Subject: EIR Talks to Lyndon LaRouche 04/21/93

From: [email-masked] (John Covici)
Date: 24 Apr 93 19:47:3 GMT

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      EIR TALKS WITH LYNDON LaROUCHE 

   Interviewer: Mel Klenetsky 
   April 21, 1993 

   ``{EIR} Talks With Lyndon LaRouche'' 
   April 21, 1993 
   Interviewer: Mel Klenetsky 

   MEL KLENETSKY: Welcome to {EIR'}s ``Talks With Lyndon
LaRouche.'' We are on the line with Mr. LaRouche from
Rochester, Minnesota. 

     The Imprisonment of Rev. Bevel and Tony Chaitkin: 
                ``The Confederacy is the Issue'' 

   Before we begin to discuss the recent unfortunate
incident in Waco, Texas, I would like to bring up the Pike
Statue. Recently, Rev. James Luther Bevel, who was your
running mate for vice president in the last presidential
elections, was imprisoned for protesting against the statue.
What is the significance of the Pike Statue, and what is the
significance of the recent arrest of James Luther Bevel in
this connection? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: The Confederacy is the issue. People will
think the Confederacy was defeated by the hammer of that
great military genius General Sherman pounding the
Confederate military forces against the anvil of his
commander, General Grant; but in point of fact, the
Confederacy was {not} an insurgency by rebellious majorities
of states, but was a conspiracy directed from London--as a
matter of fact directed in that period by Lord Palmerston,
the same fellow who authored the China Opium Wars, and the
same fellow who authored the invasion of Mexico during the
same period, by British, French, and Spanish forces. 
   This conspiracy was orchestrated over a period of
decades, to split the United States into several parts so
that the United States might be subjugated by Britain. That
was the purpose. 
   The people who did it, were from all over the United
States. They were not Southerners, particularly. For example,
Pike himself came from the Boston, Massachusetts area. This
was a group of people {using} an apparatus which they built
up around the slavery institutions in a number of states of
the United States, to capture the control of the states, and
to effect a secession whose purpose was to destroy the United
States. 
   After, unfortunately, the assassination of Lincoln {by
these people}--including the circles with which Pike was
associated--the United States was gradually subverted and
taken over {by the defeated forces behind the Confederacy,}
strangely enough. Exemplary of that, is the case of Pike, who
was one of the chief plotters against the United States,
under people like August Belmont of New York, who was one of
the chief traitors to the United States in that operation. 
   Pike was not only a Confederate general, but was head of
the Southern Jurisdiction of Scottish Rite Freemasonry from
about 1859, a couple of years before the secession, until his
death. Not only was he the head of the Confederate Masonry,
but he was allied with international forces such as the
Giuseppe Mazzini of radicalism, the Mazzini who created Karl
Marx, for example, in Europe. 
   The significance today, is that those who have taken
over the United States as an influential force, have
corrupted us; they gave us, for example, a
{Confederate-minded} Woodrow Wilson backed by a
{Confederate-minded} Teddy Roosevelt; they gave us the
Federal Reserve System, and brought us into World War I, for
example, among many things. Also, Woodrow Wilson, by the way,
was a co-sponsor of the second founding of the Ku Klux Klan
in 1915, {together with} the Anti-Defamation League, which
had just been created as a branch of the B'nai B'rith a
couple of years before then. They created the Ku Klux Klan. 
   That {Confederate-minded crowd} centered in the Wall
Street financial markets, has taken over and subverted the
United States, that is, destroyed constitutional
arrangements, constitutional institutions, and has brought us
to the kind of mess we are in today. Therefore, we must
recognize such obscenities as the fact that, in Washington,
we have the statue of a traitor, General Pike, a witting
traitor, an accomplice of the British in a war which was
intended to destroy our nation, and perpetuate the
enslavement of at least part of our people, a Pike who was
the bloody, racist, (and also satanic by his own
words)--treasonous founder of the original Ku Klux Klan and
in spirit, the spiritual author of the second founding of the
Klan in 1915. 
   We have this man's statue sitting in Washington, and you
say, ``Remove it. Remove the rubbish,'' and you have people
in the Congress and elsewhere who say, ``No, no. Pike is a
hero''; {every defender of Pike is implicitly in the spirit
of treason}--that is, they represent the same issues, the
same policies as those who organized the Confederacy back in
the 1850s for secession in 1861. 

