From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 18:35:19 1990
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Date:         Fri, 11 May 90 21:29:00 EDT
Reply-To: "J.B. WANG" <SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: "J.B. WANG" <SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Peace and Index
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Ok, folks, let's have peace. But I always believe we should do something
positively instead of passively. Again and again, I think a standard and
de facto standard or even a convention is needed for something. Without
ASCII, we would not have been able to have enjoyed the CCNET or Usernet.
Today, PostScript is becoming the de facto standard for page description.
We should all cheer, because we have suffered enough for having no
compatibility between graphic and text formatting softwares, and a programmer
has to invent his own file formats.

Now another thing needs to be standardize: Chinese document indexing.
It is very easy to read a English book or manual, because you can not
only use the table of contents but more importantly the indices. I write
a lot, and designed an indexor.c to insert indices into a Scribe or
LaTeX file, and people in comp.text (now comp.text.tex) were so fond of it.
Now, how would you index a Chinese book? Has anybody figured out an algorithm
for that? or has anybody designed an electronic typesetter (like LaTeX)
that would do it? I answer seem to be NO. However, I have got some ideas,
and I don't know what the netters feelings are:

my idea is to use PinYin as the key to be sorted, i.e., in LaTeX it
would be:

\index{PinYin@\verb=GB}

and again, I think I have to have a Chinese version of indexor for that.
It should do the following, if you create a

\index{GB}

the indexor should automatically generate for you

\index{PinYin@\verb=GB}

since the indexed is Chinese. For those who have no text formatting background,
indices are normally picked up and stored in a separate file to be sorted
and formatted. A list of index is very very important if the book is used
as a reference book.


[Stop]

Progress report
***************

AS I said, bind release of ch-series product and ByX 2.0 is due in July, and
we yet have many things to do. Since Dr. Yan is in Berkeley, Zhao Sanping
(who is responsible for HP support) is in Boston and I am here, it is hard
to elaborate. We decided that I will be taking care of text formatting part
and provide a device independent or semi-independent output file format
so that Dr. Yan can write a previewer to show the output on the screen,
Mr. Zhao can write a HP driver to drive a HP LaserJet XXX, and I can make
my PostScript driver to put it in PostScript, and later Epson and blah blah
driver can also translate it. These two days, I have essentially finished
this part, and the formattor is called:

chstex  -- since it uses a subset of LaTeX/Scribe commands

and the output format is: dvs (DeVice Semi-independent format), and
I am close to completing: dvs2ps and dvstty, for PostScript and screen
respectively.

I should point out that all ByX 2.0, HP formatter/driver, PostScript
formatter/driver are all functional, but we don't think it should be the
way, because for 1 driver we need one formatter, and we are using all
different formatting languages. Of course, the ultimate goal is to have
a full Chinese LaTeX and and Chinese Word to meet both ends, and since
the time is pressing, we have to move step one before we move step two.


Sincerely yours,

J.B. Wang

p.s.: thanks for all the good points and encouragements posted on CCNET
      and directly mailed to me during these few weeks.

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 19:50:33 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 16:40:46 PDT
Reply-To: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

        I support the idea of indexing Chinese using pinyin. The problem
now seems to be:
        1. How to order Tong2-yin1-zi4
        2. When a character has multiple yin1, which to choose?
the possible choices are:
        1.1 According to bihua,i.e.,number of strokes.
        1.2 According to bu4shou3,
        1.3 According to frequency
I have arranged dictionaries according to frequency. This arrangement may
be the most efficient. But it is subjective to some extent. The existing
published dictionaries all seems to use 1.2 or 1.1. 1.1 provide an almost
unabiguous order. I have used 1.1 type of index a lot. It never give me
any trouble. In the end, one remembers the order. The important thing is,
everybody agrees with the order.
        2.1 according to the highest frequency
        2.2 according to first pinyin.
Here, I would opt for frequency. Since the numbers of such characters are
limited, we can study them case by case. The character "yi1"(one) appears
most often as yi2 or yi4. But we probably should choose "yi1" since most
people do not aware how often they actual pronounce "yi2" and "yi4".
        Before we make our own dicisions, we need to know what other
proposals are there. Is there any National Standards already there? If
the answer is NO, we can just proceed to make our own and push it to
become a standard.
                                        Yan Yong-Xin

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 21:08:17 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 20:55:45 EDT
Reply-To: Scott Horne <horne-scott%CS.YALE.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Scott Horne <horne-scott%CS.YALE.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Re:  Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Actually, in the Chinese metafonts I've been developing (very slowly, and
please don't write for information, as I don't have any), I've been putting
in stroke counts and have been considering adding radicals (`bu4shou3').
The problem with radicals is that there are so many radical systems around.
I'm satisfied with the one used in _Kang1 Xi1 zi4dian3_, but it won't work
at all for jiantizi.

                                        --Scott

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 21:28:47 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 21:06:00 EDT
Reply-To: "J.B. WANG" <SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: "J.B. WANG" <SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      RE: Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

I have limited number of Chinese books to look at, but I promise that
I will check into a bunch in an Esian Library. Probably Yuan Jiang can
do this favor for us. My impression is that only foreign authors names
are index if there is an index at all. In 99.9% of Chinese books, there
is no index.

