Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
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Contents of Vol. 5.033
June 28, 1995

1) Pronouncing "Tevye" (Harvey Spiro)
2) Pronouncing "Tevye", fil (Dovid Braun)
3) Translating of Yiddish (David Sherman)
4) Translation programs (David Lechner)

1)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue Jun 27 10:17:10 1995
From: hjs@nrc.gov
Subject: Dzigan's pronunciation of the name "Tevye"

In Mendele 5.030, Bob Werman comments on the apparently Hebraicized
pronunciation ("Tovya") of the name Tevye that was used by the well-known
Yiddish comic Szimon Dzigan when he performed in Israel.

> On the other hand, Shimon Dzigan, in Israel after the second war
> is uncomfortable with this pronounciation ...

My guess is that Dzigan was responding to the rather precarious position
of Yiddish in "ertsisruel," the promised land, where Yiddish was at best
barely tolerated until very recently.

Bad enough that this incorrigible ghetto Jew should speak the language of
galut in the proud land of khalutzim, to a roomful of vuz-vuzim who can't
even speak Ivrit. At least he knew enough to sprinkle his Zhargon with
lots of modern Hebrew vocabulary, and he corrected his pronunciation of
names like Tovya to their "proper Hebrew form."   Besides, what did that
guy "Shalom Aleichem" know about Hebrew?   :)  :)

Although the term "political correctness" may be new, the concept is old.

Harvey Spiro
Vienna, Virginia

2)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 17:41:11 EDT
From: dovid@mit.edu
Subject: Tevye, fil

Responses to Bob Werman and Arre Komar:

Bob, which Dzigan recording were you referring to (i.e. where is it that
he calls Tevye [toyva])?  And Did you mean the spelling t-o-y-va or was
this a typo?  (The only possibility for a male's name that looks like
this is toyvye.  _toyve_ is a 'favor'.  And no native Yiddish word ends
in the sound [a] -- well, maybe two or three very uncommon ones.)

Arre Komar, I've never encountered the distinction that you mentioned
between _fil_ and _a sakh_ and have never seen such a distinction
discussed in Yiddish linguistic literature.  Your feeling that there is
such a distinction probably comes from your knowledge of English.  By the
way, I'm confused as to what sound the "h" in _fihl_ (your spelling) has.
Please explain.

Zayt mir ale gezunt un shtark--

Dovid Braun

3)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 13:22:01 EDT
From: dave@cai.lsuc.on.ca
Subject: Translating of Yiddish

I don't think a computer program to translate from Yiddish is going to
help much.  Most Yiddish texts that people are trying to get translation
help from seem to be letters written by their great-grandparents and the
like.  A computer will only help you once the information is already
digitized and the alphabetic content is known.

I find the wide range of Yiddish scripts fascinating.  I suppose it's not
really any different than the wide range of English scripts; it's just
that I'm so familiar with English that I can read most people's writing.
An old Yiddish letter, on the other hand, can vary from clear to totally
unintelligible (where I can barely make out a letter of the alef-bays).
Has there been much written on Yiddish cursive styles?  Do they follow
regional patterns, for example?  (Will Mikhl Herzog give us an Atlas of
Yiddish script styles? :-)

David Sherman
Toronto

4)----------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 18:28:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: lechner@jcl.lib.ks.us
Subject: Translation programs

My knowledge of Yiddish is still so rudimentary as to be almost
non-existent (although I find I am understanding more and more of what I
have read here on Mendele, for which I thank all of you most heartily).
I have, however, worked as a professional translator of German (to/from
English) on occasion and have also worked with Swedish and Norwegian, so
perhaps I can speak on the question of machine, or computer-assisted,
translation.

There is a great deal of study being done at many universities to perfect
such automatic translation, but at this stage, the researchers are still
looking for a modern day philosopher's stone. It is fairly easy to create
software which will match words between two languages; the problems creep
in when the two words have differing ranges of meaning and choices have
to be made.

The next major hurdle is dealing with the different syntax in the two
languages and recognizing and allowing for idioms.  German's "Man kauft
keine Katz im Sack" doesn't make too much sense as "don't buy a cat in a
sack" but has the same sense as "don't buy a pig in a poke" (whatever a
"poke" is :) and assuming the idiom `flies' in one's regional variety of
English.

I know a lot of people hold great hope for machine translation, but at
this point -- at least in my experience -- for anything other than the
simplest of tasks and sentences, it requires nearly as much time for
cleaning by a human post editor as would be required to have the job done
solely by a human translator.

Again, I realize that others may have higher opinions of machine
translation, and I do _not_ mean/wish to set off a flame war, but this is
my honest reaction to the notion of computer translated Yiddish.  And
thanks again to all of you who so regularly share your love of and
expertise in Yiddish!

David Lechner

______________________________________________________
End of Mendele Vol. 5.033

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