      Why the Confederate Mentality is a Fascist Mentality 

   Q: Many in the South--and I'm calling you here from
Virginia--feel that the Confederacy was some sort of a
romantic notion of honor and chivalry, and a day when the
true values of ``culture'' were kept high on the banner, and
that you had Carpetbaggers coming in, who were out to destroy
those values. 
   How do we begin to get these people to understand what
really was at stake, in terms of the Civil War? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: I think some of them will {never} get to
understand that. 
   They are fascists, in a sense, a fascist mentality, in
the Mussolini and Hitler sense. That is, Mussolini based his
fascism on a romantic appeal of exactly that type, that is, a
mythological history of Italy, and of Europe. Hitler based
his Nazi Party on a similar--different but
{similar}--mythological history of Europe. That was the root
of Hitler's determination to exterminate Christianity as he
tried to exterminate Judaism, or at least ship this out of
Europe. 
   You have the same mentality, which I can recognize very
clearly in these kinds of poor fellows you are referring to.
It is a myth. 
   In point of fact, many of the Confederate slave-owning
planters were culturally little higher than the pigs that
roamed in and out of their kitchens. The Confederacy was a
degeneration of the American people. It took from the Civil
War period until the 1940s, before the Southern states of the
United States which had been in the hard-core of the
Confederacy, began to rise above the level of illiteracy,
ignorance, degeneracy, and so forth, which had been the
characteristic of the slavery-dominated regions of the United
States. 
   Also to recognize, for those who are not completely
hard-core fascists (as most admirers of the Confederacy are
in fact, whether they know it or not), is Hollywood. Remember
the first feature film, which is produced by the Ku Klux
Klan's supporters in 1915, the feature film ``The Birth of a
Nation,'' originally called ``The Clansman,'' was sponsored
by a Confederate-minded President, Woodrow Wilson; was
produced to the enrichment of Louis B. Mayer and Sam Goldwyn,
who formed Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer; and Paramount, Warner, and so
forth and all these leading Hollywood companies, were all
part of this link between the old Confederacy, the Ku Klux
Klan, and organized crime. 
   Films such as ``The Clansman,'' or ``The Birth of a
Nation,'' and such echoes of that as that completely
disgusting ``Gone With the Wind,'' have {brainwashed,}
through Hollywood alone, the American public into a myth of a
``gentle, aristocratic'' South. This is completely
fraudulent. There is no basis in fact. This was a disgusting
corner of the United States. 
   As for the Carpetbaggers, they were sent by the same
circles of August Belmont in New York, the American
British-controlled traitor (by his own words)--who had
{backed} the Confederacy and slavery in the first place--sent
the same Carpetbaggers to loot the former Confederate region. 
   The reason the carpetbagging occurred, is because
Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson, who was {friendly} to
the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite and became a
member of it, actually allowed this carpetbagging to occur,
and put an end to the economic reconstruction which Lincoln
had ordered, and, had not the Southern Jurisdiction of the
Scottish Rite, together with British intelligence,
assassinated Lincoln, true reconstruction and economic
development would have occurred in the Southern region;
instead, we had carpetbagging sent by the same people who had
organized the Confederacy. 

   Q: Basically, Lincoln's idea was to rebuild the South
and bring in a different kind of outlook and worldview? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: It was very clear. Lincoln made speeches,
he made preparations for all of these actions. It is a matter
of record. If somebody looks at the record of Lincoln's
public speeches up till the time he was shot, and looks at
what Johnson did in the opposite direction after Lincoln was
shot, one sees {exactly} how this occurred. 
   
