Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 08.100 December 19, 1998 1) non Jewish use of Yiddish (Marvin Meyer Engel) 2) Non-Jews & Yiddish; _khoyzek_ (Mikhl Herzog) 3) bud (Mekhl Zlotowski) 4) bud (Alison Loeb) 5) Songs from long ago (Jack Ludwick) 6) Mendele as a restrictive club (Alan B. Berkowitz) 7) Newcomers (Renee Bock) 8) Trier - Dreyves (Joachim Neugroschel) 9) "aynfarshtendik" (Bruce Mitchell) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: marvin engel Subject: non Jewish use of Yiddish Larry Rosenwald asks about the occurance of non Jews using Yiddish before WWII, Mendele 8.098). In pre WWII Bronx there were densely Jewish neighborhoods that abutted Italian, Irish or other territories. Though we boys had sporadically stormy relations, many of the merchants, i.e.: vegetable vendors, grocers, druggists (We never called them pharmacists), etc. served neighboring eths. Non Jews frequently became adept not only at the specialized vocabularies of their trades in their customers' languages, but often gained a working use of proste spoken Yiddish. A similar source of cross-fertilization was the needle trades. First generation Italian and Yiddish speakers often worked side by side in the same shops. I had a Sephardic-Greek colleague, also from the Bronx, who learned Yiddish while working in his family vegetable store. (Not a non Jew, but a similar process.) My mother, who was dark complexioned, was frequently mistaken for Italian by Jewish vendors, sometimes to their acute embarrassment, as when they inadvertently revealed some slick stratagem. It wasn't a melting pot, but much closer to it in spirit, I think, than more formal educational programs. Marvin Meyer Engel Rockville, MD 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:52:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Mikhl Herzog" Subject: 1. Non-Jews & Yiddish; 2. _khoyzek_ 1. Marginally relevant to Larry Rosenwald's query (8.098) about the non-Jewish use of Yiddish: Scholarly interest in Yiddish can be traced back at the very least to the mid 15th century. From then on, and until the late 19th century, with the single exception of the 16th century scholar, Elias Levita (Elye Bokher), Yiddish scholarship was exclusively the province of non-Jewish scholars. 2. Elozor Oisher (8.098) asks about the word _khoyzek_ 'derision'. It is NOT a word of Hebrew origin although it is one of several words that are given a "hebreoid" spelling in Yiddish (like _baln_ 'interested person', 'volunteer', and names like _kalman_ and _zalman_). I have a recollection that I saw (or heard) _khoyzek_ attributed to Northern German, but I've been unable to verify this. Is there anyone out there who can? Mikhl Herzog 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: M ZLOTOWSKI Subject: bud Re. Aaron Krishtalka's questions: It seems to me that the use of "hobn" has a lot to do with Polish. The very explicit "Ikh hob 'em in tokhes", for instance, is a perfect carbon copy of the Polish "mam go wdupie" (same meaning). It works with most of the other Yiddish expressions I can think of. As to the "Bud", it is not only the location of the silly and stupid, as Reb Krishtalka wrote. In the European tradition going back to the Middle Ages, it was THE place for the bawdy (baud, in Old French, at least according to Webster). As good Jewish boys don't know because they don't go there, in places where you have prostitutes, you also usually have their pimps and related con men. So when one says "gey in bud arayn", the obvious meaning is "get off my back". But the less obvious, and probably unthought of by the speaker himself, has to do with either a sexual or an ill-wishing connotation. In any case, wishing that someone be in hot waters is never a nice thing to say. As we know, Rashi was also a French wine grower living in the city of Troyes in Champagne (no, he didn't invent the bubbly drink). His commentary of the Talmud is studded with 11th century French words written in Hebrew letters, so that nowadays, non-Jewish scholars studying Ancient French read Rashi to know how those words were then pronounced. Which brings me to my query: has Rashi ever written something about the "baud" ? Has sending someone to the "bud" anything to do with a word of Rashi's commentary ? Mekhl ZLOTOWSKI Paris, France 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:17:02 -0500 (EST) From: gunclers@juno.com (Sam H Gunclers) Subject: bud Apologies for writing on a borderline topic, but all this talk of shvitses makes me wonder if anyone can suggest a good resource: My family (maternal side) owned Daniel's Shvitsbud (sp?), possibly the largest shvits in Pittsburgh (closed in the '70s, I think). My grandmother worked there many years, making sandwiches, preparing towels. She told me what many of you already know; the people from the country came to the city for a shvits once a week (leading to the citified prejudice that only "hicks," or dumb people went to the bathhouse?) Two questions: 1) Mickey Katz sang about a bath house in "Shvitsburgh, Pennsylvania"--would that have been about Daniel's? Or were there a whole bunch in Pittsburgh? 