>aquarium thermometer be accurate enough? > Yes. You can also estimate by using your candy thermometer...that's what I do. Figure on adding 85 degree +- 5 degrees to your starter. It's not a big deal because your refrigerated starter is going to cool it off anyway. It'll warm back up to the temperature of your proofing area in an hour or two anyway. >2. How do you maintain a jar at 85 degrees for several days? I notice that I bought a thermometer from Ace Hardware that has blue and red 'hand's that you can adjust to be very close to the temperature indicating 'hand'... it's a round thermometer with numbers on the face...not one of those mercury or alcohol ones. Anyway, this thermometer allows me to see not only the temperature of an area, but also the colded and hottest temperatures over a period of time. Most people use some type of thermometer to check areas that could be possible proofing areas. For example, when I want a 75 degree proof, I put my bowl of starter on the kitchen table and set the air conditioning to 72 degrees for a day. When I want an 81 degree proof, I place my bowl of starter on the top shelf of my coat closet...which happens to be right next to the furnace/water heater closet. The temperature is very stable there. When I want an 85 degree proof, I place the bowl of --MORE--(68%) starter in my oven, turn on the light, and leave the door most of the way open...closing the door gives me a 98 degree proof (for pancake batter). The best thing to do is to invest in a good thermometer and experimentally find locations in your place of living that seem to stay at stable temperatures for long periods of time. >3. What is hooch? I was picturing a jar of starter with a tiny Vietnamese >village on top (cluster of hooches), but I don't suppose that's it. Having >not seen hooch, I don't find the term self-explanatory. > "Hooch" is a commonly used term for the water and alcohol mixture that forms on top of the starter if it's proofed or aged long enough. Alcohol is a byproduct of yeast as it digests starches. Rumor has it that old sourdoughs (people) would collect the hooch and drink it for something to do during those long cold winters in the great white north...yummy! BTW, hooch is a yellowy or clear liquid, and it quite often doesn't appear until the starter has been refrigerated for awhile. Brian D. dixon@spot.colorado.edu End of article 109 (of 113)--what next? [npq] Article 125 (40 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: grady@fraser.sfu.ca (A. Brian Grady) Subject: baking on clay tiles discovery Message-ID: Keywords: clay, baking Sender: news@sfu.ca Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1992 20:11:51 GMT Lines: 14 Thought I'd pass on this discovery. I recently went down to a store that sells floor tiles and picked up 9 unglazed clay quarry tiles (5 1/2" square). (At 50 cents each, this compares favourably with a $30 clay pizza stone). I lined the oven rack with these and baked freeform loaves on them after having put a pan of boiling water on a rack directly underneath. I don't know why, but my freeform loaves love this: I get lots of oven spring and a nice crust. On a metal tray, they would tend to spread rather than rising high. Does anyone else find this too? -- Brian Grady --MORE--(93%) grady@sfu.ca -- Psychology Dept, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC. End of article 125 (of 133)--what next? [npq] Article 133 (39 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: grady@fraser.sfu.ca (A. Brian Grady) Subject: Re: baking on clay tiles discovery Message-ID: Keywords: clay, baking Sender: news@sfu.ca Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada References: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 01:38:24 GMT Lines: 34 More on baking on clay tiles: Details were requested. I've only done it a few times, but the results have been consistent. The quarry tiles were from a large tile store that sells tiles for flooring. They knew immediately what quarry tiles were, which was good, since I had only read about them. They are 5 1/2" square and about 3/8" thick (14 cm square by 7mm thick). 9 of them line my oven rack completely; this prevents air from circulating, so I use 6. In a slightly larger oven, 9 would be ok. The tiles have little nubs on the bottom so that they don't slide around on the rack and are very smooth on top. --MORE--(49%) I preheat the oven with the tiles. To create steam, I put a pan of boiling water on the rack directly under the tiles. Meanwhile, the freeform loaf is rising. I've tried greasing a cookie sheet, the flouring it and covering it with corn meal to make sure that the dough does not stick, and then sliding the loaf onto the hot tiles. I've also let the dough rise in a floured basket (the french call this a banneton) and turned it upside down onto the tiles. Either way works. I wish I had one of those wooden pizza peels. Then just bake the bread as usual. I havn't had it stick to the tiles at all. Apparently one benefit of using tiles in a conventional electric oven is that they store the heat and make for a much more even baking temperature. That is, when the oven door is opened, little heat is lost, and so the elements do not have to blast the oven and create large occilations of heat. This apparently is good for bread. Another benefit is that the tiles are quite porous, and they draw moisture out of the bottom crust, making it crisper than it gets on a metal sheet. -- Brian Grady grady@sfu.ca -- Psychology Dept, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC. End of article 133 (of 133)--what next? [npq] Article 147 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: kenr@cruise.cc.rochester.edu (Kenneth C. Rich) Subject: Re: has anyone ever tried feeding a starter with corn flour? Summary: yes Message-ID: <1992Aug12.184057.22697@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> Date: 12 Aug 92 18:40:57 GMT References: Sender: kenr@cc.rochester.edu Distribution: na Organization: Me of (Rochester, NY) Lines: 34 Nntp-Posting-Host: cruise.cc.rochester.edu In article swells@triton.unm.edu (Earth-daughter) writes: >i was thinking of attempting to make my own starter up here in the >Jemez Mtns (where many Anasazi used to live), and it occurred to >me that i might try it with fine blue corn flour. >shannon tmprb CORN: I was just out there with me starter along! My usual bread both there and here in upstate NY is 50/50 wholewheat pastry flour and --MORE--(43%) yellow cornmeal. Where i was last week all i had was some coarse white corn meal and it was great. Blue corn makes a wonderful purple bread. Haven't tried a 100% corn bread. The only small problem i see with all-corn starter is that it isn't gooey like wheat so it doesn't catch the bubbles as much and all the descriptions of what a starter looks like in the FAQs and postings won't be of any use to you. Do it! Navigate by nose. STORAGE: Halfway thru my stay in NM i stopped cooking, mixed the remainder of my cornmeal into the starter to make a moist fluffy mix and left it sitting in a yogurt fez in a box in a closed car for a week. It seems to have survived fine, I'll have the word on whether it survived in a few days when i get back to cooking, but it smells divine. If this works, it might be a better form for transport of starters since it seems a moist environment would be better for the survival of lactobacilli. RYE: And a note to (wasn't it) Julie out there, I still haven't done the measuring to give you the rye-corn bread recipe, but since my trip i have requests for the wheat-corn (basically the same) recipe from people who might get even if i don't follow thru. So RSN... --MORE--(96%) -- -ken rich hmmmmm... kenr@cc.rochester.edu End of article 147 (of 211)--what next? [npq] Type h for help. End of article 147 (of 211)--what next? [npq] Article 175 (72 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Subject: Culture Questions Message-ID: <1992Aug13.154123.23215@acd4.acd.com> Summary: how do starter ingredients affect culture Keywords: starter,culture Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN References: <1992Aug13.153736.23124@acd4.acd.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:41:23 GMT Lines: 26 I recently purchased a book by Ada Lou Roberts titled "Sourdough Breads and Coffee Cakes" (Dover, $4.95 ISBN 0-486-24529-2) that seems pretty good. She gives recipes for several starters that don't even use commercial yeast! What seems especially interesting to me is that the recipes have some initial ingredients that are not used when doing subsequent proofs. Some examples are peach tree leaves and hops. The ingredients are steeped in water at the boiling point. I assume that this will kill anything that might be on them that could contaminate a starter. --MORE--(55%) Is it possible that the non-renewed ingredients could selectively encourage certain strains of yeast and lactobacilli over others? I am also curious about the effect of the salt in the starter recipes. I thought that it tended to inhibit culture growth. If anyone has experimented with these starter recipes, I would appreciate hearing about the results. Do the cultures appear different? If so, how do they differ? The author indicates that they do but gives no details. -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) P.S. I have gotten an active culture going based on just all-purpose flour and water from whatever critters are floating around my home. I will post the results when I find time to cook up something. For those of you wondering, I am smack dab in the middle of the midwest. It IS possible to start your own cultures there! End of article 175 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 174 (72 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Subject: Re: Proofing boxes Message-ID: <1992Aug13.153736.23124@acd4.acd.com> Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:37:36 GMT Lines: 58 As requested, here is the information on the egg incubator I bought. It consists of a molded styrofoam container