John 8:54 pronoun

[erichard]

I have a question from John 8:54. https://biblehub.com/text/john/8-54.htm

Is the word ὃν [of whom] as a pronoun referring back to με [me] or is it referring back to Πατήρ [Father] or could it be either way and thus not certain?

[Barry Hofstetter]

I have a question from John 8:54. https://biblehub.com/text/john/8-54.htm

Is the word ὃν [of whom] as a pronoun referring back to με [me] or is it referring back to Πατήρ [Father] or could it be either way and thus not certain?

Eric, please quote the Greek directly rather than providing a link:

 ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς, Ἐὰν ἐγὼ δοξάσω ἐμαυτόν, ἡ δόξα μου οὐδέν ἐστιν· ἔστιν ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ δοξάζων με, ὃν ὑμεῖς λέγετε ὅτι θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν...

It's not "of whom" (that would imply the form is genitive, but here it's accusative) simply "whom." Contextually, it has to refer to the Father, because they certainly aren't saying that Jesus is "our God."

[erichard]

Thank you!

My understanding of this verse is that in it Jesus says that his Father is the one that the Jews say is their God.

The Jews say that Jehovah is their God, so that means that in this verse Jesus is saying that Jehovah is his Father.

But someone who claims that Jesus was Jehovah coming to earth -- which I think is a common belief-- argued that "whom" refers back to "me" and since "me" (Jesus) am Jehovah (unbeknown to you Jews) you Jews say I am your God.

So I wondered what an expert scholar in Biblical Greek grammar would say about this, and appreciate your reply.

"Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: --John 8:54

[Barry Hofstetter]

Thank you!

My understanding of this verse is that in it Jesus says that his Father is the one that the Jews say is their God.

The Jews say that Jehovah is their God, so that means that in this verse Jesus is saying that Jehovah is his Father.

But someone who claims that Jesus was Jehovah coming to earth -- which I think is a common belief-- argued that "whom" refers back to "me" and since "me" (Jesus) am Jehovah (unbeknown to you Jews) you Jews say I am your God.

So I wondered what an expert scholar in Biblical Greek grammar would say about this, and appreciate your reply.

"Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: --John 8:54

Yeah, that argument doesn't work here. They may have in mind that the relative pronoun often refers to the nearest noun preceding it, which in this case would be the pronoun με. However, it may also often refer to the most salient noun in the context, which in this case would be the Father, and which makes much better sense here. The argument your interlocutor used is far more theological than grammatical.

[Jason Hare]

The Jews say that Jehovah is their God, so that means that in this verse Jesus is saying that Jehovah is his Father.

Just to be clear, I’ve never heard a Jew say that “Jehovah” was their God (and I live in Israel). In fact, saying “Jehovah” (or any other pronunciation of יהוה) is offensive to Jewish sensibilities almost everywhere. Just saying...

[Jason Hare]

ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς, Ἐὰν ἐγὼ δοξάσω ἐμαυτόν, ἡ δόξα μου οὐδέν ἐστιν· ἔστιν ὁ πατήρ μου ὁ δοξάζων με, ὃν ὑμεῖς λέγετε ὅτι θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν...

It seems most sensible to me to read ὅν as referring back to ὁ πατήρ μου. I don’t think it could be read otherwise. It should be read more directly as:

ὑμεῖς λέγετε [τὸν πατέρα μου] ὅτι θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν...
You say [of my father], “He is our God...”

I’d take the accusative here as the accusative of reference and indeed say “of” or “concerning” in my reading of it.

[Jason Hare]

Is the word ὃν [of whom] as a pronoun referring back to με [me] or is it referring back to Πατήρ [Father] or could it be either way and thus not certain?

Are you suggesting that Jesus was telling a group of Jews that they called him their God?

ὑμεὶς λέγετέ [με] ὅτι θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν...
You say [of me], “He is our God...”

This seems utterly impossible. What Jews were calling Jesus their God?

[erichard]

OK. And yet even without saying the name their theology is that יהוה is their God. Right?

I have read that יהוה is mentioned 6828 times in the Hebrew Bible as the God of Israel.

[erichard]

Is the word ὃν [of whom] as a pronoun referring back to με [me] or is it referring back to Πατήρ [Father] or could it be either way and thus not certain?

Are you suggesting that Jesus was telling a group of Jews that they called him their God?

ὑμεὶς λέγετέ [με] ὅτι θεὸς ἡμῶν ἐστιν...
You say [of me], “He is our God...”

This seems utterly impossible. What Jews were calling Jesus their God?

Someone else, not me, argued that ὃν [of whom] as a pronoun referred back to με [me] and not to o Πατήρ [Father].

[Jason Hare]

OK. And yet even without saying the name their theology is that יהוה is their God. Right?

I have read that יהוה is mentioned 6828 times in the Hebrew Bible as the God of Israel.

My Logos search engine returns 6,828 instances of יהוה (as you indicated), but I think it varies based on which text you pull your count from. That’s an acceptable number. It’s safe to say that Jews (as a whole, with exceptions) consider יהוה to be their God.