Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 3.175 December 19, 1993 1) "Posuk"/"Ferz" (Reuven Rachlin) 2) "Daytchmerizmen" and "Tante/Mime//Onkl/Feter" (Michael Shimshoni) 3) Loose rules (Vicki Fromkin) 4) "Daytshmerizmen in Old Yiddish" and "lezn" (Marion Aptroot) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat Dec 18 22:19:15 1993 From: "Robert D. Rachlin" Subject: "Posuk"/"Ferz" Recently I ventured a reply to a question whether there was an alternate Yiddish word for "posuk." I suggested "ferz" and added that it was likely cognate to the German "Vers(pl.-e)." One correspondent, whose identity I regret I do not recall, commented cogently that "Vers" was one of those German words where initial "V" is pronounced like a "v" rather than life an "f." He therefore doubted that "Ferz" would derive from "Vers." I took the liberty of consulting a German scholar at the University of Vermont who told me that "Vers" does indeed begin with a "V" sound, like most German words of Latin origin, but that many Germans pronounce it "ferz." Thus, I'm inclined to stick by my surmise that "ferz" and "Vers" are as cognate as appearance would suggest. In any event, a sheynem dank to the correspondent who raised the question, as he induced me to make further inquiry and learn something useful. Reuven 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun Dec 19 03:35:30 1993 From: Michael Shimshoni Subject: Re: "Daytchmerizmen" and "Tante/Mime//Onkl/Feter". As a yekke, who heard no Yiddish at home, and taught himself some passive knowledge (reading with Hebrew or Latin letters) of Yiddish, I would hesitate to join the ongoing discussion about "Daytchmerizmen". I just wonder if in the pro and con arguments take sufficiently into account the variety in Yiddish spoken at different places. I know here in Israel many people from Romania (certain parts of it) who speak German fluently (somewhat of the Austrian version), but at the same time, use Yiddish as their first language when speaking within the family. It *seems* to me that they have a greater tendency to use in Yiddish more of what might be called "Daytchmerizmen" than some people of Polish origin. Now I will let you have the benefit of my Yekkish background, and being able to consult with my mother and another yekkish friend as well, and would like to comment on what Marnen Laibow-Koser wrote on the subject "Tante/Mime//Onkl/Feter": >Well, as long as the pot is boiling, I might as well stir it. ;> I >don't know how many Mendelnikes know this, but "Tante", "Muhme", >"Onkel", and "Vetter" (German spellings) are *all* German kinship >terms. There would be nothing particularly unusual about this, >except that in German "Vetter" and "Muhme" mean "cousin"! (I think >"Vetter" is usually, but not exclusively, male; I'm not sure about >"Muhme".) Anybody know how this shift in meaning came about? While all these terms *are* German kinship ones, both Vetter and Muhme are used less and less. Anyhow in German Muhme was never a term for a cousin but for and *aunt*. Vetter is exclusively used for a *male* cousin, the female term being Base. My personal experience from my distant childhood was that we still used Vetter, but also Cousin (German sp?) but did not use Base in our daily speaking. Muhme I have also never heard in daily usage, and know it only from older books. Tante and Onkel were used not only for the relevant kins, but for all older persons one was close to. Onkel Fritz was used rather than Herr Kohn which was the term used for people known less intimately. Michael Shimshoni 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun Dec 19 16:28:08 1993 From: Vicki Fromkin Subject: loose rules re the continuing discussion on 'loose rules in Yiddish'. I suggest that anyone who still believes the grammatical rules in Yiddish are less constraining than in English for example should reread Ellen Prince's clear, lucid explanatory discussion on linguistic grammars (internalized knowledge of one's language) and the use of such 'rules'. This also gives me the opportunity to publicly (to Mendele's public, that is) thank Ellen for doing such an excellent linguistic tutorial. Well, Ij think it is excellent even if some of the 'students' didn't seem to get the message. Vicki Fromkin 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun Dec 19 16:40:52 1993 From: Marion Aptroot Subject: "Daytshmerizmen in Old Yiddish" and "lezn" Reyzl Kalifowicz-Waletzky's diatribes about Yiddish can be amusing. However, it is dangerous to state opinions as facts without anyone being able to check the statements. Many Mendele subscribers are Yiddish enthusiasts who may take any thing stated with force as "Toyres Moyshe" or - lehavdl - Gospel truth. I would like to know how Kalifowicz-Waletzky can justify the use of the term "daytshmerizmen" when discussing Old Yiddish and also why she thinks "leyenen" is older than "lezn". I would never dare to make that statement, and I have spent many an hour reading pre-modern Yiddish texts. Although I haven't paid particular attention to the first appearance of these forms, my hunch is that both preexist written evidence. Am I right when I suppose Kalifowicz-Waletzky thinks that "leyenen" must be older because of Weinreich's hypothesis that the first Yiddish speakers were originally speakers of a romance language? If so, this seems to me to be an example of circularity. Marion Aptroot ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 3.175 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a Subject: line. 2. Sign your article. Send submissions/responses to: mendele@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Other business: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu Anonymous ftp archives available on: ftp.mendele.trincoll.edu in the directory pub/mendele/files