likely all over the Reich. The death camps in Poland were, of course, > another matter; their existence was officially a state secret, though > word did leak about what was going on. It is a question how much the > "average" German knew about the killing, though he/she clearly knew that > Jews were disappearing all over the country. > Although there were probably people who either guessed or knew what was going on in camps such as Dachau, many people may not have had a clue. The majority of people don't have a clue about things in their own town. Not to make comparisons, but to illustrate my point; how many people know anything about the local sewage plant, the water works, the dump, the city hall, or more accuratley - the state or county prison? Yes they know that the prison hold inmates, but do they know what goes on inside the walls? But then again, even with a camp such as Dachau, some things are not kept secret for very long. I know this is all highly speculative, but so was the original thought. Jeff Dingbaum ps. I visited Dachau in 1989. It had been a perfect day in Munich, we took the subway to get there, and when we arrived it was overcast and started to drizzle. Talk about gloomy. The three door creamatoriam was located in the back of the camp and if I remember, had a fence separating it from the main areas. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:51:51 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ingalls Steven CPT Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? CJW, >I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler >didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in >Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. While successful during Operation Paukenschlag, the limited number of boats on America's Atlantic shore was largely one of conflicting military priorities. The emphasis in Germany's naval building program had long been toward capital ships and the U-bootwaffe's early successes were just now beginning to sway opinion about their utility in waging war against England (and now the US). Long story short, Doenitz' desired program of U-boat construction was still unrealized and the operational boats were spread woefully thin. >I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, >when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in >American waters? Absolutely. Operation Paukenschlag (Drumbeat) was extremely successful and only after America began taking the threat seriously did shipping losses wane. Two good books, one by Gannon called Operation Drumbeat and Peter Cremer's memoirs, U-Boat Commander, provide interesting insight to this campaign. CPT Stephen A. Ingalls USMA West Point ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:35:29 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: Roehm Was Gay: Was Hitler? In-Reply-To: <9402281837.AA12750@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "Chuck Weckesser" at Feb 28, 94 12:49:14 pm > > I think it fair to conclude that Roehm (leader of the SA for those of you who do > not know who I am talking about and murdered on Hitler's orders on 30 June 1934) > was quite possibly gay. I think he's way beyond "quite possibly". He was gay, and child molestor as well, if I recall. Read Hoene's (sp) "Order of the Death's Head". The author makes reference to Roehm and others recruiting from a local highschool. > If Hitler was in fact gay, I will want to wretch, as I certainly don't want him > in "my box" so to speak. In what way would that reflect on you? I'm Black, so's child molestor/killer Alton Coleman, on death row in Illinois. I certainly don't feel any responsibility for him or his actions. If you feel responsibility for (a presumed gay) Hitler, ought you not to feel responsible for serial killers Jeffrey Dahmer and Larry Eilers? I personally don't see the point of your inquiries. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:10:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GERMAN 101/102 LAB Subject: Re: Ardennes In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 28 FEB 1994 05:59:56 EST I wonder if anyone one the net has ever driven the road from Bastogne eastwards into Luxembourg towards Ettelbruck and then further east towards Echternach. I am interested in doing this on a bicycle. My goal is to make it into Trier and then cycle down the Mosel towards the Rhine. There is also another route south of Bastogne towards Arlons and then due east into Luxemburg City. Any info or suggestions sincerely appreciated. Dale Lally, Director Carnegie Language Center St. Lawrence University Canton NY 13617 dlally@stlawu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:15:43 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Hitler Gay? Hello Chuck and others! Hitler was not gay nor was he asexual. He liked the company of women, and he had had affairs. Geli Raubal was his first serious one and finally Eva Braun. Roehm was definitely gay. He was caught in bed with his chauffeur when arrested on 30 Jun 1934. The best citation I can give on Hitler's views on homosexuality would be his work Mein Kampf which devotes 10 turgid pages to this. Hope this helps. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Spencer Subject: Re: Monty Also, has anyone read the biography of BLM by Nigel? Hamilton? Impressions? Hamilton is good until Alamein, thereafter, disappointing. As I recall, Hamilton is not a military historian and has no military training, but was a good friend of Monty. (It's been years since I read the books; sorry for vaguense.) Up to Alamein, it's reasonably well-balanced for an authorized bio. He naturally slights other commanders (eg Dickie O'Connor); after all, it's a bio of Monty. He admits that Monty was insufferable and insubordinate; admission of those obvious failings give some impression of fairness. He doesn't admit Monty's military failings; he won all the battles, so superfically there's nothing to criticize. When he gets to Normandy, however, Hamilton goes off the deep end. He becomes uncritial of Monty and shrilly critical of all who doubt his perfection. Most unfortunately, Hamilton did not acquaint himself with the Allied logistical problems, and seems to have taken Wilmot's history as gospel on tactical