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Comment:  IFCSS Council Public Auditing System
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From: dong@fuzzy.umd.edu (priv=-10 D.C.)
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Subject: [fwd] from Mu Liyue
Status: RO

>From mu@sequoia.lle.rochester.edu  Thu Jan 20 01:55:22 1994
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 01:55:11 EST
From: Liyue Mu <mu@sequoia.lle.rochester.edu>
Message-Id: <9401200655.AA01613@sequoia.lle.rochester.edu>
To: dong
Subject: Hot Dogs
Status: R

Hi, Chen Dong,

Could you do me a favor by forwarding the following on the Council
net?

Thanks you very much.

Liyue

*************************************************************************

     With so much interesting, I have read all the messages regarding
the issues of the FC open letter and the on coming council email meeting.
I feel very uneasy that some of our council colleagues are totally in love
of so called in-nest struggling, or Wo1 Li3 Dou4. Is that the image of
our beloved IFCSS? Is that the first step of the professionalizing of the
Council operation?

    Here, I'd like to share some of my personal points about these "Hot
Dogs":

    (1) THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HQ, SVC AND THE COUNCIL. To my
understanding, this relationship should be COOPERATION. Back to the
IFCSS short history, I find the IFCSS can serve the CSS community
most only when the "Big Three" was in a healthy constructive cooperation.
I guess all the VCs agree with at this point. IFCSS philosophy is NOT 
struggling philosophy. 

       Now, the question is how can we build up a constructive relationship
within the IFCSS? The answer is UNDERSTANDING. A week ago, FC posted an 
open letter upon the HQ financial saturation, let's assume all the numbers
in that open letter are the FACTS, but, may I ask a question: Are these 
only the partial facts, or the complete facts ? If the open letter gave
us incomplete HQ financial records, I suggest the FC retreat all its 
offensive accuses to the HQ and its staffs, and write another open letter
to apology to CSS for its mistakes. If FC's numbers is complete and 
correct, some of the HQ staffs should in a law suit, and the FC's work
will be appreciated by the CSS. I called one of the FC member a week ago
about the open letter, I asked him: do you have any idea how much money
the HQ spend a year usually? He said he had no idea. So, I think the FC
has NO UNDERSTANDING at all to HQ at least on IFCSS financial operation.
I hope every thing should be clear on the Feb Round-table meeting.

       Well, besides the not-understanding, I feel so bad about some 
personal attacks in these open letter debates. Before all the facts
be cleared, DO NOT accuse anybody personally. In a message I read
few days ago, as for my feeling, Treasure Jiang Zhui Hong was almost
accused to be a criminal upon the unconfirmed data. This makes me recall 
"the Great Culture Revolution". Is that the "China style professionalism" 
of our Council?

     (2) Focus on the important issues which the most CSS concern. The
IFCSS president is in China now, this is a historical contact between
the IFCSS and the Chinese government, I guess many of our CSS are in
deep concern on this event. If the council member can really reflect
the local CSS opinions, could the council members collect their local
CSS concerns for the HQ, in order the HQ can really image our CSS's
demands to the Chinese government. 

        Up to this point, I strongly support Chenjian and other VC's
suggestion, spend out time on the discussion of the future of IFCSS,
I personally do not like IFCSS guys in a hot "Wo1 Li3 Do4" (in-nest
struggling).

    (3) Some guys talking about "politics" in their debates. To my
knowledge, running politics is for the POWER, it should follow
rules. If anyone does not involve in the power, not follow rules, 
he is no more than a journalist, not a politician.


Thanks for your reading,

Liyue Mu

          __                                         Mail address:
   ______/ /301-405-5025(O)____301-314-9437(fax)     Dong Chen
  / ____/ /_  ___  ___    / __ \____  ___  ____(C)   LPR, Univ. of Maryland
 / /   / __ \/ _ \/ _ \  / / / / __ \/ _ \/ __ \     College Park, MD 20742
/ /___/ / / /  __/ // / / /_/ / /_/ / // / /_/ / Email: dong@umiacs.umd.edu
\____/_/ /_/\___/_//_/ /_____/\____/_//_/\__  /  "Do you know why communist
 __________________________________________/ /    can not be a good C++
/___________________________________________/     programer ?"   --D.C.



From council-l@ifcss.org Thu Jan 20 11:55:05 1994
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Comment:  IFCSS Council Public Auditing System
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From: WANG  YU RAYMOND <wangy@rintintin.Colorado.EDU>
To: Multiple recipients of list <council-l@ifcss.org>
Subject: [discussion] Wang Yu
Status: RO

Dear Council Members:

Here are several points That I would like to make:

1)  The big issue right now is to settle the dispute over the financial 
    situation of the HQ.  Given today's condition, seems like the only
    way to do that is to hire a professional CPA to do it.  Let's make
    decision on which CPA to hire, set up a time table to work with, and 
    make our conclusion based on the report from CPA.  Let's focus our
    debate on this issue, not to speculate the financial operation on
    our own.  Quite frankly, once we hire a CPA, this financial issue
    is pretty much out of the Council's hands.  Let's wait for the report. 