that is approximately 16 inches square by eight inches tall. It is formed from cupped top and bottom halves that fit together using a stepped lip around the top edge of the bottom half. The bottom half has concentric raised ridges on the inside bottom that are meant to hold water to raise the humidity. These ridges are heavy enough and close enough together to support a bowl containing bread dough. The top half contains a viewing window (plastic), the thermostat assembly, and the heater assembly. The thermostat is centrally mounted and hangs down about four or five inches inside the box. The heating element is contained inside a thin metal tube (1/8 inch diameter) that is shaped in a rounded square about 12 inches wide. It is mounted about one inch in from the --MORE--(42%) roof of the box using screws and metal clips. Since it is only 30 watts, it seems to be a safe method. Since it is too short, I plan on extending the box by constructing a four sided sleeve of styrofoam sheeting and duct tape. It seems like the simplest way to get exactly what I need for a proofing box. As Mr. Dixon pointed out, you can just mount the thermostat and heating assemblies on a board and use your oven or cooler as well. I understand that they may be purchased separately from the manufacturer. The product name is the "Little Giant" incubator. The manufacturer's name, address, and phone # are: Miller Mfg. Co. 494 Villaume Ave. So. St. Paul, MN 55075 (612)451-1761 Telex 29-7033 If I mangled the description, I'm sorry. You might want to find a retail outlet that carries them and examine it to determine what parts you wish to order. The local stores that carry them are Tractor Supply Co (TSC) --MORE--(73%) and Rural King. Look under the farm supply section of the yellow pages. I personally found it simpler to just buy the complete unit rather than try to assemble my own. The price difference for the parts I needed, when you include shipping, was less than five dollars. The parts numbers for the thermostat and heating element assemblies are as follows: 5201 - Element Clip 5202 - Element 5204 - Adjustment screw and wing nut 5205 - 5 ft. Power cord 5206 - Indicator light (on when element is heating) 5207 - Thermostat switch assembly (includes thermostat switch, bracket, and insulator shield). 5208 - Thermostat wafer (the gas filled disk that actuates the switch) The whole incubator (including thermostat, etc.) is kit number 5200. -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) End of article 174 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 176 (71 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: kneading stretch test discovery. Message-ID: <1992Aug14.125655.14041@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 14 Aug 92 17:56:55 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 54 Here is a discovery I made this very morning before comming in to work: In "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" a test is given to determine whether or not you are done kneading dough. That is you stretch the dough and if it will stretch paper thin you are done. This worked fine for me when I was following her instructions for a whole wheat bread, but when I tried it with my white bread I had problems. I usually make the white dough not nearly as wet as she recomended for the whole wheat. After all it usually rises ok, and I am trying to avoid the difficult sticky knead. --MORE--(37%) The problem this poses for me is that the dough is a little more rubbry in this not so wet state, and when I try to stretch it thin it just won't take it. I can get it to the thickness of cardboard and then it rips, no matter how long I knead it. Then this morning I discovered the secret. I just need to handle the stretch test a little differently. Instead of grabbing a corner and trying to pull I need to take it very slowly. Grab the whole dough wad, and grabbing it in two hands slowly and gently squese a flat spot in the center like I am beginning to stretch the dough out to make a pizza crust. After the first squeze-tug let the dough relax a bit. It will recoil and try to assume its original shape. Then give another gentle tug-squeze just like when you are shaping the pizza dough, and let it relax. Repeat this, carefully and slowly just like for stretching the pizza dough, only you don't stop when you get to the thickness of the pizza dough and you don't stretch the whole wad out flat, just an area. It will keep going until it is indeed paper thin. I discovered that I could quit kneading after about 1/3 of the --MORE--(80%) time I had previously supposed. (10 or 15 min for one loaf instead of the 30-45 min I was doing and never meeting the test before.) Needless to say this makes it much easier to make a loaf. The effort to knead a loaf is much less than I had suppossed. It sure took alot of words to say something so simple. :-( --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 176 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Type h for help. --MORE--(96%) From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands) Newsgroups: rec.food.cooking,rec.food.sourdough Subject: Re: REQUEST: Russian (Scandanavian?) Black Bread Message-ID: <1992Aug18.193804.10429@u.washington.edu> Date: 18 Aug 92 19:38:04 GMT References: <1992Aug18.165326.8648@zia.aoc.nrao.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 39 mgraham@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Maggie Graham) writes: > > When I lived in Finland, I was able to buy very black bread that > was wonderful. I don't think it was pumpernickel alone, tho that > may have been a constituent. It tasted a little sweet (molasses?) > and I think it may have had some rye in it also. I also remember > being told that the recipe was orignally Russian, tho I can't > be positive that is correct. > Iknow this description is vague but Are there any Scandinavian or > Russian people out there who know what I am talking about and > could post or email a recipe to me? > --MORE--(70%) > Thanks in advance, > maggie. > Maggie - there is a black bread recipe in the FAQ files. It looks like what you want, but I have not tried it, maybe David Adams has. They can be had by anonymous FTP from ftp.ils.nwu.edu the files are in the pub/sourdough directory. (user: anonymous pw: your id) the files are: FAQ.basic_bread FAQ.brine.cure FAQ.culture.bank FAQ.recipes FAQ.sauerkraut FAQ.sourdough FAQ.starter.doctor black.bread (and various mail archives). --MORE--(97%) -Rebecca (zola@u.washington.edu) End of article 215 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 216 (65 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands) Subject: baking tiles, &c... Message-ID: <1992Aug18.195955.11823@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: zola@u.washington.edu Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:59:55 GMT More on quarry tiles for baking: I set my tiles directly on the oven rack, and have been making mostly pizza since I purchased them. It works FINE to do it this way. If you use cornmeal under bread or pizza you can dust it out when the oven is cool, or you can just put a cookie sheet on the next rack down to catch any cornmeal or excess bits and pieces. I have had no problem doing this at all, and I like the results. If a bread can stand alone on a cook ie sheet I would think that there is no reason that it would not bake as well directly on the bricks. The trick with pizza is getting it onto the bricks. (tiles) I use an upside-down cookie sheet (or round baking sheet) with cornmeal or flour to get from point a to b. The dough slides right off the cookie sheet and onto the tiles. Once it has cooked, the pizza is easily removed from the oven with a large spatula (or really just anything that will allow you to --MORE--(59%) scoot the pizza) onto a cutting board that is held even with the tiles. It is crisp enough to just push. I have found it easiest to get the dough onto the tiles first, then add toppings after about 3-5 minutes in the oven. I save the cheese for the last thing, about 3 minutes before it is done. I priced round pizza bricks at $29 this weekend. And the Williams-Sonoma catalogue says about the same for thinner tiles that fit into a cookie sheet. I bought enough tile for $5.46. These are unglazed, and as has been said before, it is the glaze that is the problem with leads, not the clay. Clay that is used now is lead-free. If anyone wants any more gory detail on this mail me. I got my starter in the mail yesterday! Yipee! I am so excited, my other starter got tossed, so I am ready for more. If it is complete failure or raging success I will post some note about it. -Rebecca zola@u.washington.edu End of article 216 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 232 (64 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dvw@trumpet.att.com Subject: Something besides wheat and rye... Message-ID: <1992Aug19.141759.13903@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 19 Aug 92 19:17:59 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 23 Hello After lurking for awhile I now need help with a bit of a dilemna. After getting a couple of starters going slooowly from whole wheat, and finding "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" looking lonesome in Waldenbooks, I now have been taken off of wheat (not just gluten, wheat) due to suspected allergies. Most (if not all) of the recipies in LKBB have some kind of wheat in them. Does anyone have recipies or knowledge of a good book for making bread WITHOUT wheat? Alternately, has anyone substituted another grain (spelt, amaranth, buckwheat, etc.) for wheat in any of the "Laurel's" recipies? (Something besides rye, I like rye, but can't fathom eating it forever and ever.) What was the --MORE--(90%) result? Thanks. --- Diane Wilkerson | AT&T Bell Labs | Me for President. dvw@violin.att.com | (908) 615-2704 | End of article 232 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 233 (63 