Meta Language

Daniel Semler
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Joined: February 18th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Re: Meta Language

Post by Daniel Semler »

Hi Randall,
RandallButh wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 11:35 am May I suggest using Greek metalanguage?
I have actually been trying to pick up some of the Greek metalanguage from the BLC notes I have which you wrote. I am wondering if there is a more expanded source. There are some notes in the colloquia but not very extensive, though I haven't got very far in Dickey's volume yet. In particular, I have been unable to find a word to describe what we call 'morphology'. I'll check Robertson because I didn't realize he included any of this. Any other suggestions ?

Thx
D
RandallButh
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Re: Meta Language

Post by RandallButh »

For some words we may want to use modern Greek. I am pretty sure that μορφολογία exists in modern Greek, though I haven't checked nor do I know its history.

A good place to start is ἡ τέχνη (ὁ Διονύσιος ὁ θρᾷξ)

Here is his definition of a word and a sentence:
λέξις ἐστὶ μέρος ἐλάχιστον τοῦ κατὰ σύνταξιν λόγου

Here is his intro to verbs: περὶ ῥήματος.

ῥῆμά ἐστι λέξις ἄπτωτος, ἐπιδεκτικὴ χρόνων τε καὶ προσώπων καὶ ἀριθμῶν, ἐνέργειαν ἢ πάθος παριστᾶσα.
παρέπεται δὲ τῶι ῥήματι ὀκτώ, ἐγκλίσεις, διαθέσεις, εἴδη, σχήματα, ἀριθμοί, πρόσωπα, χρόνοι, συζυγίαι.
ἐγκλίσεις μὲν οὖν εἰσι πέντε, ὁριστική, προστακτική, εὐκτική, ὑποτακτική, ἀπαρέμφατος.
διαθέσεις εἰσὶ τρεῖς, ἐνέργεια, πάθος, μεσότης· ἐνέργεια μὲν οἷον τύπτω, πάθος δὲ οἷον τύπτομαι, μεσότης δὲ ἡ ποτὲ μὲν ἐνέργειαν ποτὲ δὲ πάθος παριστᾶσα, οἷον πέπηγα διέφθορα ἐποιησάμην ἐγραψάμην.
εἴδη δὲ δύο, πρωτότυπον καὶ παράγωγον· πρωτότυπον μὲν οἷον ἄρδω, παράγωγον δὲ οἷον ἀρδεύω.
σχήματα τρία, ἁπλοῦν, σύνθετον, παρασύνθετον· ἁπλοῦν μὲν οἷον φρονῶ, σύνθετον δὲ οἷον καταφρονῶ, παρασύνθετον δὲ οἷον ἀντιγονίζω φιλιππίζω.
ἀριθμοὶ τρεῖς, ἑνικός, δυϊκός, πληθυντικός· ἑνικὸς μὲν οἷον τύπτω, δυϊκὸς δὲ οἷον τύπτετον, πληθυντικὸς δὲ οἷον τύπτομεν.
πρώσοπα τρία, πρῶτον, δεύτερον, τρίτον· πρῶτον μὲν ἀφ ̓ οὗ ὁ λόγος, δεύτερον δὲ πρὸς ὃν ὁ λόγος, τρίτον δὲ περὶ οὗ ὁ λόγος.
χρόνοι τρεῖς, ἐνεστώς, παρεληλυθώς, μέλλων. τούτων ὁ παρεληλυθὼς ἔχει διαφορὰς τέσσαρας, παρατατικόν, παρακείμενον, ὑπερσυντέλικον, ἀόριστον·
ὧν συγγένεια τρεῖς, ἐνεστῶτος πρὸς παρατατικόν, παρακειμένου πρὸς ὑπερσυντέλικον, ἀορίστου πρὸς μέλλοντα.