    FC had claimed all along that they don't have complete info., I think
    it is safe to say neither do other council members.  So there is not
    much point to argue about HQ's finacial situation.

2)  If we decided to hire a CPA, there will be a issue of coordinating 
    their auditing/book-keeping (sorry for my inadequate vocabulary in
    this area) with the Council.  Seems that fitts well with FC's 
    function.  On the other hand, the sole purpose of the IT seems perish
    once we hire a CPA.  Regarding Mr. Cheng Dong's resolution on 
    deactivating the FC, I recommand the following changes:
    a) Dismiss the IT.
    b) Expand FC to include new Council member(s) from third party(so to 
       speak). 
    c) FC will be coordinating CPA with the Council. 
    If Mr. Cheng dissagree with me, I would like to rephrase the above
    points and propose it as a resulution. 

3)  My personal belief is: if we leave a subcommittee intact, we have to
    let it function fully.  However, given the FC's behavior on the Open
    Letter issue, I think it is necessary to define the power of a subcom.
    (FC in this case) more specifically, restrain it if needed.  The OL
    seems to be intended for public without the knowledge of the Council,
    and that is not following the rule.  I agree with Mr. Cheng Dong's
    resolution on defining the function of subcom.  Particularly, I want
    to propose restrains on FC's power in dealing with the public.  No
    more this kind of OL signed by FC yet without the knowledge and 
    confidence of the Council.

4)  Through out the course of the issue, emotion has played a role that
    is disproportional to its usefulness.  Let's try to be more rational.
    Let's try to down play the feeling of "If I don't go to hell, who does?"
    If you think you are in this thing, you are in this with other people.
    We are all in this togather.  Try not to throw away your confidence
    in your collegues.  Because if you do, so would they.  Like confidence
    in other people, rule is also a double edged swaord. If you follow
    it, you have a firm ground.  But if you decided to get off the track,
    it will hurt you.  Give the system a chance, try to solve disbute in
    the system.  Besides, if you don't trust the system, what is the point 
    to stay in it?  This is the chance and place to speak, by all means
    speak up and don't say :"I am not saying anything."

5)  As you might know, I am not involved in the decition making for most
    part of the issue.  But if it is true that the Council formed the FC
    with its full confidence, if it is true that the Council adopted the
    resolution to audit HQ's finacial activity, if it is true that the FC
    formed IT with the knowledge of the Council, for peace's sake, stand
    behind the decisions.  There is not much to it.  If the Council decides
    to change them, so be it.  But before it does, what's the ground for
    accusing those decisions?
    
6)  People are eager to jump up and accuse the HQ of bad book-keepin, how
    is it with the Council?  I have seen members argue about whether the
    Council did this or that.  Maybe we can release the record/log (if
    we have one) to members at least and get the facts straighten out.
    Seems everybody has a version of the story.  It is not worth the trouble
    to argue about them.  Get the facts out.  Don't throw jabs at each 
    other like that. 


Thats all, folks.  Thanks.

Wang Yu (signed)
Jan. 20, 1994


From DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov  Thu Jan 20 13:58:23 1994
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Date: 20 Jan 1994 13:57:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov
Subject: Council conference
To: council-l@ifcss.org, council-wn@ifcss.org
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Liqun,

Please let us know your decision about the way of the Council conference
so that the current confusing situation could be clarified. 

If it will be teleconference, what should we do to prepare for it.

If you want re-start the email conference, please let us know whether 
we still need to sign on or the previous presence in the network
was already automatically counted. I would suggest Chen Dong to 
post the agenda and rules and deadlines (with needed modifications)
again so that those who missed some messages can get a clear idea.

It is unfortunate that the proposed email conference wasn't able to
open as planned. I would say it is mainly because of miscommunications
and partly from the network accident. However, let's still keep calm
and keep a good atmosphere in the Council for positive discussions.
Although some people outside the Council has used the word "boycutt"
to criticize some Council members, I believe that's not the situation.

I hope, after the Council Chair decide which way to go, all of my
Colleagues in the Council will act promptly to take part in the
conference. 


Yungui

From DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov  Thu Jan 20 14:04:04 1994
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From: DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov
Subject: FWD: RE: the rules
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>From:	IN%"ZHANG@utkvx.utk.edu" 20-JAN-1994 13:49:06.42
To:	IN%"DING@VAXLD.AMESLAB.GOV"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: the Rules

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>From: ZHANG@utkvx.utk.edu
Subject: RE: the Rules
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Dear Mr. Ding:

Would you please FWD this msg to council-net (if you see it fit) ?