If any thing can be called an index in Chinese books, then it is the guide
in a Chinese dictionary. The most popular and standard way today is
Bi3Hua4 and Bu4Shou3 Suo4Yin3
Bao3, plus a few pages of PinYin Suo4Yin3 (the a most representive word
of a Yin1). Of course, there were other methods such Si4Jao3 Hao4Ma2
(four corner code). But actually none of these would serve our purpose.

Yongxin's worry of homonyms is really a problem we should take care of.
This is not a serious problem since most of the things to be indexed
are phases instead of single words, and my way is to sort the homonyms
according to the sequence of occurrance. In Ch-series Chinese inputting
part, the PinYin dictionary is automatically re-arranged according to
the frequency of use, but I tried a few articles, there some words just
don't stay in the same place. Yongxin's recent experience proved that
after a few non-trivial articles, the dictionary becomes reasonably
stable. This is a very successful application of statistics in Chinese
computing. But if we index a book according to the frequency, then in
one book one word is in front of the other, and in the other the
vice-versa. This may evolve into some funny situations. Therefore, let's
keep our mind open first. If Chinese book indexing problem is not
solved, Chinese language will never catch up with this high-tech age.
There are passive ways to avoid this problem, i.e., have all the technical
books and higher education books in English (which is more or less the
case in Taiwan), but we are aiming at solving problems instead of
avoiding them.

By the way, I agree we should be less political in this network, but
unfortunately politics is a definite driving force behind many projects,
such as ch-series project. I personal find it annoying to see
<JianTiZi = CCP * (hard line)>, CCP is only 70 some years old, Chinese
language which included JianTiZi and FanTiZi is thousands years old.
We are promoting Chinese computing here because we feel we are responsible
for it, we like to see standardization of different aspects of Chinese
computing because it is preventing us from doing something more
important. Therefore, we should not expect to do Chinese computing
in vacuum either.


My philosophy is that since Chinese computing is still rather backward,
but thanks to GB we have some bases to work with. If we are not doing
anything new or revolutionary, we are wasting time. The job just to add
a competitive software to the market should be taken by a commercial
company, and we should do something much better than that.

Sincerely yours,

JB Wang

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 21:44:00 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 21:49:31 EDT
Reply-To: Huangxin Wang <wang%PENNMESS.PHYSICS.UPENN.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Huangxin Wang <wang%PENNMESS.PHYSICS.UPENN.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Re:  Chinese Indexing
Comments: To: qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU
              @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
Comments: cc: CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Ed Lai of Apple wrote a Chinese dictionary for Macintosh HyperCard.  It is
not a real dictinary, what it does is exactly what we are talking here:
the Chinese indexing.  It is very easy to use, with the Chinese OS on Mac
(need at least 2M RAM).  It is a good frame for set up Chinese indexing, eg.
compile a real dictionary, or compile your Chinese books or references, etc.
Basically, it uses either pin-yin or bu-shou at the lowest level (I find
the second kind most useful, since we usually knows better of how a word
look like than its exact spelling, though in Mac Chinese OS, I usually
use pin-yin as input).  The second level is sorted according to number of
strokes.  Thanks for Ed Lai who shared me the stack.

                Huangxin Wang of University of Pennsylvania

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Mon May 14 22:22:33 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 22:01:23 EDT
Reply-To: Scott Horne <horne-scott%CS.YALE.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Scott Horne <horne-scott%CS.YALE.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      RE: Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Jingbai isn't right in saying that the "Chinese language which included
JianTiZi and FanTiZi is thousands years old".  Not all the jiantizi have
been around for thousands of years.

Which secondary method to use for indexing when some characters have the
same pinyin is not very important in a practical sense.  Think about it:
When you use _Xin1hua2 zi4dian3_, do you open to the beginning of the
appropriate pinyin section and then think of the radical (`bu4shou3') of
the character you're trying to find?  When you're using the radical table
in the front, do you (after counting strokes) look for the section of
the list containing characters with the same first stroke (other than the
radical) as yours?  NO!  You just scan the whole list for your character.
So this isn't a crucial issue.

                                        --Scott

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Tue May 15 05:07:34 1990
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Date:         Mon, 14 May 90 20:01:23 PDT
Reply-To: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Re: Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

