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Ramanuja List Archive: Message 00058 Sep 2004

 
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Dear mohan Ramanujan  only 15 anvakas in the  Sri Sooktham  next line
Palastuthi  how is ricite Sri sooktham they will get hors  , cow ,wealth
Yassuchif P rayathobhoothva  Juhuyaatajyamanvham  Sooktam Panchadasaasyancha
Srikaamassathatham Japeth

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 1:10 PM
Subject: [ramanuja] Digest Number 876


>
> There are 11 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Doubt about Sri Suktam
>            From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       2. Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Response on queries - Part 2
>            From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
>       3. Nithya Grantham
>            From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       4. Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Reponse to the query -Part 1
>            From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
>       5. Jitanta stotram
>            From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>       6. Re: Krishna and Gopikas
>            From: "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>       7. Re: (Ramanuja) sEshatwam & pArathanthiryam
>            From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
>       8. A Peep into Peirya Thriu-mozhi 9
>            From: Padmanabhan <aazhwar@xxxxxxxx>
>       9. Krishna and Gopikas - Court Case and Resolution
>            From: Pattangi <danp@xxxxxxx>
>      10. Re: Digest Number 856
>            From: "vaidhehi_nc" <nappinnai_nc@xxxxxxxxx>
>      11. Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Response on queries- Concluding part
>            From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: 9 Sep 2004 12:19:25 -0000
>    From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Doubt about Sri Suktam
>
> Dear BhAgavatas,
>
> I have seen people reciting Sri Suktam only upto 15 anuvakas. From 16th
onwards (i.e. from "yah Shuchi......)they don't recite upto some anuvakas.
Again remaining (i.e padma priye....) is recited. I have asked many, they
strongly advice not to recite the anuvakas from 16th onwards.
>
> Could you please guide me as to why it is so?
>
> Thanks
> Mohan.R
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:24:50 -0000
>    From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Response on queries - Part 2
>
> SrI:
> SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:
>
> Dearest Srivaishnavas
>
> Continuing from the earlier post:
>
> Question 2: What are the avathArams for? DharmasamsThApanArThAya- to
> establish and protect dharma. Sri Rama being the Eka pathni vrathan,
> followed strict codes of saasthrAs and set an example for us. KaNNan
> hugged these Gopikas; played with them; and Vedas and saasthrAs may
> roar saying He is Parathvam and is unaffected; But is that
> approapriate for KaNNan to do that? hugging other women? Can that be
> termed as establishing Dharma? How can we say that He followed
> saasthrAs and established, protected Dharma in His KrishnA avathAram
> as avathaarams?
>
> Answer: Same question was raised by Parvathi to Rudra: Rudra replied
> promptly" swaSareeraparishvangAth rathi naasthi varaananE.. â?" We,
> jeevathmAs are in each body. We are always united with our bodies.
> There is absolutely no dhosham for that. There is no enjoyment also
> with that unity; There is no ApAsam also in that. Only when we hug
> the body which does not belong to us - it is different and hence a
> paapam- dhOsham etc.. Then only does the problem arise. Iswaran â?"
> vibhu;
>
> He manifests everywhere; anatharbahischathas sarva vyApya
> nArAyaNasthitha: - Narayanan manifests and pervades everywhere inside
> and outside of everything and everyone; We are all His sareeram; He
> houses Himself in us and He houses us all as well; He hugs His own
> body- can it have dhosham? was Rudra's quip.. This aspect is
> mentioned
> by swamy desikan in the above sloka- as vibhO: He manifests and
> pervades everywhere. Even for that matter, vaayu, air spreads
> everywhere and hugs all. Is it his paapam? Is it dhosham? When Vaayu
> himself doe not do anything worng, what can we mention about the
> SarvEshwaran? We are all his sareeram and when He hugs us- there is
> no
> dhosham thus. Even Chathu mukha Brahma and others longed for being
> born in Gopa kulam to be hugged by KaNNan; Vishnu purANa also
> mentions
> this: vyApi vaaayuriva sthiTha:
>
> Generally- among humans- there are kaamukhars (those who are mad
> after
> sensual pleasures and carnal desires); There also few virakhthars
> (those who detach themselves from getting such thoughts and are
> vairAgis) They even spurn thinking of women and hate them as mere one
> collection of flesh, bones, blood. OOnidai chuvar vaitthu enbu thooN
> naatti- says Thirumangai AzhwAr- This body is with the lowly hair,
> the
> wall of skins, flesh; bone as pillars and reinforcing members to
> support. Thus these two kinds of people exist in the world; Sri
> Krishna did not have mOham (desire) for these Gopikas and their
> bodies; Not dwEsham (dislike or hatred); They are His body after all.
> Not due to his karma, but by His own very nature as Their Lord. How
> can there be desire or hatred? Swamy Desikan says this in
> Yadavabhyudhayam:
>
> na khalvamushya pramadhAmadhAnDhyam na kuthsanam
> tatthadhabhIshtadhAthu: |
> na DharmasamsThApana vADhaganDha SuddhAnuChinthayA hi Subhasya leelA
> ||
>
> Thus, KaNNan, hugging His own bodies namely Gopikas, there is nothing
> against dharma; In fact, the hunsbands of these Gopikas should have
> got angry at these acts; Never did they get angry. Because KaNNan was
> in their hearts and they too belong to Him; Bhagwaan entered into
> their hearts as well, lured them with His divine charning form and
> united with their jeevansâ?¦ thaan otti vandhu, thani nenjai
> vanjitthu,
> oonotti vandhu uyirinil kalandhuâ?¦ [says NammAzhwAr in
> Thirumaynozhi].
