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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00107 Oct 2006

 
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Dear all, praNAmams

     I 100% agree with Sri Tirumalai Vinjamoor Venkatesh swAmin's
statements about respecting bhaagavataas or, as he put it, "anything
or anyone wearing the thirumaN".  (Of course I am sure no-one has
forgotten that as human beings, even those *without* thirumaNs deserve
our respect as amshas of Him!)

     There seems to be a suggestion that although we can respect the
aatma of a bhaagavata, interdining and intermarriage somehow does not
enter into that (i.e. it is OK to discriminate on those grounds). 
Might I suggest that this viewpoint only considers the situation in
India and perhaps does not look at the bigger picture.

     Suggesting that eating with someone of a different caste is
polluting is, in my view nothing but discriminatory.  Of course eating
off the plate of a dog is most probably not a good idea because a dog
has no concept of hygiene etc.  but to suggest that dining alongside a
fellow human being who happens to be born in a different jaati is in
any way defiling is, to me, suggesting somehow that they are
sub-human. Didn't Ramanujacharya's desire to eat the remains of one of
his "lower" caste acharyas prove this point, or the episode where one
of the (brahmin) acharyas (I forget which) did not want any vedic
rites to sanctify his new home, since an esteemed bhagavata of
fourth-varNa had simply walked in the place and thus already
sanctified it?

    I know that in India people will make all sorts of assumptions
that "people of other castes have different eating habits, might eat
non-veg, etc., so we shouldn't eat with them" or arguments about
"previous births etc" but what if this bhaagavata is a strict
vegetarian, follows his anushtaanam etc. - on what grounds can we
still support such interdining restrictions then?  And how can those
of us in the west simultaneously say this while going to our office
jobs and sitting alongside our white colleages, chatting away happily,
while not giving the same respect to someone of a so-called "shuudra"
jaati back in India?  The same goes for marriage.  I am not saying
"it's OK", I am just asking, why this arbitrary distinction between
"paying respects to a bhaagavata" and "eating with/marrying them"?  Is
it not simplistic to distinguish between the two issues?

    I would suggest that to understand why this is a narrow
perspective, one only needs to look at ISKCON (regardless of other
disputes of doctrine etc), where their priests (white
europeans/americans, or "mlecchas" according to some) have been given
upaveetam etc. and live according to more strict standards of
anushtaanam, aachaaram etc. than probably many of us.  On what grounds
could we even justify not eating with/marrying with them?  Saying that
"it is in the shaastras and therefore bhagavAn's command" seems to me
a convenient way of avoiding discussing the issue.  Let's not forget,
some of those so-called "shaastras" contain statements like "the
shuudra is verily like a cemetery, unfit for any holy sacrament" and
"he should be given a name expressing something contemptible", let
alone passages saying that "molten lead should be poured in their ears
if they hear the Veda".  If the Varnaashrama dharma that we are
talking about from these texts (Manusmriti, Gautama dharmashaastra et
al), how can we even *dream* of simultaneously calling ourselves
Vaishnavas, while defending rules coming from such texts?  Are the
above statements not intrinsically disrespectful to *fellow human
beings*, let alone bhAgavatALs?  How can such a fundamental conflict
ever be resolved?

    Any clarifications or corrections to statements much appreciated,
and sorry if anything has caused offence in the above.

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
namO nArAyaNAya
praNAmams,
Ranjan

--- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "vinjamoor_venkatesh"
<vinjamoor_venkatesh@...> wrote:
>
> srImathE rAmAnujAya namaha
> srImadh varavara munayE namaha
> 
> Dear Sri Dasarathi,
> 
> First of all what is the use of this Varnasrama Dharma? If we dwell a 
> little, we will find that the Varnashrama was created, based entirely 
> on the profession. Later it emanated to be hereditary. That's all the 
> truth. You can see this even today. Almost, in the last 50 years 
> atleast, there is trend that the doctor's son is a doctor, engineer's 
> son is an engineer etc. Also there are certain unwritten rule 
> (dharma) how a doctor should behave and so do the engineers. If a 
> society can have a pattern in 50 years, we are talking about a 
> practice that is much more than 5000 yrs old. So, the dharma of 
> Varnashrama is only a set of rules on the behavioural aspects.
> 
> Sticking to Varnashrama is fine but I believe, the whole point of 
> discussion is to respect fellow Srivaishnavas irrespective of their 
> Caste or Creed. 
> 
> Also I am unable to agree with the "atma guna poorthi" aspect. Why 
> should we try to respect only those Bhagavathas who have "atma guna 
> poorthi"? First, are all the Brahmin Srivaishnavas having - "atma 
> guna poorthi"? Very difficult to answer. Barring a few, how many of 
> us worship nobody other than Sriman Narayanan. The basic "atma guna" 
> or characteristics of a SriVaishnavaite (sEshathvam and 
> pArathanthriyam). I know of many Brahmin Srivaishnavites, who to this 
> date, claim that they belong to a very high caste and all, but side 
> by side go to some Amman temple or Siva temple for a "nErthi" on the 
> pretext that they were their "kuladeivam". How many such fallacies do 
> we have? I am not saying all here, but definitely a whole lot.
> 
> 1. I would say, please respect any one and any thing that 
> has "thirumAn" on them or it. 
> 
> 2. Don't humiliate them. Fold your hands with heads down, on seeing a 
> Srivaishnava, even if he is an arrogant one. We are no less either. 
> 
> 3. When great Acharyas like Sri Alavandar can say "aparAdha sahasra 
> bhAjanam, pathitham ...."(I have committed thousands of sins and am a 
> pathithan" and "amaryAdha: shudra: chalamathi: asooya: ......" (I am 
> arrogant showing a lot of disrespect to others and so on), can we 
> ever say that we even qualify to talk about the "atma guna". Sorry 
> this is not meant as an offence at you, but a generic note.
> 
> I get tears in my eyes when we say "kArEi karuNai irAmAnusA...". Why 
> do we equate his kindness to the clouds? AmudhanAr had the same tears 
> in his eyes, after hearing the news of Emperumanar's kindness by 
> letting out the rahasya of Thirumanthiram so that every other being 
> can go to Paramapadham. Here again, his target was everyone and just 
> about everyone irrespective of caste, creed etc. While we can't 
> actually, shouldn't we atleast try to emulate our great Acharya.
> 
> This is the best respect that we can show to a fellow bhAgavatha. 
> 
> AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE saraNam
> adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
> 
> Correction: In my earlier mail I wrote that Periya Nambi did anthima 
> samskAram for viLAnchOla piLLai. It is not viLAnchOla piLLai but 
> mAranEr nambi. Sorry for this confusion.
> 
> 
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ellayavilli Dasarathy <epd40@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Ramanujam
> > I correct my stance wrt vaishyas as pointed by you. Apart from 
> that, could some thing more be dwelled upon srivaishanava kula 
> poorthi.
> > I want to highlight this at this juncture particulary for atma 
> gnana and not sarira sampanda we intend to have with fellow 
> srivaishnavas.
> > What I mean by this is, restrictions on varnasrama dharma are not 
> to be refuted rather, when it comes to exchange of atma guna poorthi, 
> > what should be the stance of a srivaishnava. A practical question. 
> Today a handful of few might have knowledge on srivachanabushanam 
> either because of its greatness or because of a reader's biasedness 
> on it, since it was being commentaried by our acharyan (Maamunigal). 
> > But the overall is, 
> > Do our vaishnava kulam shows the same strength in atma guna poorthi 
> towards a bhagavatha when he is having sampradaya gnana in thoughts 
> and deeds
> > Question might be, today's srivaishnavas are not like emperumanar 