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dvw@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (diane.v.wilkerson) Subject: Something besides wheat and rye... Message-ID: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Date: 19 Aug 92 21:06:42 GMT Distribution: na Organization: AT&T Lines: 24 (I posted this to the mailing list also...) Hello After lurking for awhile I now need help with a bit of a dilemna. After getting a couple of starters going slooowly from whole wheat, and finding "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" looking lonesome in Waldenbooks, I now have been taken off of wheat (not just gluten, wheat) due to suspected allergies. Most (if not all) of the recipies in LKBB have some kind of wheat in them. Does anyone have recipies or knowledge of a good book for making bread WITHOUT wheat? Preferably sourdough, but at this point any bread will do. Alternately, has anyone substituted another grain (spelt, amaranth, buckwheat, etc.) for wheat in any of the "Laurel's" recipies? (Something besides --MORE--(82%) rye, I like rye, but can't fathom eating it forever and ever.) What was the result? Thanks. -- Diane Wilkerson | AT&T Bell Labs | Honk if you hate all of the presidential candidates... ..!att!cbnewsh!dvw | (908) 615-2704 | End of article 233 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 237 (59 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Stan England) Subject: Re: Something besides wheat and rye... Message-ID: <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> Date: 20 Aug 92 18:30:20 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> Sender: news@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM Reply-To: thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com Distribution: na Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR. Lines: 18 Diane asked if anyone knew of recipes for bread made from something other than wheat. I recall seeing an article in The Oregonian, (Portland paper) about a woman who has written a book about cooking without wheat. Seems she also has an allergy to wheat and that it is quite common. She became so frustrated at the difficulty in finding recipes, that she compiled her own cookbook of various wheat-free recipes she had found. I don't recall the authors name, but the title was something like "Wheat Free" Perhaps another newsreader might recall who this was and post a --MORE--(76%) more thourough answer, if not do check out your bookstore, as this was a fairly recent publication. -- Stan England | Tektronix Customer Support Center thomase@tekig5.pen.tek.com | BBS (503) 627-5658 Voice (503) 627-2400 Searching: England,Doss,Lang,Moody,Davies,Butler in AL,TN & GA End of article 237 (of 239)--what next? [npq] Article 238 (58 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: pamhall@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Pamela Hall) Subject: Re: Something besides wheat and rye... Message-ID: <1992Aug20.211958.28484@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Date: 20 Aug 92 21:19:58 GMT References: <1992Aug19.210642.12430@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> <6658@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM > Distribution: na Organization: Western Washington University Lines: 6 There's a book entitled "Wheat-free, milk-free, egg-free cooking" by Rita Greer. However, I certainly don't think all the recipes are geared to bread-making! Anyway, it's in paperback for $3.95 with an ISBN of: 0-7225-0832-8 and the publisher is Thorsons Publisher Pamela End of article 238 (of 239)--what next? [npq] End of article 248 (of 250)--what next? [npq] 248 Article 248 (54 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: Wood's book, etc. Message-ID: <1992Aug21.150803.22903@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 21 Aug 92 20:08:02 GMT References: <16849B599.M23231@mwvm.mitre.org> Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 73 In article M23231@mwvm.mitre.org, M23231@mwvm.mitre.org () writes: |In article <1992Aug17.175357.13756@acd4.acd.com> |cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) writes: | |> |>Well, I got my copy of "Sourdoughs from Antiquity" by Dr. Wood on Friday. |>As I said in an earlier post, his company was selling "seconds" for $15. |>They were supposed to have minor defects that made them unsuitable for |>regular sale. |> |************** |Would someone please e-mail me the address for ordering this book? | --MORE--(25%) |Thanks, In FAQ.sourdough we have the following: >From: wilkins@scubed.SCUBED.COM (Darin Wilkins) Recently a local newspaper's food section had an article about sourdough bread starters that might be of general interest. My summary follows: In the mid 80's a pathologist, Dr. Ed Wood, held a position in Saudi Arabia. Wood is an avid bread maker and, realizing he was in the birthplace of bread, explored local bakeries in his spare time. In particular, he searched for sourdough cultures that had been passed down from the beginning of civilization. He persuaded local bakers to part with some of their historical starters and took them home to Cascade, Idaho. There he dried the starters to a form that allows them to be reconstituted with the addition of warm water and flour. He also subjected sourdough starters from other parts of the world to the same treatment. His collection now includes bread starters from 8 regions: --MORE--(52%) the Yukon, San Francisco, France, Austria, Egypt, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. Each starter imparts a unique flavor or texture to bread. French sourdough is mild, but rises well. Bahrain sourdough is one of the most sour, while Yukon sourdough is moderately sour. He says the Saudi sourdough has the most distinctive flavor and the most overrated is from San Francisco (!). He calls the Russian starter his most aggressive starter, able to handle heavy doughs. He has started a business selling the starters, which may be ordered by credit card at 208-382-4828. They cost US $10.50 each. Also, they can be ordered by sending check or money order to: Sourdoughs International PO Box 1440 Cascade, ID 83611. In addition Wood wrote a cookbook, _World Sourdoughs From Antiquity_ (Sinclair Publishing, $23.50), which includes 137 recipes for sourdough baked goods. The book, which comes with a free starter of your choice, may be ordered with a credit card at 800-888-9567. (or at the previous number. This is the number for Sinclair Publishing. The previous number --MORE--(84%) is the number for Sourdoughs International.) Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle References: <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:19:25 GMT In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) w rites: >Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all. >I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles >started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite >vigerous. > >In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the >new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature >enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?), > >I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ? > >RYE --MORE--(34%) > >r.senjen@trl.oz.au Bread takes practice, but you should be able to start making sourdough pancakes now. Here's a simple recipe I use -- The night before, mix one cup starter, one cup flour, a bit less than one cup warm water in a medium to large bowl. Cover loosely (I just place a plate on top of the bowl), and let sit in a warm place overnight. (Don't forget to replenish your starter by adding flour & water to it too.) In the morning, about 1 & 1/2 hours before breakfast, mix in one egg, 1/4 cup milk, roughly 2 tablespoons cooking oil (to keep the pancakes from sticking to the griddle), 2 tablespoons sugar or oil, and one teaspoon salt. Now let this sit for an hour to an hour and a half. It will become foamy. Heat up the griddle until it's hot. To test for proper temperature of the griddle, throw a few drops of water on it. The drops should dance frantically before evaporating. --MORE--(66%) Now spoon out the batter onto the grill. I make my pancakes roughly sand-dollar sized (maybe 4 inches diameter). If you can't afford the extra hour & a half rise-time in the morning, add a teaspoon of baking powder with the other ingredients, and cook right away. Now eat up. Try a few without syrup, butter, or anything, just to see how your starter is doing. I don't think you need to wait 6 weeks to make bread. After years of using my commercial-yeast-based sourdough starter, I just began a starter using flour, potatoe water, and honey (2 cups, 2 cups, 2 tablespoons). Now on the third day, it's settling down to a good sourdough aroma. I plan to use it for bread-making within the week. The only reason I can think of waiting 6 weeks (or 6 months, or a year) is that the flavor develops over a long period of time. That gives you something to look forward to. Ken Pollard, Seattle pollard@u.washington.edu --MORE--(99%) End of article 249 (of 250)--what next? [npq] 249 Article 249 (53 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: pollard@milton.u.washington.edu (Ken Pollard) Subject: Re: made my own starter yeah ! Message-ID: <1992Aug21.211925.24830@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle References: <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:19:25 GMT In article <1992Aug21.003127.8975@trl.oz.au> rye@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Rye Senjen) w rites: >Hey Hey ! I made my own starter, no trouble at all. >I mixed folur and water and let it sit around, the bubbles >started appearing after 4 days and now it seems quite >vigerous. > >In the australian book on sourdoughing it says taht the >new starter needs at least 6 weeks till it's mature >enough to raise bread, .... Any opinions on that (?), > >I guess in the meantime i will just feed the little mosnster ? > >RYE --MORE--(34%) > >r.senjen@trl.oz.au Bread takes practice, but you should be able to start making sourdough pancakes now. Here's a simple recipe