> These people had the same experience and enjoyment. Thus for the,
> there was nothing wrong seen in KaNNan's acts and they could not talk
> ill about KaNNan. It is one of KaNNan's leelAs. Sage Sukha mentioned
> in Srimad Bhagawatham:
>
> gOpInAm tathpathInAm Cha sarvEShAmEva dhEhinAm |
> yO(S)nthasvarathi sO(S)Dhyaksha: kreedanEnEha dhEhabhAk||
>
> Sri Vishnu purANa refers to this. Swamy desikan thus touches upon of
> all of them as vibhO: to assert these truths.
>
> Question 3: Ok. Everyone and everything is His sareeram; When such is
> the case, why did KaNNan choose only those Gopasthrees specially; and
> in particular? Why did He bless them with such enjoyment? If He does
> not have humanly desires, anger and hatred as He is the Lord, why did
> He have to hug the Gopa sthrees? Gopikas also- why did they fall in
> love with Him? Even if KaNNan- being the Lord- does not have any
> dhOsham, and is not affected by paapam, punyam and he is not affected
> by Karma- still the poor Gopikas get these dhoshams as they desired
> for another Purushan [other than their own husbands].. How can KaNNan
> be a party to such paapams committed by Gopikas?
>
> Answer: Once, the Apsarasthrees [dancing damsels] in deva loka, by
> hearing about the most beautiful â?" dhivya sowndharyam of the Lord
> Sriya: Pathi Sriman Narayanan and prayed to Him continuously like
> penance for blessing them with his dhivya sowndharya roopam for them
> to enjoy. Bhagawaan appeared before them and said, "Do not worry. I
> am
> pleased by your prayers. I will fulfill your desires. I will appear
> as
> KaNNan in Gokulam during Krishna avathAram and you all appear as Gopa
> sthrees. Your prayers will be fulfilled. " Thus He blessed them with
> His divine body and its charm. They were born as these Gopa sthrees.
> This purANA explains. Thus due to their puNya phalam, their past
> prayers, they are blessed with this Anandham and it is Bhagawaan's
> organizing things to fulfill His devotees' prayers. None gets any
> dhOsham due to these acts. Punya paapams also vary for humans and
> Devas. Devasthrees thus do not get any dhosham due to these acts and
> their past prayers only get answered. Also it is told that rishis in
> Rama avathAram wanted to enjoy His dhivya sowndharya ThirumEni when
> they enjoyed seeing His ThirumEni; Rama let them be born as Gopa
> sthrees probably for their prayers to be fulfilled as well. All his
> avathArams had to meet very many conditions and fulfill all these
> inter related incidents.
>
> This is mentioned by swami Desikan as aChapilasparSanamAthraleelA..
> In
> the next sloka he says.. thatthadhabhIShtadhAthu:
>
> --
> Acharyan ThiruvaDigaLE SaraNam
> Regards
> Namo Narayana
> dAsAnu dAsan
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: 9 Sep 2004 04:19:17 -0000
>    From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Nithya Grantham
>
> Dear BhAgavatAs,
>
> I am looking for a copy of "Nithya Grantham" of Sri Ramanujacharya (with
text and translation).  Request you kindly guide me where I can get the
same.
>
>
> AdiyEn
> Mohan Ramanuja dAsan
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:21:34 -0000
>    From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Reponse to the query -Part 1
>
> SrI:
> SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:
>
> Dearest Srivaishnavas,
>
> Krishna, Rama avathArams are the most enjoyable and divine and they
> always enchant us with the wonderful
> deeds of the Lord. AzhwArs and Acharyans have deeply immersed
> themselves in these avathArams in particular and had seen the same
> Rama, Krishna in the archA mUrthys in Dhivya Desams. Thsee special
> Rama Krishna avathArams have got a spociality in them. The Sarvagnan,
> SarvEshwaran, Sarva shakthan, the Supreme Lord- who is unpapalleled
> and Peerless- who has none equal to or above Him. oppAril appan-
> ParamAthmA- PurushOtthaman- Jagath kaarNanan; Jagath rakshakan- The
> Only One who could grant mOksham [mOksha pradhan]; the Ultimate
> enjoyment for NithyasUris and mukthAs at Srivaikuntam. One can go on
> describing and extolling His positions, Roopam, Swaroopam, vibhuthi
> (rulership) i.e. this world [leelA vibhUthi] and Paramapadham [Nithya
> vibhUthi], His innumerous kalyANa guNas. In spite of such Greatest
> qualities, His dayA [comnpassion] is Supreme and the most important
> One; manisarkaay- padaathana pattu- For the sake of human beings-
> what
> all troubles; briths (as avathArams) He undertakes. He took the
> avathArams in the lowly human forms - and stoops down so low with
> such
> east accessibility to illiterate Gopas, GopikAs, pasu (cows), pakshis
> (jatAyu), monkeys, boatmen- hunters (Guha), et al. His sowlabhyam
> [coming down so low] and sowseelyam [easily accessible for all] is
> amazingly true and present in such Greatest Parathvam.
>
> He moved with everyone equally and attracted them all with His
> sowlabhyam and sowseelyam. He is thus possessed with the most
> wonderful gunAs -namely Sowlabhya, Sowseelyams. Rama is addressed as
> Gunvaan- mentioning this gunA especially.
>
> KrishnAvathAra sowseelyam is Ultimate and there is no match for that.
