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Hare Krishna Narendra Prabhu.

Also, one point I am realising --- I have sent at least a good 4 mails
on this issue but only the first 2 have appeared. Obviously there is some
uncalled
for censorship to stifle what someone sees as external intervention into
self-interpreted sectarian attitudes
going on here.

what can be done ?

those who encourage discussion are also the culprits in curtailing the
discussion when they perceive
an expansion beyond the self0imposed boundaries they have set for these.

Hare Krishna !


dasan,
R. Jai Simman
Singapore

----- Original Message -----
From: <SriRangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <SriRangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: [SriRangaSri] Digest Number 48


> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 3 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. SriRangaSri Vol.I/024 d/03/03/01
> From: Ramanbil@xxxx
> 2.
> From: Narender Reddy <reddynp@xxxx>
> 3. Re: http://www.radioramanuja.com/ - Prabhandam On-Line
> From: sriharirag@xxxx
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:36:15 -0000
> From: Ramanbil@xxxx
> Subject: SriRangaSri Vol.I/024 d/03/03/01
>
> SrIman! SrI Ranga Sriyam anubadravam anudhinam samvardhaya/
> SrIman! SrI Ranga Sriyam anubadravam anudhinam samvardhaya//
> KAvEri VardhathAm kAlE, kAlE varshathu vAsava:/
> SrI RanganAthO jayathu SrI Ranga SrIs cha VardhathAm//
> =====================================================
> SRI RANGA SRI VOL. I / 024 DATED 3rd March 2001
> =====================================================
> EDITORIAL:
> We are glad to present the 24th Issue of "Sri Ranga Sri"
> In this issue, we present Part 6 of "Greatness Of Bhagavad Ramanuja
> Darsanam" dealing with "Other Differences"
> =====================================================
> [Please read the note and request given while introducing the series.
> If anything has been expressed forcefully it is only to bring home
> the point more graphically and is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings]
> Dasoham
> Anbil Ramaswamy
> ==========================================
> Greatness of Bhagavad RamAnuja Darsanam (GRD 6)
> (Other Differences)
> =========================================-
> SECTION 3D: "TRANSITORINESS "
> SECTION 3E: " TRUTH EMERGES FROM UNTRUTH"
> SECTION 3F: ARE DREAMS REAL?
> SECTION 3G: "LIBERATION THROUGH KNOWLEDGE." And
> SECTION 3H: "JEEVAN MUKTI"
> (LIBERATION WHILE LIVING IN THE PHYSICAL BODY)
> ================================================
> SECTION 3(D) TRANSITORINESS
> ====================================================
> The Advaitins hold that other than Brahman, all else is
> impermanent. Hence, not real. A mud pot when broken is no more called
> a mud pot. It WAS, but IS NOT. Hence, its existence cannot be termed
> as real. Whatever is inconstant is not real.
> Comments:
> (i) This is a much more vulnerable argument than any advanced earlier.
> *To be transitory is not to be illusory. Everything in the world is
> real and not chimerical; factual and not
> Fatuous.
>
> (ii) By this argument, Nirvisesha Advaita could label even the Vedas
> themselves to be illusory since the Vedas are said to disappear at
> the time of PraLaya, only to be brought back by Brahman at the
> beginning of the next Kalpa.
>
> This would be a blatant repudiation of the Vedas whereby even the
> SAmAnya Dharmas (ordinary duties) prescribed therein would not have
> to be observed.
>
> One will have no duties to perform and the non-performance will not
> result in any harm.
>
> (iii) When everything is unreal, no teacher could be real and no
> pupil either. As both of them are unreal, any instruction supposed to
> be transmitted from teacher to pupil would also be unreal.
>
> *The AchArya who believes his Sishya to be false cannot impart any
> knowledge nor can a Sishya believing his AchArya to be false can
> imbibe any knowledge.
>
> Where is the link between the teacher and the taught, when neither of
> them is real? *
>
> (iv) The very proposition that Brahman is shadowed by nescience is
> wholly repugnant to the very nature of Brahman - the one destroyer of
> all obscurations and shadowing.
>
> *Such a proposition is not conducive to a Sense -illumination but
> only in Sense-obscuration and Sense-Vacuation* says Kesava Iyengar
>
> (v) When ChAndOkya Upanishad says that there is one without a second,
> it does not mean the world is unreal.
> *ParamAtma and JeevAtma are real.
> The world is real.
> Vedas are real.