Thanks.

-----------

>As a council member, I expressed my unsatisfaction of some of their
>actions. However, as I pointed out yesterday, I did not find any direct
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>rule violentions of HQ's behavior. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This kind of puzzled me, Mr. Dong. In my view, HQ did so "violently",
"directly" and *brazenly* in the two of the most important episodes (again, 
in my view) in the whole IT event: 

	a. HQ refused to receive (openly announced) the IT which, as a 
	   representive of council, can only be abolished by council
	   or SVC as I know; 

	b. HQ refused to open some of its financial records (also 
	   openly stated, --- in a number of occasions, e.g., the 
	   treasurer's "Q & A", --- don't tell me that it is her 
	   *personal* article), knowing that it has to "provide 
	   all the financial documents upon receiving the written 
	   request of IT" (quote the HQ quoted rule).


I have no problem that HQ's disagreement to the formation of the Council-IT,
and its appeal to SVC as well. What I have a *serious* problem with is HQ's 
ability to take the above actions prior to the conclusion of SVC or Council.

>Sure, we know Bai Yan helped, as I know other people helped also.
               ^^^^^^^
>Did we have the procedure or not ?
                 ^^^^^^^^^

This puzzled me even worse, because:

	a. It looks to me the only mistake of Bai Yan is that he naively 
	   trusted you guys', --- your calls for "participation", not just 
	   the general ones you have been making ever since you came on 
	   board, but the particular one this time for joining the IT.

	b. The IT inclusion of him was never a problem until its inspection
	   went beyond the *allowance*, --- as far as I see it on your net.


And now, since there is this thing, everyone (including SVC as in its 
"questionaire") is looking for "procedure", questioning whether there 
is a resolution in which FC is "authorized" to hire BY. It sounded good, 
and it demonstrated once more the "democratic" nature of our IFCSS. But
wait a minute, isn't it logically true that you should look up just the 
opposite, i.e., whether FC is forbiden to hire Bai Yan (though no pay ??), 
because, unless that happened, it means that it is FC's right to do so in
conducting its IT business ????? Isn't it also natural to wonder why very
few of you questioned about the "procedure" for HQ to refuse IT, assuming
that all of you guys are intelligent and fair-minded ??


>Dong,

Jing Zhang
Univ of TN

P.S. ---

One more point about the HQ's CPA bidding. I think it is illegal unless
Council has such a resolution. The most obvious reason for this is that 
the money needed for it was not included in HQ's Council approved buget,
in which the spending for accounting has been specified. I also think 
that it is a mis-conception to confuse between the Council inspection and 
the CPA (in case Council does enforce one), because the latter can at most
provide an accurate recording of the in-out-come, whereas, the Council has
the responsibility of supervising whether the in-out-come abides by the 
bugget. 

From dlq@u.washington.edu  Thu Jan 20 16:54:36 1994
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 14:51:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Liqun Dong <dlq@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Announcement on the restarting the e-mail meeting
To: IFCSS Council <council-wn@ifcss.org>
Cc: IFCSS HQ <ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU>, IFCSS SVC <svc93@ifcss.org>
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9401201412.A21292-0100000@carson.u.washington.edu>
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Status: RO

To: IFCSS Council
CC: IFCSS HQ, IFCSS SVC
>From: Liqun Dong
      Chairperson of IFCSS Council
RE: To restart the e-mail emergency meeting
Date: January 20, 1994

All Council Colleagues:

      Because of the lack of quorum, I closed the proposed meeting at 
8:30 (PST) of Jan 16, Sunday. After that time, there are several councils 
signed on the meeting and the meeting quorum has been rearched. 
Considering the technical problem in our council net and some probable 
misunderstandings among councils, I have discussed with many council 
members and compared all possibilities mentioned/debated in the net and in 
intensive talks this two days. Right now, I formally announce to re-open 
the e-mail meeting with the deadline of Jan 24, Monday, 
20:59(EST)/17:59(PST).

      The followings are some further issues relevant:
1. The presence: all councils who have signed on the meeting before can 
be accounted as their presence; and please sign on formally before Jan 
21, Friday, 18:00(EST)/15:00(PST)if you have not signed on. Otherwise, 
you will be regarded as absence with no regular reason.

2. Net:  I accept Mr. Chen Dong's suggestion and the meeting will be 
conducted in the council's working net:
           council-wn@ifcss.org.

3. All the debates and votes on the posted resolutions should be put 
into meeting record if there is no further amendment, even though in the 
inactive period of the meeting. The deadline of vote is Jan 24, Monday, 
at 20:59(EST)/17:59(PST).

