From kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com  Ukn Jul  9 12:26:03 1993
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From: kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com (Russell Kent)
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Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 93 11:22:44 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307091020.AA16867@resi.waldorf-gmbh.de>; from "Andreas Busse" at Jul 9, 93 12:20 pm
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I've been thinking about memory.  I'm a software weenie, so if I've
seriously mis-understood, please *gently* correct me.

Some folks have pointed out that since this is a RISC CPU, then the
executables will be significantly larger (40% was the number I read).
This implies that 8Mb of RAM really is not sufficient.  The next logical
memory size is 16Mb (you could go to 12Mb, but that makes 2-way interleaving
impossible I believe).  To take full advantage of 2-way interleaving though,
you need two banks, which therefore implies 16 1Mb SIMMs.

This has the nice feature of being expandable to 32Mb, 40Mb, and 64Mb.
(Since any bank of 8 could be upgraded to 4Mb SIMMs.  Upgrading a single
bank of 4 would eliminate the 2-way interleave capability, right?)

BUT, it requires all that expensive 4-, 6-, or 8- layer M/B real estate.
Plus drill holes through all those layers is not a pleasant thought (routing
headaches, reliability, cost).  And 16 SIMM sockets ($).

Since Waldorf has (seems to have) agreed to produce boards that have surface
mount components, would it be reasonable to mount discrete memory chips
on the M/B?  Here was what I was considering:

  18 1Mbx4 70ns (is 70ns fast enough?) surface mount DRAMs on the M/B.
      (18 because I assume the 3730 part wants parity bits)
   8 standard SIMMs on M/B

This way every board has 8Mb to start with.  This is enough for a bare-bones
no X11 system (or one that swaps alot :-).  One can easily add an additional
8Mb to make a 16Mb system.  Or add 32Mb to make a 40Mb system.  Or give up
2-way interleaving (if that's possible) and make a 12Mb, 24Mb, or 28Mb system.

Important questions:

  - Will the 18 components in small surface mount packages use less
    real estate than 8 SIMM sockets?

  - How does mounting 18 discretes compare with 8 SIMM sockets cost-wise?
    (PWB fabrication has fewer holes, but board stuffer has more stuffing).

  - If one makes as few as 56 boards you break the 1000's in the DRAM count
    (which gets you to the first cost break).  But cost-wise how does this
    compare to SIMMs?

Russell Kent
-- 
Texas Instruments                   rkent@lobby.ti.com   -or-
PO Box 655012  M/S 3624             kent@tifsim.pac.sc.ti.com
Dallas, TX 75265                    TI-MSG: RAK9
Voice: (214) 917-2285               FAX: (214) 917-5112

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  9 13:31:38 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:28:58 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091622.AA02441@titania.pac.sc.ti.com> from "Russell Kent" at Jul 9, 93 11:22:44 am
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I also asked awhile ago with no answer.

With the 3730 will the motherboard work with 4 4MBx9 simms?  

If so will it be interleaved or not?

What exactly do you need for interleaving?  Multiples of 8 sims of the same
size (per group of 8)?

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov  Ukn Jul  9 14:55:49 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307091848.AA10482@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 13:48:22 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307091622.AA02441@titania.pac.sc.ti.com> from "Russell Kent" at Jul 9, 93 11:22:44 am
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> I've been thinking about memory.  I'm a software weenie, so if I've
> seriously mis-understood, please *gently* correct me.
> 
> Some folks have pointed out that since this is a RISC CPU, then the
> executables will be significantly larger (40% was the number I read).
> This implies that 8Mb of RAM really is not sufficient.  The next logical
> memory size is 16Mb (you could go to 12Mb, but that makes 2-way interleaving
> impossible I believe).  To take full advantage of 2-way interleaving though,
> you need two banks, which therefore implies 16 1Mb SIMMs.
> 
> This has the nice feature of being expandable to 32Mb, 40Mb, and 64Mb.
> (Since any bank of 8 could be upgraded to 4Mb SIMMs.  Upgrading a single
> bank of 4 would eliminate the 2-way interleave capability, right?)
> 
> BUT, it requires all that expensive 4-, 6-, or 8- layer M/B real estate.
> Plus drill holes through all those layers is not a pleasant thought (routing
> headaches, reliability, cost).  And 16 SIMM sockets ($).
Then, if we run out of space, we can put the memory on a card, and only pay
for the edge connector in terms of 4+-layer MB space; the memory would
be sitting on a 2-layer or so card, which would be cheaper.  But bear in mind
that the motherboard has to be baby-AT size or (PERHAPS) full-size AT size,
to fit in most cases.

