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Addressed to all the female members of the various groups

Respected Mother

This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by
various respondents. The writer once again thanks all for taking
pains to add to the knowledge for benefit of all.

The response of the writer is in brackets and underlined and
placed below the relevant comments by worthy bhaktas.

Please forgive the errors of the writer. No offense is intended.
If it seems some of the points are gender biased this is purely
co-incidental and not intentional.


This topic has been quite controversial over the past many years across
various groups, fora, philosophers, thinkers, religious leaders etc.

If the background base is always kept as the frame of reference then
everyone both man and woman would be able to appreciate the ground
realities

What is this background base ? VEDAS

The Vedas form the backbone of mankind's birth, life, death, after life and
the entire gamut of interplay in the universe. The Vedas are without end
or beginning, without any gender, invisible, eternally pervading,
ruthlesslessly neutral and ultimately are in 'Sound' form. It is said that
the Vedas precede even the Gods.

The human being's (man and women) primary duty even before Artha, Kama,
Moksha is to preserve and propagate the Vedas. In other words DHARMA.

Man and women have no other Duty other than this

If this primary duty is neglected, or diluted or compromised even a
slightest bit, then chaos starts, which is another word for KALI YUGA, the
present times in which we live.

How to preserve and propagate the Vedas whose form is 'sound' ? Simple.
Repeat, teach and evolve. Hence the oral tradition of passing on the
message, mantra, chanting, scriptures, knowledge to the next generation.
Daily blind repetition without even knowing the meaning was the first duty.

The Rishis got down to composing elaborate procedures and systems for
compliance with this diktat of the Vedas. This entailed tackling several
complex issues facing the Rishis of ancient lore:

1) The Vedic mantras are to be chanted in the same manner of chanting
in which they are learnt and there is no compromise allowed. The Vedas
prohibit any change. No human or God has authority to change this.
Therefore, the ancient Rishis through extensive Tapas and Yoga got divine
inspiration through the very ;'sound' of the Vedas and the message to
mankind was " ensure that the grammer, swara etc. are always kept in their
original pristine format as these are divine

The celestial carpenter Tvasta had a spat with Indra the king of the
Gods and without his Guru's help learnt a Vedic mantra composed of
certain syllables. The mantra had to be chanted in a particular and
specific manner. The brief meaning of the mantra was "Give me a son who
will be a slayer of Indra". However,. Due to a slight slip of the
tongue the mantra being 100% same, the intonation, pitch, inflection
while chanting got changed by 0.000001%. The entire meaning of the very
same words became " may Indra become the slayer of my son". !

This is because the Vedic chanting is double edged sword. The same
mantra can have different meanings for different purposes.

This implied that for perfect chanting, rigorous unrelentless training
was critical The person who is responsible for child-bearing therefore
cannot be expected to comply with this rigour and therefore, man was
chosen.

Even if a woman were to practice chanting and was able to sustain the
practice for long, if by mistake she made the wrong pronunciation, then
she would be harming her child, and maybe also cause damage to others.
Such extreme risks should be avoided

They codified these under the various subjects - details of which have
already been given by Shri Malolan Cadambi in his 28/1 reply.

2) Part of the Vedic command was that the mantras, chanting etc. should
be done full throated and in a loud voice for hearing at great distances.
Literally it has to be in a totally shameless fashion a roar. The reason
again was that the effect of sound to turn to benefit to mankind, the
sound had to be said aloud. In some mantras during homams the chanting is
done from the bottom of the pit of the stomach

Who, man or woman is fit for this job ? The man was chosen because women
had to bear the child and even by the most conservative estimate of
child-bearing once in a life-time, at least for 6 months during the
lifetime of the woman she would not be able chant loudly with the child
inside her.

3) To chant the Vedas perfectly meant that the person has to have good
physical stamina, sustainable over a long period. Why long period? Because
perfection requires practice and a minimum continuous practice of over 10
years. Someone had to therefore ensure that the Chanting population
maintained its stamina throughout the lifetime. And the someone had to be
from the same chanting category, not any outsider or stranger.

4) Further how to ensure continuity forever ? Everyone - man and woman -
had to contend with sickness, death, old age and other realities. The only
to ensure this was the procreation as designed by nature so that before
either or both die the next generation is there to take over the Vedic
mantle. This brought up the issue of child-bearing etc.

5) How to ensure safe, healthy long living progeny ? Who (man or woman)
is fit to be the vehicle for this requirement ? Whoever, either man or
woman was chosen then such a person will not be able to STRICTLY OBEY the
Vedic Law. Non-Obedience would invite trouble. So judiciously they
arrived at a decision taking a cue ( elaborated below ) from their source,
again, the Vedas. They decided that such a person (either man or woman)
who will take the burden of carrying the child - irrespective whether it
is a boy or girl will have to be Accorded a higher status to ensure that
such a person need not STRICTLY OBEY the words of the Vedas ONLY with
respect to chanting, repeating, propagating. However, the compromise for
such an relaxation would be that the person , will proactively and actively
and sincerely support the other opposite category i.e. if man is chosen to
carry the burden of pregnancy, then he is excused and he has to support
woman who will do FULL TIME CHANTING, CHANTING AND CHANTING,
SANDHYAVANDANAM, GAYATHRI AND REARING THE AGNI.

