Dear Bhagavathas Another rejoinder on the subject from my father that i thought would be helpful to the group in understanding this complex concept. Adiyen Aravindan ----------------------------------------------- I read your latest mails on Sand P, The rejoinder to your FIL?s Thirumaalai quote is very clever and not answerable satisfactorily. It is like Parasara Bhattar asking the Buddhists whether their statement ?Sarvam Sunyam? includes the statement also! If they say yes, the statement disappears and there is thus nothing to argue about. If they say no, then the statement exists and its existence goes against what is stated by them, namely their Sunyavada. This is something like Russell?s paradox.-the liar saying ?everything I assert is false?! Russell can startle you with such puzzles as this-the even numbers are but half of all numbers and yet there are just as many of them as there are numbers, since for every number there is its even double!. >From the limited knowledge that I have I will try to tell you about my thinking on this complex subject. I find Ramanuja?s concept of the soul having limited autonomy- freedom for the first action, difficult to accept. ,purely on the philosophical plane. Let me elaborate on this. B S 2 3 18 says Na atma sruthear nithyatvacha thapyaha. Atma- soul Na- is not created Sruthear-Since Vedas tell so. Tapyaha-from the same Vedas Nithyatva Cha ?Atma is eternal (Is what we understand) This is a very important Sutra which says Soul is eternal and not created. Linking this up with another Mahavakya of the Upanishad Agre?..Ekamaivam adweethiyam we have to say that the Soul is but Brahmam itself. I will now give you briefly how Ramanuja interprets this Sutra. In the beginning Brahmam was One containing Soul and inanimate things in their Atomic or Shukshma form. It willed Let Me become Many . It let out or brought forth the Universe of names and forms of Souls and inanimate things in their Sthula form. This manifestation of B from the shukshma to sthula form is creation In the sthula form, B permeates all souls and inanimate things and acts as the Niyantha or Director or inner Controller. Thus at the time of creation, B is the clay(Ubadhana karanam), Potter ( nimittha karanam) wheel, stick etc( sahakari karanam) and the pot itself( karium) Now coming to this Sutra, Soul indeed is not created if we mean by creation ?one thing becoming another?. That creation is called swaroopa change. In the case of inanimate things that is what happens at the time of creation-Swaroopa changes. But in the case of Soul its swaroopa does not change but only its swabhava. Creation for soul means expansion of its knowledge from the contracted state of its knowledge. Only soul?s knowledge expands by linking itself with body and senses. Since Soul?s swaroopa does not change ,the Sutra says that Soul is not created and that it is eternal In the Sthula state, Inanimate things which are not provided with senses are called Bhogyam- those that are enjoyed Soul with its expanded dharmabutha knowledge given by the senses is the Bhogtha.- that which enjoys Eswara is the controller or Niyantha. B forever has a vishista state. In the Karana state it is having as its Sarira, souls and inanimate things in their atomic or shukshma state. In the kariya state it has as sarira , souls and inanimate things in the changed nama, rupa form ? in the sthula state. Eswara always has soul and inanimate as its prahara- prahara is that which cannot be separated from something. Eswara is prahari. Prahara and prahari cannot be separated and together it is called B. The change that happens- the vikharam- at the time of creation ,is applicable to all the three, namely chit, achit and eswaran. This is difficult to understand-since Niyantha now has ?changed Chit and Achit.?as its Sarira. The chit and achit are parts, ?as it were? of Brahmam- since it is said B is one only, non differentiated. Let me now introduce the relevant B S that talk about Soul and its characteristics as explained in Sri bhashya. There are a total of 35 sutras relating to the soul in BS. They are put in 5 Adhikaranas by Ramanuja in his Sribhashyam.. The adhikaranas are named Atmadhikaranam(1),Gnathikaranam(14),Kartruthadhikaranam(7),Paraayaththadhikaranam(2), and Amsadhikaranam(11). The numbers in brackets indicate the number of sutras in those Adhikaranas.. The sutras are from 2 3 18 to 2 3 52. Apart from this BS talks briefly about Soul?s autonomy in sutras 2 1 34 and 35. Let us see some of the sutras. 