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Oppiliappan List Archive: Message 00045 Sep 2005

 
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SrI:
Sri Sadagopan swami, 

I understand your good intentions when you decided to post the two 
posts of mine on mattu-p-eN from T'venkatam list to Oppiliappan, 
since you must have been following the thread from the beginning. 
But reading them out of that thread would give rise to an impression 
that it is merely a wasteful exercise in literary usage, as has been 
made out in the mail below. As such I request you to weigh the 
options before deciding to transfer such mails from one thread to 
another group who have no idea of the background.

When knowledgeable people themselves slip in understanding what 
methodology to apply and where while deciphering a word as mattu-peN, 
I can understand how this will be misconstrued when taken out of 
context.

Besides, I, having known just a bit of Tamil and its usage, am 
tempted to point out the error in the assessment in the following 
mail, literary though -but the lack of which is sure the cause of 
many a mis-interpretation.

The word peNdAtti is peNdu + aatti.
Aatti means woman, we know now.
But Pendu, though meaning woman, is actually used in the context 
of 'pendALudhal' which means 'manaiviyaaga anubhavitthal'
Thus peNdAtti is used to mean 'the woman who is enjoyed as wife'.

We dont find this word used in olden times in casual usage (may be in 
private -one to one with wife). They used mostly, manavi or illaL and 
not peNdaatti, because that conveys another dimension of woman as a 
wife which any person aware of the meaning would not like to use in 
common place.

Being unaware of it has made it a common word!!

Similarly there are a number of things which we must know, the 
absence of knowledge of which is the cause for misplaced or wrong 
knowledge.

Another instance that comes to my mind is 'chara' in dharmam chara' 
which was not told as dharmam kuru. It is because Bheeshma failed 
to 'move'(charathi) along with DHARMA, during Draupadi's 
vasthrahaaran, a great misfortune was not thwarted.

Similarly, the notion on shudras,(pl refer my 3rd mail in the woman & 
vedas series)about which Ramanuja wrote (learnt)one as commentary but 
followed something else in life(this is found as an impondarable by  
me in that mail) But recently I found the justification from none 
other than Choodamani nigandu in the form of a verse which outlines 6 
works or duties for a shudra. Surprisingly none of this about the 
popular notion about shudra and even in BG (chapter 18) bahgavan 
hints at how swabhava determines work. As such I am sure RAmanuja 
must have been aware of this Nigandu sutra while bringing out a 
change in the mindset about shudras.

For commoners like me, this literary basis comes as a surprise as to 
why and how people all these days had net realised the mistake in the 
notion they have held about shudras. If they have known, or that 
knowledge had been trasferred properly, things would not have come to 
such a pass leading to social strains.

And thus it goes.
And my humble request mentioned in the beginning.

