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SrI:
 I have no arugadai to write on topics like this as I have the  least
knowledge of Vyaakhyanam and it is for this reason the
following can be dismissed. Yet I mustered courage to write this as can be
seen from other ways.

(1) The context of VinnuLaar in 7-1-6.

#  The reference to and the comparison between ViNNuLaar and maNNuLaar shows
that it is between beings on maNNulagam  and beings on Vaanulagam. This
comaparison is plausible, and not the one between beings on mannulagam  and
beings in Vaikuntham as it will be between two incomparables - between those
who are still embodied and those who have attained Release.
On the other hand, if ViNNuLaars are devas, they too then would be embodied
ones like beings on earth and the comparison is possible.

# The entire 7th patthu is about aazhwar's lamentation about why the Lord
should have given the Indriyas and made the beings suffer.

#  In Thirmalai 44, (viNNuLAr viyappa vanthu Anaikku anRu aruLai Intha
kaNNaRAy), the context again shows that it is about created world. Shiva and
Brahma, tapasvis and ViNNulaar have come to see the Lord give salvation to
the elephant. If they had been Vaikuntha vaasis, they must have been WAITING
AT TEH ENTRANCE  of Vaukuntham to receive the elephant! That is how Soozh
visumbhu tells. That was what Kuratthaazhwar told Emperumaanaar when he
asked him why he sought to leave for vaikuntham before him (Ramanuja). The
aazhwar said, those who reach Vaikuntham early would receive those who come
later. It is not right for him to enter Vaikuntham received by
Ramanujacharya there. He (Aazhwar) must be there before him to receive him.
Ramanuja characterised this to be supreme seshatwam. It is in this episode,
3 gems have  been unveiled, 1) acahrya sambhandam gives Vaikuntha praaapthi
to all those connected to him (in aazhwar's extraction (!) of such a
guarantee from the Lord), 2) Vaikuntha vassis receive the entrants with all
honours and 3) seshatwam is of highest order for the vaikuntha vaasi.(to be
elaborated in the next point on adimai.)

# That context matters can be demonstrated by another term also. In
Thirumalai 7,  aazhwar calls Raman as devan - silaiyinaal Ilangai settra
dEvanE dEvan aavaan. Why has aazhwar used this term devan here, which is
generally menat for devas or nithya suris (as per interpretations)? Does he
mean some deva here? No, can't be, because of specific reference to Raman.
But then why should aazhwar refer to Him as devan? Here again the context
gives the clues. In that verse and in general the very thrust of Thirumaalai
is to establish that Arangan is the supreme Lord. MaaRRumOr daivalellaam
daivamaa is the aazhwar's premise on which Thirumaalai has been composed. In
particular, he is taking on the Jains, their ways and how the people have
been misled by them (pl refer the verse and other verses before and after.).
The Jain god is known as Aruga devan. It is to say that their devan is not
devan, but RamanE devan. This is the undersatnding  by context, historical
background and grammar (yE-kaaram is to give stress that Raman alone is the
devan, not others such as Aruga devan.)

(2) Adimai seivaar yaar?
Paramarkku adimai seivaar - everyone both chethanas and achethanas.

# In verse 182 of Vedartha sangraha, we find Ramanuja's definition of sesha
and seshin.
"That whose nature lies solely in being valued through a desire to
contribute a special excellence to another entity is sesha. The other is
seshin, (that is, that to which the subsidiary contributes special
excellence)"

Everything other than Him is seshan as per this, as everything exists for
his preethi. That is why in mumukshuppadi, it is clarified that though the
jiva in the verge of attaining moksham is losing its seshtwam, by God's
leela of destroying that, it continues to think that it is still a seshan
(verse 92)(The jiva should not be just like a mara-k-kattai then. By
refusing to lose seshatwam, bhagavan's enjoyment in 'pidivaadham' in
removing it continues as per this verse- this explanation is mine, not in
any sookthi. "aananadham avan preethikkE"  enbadai edutthaandirukkEn.)

If after becoming mukthan, it thinks that it is not seshan, that is
virOdhi -kainkarya haani (Verse 38). The adimai seidhal in Vaikuntham is of
supreme nature. This is also established by Brahma sutras by implication
(4.4.21), that though the released  jiva experiences equality with the
Brahman, the equality with Him is in enjoyment only. There is no cosmic
activity. Only the Lord rules and controls all the worlds. Though the
Released soul is capable of creating worlds, he is not doing it, because he
is a seshan only. God alone is entitled to do that. Thus the subsidiary
nature of the jiva continues.

