Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 2 no. 164
March 21, 1993
 
1) Du/ir to relatives (Shleyme Axelrod)
2) Dutsn/irtsn (Elyet Hersh Gertl)
3) Yo, yoy, and ye / dutsn and irtsn (Mikhl Herzog)
4) Dutsn and irtsn (Noyekh Miller)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri Mar 19 16:57:24 1993
From: PTYAXEL@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: du/ir to relatives

Like David Sherman, I am puzzled by Peyrets Mett's
puzzlement about using "dir" in speaking to one's father
(or mother).  It wouldn't have occurred to me (parents were
native-speaking litvakes) to do anything else. Shver (or
shviger), though, got "aykh", even in the singular.

Weinreich's dictionary (Yid-Eng portion) gives "dutsn" and
"irtsn" for using the familiar and polite forms,
respectively.

--Shleyme Axelrod

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri Mar 19 18:45:56 1993
From: EGERTEL@FULLERTON.EDU
Subject: dutsn/irtsn

[Vegn Daniel Moishe Shermans bamerkung (2:163) mekoyekh
Pe'rets Metts bamerkung (2:162)]:

Ikh gleyb az der khilek hot mer tsu tun mit
gezelshaftlekher svive eyder rayon. Bay uns in der shtub un
oykh bay ale kroyvim hot men genitst un nitst men nokh alts
DU/DIR/DAYN az me redt tsu eyn mentshn (eyntsol/loshn
yokhed: andersh gezogt: 2ND PERSON SINGULAR) UN
IR/AYKH/AYER az me redt tsu tsvey oder mer mentshn
(mertsol/loshn rabim: 2ND PERSON PLURAL).  {Agev,
interesant iz az di mame zogt IR un AYKH bes di mume -di
mames shvester- zogt ETS un ENK khotsh zey zenen beyde i di
mame i di mume fun Brod(y), Galitsie vu beyde zenen
oyfgetsoygn gevorn; efsher do hot di mame gekumen unter der
heshpoe funem tatn maynem...}

Eyn zakh veys ikh kimat af zikher: az kinder dutsn yo di
tate-mames un farkert. Vos Mordkhe Shekhter hot uns amol
dertseylt in klas iz az nor bay intime batsiungen nitst men
DU/DIR/DAYN.  Efsher in unser meshpokhe zenen mir nor
informele mentshn un efsher iz dos di hashpoe fun english
vos ironish hot kimat in gantsn avekgevorfn di familier
forme fun tsveyter perzon un ibergeblibn iz bloyz di
benimesdike forme: YOU.  Kh'hob bamerkt az a sakh mentshn
nitsn DU un IR vi azoy men nitst zey in unzer meshpokhe.
Biz kh'hob zikh ongehoybn lernen yidish in a mer formeln
oyfn hob ikh keynmol bamerkt dem untersheyd tsvishn a
familerer un a benimesdiker forme.  We used DU for any one
person that we were addressing directly and IR when we were
talking directly to two or more un shoyn.

Vos di frantsoyzn rufn "tutoyer" iz af yidish DUTSN, the
        verb for employing the familiar form of address in
        the 2nd person singular: DU/DIR/DAYN.

Un farkert, der verb vos bashraybt di benimesdike forme af
        yidish iz IRTSN which indicates the use of the
        polite form of address for the second person
        singular: IR/AYKH/AYER.  (Agev, vos zogt men az me
        nitst ETS/ENK, "ETSN?")

In a zats volt men gekent zogn, "Reb Shmuel, meg ikh aykh
dutsn?"  Un avade entfert der Reb Shmuel, "Vos epes dutsn?!
Vos meynt ir, az ir zent mayn kind! Neyn, lomir vayter
irtsn zikh eyner dem tsveytn."

Elyet Hersh Gertl

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri Mar 19 21:59:07 1993
From: zogur@cuvmb.columbia.edu
Subject: 1)yo, yoy, and ye 2)dutsn and irtsn

"joj" in Litvish Yiddish is new to me, David; ;
Transcarpathian "joj" rhymes with "doj" 'here' and
"shloyfn" 'to sleep'. Work out the processe change and
merger. In any event, it's NOT ther vowel of "kojfn/kejfn".
Litvish "je" may well be a morphophonemic front vowel
alternant of an original back/like "a". Consider
"dakh/dekher". I don't know off hand bu there a German word
meaning somethging like 'to say yes' that would have
umlauted "a"?

As for addressing parents, either "du/dir" or obliquely
"vos vil der tat di mameshi"? Not likely "ir/aykh".

Mikhl Herzog

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri Mar 19 1993
From: nmiller@dot.trincoll.edu
Subject: dutsn un irtsn

In berimtn film "La Grande Illusion" fun Jean Renoir vert
dertseylt vegn krigs-gefangene Frantsoyzishe ofitsirn in der
ershter velt-milkhome.  Ofitisirn: raykhe, oreme, gelernte,
proste khay-v'kayem.  Un tsvishn di alle gefint zikh eyner a
Capitaine de Boildieu, an aristokrat mit an oyszeyn vi me
hot bay im di kapote tserisn.   

Fregn di andere bay de Boildieu: alle fun unz rufn zikh
eyner dem anderen "du".  Farvos zogst du bloyz "ir"?  

Shtelt oys de Boildieu af zey a por oygn un makht: "Je dis
'vous' a ma femme et 'vous' a ma mere."  Heyst es, az afile
mit eygene iz er a fremder.

Kukn im on zayne khaverim vi men kukt on a beyz-vunder. 
Endlikh ruft zikh on eyner (er hot in lebn aza zakh nisht 
gekholemt): "Tiens!" (bl"z: host amol gehert azoyns?).

Iz vos?  Iz a svore, Reb Dovid, az efsher hot rayon venig
tsu ton mit dem inyen.  A guter plan volt geveyn ven me
fregt by Pe'rets Mett.

Noyekh

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End of Mendele Vol 2.164