If women is chosen to carry the burden, then she is excused but she has
to support man in his duties.

Either way, man and woman were inter-dependent and one had to
necessarily support the
other who was busy in doing the Chanting.

In the end, the Rishis found that to meet all these stringent demands of
the Vedas, and since there were only two types of people. (a) male (b)
female some sort of solution had to be found because if everyone - man and
woman - STRICTLY OBEYED THE VEDIC DICTUM OF CHANTING then everyone - man
and woman - would have to say Gayathri, everyone - man and woman - would
have to wear the Upanayanam, everyone - man and woman - would have to do
the Sandhyavandanam forever, everyone - man and woman - has to sit in
front of the fire(Agni) for a minimum of 3 to 4 hours daily, everyone - man
and woman - will have to do over 25 samskaras, everyone - man and woman -
will have to do the Shrardam and Pitru works.

In such a case who will ensure that the food consumed by the chanting
people is pure, safe; who will ensure that the household of the chanting
members (everyone - man and woman - ) is looked after; who will care for
the children ?. Where is the support system to ensure this because only
a particular class of people could be involved EXCLUSIVELY for this special
job. Core competency was the key. Imagine in a family, if all the members
are involved in chanting with the same principles of the Vedas full time?

And since the Vedas had already declared that Gayathri is the starting
point and nothing can be done without Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam, no one
(male or female) could start Vedic chanting without these requirements.
Further the prerequisite for Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam itself was the
Upanayanam. In turn the primary requisite for Upanayanam was constant
ability to strengthen the body, mind, inner parts to have capacity,
capability, aptitude for learning, retaining, repeating, contemplating and
teaching Vedas - see above

Therefore, the person who was involved in chanting had to be segregated
from the rest of the people (both man and woman) and confined to a ghetto
called "agraharam" where the person is left to do the duty unhindered,
without any distraction, disturbance and problem. However, since the
person also had to have adequate body sustenance, the person should have
very good props or support systems to co-ordinate all infrastructure,
ward off problems, be the alter ego, literally the other half. Even now
there are orthodox agnihotris In villages who do not even take a sip of
water outside their house and do not eat any other food except those cooked
by their wife.

Some people might want to argue that this smacks of slavery of the serving
individual/category to the other, but this is a wrong notion. The farmer
helps cultivate the grain which I consume sitting in my office in
Air-conditioned. I pay income tax to the government who subsidize the
farmer. Whichever way one looks in this world there is one group helping
the other. Does it mean the helper is the servant and the helped the
Master? The master may be serving someone higher and so on. The chain of
inter dependence is innumerable. Everyone - man and woman - has to be
engaged in something worthwhile. So too one category was designated to
help the other in maintaining the sanctity of the Vedas.

The PARAMACHARYAR of Kanchi had a very good example for this EXCLUSIVE
notion. He maintained that "do we not take care of glass as
"fragile-handle-with-care-warning" when transporting? Why ? By the same
reason, should the Rishis not care for maintaining the purity and sanctity
of the Vedas ? Does this not warrant a distinctly separate, exclusive set
of people whose SOLE AND ONLY EXCLUSIVE PRESERVE WAS TO CHANT, CHANT AND
CHANT AND CHANT.?" Closer home, imagine what would happen if the Indian
Prime Minister or George Bush spent time in making sure their shirts are
properly washed, or ironed or their meal is properly done or their security
guard or the pilot all are appropriate and doing their jobs. They cannot
be disturbed. They have a different job while the support systems are
there to co-ordinate. Without the support the PM or George Bush will
collapse and will be an utter failure.

THE WRITER SINCERELY HOPES THE FEMALE BHAKTAS DO NOT TAKE THIS AMISS. THERE
NO DEGENERATION OF GENDER HERE. IT IS SIMPLY WHAT ROLE ONE PLAYS. EACH ONE
OF US HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BE ENGAGED. THIS SOMETHING IS A SUPPORT TO
ANOTHER AND VICE VERSA. THIS IS WHERE THE HINDU SYSTEM SCORES OVER ALL
OTHER SYSTEMS WHEREBY HIGHEST IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO FUNCTION/JOB PROFILE
AND NOT THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN, MENTAL CAPABILITY, PHYSICAL CAPABILITY,
PERSONAL INTERESTS, GENDER ETC.

What would happen if such a via media is not take? then utter chaos. Any
other basis other than FUNCTIONALITY / JOB PROFILE /CORE COMPETENCY would
be unfair and biased.

By observation of what nature had already intended in the external,
internal, physical, physiological, psychological at all levels, the Rishis
found that man had physical / external capability for hard physical work
and his physical limits could also be stretched.