> aRivonRum illAdha Aykulatthu- He appeared in the group of cowherd
> folks who were completely illiterate; having no saasthra jnAnam- did
> not even know how to eat with right hand or left.. [idakkai, valakkai
> theriyaadha].. He mixed with them as if He had been a cowherd Boy for
> ages and even Devendran, Chathu mukha BrahmA were all misled. He
> reared cattle; tendered calves; played with Gopa boys, shared their
> food, taking a bite from their palms; played with Gopikas and danced
> with them. He allowed Himself tied down to a mortar by the illiterate
> Gopa lady (YasodhA) and NammAzhwAr marveled as His such a sowseelyam
> and fainted for about six months it is told [etthiRam? etthiRam] .
>
> This sowseelya gunA which can not be seen in anyone else in such
> grandest proportion is the natural swabhAvam for the Lord.. It is His
> one of His inherent kalyANa guNa for the sake of us- due to His
> mercy,
> dayA on us. How many of us understand that? Hardly any. The Lord
> Himself says in GitA- avajAnanthi maam mUDA! .. Sa mahatma
> sudhurlabha:
>
> Ravana talks lowly about Rama coming to the forest, leaving His
> coronation for His younger brother; Sisupalan talked in
> un-parliamentary language (sudusol) about the deeds of KaNNan- as
> cowherd Boy.
>
> avyaktham vyakthimApannam manyanthE maam abuddhaya: |
> param bhAva majaanantha: mamaavyayam anutthamam ||
>
> I, who was born as the son of Vaudevar, am being considered as if
> born
> due to the bondage with Karma; and they do not understand my supreme
> sowseelya guNaa. The same holds good for all His avathArams. Without
> understanding His true nature and guNAs, we (people) talk low about
> His deeds performed during these avathArams. Those who do that are
> foolish; and who equate Him with them as humans and evaluate His
> actions in their view point as humans.
>
> Still, it continues. Even today such talking goes on. Even sincere
> devotees sometimes get doubts on His vaali vandham, Gopika dance
> etc..
> The Lord Himself tells Vaali: sookshuma: paramudhuehEya: Dharmam is
> very subtle; it is not easily comprehensible. KaNNan played with gopa
> sthrees - and even today many of us are not able to digest; But we,
> srivaishnavites, should never get such thoughts about His such
> grandest deeds. But it is essential to get our doubts cleared so that
> we reinforce our devotion on Him stronger and it grows from strength.
> There is no better time that talking about it now on His
> janmAshthami.
> Please forgive me if I am again trespassing where fools do rush in
> where angels fear to tread. This is only to clarify the foolish
> arguments and thoughts in us. Swamy desikan himself most mercifully
> has enlisted the Freqently Asked Questions on this incident and
> answered to clarify our doubts. It is Swamy who blessed us with the
> unparalleled abhaya pradhAna saaram to clarify many aspects on
> Saranagathi during RamavathAram. Swamy mentions in his
> yaadhavaabhyudhayam about Krishna avathAram and let us enjoy them and
> get our doubts cleared. [reference: the most brilliant article
> written
> by Naavalpaakam SrI U VE Dr Vasudevachariar Swamy, Trivandhrum in Sri
> Hayagriva Priya and I was so lured by the article that I wished to
> share with all of you- anything good in these posts is only due to
> the
> wonderful original article and Swamy Desikan's excellent analysis.
> Mistakes, errors, omissions are entirely mine. Sri  Vasudevachar
> Swamy
> is the one who wrote the Tamil meanings for Swamy Desikan Dhivya
> sahasranaamam released and as blessed by Srimad PaRavaakkOttai
> Andavan
> Swami. Also, asmadhAchAryan His Holiness Srimad PaRavaakkOttai
> ANdavan
> Sri Gopala Desika Mahadesikan Swami had delivered a two hours
> upanyasam on this subject few years ago on a sravaNam day -
> wonderfully quoting the very reference which is in this article. It
> is
> Acharya anugraham that I am able to find the same reference in this
> article and we share here now]
>
> It may take a few posts and the article is a bit long and hence we
> will cover it as a series.
>
> suraanganaabhi: samayE Gruthaayaam swEnaiva gOpAkruthi bhUmikAyAm |
> akarmavaSyasya vibhOsthadhAseeth arChAphalasparSanamaathraleelA ||
> [from Yadavabhyudhayam- 8.67]
>
> This sloka- a wonderful sloka- has answers for many questions.
>
> 1. Question: The ultilate pinnacle of Sowlabhyam [eLimai] - joined
> hands with Gopa sthrees and enjoyed being with them, united with
> them.
> Even some of them were married [to others]. They too were happy being
> with Him. This is against saasthrAs. Does this deed bring a bad name
> for KaNNan?
>
> Answer: We should first of all, not think that He [Bhagwaan] and us-
> as one jaathi (one group). He is Iswaran; Lord; ruler of all of us;
> It
> is His sankalpam even for our very existence; breathing. He is never
> touched by punya, paapams; He is akilahEya prathyaneekan (untouched
> by
> imperfections; or bad guNAs); He is not bound by Karma at all; His
> birth is an avathAram for the sake of us. We are all bound always by
> Karma; We are tied down by our papams and punyams. He is above vidhi
> nishEdha saasthrAs; SaasthrAs are for us to be on right track for
> getting rid of our paapams, and accrual of punyas and to please Him
> as
> SaasthrAs are His agnyA- instructions. Sage Vyasa also says clearly:
> aroopavadhEva hi tathpraDhAnathvaath. Bhagawaan DOES not belong to
> human race; He is in manidha jaathi at all. We can not hold Him down
> with the rules laid down for us.
>
> Also, We can not compare and equate our actions with his dhivya
> chEshtithams )leelAs); Can we lift the huge Govardhana mountain with
> the little finger as a Boy? Can we dance on top of many heads of
> poisnous snake Kaalingan? Sage Suka takes the example of Rudra
> himself
> to explain this in Srimad Bhaagawatham: Bhagawaan'e leelAs are very
> many. Rudra's leelas are few; Even them, we can not do or perform.