        It is not just a problem of indexing, it is also a problem of
inputing. If we are going to have unique input, no selections among a
number of possibilities, we need to add an index after pinyin. For
instance: yin1/1 the "yin1" in "yin1wei2"
          yin1/2 the "yin1" in "pin1yin1"
          shi4shi4/1   die
          shi4shi4/2   (thing-thing) everything (adverb)
          shi4shi4/4   world things
In Byx 1.x, I did not allow user to modify the dictionary and did not
allow the order of words change according to usage. What I had in mind
was that over time, user will remember the order of words and make the
correct selections without looking. Competitive pressure bends principles
In Byx 2.0 the user will be able to change anyway they like. But once
there is a standard, the user should at least have the option to go back
to the standard. Think of it, if everyone has the freedom to costumize
to their like, I won't be able to use your computer although we use the
same software. To put it at an extreme, think everyone has his own
keyboard layout.
        Guobiao actually already provides an acceptable order. Those
characters you know how to pronounce are arranged according to Pinyin,
and those you don't know are arranged according to bu4shou3.
        17 years ago, I got Xin1-Hua2-Zi4-Dian3, I first use bu4shou3
method, since I didn't know pinyin at the time. The teacher asked
everyone of use to have a xinhuazidian. When teacher was not looking,
we secretly were having competitions on who can be the fastest to find
a given character. I quickly became the undisputed champion. I could
even tell you which page (or a small range of pages) the character is in.
The secret, is pinyin. I learned pinyin at that time.
        Pinyin is not difficult, it has a gradual learning curve.

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Thu May 17 09:11:58 1990
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Date:         Thu, 17 May 90 00:28:00 EST
Reply-To: Dorothy Day <DAY%IUBACS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Dorothy Day <DAY%IUBACS.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      A little history on indexing...
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

It's true that traditional Chinese books, as those of most pre-
modern societies (including the West), were published without
indexes. As Teng and Biggerstaff put it, "The ideal of the old-
fashioned Chinese scholar was to know his books by heart and to
carry a sort of index in his head." However, separate indexes to
major collections were sometimes compiled by imperial decree.

Also, of course, even in pre-modern times there had to be indexes
to dictionaries, or schemes by which dictionaries were arranged.
If you read the modern prefaces to dictionaries, you'll find all
you need to know about the method used for arrangement of charac
ters and phrases. The most common of these have already been dis-
cussed on CCNET-L:

*The 214 K'ang-hsi radicals (bu4shou3),
*Total number of strokes,
*Stroke type or shape,

(and in this century:)
*Four-corner and its variants,
*Pinyin or other pronouncing schemes,
*A modified set of radicals used in mainland China (not always
consistently), e.g. the set of 282 radicals in the *Cihai* pub-
lished in the late 1970's.

Usually characters grouped by radical (bu4shou3) are further sub-
divided by number of remaining strokes, then by shape of the
first stroke. Other subdivision systems are used by other primary
schemes.

There are deficiencies, or inconsistency of application, is
nearly every scheme. Not everyone counts strokes with the same
result. Not everyone selects the "radical" actually used by a
dictionary for a particular character. Users of the four-corner
system are notoriously inaccurate, but it has devoted followers.
Speakers of different dialects can't always produce the diction-
ary pronunciation of a character, or romanize it correctly by
pinyin or other scheme. If tones are used to subdivide sounds,
the (non-Beijing native) user may make further errors. But it
could get worse:

*The P'ei-wen yun-fu of 1711 arranged phrases and allusions by
the rhyme of the last character in the phrase. (Some rhyming dic-
tionaries are arranged by the rhyme of the first character of the
phrase, rather than the last character.) Since the "rhyme" is
based on sound, and sound changed over time, the presumed sound
of an arbitrary period was assigned to each character; even if
the character's pronunciation changed, the rhyme class was
artificially preserved. So, to use the P'ei-wen yun-fu today
requires looking up the rhyme in another dictionary first.
The richness of the results makes it worth all the trouble.

During the 1930's a group of Sinologists at Yenching University
(including William Hung and Nieh Ch'ung-ch'i) carried out a mas-
sive project to index important Chinese works. The Harvard-
Yenching Institute Sinological Index Series uses the *kuei-hsieh*
system to convert characters into numbers with minimal duplica-
tion; additional stroke-count and romanization indexes are also
provided.

During the Second Sino-Japanese War, Nieh Ch'ung-ch'i also
prepared indexes, arranged by stroke count, for the Universite de
Paris, Centre d'etudes sinologique de Pekin.

Before re-inventing the wheel, it might be a good idea to look at
some of these indexes, as well as other reference tools in the
reference section of the Chinese collection in the nearest large
university library. A list of some major indexes can be found in
Teng Ssu-yu and Knight Biggerstaff's *Annotated Bibliography of
Selected Chinese Reference Works* (Harvard U. Press).

Inputting is essentially irrelevant to whatever indexing system
is selected. Multiple inputting schemes can be keyed to whatever
index number is assigned to each character.

Electronically speaking, frequency order may be most efficient
for searching algorithms. But if the index itself is going to be
viewed by human eyes, one of the ordering schemes already in use
may serve quite nicely.
        Dorothy Day, Indiana University
        DAY@IUBACS

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Fri May 18 00:58:42 1990
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Date:         Thu, 17 May 90 13:22:34 CDT
Reply-To: GR4486%SIUCVMB@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: GR4486%SIUCVMB.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
Subject:      Indexing...
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Most of the translated classics   have indexes in Chinese.  For example, the
whole collection of Marx & Engels and those of Hegel or Adam Smith, etc.

The Indexes are mostly organized by alphabet (ABCD..., not bo po mo fe).  Then
under each major entry, there are sublevels of indexes also in alphabetical
order.   Indexes are put into categories such as Author Index, Book Index and
Periodical Index or Historical Events/Biographies Index, etc.  I believe
they are based on the original publications.