4. Any amendment on the posted resolutions and any emergency motion should 
be sent to the net no later than Jan 22, Saturday, at 20:59(EST)/17:59(PST).
Otherwise, it can not be accepted by the meeting simply because of the 
difficulties on voting and further discussion on the e-mail system.

5. The resolutions (motions) need to be voted until now in the meeting 
are (as Chen Dong's numbering):
        CPA proposal by HQ
        [CP5026] temporally inactive Finance Committee
        [CP5027] amendment to council bylaw
        [CP5028] open the "finance-net".



Liqun Dong (signed)
Chairperson of IFCSS Council

From DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov  Thu Jan 20 18:44:35 1994
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From: DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov
Subject: Re: Announcement on the restarting the e-mail meeting
To: dlq@u.washington.edu
Cc: council-l@ifcss.org, council-wn@ifcss.org
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Dear colleagues,

Glad to see Liqun's announcement to restart the email conference.
Hope this message can serve as my formal sign on mail.
Sorry, Chen Dong, I could not find the little form you once sent.

Hope this time we won't miss anyone in the net.


Yungui

From dong  Thu Jan 20 19:27:40 1994
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To: council-wn, dlq@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re:  Announcement on the restarting the e-mail meeting
Cc: ifcss@WAM.UMD.EDU, ifcssvc, svc93
Status: RO


Sorry, Liqun, I must have misunderstand the meeting's postponed deadline.
I support you current suggestion, i.e. extend to Monday.

Now we have the following members signed on so far:
	Chen Dong, Ding Yungui, Dong Liqun, Fan Hongran, Liang Er,
	Ren Songlin, Shao Qing, Wang Jing, Wang Yu, Xu Datong, Zhang Feng,'
	Zhang Li
Correct me if there're any mistake in the list.

Dong Chen,

PS, even council-wn is a close net, all the posting can be found at anonymous
ftp site - ifcss.org, under the directory
/ifcss/council/5th_council/email_meeting/

From dong@fuzzy.umd.edu  Thu Jan 20 19:34:49 1994
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From: dong@fuzzy.umd.edu (priv=-10 D.C.)
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To: <council-l@ifcss.org>
Subject: Re:  Announcement on the restarting the e-mail meeting (fwd)
Cc: council-wn@ifcss.org
Status: RO

Liqun, I got your post from council-l just minutes ago.
BTW, your account in council-wn has been changed to dlq@u.washington.edu,
if you want me to change it back, let me know.

Also, if anybody does not have a copy of the meeting package (CPA recommendation,
proposal, resolutions) , let me know, I will forward one to you.
          __                                         Mail address:
   ______/ /301-405-5025(O)____301-314-9437(fax)     Dong Chen
  / ____/ /_  ___  ___    / __ \____  ___  ____(C)   LPR, Univ. of Maryland
 / /   / __ \/ _ \/ _ \  / / / / __ \/ _ \/ __ \     College Park, MD 20742
/ /___/ / / /  __/ // / / /_/ / /_/ / // / /_/ / Email: dong@umiacs.umd.edu
\____/_/ /_/\___/_//_/ /_____/\____/_//_/\__  /  "Do you know why communist
 __________________________________________/ /    can not be a good C++
/___________________________________________/     programer ?"   --D.C.


From bgqi@medinfo.rochester.edu  Thu Jan 20 20:29:16 1994
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Subject:  
To: council-wn@ifcss.org
From: Bing Qi <bgqi@medinfo.rochester.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 21:33:23 -0500
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Status: RO

I sign on.

Qi Bing

From dlq@u.washington.edu  Thu Jan 20 21:16:46 1994
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Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 19:15:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Liqun Dong <dlq@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Shen Tong signs on.
To: IFCSS Council <council-wn@ifcss.org>
Cc: Liqun Dong <dlq@u.washington.edu>
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Status: RO

Shen Tong asked me to sign on the e-mail meeting. Because she cannot 
access to any email nets right now, I have sent all the posted 
resolutions to her by fax.

Liqun Dong


From DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov  Thu Jan 20 21:21:47 1994
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Date: 20 Jan 1994 21:21:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: DING@vaxld.ameslab.gov
Subject: my vote
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1. HQ's suggested CPA               No.
2. CP5026: ... Finance Committee    No.
3. CP5027: ... Council Bylaw        abstein
4. CP5028: ... "finance-net"        abstein


Dear Chair,

The above is my vote. Thanks



Yungui

From labhgz@unix.cc.emory.edu  Thu Jan 20 23:54:22 1994
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Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 00:50:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Hongguang Zhou <labhgz@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu>
Subject: Re: Announcement on the restarting the e-mail meeting
To: Liqun Dong <dlq@u.washington.edu>
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Liqun:

I see your notice.

Sign On

Zhou Hongguang
Council Member from the Southeast