and strategic matters. A slight acquantance with Ruppenthal's _Logistical Support of the Armies_ would have gone a long way to dispelling Hamilton's enthusiasm for the "single, full blooded thrust" to Berlin. If one is acquainted with the logistical situation, one must conclude that in advocating the drive to Berlin in August either Monty was trying to set himself up for the history books, or he was a fool. And I don't think he was a fool. And Hamilton never gets to the real nub of the problem with Monty: Monty lacked boldness, Clausewitz's criterion for a great captain. Monty was an extremely successful general by not taking risks and by demanding resources that might have been better spent elsewhere. If one has unlimited resources, that's fine. Under the circumstances, it was not. dhs spencer@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:23:16 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll" Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 28 FEB 1994 08:18:09 EST As a boy in the early 1950's I heard stories that a German sub had been seen off Rockaway beach during the war. No confirmation that I know of, other than I think Woody Allen used the story in one of his films. Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY jzml@maristb.marist.edu > I know little about naval matters. Can someone please explain to me why Hitler > didn't order say 50 U-Boats to American waters (e.g. the Potomac river in > Washington, and so forth) to destroy *American* vessels. > > I just don't understand. Did a U-boat ever come near American waters? If so, > when? What happened? Did a U-Boat ever successfully conclude a mission in > American waters? > > Thanks for all those up to par in Naval affairs. The only thing I have in comm > with Hitler is a mutual disdain for the water. > > Kind Regards, > > CJW ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:26:08 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: U-Boats in American Waters Hello, Chuck and others! Much has already been posted on this, but I want to add my two cents' worth to it. Ships had been sunk within sight of land, in other words, ships had been sunk just outside the 3-mile limit within sight of sighseers, picknickers, and so on, from Florida to New Jersey. Doenitz had sent all the boats he had at his disposal to the American coast just for that purpose. In fact, at one point, boats or ships were being sunk faster than they could be replaced. Thanks. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:33:11 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German U-boats The figures were stated by Gross Admiral Doenitz. If they don't look right, you'll have to ask him. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Spencer Subject: Re: Ardennes >In your Monty message, you threw in a little quip about the American >performance in the Ardennes. I believe you said it was "less than impressive." >I couldn't disagree more. Thinning out the Ardennes front was a calculated risk. Calculated risk was a concept alien to Monty's military method. It was, however, excellent strategy. It turned out badly at first, but quite well in the end. It would have turned out much better if Monty had listened to his American superior, co-ordinate commanders and subordinates. They wanted to harden the shoulders and counterattack. Monty was having none of that. The American troops did very well under the circumstances. dhs spencer@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:33:01 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Roehm Was Gay: Was Hitler? In-Reply-To: Chuck, if you want to find out more about Hitler's sexual status/preference and other such things, try reading Robert G. Waite's book _The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler_. He goes into such discussion and cites many good references. In short: Ro"hm was gay, Hitler was not. Hitler also had Ro"hm shot, although it probably had nothing to do with his being gay. Hitler had one testicle, Ro"hm had both. Happy reading, David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:40:24 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Belsen as a "death" camp, etc. "Claims" Which ones? Pls. refresh me... :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 21:36:05 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Monty ken koester and me write... smb> >Is not the real reason that he is not particularly regarded in the smb> >US because of his abrasiveness towards various ones (discussed smb> >in other mails)? > ken> Look: he was loud, insulting well yes. No-one is denying this...it is legendary! ken>, shirked the blame for his foulups & ken> went out of his way to denigrate his ally in the Ardennes--in fact, he ken> made the whole thing worse on the northern flank. did he? I know there was a bust up when one of the US generals had his front sliced in half (not literally of course), and the logical thing to do was to pass command to Monty. Ike had to settle the feud and did the logical and correct thing much to the other's anger. As far as I am aware, Monty's policy was to allow the Germans to run themselves down and wait by the Meuse for the tattered remnants to emerge and hit them there - in the meanwhile resting his own chaps... ken> I don't know ken> of any country that would take kindly to that sort of treatment. Well, I guess he felt the same way...in fact is it not a fact that he did resent the US domination of the 2nd half of the war. Whilst this was not healthy for the allies as a whole ("a house divided against itself cannot stand") I believe from the human perspective it is understandable. GB had been pounded for years and had kept the Germans at bay and had paid a price. Along comes the USA, unscathed by all the turmoil and with almost limitless resources to carry the war to the conclusion. It was inevitable that the US would play the major role, and rightly so. It is also reasonable (to me) that the US should have a greater influence in planning the future direction of the war. (Who runs the show it seems to me, is not necessarily a question of who has the most ability. It is a mix of power, influence, and luck as well.) Frankly, Ike seems to have done a good job from what I have read, and I