[deletia] 
> Important questions:
> 
>   - Will the 18 components in small surface mount packages use less
>     real estate than 8 SIMM sockets?
How can they?  You're talking about laying that number of SIMMS down flat on
the motherboard, instead of mounting them nearly perpendicular...
 
>   - How does mounting 18 discretes compare with 8 SIMM sockets cost-wise?
>     (PWB fabrication has fewer holes, but board stuffer has more stuffing).
How do you replace a bad chip?  How do you even swap the chips around to try
to see which ones are bad?  
 
>   - If one makes as few as 56 boards you break the 1000's in the DRAM count
>     (which gets you to the first cost break).  But cost-wise how does this
>     compare to SIMMs?
Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?


> Russell Kent

	Keith


 
From Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU  Ukn Jul  9 15:42:16 1993
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Date: 09 Jul 93 15:39:01 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re: SIMMs
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--- Keith Rohrer wrote:
Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?
--- end of quoted material ---
4 Meg by 8 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each, 
1 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each,
2 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $250 each.

I doubt that you'll get quantities large enough to reduce this much.

Oh, it's time to consider 1 Meg by 8 SIMMs obsolete -- they're on the way
out.

 
From broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu  Ukn Jul  9 16:15:31 1993
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 16:12:00 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <5408910@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Steven D. Ligett" at Jul 9, 93 03:39:01 pm
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> 
> --- Keith Rohrer wrote:
> Can we also get the SIMMs in huge quantities?
> --- end of quoted material ---
> 4 Meg by 8 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each, 
> 1 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $125 each,
> 2 Meg by 32 80 ns SIMMs are about $250 each.
> 
> I doubt that you'll get quantities large enough to reduce this much.
> 
> Oh, it's time to consider 1 Meg by 8 SIMMs obsolete -- they're on the way
> out.
> 
Why use 80ns instead of 70ns big price saving?

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok


 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 15:31:22 1993
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Date: 15 Jul 93 15:27:57 EDT
From: Steven.D.Ligett@Dartmouth.EDU (Steven D. Ligett)
Subject: Re:  SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

--- Andreas Busse wrote:
This is all more or less true. 3-chip x9 SIMMs have only few more chips than
x36 SIMMs. The discussion what SIMMs we should use had no technical reason,
just a practical. RAMs are going to be more expensive, so it would be
desirable for most of us to use the SIMMs we already *have*, and these are
1Mx9 and 4Mx9 SIMMs, with a few exceptions.
--- end of quoted material ---
I think it makes the most sense to design for what we *will be* able to buy,
not what we have now.  Building a "junk box" computer may be fun, but is a
whole different thing from designing and building a product.

SIMM "shape" is tending from the older x8 and x9 SIMMs to x32, x33, x36, and
x40 SIMMs.  Some of this is due to Wang Labs reaching out from the grave to
try to strangle other companies.  Some is due to benefits of the x32ish
shape.
 