> Rudra drank the poison and did not perish [as it was Deva kaaryam and
> the Lord Sriman Narayanan blessed him to undertake the task]. Can we
> drink poison and survive? When such is case with Iswaran, why to talk
> about SarvEswaran?
>
> Hence, KaNNan does not belong to us - human race. Iswaran;
> Parabrahmam- is He. Veda declares Him as apahathapaapma. Swamy
> EmperumAnAr Sri Ramanuja comments this as: by His nature, He is not
> bounded by Karma [apahathakarmathvam,
> karmavaSyathAgandharahithatattvam ithyarTTha: ]
>
> So, if some of His acts appear to us the acts of paapam, He is
> unbounded and untouched by such acts at all. Hence, will paapam never
> ever affect or come to Him due to these acts- the question does not
> arise at all for Him. Swamy desikan touches upon this aspect in the
> above sloka with the word.. akarmavaSya.. Thus He does not belong to
> jeeva jaathi; and also He is our Ruler, Lordship and Isawarn and due
> to both aspects, He does not get affected by Karma and PunYa paapams
> says engaLAzhwAn in the commentary on Vishnu purANa for the same
> subject under IswaratvEna apahathapaapmatvaat..  Hence no dhOsham for
> Him.
> Let us look at more questions in next posts...
>
> Acharyan ThiruvaDigaLE SaraNam
> Regards
> Namo Narayana
> dAsAnu dAsan
>
>
>
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Geetha Raghavan <geetha123@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > I am de-lurking to ask for help. I went into one of
> > the general Indian discussion boards on a popular
> > Indian search engine. One of the discussion was about
> > Krishna and 16K gopikas. Some of the comments were
> > insulting to Krishna, to say the least. I was very
> > much upset by such comments but I did not know enough
> > about the significance of the gopikas to send a reply.
> > Can someone on the list explain the significance to
> > me? Next time some ignorant soul passes some nasty
> > commment, I will be able to explain the significance
> > to them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Geetha
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: 9 Sep 2004 05:41:52 -0000
>    From: "Mohan  Ramanujan" <mohan_ramanujan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Jitanta stotram
>
> Dear BhAgavatAs,
>
> Could you please tell me the source of "Jitanta Stotram".  This is recited
usually during the Tiruaradhanam.
>
> AdiyEn
> Mohan Ramanuja dAsan
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:01:05 -0000
>    From: "Vishnu" <vsmvishnu@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Krishna and Gopikas
>
> Dear Smt Geetha,
>
> Krishna was a 9-yr old kid, when he left gOkulam (someone may correct
> if I am wrong). gOpikAs saw parama purusha in Him, and they mixed
> with the parama purusha in Him completely. If there happened any
> physical contact, that is only by the Parama purusha in Him.
>
> You can safely ignore any insulting comments.
>
> dasan
> Vishnu
> -- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Geetha Raghavan <geetha123@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > I am de-lurking to ask for help. I went into one of
> > the general Indian discussion boards on a popular
> > Indian search engine. One of the discussion was about
> > Krishna and 16K gopikas. Some of the comments were
> > insulting to Krishna, to say the least. I was very
> > much upset by such comments but I did not know enough
> > about the significance of the gopikas to send a reply.
> > Can someone on the list explain the significance to
> > me? Next time some ignorant soul passes some nasty
> > commment, I will be able to explain the significance
> > to them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Geetha
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:53:14 -0000
>    From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: (Ramanuja) sEshatwam & pArathanthiryam
>
> SrI:
> SrImathE Ramanujaya namah:
>
> Dear Smt Jayshree
> As usual, you have flabbergasted us with your rich write up.
> excellent!
> adiyEn's two cents worth:
> what i had listened to from asmadhAchAryan:
>
> SEshathvam is LakshmaNan;
> Paarathanthriyam- Bharathan...
>
> Lakshmanan was willing to serve the Lord at all times under all
> circumstances; and it was as if it was His duty... and he deserves
> that... Stay in Ayodhya; look after appA, ammA... while I go to the
> forest..
> No.. never. I will accompany You. Manni, please let me  follow you
> both. Please tell Rama... Lakshmanan pleads and has his way to
> serve. sEshan...
>
> while Bharathan acted what the Lord had asked him to do, whether he
> (Bharathan) likes it or not); Go back to Ayodhya... ok...[though he
> had come with an intent to take back Rama to ayodhyA]- itta
> vazhakkaay irutthal.. Exists merely for the pleasure of the
> Lord.. "as if" achethanam .. and still be a chEthanan... Seeing Him
> pleased would make him pleased..
>
> Please forgive adiyEn for my indulgence
> Regards
> Namo narayana
> dasan
>
>
>
> --- In ramanuja@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, jasn sn <jayasartn@xxxx> wrote:
> > SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.
> >
> > Respected Sri Venkatesan  and Sri Vishnu,
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
>    Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:04:05 +0530
>    From: Padmanabhan <aazhwar@xxxxxxxx>
> Subject: A Peep into Peirya Thriu-mozhi 9
>
> Surrender Unto Him -Him with Periya pirAtti -
> naimisAraNyam
>
> sri thiurmangai mannan, recalling his earlier life events and stages
surrenders at the feet of Lord of naimisaranyam.
>
> Here, AzhwAr's action again sets a precedence and is a guding star for us.
He surrenders to the Lord who is the Lord of periya pirAtti, highlighting
the fundamental of our srEvaishNavic philosophy.
>
> This is the sixth thiru-mozhi in the first ten- "vAnilA muRuval siRu
nudhal perum thOaL"
>
> In each of these pAsuram-s AzhwAr tearfully and regretfully realises the
past mistakes and falls at the feet of the Lord.