> And all of them are ETERNALLY real. *
> ' He is without equal' means that there is none superior to him. When
> someone says 'Arjuna is the real archer' it does not mean other
> archers are not real; it only means that they are no match to Arjuna
> in his skills of archery.
> ===================================================
> SECTION 3 (E) " TRUTH EMERGES FROM UNTRUTH"
> ==================================================
> The Advaitins talk of truth emerging from untruth - "Asatyaath Satya
> Siddhi". The untrue silver appears as true shell; from the untrue
> serpent appears the true rope.
>
> COMMENT OF OTHER SCHOOLS:
> The answer of other schools is that so long as the silver
> generates joy and the serpent produces fear - they should be
> considered real. When the Vedas say " There was neither Sat nor Asat"-
> it refers to the stage of deluge. By this, it cannot be concluded
> that the very Brahman was neither Sat nor Asat.
>
> Prof. Narayanachariar:
> "As per the Advaitins, if the mumukshu does not know untruth also, it
> is necessary to teach him first that untruth and then make him give
> it up for a higher truth!"
>
> Bhagavad RamAnuja says - 'Sruti is more kind to her followers than a
> 1000 parents together -"MAthA pithr sahasEbhyOpi vatsalathara:
> Sruti"(Gita BAshyam II-44)
>
> Why should such Sruti teach falsehood, only to be abandoned and
> prosecuted and even mislead innocent novices?"
>
> Prof. Narayanachariar-
> Now, let us see what "Sathya" means.
> Referring to the etymology of the word Satya, Bhagavad RamAnuja says
> in Vedartha Sangraha, quoting Taittriya Upanishad II-6 and
> BrihadAraNyaka Upanishad III-9-9
> Satya is a compound of Sat + Tyat which means-
> *That which is HERE NOW + that which WAS THERE THEN". In other words,
> that truth or reality as (Satyam) is what we comprehend when
> the 'disembodied' and 'embodied' forms of God are put together"*
> ===============================================
> SECTION 3 (F) ARE DREAMS REAL?
> ===============================================
> *BrihadAranyaka Upanishad categorically declares that dreams are real
> and are created by God*
>
> (i) The question arises how can we conclude that they are created by
> God? And, why not say that the JeevAtma itself could create the
> dreams?
>
> The answer is, for one thing- the JeevAtma has no power of
> creation. For another, if it had the power, it will not create
> unpleasant dreams for itself. We see tigers, fire, flood etc., in
> which the dreamer appears as a victim. No body would indulge in
> creating even in a dream such self- threatening, self- destructive
> and unpleasant experiences to one's self.
>
> Prof. Narayanachariar explains the meaning of the word "Swapiti" the
> state of dreaming or deep sleep by etymology means "returns to one's
> self (i.e.) to God as the Innermost dweller". Thus, the dreams in the
> dream state and the state of deep sleep are in the realm of ParamAtma
> and not of the JeevAtma"
>
> (ii) The dreams are real so far as the person who dreams is concerned
> and real so long as the duration of the dream. That the objects in
> the dream vanish when the person wakes up underlines the temporary-
> ness of the objects and *not that the experience itself was unreal.
> The joy, the fear, the thrill, the excitement are all real for the
> person dreaming who may even be able to remember and relate them
> subsequently.
>
> (iii) Why should God create dreams at all is the next question.
> The answer is- The JeevAtma does some small good deeds and
> some small bad ones. They are not big enough or significant
> enough to attract a palpable reward or a palpable punishment. God
> gives the JeevAtma a little pleasure through pleasant experiences in
> the dreams so that he is happy for the duration of the dream enjoying
> pleasant things; Similarly, for the small bad ones that are not
> significant enough, a mild punishment is imposed by the
> Lord by making the JeevAtma feel the pain by dreaming unpleasant
> things and unpleasant experiences for the duration of the dreams.
>
> (iv) Another question raised by Sri Chandrasekaran is that because
> sometimes dreams follow certain experiences in real life, may be as a
> consequence and continuation thereof, can it not be inferred that it
> is the jeeva through such experiences, actually creates the dream
> scenes. The answer is that that it is God who uses these impressions
> as raw materials to spin the dreams for the Jeeva to experience.
>
> (v) Another question by Sri Chandrasekaran is that children do not
> have dreams. This is not proved by Science or experience. On the
> other hand, it used to be said that the Lord shows flowers to make
> them smile happily and takes away the show of flowers when they start
> crying on missing something. Thus, even babies do experience pleasant
> and unpleasant moments, may be due to small good or bad deeds done by
> them in their earlier lives.