To what I am aware of, most Chinese software packages allow users to switch
between Chinese and Roman mode.  If that's the case, indexing in alphabetical
order by pinyin should be a widely acceptable way.

JZS

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Fri May 18 01:18:20 1990
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Date:         Thu, 17 May 90 13:54:00 EST
Reply-To: Huijie <CHENH%IUBACS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Huijie <CHENH%IUBACS.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      RE: A little history on indexing...
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Hi, Netters,

Dorothy made a very reliable account on the Chinese indexing history.
The following methods are listed:

>*The 214 K'ang-hsi radicals (bu4shou3),
>*Total number of strokes,
>*Stroke type or shape,
>(and in this century:)
>*Four-corner and its variants,
>*Pinyin or other pronouncing schemes,
>*A modified set of radicals used in mainland China (not always
>consistently), e.g. the set of 282 radicals in the *Cihai* pub-
>lished in the late 1970's.
>*The P'ei-wen yun-fu of 1711 arranged phrases and allusions by
>the rhyme of the last character in the phrase.
> The Harvard-
>Yenching Institute Sinological Index Series uses the *kuei-hsieh*
>system to convert characters into numbers with minimal duplica-
>tion; additional stroke-count and romanization indexes are also
>provided.
>During the Second Sino-Japanese War, Nieh Ch'ung-ch'i also
>prepared indexes, arranged by stroke count, for the Universite de
>Paris, Centre d'etudes sinologique de Pekin.
>Before re-inventing the wheel, it might be a good idea to look at
>some of these indexes, as well as other reference tools in the
>reference section of the Chinese collection in the nearest large
>university library. A list of some major indexes can be found in
>Teng Ssu-yu and Knight Biggerstaff's *Annotated Bibliography of
>Selected Chinese Reference Works* (Harvard U. Press).

I worked in Chinese Library for a while, and I have accessed to all
indeces mentioned above.  One of my observations is that 99% of those
indeces has more than one index approach.  The main text may be
arrange in a order, and then another one or more access approaches
are attached.  If the original work had no additional index at all,
the decent people would add some in, especially those book re-published
in this century.  Why, it is because no single one index approach can
take place of others so far.

Therefore, I would like to make a suggestion to those are working in the
frontier of Chinese computing system design and programming.  Will that
be possible to produce more than one access approach to the text index?
I think that using computer will be much easily to implement that than
manual.  Double (or triple) indeces in the end of text may add a few
pages, however, it is much convinient for different readers.  Plus, mult-
index is not my invention.  You can find some English books have "Name
Index", "Subject Index".

The 15th version Encyclopedia of Britanica used the "index to index"
apporach.  We may also design a primary index and then add some supplimental
indeces (Jian3 Zi4) to it.

Will that be possible?  Will that be easier than selecting ONE index
method only?

Huijie

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Fri May 18 01:53:34 1990
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Date:         Thu, 17 May 90 20:54:56 -0400
Reply-To: "Chunqing N. Cheng" <CNCST3%PITTUNIX@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: "Chunqing N. Cheng" <CNCST3%PITTUNIX.BITNET@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      Chinese Indexing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

Here is my opinion on index order:

1.   Based on Pinyin (of course, on the order of tones),
2.   If Tong-Yin-Zi, based on GB order
3.   If multiple sounds, use multiple entry.

The problem based on number of strokes is too old to justify.  One has
to count the number of strokes to find an index entry. If you did not
count it right, even other people cannot be sure whether they can help
you.  But with Pinyin, it is easy to locate without counting.  If your
pronounciation is not right, other people usually can tell you right
away how it should be spelled.

The second option is not so straight forward in that literally, it may
violate the rule by the number of strokes.  But look, how often that
might be? Once one finds the right Pinyin, it should be easy to move
down and up to find the right character, and I do not think it takes
longer than you to count the number of strokes in general.

The advantage of this method is any people can right something and merge
them since the standard is so tight, there is no other option left...

Do I count all the  cases?  Please point out if I did not.


Chunqing Cheng

From @pucc.princeton.edu:wan%pollux.usc.edu@usc.edu Fri May 18 11:11:53 1990
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Date: Fri, 18 May 90 08:11:30 PDT
From: wan%pollux.usc.edu@usc.edu (Qiang Wan)
Message-Id: <9005181511.AA03806@pollux.usc.edu>
To: CCNET-L@uga, yjj%CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU%pucc.PRINCETON.EDU@usc.edu
Subject: RE: Chinese Indexing
Status: RO

>From: Yuan Jiang <yjj%CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU%pucc.PRINCETON.EDU@usc.edu>
>Subject:      RE: Chinese Indexing
>Comments: To: SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu


>...  Most of the indices use sound, PinYin, as the
>main scheme.  The next level seems to be confusing.  It seems that somethimes
>they are in sequence of appearence, sometimes there is no order.

