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Dear All,

I think that for all these avatars, there are metaphysical reasons and we 
should think beyond bagavatha apacharam etc... If we say that he will not 
withstand bagavatha apachaaram, then questions will come why the lord did not 
do anything against kirumi kanda chOzhan because of whom our great koorathalwar 
had to lose eyes, peria nambi had to lose his life, srimad ramanuja had to run 
away to melkote. I strongly feel that we should think beyond mere bhakthi angle 
and analyse metaphysical reasons behind these avatars. 

We can take clues like 

1. only in narasimha avatar and varaha avatar, peria piratti (lakshmi)is 
directly related and not in any other avatars. Why?

2. References of these avatars are in Veda and Brahmanam. 
a) "tath hiranyakasibO bavath" says brahmanam. 
b) "threthaa nithathE patham" says veda for vamana avatar.

Vedas were prior to all these avatars as we see the rishis in these avatars are 
vedic scholars. And hence we cannot simply go by the story alone for these 
avatars and should go beyond. We can see that these avatar stories (non 
paripoorna avatars) could have got devised to explain the metaphor of the Vedic 
concepts.

And our Great azhwars knew the great reasoning behind this, they sung in praise 
of these avatars.

Regards,

Nanmaaran
ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
There are 4 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Fw: AchArya Hrhdaym 130
From: nsp 
2. AchArya Hrhdaym 129
From: nsp 
3. Re: Narasimha avatar
From: "bvsheela" 
4. Narasimha avatar
From: "Balaji Sundarrajan" 


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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:57:01 +0530
From: nsp 
Subject: Fw: AchArya Hrhdaym 130



AchArya Hrdhayam - sUthram 220 Contd.
Second Ten Contd.

Continuing on the second ten of thiru-voi-mozhi it was noted that the Lord who 
is the cause of all the worlds and souls, blessed AzhwAr with knowledge who 
desired for mOksham and nithya sUri ghOshti. AzhwAr became crestfallen on not 
getting this. The Lord poured His affection on Him which flowed down to 
generations of AzhwAr's sambhandhi-s. However, when the Lord tried to grant 
salvation, AzhwAr rejected on the grounds that it should be for His sake and 
not for the sake of AzhwAr and he always requested for His divine feet, thus 
underlining the nature of both. Further, It was seen that those qualities which 
go to establish the supremacy -parathvam-namely, sagala pala prathathva, 
kAraNathva, shEsha sAyithva, sriyapathithva and saulabhyAdhigaL were seen in 
the thiru-voi-mozhi-s "thiNNan" and "aNaivadhu aravaNai". It was also observed 
that vision by arjunA and an utterance by shivA was shown as another instance 
which go to establish the supremacy of the Lord. The grief associated with
this world; the happiness linked with the mOksham and the yield which is 
generally final, is right from the inception stage, is enunciated.
Further,


Text: "madhithup perukki, mUgzhi azhundhik, kEzhmai valam sUdhu seidhu, iLamai 
kedAmal seiyyum, kshEthra vAsa, sangErthanAnjali, pradhakshaNa gadhi, 
chinthanAthyangayukthamAkkugiRAr iraNdAm pathilEa"

Summary: The obstacles which hinder approaching Him are all mentioned and the 
underlying disadvantages are spelt out. The accumulated effecrts submerge 
inescapably one into this world.
In Contrast, at a young age, choosing a dhivya-dhEsam as one's abode, singing 
hymns in praise of Him, thinking of Him always are indeed soul's nature and 
appropriate to the means which is apposite.

The pAsuram
the key aspects covered in the' kiLar oLi iLami' thiru voi mozhi -2-10 are 
covered herein: Accordingly the donts are listed hereunder:

THE DONT'S 
"sadhir iLa madavAr thAzhchiyai madhithu" }
"thiRamudai valathAl thEvinai perukki" }
"valvinai mUzhgi" }
"naragu azhundhi" } The nature of the obstacles are listed out ;
"kEzhmai seidhu" } Beware, these are to be avoided.
"valam kazhithu" }
"sUdhenRu kaLavum sUdhum seidhu" }

THE DO'S

"mAl irunjOlai sArvadhu sadhiREA"----------------------------------> It is good 
to settle down in this dhivya-dhEsam-azhagar koil.
"pOdhavizh malaiyEa puguvadhu poruLEA"---------------------------> It is good 
to enter and settle down here.
"padhiyadhu YEathi"=============================>To apprecaite the greatness of 
this dhviya dhEsam;
"thozhak karudhuvadhEa"----------------------------------------------------> To 
worship;
"valam seidhu nALum maruvudhal vazhakkEa"--------------------> To do 
circusmsribe;
"neRi pada adhuvEa ninaivadhu nalamEA"--------------------------> To think of 
this as a method of worship.

All these are a part of worshipping Him is being stressed.


Second Ten Concluded: Thus,The Lord who is the creator of one and all blessed 
not only Azhwar but also His generations, essayed to grant mOksham which AzhwAr 
rejected on the grounds that it has to given for His sake and not for AzhwAr's. 
The request is always for His thiruvadi.
The qualities which go to establish the supremacy were also discussed. This was 
further strengthened by one utterance and a vision. Finally, the brief 
associated with this world and the greatness of the path and end is also 
emphasised.AzhwAr prescribes the do-s and dont-s for the souls by simple 
formula-Go to thirumAl irunjOlai, settle down there, appreciate and worship 
that dhivya dhEsam and Him, in this second ten- iraNdAm pathu.


