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by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 2nd, 2021, 4:12 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

Welcome Stephen and thanks for the breath of fresh air! each part of the sentence establishes a different and incompatible topic/reference time (one before Abraham's birth, the other at the momment of Jesus's speaking). So there's a clash, and I don't think this clash is going to be resolved grammat...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 7:47 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

“Πρὸ τοῦ με πλάσαι σε ἐν κοιλίᾳ ἐπίσταμαί σε καὶ πρὸ τοῦ σε ἐξελθεῖν ἐκ μήτρας ἡγίακά σε, προφήτην εἰς ἔθνη τέθεικά σε.” (Jeremiah 1:5 Greek Septuagint) I think that hits all the points, πρό τοῦ, aorist infinitive, present main verb albeit in the middle. Looks like so, although I won't check this c...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 7:35 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

But my point is that the use of the imperfect ημην signaled a change of state. And my point is that it doesn't. Language just doesn't work that way. I don't give any credence on ancient religional-philosophical discussions about proper theological language when we talk about how (any) language is a...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 6:30 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

Also ημην isn’t an option because it would signal a past event without continuing results and since the be verb is stative it would signal a cessation of existence. Not so, and that's what I commented in my earlier post. It's a grave mistake to think that using a certain tense limits how the event ...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 6:08 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

I would also be interested in hearing if cross-linguistic research could shed some light on this. "Before x happened, y is(PRESENT)" is ungrammatical in English, so is the corresponding sentence in Finnish. In both imperfect or perfect tense form would be used. That's because in normal di...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 5:52 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

I can’t concede that Jesus didn’t have the glory he had at the time before the world was. Maybe you misread what I wrote? Jesus having the glory before the world was is what is stated explicitly. But implictly it continues even after the world began to exist. My point is that choosing between the i...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 2:27 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (John 17:5 GNT28-) That's exactly what we would expect in John 8:58, too. The main verb is in imperfect because it refers to the time before existence of the world. If I'm allowed a little bit of exegetical...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 1:31 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

Eeli, the aorist with infinitives seems to be the default tense form so very little significance about its time can be drawn from this. Yes, and aspect of the infinitive (not tense in linguistic/semantic sense!) isn't any kind of problem here. When I'm talking about time here I'm talking about poin...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 10:51 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

Actually, I think Scott is pointing at something important. The normal thing you would expect is that an aorist infinitive γενέσθαι indicates something that happened before the corresponding main verb εἰμί. But πρὶν conflicts with the normal way of reading, it's very marked. If we detach an infinit...
by Eeli Kaikkonen
August 1st, 2021, 8:29 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 74
Views: 992

Re: John 8:58

From Wallace’s GGBB: Time This use of the infinitive indicates a temporal relationship between its action and the action of the controlling verb. It answers the question, “When?” I think you are reading too much into Wallace. The "controlling" verb seems to just mean the main verb of the ...

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