Dear Sriman Venkatesh, Well said. I concur with you totally. Adiyen, Dasan, Ramanujam ---------------------------------------- > To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > From: vinjamoor_venkatesh@xxxxxxxxx > Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:58:22 +0000 > Subject: Re: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam > > srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha > srImadh varavara munayE namaha > > Dear All, > > For some time now, I have been a passive follower of this list after > my initial contributions. But this mail from Smt Charchita, made me > think that I have to reply. > > The question posed by Smt Charchita is very correct and straight > forward. Instead of giving tangential replies, let us admit that we > are discriminating. This is a fact. No amount of examples on the > origins of Varnasrama dharma will justify this. > > Just think about this. How many of us bow our heads and fold our > hands, in front of a Non-Brahmin Srivaishnavite (They are called > Bhagavathas in ThiruvallikkEni and Kanchipuram) even before they do > it to us. I see a very handful of us doing this. > > Smt Charchita, your question is very correct. I support your views. > How many discriminations, in our own Srivaishnava society? Within the > Brahmin Srivaishnavas, they say that a particular family is of lower > status than another. How absurd? > > Well just to summarize an answer, we brahmins dont want to let go of > their ego. We all talk a lot about Ramanujar holding Pillai > Urangaavilli Daasar's hands after bath, Bhattar taking the Sripaadha > theertham of a person belonging to a fourth varna, Periya Nambigal > doing the anthima samskAram for Vilaanchola Pillai et al. But in > reality we don't want to do it. It is nothing but ego. > > Truly, there are a whole lot of Non-Brahmin Srivaishnavites, who > knows the Prabhandams totally compared to a Brahmin Srivaishnavite. > But still they will be treated as a low caste fellow. Shame on our > ego. > > Instead of taking the meaning of this pAsuram directly, we try to > twist it to suit our whims and fancies. It is not only this pAsuram, > there are pAsurams from ThirumAlai by Thondaradippodi AzhwAr. They > also talk about this in the same vein. 1) "amaravOr angam ARum...." > 2) "pazhudilA vozhugalAtRu.." are nothing but a few of such pAsurams. > > I believe, it is high time we let go of our "yAdhAnum paTRi neengum > viradham" attitude in this matter and give them the due respect. > > Finally, I can say only one thing. Anybody who discrimates, based on > caste, amongst the Srivaishnavas, doesn't have any right to talk > about AzhwArs and AcharyAs and hence their work. This is my humble, > if not arrogant, opinion. > > AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan > Thirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh > > > --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta" > <acharyatvsr@...> wrote: > > > > Please do some more deeper study. Vaysyas are Upaveetas and can > learn and recite Vedas. > > Ramanujam. > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > To: ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > From: epd40@... > > > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:54:06 +0000 > > > Subject: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam > > > > > > Dear All, > > > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being > raised by > > > one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam. > > > I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our > people > > > to clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I > had > > > given. > > > > > > Question by my Kin: > > > > > > "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion > > > list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the > > > answer for this. Do anyone of you have? > > > > > > Respected Sir, > > > kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu, > > > etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum, > > > valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar, > > > adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE. > > > If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he > belongs > > > to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your > > > lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted > the > > > explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja.org. > > > > > > Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my > > > intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to > > > whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. > Then > > > why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we > > > discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great > devotees of > > > lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they > > > belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and > shri > > > vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what > > > shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the > > > society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high > > > caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should > be > > > made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee > of > > > shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam > > > emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the > main > > > reason that our sampradaayam's message is not widely spread. If by > > > mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am > > > extremely sorry for that. > > > > > > with regards > > > charchita > > > > > > Answer: > > > Dear Charchita > > > The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could > not > > > be confused here. > > > Varnasrama Dictates Rules For > > > 1) Individual's Work in society > > > a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from > face > > > of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting > it, > > > and spreading it. By no means they can enter > > > i) Trade > > > ii) Warfare > > > iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement > > > b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let > the > > > rajans rule the world. They should > > > i) Conquer and control teritories > > > ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them > > > iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his > teritory > > > c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade > and > > > earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far > off > > > and bring money. > > > i) They cannot learn/preach vedas > > > d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people > do > > > the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building > > > assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly > responsible for > > > any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective > of > > > society. They can > > > a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill > animals > > > and move from places to places. > > > Now the key point is Narayana bhakta > > > He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which > come > > > by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu, > > > If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its > solely the > > > fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya > > > Instances: > > > Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana > > > sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali > dasar > > > (4th caste person) > > > Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for > perumal > > > fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife. > > > Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were > > > deciding people of sampradaya, > > > Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of > rahasya Sri > > > vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora > kulothama > > > dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala > > > vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who > did the > > > kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal. > > > Points: > > > We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri > > > vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the > > > faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we > dont > > > call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure > sampradayam > > > is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam > > > http://www.vedics.net > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Share your special moments by uploading 500 photos per month to > Windows Live Spaces > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0100000001msn/direct/01/? > href=http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx > > > > > > > > > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam > http://www.vedics.net > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam http://www.vedics.net Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ramanuja/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ramanuja/join (Yahoo! 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