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SriRangaSri List Archive: Message 00067 May 2005

 
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Dear Bhagavatas:
As rightly pointed out by sshankar@xxxxxxxxx, 
any further discussions on the subject may be 
had in private mails.
Moderator.
================================================================



Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha
Srimathe Vedantha Desikaya Namaha
Srimath VaraVara Munaye Namaha

Dear Sri. Krishna Kashyap

Adiyen salute you for your wonderful explanation to
the question adiyen have raised. Also, at the outset,
adiyen would like to clearly state that it is not in
anyway my intention to trigger a discussion tilting on
the side of critizing other vishnava systems. 

As you have aptly pointed out the pramanas namely
Vedas and Upanishads should be the ultimate concluding
statements and not merely puranas or smritis.

It is needless to say that all SriVaishnavas in this
esteemed forum will be delighted, if our scholars
provide a detailed reply to this issue. As you have
rightly mentioned, understanding these subtle delicate
issues clearly makes one stronger in their system
and also build our tolerance of other systems.
However, in my humble opinion this is not a minor
issue.

Adiyen

Ramanuja Dasan
Sampath Kumar..


--- Krishna Kashyap <krishna@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Adiyen Request bhagawatas who are close to acharyas
> back home and get
> answers to this important question and this needs to
> be answered
> "professionally". I had requested Sri Anbil Mama to
> do something about
> this. He is busy currently. I am sure sri Anand
> Karalapakkam had done
> some research on this. I am sure Sri M.S Srihari and
> others who are in
> India can offer assistance here. If anyone can
> cotact them, they will
> be able to write a thorough reply. I feel that this
> is a "delicate
> issue" since we are handling a difference among
> vaishnavas. This should
> not try to destroy our unity as vaishnvas as a whole
> community. We
> should respect all vaishnavas or else we will go
> against our sincere
> principles: tvad britya britya paricharaka
> britya.... ( being a servant
> of HIS servants is an important characteristic of a
> vaishnava). I urge
> you not to indulge in criticizing other schools or
> disrespect other
> vaishnavas. We don't need more sin.
> 
> However our srivaishnavas have to understand the
> subtleties clearly.
> Neither these minor issues should not be taken as
> reasons for leaving
> camps NOR should be used for recruiting weak minded
> people into a any
> particular sect.
> 
> In short, 
> 
> Srimannarayana and Srikrishna are the one and the
> same identical person
> as per the shastras. Note that Sri Vedantadesika has
> done research as to
> which mantram is most encompassing and decided that
> "moolamantram, which
> speaks of Narayana" as ultimate all encompassing
> mantram even in
> comparison with mantrams that involve "vasudeva or
> Vishnu etc."
> .
> The proofs offered by other schools regarding
> differences between
> goloka, vaikunta etc. are only attempts to highlight
> their eka bhakti to
> lord Krishna. Even among our own alwars, they have
> shown immense bhakti
> to a particular form such as Sri Ranganatha or Sri
> Venkatesa etc. The
> pramanas cited by others from bramha vaivarta
> purana, radhopanisad, etc.
> only help to exemplify pure Bhakti as the highest
> goal. Even
> srivaishnava doctrines agree that in vaikuntam one
> experiences this
> nitya bhakti or eternal bhakti. It is ridiculous to
> imagine that
> madhurya bhakti cannot be explained in vaikuntam.
> Sri Nammalwars' dozens
> of verses on madhurya bhakti and how he does
> prapatti to Sri Srinivasar
> and attains vaikuntam are sufficient to erase this
> misconception. If one
> wants to experience Lord as Krishna or prema bhakti,
> that can be granted
> in Vaikunta also.  The shastras are clear regarding
> the superiority of
> vaikuntam as place of apunaravritti or place from
> where there is no
> return. Goloka can be thought of a place within
> vaikunta, since there
> are rigvedic passages such as "yatra gavo bhuri
> shringah ayasah -
> (please check this quote since I am trying to write
