Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Biblical Greek morphology and syntax, aspect, linguistics, discourse analysis, and related topics
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Jean Putmans
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Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Jean Putmans »

In Mk 1:7
και εκηρυσσεν λεγων ερχεται ο ισχυροτεροσ μου οπισω μου ου ουκ ειμι ικανοσ κυψασ λυσαι τον ιμαντα των υποδηματων αυτου

o ισχυροτεροσ μου = one stronger than me (comparative + Genitivus Comparationis)

The ECM Mark Apparatus lists the reading o ισχυροσ (Positive instead of Comparative).

Siebenthal (2011, § 138 c, p. 200-201), BDR/BDF (§ 245) and Zerwick (1963, § 145, p. 48) restrict the use of the Positive as Comparative to clauses with παρα, η, απο, υπερ. Schwyzer (II, 183 Note 6) and Robertson 1934 p. 660-661 do not explicitly restrict the use to these clauses.

Could the above mentioned ECM-Reading ο ισχυροσ with the genitive nevertheless be a positive, used as a comparative?
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Jean Putmans wrote: October 15th, 2021, 5:54 am In Mk 1:7
και εκηρυσσεν λεγων ερχεται ο ισχυροτεροσ μου οπισω μου ου ουκ ειμι ικανοσ κυψασ λυσαι τον ιμαντα των υποδηματων αυτου

o ισχυροτεροσ μου = one stronger than me (comparative + Genitivus Comparationis)

The ECM Mark Apparatus lists the reading o ισχυροσ (Positive instead of Comparative).

Siebenthal (2011, § 138 c, p. 200-201), BDR/BDF (§ 245) and Zerwick (1963, § 145, p. 48) restrict the use of the Positive as Comparative to clauses with παρα, η, απο, υπερ. Schwyzer (II, 183 Note 6) and Robertson 1934 p. 660-661 do not explicitly restrict the use to these clauses.

Could the above mentioned ECM-Reading ο ισχυροσ with the genitive nevertheless be a positive, used as a comparative?
I do not have access to the ECM, but I note that N-A 28 doesn't list it as a significant variant. My cum grano salis guess is that the copyist dropped a few letters, i.e., a spelling error. No, normally it could not be read as a comparative.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Jean Putmans
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Jean Putmans »

That was my first idea as well, that it merely was an error. But that probably would have caused the editors of the ECM to "regularize" the reading and mark the Mss with an "r", but they did not. It is a reading of just two Mss (20002 = Cod. Alexandrinus, and 30837), so probably indeed not very important.
Jean Putmans
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Jean Putmans wrote: October 15th, 2021, 5:54 am Schwyzer (II, 183 Note 6) and Robertson 1934 p. 660-661 do not explicitly restrict the use to these clauses.
Nor does G. L. Cooper III, Attic Greek Prose Syntax Vol. I 49.1.0 p334; 49.6.3 p341.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
S Walch
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by S Walch »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 15th, 2021, 8:52 amI do not have access to the ECM
Just an FYI, but everyone has access to the ECM of Mark and Acts - http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/ecm

The ECM is dual-published when it comes to the apparatus (hence any corrections will appear on the online apparatus before another printing); only the studies and supplementary material isn't available online.
but I note that N-A 28 doesn't list it as a significant variant. My cum grano salis guess is that the copyist dropped a few letters, i.e., a spelling error. No, normally it could not be read as a comparative.
Agreed. More than likely a drop of four letters due to the repeated ρο (= parablepsis) (ισχυροτερος).
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

S Walch wrote: October 15th, 2021, 12:11 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote: October 15th, 2021, 8:52 amI do not have access to the ECM
Just an FYI, but everyone has access to the ECM of Mark and Acts - http://ntvmr.uni-muenster.de/ecm

The ECM is dual-published when it comes to the apparatus (hence any corrections will appear on the online apparatus before another printing); only the studies and supplementary material isn't available online.
but I note that N-A 28 doesn't list it as a significant variant. My cum grano salis guess is that the copyist dropped a few letters, i.e., a spelling error. No, normally it could not be read as a comparative.
Agreed. More than likely a drop of four letters due to the repeated ρο (= parablepsis) (ισχυροτερος).
Hey, thanks for the heads up on the ECM, I didn't know. As for parablepsis, it can be dangerous. I once skipped an entire line on a midterm, and lost 13 points, while getting absolutely nothing else wrong. The professor said not to worry about it, that it wouldn't affect my final grade. Now that's חסד/χάρις!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jean Putmans wrote: October 15th, 2021, 5:54 am Could the above mentioned ECM-Reading ο ισχυροσ with the genitive nevertheless be a positive, used as a comparative?
It’s a scribal error, so it’s hard to figure out how much weight to put on it for making sense, but why not just the read the positive as it is written: “my strong one”?
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jean Putmans
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Jean Putmans »

"why not just the read the positive as it is"

I can't!

As I am comparing the Gothic Bible with the Greek Mss, my task is, to start from the Gothic (in this case a comparative form) and listing all possible readings, that could be the Vorlage for the Gothic text. So in this case, the question is, could this Positive be understood as a comparative and hence be a possible Vorlagentext (sided with the more probable comparative-readings) for the gothic comparative.
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jean Putmans wrote: October 16th, 2021, 1:48 am "why not just the read the positive as it is"

I can't!

As I am comparing the Gothic Bible with the Greek Mss, my task is, to start from the Gothic (in this case a comparative form) and listing all possible readings, that could be the Vorlage for the Gothic text. So in this case, the question is, could this Positive be understood as a comparative and hence be a possible Vorlagentext (sided with the more probable comparative-readings) for the gothic comparative.
It seems the answer depends on how likely or able the Gothic translator is able to notice and correct errors his exemplars.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jean Putmans
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Re: Comparison: Positive as Comparative

Post by Jean Putmans »

Probably the translators were at least bilingual (being a small group of Goths living between a majority of Greek speaking people), so my guess is, that they were good in Greek (better than I am!!).
Jean Putmans
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gotischebibel.blogspot.com
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