You may notice that he does not have a good word for "aspect" but recognises the three συγγένεια in any case.
And for some verbal morphology:

περισπωμένων δὲ ῥημάτων συζυγίαι εἰσὶ τρεῖς, ὧν (α´)
ἡ μὲν πρώτη ἐκφέρεται ἐπὶ δευτέρου καὶ τρίτου προσώπου διὰ τῆς ει διφθόγγου, οἷον νοῶ νοεῖς νοεῖ·
(β´)
ἡ δὲ δευτέρα διὰ τῆς αι διφθόγγου, προσγραφομένου τοῦ ι, μὴ συνεκφωνουμένου δέ, οἷον βοῶ βοᾶις βοᾶι·
(γ´)
ἡ δὲ τρίτη διὰ τῆς οι διφθόγγου, οἷον χρυσῶ χρυσοῖς χρυσοῖ. -
τῶν δὲ εἰς μι ληγόντων ῥημάτων συζυγίαι εἰσὶ τέσσαρες, ὧν (α´)
ἡ μὲν πρώτη +ἐκφέρεται+ ἀπὸ τῆς πρώτης τῶν περισπωμένων, ὡς ἀπὸ τοῦ τιθῶ γέγονε τίθημι·
(β´)
ἡ δὲ δευτέρα ἀπὸ τῆς δευτέρας, ὡς ἀπὸ τοῦ ἱστῶ γέγονεν ἵστημι· (γ´)
ἡ δὲ τρίτη ἀπὸ τῆς τρίτης, ὡς ἀπὸ τοῦ διδῶ γέγονε δίδωμι·
∆ιονυσίου Τέχνη 15
(δ´)
ἡ δὲ τετάρτη ἀπὸ τῆς ἕκτης τῶν βαρυτόνων, ὡς ἀπὸ τοῦ πηγνύω γέγονε πήγνυμι.
Daniel Semler
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Daniel Semler »

RandallButh wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 12:36 pm For some words we may want to use modern Greek. I am pretty sure that μορφολογία exists in modern Greek, though I haven't checked nor do I know its history.

A good place to start is ἡ τέχνη (ὁ Διονύσιος ὁ θρᾷξ)
εὐχαριστῶ σοι ! I'll look into ὁ Διονύσιος ὁ θρᾷξ.

I had been thinking to use μορφολογία. I guess I'll continue to.

Thx
D
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

RandallButh wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 12:36 pm For some words we may want to use modern Greek. I am pretty sure that μορφολογία exists in modern Greek, though I haven't checked nor do I know its history.
It does not exist in ancient Greek or medieval, though I did find μορφόλυκος, "wolf-like in appearance," which is just a fun word. From the Dictionary of Standard Modern Greek:

μορφολογία η [morfolojía] Ο25 : 1. το σύνολο των χαρακτηριστικών κάθε φυσικού όντος καθώς και η σχετική επιστημονική μελέτη: H ~ του ανθρώπινου σώματος. H ~ της γήινης επιφάνειας / μιας χώρας. 2. κλάδος της γλωσσολογίας που ασχολείται με το σχηματισμό των λέξεων (παραγωγή, σύνθεση) και τις μορφικές μεταβολές τους (γραμματική κατηγορία, κλίση) κατά το σχηματισμό των φράσεων: Φωνολογία, ~ και σύνταξη μιας γλώσσας.

https://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang ... ολογια&dq=

It's clearly borrowed back into the language from English or another European language.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
ed krentz
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Re: Meta Language

Post by ed krentz »

