Omission of the copula

Biblical Greek morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
Jean Putmans
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jean Putmans »

"Omission": You are right; I just didn't know what header to choose.
Jean Putmans
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jean Putmans wrote: September 20th, 2021, 1:25 pm "Omission": You are right; I just didn't know what header to choose.
You can always call it “null copula” or “zero copula.”
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jean Putmans wrote: September 20th, 2021, 11:14 am Sorry,

not Robbie but Jonathan!!!
FWIW, when I lived in Germany this happened all the time - my last name (Robie, one "b") sounds like a first name to Germans and Dutch. But yes, Jonathan is my first name.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Jean Putmans
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jean Putmans »

Jonathan,

I recognize this:

My name Jean (my mother was a Belgian) is a male name, in the english speaking part of the world it is a female name, so mostly written answers start with something like "Dear mrs. ...."

Germans too never know, how to pronounce my name and whether it's a female / male name (unless they like the Jean Gabin films!).

Regards
Jean
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
RandallButh
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by RandallButh »

I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jonathan Robie »

RandallButh wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
Here are two:

https://scaife.perseus.org/search/?q=%2 ... tances&p=1

Epictetus, Discourses, Book 2 Chapter 19 Section 16 (2.19.16) edition

οὐκ ἄρας ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν παίζεις.

Gellius, Aulus, Attic Nights, Book 1 Chapter 2 Section 11 (1.2.11) edition

δόγμα σαυτοῦ πεποίησαι. Δείκνυε πῶς εἴωθας ἐν πλοίῳ χειμάζεσθαι· γυμνάζεσθαι Arrian. μέμνησαι ταύτης τῆς διαιρέσεως, ὅταν ψοφήσῃ τὸ ἱστίον καὶ ἀνακραυγάσῃς. Ἄν σοί τις κακόσχολός πως παραστὰς εἴπῃ, λέγε μοι, τοὺς θεούς σοι, ἃ πρῴην ἔλεγες, μή τι κακία ἐστὶν τὸ ναυαγῆσαι; μήτι κακίας μετέχον; οὐκ ἄρα γυμνάζεσθαι, Arrian. ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα, καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν ...
αὐτῶν λέγειν‘‘ ἔα, τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοὶ, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ; ἦλθες πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς;”
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
S Walch
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by S Walch »

The following webpage gives some native-Greek examples (plus it has a comment from a certain someone who also posts a B-Greek):

https://danielstreett.com/2012/10/29/jo ... ss-of-tlg/
Jason Hare
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jason Hare »

Jean Putmans wrote: September 18th, 2021, 10:19 am I mean these specific phrases (τι ημιν και σοι/ τι σοι / τι μοι etc).

I had a look in Mayser Vol II-3 page16 ff: none of the above mentioned phrases are mentioned there (unless I overlooked one).

Regards,
Jean
I read τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί as a Semitic phrase translating the Hebrew מַה־לִּי וָלָךְ (see 2 Chron 35:21). I don't see why this would exist in classical Greek sources as an expression.
Jason A. Hare
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Jason Hare
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Jason Hare »

Jonathan Robie wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:59 pm
RandallButh wrote: September 21st, 2021, 12:08 pm I would appreciate seeing attestations of τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί in non-Christian influenced, non-Jewish sources.
I remember looking at this many a year ago but I don't have access to my books at the present. I seem to recall seeing something in classical sources, but in any case the likelihood of the phrase being Jewish/Hebrew-influenced in the Gospels remains.
Here are two:

https://scaife.perseus.org/search/?q=%2 ... tances&p=1

Epictetus, Discourses, Book 2 Chapter 19 Section 16 (2.19.16) edition

οὐκ ἄρας ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν παίζεις.

Gellius, Aulus, Attic Nights, Book 1 Chapter 2 Section 11 (1.2.11) edition

δόγμα σαυτοῦ πεποίησαι. Δείκνυε πῶς εἴωθας ἐν πλοίῳ χειμάζεσθαι· γυμνάζεσθαι Arrian. μέμνησαι ταύτης τῆς διαιρέσεως, ὅταν ψοφήσῃ τὸ ἱστίον καὶ ἀνακραυγάσῃς. Ἄν σοί τις κακόσχολός πως παραστὰς εἴπῃ, λέγε μοι, τοὺς θεούς σοι, ἃ πρῴην ἔλεγες, μή τι κακία ἐστὶν τὸ ναυαγῆσαι; μήτι κακίας μετέχον; οὐκ ἄρα γυμνάζεσθαι, Arrian. ξύλον ἐνσείσεις αὐτῷ; τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοί, ἄνθρωπε; ἀπολλύμεθα, καὶ σὺ ἐλθὼν ...
αὐτῶν λέγειν‘‘ ἔα, τί ἡμῖν καὶ σοὶ, υἱὲ τοῦ θεοῦ; ἦλθες πρὸ καιροῦ βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς;”
Is it really impossible for these authors (who were not from the Classical period) to have been influenced by the Septuagint or to have picked this phrase up from Hellenistic Jews or Christians?
Jason A. Hare
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Omission of the copula

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jason Hare wrote: September 23rd, 2021, 2:00 am Is it really impossible for these authors (who were not from the Classical period) to have been influenced by the Septuagint or to have picked this phrase up from Hellenistic Jews or Christians?
It’s never impossible (what really is?) but these two are good Greek writers which renders a Semitism an unnecessary hypothesis
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
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