By contrast women were comparatively with a different disposition.
Especially, during the 3 monthly days, and also during pregnancy from the
4th month till the 13th month extensive rest, care, delicate physical,
mental, emotional handling had to be there. So women could not be subject
to hard physical Labour or their physical and mental limits stretched
beyond a point without damaging their internal organs and causing emotional
instability

THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHICH ENABLED THE RISHIS TO FIX THE
TRADITION OF MEN CHANTING AND WOMEN SUPPORTING MEN IN THEIR JOB WAS THE
SANDHYAVANDANAM WHICH HAD TO BE STARTED AT 3:30 EARLY MORNING, EXACTLY WHEN
THE SUN WAS IN THE TOP AT NOON AND JUST BEFORE DUSK IN THE EVENING WITHOUT
LET, WITHOUT BREAK, FOR LIFE - The scholarly Shri Malolan Cadambi has
already elaborated on this in his rejoinder.

The category of person (either man or woman) who was excused for chanting
would also be logically excluded from the regimen of Sandhyavandanam. But
then why should such a person suffer just because nature has decided
something in their design ? What is the compromise which the Vedas were
offering ? Some solace ? some comfort ?

Once again the Vedas promptly came to the rescue of the Rishis. The Vedas
proclaimed Gayathri (FEMALE) IS the mother of Vedas. No one has heard of
anyone talk of Father of Vedas. So this without beginning, without birth
or without end entity called Vedas too has a source i.e. MOTHER a female.

And to chant the name of all gods, all beings, any Shloka, any chanting,
any prayer, any worship, suktha, veda parayanam, homam, any Shrardam, any
ceremony, any function, even before taking the permission of Vinayakar or
any god, the Supreme Mother's worship had to be done day in and day out.

And since it would seem incongruous and silly not to say the least for the
Vedas themselves to talk about Vedas, the Vedas sheltered under their
Mother, Gayathri and commanded everyone - man and woman - to reach the
Vedas only through their MOTHER. And since the MOTHER Gayathri is the
first mother there is no need for HER to chant her own name. A MOTHER by
her very stature commands respect and reverence while it is not mandatory
for her to show the same respect and reverence to others. Someone has to
be supreme and lead the crowd ? The CEO is the fit person. The CEO for
Mankind is the Mother of the Vedas the Gayathri. The rest of mankind who
do the bidding of the mother are the Clerks, workers, supplicants and
devotees.

Hence the common saying among Hindus "Mata Pita Guru Daivam". Guru and God
are also secondary to MOTHER

Therefore, the woman though not permitted to chant the Vedas is considered
not inferior but superior.

Looking at it from yet another view point we find that women are honored
more than the men folk so to say:

a) One of the names of Vishnu worship is called prominently
SriVaishnavism. The first word is Sri i.e. female. Sri is also the
prefix for Srinivasa of Tirupati, on whose chest rests the female. HIS
strength and locus standi is derived from Sri and not the other way.

b) The great Sankracharyars of Kanchipuram worship Kamakshi (female) as
a primary deity. Moreover, only for the Sankracharya status, the Seers can
see and bless anyone elder or younger, male or female, except the MOTHER.
Therefore, once a person is chosen by the Mutt to be the future pontiff,
has to give up among other things 'seeing' his mother forever. He may see
his father and the father may also meet him after his ascending the Mutt
throne. This is because He can bless his father as a human, and once he
ascends the Mutt seat he becomes impersonal to all, except his Mother. If
by mistake he sees his mother, he has to come down and prostrate before
her. Otherwise, all, even his own father has to prostrate before him. The
Sankracharyar will prostrate only before God and no one else. The only
human exception is his own mother. Hence his mother is forbidden to see him
and he is equally forbidden to see her.

c) Take the primary samskara for enabling the male child to start
chanting the Gayathri, the Upanayanam. The Upanayanam is done by both
parents. If unfortunately, the boy does not have a mother, then the father
alone cannot transmit the Gayathri mantra and perform Upanayanam in the
absence of his wife. Therefore, utmost care is to be taken to ensure the
safety, health, growth, well being of the women.

The father (male) is denied this privilege. So the supreme importance
is given to the Female/woman for mankind's welfare

THAT IS WHY DURING UPANAYANAM, THE VEDAS HAVE DICTATED THAT THE MOTHER
SHOULD BE PRESENT AND THE WOMEN OF THE HUSBAND ALONGWITH THE GURU, THE
CHILD IS PRESENT ENCLOSED INSIDE THE CLOTH. THE MOTHER REPRESENTS AT
THAT MOMENT GAYATHRI AND SUPERVISES THE WHOLE CHANTING TO ENSURE THAT
THE GURU AND THE FATHER ARE INDEED DOING THE CORRECT CHANTING. THAT IS
THE ONE AND ONLY TIME THE FEMALE HEARS THE GAYATHRI. THAT IS ALSO THE
FIRST AND LAST TIME THE SON DOES ABHIVADAM TO THE MOTHER AS HIS OWN
MOTHER PLUS MOTHER GAYATHRI. HE TELLS HER HIS GOTRA, HIS NAME, HIS
LINEAGE ETC. AND SHE ACCEPTS IT AND THEN DEPARTS OUT OF THE SACRED
ENCLOSURE TO HER ABODE IN HEAVENS.