From owner-riscy@pyramid.com  Thu Jul 15 16:26:59 1993
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From: rohrer@fncrd8.fnal.gov (Keith Rohrer)
Message-Id: <9307152020.AA23060@fncrdh.fnal.gov>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:20:43 -0600 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <5471547@prancer.Dartmouth.EDU> from "Steven D. Ligett" at Jul 15, 93 03:27:57 pm
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> --- Andreas Busse wrote:
> This is all more or less true. 3-chip x9 SIMMs have only few more chips than
> x36 SIMMs. The discussion what SIMMs we should use had no technical reason,
> just a practical. RAMs are going to be more expensive, so it would be
> desirable for most of us to use the SIMMs we already *have*, and these are
> 1Mx9 and 4Mx9 SIMMs, with a few exceptions.
> --- end of quoted material ---
> I think it makes the most sense to design for what we *will be* able to buy,
> not what we have now.  Building a "junk box" computer may be fun, but is a
You mean, buy the motherboard, let it sit in a closet until the following
summer when I can afford the memory?  Depending on how layout goes, it might
be good to have a daughtercard with (full-speed) simm sockets of x36 or x9,
depending on the card or some of each.  If we have enough VLSI chips for
the real work, board space may not be a problem, but beware also creeping
featurism and overflowing the board with all the connectors for the things
the wonder-chips will also do...

> SIMM "shape" is tending from the older x8 and x9 SIMMs to x32, x33, x36, and
> x40 SIMMs.  Some of this is due to Wang Labs reaching out from the grave to
> try to strangle other companies.  Some is due to benefits of the x32ish
> shape.
Hmmm...more expensive, and yet you need to replace it in larger hunks if/when
it goes bad.  Sounds superior to me...  /*sarcasm off*/

	Keith

 
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From: Bill Broadley <broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 16:49:07 -0500 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <9307152020.AA23060@fncrdh.fnal.gov> from "Keith Rohrer" at Jul 15, 93 03:20:43 pm
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> You mean, buy the motherboard, let it sit in a closet until the following
> summer when I can afford the memory?  Depending on how layout goes, it might
> be good to have a daughtercard with (full-speed) simm sockets of x36 or x9,
> depending on the card or some of each.  If we have enough VLSI chips for
> the real work, board space may not be a problem, but beware also creeping
> featurism and overflowing the board with all the connectors for the things
> the wonder-chips will also do...

I have 16 MB of 4Mb x 9 simms.  I could probably get over $400 if I sold then
then buy 2 8 MB sims which would allow interleaved access at twice the
density (2 slots instead of 4).  In the future 8 slots could provide a 
maxmimum memory of 128 MB (4 times the density).  The motherboard would be 
smaller, cheaper, and interleaved memory would me much more flexible (i.e.
possible with 2 sims instead of 8 simms).

Unfortunately the 3730 doesn't support them 8-(

But I'll post my suggestion to that in a minute.

-- 
Bill					1st>	Broadley@neurocog.lrdc.pitt.edu
Broadley@schneider3.lrdc.pitt.edu <2nd 	3rd> 	             Broadley+@pitt.edu
Linux is great.         Bike to live, live to bike.                      PGP-ok
 
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Subject: Re: SIMMs
To: riscy@pyramid.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 16:13:53 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9307152045.AA24431@luna.think.com>; from "Jerry Callen" at Jul 15, 93 4:45 pm
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.36.1.2]
Sender: owner-riscy@pyramid.com
Reply-To: riscy@pyramid.com

> space for sockets and (probably) more drivers. The comment that 3 chip x9
> SIMMs don't have more chips that x36 SIMMs doesn't wash; if you have OLD
> SIMMs that you want to reuse, I'll bet they are NOT 3 chip SIMMs. Are they?
> 
Well my old SIMMs ARE 3 chip!!  And I'd rather not get a new type of memory.

--
 /------------------------------+--------------------------------------\
| Carlo J. Calica               | Linux:  Choice of the GNU Generation  |
|     calica@cae.wisc.edu       | Dittos from the People's              | 
 \ University of Wisconsin      | Republic of Madison                  / 
 