>
> "vandhun thiruvadi adaindhean", "nalam purindhiRainjum thiruvadi
adaindhEan" "nAnudaith thavathAl thiruvadi adaindhEan" are the oft repeated
emotional words of AzhwAr while surrendering unto the feet of the Lord.
>
> swAmi periya vAchAn piLLai in the commentary has described this as
"....thiru naimisAraNyathilEa niRkRa sarvEswaran thiruvadigaLilEa periya
pirAttiyAr munnilaiyAga saraNam pugugirAr"
>
> AzhwAr surrenders unto the feet of the Lord in the presence and at the
behest of periya-pirAtt would be a crude and literal transalation.
>
> This can be understood from the penultimate pAsuram of this thirumozhi-
"thEanudaik kamalathu thiruvinnukkarasEA" referring the Lord as the Lord of
the peirya pirAtti -thiruvinukku arasEa;
> "purushakAram" is the appropriate word in the vyAkyAnam for this purpose.
>
> vandhun thiruvadi adaindhean
> naimisAraNaythauL endhAi.
>
> (to be continued)
> vanamamalai padmanabhan
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:53:52 -0500
>    From: Pattangi <danp@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Krishna and Gopikas - Court Case and Resolution
>
> sri:
>
> We have had such discussionsin the Vedics-UIC group and the transcripts
are
> a good read, but adiyen will point to the reply given in a court in
Europe.
>
> When the ISKON movement was gathering
> momentum, the local Chiristian groups levelled many cases against Krishna
Devotees.
> One of the stories i have heard (and verified for accuracy)
> will give you the answer.
>
> The devotee here is Sri Tusta Krishna dasan,
> he used to be in Sacramento, CA.
> He used to defend all the Vaishnavas from
> lawsuits and other negative-media coverage in the west.
>
> ====This is a true incident=========
>
> There was a case once in Poland, saying that
> all krishna devotees are to be arested,
> many a temples and devotees were arrested for following a GOD who has
16108 wives.
> (Among other causes cited were idol worship is a sin etc)
>
> Sri Tusta Krishna dasan defended Vaishnavas in court. Here is his
arguement to the nun who had files the case against the Vaishnavas for
supposedly serving an immoral God who married 16108 princesses.
>
> In front of the the judge, he asked her whether she had a ring on her
finger. She remained silent for a while. Then he asked her they put a ring
on her finger they had told her that she was becoming the wife of Jesus. She
remained silent.
>
> Then Sri Tusta Krishna Dasan turned to the judge and all in the courtroom
and said:
> " She criticizes Krishna for his many wives but worships Jesus
> who is married to all the nuns in the world."
>
> After a great laughter the judge dismissed the case in favor of the
Vaishnavas.
>
> ====This is a true incident=========
>
> Azhvar Emberumanar Jeeyar ThiruvadigalE sharanam
>
> adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
> Mukundan Vangkipuram Pattangi
>
> http://www.radioramanuja.com                    http://www.vedics.net
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:42:48 -0000
>    From: "vaidhehi_nc" <nappinnai_nc@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 856
>
> Sri:
> Srimathe Ramanujaya nama:
> Srimad Vara Vara Munaye nama:
>
> Dear Vishnu & other devotees,
>
>            Humble praNAms to all. I have forgotten the question
> itself with which this thread started! BTW, are there rAjasic and
> tAmasic ahankAram(like sAthvik)??? Just curious to know:-) That's
> all.
>
>            I thought(!!! I could be wrong but refer to SVB:160-168)
> sEShatva(ananyArha) and pAratantrya go hand in hand. Just
> as "sEShatva" has to be kept suppressed if it hampers the Lord's
> pleasure, the other attribute "pAratantrya" should not also be
> allowed to damp/lower the Lord's spirits. If the jIvAthma/subject is
> unresponsive and behaves like a wood(in the name of dependence), it
> will certainly divert/detract from the Lord's pleasure and thus
> becomes an evil although "pAratantrya"(in the usual context) is the
> anti-thesis of conceit and arrogance. When Srirama,after Ravana was
> overthrown,wanted to see Sita, straight from her captivity(as she
> was in her internment),Sita appeared before the Lord after a
> refreshing bath! This literally made Srirama frown on her "snAnam
> roSha janakam".
>
>            Again refer to SVB:71-72. pAratantrya will eliminate self-
> effort, while sEShatva self-delight and self-enjoyment, provided
> these two fundamental characteristics,which mark the essential
> nature of the individual soul, are fully grasped and lived upto.
> Then these two can be turned towards selfless service, rendered unto
> the Lord, solely for His pleasure, with no tinge of personal egoism.
>
>            All errors in understanding SVB are mine. If a number
> greater than Infinity exists, then "that many" obeisances(of mine)
> to srI piLLai lOkAcArya. He blows my mind. I feel every aphorism
> (sUtra) of SVB is a PhD topic. Such is the greatness of srI piLLai
> lOkAcArya. Credit also goes to the devotees Sri Parthasarathy and
> Sri vanamamali Padmanabhan. Plus, Sri Sridhar Srinivasan has already
> nicely explained the position of sEShatva-pAratantrya.
>
> AzhvAr emperumAnAr jIyar thiruvadigaLE sharaNam
> dAsAnu dAsI
> NC Nappinnai
>
>
> > Respected Swami,
> >
> > How will we discuss, if we keep apologizing, saying our posts
> > are "blabberings" and frequently writing "forgive"? May be
> > some "sAttvika ahankAram" is needed:)
> >
> > All of us, including self, use words like SEshatvam, kainkaryam
> etc.