WITHOUT THE WOMAN INSIDE THE SACRED ENCLOSURE, THE GAYATHRI CANNOT BE
TRANSMITTED AND THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF VEDAS ARE RENDERED NULL AND VOID.

SUCH IS THE SUPREME IMPORTANCE GIVEN TO THE MOTHER

d) There were sundry reasons also for women being chosen for a different
calling. The Vedic chanting, Sandhyavandanam etc. were to be performed
bare chested. Most temple priests and pooja etc. are done with the torso
being left bare with the Sacred thread shown prominently. Also, since the
thread was considered Sacred, while attending to nature's call and on some
other occasions, the thread had to be worn differently in a safe manner.
Performing this while wearing a 9 yard saree with upper cloth etc. would be
somewhat unfair to women folk.

Women are therefore referred in Vedic parlance as "Dharma patni". There is
no word as "Dharma-pati". She is the wife of Dharma i.e.that which is
upright. She is the supporter of Dharma and since her opposite is engaged
in Dharma, she too is putting her bit and helping.

Coming to our modern day, can someone say why are there no women in the
fire fighting agencies, in military (there is a small percentage everywhere
in Western modern nations, but this is still a miniscule percentage as an
exception, not an active force to reckon); in oil rigs; in diamond mines;
as engine drivers; cab drivers; long distance lorry drivers; Not because
of some chauvinistic discrimination, but because these are not the natural
potentialities of women. Their forte as per the ancient Indian Rishis etc.
was in pushing, encouraging, urging man and children to the Vedic path.
Physically, they may be wife, sister, mother, but their real purpose is to
represent Gayathri to goad man to do his job diligently.



----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
Anand Iyengar  
<malolakrupa@yah To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
oo.com> cc:  
Subject: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women      
01/21/03 04:09  
AM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Respected All,
Adiyen is not knowledgable enough(in anything), but
when it comes to vedas i have heard from several
people that women should not be chanting the vedas.
Adiyen does not intend to discriminate women or hurt
anybody's feeling , so i request the learned
bhagavatas to throw some light on this issue.

Dasan Anand



----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
Sowmya N V  
<sowmya_nv@yahoo To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
.com> cc:  
Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
01/27/03 01:48  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Namaskaaram Anand avargale

Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas
needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,
moreover
If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant
mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal
Tiruppavai now

Regards
Sowmya



----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
Anand Iyengar  
<malolakrupa@yah To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
oo.com> cc:  
Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
01/27/03 08:03  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Respected Sowmya,
I do respect your interest in chanting the vedas, but
i just wanted to understand what was the exact reason
as to why women were not allowed to chant them.

The thought just came to me as a result of my
curiosity , hence i requested the learned bhagavatas
to give me some insight into the underlying thought.

I am extremly sorry if adiyen has hurt the feelings of
any bhagavatas.

Once again adiyen re-iterates that "I do not mean to
hurt the feelings or intimidate any bhagavatas". I
just wanted to know the reason behind it if any.

Dasan,

Anand
--- Sowmya N V <sowmya_nv@xxxx> wrote:
> Namaskaaram Anand avargale
>
> Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas
> needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,
> moreover
> If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant
> mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal
> Tiruppavai now
>
> Regards
> Sowmya
>
>



----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"SRIDHAR  
RANGANATHA" To: <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>                      
<sranga@xxxx cc:  
m> Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
 
01/27/03 11:15  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Dear Bhagavatas,
Sri Anand has raised an often asked question. AdiEn heard that Because of
Bramha dosham, women cannot chant vedas. Is it true? I request learned
Bhagavats in this list to throw some light on this.
dasan
sridhar ranganatha


-
----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
Sreenivas  
Chakravarthy To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
<kans_chakravarthy@y cc:  
ahoo.co.in> Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
 
01/28/03 01:46 AM  
Please respond to  
bhakti-list  
 
 




Namaskaram Ms. Sowmya.
I dont know the what made you to write this mail. But I dont find any
relationship between Andal's Tiruppavai.
The point that in those days ladies were restricted from learning and
chating vedas cannot be denied.
Infact, that could have been one of the reasons for Andal to compose the
Prabandam verses(which are called Dravida Vedam). But we cannot say that
Andal used to chant vedas and mantras. And chating of vedas has nothing to
do with Prabandams. If we go by your argument, then we would have not got
the prabandams of many Alwars since most of them are not Brahmins and in
those days only Brahmins were allowed to learn Vedas.
Regards
Chakravarthy
Sowmya N V <sowmya_nv@xxxx> wrote:Namaskaaram Anand avargale

Only a woman who is interested in chanting the vedas
needs to know if she is entitled to do so ,and ,
moreover
If aeons ago ,women were not allowed to chant
mantrams , we possibly wouldnt have had a Andal
Tiruppavai now

Regards
Sowmya





----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"Sampath Kumar  
<pbsampathkumar@ To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
yahoo.com>" cc:  
<pbsampathkumar Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
 
01/28/03 07:28  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Looking at this discussion going on back and forth in this issue, I
have approached a swamin at kanchipuram and heard the following.
If anything found to be an error it is due to my lack of knowledge
and nothing else. I also apologise in advance if this mail hurts
somebody.