   Q: Is there any way to understand current history, the
history of the twentieth century, without understanding the
British adversarial role toward the United States in the
nineteenth century? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Absolutely not at all. 
   The quarrel between Britain and the United States,
especially from 1763, 1766, when the British Crown and people
around the British East India Company and Barings Bank, moved
to crush the colonies; from that time on, through Lincoln,
and beyond, the entire history of the United States, is a
history of, first, American {resistance} to British looting,
and secondly, the British effort, with the aid of traitors
within the United States, through, largely,
Freemasonry--their Freemasonry--to subvert and destroy the
United States. 
   [commercial break] 

            The Bloody Holocaust in Waco, Texas:
         ``The Clinton Administration Was Set Up''

   Q: This is ``{EIR} Talks With Lyndon LaRouche. If you
would like to send questions in to Mr. LaRouche, he can be
reached at ``{EIR} Talks With LaRouche,'' P.O. Box 17390,
Washington, D.C., 20041-0390. 
   Mr. LaRouche, we have a recent situation in Waco, Texas,
which has startled the American population. It appears that
the Branch Davidian members inside the compound in Waco,
Texas set themselves on fire, and went down to a fiery death. 
   What could have been done in that situation, what
exactly was happening? The American population certainly did
not understand what was going on, and perhaps the Clinton
administration did not understand what was going on. 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Well, that is true. The Clinton
administration itself was set up and had no understanding of
what was going on. 
   The most credible person in this whole fiasco is, of
course, the Attorney General, Janet Reno, who has said that
she believed, and was misled, and took responsibility for
allowing the President to be implicitly misled. She was
misled by the experts. 
   Only the FBI and the Cult Awareness Network have
actually claimed that it was the Branch Davidian members who
set fire to the compound, as it is called. There is no
evidence of that. There are simply the unsupported assertions
of these people, who contradict themselves all over the
place. 
   There is an article that appeared in the Houston
{Chronicle} just a couple of days before this event, which is
extremely significant in the sense that it shows what an
honest group of journalists--not necessarily every last word,
but well-informed and serious journalists--thought about the
event, in contrast to those sections of the U.S. news media,
such as CNN and so forth, which were being brainwashed,
effectively, by a criminal association called the Cult
Awareness Network. 
   What is behind the Houston {Chronicle} article, is the
following set of facts. Number one, that David Koresh wanted
to go to trial. Why? Because he was certain, and his lawyers
were certain, as the lawyers stated, they would win the
trial. 
   Why? Because they did not start the shooting. An
out-of-control ATF assault [team] started the shooting on the
first day; the government knew this, of course, and knew the
whole dirty story. 
   The dirty story is, that the Cult Awareness Network, a
criminal association--that is, an association which engages
in kidnappings and does lying and similar kinds of other
unlawful activities, according to court record--using a
convicted felon, this Rick Ross, who appeared on television
often, as an affiant, and other persons associated with Rick
Ross, planted a story into a {corrupted} Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms Agency, which had been corrupted since 1986. 
   But a corrupted agency planted a false story by aid of
their accomplices in Australia, so that a corrupted or
misinformed, misled, ATF intelligence, actually bought a
story concocted entirely by--at least on the surface--the
Cult Awareness Network and its felon affiants. They accepted
this story to the point of organizing an operation which was
totally unnecessary, an assault operation against this
center, when local law enforcement had advised them
beforehand, that the story they had gotten was all crap. They
knew the people, knew the situation, and said if you want to
serve a warrant over there, give it to the sheriff's
department, and David Koresh will come in in response to the
warrant, as he always has, whenever these things come up. 
   But at the point at which they had four dead bodies of
Federal agents, even though the FBI came in to clean up the
mess created by ATF's bungling, the fact of the four dead
bodies and other factors, and the continuing influence of not
only the Cult Awareness Network through its backers, the
American Family Foundation, but also of the Anti-Defamation
League, which has corrupted {many} law enforcement agencies
in the country, the factions tied to the ADL, including the
Quantico section of the FBI, moved to a cover-up. 
   The Houston {Chronicle} article infers--it does not
state it, but it infers it, and the inference is based on
statements that were not published--that this faction of the
government {did not want} David Koresh ever to reach a
courtroom for trial, because if he did, there would be an
inquiry into the original warrant: Who had sworn to what, and
why did the ATF swallow that bunch of hokum, to set this
bloodbath into motion? 
   The best ``solution,'' from the standpoint of the ADL
and CAN, and those in the FBI and elsehwere, such as the
Quantico unit, which had been penetrated and corrupted by the
ADL, and that is a matter of fact, from their standpoint, was
that they all be dead. 
   Therefore, at some point, a totally unnecessary
operation is launched about 51 days after this whole thing
began--and suddenly, they are all dead. 
   Now, who did what to whom at that point? What story is
going around, is {irrelevant.} 
   The point is, that Koresh and his people wanted to live.
They believed they had to get to court. They of course
believed that they had to follow what they thought was the
inspired message of God and believed that God would protect
them, which explains their behavior, and however you want to
criticize their theology, that is another matter. But you
have to go by what they were, what they believed, and what
they did. 
   On the other hand, those who tried to con the President
of the United States and the Attorney General, wanted all of
these people dead; they never wanted the thing to go to
court. 