I believe that if you look closely, there is yet another "sub" indexing
system that didn't get mentioned in previous CCNET surveys. It is the
"first stroke" sequence. Characters are sorted by their first strokes
in the order of:
dian3 (`) heng2 (-) shu4 (|) pie3 (/) na4 (\) zhe2 (7)
This method is popular in mainland China, and is mainly used as a
sub indexing system for Pinyin. If you have a Chinese-English dictionary
published in mainland China, chances are it is using this system for
sequencing Tong2-Yin1 Zi4.

wan qiang

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Fri May 18 17:41:04 1990
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Date:         Fri, 18 May 90 09:42:39 PDT
Reply-To: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: zhang qing <qing%tantalum.cchem.berkeley.edu%UCBVAX.BERKELEY.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      INDEXing
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

        I support the proposal of Cheng Chunqing. Except on multiple entry.
Usually, the multiple sounds of the same character have different meanings.
For a specific meaning, the entry is unique.

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Mon Jul  8 14:29:33 1991
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Date:         Mon, 8 Jul 1991 11:15:25 PDT
Reply-To: terryk%MICROSOFT.COM@uga.cc.uga.edu
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: terryk%MICROSOFT.COM@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject:      sorting Chinese string
Comments: To: ccnet-l@uga.cc.uga.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@UGA>
Status: RO

Hi Net Reader,

I just wonder what is the rule for sorting Chinese string? In English,
you sorting the string by the order of the english letter. In
Chinese, I think it maybe sort by the number of strokes in the character.
But how can I find out the number of stroke in a given character?

Meanwhile, is there any OCR chinese software out there? I am thinking
of write one. However, I need a lot of reference about the latest
development on OCR technology. Can anybody give me a list of reference
so I can look it up?

Thanks.

Terence Kwan

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Fri Apr  3 10:25:25 1992
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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1992 10:19:40 EST
Reply-To: Ned Walsh <walsh@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Ned Walsh <walsh@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Most widely used Chinese-English dictionaries?
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

Ah, finally a question I can answer.

The most popular Chinese-English dictionaries besides Han-Ying cidian
are:

1. R.H. Mathews' Chinese-English Dictionary

2. Liang Shih-ch'iu's Tsui-hsin shih-yung Han-Ying tz'u-tien (Zuixin
   shiyong Han-Ying cidian) [A New Practical Chinese-English Dictionary]

I started an index for #2 but got interrupted by schoolwork.  That
dictionary is in radical/stroke order, with the romanization printed
beside each character, so I simply modified Urs Widmer's recently
posted ETen radical/stroke phrase box into a radical/stroke/pinyin
phrase box and started typing a list of the characters in the
dictionary.  I found there were very few collisions and I could just
type away without looking up at the screen too often.  I was up to
entry #2908 (out of 7331) when I stopped.  I'd be happy to turn it
over to anyone who wants to continue it.  What I've already typed needs
proofing, and I've ignored the variant characters printed in little
type beside the main entries--they'll have to be added, too.

Both dictionaries are ideal for computer indexing since they
sequentially number their entries.  The Han-Ying cidian does not
number its entries; an index would have to be to page and column,
which is useful but not as elegant as a numbered index.

We could also use indexes to the character ID numbers in Zhongwen da
cidian and Morohashi dai Kan-Wa jiten.  I have a JIS-based hypercard
stack from the International Research Institute for Zen Buddhism in
Kyoto which gives Morohashi volume/page references for all the JIS
characters (don't know why they didn't just give the specific
character numbers), as well as Nelson's Japanese-English Kanji
Dictionary numbers.  I can do more with those when we've got a way to
convert from JIS to a Chinese code.

/Ned

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Sat Apr  4 18:21:33 1992
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Date:         Sat, 4 Apr 1992 17:54:40 EST
Reply-To: Avron Boretz <71052.1447@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Avron Boretz <71052.1447@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Entry methods, etc
Comments: To: ccnet-l@uga.cc.uga.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

I have two or three questions for y'all, so please bear with my
verbosity!

1) I noticed that there are people putting together character
indexes/databases -- what's actually available at the moment for
use with existing Eten entry systems?

2) Speaking of entry systems -- does anyone know about
alternative entry systems, preferably pin-yin-based, for Eten?
Chinese Windows?

3) I do use Chinese Windows, and there are Chinese soft fonts for
it (indirect reply to someone's earlier question).  However, I
would like to know about other available fonts, as well as the
answer to that person's question, namely, is there any way to
integrate such fonts with Adobe Type Manager.  I'm using the
Microsoft version of CWIN, by the way, not the Chinese overlay
from TCA, and it's an excellent program, except for character
entry.

4) Finally, a very elementary query: most of the software
discussed on this conference is completely alien and unknown to
me -- I assume that much of it is PRC-developed for use on
mainframes  or UNIX servers?  I would like to know what software
there is for PCs floating out there, but there doesn't seem to be
a general index -- or have I missed something?  Please advise!

