Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
______________________________________________________
Contents of Vol. 4.178
November 12, 1994

1) 'Israelite' in France (Harold L. Orbach)
2) Evrej (Howie Aronson)
3) Gib zhe mir dayn piskenyu (Dovid Braun)
4) Der Forverts (Khayim Friedman)
5) Redt and ret (Mikhl Herzog)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94 16:37 CST
From: hlorbach@ksuvm
Subject: Re: 'Israelite' in France

Dvorah Halperin Biasca (4.175) asks:

Can anyone comment on the possibility of a dual naming system in Russian
like we had/have in the US for the Yiddish language (Jewish vs Yiddish)?
For Jewish people in general (unless this is not an appropriate subject
for Mendele)?  For example, in France, they call me an Israelite  rather
than 'Juive.'

I can't answer about the dual naming system in Russian, but the most
likely reason for being called an 'Israelite' in France rather than
'Juive' has to do with offical policy and politeness.  When France
granted citizenship to Jews after the Revolution (1789) it followed a
general process of recognizing all citizens as "French," i.e., France has
not recognized nationality/ethnicity.  This has extended to the present
day in schools, education, etc., and indeed has been a matter before the
High Court of the European Community since EC policy has been to
recognize "minority" language rights.  [Their version of
"multiculturalism" or "diversity."]  So, "Jews" were officially
recognized as a _religious_ community before the state, i.e., as the
"Culte Israelite" much as other religious bodies were recognized.  Even
today, the most common guide book to Paris will list Temples and
Synagogues under "Culte Israelite" not, as in the U.S., "Jewish." The old
telephone books did the same and I assume so does the "Minitel." It is a
form of officially denying national/ethnic differences and there has
never been any form of "hyphenated" Frenchmen or Frenchwomen.

The politeness factor arises from the fact that calling someone "Juive"
in France, up to the present, has always had -- to some degree -- a
negative connotation associated with it, and most often is conjoined as
an adjective to a noun (not too different from the US! -- at least as I
was growing up -- Jewish landlord, Jewish banker, Jewish lawyer ...). In
1983, at an official reception for the then Minister of Social Affairs
and later Prime Minister Pierre Beregevoy, in his offical residence, I
had a French colleague tell me that although Beregevoy was offically and
publicly identified as the son of a Roumanian immigrant, he was actually
Jewish.  In this case the person was _not_ making a nasty remark about
him but "explaining" a disguised fact.  The reason for the "disguise" was
something I was assumed to know as did 'tout Paris.'  I never, even to
the time of his tragic death, ever saw him publicly identified as being
Jewish.  Of course, the fact that he was, like almost all French liberals
and socialists, not religious, meant you couldn't identify him that way.
It also is a curious co-incidence that the rebuke to France over the
language rights of ethnic/national minorities (Alsation, Breton, Arabic,
... ) came when Beregovoy was Prime Minister and in partial response to
public statements of his about all French citizens being French and thus
speaking French, etc. ...

It is the case, however, that a growing number of French Jews have begun
to create a sense of "Jewish" identity and to use 'Juive' as we do in the
US and Canada, but old linguistic habits die hard ...

Harold L. Orbach

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 23:37:22 -0600
From: hia5@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Evrej

Dvorah Halperin Biasca (Mendele 4.175) inquired about the terms for "Jew"
in Russian (with regard to Prokofiev's work "on Yiddish (sic!) themes.

In Russian (and, in general, all Orthodox countries of Europe), the
original word for "Jew," -zhid- became tabooed, although it remains the
standard word for Jew in, e.g, Roman Catholic Slavic countries. The
tabooed word for "Jew" was replaced by a word meaning "Hebrew," Russian
-evrej-, adj. -evrejskij-. So Russian -evrejskij jazyk- (seemingly
"Hebrew language") meant "Yiddish." This created a problem: how do you
say "Hebrew"? This became -drevneevrejskij jazyk-, lit. 'ancient
Hebrew/Jewish language.' Consequently, Yiddish was also known as
-novoevrejskij jazyk- 'New Hebrew/Jewish language.' You can imagine the
problem that arose when Hebrew was revived! How could one speak about
-novodrevneevrejskij jazyk-? (lit., new ancient Hebrew/Jewish). As a
result of this problem, the terms -ivrit- 'modern (Israeli) Hebrew' and
-idish- 'Yiddish' were introduced. The word for Jew remains -evrej- (m.),
-evrejka- (f.).

The tabooing of -zhid- seems to have begun in Russian and spread to the
other Orthodox Slavic lands (Belorussia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Macedonia,
Serbia) as well as non-Slavic Orthodox states (Rumania, Georgia).

Howie Aronson

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 23:54:41 EST
From: dovid@mit.edu
Subject: Gib zhe mir dayn piskenyu

To Arre Komar:  It's not "pishkenyu" but _piskenyu_, from _pisk_
'animal's snout' and, by extension, 'mouth (of a human)'.  When used of
human anatomy, _pisk_ usually has a derogatory or voyl-yungerish
connotation (like English 'trap' in "Shut your trap").

Dovid Braun

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 10:41:17 -0500
From: harveyf953@aol.com
Subject: Der Forverts

i have just come across a number of forverts newspapers in philadelphia
that were published in the mid 40's. is there a library or a yiddish club
that may be interested in some of the copies. although they are in
excellent condition, since they had been in an attic for the past 50
years they are somewhat mildewed.

Khayim Friedman

5)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 94  23:12 EST
From: zogur@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Subject: Redt and ret

Meylekh Viswanath:

zogn, zogt men take "ret"; shraybn, shraybt men ober "redt", say mit
yidishe oysyes, say ven men transkribirt zey. Farvos?

The "terets" is simple. In all dialects, the verb "zingen" and "zinken"
yield "er [zinkt]". Similarly, in some dialects, the verbs "shtern" and
"shtekhn" both yield "er [shtekht]". If, as in some Yiddish idiolects,
there are two verbs "redn" 'to speak' and "retn" 'to rescue', both may
yield "er [ret]".

A principle of Yiddish spelling, and the prevailing principles of its
transcription, is to preserve the morphological integrity of the word. We
must therefore distinguish "er zingt/shtert/redt" from "er
zinkt/shtekht/ret".

But you knew all of that, no?

Mikhl Herzog

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