Srimathe ramanujaya Namaha, Dear Sri Venkatesan, Only to clarify this doubt adiyen quoted the sutras from tattvatrayam of Sri Pillai lokacharya. Let adiyen explain the same to an extent. First of all this is a very tough subject to explain and make one understand even by great Srivaishnava acharyas. It is a very daring effort for adiyen to try explaining the same in a foreign language through this email forum. Still let me try what adiyen can, holding on to the divine feet of Sri Parthasarathi emperuman. There are three terms to be understood at the start, 1. jnAthruthvam 2. karthruthvam 3. bhOkthruthvam A achetana object doesnt have any knowledge so it cannot do anything and hence it doesnt enjoy at all. But that is not the case with we jeevatmas. We are blessed with jnanam. Due to the knowledge we are capable to act and our actions fetch us either happiness or sorrow. So we find that karthruthvam and bhOkthruthvam are the resultants of jnAthruthvam. Some (sankyas) started to say that karthruthvam is only for the gunas/prakruthi and not for the jeevatma. But we see that the result sorga/nargangal is not for the gunas but only for the jeevatma. As per the sastras only one who sows ripes the fruit. So the karthruthvam is only for the chetanas. But while analysing if the karthruthvam is the jeevatma's svaroopa? Sri PL answers "sAmsArika pravruththigalil karthruthvam svaroopaprayuktha mandru" The vyakhyanam is "sAmsArika pravruthigalAvana-striannapAnAdhi bhOgangalai uthdEsiththu paNNum vyApArangal, avattril, karthruthvam owpAdhikam AgaiyAlE svaroopa prayuktha mandrenkai" Whatever we do for attaining sexual pleasures, food, water etc is for the sake of the body and hence it is not related with the svaroopa of the jeevatma. Then how did it come to this atma? PL answers "gunasamsargakrutham" It has arised due to the connection of the trigunas-sattvam, rajas, tamas. "sattvam rajas tama ethi gunA: prakruthi sambhavA: " says geethAcharyan. So first it has been proved by PL that karthruthvam is not for prakruthi but only for jeevatma. Then he goes to answer if this karthruthvam is due to svayathyam (self try) or parAyathyam (insticated by others/emperuman) PL "karthruthvam thAn eshvarAdheenam" Whatever the jeevatma does activated by his knowledge is only with the permission of emperuman. Then can we attribute all the wrong things done by the jeevatma to be done due to emperuman's wish? Emperuman allows each jeevatma to act according to his "prathama prayatnam". All jeevatmas are filled with knowledge and hence it can differentiate between the good and the bad. So emperuman initially stays as a judge and allows the jeevatma to act according to his poorvavAsanas. At that time emperuman remains as a neutral person and leaves the jeevatma in its own way not reacting to any of his acts. Then based on the prathama prayatnam emperuman allows the jeevatma to continue in the right or wrong way. So emperuman does give us the chance of act on our own and then only guides us accordingly. So the act of refusal belongs only to the kid. Emperuman stays as a sAkshibhoothan like that of the mother. But one thing has to be kept in mind it is emperuman's wish to leave the jeevatma to act on its own as prescribed in the sastras by emperuman himself. He always has the power to act otherwise. So the final conclusion is everything is emperuman's leela, he is playing a game in this leela vibhooti and if we understand the fine points of the game and surrender to his feet totally then he makes us the winner and sends us to the nithya vibhooti since he knows that there is no point in keeping us still in this game. All mistakes are due to adiyen's weak understanding of the fine concepts so adiyen requests bhagavatas to please forgive and correct me appropriately. If anything is useful in this mail then it is due to the nirheduka krupai of parthasarathi who is clarifying our doubts through adiyen's hands. Azhvar emperumAnAr Jeeyer thiruvadigalE sharaNam Adiyen ramanuja dAsee Sumithra Varadarajan ----- Original Message ----- From: TCA Venkatesan To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 2:24 AM Subject: [ramanuja] Re: Seshatvam and paratantriyam Sri: Dear Smt Sumithra, adiyEn's praNAms. The question here is: "if the kid refuses", is that refusal an act of the Lord too? If so, how is the kid responsible for his faulty behaviour? This is what is being implied by many posts in this group. Hence my question. Elsewhere, Nappinnai writes: "Even if another person behaves badly, or things go wrong, it will have the mindset to think that everything is His grace." This is easy to digest when it is directed toward one's self. But if we witness an act of misbehaviour by a person toward the Lord, or worse, toward a bhAgavata, do we say that it is by His grace too? I think there are lots of questions here on what exactly is nirhetukam and whether the jIva owns any act or is it all the Lord's? adiyEn is reading an article by mahAvidwAn PBA Swami on the concept of nirhetukam. I will try to translate it as best as I can and post it here soon. adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan > Like a mother holding the > hands of a kid and writing a letter on the paper and then > praising the kid for writing correctly emperuman does > everything and grants us moksha. But if the kid refuses > to write at all then the mother either scolds, advices or > sometimes even beats to make the kid write. That is what > emperuman also does. The kid has no free will it is > governed by the mother similar is the case of all > jeevatmas who are none other than the kids of the divine > supreme lord. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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