Sastra's say that anybody without sambandam of Gayathri manthram
should not chant vedam. A person get the Gayathri sambandam by way of
undergoing Upanayanam. Upanayanam is performed only for men and not
for women, and hence this restriction.

In olden days caste system was classified into four categories namely
Brahmna, vysya, Kshatriya and Sudra. Out of the four the former three
caste had the practice of performing Upanayanam and chant vedas.

Moreover only a Brahmin can learn and teach veda whereas a vysya or a
kshatriya can only learn anc chant vedam and cannot teach vedam. If a
vysya or a Kshatriya want to learn vedam he has to come to Brahmna
Acharya, that is one of the reason Lord Krishna had to been
Sandeepani Maharishi to learn vedam.

I refuse the point raised by Sri Chakravarthi, that only Brahmnas
were allowed to chant vedam in those days. It is definitely not true
to the best of my knowledge. Only Sudras were not allowed to chant
vedam. I don't know on what basis he has told this. Even though we
cannot find real Kshatriya or a real Vysya today, still there are
some Kshatriyas and Vysyas undergoing the upanayanam ceremony. Alwars
have born in this world with the Grace of Sriman Narayanan. Hence
definitely Alwars could have composed this 4000 Divya Prabandam at
any cost.



----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"Vijay Iyengar"  
<vijay.iyengar@w To: <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>                      
ipro.com> cc:  
Subject: Re: Question on women and the Vedas                

01/28/03 07:54  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Hi All,

I am the grand-nephew of Madabushi Gopalachar, who was a guru to
many. I had discussed the same issue with him. He said the reason for
women prohibited from chanting the vedas is the OMKAARA.

When one pronounces OMKAARA it should be from the NAABHI.
When OMKAARA is thus produced, a lot of enyzmes will be generated.
Of these Androgen will be generated more and this will lead to a good
well built masculine body. If this is generated more in women, they tend
to look more masculine.

Regards
Thuphal VijayaRaghvan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"M.K.  
Krishnaswamy" To: <Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Bhakti-List"       
<krishnaswamy@at <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
tbi.com> cc:  
Subject: [Oppiliappan] Re: Question regarding Chanting of   
01/29/03 12:25 Vedas by women  
AM  
Please respond  
to Oppiliappan  
 
 





Dear Bhaktas,

In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from Vedas
itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas.
What we know definitely is only that in the past, our ancestors were
following the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting
their husbands in performing the vedic rituals.

There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this injunction
against ladies. What we have to consider however, is whether there is any
reason now to continue this past practice without reducing the sanctity of
the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the healthy principle indicated long
afterwards in the following lines of Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:

Old order changeth, yielding place to new;
And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving Dharma,
much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing itself
constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and pure. (It
is still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as those who
undertake the yatra to Badri will confirm!).

In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping in
view the living conditions which prevailed in those days.  So much has
changed since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for continuing
this old good custom, we might be denying the healthy development of
interest in the Vedas and the spreading of vedic teachings in the present
times.  Many ladies who have excelled in academic persuits and engaged in
public service are competent to study Vedic scriptures and contribute
their profound thinking on various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we
revere the active and dynamic support of 51% of the population and
restrict it to Males only many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the
qualification based on gender. We need many more individuals of the
caliber of Gargi, Maitreyi and Andal to propogate Vedic teachings in this
materialistic-value-centered age and times.

Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid, unchangeable
constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all times.  For, if
they had done so, our religion could not be the unique sanatana dharma
that it is today -- with strenth and vitality that comes only through the
medium of change, enabling more of us to choose and travel on the path to
the changeless One.

Dasan,
Krishnaswamy M.K.


 
"KESHAVA B.  
PRASAD" To: <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
<keshavaprasad@sbc cc:  
global.net> Subject: Question on womenand the Vedas                    
 
01/28/03 12:09 PM  
Please respond to  
bhakti-list  
 
 




Harihi Om

As long as Srivaishnavas accept Sri Lakshmi, the consort of Srimannarayana
and Andal, one among the Alwars, as members of our lineage of Acharyas,
common sense should dictate that there is no logical reason to prohibit
women from chanting Vedas. The belief is perhaps, unfounded and purely
prejudicial.