I use -- The night before, mix one cup starter, one cup flour, a bit less than one cup warm water in a medium to large bowl. Cover loosely (I just place a plate on top of the bowl), and let sit in a warm place overnight. (Don't forget to replenish your starter by adding flour & water to it too.) In the morning, about 1 & 1/2 hours before breakfast, mix in one egg, 1/4 cup milk, roughly 2 tablespoons cooking oil (to keep the pancakes from sticking to the griddle), 2 tablespoons sugar or oil, and one teaspoon salt. Now let this sit for an hour to an hour and a half. It will become foamy. Heat up the griddle until it's hot. To test for proper temperature of the griddle, throw a few drops of water on it. The drops should dance frantically before evaporating. --MORE--(66%) Now spoon out the batter onto the grill. I make my pancakes roughly sand-dollar sized (maybe 4 inches diameter). If you can't afford the extra hour & a half rise-time in the morning, add a teaspoon of baking powder with the other ingredients, and cook right away. Now eat up. Try a few without syrup, butter, or anything, just to see how your starter is doing. I don't think you need to wait 6 weeks to make bread. After years of using my commercial-yeast-based sourdough starter, I just began a starter using flour, potatoe water, and honey (2 cups, 2 cups, 2 tablespoons). Now on the third day, it's settling down to a good sourdough aroma. I plan to use it for bread-making within the week. The only reason I can think of waiting 6 weeks (or 6 months, or a year) is that the flavor develops over a long period of time. That gives you something to look forward to. Ken Pollard, Seattle pollard@u.washington.edu --MORE--(99%) End of article 249 (of 250)--what next? [npq] Article 250 (52 more) in rec.food.sourdough: Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough,rec.food.cooking From: zola@hardy.u.washington.edu (Queen of the Netherlands) Subject: maggie's request for black bread (RECIPE) Message-ID: <1992Aug22.003359.774@u.washington.edu> Sender: news@u.washington.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: zola@u.washington.edu Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:33:59 GMT Well, since David said that the ftp file did not have coffee in it ( and I didn't look at it before I posted that note about the archives) here is another recipe from _Bon Appetit_ October 1978. Have fun baking- Rebecca cut here :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- **Russian Black Bread** Try this bread warm from the oven, thickly buttered and --MORE--(33%) topped with thin slices of sweet red onion. Makes 2 1-pound loaves -- 4 cups rye flour 2 cups whole bran cereal 2 envelopes dry yeast 2 tablespoons caraway seeds, crushed 2 teaspoons instant coffee 2 teaspoons salt 1 teaspoon sugar 1/2 teaspoon fennel seeds, crushed 2 1/2 cups water 1/4 cup (1/2 stick) butter 1/4 cup white vinegar 1/4 cup dark molasses 1 ounce (1 square) unsweetened chocolate 2 1/2 to 3 cups unbleached all purpose flour 1/2 cup water 1 teaspoon cornstarch -- --MORE--(50%) Lightly grease large bowl and 2 8-inch layer cake pans. Set aside. Combine first 8 ingredients in mixing bowl. Combine 2 1/2 cups water, butter, vinegar, molasses, and chocolate in 2-quart saucepan. Place over medium heat and cook, stirring frequently, until chocolate is almost melted but mixture is still lukewarm. Turn into mixing bowl and begin beating. Gradually add flour, 1/2 cup at a time, to make a soft dough, and beat about 3 minutes. Turn dough onto lightly floured board. Cover with bowl and allow dough to rest 10 to 15 minutes. Knead dough until smooth and elastic, about 10 to 15 minutes, adding additional flour as needed. Place in greased bowl, turning to coat entire surface. Cover with plastic wrap and hot, damp towel and leave in warm place until doubled in volume. Punch dough down and turn onto lightly floured board. Shape into two balls and place in prepared pans. Cover with plastic wrap and leave in warm place until doubled. Preheat oven to 350 degrees F. Bake breads 40 minutes. Combine water and cornstarch in saucepan and bring to boil over high heat; boil one minute (1 minute). Brush lightly over bread and return bread to oven --MORE--(92%) for about 5 minutes, or until tops are glazed and loaves sound hollow when tapped. Remove from pans and allow to cool on racks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of article 250 (of 250)--what next? [npq] Heat a cup of lowfat milk to about 90 deg. Mix into this 3 Tbsp plain yogurt (I used yogurt with active culture). Cover and let stand for 18-24 hours until curds have formed. Mix in 1 cup flour, let stand in warm place f From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: from the mailing list Message-ID: <1992Aug24.105019.18409@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 24 Aug 92 15:50:18 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 75 # From: schatz@void.rtsg.mot.com (Steve Schatz) # Subject: yogurt starter All this talk about yogurt, I though I'd mention the sourdough starter that I use which was started from store bought yogurt. Before joining this list, and not really knowing much about sourdough, I started making sourdough bread from the recipes in the Sunset Bread Book. The starter recipe (as I remember it) is as follows: Heat a cup of lowfat milk to about 90 deg. Mix into this 3 Tbsp plain --MORE--(26%) yogurt (I used yogurt with active culture). Cover and let stand for 18-24 hours until curds have formed. Mix in 1 cup flour, let stand in warm place for 2-5 days until bubbly. Store in the refrigerator. The starter is used by adding equal parts of warm milk and flour, proofing, and returning 1-2 cups back to the refrigerator. This starter is called for in all of the sourdough recipes, but only 1 or 2 cups. This book also calls for yeast in every single recipe - I have left it out and adjusted the rise times. I make a 3 flour (whole wheat, white and rye) brown sourdough bread with it. The final rise takes about 2-3 hours. The starter is very active. When proofing for a recipe, this starter will add about 25-30% in volume when going from cold to warm, so I have to be real careful to put it in a large enough bowl for the amount I am making. I have been using it for about 6 months and have probably made 3 dozen loaves. About a month ago I started a goldrush starter and got my first decent bread from it last Saturday. At this point, the yogurt starter is about as sour as the Goldrush, but the flavors are different. --MORE--(63%) I have not read of anyone else using a starter like this, but you might want to try it. The bread turns out real well. Steve Schatz Phone: +1-708-632-7090 FAX: +1-708-632-2431 Motorola INC. schatz@rtsg.mot.com # Subject: Sourdough # From: jackson@src.honeywell.com (Mike Jackson) David, My first loaf turned out great! I put about 2 Tbs starter into 1 cup of water and 1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour when I got home friday night. I stirred it saturday morning. I compared the descriptions of classes of starter from the starter.doctor file and I decided it was healthy. --MORE--(82%) Saturday night, I fed it enough so I could make bread on sunday morning. Sunday morning, I mixed up a 1/3 batch of the "World" Bread recipe and kneaded it in my automatic bread maker for about 15 minutes. I removed it and put in in a buttered bread pan in the oven with the light on and a pan of hot water. Let rise for 3 hours. It rose more than double into a nice loaf. I baked for 10 minutes at 375 and 30 minutes at 350. It tastes great! Even my wife was impressed. Thanks for all your help. I'll let you know if I try any experimenting. Mike Jackson End of article 255 (of 263)--what next? [npq] Article 263 (39 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Subject: more on the biology of sourdough Summary: sourdoughs are biologically complex, but some things are known Message-ID: Date: 25 Aug 92 00:08:53 GMT References: <1992Aug10.155325.6097@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: delwiche@bio.indiana.edu Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 105 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu I've been slow to respond, but we were having a bit of a discussion about the biology of sourdoughs, and in particular the place of San Francisco sourdough in the context of other sourdoughs. One key question was whether or not there was solid evidence for a relationship between where (geographically) the dough is made and the microflora of the dough. It turns out that there has been a fair bit of research done on the microbiology of sourdough, and I have been trying to catch up on that. I'll try to write what I have to say in a way that people who are --MORE--(18%) really only interested in baking a good loaf of bread will be interested, but I'm going to include some references, so forgive me if this gets a little dry for the non biologists. In article <1992Aug10.155325.6097@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article 3Iu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Char les Delwiche) writes: >|It seems to me to be fairly well demonstrated that there ARE different >|kinds of sourdough, and that the pacific coast sourdoughs are >|distinctive. > > >I am not so sure that this is well demonstrated. Specifically whether or >not there is more variation in culture characteristics from place to place >on the west coast, or from region to region across the country, or from >continent to continent. (No argument at all about whether or not there are >different kinds of sourdough.) [deleted text] >I really wish we had some people in this group who were able to contribute >any additional information, but as far as I am aware there is not >a whole lot of study done beyond this. I'm still working on the core question as to the relationship between the San Francisco microflora and San Francisco sourdough. I can --MORE--(36%) report that at least several Bay Area microbiologists I know are of the opinion that there _is_ a relationship between the two. There is, however, good evidence that wild taxa can and do invade sourdough starters. For example Loenner et al. (Current Microbiology 20: 201 1990) found that "during fermentation of bakery sour dough, strains other than the inoculated starter gradually became dominant in the microflora". This article is also of interest because it studied the plasmid content of bacteria in sourdough starter (if you know what that means, you might want to look at the paper). Other studies have looked at fair numbers of starters, and compared their microfloras. Galli et al. (Microbiologie-Aliments-Nutrition 6:345 1988) looked at 20 starters and found a pretty wide variety of lactobacilli and yeast. In all the cultures they looked at, lactobacilli outnumbered the yeast. Sourdough is like most other microbiologically produced foods in that the fermentation is complex, with each batch going through an ecological succession of different taxa. In other words some critters start early, but get wiped out later on by other more slowly growing critters. (There is a lot of literature which is aimed at getting a good sourdough starter into continuous culture, which is what you want if you are going to mass-produce sourdough). This means that just counting species present isn't really going to tell you what is going on, but a culture --MORE--(58%) with a significant population of _Saccharomyces cerevisiae_ (baker's yeast) is going to be quite different from one with _S. exiguus_, because those two species don't do the same thing biochemically. Most importantly _S. exiguus_ can't ferment maltose (a sugar), which is essential for _Lactobacillus san francisco_. What is important for sourdough is what combinations of taxa are present. The yeasts and lactobacilli live in loose symbiotic associations, where they depend upon other taxa to digest foods that they can't digest themselves, but they also have to live with taxa that don't compete for the same basic food (for example maltose). In the context of european sourdoughs, the microbiology of the San Francisco sourdoughs is rather unusual. I'm waiting for more information on the work done by L. Kline, M. Miller, T. Sugihara and others at the USDA in Albany, CA, (the "San Francisco study" referred to previously), and will post more when I know more about those studies. For those of you who read German (not me), there is a lot out there for you to read. There is a book that sounds great: Handbuch Sauerteig. Biologie, Biochemie, Technologie [Sourdough Handbook. Biology, biochemistry, technology], by G. Spicher and H. Stephan (1984), ISBN 3-922528-37-6. If anyone finds that in English (or --MORE--(78%) Spanish) I'd like to have it. I have done a partial literature search, and have two or three hundred references on academic studies of sourdough, but I hate to post such a thing to the net. It wasn't at all hard to find these references; I basically just went to a CD ROM and typed "sourdough" and "sour dough", and up popped enough references to keep me busy. If you don't have access to the appropriate databases, and you want to get serious about the sourdough scientific literature, send me direct email, and I will upload and email what I have to you. One practical thing I gleaned from the literature: be really careful with the salt concentration in your starter and dough. The salt concentration can have an enormous influence on the leavening capabilities of your sourdough (see Galal et al., _Cereal Chemistry_ 55:683 1978). If you are trying to cut down on your salt, better not do it by leaving the salt out of your dough. At least that is what the literature says, and it is consistent with my own baking experience. What have other people found? I hope I wasn't too boring... -- --MORE--(95%) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 263 (of 263)--what next? [npq] 315 Article 315 (64 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: villi, lactobacilli & dormancy Message-ID: <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:23:58 GMT Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 41 One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage. This should have some strong implications for the debate that has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough cultures. 1) There is no yeast involved in the villi culture so there is no question about whether just the "yeast alone survived". 2) The villi culture responded and made villi. Villi is --MORE--(41%) distinct enough from yogurt that I could be certain that this was not just yogurt. The probability that I just happened to have a local strain of villi on my fingers at the time I tried to revive the villi culture seems to be extremely remote. The most likely explaination is that the villi culture came in the mail from Seismo Malm and that it did indeed survive the drying process. 3) After arriving in the mail the packet with the dried villi culture from Seismo remained in my freezer for a period of three months before I made any atempt to revive it. This seems to prove that the lactobacilli can survive long periods of dormancy in frozen conditions. (This seems so reasonable--It would have to in order to survive winters in the wild before being domesticated.) On the otherhand, if you follow the "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" you might propose the theory that the infinite improbability drive caused the Heart of Gold to pass through every point in the Universe, picking up a villi culture in Finland and depositing it in my culture jar just to satisfy my wishes. ;^) --MORE--(91%) --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 315 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 327 (62 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough Message-ID: <1992Aug28.171653.3709@hemlock.cray.com> Lines: 21 Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: Date: 28 Aug 92 17:16:52 CDT uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu (Christina Callihan) writes: |A plasmid, once it's in a bacterium, is duplicated, expressed and generally |treated the same way the cell's own chromosome is. For those of you who |weren't forced to study bacterial genetics ( :) ), bacteria have a loop of |DNA for their chromosome, instead of long strands that glom up into |several chromosomes during cell division, like we have. So plasmids can |be thought of as "mini-chromosomes", since they provide a template for |protein production, just like the "normal" chromosome. They are much |smaller than the main chromosome though. | I can see now that I misunderstood the description of a plasmid, or that --MORE--(77%) I jumped the gun in thinking it was like a mitochondria or a chloroplast. Not a sub-micro-organism but a loop of DNA. Thanks. --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 327 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 329 (61 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm) Subject: yeast and starch, storage of cultures Message-ID: <1992Aug29.112433.20739@jyu.fi> Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 11:24:33 GMT Lines: 27 (bread) Yeast can ferment starch, if conditions are right. For example, some moonshiners make their stuff from (boiled) potatoes, witch are practically 100 % starch. The recipe goes something like that: take 10 kg of old potatoes, boil em and peel. Mush with water and add juice of two lemons. Dilute to 30 l and add yeast. It will take forever to ferment (2-3 months) and taste awfull. Distillation will produce a vodka like drink, not surprisingly because most vodkas are made from potatoes. In some parts of Finland, it was customary to bake bread only two times a year. Bread was dried and eat as a lunch box. The culture was just left to dry on the wooden dough tub. Before making the bread, water was added several days ahead and flour added gradually. The bread was of course 100% rye. --MORE--(79%) This speaks for lactobasilli surviving drying for about half a year and freecing too. In those days, as little of things as could be kept on the warm part of house were kept there and non-used dough tub was often stored in the cold part. seismo -- ------- sm@tukki.jyu.fi (seismo malm) End of article 329 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 330 (60 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: villi, lactobacilli & dormancy Message-ID: <1992Aug29.164706.25462@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 16:47:06 GMT Lines: 31 In article <1992Aug28.112358.14627@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: > > >One thing that I learned from this villi thing was that lactobacilli >do indeed survive drying and freezing and long term storage. >This should have some strong implications for the debate that >has long been going on about wether lactobacilli could survive >the drying process many of us have been using with our sourdough >cultures. > > [reasoning deleted for space] > --MORE--(57%) I agree 100%! In the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Quite obvious my dear Watson!" Didn't one of those brilliant microbioligist types on the net explain one time about how yeast sporulate and bacteria like lactobacilli form some type of shell or casing when living conditions get worse? Hey you out there! Could we get a re-run on what bacteria do when the environment worsens? Like when it gets too cold or too dry? Oh yeah, I'll be restarting my design-of-experiments (DOE) samples, all 8 of them, this week and will be posting my subjective findings on what appears to be the best way to dry starter. Larry Z. is still working on the offical microorgnanism counts in the sample I sent him (duplicate of my 8 samples). Brian D. End of article 330 (of 336)--what next? [npq] From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: <1992Aug29.163852.24688@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Date: 29 Aug 92 16:38:52 GMT References: <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.c b.att.com> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Distribution: na Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 37 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> ccbjr@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (charles.c.bahr..jr) writes: >In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: >>Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >>line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >>breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one >>malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. >>The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would --MORE--(52%) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and >>add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are >>produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and >>lactobacilli. >> >>Sorry if I confused anyone. >> >Well, now I'm really confused. Why is it that bread can be made without >added sugars? Is there any way yeasts can eat starch, albeit slowly? >Thanks for any info. > 1) Bread is made from ground up grain...with water added, so the amylase in the flour results in a partial digestion of the starch, resulting in sugar. 