              ``The Dirty Role of ADL and CAN
               Can't Be Swept Under the Rug''

   Imagine: it goes to court, and the truth comes out. As
Herb Brin, for example, has stated in an article published in
a Jewish publication in Texas. The ADL is all over this
thing, and we have evidence of that, as the San Francisco
case, for example, on the ADL corruption of law enforcement
{nationally,} indicates: that the ADL and CAN cooked this
whole thing up, planted false information on a government
department which they had partly corrupted or influenced in a
corrupt way, to cause this thing to occur, and that those who
are allied with the ADL and CAN in this operation, fearing
that the case would be drawn into court and their whole dirty
role would come out, which would mean the end of CAN {and}
the ADL if this thing ever came out in court, were very happy
to find that they are all dead--or virtually all dead--and
they will put the eight survivors out of the way in some way,
just bury the thing under the rug, and the case will never
come to court--they hope, and thus the dirty role of the ADL
and CAN in setting up this holocaust, can be kept under the
rug. 
   I don't think that will happen. There is an
international outcry on this, there are people in the Senate,
there are people all over the place, there are people in
Texas, who are very angry about this: I think there {will} be
an exposure of this thing. 
   
   Q: You mentioned Quantico. What is the Quantico section
of the FBI, and what does it do? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Quantico, naturally, is considered largely
a Marine base, but it is also an FBI training center, and it
is the base of the Hostage Response Team, the so-called
``special forces'' types of units of the FBI. 
   We have determined--and we have the official paperwork,
that the ADL has been part of the training, monitoring, and
intelligence unit for those FBI units based in Quantico. 
   It was FBI-Quantico which was key in setting up this
last phase of the operation, which led to the bloody
holocaust. 
   
   Q: Part of what this hostage negotiating team was doing,
it seemed, to the American public, was psychological warfare,
making Koresh and his followers go even more crazy., 
   What is the rationale behind this? What are they trying
to do? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: I would not want to speculate. That is a
long story, and I would not want to speculate. 
   But we have enough, with what we have got, and people
have asked me about this, and I have advised them, I tell
them, ``Look, don't try to surmise or speculate on what
{might be} the explanation for various events. Forget it. We
have the truth. Let's not contaminate the truth with
speculation.'' 
   The truth is, that we know how the Australian operation
was run. We know what the CAN part of this operation was in
chief. We know that the ATF was corrupted. We have
indications which are crucial as to the nature of the
corruption. We have from law enforcement people on the ground
in the state of Texas, what they knew about the situation.
Our people have followed Priscilla Coates and Rick Ross and
the rest of these guys in Texas and what they were doing
there. 
   We know the rap sheet, the criminal record of Rick Ross,
the key affiant, in these operations. We have traced in
Australia, on the ground, in detail, how the Australian side
of this operation was set up to bring about this holocaust.
We know the role of the ADL. We have been able to follow in
detail the way in which the national news media--the
broadcast media and much of the national print media, but
especially the broadcast media--have been putting out the CAN
garbage invented by CAN and the ADL. 
   We know, from our work on the ground, and some of the
legal problems here; we {know} the strong motive that the
Quantico and other sections of the FBI and other elements had
for {not} allowing this case to come to court, {not} allowing
that original warrant {ever} to be investigated, not allowing
the original assault on the compound {ever} to be
investigated under the eyes of due process. 
   [commercial break] 
    