# All sentient and non-sentient beings are all seshas, but their awareness
of seshatwam is different for different beings. It is herein the concept of
kshethra- kshethrajan relationship comes.
In the 4 types of created bodies, we can see the gradation that goes upto
vaikuntha vaasis which is explained above.

The sthawara, is not aware of their kshethram, nor the kshethrajyan.
Though paddy is growm in the kshethra or land, it reaches someone else to be
enjoyed as food.

The animals do to some extent realise who their kshethrajyan is, like the
calf that goes after the mother cow, but not aware of the pita - the
kshethrajyan who was responsible for its birth.

The men, (we) are aware of the kshethrajyan, the father as generator and
mother as pretector in womb.
The best among men realise who the real kshethrajyan is, namely the Lord.
It is these people, who adore Him by doing adimai to Him.
 The adimai seidhal begins at this level. But at other levels too, the
adimai seidhal happens - by His grace ( at man's level too, by His grace
only - even Vaikuntham pugudhalum vidhi vazhi  as per 'soozh visumbhu' and
it is He who chooses says, upanishads.) Like when He turned a blade of grass
into Brahmaastra and a stone into woman. Even a non-sentient thing like
stone is a seshan by its being able to contribute to His special excellence,
by His own action.Even other wise all sentient and non-sentient things exist
only to add special excellence to Him by being the part of his scheme of
creation.The difference is whether they are aware of it or not.

Coming to the next level,  devas, they hold their offices purely by command
of Him and for His preethi to keep creation happening and going. From
Brahamadevan onwards, all the devas contribute to the special excellence of
the Seshin by doing their duties as ordained by Him. The kind of
organisational structure conceived by the Lord can never be disturbed. The
Lord had intervened to restore it whenever some bhangam has happened to the
office of Indra or any other deva. This goes to show that their subsidiary
nature continues with heightened awareness level and He alone is the
protector to them too.

Kuratthaazhwar's seshatwan to His master is of supreme type that he was
ready to leave him and his company here on earth, only to enable himself to
receive  him in Vaikuntham instead of facing a situation when his master
will have to receive him.

(3) The basic thrust therefore in our sampradhaya is not just glorification
of Sriman Narayan, but glorification of Him as seshi to everything other
than Him. That is why  we say dasan, adiyen for every moocchu. That is why
Ramanuja even rejects the concept of defining Seshin as some one to be aimed
at. (refer VS 181). Instead he refers to contributing to the master as the
nature of sesha, which in Tamil is adimai seidhal. Naichchiam or humility is
the basis of this and naichchiyam in karma is giving up doership which
ultimately the Lord advises us to do by 'sarva dharmaan parithyajya'.When
one gives up the doership one acknowledges one's subsidiariness. That is
what the Vaiikunthavaasis do even in / as their nithya kainkaryam to Lord.
MaamunigaL says that the swaroopa- anuroopa thought of the mukthan is his
virOdhi. Kainkaryam is the only nature there. Whereas 'NIyum vittal' and
'etthinaal idar kadal kidatthi' best describe seshatwam of chethana in
bondage.

(4) Parama pada
# Ramanuja's description of this in VS 208 & 209 once again reiterates that
it is abode of Perfectness. His conclusion is " all these three (the highest
realm, the pure status of the individual and the Lord) are the supreme
ideals to be attained." These 2 verses convey that it is an  abode of
eternal perfections. These have been veiled by the jiva's karma. But once
the karma is crossed, it is purity and perfectness for the jiva. There is
just no place for a shred of imperfectness. But acharyas have visualised
about mukthan getting virOdhi bhava, only to highlight that one can not
think that 'ha,  I am great now that i am a mukthan.' The fact is that he
still continues to be His seshan.

#  If it is said that a mukthan gets this virOdhi bhava and is afflicted
with 5 senses or torments of some kind which we humans can not visualise,
then that means we are undermining God Himself and His guarantee
"mokshayiswami" and counsel "maa shu cha:" He is one who never says anything
twice. "dwir na abibhashathE". Oru sol - that is His way. When He has
committed all this to you, will He go back? It is neat job as far as He is
concerned. Entry into paramapadam? yes, once you are perfect. Once entered,
don't worry, the very place is Anandham. No going back.. no looking back  If
He allows you to get tormented, then it means you have not yet reached His
abode! Any vyakhyanam to the effect that it is otherwise,  is to be seen as
repeated stress by our acharyas that we must NEVER NEVER FORGET  the
swaroopa as a SESHAN for  jiva and / or for  mukthan (for mukthas). By all
means it is andamil pErinbam only, by aazhwar vaakku.