> ==============================================
> SECTION 3 (G) LIBERATION THROUGH KNOWLEDGE.
> ====================================================
> The Advaitins hold that once the Jeeva acquires the knowledge of its
> identity with the ParamAtma, it acquires liberation.
>
> Comment of Other Schools:
> The other schools do not accept this because mere knowledge is not
> enough.
> - Merely knowing that hunger will be abated by food,
> - Merely knowing that thirst will be quenched by drinking water,
> - Merely knowing that ailments can be cured by medication
> Cannot entail the relevant results unless action is taken to
> actually consume the food, drink or medicine respectively.
> - A mere knowledge of the route cannot take one to the
> destination unless one actually travels towards the destination.
> Knowledge is, of course, necessary as a motivating force for
> performing appropriate action of say, Karma yoga, Bhakti yoga or
> Prapatti as the case may be, which would qualify one for liberation
>
> Prof. Narayanachariar argues-
> "The knowledge of a new city one has "not actually visited", can be
> first gained through a guidebook or a map, for the exact location of
> a building or a street and on that basis when we actually visit that
> city the "experience" now gained is not cancellatory of the former
> but confirmatory only.
>
> Similarly, the photograph of a living person, which we first see, and
> then the person himself - the two experiences are corroborative and
> not contradictory.
>
> Thus for Bhagavad RamAnuja, the Paravidyas constitute a direct means
> to God-vision as understood by Veda VyAsa and his venerable father
> ParAsara. The knowledge per se does NOT lead to mOksha but opens up a
> means to be adopted for attaining mOksha"
>
> Talking about 'Knowledge', Brahma Sutram starts with the opening
> sentence thus:-
> " Om atha atah brahma jignasaa" -
> "Hereafter, Therefore, the desire to know Brahman".
>
> In this Sutra, we have
> FIRST, the Brahman whose knowledge is desired;
> SECONDLY, we have the desire to know (Jignasa).
> THIDLY, We have the desire to know Brahman as a 'sequence'
> (Atha) and as a consequence (Atah) of an antecedent occurrence.
>
> All the following quotes are from Sri R. Kesava Iyengar's foreword
> to "SathadooshaNi" by Sri Srivatsankachariar Swami.
>
> *This opening sentence, according to Sri Vedanta Desika is
> incompatible with the system of both Nirvisesha' and 'Advaita'-
> because the entity desiring to know is unreal and non-existent as per
> the Nirvisesha Advaitins*
>
> *There is nothing with reference to which there can be sense-
> signification for there is no sense to be signified at all*
>
> As Swami Desika puts it.
> *If the word signifies 'sense' 'Nirvisesha' is gone;
> If it does not, 'Brahman' is gone-like the birth of a grandchild to a
> barren woman*
>
> *First, a Nirvisesha Brahman is incapable of being an object of
> knowledge ... *
>
> *Secondly, there can be no 'desire to know'. Unless there is
> something in Brahman which it is desirable to know. There can be no
> desire to know a bare being Brahman in all its emptiness of husk and
> in all jejuneness of vacuity.
>
> *Unless there is something inherent in and characteristic of Brahman
> which can kindle desire in the knower, no desire to know Brahman can
> at all originate" ... When the knower is an illusion like a burnt
> cloth to use a metaphor of the Advaitins -'dagda paTa'*
>
> *There is no knower, and there can be no knowledge.
> Without a knower to know and an object to be known, all talk of
> knowledge leading to liberation can only be trick of duplicity and
> not a fact of experience*(Kesava Iyengar p.50 ibid)
>
> *It is not correct to say that Knowledge of oneness of 'ParamAtma
> and JeevAtma is mOksha ' and the knowledge of differentiation between
> them is "SamsAra*
>
> *The person who has no belief in the liberating knowledge provided by
> the Vedas, the knower, the one who bestows knowledge (i.e.) the
> Saastras that is the source of knowledge that dispels ignorance-
> *If all these are false, how can one talk about 'desire for
> knowledge' or the 'efficacy of instruction' (UpadEsa)? *
>
> *Verbal knowledge is per se unfruitful. It has to be experienced by
> the hearer. The verbal knowledge that mango is sweet, however valid
> and authentic, remains per se unfruitful to the hearer until he
> tastes it himself*
>
> "When a tiger cub, which lived with a flock of sheep was reminded
> that it was indeed a tiger cub and not sheep, by practically
> demonstrating its feeding on a bloody carcass.
