Gender concordance with the article

[Matthew Longhorn]

Quick (hopefully question). I am spending time with someone who has their Phd in classics, primarily working through Lucian’s works. During the course of one of our side discussions I was asking about the use of the article / variants of πας where there are multiple referents with different genders referred to.
He indicated that if there are lots of referents in a feminine or neuter gender, and if at least one or two in the masculine, then the preferred gender of the article / adjectives would be in the masculine gender. Any thoughts on the validity of this and its applicability as a generic rule of thumb in koine?

[Barry Hofstetter]

Quick (hopefully question). I am spending time with someone who has their Phd in classics, primarily working through Lucian’s works. During the course of one of our side discussions I was asking about the use of the article / variants of πας where there are multiple referents with different genders referred to.
He indicated that if there are lots of referents in a feminine or neuter gender, and if at least one or two in the masculine, then the preferred gender of the article / adjectives would be in the masculine gender. Any thoughts on the validity of this and its applicability as a generic rule of thumb in koine?

Did he give any specific examples, or did this come up with a passage in Lucian? I'm not going to argue with someone who has a Ph.D. in Classics (they are always right, just ask them... ) But it strikes me that you might just as often find the neuter. I don't have any examples off the top of my head, alas, but I know I've seen series of mixed gender nouns governed by one article, and I remember the neuter article in at least a couple of cases. It can also happen that the article will agree with the nearest noun to it in such cases.

[Jonathan Robie]

Quick (hopefully question). I am spending time with someone who has their Phd in classics, primarily working through Lucian’s works. During the course of one of our side discussions I was asking about the use of the article / variants of πας where there are multiple referents with different genders referred to.
He indicated that if there are lots of referents in a feminine or neuter gender, and if at least one or two in the masculine, then the preferred gender of the article / adjectives would be in the masculine gender. Any thoughts on the validity of this and its applicability as a generic rule of thumb in koine?

Smyth 1055

[*] 1055. When the persons are of different gender, the masculine prevails: ““ὡς εἶδε πατέρα τε καὶ μητέρα καὶ ἀδελφοὺς καὶ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γυναῖκα αἰχμαλώτους γεγενημένους, ἐδάκρυ_σε” when he saw that his father and mother and brothers and wife had been made prisoners of war, he burst into tears” X. C. 3.1.7.
a. But persons are sometimes regarded as things: ““ἔχω αὐτῶν καὶ τέκνα καὶ γυναῖκας φρουρούμενα” I have their children and wives under guard” X. A. 1.4.8.

Smyth 1013-1015

PECULIARITIES IN THE USE OF GENDER

[*] 1013. Construction according to the Sense (926 a).—The real, not the grammatical, gender often determines the agreement: ὦ φίλτατ᾽, ὦ περισσὰ τι_μηθεὶς τέκνον O dearest, O greatly honoured child E. Tro. 735 (this use of the attributive adjective is poetical), ““τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι” the youths conversing with one another” P. Lach. 180e, ““ταῦτ᾽ ἔλεγεν ἡ ἀναιδὴς αὕτη κεφαλή, ἐξεληλυθώς” this shameless fellow spoke thus when he came out” D. 21.117.
[*] 1014. So in periphrases: ἲ_ς Τηλεμάχοιο ἐς πατέρα ἰδών mighty Telemachus, gazing at his father π 476, ““τὸ δὲ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἡμῶν . . . χαίροντες τῇ ἐκείνων παιδιᾷ” we the elders delighting in their sport” P. L. 657d.

[*] 1015. The masculine is used for person in general: οὐκ ἀνέξεται τίκτονται ἄλλους, οὐκ ἔχουσ᾽ αὐτὴ τέκνα unfruitful herself, she will not endure that others bear children E. And. 712, ““ὁπότερος ἂν ᾖ βελτί_ων, εἴθ᾽ ὁ ἀνήρ εἴθ᾽ ἡ γυνή” which ever of the two is superior, whether the man or the woman” X. O. 7.27. So οἱ γονεῖς parents, οἱ παῖδες children. See 1055.

[Barry Hofstetter]

Jonathan, I was just about to post these same sections from Smyth, but wanted to look at the Cambridge as well.

[Matthew Longhorn]

Thanks for the replies Jonathan and Barry

Barry - I raised it off the back of a question around Matt 2:14-15 on facebook a while back related to whether τα τε προβατα και τους βοας could be epexegetical to παντας. The issue is that προβατα is a neuter - so many translations refer παντας back to the people selling. Given the presence of a masculine noun there with βοας my question to him was whether the masculine παντας would fit with this epexegetical view. I didn’t want to restrict myself to just this verse though so didn’t mention it in my initial post

Καὶ εὗρεν ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ τοὺς πωλοῦντας ⸆ βόας καὶ πρόβατα καὶ περιστερὰς καὶ τοὺς κερματιστὰς καθημένους, 15 καὶ ποιήσας ⸆ φραγέλλιον ἐκ σχοινίων πάντας ἐξέβαλεν ἐκ τοῦ ἱεροῦ τά τε πρόβατα καὶ τοὺς βόας, καὶ τῶν κολλυβιστῶν ἐξέχεεν ⸂τὸ κέρμα⸃ καὶ τὰς τραπέζας ⸀ἀνέτρεψεν,

Jonathan, related to your construction per sense - I am assuming that the animals would have been males although I can’t remember all the sacrificial laws for sheep and goats.

[Tony Pope]

If you can get hold of it, there is a helpful discussion of this in
N. Clayton Croy "The Messianic Whippersnapper: Did Jesus Use a Whip on People in the Temple (John 2:15)?" Journal of Biblical Literature 128 (2009) 555-68.

He does include discussion of the grammatical question you are asking, but in his conclusion he says, "Difficult exegetical questions are best answered not on the basis of grammatical rules alone, but by a convergence of different types of evidence". He lists five such types.

The crux was also discussed on B-Greek in three threads in 2010, of which the first starts at https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-g ... 54059.html . Some of the posts unfortunately don't wrap but often their content can be read more easily in the following reply.

[Matthew Longhorn]

Thanks for the link to the old thread and that article Tony

Thanks also for the input on just the generic issue folks