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by Jonathan Robie
August 3rd, 2021, 3:03 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

Would anyone be able to tell how to do a search in a publicly available database in extant extrabiblical Koine literature, to search for πριν and προ του? It should preferably have links to texts and translations. Depending on the amount of hits I might want to take a closer look. If there are many...
by Jonathan Robie
August 3rd, 2021, 7:33 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

Jonathan None of the examples have a controlling verb that is a linking verb with an unexpressed predicate and at the same time acting as the main verb for the infinitive. But I’ve marked out the controlling verbs for the infinitives anyway with two asterisks. One on each side of the verb. I’ve als...
by Jonathan Robie
August 2nd, 2021, 6:45 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

If we were to read εγω ειμι as having an unexpressed predicate, perhaps Christ or God, then what would the main verb be for the infinitive of the subordination clause? Can ειμι serve double duty as a linking verb expressing identity as well as the controlling verb for the infinitive? This seems ext...
by Jonathan Robie
August 2nd, 2021, 1:02 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

Daniel can you do a search for επιστηκα on Accordance? And perhaps Jonathan Robie can do one on Perseus. I can’t seem to figure out how…maybe it’s because I use my iPhone exclusively. I have been doing my searches on the Lowfat treebanks for the Greek New Testament, not Perseus. I don't know a way ...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 6:17 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

So I looked at this for the NT only (I would like to do a wider check but I don't have the time just now). There are no examples with πρίν. But with πρό τοῦ: “μὴ οὖν ὁμοιωθῆτε αὐτοῖς· οἶδεν γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὧν χρείαν ἔχετε πρὸ τοῦ ὑμᾶς αἰτῆσαι αὐτόν.” (Matthew 6:8 Novum Testamentum Graece (New Test...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 5:43 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

The πρίν clause is normal, it means "before", the infinitive + accusative is part of the πρίν construction. This is covered in the "Temporal Clauses" chapter in "The Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek". When the matrix clause is affirmative (not-negative), πρίν is nor...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 9:14 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

From Wallace’s GGBB: Time This use of the infinitive indicates a temporal relationship between its action and the action of the controlling verb. It answers the question, “When?” I think you are reading too much into Wallace. The "controlling" verb seems to just mean the main verb of the ...
by Jonathan Robie
August 1st, 2021, 8:59 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

In those examples it's easy to see what can fill in the ellipsis. It must be something readily cognitively available and active. For example "it's me (and not something else like a ghost)". Or "The one you are talking about - I'm that one". There just isn't anything like that in...
by Jonathan Robie
July 31st, 2021, 4:50 pm
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

I think the syntax is fairly straightforward here. I think the syntax, grammar and semantics of the πριν clause are straightforward. But the grammar of the present tense of the main verb in this context isn't. Exactly. The present tense is a surprise, and it's one real issue in this verse. Nobody h...
by Jonathan Robie
July 31st, 2021, 8:01 am
Forum: Syntax and Grammar
Topic: John 8:58
Replies: 84
Views: 1156

Re: John 8:58

I think the syntax is fairly straightforward here. I agree with Barry, πρίν narrows it down. But of course, once you understand the syntax, there are a variety of things that it could mean. The real question is this: what did Jesus mean when he said this? As often happens, things get complicated whe...

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