The only drawback if one wants to call it that, is a personal observation
of mine which is, women's vocal chords are not designed to generate the
kind of tenre and deep sounds that experts say are needed in reciting
Vedas. It is only men who are likely to have these vocal characteristics.
My wife and I recite Suktas together sometimes and she feels humiliated and
will not be able to continue if I start with a style that I have learned to
recite the suktas. In deference to her, I have to subdue my own recitation
style and believe me that I will not have the satisfaction of having
recited the sukta well at the end of it. But that's life in 21st Century.
Since sounds, syllables, punctuation, accentuation and pronunciation are
big part of reciting Vedas, it will not be without reason to believe that
recitation of Vedas became a forte of men and women were out of the
competition!

This is only my humble opinion.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan
Keshava Prasad

----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"Malolan  
Cadambi" To: <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>                      
<cadambi@hotpop. cc:  
com> Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
 
01/28/03 10:33  
AM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Dear Members,

It is quite true that stree-s are not allowed to chant vedam. There is a
reason for this. As you know the veda mantara-s are made up of bIja, and
other parts. They have to be chanted within the strict rules of phonetics
(siksha). They have strict prosodies.

The mantara-s of the veda-s evolve from the nAda-brahman. Dr V Varadachari
has written about the nAda brahman in his book "Agamas and South Indian
Vaishnavism". As you would know, there are six chakras through which the
power of the brahman (sakti) is invoked through yogic practices.

The anatomy of a women is much different from that of a man. This is
scientifically true. I wrote about the chakra-s a few days back. You might
want to read about them here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bhakti-list/message/17140

Given this fact, the Siksha or phonetics of a mantra cannot be invoked by a
stree. The chanting of the mantras is not a mere process of utterances from
the mouth. It involves much more than that.

However, as you would know there are exceptions to that. We had vedic women
seers like Maitreyi, Gargi et al. Please note that these sages are not just
mere humans like us, who now live in the dark age of the Kali Yuga.

Indeed, everyone can chant the stotra-s. Sriman Sadagopan Iyengar of
Coimbatore had written an excellent article about that sometime back. It is
in the archives.

Present conditions are something completely different. We would be better
off by understanding the rationale behind the practices of those times
instead of understanding the mud wallow that present day society is in now.
This is of course the case when are thoughts are within the parameters of
vedantic thinking.

There is a good article in this following website which seems to cover some
contemporary issues within the background of hinduism.

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Women_in_Hinduism.htm

Just a thought: We would be better of discussing this topic in the
sv-general group.

Regards,

Malolan Cadambi






----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
"M.K.  
Krishnaswamy" To: <Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Bhakti-List"       
<krishnaswamy@at <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
tbi.com> cc:  
Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
01/29/03 12:25  
AM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Dear Bhaktas,

In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from Vedas
itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas. What
we know definitely is only that in the past, our ancestors were following
the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting their husbands
in performing the vedic rituals.

There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this injunction
against ladies. What we have to consider however, is whether there is any
reason now to continue this past practice without reducing the sanctity of
the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the healthy principle indicated long
afterwards in the following lines of Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:

Old order changeth, yielding place to new;
And God fulfills himself in many ways -
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving Dharma,
much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing itself
constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and pure. (It is
still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as those who undertake
the yatra to Badri will confirm!).

In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping in view
the living conditions which prevailed in those days. So much has changed
since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for continuing this old
good custom, we might be denying the healthy development of interest in the
Vedas and the spreading of vedic teachings in the present times. Many
ladies who have excelled in academic persuits and engaged in public service
are competent to study Vedic scriptures and contribute their profound
thinking on various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we revere the active
and dynamic support of 51% of the population and restrict it to Males only
many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the qualification based on gender. We
need many more individuals of the caliber of Gargi, Maitreyi and Andal to
propogate Vedic teachings in this materialistic-value-centered age and
times.

Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid, unchangeable
constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all times. For, if
they had done so, our religion could not be the unique sanatana dharma that
it is today -- with strenth and vitality that comes only through the medium
of change, enabling more of us to choose and travel on the path to the
changeless One.

Dasan,
Krishnaswamy M.K.




 
Sridhar Vasudevan  
<radhas_sridhar@y To: Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Bhakti-List           
ahoo.co.uk> <bhakti-list@xxxxx>  
cc:  
01/29/03 06:57 AM Subject: Vedas by women  
Please respond to  
bhakti-list  
 
 





Dear Bhagavathas,

Some relevant article indicate that women were responsible for composing
Rig Veda and until Manu's era women were undergoing upanayanam ceremony. It
appears that the practise were discontinued at some stage. Adiyen has been
evasive from a couple of ladies one from Auckland and one in Germany who
eagerly seek to learn Sri Suktam. And there seems to be increasingly more
women who would like to learn and recite vedas.

Do we follow the post Manu tradition or the vedic era?