              Will the Clinton Administration
              Clean the ADL Out of Government?

   Q: Mr. LaRouche, we have been discussing Waco, Texas. It
is very interesting. At the very beginning of the Kennedy
administration, the Bay of Pigs was handed over to him. I
think that one of the positive things that came out of the
Bay of Pigs fiasco, was that President Kennedy fired Henry
Kissinger and fired Allen Dulles. What do you think the
President should do in this situation? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Absolutely. I think Janet Reno was misled. 
   Look at what we know about this, as I was just saying.
We also know something very important, going back years, on
paper. We know that the Anti-Defamation League, using, in
part, in collaboration with the Cult Awareness Network--which
is a throwaway front of undesirables, essentially, who do
kidnapping for hire and who have been indicted repeatedly on
this matter--that this network has penetrated law enforcement
for many years, to corrupt effects, for its own advantage. 
   We have the San Francisco case, for example, which
exposes a national pattern of {corrupt penetration} of police
departments and other law enforcement agencies, to bring
about unlawful actions by members of law enforcement
agencies. 
   We have {proof} of the continuing, longstanding corrupt
relationship between the Anti-Defamation League and the
Justice Department in general, as well as the Federal Bureau
of Investigation in particular--and of many other law
enforcement agencies in the country. 
   So we know exactly what was going on. When Janet Reno
speaks of ``experts,'' she is speaking of the ADL, CAN, etc.,
etc., this crowd--this nest. 
   The only way this could have been avoided, is if the
Clinton administration had recognized that this corrupt
relationship, the corruption of law enforcement by groups
like the Anti-Defamation League and CAN--the ADL is
politically a very {powerful} group, because of its
backing--is the root of the problem, and that they had to
clean that out of there. 
   To take on the ADL and what it represents: That is a big
political problem for the Clinton administration. They are
already in a quarrel with them. These ADL characters and
their friends are complaining that the wrong Jews have been
employed by the Clinton administration; I guess they are
mostly not Russian Jews, or something. So that is the
problem. 
   What this does, is to put the gun right to the
Presidency, and says, ``All right, Mr. Clinton, if you do
{not} do as Kennedy did to clean out the mess from your
government, you are in trouble. The mess in your government
in this case, Mr. Clinton, is the ADL and its friends. Are
you prepared, as, obviously, Janet Reno did {not} wish to do,
to recognize the ADL as an {adversary} of the interests of
the United States government, and to take action accordingly,
or not?'' 
   And if he is, then he will come out of this thing a
little battered, but survive, and will be a much better
President for it--and Janet Reno will be greatly
strengthened, if that occurs. 
   If they duck the ADL business, if they try to make peace
with the ADL, then this administration will be severely
crippled. 

