Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 3.179
December 22, 1993

1) Frage, khutspe, anger, etc. (Mikhl Herzog)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed Dec 22 05:24:46 1993
From: ZOGUR@CUVMB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Frage, khutspe, anger, daytshmerish, af, kin, Bravo

1. Sorry, Reyzl, "frage" is not "an alt yidish vort". If Khayim
didn`t actually know it, he should be congratulated for a very good
reconstruction. It has nothing to do with the whole "kashe--shayle"
business. At least until the end of the 18th century (see Moyshe
Markuze's "Seyfer refues", Poryck 1790), the word in Yiddish was
"der frog"!!! Furthermore, if you will look up your various
mnemonics, you'll recall the "kheyder" devices for teaching children
Hebrew. In a very long mnemonic of rhymed couplets that starts with
"oymer iz a zoger", the only one that doesn't rhyme is the very next
one: "shoyel iz a FREGER". Surely, we must infer that it had
previously been "froger".

I'm not sure Khayim is right in suggesting that Yiddish somehow
"lost" the word-final (unstressed) "e". I've spoken of it in those
terms, too, in the past but I would now sooner favor the view that
Yiddish NEVER HAD the final ubstressed vowel. All we CAN infer from
the very few German-origin Yiddish nouns that end in unstressed "e"
(frage, grupe, di dame, a mase mentshn, others??) is that they are
probably of relatively recent origin. Which leaves us to deal with
the problem of what, if anything, the old-timers said in place of
"di libe".

"Un, az men redt (ret?) shoyn vegn libe" where do you find time for
Josh and the kids? "In mayne yorn shloft men nit baynakht. Ober du
(shall I say, "mayn kind"?) bist nokh yung".

2. Abe Igelfeld, zolstu nor lebn un zayn gezunt. There is NO other
community in which people would show such little respect for the
language they profess to love. One would expect some degree of
reticence, some willingness to listen and learn before jumping into
the fray with such certainty about everything. Much is often
misattributed to Max Weinreich, but I know he did say the following.
"One of the differences between an English speaker and a Yiddish
speaker is that when an English speaker hears a word he doesn't
understand, 'makht er a shvayg' and looks it up in Webster's. A
Yiddish speaker writes a letter to the Forverts and insists that
there IS no such word. It all seems to be part of the sociolin-
guistics of Yiddish and there's probably not much anyone can do
about, despite the feeling of outrage that comes over you. Perhaps
there's an MA or PhD in the topic for someone. If the word "khutspe"
had already been used as a book title, it would be worth considering
for such a study.

3. Can we please lower the decibel level, the degree of anger,
someone said 'tantrums', the excess of pontification, the
ideological certainty that has come to characterize so much of our
discussion of late. "Es past poshet nit". I`m reminded of something
Martin Horowitz (are you out there somewhere, Martin?) once said in
a seminar during a discussion of the world-shaking issues involved
in some matter of Yiddish spelling (or was it about "daytshmerish"?).
Being a Russian scholar, he found an apt description in the phrase
"revolutionaries out of power".

3. As for "daytshmerish" as against "daytshish": The former MAY stem
from "daytsh + merish (i.e., Moravian). Don`t hold me to it.

4. Back to "af-of-oyf". I think Schaechter overstates the case of
"af" in the Ukraine. In the Northern Ukraine, i.e. in Volhynia),
yes. To the South, it's "of" in the so-called "tote-mome" area, to
be distinguished in origin from Central Yiddish "of" despite the
fact that they sound the same.

5. Blumke Kirshenbaum: whatever the individual deviations people
report, I think the scheme you describe provides the historically
appropriate explanatory model for the "tante/mime" and "onkl/feter"
phenomenon. In an earlier message, I added the Western Yiddish
"oma/fra:le" and "opa/harle" dichotomy for the grandparents among
Jews from Germany. Any confirmation out there? Bob Hoberman?

6. I join in the kudos to Ellen Prince. Fun eloquence iz shoyn
opgeredt. But such patience!

Be well, all.

Mikhl Herzog.

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End of Mendele Vol. 3.179

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