> from memory) -
> meaning:  in vaikuntam, there are cows with big
> horns. Note: some
> schools have misunderstood vaikunta from where
> jayavijaya fell due to
> curse. There can be no curse or anger in vaikuntam.
> No such thoughts can
> bother those who have reached vaikuntam other than
> being immersed in the
> complete experience of srimannarayana (paripurna
> bramha ananda
> anubhavam). Hence the vaikunta mentioned in the
> puranas is a lower place
> within prakrithi mandalam (or matter) called karya
> vaikuntam, where
> jayavijaya were door keepers. The shores of this
> ksheerabdhi is where
> devas go and fall at the feet of the Lord to get
> protection from asuras.
> Hence the statements from Bramha Samhita, bramha
> vaivarta purana quoted
> only by the gaudiya vaishnavas, which may indicate
> goloka as different
> or higher than vaikunta have to be understood only
> in the sense that the
> madhurya bhakti is of a state of bhakti for a soul.
> If they want to use
> these statements to enhance their bhakti to sri
> krishna, let them do it.
> We should understand this properly. These statements
> in puranas have
> nothing to do with belittling the status of vaikunta
> to another place
> called goloka / brindavana. These kind of polemic
> battles exist only to
> keep people within their systems but do not have any
> other significance.
> Note puranic or smriti evidence should not be taken
> as primary. Note the
> verse from taittiriya mahanarayana Upanishad - which
> starts from ambasya
> pare bhuvanasya madhye...has a state ment: na
> tasyese kaschana tasya
> nama mahadyasah...meaning: HE ( srimannarayana) does
> not have anyone as
> his ruler! Hence he is known as Mahad Yasah. Don't
> tell me some puranic
> statement will nullify this vedic statement to make
> Srimannarayana as
> being born out of Krishna and Krishna is the ruler
> of Srimannarayana
> who resides in each anda as the caretaker of that
> anda and there are
> several vaikunta planets etc.....All these are
> wonderful smrti texts are
> to guide people to have faith in SriKrishna.
> Srivaishnava view is that
> Sri Krishna and Srimannararayana is one and the
> same: esa narayanah
> sriman ksirarnava niketanah naga paryakam utrsrijya
> hyagato madhuram
> purim. "This Sri Krishna is none other than
> Srimannarayana who has left
> his snake bed ( adisesa) to come to the city of
> Mathura ". Sri Vedanta
> Desika states in yadavabhudayam:
> 
> Devaki danuja sthuna divyam dhama vrajankanam
> Rama Radhadayascheti Rasi bhedena Bhidyase
> 
> Meaning: O lord Krishna, you are the one and same
> person being different
> only due to being in two camps: Up there in Divya
> dhama : vaikunta or
> here in Vraja ( brindavan), whether in the womb of
> Devaki or in the
> pillar from where SriNarasimha appeared, whether it
> is with Rama (or Sri
> Lakshmi there in Vaikuntam) or with Radha here in
> Vraja.
> 
> I don't have enough knowledge to write all details.
> There may be errors
> in this small article too. I pray to knowledgeable
> people to correct
> this article or clarify the issues presented.
> 
> Adiyen
> Krishna Kashyap
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SriRangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:SriRangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Janaki & Sampath Kumar
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 7:50 AM
> To: SriRangaSri@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SriRangaSri] Parathvam of Sriman Narayana
> Vs. Krishna
> 
> Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha
> Srimathe Vedhantha Desikaya Namaha
> Srimath VaraVara Munaye Namaha
> 
> Respected Sri Vaishnava Baghavathas
> 
> Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan Sampath Kumar. This is my
> first question in this
> scholarly forum. 
> 
> In our SriVaishnava Sidhantham it is established
> that Sriman Narayanan
> residing in Vaikunta Lokam is parathvam and Krishna
> is avatharam
> (Vibhavam) of Sriman Narayanan and Krishna is an
> expansion of Sriman
> Narayanan. However, there are other schools of
> Vaishnavism (especially
> Gaudia Vaishnavism) which staunchly advocate that
> Krishna 
=== message truncated ===



                
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