> or pillai uranga villi dasar or maraner nambi so we cant find whether 
> a bhagavata is having atma guna poorthi. Hence lets all stick on to, 
> varnasrama even in sampradaya pravachanam and samvadams (discourses 
> and discussions).
> > But the catch to this point is, 
> > we accord the same respect of emperumanar/ 72 simasanadhipadis, to 
> the current emperumanar sthanams, as well as acharya purushas just 
> because of thier lineage whereas,
> > a srivaishnava nigraham occurs (no exchange of atma guna / bhrama 
> gnana) if he fails to fall within the bhramana kulam
> > To worsen this, in the name of aacharam various standards have 
> evolved within groups of srivaishnavam. Here the objective is,
> > 1) Not to mocker at our existing reality since I also belong to the 
> part of reality (Srivaishnava kulam)
> > but, try making the objective of sri vaishnava guna poorthi 
> expected by Manavala maamunigal and Pillai lokacharyar a reality and 
> truly not at the cost of ignoring manusmrithi or varnasrama and
> > 2) To evolve a common acharam for both atma gunam and varnasramam
> > So question boils down to
> > Correct questions:
> > 1) How to treat a srivaishnava sreshta who is full with atma guna 
> poorthi irrespective of thier belongings
> > 2) How to exchange atma gnana with them
> > 3) What would be the standard for aacharam for a srivaishnava 
> abiding with Varnasramam.
> > And the question never intends to (Wrong Question)
> > 1) How to do inter caste marriages
> > 2) How to dine equally with all everywhere. 
> > because, marriage involves anushtana poorthi for a srivaishnava 
> (Gruhastashramam) and just not emotional or physical attachment
> > Please let us have the  right questions (Correct Questions 1 2 and 
> 3) and not the (Wrong Question) as objectives.
> >  adiyen
> > Ramanuja dasan Dasarathy Elayavilli Ponnappan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Ramanujam Varada Srinivasa Thatta <acharyatvsr@>
> > To: Dasarathy <ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 11 October, 2006 11:02:26 AM
> > Subject: RE: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > 
> > 
> >     
> >             Please do some more deeper study. Vaysyas are Upaveetas 
> and can learn and recite Vedas.
> > 
> > Ramanujam.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- -
> > 
> > > To: ramanuja@yahoogroup s.com
> > 
> > > From: epd40@yahoo. co.in
> > 
> > > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:54:06 +0000
> > 
> > > Subject: [sri ramanuja] Caste Creed and Varna in Srivaishnavam
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Dear All,
> > 
> > > A subtle thought process in the lineage of a question being 
> raised by
> > 
> > > one of my kin. Question pertains to varnasrama in Srivaishnavam.
> > 
> > > I had few thoughts with respect to the question. I request our 
> people
> > 
> > > to  clarify, correct any mistakes with pramanam for the answers I 
> had
> > 
> > > given.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Question by my Kin:
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > "The below thing I wrote when I was a part ramanuja.org discussion
> > 
> > > list. I didn't get any answer for this. Still I am searching the
> > 
> > > answer for this. Do anyone of you have?
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Respected Sir,
> > 
> > > kulanthaangu saathikaL naalilum keezizinthu,
> > 
> > > etthanai nalanthaa nilaathasaN daaLasaN daaLarka Laakilum,
> > 
> > > valanthaangu sakkarath thaNNal maNivaNNaR kaaLenRuL kalanthaar,
> > 
> > > adiyaar thammadi yaarem madikaLE.
> > 
> > > If an individual is a devotee of Lord Vishnu, then, even if he 
> belongs
> > 
> > > to a lowly caste, you must consider his devotee's devotee as your
> > 
> > > lord. I'm quoting this paasuram from tiruvaymoli. I have quoted 
> the
> > 
> > > explaination from our own web site www.ramanuja. org.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Whatever i understood from the above paasuram according to my
> > 
> > > intellect is that if a person is a devotee of shriman naarayan to
> > 
> > > whatever castes he/she belongs should be given enough respect. 
> Then
> > 
> > > why in our sampradaayam it is so that in the name of achaaram we
> > 
> > > discriminate among our own people. Even if they are great 
> devotees of
> > 
> > > lord naarayan they are not given enough respect just because they
> > 
> > > belong to low caste. I have seen many people who are brahmins and 
> shri