> > interchangeably. However, when it comes to SEshatvam vs
> pAratantryam,
> > we need to go into what the terms originally mean.
> >
> > I referred to Manavala MamunigaL's commentary for mumukshuppadi
> and
> > explanation of Sriman T.K.Gopaplacharya Swami. In that, Sriman
> T.K.
> > swami defines what is SEshatvam. He says it is remaining as
> bhOgyam
> > for PerumAL, like pushpam, chandanam etc.
> >
> > PirAtti's and other dEvIs' SEshatvam to PerumAL is explained in
> SrI
> > guNa ratna kOSam of Bhattar in similar terms (bhOgyA vAmapi
> > nAntarIyakatayA pushpAngarAgai: samam...)
> >
> > Dasanudasan
> > Vishnu
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
>    Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:27:11 -0000
>    From: "srivaishnavan" <srivaishnavan@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Krishna and Gopikas- Response on queries- Concluding part
>
> SrI:
> SrImathE Gopaladesika mahadesikaya namah:
> Dearest srivaishnavas,
>
> This is the last of three posts on the subject.
> Question 4: Still, one thing is not understood. Deva sthrees could
> have simply got married to KaNNan and enjoyed Him as His spouses.
> They could have got their prayers fulfilled; instead, why should
> they be born as Gopa sthrees, leave their husbands, in-laws,
> children and run to KaNNan? Why should KaNNan allow this? How can
> this be establishment of Dharma? This act is against the manushya
> dharma.
>
> Answer: Firstly there are two issues that need to be understood. The
> husband-wife, father-son relations are all not permanent- everyone
> knows. These all come due to this sareera sambandham (due to the
> association with this body); For this body, these relations come.
> They
> are present as long as this body exists. After that these relations
> vanish. In next birth different parents, children, spouse etc.. Thus
> the relations are only temporary and are for this birth; Being a
> wife, husband is due to the body taken by this Jeevathma and these
> roles will change next birth.
>
> But the relation between Paramathma and Jeevan is always permanent.
> He is Swami; We are dAsars. This is always so. It is natural for all
> jeevaathmas. It is no way associated with the body of jeevathma and
> does not change when bodies change for various births. Whatever
> number of births we take; this relation will never ever change.
> unthannOdu uRavEl namakku ingu ozhikka ozhiyaadhu, Govinda â?" says
> GodhA PiraaTTi.
> Hence desiring for the Lord, devoted to Him, performing service to
> Him are all to be sought after. They are normal for jeevathma and are
> perfectly in accordance with dharma, saasthrAs. This is to be
> actually the welcome one and should necessarily be sought after by
> every jeevan
> for redemption. To achieve that and in course of achieving the same,
> if there is a choice between this versus the bodily relation, one can
> choose the relation (eternal) with the Lord. There is absolutely
> nothing wrong with that. Kaikeyi wanted to coronate Bharathan and let
> him separate from the Lord Rama. But Bharatha, who wanted to serve
> the
> Lord, brushed aside even the bodily relation of Kaikeyi as his mother
> as she was the stumbling block for that service. He hated her for
> such
> thoughts and preventing him from performing kaimkaryam for Rama. For
> us, the Bhagavad, BhAgawatha anubhavam alone is prime and important.
> It is in line with our nature. If the relations are in line with this
> want of ours and they work towards, support the same for us, then
> they
> can be with us; if they work against this and do not support our
> Bhagavad BhAgawatha anubhavam, they can be brushed aside like
> Bharathan. Nothing wrong. The cowherd women did that. It is no way
> termed as incorrect; in fact, it is most appropriate for jeevaathma
> by
> its nature.
>
> This is very clear in Srimad Bhagawatham. When KaNNan sees them
> devotedly running towards Him leaving the elders, husbands, children,
> and others- and asks: "what do you want me to do for You all? Go back
> quickly and serve your husbands. Do not leav the dharma meant for
> women and ladies, wives and mothers? This not correct. Do not come
> here. If you want, you do keerthanam, sing my name, utter my name and
> think of me from your hoems. Go home.".
>
> Gopikas could not control their tears; Their throats choked; their
> eyes welled. Their hearts broken; Their words did not come out of
> their mouths, tongues refused to co-operate due to the emotions and
> sorrows. Mouths quivered. Our KaNNan- our Lord- KaNNan- is he saying
> this? Our only Master, Swami- to Him we belong to- does He ask us not
> to come to Him any more and ask us to go back? They started appealing
> to Him.
>
> yathpathyapathyasuhadhAmanuvrtthiranga sthreeNAm swaDharma ithi
> DharmavidhA tvayOktham |
> asthvEvamEthadhupadESapadham tvayeeSE preeShtO bhavAmsthanumruthAm
> kila bandhurAthmA ||
>
> kurvanthi hitvayi rathim kuSalA: sva Athman nithyapriyE
> pathisuthAdhibhiraarthidhai: kim |
> thanna: praseedha paramEswara maasma ChinDhyA ASAm bruthAm tvayi
> ChirAth aravindha nEthra ||
>
> Husband, children- serve them- You are advising us. Let that be
> there.
> You are the permanent relation for all jeevans. You are darling
> bandhu
> too for us. You are the AtmA for us as well. Due to our puNya,
> paapams, the karma phalam, there is only dukkham (sorrows) due to
> these relations and association with them. What is the use of that?
> You are Priyaml darling for us. The buddhimaans (intellect) realizing
> this eternal relationship with You and Your darling form, ParamAthmic
> nature, would get eternal enjoyment from You only. ParamEswaraa!
> PankajaakshA! Lotus eyed lord- most merciful One! Please bless us; do
> not break the love that we have for You from time immemorial and for
> long time.