2) Does anyone know of a book that addresses the history of the shvits? (We do have a marvelous documentary video, "The Shvits.") Thanks, Alison Loeb NYC 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:08:22 -0500 (EST) From: ANJ50th@aol.com Subject: Songs from long ago Over 50 years ago, my late, beloved mother-in-law, Clara Brody Z'L, spent a lot of time teaching me her beloved Yiddishe songs from her girlhood in Grodno, Poland. To this day, the words remain fresh in my mind and I'm curious to know whether other Mendelers remember these words. A sukkele a kleine fhun bretelach gemaine, vos ich hob alain oifgeboyet, Ich badeck dem dach mit a bissele schach, ich zits mir in sukkele bynacht. Dee vinten dee kalte zai blozen durch dee shpalten und dee lichtlach zay leshen zich ois, Ich mach nit kein chidish, ich mach mein kiddush, Ich zits meir in sukkele bynacht. Tu zaizhe nisht kein naar, un hobzhe nish kein tsar, Der vint vet dee sukka nit umvarfen, Fil tseitens veln kumen, fil vintens veln brumen, Dee sukkele vet shtain oifn ort. Jack Ludwick 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 11:32:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Alan B. Berkowitz" Subject: Mendele as a restrictive club Since I was addressed in Mr. Horwitz's diabribe, I feel a need to response for myself and maybe others. "Reb" Horwitz, at sixty years old, I don't feel that my enjoyment of my forebearers tongue is enough to engage myself in YIVO or going back to kheder. I didn't realize how restrictive this Mendele club was. Kind of reminds me of the social clubs here in Alabama. I enjoyed yiddish on the stages of the Second Avenue Theatre with the comedy of Menashe Skulnick, Molly Picon and Maurice Evans in the early forties. They didn't require a diploma in yiddish before entering the theater... only the price of a ticket. In the same neighborhood, my father took his sons to the Russian shvitz where the men giving us "double Plaitzas" spoke a less than literate yiddish. We came in naked and we exited with a few new yiddih words. No one showed us the door because of our verb-conjunctions weren't perfect. Perhaps Mr. Horwitz can suggest a website that will rid him of us inferior lovers of Yiddish, so that we may enjoy the company of those that would accept our love, though limited, of the language. I repeat what I said before. My grandparents spoke only Yiddish, and were the illiterate women of Poland at the turn of the century. They conversed with each other and with others as well and weren't afraid to speak with the type of snob that might leave mendele if subscribers like me stay. Alan B. Berkowitz 7)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:01:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Renee L. Bock" Subject: Newcomers I happen to be a Sefardic Jew (a Puerto Rican Jew to be exact) who has spent the last semester trying very hard to learn Yiddish. You see, there is a one semester class of Yiddish offered at Syracuse University. Although I really do not have any roots to the language, I do have roots in Judaism. Growing up in the United States as a Sefard can be very difficult. My synogauge in Newark, Delaware was mixed with everyone from orthodox to reform, sefardic to ashkenazic. That made it a little easier, but the US (and Syracuse University) are predominantly Ashkenazic. Anyway, back to my point. I took this class because I felt like I was losing my Jewishness in college. I don't really have time for services or Hillel, so I felt like I was losing my community. We are a very tight community in my hometown. I saw this course and decided to take it, because it offered me a piece of myself that I am missing in college. You all are worrying about spelling things gramatically correct and if things should be translated. Well, I am telling you, as the future of Judaism and Yiddish, this pettiness does not matter. Yiddish has always been a spoken language, allowed to take turns and adopt phrases as it pleases. Let it continue on this path. I know very few phrases and some of them don't help me at all; like, Lomir shpatsirn bam yam. Unless I am near a beach, I will never use that! But that is aside the point. I enjoy learning Yiddish and reading stories by IL Peretz and Sholem Aleichem. So what if my grammar isn't perfect and I need your translations to understand most of the passages you all are writing, at least I am trying. At least I am on this list serve. Remember, I am your future. Do you want to shun me or help me? Renee Bock Syracuse University 8)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 17:58:28 -0500 (EST) From: ACHIM1 Subject: Trier - Dreyves Ane Kleine calls the German town of Trier "Trier" in Yiddish. Actually the Yiddish name is "Dreyves" from Latin "Treves." modern French "Tre^ves". I don't mind if Germans mispronounce the names of their towns--for instance Koeln (Cologne) from Latin "Colonia" or Braunschweig from earlier "Brunswick" But I do wish they'd respect the Yiddish names of towns. I realize that Trier has to some extent displaced "Dreyves" in Yiddish, but why shouldn't the Yiddish term be strengthened and employed? it's gone down in history as the Alsatian name Dreyfus--as in Captain Alfred. But think of the fun you can have making Karl Marx turn over in his grave. Marx, who was born in Trier and whose letters to his parents were in Western Yiddish, didn't much like Jews. So imagine his reaction if he were told he was born in "Dreyves." (I forgive him though because he was a dazzling stylist in German.) Joachim Neugroschel 9)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:35:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bruce Mitchell Subject: "aynfarshtendik" To Joachim Neugroschel: I agree that "aynfarshtendik" is not German at all but of Germanic origin. In fact, I was actually criticizing the purist tendency to do away with good Yiddish words because they sound "too German". Maybe you misunderstood my original posting. Bruce Mitchell ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 08.100 Address for the postings to Mendele: mendele@lists.yale.edu Address for the list commands: listproc@lists.yale.edu Mendele on the Web: http://www2.trincoll.edu/~mendele http://metalab.unc.edu/yiddish/mendele.html