don't think Monty would have been a good supreme commander of the allies. I can understand that the American "directness" would have not gone down well with the British "reserve". I think the problems were somewhat cultural. [ASIDE] A modern example of the cultural differences can be seen in the Gulf - I was living in Denmark at the time and the British won high praise from people I spoke to - not I believe because they outperformed their allies, and obviously not because they had all the firepower - but it was just the manner of the officers speaking in undramatic and almost offhand terms about what was going on - the great British understatement and all that. [END ASIDE] There were of course different aims - I'm not sure how far these would account for the Monty problems - but simplistically (sp?) speaking, the British (already as Churchill had noted in 1919, a spent force) were trying the hang on to the Empire, and the Americans weren't going to put up with that. With both sides pursuing these other agendas in addition to defeating Germany, conflict was bound to happen... time to shut up. steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:59:54 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: U-Boats In USA Waters?? "Did U-Boats ever come near US waters?" you ask. Mon Dieu, are *you* gonna get a lot of replies! :-) There were so many ships torpedoed just off the American east coast, I am told it became a spectator sport for your compatriots. 'Pal of mine in the RCAF did his pilot training in Florida and tells how disgusted he was to see people there taking deck-chairs to sit on the beach at night to watch the tankers being wxploded by U-Boats just a few miles offshore. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:57:13 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Pohlmann I have seen _Schindler's List_ for the second time last weekend, and was interested: Does anybody know why Amon Goeth was in a sanitortium when the war ended? Who found him? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks. ============================================================================ Joseph Pohlmann "The big gun? What's that?" Process Systems Engineer "It's a weapon powerful enough to POHLMANN@PPCLUS.MONSANTO.COM blow up an entire planet!" Cincinnati, OH "Who are we going to use that on?" (513)467-2106 "The Russians!" -from the movie 'REAL MEN' ============================================================================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 21:57:03 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Ardennes John Horner writes > In your Monty message, you threw in a little quip about the American > performance in the Ardennes. I believe you said it was "less than impressive." > I couldn't disagree more. Charles B. MacDonald, in "A Time for Trumpets" > catagorically explains the tremendous heroism and hardship that the US Army > fought through to achieve one of the most important victories of the war. > Yes, the US forces in the Ardennes were not the best equipped troops, nor > were they the pride of the Army. There were many formations there that > were specifically sent there to rest after being hammered in other sectors. > The fact that these units (with meager help from Monty up north - who waited > until the Germans expended themselves) held off the last remaining offensive > units of the Western Front Wehrmacht says a great deal about the impressiveness > of the US Army. MacDonald, who fought there as a second Luitenant (I think) > chose the correct title, it was a "Time for Trumpets." Lets not forget > that Patton from the south and the two US airborne divisions were the real > reason that the Bulge was held. Monty did very little except watch. Hi John! I've read Charles MacDonald too - IMHO good reading. I was not criticizing the fighting prowess of the GIs many of whom fought with distinction - but merely wishing to illustrate that having all the force available does not guarrantee success - and having lots of firepower does not negate the need for good generals and where and how you deploy yor forces is critical. I was answering the point that Monty only won at El Alamein because he [a] had everything he needed at his disposal (questionable), that [b] (implied) Rommel didn't know one end of a rifle from the other, and that (implied) [c] anyone who can play Afrika Korps (from Avalon Hill) could have carried off the defeat of Rommel. As for the Ardennes, It is true that the Allies made the best of a bad job since they were caught unawares... It is debateable whether the allies could have foreseen the Ardennes attack. As far as my limited knowledge goes, the failure to perceive what was going on was a bit of an intelligence fiasco that led to the USA's biggest defeat on the Western Front in WWII. (yes - I know that eventually the "bulge" was eradicated, but did not a goodly number of US forces have to surrender having been surrounded [was it around Schonberg?]?) hoping to learn... steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 22:12:25 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Ardennes Ladies and Gentlemen! A small "ps" should I be misunderstood... In my previous mail I described the point I was making re Monty in somewhat exaggerated terms thus: > answering the point that Monty only won at El Alamein because he > [a] had everything he needed at his disposal (questionable), > that [b] (implied) Rommel didn't know one end of a rifle from the other, > and that (implied) [c] anyone > who can play Afrika Korps (from Avalon Hill) could have carried off the > defeat of Rommel. On reflection, a touch more moderation would have been better... smb ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:35:24 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: The Amber Room: Does It Exist? > I recently finished a book which made many references to a so called "Amber > room" which is so richly adorned that half the world wishes to discover its > whereabouts (forgive the hyperbole). > > I have never heard of any "Amber Room." Could someone please elaborate. > Specifically, is it myth or does it really exist somewhere? Is it possible that > some buck private could have found it and had it shipped home