>
> This is what is Parama hitham for Jeevathma. Most pleasing to the
> Lord as well.One should have longing for Bhagavad vishayam,. Interest
> and longing for other matters- one should attempt to get rid of. For
> that one should wlawys contemplate on : God alone is eternal relation
> for us; All others are only temporary; Due to karma, these relations
> exist. Thes sukhams, dhukkhams are due to Karma. This is what is
> insctruced bt Sage Yaagnyavalkya to MaithrEyi and is in
> BrahadhAraNyaka Upanishad.
>
> Gopikas realized this from their experience; and enjoyed His
> relationship with them. KaNNan also [as is His nature as the most
> merciful Lord who runs to devotees to be with them] blessed them with
> such experience. This greatest ultimate of all saasthrAs is
> established to us in this Gopika charithram. KaNNan also, in order to
> establish this wonderful Bhaagawatha saasthra dharmam, made this act
> as His leelA; and blessed them especially. He wanted His avathAram to
> glorify this jeevathmA's longing for association and relationship
> with
> Him for ever and desire for enjoyment of His swaroopa, roopa
> sowndharyam. That was one of His yet another special [visEsha] Dharma
> sthApanam. Thus, it lays down the path for the highest Vaishnava,
> prapannan quality and way of life and establishes the most wonderful
> way of VaidIka life. Gopikas are the highest form of devotees and
> prapannans the world has ever seen. This is the greatest of Upanishad
> DharmA; the pinnacle of saasthrAs; The jeevathmAs' nithya niroopAhika
> ananhaarya sEshathvam is well established in Gopika Charithram.
>
> The Paramabhakthi [intense devotion] of Gopa sthrees! What a great
> devotion! What a mind set of Them ! what a manO bhAvam! All deeds
> completely in accordance with saaathrAs- [not disliked or hated by
> even their spouses!] These marvelous dhiva chShtithams of KaNNan as
> leelAs should always be contemplated, enjoyed and read, listened to
> by
> us; if one does that, the desire for lowkika kaamam would vanish; the
> desire for sensual pleasures would disappear slowly and KaNNanukkE
> Avathu kaamam (desire for KaNNan alone) would linger and grow in us.
> Swamy desikan says: This charithram on Gopikas is the best medicine
> for the diseases [like Kaama, krodham] in our minds; This is the one
> praised and prayed by Rishis and Saints.
>
> raagAdhirOga prathikAra bhUtham rasAyanam sarvadhaSAnu bhAvyam |
> AsIdhanuDhyEyathamam muneenaam dhivyasya pumsO dhayithOpavhOga: ||
> [4.101]
>
> Srimad BhAgawatham also mentions bhakthi parAm prathilabhya kAmam
> hadhrOgam ASvapahinOthi aChirENa DhIra: - based on which swamy
> Desikan
> composed the above sloka. Here, the sains follow this charithram and
> and declare and enjoy as the Grandest One- says Swamy. He refers to
> Sri NammAzhwAr "kuravai aacchiyarOdu kOttathum" and then "en appan
> than maayangaLE ninaikkum nenjudaiyEn.. [I am blessed with the mind
> that contemplates only on my Father's leelAs and dhivya
> chEsthithams].
>
> Thus we enjoyed the Gopika charithams. We need to touch upon one of
> last slokas of Yadhavaabhyudhayam before completing this series for
> completion's sake. That tells us how one should enjoy the
> KrishnAvathAram.
>
> nAreeshtaChhA miyamithadhiyO nAkanAThESwarathvam
> samyOgE Cha pravaNamanasa: SASvatham brahmacharyam |
> athraikasyAm purinivasatha: sarva lOkADhikathvam
> niDhyAyantha: swarithamatharan dhustharAm thasya leelAm ||
>
> The subjects discussed here are:
>
> 1. Bhagawaan Sri KaNNan is Devaadhi Devan- He was always at the beck
> and call of Gopika girls. Once when one girl complained to Him that
> her legs are paining and can not keep walking. He lifted her and
> carried her on His shoulders. Thus he listens to his devotees and
> allows himself to be at their service. But we should not be misled to
> believe that He is not the Lord; He listens to these young girls of
> Gopas and the young Gopa boy friends. Though he does that, He is the
> lord of all Devas; Devaadhi Devan. Devendra, Brahma, et al came and
> prayed to Him and praised Him.
>
> We are bounded to someone due to our karma and its association on us.
> It is mandate on us; There is no esacpe and it is due to our karma
> bandham. For SarvEshwaran, it is not the case. He is bound down and
> tied down to devotee's pleas and requests due to his own sankalpam.
> "kaTTuNNa paNNiya peru maayan- paNNiya is important. All this is due
> to His mercy and anugraham on the devotees and that's why comes Sri
> KrishNAvathArams says Srimad Bhagawatham. anugrahA bhakthAnAm
> maanusham dhEhamAsThitha: Thus listening and heedimng to the request
> of His devotees, He thus becomes easily accessible and sowlabhyan.
> That is His Greatness; That is the greatness of Sri KrishnaavathAram.
>
> KaNNan alone is SarvEshwaran; He alone due to His sowlabhyam blesses
> the devotees should be fully and properly understood â?" this is
> what is
> contemplated by KaNNanallaal Deivam illai; [There is no God other
> than
> KaNNan]. Can there be any one equal to Him with such Parathvam and
> still exhibit such greatest sowseelya, sowlabhyathvam!