(to be continued)
vanamamalai padmanabhan









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:41:22 +0530
From: nsp 
Subject: AchArya Hrhdaym 129


----- 



AchArya Hrdhayam - sUthram 220 Contd.
Second Ten Contd.

Continuing on the second ten of thiru-voi-mozhi it was noted that the Lord who 
is the cause of all the worlds and souls, blessed AzhwAr with knowledge who 
desired for mOksham and nithya sUri ghOshti. AzhwAr became crestfallen on not 
getting this. The Lord poured His affection on Him which flowed down to 
generations of AzhwAr's sambhandhi-s. However, when the Lord tried to grant 
salvation, AzhwAr rejected on the grounds that it should be for His sake and 
not for the sake of AzhwAr and He always required His divine feet, thus 
underlining the nature of both. Further, It was seen that those qualities which 
go to establish the supremacy -parathvam-namely, sagala pala prathathva, 
kAraNathva, shEsha sAyithva, sriyapathithva and saulabhyAdhigaL were seen in 
the thiru-voi-mozhi-s "thiNNan" and "aNaivadhu aravaNai". It was also observed 
that vision by arjunA and an utterance by shivA was shown as another instance 
which go to establish the supremacy of the Lord.
Further,


Text: "pulan aindhu enRu samsAr mOksha sAdhana dhukkAndhra rasam munnAga 
vidhikkiRa andhar guNobAsathai...."

Summary: The Text has to be readjusted and read as
"pulan aindhua engiRa samsAra dhukka, mOsha Anandha, sAdhana rasa.
What do these indicate? The samsAra is greif-stricken.It has to be withered 
off. The mOksham is full of joy. It has to be desired. The auspicious qualities 
of the Lord is very sweet. Unlike other matters where the goal to be achieved 
yields fruits finally, the auspicious qualities which is a part of the 
prabhannan even before attaining salvation gives immense sweetness. Hence, the 
yield foreruns the end, which is a unique aspect in our srevaishNavic 
philosophy. Hence, desire to enjoy His auspcious qualities, prescribes AzhwAr.

The pAsuram
"pulan aindhu mEAzhum poRi aindhu nEngi, 
nalam andham illadhOr nAdhu pugzhuvEr,
alamandhu vEya asuraraich cheRRAn,
pala mundh sEril padimin OvAdhE" thiru-voi-mozhi 2-8-4.

samsAra-dhukka: The first line of the abovementined thiru-voi-mozhip pAsuram " 
pulan aindhu mEzhum poRi aindhum nEngi " directly refers to the sensory organs 
which lead to the temporary materialsitic, worldly and mundane things but 
ultimate grief.

mOksha Anandha: The second line of the pAsuram ---> "nalam andham illadhOr 
nAdu" directly refers to the everlasting happiness in the mOksham.

sAdhana rasa munnAga vidhikkiRa:"pala mundhu sEril padimin". 
The Lord who vanquished the demons" alamandhu vEya asuraraich cheRRAn" will 
remove our hurdles . Hence, approach Him where the means is as sweet as the 
end. How can this be?
The end is to attain the LOrd. He is the means .His auspicious qualities are 
sweet. These are a forerunner for the end. Hence, get this sweetness-which is 
available right from the beginning unlike in other cases, where happiness is 
available only at the end----by approaching HIm, is AzhwAr-s upadhEsam.
(to be continued)
vanamamalai padmanabhan









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:49:21 -0000
From: "bvsheela" 
Subject: Re: Narasimha avatar

SrimatE rAmAnujAya nama:

According to our poorvAchAryas, bhAgavatha apachAram is something 
which Perumal will never forgive. He may fogive apacharams towards 
Himself or Piratti, but never bhAgavatha apacharams. Hiranykashipu's 
bhAgavatha apacharam with respect to Prahlada was beyond all limits. 
Moreover, even after He appeared in the Pillar that Hiranyakashipu 
himself chose, He did not kill him immediately. There was ample time 
for Hiranyakashipu to surrender and ask for forgiveness. But the 
asura did not surrender. Therefore to put an end to the bhAgavatha 
apachAra, He had to take the final step. 

rAmAnuja dAsi

--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Chandra Narasimhan" 
wrote:
> 
..
> During the Narasimha Avatar, where was Sri Lakshmi Piratti. Was she 
not with 
> him? How her
> katatcham not fallen on Hiranyakashup? Does Sriman Narayanan 
covered her 
> here also to avoid
> her katatcham on Hiranyakashyup?
> Can any one highlight on this?
> Adiyen Dasan
> Narasimhan Comandur



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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:39:07 -0500
From: "Balaji Sundarrajan" 
Subject: Narasimha avatar

Your answer makes more sense. I can compare your answer :(1) 
Thirumazhisai alwar encounter
with Easwar , (2) Sri rama,sita encountering with kakasuran


>From: "bvsheela" 
>To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [ramanuja] Re: Narasimha avatar
>SrimatE rAmAnujAya nama:
>
>According to our poorvAchAryas, bhAgavatha apachAram is something
>which Perumal will never forgive. He may fogive apacharams towards
>Himself or Piratti, but never bhAgavatha apacharams. Hiranykashipu's




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azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam


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