2) The yeast in the starter (which has been added to the bread) digests the sugars from the grain-provided amylase, thereby producing more amylase from the yeast. 3) The yeast-provided amylase results in more sugars from the starch getting digested by the yeast-provided amylase. 4) The yeast digests the new sugars making more yeast-provided amylase. 5) Go to step 3... --MORE--(95%) BD PS: Note that in the above cycle, no sugar or sweeteners were added, just starter, flour, and water. End of article 331 (of 336)--what next? [npq] >|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are >|produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and >|lactobacilli. >| >|Sorry if I confused anyone. >| >| >|-- >|---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more ca333 Article 333 (57 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: <1992Aug29.165223.25858@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Date: 29 Aug 92 16:52:23 GMT References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 54 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charl es Delwiche) writes: >|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >|breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one >|malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. >|The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, >|but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would >|normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and >|add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are --MORE--(38%) >|produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and >|lactobacilli. >| >|Sorry if I confused anyone. >| >| >|-- >|---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >|Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... >|Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true >| |and sufficient." I. Newton > > > >Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, >which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >amylase until the process of germination begins. (I think I picked up this >idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.) When the seed begins to germinate >amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from >storage. Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form. >Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase. >Anyway I would like more information on the subject. (Not that you don't >have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.) --MORE--(70%) > >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > I guess the question I would have is whether or not amylase is released chemically from the components of the grain when it gets wet, or if the grain needs to be in its original, unadulterated seed-form for the amylase to be released, i.e. for germination. For example, if whole grain dried wheat berries release amylase to 'unlock' the thing so it'll germinate, is it a chemical reaction with water in a part of the berry? Maybe if the thing is ground up, then mixed with water, the amylase is released anyway even though the berry is not whole anymore. This would then imply that since we do not live in a 0% relative humidity environment that flour would always have some, albeit small, amount of released amylase in it. More would be released when it gets wet, thereby providing the sugars that yeast need to feed on. BD End of article 333 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 2 334 Article 334 (56 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: <1992Aug29.170447.26694@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:04:47 GMT Lines: 67 In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: >In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >>In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Char les Delwiche) writes: >>|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >>|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >>|breaks it down into sugars. > >>|Sorry if I confused anyone. > --MORE--(26%) >To this David Adams wrote: >> >>Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, >>which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >>amylase until the process of germination begins. > >I probably should have just stuck with my original argument, but now >that I have gotten everyone, including myself confused, I went and >looked it up. The enzyme in question, alpha-amylase, is apparently >indeed not produced by _Saccharomyces_, either by _S. exiguus_ or _S. >cerevisiae_. David Adams is right; the amylases in grains are not >generally released until germination has begun. At least this is what >one is always taught. One makes malt by taking barley, moistening it, > > [stuff deleted] > >None the less, in the San Francisco sourdough process, amylase becomes >active without germination of the grain (Saunders, Ng, and Kline, >_Cereal Chem._ 49:86. 1972). They incubated an *acidified* >flour/water mixture (pH 5.0) and found a marked increase in maltose >content. I wonder if the acidification is essential? It helps, >because it inhibits the microorganisms already present in the flour, >but it *might* also help activate the enzyme (I just don't know). If --MORE--(56%) >you tried to do this without acidifying the mixture you would end up >with a big fungal mycelium, or with a nice sourdough starter, depending >upon how lucky you were. I think that the total amount of maltose >released is small compared to what you get in malted barley, where >almost the entire endosperm (what we eat) is converted to sugar. > >So you can make sourdough without adding sugar because sugar is >produced during the development of the starter. The lactobacilli >don't use up all of the maltose produced, so there is enough to add >flavor to the bread, and also help the crust brown nicely. There are >also enough sugars other than maltose produced that _S. exiguus_ can >grow. > >I don't know to what extent this applies to other kinds of sourdough. >I'll be looking into that when I have some time. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... >Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true > |and sufficient." I. Newton Well, now I'm confused again...Is there or isn't there an active sugar- producing enzyme in flour? Can yeast utilize starch at all, or can --MORE--(88%) yeast only utilize sugars? You may explain how sourdough works, because it's acidic, but commercial yeast isn't (is it?) and it feeds on flour just fine. If yeast can only utilize sugar and there *is* an active sugar-producing enzyme in flour, then where did the enzyme come from if not from germination? Or are there other sugars in flour that exist in the wheat berry *before* germination, thereby allowing the yeast feeding cycle to begin? Brian D. dixon@spot.colorado.edu End of article 334 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 335 Article 335 (55 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dixon@spot.Colorado.EDU (Life is real?) Subject: Re: Starter Overflow Message-ID: <1992Aug29.171240.27561@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> Sender: news@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1992Aug28.191910.3807@ecst.csuchico.edu> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:12:40 GMT Lines: 28 In article <1992Aug28.191910.3807@ecst.csuchico.edu> mgum@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU wri tes: >Sourdough Friends; > I have been feeding my starter potato water, flour and sugar. The other day >it was real active and overflowed my container. I put the starter in >the fridge in hopes to slow down the reaction. I finally got a chance to >make some bread the other day. I took the starter and let it warm to room >temp before proceding. The bread tastes pretty good. My starter is now >bubbling away again and tastes *SOUR* . My question is: > Is the starter still good?? After spending a week in the refrigerator?? > What is the proper way to slow down the bubbling, raising that occurs in >the starter (other than get a larger container)?? --MORE--(55%) > To prevent the overflow, you can do one of three things: 1) Larger container (huk yuk yuk!), 2) keep an eye on it and give the bowl a good THUMP on the counter to release the gases, 3) mix your starter a little thinner for proofing so the gases can pass through it easier. I think a combination of making the starter the right consistency (thick pancake batter/thin mud) and using a large enough bowl is the best answer. Something else that works, i.e if you don't have a large enough bowl, is to use plastic wrap that really grips your bowl well so the sides won't leak, then poke a couple of holes with a fork near the center of the plastic on top of the bowl (further distance from the edge) then place the bowl on a paper plate during proofing. The holes in the center mean that oozing starter has to go further before spilling off the