Another proof. Once He has pervaded you, "mutthanaar mukundanaar pugundhy
nammuL mevinaar", will He reverse it? He won't. This is what aazhwars have
assured us. This is what is the conclusionof Vedanta as told in Brahma
sutras.

(5) This brings  the equation Brahma sutra = Aruli cheyal.

#  Nowhere aazhwar sookthis run contrary to Brahma sutras. Ramanuja used to
explain Brahma sutras by prabhandam. "PrabhandangaLai-k-kondu Sri
bhashyaththil  sutra-artthangaL vorunga viduvaar enbadu prasiddham".
MaamugaL's predecessor, Sri Thiruvaimozhi-p-pillai also used to do
kaalakshebahm of Brahma sutras by drawing inputs from Aruli cheyal. They
used to describe jivathma swaroopam from aazhwar's prabhandam , like
Thirukkottiyur nambhi's "adiyEnuLLaan" to describe well the nature of jiva
and jiva's relationship with the Lord. Aruli cheyal was considered as
"parama upahaaram" by acharyas since "theliyaada marai nilangaL
theLigindrOmE" (we are able to understand the unknown / difficult ones  by
them) when expalining difficult passages of vedanta.

#  But the heirachy that Ramanuja ascribed to it after Brahma sutras is not
to undermine it. It si like brahma sutras are for gyana yogam and aruLi
cheyal for Bahkthi yogam. Knowledge in the form of Bhakthi which is the
cause for moksham is Ramanuja's conclusion in Vedartha sangraha. Azzwar's
sookthis are expression of bhakthi, whereas Brahma sutras are expression of
gyana yajna (refer Gita 4th chapter). AruLi cheyal are vedas, and proof for
this is vast as given by Purvacharyas. But outside their province, let me
give another proof. Vedas are just for mananam and recitation. In VS,
Ramanuja explains how the sound and words of vedas are eternal and
imperishable,  thereby making it possible to retrieve it after every kalpa
when they are lost.  He has not gone into meanings of Vedas, but rather
quoted upanishads only, in Sri bhashyam. It is because they are powerful to
invoke any god and get any benefit. (This has been scientifically proved in
research in agni hotra whereby it was found that words, not their meanings
have caused the desired effects.)

Similar effect has been seen in recital of just 10 paasurams of the 4000.
Naadhanukku naalaayiram uraittha 'kaNNinum siru-th-thaambu' is a prathyaksha
pramana for how and why Aruli cheyal is vedam. It is by continuous
recitation (not contemplation of the meaning) that he was able to retrieve
all the 4000 verses.

The bhakthi rasam of aazhwars demonstrate their gyana yogam. The gyana yogi
grows in bhakthi on knowing more and more about Him. Gyanam is the primary
attribute (once again this is a vast topic which I am not detailing, but
just restricting myself by quoting  'satyam, gyanam anantham' which is
analysed to  show that knowing is seeing god,  knowing is meditation and
Knowledge is luminosity which is Brahman Himself -which Ramanuaj has
explained in his bhashyam to the first verse in Barhma sutras.) by which
Bhakthi grows as 'the continuous flow of oil without any gap'. Once in
bhakthi, the gyaanam also thrives as we see Aruli cheyal (gyana chudar
yEtrinEn naaranarkku). Thus they go hand in hand. Remember Rajaji's
introduction to Sahasra nama by M.S. "it is enough to say that gyaana and
bhakthi are one and the same."

In this way, the 'mudibu' of Brahma sutras and 'mudibu' of AruLi cheyal are
one and the same. Differences or contradictions can not exist between them,
but if are perceived so, they have to be answered by refering to the gyana
khandam, which is Brahma sutras here. But that we have so far not come
across any difference between AruLi cheyal and Brahma sutras is what we can
realise if we go through the root and substance of the mails exchanged in
this regard.

Regards.






____________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 20:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
   From: TCA Venkatesan <vtca@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: viNNuLAr

Sri:
Srimathe Ramanujaya Nama:

Dear devotees,

The following is entirely adiyEn's interpretation
and is not based on any acharyas vyakhyanams or
position. So kindly forgive my transgression if
you choose to read forward.