>
> *To say that he 'knew' he was a tiger would be weak indeed. He now'
> was' a tiger"(Troy Wilson Organ, p.33)
>
> Prof. Narayanachariar adds:
> *" The 'atha' preceding the AadEsa (the instruction) and the 'atah'
> (therefore) further making the transmission of meaning continuous and
> smooth and not indicating a contrary message of contrast, in which
> case, the connectives would be "Thu" (but or on the contrary). The
> AadEsa follows as a 'Corollary' and not emerges
> as 'disrupting', 'devastating' conclusion to the contrary"*
> ====================================================
> SECTION 3 (H) JEEVAN MUKTI
> (LIBERATION WHILE LIVING IN THE PHYSICAL BODY)
> ===================================================
> The Advaitins hold that it is possible for the individual soul to
> attain liberation while still living in the phenomenal world with the
> gross body - if it realizes its unity with Brahman since realization
> (or knowledge) is enough to secure liberation. Several examples are
> cited to illustrate how the body continues even after one attains
> what they call ' Jeevan Mukti'
>
> (i) When once a wheel is turned around, even when we take off our
> hand, it continues to revolve due to the momentum gained while it was
> turned around.
>
> (ii) When a vehicle moves fast, even when the brake is applied, it
> screeches to a halt only after traversing at least a short distance
> from the point where the brake is applied.
>
> (iii) In Viveka ChooDAmaNi, Adhi Sankara compares the body of a
> Jeevan mukta to the dry leaves clinging to the branches of a tree
> during the fall season or a cucumber fruit that had over- ripened
> clinging to the branch of the tree before finally falling down.
>
> Advaitins call this 'Cucumber liberation'.
>
> COMMENT OF OTHER SCHOOLS:
> The other schools do not accept this 'Jeevan Mukti'.
> They hold that liberation can be attained only on the fall of the
> body. This is called ' Videha Mukti'- 'Out of body liberation'-which
> can arise only on death. This is because, as Visishtadvaita holds, on
> performance of Prapatti, all sins are extinguished except that
> portion of PrArabda karma which the ' Dripta' Prapanna has agreed to
> experience till the time comes for the fall of his body in the normal
> course.
>
> And, the very existence of the body is a result of such karma and is
> required for experiencing the results of such karma. Only at the time
> of death, there will be a nil balance of Karma thus entitling the
> Prapanna to MOksha.
>
> Here is an excerpt from Satapata Brahmana of Yajurveda
> As translated by Sir Monier Williams and quoted by Gerber (p.3) which
> would show that the 'Jeevan Mukti' concept is not valid and
> only 'Videha Mukti' is acknowledged in the Vedas. -
>
> " The Gods lived constantly in dread of death-
> The mighty Ender - So, with toilsome rites
> They worshipped and performed religious acts
> Till they became immortal;
> Then, the Ender said to the Gods-
> "As you have made yourselves
> Imperishable, so will men endeavor
> To free themselves from me;
> What portion then shall I possess in man?'
> The Gods replied-
> 'Henceforth no being shall become immortal
> In his own body; this his mortal frame
> Shall thou still seize?
> This shall remain thine own -
> He who through Knowledge or religious works
> Henceforth attains to immortality
> Shall first present his body, Death, to thee"'
>
> The Advaitins call this ' Krama Mukti' open to those souls that have
> not realized their identity with the ParamAtma.
> ====================================================
> GRD 7: SECTION 4: COMMON GROUNDS AS BETWEEN
> ADVAITA, DVAITA AND VISISHTADVAITA will follow
> ====================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:27:22 -0800 (PST)
> From: Narender Reddy <reddynp@xxxx>
> Subject: Re: A Humble Correction to Mr GK Ramakrishnan's mail ...
>
>
> --- Anand K Karalapakkam <kgk@xxxx> wrote:
> > SrI:
> > SrImatE rAmAnujAya namaH
> >
> > namO nArAyaNa!
> >
> >I would like to remind you that this
> > list has the
> > basis of SrI VaishNava SampradAya. Kindly read the
> > following
> > The Sanskrit term "Vigraha" is very much used
> to
> > denote
> > archA-avatAram of PerumAL {Like "Vigraha
> > AarAdhanam" etc}.
> > "Idol" is its English equivalent. There is nothing
> > wrong
> > in that word as such to denote PerumAL.
>
> Is it not that the word "Idol" represents ideation?