side, and since it generally will cling and run down the side of the bowl, the paper plate will catch the overflow. BD End of article 335 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 311 Article 311 (52 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: sak@geosc.psu.edu (Sridhar Anandakrishnan) Subject: Flemish Desem bread from Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 15:30:11 GMT Sender: news@ems.psu.edu Distribution: rec.food.sourdough Organization: Geosciences Dept., Penn State Univ., University Park, PA, USA Lines: 22 Has anybody tried the "Flemish Desem Bread" in Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book? It sounds like a type of sourdough. At least there is no yeast involved, and a starter made from flour and water alone. The curioous thing about the desem (as I understand the description, not having done it yet) is that the starter is _buried_ in your crock of flour, and every day you take out this little ball of starter, cut off a crust that forms around it, add some water and flour, knead, and rebury it in the flour. After 2weeks it is ready, and you use part of this starter to make the desem. It doesn't sound as if the starter has any exposure to the air to allow any lactobacilli to land in it?? --MORE--(74%) Anybody tried it? Anybody had desem bread? It sounds neat, and I will probably try it soon, but if anybody has any input... Incidentally, Laurel's Kitchen is a good book of whole-wheat recipes, including a few Indian ones -- dosa, chapati, and idli. There is a sourdough recipe or two in there (other than desem) but they use yeast to begin the starter (boo,hiss :-) ). Sridhar. End of article 311 (of 336)--what next? [npq] From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm) Subject: Re: viili Message-ID: <1992Aug28.133108.10755@jyu.fi> Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland References: <1992Aug27.101417.15231@cs.joensuu.fi> <1992Aug27.145157.25259@hemlo ck.cray.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:31:08 GMT Lines: 39 In article <1992Aug27.145157.25259@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article 15231@cs.joensuu.fi, jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi (Jussi Salonen) writes: >| >|In Finland I think viili is one alternative to yogurt. You can make >|more viili from viili and milk as David C. Adams did, but you shouldn't >|use it as a saladsauce. >| >|I used to eat viili with sugar and fresh berries. For foodmaking we have >|an other kind of viili. It is called kermaviili (cream viili). >| >|rgds Jussi >| >|Dept. of computer science >|University of Joensuu, Finland --MORE--(61%) >| >|jsalonen@cs.joensuu.fi >| > >Do you make kermaviili by feeding the viili culture fresh cream? > >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > Fresh cream has got a bit too much milk fat to my taste, but mixing milk and fresh cream works fine. I think that commercial kermaviili one has fat content of about 10%. If you are planning to use it for cooking something like 10%-20% sould be ok. seismo -- ------- --MORE--(97%) sm@tukki.jyu.fi (seismo malm) End of article 312 (of 336)--what next? [npq] End of article 313 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 313 Article 313 (50 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: sm@jyu.fi (Seismo Malm) Subject: Re: viili update Message-ID: <1992Aug28.134929.11284@jyu.fi> Followup-To: rec.food.sourdough Sender: sm@jyu.fi Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland References: <1992Aug26.144049.2560@hemlock.cray.com> <1992Aug27.151255.26320@hem lock.cray.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:49:29 GMT Lines: 67 In article <1992Aug27.151255.26320@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >I wrote: > >| >|This time it came out like a thick and slimy yogurt. I suppose >|this is more like what the viili was supposed to be like. I >|haven't tasted it yet. >| > >This morning I had a chance to tase the viili. This was an >experience. I can hardly describe it. --MORE--(35%) > >It supprised me that it has a very mild taste, almost tasteless. >(How do you describe a new taste? How do you describe the taste >of tofu?) > >I discovered there was a whole new dimension to "slimy". Fun part of article removed. >This batch was raised on powdered milk. (No fat) Siesmo >indicated that the villi wasn't so slimy like when >whole milk was used so I will have to try that. > > >For you fellow Estado Unodenses (US citizens) I will >have viili culture available just like the sourdough >cultures. Send SASE and a SMALL ziplock bag to > >David Adams >1625 Dixon Dr. >St. Paul Park, MN 55071. > >Please email me first. --MORE--(63%) > >--- >--David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com >___________________________________________________________________ > member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. > David got it just right. That is how no fat viili should be. Adding more milk powder will make it more firmer and viili from whole milk is considerrably firmer. The starter I send to David was from Valio viili (Valio is a co-operative dairy, the biggest producer of milk products in Finland.) There is a other co-op that produces viili too. their product is a bit firmer, but not so tasty IMHO. Taste of viili can't be described, it is very mild and smooth, but it still has a taste of its own. Especially kids, who don't like other soured foods generally, like viili. seismo --MORE--(97%) -- ------- sm@tukki.jyu.fi (seismo malm) End of article 313 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 316 Article 316 (48 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:30:31 GMT References: Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 37 In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charle s Delwiche) writes: |Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the |line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and |breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one |malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. |The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, |but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would |normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and |add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are |produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and |lactobacilli. | --MORE--(49%) |Sorry if I confused anyone. | | |-- |---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... |Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true | |and sufficient." I. Newton Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release amylase until the process of germination begins. (I think I picked up this idea from Laurel's Kitchen Bread book.) When the seed begins to germinate amalyse is released inorder to allow the seed to retrieve energy from storage. Until this time that energy is locked away in an unusable form. Hence raw milled, ground or cracked grain would not have any released amylase. Anyway I would like more information on the subject. (Not that you don't have enough to do, but that is one point of confussion.) --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com --MORE--(95%) ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 316 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 317 Article 317 (47 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: <1992Aug28.113350.15339@hemlock.cray.com> Date: 28 Aug 92 16:33:49 GMT References: <1992Aug28.125157.24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> Reply-To: dadams@cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Lines: 31 In article 24979@cbnewsm.cb.att.com, ccbjr@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (charles.c.bahr..j r) writes: |In article delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.ed u (Charles Delwiche) writes: |>Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the |>line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and |>breaks it down into sugars. I know better than that. The reason one |>malts barley before one makes beer is that yeast can't utilize starch. |>The sugars in sourdough starter come from starch digested by amylase, |>but apparently the amylase is from the grains. This amylase would |>normally help the seed germinate, but if you grind up the grain and |>add water you have partial digestion of the starch, and sugars are |>produced that can be utilized by microorganisms like yeast and --MORE--(68%) |>lactobacilli. |> |>Sorry if I confused anyone. |> |Well, now I'm really confused. Why is it that bread can be made without |added sugars? Is there any way yeasts can eat starch, albeit slowly? |Thanks for any info. | |-charlie bahr |..disclaimer "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" indicates that Baker's yeast, at least, does produce amylase. Can we check this out anyway? BTW, how is barley malted? --- --David C. Adams Statistician Cray Research Inc. dadams@cray.com ___________________________________________________________________ member--Minnesotans for Global Warming. End of article 317 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 319 Article 319 (45 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu (Christina Callihan) Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 17:11:45 GMT References: <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> Sender: root@ucsbcsl.ucsb.edu Lines: 72 In <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com (David Adams) write s: >Charles> == Charles Delwiche >| == Christina Callihan >Charles> This article is also of interest because it studied the >Charles> plasmid content of bacteria in sourdough starter (if you know what >Charles> that means, you might want to look at the paper). >| >|Plasmids are little loops of DNA (genetic material) that are separate from >|the main bacterial chromosome. They are interesting because bacteria can >|trade genetic information in a process called conjugation. So you can >|trace plasmids through different strains to see