Mendele: Yiddish literature and language ______________________________________________________ Contents of Vol. 4.164 November 6, 1994 1) Riseven; "family words" (Dovid Braun) 2) (On)riseven; more on Yeke (Mikhl Herzog) 3) Risivn (Robert Shapiro) 4) "Di Kishef-Makhern" (Dovid Braun) 5) Reply to Zev bar-Lev (Dovid Braun) 6) "Meki" (Martin Davis) 1)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 23:53:33 EST From: dovid@mit.edu Subject: Riseven; "family words" To Dave Sherman: _riseven_ is 'draw'. It doesn't (necessarily) denote the random, haphazard or careless marks that are produced by patshken or mazhgen. With regard to "oysgetrakhte verter": your family's "salat-ontuekhts" for 'salad dressing' comes from somewhere, viz. it's calqued from English. Now, only you, Surele and the kids use it so it's a family word, but it has a source, and an identifiable one at that. I was talking about the oft-heard perception that a particular word or phrase is purely, plain and simple oysgetrakht. To use the _mazhge_ example, I could imagine that whoever it was who asked Daniella HarPaz what "mazhgee (around)" meant thought that some- body put together some funny sounds (funny to the English-oriented ear, that is) and used it as a verb to denote some sort of haphazard activity. If the person wasn't Yiddish-literate and heard it only within a limited context (home, one specific individual at work, what have you), s/he might have con- cluded that the word itself was just as random as its meaning. And falsely concluded this. (Veho-raye: it's in the dictionary. Granted, not all words are in the dictionary, so the more likely for an obscure usage to be thought to be oysgetrakht.) Dovid Braun 2)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 12:16 EST From: zogur@cuvmb.columbia.edu Subject: (on)riseven; more on Yeke 1. (on)riseven Dave Sherman: This is a relatively late acquisition in my own vocabulary, synonymous with "(on)tseykhenen" 'to draw'. Come to think of it, "riseven" is probably cognate with English "write". Dave, I was sort of expecting you to comment on the recent assertion that Toronto was, historically, an "unYiddish" city-- Toronto, "a shtu:it fin poylishe yidn", the city where Zionist youth recited Bialik in Yiddish, sang Yehuda Halevi in Yiddish. What say you? 2. Yeke Bob Hoberman: I don't offer this biographical note as authoritative but, for whatever it's worth, I should say that the word "yeke" was never part of my "original" Yiddish vocabulary: nor have I ever encountered the word in Yiddish literature, where "daytsh" is a more likely designation for the German Jew (at least, one in modern dress). In my own experience, the word is part of my pre- and poststate "youth-movement"-derived vocabulary. It entered both my Yiddish and my English along with words like "pOntsher", "makhanE", "aliyA", "kibbUtz", "shalOm", "bitakhOn", etc. Perhaps it was imported into the Yishuv during the German Aliya in the 20's, and exported from there. By the way, a former colleague, a historian of Latvian Jewish origin, born(?) in a DP camp, insisted that in her European experience, "Yeke" was a designation for Germans, not Jews. Perhaps Dorothy Bilik can tell us more. She has worked/is working? on the image of the German (Jew/non-Jew?) in Yiddish literature. Does the word crop up. Mikhl Herzog 3)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 18:04:31 -0500 (EST) From: shapiror@yu1.yu.edu Subject: Risivn Regarding David Sherman's use of "risivn" for scribble: In Polish, rysowac is to sketch or draw. Robert Shapiro 4)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 02 Nov 1994 23:58:24 EST From: dovid@mit.edu Subject: Where can one find "Di Kishef-Makhern" a.k.a. "Koldunye" Mr. Zalmen Srebro, chairman of the Yiddish Culture Club of Boston, is trying to find out where/whether Avrom Goldfadn's Di Kishef-Makhern or Koldunye is printed. Does anyone have this information? Dovid Braun 5)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Nov 1994 00:29:22 EST From: dovid@mit.edu Subject: Reply to Zev Bar-Lev I think it's a mistake to refer to a "YIVO grammar and lexicon". There are no such things and I truly believe that it's not helpful to introduce such concepts into a discussion of Yiddish standards and standardization. Not that Z. Bar-Lev has introduced it, as in 'coined the term'. It is a common belief that there is a YIVO-sanctioned Yiddish, or for that matter a YIVO-invented Yiddish. It's a misunderstanding, in my opinion. The actual standardization tendencies in Yiddish haven't received serious attention, as I see it; and an investigation of the standardization tendencies has to be stated relative to the actual facts of the spoken (and written) language, and this latter part is even more neglected than the former. (I.e., to know why a linguist or publication preferred the form X, we also have to know what forms X was in competition with and what forms X was a reaction to.) A cover term such as "YIVO Yiddish" (in contemporary usage) usually means no more than the standardization preferences given in U. Weinreich's dictionary and beginners textbook (_Modern English-Yiddish Yiddish- English Dictionary and _College Yiddish_, respectively). Since these two books were published by the YIVO, "YIVO Yiddish" might be the Yiddish that a student, let's say, has learned if s/he has used only these two books. Just like someone who learned their French in language courses at the Sorbonne might be said to speak "Sorbonne French" -- just because s/he learned it there, not because there actually is such thing as a dialect/register of French spoken in or sanctioned by the Sorbonne. It is probably linguists and Yiddish academics only who will understand the surface I am trying to skim, and I apologize for the opacity. I'm waiting for my sabbatical :-) :-) :-) :-) to be able to discuss this more at length, and in a CLEAR fashion. Dovid Braun Iker-shokhakhti: The transliteration (not to mention the native orthography) of _many_ languages is a source of debate (and, indeed, probably a turn-off to those who are just interested in learning the basics and getting the bare _facts_). I don't think I understood the point of your posting. Should those who _are_ in command of the basic facts not discuss issues that they have a stake in, so that those without a command won't be turned off? Doesn't everyone have a scroll-ahead command or a delete button? 6)---------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 94 11:46:38 -0500 From: davism@turing.cs.nyu.edu Subject: "Meki" Shleyme Axelrod writes: > Far "scrotum" in mayn litvakisher mispokhe mit a zekhtsik yor tsurik in > Bruklin hot men gezogt /meki/ oder /mekele/--at least, in referring to a > young boy's scrotum. Is this term known to anyone else? Biz ikh hob gelernt andre verter in gas fin kinder, is "meki" gevehn di aynstige vort far "penis" dos ikh hob gekent. Mayn mishpokhe iz geveyn fun Lodz. "Penis" not "scrotum". I don't recall any family word (English or Yiddish) for "scrotum" or "testicles". Martin Davis ______________________________________________________ End of Mendele Vol. 4.164 Mendele has 2 rules: 1. Provide a meaningful Subject: line 2. Sign your article (full name please) A Table of Contents is now available via anonymous ftp, along with weekly updates. 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