               ADL's National Spying Network
            Under Investigation in San Francisco

   Q: Mr. LaRouche, you mentioned earlier that the ADL was
behind the founding of the second Ku Klux Klan in 1915.You
have indicated that they support the Pike statue. Most people
think of the ADL as some kind of a civic institution against
this kind of racism, against the KKK, and yet, you also
mentioned the San Francisco case, where some startling
revelations came out. 
   But perhaps the American public does not know about
these. Can you please give us a sense of those revelations
that came out of the San Francisco raid of the ADL offices? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: For some reason, it started in San
Francisco. 
   They had what is now on paper, the affidavits of law
enforcement of the investigation show to be going back more
than 25 years, that a network of agents run by a fellow
called Irwin Suall out of the so-called Fact-Finding Division
of the Anti-Defamation League in New York, and also out of
the office, more recently, of a woman named Mira Lansky
Boland, operating in Washington, D.C., have penetrated
massively law enforcement; and they have hired agents to
penetrate law enforcement agencies, and to corrupt them,
ostensibly for four purposes: To influence law enforcement
agencies' actions unlawfully; secondly, to cause
law-enforcement agents to do things which are illegal;
thirdly, to gain access to computers and so forth, to get
information which it is unlawful for the ADL to have; and
fourthly, apparently that is the charge, is {to sell}
privileged information (which it is unlawful for the ADL to
possess) to the Republic of South Africa security forces, and
so on and so forth. 
   For example, this fellow (Hani) who was killed down in
South Africa apparently was one of the names on that
particular list. 
   This was not just San Francisco; more massively, it was
Los Angeles, which is, of course, the Hollywood center of the
ADL's operation; the Chicago law enforcement--the Chicago
Police Department is massively penetrated--as well as
Houston, Atlanta, and so forth and so on. 
   That is clear; there are times when the FBI was
operating on the basis of a hard-wired relationship to ADL
officers, the corruption there that I referred to, and that
is only part of it. 
   We have court records showing how {massively} this has
been going on--all kinds of unlawful actions. 
   What has happened, is that, purely on the basis of
enforcing the law, the ADL and its agents and accomplices
have been found breaking the law massively in a very serious
way {nationally} in the tradition of Jonathan Pollard, who
delivered secrets, effectively, to the Soviet Union--military
secrets, which resulted, ostensibly, in the death of a number
of U.S. agents in Russia, who were betrayed by this stuff. In
the tradition of Jonathan Pollard, the ADL has been stealing
information which it is illegal for it to acquire or to
possess, and then delivering this information to foreign
governments and so forth and so on. 
   So that is the general nature of the thing, and the San
Francisco police action, to investigate the dirty operations
in its own bailiwick, have led to the exposure, at least in a
preliminary way, of this network which we have known, of
course, to exist for some time. 

   Q: And it's 12,000 individual citizens, and 950
organizations that have been spied upon by this private
organization. 
   MR. LAROUCHE: It is 12,000 {particular cases} that they
referred to; there are probably double that number of
individual names, organizations, entities, households, and
whatnot. 
   [commercial break] 

        The Russian SDI Offer: Headline Should Read:
         ``Russia Accepts Finally, 10 Years Later,
         President Reagan's March 23, 1983 Offer''