which ones have the same --MORE--(25%) >|loops. Bacteria can acquire different traits (i.e. resistance to certain >|antibiotics) by receiving the right plasmids. >So if I understand this, (let's see if I do) plasmids kind of relate >to bacteria the way that mitochondria do to animal cells, or chloroplasts >do to plant cells? >Is the idea you mention that conjugation leaves the DNA in the plasmid >unafected, hence allowing researchers to to trace the source of different >strains of bacteria? >What function do the plasmids serve? How do they benefit the bacteria. >(Ie. It seems that chloroplasts and mitochondria have mirror roles. >Chloroplasts are responsible for photosynthesis--the process that changes >light energy into sugar. Mitochondria are responsible for changing sugar >(or other fuel?) and converting it into ATP. Did I get that right? >Does the plasmid have some mirror role?) A plasmid, once it's in a bacterium, is duplicated, expressed and generally treated the same way the cell's own chromosome is. For those of you who weren't forced to study bacterial genetics ( :) ), bacteria have a loop of DNA for their chromosome, instead of long strands that glom up into several chromosomes during cell division, like we have. So plasmids can --MORE--(55%) be thought of as "mini-chromosomes", since they provide a template for protein production, just like the "normal" chromosome. They are much smaller than the main chromosome though. (By the way, if Charles or anyone else catches mistakes in what I'm passing along here, please correct me. It has been a while since my Modern Genetics courses. :) In conjugation, a tube forms between a bacterium that has a particular plasmid, and one that doesn't. The plasmid is duplicated and fed through the tube to the other cell. I've forgotten whether or not this process ever happens with the main chromosome. As for what "purpose", plasmids serve, it all depends on what kind of proteins it codes for. Scientists can even put together their own plasmids, introduce them into a bacterial culture, and then use them as markers for tracing mutations and mapping the chromosome. I think I'm getting to the limits of what I can explain without resorting to my textbook. :) Geneticists are doing so much with plasmid research these days, there are probably tons of applications that I never studied. --MORE--(81%) ____________________________________________________________________________ If You Know What | Christina M. Callihan | Doing STRANGE THINGS You're Doing, | AKA C-chan, Bwee, Chrystal- | in the name of Art, It's Not | Elf & Who Knows What Else | and STRANGER THINGS Research! | (I sure don't) | in the name of => => => => => | uc-chan@mcl.ucsb.edu | CHOCOLATE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- When life gets weird, the weird get a life. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (The opinions in this post are not endorsed by the University of California at Santa Barbara....THANK GOODNESS!!!!!!!!! ;^} ) End of article 319 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 322 Article 322 (42 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT)) Subject: Hybrid Cultures Message-ID: <1992Aug28.175945.10435@acd4.acd.com> Summary: anyone used one? Keywords: hybrid,culture,starter Sender: news@acd4.acd.com (USENET News System) Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:59:45 GMT Lines: 35 Please bear with me a little. Someone sent me email requesting my experience with hybrid cultures. He had requested that I post it if I didn't have an answer as he was having difficulty doing so himself. Unfortunately, I promptly lost the message and cannot remember his address. Sorry about that! Anyway, he had run across a catalog for whole and milled grains that also offered a culture that was supposed to be a hybrid of a 250 year old east coast culture, one that had ridden by plane to an earlier World's Fair, and one other culture - possibly a Yukon type. --MORE--(47%) Being a novice with any cultures, let alone a hybrid, I had no real answers. Have any of you had actual experience with such a culture? From what has been posted about the organisms and their life-cycles, I would guess that the resulting culture would be about as predictable as one started by direct exposure to the environment. I would think that cross-breeding between the strains would not be likely unless the culture had its temperature cycled repeatedly before the ecology stabilized with the new dominant strains. Wouldn't it be more likely that the faster growing yeasts and lactobacilli would end up dominating? This brings up another interesting question that I have posted before. I am trying to keep multiple active cultures in the same kitchen and refrigerator and am really concerned about cross-contamination. How easy is it for yeasts and lacto-bacilli to invade other cultures if basic kitchen procedures are followed? By this, I mean that I thoroughly wash and scald all containers and implements before using them with a particular culture. If anyone has other methods they use, please post! -- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com) End of article 322 (of 336)--what next? [npq] 323 Article 323 (41 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Subject: Re: sourdough ecology clarification Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 19:59:58 GMT References: <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.c ray.com> Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 67 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu In article <1992Aug28.113031.15118@hemlock.cray.com> dadams@cray.com writes: >In article u4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu, delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charl es Delwiche) writes: >|Just a quick corection: I stated, or implied, somewhere along the >|line that yeast produce amylase, the enzyme that digests starch and >|breaks it down into sugars. >|Sorry if I confused anyone. To this David Adams wrote: > --MORE--(27%) >Well this gives me an added point of confussion, since by my understanding, >which may well be wrong as I am a layman here, the grains do not release >amylase until the process of germination begins. I probably should have just stuck with my original argument, but now that I have gotten everyone, including myself confused, I went and looked it up. The enzyme in question, alpha-amylase, is apparently indeed not produced by _Saccharomyces_, either by _S. exiguus_ or _S. cerevisiae_. David Adams is right; the amylases in grains are not generally released until germination has begun. At least this is what one is always taught. One makes malt by taking barley, moistening it, letting it go about three days into the germination process (until the root it just beginning to emerge), then killing the sucker by roasting it in an oven. Grind the malt up with a rolling pin or a food processor and you are ready to make beer (don't forget to do the sparging and all that, and you might want to plant your hop plants a bit before you start germinating the barley). None the less, in the San Francisco sourdough process, amylase becomes active without germination of the grain (Saunders, Ng, and Kline, _Cereal Chem._ 49:86. 1972). They incubated an *acidified* flour/water mixture (pH 5.0) and found a marked increase in maltose content. I wonder if the acidification is essential? It helps, --MORE--(65%) because it inhibits the microorganisms already present in the flour, but it *might* also help activate the enzyme (I just don't know). If you tried to do this without acidifying the mixture you would end up with a big fungal mycelium, or with a nice sourdough starter, depending upon how lucky you were. I think that the total amount of maltose released is small compared to what you get in malted barley, where almost the entire endosperm (what we eat) is converted to sugar. So you can make sourdough without adding sugar because sugar is produced during the development of the starter. The lactobacilli don't use up all of the maltose produced, so there is enough to add flavor to the bread, and also help the crust brown nicely. There are also enough sugars other than maltose produced that _S. exiguus_ can grow. I don't know to what extent this applies to other kinds of sourdough. I'll be looking into that when I have some time. --MORE--(91%) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 323 (of 336)--what next? [npq] Article 324 (40 more) in rec.food.sourdough: From: delwiche@sunflower.bio.indiana.edu (Charles Delwiche) Subject: Re: more on the biology of sourdough Message-ID: Date: 28 Aug 92 20:09:54 GMT References: <1992Aug27.143822.24606@hemlock.cray.com> Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Biology, Indiana University - Bloomington Lines: 23 Nntp-Posting-Host: sunflower.bio.indiana.edu Thank you Christina for your explanation of plasmids. Sounded right to me. I can't remember if the main bacterial chromosome participates in conjugation or not. I certainly associate conjugation with the exchange of *plasmids*, not the main chromosome. I originally had a mini essay on plasmids in one of my postings, but it was getting too long and involved, so I just axed it. Plasmids in sourdough bacteria do _not_ seem to contain genes to allow fermentation of particular sugars. Which sugars the bacterium is able to utilize seems to be encoded on its main chromosome. Plasmids _do_ --MORE--(65%) seem to encode for the toxins many sourdough bacteria produce, and presumably for resistance to these toxins as well. If you put a plasmid free strain of the "right" bacterium into a sourdough starter it gets eliminated by strains that do have plasmids. I don't know what else (of importance to sourdough) might be encoded on plasmids. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles F. Delwiche, Dept. of Biology |"We admit no more causes... Indiana University, Bloomington, IN 47405 |than such as are both true |and sufficient." I. Newton End of article 324 (of 336)--what next? [npq]