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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00120 Oct 2004

 
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Dear Bhagavathas

Another rejoinder on the subject from my father that i
thought would be helpful to the group in understanding
this complex concept.

Adiyen  

Aravindan

-----------------------------------------------

I read your latest mails on Sand P, The rejoinder to
your FIL?s Thirumaalai quote is very clever and not
answerable satisfactorily. It is like Parasara Bhattar
asking the Buddhists whether their statement ?Sarvam
Sunyam? includes the statement also! If they say yes,
the statement disappears and there is thus nothing to
argue about. If they say no, then the statement exists
and its existence goes against  what is stated by
them, namely their Sunyavada. This is something like
Russell?s paradox.-the liar saying ?everything I
assert is false?! Russell can startle you with such
puzzles as this-the even numbers are but half of all
numbers and yet there are just as many of them as
there are numbers, since for every number there is its
even double!.  

>From the limited knowledge that I have I will try to
tell you about my thinking on this complex subject.

I find Ramanuja?s concept of the soul having limited
autonomy- freedom for the first action, difficult to
accept. ,purely on the philosophical plane. Let me
elaborate on this.

 

B S 2 3 18 says Na atma sruthear nithyatvacha
thapyaha.

Atma- soul

Na- is not created

 

Sruthear-Since Vedas tell so.

Tapyaha-from the same Vedas

 Nithyatva Cha ?Atma is eternal (Is what we
understand)

This is a very important Sutra which says Soul is
eternal and not created.

Linking this up with another Mahavakya of the
Upanishad Agre?..Ekamaivam adweethiyam we have to say
that the Soul is but Brahmam itself. I will now give
you briefly  how Ramanuja interprets this Sutra.

 

In the beginning Brahmam was One containing Soul and
inanimate things in their Atomic or Shukshma form. It
willed Let Me become Many . It let out or brought
forth the Universe of names and forms of Souls and
inanimate things in their Sthula form. This
manifestation of B from the shukshma to sthula form is
creation

In the sthula form, B permeates all souls and
inanimate things and acts as the Niyantha or Director
or inner Controller. Thus at the time of creation, B
is the clay(Ubadhana karanam), Potter ( nimittha
karanam) wheel, stick etc( sahakari karanam) and the
pot itself( karium)

Now coming to this Sutra, Soul indeed is not created
if we mean by creation ?one thing becoming another?.
That creation is called swaroopa change. In the case
of inanimate things that is what happens at the time
of creation-Swaroopa changes. But in the case of Soul
its swaroopa does not change but only its swabhava.
Creation for soul means expansion of its knowledge
from the contracted state of its knowledge. Only
soul?s knowledge expands by linking itself with body
and senses. Since Soul?s swaroopa does not change ,the
Sutra says that Soul is not created and that it is
eternal

 

In the Sthula state,

 Inanimate things which are not provided with senses
are called Bhogyam- those that are enjoyed

Soul with its expanded dharmabutha knowledge given by
the senses is the Bhogtha.- that which enjoys

Eswara is the controller or Niyantha. 

 

B forever has a vishista state.

In the Karana state it is having as its Sarira, souls
and inanimate things in their atomic or shukshma
state.

In the kariya state it has as sarira , souls and
inanimate things in the changed nama, rupa form ? in
the sthula state.

Eswara always has soul and inanimate as its prahara-
prahara is that which cannot be separated from
something. Eswara is prahari. Prahara and prahari
cannot be separated and together it is called B.

The change that happens- the vikharam- at the time of
creation ,is applicable to all the three, namely chit,
achit and eswaran. This is difficult to
understand-since Niyantha now has ?changed Chit and
Achit.?as its Sarira.

The chit and achit are parts, ?as it were? of Brahmam-
since it is said B is one only, non differentiated.

 

 

Let me now introduce the relevant B S that talk about
Soul and its characteristics as explained in Sri
bhashya.

There are  a total of 35 sutras relating to the soul
in BS. They are put in 5 Adhikaranas by Ramanuja in
his Sribhashyam.. The adhikaranas are named
Atmadhikaranam(1),Gnathikaranam(14),Kartruthadhikaranam(7),Paraayaththadhikaranam(2),
and Amsadhikaranam(11). The numbers in brackets
indicate the number of sutras in those Adhikaranas..
The sutras are from 2 3 18 to 2 3 52. Apart from this
BS talks briefly about Soul?s autonomy in sutras 2 1
34 and 35. Let us see some of the sutras.