The question arose out of the pasuram Thiruvaymozhi
7.1.6 and then moved on to other areas (of who nithya
sUris are and their differences with other devas etc).

adiyEn will fall back to the original question.

The pasuram in question is:

viNNuLAr perumARkadimai seyvAraiyum seRum aimpulan ivai
maNNuL ennaip peRRAl en seyyAmaRRu nIyum vittAl?
paNNuLAy! kavi thannuLAy! paththiyinuLLAy! paramIsanE
vandhen kaNNuLAy! nenjchuLAy! solluLAy! onRu sollAyE

Here the original question was on, who is meant by
the term 'viNNULAr' and if they are vaikunta vAsi's
how is that they are they affected by the five senses?

I think instead of looking at the one line alone,
one needs to look at the thrust of the whole pasuram.

First, can the viNNuLArs be anyone other than
vaikunta vAsis? Without going into the vyakhyanam,
I think we can say that they are indeed that, based
on the next qualification given - 'perumARkku adimai
seyvAr'. It is highly doubtful that Azhvar would
qualify beings from any other lOka with that
adjective. Because, if one allows that for other
lOkas then we too could stake claim to that - true
kainkarya paras. And we all know how absurd that
would be.

Let's look at another pasuram: "viNNuLAr viyappa
vanthu Anaikku anRu aruLai Intha kaNNaRAy!". Here
too, the viNNuLArs are said to be those in parama
padam.

A different term used: "vAnuLAr aRiyalAgA vAnavA".
Here too the vAnuLArs are said to be those in
Sri Vaikuntam.

Why? Because, the push behind all this is the fact
that everyone of Azhvars words - in fact, the thrust
of our entire sampradhayam - is the glorification of
Lord Sriman Narayana. To say that some devas in
other lOkas do not realize the Lord is to say
nothing. It is stating the obvious. It is when we
say that even those in paramapadam do not
understand Him or cannot fathom His acts, that
we tend to somewhat realize the grandeur and
greatness of the Lord.

So, with that viewpoint, let's look at the pasuram
in question.

If Azhvar mentioned that pull of the senses on some
devas in some lOkas, which is an expected feature,
then the pasuram loses its full point. This is
neither satisfactory from a philosophical sense
nor is it satisactory from a poetic sense.

However, if we were to say that even paramapada
vAsis are potential targets to these five senses,
then what chance do we, who are in this world,
stand against them - if He does not come to our
aid ('nIyum vittAl')? Now, our total incapacity
to save ourselves and our total dependency on the
Lord is made clear.

The question, then, is, are the beings there truly
targets to the 'aimpulan' and if so, how does it
work with what the Vedas say.

One way we can reconcile this is that it is poetic
exaggeration. One made to bring the immensity of
our dependency on Him.

However, if we look at Mumukshuppadi, perhaps we
can get a clue. Pillai Lokachariar does point
out 'kankaryaththil kaLai'. He says that a 'virOdhi'
to even mukthAthmas exists. And when a virOdhi
exists, it means that they are swayed by something.
Perhaps, they are not the same five senses to which
we are subject. Nevertheless, there is something
that can possibly move them out of their true
nature of service to Him for His pleasure only.

Why would such a virOdhi exist? Perhaps it does to
distinguish us from Him. He has no virOdhis and has
no desires. However, we do have one desire
("kaNNanukkE Amathu kAmam") and we do have a
virOdhi to our service. I may be wrong - but I
don't think that there is any pramANam for this in
the Vedas either.

Finally, one thought. In our sampradhayam, one does
not look for pramANams for Azhvars words. It is
Azhvars words themselves that are pramANam; just
like the Vedas. They are indeed the Thamiz Vedham.
Due to His infinite and unconditional grace, they
have been blessed with unique vision and knowledge
('mayarvu aRa mathi nalam aruLap peRRavarkaL').
There are many stories and characters in Azhvars
works which do not find a place in any known purANa
or itihAsa. Nevertheless we accept them as divine
visions seen by Azhvars; no less than what Valmiki
Bhagavan saw. It is in this vein that we have to
treat Azhvars words.

Once again, adiyEn seeks the forgiveness of the
devotees for any and all transgressions made in
the above statements.

adiyEn madhurakavi dAsan












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