as a war trophy? > > CJW Hi Chuck, The first I heard of it was in the European edition of the Stars and Stripes when I was in Italy in about 1991. It seems some guy was looking for this underground room that had all this amber from East Prussia or maybe it was captured from the Russians early in the war - I don't recall how it came to be. I have a fuzzy memory about it being the stash of Peter the Great or something. Anyway they are looking for it in Leipzig where they thought the Nazis hid it. Anyway there is supposed to be a room full of it and its supposed to be worth a ton of money. It would not surprise me in the least if some GI "Kelly's Heros"ed it. A couple years ago there were lots of articles in the papers here in Texas about this old vet that died and his family in going through his lock box found an old hand copied bible from some town in Germany that was a priceless relic. He also had "found" some artwork that was pretty valuable too. As I recall, the family sold the book back to the church for a sizable sum. There was much litigation as to who owned it. Was it war booty or was it looted? That was the question and they pretty much found that it was the spoils of war. Tough call. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 17:33:56 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ADMIN: FLAG Policy in effect OK, troops, traffic has reached the kick-in point. Please use the flag system outlined in the intro (re-posted after this message), editing subject lines if your system permits (most do, tell me by private mail if yours doesn't). The flag system is enforced when we generate enough traffic to overwhelm the average mortal. Help everyone sort out the threads according to their own interests (you can be creative with the flags and I'm always open to suggestions for new ones). Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 17:34:24 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L In-Reply-To: <9402281716.AA06742@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "Ken Koester" at Feb 28, 94 12:05 pm Revision: 1 November 93 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.) I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further notice. I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end of this notice. WWII-L will be self-moderated. This means that each of you will always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one! Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything that moves over the mails. To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following "flags". They will go FIRST on the Subject: line. (This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise members may use their discretion on the matter.) EDU (For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.) SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap with WEAP) WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon.") POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta Conference) TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs. Single axis") REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.) INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.) DOC (Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War, Speeches, Treaties, etc.) GEN ("Let's find a category for this.") TRV (For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.) VET (For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans) HOME (For discussions of events on the "Homefront". To help distinguish WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format: HOME:US for the U.S.A., HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.) NOST (For Nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.) ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material. Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate an "ADMIN" article.) WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc. Please offer to send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.) MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".) NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the period under discussion. Present day news items should be post under "MEDIA". ARC (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail- able via ftp or gopher. Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives) should be posted under this flag.)) TROUBLE (Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.) Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item should be clear. Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the flags become inoperative. Several short posts are preferable to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote. You should change the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction. If you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper flag. (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down- load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags at all.) You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system. I also solicit additions to this list. Please keep this table handy until you're comfortable with the flags. Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention. While many of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH", "CinCUS", "StuG III", etc. PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your post. Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please translate the "foreign" terms? A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht- am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms. Now we come to the REALLY hard part. Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll come up almost as soon as the group gets started. To save us all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.) I'm not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person change their mind about them. 1. The Holocaust 2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor? 3. (Watch this space...) One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES! You're in tough company here. Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your homework. Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from you own account rather than having me add you to the list. This allows the software to confirm mailing routes as I don't always get your full address in the mail. Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution. SUBSCRIPTION INFOMATION: ALL Messages are to go to: listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu (internet) listserv@ubvm (bitnet) Send the following commands in the body of the message. To SUBSCRIBE: subscribe wwii-l (your name) To UNSUBSCRIBE: unsubscribe wwii-l To turn mail off for a period without unsubscribing: set wwii-l nomail To turn mail back on when ready: set wwii-l mail To Digest (have all postings sent in one mailing per day): set wwii-l digest To restore normal mail (undigest the list.) set wwii-l mail To confirm that your posting has been sent to the list: set wwii-l ack To get a copy of your posting sent to you: set wwii-l repro (Ack will send you a note saying "your file has been succesfully distributed, and repro will send a copy back to you of your posting.. To retrieve logfiles for WWII-L send mail to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu or listserv@ubvm (for bitnet) with this message in the body: get wwii-l log9207c This file will contain all the postings sent to the list in the third week of July. The files are held for two months and broken down by seven day periods (which usually don't coincide with the calendar "week". Thus you might see this kind of entry WWII-L LOG9207A (for 01-07 July, 1992) WWII-L LOG9207B (for 08-14 July, 1992) WWII-L LOG9207C (for 15-21 July, 1992) You can also get the files by ftp if you have access. FTP into ubvm.cc.buffalo. edu and CD to WWII-L. The files are in ascii format and the machine is case sensitive. If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-) Larry J Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT From: DONALD NEWCOMB Subject: Getting back articles and the database From:Larry Jewell Larry, One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet" or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag). _ //Job Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:") index /* _ If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv "help" command and find a complete set of instructions for using the database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience. Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park Enough talking. I can be reached at the following addresses; Larry W. Jewell jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu 2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B JEWELLL@PURCCVM W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571 (317)496-3234 #Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN) WWII-L Listowner jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu # #"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly# #unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." # #--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941. # ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:35:36 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Ardennes Hello, David! Great post, and I fully agree with your remarks. I just wanted to add that Monty wanted nothing to do with the kind of fighting we had to face there. I don't think Monty would have fared well in that kind of fighting; it would have required more generalship than he was capable of showing. If he couldn't control the battlefield then he wasn't going to fight. That is the way I see it. Would appreciate your thoughts, or any others. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:41:02 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Ardennes Hello, Dale! An interesting question and I hope you get to make the trip you want to take by bicycle. I did that many years ago, in fact in 1967. I biked 2000 miles in Germany over a two-month period. I biked from Bernkastel-Kues to Koblenz in a day, and it was an absolutely marvelous trip. The road is flat, no hills, and the road the whole distance lies right beside the river as it does with the Rhine. The Mosel is a much prettier valley I think than the Rhine. There is not as much highway traffic. You can stop when and whereever you want. I just hope you have great weather and that it doesn't rain. It didn't when I made that trip. It is one I will never forget and thanks for taking me down memory lane. If I can help with planning, please let me know. BTW, while passing through Herrlingen, I stopped and paid a visit to Rommel's gravesite. It was interesting. Thanks again. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:46:40 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Monty Hello, Stephen! Yes, Monty was number two choice for command of 8th Army. General Gott was the first choice but was killed in an airplane crash. What a shame! Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 09:28:12 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Foster Subject: Re: Germans and knowledge of KZs In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Mon, 28 Feb 1994 14:36:29 -0600" <01H9G8NPC15E986F09@cc.newcastle.edu.au> >Although there were probably people who either guessed or knew what was I think that Nazi Germany was no different from communist Russia in the sense that to know too much of what was going on in these places let alone spreading it around was definitely detrimental to your health and would normally result in an "invitation" to "visit" the nearest camp to satisfy your curiosity.What would people on the list have done under the same circumstances? Maybe taken a petition to their congressman? I think not Regards John *************************************************************************** "Dear Fuhrer,beaten ve haff been by zer ordinary layabouts,signed Formidable German Army" Spike Milligan layabout Tunis May 7 43 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 00:06:31 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: Where have all the U-Boats gone...? On Mon, 28 Feb 1994, Jeff Dingbaum wrote: > The U.S. also had a U-Boat, the 505, which was the first enemy > vessel captured on the high seas since the time of John Paul > Jones (at least according to the brochures). It is currently I wish they would write better brochures. The US Navy captured several British frigates in the war of, I think, 1812. Emmanuel Gustin