 

2 1 34   B does not have partiality and unkindness
since it expects or waits.

 

 

The explanation goes something like this. B  does not
drive the soul to act in a particular way. If that is
so B can be faulted to be partial and unkind. , since
B makes someone to do good and some other to do bad B
gives us freedom to take the first step and then
directs us to take further steps accordingly. This is
the limited autonomy concept. 

 

We can also say that our Karma determines our first
step, making every action predetermined. If we think
like that, we have to say that B expects our Karmic
first step before directing us further. Karma thus
removes our free will. 

 

If we see the next sutra it seems Ramanuja?s concept
of limited autonomy or free will for the soul appears
not correct.

2 1 35   If you say there no karma in the first birth
,it is not correct, since there is no beginning for
the soul.

 

It appears to indicate that the first step we take is
onaccount of our Karma- other wise what is the need
for mentioning Karma here?Taking the two sutras
together,we can say that there is no Free will even in
our first step .

 

 

Soul and karma are eternal and so there is  no first
sin. This sutra seems to knock down the free will
theory.

2 3 40 says that the krittrtvam of Jeeva or soul is a
delegated power, delegated by B.

2 3 41 says that B directs the soul depending upon the
 efforts of the soul, in order to ensure that the
Vedic injunctions of dos and donts  do not go waste. 

 

This seems to indicate granting of free will. If B
directs every thing, to whom does the Vedas say Follow
Dharma, do not steal, do not lie etc?. God cannot
direct Himself

Now you can  see the confusion. If one gives total
directing power to B then there is no free will. There
is no question of doing saranagathi to God. But from a
practical point it is preferable to assume that we
have free will to make sure the dos and donts of Vedas
etc are made valid

Free will gives a boost to our ego and makes us
ambitious to achieve goals in life. Perhaps your FIL
can ask the swami who has asked if the act of
surrender is on account of our free will or on account
of His direction, the question that if every happening
is as per His will, why are the Vedas command us to be
truthful etc- for whom are those commands?  

However, I am a ?Deterministic? fellow in the purely
philosophical plane .

Affly,

Appa. 


--- Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> 
> Swamin,
>  
> Yes all is as willed by HIM. The rest swatantryam
> and self and all nothing but illusions.
>  
> But, let me put my view on reading vedas and leading
> a life of righteousness.
>  
> All these help one concentrate on HIM. He is showing
> the way, do this properly, make your mind rest on ME
> and ME ALONE, try and try, that is how you got this
> Manhood,
> and that is the only way to reach higher states.
>  
> Dasan/raghavan
> 
> Vishnu <vsmvishnu@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Dear Sriman Raghavan,
> 
> Then I go by your other mails. It is not swAtantryam
> in its real sense but ignorance or thinking that we
> are swatantram. This kind of thought that we are
> indepenent is called ahankAram in pUrvAchArya texts.
> Lord will allow our acts to be accordingly, with
> full control on them. He will give us bhakti
> whenever He wishes and not by mechanically browsing
> vEdas etc., as explained by krshNa and interpreted
> by rAmAnuja.
> 
> Nice to see your analysis.
> 
> Dasan
> Vishnu
> 
> Vijaya Raghavan <svrvan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> 
> Swamin,
> 
> Swtantryam will aim for paratantryam only if
> emperuman's swatantryam decides so.
> 
> Dasan/raghvan
> 
> Vishnu wrote:
> 
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, rajan s wrote:
> > 
> > Dear All 
> > 
> > 
> > The free will or the swatantriam of the soul is
> thus surrendered as 
> sung by the Azhwar.
> 
> Dear Sriman Soundararajan,
> 
> To be very frank, I do not know whether we have
> swAtantryam or 
> pAratantryam except for going by some concepts.
> 
> Now I will ask you one question. The free will or
> swAtantyram is shed 
> out of our free will or not?
> 
> Dasan
> Vishnu
> 
> > The paratantriam is a state of mind.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Azhwar Emberumanar Jeeyar thiruvadigale sharanam.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Lakshmi Narasimhan wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Well,
> > We have independence(swa). Using that
> independence(swa), if we give 
> > up that very independence then that is
> pAratantryam(dependencde).
> > adiyen,
> > rAmAnuja dAsan
> > 
> > 
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