Regards,
jayasree saranathan

--- In Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ara Ram <aravaram@xxxx> wrote:
> Dear Jayasree Saranathan:
>  
> You seem to have done exhaustive analysis of the simple words like 
mAttuppeN and mAppiLLai.
> My understanding is that the word maattuppeN is the variation 
of "mAtru peN", meaning different daughter.
> Note that we use the word peN to denote our daughter. Since the 
daughter-in-law is equivalent to the daughter, she is referred to as 
mAtru peN. Likewise, mAppiLLai is the shortening or the deviation for 
mAtru piLLai. Why we don't have the term mAttuppiLLai, I think this 
is due to the tendency to shorten the combination of words. MAttuppeN 
didn't become mAppeN, may be because it is too short. Along the same 
lines, mAttuppiLLai became mAppiLLai, because the former is too long. 
Also, as you noted magaL and magan are the true Tamil words for 
daughter and son fund in the literature. PeN and piLLai are the 
common vocal terms to denote daughter and son.
>  
> If aatti means a woman in ancient Tamil, where is the need for peN 
in peNdAtti? The latter is the common Tamil word for wife.
>  
> At any rate, your explanations appear to be for the literary people 
and the terms in vogue are coined by common, most often, illiterate 
people. Let us keep this in mind.
>  
> Aravamudhan Raman
> I
> 
> sgopan <sgopan@xxxx> wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "kausalya_puthri" <kausalya_puthri@xxxx>
> To: <tiruvenkatam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:06 AM
> Subject: [t'venkatam] Tamil origin of "maattu-poNNu"
> 
> 
> SrI:
> 
> >From the previous mail,
> 
> >>>>>>>>>>>>I even rarely, nay almost couldn't  spot  the word, pra-
> puthri, the Sanskrit equivalent for daughter-in-law in the Valmiki 
> text. (If there are any, please bring it to our notice), they 
called 
> her puthri, Sita, Mythili etc.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> Same with Tamil too.
> One will be surprised to know that no word exists for daughter-in 
> law in very old dictionaries like Choodamani nigandu. In sangam 
> literature too (as far as I have read), the patni is referred to as 
> thalaivi, nayaki etc and very frequently as IllaL (the one who 
heads 
> the Ill or house)  and rarely we come across a term for daughter-in-
> law.
> 
> But there is a specific noun for her at the time of marriage or for 
> the newly married girl.
> This seems to be the root for maatu-p-peN.
> 
> In very old times, the bride was known as 
> "maNAttu -p-peN" (This is found in sentamizh agarathi).
> "maNaattu" means the one going to be married. (maN + aattu)
> maN means manai, maatchi (about family life)
> aattu means `aatti' which is a very ancient term for woman.
> 
> We find that even terms like peN are derivative of their meanings 
> (peN means one who is attractive, it is a synonym for `kaanthai' 
> which also means the same).
> But the word `aatti' has existed as it is (idu kuri-p-peyar) from 
> time immemorial to denote woman in Tamil.
> 
> The woman who is going to get married was known as 
> `MaNaattu' (perhaps maNaatti)
> and once married, she is 
> `manaiyaatti' which is commonly used in post sangam literature.
> 
> Manaiyaatti is the wife and maNaatti is the bride (note the 
> difference in na-karam and Na-garam)
> While the former is about her status in manai (home), the later is 
> about her status at the time of  marriage.
> 
> Tamil dictionaries do have this word, maNaattu-p-peN denoting 
bride. 
> Apart from the derivation mentioned above (maN + aatti), there are 
> two other  roots for this term.
> 
> One  is `maNam' or thirumaNam (marriage).
> MaNaattu-p-peN is one who is going to get married or just married.
> (maNam + aatti)
> 
> Another root is `maNNudal' which means (among other meanings) 
seidal 
> (makes) alamkariththal (decorates) and seppaniduthal (re-builds)
> 
> The one who does `maNNudal' is known as maNaatti or maNaattu-p-
peN  - 
> an obvious reference to the new kind of life the bride brings to 
the 
> groom's life.
> 
> This maNaattu is found to have changed to maNaatti or maNavaatti in 
> latter texts. Even now  the term maNAvaatti is in vogue in written 
> Tamil. The masculine for this is maNaaLan or maNavaaLan. 
> 
> This maNaattu could have changed into maattu in due course. Since 
> maNaattu is no longer  in popular usage, we can arrive at this 
> inference -that maattu has replaced maNaattu.
> 
> But note that this term is applicable only at the time of marriage, 
> as how we use the (still-in-use) term for the groom, maNaaLAn. We 
> don't call one like this after marriage. The same rule applies to 
> maNaattu-p-peN too.
> 
> Once married she is `marumaatti' or `maru-magal'. This word, 
> marumaatti or maru magal is in popular usage. Here again the 
meaning 
> of these terms denote the lofty ideal of taking up the bride in to 
> the family fold as one with others and not as one who `brings' 
> something along or later.
> 
> The term maru magal (marumagan or marumaan as masculine gender) has 
> its root in very ancient literature.
> 
> The term `maruga' which is used in sangam literature (like in maal 
> maruga) is not about Murugan or any masculine gender. It is derived 
> from the meaning ` the one who has come in the marabu or lineage'. 
> Muruga as maal maruga means one who has come in the lineage of 
> Thirumaal.
> 
> Likewise, the marumaaL and marumaan used in our homes, derived 
> from `marumaatti' or `marumaan' bear the meaning that they are  
those 
> who have come in one's marabu or lineage.
> 
> This meaning is applied to the daughter-in-law too. 
> The `maNaattu-p-peN' who has entered matrimony is referred to 
> as `marumaatti' (like the Sanskrit pra-puthri), as one who is now 
in 
> our lineage or as one belonging to our lineage. This term latter 
> became to be known as marumagaL (and marumagan for the son-in-law) 
in 
> having absorbed them in the family / lineage.
> 
> Thus it is improper to call the daughter-in-law as maatu-p-peN, 
even 
> as derivative of maNaattu-p-peN, since the relevance is only to her 
> as a bride.
> 
> She is now our magal, puthri or maru magal or marumaaL belonging to 
> our marabu.
> 
> Even otherwise, the term `maruvudal' as another  root of 
marumaatti, 
> has relevance in her 
> `merging with' `mixing with' and `holding to' the new home.
> 
> 
> About mAppillai ( I have not come across this word in literary 
use), 
> it could have been maam + pillai in maNipravaaLA use, as this is in 
> distinct usage only in Brahmin families. Maam, the Sanskrit word 
> for `to me' - `puthra to me'
> 
> Or in Tamil as maa = big, senior etc. 
> 
> It must also be known whether this word has any connection with 
> mopplah of Kerala.
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Any mistake in the mails may be pointed out for correction and 
better 
> understanding.
> 
> Regards,
> Jayasree saranathan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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