Avron Boretz (Alias Bai An-rui)

xhgy@cornella
xhgy@cornella.cit.cornell.edu

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Fri Jun 19 03:47:46 1992
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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1992 09:30:19 MSZ
Reply-To: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Subject:      Electronic Index to Chinese-To-Target-Language Dictionaries
Comments: To: CCNET-L <unido!CCNET-L@relay.EU.net>
Comments: cc: Zhongwen Mailing List <unido!zhongwen@relay.EU.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

------------------------------------------------------------
			C H i n D E X

		   the Electronic Index to
	  "Das Neue Chinesisch-Deutsche Woerterbuch"
       ("A Chinese-English Dictionary" in preparation!)
			  by H. Bohn

	       (Demo version available on ftp!)
------------------------------------------------------------

CHinDEX - and looking up Chinese characters becomes a plaesure!


* Highly optimized radical index with graphical user interface,
  ordering of radicals according to radical productivity,
  multiple indexing of characters and consideration of character
  lookup frequencies!

* Optimized Pinyin index. You forgot the correct tone? No problem!

* Simplified four corner index - nothing is faster!

* Stroke index of characters hard to identify.

* In the full version, as the result of the lookup all pronun-
  ciations and corresponding page number(s) of the selected
  character in the dictionary are given! (At present German
  version only!)

* Change lookup method with a single mouse click!

* Favourite lookup method can be preset!

* All character lists are ordering dynamically according to
  individual lookup frequency!

* Can be used both as program and desk accessory! Dictionary
  lookup from within your word processor!

* English version (index to "A Chinese-English dictionary",
  Beijing: Shangwu yinshuguan, 1985) in preparation (80% of the
  Data entered!). Indexes to other special dictionaries planned!

Hardware requirements:

  ATARI ST with monochrome monitor (SM 124)
  and at least 1 MB of RAM. Hard disc recommended.

  (The program should also run on STEs and TTs but I haven't
  tried. If you happen to own a STE or TT I would be glad
  to hear about whether the program runs or not!)

A demo version is available via ftp at:

  kth.se (130.237.72.201) in the directory "CJK/atari/CHINDEX"


Have fun!

    Hartmut

--
Hartmut Bohn       ,'|_____,    /   ---,  |  Computerlinguistik / Sinologie
Klemensstr. 13    /| |  |  |  -/--- __/_  |        Universitaet Trier
5500 Trier Ruwer   |  / | \    \ /   |    |    Internet: bohn@utrurt.uucp
Germany            |   \|      /\   \/    o   UUCP:  ...!unido!utrurt!bohn

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Wed Jul  1 06:50:56 1992
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Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1992 12:43:12 MSZ
Reply-To: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Subject:      CHinDEX: English version now available!
Comments: To: CCNET-L <unido!CCNET-L@relay.EU.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

Hello all!

The English version of CHinDEX is now available! It gives the
exact page number(s) of any looked-up characters in "A Chinese-
English Dictionary", Beijing: Shangwu yinshuguan, 1985.

For further information contact the author at:
	   "bohn@utrurt.uucp"
	or "...!unido!utrurt!bohn"
	or "bohn%utrurt@unido.informatik.uni-dortmund.de"


------------------------------------------------------------
			C H i n D E X

		   the Electronic Index to
	       "A Chinese-English Dictionary"
			     and
	  "Das Neue Chinesisch-Deutsche Woerterbuch"
		       by Hartmut Bohn

	       (Demo version available on ftp!)
------------------------------------------------------------

CHinDEX - and looking up Chinese characters becomes a pleasure!


* The ideal tool for people who have to do a large quantity of
  translation from Chinese to English or German!

* Highly optimized radical index with graphical user interface,
  ordering of radicals according to radical productivity,
  multiple indexing of characters and consideration of character
  lookup frequencies!

* Optimized Pinyin index. You forgot the correct tone? No problem!

* Simplified four corner index - nothing is faster!

* Stroke index of characters hard to identify.

* In the full version, as the result of the lookup all pronun-
  ciations and corresponding page number(s) of the selected
  character in the dictionary are given!

* Change lookup method with a single mouse click!

* Favourite lookup method can be preset!

* All character lists are ordering dynamically according to
  individual lookup frequency!

* Can be used both as program and desk accessory! Dictionary
  lookup from within your word processor!

* Indexes to other special dictionaries planned!

Hardware requirements:

  ATARI ST/STE with monochrome monitor (SM 124)
  and at least 1 MB of RAM. Hard disc recommended.

A demo version is available via ftp at:

  kth.se (130.237.72.201) in the directory "CJK/atari/CHINDEX"



--
Hartmut Bohn       ,'|_____,    /   ---,  |  Computerlinguistik / Sinologie
Klemensstr. 13    /| |  |  |  -/--- __/_  |        Universitaet Trier
5500 Trier Ruwer   |  / | \    \ /   |    |    Internet: bohn@utrurt.uucp
Germany            |   \|      /\   \/    o   UUCP:  ...!unido!utrurt!bohn

From @cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu:CCNET-L@UGA.BITNET Wed May 16 21:15:27 1990
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Date:         Wed, 16 May 90 21:06:58 EDT
Reply-To: Yuan Jiang <yjj%CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
From: Yuan Jiang <yjj%CTR.COLUMBIA.EDU@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu>
Subject:      RE: Chinese Indexing
Comments: To: SPO_JWANG2%STEVENS@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga>
Status: RO

I took a look of the Chinese books in ou library (from mainland mostly).  There
is no index in old books.  Couple of them use number of radicals.  Apparently
this scheme will not lead to a good standard because the problem of simplified
and traditional characters.  Most of the indices use sound, PinYin, as the main
scheme.  The next level seems to be confusing.  It seems that somethimes they
are in sequence of appearence, sometimes there is no order.