   Q: Mr. LaRouche, very recently, in the beginning of
April, an {Izvestia} piece appeared which indicated that
Russia was about to make an offer to Bill Clinton at the
Vancouver Summit to jointly develop an SDI approach. 
   We have not heard much about this in the news, and I was
wondering if there was {any} indication that the Clinton
administration is considering this very interesting offer. 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Oh yes, there are many evidences of it. 
   We followed up into Moscow itself. We have been working
together with a network internationally of top
military-intelligence strategic specialists who were
formerly, in the earlier days, back as far as 1982-83, in the
middle of the SDI business, assessing the Soviets. 
   We have also had, at the beginning of this week, in Rome
and in Washington, D.C., from Russian officials, very
specific information on this; and we have, of course, the
assessment, which we have pulled together, together with our
many top military and intelligence opposite numbers in many
nations with whom we discussed this. 
   The picture is this. I will just indicate, that in Rome
early this week, there was a Western European Union meeting,
which was addressed by a Professor Leonid Fituni of Russia's
Global Strategy Center, who then, in his address, and also at
a press conference, in answer to questions right after his
address, indicated that yes, Russian President Boris Yeltsin
had taken up this offer in broad terms with President Clinton
personally, at the recent summit in Vancouver; that the thing
was under discussion. 
   There was also an address by an official of the Russian
government who was visiting Washington, and at a press
conference he had more to say about this. So there is much
confirmation of this. 
   Now what we do know, are two things. 
   First of all, the opposition. You should remember, that
one of the key opponents of the SDI inside the Reagan
administration, the guy who tried to kill it the night before
the speech, was James Baker III, the Bush man within the
Reagan administration at that time. Baker then became
Secretary of State and took the SDIO office under the State
Department's effective control, in dealing with these kinds
of things. 
   Also, people such as those who are behind the GPALs, so
called, the Global Protection Against Accidental Launch, this
crowd has a vested monetary interest in avoiding anything of
this type. 
   So you have tremendous resistance from certain parts of
the institutions in the West, to acknowledging this business.
You have a mythology being spread by some of these people,
saying this was an April Fool's joke, and so forth, which is
a lot of nonsense. But they said it, nonetheless. And
therefore, the international major daily media, with a few
exceptions, has put the lid on this story, one of the biggest
stories of the century. 
   Imagine if the headline should be: ``Russia Accepts
Finally, 10 Years Later, President Reagan's March 23, 1983
Offer''--which is what they have done. 
   As to the technical feasibility: this is actually
brilliant. Let me indicate how. 
   We wrote about this back in 1983. There was a book
published called {Beam Defense,} in which this plasmoid
technology which is offered was discussed; in 1985, in a
special report called {Global Showdown} of July 1985, there
was a reference to my assessment that a phased array radar
installation, so called, in Russia was actually a weapon,
that it was a phased microwave weapon to create plasma-type
weapons, and other comments to the same effect, that this was
the basic Soviet capability, their leading capability. [See
{Global Showdown,} pp. 227-234 and Appendix, ``Mastering EMP
for Offense and Defense,'' pp. 338-339.] 
   What has happened, is that the Russians have been
working on some very high-powered optical lasers over years.
What they have done, is to combine the two technologies to
develop an ionized plasma--we are talking about billions or
tens of billions of volts per centimeter in space; that is a
very powerful thing for any projectile to run into. But not
only putting it in space, but {being able to steer it} by aid
of channelling a pathway and directing it with the aid of a
powerful optical laser. 
   That is essentially what is depicted in the April 2
{Izvestia} front-page article with the accompanying picture
which depicts this kind of arrangement. We have checked into
this since then, and, to make short of it, all of us who are
experts in the area, agree: This is a very sophisticated
weapon, one we should cooperate to deal with, if we wish to
deal with problems like, for example, the so-called GPALs
problem of the accidental launch by some nation which starts
throwing its SCUDs around. 
   
   Q: What are the strategic implications of this kind of
cooperation? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Well, there is a military capability, of
course, and we would be {idiots} if we were not to acquire
and not to share it if the Russians are offering. We would be
absolute lunatics. 
   One has to remember that the idea of rocket intercept by
the so-called GPALs technology is economically lunacy, from
the strategic standpoint. It will cost more to knock a SCUD
out of the sky, by anti-missile techniques of this type, than
it will be to build and launch a SCUD. So therefore, the
{defense} has a massive economic disadvantage relative to the
offense. 
   [commercial break] 

          To Avoid a New Cold War, U.S. and Russia
  Must Cooperate in Scientific and Technological Progress