We certainly need to have a very convincing answer to this? Who will be the
governing body who can issue a verdict on this issue?

http://www.womenexcel.com/education/eduwomen.htm reads as follows

The Vedic era (Before 200 B.C)

During the Vedic era, boys and girls had equal opportunities for advanced
education. The girls used to spend the early years of their life, like the
boys, in brahmacharya ashram after participating in the Upanayana Sanskara
ceremony. Upanayana (sacred thread ceremony) was required for the study of
the Vedas. Therefore, in the Vedic age, Brahmacharya discipline and
training was as much necessary for girls as for boys. If Upanayana was not
performed for a girl, then the girl would be reduced to the status of a
Sudra, and she could not marry. After the Upanayana ceremony, girls were
given the same education that was given to boys, but they were permitted to
quit early as they were expected to marry at the age 16 or 17.
In those days, women dominated teaching. Boarding school facilities were
available for girl students under the able protection of women. During the
Vedic period some women were so learned that they publicly challenged men
of letters and held their own in discussions on philosophical and
metaphysical subjects. Women took an active part in agriculture and in the
making of war weapons like bows and arrows.

Women and the Intellectual Field

Twenty-seven women rishis were responsible for the composition of mantras
for Vedas especially the Rig Veda. Some of them were Vishvarava Ghosh and
Apala Atreyi, Indrani, Kakhi Vati Ghosh, Surya Savitri, Dakshina Prajapati,
Vak Ambhireni, Ratri Bharadwaj, Gasha, Shrudha Kamayani, Yami Shachi
Paulomi, Sarparajni and Urvashi. The majority of the hymns in the Rig Veda
are dedicated to mythological beings and the personification of abstract
qualities.

Post Vedic period (200 BC- 1200 AD)

Manu, the author of Manusmriti, or the ancient laws, was of the opinion
that women were not eligible for the study of the Vedas, nor for the
reciting of mantras in performing sacraments, except in the case of
marriage. The nuptial ceremony was to be the only Vedic sacrament for
women. According to Manu, serving one's husband was equivalent of living in
the house of a teacher and receiving spiritual teaching. For women,
household duties were equated with yajna. Manu states that sacraments must
be performed for females so as to sanctify the body at the proper time and
in the proper order but without recitation of sacred mantras. The concern
apparently was that because girls were getting married early, they would
not be able to learn the mantras properly, and thus would make mistakes.
Earlier women were married at 16 and 17 but in this period the age of
marriage dropped down to 12. However, girls from rich and noble families
continued to receive fairly good education. Besides the study of Sanskrit
and Prakrit, they were given solid grounding in housekeeping and arts like
music, dance, painting etc. Educated women made a great contribution to
literature in this era.

<http://www.gurjari.net/ico/Mystica/html/gayatri_mantra.htm> reads as
follows also (This was also indicated by Sri. M.K.Krishnaswamy)

Rishinis or women rishis like Gargi and Lopamudra are said to have
undergone the Upanayanam and the former indeed, engaged in debate none less
than the law giver, Yagnyavalkya

Dasan

Sridhar Vasudevan










----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
 
S Ramachandran  
To: sarangan@xxxx  
01/29/03 08:51 AM cc:  
Subject: Re: Question on women and the Vedas(Document link: 
oppaliappan&kanchi)  
 



could u be kind enough to locate the copy of this discussion and post it to
me ? thanks.rgds



 
"Shreyas  
Sarangan To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
<sarangan@yahoo. cc:  
com>" <sarangan Subject: Re: Question on women and the Vedas                
 
01/28/03 11:56  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




There was an discussion on this subject
last year in sv-rituals:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/rituals/apr2002/0076.html


-Shreyas






----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51
AM -----
 
"KESHAVA B.  
PRASAD" To: <bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>  
<keshavaprasad@sbc cc:  
global.net> Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
 
01/29/03 11:28 AM  
Please respond to  
bhakti-list  
 
 




I whole heartedly agree with Sri Krishna Swamy that our Dharma has evolved
over thousands of years and should continue to evolve with the change of
times.
He is also, correct in saying that factual evidence from our scriptures has
not been presented as to why women are or should be barred from reciting
vedas.

I beg to differ with him however, in that there are no rigid rules in the
Vedas which could be far from the truth. There are rigid rules and so are
many rigid what one might call prejudices hard to get rid of.

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan

Keshava Prasad





----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51
AM -----
 
Sowmya N V  
<sowmya_nv@yahoo To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
.com> cc:  
Subject: Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women  
01/29/03 12:34  
PM  
Please respond  
to bhakti-list  
 
 




Namaskaram Krishnaswamy avargale
This has been by far the best mail reply i have
read in this group
In case you have a wife ,she is the luckiest in the
world , because she has by her side a man who knows
the real definition of equality ! And more importantly
lives by it

Regards
Sowmya
--- "M.K. Krishnaswamy" <krishnaswamy@xxxx>
wrote:
> Dear Bhaktas,
>
> In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no
> direct quote from Vedas itself that lays down an
> injunction against ladies chanting the Vedas. What
> we know definitely is only that in the past, our
> ancestors were following the practice of ladies
> being Saha-dharmini's only, assisting their husbands
> in performing the vedic rituals.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51
AM -----
 
"Pradeep Janakiraman  
<pradeepjanakiraman@ To: bhakti-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
yahoo.com>" cc:  
<pradeepjanakiraman Subject: Re: Question onwomen and the Vedas                
 
01/29/03 10:54 AM  
Please respond to  
bhakti-list  
 
 




Further to this, I also recall reading some recent news articles
about some parts in North-India where 'women priests' conduct
ceremonies such as marriage, upanayana etc.