2 1 34 B does not have partiality and unkindness since it expects or waits. The explanation goes something like this. B does not drive the soul to act in a particular way. If that is so B can be faulted to be partial and unkind. , since B makes someone to do good and some other to do bad B gives us freedom to take the first step and then directs us to take further steps accordingly. This is the limited autonomy concept. We can also say that our Karma determines our first step, making every action predetermined. If we think like that, we have to say that B expects our Karmic first step before directing us further. Karma thus removes our free will. If we see the next sutra it seems Ramanuja?s concept of limited autonomy or free will for the soul appears not correct. 2 1 35 If you say there no karma in the first birth ,it is not correct, since there is no beginning for the soul. It appears to indicate that the first step we take is onaccount of our Karma- other wise what is the need for mentioning Karma here?Taking the two sutras together,we can say that there is no Free will even in our first step . Soul and karma are eternal and so there is no first sin. This sutra seems to knock down the free will theory. 2 3 40 says that the krittrtvam of Jeeva or soul is a delegated power, delegated by B. 2 3 41 says that B directs the soul depending upon the efforts of the soul, in order to ensure that the Vedic injunctions of dos and donts do not go waste. This seems to indicate granting of free will. If B directs every thing, to whom does the Vedas say Follow Dharma, do not steal, do not lie etc?. God cannot direct Himself Now you can see the confusion. If one gives total directing power to B then there is no free will. There is no question of doing saranagathi to God. But from a practical point it is preferable to assume that we have free will to make sure the dos and donts of Vedas etc are made valid Free will gives a boost to our ego and makes us ambitious to achieve goals in life. Perhaps your FIL can ask the swami who has asked if the act of surrender is on account of our free will or on account of His direction, the question that if every happening is as per His will, why are the Vedas command us to be truthful etc- for whom are those commands? However, I am a ?Deterministic? fellow in the purely philosophical plane . Affly, Appa. --- Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Swamin, > > Yes all is as willed by HIM. The rest swatantryam > and self and all nothing but illusions. > > But, let me put my view on reading vedas and leading > a life of righteousness. > > All these help one concentrate on HIM. He is showing > the way, do this properly, make your mind rest on ME > and ME ALONE, try and try, that is how you got this > Manhood, > and that is the only way to reach higher states. > > Dasan/raghavan > > Vishnu <vsmvishnu@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Dear Sriman Raghavan, > > Then I go by your other mails. It is not swAtantryam > in its real sense but ignorance or thinking that we > are swatantram. This kind of thought that we are > indepenent is called ahankAram in pUrvAchArya texts. > Lord will allow our acts to be accordingly, with > full control on them. He will give us bhakti > whenever He wishes and not by mechanically browsing > vEdas etc., as explained by krshNa and interpreted > by rAmAnuja. > > Nice to see your analysis. > > Dasan > Vishnu > > Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > Swamin, > > Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if > emperuman's swatantryam decides so. > > Dasan/raghvan > > Vishnu wrote: > > --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, rajan s wrote: > > > > Dear All > > > > > > The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is > thus surrendered as > sung by the Azhwar. > > Dear Sriman Soundararajan, > > To be very frank, I do not know whether we have > swAtantryam or > pAratantryam except for going by some concepts. > > Now I will ask you one question. The free will or > swAtantyram is shed > out of our free will or not? > > Dasan > Vishnu > > > The paratantriam is a state of mind. > > > > > > Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lakshmi Narasimhan wrote: > > > > > > Well, > > We have independence(swa). Using that > independence(swa), if we give > > up that very independence then that is > pAratantryam(dependencde). > > adiyen, > > rAmAnuja dAsan > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ramanuja/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > ramanuja-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Your use of Yahoo! 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