   Q: Mr. LaRouche, can the SDI offer that was made by
Boris Yeltsin, change the axiomatics of foreign policy
vis-a-vis the United States? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: As I was saying, militarily, this weapon
is one we need, and you cannot get by with this GPALs
nonsense as we saw with the failure of the attempt of the
anti-missile missiles to take out the SCUDs in the Gulf war,
so called. That does not work; and the Jericho missile by the
Israelis is another piece of junk which is no good either. 
   This is the kind of technology that will do it, or one
of the kinds of technologies that will do it; it also has two
other strategic implications, apart from the obvious military
ones, which would be sufficient grounds in themselves for
accepting the offer. 
   We have a problem in Russia, as a result of the lunacy
of Mrs. Thatcher and George Bush at the end of 1989 and early
1990, who warned of the ``geopolitical threat'' of Germany,
of Germany's unification, because they feared that Germany
would link up with an economic revival of the liberated
regions of the former Warsaw Pact to the East, which would be
an end to the domination of the world by this British Empire
idea in its modern form. 
   They were so concerned with that, that they decided to
{destroy} eastern Europe and Russia by things like shock
therapy, Jeffrey Sachs, by IMF conditionalities, and by
looting of the type that George Soros is conducting in that
part of the world. 
   What this has done, is that we are now down to 30
percent of 1989 levels of production in the eastern European
and former non-Soviet eastern Europe; we are down similarly,
not quite as much, but similarly, in the former Soviet Union. 
   This has produced a {rage} against the West, inside
Russia and elsewhere, which is unbelievable. That is, these
people who suddenly in 1990 were euphoric, they were going to
make friends with the West, the Cold War was over, they were
going to cooperate, they put trust in the West--now, they
hate the West, because they feel they have been betrayed by
an evil West. 
   We are headed very rapidly towards the potential dumping
of what Yeltsin has represented; and if we are unlucky, the
emergence of not a communist but a Russian hard-line
government in Moscow. That is the danger; and we are back
then to a new kind of Cold War, with local wars spreading all
over the planet and all other kinds of disasters. 
   If we wish to avoid that, we have to think of what the
alternative is, what changes have to be made. We have to, of
course, dump the IMF conditionalities. We have to take
Jeffrey Sachs back to Harvard, and put him in a cage or
something. This guy is a menace, a lunatic, a strategic
menace to the world. 
   We have to offer cooperation of the type that we tried
to {prevent} with our anti-Germany campaign of 1990. We have
to clean up the Balkan mess, which Britain and the United
States, {with Gorbachov,} unleashed, in order to screw up
continental Europe. 
   But we have to put a factor of science and technology
into cooperation between the United States and Moscow, which
will change the psychological, political, social situation
away from this rage, which is leading to very dangerous
results, and lead into some stable basis for renewed good
faith and cooperation; and this cooperation, around this one
high technology offer from Moscow, {could be the key that
unlocks that door.} And if we do not unlock that door, {we
are some kind of idiots,} and should be blamed for whatever
folly betakes us as a result of our rejecting that offer. 

   Q: In 1989, when the Wall came down, you offered up an
approach called the European Triangle for economic
development as a means of unifying East and West. 
   Can the SDI be incorporated into this approach, and
would it resolve the crisis that we are now seeing? 
   MR. LAROUCHE: Oh, it was. 
   Remember that when I designed what became known as the
SDI back in the periods into 1982, when I was cooperating
with the Reagan administration on this, we always had a
notion--at least those of us who were pushing this
package--of an absolute interrelationship between the SDI as
a mode of strategic detente and economic cooperation, and
{general global economic recovery.} And in our discussions
with Moscow, which I conducted on behalf of the Reagan
National Security Council, we made it very clear that yes,
the United States was headed for a mess, and the Soviet
economy was headed for a collapse if it continued its present
course; and that only by such kinds of cooperation using
scientific and technological progress spinoffs to revive a
technological revolution in the civilian economies, could we
avoid the kind of mess which we are now in with the so-called
budget crisis in Washington, and the mess which brought down
the Soviet empire. 
   So the two things have always been connected. There was
never any possibility of separating the two, and it was clear
in my mind, back in 1989, when I followed up my Berlin speech
of October 12, 1988, with this proposal, that the two things
were connected, and I indicated so to all who would and were
able to hear what I was offering. 

   Q: Thank you very much, Mr. LaRouche. 

                           - 30 -

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         John Covici
          [email-masked]