>
> 2. KaNNan- who was involved in his affair with sthrees- is eternal
> Brahmachaari! -
>
> KaNNan had 16000 women as his spouses and was conducting his family
> with each one of them individually â?" as seen and enjoyed by Sage
> Narada. He also had enjoyed being united with Gopa sthrees. In spite
> of all these, KaNNan is declared as the eternal ever Nithya
> Brahmachari. When Pareekshith was born from utthara's womb, it feels
> as a charcoal [due to AsvatthAmA's asthira's power]. The only lineage
> â?" heir from Paandava vamsa was Pareekshith and hence they were
> grief
> struck looking at the lifeless char coal child. It was told by one of
> the elders that if pure Bramachari's foot touches the child, it would
> be alive; become normal and active- said KaNNan. But none dared come
> near as they felt scared that their true nature would be revealed.
> [Sri Ramanuja defines the term Brahmacharyam in GitA BhAshyam
> as: "not
> having even a thought at any time that women are the objects of
> enjoyment". What a great and wonderful definition!]
>
> Thus, since none came forward, Bhagawaan KaNNan himself come forward:
> If I am the true purest Brahmachari and if I am SarvEshwaran, let the
> child come back alive and become normal." He touched the baby's body
> in full with His divine Lotus Feet. Immediately the baby became fair
> complexioned and was full of life, alive and crying.. In front of
> everyone, this had happened. This is mentioned by Swamy Desikan:
>
> vimOhanE vallabagEhineenAm na brahmacharyam bibhidhE thadhIyam |
> sampathyasthE bAlakajeevanam thath sathyEna yEnaiva sathAm samaksham
> ||
>
> Thus KaNNan is the purest Brahmachari is Sathyam. It was also true
> that He had played and enjoyed with cowherd women; 16000 spouses; How
> could that both be possible. Answer is: Only Bhagawaan can make that
> happen. We should never ever equate Him with us. Sage Narada once â?"
> came into Krishna's palace saw KaNNan welcoming him and asking his
> wife to bring waters for argyam, pAdyam etc.. and honoured the sage;
> in the next house he went into and saw KaNNan eating with his wife
> serving him; third house he saw Him doing ThiruvArAdhanam; fourth
> house, he was playing dhAyam with his wife; The wonderstruck Narada
> came out and after some time, all KaNNans came out to become one to
> board the chariot and reach the palace. He realized the Lord's
> Iswarathvam and sang in praise of Him; The Lord too replied to the
> Sage: oh Brahma rishI! I am the one instructing DharmA; I am also
> following the same in strict sense; I have come here to protect
> dharma; and establish the same; Do not worry."
>
> He conducted his grahAsthama dharmam with His 16000 spouses; with no
> grievance from any one; KaNNan Himself says in GitA: DharmAvirudDhO
> bhUthEshu kAmOsmi-. Swamy Desikan also says:
>
> AvidhitharaChanEna swEna pArThAya gItha:
> Swayamajani kaama: kO(S)pi DharmAvirudDha:
>
> It is possible only for Bhagawaan; The ultimate GrahasthAsramam and
> the love, desire's extent therein was well established here and to
> establish that dharma, this leelA of KaNNan was played. By the GopikA
> charithram, the greatest Upanishad Dharmam was established and shown
> to usâ?¦
>
> The Lord's ThirumEni (Body) is completely Suddha sathvam;
> aprAkrutham-
> unaffected by matter (that we se and have); Hence, His natural
> Brahmacharyam can never change; It is also told that with His mere
> sankalpa (will), He gave the sambOga sukham to Gopikas. Sage Suka
> says
> the same in: avarudDha sairEtha: his brahmacharyam thus never changed
> or was affected. KaNNan only blessed them with His grace and
> anugraham
> and granted what they desired for; He never desired the same for; He
> did not consider them as objects of enjoyment and hence in Ramanuja's
> definition he was full Brahmachari and Nithya Brahmachari.
>
> 3. The One who resided in the corner of Dwaraka is the Lord of entire
> worlds; when Jarasandham came to fight in the battle field, KaNNan
> [in
> order to protect the people from destruction from the battle] built a
> city in the centre of an ocean and stayed there with His people.
> Jaraasandhan and others mistakenly thought that He felt scared and
> hence ran away; They laughed at His running away with fear. But as a
> matter of fact, they were completely shivering with fear.
>
> It is completely wrong to belittle KaNNan as the one staying in a
> corner of Dwaraka city; He is the Lord of all; He is Devas' Devan. He
> is the One who grants to these Devas what they grant to their
> devotees. As a matter of gratitude, they gave little of what He had
> given them, when he built this Dwaraka city. KubEra gave away some
> wealth; Varunan gave Him some horses; Devendra gave the paarijatha
> tree etc.. They grabbed the opportunity to show their gratefulness.
>
> One should enjoy KrishNAvathAram thus and contemplate on His glorious
> deeds and leelAs. Then only can one get rid of the maayaa (samsaaric
> affliction). If one learns in half baked manner about His dhivya
> chEshthithams, then we will end up arguing with kutharkam and never
> ever be able to cross the ocean of samsara. Thus with Gopika
> charitham, the highest Upanishad saasthrA and VaidIka dharmam is
> established.
>
> We should place our heart and mind at the lotus Feet of KaNNan and
> Swamy desikan thus established the same in Yadavabhyudhayam.
>
> Anything found good in these posts is only due to the wonderful
> original article written by Sri U Ve Dr Vasudevachar Swami from Swamy
> Desikan's excellent analysis. Mistakes, errors, omissions are
> entirely mine
>
> Sarvam SrI KrishNArpaNamasthu
> AchAryan ThiruvaDigaLE SaraNam
> Regards
> Namo Narayana
> dAsan madhavakkannan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> azhwAr emberumAnAr jeeyAr thiruvadigalE saranam
>
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