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Sun Apr 14 05:51:14 1991
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Date:         Sun, 14 Apr 91 03:42:36 MDT
Reply-To: mleisher%NMSU.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: mleisher%NMSU.EDU@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject:      Phrase list available
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@UGA>
Status: RO

One of the recent projects here at the Computing Research Labs was a
machine translation system that translates between Chinese, English,
German, Japanese, and Spanish.

One of the MT researchers, Dr. Jin Wanying, has input a number of
Chinese phrases for the Chinese lexicon part of the MT system.

The current phrase list, in 8-bit GB format is now available from our
anonymous ftp site.  The phrase list is formatted like this:

<Pinyin> <GB> ...

(Pinyin followed by a space, followed by a space separated list of
8-bit GB format phrases)

One word of warning: the Pinyin does not have tone numbers.  I will be
generating another list with tone numbers, and a Big5 list later next
week.

The list currently has about 3300 phrases, some of them are from the
ChTeX CiDian file, but most of them entered by Dr. Jin, and when we
finish with the basic Chinese lexicon, we should have about 10,000 to
12,000 phrases available.

If anyone would like to provide more entries to add to the list, I
would really like a copy!  We have an incoming/ directory if you want
to supply additions by anonymous ftp, or you can send me email.

crl.nmsu.edu:pub/chinese/gb-phrase-list.Z  [128.123.1.14]

(Our incoming directory)
crl.nmsu.edu:incoming/

** Don't forget to ftp in binary mode! **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mleisher@nmsu.edu                      "I laughed.
Mark Leisher                                I cried.
Computing Research Lab                          I fell down.
New Mexico State University                        It changed my life."
Las Cruces, NM                     - Rich [Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille]

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Mon Apr 15 04:03:22 1991
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Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 91 09:53:33 +0200
Reply-To: Lars-Erik Fredriksson <mrfung%NADA.KTH.SE@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L%UGA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Lars-Erik Fredriksson <mrfung%NADA.KTH.SE@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: Phrase list available
Comments: To: mleisher@NMSU.EDU
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@UGA>
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sun,
              14 Apr 91 03:42:36 MST. <9104140951.AA05270@nada.kth.se>
Status: RO

Hi Mark and others,

I have been working for a long period of time with inputmethods and I guess
the best way to go is to make all of it available in the public domain. I guess
I have about +10.000 cihui inputted and I am using it aswell as swveral
sinologues around europe ( I gave away testversions of it ) I use it with
Ed Lai's beautiful cihui input method for the mac but I guess the format
could be tweaked to be used in Yitien or BYX or under X. I guess all of the
vocab is not general nad I think it will only be meaningful to put this
up in a way that additions can be made for all to use in a good way. I insist
that tones should be there and it is up to the input-method to be smart enough
to disregard from them when they are not supplied. I also think that any
substantial addition should be made stating the sources or the authority
whereupon it was based ( i.e. a specialized dictionary or : I really know
a lot of expressions from the underworld and liumangs of Beijing so this is
based on all I know about that, or something ... ;-) The thing I have that
I could think would be interesting for most people is based on a frequency
study of cihui used in chinese educational material called:

	Hanyu cihui de tongji yu fenxi.
by:

	/ Beijing yuyan xueyuan yuyan jiaoxue yanjiusuo, bian. - Beijing :
	Waiyu jiaoxue yu yanjiu chubanshe, 1985. - 1079 p.

If there is an interest for this I will be putting it up for anonymous
FTP so tell me what you think about it. I also have some specialized
wordlists but first things first because I don't think it is so useful
to do this if we cannot make additions in a more useful and organized way

*********************************************************************
* Lars E Fredriksson,   |     Email:EUNET: mrfung@nada.kth.se.      *
* Far Eastern Library   |       Telephone: Int + 46 8 666 43 94     *
* Box 163 58            | or office modem: Int + 46 8 620 45 43     *
* S-103 27 STOCKHOLM    |         or home: Int + 46 8 97 28 72      *
* SWEDEN                |   or home modem: Int + 46 8 646 15 60     *
*********************************************************************
* Be the first to support UNICODE in your neighbourhood kill ASCII  *
*********************************************************************

From CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu Thu Nov 12 05:48:47 1992
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 11:37:18 MEZ
Reply-To: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Hartmut Bohn <utrurt!bohn@RELAY.EU.NET>
Subject:      Machine readable data about Chinese Script/Text?
Comments: To: "(CCNET-L)" <unido!CCNET-L@relay.EU.net>
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

Dear netters,

As I plan to do quantitative analyses of various aspects of
Chinese script and language, I wonder whether there is some
machine readable data on Chinese available from somewhere.