Look it up in the mega Lexikon yes hellenikes glosses.
It is the OXford lexicon os Greek.
Edgar Krentz
Prof. Emeritus of NT
Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: October 24th, 2020, 1:16 pm
§49 ὁ δὲ θεὸς ἥττονα γυναικείας συμβουλίας αὐτὸν γενόμενον ὑπετίθει τιμωρίᾳ, τὴν γῆν οὐκέτι μὲν οὐδὲν αὐτοῖς ἀναδώσειν αὐτομάτως εἰπών, πονοῦσι δὲ καὶ τοῖς ἔργοις τριβομένοις τὰ μὲν παρέξειν, τῶν δ ̓ οὐκ ἀξιώσειν. Εὔαν δὲ τοκετοῖς καὶ ταῖς ἐξ ὠδίνων ἀλγηδόσιν ἐκόλαζεν, ὅτι τὸν Ἄδαμον οἷς αὐτὴν ὁ ὄφις ἐξηπάτησε τούτοις παρακρουσαμένη συμφοραῖς περιέβαλεν. §50 ἀφείλετο δὲ καὶ τὸν ὄφιν τὴν φωνὴν ὀργισθεὶς
ἐπὶ τῇ κακοηθείᾳ τῇ πρὸς τὸν Ἄδαμον
Josephus, F., & Niese, B. (1888–). Flavii Iosephi opera recognovit Benedictvs Niese ... Berolini: apvd Weidmannos.
So, a follow up question. What category of middle does the middle of αφαιρεω fall into here? Indirect reflexive seems the best I can think of, in the sense of God did it in some way to benefit himself. This could be so that further instigation to sin would be prevented?
Direct reflexive doesn't seem to work, not do the other categories proposed by Rutger llan / Rachel Aubrey so far as I can see<.>
This is prime example of using meta language to mediate the cognitive distance between the reader and the text. Why do we need to know "What category of middle does the middle of αφαιρεω fall into here?" to read the text? I don't recall wondering about middle categories except when Carl Conrad addressed the topic at length.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: October 24th, 2020, 3:59 pm This is prime example of using meta language to mediate the cognitive distance between the reader and the text. Why do we need to know "What category of middle does the middle of αφαιρεω fall into here?" to read the text? I don't recall wondering about middle categories except when Carl Conrad addressed the topic at length.
Why should I not be interested in this. You may not be, that is fine. I don't get though why you would criticize a desire to understand language and to want to learn about it and not just read it. Could I read the sentence, yes; did I need to know the category of middle to do so, no. Was I interested in why a middle voice was chosen here, rather than an active, if possible, or another verb with an active, yes.

Sorry, grumpy response - but you didn't need to respond this way and publicly put me down for an interest I have in language. If you aren't interested, fine, but you don't need to suggest that other people shouldn't be. Did Rachel Aubrey and Rutger Allan waste their time on their dissertations because they discussed these things, do any of the linguists here waste their time?
mjmselim
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Location: Lakeside CA

Re: Meta Language

Post by mjmselim »

ed krentz wrote: October 24th, 2020, 9:30 am Look it up in the mega Lexikon yes hellenikes glosses.
It is the OXford lexicon os Greek.
For those interested.
1. Mega Lexicon, vol. 4. Vol. 3 cannot be found.
https://archive.org/details/megalexikontshel04knst
[Dimitrakos] Δημητράκος, Δημήτριος. 1964. Μέγα λεξικόν όλης της ελληνικής γλώσσης [Great dictionary of the entire Greek language]. Vol. 9. Λήθιοςνέκταρ. Athens: Dimitrakos.
[Mega lexikon tēs Hellēnikēs glōssēs]
by Kōnstantinidēs, Anestēs, 1846-1901; Bell, Andrew James, 1856-1932 (bookplate); Sutherland, Ida May, d. 1944, ill

2. Mega Lexicon, Vol. 1.
https://archive.org/details/megalexikontshel01knstuoft

3. Mega Lexicon, Vol. 2.
https://archive.org/details/megalexikontshel02knstuoft

4. Online Mega Lexicon. Dimitrakos.
http://www.projethomere.com/travaux/bib ... akou_9.htm

5. Sophocles. 1914
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Gr ... =en&gbpv=0
Michael J. Miles
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Matthew Longhorn wrote: October 25th, 2020, 5:22 am Why should I not be interested in this.
I was asking this question long before you were on the forum. What benefit does a student who wants to read Koine attain from becoming an expert in grammatical tagging? If your objective is to talk about secondary exegetical literature then then there is plenty of that out there and this forum is a place to talk about it. No reason why you shouldn't take an interest in the secondary exegetical literature. No reason why you shouldn't talk about it. No b-greek moderator is going to stop you from talking about it. I have no intention of suppressing questions.

Someone else asked why you were posting in the beginners forum. That question is sort of tangential to my post. Some students get locked in to the path of becoming perennial second quarter Greek students. They end up doing second quarter greek for their entire lives. I did that for almost a decade.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Matthew Longhorn
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Re: Meta Language

Post by Matthew Longhorn »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote: October 25th, 2020, 12:56 pm I was asking this question long before you were on the forum.
And yet you singled my post out in a dismissive manner as a prime example of the thing you were arguing isn’t worthwhile. Perhaps I have misunderstood what you were trying to do, but you successfully made me pretty angry with the way you communicated
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