I think times are indeed changing and there's equal opportunity
education and employment in these areas also.

But as far as I have heard or read, women are forbidden from reciting
or reading the vedas including the 'pranava-mantram'. By reading of
the puranas and the itihaasas they can attain to the same state or
better than their male counterparts. Also they can chant quite a
variety of mantras. By merely chanting 'rama-naama' they can achieve
moksham.

Sabari or more recently Meera did not read the vedas. All that they
knew were Rama and Krishna and they are held in higher regard than
someone who merely studied vedas in their times.

For women, I have heard that their "nitya-agnihotram", is their
cooking chores, their "nitya-karma" is taking care of the needs of
people at home and their "moksha-saadhana" could be reading of the
puranas and chanting simple yet invaluable mantras such as the "rama-
naama".


----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/30/03 08:51
AM -----
 
"shosur  
<shosur@xxxx To: Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx  
m>" <shosur cc:  
Subject: [Oppiliappan] Re: Question regarding Chanting of   
01/29/03 10:27 Vedas by women  
PM  
Please respond  
to Oppiliappan  
 
 




Namaskaram,
Here is an answer I had received for Sri Chinnajeeyar Swami. My
question was put to rest by his answer and it might not be so to many
others. It also includes a answer why travel beyond the Seas were
forbidden in olden days.

You have asked for two things in connection with
Vedas. Vedas can be chanted in any part of the world,
expect in the grave yards. Of course, there are also
certain manthras which can be chanted there.
In olden days, there was no convenience to travel
fast, hence SAndhya etc.,activities could not be
possible. So they wanted not to travel. Now a days it
is possible to travel fast and also good food
facilities are available everywhere.
2. Ladies are not supposed to chant,for they are not
wearing Yajno:pavi:tha. If that has to be wore, they
need to practice Sandhhya 3 times a day, this is not
possible for them either. Their menstrual cycle will
be an obstruction to do that. As that performance is
not possible, they asked not to chant manthras with
Swaras. Yet, they can know the meanings and the other
discussions. AS you mentioned,Ga:rgi,, a great
theologist of olden days, argued with Ya:jnyawalkya,
in a very powerful manner. She was not a vedic scholar
but she was a Ve:da:nthi. Now a days, there are so
many of such kind among ladies. That is not wrong.

=chinnajeeyar=




--- In Oppiliappan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "M.K. Krishnaswamy"
<krishnaswamy@xxxx> wrote:
> Dear Bhaktas,
>
> In this correspondence so far, there has beeen no direct quote from
Vedas itself that lays down an injunction against ladies chanting the
Vedas. What we know definitely is only that in the past, our
ancestors were following the practice of ladies being Saha-dharmini's
only, assisting their husbands in performing the vedic rituals.
>
> There could be any number of reasons for the origin of this
injunction against ladies. What we have to consider however, is
whether there is any reason now to continue this past practice
without reducing the sanctity of the Vedas. Our Dharma follows the
healthy principle indicated long afterwards in the following lines of
Tennyson in Morte d'Arthur:
>
> Old order changeth, yielding place to new;
> And God fulfills himself in many ways -
> Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.
>

> Unlike other religions, Sanatana Dharma is a constantly evolving
Dharma, much like the perennial and purifying river Ganga, renewing
itself constantly and thereby continuing to remain fresh, current and
pure. (It is still pure in the upper reaches in the Himalayas, as
those who undertake the yatra to Badri will confirm!).
>
> In the past, the custom might have been necessary and good, keeping
in view the living conditions which prevailed in those days. So much
has changed since then and in such radical ways too. By opting for
continuing this old good custom, we might be denying the healthy
development of interest in the Vedas and the spreading of vedic
teachings in the present times. Many ladies who have excelled in
academic persuits and engaged in public service are competent to
study Vedic scriptures and contribute their profound thinking on
various issues. Why deny the Vedas that we revere the active and
dynamic support of 51% of the population and restrict it to Males
only many of whom, perhaps, fulfill only the qualification based on
gender. We need many more individuals of the caliber of Gargi,
Maitreyi and Andal to propogate Vedic teachings in this materialistic-
value-centered age and times.
>
> Let us thank our ancestors for not prescribing a rigid,
unchangeable constitution in the Vedas and barring the ladies for all
times. For, if they had done so, our religion could not be the
unique sanatana dharma that it is today -- with strenth and vitality
that comes only through the medium of change, enabling more of us to
choose and travel on the path to the changeless One.
>
> Dasan,
> Krishnaswamy M.K.


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