I already entered all GB characters (with Quwei-Code as key)
and all their pronunciations (Pinyin with tones), according
to Hanzi Shuxing Zidian. I only have to convert this file
into some database format.

Also, somebody scanned the character frequency list from
HZSXCD, but the character codes still have to be entered.

I am looking for the following data:

- Stroke number for every GB character (or BIG5 character).

- Stroke numbers of traditional forms of GB characters.

- Grapheme number and number of strokes of each grapheme for
  every GB character.

- Word lists with their frequency.

- Modern Chinese text in GB code (I know about and have access to
  Huaxia Wenzhai), preferably segmented into words.
		   -------------------------------
- A few Classical texts in either GB or BIG5 code.

- etc. ....

Does anybody have such data and is willing to share?

	Hartmut
--
Hartmut Bohn, M.A.   ,'|_____,    /   ---, |  Computerlinguistik / Sinologie
Walramsneustr. WG   /| |  |  |  -/--- __/_ |        Universitaet Trier
5500 Trier           |  / | \    \ /   |   |    Internet: bohn@utrurt.uucp
Germany              |   \|      /\   \/   o   UUCP:  ...!unido!utrurt!bohn
    "Now I lay me down to sleep / Try to count electric sheep."(Marvin)

From @UGA.CC.UGA.EDU:owner-ccnet-l@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Thu Jun  3 17:20:14 1993
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Date:         Thu, 3 Jun 1993 17:55:07 -0400
Reply-To: Thomas Bartlett <BARTLETT%HUSC.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Thomas Bartlett <BARTLETT%HUSC.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: Radical numbering
Comments: To: Peter V Henstock <henstock@ECN.PURDUE.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: RO

The system of radicals used in Nelson's dictionary is basically a revision
of the so-called K'ang-hsi system of 214 radicals established in the early
18th century in China.  It has been the standard in the Sinographic world
until the mid 20th century.  The system you have seen on software may be
the unrevised 214 radicals of the K'ang-hsi system or it may be one of the
numerous revisions of that system which have been produced in China since
the 1950's.  The unrevised K'ang-hsi system is used in the well-known
"A Chinese-English Dictionary" originally compiled by Mathews.  It is also
used in Liang Shih-ch'iu's "Practical Chinese-English Dictionary",
published in Taiwan.  If you can find a copy of Walter Simon's out of
print "Beginner's Chinese-English Dictionary", you will see an
introductory chapter in which he sets forth a very useful system of
mnemonic words which can be used to memorize the 214 radicals in sequence.
No Chinese (or almost no Chinese) ever does that, but for the foreign
learner it can be a very useful skill.  As you know from your experience
with Nelson's, being able to move quickly and confidently around a
Sinographic dictionary is a great aid to effective learning.  One revision
of the radical system that has gained currency is the one used in Xin Hua
Zi Dian, the small blue, plastic-covered pocket size dictionary of
simplified single characters, which essentially is a standard for the
reformed Chinese script used in China since about 1960.  This revised system
contains about 180 radicals.  The "Chinese-English Dictionary" published in
Beijing in about 1980 also has a revised system of simplified radicals,
perhaps the same as, or only slightly different from, the one in Xin Hua Zi
Dian.  Good luck in your lexicographic wanderings.  Let us know what you
find.

Tom Bartlett

On Thu, 3 Jun 1993, Peter V Henstock wrote:

> Just a question about radical numbering.
> Several software packages seem to be using a particular radical
> numbering system.  I am familiar with the Japanese numbering system
> found in the Nelson dictionary.  Where can I find the radical
> numbering system for Chinese?
>
> --Peter
>
> henstock@ecn.purdue.edu

From @UGA.CC.UGA.EDU:owner-ccnet-l@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Fri Jul 15 07:03:36 1994
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Date:         Fri, 15 Jul 1994 00:53:51 MYT
Reply-To: Ng Liang Shing <liang@HSNG.PL.MY>
Sender: Chinese Computing Network <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
From: Ng Liang Shing <liang@HSNG.PL.MY>
Subject:      Re: count.bas
Comments: To: James Hammons <hammons@crl.com>
Comments: cc: Chinese Computing Network <ccnet-l@uga.cc.uga.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list CCNET-L <CCNET-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Status: R

Reply to James

> Also:  I am looking for a word frequency list, can you help?

1. You can use COUNT.BAS to generate your own list.
2. There is a dictionary called 'Hanzi Xinxi Zidian' (Dictionary of Chinese
Character Information). I can't remember the publisher. I bought one in London
for 16 quid. It list many types of data concerning modern processing of
Chinese character. Is a must have for Chinese Computing. Hard cover, blue
colour, golden character. 2 inches thick.

>        In addition I am searching for the file BIGWORD.BOX.

What is it?



Yours,
Liangsheng Wu


--
Ng Liang Shing            |   This is an Internet node host inside
Sungai Petani, Malaysia   |   an old 286.  A few years back, this place
liang@hsng.pl.my          |   was not more than a small town.

