Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 1 no. 150 January 28, 1992 1) Bird watching, etc. (Jonathan B. Horen) 2) Khoyzek makhen (Mina Graur) 3) Standard Yiddish (Moishe-Nussen Eytan) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 92 20:50:49 PST From: horen@rs.COM Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.147 > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1992 11:58 EDT > From: VISWANATH@DRACO.BITNET > Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.144 > > My feeling is that bal and bar may only be used > with nouns and they imply a certain amount of > possession vis-a-vis the noun. This would fit bal > guf, bal agule, bal shem tov, balebos, etc; > > In fact 'ba`al' means 'owner'/'possessor' in Hebrew; that's > the sense of ba`al as husband -- even it dismays some. > > With bar oyfes, I can immediately see bird keeper, > but bird watcher seems farfetched. Perhaps > mistakel oyf (on the pattern of mokher sforim?). > melekh. > > Why not use 'tsoife oyfen' which is even closer to Hebrew; > 'bar oifes' certainly doesn't mean bird-watcher for *me*, > but I ain't neither a native Yiddish nor a native English > (nor even Hebrew) speaker. > Well, I'm not a Yiddish speaker, but I do speak fluent (although a bit yeshivishe) Hebrew. My reactions: 1. "Bal oyfes": Traditional, but reminds me of Burt Lancaster playing Robert Stroud in "The Birdman of Alcatraz". 2. "Mistakel oyf": Nice, but I can imagine Yossel the Birdwatcher who isn't so good at it, who gets things wrong, and ends-up being called Yossel the `Mistayker Oaf'. My contribution: One of my first Rabbeim (and still a long-time friend), Rav Chaim Dovid Ackerman, used to tell me about his grandmother, who was affectionately known as "Gittel the Tillem-zoyger". With this in mind, how about swapping Moishe-Nussen's suggestion from "tsoife oyfen" to a more musical, hyphenated term -- "oyfen-tzoyfer"? Or, taking this a bit further; "oyf" is (in Hebrew) more of a generic term for "fowl" -- usually chicken. Birds are something else. All "oafot" "oafim" (fly), but a "tzipor" (bird) "tziyaetz" (chirps). So; how about an alliterative "tzitzen-tzoyfer"? It combines the birds' characteristic chirping with an allusion to the person sitting while watching (tzitzen/sitzen). In addition, the Hebrew "tzofar" means `horn, siren', so that a small bird's "tzitzen" is contrasted with a larger bird's "tzofer'n". While I'm at it, let me introduce myself -- Yonatan-Berel Horen (although my `slave name' reads Jonathan B. :-) No Yiddish, although my parents spoke it fluently, especially my mother and her sisters. I emigrated to Israel 12 years ago, and returned stateside this past May. Before going to Israel (after returning from Vietnam) I spent some time stationed in Mannheim, West Germany, and I still remember nur ein bisse Deutsche. While learning in yeshiva I spent some time off-and-on playing with a college Yiddish textbook, but didn't learn much more than that "die fareineke staten" means the USA. I'd like to learn the language, but want to do so in a real classroom setting (or, alternatively, from some old-timers -- not that Noyekh sounds like an "alte zachen" type :-) In Israel, the more Chassidische types reserve their Hebrew for tefilot and Talmud, and use Yiddish for classroom discussions and the home. Friends of mine in Brooklyn take this a (nice) step further, using English for the "street" (outside of home and beit hamidrash). It's a good way of separating environments and identities. So. My 2 cents. Nice meeting all of you, and if anyone can help me get started in a more active way with Yiddish here in the South Bay area, I will be most appreciative. Jonathan B. Horen 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 09:52:33 IST From: Dan Graur Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.146 i need enlightment. why "machen choizek" (usually in the negative, "mach nisht kein choizek") means "to make fun of"? Isn't "choizek" derived from "khazak" (Hebrew for strong)? Is it only my southern Polish parents who use this expression? Thanks for the help, Mina Graur Tel Aviv University 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jan 92 15:21:12 GMT From: me@SUZUKA.U-STRASBG.FR Subject: RE: Mendele Vol 1.149 [Leonard Prager writes:] In SYR, Moishe-Nussen would romanize his name Moyshe-Nosn and everyone would pronounce it according to his own dialect/sociolect/idiolect, etc. Hey, Charlie, wait a minute! As I have already told the list, I am a naive Yiddish speaker, not a savant one -- I means I did'n learn it in books. So I dunno what SYR is; I would fain learn it, but feel too old. Vi mn zogt: mn ken nish alte (or should I have written alt?) bern tantsn lernen. _Nosn_ can be pronounced /Nusn/. But regardless of whether or not M.-N. agrees to Nosn, he must acknowledge that the final _n_ is syllabic and the presence of the _e_ before it is derived from NHG and is inauthentic. Thus we should write _vos_, even though the phonological realization of the komets alef in some dialects is /u/. In other words, we all follow the same spelling (here = romanizing) conventions, and if we wish to indicate pronunciation, we use phonetic notation. Yeah, you *can* decide to spell the Kamats 'o' in SYR, but that woulda mean that everyone knows enough Hebrew to realize that /nusn/ carries originally one. It doesn't fluster *me* (I started going to `heder at age 4), but I believe that would be too demanding even of SYR-bred yiddishists. As for the 'e' or not 'e' I don't give a damn, if it make Leonard happy. And the 'phonetic notation', reduced to putting inside /'s words that *English-speaking* fellers would pronounce in some supposed way, is most unsatisfactory; unless you can use IPA (and in ascii you just can't!) it's worthless. I notice that the subject of how to romanize Yiddish is constantly being raised in _Mendele_ and we will have to keep hammering at it until we reach a a sensible and civilized consensus. There is indeed a problem of writing non-roman alphabets in e-mail, I believe I have already given my opinion on the matter to the list. But why *romanize* Yiddish? We could, eg decide to *hebraize* English. Let us beware of 'sensible' and 'civilized'; I know of no more ethno- centric words: the meaning always depends on who is speaking. The notion of spelling by ear to placate one's ancestors is touching but totally impractical depends for whom -- and also inconsiderate of one's colleagues who are kept guessing what you are trying to say. Would you guess that I have to guess what you mean by writing Litvish -- which SYR really is, a la fin des fins? Moishe-Nussen ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol 1.150