> Perhaps, you should go to the Latin root for the word
> to extract the real meaning (jest like we go to the
> Sanskrit root for our words) then perhaps you will be
> able to conclude if we couyld use it to denote God (I
> accept only one God Lord Sriman Narayana). I feel that
> there is everything wrong in using the word "IDOL."
>
> Yes, in the age of Kali yuga, when a majority of the
> so called Sri Vaishnavas are clebrating the mid night
> of January first (Christian New Year) as their own New
> Year, and celebrating the Christian Millianeium as
> their own sending Christian Millianium greetings to
> one another (even on the internet), I guess God could
> be reduced to that of an "IDOL."
>
> Do you go to a respected Swami and call him "He Guy?"
> However, there are some of us either Sri Vaishnavas or
> not who might feel it insulting to refer God's Sri
> Vigraham as "Idol."
>
> > modern thinkers
> > started criticizing "Idol Worship" etc and the
> > name "Idol" got
> > involved in such issues while referring to PerumAL
> > => Usage
> > of this word became mis-leading. Thus, we may
> > resort to other terms.
>
> > There is a lot of difference between Lord's
> > picture and
> > His archA-avatAram like either Vigraha Or
> > SAlagrAma-MUrti.
> > The former is only a representation of Him with
> > His divine
> > form {the paper etc being prakruti only} and the
> > latter is
> > verily Himself with the suddha-sattva form {either
> > due
> > to consecration by Aagamas Or taken by Lord
> > Himself on His
> > own}.
>
> Are you saying that the Archa Murthy in my home is not
> God or does not have the same power. Isopanishad
> declares: "Purnam Ada Purnamidam..." The Archa Murthy
> has the same power as in the Nitya Vibhoothi. When he
> descends, he descds with all his power. How about a
> guy
> who does not have a moorthy in the house or he is
> travelling, and he has only a photo calender. Suppose,
> he does arch to that form. Do you think that God does
> not accept that archa?
>
> In the service of Lord Sri Venkateswara, I remain,
>
> Sincerely
> Narender Reddy
> reddynp@xxxx
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 03:26:09 -0000
> From: sriharirag@xxxx
> Subject: Re: http://www.radioramanuja.com/ - Prabhandam On-Line
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> Srimathe Narayanaye namah...
>
> I am a student here in USA and I had always felt a need for learning
> Divya Prabandham and this site has given me a way to do so.
> The recitation by Dr. MAV and others is very clear and it was like
> music to my ears hearing the Divya Prabandam.
> My humble namaskarams to the feet of all the people involved in this
> project.
>
> Adiyen
> Srihari Raghavan
>
> > --- Pattangi <danp@xxxx> wrote:
> > > SrimathE rAmAnujAya namaha
> > >
> > > Dear Devotees:
> > >
> > > With the divine blessings of Lord Sriman Narayana
> > > and our achAryAs, we
> > > have started work on radioramanuja.com
> > >
> > > This is an attempt to bring 4000 Divya Prabhandam &
> > > Vedas Chanting from
> > > authentic sources.
> > > In the near future we will also have Santhai format
> > > on-line for those who
> > > want to learn.
> > >
> > > We have most of Periyazhwar's pasurams on line. We
> > > are counting on your
> > > feedback as to the quality of
> > > audio & any improvements that could be done.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.radioramanuja.com/
> > >
> > > You will need realplayer installed in your machine
> > > to hear realaudio.
> > >
> > > We are trying to get approval from original sources
> > > in India, and once we
> > > have it as time permits,
> > > we will be putting up Chants in four major styles:
> > > Kancheepuram, Srirangam,
> > > Thirupathi, Thiruvalikkeni
> > >
> > > Shri. Venkat and others from Bahrain
> > > (rmvenkat@xxxx) have done a
> > > wonderful job of putting
> > > the text and audio on-line:
> > > http://www.srivaishnava.20m.com/prabandham.htm
> > >
> > > With LORD SRIMAN NARAYANA's grace we could start
> > > this process,
> > > and with his blessings we look forward to making
> > > progress.
> > >
> > > AzhwAr EmberumAnAr Jeeyar ThiruvadigalE saranam
> > >
> > > adiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan
> > > Mukundan Vankipuram Pattangi
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Srirangasri-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > eating beef and meat of pig is considered sin by Hindus. we treat
> cow as kamadhenu.Moreover science says eating these two meat has
> carbon contents. This is injurious to stomach and health.Avoid non
> vegetarian food at any cost.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>





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