> > 
> > > vaishnava but they do not follow any rules and regulations of what
> > 
> > > shri vaishnava should follow.But even then they get respect in the
> > 
> > > society as well as by high intellectuals since they belong to high
> > 
> > > caste. Should it be not like this that the discrimination should 
> be
> > 
> > > made only on this basis whether a particular person is a devotee 
> of
> > 
> > > shriman naarayan or not rather than caste.Is our sampradaayam
> > 
> > > emphasize on casteism. I also felt that casteism is one of the 
> main
> > 
> > > reason that our sampradaayam' s message is not widely spread. If 
> by
> > 
> > > mistake i have written something wrong due to ignorance then i am
> > 
> > > extremely sorry for that.
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > with regards
> > 
> > > charchita
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Answer:
> > 
> > > Dear Charchita
> > 
> > > The message is apt but the concept of varnasrama should or could 
> not
> > 
> > > be confused here.
> > 
> > > Varnasrama Dictates Rules For
> > 
> > > 1) Individual's Work in society
> > 
> > >      a) Bhramins - Bhramanosya Mookam aaseeth. Bhramins come from 
> face
> > 
> > > of vishnu. Let them be responsible for learning Vedas, chanting 
> it,
> > 
> > > and spreading it. By no means they can enter
> > 
> > >       i) Trade
> > 
> > >       ii) Warfare
> > 
> > >       iii) Cultivation or any means of procurement
> > 
> > >   b) Kshatriya - Baaho rajanya krutaha: By the muscle power let 
> the
> > 
> > > rajans rule the world. They should
> > 
> > >      i) Conquer and control teritories
> > 
> > >     ii) Learn Vedas and not teach / preach them
> > 
> > >     iii) Be the sole properitor of wealthiest items in his 
> teritory
> > 
> > >  c) Vaysya - Vaysyo Dhana samridhasyad - Let the merchants trade 
> and
> > 
> > > earn money. Let them use thier strength in thighs to travel far 
> off
> > 
> > > and bring money.
> > 
> > > i) They cannot learn/preach vedas
> > 
> > > d) Shudra - Shudra sukam avapnuyaad - Let the fourth caste people 
> do
> > 
> > > the job of line men, agriculture, hunting and all work of building
> > 
> > > assisting kings in army. Thereby they are not directly 
> responsible for
> > 
> > > any decisions but enable decision makers to fulfill the objective 
> of
> > 
> > > society. They can
> > 
> > > a) Have multiple marriages, have food without bath, can kill 
> animals
> > 
> > > and move from places to places.
> > 
> > > Now the key point is Narayana bhakta
> > 
> > > He who is intrested in bhramagnana is above these 4 castes which 
> come
> > 
> > > by birth and has to be respected alteast equivalent to vishnu,
> > 
> > > If currently bhramins/ sri vaishanavas are not doing it its 
> solely the
> > 
> > > fault of the individuals and not that of the sampradaya
> > 
> > > Instances:
> > 
> > > Ramanuja before bath used to hold hands of mudaliyandan (Bhramana
> > 
> > > sreshta)and later after bath hold the hand of pillai uranga vali 
> dasar
> > 
> > > (4th caste person)
> > 
> > > Nampillai called one dasar to submit the food he prepared for 
> perumal
> > 
> > > fearing the atma guna poorthi of his second wife.
> > 
> > > Lot of instances where disciples were of 4th caste but they were
> > 
> > > deciding people of sampradaya,
> > 
> > > Our great Acharyan Manavala maamunigal got the greatest of 
> rahasya Sri
> > 
> > > vachana bushana from the mouth of an acharya called koora 
> kulothama
> > 
> > > dasar who by his birth is the care taker of burial ground (Sandala
> > 
> > > vargam). Note: Please correct the name of our poorvacharya who 
> did the
> > 
> > > kalakshepam of Srivachana bhushanam to maamunigal.
> > 
> > > Points:
> > 
> > > We have to take sree pada theertham from the lotus feet of any sri
> > 
> > > vaishnava of any caste if he shows atma guna poorthi. abiding the
> > 
> > > faith on manavala maamunigal and ramanuja if we fail to do so we 
> dont
> > 
> > > call ourself sri vaishnava and because of hypocrats pure 
> sampradayam
> > 
> > > is getting dis illusioned as the caste oriented system. 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > > Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam 
> > 
> > > http://www.vedics. net
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > >  
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> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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