Subject: Re: Bo Gritz, Khun Sa, and Identity Christians

From: [email-masked] (Steve Crocker)
Date: 17 Jan 1993 05:23:22 GMT

I see no reason to question the facts in Richard Hatch's informative
article, which appears to show beyond any reasonable doubt that Bo
Gritz collaborates with groups which have explicit racism as part of
their agenda. I think I would attribute a different significance to
those facts and associations than do those who see them as proof of
Col. Gritz's "racism" and "fascism". Politics is the art of coalition
building. I know of nobody who has accomplished anything substantial on
the stage of history without at the same time entering working alliances 
with those who might hold beliefs repugnant to one's own ideals. Now
any "progressives" who have never entered coalition with the likes of
Stalinists or Maoists may wish to dispute this, but I suspect your 
numbers are few. Gritz is trying to accomplish what I believe to be
the morally worthwhile goal of exposing some particularly heinous
crimes of government officials. Just like any of us who work on our own
cars, Col. Gritz has used the tools available, and inevitably ended up
with greasy hands. I do not believe Gritz to be personally a white
racist, an anti-semite, or a fascist, although he clearly associates
with some such. I applaud him for being willing to ACT to expose the
likes of Shackley and Armitage, while progressives, with the courageous
exception of the Christic Institute, have sat on their hands to keep 
them clean. I ask any thinking person who is the greater threat to 
U.S. freedom and COnstitutional Government? Gritz and his allies or
Shackley and his (recall that the latter group would include George
Bush, et. al.) Let's have a little more prespevtive and a little 
less liberal hypocrisy!

-Steve

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From: [email-masked] (John W. Redelfs)
Date: 17 Jan 1993 08:00:53 GMT

>Bush, et. al.) Let's have a little more prespevtive and a little 
It is my opinion that Mr. Crocker presents a virtually airtight argument
here against condemning Bo Gritz for his so-called "guilt by
association."  I believe it is the task now for his enemies to document
by his words and deeds that Bo Gritz is, himself, either anti-Jewish,
white racist or both.  If such could be demonstrated, most of Bo Gritz's
followers would turn from him in disgust.

Excellent work, Mr. Crocker.  Keep up the good work.  If you fail to
convert any of the black-hats, at least you lend strength to the good
guys.
-- 

--------- All my opinions are tentative pending further data. ---------
------------ John W. Redelfs, [email-masked] -------------

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From: [email-masked]
Date: 17 Jan 93 10:47:11 CST

>>I see no reason to question the facts in Richard Hatch's informative

etc., etc., etc.

> convert any of the black-hats, at least you lend strength to the good

Ditto. So far the only case against Bo Gritz seems to be the "guilt by
association tarbrush" which can be applied to virtually any politician.
If such were applicable, then half of the Israeli electorate could be
considered racist for having supported the Likud party's Itzhak Shamir,
known for hateful rhetoric against Arabs. I don't think such logic works.

Negative attitudes towards the federal reserve, promotion of hard
currency ideas, and sympathy with various types of tax protests don't
make a racist either.  Obviously the country has serious problems and
much of the blame by definition must lie with the federal reserve and
its policies.  Hard currency might be worth some re-examination since
our economy has been in an inflationary "float" without it for many years
now as our older citizens are systematically robbed of their savings
and our young people are discouraged to save.  Further, a justified
tax protest movement started the ball rolling for our republic in the
first place.

The undercurrent I see in the attack on those such as Gritz is the
desire to further the agenda of the internationalists.  The new world
[where's the order] bunch finds patriots such Gritz in the way. The
same group of antagonists seems to find Ross Perot's grass roots support
just as disturbing...perhaps more so since the increased sophistication
brings a wider appeal at the polls.  

I further notice that some of Gritz's antagonists, such as Chip Berlet,
frequently flood this newsgroup with material derisive about some
individual or cause.  But I cannot recall postings from the same
that were actively expousing some cause. Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe it
is there and just needs clarification.  But I would like to know what
those in the Chip Berlet camp stand "FOR".  We know a lot about what
they are "AGAINST".  Maybe they offer some solutions other than just
the tearing down of solutions offered by others. What is their solution
for a troubled economy?  What is their solution to violence in our
distraught inner cities.  What do they think about NAFTA?  Without
hearing such a program, it is hard not to conclude that the attack
on others with fresh ideas is nothing more than a defense of the status
quo, a status quo that obviously is not working.  

-Joe Gaut

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From: [email-masked] (Ted Frank)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 17:03:45 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (John W. Redelfs) writes:
>white racist or both.  

Deeds: lending credibility to anti-Semites.
       choosing to run on the same ticket as David Duke.

Words: maliciously lying about a conspiracy of "Jewish bankers."
       offering his whole-hearted support to the white supremacist Identity
         Christians.

>If such could be demonstrated, most of Bo Gritz's

What is it that requires demonstration?  By the standard you are setting
for Bo Gritz, no one could prove that David Duke is racist.  Or even
Hitler for that matter.

What would it take for you to change your mind?  This is the third time
I've asked this question.  Do you believe that there are no racists in
the US?  Few have demonstrated their racism and anti-Semitism as clearly
as Bo Gritz.

For the third time, what evidence would you require to prove that Bo
Gritz is anti-Semitic?  Someone else claimed it was running on the same
ticket as David Duke (which was fervently denied by the Gritzies until
someone came up with a photograph in Gritz's anti-Semitic magazine showing
him shaking hands with Duke).  What do you require, besides telling
anti-Semitic tales, consorting with and supporting racists and anti-Semites,
running on the same ticket as David Duke, and belonging to white supremacist
organizations?
-- 
ted frank                     | [email-masked] 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation

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From: [email-masked] (Ted Frank)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 21:39:21 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Seth "Gimpy" Bradley) writes:
>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>Please tell us why Gritz refers to the "Rockefeller/Rothschild" Federal Reserve
>System as being controlled by "seven Jewish families."  This is not simply
>an instance of "Negative attitudes towards the federal reserve" but _is_ an
>instance of making a special issue about religion.  

Especially when the allegation is false.

Especially when it's the same lie about "Jewish bankers" controlling
the world that's been used for centuries to stir up hatred against Jews.

>This has been brought
>up time and again in this group, with silence in response from the Gritz
>supporters.  Until this issue is addressed, defending Gritz as being non-
>anti-semitic will receive little credibility, IMO.

Agreed.

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From: [email-masked] (Seth "Gimpy" Bradley)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1993 21:08:17 GMT

Please tell us why Gritz refers to the "Rockefeller/Rothschild" Federal Reserve
System as being controlled by "seven Jewish families."  This is not simply
an instance of "Negative attitudes towards the federal reserve" but _is_ an
instance of making a special issue about religion.  This has been brought
up time and again in this group, with silence in response from the Gritz
supporters.  Until this issue is addressed, defending Gritz as being non-
anti-semitic will receive little credibility, IMO.
-- 
Seth J. Bradley, Senior System Administrator, Intel SCIC
Internet: [email-masked]   UUCP: uunet!scic.intel.com!sbradley
----------------------------------------
"A system admin's life is a sorry one.  The only advantage he has over
Emergency Room doctors is that malpractice suits are rare.  On the other
hand, ER doctors never have to deal with patients installing new versions
of their own innards!"  -Michael O'Brien